Tim Minear reveals another unfilmed FF episode

POSTED BY: Blinker
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 07:31
VIEWED: 54460
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From accounts of a writing seminar he taught last week:

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http://www.livejournal.com/users/_eb/83667.html#cutid1

What were some of the Firefly stories you never got to tell?

He hemmed and hawed, “Should I tell you this?… Oh well, what’s he going to do, fire me?” The original show was darker and this story was more in keeping with that tone.

It opens with Mal and Inara fighting (as they do). Mal tells her she pretends to be a lady and wants everyone to bow before her and kiss her hand but she’s just a whore. Then the Reavers attack and take Inara. While trying to get her back they learn that she had something that would make anyone who had sex with her die. When they finally track down and board the ship they find all of the Reavers dead and Inara shaking and traumatized. They take her back to the ship and Zoe guards her room. Mal tries to get in to see her and Zoe tells him he’s the last person Inara needs to see. He pushes past her, kneels before Inara and kisses her hand.

Of course someone asked, “Is that what the syringe [that Inara gets out when the Reavers approach in the pilot episode] was for?” To which he replied, “I don’t know. Next question.”

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http://www.buffistas.org/showthread.php?thread_id=143&post_id=6060

Inara has yet another fight with Mal, in which he says something especially cruel like "I'm not going to get on my knees and kiss your hand like your a lady. You're a whore."

Inara has a sort of chemical weapon in case of rape, so whomever attacks will die immediately after raping her. (I'm not saying this all as eloquently, I'm pre-coffee).

She's kidnapped by reavers in an attack. Mal and crew go in to the reaver ship to save her.

What they find is the entire crew of reavers, all dead, and Inara huddled on the floor, beaten half to death.

Later, in Inara's shuttle, it's only Zoe there, guarding her silently. Mal tried to come in, and Zoe opens a can of whup ass and tells Mal no fucking way is anyone coming in.

Mal gets past Zoe (yeah, right) and walks over to Inara's bed where she's curled up and post-traumatic. Gets on his knees, and kisses her hand.

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http://browncoats.serenitymovie.com/serenity/index.html?fuseaction=for
um.viewtopic&t=25271&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

He described it as a weapon, not a disease that she carried. He later said in another forum that it had nothing to do with the syringe.

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Given the context, I don't see how it could be anything but the same syringe, but there you have it.

_________
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It would be a great opportunity to maim Inara. Her profession depends a lot on her appearance, I wonder if she could still be a Companion if she gets "uglied up."

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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That's an interesting idea for what the syringe might have been. It also could be Tim just messing with people. Who knows. I know Joss and Tim don't mind doing horrible things to characters, but Inara getting reavered? I'm not sure either would do that. But, they've surprised me before.

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I love the Mal/Inara relationship

It would have been very interesting to see how this would have effected that relationship

Perhaps an fic exploring this...

Is that wrong?

I can't write anyway

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Interesting. But there's something very dodgy about the storyline. If the reavers board the ship, how would everybody else survive, and why would the reavers only take Inara? I guess it's always possible that they kidnap Inara while she's flying to a client in her shuttle.

But even then, why does the crew go to rescue her? For all they know Inara is dead, and trying to board a reaver ship trying to save somebody that should be dead sounds like suicide.

Then there's the problem I have with Zoe "guarding" Inara afterwards. Why does she do that? To protect Inara from the rest of the crew? Since when do Inara and Zoe have such a tight bond? Off-hand I can remember only one conversation between the two in the series, and even then it was merely part of a plan to fool JoSaffBridge. And if Inara wants her privacy, why doesn't she just lock her door? Zoe guarding Inara sounds very melodramatic and corny.

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How can that happen? If she killed a whole ship full of reavers by poisoning them as they raped her, wouldn't she herself be pretty far gone by the time all that was done? I mean, remember Serenity? It looks like there's a lot of reavers on those ships.

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Well it would depend on the size of the Reaver ship, it could have been a small pursuit craft not much bigger than Serenity's shuttles.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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You guys (and gals) are great, but I swear you think too much sometimes. If that's a story they had in the offing, then there you go. At this point I don't think Tim's gonna go through all the energy to just make something that complex up. It wouldn't be too difficult to set up situations where these things could happen.

Maybe a small Reaver ship got to Inara in her shuttle on the way back to Serenity, and knowing that it's a small ship (a crew of maybe 6 to 8) and that they've only had her for a couple of hours, they decide to go and get her. There, that was easy.

And I totally think they would be willing to mess with a character in such a major way. That's what allows the story to progress. And change is, as the saying goes, inevitable.

OH, and I wouldn't compare it to Serenity (the movie) either, because these stories were in the works long before anyone thought about making a movie. Joss has said quite plainly that a lot of things had to change once we moved from TV to the silver screen.

Anyway, they would have made it work, and it would have been great, just like every one of the few episodes that we actually got.

Thanks for posting all of this by the way; I love hearing new tidbits and pieces.

I hope Tim didn't just totally spoil whatever Joss had in mind for a sequel to Serenity. Then I actually WOULD be pissed.

"I don't wanna explode."

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Oh my GAWWWD. :-( I'm almost glad we never saw that episode; I don't know if I could stand seeing Inara broken that way.

She's my favorite character, and imagining this episode makes me understand better the people who abandoned Whedon altogether after he killed Wash.

I'd never take it that far, but I uderstand the impulse.

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Wow. That would have been powerful storytelling.

I wish Minnear would bring back Firefly. Whedon is off doing other things and Minnear is the only realistic chance we have IMO.

No wonder the studios killed the show. We need wholesame feelgood tear-jerker TV starring cops, lawyers, activists, and cartoon characters.

XG


Save us Obi-Tim-Knobi. You're our only hope.

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You'd think after the third or fourth Reaver died of rape-itis they'd have tossed her out an airlock?... ;)

Can't imagine an episode like that would have ever made it on air anyway.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
It would be a great opportunity to maim Inara. Her profession depends a lot on her appearance, I wonder if she could still be a Companion if she gets "uglied up."

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Dude, that's just wrong on so many levels, I'm not even going to get into it....

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uh... wasn't the syringe just for suicide in case of reaver attack?

"That's why I never kiss 'em on the mouth."

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No Joss says on the dvd audio commentanry that that isn't what it is, most people didn't think about it til then but it started alot of speculation over what it was.

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011101000110100001100101001000000111001101101001
011001110110111001100001011011000000110100001010

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Tiger:
Oh my GAWWWD. :-( I'm almost glad we never saw that episode; I don't know if I could stand seeing Inara broken that way.

She's my favorite character, and imagining this episode makes me understand better the people who abandoned Whedon altogether after he killed Wash.

I'd never take it that far, but I uderstand the impulse.

---

The most powerful storytelling will move you in such a way that you never thought possible. It makes you face everyday fears that you hope you'll never have to face. I understand why people like "safe" entertainment in which no one is seriously hurt, the good guy wins in the end without corrupting his moral values, and everybody's happy and rides off into the sunset. I understand why people like that. It makes them feel good. But then there's the type of entertainment that makes you feel things you hope you don't have to feel. It makes you take a hard look at life and the world we live in. It makes you think. And it may even inspire you to do something to change the real world for the better.

Honestly, if this episode ever got made and aired, I would've been devastated by it. It would've taken me completely by surprise. I would've been shocked for days, maybe even weeks. But that's how much I'm drawn into Firefly/Serenity and the characters in it. I feel for them. And as the next episodes dealt with the situation and the characters came to grips with what had occured and faced it down, I would've been right there with them. Because I'm sure with an event that tragic, the episodes to follow would've continued to tell powerful stories. And it'd be interesting to see where things would go from there.

That's why I watch and love Battlestar Galactica. It has that same type of storytelling. In fact, in the last couple of episodes, we found another Battlestar which had taken one of Six's clones prisoner. We found out that'd she'd been severely beaten and repeatedly raped. And you know what, it pissed me off. It made me hate the people who did that to her. It made me feel for Six as she looked upon her clone with tears in her eyes. It also made me wonder who really was worse -- Humans or Cylons? Are the Cylons justified in exterminating a people capable of such atrocities? Guess what, that's still a question I haven't answered yet. I'm still thinking about it. That's why I love this type of entertainment. It makes a real impact on me.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SadLittleKing:
The most powerful storytelling will move you in such a way that you never thought possible... That's why I watch and love Battlestar Galactica. It has that same type of storytelling... It makes a real impact on me.

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You're preaching to the choir here - I love BSG too and for the same reasons.

There's no doubt the Inara/Reaver storyline would've been powerful, but it sure would have hurt to watch. I just like Inara too much for me not to be a little frightened by the thought of it.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Tiger:
You're preaching to the choir here - I love BSG too and for the same reasons.

There's no doubt the Inara/Reaver storyline would've been powerful, but it sure would have hurt to watch. I just like Inara too much for me not to be a little frightened by it.

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It definately would've frightened me. I was frightened watching Kaylee's reaction to Early's question, "You ever been raped, Kaylee?" That was tough to watch. I understand why, in the DVD commentary, it was revealed that Joss was a hated man the day that was filmed. But it was a powerful moment. It really shook me. And it stuck with me. And it's still not easy to watch. But that's storytelling in its highest form. Art imitates life, as they say. Anything could happen at anytime, whether triumphunt or tragic.

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This could have been such a tremendous episode. I can see it in three acts:

I) Mel/Inara tension setup; the attack of the Reavers and the talking of Inara.
II) The decision to try to save her, or her remains as Jayne would state she is gone and the ensuing mayhem to do so.
III) Her return to Serenity, broken in body, mind and spirit. This act would dwell on what she meant to others, especially Mel and his regrets; his kissing her hand, his loss of her.

In the meantime, Simon would be able to heal her body, but who could heal her mind, her spirit? I would see River being capable, broken herself, but broken with the gift of preternatural perception and a hyper-genius intellect. She can pull out the broken fragments of Inara's mind via talk-therapy (of a sort) to help her pull it back together, with some help from Simon using 25th century psychotropic drugs, and perhaps a word of wisdom or two from Reverend Brooks and everyone else.

This episode would further the value of River and Simon to the crew; the mystery/capabilities of River to do good, to heal; the heroism of the crew; the value of Inara to all, especially Mel. It would also showcase the ultimate strength of Inara, for to even survive what happened, the gang rape by a bunch of sociopathic Reavers, you have to be supremely strong and capable in the first place

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SadLittleKing:
another Battlestar which had taken one of Six's clones prisoner.

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Till I read this, I was thinking this whole story was filled with the moans of the couch.

Yup, could be, and Joss would have done it even better, as always. I don't much like the idea of this horrid plot device. It gets really tiresome that in any story it's liable to be an undercurrent of danger and violence only for female characters, and when it does happen to a male character (Bushwacked) it isn't mentioned or alluded to at all in the script.

If it's true, Tim should get so spanked for giving it away, extra lashes because he said 'what's he gonna do, fire me'.

Thanks to viral marketing...SERENITY: reopening soon in a theater near you.
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Quote:

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Originally posted by Grounded:
You'd think after the third or fourth Reaver died of rape-itis they'd have tossed her out an airlock?... ;)

Can't imagine an episode like that would have ever made it on air anyway.

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He hehehehehheeeee!!

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Superb!!!

***************************************

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So Inara raped by 50 reavers. Wow, a sick story - good thing they never filmed that.

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Wow Fightthefuture.. I can see it.. I can feel it and it is uncomfortable and agonizing and ultimately full of redemption..

oh the places Joss and Tim might have taken us.. we will never really know.. but yes- it would have been profound and special and we would have gone along... on every journey.

Chindi (impressed by the level of writing and thought in this fansite.)

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What with the level of escalation required of tv shows, I can't imagine this happening anytime soon. It's so extreme, if they did this during season 1 they could never shock us again for 6 more seasons, espcially since our existing benchmark for torture is what the Academy did to River.

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The Academy's torture of River wasn't really that bad. It was really high tech, brain surgery and downloading stuff directly into the brain. The Academy River attended probably looks like a five star hotel compared to what it was like when it was first built.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Anasazi:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
It would be a great opportunity to maim Inara. Her profession depends a lot on her appearance, I wonder if she could still be a Companion if she gets "uglied up."

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Dude, that's just wrong on so many levels, I'm not even going to get into it....

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Of course it's wrong, which is why it would make a great story.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Blinker:
From accounts of a writing seminar he taught last week:

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http://www.livejournal.com/users/_eb/83667.html#cutid1

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Did anyone happen to get videos of either the class or the interview? Both sound pretty interesting to watch...I guess I need to move to LA

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
The Academy's torture of River wasn't really that bad. It was really high tech, brain surgery and downloading stuff directly into the brain. The Academy River attended probably looks like a five star hotel compared to what it was like when it was first built.

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You can't be serious. I wrote a long reply full of reasoning and comparisons of Academy and Reaver methods, but my mind still boggles, so I deleted it.

They physically took out part of her brain so she'll never again be able to repress emotion, and gave her horribly traumatic memories that she won't ever be able to stop herself from reliving. That's "not really that bad"? What do you think is "that bad"?

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Belacgod:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
The Academy's torture of River wasn't really that bad. It was really high tech, brain surgery and downloading stuff directly into the brain. The Academy River attended probably looks like a five star hotel compared to what it was like when it was first built.

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You can't be serious. I wrote a long reply full of reasoning and comparisons of Academy and Reaver methods, but my mind still boggles, so I deleted it.

They physically took out part of her brain so she'll never again be able to repress emotion, and gave her horribly traumatic memories that she won't ever be able to stop herself from reliving. That's "not really that bad"? What do you think is "that bad"?

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They implanted conditioning into her mind. How do you think they would condition her if they didn't have that technology? They would actually force her to do all that stuff, they probably would have forced her to actually kill people.

Removing a part of her brain to enhance her psychic abilities is a quick fix. If they didn't lobotomize her they would have to train her to use her psychic abilities and knowing the Alliance, the training would probably be far more painful and traumatic than having a piece of her brain removed.

My guess is that students trained at the Academy in its early days are far more messed up than River.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Giantevilhead:



My guess is that students trained at the Academy in its early days are far more messed up than River.

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Great. We haven't seen them. What we have seen is River being tortured horribly, and I'm arguing that seeing Inara having been gang-raped by Reavers would be more shocking, to the point where they wouldn't put both of those in season 1, for fear of not being able to shock us later.

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I have a hard time picturing Joss taking the "sex = death" metaphor to such a cheesy level.

Or using the "female sexuality and empowerment = death" cliche *at all*. Vagina dentata indeed.

Seriously, Joss has stressed in Inara that sensuality and sexuality is not a bad thing, I honestly can't see him abusing her to such an extent.

Joss, for all his faults, is more subtle than that. Early's threat to Kaylee is so powerful, because it isn't overdone, he's not twirling a big black moustache and sneering and posturing. It's a scary fuckin' scene for us and for Kaylee, because it's so subtle.

A bunch of reavers gang raping Inara sounds like a really bad fanfic, much in the vein of a bunch of reavers gang raping Jayne. It's a cheap plot device to break a character so that they can rebuild them in the way they want.

*~*~*
"He's hurting a woman, he really *is* a bad guy... and I wouldn't call him a gentleman."
- Kyle, 9, watching 'Serenity'.

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Obviously they can put that episode in the first season, it probably won't really fit within the first few seasons. Although the legacy of the Academy would probably be far more shocking and twisted than Inara getting captured by Reavers.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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I think one has to keep in mind that this was in keeping with the original plan of a very dark show. What eventually aired was ligher in tone than what was planned. For all we know, in the original crafting of the story this was a part earlier in the plot and not as completely shocking as it seems it would be given the way the series did turn out (not that it wouldn't still be shocking, of course).

---
inch towards daylight

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Quote:

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Originally posted by LightMeDark:
I think one has to keep in mind that this was in keeping with the original plan of a very dark show. What eventually aired was ligher in tone than what was planned. For all we know, in the original crafting of the story this was a part earlier in the plot and not as completely shocking as it seems it would be given the way the series did turn out (not that it wouldn't still be shocking, of course).

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Well, I'm glad they changed that. I like Firefly just how it is, and if it was dark enough that a main character being gang-raped could reasonably fit into the first season, I would not have become a Browncoat.

For those of us who are also Buffy fans:

Select to view spoiler:

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What if Angel's torments in hell had happened onscreen? What if, through CGI, season 1 episode 6 had shown the hyena-children eating the principal to the bone onscreen? What if a bunch of vampires had gang-raped Cordelia mid-second season? Would you have watched the next 5 years and gone on to watch Firefly, or would you have decided Joss was one sick f*ck and changed the channel?

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I doubt that they would have put that episode in season 1 even if the show had been as dark as they wanted to. They would have had to develop the Reavers more before using them in such a manner. Plus it’s not like they were planning to show the rape.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Blinker:
[Inara] has yet another fight with Mal, in which he says something especially cruel like "I'm not going to get on my knees and kiss your hand like your a lady. You're a whore."

...

Mal gets past Zoe (yeah, right) and walks over to Inara's bed where she's curled up and post-traumatic. Gets on his knees, and kisses her hand.

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Wow. Those two have the most amazing not-quite relationship I've ever seen on screen. Okay, the whole idea of this plot is rather revolting, and from the brief outline we've been given it seems ridden with holes (Zoe makes it very clear in the pilot you'd be damn lucky if rape came before flaying and murdering). But just the thought of that interaction between them, the way it would be played out ...

Powerful.

Agree about the syringe. For her to have a secret weapon against rape AND a completely separate syringe-type thing that she just happens to turn to in the pilot when reavers are near seems a little unlikely.

----
"She was naked, and all ... articulate."

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If this was truly a legitimate episode suggestion, then I imagine it was going to be polished up a LOT more.


There's some holes in that story that have me cringing.

Not so much the idea of rape, although the scenario does have some rather badfic connotations. (I agree with Jacqui there.)

Nor the Zoe thing, because of everyone aboard Serenity she is probably most equipped to deal with a traumatized, sane, adult female. Kaylee's too emotional, River too unstable. Not to mention, who knows what she has seen in the war?


But the rape-kit of death... uh... Not seriously, right?

What creeps me out is the whole handkiss idea.

A healthy happy Inara is a whore but a traumatized, abused Inara is suddenly worth more than that? I'd expect Inara waking up at that moment and slapping Mal square in the face for the implication.

I could imagine that being filmed more subtly than it is described here, making it more obvious that it's a throwaway line he doesn't mean, or something..

But that's still a really clumsy way to highlight the whole sex vs. power vs. morals vs. hypocrisy thing. At least when it comes to Mal's perspective.

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I didn't think the handkiss thing was so hypocritical. I mean, the way I've been reading it -not just this, everything in the series- is that Mal doesn't really mean half of what he says to Inara. Or even if he does, he exaggerates it. I figure he just says stuff like that to keep her at a distance and keep from getting attatched. He has intimacy issues- Wash pointed it out to him durring the torture in "War Stories". But the handkiss- I don't think that's hypocrasy so much as Mal breaking down to something more honest for her because he feels badly, or maybe even guilty, about what's happened to her. I've said to my boyfriend, while analyzing the show a bit, that Mal sees Inara's job as below him, but Inara herself as above him. The handkiss part, that's Mal catering to the part of Inara he sees as being above him.

This is all purely speculative, of course. We're only given such a rough concept to work with here- you're right about that, for sure.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Jacqui:
I have a hard time picturing Joss taking the "sex = death" metaphor to such a cheesy level.

Or using the "female sexuality and empowerment = death" cliche *at all*. Vagina dentata indeed.

Seriously, Joss has stressed in Inara that sensuality and sexuality is not a bad thing, I honestly can't see him abusing her to such an extent.

Joss, for all his faults, is more subtle than that. Early's threat to Kaylee is so powerful, because it isn't overdone, he's not twirling a big black moustache and sneering and posturing. It's a scary fuckin' scene for us and for Kaylee, because it's so subtle.

A bunch of reavers gang raping Inara sounds like a really bad fanfic, much in the vein of a bunch of reavers gang raping Jayne. It's a cheap plot device to break a character so that they can rebuild them in the way they want.

---

I'd agree. I'd want to see Inara come out more sane than anyone's ever come out of a Reaver attack. Why? Because sex isn't some deep psychological thing for her but a practical skill for her profession, because she is, in many ways, one of the strongest people on the ship, and because I wouldn't want to see another "rape is worse than death" sentiment out there. It's tiring and dangerous (honor killings, anyone?). Inara is prepared for rape as an occupational hazard--for all we know, she has been raped before. And I say she's too good to be broken by it. I think fear of the Reavers would be far more traumatic than the rape angle. How would you feel if you were captured by Reavers?

The explanation for the syringe fits perfectly--I never could imagine what it was for if not suicide. It's a very good explanation--it gives us more than a woman ready to commit suicide should the Reavers board in Serenity--it gives us a woman who will take as many as she can with her.


And lastly? I think Joss has learned his lesson from Seeing Red. No one was convinced by it, even the writers, and so we have Buffy and Spike snuggly again the next season. Joss now knows he can't take down the strong woman with rape. Sweet little Kaylee? Yes. But Inara, or Zoe? No. As someone said before, they didn't play up the rape angle with the man in Bushwhacked--why should it be so much more desirable (i.e., more untaboo, or more emotionally relevant) to show with a woman?

"it has some sweet character deaths -- I mean moments!" - Joss Whedon

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Quote:

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:

A healthy happy Inara is a whore but a traumatized, abused Inara is suddenly worth more than that?

---

Wow, this site really does make me think more deeply about things - something I'm really not accustomed to.

But I have to agree with psychoticbride here - to me, Mal's verbal abusiveness toward Inara is and has always been pure defensive strategy. He's never struck me as the puritanical type - witness Heart of Gold and his behaviour toward Nandy.

Mal's objection to Inara's occupation is simply an objection to her having sex with other men, not to the idea of a companion in general. From the moment he set eyes on her he saw her as a threat to his fragile equilibrium, and chose this angle (among others) to keep her at a distance. His comment about not kissing her hand is probably pure denial - it's actually something he secretly longs to do, among other worshipful things.

Thus, the thought of him actually doing it at the end the hypothetical episode gives me shivers. He's putting his feelings about her above any thought of self-preservation.

That said, there are the aforementioned major plot-holes, Inara with most of her skin still on being a biggie. I guess the best way to view this episode is as one that effectively became extinct from day one of shooting, for various reasons. I'm glad that Mal's admission of vulnerability toward Inara took another form. That scene in Serenity when he acknowledged her effect on him took my breath away.

----
Mal: "Hey, little one. Understand your part in all this?"
River: "Do you?"

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I'd just like to point out that this is precisely the reason it's dangerous for fans to have any say over the object of their fandom. I'm a longtime Firefly fan and an ardent supporter of all things Serenity. But reading through all these comments about how revolting this episode may have been, or how incompatible it may seem with the surviving shows... that's the point, people!! That's the point of art, especially dramatic art: to challenge us, to take us to the point of no return and beyond. Precisely because it's uncomfortable.

The main way the BDHs change and grow is through adversity (this isn't unique to Firefly characters, it's basically true of all drama). I for one think that the Inara rape episode could have done wonders for the relationship between Mal and Inara, both in pure plot advancement and character development, to say nothing for the crossover development of the other characters (especially River; I agree with the person who brought up how River and a post-rape Inara might develop a bond).

Think about it: If you'd never seen an episode like War Stories, many of you would dismiss the concept as ludicrous, out of touch with the existing series, etc., etc. I realize and respect that a reaver gang rape is something a great deal more terrible than torture (and murder!), but you see the similarity?

At any rate, my main point is this: I think it's fun that we get together and praise this show we love so much. I think it's great that we keep the fires burning, and hope against reason that we'll ever see Serenity fly again. And I think it's great that we critique the episodes, the movie, and all things Firefly. But as we enter an age where fans may very well have the power to resurrect shows financially, do we really want the artists to pay attention to us? I for one would rather be challenged.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by zirzird:
I'd just like to point out that this is precisely the reason it's dangerous for fans to have any say over the object of their fandom. I'm a longtime Firefly fan and an ardent supporter of all things Serenity. But reading through all these comments about how revolting this episode may have been, or how incompatible it may seem with the surviving shows... that's the point, people!! That's the point of art, especially dramatic art: to challenge us, to take us to the point of no return and beyond. Precisely because it's uncomfortable.

---

Great art is more than shock for shock's sake.

"it has some sweet character deaths -- I mean moments!" - Joss Whedon

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Personally, I didn't like the Mal/Wash torture scenes. They looked like fake TV torture. I didn't find them convincing at all.

That said, Niska was presented as a ruthless, bad dude, and people who crossed him as likely to end up dead. The Reavers were presented as the ultimate in inhumanity, and those who crossed them as lunch, or at the least traumatized into being like them. Torture by Niska simply has less psychological baggage.

I wouldn't have batted an eye had, for example, the Academy gotten River back and for several episodes the crew had to figure out how to retake her before she got back to the Academy itself. I wasn't crushed by Wash or Book's death, both pretty significant events. And had any other character died, that would have been OK.

But a character surviving Reaving without being completely broken in body and mind would break the internal logic of the 'verse. You could do it once, but afterwards the Reavers would never be the same.

I'd believe this episode in season 4, maybe as part of the S3 finale. Not earlier.

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Who's to say it's just for the shock? All we've got is a rough outline. I'm certain they had a point with it... I mean... it's Joss and Tim. It's just not neccisarily clear because we have so few details and it was just an idea anyway, nothing concrete.

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Well we don't know how long it would take Inara to recover, if she's going to recover at all. I'm assuming that if Firefly had gone on longer, there would have been long term consequences to their actions and it wouldn’t have been like other tv shows where a character is able overcome serious problems like alcoholism in just one or two episodes. I know that if I had been a writer for the show, I probably would have made a 10 or 15 episode arc where River gets addicted to a drug and show all the different stages of drug addiction, craving, tolerance, withdrawal, probably even a relapse.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Man o man, reading through these posts makes it very clear to me why some Browncoats went to see Serenity and came away not liking it.

These are like 2 sentence, second hand breakdowns of an idea Joss and Tim had for the show. Certainly it would have been refined A LOT. A 2 or 3 sentence blurb is a starting point for the writers to take and run with to craft a great show.

That being said, it's too funny seeing so many people start chiming in with all sorts of absolutes about what this character or that would or wouldn't do. Or the assertion is made that if someone had seen that then they would not have been a fan. Some look at this second hand blub and start picking it apart like crazy.

It's like so many here forget that it's not your show. You love it like it was your own (which is great), but for cryin' out loud it's Joss's characters and his show/movie, all of which have been executed with a precision and skill that has spawned a whole new type of fan: the Browncoat. Don't you think, just maybe, that Joss and Tim would have the ability to pull it off? Don't you think that, just maybe, their track record pretty much answers that question?

It's these same absolute assertions that people are making here that lead them into a theatre with a closet full of expectations. You become your own worst enemy by making yourself unable to enjoy the entertainment that is set in front of you. Sometimes too much analization is a bad thing.

It's just funny to me to see such a short synopsis picked apart so much. Cheesy? So Joss's track record hasn't given you any sort of confidence in his ability to pull something like that off and make it good?

When making a show, they usually keep notebooks full of ideas. Any time a good idea is spewed forth it is added to the list. And then, as a show takes on a life of it's own, certain ideas still fit and others don't. Some ideas still fit after the appropriate tweaking is done. Either way, this was just one simple idea that they had that Tim threw out there for us. Who knows when it would have actually taken place and how different it would have been once it was actually executed.

All I know is that it would have been great because it was done by them and it would have been handled with the same talent and passion that everything we've seen so far has been. Any more speculation from there (IMHO) just seems to lead to expectations and therefore dissapointment.

Oh, and one other thing: this explanation would certainly fit the comments on the commentary about the syringe being something much worse than a suicide drug. Hell, it's worse than the other ideas people have come up with for it as well.

"I don't wanna explode."

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One of the things that I like about this site is freedom of speech. People can express their opinions about all aspects of firefly, whether they are positive or even negative (within reason, of course). A site where any remotely critical comment was completely shot down would be a less enjoyable and stimulating place to hang out. Well, frankly, it would be quite scary.

I think we are an analytical bunch. The great thing about Firefly is that it stands up to so much analysis - deeper meanings reveal themselves as you delve.

To me it seems a natural reaction when the future of firefly is up in the air, that people would want to speculate about what may have happened, to try to find out what may have been planned for the series. When I'm handed a possible clue like this - I want to think it over, see how it might or might not fit.

I'm grateful for the comments from the people above, as I always am for the varied viewpoints that make me think a little more deeply about things. They've helped me put the topic in perspective.

People didn't like Serenity because they thought too much? Hmm. Doesn't say much for the movie if that's the case. Personally, the more I thought about it, the more I loved it, started appreciating the nuances of the film.



----
Mal: "Hey, little one. Understand your part in all this?"

River: "Do you?"

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I think that some of the people who dislike the episode idea are assuming that the situation is resolved at the end of the episode. That's the way it works in most tv shows, a character goes through an extremely traumatic experience in one episode, recovers completely in the next episode, and the traumatic experience is never mentioned again or maybe it's just sort of alluded to but doesn't affect the story. I do not believe that the Firefly writers would have done that. Inara’s recovery would have probably taken place over an entire season and even then she won’t recover completely.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Well I agree completely that the more you look at Firefly/Serenity the more there is to see, and yes that is one of the things that makes it so great.

I'm all for thoughtful discussion as well; freedom of speech to boot. I actually find some of these discussions a lot of fun.

I'm simply expressing my observation that some people tend to get a little too "assumption happy" about characters and stories that are not their own and that they weild a very free hand when analizing other people's creations.

I admit though that I find even this interesting. I myself am a creative type (I am a writer/storyboard artist/illustrator/cartoonist/etc...) for a living and it's interesting to see how people analyze and critic such creations. I don't know, I think that Joss would find all of this amuzing (in a good way). He knows what he's doing, so letting people get into and talk about his work (and in this case "non-work" for lack of a better term) is not something that will get to him very much I would guess. I suppose if someone were to analize something to death that I was writing I would laugh as well. I'm going to do what I'm going to do and if you like it, you like it, and if you don't, you don't. Joss has had enough success to know that he's going to lose a few and gain a few.

I guess I'm just sensative to people getting in and ripping up other people's work due to my own place in the world. I suppose if someone heard a 2 sentence blurb about an idea I was working on and said it was "cheezy", I would just smile, shrugg my shoulders, and set about to prove them wrong. That's actually a large part of the satisfaction of being creative (or trying just about anything for that matter) - stepping out on that limb and succeeding where others might not have expected you to (including one's self).

But I stand by what I said before about people makeing assertions about characters that are not their own. They see only certain things that they want to see in any given character and get to thinking that they actually "know" this character, but really, how could you actually "know" any of these characters? You may certainly be familiar with them, but the only person who really knows these characters is Joss - and even HE may not totally know these characters. Most writers I know tend to have their characters take on a life of their own (especially when there is someone else playing the role for tv/movies who brings their own two cents to the table). Anyway, when anybody starts to think that they "know" the characters or the 'verse too well, they set themselves up for dissappointment because inevitably attached to their assumed knowledge is expectations.

And I'm not saying that people should just quit analyzing the show (or whatever fiction they like), I just think you have to be careful about making assumptions. I mean anyone is certainly free to do so, but why toture yourself like that? Why assume yourself right out of the ability to enjoy something that can be so much fun? Analysis free of assumption, that's my motto (for tonight anyways).

Ugh. I'm so tired. I've been up working almost all night on a movie poster, so if I'm just being crazy, please excuse me. Oh, excuse the terrible spelling as well - I'm too tired to check it. I'm now putting my sopbox away and going to sleep.

By the way, just so show how much of a fan I am, I hid a Firefly image in the movie poster I'm illustrating. Ha! Maybe I'll share it once the movie is out and I'm free to show the work. Til then just rest easy knowing that I'm subliminally putting Firefly/Serenity out there in front of people.


"I don't wanna explode."

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Quote:

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Originally posted by psychoticbride:
I've said to my boyfriend, while analyzing the show a bit, that Mal sees Inara's job as below him, but Inara herself as above him. The handkiss part, that's Mal catering to the part of Inara he sees as being above him.

---

Okay, I'll grant that it makes sense on that level. *g*

But still the focus on Inara having to have gone through something traumatizing to make Mal step back and take notice, it IS a tad clichéd.



I don't think it's a bad thing at all that people are overanalyzing this tiny little blurb, or that they are willing to criticise it harshly.

Isn't that what fandom is all about? Taking someone else's creation and looking for the parts that you respond to, making them your own by imbuing it with personal meaning, good or bad?

Maybe the entire finished episode would have been spectacular. Or maybe it would have been their first glorious failure. All we have IS the blurb.


And it's not like Joss has never failed. It's not a fan's duty to love everything. Personally, I think Atherton Wing and Rance Burgess were both pretty boring cardboard villains, and the hill folk of religious mania were also not exactly a revolutionary breakthrough in story telling.

They did serve to forward plot and say something about the other characters but by themselves they were pretty flat, one-dimensional. The reaver rape idea might have turned out no worse or better than that. Saying something profound about the core characters by less than brilliant means.

Doesn't mean someone who thinks the idea silly doesn't understand the nature of the series or posts "I hate Joss Whedon, you ruined the show!" in every board...
It's just a case of differing tastes.

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I'm not objecting to this on cheeziness grounds, or because I think it would be resolved at the end of the episode--I'm objecting to it because (1) if Inara recovers it destroys the Reaver mythos (even if she takes a year to recover), and if she doesn't then it's way too early to have destroyed a main character, and (2) Whether she recovers or not, I don't like that level of darkness in my TV shows or movies.

Select to view spoiler:

---

Angel's going to hell in Buffy was about my limit--visually showing his tortures would have put me off

---

Firefly's mix of darkness, humor, action, and deep character interaction is what drew me in--while one instance of (off-screen) gang-rape and its consequences wouldn't put me off, enough other darkness and brutality so that this plot point wouldn't be out of place would.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
I think that some of the people who dislike the episode idea are assuming that the situation is resolved at the end of the episode. That's the way it works in most tv shows, a character goes through an extremely traumatic experience in one episode, recovers completely in the next episode, and the traumatic experience is never mentioned again or maybe it's just sort of alluded to but doesn't affect the story. I do not believe that the Firefly writers would have done that. Inara’s recovery would have probably taken place over an entire season and even then she won’t recover completely.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

---

I wonder if Inara would ever be able to be a Companion again after something so traumatic. She may not be puritanical about sex, but she's not open to anyone just violating her, especially in the way Reavers would. How long would that nightmare stay with her? The moment a man (other than Mal) touches her, would she instinctively pull away? And if she ever recovers to the point where that doesn't happen, how long would it take? Or would she stop trying to be beautiful -- wearing glamorous outfits and make-up and having perfect hair. Would she try to scar herself physically so that men wouldn't find her attractive? It really would bring up a lot of questions that, like you said, couldn't be resolved in a few episodes. It would take a long time. There are many possibilities to the direction Inara's character could go, whether up (making her stonger) or down (pushing her toward darkness).

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AgentRouka said:

"And it's not like Joss has never failed. It's not a fan's duty to love everything. Personally, I think Atherton Wing and Rance Burgess were both pretty boring cardboard villains, and the hill folk of religious mania were also not exactly a revolutionary breakthrough in story telling.

They did serve to forward plot and say something about the other characters but by themselves they were pretty flat, one-dimensional. The reaver rape idea might have turned out no worse or better than that. Saying something profound about the core characters by less than brilliant means.

Doesn't mean someone who thinks the idea silly doesn't understand the nature of the series or posts "I hate Joss Whedon, you ruined the show!" in every board...
It's just a case of differing tastes. "


Actually, despite the things I said before, I agree with you, although I didn't say anything about people posting that they hate Joss Whedon on every board. I'm not blindly defending Joss, just to be clear; I'm defending him on a very particular point, which is his track record in regards to creating and executing Firefly. And I guess I'm sort of speaking up for anyone on the creative side of the fence - the people who actually put their creative efforts out there for people to like or dislike. It takes a lot of guts for anyone to do that. However...

No one is above failure or reproach. We, of course, should expect them to try and be at their best at all times, but we should know as well that they are never perfect and will never be able to hit a home run with all fans. Like I mentioned before, this goes for all creative types. And this is exactly why they should do things for themselves, not fans. You make what you want to see, that way you are true to your own vision; and that keeps a project "pure" in a way.

Firefly is by no means perfect, and the desire to analyse even this tiny plot snippet to death is a natural reaction. It can even be fun. I get it, I do, but I guess there's something inside of me that sees another side as well. I just hear people being so skeptical these days. On the one hand I get it, 'cause there's so much crap out there that deserves our scorn, but on the other hand why not just focus on the good? Why waste time with the bad? It seems like a waste of energy to me.

And if someone thinks they could do something better, then do it! Don't talk about it, do it. I'd be the first in line to watch/read it. Seriously. Not Firefly, of course, but something of your own. I'm willing and wanting to support quality entertainment. (And before any asks if I put my money where my mouth is, yes I do. It's what I do for a living. And amoung all the other things I'm working on, I'm slowly but surely producing my own graphic novel that I'm sure one day I'll ask Firefly fans to read - then I'll be the one out there under the scrutiny. Heck, maybe that's why I'm so sensative to all of this.)

So anyway, even though Firefly has it's less than perfect secondary characters or plots, it's those main characters and their charm that makes the show such a success. It's strengths far outweigh it's faults and that's pretty rare these days. So all I was saying before was that in the case of Firefly I think Joss has a damned near perfect track record and therefore deserves some benefit of doubt in this case.

Now how the hell did I get on my soapbox again. Sorry about that. I'm shutting up now.


"I don't wanna explode."

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Yuck.

It's amazing to me. People comparing this potential episode to the gratuitous rape ep from the new Battlestar Galactica (the most desperate attempt to revive a boring show ever). BSG's rape scene was all about trying to save a show that is boring the audience to death with ugly drama. The way it would have been done in FF would have made people think.

So much very thought provoking reflection on a twist in the plot line that will never be. Whedon and Minnear love to approach the unapproachable in their storylines which is what makes them great. It also makes their show cancelled before it ever gets out of the gate.

The minute they had Early (a black dude) threaten to rape Kaylee (the happy-go-lucky cutesy white dimwit mechanic chick), the show got a nuclear-bomb torpedo right across the hull. Hell... that ep never even made it onto the screen. It only lives on in the world of DVDs.

Nothing to do with the quality of the storytelling. It's the impact it would have had on people. All politics.

XG


No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by XeroGravity:
Yuck.

It's amazing to me. People comparing this potential episode to the gratuitous rape ep from the new Battlestar Galactica (the most desperate attempt to revive a boring show ever). BSG's rape scene was all about trying to save a show that is boring the audience to death with ugly drama. The way it would have been done in FF would have made people think.

---

I respect your opinion of BSG, but that plot point wasn't done out of some imaginary desperation. As I said before, it does play a role in how Humans and Cylons are perceived. Afterall, up to this point, Humans were portrayed as the victims while the Cylons as the enemy. Now we see an instance in which Humans show a side of themselves that makes you feel for the Cylons. And it brings up the question of whether the Cylons are right in exterminating Humans because they are capable of such horrendous acts. Also, what we've seen with one Battlestar preparing to fight another Battlestar is the divide inherent in human nature. How far is too far? At what point do Humans cease to be civilized and become monsters, maybe moreso than the enemy they're fighting? And at what point do Humans begin to turn on each other because of this?

I'm not knocking your opinion. If you don't like BSG, that's fine. But it is a very deep show, as much as Firefly/Serenity. And that's why I could draw the parallels that I drew. Because they're there.

All that said, I don't want to turn this into a BSG discussion so I'm just gonna leave it at that. Whatever you find boring is up to you. I know people who thought Firefly was boring. But it's not a big deal because I enjoy the show and that's all that matters to me.

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One thing that everyone seems to be ignoring is that this episode was never filmed. This says to me that Joss et al realized it would be a bad idea (for whatever reasons) before it was too late. I could see the basic plot being used if they downgraded Inara's trauma by making her assailants not Reavers, or only a few (not dozens). Reavers (like the Blue Hand guys) are meant to portray the ultimate evil of the kind people are willing to commit suicide to escape, and should only be used sparingly except for watershed events, such as Inara leaving the show for an extended period of healing and counselling at a Companion Guildhouse dedicated to such things. Serenity really only has room for one severely traumatized girl, and putting another "victim" on board would wreck the dramatic balance of the show.

BTW, did anyone else notice how young Inara looked in her last scene in the movie? Makes you wonder how just old she really is under all that Companion sophistication. Could she actually be the same age as River, and what Mal would think if he found out she was?

Dalton "What does the Alliance consider jailbait?" Spence

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No Dalton we're gonna visit this subject.

Hmm Sadlittleking wants to examine the morality of killing "cylons" who exterminate humans off their homeworld and try to chase down the survivors in space as they hurl towards the mythical world of Earth. Their last shot at salvation.

Let's explore the motivation of the enemy. They are cruel and ruthless exterminators of humans ~ half genetically programmed, half computer programmed monsters. Let's give machines souls. Lets take aways the souls of the humans fighting them. It's such great storytelling.

Thank the Greek gods Zeus, Athena, etc. that the 12 tribes can go find the mythical 13th tribe, Earth. But only if they can escape the bio-mechanoid monsters hunting them. Oh wait, they suddenly have emotions, and if they are female men can rape them.

Shame on you naughty men! Thank Zeus we have a female politician from a now-extinct male-dominated society becoming the prophesized messiah of wayward humanity (ah she was secretary of education ~ we can learn from her).

It's not storytelling. It's politics.

If it isn't anything I'm saying, it is at the very least boring storytelling.

Glen Larson, original writer of BSG hates it. Richard Hatch (Apollo from the original BSG) once hated it and was a longtime advocate for the return of the show. They bought his silence by giving him a role on the show (ah a paycheck at last for a hasbeen actor). Larson always hated him and felt he was a parasite (was writing BSG books against Larson's will). And on and on...


Too much to tell. The original BSG was great, but it was basically "Mormons in Space". It was a parable of Mormon theology (cuz Larson is a Mormon). They stripped the soul out of his story, and made it all political. I'm no Mormon. In fact, I'm a godless viking with a little bit of Buddha weirness mixed in. I'm a nothing. But, I know crappy boring TV film when I see it. Weather channel is more thrilling than the new BSG and I've watched it since the beginning.


It's just not even remotely in the same storytelling universe as FF. The rape thing in BSG was just a cheap attempt to get ratings. No depth, no thought-proving basis to it. Just ratings.

I can't even believe I'm having this debate.

XG

This isn't battlestar galactica. if Larson hates it, that should say something.


No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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I get it. You don't like the show. I got that the first time. But as I said, I know people who don't like Firefly and look down on it the same way you look down on BSG. I'm not discussing this anymore. Move on.

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That would have been an interesting episode.

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Uh....for the record Objects in Space did air. The unaired episodes were Trash, The Message and Heart of Gold.


Now on to this story idea. I agree that it is a very rough idea. Inara even surviving a Reaver abduction is pretty amazing considering the Reaver description. Then having Mal go to save her rather than try to kill her out of mercy is kinda out of character. It might work only because it is Inara and he doesn't think clearly when it comes to her. If anyone else was taken I would think he'd do what he could to destroy the whole Reaver ship and put them out of their misery more than try to rescue them. Plus the Zoe standing guard thing does sound pretty weird. My best guess is they'd have Inara ask Zoe not to let Mal see her because she doesn't want Mal to see her broken. I think with some work it could be a decent episode. It would be traumatic though.

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Originally posted by SadLittleKing:
How long would that nightmare stay with her? The moment a man (other than Mal) touches her, would she instinctively pull away?

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Why do you assume "other than Mal"? Rape destroys intimacy by eradicting trust and equating everything with the psychological legacy of the act(s) - and what is more intimate than a touch from the person you love? If anything, I'd guess that Mal would be the most difficult person for Inara to face - if she ever could.

I have to say I think this sounds like a pretty vile idea. Plus, unintentionally amusing and/or Cronenbergesque (c'mon, a vagina that kills...). The idea that a gang-rape could be a great thing for Mal & Inara's relationship seems a particularly flawed one to me. But then (as others have pointed out), it IS only an outline.

What *would* be good for Mal & Inara's relationship is Mal getting it through his head that he can't separate Inara from her work. She isn't just turning tricks to feed her crack habit (unless that syringe really did contain her drugs ). Being a Companion is her life; it's what she was raised and trained to do, and it's at the centre of her worldview just as much as aiming to misbehave is at the centre of Mal's. He *can't* respect her but not her job, because that's a false dichotomy and (to me) suggests that he loves an idealised figure rather than the real person. Sure she has bad days (like the "Your clock is probably rigged to speed up..." guy from the pilot, or that badly ADR-d guy in 'Shindig'), but they tend to stem from clients who misunderstand or downright abuse the system, not from the system/worldview itself.

Simon's a doctor, Zoe's a soldier, Jayne's a thug, Inara's a Companion. None of these things are hobbies - they shape the way the characters live their lives, the way they interact with others, conceive of their situations, react to their environments. None of these can be dropped because they're inconvenient, they have to be acknowledged and worked around. Witness Zoe and Wash. Wash may not like it that Zoe will almost always follow Mal, or that her role in life takes her into dangerous situations; but he has to accept it, by and large, because that's who he married. Zoe and Wash are capable of compromise (even if it's sometimes achieved through shouting), but at the same time neither of them ever feels they're giving up too much, which is why their relationship works. Perhaps Inara and Mal, for all their obvious need for each other, would never reach that stage because their lives and worldviews are too incompatible.

Likewise, of course, Inara might want to rethink her vocab next time she describes Mal's occupation...

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Originally posted by NicolaClarke:
Why do you assume "other than Mal"? Rape destroys intimacy by eradicting trust and equating everything with the psychological legacy of the act(s) - and what is more intimate than a touch from the person you love? If anything, I'd guess that Mal would be the most difficult person for Inara to face - if she ever could.

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Good point.

I just assumed it cause she seems closer to Mal than any of the other men on the crew. They do share a bond that's based more on friendship and respect than anything else (since they won't let it become anything else). And the whole kissing the hand moment has to work on some level. It doesn't have to be an intimate kiss, just one of support.

But you make an excellent argument as to why it wouldn't work.

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SadLittleKing wrote:
I just assumed it cause she seems closer to Mal than any of the other men on the crew. They do share a bond that's based more on friendship and respect than anything else (since they won't let it become anything else). And the whole kissing the hand moment has to work on some level. It doesn't have to be an intimate kiss, just one of support.

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The sexual and emotional tension between Mal and Inara is palpable, it is clear that they are in love, but have been unwilling to commit.

Consider this scene just after Mal brings Inara back to "Serenity" after the encounter with the Operative.
There has been a dispute with the rest of the crew.
Inara told Mal "This isn't war, Mal." Inara said that Mal had come to the training house looking for a fight. He responded "I came looking for you." Remember he was worried about Inara's safety, and he went to rescue her, despite knowing it was a trap.

INT. CARGO BAY - continuing

Inara tries to catch up to --

INARA
Mal.

MAL
(turning)

I got no answers for you, Inara. I got no rudder. Wind blows northerly, I go north. That's who I am. Maybe that ain't a man to lead but they have to follow so you wanna tear me down do it inside your own mind.

INARA
I'm not trying to tear you down -

MAL
But you fog things up. You always have -- you spin me about. I wish like hell you was elsewhere.

INARA
I was.

That is why Mal asked Inara "Did you really miss this place?
Inara: (rueful smile) Sometimes... Not so much right now.

A beat. he doesn't look at her when he asks:

MAL
Why did you leave?

She does look at him.

INARA
Why didn't you ask me not to?

Dissatisfied, Mal rises.

MAL
I, uh, I'd better go check on the crew. See how the inevitable mutiny is coming along.

They both want to say more. They don't. He goes."

It is the unspoken things between Mal and Inara which keep them apart.

What they both want more than anything is to resolve their relationship, but each of them is too proud to give in.

justbrowsing



"I aim to misbehave." Mal

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Is anyone else thinking 'Ninja Scroll' or is it just me?

I'm glad they didn't film it - it's too much. And its out of character for the Reavers.

___________
All guilt is relative. Loyalty counts. And never let your conscience be your guide.

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Hey Zeek... pat yourself on the back, you get some technical points. Ok so that ep aired and those other 3 didn't. My point remains valid. That kind of storytelling was the stake thru the heart of FF. Whether it aired or didn't is inmaterial to the point I'm trying to make (the show still got torpedoed). And I've never pretended to have been a fan of FF right from the beginning. In these forums, I've always been upfront about the fact that I only just discovered it shortly before the movie came out. I had abandoned SciFi since the cancellations of Farscape, Enterprise, Lexx, etc. I can only stand so much.

Sadlittleking... I agree... a debate on BSG will only sidetrack things, and frankly you wouldn't survive that debate. I've been wishing for the show's return since the 1st season got cancelled, watched the miniseries with great enthusiasm and was horribly disappointed.

I've forced myself to endure the mindcrushing boredom of the series hoping it'll get better. It just never does. It's not battlestar. Hasn't been and never will be. It's been "reimagined"... a repackaged crappy copy that stole the BSG name.

Now, back on topic...

...the episode that will never be from the show that should have been...

No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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Originally posted by huitzil:
Is anyone else thinking 'Ninja Scroll' or is it just me?

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Yes! That's the first thing that came to my mind. How did that movie end, anyway?

Unfortunately, the whole storyline seems to be in the same line of thought that Jacqui was talking about, vagina dentata, a sexy female is dangerous and ends up beaten and abused. It's very much like the misogynism in 19th century French novels. Forget about character development - whether it's sixty or six Reavers, it would practically kill a person to go through that. I can't tell you how squicked I am by the thought of it.

That said, I'm not entirely against pitting Inara against Reavers, because I would love to see how tough she is. She'd think of some way out.

Julia

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I have not read the whole thread, so this might have already been mentioned.

Someone called the idea of Inara having an anti-rape injection unrealistic. That seems like the most realistic element in the suggestion to me.

Think about what a companion is, and what she symbolizes, then think about the most likely violent crime to be inflicted upon one.

Being a companion is like hanging a sign on yourself saying, "Rape me." Obviously most are in protected places where there is little risk of such a thing, but eve so the idea that they would go out without some kind of defense is absurd.

A gun is nice, but it isn’t always good enough. If she just doesn’t want to be raped a cyanide pill would do the trick, but if she takes one she’s lost even though she might have gotten away unscathed if she had simply fought. An injection before the fight that does not kill her makes sense. Unlike a normal weapon it ensures that even if she loses the attacker will not win, and unlike cyanide or similar methods it won’t prevent her from winning.

Just as important would be knowledge, even rumored, of the injection.

There have been instances in the past, none of which I can call to mind (sorry), where a group of women believed to be the best in bed were also believed to be able to kill a man who forced sex upon her. These beliefs protected the women. A reality would protect them more.

-

As for getting only Inara, she does have the shuttle of hers. That is not always connected to the ship, by virtue of being a shuttle.

-

Someone said that it was bad that Mal treated her more nicely afterwards, but I really have trouble seeing that. The thing that is most clear (clear meaning, "painfully, blatantly and repeatedly obvious") about their relationship is that Mal is against the prestige surrounding Inara's work. He calls her a whore, yes, but that is about Inara's job (and position) and describing it without any of the illusions that have been built up around it. He’s always shown that he respects Inara herself.

We are given no details of the fight in the beginning, but just from the hand kissing thing it would seem to be about her job. In the end the job is not a factor, all else has been forcibly stripped away and she is simply Inara, so he is dealing with her person.

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Inara can't be that young. To have gone through a full training, be friends with Nandi, support Unification, and establish such a widespread client base means she's at least beyond early adulthood (our version of late 20s).

I personally find the plot-skeleton very implausible. Mal never insults or looks down on Inara as a person, only vents his frustration with her interactions and profession.

I find the idea that Reavers would get to her and still somehow be alive completely off the wall. She may have some combat training but she's no River...or even Jayne.

I find the idea that some drug would kill anyone who had sex with her extremely far-fetched and not at all a viable weapon for a Companion to be given in such a circumstance.

I find the idea that Zoe would stand up to Mal so blatantly and openly over this on the highly unlikely end of things. What reason would she have for that? Just because he insulted Inara?

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Originally posted by christhecynic:
An injection before the fight that does not kill her makes sense. Unlike a normal weapon it ensures that even if she loses the attacker will not win, and unlike cyanide or similar methods it won’t prevent her from winning.

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But how realistic is it that someone who is suddenly attacked has the time and leisure to inject themselves?

The attacker could knock her unconscious before she ever gets to the little wooden box. Plus, the needle in her box is consists of two separate parts, suggesting that she'd have to do at least a minimal amount of fiddling before she could shoot it up into her body.

It's a completely inefficient weapon, unless in an unpreventable yet expected attack, such as the Reavers, which is decidedly not the norm, and certainly not for the average Companion who dwells on a core planet.

And obviously, she can't inject the stuff before a regular client meeting. Killing them is bad for business.

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He calls her a whore, yes, but that is about Inara's job (and position) and describing it without any of the illusions that have been built up around it. He’s always shown that he respects Inara herself.

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I did concede that point later in that discussion, btw.

However, it stands to question how much his respect of her is worth when he keeps trying to shame her for her life choices.

Trust me, I ship Mal and Inara like the next fangirl, and personally I have no trouble believing that he does respect her, but the way it is sometimes put onto screen should hold up to that kind of questioning. :)

Mal may respect her, but he treats her disrespectcully regardless. That is takes this sort of attack for him to step off his judgmental high horse does not reflect very well on him, nor do I find it a particularly original idea that seeing her weak helps him develop a kinder attitude than, say, seeing her strong.

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Originally posted by EmeraldEAD:
I find the idea that Zoe would stand up to Mal so blatantly and openly over this on the highly unlikely end of things. What reason would she have for that? Just because he insulted Inara?

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Well, Mal does tend to get emotional. And even when he wants to be kind, his words don't always come out well, and some kind of fumbled apology or whatever he MIGHT say could seriously upset a shaky, traumatized Inara.

In her state, just seeing the man who keeps calling her a whore might hurt her.

I think Zoe's motivation there would be to protect Inara from anything that might irrationally upset her. Mal could certainly do that without meaning to.

So Zoe would prefer for Mal to stay out. She has never had trouble telling him when he goes too far, mostly by glaring, or leaving him behind with Jayne in "Shindig". This would be no different. :)

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
So Zoe would prefer for Mal to stay out. She has never had trouble telling him when he goes too far, mostly by glaring, or leaving him behind with Jayne in "Shindig". This would be no different. :)

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Actually Zoe works very hard NOT to tell him when he goes too far and is very cautious and apologetic when she does step towards that line (ie making the decision to come back in Out of Gas and in other places). She only makes suggestions and questions to Mal.

The act in Shindig was a very PASSIVE act, simply letting him know she was miffed.

I can't see her blatantly standing up and saying flat out no to her captain/sergeant over this. She's never felt a protector of Inara and I can't see why she would think Mal would harm her. He's the captain, if things need to be done, he needs to see them.

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Originally posted by EmeraldEAD:
Actually Zoe works very hard NOT to tell him when he goes too far and is very cautious and apologetic when she does step towards that line (ie making the decision to come back in Out of Gas and in other places). She only makes suggestions and questions to Mal.

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Actually, I think the apology in "Out of Gas" was kindly sarcastic, judging by her smile and the tone of her voice.

It's true, Zoe doesn't often directly confront Mal, but when she chooses to, she doesn't have to be overt about it. She glares let's him know she disagrees and that's all it takes. It's an explicit warning.

We haven't yet seen a situation where she would outright disagree with Mal's chosen course. That doesn't mean she wouldn't put up a fight if she truly disagreed with him.

Besides, the scene is described as this:

"Mal tries to get in to see her and Zoe tells him he’s the last person Inara needs to see. He pushes past her, kneels before Inara and kisses her hand."

This version is exactly in keeping with Zoe's M.O.

"Later, in Inara's shuttle, it's only Zoe there, guarding her silently. Mal tried to come in, and Zoe opens a can of whup ass and tells Mal no fucking way is anyone coming in."

This might just be hyperbole. Otherwise, it could also be the first time Zoe directly confronts him harshly. Not an unconceivable thing.

Besides, he does end up getting into the shuttle. That, too, would be in keeping with their characters.

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She's never felt a protector of Inara and I can't see why she would think Mal would harm her. He's the captain, if things need to be done, he needs to see them.

---

But there wouldn't exactly be anything he'd need to do in Inara's shuttle when she's "curled up and post-traumatic". I can't think of a Captain-y thing he could do there that would be for Inara's benefit.

This wouldn't be an instant of personally protecting Inara, but rather of Zoe as a woman being there for another woman. Making sure she is not alone and also keeping out further stress.

Who beside Zoe would be up for it, really?

I doubt she'd think Mal would want to harm her. But he could easily upset her without wanting to. Zoe knows that. So she tell him he should stay out.

I don't understand what would be so out of character about that.

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Besides, the scene is described as this:

"Mal tries to get in to see her and Zoe tells him he’s the last person Inara needs to see. He pushes past her, kneels before Inara and kisses her hand."

This version is exactly in keeping with Zoe's M.O.

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Ahh yes I agree. That version makes perfect sense.

Of ALL the plot ideas given, this is the only one I see likely or plausible.

I just don't see Joss putting Inara in that situation, whether it's Reavers or normal people. It would completely degrade the strength and character of Inara that has been built up (mostly in Shindig) about being able to do her business in her field as well as Mal does in his.

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This wouldn't be an instant of personally protecting Inara, but rather of Zoe as a woman being there for another woman.

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Ugh no!!!! Way too stereotypical and trite! I can see Simon doing this more than Zoe.

Anyway, who better but Zoe to know that Inara needs no protection from Mal?

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Who beside Zoe would be up for it, really?

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Simon.

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I doubt she'd think Mal would want to harm her. But he could easily upset her without wanting to. Zoe knows that. So she tell him he should stay out.

I don't understand what would be so out of character about that.

---

I can see her suggesting that he needs to stay out, yes. I can't see her in the other version of being some hulking bodyguard to the point of violence with her captain.

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Originally posted by EmeraldEAD:
I just don't see Joss putting Inara in that situation, whether it's Reavers or normal people. It would completely degrade the strength and character of Inara that has been built up (mostly in Shindig) about being able to do her business in her field as well as Mal does in his.

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I agree with that 100%. *g*

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This wouldn't be an instant of personally protecting Inara, but rather of Zoe as a woman being there for another woman.

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Ugh no!!!! Way too stereotypical and trite! I can see Simon doing this more than Zoe.

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But how is it stereotypical and trite?

If Inara was attacked by (cannibalistic, vicious) men, then a woman's presence would be automatically less threatening. We're talking, I repeat, about "shaking and post-traumatic". Subtle clues count in that state of mind.

As a woman, Zoe would also be able to relate to Inara in a way that a man cannot. It's not a stereotype, it's just a biological fact. Plus, as a veteran, she has seen post-traumatic in a way that Simon most likely hasn't.

Simon is awkward as hell. He can just barely summon the words to calm down River, and he's her brother. Medically, he's great, but interpersonally... not so much.

Not to mention, he would have been the one to treat her medically, which is also something Inara would like to distance herself from when she's supposed to get some rest and slowly calm down.

Zoe's presence would be the calmest and most neutral.

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Anyway, who better but Zoe to know that Inara needs no protection from Mal?

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That's physically speaking. I'm talking emotionally.

Mal's obvious relationship with Inara is an adversary one. Insults and power games. His more intimate moments with Inara have never been witnessed by the crew.

Zoe would hardly be able to guess that Mal is about to make a fairly significant gesture of respect toward Inara.

All she would see is that the Captain is a potentially upsetting visitor for someone who is not in a state to receive visitors, at all.

For what it's worth, I'm certain she would have sent Kaylee away, too. River, too. It's just Mal we know of here.

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
It's a completely inefficient weapon, unless in an unpreventable yet expected attack

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I think you managed to totally miss my point. Probably not your fault though. I'll try again.

Inara's job means that she will be a target for a rape, and the fact she travels by shuttle means that, provided her client isn't the one doing it (why would a client need to?), she should have ample warning.

HOWEVER in fiction and reality alike ample warning does not mean avoidably. As such in the time she has to prepare, be those preparations for fight or flight, she could easily giver herself an injection. The injection, one assumes it wears off in time, will cause no damage if she gets away or wins the fight, but will make all the difference in the world (to her attacker at least) if she loses.

She is unlikely to ever be in a situation in which she would be raped without sufficient warning, she is very likely to be in a situation where she may be raped, and though it may be only small conciliation to her it would certainly be nice to kill the ones who did it.

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However, it stands to question how much his respect of her is worth when he keeps trying to shame her for her life choices.

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I never got the impression that he was trying to shame her. Inara uses whore as a totally non-derogatory term (Heart of Gold), and I don’t see why we should assume a double standard. If Inara sees it as non-derogatory and Mal sees it as MORE socially acceptable I don’t see how you can believe that he considers it shameful.

The first time we hear him use the term whore (in the episode Serenity) his voice shows nothing but amusement at Book’s misunderstanding of the situation. There is no indication of disrespect.

When he says he’ll keep out of her “whoring” he shows in the same sentence that he considers the profession at least as respectable as thieving (Trash). In Shindig he shows that he considers whore a term that is to be used in non derogatory conversation between equals.

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Mal may respect her, but he treats her disrespectcully regardless.

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Once again I have to disagree.

Inara describes Mals attitude as a dislike of pretension (Serenity the episode, original cut) and I have never seen any evidence that it is anything else. Further it always seemed clear to me that Inara knew that too. He is not disrespecting her, he is not even disrespecting her profession (though he doesn’t seem to like it) he is merely using a more descriptive term. It’s like someone who says “shell shock” to a psychologist specializing in Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome.

Inara never shows anymore distaste than a psychologist presented with that terminology will.

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That is takes this sort of attack for him to step off his judgmental high horse does not reflect very well on him, nor do I find it a particularly original idea that seeing her weak helps him develop a kinder attitude than, say, seeing her strong.

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I hope I’ve made it clear that I never saw him being on that horse to begin with, that said I also think you miss the point of that, decidedly unoriginal, move.

When people are traumatized, especially raped, they often lose their self respect. I don’t mean the kind of self respect people toss around in casual conversation, I mean the kind of self respect that is required to be a complete person. One of the ways to help someone regain self respect is to show them respect.

There is nothing remotely kind about what Mal was to do, it was utilitarian. It is no kinder than beating a child for “his own good” when he does something wrong. If Mal was going to be kind he would have apologized, he would have talked to her, he would have done the very things we are told he was specifically not going to do.

-
-

The unoriginal idea you’re talking about, which I don’t think is included in the story based on our limited information, I have always seen as a difference not between weak and strong but rather honesty and pretence. In movi

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Originally posted by christhecynic:
Inara's job means that she will be a target for a rape, and the fact she travels by shuttle means that, provided her client isn't the one doing it (why would a client need to?), she should have ample warning.

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I am honestly not trying to be obtuse here, but could you perhaps give me an example of a situation?

One that is likely enough to cause Companions to develop a weapon of this sort? One that occurs on Core planets just as much as border planets? (Because, as I remember, your argument was that this was a Guild-produced drug.)

I honestly cannot picture a situation that isn't completely random, where Inara would know she's going to be raped yet has no way to prevent it, while still having the time to inject herself.

Also: Why does Inara's job make her a target for rape, any more than a regular high-class woman? The greatest danger and difference I see here are indeed the clients, who, as you say, would have no interest in raping her.

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I never got the impression that he was trying to shame her. Inara uses whore as a totally non-derogatory term (Heart of Gold), and I don’t see why we should assume a double standard.

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I was half-way through replying to the rest of your post until it occured to me that you might just be joking here.

Are you?

I always considered that Mal's calling her a whore was about as unquestionably disrespectful and aimed at shaming as it gets. A fact of the show.

I won't be able to sleep unless you tell me you're just kidding me. Or if you aren't.

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I won't be able to sleep unless you tell me you're just kidding me. Or if you aren't.

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Well then sleep well knowing that I am not. In the whole series we only met one friend of Inara’s, a woman of class and sophistication who she calls a whore. Long before then we saw that when Book says Mal should not have called Inara a whore her response is simple: Mal is opposed to pretence. Whenever Mal uses the word whore, or one of its many derivatives, there is no hint of disrespect in his tone.

The only time I do recall a hint of disrespect was when he asked if the distress was in someone’s pants. That’s a question that could be just as easily asked by a person who finds the career respectable (it is obviously odd for a companion to get a distress call, and humor isn’t always uncalled for), and Inara had to bait him to make him say it.

He is obviously aware of the fact that it irks her, but irking someone, even intentionally, is not the same as treating them without respect. She makes clear that she doesn’t consider the word whore derogatory, he makes clear that he does not consider it derogatory, so if neither of them thinks of it that way where is the disrespect?

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Originally posted by christhecynic:

Well then sleep well knowing that I am not.

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Oookay. I am going to argue this a little. No offense intended, just... bafflement. :)

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In the whole series we only met one friend of Inara’s, a woman of class and sophistication who she calls a whore.

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True. Inara there is using it as a descriptive to separate Companions from regular prostitutes.

It is noteworthy here that Mal mentions that he thought she wasn't fond of the word. That he is susprised she would use it at all. That's not how he'd react with a neutral descriptor.

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Long before then we saw that when Book says Mal should not have called Inara a whore her response is simple: Mal is opposed to pretence.

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Actually, her response is "Believe me, I've called him worse."

Implying that "whore" is at the very least bad.

When she came aboard, she specified that he cannot call her whore. Looking less than thrilled to have to do so.

Even IF he didn't consider the word derrogatory in reference to Inara, it is disrespectful of him to call her something she has clearly told him not to.

She always reacts negatively, and not just with mild annoyance. In "Serenity" she turns right around from walking down the stairs to back up, refusing to meet the rest of the passengers. Her mood goes from cheerful to chilly and she throws the word back at him, without smiling, in a way that shows she took offense.

In "Shindig" her friendly fencing lesson turns to icy anger, prompting the entire discussion about respect and disrespect to even come up.

Before, when they are dancing, he continuously takes jabs at her. "You have no right to try and make me feel ashamed of my work." Inara says. "What I do is legal. And how's that smuggling coming along?"

These are two people insulting each other.

In "Trash" she says "That didn't take long!" when he drops the word. An expected insult.

In "The Message", when Mal refuses her help to protect her career, she replies "The career you abhor and look down on?" He doesn't deny that in the least.

It is fairly clear that Inara feels offended, even hurt when he calls her a whore, precisely because of the words traditional connotations.

IF Mal didn't intend to offend her, it'd be callous to continue doing so. Both ways aren't exactly glowing with respect.

Quote:

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Whenever Mal uses the word whore, or one of its many derivatives, there is no hint of disrespect in his tone.

---

Sarcasm? Context?

The first time he does, he's offended by her Alliance ties. "I imagine you're not the only whore that did [support unification]."

In "Serenity" he sets up her profession as a crass contrast to the Shepherd's misunderstanding. He doesn't allow Inara to explain herself, he cuts in with a word that carries some clearly derrogatory connotations, meaning he wanted the contrast to be crass.

Ambassador = good.
Contrast: whore = bad.

When he says "whoring" in Trash, he is clearly agitated and offended by her interference in his own work.
He does call YoSaffBridge a whore when she flies off in his shuttle. Obviously meant as an insult then, too.

Oh, and in the little blurb at the top of this thread, he clearly makes a distinction between "whore" and "lady". He doesn't take that distinction away, he just ends up demonstratingthat he considers her the former rather than the latter.

If whore was a neutral descriptor, there would be no need for the distinction.

In fact, that entire episode idea is built on the assumption that Mal's use of the words is meant as offensive.

Quote:

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She makes clear that she doesn’t consider the word whore derogatory, he makes clear that he does not consider it derogatory, so if neither of them thinks of it that way where is the disrespect?

---

I simply do believe that he means to be derrogatory when using the word on her. And that Inara regards it as offensive when applied to her. Because she is not a whore, in h

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Quote:

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:


Simon is awkward as hell. He can just barely summon the words to calm down River, and he's her brother. Medically, he's great, but interpersonally... not so much.

---

Simon's only awkward outside of his field. In the infirmary, or the hospital on Ariel, he's as confident as Mal. I suspect if Simon found himself guarding a Reaved woman's door he'd be perfectly at home resisting all attempts to do anything that would damage her condition.

That said, Zoe is more likely to do the guarding.

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I’m going to stop this, we obviously see it very differently intereptreting exactly the same things in different ways is not going to make progress. However I would like to say two things:

The first is that when I say something I mean it. I said that she mentioned pretence in the original cut, and I meant the original cut. He exact words were, “He dislikes pretension.” When I mentioned that exact same scene again it was still in the original cut, as you have pointed out there is not possible reason to believe that I had switched to the final cut because pretension is not mentioned in it.

If you wanted to argue that the original cut doesn’t apply that would have been fine.
It is certainly a valid argument. However when you completely ignored what I actually said that was rude.

-

The second is that words are not absolute, I once knew two friends who referred to one another as nigger and cracker. In that particular situation between those specific people those words, highly negative connotations and all, were non-derogatory.

What is in a dictionary or the public mind today may not apply later. I thought it was made clear that it didn't apply by Inara’s reference of Nandi as a whore and Mal’s placing whoring equal to thieving (the present connotation of whore is much more negative than thief.)

I may be completely wrong, but I still think you are in error assuming that a word will always have the exact meanings that you personally associate with it.

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You are right, we see things very very differently.

I wasn't aware that an original cut of the scene existed, nor did you specify that you were referring to a version other than the one that aired. I don't see how I was rude in not knowing you were referring to something other than the aired version?

Quote:

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I may be completely wrong, but I still think you are in error assuming that a word will always have the exact meanings that you personally associate with it.

---

It is not about me personally. I was referring to the many levels of meaning associated with the word "whore" and the fact that more than one level is at play in the show between Mal and Inara.



Let's agree to disagree.

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Quote:

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If this was truly a legitimate episode suggestion, then I imagine it was going to be polished up a LOT more.


There's some holes in that story that have me cringing.

Not so much the idea of rape, although the scenario does have some rather badfic connotations. (I agree with Jacqui there.)

Nor the Zoe thing, because of everyone aboard Serenity she is probably most equipped to deal with a traumatized, sane, adult female. Kaylee's too emotional, River too unstable. Not to mention, who knows what she has seen in the war?


But the rape-kit of death... uh... Not seriously, right?

What creeps me out is the whole handkiss idea.

A healthy happy Inara is a whore but a traumatized, abused Inara is suddenly worth more than that? I'd expect Inara waking up at that moment and slapping Mal square in the face for the implication.

I could imagine that being filmed more subtly than it is described here, making it more obvious that it's a throwaway line he doesn't mean, or something..

But that's still a really clumsy way to highlight the whole sex vs. power vs. morals vs. hypocrisy thing. At least when it comes to Mal's perspective.

---

I agree with you about most all of what you said, this would be a good episode cause most if not all we have see is the alliance its crulety and the core and how bad they are... not much badness is shown of the freedomes of the rim with the exception of some criminals and savagase they could out fly... now it truely show the potesial crulety of it. don't get me wrong i love Inara she is my favorite character... it hurt to read that, but she is strong and inside probibly the only thing that kept her alive was the fact that she knew she had killed her violators. she is a strong woman and a real fighter and protector much like mal only she fights the instict to become tied to this family so she leaves. and i agree Zo would be best equipt and she would help Inara trying to keep mal out seeinga as that might just be a moment inara would not want to see mal.
now for the whole rape kit of death thing as you put it i think it is ok, i would want to kill any one that touched me. i am sure i am not the only woman who feels that, and i think it would be a good idea and probibly a known fact amongst some folk in the core worlds that some compainions are traind in the arts of poison. it is a steriotyped thing you know poison and women. I am sure that is how the crew found out that she had something that could kill a rapest, also Inara even if she is a buddhist always seemed to want some sort of revenge. like with niska her words were something like "i am sory you did not kill that (insert manderin curse here)" yeah so goal drivin and strong would not die from rape only change even from reavers.

Ok next I think if you looked at it the way you looked at it i agree with you but i looked at it another way... i thought Mal told her she was a whore not a lady and basicly the hand kissing is a sign of a lady. She got taken and that was the last thing she heard from him that she was not a lady... they get her back but broken and he feels awful knowing he was wrong she is a lady he was just being a mean jerk! and so as a read in another journal about this he gets on his knees and kissis her hand to show that she is a lady, and that he is sorry perhaps. we all know he cares for her and she said she was going to leave if we assume that this did not take place that much time after the last episodes we cans y that perhaps Mal was even angry at her for leaving and was just being a royal butt. Any way i put me in his place, he loves her that is a givin since not many would go face reavers for just any one. and since he loves her he want to help her show her he loves her and stuff.

I know that the two character have problems with one another... but the main problem is not mal's rudeness, but rather Inaras hesitation and even fear of getting tied down. he was going to tell her before that he loves her but she told him she is leaving. So yes i think bad way to get together or to eve

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Huh...

I kind of looked at the relationship between Mal and Inara as a bit childish in some ways.

Look at little kids in a school yard. A little boy, liking a particular little girl but not having learned yet how to show that appropriately may simply hit the girl or put gum in her hair etc... It's the only way he has of interacting with her. It's not that he wants to hurt her. It's simply that he feels the need to be around her and having her angry at him is better than having her ignore him and he has not yet learned enough to intereact with her at a more mature level yet.

After Serenity Valley, Mal became emotionaly closed off in many ways. Then Inara comes along and he feels things for her but, much like the little boy, has no way to express those emotions "properly" at the moment. But because they are so strong, those emotions will come out. One way or another which takes the form of their adversarial relationship.

It's in times of great danger that we see his defenses come down and his true feelings come to the surface as in the scene where he asks her to take the civilians and run in the shuttle towords the end of the pilot episode.

dc4bs

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Quote:

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Originally posted by dc4bs:

Huh...

I kind of looked at the relationship between Mal and Inara as a bit childish in some ways.

Look at little kids in a school yard. A little boy, liking a particular little girl but not having learned yet how to show that appropriately may simply hit the girl or put gum in her hair etc... It's the only way he has of interacting with her. It's not that he wants to hurt her. It's simply that he feels the need to be around her and having her angry at him is better than having her ignore him and he has not yet learned enough to intereact with her at a more mature level yet.

After Serenity Valley, Mal became emotionaly closed off in many ways. Then Inara comes along and he feels things for her but, much like the little boy, has no way to express those emotions "properly" at the moment. But because they are so strong, those emotions will come out. One way or another which takes the form of their adversarial relationship.

It's in times of great danger that we see his defenses come down and his true feelings come to the surface as in the scene where he asks her to take the civilians and run in the shuttle towords the end of the pilot episode.

dc4bs

---

Ok i agree with you on this or rather i used to think that thier relatiionship was like that but it is only a little like that. Mal was raised by his mom and no dad just plenty of ranch hands as exampels of a male person. he probibly knows a thing or two about ladys, he was just some what hardend by the war and well Inara suported unification. that is one thing between them, they don't hate each other or even dislike each other a little bit he just likes to tease her, not because he is no good with woman folk but because Inara has sort of built this who its business not personal relationship thing to sort of protect her emotionaly. she was not looking for ties when she left she was looking for solitude and freedom even. she was trying to grow by her lonesome and some how this crew and ship became her family and home. two things she was not looking for, yet she found she had, and was trying so hard to pretend she did not have. The whole invasion of privacy and even haveing her partake in criminal activities with the crew, that was mal pushing her to test her and to break her lie. that was mals way of saying its personal admit it and inata saying no it business so quit it! Then in situations where she dissagred with mal she tried to use her vote as if she were part of the crew even if the whole time she denide it. for example when mal was going to throw of the Tams she said she would go too, and mal not wanting her to try and threatin him when she always played it like she was not part of the crew basicly said fine you don't want to be here any way and you don't belong here. (I am painting Inara like a real coward and a flake but in reality she had her good reasons to act this way.) Mal also has a sort of backgroud of being a tough love sort of guy, he yells and is hard on the people he cares about the most. he is just hard with each of them in his own way, with inara he really, really likes her... and the both know they like each other they just get caught in the silly game of you love me -no i dont- fine i dont love you either- yes you do-and you love me- no i dont now leave me alone-fine what ever but you still love me-and you love me but we are sooo not going to talk about it ok- what ever you love me like i said-you are anoying! and disrespectful-you sleep with other people even though you dont love them- so sex is not bad, stealing is!- at least its honest not a big lie- what do you care its none of your business!- i dont like you your a whore - i am not a whore and so much for being honest!- whore- petty- whore- OUT!- this is my shuttel- i am renting it so out!- Fine! we are landing in an hour(you know i did not mean it you just sort of get under my skin but i like you and respect you)-thank you now leave so i can get ready for my 'whoring' (you know i dont want to talk about it and all you d

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I'm a delicate soul, if they had filmed that I would've stopped watching the show. Break her heart, chop off an arm, even kill her, but for god's sake, rape?

Reavers are my least fave thing in the verse and this would have put me off for good!

I am sure it would have been fantastic story-telling though - if it was allowed on air and this isn't a wind-up.

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Emma that theoretically smacks of cowardice. FF was never the "Leave it to Beaver" family flying thru space in a perfect universe. It was dark and very modernthinking scifi, where people are reduced down to their basic instincts instead of being the enlightened noble-hearted futuristic types from Star Trek. They say 1 in 5 women in the US are raped in their lifetime. You think that'll change dramatically even after we start flying into space?

If instead of Inara (theoretically), it had been a character from any show you casually watch in passing and whom you could care less about, would the storyline have been bareable?

I think if the ep had ever been made and aired, it would have been the singlemost thoughtprovoking treatment of the subject I'd ever theoretically seen. But alas, the show ceases to be.

No show on television these days that isn't a sitcom or a happy family 'qualude' avoids the subject. All your cop, doctor, and lawyer shows shamelessly exploit the subject every week or month or so. And those constitute damned near everything on TV it seems. Well, those percentages aren't counting reality shows. And even those now are getting into rape (MTV's real world?). It virtually never shows up in scifi. When it has (like in BSG), it's just tacky.

XG


No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by XeroGravity:
Emma that theoretically smacks of cowardice. ....

If instead of Inara (theoretically), it had been a character from any show you casually watch in passing and whom you could care less about, would the storyline have been bareable?

No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

---

Cowardice it may be but I don't care. The one thing I draw the line at watching is sexual abuse. That's my problem not yours.

It wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference which character it was, or indeed, what show. I can't cope watching, reading or hearing about any form of sexual abuse. Personally, I think that makes me a healthy human being.

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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For those of you calling us cowards for disliking this:

We like Firefly because of who the characters are, and because of the tone of the show. If Mal was all happy fun, or River was sane, or Kaylee was a total bitch or not even there, it wouldn't be the same show. Same for if Inara was a quivering wreck instead of the defensive, professional Companion she is.

Furthermore, after Objects in Space this episode would be very out of place. Even after the BDM, assuming that to be the end of season 2. Which means either this episode would have been really out of place and thus none too good, or the series would have had to take a dramatic turn for the darker over a longer period of time to fit this in.

Saying "If the show was very different, I wouldn't like it" is different from saying "Waah, bad stuff happened to Inara."

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To me, shying away from this is cowardice. That isn't meant to some subversive promotion of rape. It's just hipocrisy. Laundry list time... what have we seen in the show? Shootings, stabbings, torture by electrocution, and Mal's ear cut off.

Is any of this less monstrous and barbaric then rape? It's funny how desensitized to that kind of savagery people become when they find it entertaining.

It's ok when it's one of the above but never rape. And the notion that women who've had that horror visited on them should expect it to never show up in good storytelling because of it's emotional significance doesn't fly with me. Murder, torture, etc... all of that is ok but no rape, never rape. Newp. Women are 50 percent plus of the marketing demographic.

Plenty of people have had friends and loved ones die senselessly (many having been tortured and murdered), and reenacting it is run-of-the-mill fare for everyday TV. It's ok... they can bare it.

I think IF this had ever made it into the screen, it would have been one of the most interesting things I'd ever seen on TV. Mal routinely calls Inara a whore... she is, afterall, a "high class" hooker, if there is such a thing. So very Geisha. He's obviously attracted to her, but disgusted by the way she sells her carnal treasure (oh virtue, where forth art thou?). He's living in a time where her profession is regarded as a thing that is prestigious. We'll probably see that become a reality of our day ~ probably before my young life is at an end, the way things seem to be going. 10 years ago "pimp" was a title on par with a child molester. Now it's hip to be "pimp".

Sorry... maybe I'm prematurely out of step with the generational gap but I will never "get it" when it comes to pimping being a cool thing.

That's part of the appeal to me where Mal is concerned. Even in an age where it's hip and the height of higher culture to be a "companion", he's a throwback to a time where you'd call a whore a whore. She's motivated by money to satisfy men's libidinous needs. And he does call her a whore all the time. That was a gutsy part of the show's plot in and of itself.

Only Whedon and Minear could have broached the subject on the next level (the whole Inara abduction and reaver gangrape thing). They were always "Take no prisoners" when it came to writing a truly good story (at least where Firefly is concerned). It would have been brilliant. That's why it got the deep-six.

Someone earlier in the thread asked how people would feel if it had been Jayne in place of Inara in this theoretical storyline. That is a line of thought worth pursuing. I have to admit, it was worthy of a chuckle (not the idea of it, rather the idea someone would suggest it). Manrape is infinitely more taboo (unless it's a prison shower scene with no soap-on-a-rope).

XG


No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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It's not cowardice to object to a dramatic change in the tone of a show you like because of its tone. I'm not squeamish about rape, I just think that this scene is too dark for Firefly as is, and if Firefly were dark enough for this to fit in I wouldn't enjoy it.

As to those people on this thread who are squeamish, if indeed there are any, I agree with you there. But that's not what my issue is.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by XeroGravity:
That's part of the appeal to me where Mal is concerned. Even in an age where it's hip and the height of higher culture to be a "companion", he's a throwback to a time where you'd call a whore a whore. She's motivated by money to satisfy men's libidinous needs. And he does call her a whore all the time. That was a gutsy part of the show's plot in and of itself.

---

I agree with pretty much everything you said, but the above part caught my interest.

Why is it so gutsy for Mal to make no distinction between an ordinary street (or brothel) prostitute and a Companion as defined by the show?`

I don't consider either immoral or offensive professions, btw, but I do think there is a difference.

Companions are highly educated and trained and their education does play a large role in their work, along with their bodies, in a way that isn't the case with the prostitutes that, say, Jayne visits.

Is her job only defined by the fact that sex is sold? Is the rest of the experience completely irrelevant? Is it automatically demeaning because she chooses to sell sex along with her other services?

I always considered the two different job titles to be somewhat like the difference between a restaurant and a hotel. You can get food at both places, but the hotel also offers you a lot more, and you can't just call it a restaurent anymore.

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I think the injection could be a valid weapon. There are two angles you guys haven't mentioned.

1.) The injection is not the weapon, but the antidote. Maybe each companion is given a rape drug and only when they take the antidote is it ok for them to sleep with someone for a period of time.

2.) Perhaps the drug is not a rape weapon at all, but an assasin weapon. We still don't know why Inara left the companion house. Perhaps she was told to use the weapon against someone and refused. Maybe she loved the person. Maybe the drug is constantly in the blood stream and would end her career. That would also explain the look on her face when she looked at the syringe. It would also make for quite a different storyline for Inara after the proposed episode.

Just some ideas. I'm sure Joss could come up with plenty of other twists and turns.

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Wow! I'm completely of two minds on this one. On one hand:

This sounds like a completely absurd, forced, and unrealistic concept. If it were a fanfic description I wouldn't even bother clicking on the thing. With what we've been told of reavers, it's hard for me to imagine anyone surviving that. This would also be way too dark and gruesome for my taste; heck, even the movie was a bit dark for me.

On the other hand: If well written and acted, this could be an incredibly emotional and powerful episode. It is hard to imagine they would go that far, but some very shocking things have happened in Firefly/Serenity.

Take Mal's torture scene. He's our beloved Captain, the star of the show. They electrocuted him, cut off his ear, and did all manner of other horrible things to him....not to mention he died. Speaking here as a female, I'd have to say that what Mal went through had to be at least as bad as being raped, and maybe even on a par with being raped by reavers.

But what could have been strictly a gratuitous and sadistic torture scene (think 24, Alias) became the catalyst for one of the most moving and even funny episodes. Perhaps this could do the same.

Just think of the emotional impact of not only having Inara go through that, but to see the crew risk their worst fear in the verse to rescue her; then, Mal kneeling down and kissing her hand? The idea of him abandoning his refusal to show his feelings, and doing something so simple and sweet and respectful as that is amazing. I have a feeling we'd all be in tears.

In a way, it would be classic Firefly; a dark, cold story with a loving heart.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

Zoe necklace replica and other jewelry at www.exoticcatz.com/fireflyshop , Firefly/Serenity images at www.exoticcatz.com/fireflyphotos>

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AGENTTROUKA:

To answer your questions one by one...

I never said it was gutsy for mal to distinguish Inara being any different from a common street whore. Quite the opposite. She spreads her legs for money. It's all equally disgraceful to me. Could care less if she's supermodel beautiful and cultured like a japanese geisha, or a streetcorner heroine junkie looking for the next fix. She has a pricetag.

I'm no angel but I have my moral limits. In fact, my life is probably one long orgy of heathenistic perversity. But, a whore is a whore is a whore.

To answer your other questions...

(1) "Is her job only defined by the fact that sex is sold?"

Umm... yes.

(2) "Is the rest of the experience irrelevant?"

Umm... yes. Unless you believe money can buy you love. It's a cheap memory. Although in reality, for most men to get a woman that looks like Morena Baccarin in bed would require substantial sums of cash. Or boatloads of beer and a very desperate and blind woman.

(3) "Is it automatically demeaning because she chooses to sell sex along with her other services?"

Umm... yes.

What other services? Massage, flattery, company paid for by the hour (oh wait I'm sorry, she's a "companion").


The real issues here isn't whether or not she's a whore. It's how Mal viewing her as such will think of her AFTER the whole reaver abduction and gangrape thing. It's about whether or not she'll keep selling her sexual favors for money after undergoing that ordeal. Etc. It's a social studies lesson on how many people are willing to justify the oldest profession in the world as moral.

Ahh the good old days, when men were men and women were property.

It would have been interesting if it had moved out of the realm of theory.

XG


No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by XeroGravity:
AGENTTROUKA:
It's a social studies lesson on how many people are willing to justify the oldest profession in the world as moral.

Ahh the good old days, when men were men and women were property.

---

I don't quite understand, though... Why is it immoral? Why does it need justifying?

It's her body. And she herself chooses to provide a service with it. How does that make her property any more than a nurse, a counselor or a babysitter?

Who is she harming? And if not, why is it immoral?

Why is the sex the one defining feature? What is so hackle-raising about sex that it stops all the presses and makes everything else fade into the background as completely irrelevant?

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I'm sorry dude. I've seen the errors of my ways. Your continual re-asking of question I've just got done answering has somehow undermined the entire basis of my reasoning.

I agree with you now. Women should sell sexual favors. It's a hallmark of their independance, and sign of their strength. We should deem it the new crest of feminism. Equality is measured in dollars at the end of the day.

Find me some strong women and line them up for auction. The more I have to pay for them, the more I'll come to respect them as selfwilled and independantly strong.

If you don't get it, you just don't get it.

Actually, you've probably been spending too much time in college classrooms. Escape the mold, and maybe one day you will get it.

XG

Socratic irony only works on me when it comes from Socrates. And he's getting kinda moldy these days.

No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by XeroGravity:
Actually, you've probably been spending too much time in college classrooms. Escape the mold, and maybe one day you will get it.

---

My, aren't you a cheery person.

"You don't get it" is absolutely a respectable and mature response to a serious question, isn't it?

Nicely frees you from the responsibility of having to actually, you know, try and explain your reasoning.

Oh, and the personal insults heighten your appeal even more.

I'm charmed.


How about you come back when you are actually able to form a rational response. If you have a good reason, it should be possible to put it into words, right, without hiding it behind lots of evasive nothingness?

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(Then the Reavers attack and take Inara. While trying to get her back they learn that she had something that would make anyone who had sex with her die.)

Was that what the syringe was we see her with on the pilot epidoe? I thought that was a quick and painless death

[edit] okay, I didn't see that little paragraph underneath the main one, until I wrote what I thought

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The politicians idea of "giving the finger", is pushing the big red button....

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Quote:

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Is her job only defined by the fact that sex is sold? Is the rest of the experience completely irrelevant? Is it automatically demeaning because she chooses to sell sex along with her other services?

I always considered the two different job titles to be somewhat like the difference between a restaurant and a hotel. You can get food at both places, but the hotel also offers you a lot more, and you can't just call it a restaurent anymore.

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Correct me if I am wrong, but I can't remember one time that Inara met a client and didn't have sex with them (maybe not with the woman; I can't remember if she stayed the night or not). This is because her clients approach her for basically one reason - sex, just like a prostitute. The differences (her education and other services) do not make her job role different; they just make her more desirable to the prospective clientele than an ordinary prostitute.

It's not like comparing a hotel to a restaurant: it's like comparing a high class restaurant which offers 5 course meals, better food and nice atmosphere to a crummy diner with a rude waitress who doesn't really want to serve you; or a high class hotel with a jacuzzi, tennis courts, room service and really nice rooms to a crappy motel that only provides a dirty, uncomfortable room and nothing else: A rich man wouldn't go near the crummy diner or crappy motel if he could go to a high class restaurant or hotel, just like in Firefly they'd choose a companion over a common prostitute.

You go to a diner to get food, same as a restaurant; you go to a motel to get a room and bed for the night, just like a hotel; and you go to a prostitute for sex, just like a companion. The restaurant, hotel and companion just offer more services as well as their primary function and cost a whole lot more for the luxury, so rich people view them as more acceptable; but they all do the exact same basic job as their crappy counterparts. In the eyes of someone who didn't care about all the luxuries and quality of the product and just wanted the basic product being sold, a restaurant is the same as a diner, a hotel is the same a motel and a companion is the same as a prostitute - the quality and luxuries added in do not make the fundamental product different, just a whole lot more desirable.

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Well, I'd consider the way she counselled Fess Higgins in "Jaynestown" to be a pretty good example of hotel vs. restaurant.

Her real service to him wasn't the sex. It was showing him that a) sex had nothing to do with being an adult, and b) that he could be strong enough to stand up to his father if he dared.

That was a psychological service more than anything else. Try getting that with a regular prostitute.

The fact that she did also have sex with him doesn't detract from that in any way. So why is it only the sex that would count in that scenario?


Besides, I'm not arguing that a Companion is not a prostitute! She is!

I am arguing that a companion is a different kind of prostitute than what is commonly referred to as "whore", and that neither of those professions are deserving of the derrogatory connotations attached to them.

Basically, I am saying that Mal is wrong to call her a "whore" when she isn't. Just like a calling a restaurant a "diner" isn't applicable when it's a five-star eatery, to use your example.

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Clearly you're educated. Medically educated. Don't answer a question direct. You just answer a question with a question. Your education tells you to do so. Freud and his copycats would be proud. Maybe you went down this road, went med school, then backtracked and went psychiatrist.

You're either a community college psychologist, or a med school psychiatrist.

Remain aloof and take a stand on nothing. Nothing is philosphically everything. It's the whole source of your paycheck. Existence is a question mark, but your authority is absolute. Letters behind your name say so.

You're are a protected species of human being. Never answer any questions and you will always remain as such.

Your term paper is always overdue.

Go malpractice somewhere else. Skull jockeys are all alike. Never an answer... just more and more questioning.

XG

(or you're just an exceptionally brilliant and clairvoyantly lucky genuine nutcake).

No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks. Unless you find a questionable psycho-professional (psycho-anything).

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