My least understood River's

POSTED BY: ManiacNumberOne
UPDATED: Saturday, April 15, 2006 02:40
VIEWED: 22577
PAGE 1 of 1

MANIACNUMBERONE

Thursday, July 31, 2003 8:14 AM

Here I am again asking y'all a question about this show that seems to dominate my life.
So, I'm watching Shindig again for the umpteenth time and as always I can make no sense at all about River's scene in the galley, where she is taking the labels off the cans of food. I don't have a great tape of it, so it's hard to hear everything she is saying, but I made out parts of it and it doesn't make too much sense with what she is doing to the cans. Why is she doing what she's doing? I know her words are fragmented, but believe it or not, most of the time she has made sense to me. I am just curious what y'all might think is up with this.

FLYINFREE

Thursday, July 31, 2003 8:25 AM

She is removing the Blue Sun logo from all the cans. The same reason she slashes Jayne's shirt, it has a Blue Sun logo on it.

Still flyin'...

MANIACNUMBERONE

Thursday, July 31, 2003 8:41 AM

I like your theory. I know that the Blue Sun logo is on just about everything, but I didn't really notice any prevalence of Blue Sun logo's on any of the cans she was ripping at.

FLYINFREE

Thursday, July 31, 2003 8:46 AM

I couldn't see the logos on the cans either, I just read a post somewhere that said that was the reason. Had no reason to doubt it.

Still flyin'...

BARNEYT

Thursday, July 31, 2003 12:44 PM

And this reason's probably a good one - however, there's no reason why all of River's episodes should be easily explainable.

(Allow for the fact that I haven't seen the last two episodes yet, so if anything's explained there I won't know about it! )

But my understanding of what River is going through is that it is so extreme, that there may not be a direct correlation between what she thinks and what she actually does. It could be something as small as the colours causing odd reactions in her brain that means she need to get rid of the labels because she sees that as a way of getting rid of the pain.

After all, when she's slices Jayne's tee-shirt, what she says is 'he looks better in red', which makes me think she was reacting to something other than just the Alliance symbol.

I think relating her actions simply back to the Alliance symbols is simplifying it too much.

Then again, if that original post you read, FlyinFree, was written by Joss, then I'm obviously wrong and all the above burbling should be ignored...

LJC

Thursday, July 31, 2003 3:17 PM

Actually, I think it was Jose Molina, in either an interview or a series of posts on TWoP...

--
Some take the high road. Some take the low road.
And some just go screaming down the highway, dropping flaming bits of wreckage.

TALRIUS

Thursday, July 31, 2003 5:48 PM

Here's what she says Maniac.

RIVER
There it is, there it is. It's
always there if you look for it.
Everybody sees and nobody sees it...

These are the ones that take you!
Little ones in the corner that you
almost don't see. But they're the
ones that reach in and do it.
They're the ones with teeth and you
have to smash them!

A million things, and the
little ends of the roots go
everywhere and when you
brush your teeth or all the
little blue things are
there but no one says it
because, because sometimes
they're afraid. And then
they come....

CHANNAIN

Thursday, July 31, 2003 7:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
I like your theory. I know that the Blue Sun logo is on just about everything, but I didn't really notice any prevalence of Blue Sun logo's on any of the cans she was ripping at.

One has to wonder how long it would have taken them to figure out what her trigger was. Then how much stuff they would have to River-proof by removing the Blue Sun logo. Woulda liked to have seen that.

“We three are the only ones in this place wearing brown. Means we’ve found something worth fighting for.
Something worth being more than alive for.”
Sarahetc

MANIACNUMBERONE

Thursday, July 31, 2003 7:51 PM

Thanks everybody for your expert responses. Seeing the actual words River was saying certainly cleared things up a bit. talrius=shiny. Once again I feel like posting a question here was an excellent idea. I am flabbergasted... maybe flummoxed is a better word. I am very pleased, let's leave it at that.

Question about Inara while I have you here. Does anybody else get the idea that the persons who are in the most high companion guild positions are men? I was thinking about Inara, and I keep getting the feeling she doesn't want to be a companion.

WHOODAHN

Thursday, July 31, 2003 8:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyinFree:
She is removing the Blue Sun logo from all the cans. The same reason she slashes Jayne's shirt, it has a Blue Sun logo on it.

I hadn't thought of that. Now I have a couple of questions.

Is the Blue Sun part of the Alliance or is it a massive/powerful shipping company?

Do the Blue Hands work for the Alliance or Blue Sun?

Does the Alliance do what Blue Sun tells them to do, is it another case of big business controlling the military?

SERENITYVALLEY

Friday, August 1, 2003 1:07 AM

I just saw that episode again about ten minutes ago, before I even read this post. The Blue Sun thing is definately what came to mind after hearing that one interview on the Fox site. When she moves on from the cans, there's a bunch of tiny packages with Blue Sun logos on them. I too was trying to understand what she was saying, but I couldn't make it out. Thanks for the translation.

"I Jonathan Donnely take you Sharon Carter to be my lawful wedded bride. To hold and to have. Whether we have money or not. Whether you're feeling not well or well. Until one of us is dead." --Nathan Fillion (Two Guys and a Girl)

MELEAUX

Friday, August 1, 2003 2:33 AM

ok I just purchased two blue sun t-shirts Should I be worried that I am aligning myself with the Alliance?
By the way I did vote for unification

She understands, she doesn't comprehend

TALRIUS

Friday, August 1, 2003 3:20 AM

No, Jayne wore one so I don't think there's anything to worry over. Now if you find yourself wearing black suits and blue latex gloves then I'd think you should worry.

SERENITYVALLEY

Monday, August 4, 2003 9:02 PM

Oh! I got it.
I think she IS having a reaction to the Blue Sun when she slashes Jayne for this reason: His shirt is Blue Sun (as we've already said), but BLUE sun, and she doesn't like Blue Sun therefor he looks better in RED. Blue? Red? Get it? Don't say I'm stretching it. Just think about it.

"I Johnny Donnely take you Sharon Carter to be my lawful wedded bride. To hold and to have. Whether we have money or not. Whether you're feeling not well or well. Until one of us is dead." --Nathan Fillion (Two Guys and a Girl)

CHRISTHECYNIC

Monday, August 4, 2003 9:21 PM

I always thought that she slashed Jayne because he was fixin to betray them.

Jayne’s blood was dark red, and dark red is associated with rage, anger, malice, and wrath.

If I had a psychic premonition that someone was going to send me back to torture and pain I would be angry and enraged. That would "color" how I saw them, her action was wrathful, and Jayne was malicious.

Her action brought (symbolicly) what was inside of him (malice) out, let other people see him the way she looked at him (anger, rage) and brought her wrath aupon him while showing it in the blood she let out.

Normaly I ignore color meanings but it is River we're talking aobut, she would know all this.

BLACKSTAR

Monday, August 4, 2003 9:51 PM

'Course, she could of just been playing some kind of game... coloring without the crayons, so to speak. With River, you never can tell.

BOUNTYBOY56

Tuesday, August 5, 2003 2:58 AM

And that, my fellow browncoats, is what makes this show so great. Who woulda thought a little thing like what's on Jaynes shirt or what kind of food River was tearing up could be such a huge thing and give people so many ideas and theories. Its the subtle things that are really huge sleeping plot twists that make this show amazing. I say once again, DAMN YOU FOX!

DRAKON

Tuesday, August 5, 2003 9:35 AM

I always thought that she slashed Jayne because he was fixin to betray them.

Ya know, I got the impression that Jayne betrayed them on Ariel BECAUSE River slashed him. We are in chicken and egg territory here.

"my kind of stupid"

ZARQUON

Tuesday, August 5, 2003 10:41 AM

An image of the ship the blue hands guys flew in Ariel was released a while ago, which was titled the Blue Sun Ship. Kinda makes it obvious that they work for Blue Sun. (Although I know it was never said in an episode). That being the case, it's pretty easy to deduce why River would have so much animosity towards anything Blue Sun related.

VAMPBUNNY

Wednesday, August 6, 2003 4:35 AM

River could not be reacting to Jayne's thought of betraying them. Because at that time only Innara was getting off the ship. Mal had just told everyone they could not get off, he didn't even want them looking out the window.

It was not until Simon came to them after Mal told him to keep River locked up and if he could not find a way to control they would have re-visit the deal they made, that Jayne even had a chance to betray them.

So it had to be the Blue Sun logo she was reacting.

Sure getting stabbed may have made the idea pop in his mind when he saw a chance. But unless River was just reacting to his general dislike of them being on board. I still say it was the t-shirt.

Keep Flying. See you in the world

SAKRYSTA

Thursday, August 7, 2003 2:15 PM

Ah, but River has displayed precognitive abilities as well. In "Objects in Space" as she's wandering around the ship, she "hears" people say things that they have said in the PAST, are thinking but not saying, and will say in the FUTURE.

...still a little whimsical in the brain pan...

CHRISTHECYNIC

Thursday, August 7, 2003 8:36 PM

I got the impression from how Jayne spoke to the person he arranged it with that he had been planing it for quite a while, it was just that this was the perfect opportunity.

SIRENKAIN

Friday, August 8, 2003 2:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
I got the impression from how Jayne spoke to the person he arranged it with that he had been planing it for quite a while, it was just that this was the perfect opportunity.

Jayne may have been planning it but the River attack decided it. I don't think the fact that River attacked him is what pissed him off (I mean besides being attacked). I think he was more upset that Mal took it so lightly. Mal gets his dander up when any one of his crew is hurt or threaten. He brushed aside the River/Jayne incident like Jayne was not as important as anyone else. I think Jayne was hurt (feelings I mean) and was trying to fix Mal more then River.

My question to the Group - Where the hell was I that I miised all the Blue SUn Stuff? Where did they start using it? Must have been gazing at Jayne and forgot to pay attention.

Morbid and creep-ifying I got no problem with.

AMNESIAC

Monday, February 2, 2004 9:56 AM

They made it very clear that Jane was wearing a Blue Sun logo when River slashed his chest.

They didn't show the blue sun logo when she was tearing off the labels of the cans. So methinks the label tearing incident had more to do with the nature of labels and cans, or surfaces and contents.

If Blue Sun was trying to make Summer into a psychic assasin in the body of a pretty girl:

These are the ones that take you!
Little ones in the corner that you
almost don't see. But they're the
ones that reach in and do it.
They're the ones with teeth and you
have to smash them!

Is she talking about what they were turning her into? They were trying to change the contents of her can?

spaceships, gunfights, and the human condition what more could you want?

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, February 2, 2004 4:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Talrius:
Here's what she says Maniac.

RIVER
There it is, there it is. It's
always there if you look for it.
Everybody sees and nobody sees it...

These are the ones that take you!
Little ones in the corner that you
almost don't see. But they're the
ones that reach in and do it.
They're the ones with teeth and you
have to smash them!

A million things, and the
little ends of the roots go
everywhere and when you
brush your teeth or all the
little blue things are
there but no one says it
because, because sometimes
they're afraid. And then
they come....

Wild scary.
You know, if you read that a certain way, it honestly ALMOST sounds like she's referring to RFID tags.. or am I just wiggin here ?

Straight up, it's the first thing I thought of.
Weeeeeeirdnesss.

-frem
diefuxdie.

(PS. Link for them's that dunno what I am talkin about - http://www.epic.org/privacy/rfid/ )

SHINY

Monday, February 2, 2004 6:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Question about Inara while I have you here. Does anybody else get the idea that the persons who are in the most high companion guild positions are men?

I doubt it. In HoG, Nandi says something like "they don't have guilds out here, and they even let men run the houses..."

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

SHINY

Monday, February 2, 2004 7:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Wild scary.
You know, if you read that a certain way, it honestly ALMOST sounds like she's referring to RFID tags.. or am I just wiggin here ?

Straight up, it's the first thing I thought of.
Weeeeeeirdnesss.

It may be even worse than that...in one of the other threads, someone hypothesized that all blue sun products may be laced with some chemical-/ bio-/nano- technology that helps the alliance control the population somehow (perhaps even making it possible to use those sonic brain-melting stick thingys that the blue hands used in Ariel)

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

STATIC

Monday, February 2, 2004 7:15 PM

I think this is one of those situations where the simplest explanation is probably the one we should go with. . .unless the commentary specifically says otherwise, I think we can take what we know of River's experience, the fact that Blue Sun has their logo on almost EVERY consumable there is, and it was, in fact, on Jayne's shirt. . .that's what tripped her trigger. . .THAT time. It's also the only time her outburst was OVERTLY violent. (not counting war stories, which wasn't so much an outburst)

For my Master's thesis in Abnormal Psych, we're supposed to do extended evaluation on someone. . .Fictional or Historical character. . .not allowed to do someone we could actually INTERVIEW. . .and I picked River. It's very challenging.

If FOX hadn't been idiots, I'd be DONE by now.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

SERENA

Monday, February 2, 2004 7:55 PM

Static,
I haven't read all of this thread but I'm thinking that River would have been a very challenging subject for your Masters Thesis under any circumstances. I totally feel your frustration with Fox. Wonder if you could sue them ...

________
Simon: Can you move your feet?
Kaylee: Are you asking me to dance?

STATIC

Monday, February 2, 2004 8:02 PM

Maybe I could get them to reimburse me for my tuition. . .especially since the Army is paying for it, so I could 'double dip'

heeheeheeheeheeheehee.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

SERENA

Monday, February 2, 2004 8:03 PM

Don't forget to throw in "pain and suffering"!!!

________
Simon: Can you move your feet?
Kaylee: Are you asking me to dance?

FFYING2

Tuesday, February 3, 2004 6:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Static:
I think this is one of those situations where the simplest explanation is probably the one we should go with. . .unless the commentary specifically says otherwise, I think we can take what we know of River's experience, the fact that Blue Sun has their logo on almost EVERY consumable there is, and it was, in fact, on Jayne's shirt. . .that's what tripped her trigger. . .THAT time. It's also the only time her outburst was OVERTLY violent. (not counting war stories, which wasn't so much an outburst)

We can't see "Blue Sun" on the cans, but you're right that we can assume they're made by Blue Sun. However, we can see the Blue Sun logos on her next victims: the two boxes of cracker packets. The logos are small. The first one's upside-down, and the second one is sideways.

It's also in the script:

Quote:
River has three cans unlabeled, and she's crushing a box of crackers. It has a visible, not emphasized, "Blue Sun" on it. She gets more violent and loud as she continues.

RIVER
These are the ones that take you! Little ones in the corner that you almost don't see. But they're the ones that reach in and do it. They're the ones with teeth and you have to smash them!

-------------------------------------------------

Quote:
For my Master's thesis in Abnormal Psych, we're supposed to do extended evaluation on someone. . .Fictional or Historical character. . .not allowed to do someone we could actually INTERVIEW. . .and I picked River. It's very challenging.

Wow, go for it!

Keep flying! (literally)

Ying
Firefly Funsite http://fireflyfunsite.home.att.net
Firefly Chinese Pinyinary http://fireflychinese.home.att.net

CHEAPJOE

Wednesday, February 4, 2004 5:28 AM

I havent seen the EP in a few weeks, but as i recall, Simon and Jayne were having a little altercation just before she slashed him. I always thought of that as what started it. Maybe thats what drew her attention to the shirt. Lots to think about though.

ADEPTUS

Wednesday, February 4, 2004 6:22 AM

FireflyWiki has a good explanation of this (which has been covered at least a bit.) Forgive me if this has already been posted (I didn't have the patience to read through all the posts:

http://www.average-bear.com/wiki/index.php/BlueSun

Check it out.

No power in the 'verse can stop me.

ZEVSKA

Sunday, February 29, 2004 2:09 PM

Quote:
RIVER
These are the ones that take you! Little ones in the corner that you almost don't see. But they're the ones that reach in and do it. They're the ones with teeth and you have to smash them!

This kinda makes me think she's talking about the tiny logos. Subliminal messages contained within or something. 'The little ones in the corner that you almost don't see'.
Freaky.

Btw, hi all *waves*

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

Friday, May 14, 2004 5:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by WhooDahn:
Quote:
Originally posted by FlyinFree:
She is removing the Blue Sun logo from all the cans. The same reason she slashes Jayne's shirt, it has a Blue Sun logo on it.

I hadn't thought of that. Now I have a couple of questions.

Is the Blue Sun part of the Alliance or is it a massive/powerful shipping company?

Do the Blue Hands work for the Alliance or Blue Sun?

Does the Alliance do what Blue Sun tells them to do, is it another case of big business controlling the military?

The sad thing is...we'd know the answer to this question had shoing mao niao Fox not cancelled our show!

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
MAL: This is my scrap of nowhere. You go on and find your own.
SAFFRON: You can't just leave me here, on this
lifeless piece of crap moon...
MAL: Sure I can.
SAFFRON: I'll die.
MAL: Well, as a courtesy, you might start
getting busy on that, cause all this chatter ain't doin' me any kindness.

RIVERGIRL

Monday, June 14, 2004 3:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Talrius:
No, Jayne wore one so I don't think there's anything to worry over. Now if you find yourself wearing black suits and blue latex gloves then I'd think you should worry.

since the subject of Jayne and his Tshirts came up--is there a list of which shirt Jayne wore in each episode

TALRIUS

Monday, June 14, 2004 7:09 PM

No, sorry there is no list. It would make an interesting bit of trivia though. If you would like to create one it could be posted here as such. I suppose I could help but that means I'll have to stop watching Farscape season 2 long enough to watch Firefly again, but it might be worth it.

SHINY4004

Sunday, July 18, 2004 4:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zevska:
Quote:
RIVER
These are the ones that take you! Little ones in the corner that you almost don't see. But they're the ones that reach in and do it. They're the ones with teeth and you have to smash them!

This kinda makes me think she's talking about the tiny logos. Subliminal messages contained within or something. 'The little ones in the corner that you almost don't see'.
Freaky.

Btw, hi all *waves*

I think she IS talking about the Blue Sun Logos when she says "the ones you almost don't see" because in the commentary for Serenity they say that the Blue Sun Logos are hidden/put in different scenes and the part where she says "they're the ones that take you!" I think she's talking about the Hands of Blue guys. So I think there is a definite link between the Alliance, the Blue Sun Corp and the Hands of Blue guys. Just my thoughts!

"Oh I'm going to the special hell."-Mal

PURPLEBELLY

Sunday, July 18, 2004 6:06 AM

I'm thinking at the table
I'm reading every label

JAYNEZTOWN

Saturday, August 7, 2004 7:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyinFree:
She is removing the Blue Sun logo from all the cans. The same reason she slashes Jayne's shirt, it has a Blue Sun logo on it.

Still flyin'...

Bad idea to wear your Blue Sun shirt while river is around

That is a great theory

THEREALME

Saturday, August 7, 2004 7:42 AM

Purplebelly! You are a poet!

Now you should keep it up until you write the lyrics for the new hit song "River Madness"! We could be rich!

(We, because you'd be morally obliged to share with me since it was my idea!)

The Real Me

LADYDISDAIN

Monday, August 9, 2004 2:23 AM

(Hi! I'm a horrible newbie, so please forgive any major breach of etiquette...)

I'm ready to buy the River going after the Blue Sun logo. But that brings up an interesting quandry: If she was in fact being trained by Blue Sun (via the Alliance, via the Blue Gloves), but has since developed a hatred and fear so intense that she will attack the logo itself...

Well... doesn't that make her the perfect psychic assassin for anyone looking to off some Blue Sun execs, or any number of the political strongboxes that Blue Sun has likely installed in various offices? So how long is it before someone recruits her based on this hatred?

Just a thought. I fiendishly enjoy playing devil's advocate and looking for loopholes...

THEREALME

Monday, August 9, 2004 2:42 AM

Welcome! It is always good to have new folks join us. We are very friendly here.

Etiquette? We really don't have any secret handhakes or anything like that. Simple politeness goes a long way.

And yes, you have an interesting idea that I never thought of, personally. In fact, I never noticed any Blue Sun connection until I read threads on this site.

But it has been suggested (somewhere on this site) that River was not made as an assassin BY the Blue Suns, but rather AGAINST the Blue Suns.

I'm not sure which way it goes, myself, but I'm waiting patiently to find out.

The Real Me

BADGERGIRL

Tuesday, December 7, 2004 5:25 AM

Welcome, Ladydisdain! I'm a newbie too, so you're not the only one.
I do have something to mention on what you said.

Quote:
Well... doesn't that make her the perfect psychic assassin for anyone looking to off some Blue Sun execs, or any number of the political strongboxes that Blue Sun has likely installed in various offices? So how long is it before someone recruits her based on this hatred?

I think it'll be an interesting day when someone does find that out (and now that you pointed it out, it seems almost inevitable if the original theory's true). And it makes me wonder...Jubal Early wasn't working for anybody, right? A freelancer. Body hunter. Kind of like Boba Fett (not to be mistaken with Bobby Fett on the commentary)...wherever there's money, no matter which side it's on, you do the job. What if someone was paying Jubal to bring River to them for that very reason? Granted, it's a long shot, since he had the wanted poster, but that could've just been for information on them.

Gah, it's too late in the night to think this hard!

"Is there someone you are good at talking to?"

THEREALME

Tuesday, December 7, 2004 5:39 AM

Welcome to you, too, Badgergirl!

It is my opinion that Early was independent.

The Real Me

BADGERGIRL

Wednesday, December 8, 2004 2:29 AM

Thanks!

Well, considering he's a body/bounty hunter, he's getting payed by someone, and he mentioned that a few times. But he never specifically said who.

__________________________________________
"Is there someone you are good at talking to?"

RABIT

Wednesday, December 8, 2004 3:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Badgergirl:
Well, considering he's a body/bounty hunter, he's getting payed by someone, and he mentioned that a few times. But he never specifically said who.

The impression that I had was that he was just looking to get the government's bounty - that he was working for himself, planning on turning River in to the goverment to collect the bounty.

But that was just my take...

Rabit

ROCKETJOCK

Wednesday, December 8, 2004 5:26 AM

There it is, there it is. It's
always there if you look for it.
Everybody sees and nobody sees it...

It almost sounds to me as if River is describing some kind of subliminal programming technique

Little ones in the corner that you almost don't see.

That could surely describe a laser-scan/UPC symbol. Who notices those things anymore?

What if all that Blue Sun imagery is sending little tiny cumulative messages? Nothing too complicated. "Obey Authority", "Conform", "Consume."

Hmm... Where's John Carpenter when you need him?

"I'm here to chew bubble gum and kick ass. And I'm all out of bubble gum." -- Rowdy Roddy Piper, "They Live!"

PURPLEBELLY

Wednesday, December 8, 2004 7:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheRealMe:
Purplebelly! You are a poet!

Multiple apologies, TheRealMe. I've only just caught up with this thread, and I failed to attribute my quote to Don McLean. It's from Building My Body http://www.lyricsdownload.com/mclean-don-building-my-body-lyrics.html
I remember it from the first time-around

PURPLEBELLY

Wednesday, December 8, 2004 7:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
There it is, there it is. It's
always there if you look for it.
Everybody sees and nobody sees it...

I'm almost sure this is a reference to food additives. In Europe, I might include genetic modification but for a US show that doesn't apply.
There is an associated notion that the reason Reavers eat human flesh is to access the accumulated additives. Also some suspicion about the special cargo referred to in a log on the settlers' vessel in Bushwhacked that may have been taken by the Reavers.

THIEFJEHAT

Friday, February 4, 2005 11:01 PM

The most interesting speculation I have heard, and which I'm starting to believe, is that the Blue Sun canned goods contain nanites.

Here's the deal. Blue Sun is big. And by big I mean colossal. They represent the worst of the mega-corp future. Think of them as being a corp that represents 2/3's of the current Dow-30 on the NYSE. As such they have a division that produces household products (like Proctor&Gamble).

Blue Sun is also in tight with the Alliance Government. The Government needs ways to control the people. Every time a person ingests Blue Sun food they are taking in little devices. Little ways the government can control a person. How did the "hands-of-blue" duo kill the guards in Ariel? Simple. They activated the nanites in the bloodstreams of the men who have all consumed blue sun food at one time or another. The command sent was "kill this host" And they did.

River knows these things. River was taken and "developed" by a military R&D division of Blue Sun. She knows what's in the food. She cannot however communicate these truths to the crew. She just "acts crazy" as Jayne would put it. Read above on this thread and posted is the script that River delivers. Read it and think. It's spooky.

STEAMBOAT28

Saturday, March 11, 2006 1:28 AM

I would agree less with the notion of nanites than the idea of additives in general, in this instance. i'd lean more toward chemical or genetic additives, the sort of which would serve to provide just enough nutrients to survive and aid in control of the populace. two reasons on my thoughts of this are: a) the fact that the subliminal messaging in the bar in the BDM was noted as being "good" or somesuch, above the norm, and b) that the PAX responsible for the disaster at Miranda was bio-chemical, not a feat of nanoengineering. the first would mean that subliminal messaging is at least more prevalent than it is now, and has been undertaken as a science. If nanites were involve, one could just (theoretically) directly intervene with the functions of the body instead of being forced to deal with the mind. the second, of course would be easily fixed in the case of nanites by a mass reprogramming, or by the introduction of a "destroyer nanite" into the same atmo.

Of course, this doesn't count the fact that the Blue Hands Guys would have consumed at least some Blue Sun products in their lifetimes, assuming they really do control as much as we think they do, unless they're "grown" in house, and monitored from birth. even then, there's talk in the nanoscience community of them being "contagious", able to be transferred as they replicate by any number of means.

just a few thoughts...

CABOT

Saturday, March 11, 2006 2:35 PM

A lot of thoughtful posts on the subject in this thread long before the movie came out to help solidify the arc.

Quote:
...even then, there's talk in the nanoscience community of them being "contagious", able to be transferred as they replicate by any number of means. -- steamboat28

Which might explain the blue gloves...

As far as the can labels River tore off in the Shindig episode they appear to be regular can off the shelf of the local 21st century grocery store. Although they do look like they made the effort to get them from an oriental store since the labels have Chinese characters on them. (Not the Blue sun characters however...)

http://still-flying.net/images/shindig/index.php Thanks to still-flying.net for this screencap, which is found early in the list on page 4 of the shingdig group.(Sorry the code for displaying images on this forum is not the same as on my forum so I'm at a loss as to how to get it to work here.)

Which make sense rather than make up a bunch of Blue Sun labels for enough cans to do several takes of her destroying the labels, (note the U.S. government required "nutritional facts" portion of the label appears on one can in the screen cap I mention above.)

Actually what attracted the attention of the card players was River pounding on packages of crackers which do appear to have some sort of blue label I'm not able to find a screen cap the moment to double check it.

I doubt River can read the future, just minds. All the pointing toward Objects in Space and her wandering not only through the ship, but the minds of the various people doesn't ever show a viewing of future events, but what was probably upper most in the individual's mind at that moment.

So whether River was reacting to the Blue Sun logo on Jayne's shirt or just the rising tension in the room, I don't think she was reading the future and Jayne's undeveloped plot to turn them in and get the reward.

Regarding the Blue Hands fellows and their possible connection to Blue Sun, I thing it is almost a given they were. I believe they are part of the Blue Sun Corporation's security group. Unless someone knows of a secret dislike Joss has of the color blue, I think it too much of a coincidence of the two mentions of blue.

In the script for the episode Dead or Alive,( http://www.fireflyfans.net/feature.asp?f=45 ) which was not even shot let alone broadcast, River tells a story to a gathering of children that features a princess who is held captive in a tower by "Blue Demons" who found her after a botched escape attempt. Since this episode never got aired, it is probably not canon, but it does show you the direction they were leaning with this back story.

Last thought before I end my ramblings, this mention of an escape attempt got me thinking, do we see the prelude to that attempt in the final segment of the viral marketing "R. Tam Sessions"?
_____________

River: Midbulk transport. Standard radion accelerator core class-code 03-K64. Firefly.

ASARIAN

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 11:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:

So, I'm watching Shindig again for the umpteenth time and as always I can make no sense at all about River's scene in the galley, where she is taking the labels off the cans of food. I don't have a great tape of it, so it's hard to hear everything she is saying, but I made out parts of it and it doesn't make too much sense with what she is doing to the cans. Why is she doing what she's doing?

Hey Maniacnumberone,

It seems a lot of people quote this part of the shooting script:

Little ones in the corner that you
almost don't see. But they're the
ones that reach in and do it.
They're the ones with teeth and you
have to smash them!

But the shooting script is a notoriously good place for inaccurate text. :) Specifically, this part about "the ones with teeth" I find wholly absent (and not for lack of searching). First, here is what I can physically hear myself:

"The ones. It's the ones that take you. They're the ones reaching and doing... Everywhere. And the hands go everywhere. When you brush your teeth and, ... are there, but ... because sometimes they're afraid. And then they come."

When I try and fill in the gaps, using the shooting script, considering the position of the parts of phrases we DO hear properly, I come to the following reconstruction. All tentative, of course:

"These are the ones that take you. They're the ones reaching and doing. And the little ends of the roots go everywhere. And the hands go everywhere. When you brush your teeth, all the little blue things are there, but no one says it because sometimes they're afraid. And then they come."

It's the best I can do.

Okay, as for the Blue Sun logo, it's not on the cans, of course (at least not visibly). But I believe River goes for the cans anyway, because some of them have concentrically shaped paint on their lid, in a blue that matches that of the Blue Sun logo:

The color association just triggers her to go after the cans too, I think.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

GRIZWALD

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 11:35 PM

Annnnndddd.... there's a Blue Sun logo at the very beginning of the FOB commercial...

____________________________________________________
They could not take the sky from them -
Our Big Damn Heroes made a film!
I'm gonna see Serenity then
go back the next morning and see it again.
Cuz no one at Fox knew this show had no equal
C'mon Universal, and greenlight the sequel!

Click on my profile for my Annoyingly Long List of Firefly Links.

PHOENIXROSE

Tuesday, April 11, 2006 2:46 PM

You can see the Blue Sun logo on the boxes in that screen capture. What are those, crackers or something? There on the left. I think you're right about the color on the cans, too, but she does dump out those boxes.

*************************************************
Bible's broken. Doesn't make sense.

Zhu fu ni, mei-mei

DEEPGIRL187

Thursday, April 13, 2006 1:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SirenKain:
Jayne may have been planning it but the River attack decided it. I don't think the fact that River attacked him is what pissed him off (I mean besides being attacked). I think he was more upset that Mal took it so lightly. Mal gets his dander up when any one of his crew is hurt or threaten. He brushed aside the River/Jayne incident like Jayne was not as important as anyone else. I think Jayne was hurt (feelings I mean) and was trying to fix Mal more then River.

That would make sense in a way. After all, Mal does say that Jayne betrayed him, not River or Simon.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

EMMAZULE

Friday, April 14, 2006 7:16 AM

[quote="Whoodahn"]Is the Blue Sun part of the Alliance or is it a massive/powerful shipping company?

From the sounds of it, it's a bit of both. Like Coca-Cola meets Microsoft, on crack. :P

The commentary for the original "Serenity" pilot (when they're still on Persephone, meaning it would be part 1, right?) on the DVD mentions something about it - you can see walls (or possibly VERY large shipping containers) in the background with the Blue Sun logo. The original intent was to more and more and more often include Blue Sun logos - walls in the background, food packages, Jayne's shirt, and probably quite a few that I still haven't caught. It was part of the world-building.

It's got HEAVY ties to the Alliance, I remember that much. I get the feeling they're a "civilian" branch of it that sells stuff to keep consumers fed and clothed and all, but also bring in funds. I don't recall as much as you'd think there would be in Firefly about taxes, aside from the (apparently ridiculously expensive, since smuggling exists for such things as cattle and "wobbly-headead [geisha] dolls") tariffs on interplanetary exports and imports. And maybe... hm, maybe the REASON the tarifs are so gorram high on those goods - get ready for it is because they are not produced or sold by Blue Sun!

Maybe it's a sweetheart deal, though, not an actual government branch. But it DOES make one wonder, dunnit!

Quote:

Do the Blue Hands work for the Alliance or Blue Sun?

Well, The Academy was an Alliance school, right? And she's an escapee from there. Plus, Alliance guards (as we saw in Ariel) defer to them. So they're arguably WORKING for the government. Whether or not they ALSO work for the Blue Sun Corp. is anybody's guess, though.

Quote:

Does the Alliance do what Blue Sun tells them to do, is it another case of big business controlling the military?

And possibly vice versa? Oh, I'd say so. Again - and really this just occured to me today - the whole smuggling things like "wobbly-headed dolls" seems ridiculous. Why else would you need to smuggle them (it sounded like they didn't have drugs in them, but from Joss' joke about "and pot is totally legal", however negated it was, in the SVC, I doubt anything but the hardcore drugs are illegal, but you never really know. And it probably depends on the locals for the softer drugs)? I say it's because Blue Sun's in bed with the Alliance. Blue Sun, if it's not an actual, for-profit branch of the Alliance, might pay the Alliance huge sums of money in exchange for the ability to monopolize entire planets under their commericial rule. This gets even scarier if you tie in the "the Hands of Blue's 'splodey device only works if you've eaten or drunk Blue Sun goods". A you-scratch-my-back-I-scratch-yours deal of ludicrous power; the government gets more control over the masses, and teh corperation gets more control over the masses' wallets, and, probably, governemnt contracts to boot. O_O Scaaaaary stuff.

Fascinating, though. I might just have to work that into a fic, LOL.

Interestingly enough, I find a direct tie between Paxilon Hydrochlorate (PAX) and the repeated usage of the color blue.

The connection is the following: in general, about 75% of any given group that isn't already categorized by favorite color

will state blue as their favorite. Why?

Because Earth's sky, the sky we and our ancestors, and our ancestors' ancestors, and our ancestors' ancestors' great uncles all grew up under... is BLUE.

A (hopefully) clear, light, azure blue.

It is, pardon the mostly-accidental pun, the color most associated with SERENITY. With calm, peace, happiness, comfort zones, etc.

It's a gentle color. A soothing color. A deceptive color. Quite possibly THE best color for a logo if you want to exude a friendly-seeming appearance.

Again... soothing and calming. The color therefore possibly connects Blue Sun AND the incident on Miranda, symbolically.

Blue Sun has negative connotations if only because of their Alliance ties. The Blue Hands keep

GIDEONSTARGRAVE

Friday, April 14, 2006 6:47 PM

I saw Blue Sun as more or less being the 'verse equivalent of Weyland-Yutani (the corp from the Aliens series for all one of you who didn't know.)

I kind of suspect that it would have been one of the big mysteries of the series. Who's calling the shots, ultimately? Are Blue Sun manipulating the alliance government, or are the alliance government using Blue Sun to manipulate the people (or, getting more recursive, is a faction in the government using Blue Sun to mess with the rest of the government and people, or are Blue Sun using a faction of the government to mess... you get the idea.)

The Blue Sun/Academy link doesn't even have to be uber-secret. Companies sponsor certain parts of educational institutions all the time these days. From the point of view of even the people who know the academy has the secret, it might not make them suspicious of Blue Sun. After all, to use an example, say if a doctor or nurse was killing people at a hospital, why would you necessarily imagine that the big company sponsoring one of their wards knew about it? Virtually nobody sees Blue Sun anyways, it's so ubiquitous it's almost subliminal. Heck, they might even have enough fingers in comparitively legit schools that their sponsorship might even be expected (and its absence commented on)

Edit: Here's an interesting little idea I just thought of. Maybe it's a little off. River's dislike of Blue Sun is something we're taking as given in this debate, and someone talked about using her to off Blue Sun execs. Maybe the dislike of Blue Sun isn't her fear of them for what they've done, as much as it was engineered in by the Academy, say so their pet project couldn't be directly controlled by Blue Sun, or they had insurance in case Blue Sun started going beyond certain limits.

EPEYON

Friday, April 14, 2006 7:59 PM

Everybody's assuming that Blue Sun is part of the Alliance, or are in bed with each other. What if Blue Sun is nothing more than a corporation. Just an amazingly powerful one. And what if River's dislike of Blue Sun is because they created PAX?(That's the agent that infected Miranda, right? I haven't seen the movie in a while.) The Alliance heard about it, and decided to fund the research. Then before the Miranda debacle they planned to get it out to the general population by using Blue Sun products. And that is why River goes crazy at the mention of Blue Sun. Now just because Blue Sun didn't make the cans doesn't mean they didn't ship them. Or they didn't come in a Blue Sun box before they were put in that tray thing.

EMMAZULE

Saturday, April 15, 2006 2:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Epeyon:
Everybody's assuming that Blue Sun is part of the Alliance, or are in bed with each other. What if Blue Sun is nothing more than a corporation. Just an amazingly powerful one.

I think you just contradicted yourself, there.

If they are "an amazingly powerful" corperation, chances are that they are or have at least TRIED to get "in bed" with the government.

Pharmaceutical companies, car companies, construction, no matter what the business is, if it's booming, the company usually tries to get in good with the government, in the hopes of getting government grants (such as for chemical research *COUGHPAXPOSSIBLYCOUGH*), tax breaks, laws that support them and not their competitors (again, I still feel there must be really high tariffs on exports for smuggling to be so lucrative on such silly-seeming objects, and Blue Sun seems to have a monopoly or near-monopoly on commericial foodstuffs, for instance), you name it.

A mega-corperation like Blue Sun that has its hands in so many different kinds of products, and IIRC, was compared by the series creator himself to Microsoft? Let alone with the kind of inter-planetary ubiquitiousness they have?

They may or may not be as tied-in as many of us suspect, but they're certainly in metaphorical bed with each on some level.

Quote:

And what if River's dislike of Blue Sun is because they created PAX?(That's the agent that infected Miranda, right? I haven't seen the movie in a while.)

Paxilon hydrochlorate, aka PAX, yes.

Quote:

The Alliance heard about it, and decided to fund the research. Then before the Miranda debacle they planned to get it out to the general population by using Blue Sun products.

There is one slight bone of contention I have with this theory:

PAX is a gas. At room temperature. It has to be, since it was in the air being pumped into buildings on Miranda. I don't think you could ingest it (through food or drink) at room temperature, nor would you absorb it through skin. It sounds like you'd have to breath it in.

Not to say it couldn't be worked around, or that there can't be another Paxilon product that isn't a gas, but it does raise some problems/questions about your theory.

Anybody who DIDN'T almost fail high school chemistry wanna take a crack at that?

(NOTE: I mean *I* almost failed HS chem, of course. Though I have to wonder if it's not because I happened to have the neurotic, OCDish, pedantic, universally-agreed-as-worst-ever-at-that-school science teacher teaching my chem class )

Quote:

And that is why River goes crazy at the mention of Blue Sun.

Wouldn't Blue Sun's being the creators of PAX, the substance the Alliance used on Miranda, make them kinda in bed together on some level, in and of itself? Giving them grants in exchange for a substance to control the masses is as good as being in bed with them, a you-scratch-my-evil-misguided-back-I'll-scratch-yours situation, as it were.

Quote:

Now just because Blue Sun didn't make the cans doesn't mean they didn't ship them.

A fair point.

Quote:

Or they didn't come in a Blue Sun box before they were put in that tray thing.

Also possible.

~Emma