River. Answers!!!

POSTED BY: 25MyTurn25
UPDATED: Thursday, January 14, 2010 22:22
VIEWED: 29732
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25MYTURN25

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:34 AM

Okay I have a couple of questions regarding River. Only because I lover her character and her lines always seem to have meaning behind them, some of which I don't always catch, so that's why I am posting this.
1) In Serenity When Mal says to the Operative "I know the secret that burned up River Tam's brain" What does he mean. I know he is talking about the Reavers and Miranda, but what does that have to do with hurting River, and If she went to an academy on miranda how come she didn't either become Reaver like or lay down and die.
2) In Ariel when Jayne is looking into an open body holder thing River wakes up and says something, in the Subtittles it says inaudioble or something, does anyone know what she says or is she just mumbling.

Okay I know there is more but I really can't think right now, so if anyone has answers or theorys OR more questions please ask/answer. Thanks

peace. . . .for now

River: You belived her, Made a face.

CHOPPYBADGER

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:40 AM

Gak! I think what 'burned up her brain' was that she was in a room with all the 'big wigs' of the alliance and absorbed every bad secret that they had been involved in. It seems the tests on Miranda was one of the more terrible secrets. River never was on Miranda. The debacle on Miranda took place 10 years ago, if I recall correctly, so I doubt River was there. The whole point why the Operative is seeking her out is because she knows, or is suspected of knowing every bad thing the Alliance did, and of course, sees it as quite damaging to the Alliance's iron grip on humanity. That is my thinking anyway.

Heresy grows from Grottiness...

STAKETHELURK

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:44 AM

1) Throughout the film it’s implied that one of the things making River crazy is the memory of Miranda she picked up off the Alliance leadership. The memory is sort of tangled up in her brain in a way that she doesn’t quite understand it, but its presence seems to be contributing to her lunacy. Hence, once the secret is out, she says “I’m okay.” She’s worked through it and its deleterious effect on her mental state has been remove. She’s still not quite right, though.

River never actually went to an Academy on Miranda. Those weren’t flashbacks as much as dream sequences. She knows what Miranda was like and in her disturbed state places herself there as she struggles to work through the horror locked up inside her brain. But she had never visited Miranda before, so there’s no continuity error.

EDIT: I see ChoppyBadger has beaten me to the punch. Well, I hope this post is still useful to you.

JAYSONAYCH

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 25MyTurn25:
Okay I have a couple of questions regarding River. Only because I lover her character and her lines always seem to have meaning behind them, some of which I don't always catch, so that's why I am posting this.
1) In Serenity When Mal says to the Operative "I know the secret that burned up River Tam's brain" What does he mean. I know he is talking about the Reavers and Miranda, but what does that have to do with hurting River, and If she went to an academy on miranda how come she didn't either become Reaver like or lay down and die.
2) In Ariel when Jayne is looking into an open body holder thing River wakes up and says something, in the Subtittles it says inaudioble or something, does anyone know what she says or is she just mumbling.

Okay I know there is more but I really can't think right now, so if anyone has answers or theorys OR more questions please ask/answer. Thanks

peace. . . .for now

River: You belived her, Made a face.

1) She was never on Miranda. She telepathically learned of what happened on Miranda elsewhere. At the beginning of the film, it was mentioned how she had been put into the same room as high ranking government officials who knew secrets...one of those secrets was what happened on Miranda. The events were highly traumatic for River to take and the knowledge of what happened were a big part of her becoming mentally unstable (though the experiments I'm sure also helped quite a bit). Ergo, knowing the secret "burned up her brain."

2) I'll have to check...I'm not sure...

RIVER6213

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:47 AM

River should find a time machine and take a trip back to the current-Earth-That-Is....she would go insane here.

25MYTURN25

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:52 AM

Okay thanks for all the answers on my first question It all seems so simple now lol, feel like an idiot I do.....lol anyways what about (2) and another one to add to the list

3) In Ariel River has a whole scene on talking about "Christmas, and Coal and Don't look in the closet it's greedy." I was just wondering does anyone know the meaning behind that? Cause stuff like that doesn't sound just like random giberish.

Trust me there will be more hahahahahaha

Mal: He'll kill you, kill every last one of them if it comes to that and he he'll sleep well that night.
Nandi: Rance Burgess is just a man, and I wont let any man take what's mine. I doubt you'de do differently in my position.
Mal: well lady. . .You're my kind of stupid

KATJEN

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:00 AM

Quote:

3) In Ariel River has a whole scene on talking about "Christmas, and Coal and Don't look in the closet it's greedy." I was just wondering does anyone know the meaning behind that? Cause stuff like that doesn't sound just like random giberish.

I assumed she was talking about Jayne being too greedy? He's definitely on the naughty kid list during that eppy up until the end...

THESOAPBOXER

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:14 AM

Quote:
2) In Ariel when Jayne is looking into an open body holder thing River wakes up and says something, in the Subtittles it says inaudioble or something, does anyone know what she says or is she just mumbling.

She says, "Copper for a kiss?" Why? 'Cause River's crazy.

__________________________
Juhguh JEE HUA jun kuhPAH!

CHOPPYBADGER

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:51 AM

The word 'copper' is implying a penny. But that is beside the point, you are right, she is just craaaazy!!!

The only law on the battlefield of the 41st millenium every Grot should know is: 'old da pin, fro' deh uvah part!

JACQUI

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:06 AM

"Copper for a kiss?"

I always figured she was refering to Jayne's turning them in.

"Copper" being the money and "kiss" being the acclaim he thought he was going to get after he made the ship 'safe' again without the 'fugies' on board.

*~*~*
"He's hurting a woman, he really *is* a bad guy... and I wouldn't call him a gentleman."
- Kyle, 9, watching 'Serenity'.

THESOAPBOXER

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:17 AM

Wouldn't it be "Copper and a kiss" then?

But, yeah, it probably was some sort of premonition on River's part, just not a very well communicated one. Even River seemed to be confused as to why she just said that.

_____________________________________________
Could you please just make it stranger? Just stranger. Odder. Could be weirder. More bizarre. How about uncanny? ~Joss Whedon

THEONETRUEBIX

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:20 AM

Quote:
Those weren’t flashbacks as much as dream sequences.

Well, the first one was probably a dream-memory of an actual classroom conversation she had when she was in GenEd, prior to going to the Alliance academy (except for the stylus to the head). It's the one classroom sequence that isn't presented in the blown-out-haze used to designate the dreams she has later on.

STDOUBT

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 9:14 AM

Quote:
3) In Ariel River has a whole scene on talking about "Christmas, and Coal and Don't look in the closet it's greedy." I was just wondering does anyone know the meaning behind that? Cause stuff like that doesn't sound just like random giberish.

I've mused that while in custody, River realized
that Jayne had sold them out, and became serene
and almost forgiving of him. The Christmas speech
*may* allude to Jayne's own crushing childhood.
Always being taken from -having to scrap for everything he got. Makes a nice explanation for his
mercenary lifestyle. It's always struck me odd how
Jayne is so intent on having her "shut up, or I will
shut you up.." May be she's seeing right into him.
And it's wiggin' him out.

MRBEN

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:19 AM

"Copper for a kiss" I'm sure is a literary reference of some sort, but I'm blowed if I can remember where. In terms of etymology it's likely to be a phrase associated with prostitution, which maybe indicates how River feels about the whole deal. Plus you have the nice double meaning of the word 'copper' - money and policeman.

I always thought that the bit about Christmas in Ariel was River talking about Christmas in the Academy - hadn't thought about it being about Jayne.

mrben

"Carpe Aptenodytes"
http://www.jedimoose.org

KIBBSTER

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by thesoapboxer:
Wouldn't it be "Copper and a kiss" then?

But, yeah, it probably was some sort of premonition on River's part, just not a very well communicated one. Even River seemed to be confused as to why she just said that.

_____________________________________________
Could you please just make it stranger? Just stranger. Odder. Could be weirder. More bizarre. How about uncanny? ~Joss Whedon

If she had a premonition about Jayne could "Copper for a kiss" be referring to Jayne selling them out with a Judas kiss?

He was pretending to protect them on Ariel when he sold them out.

So Copper for a kiss seems to be reasonable in this case.

DONCOAT

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 4:30 PM

Well, the only Google references for "copper for a kiss" are Firefly related.

My initial interpretation was that it's a variant on "Penny for your thoughts" -- that is, an expression that would be used in some social situation to indicate that you're interested in someone. Possibly a tradition like Christmas mistletoe?

If this is accurate, then I don't think it was directed at Jayne in particular. Maybe it's a remnant of a romantic dream River was having as she woke up.

But then she continues, "They're doing it backwards; walking up the downslide." This sounds like some random crazy talk. I don't see how it fits in with the situation, unless it's just an inside-out way of saying "there's something wrong here".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't disagree on any particular point.

MUIRGHEAL

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 4:45 PM

I could be way off here but I think the copper for a kiss thing is aluding to Judas betraying Jesus, taking a bag of money and then kissing Jesus before handing him over the Pilat's men.

That he had totally betrayed them and then tried to make it seem like he was trying to save them. Covering his own behind. In that episode he went from being real hateful to them to suddenly being all chummy and I think in her way she was hinting that she knew he had betrayed them.

Muirgheal
A Shiny Happy Person

KIBBSTER

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Muirgheal:
I could be way off here but I think the copper for a kiss thing is aluding to Judas betraying Jesus, taking a bag of money and then kissing Jesus before handing him over the Pilat's men.

That he had totally betrayed them and then tried to make it seem like he was trying to save them. Covering his own behind. In that episode he went from being real hateful to them to suddenly being all chummy and I think in her way she was hinting that she knew he had betrayed them.

Muirgheal
A Shiny Happy Person

That's what I meant, but you said it so much better than me!

USMC

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:54 PM

River is Hot!

PRINCESSROHANNEN

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 25MyTurn25:

3) In Ariel River has a whole scene on talking about "Christmas, and Coal and Don't look in the closet it's greedy." I was just wondering does anyone know the meaning behind that? Cause stuff like that doesn't sound just like random giberish.

I always figured that particular bit of gibberish to be a metaphor for Jayne's disappointment. Christmas is the reward that Jayne was looking forward to for turning the two of them in. When the fed stabbed Jayne in the back, he took away Christmas.

I like to keep in mind when I listen to River talk that she's NUTS. I imagine that most of the time, she's trying to convey actual coherent ideas, but her brains are so scrambled that everything she wants to say gets jumbled on the way out. Plus, the voices in her head have got to be a little confusing. I don't think she can even tell the difference between dreaming and waking life.

HAEKELDRACHE

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by USMC:
River is Hot!

Not very qualified, but i totally agree ;)

---

"Burn the land and boil the Sea, you can´t take the Sky from me..."

Haekeldrache is german for Crochetdragon

HARTMEISTER

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:35 PM

It could also be a warning for anyone in general looking into River's mind (and her secrets she posseses) has a penalty. For example in "Ariel" the Blue Sun people kill off the policemen who process River because they do an interrogation of her.

Select to view spoiler:

It could also be a warning to Jayne not to turn her in or kill her off because she is going to save their lives at the end of Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by 25MyTurn25:

3) In Ariel River has a whole scene on talking about "Christmas, and Coal and Don't look in the closet it's greedy." I was just wondering does anyone know the meaning behind that? Cause stuff like that doesn't sound just like random giberish.

BOWIE

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:01 PM

River
They took Christmas away.Came down the stairs for the shiny presents, but they took the tree and
the stockings. Nothing left but coal.
Jayne
Christmas?
Simon.
River, whata re you talking about?

River
Christmas. You can't open your
presents before.And don't look in the closet, either.That's greedy. It's not in the
spirit of the holiday.

My translation.
River
They aren't paying you. You were so excited about getting paid, came down with your hopes up, but instead your being arrested with us.

Jayne.
I have a bad feeling about what your saying.
Simon:
I have no clue. I really don't understand River
River.
You can't count on getting paid before. Don't look for bad ways of making money, its greedy. Its wrong to pretend to protect people and then sell them, not in the spirit of family.

thats my feelings anyway.

If you play Nationstates.net check out the region Firefly.

DANIELWRIGHTMUSIC

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 9:48 PM

Pretty sure that "Copper for a kiss" was a reference to Judas's betrayal of Jesus. It would makes sense being that River had been spending time with Book's Bible. Yeah, pretty sure about this one.

HAEKELDRACHE

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by danielwrightmusic:
Pretty sure that "Copper for a kiss" was a reference to Judas's betrayal of Jesus. It would makes sense being that River had been spending time with Book's Bible. Yeah, pretty sure about this one.

Copper? Judas? Huh?

Okay... this may be right. But maybe its just one of Rivers twistet memories. Maybe it´s just referring to Girls which "sell" a Kiss for a Copper?
Rivers way "tripping down memory lane" is some kind of disturbed, she cannot repress Memories like we can do; so every Moment in her past life is like the present for her, River can´t differentiate her memories.
Maybe it was just a Flashback, who knows?

Not everything has to mean more than it obviously does ;)

---

"Burn the land and boil the Sea, you can´t take the Sky from me..."

Haekeldrache is german for Crochetdragon

DANIELWRIGHTMUSIC

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:28 PM

But, but, its almost a direct quote from "Jesus Christ Superstar". Ugh, maybe I just grew up around to many bibles but it was the first thing that came to my mind when the words left her mouth during the episode. Ya know, cause Judas betrays Jesus for copper (pretty sure, the coins during that period) than ya know, kisses him on the cheek. Kinda how Jayne betrays River, minus the kiss and all. Which in my mind is why River says it in the first place, because she wants Jayne to kiss her, cause she has a crush on him, or not. It is quite possible however that I have no idea what I'm talking about.

HAEKELDRACHE

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:32 PM

Yes. And maybe you´re right. But we´ll have to ask Joss for enlightenment ;)

---

"Burn the land and boil the Sea, you can´t take the Sky from me..."

Haekeldrache is german for Crochetdragon

SCHOONER

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:48 PM

I thought Judas was paid thirty peices of silver, not copper?

I thought this line referred to the old practice of putting copper coins over a dead person's eyes, so they would be able to pay Charon's fee to cross over. Since River had just returned 'from the dead', she would have a couple of unused copper coins. Maybe a slight touch of River/Jayne shipping, there?

SAMEERTIA

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:

I always figured that particular bit of gibberish to be a metaphor for Jayne's disappointment. Christmas is the reward that Jayne was looking forward to for turning the two of them in. When the fed stabbed Jayne in the back, he took away Christmas.

That's what I thought, too, PrincessRohannen, that she was telling the story of Jayne being betrayed by the greed of others, just as his own greed betrayed River and Simon.

25MYTURN25

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:33 PM

Also someone mentioned in ariel River says, "we're doing it backwards, going up the downslide." Or somehting like that. What is she talking about?

River - You belived her, made a face.

25MYTURN25

Thursday, January 19, 2006 4:27 AM

Another thing, in "Safe" River is tied to the post and Simon is beside her, and she says "Post Holer, digging holes for posts." I know that is what kaylee says earlier in the episode but what is behinde that? and why does that make simon do what he does? I probably know the answer but opinions are really good to know.

River - You belived her, made a face.

SAMEERTIA

Thursday, January 19, 2006 4:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 25MyTurn25:
Also someone mentioned in ariel River says, "we're doing it backwards, going up the downslide." Or somehting like that. What is she talking about?

River - You belived her, made a face.

I think she was referring to the doctor who was making the mistake with his patient. "He's doing it backwards. Going up the downslide".
Giving a vaso-restrictor to a heart-surgery patient would have been doing exactly that.

I just wanted to cheer for Simon right there, and the proud look that River gives him when he comes back... priceless!

SAMEERTIA

Thursday, January 19, 2006 4:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 25MyTurn25:
Another thing, in "Safe" River is tied to the post and Simon is beside her, and she says "Post Holer, digging holes for posts." I know that is what kaylee says earlier in the episode but what is behinde that? and why does that make simon do what he does? I probably know the answer but opinions are really good to know.

River - You belived her, made a face.

I think the best people to answer that one are Tim Minear and Joss Whedon. To me it's one of those brilliant multi-layered moments, where things come to a head. In fact, all of "Safe" is like that. That's why I think it's my favorite episode.

River says ALOT in "Safe"; her swearing fit that ends with her looking straight at Mal and saying "You're not him."
Mal isn't who?

Later, we learn about their father practically abandoning River and rejecting Simon for trying to save her.
Did she mean Mal wasn't her father? Later, when she says, "Daddy will come for us, and I'll get better." was she really referring to Mal, confusing the patriarchal (sp?) figures in her life?

"Post holer- for digging holes for posts." Repeating Kaylee's words- digging up a 'happy' memory, perhaps? Perhaps trying to show Simon that she's coherent?

Or something even stronger- Kaylee comforts Simon. She loves and admires him. In their darkest hours, is River comforting Simon by recalling Kaylee's words?

Or perhaps it's all of the above.

THEONETRUEBIX

Thursday, January 19, 2006 4:55 AM

Quote:
River says ALOT in "Safe"; her swearing fit that ends with her looking straight at Mal and saying "You're not him."
Mal isn't who?

Ok, I just watched this episode again recently and I do not recall ever hearing her say this.

CHOPPYBADGER

Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:41 AM

Back then, didn't they pay stuff with goats or cuneiform clay tablets or something?!!

_________________________________________
The only law on the battlefield of the 41st millenium every Grot should know is: 'old da pin, fro' deh uvah part!

SAMEERTIA

Thursday, January 19, 2006 6:18 AM

It's there.

Right in the beginning, she swears and throws Simon's med kit just as Mal enters.
At the end of her swearing she looks straight at him and says "Your not him."

Mal looks at Simon and says, "So, she's added swearing and hurling about of things to her repetoire."
Simon: "She's just having a bad day is all."

Mal: "No, a bad day is when someones yelling spooks the cattle. You ever seen cattle stampede when it's got nowhere to go?"

25MYTURN25

Sunday, January 22, 2006 8:07 AM

Little ol' me got y'all yet another question about the ever mysterious ways of river tam. In Safe (again) At the very beggining right after the flashback River says something like

"Stupid S O B dressed me up like a gorram doll!" Uhhh what? Is this refering to her expreince at the academy or something I don't know, but answer if you do

River - You belived her, made a face.

KYLELITKE

Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:12 AM

For the record, as far as "Copper for a kiss" goes, I kind of got the same "Judas/Jesus" reference...Judas sold Jesus out by going up to him and kissing him, to let the soldiers know which one was Jesus. It struck me as one of those crazy River things where she kind of knows what's going on, but not entirely, and nobody else would ever know what she was talking about.

KYLELITKE

Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by schooner:
I thought Judas was paid thirty peices of silver, not copper?

I thought this line referred to the old practice of putting copper coins over a dead person's eyes, so they would be able to pay Charon's fee to cross over. Since River had just returned 'from the dead', she would have a couple of unused copper coins. Maybe a slight touch of River/Jayne shipping, there?

You're right, it was thirty pieces of silver, but on the other hand, "Thirty pieces of silver for a kiss" doesn't sound quite good. ;)

In all honesty though, Judas received thirty pieces of silver, but since then the phrase has been used in other ways, but essentially boils down to "money to sell me out", no matter which words are used. I honestly don't know for sure what the intent was, but I always assumed it was a Judas reference without being obvious.

And just as another point of curiosity, wasn't it just a couple of episodes before (Jaynestown, I believe) that River was messing with Book's bible and trying to fix it? Could be where she picked up the Judas thing, even if she changed the phrase. Just a thought.

STDOUBT

Sunday, January 22, 2006 10:04 AM

The mentioning of the silver reminds me -

I haven't seen anyone on this board mention that
right after betraying our BDH, Mr. Universe turns
to the Operative and says "..hand me my thirty coin..". An obvious reference to Christ's betrayal.
Scary!!!!
edit: P.S. I am wigging out that I can't find any
non-FF/Serenity reference to "copper for a kiss".
If that's truly original to Whedon -the boy IS a
gorram genius.
"Copper for a kiss" Just sounds SO real-life Olde
England!!!!!

JELLYBEAN

Sunday, January 22, 2006 10:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bowie:
River
They took Christmas away.Came down the stairs for the shiny presents, but they took the tree and
the stockings. Nothing left but coal.
Jayne
Christmas?
Simon.
River, whata re you talking about?

River
Christmas. You can't open your
presents before.And don't look in the closet, either.That's greedy. It's not in the
spirit of the holiday.

My translation.
River
They aren't paying you. You were so excited about getting paid, came down with your hopes up, but instead your being arrested with us.

Jayne.
I have a bad feeling about what your saying.
Simon:
I have no clue. I really don't understand River
River.
You can't count on getting paid before. Don't look for bad ways of making money, its greedy. Its wrong to pretend to protect people and then sell them, not in the spirit of family.

thats my feelings anyway.

That was more or less my interpretation it as well. It struck me that she really did seem to be directing the comment at Jayne. I didn't quite get it all the first time I watched it but second time 'round I was fairly certain that she was acknowledging that Jayne had betrayed them only to miss out on his reward and get arrested with them.

RHYIANAN

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 7:02 AM

The "copper for a kiss" thing could also have been a reference to ancient greeks. They would put a copper coin in the mouths of dead children. Since both her and simon were obviously educated (remember the egyptian reference?) she could have picked up that fact somewhere in her jumbled brain and said it as a joke. If I remember right, she laughs after saying it.

Wash: Yeah, but psychic? That sounds like science fiction.
Zoe: You live on a spaceship, dear.

NOSADSEVEN

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 5:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JellyBean:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bowie:
River
They took Christmas away.Came down the stairs for the shiny presents, but they took the tree and
the stockings. Nothing left but coal.
Jayne
Christmas?
Simon.
River, whata re you talking about?

River
Christmas. You can't open your
presents before.And don't look in the closet, either.That's greedy. It's not in the
spirit of the holiday.

My translation.
River
They aren't paying you. You were so excited about getting paid, came down with your hopes up, but instead your being arrested with us.

Jayne.
I have a bad feeling about what your saying.
Simon:
I have no clue. I really don't understand River
River.
You can't count on getting paid before. Don't look for bad ways of making money, its greedy. Its wrong to pretend to protect people and then sell them, not in the spirit of family.

thats my feelings anyway.

That was more or less my interpretation it as well. It struck me that she really did seem to be directing the comment at Jayne. I didn't quite get it all the first time I watched it but second time 'round I was fairly certain that she was acknowledging that Jayne had betrayed them only to miss out on his reward and get arrested with them.

Same take here - and I love that she is teasing him about it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

THEPISTONENGINE

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 8:37 PM

I agree with what other people have said, River did gleam Miranda from the Alliance parliment and she did get better when she realized what the whole truth was, but...
I also think Mal's quote is also his own misunderstanding of the situation. He sees the truth burning up River's mind, but he isn't necessarily thinking about the drugs and lobotomies.
Maybe I'm just biased, but I love it when dialog shows a character to misunderstand something, especially so subtlely. Makes them human. (He had a sword stuck through him and still kicked the crap out of the operative, something has to show he's not infallible)

Quote:
Originally posted by 25MyTurn25:
1) In Serenity When Mal says to the Operative "I know the secret that burned up River Tam's brain" What does he mean. I know he is talking about the Reavers and Miranda, but what does that have to do with hurting River, and If she went to an academy on miranda how come she didn't either become Reaver like or lay down and die.

GRAYALBATROSS

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 11:31 PM

The "Going up the downslide" thing is a reference to the fact that they were going from the Mourge to the Recovery Ward. Doing it backwards.

***
When in doubt, consult the hamster.

Also, I can kill you with my brain

ZEEK

Wednesday, January 25, 2006 11:50 PM

I really never put "Copper for a kiss" as being a read she had on what was going on. Mainly because right after it Jayne acts way too nervous and that's when you see her get the read on him and it hits her what he's planning. At least that's always what I thought the look on her face was.

Unless it's that her mind read that he was going to betray them. Her mouth spit it out. Then she actually processed it consciously and figured it out.

Either way I don't really see Joss using two Judas references in the same verse. He's more creative than that.

LITTLEMOUSE

Thursday, February 2, 2006 5:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 25MyTurn25:
Another thing, in "Safe" River is tied to the post and Simon is beside her, and she says "Post Holer, digging holes for posts." I know that is what kaylee says earlier in the episode but what is behinde that? and why does that make simon do what he does? I probably know the answer but opinions are really good to know.

River - You belived her, made a face.

As you noticed, she's actually tied to a post. A couple of hours earlier she was playing with the same kind of instrument that dug the hole for the post that she is now tied too. She thinks it's ironically funny.

------------
"People tell you things all the time without talking. The way they move; the way they aren't talking." -River Tam, R. Tam Sessions: Session 1 Excerpt

ELWOODMOM

Thursday, February 2, 2006 6:50 AM

Reading this thread is very enlightening!

ASARIAN

Thursday, February 2, 2006 10:27 AM

Hi 25myturn25,

Very pleased to meet you. Any friend of River is a friend of mine. :)

River, as you know by now, was never on Miranda. In fact, what happened at Miranda happened several years ago. We know this, because Kaylee suddenly remembers the name (after the Maidenhead fight):

Kaylee: Wait a tick; yeah. Some years back there was a call for workers to settle on Miranda.

The mishap with the "pax" (G-23 Paxilon Hydrochlorate) is the big secret the Allience is afraid River knows (a rather cute name for their 'pacifier', as 'pax', of course, is Latin for 'peace'). And why are they afraid River knows? The Operative lays it all out:

Operative: Do you know what your sin is, Doctor? ... It's Pride.
(Operative shows recording of Dr. Mathias saying to Simon)
Dr. Mathias: Key members of Parliament have personally observed this subject.
(Operative pauses recording)
Operative: "Key members of Parliament." ... Key. The minds behind every diplomatic and covert operation in the galaxy. And you put them in a room with a psychic!

Later, after River woke up from the effects of the safe phrase, she hints to knowing things that are not hers:

River: The memory. It isn't mine. And I shouldn't have to carry it. It isn't mine.

As for "Copper for a kiss", I think it really means: a penny for your thought. As in: "I'd really like to know what you're thinking." I think River is, in fact, referring to Jayne's betrayal, but in a more subtle way than the whole Judas' thing. It's more like a tease; like: "Hmm, wouldn't it be interesting to know what you're thinking?" Like psyching Jayne out. Only River really knows what she meant, of course. :)

"Stupid SOB, dress me up like a Gorram Doll!"

This is an interesting one. :) I do not have the official script (as I am shamefully new to this myself, actually); but maybe she's saying:

"Dress me up like a Gorham doll!"

As Gorham dolls are rare, collectible child dolls. Although "gorram" really does fit the scene better (wasn't she cussing in Chinese, thereafter?). We need an expert in here. Unless there's already an official script proving me wrong; nah mei guan-shee.

P.S. Okay, novacane is wearing off (had an early dental appointment). Time to go to sleep again. :)

"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam.

BLADEACHILLES

Thursday, February 2, 2006 9:52 PM

Concerning the comment "Copper for a kiss"- my first reaction to that line was something along the lines of River wanting to kiss Jayne because she's crushing on him, and she brings up Jayne's love for money as a sort of 'if you kiss me I will pay you.', and she just blurted it out because she was waking up disorientated. Upon further pondering, I am more in agreement to the thought that it refers to Jayne's betrayal.

One more interesting River moment I want to bring up is that in OiS, she doesn't wake up Jayne to help fight Early. Was it because she doesn't trust him? Or maybe because the situation called for a little subtlety and Jayne would have just barged in shooting. Any thoughts out there?

"If I was creating the world, I wouldn't have wasted my time with daffodills and butterflies! I would've started with lasers. 8 o'clock. Day One." -Evil Incarnate

SPOOTER

Thursday, February 2, 2006 10:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Hi 25myturn25,

Very pleased to meet you. Any friend of River is a friend of mine. :)

River, as you know by now, was never on Miranda. In fact, what happened at Miranda happened several years ago. We know this, because Kaylee suddenly remembers the name (after the Maidenhead fight):

Kaylee: Wait a tick; yeah. Some years back there was a call for workers to settle on Miranda.

The mishap with the "pax" (G-23 Paxilon Hydrochlorate) is the big secret the Allience is afraid River knows (a rather cute name for their 'pacifier', as 'pax', of course, is Latin for 'peace'). And why are they afraid River knows? The Operative lays it all out:

Operative: Do you know what your sin is, Doctor? ... It's Pride.
(Operative shows recording of Dr. Mathias saying to Simon)
Dr. Mathias: Key members of Parliament have personally observed this subject.
(Operative pauses recording)
Operative: "Key members of Parliament." ... Key. The minds behind every diplomatic and covert operation in the galaxy. And you put them in a room with a psychic!

Later, after River woke up from the effects of the safe phrase, she hints to knowing things that are not hers:

River: The memory. It isn't mine. And I shouldn't have to carry it. It isn't mine.

As for "Copper for a kiss", I think it really means: a penny for your thought. As in: "I'd really like to know what you're thinking." I think River is, in fact, referring to Jayne's betrayal, but in a more subtle way than the whole Judas' thing. It's more like a tease; like: "Hmm, wouldn't it be interesting to know what you're thinking?" Like psyching Jayne out. Only River really knows what she meant, of course. :)

"Stupid SOB, dress me up like a Gorram Doll!"

This is an interesting one. :) I do not have the official script (as I am shamefully new to this myself, actually); but maybe she's saying:

"Dress me up like a Gorham doll!"

As Gorham dolls are rare, collectible child dolls. Although "gorram" really does fit the scene better (wasn't she cussing in Chinese, thereafter?). We need an expert in here. Unless there's already an official script proving me wrong; nah mei guan-shee.

P.S. Okay, novacane is wearing off (had an early dental appointment). Time to go to sleep again. :)

"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam.

I think the line "dressed me up like a goram doll" is a reference to the fact that Simon has her in a dress and somewhat "fancy", and she doesn't like it....that was how I took it anyway.

ASARIAN

Friday, February 3, 2006 12:54 AM

Quote:
I think the line "dressed me up like a goram doll" is a reference to the fact that Simon has her in a dress and somewhat "fancy", and she doesn't like it....that was how I took it anyway.

I hear ya; and I agree. :) Question still remains then: did she mean 'Gorham' doll? Or really 'gorram' doll?

"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam.

DC4BS

Friday, February 3, 2006 2:59 AM

I dunno.

I gotta side with the bible refrence betrayal of Jesus for the "Copper for a kiss" line.

The very next word in the script is "Jesu--!" exclaimed by Judas himself (Jayne).

From the Ariel script at:
http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/firefly/season1/firefly-108.htm

RIVER: A copper for a kiss.
(Jayne jumps -- she startled the hell out of him.)
JAYNE: Jesu--! What -- what did you say?

The context definately leads me to think that is the correct refrence.

------------------------------------------
dc4bs

SEADOG

Friday, February 3, 2006 6:25 AM

Time Bandits. Great movie.

Ever been with a warrior woman?

ANOTHERSKY

Wednesday, April 23, 2008 6:02 PM

NOTE: LONG POST
I didn't know where to put all this. Mostly I agree with what's been said but there are a few places I combine or differ. Under each heading I explain why. If I'm factually wrong, please correct me.

MIRANDA

Serenity is really when we get to see the "Miranda" flashbacks. At the beginning of the movie (flashback parts), after Simon rescues River and they join the ship (hence "prior" to the series 'firefly') we see flashbacks of River as a child, presumably 'at' 'The Academy' on 'Miranda'. She did go to the Academy, but it wasn't on Miranda.

What happened was (if any of you frequently remember your nightmares you already know):

Because River learned about Miranda, in a horrifying direct mental experience at the Academy, they both become melded together (this fits with Simon's amygdala theory in 'Ariel', about not being able to filter any emotional current).
Later we see her in her metal-plated lab suit walking through the empty classroom, and I think it's pretty clear.

[Her line in her 'flashback', when the teacher interrupts her fiddling during their 'world alliance discussion' {lol, River has ADD} and River says " We're in their homes..(...).and in their minds. And we haven't the right." It's not just a dissident political opinion when interpreted this way.
She's referring to herself. The Alliance is in her mind, taking away her childhood, her memories of home, her concept of herself as a being, as separate from the Alliance and what they've done to her(besides the horrible experiments themselves).
But, going back to why the secret of Miranda is even more horrifying to her confused mind: as she is an 'agent' now of the Alliance, she is ***partly responsible for the events on Miranda***. In her 'dream' she was going to the Academy, being forced to learn all this--all jumbled up in the training, whatever they were experimenting on her for.

The reason for her mind just 'shutting off' sometimes---the swearing strings, the blank stares, the refusal to communicate even in metaphors---always seem to happen when someone she is emotionally attatched to (Mal, Simon, Kaylee) is around and not 'protecting' her.

COPPER FOR A KISS
There are constant ancient greek references around Simon--his field of logic, medicine etc.
So I think the coin in mouth has some vaidity.

I think, if I'm allowed to, that if not literary (I thought that too!), It's a mix of
Depening on the level/depth of Joss Whedon's knowledge of several sources, it could mix:

1.) The Jesus Reference ( it was 30 pieces of silver, not copper, then,) just like Jayne who once caught by the feds, tried to go back on his plan. Judas threw his payment back at the feet of Jesus' accusers later on that night. But he comes to a bad end: he bought a field with the money and committed suicide there.
Apt metaphor, if this was intended.

2.) The coin in the mouths of children. This is really good, Rhiyanan. The fact that they are in morgue cases (coffins), and "wake up" from being 'dead'---helpless and innocent (like children) at the hands of Jayne
(WHAT WAS MAL THINKING? LEAVE JAYNE WITH THEM IN THE SAME EPISODE? WHY JAYNE?)
who was about to be really dispicable and sell them out. River knows their death warrants (or something worse) have been signed when she wakes up #1 in a central planet hospital morgue=do not want and #2, the first (and only) person in sight is ol' Jayne.

In it's form and pronunciation by River it recalls the episode with Badger(before or after), where she creates the cockney-dialect diversion for them, and placates Badger from being a lot more harsh. She's the 'poor guttersnipe' who knows they're doin her wrong, but can't do anything about it.

3.)Another possible biblical reference: One of Jesus' parables talks about an old widow who puts in the collection plate for the poor her last two copper coins, as an example of true generosity and sacrifice for the Lord. The amount is not 'less' because it is 'all she has'. So, relating to this is point 4.). Might be mixed in with

ZZETTA13

Wednesday, April 23, 2008 8:40 PM

#2 "A copper for a kiss." I alway took as meaning the same as " A penny for your thoughts." since she catches Jayne staring down the tube lost in thought.

Z

Edit: Man I just noticed this threads over 2 years old.....holy smoly!

DONCOAT

Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:43 PM

I just had a strange thought. Perhaps it was mentioned above, but I didn't re-read the whole thread.

What if "Copper for a kiss" is a mixed metaphor? The "copper" part could mean 'policeman' rather than 'coin', while the "kiss" is (as many have suggested) the kiss of betrayal (Jesus and/or organized crime).

River could be saying that she knows Jayne was in the process of selling her out to the Alliance, but the message is lost in the layers of metaphor.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

PHYRELIGHT

Wednesday, April 23, 2008 10:00 PM

I always thought the "copper for a kiss" line was a reference to an event in Jayne's past that we have yet to learn or may never learn about.

Darksiders can keep their cookies. We have better writers.

Grrr. Argghh.

Patiently waiting to see Cap'n Hammerpants sing!

AUDDIE

Wednesday, April 23, 2008 11:34 PM

i also wondered why jubal early saying that maybe he is santa clause coming down the chimmney with presents.. or something to that effect. i wondered if he also went to "the academy" when he was young. he was just as strange as river

FREEBROWNCOAT

Thursday, April 24, 2008 1:27 AM

Bowie, Doncoat and all the rest: A most impressive analysis on everyone;s part.

For me, it shows the depth of writing and of the characters. With River there is just so much to see if she is talking purely in metaphor. It may be her mind can only relate to childhood imagery, trying to put it in adult times but not quite capable of getting there. Instead, putting out mature observations in terms she understood (or not understood) as a child. When she was whole and sane.

None of the crew can really get into her zone, with the exception of her comments on cows in SAFE, so they only see unconnected ramblings. Of course we can't get too serious in analysis. Why would anyone understand that it takes 8.3 seconds to drain the blood from a human body, given adequate suctioning systems?

My hat's off to Tima and Joss and the others for the quality of dialog, the applicabilty to everyday living and breadth of feeling they convey.

"Buried in layers of psychosis."

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Thursday, April 24, 2008 7:28 AM

Copper for a kiss would be a centuries old copy of "Penny for your thoughts" - no pennies in the verse.
Her volume fades as she become conscious, reads Jaynes mind, and finds he has betrayed them. From that point forward, she complains to Simon that she does not want to go back to the Institute, which is where he is leading her when he follows Jayne's directions. Until she tells him about it in Trash.

BORIS

Thursday, April 24, 2008 7:45 AM

I think River's insanity occurred because of what was done to her...before that I think she was just Mildly Autistic...which is not a bad thing as long as people don't try to mess with it...actually you are right she would not cope in our current time...the complex and at times nonsensical social expectations would turn her mind to mud. lets just leave her in a time where she's safe and looked after, and gets to fly a spaceship.

SHINYGOODGUY

Thursday, April 24, 2008 3:29 PM

The whole copper for a kiss thing is pretty interesting. I think that she was speaking to Jayne and sensing his betrayal. She was reading his emotions at the moment. I think it could be a reference to Jesus being sold out by Judas. You know 30 pieces of silver and then he identifies him to the Romans by kissing him on the cheek. She is sensing his betrayal, but in her state cannot make the connection.
As for the Christmas comment I believe another poster nailed it saying that it was probably in reference to Jayne's past.

Shiny! Let's be bad guys!

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Friday, April 25, 2008 4:58 AM

Also keep in mind Ariel took place in mid-late December 2517. Hence "Christmas."

AVA1990

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 11:39 AM

It's

"Copper for a kiss"

Just watched it

RGS

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:13 PM

You have to admit Joss and Tim are wordsmiths in that the writing on Firefly/Serenity every word said has meaning to it .

Yes Mal was talking about what River gleaned from those members of Parliment about Miranda and how it disturbed her mind so of that information .

"A copper for a kiss" she said when she 1st woke up at the hospital mayve meant to tell Jayne she knows whats up . The "Don't look in the closet for presents " and "I don't want to go back to the instute .I'll be good " .... River knows whats happening but Simon poor Simon should have known what she was saying to him , after all she is his sister .

"Good ..Bad ... I'm the one with the gun !!" Ash Army of Darkness

ANOTHERSKY

Tuesday, January 12, 2010 7:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SameErtia:
Quote:
Originally posted by 25MyTurn25:
Also someone mentioned in ariel River says, "we're doing it backwards, going up the downslide." Or somehting like that. What is she talking about?

River - You belived her, made a face.

I think she was referring to the doctor who was making the mistake with his patient. "He's doing it backwards. Going up the downslide".
Giving a vaso-restrictor to a heart-surgery patient would have been doing exactly that.

Or the fact that you take "dead" people (DOAs)in coffins into a hospital, where they are "resurrected"-- ie going up the downslide, as in reversing the natural process. You don't slide up a slide--gravity, a natural law makes that impossible.

Also, at this time Mal and Zoe are literally going the "wrong" way (up instead of down), when they are stopped by the doctor: "the morgue is that way". Doing it wrong results in the possibility of being caught and is a nice little suspenseful pronouncement.
__

Going for a ride.

ANOTHERSKY

Tuesday, January 12, 2010 7:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by boris:
I think River's insanity occurred because of what was done to her...before that I think she was just Mildly Autistic...which is not a bad thing as long as people don't try to mess with it...actually you are right she would not cope in our current time...the complex and at times nonsensical social expectations would turn her mind to mud. lets just leave her in a time where she's safe and looked after, and gets to fly a spaceship.

Naw. Before the Academy, she was just a bloody genius. Profoundly gifted kids share some BEHAVIORAL overlap with autism--but the most notable and obvious exception, they understand (frequently to extreme nicety) social cues and interactions, which is ABSOLUTELY necessary to pull what she did on Badger in Shindig. That for me was the final proof against autism.

All her hallmarks (incredibly early reading--"correcting Simon's spelling at three", extreme physical coordination, love of everything she did, extreme curiosity and empathy--the main reason Dr. Mathias was so interested) are of very high IQ without the autistic diagnosis.

There is deleted dialogue for Simon in "Safe" about Academy kids coming back aphasic--in other words, the word-processing machinery in your brain goes screwy in various ways--so I think it's just extreme trauma(PTSD)and misfiring neurons combined with an incredibly creative and intelligent teenager.

Although yes, I do think Earth-that-was would drive her mad--given that 500+ years from now, it was hard to find a school 'at her level'. But, better than being experimented on, hmmm? I do wonder how she enjoys flying...probably immensely, given her (and Simon's, haha)response to the stars in Bushwacked.

__

Going for a ride.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, January 12, 2010 8:56 PM

Whoops, nevermind, this thread seems old and my comments have already been covered.

CAZARIL

Tuesday, January 12, 2010 10:05 PM

"Cooper for a kiss": I always took this to be a Whedon version of "Penny for a thought"... River wakes from the meds, is smiling, and almost teasingly says this.. Then her face changes. This gives the distinct impression that she did what most of us wish we could when we say it, she read him (and I'm sure if we could do the same, we wouldn't get the answer we wanted either).

And while Zeek commented (4 years ago), that he didn't think Whedon would reuse something, I have always seen a lot of concept/material being reused from Firefly in Serenity. (Even though I don't think this was one of them).

"Stupid SOB, dress me up like a gorram doll".. I always looked at this as a commentary on her brother's taste in clothes. Which I assume he bought for her after he broke her out.

"They took away Christmas"... For the longest time, I saw this as all the good memories they took from River via the lobotomy, leaving only bad ones (Coal) and/or those of other people. But I really like Bowie's interpretation better.

I want to say that it was mentioned somewhere here (can't find it now), that Jayne realized she was reading him.. But don't think that was the case. I think he felt guilty, and was definitely uncomfortable with what he had done... He was on edge from the point he returned from the vid/wave/call. Even something as simple as "Your toes are in the sand" (someone want to explain the meaning of that one), makes Jayne very upset.

"I know the secret that burned up River Tam's brain"... It's a misconception on Mal's part. If you notice, River normalized somewhat after the secret comes out (quietly sitting on the edge of the table when it's decided they are goin'na misbehave). So like a malignant cancer, I think Mal thought the secret is what made her crazy. Once out, she was head to recovery (and the fact that he might let her help fly the ship would support that... You going to let a crazy person at the wheel!?...)... An if it is not a misconception, then it is the way it was meant to be. That the secret made her crazy... Maybe all the drugs and surgery just either; A) opened her mind up enough to gain access to the secrets, B) effected her reaction to them, or C) Both.

"Post hole digger...". I always just took the smile on her face, as she was happy with herself because she had managed to put the object with it's use (the post she was tied to). And never gave it much though beyond that.

"Up the down slide".. Never gave it much thought, was just River jabber. Although any meaning discussed here works for me.

Caz

CAVALIER

Thursday, January 14, 2010 10:22 PM

Stalin famously said "One death is a tragedy: A million deaths are a statistic."

Because you cannot really feel anything for the anonymous victims.

But it might be different for River, after her surgery. Perhaps for her, a million deaths are a million tragedies, and she feels every single one.

So learning about Miranda would not be good for her.