Do you think Wal-Mart is evil?
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Sunday, November 27, 2005 20:12
VIEWED: 21203
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http://walmartwatch.com/blog/archives/survivial_of_the_fittest/
This link to a (secret) corporate memo seems to show Wal-Mart as a cold, calculating machine that cares less about its' workers than profits.
I don't really see how that makes them a whole lot different than other corporations...
Aren't all corporations just sharks in the economic ocean? Should we be surprised at Wal-Mart's callousness toward it's long-term employees, their least profitable assets?
Are they evil, or just a cold reality of corporate America?
Chrisisall
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Yes. They are evil.
I can't begin to describe why I think they're evil, but Wal mart is evil.
If Wal-Mart is like all corporations, then all corporations are evil, but I don't think thats the case.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
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Quote:You're not just saying that because the Firefly dvd's you got there had a big scratch on 'em, are ya?
Originally posted by citizen:
I can't begin to describe why I think they're evil, but Wal mart is evil.
Chrisisall
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British, over here we call Wal-Mart ASDA...
My DVD's came from the net. I try not to spend money at ASDA.
But I'd bet money that if scratching FireFly DVD's would make ASDA/Wal-Mart money, they'd do it...
And impregnate the working one's with mind warping subliminal messages too...
How's that for a conspiracy theory?
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Just a cold reality of capitalism. Ergo, capitalism is evil.
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Please don't think they give a shit.
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Quote:If Wal-Mart takes a big enough slam, ya think the American people might stand up against the corporate idea of how America should be used for profit, and that the elderly and infirmed (Useless Ones) should be driven back into the Earth?
Originally posted by SignyM:
Just a cold reality of capitalism. Ergo, capitalism is evil.
Chrisisall
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Either way I love that store.
Keep shiny!
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Quote:Can you not see that Wal-Mart will have a sizeable hand in making Earth-that-was? Is convience and relativly low prices worth the destruction of our society, its' families and our planet (you know, in the long run, I mean...)?
Originally posted by Kaylee4Simon:
Either way I love that store.
Chrisisall, guilty of purchasing the odd dvd there his self
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Okay, I probably deserved this, but I'm going to fight back.
Walmart is evil.
Walmart is not freemarket capitalism,
Walmart is monopolistic capitalism.
I don't support monopolistic capitalism. It might be evil. It's certainly not good. It's pretty close to totalitariam socialism, it lacks the potential check that democratic socialism might have, provided that it didn't cause a break down in the democracy, which it tends to.
Monopoly has infected our capitalist system and threatens to bring it to a neo-socialist society, where every service is totally controlled by one corporation, all of which with govt. ties. Walmart to the best of my knowledge doesn't yet work for govt. but it will, and govt. already works for it.
No, Walmart kills competition. This makes it the equivalent, back to our "capitalism is evolution" thread, walmart is the equivalent of a pandemic viral plague. Its RTL is forfeit :)
Kill it. Kill it soon and fast. Maybe torture it, send it to abu Ghraib.
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Quote:Dreamtrove, thanks for the biggest LOL session I've had in a while...*wiping tears from his eyes*
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Its RTL is forfeit :)
Kill it. Kill it soon and fast. Maybe torture it, send it to abu Ghraib.
Oh my...
Chrisisall
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So. Did anyone actually read the memo, or is this just the normal (for around here)Pavlovian response to capitalism?
I notice no one is mentioning the recommendation for health education, to let their employees (many of whom have never had health insurance before)know there are better and cheaper options for health problems than the emergency room. Or the in-store clinics.
The "hire healthy employees" riff is actually part of overall suggestions for improving the health of employees, such as letting all employees do some physical work, providing store discounts for healthy foods, etc.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Of course there were some constructive suggestions in it, but the underlying tone was similar to a memo about a machine in a factory that has useless or rusting parts, and how they should be oiled or replaced.
Like Signy would say, "Please don't think they give a shit."
Which, by the way, that memo clearly indicates IMO.
Just a monkey in the wrench Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Can you not see that Wal-Mart will have a sizeable hand in making Earth-that-was? Is convience and relativly low prices worth the destruction of our society, its' families and our planet (you know, in the long run, I mean...)?
Originally posted by Kaylee4Simon:
Either way I love that store.
Chrisisall, guilty of purchasing the odd dvd there his self
Walmart is exactly the same as Target, K-Mart, Costco, Sam's Club, and all the other big cut rate low prices mega marts ...
the only reason people are pointing the finger at Walmart is because they are ubiquitous...in the USA they are in every one horse town.
But in fact they are not shutting down competition...
used to be in those small towns you got over-priced goods from some little store that had no competition...those stores couldn't survive having a WalMart open, but they didn't deserve to.
Maybe that is harsh about a lot of places, but I saw the over-priced crapply shoes at the only shoe store in town (which closed after WalMart opened)
and the dreadful little dress shop with no selection (just out of date styles)
and the electronics stores that made you pay through the nose if you didn't want to have to drive over 100 miles to a bigger city.
it is too bad, but WalMart became big and successful because it was needed.
And their low wages? Well I'm not sure what jobs you thought were available in these small towns before, but that shoe store, dress shop, and electronics store were all paying minimum wage with no health insurance at all.
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and buy the 'Serenity' comics published by Dark Horse,
and have you joined the Browncoats yet?
http://browncoats.serenitymovie.com/serenity/?fuseaction=tools.invlink
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Quote:Valid points, thanks for another view, one I'd not thought of.
Originally posted by embers:
And their low wages? Well I'm not sure what jobs you thought were available in these small towns before, but that shoe store, dress shop, and electronics store were all paying minimum wage with no health insurance at all.
I just feel that bigger means worse. Bigger government, bigger corperations, not too good for the average consumer. Short-term price savings can lead to long-term depression and unemployment worldwide. It's like global warming though, won't happen overnight, but giants need to be watched in case they grow too hungry.
Anyway, that's why I asked IF Wal-Mart is evil, I'm still formulating my opinion, with the help of y'all kind folk.
But if you read that memo, you'll be hard pressed to find any positive comments about workers, other than healthy=productive, I just don't feel the love....
Chrisisall
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Chris,
:)
Embers,
Walmart is decidedly different from other stores:
1. THey actively break laws to force competitors out of business, even if they must do so at a loss.
2. THey violate labor laws across the board and run by proxy slave labor camps in third world countries which are surrounded by cyclone fence and barbed wire, and men with machine guns.
3. They have exerted express power to alter content of the merchandise they sell, even when doing so is a violation of free speech.
They are categorically evil and unamerican.
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Huh. I find myself leanin' toward the 'Evil' determination....
Chrisisall
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Quote:That's kind of assuming we only interact with Walmart as consumers. But Walmart has an impact on us as workers (and not just retail shop clerks), citizens, investors and even as animals. (yes, we are animals, and anything that affects the environment affects us.)
Maybe that is harsh about a lot of places, but I saw the over-priced crapply shoes at the only shoe store in town (which closed after WalMart opened) and the dreadful little dress shop with no selection (just out of date styles)
and the electronics stores that made you pay through the nose if you didn't want to have to drive over 100 miles to a bigger city.
---------------------------------
Please don't think they give a shit.
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Wow!
The memo itself is extremely well thought through. They are trying to maximise their health care package to get most bang for buck. They seem to have got the message that prevention is better than a cure, I especially like the healthy eating option.
Your government doesn't provide universal healthcare leaving it to companies to do. Providing healthcare at all is not their core business and is a drain on their resources. I find nothing wrong in the idea that they should try and control this cost rather than just cutting the program once the going gets tough.
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Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
But in fact they are not shutting down competition...
used to be in those small towns you got over-priced goods from some little store that had no competition...those stores couldn't survive having a WalMart open, but they didn't deserve to.
If a large monopoly moves into an area they can drop prices in the new store, in fact make a loss, in order to price out competition, since as a whole the company is still making a profit. A small independent store can't do that, can't afford to make a loss, so of course they close down.
Then up goes the prices when the competition has been stifled.
Dreamtrove:
One little thing, a corporation taking control of the government isn't socialism, in any way shape or form, if anything it's the exact opposite. I'm not a socialist (i.e. I don't want a pure socialist society) but socialism isn't after corporate control of government.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
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Not AGAIN!
If you get him started we'll get his same dumb ass reasoning as in the last 300,000 threads. Any system he doesn't like is a "socialist" system. Since none of us will ever live to see one I'm not willing to argue with him about it AGAIN.
Though I can't resist suggesting the word "oligarchy" could describe the kind of government you would get under megacorp control.....
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EVIL, EVIL, EVIL!!!!!!!!
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Can you not see that Wal-Mart will have a sizeable hand in making Earth-that-was? Is convience and relativly low prices worth the destruction of our society, its' families and our planet (you know, in the long run, I mean...)?
Chrisisall, guilty of purchasing the odd dvd there his self
what two Countires "spawned" the Alliance?
The US, & China.
and right now we(America) have a trade Deficit of $18.5 Billion with China ALONE (this is a full third of our entire trade deficit) . meaning, we are importing 18.5 Billion dollars more merchandise from china than we are selling to them. meanwhile we are running up record budget deficits, and borrowing the money from Whom??
CHINA in large part.
nearly EVERYTHING at walmart( save groceries) is made in china ( granted anymore this is not exclusive to them, more by now the industry standard)
so you see, the path we are on now, the birth of the alliance isn't because the 2 major world powers joined up for the hell of it, or following a war, but cuz they ended up owning our country. they simply did a "Hostile takeover" in corporate terms.
privately i've always thought that a company couldn;t get as large as wal-mart, as fast as they have, whithout some "Assistance"
and by assistance, i mean some one sold their soul.
there by making the company EVIL!!!!!
that and i think their security archways are rigged to steal a little of your soul each time you walk through.... ( ok, maybe that last part is a little fanciful and extreme, But Prove me Wrong!)
Wal-Mart: a Subdivision of Wolfram and Hart
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REDEMPTION!
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Well played Clerks...
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Since you guys opened the subject, I'll show you the Web art I created about this. I personally don't shop there because they choose to buy almost all their manufactured products from China. I'm not one of those people who think it's got to be American made; just not made in China.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Chrisisall, guilty of purchasing the odd dvd there his self
You don't by chance reply to spam too do you?
As far as the memo goes my take was along the lines of FLETCH2’s - a well thought out, detailed assessment by a loyal group of employees looking to understand and address the company’s recent economic trends. In other words - these kinds of memos are not the place to look for corporate “love.” They are about the cold mechanics of keeping a business alive and profitable (certainly good for employees). “Reducing” employees to number groups and group trends are the only way for corporations their size to get a grip on how they are doing and how they might do in the future - it’s just not going to very warm and fuzzy. I guess I’m not sure what is expected or what was so vile - how would a corporate memo look that addressed these issues that also expressed employee love?
What stood out to me more was their concern over just how to deal with health care costs and coverage, both for themselves and for their employees. I see people outraged over gasoline prices but I hear almost nothing (ok, a small whimper) when it comes to the amazing rise of health care over the last 3 years. The memo seems pretty frank about their current position and even addresses critics’ statements, “...in other words, our critics are correct in some of their observations. Specifically, our coverage is expensive for low-income families, and Wal-Mart has a significant percentage of Associates and their children on public assistance.”
They go on to list 9 steps to address those problems, most of which address both reducing costs and helping increase employee health (God forbid the day should come when a sick employee helps the bottom line..).
Hmmm.. AJAXMINOAN: How about Mao-Mart, or Great Wall Mart ?
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Quote:Or at least not made by slaves....
Originally posted by AjaxMinoan:
I'm not one of those people who think it's got to be American made; just not made in China.
I feel like Ash in Evil Dead II;
"How do ya STOP IT??!!"
I can say 'boycott' Chrisisall
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I’m not a big fan of the Wal-Mart. I live on a cliff that over looks a valley that used to be pristine, until they constructed the Wal-Mart. Generally Wal-Mart is over crowded and getting in and out is a huge hassle. There’s only one Wal-Mart among the seemingly thousands that exist within a few miles of my house that I actually like.
As far as the anti-capitalist bent, Wal-Mart is what it is because the costumer base has willingly and happily made it that way. And while I’m not a fan of it, I can see why many people would be, since it provides very reasonably priced goods for people who might not be able to afford to purchase those goods otherwise. Furthermore, Wal-Mart is one of the largest employers of people in the US, and most of Wal-Mart employees are relatively uneducated and unskilled and are offered a much better job opportunity then would otherwise likely be readily available.
So I understand why I don’t like Wal-Mart. I’ve got a high-paying job and the money to shop elsewhere. I don’t understand why the anti-capitalists types don’t like it, unless their “working-class” rhetoric is bullshit, which I imagine it probably is.
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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Quote:I guess I just feel wrong about shopping at a company that perpetuates the use of slave labour overseas. That would be my main beef with them.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don’t understand why the anti-capitalists types don’t like it, unless their “working-class” rhetoric is bullshit, which I imagine it probably is.
Chrisisall, ex slave owner his self
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Quote:
Hmmm.. AJAXMINOAN: How about Mao-Mart, or Great Wall Mart ?
He he. I can't believe there was a time when I didn't want to buy Japanese stuff. Now I think they are some of the best trading partners you can have. I worked at a Toyota imports lot, and so much of the car's parts were made in America, or they were assembled here. You learn this from the import stickers on the doors. They make things of good quiality that last, resulting in less garbage. They also brought hybrid cars to the market, and they respect nature.
When you buy something made in China, you may as well throw it right into the garbage.
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I believe the most reliable cars are in fact Japanese, and a Korean (I think) is way up there too.
Also those 'incredibly reliable' German cars, Audio and BMW, are mid to bottom on the reliability stakes... you just pay more for your (un)reliability...
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
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There's a movie by Robert Greenwald titled "Wal-Mart: The High Cost of Low Price" that documents the effect that Wal-Mart has on the community. For more info, look here:
http://www.walmartmovie.com
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Fletch,
True. But it is open season on Walmart. :)
Citizen, yes it is. I think I explained how. It becomes connecting to govt. and an agent of top down control. The end result is the same: Order
A free market is chaos, with maybe a few artificial constraints to prevent chaos from reverting to order.
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I agree.
Walmart is not only PNAC global
1. Walmart is socialist I'm sorry some people are too dumb to recognize the identical idea (socialism) in corporation form. I won't argue it either, it's too obvious, and I'm not defending my position re: socialism is evil. It kills. End of story.
2. Walmart is China. I will buy from China, I have no problem with it, if and only if the companies in question are abiding by fair free market and labor practices. If you by slave labor goods you support slavery.
3. I liked the Chairman Mart poster.
4. I'm a troll. I'm just bashing Walmart. I don't really care what throwback culture is doing to keep its workers alive long enough for maximum profit.
5. Walmart is very anti-capitalist. It got where it is by repeatedly breaking laws and being allowed to do so, probably by bribing politicians, but that's pure speculaiton.
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Quote:Thanks Haken, there's a lot of stats and info at that site besides info on the documentary.
Originally posted by Haken:
There's a movie by Robert Greenwald titled "Wal-Mart: The High Cost of Low Price" that documents the effect that Wal-Mart has on the community. For more info, look here:
http://www.walmartmovie.com
Hey, how come I don't have a rapid response team with a jet?
Chrisisall, checking Wal-Mart online for reasonably priced jets
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Quote:I knew it.
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
4. I'm a troll. I'm just bashing Walmart.
You're being paid the big bucks by all those little Mom-and-Pop stores to incite unrest concerning our friends running Wal-mart!!!
Chrisisall
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Quote:And that’s the beauty of a free market. Although I don’t think your claim is very fair and a little bit sophomoric, I’ll defend your right not to shop where you wish.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I guess I just feel wrong about shopping at a company that perpetuates the use of slave labour overseas. That would be my main beef with them.
I, like most liberal capitalists, don’t care much for the socialists and quasi-feudal economic systems of some countries, but I also know that blaming it all on Wal-Mart is about as smart as blaming the fishmarket because the oceans are being over-fished. Although, I’m sure that there are probably people in the Wal-Mart’s upper crust that couldn’t care less about the stifling of civil liberties in the countries where their suppliers receive their goods, it doesn’t make them responsible for slavery. I think it is just more complicated.
On a less “social activist” note, when I was growing up Wal-Mart was a cultural Mecca to me. We would often go to Wal-Mart and just look around at all the fishing tackle, sports equipment, or whatever I happen to be involved with at the time. One of my fondest memories is of my grandfather taking me to the Wal-Mart ‘eatery’ to eat fries and drink Coke. It was a place to go where you could meet friends, like the soda shops of the 50’s or the city square even years earlier. And I read somewhere where more then half the couples in the town I lived in met at Wal-Mart.
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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Actually Chris, it's a grudge. I was nearly murdered in back of Walmart at the employees. So it's vengeance, plain and simple.
Actually that's a true story. It's funny in the right lot. I was with a couple of friends and we went ot visit a friend of one of my friends who had just moved in. The local Walmart employees decided we were coniving to steal their wimin, and so decided the proper solution was to kill us with hunting knives a la "Deliverance."
For reference, here's a picture of one of the 'wimin' in kweschun:
Employee
And no, it's not the basis of my walmart opinion, but it sure didn't help their case any. :)
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Quote:Ah, the time when the original owners were running the show. Before it turned to the Dark side.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
when I was growing up Wal-Mart was a cultural Mecca to me. We would often go to Wal-Mart and just look around at all the fishing tackle, sports equipment, or whatever I happen to be involved with at the time. One of my fondest memories is of my grandfather taking me to the Wal-Mart ‘eatery’ to eat fries and drink Coke. It was a place to go where you could meet friends, like the soda shops of the 50’s or the city square even years earlier. And I read somewhere where more then half the couples in the town I lived in met at Wal-Mart.
Chrisisall, a small town boy his self
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Okay, trying again:
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Ack.
My apologies.
I didn't think it would litterally inline post the pic like that, I thought it would keep the litteral URL so those that dared would have to copy and paste.
Now I must do penance
This is what none of them looked like:
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Uh...
I don't know what to say....
Both pictures floored me- for widely different reasons.
Chrisisall*cartoon sparks whirring around head*
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Quote:And God forbid the people running the company get up off their warm leather chairs long enough to actually SEE their stores and how they run and meet the people who work good portions of their lives for them. Warm and fuzzy isn't part of the oversized corporate/computerized culture, where hands-on is only at its' lowest level.
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
“Reducing” employees to number groups and group trends are the only way for corporations their size to get a grip on how they are doing and how they might do in the future - it’s just not going to very warm and fuzzy.
Maybe the size of the corp is it's problem.
Like Steven Segal said in On Deadly Ground (I know, but he said it so well in that movie), "How much is enough?"
Chrisisall sans ponytail
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Size does matter.
Naturally in competition, monopolies are bad. But in general, capitalist enterprises which are specialized always tend to fair better in the truly long term, which I guess lends hope.
Basically, what I see when I see Walmart is the old Soviet GUM store. I would concede that in some ways it's worse than its socialist equivalent because of the labor law abuses, but overall it's at least just as bad as the GUM for the same reasons. In a way, it IS the GUM, just the Chinese GUM for America. And Europe. I'm going to stick with my initial kill it quick plan.
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I agree with chris that Wal-Mart has lost its personal appeal, which I think was pivotal in giving it the edge over major competitors like K-Mart. Wal-Mart had somewhat of a wholesome down-home American-made appeal to it. To a large extent that appearance is being peeled away for a lot of reasons. Part of it is just the bureaucracy of large corporations which tend to be very impersonal and part of it is a politically correct response to attacks, which almost seem political in nature. I think some of it comes from anti-Americanism or resentment of American Capitalism, which often takes the shape of questionable accusations of some kind of American imperialism endemic in American cultural aspects like fast food and super department stores. Wal-Mart seems to be trying to please everyone and that degree acquiescence might be the nail in its coffin. A recent bit of bad publicity traveling around here has a lot of people not very happy with Wal-Mart. Whatever the root causes, Wal-Mart has definitely lost its small-town appeal from my vantage.
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreamtrove:
1. Walmart is socialist I'm sorry some people are too dumb to recognize the identical idea (socialism) in corporation form. I won't argue it either, it's too obvious, and I'm not defending my position re: socialism is evil. It kills. End of story.
Whatever, thanks for the insult, I underlined it so you couldn't tell me you weren't going for the insult.
As for Wal-Mart being Socialist, it's obvious alright:
You don't like Wal-Mart, you don't like Socialism, ergo Wal-Mart is socialist.
Capitalism is evil for the exact same criteria you give for socialism being evil.
I don't think either are evil per-se, and I know Wal-Mart isn't socialist, not unless you redefine socialism to "anything evil".
But whatever, I haven't the energy to get into another flame war with you.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I agree with chris that Wal-Mart has lost its personal appeal, which I think was pivotal in giving it the edge over major competitors like K-Mart.
I doubt that the people who benefit most from Wal-Mart's end focus - lower prices for everyday doodads - see it the same way or even have a clue about their "practices" overseas. They just want one place with a lot of cheap stuff and damn the torpedoes.
Speaking of walking a mile in someone else's shoes, how about figuring out how to get clothes and basic living goods for your 3 kids on $1500 a month, combined take home. Hello Wal-Mart. Isn't there something just a little admirable in their business plan of trying to meet the needs of the lower income?
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
And God forbid the people running the company get up off their warm leather chairs long enough to actually SEE their stores and how they run and meet the people who work good portions of their lives for them. Warm and fuzzy isn't part of the oversized corporate/computerized culture, where hands-on is only at its' lowest level.
I read where Ken Lay was actually pretty good at walking amongst Enron's employees and chatting and pressing the flesh and being the nice guy, well liked even. *Insert recent history here*
Also, I seriously doubt you really believe that all exec types do is warm their leather chairs. If so, please re-read ALL of the memo again - there'a lot of time and hard work in there.
"Hello Real World - Goodbye Expectations!" Euripides, from "The Daily Theogonist."
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Quote:I’m not disagreeing with you. I certainly see the value in it. In fact, I see Wal-Mart as an example of how capitalism provides opportunity for the lower income as well as the higher income. It is an example of functional capitalism. The kind of thing the Marx claimed could never exist. And I think you’re right, that those who do shop there, particularly those with low incomes, probably don’t pay as much attention to the politics as those who don’t shop there. Nonetheless, if the image of Wal-Mart becomes too impersonal or they get an image of being “anti-Christmas,” people will begin to stop shopping there. Having cheap goods will only keep your store in business until your competitors lowers their prices, then you need something else. A good example is K-mart, which has been put out of business all the over the country by Wal-Mart, yet you can generally get merchandize cheaper at K-Mart. When one buys cheap merchandize, one wishes to feel that the seller has their best interests at heart, because otherwise the “you get what you pay for” axiom comes into play. It was service and friendliness that gave Wal-Mart the advantage over K-Mar, not prices. It’s not all just about money; there is some psychology to it. People may not necessarily care about the politics, but if Wal-Mart, through some politically correct policy, begins to distance itself from the culture of the people it is serving, those people may began to view Wal-Mart as impersonal or foreign. And this something Wal-Mart would do well to avoid.
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I doubt that the people who benefit most from Wal-Mart's end focus - lower prices for everyday doodads - see it the same way or even have a clue about their "practices" overseas. They just want one place with a lot of cheap stuff and damn the torpedoes.
Speaking of walking a mile in someone else's shoes, how about figuring out how to get clothes and basic living goods for your 3 kids on $1500 a month, combined take home. Hello Wal-Mart. Isn't there something just a little admirable in their business plan of trying to meet the needs of the lower income?
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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Oh, Citizen, don't be an ass. I told you why walmart is socialist.
It is majorly f^&king offensively insulting that you say " oh DT hates socialism and Walmart and that's why he lies"
Well, I said exactly why I hate walmart because it has all these features of the other thing I hate, socialism, like being part of a big commie plot.
The insult was meant for fletch, not you.
Nothing personal fletch, just the same I just said here. Walmart:socialism parallel is totally valid, via four things 1) the top down angle 2) the no competitition angle,. 3) the Soviet GUM store angle and 4) the communist china angle.
You people already know someone else posted 'bin laden is a socialist' and I shot it down. I'll shoot down any generic 'evil' is a socialist. The label only belongs on socialist evils.
I still don't get why people stick to an ideology that seems clearly responsible for most of the world's genocide. Even today.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
A good example is K-mart, which has been put out of business all the over the country by Wal-Mart, yet you can generally get merchandize cheaper at K-Mart.
I would peg K-Mart's failure with their confusing marketing strategy. Instead of going "rock bottom" like Wal-Mart, they went middling faux upscale with Martha Stewart Linens. That moved them away from low income families to the realm that Target owns (Target has Robert Graves' designed toasters for God sakes! How'd they pull that off?!). K-Mart may be cheaper, but that's not the public's perception by their own doing.
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
When one buys cheap merchandize, one wishes to feel that the seller has their best interests at heart, because otherwise the “you get what you pay for” axiom comes into play.
I politely beg to differ. When one buys cheap merchandise one wants the cheapest friggin' price - period. They'll sort out "quality" once they get it home. If there was "do the right thing" surcharge at the cash register of 10% ("S'cuze me ma'am, this coffee maker was made by Chinese prisoners, would you like to donate an extra $2 dollars to help prevent the US from importing cheap goods made by unfree citizens of foreign countries?") how many would pay it?
"Naw, pass for now, just give me the toaster."
"Sorry, management makes me ask."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreamtrove:
I told you why walmart is socialist.
I'm not really sure you have, I haven't seen a clear reasoning of Socialism wants this, and so does Wal-Mart.
All corporations want a monopoly, it's good for business. Microsoft, the one or two car companies left in the world (you can literally count them on your fingers) are symptoms of this.
What company wouldn't want to charge what it likes safe in the knowledge that the customers won't go anywhere else, because they can't.
This is where capitalism leads, it's not a part of some Socialist Commie pinko plot, It's where capitalism takes us, and I can give you reason after reason why this is so.
Say Socialism is an unworkable system, by all means, it's true. But to say it's evil, and too start apportioning blame to Socialism for things that have nothing to do with it?
Capitalism is also unworkable as a system. Neither Socialism or Capitalism has ever been implemented, you will not find a state that is or was pure Socialist nor pure Capitalist.
Quote:
It is majorly f^&king offensively insulting that you say " oh DT hates socialism and Walmart and that's why he lies"
I never said you lied, I'm sure you believe everything you're saying, ergo not lying. I also think your logic is flawed on this issue.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
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Quote:I don’t remember seeing the Martha Stuart stuff until K-Mart was already pretty much out of business around here, so I think that is an effort by K-Mart to change their base. I think they had pretty much accepted defeat at the hands of Wal-Mart by then.
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I would peg K-Mart's failure with their confusing marketing strategy. Instead of going "rock bottom" like Wal-Mart, they went middling faux upscale with Martha Stewart Linens. That moved them away from low income families to the realm that Target owns (Target has Robert Graves' designed toasters for God sakes! How'd they pull that off?!). K-Mart may be cheaper, but that's not the public's perception by their own doing.
Quote:I think your confusing too different things. I’m not talking about the Chinese human rights issues, which contrary to popular belief, are the fault of the Chinese not Wal-Mart. What I’m saying is that people want to feel good about their purchase, and if they don’t trust the seller they will be inclined to stray. In spite of how it may look, Wal-Mart does not have a monopoly, and competition is actually very fierce. For instance, if you can buy baby clothes at store A and store B at the same price, you’re going to go to the one that is most convenient or that you trust, but the price means nothing, because you’re going to pay the same either way. It doesn’t make any difference to you. You will probably not even be aware that you chose one over the other, but it will felt by both store A and store B, because one will get your business while the other will not.
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I politely beg to differ. When one buys cheap merchandise one wants the cheapest friggin' price - period. They'll sort out "quality" once they get it home. If there was "do the right thing" surcharge at the cash register of 10% ("S'cuze me ma'am, this coffee maker was made by Chinese prisoners, would you like to donate an extra $2 dollars to help prevent the US from importing cheap goods made by unfree citizens of foreign countries?") how many would pay it?
"Naw, pass for now, just give me the toaster."
"Sorry, management makes me ask."
“Because they know all they solda ya was a guaranteed piece of shit. That's all it is. Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for right now, for your sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality item from me.”
- - Tommy Callahan, Callahan Auto Parts.
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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Kmart failed for the same reason all megamarts fail. It's not a long term commercially viable idea. Walmart persists on chronic corruption and illegality. If it were force to abide by all extant laws worldwide it will fold. Someday it's past will catch up with it, and it will crumble, and then we will be griping about RoboMart.
Citizen,
I think I put this forward concisely a few times now. Walmart is the all purpose GUM store. This is something the Soviets and Chinese tried ad nauseum. There are many ways in which it meets this.
But this just explains my abhorance of walmart. It shares the same top down characteristics as socialism, but sure it is mostly a product of capitalism, except to the extent that it's a product of china.
But Capitalism is artificial. There really isn't anything natural about it. At its best, capitalism is an immitation of nature. Unfortunately, as an artificial environment, it must be carefully maintained or it tends towards catastophic failure, and degenerates into either socialism or aristocracy.
One of the major, probably the most major, control that helps free market capitalism be sustained is the anti-trust, which has completely fallen apart lately.
Natural biological evolution typically is much less subject to single species domination because competition is far more fierce, with a trillion or so competitors. A capitalism like this would be much more resistant to Walmarts.
But even so, the human race is evolution's Walmart, and if we don't abide by certian environmentalist constraints, it will head to catastrophic failure as well.
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Still not socialism. Top down authority -- authoritarianism, oligarchy, tyrany --- you can find lots of words for what you're describing and some or all of them apply to Nazi's or Soviets-- but socialism is only about who controls production and under capitalism that isn't the people and in capitalist societies that isnt even the government.
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Okay, I'll concede the point. If Walmart was socialist, it might have a better healthcare plan.
Monopolism perhaps.
But what I hate about Walmart is in line with why I hate socialism. The top down no choice thing. Walmart hasn't killed millions of people, but it is the GUM store.
Also, production here is Communist China, in the case of Walmart.
BTW, Those words don't just define the socialist states of old, Nazis and Soviets, but also all of the present ones, Zimbabwe, Saddam Hussein's Iraq, Syria, North Korea, China, soon Venezuela?
When socialists win an election, and have total dominance, these characterists tend to quickly find their way. Not in a coalition govt. but if the socialists gain a flat out majority. Blair for instance, transforming Britain. Though lately I've heard he's betraying promises of govt.ization, maybe. But then, they often fall by the wayside before creating machinatopia.
I think people get sucked into bad ideas often because they find something they like in them, but the people supporting the one point, often have a whole nightmare slew of them. In time you can convince yourself that you support the other points.
I think lots of people are pro-choice because they are democrats, rather than because they've spent a lot of time trying to figure out when life truly begins.
Similar things could be said about a lot of positions. If socialists offer opposition to corruption, or a plaform of peace, people often follow that, and buy in to the whole line. But, of course, socialism isn't about either of those things. Sometimes people want socialism because they want cheap services. I don't think this is a good reason really. Cheap services would happen if there was adequate competition and deregulation. In extreme situations I could see supporting a subsidy, but only in extreme cases. Usually I think it doesn't need it. Like right at the moment, if I were the govt. I would probably subsidize the Americna auto industry to make a transition to electric cars. I might make this subsidy a loan. But right now, Detroit is about to fold, and it's going to put a million people out of work when it does. But I don't think there would be an industry that would need permanent subsidy.
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The amusing thing about Blair is that he's generally seen as a Thatcherite. He has actually returned some state industries to private hands he has deregulated some areas and a lot of his policies --- his new stance on education for instance can be shown to be things Mrs T wanted in the 1980's.
Britain is a post Thatcherite nation, both of the two major parties are built on that platform except one is generally pro Europe and the other generally anti. You said you liked Michael Howard but he would just as readily followed Bush to war. The surprise wasn't that the Tories would back America with military force but that Labour did. Despite strong links with the Democrats and urgings from Johnson, Harold Wilson didn't deploy British troops in Vietnam for example.
So your general theory that Michael Howard is a traditional Conservative ally is wrong. A Prime Minister Howard asked by Pres. Bush to send troops to Iraq would have been just as happy to do it.
George Galoway the guy you admire so much IS a socialist, he says as much, believes as much which is why he took the traditional left wing stance and voted against the war.
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The Tories role was that of the snivelling Democrats, show no resistance, follow us into hell.
It's true it's a weakpoint in my argument. Galloway has gone to form a socialist party. I still admire the way he stood up to Blair, Clinton and Bush.
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Quote:
which is why he took the traditional left wing stance and voted against the war.
I have to give this my WTF? response.
Sorry.
It's just...
WTF?
I'm aware that a small segment within the political left has a "peace movement."
But the idea that socialists, or the political left are inherently anti-war is absurd.
US history, world history, even british history proves as much.
As an American I'm most familiar with the American side of things, but my general familiarity of the world is Communists, nazis, baathists, the african ANC, and countless individuals I can name are the most potent agents of war in human history, and all hail from the political left, in fact, all above are socialists.
But I want to take an aside to once again remind people, that among these traditional hawks must be counted the Democratic Party.
If anyone is still a pro-peace libertarian and counts themselves as a "democrat" they are delusional:
1. 1820s Democrats, formed by Jackson on a platform of pro-war, against the indians. This was would claim 12 million lives.
2. 1850s Democrats switch focus to pro-slavery, which eventually would lead southern democrats to secede and declare war on the remaining United States. This war would claim one million lives.
Afterwords the Democrats essentially became marginalized until a split in the Republican Party when TR refused to back Taft.
3. 1917, US under Wilson enters into WWI, and directly follows into conflict with Russia in the Russian Civil War. Millions die, US shares some responsibility.
4. 1941, US is attacked by Japan, after the incident, avoidable or not, FDR enter into a truly avoidable mad conflict with the goal of conquering Japan. 15 million die, US shares some responsibility.
5. After dropping two nulear bombs on civilian populations, Truman goes to war in Korea. 2 million people die.
6. 1961, US Under Kennedy invades Cuba, and later also Vietnam. 1963, Johnson drastically upscales conflict with Vietnam. 3 million people die.
In all of these examples, the president in question was a democrat, and the war was a left-on-left war, where both sides were the left side political faction of their country with the exceptions of WWI germany and WWI japan.
I left out WWII because I have to agree with the decision to go to war with Germany in WWII, I would have even liked if we had done in sooner. But I would point out that the bulk of casualties of this war came from the conflict between Germany and Russia, which was another left-on-left conflict.
But lets turn more towards the present.
In Democrats since then, after a 4 year peaceful stint of Carter, we reverted to the Clinton War machine, a series of small wars with heavy casualties, Iraq, Kosovo, Haiti, Somalia, overall uppwards of a million casualties.
While Kosovo might arguably be least death, the others are not, and Clinton's avoidance of the high casualty wars in Rwanda and Croatia were proof enough that he wasn't concerned with preventing genocide, adding to the Kosovo pipeline theory.
Next, we go to the current state of the Democratic Party.
In the last Democratic primary, here's what we had a landslide victory for the most pro-war candidate, who beat the next contender 5:1. This second place contender was Edwards, another pro-war candidate.
The top peace candidate took in 2% of the final vote tally.
By contrast, in the last Republican Primary in 2000, the sole hawk, with his preset plan for war nudged in with 50% while not mentioning his pro-war stance as a platform point. The opposition split 25/25 making a walk for Bush.
PLEASE NOTE:
I'm not saying this to insult democrats, the left, or peace minded people.
I'm trying to make a point here:
The sensible right needs two things in order to regain control of their party:
1. Unity. A solid heads up like Kerry vs. Edwards, or like Reagan vs. Bush Sr. in 1980. (remember at this point in his life, Bush Sr. was anti-neocon, unlike today)
2. Just a few more votes.
For the sensible left to win
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You have no left wing parties so your analysis is flawed. You have two parties financed by business who buy electoral support from two different segments of society. To say that the Democrats are left wing and actually give a damn about poor people outside of an election cycle is like saying that Washington Republicans are God fearing Christians -- they talk the talk but once they have your vote forget it.
The same little history map you held up would look like this in the UK.
WW1 -- Asquith (Liberal)
WW2 -- Chamberlain (Conservative)
Korea -- Atlee (Labour)/Churchill (Conservative)
Suez -- Eden (Conservative)
Cypress -- Macmillian (Conservative)
Vietnam --- Labour was in power and resisted US pressure to become involved in Vietnam.
Falklands War -- Thatcher (Conservative)
Gulf War 1 --- Thatcher (Conservative)
Kosovo --- Blair (Labour)
Afgahnistan -- Blair (Labour)
Iraq -- Blair (Labour)
Like I said our Tony bucks the trend a little. The Liberal party was the direct equivalent of your Democrats.
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Okay, if the democrats don't fit your definition of liberal, and none of the socialists states do, then your fantasy liberal doesn't exist.
I'm not saying conservatives don't fight war, but the idea that the left is somehow peaceful is again a pure fantasy.
Sure, there were things like Gulf War I, or the spanish american war. But let me add this.
So recently, you'd say that your wars have been conservatives, until blair.
But then you're wars weren't really that big.
Excluding war with germany, wwii, in which britain could hardly be called the aggressor. I think the war against the nazis everyone is off the hook. I let FDR, a liberal democrat, off the hook for it.
America, being under left rule (america's left, which btw, meshes with the world's left) has fought much bigger wars. Russia, China, as left states have been almost constantly at war, or in support of a war abroad.
But I didn't intend to start a partisan bicker.
Just putting forth that anti-war was not a good reason to be leftist. It isn't a reason to be leftist at all.
That would be like being a right winger because you wanted to help poor people. Nothing wrong with helping poor people, but if that was your main objective, right wing philosophy, which lends itself much more to a sink or swim sort of deal, would probably not be the first choice. Similarly, leftist ideals of universal equality lead directly to conflict and global militarism, and so if overall peace and prosperity was your main goal, being a leftist wouldn't support that goal or make logical sense.
I think there are left leaning corporations. Not socialist of course, because socialism is an anathema. But true, our presidential tickets are pretty corrupt as you say, but there is more to the parties than that. Generally, democrats create large scale social programs that at least aim to help poor people.
On the right, it's not fair to apply the christian label to us as a lot. Until recently, chrisianity, even christian fundementalism wasn't solidly right. The GOP has built itself much more firmly on being pro-business.
I readily admit that to say the GOP admin. in the white house today is pro-business would be even more absurd than to say they are fundamentalist christians. Well, fundamentalist theocrats, since many of them are jewish, and quite openly so, it would be wrong to say they claim to be chrsitians.
But still and all, you have a point.
However. If we did have actual socialism, world history indicates we might have even bloodier wars. Usually someone else started the war, and America came ot the party. Iraq is the only exception I can think off-hand since the 19 century wars.
Here are my principle political concerns:
Environmentalism
Peace
Pro-Business
Individual rights
Given these, with about equal weight to all, I would pretty clearly be better off as a republican, historically speaking.
I grant that if I just said
Environmentalism
then it would be much more of a toss up.
But traditionally, Bush excluded, the GOP is more likely to give me:
Peace
Individual rights
And it is much much more like to give me
Pro-Business
So, well there it is.
It would pain me to think that someone was on the left because they wanted peace, but I think it is so. I would hope that some of those people could help us over here on the right who want peace, by adding to our numbers, making a majority. That's the only way I can see of having peace as a platform in the whitehouse. It's just not going to happen on the democratic side of things, and pro-peace voters should realize this.
To be fair, I would suspect there are probably pro-economic equality christians who vote on the right because of religion who also delusional.
Finally,
The center is whoever is in the middle, regardless of where that stand is. I think when the entirety of the world's political spectrum is taken into account, the most overall rightwing country is India, the most overall leftwing country is China, the rest of us fall inbetween, and America is pret
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Wal-mart = Zerca Corp. (Anyone who's a Star Wars Junky, or who has played KOTOR knows what I'm talking about)
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My point wasn't that Republicans WHERE God fearing Christian zealots it was that they pandered to that constituency come election time without ever truely delivering. Democrats seem to throw the poor a bone and then wait for them to vote. As George Calin says the dumb F**** really believe that this millionaire and his friends actually care about poor people? It's corrupt bullshit.
In my country I used to know exactly where the parties stand.
Conservatives
Pro Law and Order
Pro Defence
Pro Business
Lower Tax
Anti local government (because if you are a tax cutter but you need big central government for L&O and defence you make cuts elsewhere)
Unilateralist
Not fond of Federal Europe
Labour
Pro disarmament
Pro Unions
Pro services (and by default not tax cutters)
Pro local government
Multilateralist
Slightly pro Europe (though that topic ebbs and flows in both parties)
So a Tory will pay for tax cuts by slashing services while keeping high defence spending sacrosant. Labour will pay for services by raising taxes and/or cutting defence.
This is part of the reason we tend to get involved militarily when a Tory government is in power, because it's hard to justify spending on a military you don't use.
Neither of these parties is for small (central) government -- the current civil service is a Tory invention and the kinds of programs Labour favours needs a big bureaucracy to run it.
Neither is overly concerned with the kinds of civil liberties Americans find so vexing. We absolutely know that our government spies on us and does all kinds of naughty things both home and abroad irrespective of who is in power.
Oh and neither party is socialist -- though one still claims to be. Interestingly the left wing of the Tory party is now to the left of the Blairite front bench on a lot of issues.
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Sure it's corrupt, but mostly Clinton and Bush. Before that, and also in other offices, it is usually the case.
If your right is truly a warmonger, I don't know that much about british politics as I said, then it might explain why your country is more left.
The EU is an appalling idea. If you were to ask me for a referendum on the USA, there is no way I would vote for it. I don't think there's any way it would pass a vote by the general public. The independent nation of New York would be so vastly superior that there really would be no competition. Add to that the fact that support for a federal govt. which gives just about exactly nothing back and takes 1/2 of everyone's paycheck, I'd say it's no contest.
The situation for such a referendum in the great lake states would be just as bad, new england it would be worse, and pacific coast states worst of all. The strongest support would come from the red states, but the deep south is so heavily nationalistic, and that would be confederate nationalism, not American really, that it would fail there as well. It would definitely lose Florida and Texas, and thus the United States would come to an end. America would pretty much continue to function as it always had, only without a federal govt.
Given what a disaster it's been here, the idea the Europe would copy that boggles the mind. And that's a best case scenario, that the EU becomes like the US Federal govt. Worst case of course is that it becomes the new Soviet Union.
Here of course it's not so clear what's left and what's right.
At the moment, we have a supposedly conservative president who's instituting the largest social program of all time in him new medicare package, and he's following a liberal who slashed such programs across the board.
Our "conservative" president actually said in a recent speech that one of the reasons he's fighting this war is women's rights. Everything, lately is out the window.
So when I try to define conservatism, I have to look back at the pre-Reagan era, before neocons and corrupt corporates really got a hold on things Nixon, Eisenhower, Coolidge, T.Roosevelt, and so on back John Quincy Adams. Hoover is obviously a disaster and completely skipable :)
When I look at Bush, Clinton, I see nothing but liberals. It's possible I may be willing to compromise, as they aren't anything. There's a lot of corruption there. I think there's some genuine socialist intentions there in the PNAC crowd, I just disagree with the goal, but I don't think they're completely insincere. I'm not sure Clinton was completely insincere, I think he was just wrong. I think Bush is completely insincere.
Conservatives believe, in this country
1. Limited government
2. Free market capitalism. Pro-Business.
3. Isolationist foreign policy
4. Meritocracy
5. The right of every group to more or less set its own rules and live by them
Liberals believe
1. Big Govt. particularly for two purposes: Social support systems and public labor projects.
2. Restraints on free trade, tarriffs, taxes, generally things which might increase federal revenue at the expense of business.
3. Interventionist military policy, hopefully on the side of the downtrodden. Attempts to change other nations rules to fit a western model.
4. Economic Parity
5. A "correct" set of rules of social behavior that everyone should abide by.
In general, I would shorted these to a simple two lines
Liberals believe in universal equality
Conservatives believe in preservation of a way of life.
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Quote:A more cynical take could be:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Liberals believe in universal equality
Conservatives believe in preservation of a way of life.
Liberals want to set criminals free to rape and pillage
Conservatives want people killed so we can have coffee and oil
Chrisisall
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Calling Wal-Mart Socialist is like saying my house is a dictatorship.
Also, the GUM store was state-owned, state-run and state-supplied. Wal-Mart is none of the above. And the GUM store was a bazaar of individual shops, as such it doesn’t even resemble Wal-Mart, instead it would look far more like a mall.
The distinction between the British and the American political parties is an interesting one. In general, the Tories loosely compare to the Republicans and Labour loosely compares to the Democrats, although Labour is generally, I think, much further to the Left then the Democrats generally appear, but I think that is changing. There has been considerable mix up lately and I wouldn’t care to try to figure it out where it stands.
As for the American parties, there is a common misconception with the characterizations of the two major American parties that they are almost intrinsically Right-wing or Left-wing as these terms are defined today. The terms Right and Left are simply a dichotomy. To describe a political party you have to be careful to define these terms, otherwise they are meaningless.
Republicans have not always, nor necessarily, been the party of American Conservatism, in fact prior to the 1960’s this was probably a description that would have more accurately characterized many Democrats. These Rockefeller Republicans, as they are sometimes called, referred to themselves as “liberals,” a term I still use and identify with today, but one that has become bastardized somewhat. A liberal was someone who believed in small decentralized government and private business, because these were ideas that were believed to facilitate a free or unregulated lifestyle. Liberals (lower case ‘L’) were likely to be somewhat socially liberal, but the Republican party had been socially liberal going all the way back to its creation on a anti-slavery platform. The social liberalism of Republicans was more a “couldn’t care as long as I get rich or no one bothers me” sort of philosophy. However, in spite of the apparent similarities the modern Left would have had a very hard time identifying with these Republicans. They would not have been likely to champion for the right to abortion or gay rights and generally held a somewhat realpolitick view on national defense and foreign policy.
Likewise prior to the 1960’s a Conservative was likely to be a Democrat. It was the Democrats, not the Republicans, who opposed the Civil Rights Bill and most, if not all, proponents of segregation were Democrats. The pre-60s democrats were true social Conservatives holding strongly to the religious, aristocratic and nationalistic philosophies that characterized much of American thought during the 19th century. Although it would not have been accurate to characterize them as “Left-wing,” the Democrats did considered themselves to be the champions of the working class and poor. Not Marxist, but probably very Keynesian.
This shift in politics is sometimes attributed to Goldwater, but the truth is that it was probably a long time coming and much larger in scope then any one person could have affected. This realignment basically merged the two parties and created two new amalgamated parties. Pro-business but religion Republicans. Pro-government but liberal Democrats.
There is a new shift in politics that has affected the Democrats, so far. The Democrats of today have moved excruciatingly close to becoming a true Left-wing party in the flavor of those generally only seen in Europe. They seem to be adopting ideas about political and economic reform that would have been unimaginable even 20 years ago. Their absolutist support for a right to abortion is one example. This is sometimes characterized as the Postmodern Left, although this is perhaps misleading. It refers to the “re-emergence” of a 1960s style Left-wing intelligentsia. Although this is not a re-emergence per se, since the Democrats were never that far Left in the 1960s. In reality it is the maturing of the “hippy” movement, which has found roots
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Finn
Never been to your house, but if you say so.
No, the State is Walmart owned.
I didn't really see any shif tin the GOP until reagan, and then it was more of a corrupt global socialist shift, which has since inceased exponentially.
I don't think that issue switches in the GOP and Democratic parties represent total switches of position. FDR was pretty much the same kind of democrat as Carter, Coolidge was basically the same sort of Republican as Ford, so it's hard for me to credit that between 1925 and 1975 there was an essential reverse of parties.
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As ever, very interesting, Finn.
You should get paid for this.
Chrisisall
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I have mixed feelings about Wal-Mart, but I do not feel like it is any more evil than any other corporation. I come from a small town with a Wal-Mart. Literally two grocery stores, two drug stores, 3 or 4 small clothing stores, and a Dairy delite. Except for one of the clothing stores all of the others are still open, and the one that closed sold over priced clothing that small town folks couldn't afford anyway. There are many children wearing cute affordable Wal-Mart clothing in our school system that wouldn't have been able to afford the clothing from anywhere else. Living some ways from a city, the Wal-Mart was a godsend for many everyday things that a family needed. It was one of the major poviders of jobs for kids in the town. It provided scholarships opportunities for many kids that couldn't afford to go to school, as well as an opportunity to transfer jobs to a store close to a university if one needed work while getting an education. My sister worked at Wal-Mart briefly, and when she was in an accident the management came out to our house with plates, cups, soda, and supplies to help my family out. Besides educational donations, Wal-Mart has donated a large sum of money to such natural disasters as Katrina, etc. My local Wal-Mart is not a supercenter, but we have two supercenters in towns an hour to two hours away. They are heavily invested in finding missing children. Every year they fund workshops in their stores and local malls to educate parents and children about abduction and to give out id photos and fingerprints. When a local child went missing they provided fliers and other supplies to help in the search. I could probably go on naming more if I wanted to. These are just off the top of my head. Right now I live across from a supercenter in a bigger town while attending school. Although I don't like the supercenter as much as the regular Wal-Mart of my hometown, I don't think that it is evil. I'll shop there. It's affordable and convenient, and if it doesn't have a sauce or ice cream that I want (Wal-Mart does tend to stock a lot of one brand) I go to the Kroger. Just like I go to the Kroger if I don't want to wait in a long line. Or I will go to Target, K-Mart, or even Lowes. That is capitalism. There are choices out there. There are different stores. One doesn't have to go to Wal-Mart as many people on this topic have chosen not to do. It is a competative market. Wal-mart may lose customers as if becomes more impersonal (seems some people here would be in this category), and if so, it will have to change to compete with newer stores. So, do I think that Wal-Mart is evil? No. Nor do I think that it is the epitome of good. It's just a store to patronage as I feel best, and as I feel it's worth my time and money.
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Wow, Finn, I agree pretty much completely!
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you Beeeer Milkshakes!
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auxarc, I'm glad that your Wal-Mart experience is a good one. Midwest and small-towns definitly need that kind of store. Now if Wal-Mart would just try not to purchase their product from questionable sources, we'd (and they'd) have it made!
Chrisisall
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Finn, nice analysis.
DT, I think there are a few things that need to be understood.
First the opposite of conservative is not liberal but progressive. The opposite of liberal is not conservative but authoritarian. There are conservative libertarians that are also fiscal conservatives, there are progressives that are authoritarian.
Second, just because a UK party calls itself "Conservative" doesnt mean that they sign up for exactly the same policies that an American conservative would recognise. Like I said before a Russian conservative is a hard line communist who dreams of a return of the Soviet Union.
The way I see it is this. A conservative is someone who is either content with the current reality or who looks back at some past time as his country's heyday. You seem to like 1955 but I know other US conservatives that prefer 1905 (or any time before the Federal Income tax) there are others that favour that Jeffersonian rural ideal that never did exist. In any case they cherry pick their "ideal moment" from a country's good times, you wont find a conservative who really wants the days of the Depression back or thinks the US was perfect during the Civil War.
British Conservatives are not war mongers but they were the party of Empire. The often lampooned traditional Tory voter "angry of Surrey" is a retired Indian Army major who writes letters to the Telegraph complaining about long haired kids in the street and how a few years in the army will sort them out. To a British conservative the heyday was back in the 1920's sometime when teh Empire was at its height, people were more polite and reverential to their betters and the Royal Navy ruled the waves. It was never hard to justify enhanced defence spending to this group. We are an interventionist nation --- that is how you build an Empire -- so if someone messes with you then you deal with them by whatever means military or covert.
By contrast the British left distrusts the military because previous governments have used it against their own people. Traditionally they are anti colonial and of the belief that although you can help other countries solve their problems it is not your place to play world policeman.
Consequently in peace time Labour traditionally cuts defence in favour of social programs. When the Tory's get back in power they cut social programs for defence. Since both sides want to convince the voting public of the "wiseness" of these choices, Labour highlights the improvement in public services under their administration, Conservatives highlight advances in crime prevention and security. A good way to highlight the wiseness of defence spending is to actually use the military operationally.
Blair is a confusion. He's spent more on pure military R&D than any of his immediate predecessors of either party. He is happily planing the construction of career battle groups, giving Britain it's first big jet careers since the early 1970's it's likely he will replace the Trident nuclear submarine fleet which Labour opposed building back in the 1980's.
If you think that Bush goes against the standard Republican type towards the left (which I question but that's your opinion) Blair has moved harder to the right than any previous Labour leader. In fact he is to the right of Howard in a lot of instances.
Your comments about the Federal government and the EU. I assume you know that the State of New York was far from convinced about adopting the US Constitution precisely because of potential states rights issues. In fact the Federalist papers exist because the Federal consitition was such a hard sell in NY. If you read Federalist and then look at opinions over the EU constitution it is exactly the same arguments 200+ years later. The irony I find in all this is that some of teh more political boards I'm on have US Neocon types cat calling because the EU can't get it's act together, while most of the US conservatives I know would have been happier had the US stayed a looser confederation than it is now.
The problem with the EU is that it is
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Fletch,
A couple things.
I'm kind of busy lately, so if you post too much in an argument, you win, because it might be a while before I have time to read it all.
Second, just because you say it, doesn't make it so. Progressive conservative movements have existed in the pass, there was for instand the Progressive party, in the early 20th c.
In recent years the term 'progressive' was co-opted by left wing fringe groups. This doesn't mean that it's correct. Often these groups represnt ideas which neither represent progress nor change.
There have been no end of liberal-authoritarian movements, so that counterpoint is out.
Since there was never a liberal-conservative movement, the two are fairly mutually exclusive. Pretty much the entire world views them as opposites.
Also, it's well known that the opposite of authoritarian is libertarian, which has no relation to liberal.
Here's the mistake many people make: Linguistic roots often share little meaning similarity, and generally are different applications of like qualities. Both words are derived from latin words that have distinct different meanings.
Libertarian is derived of course from liberty, which is derived from the latin word "Liber" meaning "Free."
Liberal is derived directly from the latin word "Liberalis" meaning "Generous."
The two are not related specifically to one another. Liberal, therefore is not directly related to freedom, as in personal rights, it is only related free in the context that generous means to give freely, or giving without restraint.
Everything in liberal philosophy today is very much in line with this concept of generosity.
Conservative is from conserve, which in turn is from the latin "conservare" meaning to keep or preserve. In relation to use, it is to give or use sparingly, to use with caution.
That which means, at it's core, to give or use sparingly is undeniably the opposite of to give generously.
By this base, it is totally correct to say "President Bush has a liberal energy policy."
Social Conservatism applies this concept of preservation to society, resisting social change.
Social liberalism by contrast would be to be generous with social change.
I am simply making these points to make sure that it understood. I, myself, am both a social conservative and a resource and fiscal conservative, but they are not the same thing.
Clinton was pretty much a fiscal conservative but social liberal. Bush is pretty much a fiscal liberal and a social conservative.
But these labels, which accurately describe key parts of their political character, do not define all of them. Cinton and Bush, are, for example, both social global militarists.
Many positions that politicians and their parties may take may not take aren't tied to this left/right dichotomy.
In America, during my lifetime, pro-police anti-crime has largely been a democratic party agenda. This is probably becuase policeman's unions are largely democratic party supporters, probably because they operate out of cities, and urban society is more pro-democrat. Rural society is more republican. A county by country map of the 2004 election strongly backs up this idea. Almost all cities are blue, almost all countryside is red, in America.
Your breakdown does make sense, and if such military spending isn't totally consistant with the ideas of conservatism, nobody's perfect.
I will concede something here.
Bush is, to me, not the issue. PNAC is the issue, and they are born of the political far left intellectual elite of a few ivy league left wing education political philosophical groups.
I use this to attack Bush as a left wing divergent, because it's ideologically easier. Consevatives are less likely to be afraid of someone being "too conservative" than of someone being a liberal mole.
I personally, don't think the Bush Admin is in any way conservative, really, in practice, except from a christian extremist perspective. But this is a voter draw. Bush's keystone policies are all pretty liberally based.
I would see B
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Actually I don't feel threatened by either. In many ways Mrs Thatcher was one of the most progressive Prime Minister's in British history. She wasn't moping over lost Empire or wishing for it to be 1922 again, she wanted to go forwards. In fact in a lot of ways she threatened Conservitism more than anything else. Tory PM's have often been minor sons of the nobility, she was a green grocers daughter from Lincolnshire. In the end she wasn't ousted by a popular vote in a free election but by back halls manouvers by Tory grandees.
Politically "Tony" is probably closer to me than any previous Labour leader, I'm generally supportive of a lot of initiatives. If anything distresses me it is that the Tory party hasn't got off of it's ass and made a go of being an opposition. Labour were useless in the 1980's and that lack of effective opposition let the Tory leadership get lazy and sloppy. Like you say competition for ideas is a good thing, it makes good ideas better and shows bad ones up for what they are. Politically I like Blair but for the health of our Democracy I prefer there to be two clear cut and equally defended possitions and that isn't the case.
Thatcher's Tory's and Blairs New Labour are both progressive, unilateral, military leaning parties. My Conservative friends call him "Thatcher lite" and say he stole her handbag. In any case we need competition on ideas.
And you are wrong on "Liberal" please stop redefining the language to fit with your political agenda. From the Oxford English Dictionary...
liberal
• adjective 1 willing to respect and accept behaviour or opinions different from one’s own. 2 (of a society, law, etc.) favourable to individual rights and freedoms. 3 (in a political context) favouring individual liberty, free trade, and moderate reform. 4 (Liberal) (in the UK) relating to the Liberal Democrat party. 5 (especially of an interpretation of a law) not strictly literal. 6 given, used, or giving in generous amounts. 7 (of education) concerned with broadening general knowledge and experience.
• noun 1 a person of liberal views. 2 (Liberal) (in the UK) a Liberal Democrat.
— DERIVATIVES liberalism noun liberality noun liberally adverb.
— ORIGIN originally meaning suitable for a free man: from Latin liberalis, from liber ‘free man’.
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Not fulfilling a political agenda here. Heard the term described this way all my life. Liberalis IS the root word of liberal. The extension made here, even if it's in the oed, is supposition. The relation is not directly from liber, as it is in libertarian.
Maybe in britain a liberal is a libertarian, in the united states this is neither in practice nor in usage of the word in any way true. Libertarians are generally viewed as right of center, but never view strictly as a synonym for liberal.
Continuing with my definition, which I learned in school, and has never been questioned or opposed in my 36 years on this planet, until now, by you, and is supported by american sources. (webster, I just checked, lists your definition first, under the heading "archaic" and then continues with mine.)
Bear in mind that to us, here in America, whether you think our culture is totally invalid or not, liberals have been diametrically opposed to personal liberty for a couple of centuries now, so I am not about to concede this point. I would soon concede that by your definition, America essentially has no liberals.
To move on. Liberal. When used well, generously gives so as to bring equality. Liberals, in America, if you want me to dub them a new word, Ameriliberals, or something, I mean largely democrats, and left wing fringe parties, the american left of the american center.
The American Liberals seek to bring about equality. It is there driving force, their raison d'etre. It is not to increase indidual liberty, which they never even supported. The supporters of individual liberty are libertarians.
American Conservatives seek to conserve the American way of life, and use resources sparingly.
Used well, American Liberalism creates equality through generosity. Used poorly, it leads to corruption and theft.
Conservatism, used well, preserves a way of life and the plurality of resources. Used poorly, it is miserly and selfish.
So, Bush is a bad fiscal liberal. Clinton was a sometimes bad and a sometimes good fiscal conservative.
I'm angry because it's possible that Americans have twisted your language, and for that I apologize. But what I'm most angry about is the insinuation. I certainly didn't try to redefine the words here. I think, no, I'm certain, that these are the applied definitions of these words, and that they are 100% consistant with their latin roots. The idea that liberal means libertarian is not consistant with it's latin roots, and at least in America is not commonly used in that way.
I thought I was just setting the record straight here. I think we might have a problem in communication. I don't want to argue with the OED, even if I do think it is a liberal construction, and is bound to look more friendly on the word liberal. But all academia is pretty much a liberal construction.
Liberalis means generous. it's only direct connection to liber is that it means to give freely.
Liber was originally the roman god of wine and vineyards. If you want to track things back that far. Saying that liberal is personal freedom is no more accurate than saying that liberal is alcoholic.
So...
All aspersions aside, I'm not wrong.
I would be open to the posibility that in England you may use this word to mean what we mean when we say libertarian. If this is so, then we may have more in common then I thought.
Where do the lib dems stand on the four issues I mentioned, conservation, fiscal policy, libertarianism, and militarism ?
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Both liberal and libertarian share the same Latin root. The word Liber was a title granted to free men in the Roman world. Liberalis is simply the adjective of liber, therefore it essentially means “of or relating to liber.” “Generous” is a connotation of Liberalis, not a definition. The association comes by way of another Latin word which was also a title of freedmen in the Roman world: ingenui. “Generous” is a connotation of liberalis because liberalis is the adjective of both liber and ingenui. So essentially, in its most generally definition, liberalis means of or relating to liber et ingenui.
Rome had two different types of freedmen or liberi, called the libertini and the ingenui. Both were free men under Roman law, but there was a distinction made between men who were born free (ingenui) and men who become free (libertini), and traditionally this line was loosely drawn along lines of wealth and social status. We know this because the word patricii was once synonymous with ingenui. (If you look up the word “generous” in the dictionary, you’ll see that it used to mean “highborn.”)
In a side note, the distinction between these two types of freedmen is important to understand the significance of the American concept of Liberty and why it was so different compared to previous ideas of Liberty that had been instituted throughout the classical world and even later in such nations as England for instance with induction of the Magna Carta. Liberty had always been a function of birth. In other words, a person was not guaranteed freedom unless they were born free (assuming they met what ever other social criteria, such as being male, for instance.) Otherwise, someone had to become free. This was a concept that was inherent in all forms of political liberty until the American concept of liberty created the inalienable right of freedom, which is that, presumably, for the first time in civilized history a nation had made the concept of liberty independent of birth. Now of course in a somewhat ironic twist, it would be many years before the US actually give up its own aristocratic practices, but nonetheless the Declaration of Independence remains the first document to declare freedom as independent of birth, and therefore “liberty” and not “generous” becomes the concept of freedom.
Although, some concepts of contemporary political freedom, such as socialism, are based on the idea of a “generous” kind of freedom, instead of a “liberal” kind of freedom. So aristocracy is still alive and well in our world and thriving in philosophies of the far Left, as much as the Left might want to deny that sometimes.
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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Wow, what an excellent reply!
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DT:
OED isn't "liberal" unless you just want to characterise my whole country and language as being part of the "conspiracy"
I'm sure that if we used "Libertarian" in place of "pedophile" for long enough people might take it to mean the same thing, or Liberals might choose to pretend their name had a different Latin root. False association, the changing of meanings of words, the manipulation of language to demonize and illigitimise ideas that you have no interlectual defence for is an old and well known trick of propagandists.
Read 1984.. redefinition of the meaning of words is the first part of manipulating truth.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
auxarc, I'm glad that your Wal-Mart experience is a good one. Midwest and small-towns definitly need that kind of store. Now if Wal-Mart would just try not to purchase their product from questionable sources, we'd (and they'd) have it made!
Chrisisall
Thank you. I felt like Wal-Mart deserved some credit where it was due. It has helped both my family and my hometown-although I'm sure it helps that most of the employees do come from the local community and know each other by name (think Mayberry
). That being said, you are completely right about Wal-Mart's purchasing practices. Wal-Mart's good deeds shouldn't negate it's more questionable business practices. Both should be acknowledged so that the good can be encouraged and the not so good deterred.
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Walmart IS evil, or at least partly evil. I worked there two years ago, and I'll never step foot in one again.
"I aim to misbehave."
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Fletch,
I get it. not the pedophile thing. yuck. Thw two liberal definition thing.
I was saying etymologically, there was nothing wrong with liberal=alcoholic if its root is liber, which it's not.
But it's much different.
Think about it this way:
American political tradition is older than these words, as of course is british. So rather than purely copying the term, generations of American intellectuals studied the laguage, and applied the definitions of the words consistant with their latin roots as they understood them.
Independently the brits did the same thing.
The secret here seems to be that despite surface similarities, our two political systems are quite different.
It's not that "Liberal" and "Conservative" have been demonized in America, which they undoubtedly have, but that they are applies differently by their advocates here than they would be in britain.
I read several references to the idea that lib dems were actually conservative, that is, from an American perspective. A liberal democrat, in America, would mean someone like Teddy Kennedy or John Kerry.
To the people who support liberal politics in America, it's not a label slung on the left by the right, it's an ideology openly embraced. It is based not on personal freedom, that would be called libertarian (NOTE this is NOT spin, it has nothing to do with spin, people in America who believe in personal freedom call THEMSELVES libertarians, people in America who believe in a generous fiscal policy call THEMSELVES liberals)
A Liberal, American style, believes:
Strong support for govt. services and the social safety-net. Public works and a generous spending policy, most often relying on heavier taxes for the wealth and for industry, in exchange for generous services aimed at establishing universal equality.
This position, btw, is not evil, it's a position I don't happen to hold. The people who do hold it call themselves liberals.
Conservatives, American style, believe:
Limited govt. and support for a free market. Reduce taxes and spending to the minimum level necessary to sustain society while giving greater indpendence to state, groups and individuals, in order to protect preservqation of a way of life.
What I'm getting is that this is NOT what they mean in Britain. I'd like to head perhaps a more level explanation than you rant against libertarians. When I said liberal could just as easily be alcoholic as free, I meant it was equally close, as in not very, etymologically. Neither one means pedophile even remotely so I'm not sure where that came from.
So I was defending the use of "liberal" as Americans use it, to mean generous, which was probably derived by left leaning intellectuals and not right wing spinsters. If the word as you indicated means somethign different in England, it wouldn't be the first time we used the same word to mean two different things. It would also imply that a liberal democrat in the UK might not have that much in common with ted kennedy and john kerry.
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Finn,
The root of liberal, is liberalis, not liber.
Actually I looked liberalis up in a couple of online latin dictionaries, and they both defined it as "generous" and not at all as "free."
I then went and looked up the online dictionary definitions of all of the derivative words listed in the previous post by fletch, and they all meant generous.
Here's the problem with your argument: It says nothing about liberal. You make an excellent case for Liberty means free. I don't doubt that. I never said it didn't. Hence, its derivative political philosophy of freedom: Libertarian.
However. And please note this:
Liberal was already in widespread use as a word before it came into politics, and it was a word meaning generous. So it was not, on the spot, derived from the similar sounding and similarly rooted word "liberty." Liberal, from liberalis, may as you say refer to the generous nature of freedom, but it is just as logical that it is derived directly form the roman god Liber, since generosity was one of his telltale traits.
No liberal, of whom I know quite a few, over the years probably thousands, has ever said to me that the root of their philosophy is freedom. Many many have said it is generosity.
Generosity is not an evil trait, but to say, at least in American useage, that libaral means free instead of generous, is just plain inncorrect.
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Quote:That’s a strawman. Liberalis describes liber. It is the adjective of liber. It’s connation as generous is lexical not denotative. Liberalis literally means “of liber.” Liberalis is not even a root; it’s a declined form of liber. Liber is the root.
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Finn,
The root of liberal, is liberalis, not liber.
From the online Latin dictionary at the University of Notre Dame:
liberalis -e [[]of freedom; worthy of a free man , gentlemanlike, courteous, generous[]]; adv. liberaliter.
http://catholic.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/lookup.pl?stem=liber&ending=
As such liber is the root of liberalis, and therefore liber is the root of liberal. The dictionary says exactly that:
From the online Merriam-Webster dictionary:
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin liberalis suitable for a freeman, generous, from liber free;
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/liberal
I don’t necessarily disagree with your point of view. Clearly the Left does seem to operate on a very aristocratic form of freedom in which the concept of freedom is essentially something that is granted to the masses through the generosity of the state. I don’t agree with that form of freedom. I think freedom begins and ends, more or less, with ones own personal responsibility, not entitlements. However that doesn’t mean that I’m going to buy this story that liberal is derived from liberalis and not liber, which is complete nonsense. It’s a complete misunderstanding of the grammar of the Latin word. Liberty, liberal, libertine and libertarian are all derived from the Latin root liber. That the word Liberal was in wide use as meaning “generous” lacks historical context. As I described above the concept of an inalienable right to freedom is something that is only a few hundred years old, prior to that freedom was always understood in the context of aristocracy. Prior to 1776 there was no concept of liberty that was independent of aristocracy.
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Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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My point was that, to the best of my understanding, "liberal" as a word came into english as generous, not free. Certainly in the US, the world, even outside of, and before being used in politics, it was used to mean generous as it still is.
To say that liberal is the believe in individual freedom is not only patently false, it's a politicization directly aimed at convincing firefly fans that they are already liberals. The reality is almost 180 degrees away. Liberal govts. are anti-individual liberty, because they are so strongly pro-govt.
Liberal, when applied to politics is not just generously giving freedom, it is more spefically generously giving services. Since interest in personal civil liberties is one of the main reasons I became a conservative, I'm very aware of how NOT pro-presonal freedom the political left and its liberals are.
If they were honest about it, and willingly admitted that they wanted to help poor people, I wouldn't oppose that as readily. I would say: okay, let's find a way to help poor people that doesn't bankrupt business, halt progress, reward out of control population growth, encourage laziness and create overbearing government control. I am a member of the working poor. I certainly am familiar with the problems of our society and the way it is hurting the little guy. But I'm not about to hand over all of my freedom to the govt. in hopes that it will somehow make it better. I think this would not only be naive, but that the whole thing is more of a political ploy used by the leaders of left to both get the consciencious to support them, and to get the poor to hand over power. I think the Democrats have done this routinely, and I think Bush is doing it right now with his medicare plan.
This discussion, and the reason it angers me, is that it is attempting to spin the word liberal a new meaning. The word liberal as a very definite well defined meaning, and everyone uses it daily with no connection to politics, and it is not the result of any spin.
1. "Sprinkle liberally with pepper," does not mean you're free to put the amount of pepper you want, be it much or little, it means generous amounts of pepper.
2. "There was a liberal allocation in the company's budget for supplies" does not mean there was a lot of freedom for the allocators to spring or not spring for supplies, it means there was a large amount of money allocated for supplies.
The derivation we use, at least here in America, of the root liber, when we want to mean freedom is "liberty." The political derivation of liberty that applies to personal freedom is "libertarian."
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Walmart offers crap pay. But guess what? SO DOES EVERYONE ELSE! Those girls in the high-priced depratment stores are making the same crappy pay and getting the same crappy benefits as the Wally-World people...but THEY have to dress up nicer.
Hourly workers, sales clerk, customer service reps...all are WAY underpaid. Walmart did not create this. I was poor long before Walmart even existed. Walmart just made it possible for people getting crappy wages to afford more stuff.
~~~~~
"Funny and sexy. You have no idea. And you never will."
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You can replace liberal with versions of "free" in both those sentences and they still make sense
Sprinkle freely with pepper
There is some freedom in the budget for office supplies.
That liberal can be used to denote "generous" is not in question. Of the 4 definitions listed in the OED quotation I posted one was just that. The point is that the other 3 meant "free" including the one specifically as the word applied to political useage.
I hadn't given Finn's thoughts on the American usage of Liberty much thought but he's correct. Many thinkers had spoken of Freedon but no state had actually said it was a birthright prior to 1776. The founders being a pretty highly educated and well read bunch would certainly have know the meaning of the word and would probably have called themselves "liberal."
Actually there are a lot of similarities between watching a US Libertarian convention and a UK Liberal one. They are both generally made up of intelligent underachievers who come to the conclusion that they never got anywhere because society is rigged against them. Both want widespread political changes that neither of the mainstream parties that actually run things will ever grant. Both seem to have a permissive, leftist fringe, the Libertarian debate on legal pot would not have looked out of place at a Lib Dem fringe meeting.
Liberals used to be the leftist party in UK politics roughly equivalent to the Democrats. They occupied the political spectrum slightly to the left of center and while the Tory's were the party of big industry and big landowners Liberals were middle class with socially active minor nobility taking the lead. They held political power on and off until the 1920's when the Labour party, a truely leftist party formed by the trade union movement, displaced them. They wondered in the political wilderness for 60 odd years, they are too right wing to be an alternative for hard line Labour voters, too leftist and ineffectual for Tory voters. Then in the early 1980's after Labours defeat by Mrs Thatcher a group of Labour MP's from the right of the party split off and formed the SDP -- Social Democratic Party. For a time they generated some excitement but in the end they formed an electoral pact with the Liberals and eventually the parties merged.
I'm told Lib Dems are extremely good in local government since they view politics as a public service and not a career. They fall down in national terms because they don't tend to have a clear vision that is an alternative to the other two. Their only two initiatives of note "proportional representation" and an "education tax" failed to win support because proportional representation means changing the electoral system in a way that favours the LibDems (and can be writen off as self serving) and the 1% income tax increase to pay for better education panders to their base --- a lot of Lib Dems are teachers.
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Fletch,
True, but that is the relation. It is how we use the word. No one says it was a liberal assignment, they say it was a flexible assignment. People just don't use the word liberal, outside of politics, to mean that it grants individual freedom.
But more importantly, the political left has favored big govt. and social safety net to the point where they have created the zero freedom police state many times. The liberals here in new york are repeatedly destroying freedom and the way of life in the name of state quality control and equality.
Now we have social services that come into people's household and steal their children for no greater offense than living as poor people do. No beating of kids is necessary, just lack of new clothes or away all day at work is enough to classify as abuse. People on public assistance are set to accord to all sorts of rules I could never abide, and nor could any normal person. If you're poor in this system it's basically like being on parole. For this reason I've never sought these services, I've just known too many people the state has stuck its nose into. So, I have seen decades of liberal work, and became convinced over time, that, while liberal voters care, liberal leaders don't really care, they want power.
So I can't accept a ploy to paint liberal as pro-freedom. It's as bad as painting democrats as pro-business on the grounds they have corporate sponsors, or as painting republicans as champions of affirmative action on the grounds that they ended slavery. It's just not an honest appraisal of what's going on here. It's pure spin.
Back to liberal, the word shows up in the US around the time of the revolution meaning free from restraint, use in ideas such as 'liberal spending.' This supports the 'generous' idea.
It shows up in politics in England in 1801 refering to pro-democracy, which lends it's more to the freedom. It's possible that two long traditions of using the word in politics has continued along these lines.
I certainly don't think that liberal has been used frequently to mean pro-individual liberty in the US, and I don't think that liberals in America would even be friendly to the usage, outside of this forum. I need to make that classification because, though on a right left spectrum we are all across the board here, there is one political area where firefly fans are different from everyone else.
Firefly fans have libertarian symathies, in some way or other and to some extent, because if we didn't feel pro-individual liberty, the show would not appeal to us.
Contrast this with Star Trek Next Generation fans. I used to be a star trek fan, and if you had asked me then, I'd probably would have defined myself as pro-govt. It's a very pro-govt. show, STNG particularly. Other variations of trek have different political slants.
So, would the liberals here also have libertarian sympathies? Sure. Do the bulk of American liberals? No. Not ever close. Most liberals in America find the idea scary. They think it would erupt into bigotry and bias, and crackpots with guns and personal nukes. I talk to a lot of liberals, and I am very sure of this.
Some conservatives, possibly a majority, possibly not, but a smaller % than the % of liberals, here in America, feel the same way.
I have more to say on the subject, but this is SO not about walmart, that I'll start a new thread to do it.
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Well I researched some English political sources that basically says that what we are talking about is the same thing.
Liberal, way back was an advocate of both personal freedom and social justice. The argument was that freedom to starve was no freedom at all and that you could have economic as well as political tyranny. I suspect this is a question of circumstances. When the UK industrialised it was free market capitalism with no restraints. At best we got industrial feudalism which at least meant that the companies did some things to help their workers, at worse was industrial indentured servitude, with systems like the butty system and scrip intended to milk the workforce as much as was practical. It would not be hard to see how economic control was as big a threat to liberty as political control.
So in the UK the liberal movement developed 2 threads, social liberalism essentially advocating that man was not free if he was economically controlled, and libertarianism that said that personal freedom was the more important of the two principles. Libertarianism itself had two threads, one that disliked central control and was allied with the collectivist and cooperative movements, and personal libertarians who didn't mind what government system was in place so long as it stayed out of their way.
In fact British libertarians were considered "of the left" as late as the early 20th century. They dropped out of sight because they were smeered as being Anarchists (if you dislike government structures you're an Anarchist right....?) So the name fell out of favour for many years. Today you have Libertarian wings in both political parties over here, those on on the left work to take down central authority and localise democracy, while those on the right favour personal lifestyle freedoms.
Several of my friends from back in the Young Conservative days called themselves libertarians, but UK conservatives are the party of centralised govenment so in this case "libitarian" meant pro free trade and pro personal freedom rather than being down on the central state.
The US small government (or "nightwatchmen" government) style libertarians never really did take off in the UK for much the same reason as it is a fringe movement here, both main parties are too heavily invested in keeping central control. However the libertarian fringes in teh Labour and Liberal parties did force through devolution, the returning of some powers from London to regional assemblies in Scotland and Wales and the election of new parliments there. As a group they still dislike european centralisation.
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A curious historical accident mixed this sort of limited govt. libertarianism into our political right.
In the beginning there were 13 colonies, as you know, and in the interests of resisting English rule, the US was formed. But doing so involved a lot of compromise. The federation split into two political factions, federalists, who supported a moderate amount of federal control, which then was limited govt. but grew over time. The opposition was the anti-federalists who wanted to minimize federal control.
Anti-federalists were in a minority and couldn't win out in the first few elections, and federalism took over. Federalists split over the indian question, with Andrew Jackson and the Democrats breaking off as an anti-indian group. The remaining group was the national republican party, whose membership became the whigs, and then just the Republicans.
For the freedom loving libertarians, there was the wild west, and people with an anti-federalist streak were inclined to settle westward out of strict federal control.
As the focus of debate switched from indians to slavery, the large slave state populations of the south were the only pro-slavery contingent, and the rest of the country was pretty much anti-slavery as anyone who doesn't benefit from it would tend to be.
The democrats picked up the torch for the slave states, and the republicans took up the anti-slavery standard. The west, being anti-slavery tended towards republican.
But at this point the west was largely a political non-entity. In an effort to win the debate against the populous south, the northern republicans pushed for new states to be partitioned by size instead of population. They new that this would give them a majority in the Senate which would allow the abolition of slavery.
The South saw that it would lose the battle in control of what happened to western states, which were more closely tied to the north now by party, the slavery issue, and the origin of their population.
Most people don't see this as the instigator of the Civil war, but in the declarations of secession by the southern states it's very clear. They say it over and over and over again. They knew that within a few years the south would be completely marginalized in the Senate, and slavery would be banned. After the slavery issue was gone, they would still be marginalized, and who wants to be part of a union in which you're marginalized. Such was the argument they put forth also to their people.
So, the south seceded, thus removing any opposition to the partitioning of western states. This created a large number of new republican leaning senate seats with a decided libertarian bent.
Post-war, as the Democrats picked up the sort of pseudo-socialist govt. as equalizer and social justice plaque, and the GOP became pretty much the party of limited govt.
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My view, which I fully expect you to disagree with, is that America moved profoundly to the left of British politics when it won it's Independence. The central tenets of the American Revolution have their basis on lot of what the British left would see as their ancestry. Like a said it was a progressive movement, a US conservative in 1776 would have been a loyalist.
What happened then I think was interesting. In the US there was a power vacuum, and while I agree with your analysis of the players I don't nescessarily agree who was who. Back at the time of the Civil War the Democrats were the party of the south and conservative, Republicans were the party of the Industrial north. I think that continued into the 1950's when the Dems went left and the conservative elements migrated to the Republican party. Reagan voted Democrat remember? He had that great quote "I never left the Democratic party -- they left me." If you look at a redstate/bluestate map of today it's pretty similar to the map from the 1930's except the colours have flipped. The Republican west is now that crazy liberal west coat....
Now in the UK things were different. Until the 1830's power was firmly with the Tory's then a party of rural land owners. This was not surprising since you had to own land to vote. Some large land owners just appointed MP's. As urbanisation increased so did two disenfrancised groups, the urban middle class and the industrial working class. The Liberal party came to represent both and so a complete spectrum of political thought existed within one movement. Through the reform acts the franchise was slowly and painfully extended and over time the Liberal parfty started to split into various factions as improved political freedom allowed smaller parties to exist.
There was no "West" for those unhappy with the government to move to. There was the Empire, and most of those that didn't like central authority went there. This probably explains the strong independent streak in most Australians. Those that stayed pretty much accepted the idea of a strong central state, and the apparatus to run an Empire was equally adept at running anything else. British life right or left was about order and the enforcement of order not nescessarily about liberty. If you don't like something you dont have the option of heading a few 1000 miles west until it got better or ceased to exist. You were forced to compromise.
I think that had an effect on what happned later in both nations. America has always had the idea of personal liberty and the space to express it. The UK has neither. So though America moved left compared to the UK of the 1770's it didn't really have the need to go any further that way. There was space enough and a political vacuum big enough that risk of conflict over all but the most pressing of matters could be avoided. In contrast forced to live with each other and divided by class Britain radicalised in every conceivable direction. Since maintainence of order was always paramount we moved left in fits and starts over the next 200 years, eventually passing the established US status quo until now you are to the right of where any of us are. You might find a Conservative willing to cut services to finance tax cuts but you wont find any that think that all in all Government was a bad idea. Most Conservatives believe that people and industry should stand on their own two feet but that doesn't mean that they plan to give up any economic controls. No Conservative believes freedom is more important than order.
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Fletch
You're right. I disagree. Australia was britain's equivalent of the west, sure. But there wasn't really a left/right swap. The GOP always meant business, at least since the beginning of the 20th c. and possibly always. The dems always meant govt. esp. since FDR.
Reagan was a democrat, and was still a democrat when he got elected as a republican president. He had to compromise with republicans, like gh. bush, but he was initially part of a big fight because his backers, the social dems, and the christian right, were not part of the traditional republican base.
If there was a shift, it was that the christian right became a republican, and black people became democrats. But there wasn't such a major policy flip flop of the parties themselves at the core.
Prior to WWI, the dems were heavy into govt. regulation and public service, social safety net, the republicans were very much pro-business, pro-family values or whatever, white picket fences and stuff. None of that changed.
If the infection of creationists and social militarism can't be purged from the GOP, I'll give up on it, but I don't think we're nearly there. If I had to give up on the GOP at some point, it would be towards a third party split back to what the GOP used to be like, such as something like the Reform Party, but not to the democrats.
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I really got a chuckle from some of the comments:
"Wal-Mart will have a sizeable hand in making Earth-that-was"....that's fully.
"They are categorically evil and un-American (spelled with a small a)"...that's twisted.
Someone put it the simplest. "If Wal-Mart is evil, then all corporations are evil." That's the question you have to ask, not just Wal-Mart. All corporation have the same primary goal...beat the competition, put them out of business." The truth is, and like it or not, that’s the cold hard reality of our society. I’ve tried two businesses and shut them both down for the same reason. I was spending more time working, and not enough with my family. Somebody claimed they were "breaking laws", well prove it or clam it. Trust me; there are enough eager DAs out there, in all 50 states that would love to further their careers by busting a Wal-Mart. I have this to thank Wal-Mart for. My 75 year old mother went to work for Wal-Mart about a decade ago, as of all things, a greeter. We've all heard the jokes about Wal-Mart greeters, but when they are directed at your mother it's hard to take. Anyway, she eventually moved to lawn and garden, and really enjoys it. Is she getting rich? Hell no! But that's not why she went their. She took a small cut in pay to get health benefits, which she did not have at her previous job (btw…that business is still there), and that decision paid off recently. My Mother was out of work for 6 months having a knee replaced. For the entire time she was off, Wal-Mart long term disability provided her with a paycheck. Thank God for Wal-Mart. If she were still at that paint business, she would have been SOL, cause not only would they have done nothing for her financially, she would lost her job. Wal-Mart took her back the day she was ready.
One more comment on the comments: "Kill it. Kill it soon and fast. Maybe torture it, send it to abu Ghraib." Now, wishing for the unemployment of 200,000 plus people, wishing that all of their suppliers and vendors loose that business, adding to the thousands of Americans already out of work...now that's evil.
Spaceracer
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Oh yes. I would gladly wish them out of work. If that's evil, well then I have one question, does evil take mastercharge?
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Mastercard is just another division of Evil Inc
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It was a buffy:faith quote
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Quote:As quick as I am to point out the 'evils' of a corporation, I am also glad to hear a positive story like this; Wal-Mart employs people, most of them good, and this is proof on the individual store level.
Originally posted by SpaceRacer:
Wal-Mart took her back the day she was ready.
Thanks.
Chrisisall
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Police: Wal-Mart site raided
Quote:
About 125 arrested on immigration violations at Pennsylvania construction location. NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) - A raid by federal, state and local authorities at a Wal-Mart Stores construction site in Pennsylvania netted about 125 arrests for alleged immigration violations.
Schuylkill County Capt. Dennis Kane confirmed the raid to CNN. USA Today reported that the workers were working on a million-square-foot distribution center in Butler Township, in eastern Pennsylvania.
Kane said immigrants who were arrested were taken to nearby Philadelphia. The county police worked in conjunction with Pennsylvania state police and federal immigration agents, he said.
http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/18/news/fortune500/walmart_raid/index.htm
?cnn=yes
This isn't the first time that Walmart has been cited for immigration violations, and not the first time that Walmart has broken labor laws.
---------------------------------
Please don't think they give a shit.
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On the subject of whether Wal-Mart is capitalist or socialist, I don't think it qualifies as capitalist any more.
Indeed, Wal-Mart is the beneficiary of direct government largesse at every level.
Consider, that when it opens its stores, it generally negotiates tax holidays, site servicing, land grants or leases with the local municipalities and governments.
Well, here's the thing. It costs money to set up a site for Wal Mart, to ensure that it is serviced with electricity, sewer and water connections, etc. These Big Box store locations are extremely expensive to municipalities in terms of servicing, simply because they suck up large amounts of square feet in empty locations and often have large but erratic consumption. So basically, every time one of these big box stores opens up, its costs are being subsidized by the homeowners and working people in the town, who are not being asked if they want to assume this burden. It's not pay as you go.
But it gets worse. Wal-Mart, using its 'brand' and often using pressure tactics and a variety of legal and extralegal bribes, often gets its land and services for free, and often negotiates tax holidays.
Which means that the local tax base is screwed further. Not only are tax payers subsidizing the whole of Wal-Mart's establishment, but they municipality is lacking the fair property taxes that Wal-Mart should have paid. Now, if other businesses had moved in, they would have paid taxes. Wal-Mart means that the town's budget shows a real loss. To make up that loss, two things happen, services and quality of services decline, and the tax burden gets heavy on those who have not negotiated sweetheart deals... ie, the average homeowner.
It gets worse of course, because Wal-Mart frequently wipes out local businesses who are tax payers. As they go down, the tax base actually declines, as Wal-Mart enjoys its free ride.
Wal-Mart has also proven very good at sucking up government money in various ways. Its estimated that each Wal-Mart store receives a half a million dollars a year in employee subsidies in one form or another. Half a million a year per store is not small change. Programs which were designed for the needy, the destitute, designed to help people turn their lives around, are being manipulated by Wal-Mart to improve its bottom line. By shoving its costs and employee expenses onto the government, rather than paying it themselves, Wal-Mart becomes a government subsidized operation.
Now, I'll ask you as a taxpayer, do you feel happy that your tax dollars are going towards subsidizing a giant corporation that gives its execs million dollar bonuses?
And of course, do you think that Chinese slave labour goods arrive magically on America's shores? No. Wal-Mart lobbies for labour laws and trade laws that serve its own interests, and spends a great deal of money to do it. Government acts for Wal-Mart, Wal-Mart acts for government. Only the working guy is screwed.
Now, reading quickly over this thread, I've noticed that some dicklover feels the need to disparage liberals and the left. Well, I'm a Canadian, I've worked all my life, I've paid mortgages, run my own business and worked for others, I've always paid my own way and I've helped people where I can. Let me say that the problem with American liberalism is that they lack guts, but that's a forgiveable sin. The problem with the American right is that they're a bunch of self-pitying, dishonest whiners who, as far as I can tell, don't know what real work is, and don't know what real values are. Now, I ain't really interested in making this a big grand political debate, I'm just setting out where I'm from.
So Wal-Mart make a lot of money? Good for them. Its easy to make a lot of money when you don't play by the rules, when you cheat and rob people. Ask any crack dealer.
The fact of the matter is that I expect any company to pay its fair share of taxes, I expect it to obey the law... Wal-Mart does neither.
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Should also be pointed out that lots of businesses get "sweetheart deals" from local government. I know someone commented elsewhere about the use of eminient domain law by some cities to buy people's homes and then sell the land to some business in a sweetheart deal. I think that's just plain wrong. IF the city needs land for public works, schools, roads etc it MAY have some rights to do that (which is why "fair compansation" is in the US Constitution) BUT improving your tax base is not a good enough excuse IMHO.
And what is it with sports teams? In the US sports francises are money making machines, why should cities and their tax payers foot the bill for building stadiums etc? Especially in cases like here in Dallas with the Rangers where the team gets to keep the building???
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These are all the definitions of socialism in the online Merriam-Webster Dictionary. As you can see, oddly none of them apply to Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart is not an economic or political theory. It does not advocate state ownership or control of private property or the means of production. It was never even mentioned by Marx. It is not a 20th century English or German theory or totalitarianism. In fact, it is a complete misuse of the word to claim that Wal-Mart is socialist.
socialism n.
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
guild socialism n.
: an early 20th century English socialistic theory advocating state ownership of industry with control and management by guilds of workers
national socialism n.
: NAZISM
state socialism n.
: an economic system with limited socialist characteristics introduced by usually gradual political action
utopian socialism n.
: socialism based on a belief that social ownership of the means of production can be achieved by voluntary and peaceful surrender of their holdings by propertied groups
-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.
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Valdron,
Hear hear! Well put. Also, Walmart interferes in local politics to set up such a support system.
Too bad no one drowned it in the bathtub when it was still small.
Now things have definitely gotten out of hand. Captialist? Socialist? I don't know, this has hellmouth written all over it, I think perhaps we should consider sending a slayer after it now. Maybe two. Faith tactics might just be the order of the day.
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Got a camera?
Great. Here's me giving a rat's ass for half baked dictionary definitions of socialism.
Wal-Mart and its ilk is the oldest kind of socialism, which is the socialism that involves
the rich and powerful manipulating the system to enrich themselves further. Specifically, by getting the rest of us saps to subsidize them or just transfer our tax money directly to them.
If you want a name for it, call it corporate socialism.
As for my creed, I subscribe to the cause of common sense, which sadly enough, ain't all that common.
As for Wal-Mart, I imagine that it'll eventually go the way these sorts of critters always do. It'll load up on debt, buying everyone and everything in sight, then it'll make a bunch of bad management decision, then after its well and truly wrecked and polluted the landscape, it'll have a crisis, hold its shoppers and employees hostage and demand that government bail it out.
Worked for General Motors, didn't work for Enron, and won't work for anyone in the long run.
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