Suspension of Disbelief

POSTED BY: ritak7
UPDATED: Friday, January 20, 2006 12:03
VIEWED: 16946
PAGE 1 of 1

RITAK7

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:10 AM

Please no one get mad i am just curious. You know the bit when they paint Serenity with blood and hang the corpses all over it, well wouldn't the intense heat of the atmosphere incinerate the bones and the blood? i really don't have a sophisticated scientific mind example in high school i became convinced after an elementary biology class that there was no way all seven children could be right handed and straight so i started writing horribly wiht my left hand-i couldn't be anymore right handed and just figure my catholic upbringing surpressed and sublimated my sexuality so that's what i got from science classes and from a trip to cape canveral as a child i am fairly certain thatthe atmosphere is intensely hot so wouldn't it be hot enough to destroy reaver artwork? feel free to laugh at or with me but dont' be upset that i question his holiness Joss Whedon

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:13 AM

I don't believe this thread.

RITAK7

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:18 AM

Umm..why?

GROUNDED

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:18 AM

I don't believe Chrisisall doesn't believe this thread.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:18 AM

Sorry, had to suspend my disbelief.

The red is thermal paint (common for use on all ships), not blood, and the bodies burned up to the bone, but not beyond in controlled (ie, slower) exit or re-entry. 200 or 300 meters per/sec more, and the bone would go too.

Are ya satisfied?

Chrisisall, wankin' away

HOBANWASHBURN

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:20 AM

well, first, try a little more punctuation there. But the heat from leaving atmo burned the flesh and muscle off the bones and they painted the ship with red paint, not blood. And the burn through atmo doesn't harm the paint.

RITAK7

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:22 AM

oh 'kay i thought Mal instructed the crew to smear Serenity with the victims of the Alliance massacre blood thank you for the clear up about the bone bit-but if just the flesh burned up when exiting the atmosphere the bone wouldn't go too after either entering or exiting Miranda's atmosphere?

GROUNDED

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:24 AM

Are you asking 'would the bones burn in real life?' or are you asking for a fanwank like the one CIA has put forward?

RITAK7

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:27 AM

well i am an iconoclast i don't need no stinkin punctuation i am saving ;:.,for the huge thesis i am slaving over
i could have sworn Mal told them to smear the ship with blood i don't get how red paint would make the reavers think "whoo doggie there's one of our own"

RITAK7

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:29 AM

asking if it would happen in real life but here's another query what's a fanwank?

GROUNDED

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:30 AM

Mal actually says something like

"We're going to need red paint. Lots of red paint."

as they're gearing up to modify the ship.

GROUNDED

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ritak7:
asking if it would happen in real life but here's another query what's a fanwank?

In real life I imagine the bones would burn up with the rest of the body.

Fanwank: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanwank

PDCHARLES

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ritak7:
i don't get how red paint would make the reavers think "whoo doggie there's one of our own"

*Reaver ripping one of his lips off... pauses*

Reaver: Hey, is that red paint?

U Gonna Be Smart Here Riva!?!

PRINCESSROHANNEN

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:34 AM

Surely they'd be able to enter the atmosphere slowly enough to keep the bones intact if they wanted to. We're not talking about the technology of the 70's (when astronauts basically hurled themselves into the atmosphere inside a big rock with heat shields and hoped like heck they'd gotten all the calculations right). It isn't the atmosphere itself that's hot, it's the friction with the atmosphere caused by the velocity of the vehicle.

Now, if you want to start pointing out technological inconsistencies, let's talk about how all these people got to this new solar system from Earth that was but now their ships are only capable of interplanetary travel. What gives with that?

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:34 AM

Yo Ritak, are YOU an expert in astrophysics, atmo entry and re-entry, or atmo density/solid object friction ratios?
Me neither, but I almost sounded smart there, for a second, huh?

The bones didn't burn 'cause it looked real weird seein' them on Serenity, and 'cause Joss said so.

Wank not mandatory Chrisisall

KT

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:34 AM

If I recall Mal's exact words were...

"Paint...we're goin' to need red paint" right before everyone realized what he was about to do.

Can't speak to burning bones thru atmo though...
don't really want to think about it either -

"I'll see your "ick" and raise you a "naa-ghaghhh" from Buffy in that other Whedon verse....

---------
"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart."

RITAK7

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:38 AM

thank you laddies especially for the new word i certainly hope i am not a 'fanwanker' i was just curious about the blood bit thanks for elucidating that for me

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:

Now, if you want to start pointing out technological inconsistencies, let's talk about how all these people got to this new solar system from Earth that was but now their ships are only capable of interplanetary travel. What gives with that?

Generational ships, my dear. Again, Joss said so.
You can go anywhere if you got the time...

Chrisisall, who prefers sleeper ships hisself

RITAK7

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:41 AM

Chrisisall
i was totally digging it dude i thought you perhaps were a NASA employee a higher up with several PH.d's dontcha know what PH.D stands for Piled High and Deep

HOBANWASHBURN

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:
Now, if you want to start pointing out technological inconsistencies, let's talk about how all these people got to this new solar system from Earth that was but now their ships are only capable of interplanetary travel. What gives with that?

Personally, I have a feeling that these folk were on massive ships taking them to the planets. And it burned hard enough and had enough fuel to get there in a reasonable amount of time. Probably took months. Like the ships that sailed to America. It took a LONG time to get from the European land to the new world. That's my theory anywho. And really, the only ship we fully see the capabilities of is Serenity and it's pretty obvious that the Firefly is pretty obsolete at that point. So there's no telling what the Alliance had up their sleeves.

Some people juggle geese!

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:00 AM

I posess the title of PH.Duh

So nobody else noticed the two Hands Of Blue boy's cameo in the beginning of Serenity??

Chrisisall, also PH.D'oh!

HAEKELDRACHE

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:02 AM

This question is kind of macabre ...

Anyway, Google tells me that the bottom of a Space Shuttle is heatet up to between 1600°C to 1700°C.

Crematories are burning Corpses, using a temperature of 700°C to 900°C (the Bones need a little more "Power").

So, either the Ships in Serenity/Firefly aren´t taking this much friction Heat, or their Bones are reinforced in some Way - Or it´s Grandmaster Whedon´s will ;)

"Burn the land and boil the Sea, you can´t take the Sky from me..."

Haekeldrache is german for Crochetdragon

RITAK7

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:14 AM

Crochetdragon you are cool!
thanks for that bit of research i wish i could use Google that well
i can say several warm phrases (as well as a few chilly ones) in German but won't even attempt to spell them
i know it is a macabre subject but here's something evern more dark gross and disturbing-i think of it now that you brought up the crematories-out in Western Massachusetts a pound creamates the animals it puts down and taps that heat to heat the pound itself i mean bravo efficiency wise but eww poor puppies

PRINCESSROHANNEN

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:

Now, if you want to start pointing out technological inconsistencies, let's talk about how all these people got to this new solar system from Earth that was but now their ships are only capable of interplanetary travel. What gives with that?
Generational ships, my dear. Again, Joss said so.
You can go anywhere if you got the time...

Chrisisall, who prefers sleeper ships hisself

Those poor generations!

Say these generational transports could cover 1 astronomical unit in a day (that's the distance from the sun to the Earth). That seems to be pretty close to the speeds that Serenity is capable of.

Proxima Centauri, the nearest star to Earth (aside from Sol), is 4.28 light-years away. That's roughly 270,667 astronomical units, or around 25,160,072,930,000 miles.

At the rate of 1 astronomical unit per day, it would take a ship 742 years to reach the nearest star from Earth. Assuming an average lifespan of 70 years, that's nearly eleven generations, not counting overlap.

And that's assuming that Proxima Centauri is the system Serenity flies around in. The other stars are even further out.

I suppose that desperate sort of journey is possible, given dire enough circumstances. It just doesn't seem very likely. After all, if your ships are technologically advanced enough to sustain that many generations, why go to all the trouble and risk of terraforming planets? Why not just build great big space stations right here in our own Solar system?

SAMEERTIA

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:16 AM

First off, RITAK7, you're likely to get a far better response if you use proper capitalization and punctuation. Your post is just to hard to read as it is.

Second, what most everyone else has said is correct. When I rewatched Serenity last weekend with Manitou, who's degree IS in astrophysics, he said that the heat of passing through atmosphere is mostly due to the speed at which we have to do it today.
Presumeably, by the time Serenity is set in, they have better control over exit and re-entry.

The point that he made, being a very valid one, is that the skeletons wouldn't hold together unless you coated them with something. The cartilege that joints are made up of would have decayed when the flesh burned away.

HAEKELDRACHE

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:25 AM

Quote:
out in Western Massachusetts a pound creamates the animals it puts down and taps that heat to heat the pound itself i mean bravo efficiency wise but eww poor puppies

What would you do if I´d tell you, that most of the Crematories use the Heat produced during the "disposal" of the bodys is used to warm up the holding area of the Building? ;)

"Burn the land and boil the Sea, you can´t take the Sky from me..."

Haekeldrache is german for Crochetdragon

RITAK7

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:29 AM

Haekeldache i'd say dude...whoa

PRINCESSROHANNEN

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Haekeldrache:
Quote:
out in Western Massachusetts a pound creamates the animals it puts down and taps that heat to heat the pound itself i mean bravo efficiency wise but eww poor puppies

What would you do if I´d tell you, that most of the Crematories use the Heat produced during the "disposal" of the bodys is used to warm up the holding area of the Building? ;)

"Burn the land and boil the Sea, you can´t take the Sky from me..."

Haekeldrache is german for Crochetdragon

Well, recycling is eco-friendly.

SHINYSEVEN2

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:31 AM

I don't know anything about astrophysics, but I'm better on etymology, so to answer your other question:
"fanwank" has two quite separate meanings. One of them is an angry dispute among fans, but the one mentioned in this thread is "an explanation devised by fans to harmonize an apparent contradiction in the source text." For example, what we see in the beginning of the movie vs. what Simon said in the pilot about River's rescue.

HAEKELDRACHE

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:32 AM

RITAK7: Thought so ;)

"Burn the land and boil the Sea, you can´t take the Sky from me..."

Haekeldrache is german for Crochetdragon

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:36 AM

The answer to your question about reentry is yes, the bones and maybe even some of the paint would have ablated away. I don’t believe there is any way to avoid this. You cannot slowly leave the earth and certainly can’t slowly reenter. My guess is that around several hundred miles an hour those bodies would have disintegrated and that is probably single digit percentages of the velocity you would need to escape gravity.

As for your other problems, I cannot help you.

Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

RITAK7

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:39 AM

True that PrincessRohannen.
The thesis i am reserving my punctuation for (though i still claim the title of iconoclast down with the sanctimonious grammophiles) is on the use of biodisel produced from crops: food crops from which oil can be expelled, non edible crops which can be grown on marginal land, from restaurant waste but-here's the icky bit-rendered animal fat. If tallow was good enough for candles and soap it's good enough for fuel. And yes once upon a time people used lard, which is a very good surfactant and emulsifier, to wash up with. Not too zestfully clean, n'est-ce pas?

HAEKELDRACHE

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:54 AM

Quote:
You cannot slowly leave the earth and certainly can’t slowly reenter.

I´ve been thinking about this problem too...

Well. Maybe you are able to leave atmo without advancing to "burning" speed... but i´m not sure about this.

A Rocket-Engine at the Earth-Atmo is using its recoil to get speed and leave the Orbit. But Recoil can only be produced, if there is something to "push away from", like air. When leaving the Orbit, you are also leavin the Air... and your capability to advance forward.

A Rocket in Space gets Speed by losing Mass. Don´t ask me how exactly it works, but someone told me it would even work if a man at the back of the Ship will throw Crap off of the Shuttle.

So... while you are leaving atmo and entering Space, can you generate enough "Matter-loss" to keep your Piece of Metal from falling down to earth again? I´m not sure, but they MAY have to catapult themselves out of the Earth-Orbit to evade this effect.

Don´t Quote me, im not a Pro ;)

"Burn the land and boil the Sea, you can´t take the Sky from me..."

Haekeldrache is german for Crochetdragon

RITAK7

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:58 AM

Finn Mac Cumhal a quick question regarding your quote what does it mean? It takes quite a man to speak the unspoken language of Latin. Unfortunately i only speak those poor living languages of Spanish, French and of course English so i have ever so roughly translated your quote as Qui He or whom, desiderat desires. peace pacem, prepares praeparet, for war bellum. War is guerra or guerre in F or Sp respectively but i can infer from the context clues as well as words like bellicose and belligirent that bellum is probably war. Is that it? If it is then yay for me, if not well gosh durn it i sure did try.
Qui

IWASAFRYCOOK

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:10 AM

On the topic of traveling between planets, to quote the Official Visual Companion to Serenity, "Every person willing and able to leave Earth migrated to the new system. An entire generation never even saw the outside of a spaceship, the journey took so long."

And when you think about it, you wouldn't really need that much space for fuel, just a course adjustment every couple of months when you're getting a little too friendly with the neighboring asteroids. The rest of the space would probably be filled with people and renewable resources. Very efficient renewable resources.

On a seperate note: maybe in a couple of thousands of FF 'verse years, we'll get Battlestar Galactica: A Different Group of People.

And if you have the Visual Companion, the chinese on the back says, and I quote a chinese friend of mine, "If you don't buy this book, your friends will call you a stupid inborn pile of meat." She then looked at me weirdly and I began her conversion. I'm done typing now.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:11 AM

In a crematorium operating at 1150°C(2100°F) the bones still need to be crushed and ground because they won't break down into ash even at that heat. The maximum temperatures experienced by the Space Shuttle are less than 1480°C(2700°F). It's possible that bones wouldn't be destroyed by re-entry (which is 'hotter' than exit).

If you enter the atmosphere at a lower velocity, and slow down more gradually with a smaller profile to the atmosphere the heating will be dramatically reduced. We can't do this today because all the fuel a space craft can carry is used to get it in to space, there's none left for breaking manoeuvres.

Though the tendons that hold the skeleton together would be burnt away, to that I say artistic license.

As for how they got there you’ve got to remember there’s quite pronounced time-dilation at relativistic speeds. You travel at close enough to the speed of light and you can travel millions of light years in a few weeks of subjective time.

Author of the second "There's nothing wrong with the science of FireFly Dumbarse" thread.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

RITAK7

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:15 AM

hey there iwasafrycook, by the way iworkedthedrivethru
So like soylent green renewable resource?

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Haekeldrache:
A Rocket in Space gets Speed by losing Mass. Don´t ask me how exactly it works, but someone told me it would even work if a man at the back of the Ship will throw Crap off of the Shuttle.

Newton’s Third Law. The escaping exhaust in the rocket imparts an acceleration to the rocket in the opposite direction.

Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

CITIZEN

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Haekeldrache
A Rocket in Space gets Speed by losing Mass. Don´t ask me how exactly it works, but someone told me it would even work if a man at the back of the Ship will throw Crap off of the Shuttle.

Newtons Third Law of motion:
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. As the exhaust from the rocket leaves the craft it pushes on the inside of the rocket 'bell' thus pushing the craft in the opposite direction of the exhaust gas.

It's not moving by losing mass, but ejecting mass is the only way we can currently produce foward push.

Edit:
Hi Finn, great minds huh

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

N7XEJ

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:18 AM

It means "Who would have peace must prepare for war". Cato the Elder, if memory serves.

Scis hoc legere, nimium eruditiones habes.

HAEKELDRACHE

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:24 AM

@FINN MAC CUMHAL & Citizen:

Thx for that

@Citizen: We seem to have different Numbers... I think that is the danger of googling around ;)

"Burn the land and boil the Sea, you can´t take the Sky from me..."

Haekeldrache is german for Crochetdragon

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ritak7:
Finn Mac Cumhal a quick question regarding your quote what does it mean? It takes quite a man to speak the unspoken language of Latin. Unfortunately i only speak those poor living languages of Spanish, French and of course English so i have ever so roughly translated your quote as Qui He or whom, desiderat desires. peace pacem, prepares praeparet, for war bellum. War is guerra or guerre in F or Sp respectively but i can infer from the context clues as well as words like bellicose and belligirent that bellum is probably war. Is that it? If it is then yay for me, if not well gosh durn it i sure did try.
Qui

That’s pretty much it.

It’s a fourth century quote from a Roman military treatise, called De Rei Militari III. The author is a man named Flavius Vegetius, a late Roman military strategist.

Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

RITAK7

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:44 AM

Thank you it is gratifying to be correct for once.

RITAK7

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:02 AM

okay now your lil' bit of latin is completely beyond me
i got hoc this, legere, if it is at all like the frech, light, nimium excessive, eruditiones eruditions,habes you have or you will have or you must have
put it all together and i'm not caffienated enough to have a clue. so help a firefly lovin' sister out

SHINY

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:11 AM

Has anyone commented on the fact that when Mal tells the crew to tie some of the bodies to the nose of the ship, he tosses Simon *ROPE*?!?!

---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ritak7:
okay now your lil' bit of latin is completely beyond me
i got hoc this, legere, if it is at all like the frech, light, nimium excessive, eruditiones eruditions,habes you have or you will have or you must have
put it all together and i'm not caffienated enough to have a clue. so help a firefly lovin' sister out

He’s being cute. Legere means "to read" in this context.

Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

RITAK7

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:53 AM

Thank you again Finn.
Shiny I made the mistake of opening a bag of scrumptious Newman's Own Organic Spelt Pretzels, yum yum, before reading your post. I laughed so hard with a full mouth and well you know. Now i must go clean and pray at the altar of the computer gods in supplication so that the screen may come clean.

RITAK7

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:06 AM

oh i think i get it if you read this you will learn alot

NOSADSEVEN

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
If you enter the atmosphere at a lower velocity, and slow down more gradually with a smaller profile to the atmosphere the heating will be dramatically reduced. We can't do this today because all the fuel a space craft can carry is used to get it in to space, there's none left for breaking manoeuvres.

Breaking manoeuvres such as we see when Serenity breaks atmo in the title sequence...

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Has anyone commented on the fact that when Mal tells the crew to tie some of the bodies to the nose of the ship, he tosses Simon *ROPE*?!?!

Am I crazy, though, or do I remember seeing the skeletons actually bolted to the ship with metal brackets? 'Course, that still wouldn't explain the tendons...

Semper ubi sub ubi.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

RITAK7

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 7:01 AM

so maybe Simon hauls the bodies with the rope and then the cadavers are bolted on and then perhaps use some advanced fricition resistant or defritifying.....
okay it is like two in the morning and now i am going to try and go to sleep sheesh let the nightmares begin.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nosadseven:
Breaking manoeuvres such as we see when Serenity breaks atmo in the title sequence...

That would be the ones. Those two big thrusters kicking off like that would lose Serenity a lot of momentum.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Haekeldrache:
@Citizen: We seem to have different Numbers... I think that is the danger of googling around ;)

Crematoriums operate at different temperatures depending on who manufactured the equipment, how long it's been operating etc. That was an upper limit; yours are probably right for a certain type of machine(s) I imagine. The numbers for the shuttle re-entry heat is based around the heat tolerances of the thermal tiles. You can workout precisely what the temperatures are, but there isn't much point

.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

RUSSELL

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:06 PM

i think that the heat from entering and exiting the atmosphere is caused by friction and high speed.

for an object to reach and maintain orbit around the earth it has to be traveling at 18,000 miles an hour (consider that it falls around the earth).

when an object traveling 18,000+ miles an hour, out in the vacuum of space, hits the dense atmosphere the friction causes intense heat.

at least i think thats how it works. so if they just went slowly ;) it wouldnt be so bad.

PDCHARLES

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:28 PM

Thank you Citizen and NS7:

I hope we are not still using shuttle re-entry tactics 500 hundred years in the future.

How bout this? How did the hover Mule work?

U gonna be smart here Riva?!?!

REAVERMEAT

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:34 PM

Maybe the reavers are constantly replacing the bodies on the ships and doing it in space?

Even though they are feral they still know how to operate starships. So, I think they can manage to realize the benefits of the space suits when attaching the desecrated corpses of people in space.

JAYRO

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by pdcharles:
Thank you Citizen and NS7:

I hope we are not still using shuttle re-entry tactics 500 hundred years in the future.

How bout this? How did the hover Mule work?

U gonna be smart here Riva?!?!

I would've thought that the hover mule works using either an air cushion, like a regular hovercraft, or some kind of directable jets.

Come to that, how come nobody's floating about when Serenity's in space? By what means is the artificial gravity generated? Not trying to turn this into a trivia thread, but it's something that's been bugging me for a bit. Help an old man out!

---------------------------

"I imagine that if it were fear, my eyes would be wider."

KENT

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by russell:
i think that the heat from entering and exiting the atmosphere is caused by friction and high speed.

That it is caused by friction is a common misconception. Well... certainly part of it will come from friction, but it's negligable when compared to the heat generated when the air in front of the vessel compresses.
It's heat generated from compression, not friction.

CHRISTHECYNIC

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Has anyone commented on the fact that when Mal tells the crew to tie some of the bodies to the nose of the ship, he tosses Simon *ROPE*?!?!

You want to see how different perceptions can be?

Never even occured to me to think that was real rope. In the sense we mean today at least. I suppose anything with wound fibers is rope, perhaps the defintion is even looser than that. I mean climber's rope is hardly the stuff I see at a shipyard and they're both called rope.

I just figured, ya know, people say things and don't mean them. Some people say I tie my dog out, but I don't, nor do I chain her, I clip the dog to a metal wire covered in a plastic sheath. Very few people say, "Clip the dog out," not do a lot of people call it a metal wire in a plastic cover, a lot of people call it a chain, but it isn't.

So Mal says, "Rope them together," and throws Simon something that is gray and coiled. I can honestly say it didn't occur to me to consider it was spun hemp. If it weren't for the fact it was going on the outside of a space ship that's exactly what I would assume.

It's like the word reptile I guess, when someone says, "He bought a reptile," you think an iguana gecko or anole. When someone says, "He bought a reptile bus," you think a segmented bus with joints that allow it to turn corners. (Also known as a snake bus.)

If he had said to rope something up inside Serenity I'd assume it was normal rope, unless I had a reason to think non-normal stuff was cheaper. But since he said outside hemp didn't cross my mind.

-

By the way, the bodies are indeed bolted on. Roped as well.

SHINY

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:30 PM

Yeah, I guess different people perceive or react to things differently; that bit with the corpses and rope, and the fact that getting shot in the back with a laser/stun gun barely fazes Mal were such a stretch that they almost took me out of the movie.

---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!

IMALEAF

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:40 PM

Really in theory it could be hot enough to cause the paint to fuse with the metal. But hey Sci-fi really, they all have their faults. Going from planet to planet in a couple days. It would take us two years to get to Mars. Good question though. But I don't know

~~River: Bible's broken. Contradictions, false logics. Doesn't make sense.~~

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 3:45 PM

According to the novelisation of the movie, the red paint was never meant to be blood. It's mentioned that Reavers paint theit ships with red paint. The patterns are very unusual. Some are distorted Chinese characters, and others are supposed to be similar to the warpaint patterns used by ancient Native American tribes on Earth-that-was.

HAEKELDRACHE

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 4:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by pdcharles:
How bout this? How did the hover Mule work?

I think it could maybe use some kind of Anti-Gravity Technologie. Most of the Ships in Serenity/Firefly aren´t big enough to Produce their own gravitiy (well. it might need the mass of a Death-Star here...), so there musst be some kind of artificial Gravitiy (Spacestations and rotating ships excluded, due to their rotation they can use the centrifugal force to "throw the People outside" which works approximately like Gravity.)

So there might be some kind of Anti-Grav-Tech which keeps the Mule in the Air.

---

"Burn the land and boil the Sea, you can´t take the Sky from me..."

Haekeldrache is german for Crochetdragon

QUEENOFTHENORTH

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 4:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Has anyone commented on the fact that when Mal tells the crew to tie some of the bodies to the nose of the ship, he tosses Simon *ROPE*?!?!

---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!

Well, it is OBVIOUSLY special thermal rope designed to tie one's excess luggage to the top of one's spaceship.

You know, a few suitcases, a few gross, corpsified people, a bike or two, what have you.

"I'm having one of those things - a headache with pictures."

"Sucker! Competitive violence, that's why you're here!"

Like books? Go to this thread: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=14862
to find out how to buy mine!

CITIZEN

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kent:
That it is caused by friction is a common misconception. Well... certainly part of it will come from friction, but it's negligable when compared to the heat generated when the air in front of the vessel compresses.
It's heat generated from compression, not friction.

Erm, no the compression of the Air particles causes friction in the air. The Heat comes entirely from friction, and in fact most of the heat during re-entry comes from the friction with the air hitting the craft, as at high altitudes the pressure is too low for air compression to make that much of an impact.

That is in fact one of the reasons why the temperatures experienced by a craft during re-entry are higher than those during exit, because during exit a lot of the heating happens away from the skin of the spacecraft.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:57 PM

Quote:
Originally wroted by Jayro:
I would've thought that the hover mule works using either an air cushion, like a regular hovercraft, or some kind of directable jets.

Come to that, how come nobody's floating about when Serenity's in space? By what means is the artificial gravity generated? Not trying to turn this into a trivia thread, but it's something that's been bugging me for a bit. Help an old man out!

It looks more like a Anti-Gravity, which is likely since we know they have Gravity generators, thus they just need to set up a Gravity field with a reversed Up-Down axis.

For a theory of FireFly Gravity Tech, go here:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=16026#224033

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

CAUSAL

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ritak7:
The thesis i am reserving my punctuation for (though i still claim the title of iconoclast down with the sanctimonious grammophiles)
*snip*

Using poor grammar and eschewing punctuation do not make you look like an avant iconoclast. They make you look like a poorly educated, inbred sack of meat, thesis notwithstanding.

In addition, foregoing grammar and punctuation rules is just plain inconsiderate of anyone who reads your post; it might make sense as you write it, but anyone else is going to have to interpret, which is a bloody pain in the ass. Punctuation and grammar exist to help you communicate effectively using the written word. They are not some oppressive rule system against which to rebel. Doing so only makes you look like you don't care about what you're saying and don't care about anyone who might read it.

Iconoclast indeed.

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Edited to add:
"Sanctimonious: affecting piousness : hypocritically devout." That would be a good insult to level at someone whose writing is as atrocious as yours. But most of the folks appealing for clarity are themselves using proper grammar and punctuation. Hence the term "sanctimonious" does not apply. If you're going to insult someone, do it correctly.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited to add:
As far as the sanctimonious thing goes, note that most folk are appealing for punctuation and grammar not because they want to change you, but because they can't bloody understand you!
________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

N7XEJ

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 10:45 PM

It means "if you can read this, you're over educated".

RUSSELL

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 11:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kent:
Quote:
Originally posted by russell:
i think that the heat from entering and exiting the atmosphere is caused by friction and high speed.

That it is caused by friction is a common misconception. Well... certainly part of it will come from friction, but it's negligable when compared to the heat generated when the air in front of the vessel compresses.
It's heat generated from compression, not friction.

i never thought about that but it makes perfect sense. the heat caused by the compression is basically heat caused by friction between the molecules no? not the friction from the molecules hitting the object but friction from molecules hitting each other because they are displaced by the object. good info

i dont mean to try and sound like a scientist or something. im actually just a construction worker ;)

RITAK7

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:38 AM

That is cute;)
Can you tell I am striving for my Ph.D because i really was trying to understand it.

CAUSAL

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:50 AM

Quote:
ritak7 of FIREFLYFANS.NET has sent you the following message:

-------------------------

Poor baby you went through all the trouble of looking up sanctimonious and you still didn't understand what it means. Perhaps i should have used italics to denote whimsy. I'm irreverrent and frankly more than a bit indolent hence the sloppy prose. I did not even consider that i was being inconsiderate but now that i have been admonished i shall endeavah to do bettah as we'd say in the Bostonian vernaculah.

So, the part I'm not quite getting is why you'd take the time to insult me in private. As long as you're going to insult one of the people who are getting on your case about your disregard for others on the board, why not just come right out and do it in public? If I'm a "baby" who can't even understand a dictionary, why not expose my stupidity for all to see? If you want to engage in trollish behavior, have the courage to be public about it. Flaunting your lack of regard for proper English then turning around and using "big" words like "indolent" does not impress, nor does the Ph.D candidacy. Why not just treat everyone on the board with a little respect? It will go much further in terms of the way people on the board perceive you.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

RITAK7

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:14 AM

Yowsers a bit sensitive, are ya?
Oh if only i could change the font to give these words the inflection i aiming for.
It was meant to be a gentle ribbing not an insult. The others who critiqued my grammar/punctuation (or more appropriately, lack there of) didn't seem to be as hostile as you yourself were. The other posters who scolded me
seemed a little more easy going while you upbraided me rather vehemently. It was as if they saw my sin as venial while you deemed it mortal. So in jest, tinged with peevishness (peevish is a word peevishness probably not), i started out with poor baby
Big words like indolent c'mon now i was being self-deprecating. I understand now that it may be difficult to get through my original post but try again and you shall see I am so about mocking myself.

CORUM

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:41 AM

Nice to see lots of firefly fans, but I think I have more experience at modelling a story in my head, so here goes:

Serenity is not a ship designed to ram the atmophere like our space shuttle does. Its not aerodynamic, it has huge engines that can thrust at 1g (for lift off) and it lands vertically. It could easily enter an atmosphere as slowly as it pleased.

The friction from the shuttle re-entering isn't caused simply from falling from space. Its caused by the fact that the shuttle had to accelerate to 18,000mph to enter orbit. Aside from its altitude, the heat is produced by having a 300 tonne vehicle hitting a wall of atmosphere and having to dump that 18,000mph of momentum. Someone do that math: 18000mph x 300 tonnes = a lot of energy. Thats without a change in altitude.

That energy doesn't get put into the momentum during launch; only as the atmophere thins a lot does the shuttle go sideways and speed up to 18000mph. It doesnt do that in the thick atmosphere and it doesnt leave a fiery trail or lose radio contact on the way UP.

If you need further rationale, there were lots more dead bodies available on the reaver planet, which is the only time they came down thru atmosphere before they snuck thru the reaver fleet the second time.

Now, how about the blueprints for Serenity I was looking for?

CAUSAL

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ritak7:
Yowsers a bit sensitive, are ya?
Oh if only i could change the font to give these words the inflection i aiming for.
It was meant to be a gentle ribbing not an insult. The others who critiqued my grammar/punctuation (or more appropriately, lack there of) didn't seem to be as hostile as you yourself were. The other posters who scolded me
seemed a little more easy going while you upbraided me rather vehemently. It was as if they saw my sin as venial while you deemed it mortal. So in jest, tinged with peevishness (peevish is a word peevishness probably not), i started out with poor baby
Big words like indolent c'mon now i was being self-deprecating. I understand now that it may be difficult to get through my original post but try again and you shall see I am so about mocking myself.

Well, shit...

A couple of things here:

1) Seems as though I completely missed the point (wouldn't be the first time, of course). You joke+me serious=bad mix. What I saw was you saying, "I don't care if you understand me or not; keep your grammar off my language"--hence the vehemence of my original post. It looked to me like you were voicing a complete lack of regard for every person on the board. This, apparently is not the case, and as the dust settles I'm surprised to find that I'm the one with egg on my face, in spite of having spent the whole time throwing them in your direction.

2) Mea culpa. I'm sorry that my misunderstanding of your statements resulted in an ugly stink. There's precious little high ground left for me to occupy, but admitting a wrong committed usually counts. Not much more to say that won't be counted as excusing myself.

3) Peevishness--should be a word if it isn't.

4) Venial vs. mortal--wins best analogy 2006.

________________________________________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

CITIZEN

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 1:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Corum:
That energy doesn't get put into the momentum during launch; only as the atmophere thins a lot does the shuttle go sideways and speed up to 18000mph. It doesnt do that in the thick atmosphere and it doesnt leave a fiery trail or lose radio contact on the way UP.

It's also a lot to do with angle of attack. During take off the shuttle is exposing a very small profile and thus surface area to the oncoming air, during re-entry the shuttle exposes a much larger surface area in the direction of travel.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

KENT

Friday, January 20, 2006 12:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Erm, no the compression of the Air particles causes friction in the air. The Heat comes entirely from friction, and in fact most of the heat during re-entry comes from the friction with the air hitting the craft, as at high altitudes the pressure is too low for air compression to make that much of an impact.

That is in fact one of the reasons why the temperatures experienced by a craft during re-entry are higher than those during exit, because during exit a lot of the heating happens away from the skin of the spacecraft.

Well that's strange. The way I learnt it is, that air hyper compresses into a shock layer in front of the space craft. The shock layer is so hot that it turns into a plasma (this is the "fire" you see building up around the nose of the craft on entry). The heat from the plasma is then transmitted through heat conduction processes.

(Sorry 'bout the late reply btw)