MR. CHENEY DID NOT LIE!

POSTED BY: Ruxton
UPDATED: Friday, February 24, 2006 03:03
VIEWED: 9437
PAGE 1 of 1

RUXTON

Sunday, February 19, 2006 11:05 PM

As some of you know, I test guns for a living and have done so for a great many years. I took exception to the claims made online recently (and discussed at length in various strings here on FFF.net) by a pack of so-called experts (Alex Jones/Infowars), who said Cheney lied. In fact, the testers lied.

There are currently many rumors and claims by "experts" circulating on the Internet that say Mr. Cheney lied about the range at which he shot Mr. Whittington. I do not particularly like Mr. Cheney, but have determined he was telling the truth:

MY OWN TESTS:
I just now, 3:45 PM, 2/19/06, performed the following tests. I used thin plastic gallon jugs full of water. On my range, at a measured 30 yards, I shot one jug with #7-1/2 shot, and the jug nearly exploded. Many shot pellets (about 50) remained inside the jug. Many more had gone through a full six inches of cold water and penetrated the far side of the jug.

Not content, I filled another plastic water jug with water at about 100 degrees, the approximate temperature of a man. I then covered the jug with three layers of cotton clothing. This time I used a precisely measured charge of 3/4-ounces of #7-1/2 shot, and hit this second jug from a measured 30 yards (not feet!). The jug was again fully penetrated several times, the pellets having traversed three layers of cotton clothing, 0.015" of plastic, six inches of water, and another 0.015" of plastic.

Thirty-seven (37) pellets remained inside of the jug, and the far side of the jug -- six inches of through-water penetration -- was very badly damaged from the shot where it didn't penetrate the last layer of plastic. In case readers don't know, water penetration is a VERY tough test of terminal ballistics, and far better than the cardboard" or rubber dummies or dead chickens (frozen?) used in the so-called experts' test.

The bottom line here is there is absolutely no reason to doubt what Mr. Cheney said. He shot Mr. Whittington at about 30 yards. There is neither controversy nor coverup here. Ballistics don't lie.
--------------------
As my doctor/hunter friend (who was entirely correct in his assessment of the potential damage that could be done by #7-1/2 pellets at 30 yards, and which I doubted until today) put it, if Whittington had caught the full charge, or had been much closer to Cheney, he'd be dead. As it is, he's lucky to be alive.

BITTERBIERCE

Sunday, February 19, 2006 11:08 PM

Immediately file under "Politics- Jesus, Who Cares?"

RUXTON

Sunday, February 19, 2006 11:17 PM

BitterBierce:
A whole heluva lot of people who don't like LIES from government, or from fools online.

CHRISISALL

Sunday, February 19, 2006 11:23 PM

Thanks, Ruxton.
I like putting to rest a conspiracy theory just as much as exposing one.
In the end, all we want are answers, right?

But his utimate aim of world domination still bothers me Chrisisall

RUXTON

Sunday, February 19, 2006 11:27 PM

Hey, Chris, thanks for the justification. FWIW, his plans for world domination also bother me.

Immensely!

BITTERBIERCE

Sunday, February 19, 2006 11:42 PM

Or maybe some of us write about politics for a living like we're real adults with actual intellects and don't care to see painfully specious and hamhanded amateurish "yee-ha for our side" net tripe in a place that should be above it. I mean really, who gives a flying frig what anyone on a Firefly forum thinks about Bushitler or Michael Moron?

Here is the net rule: you're never going to say anything original about politics. You're never going to have a thought all your own, you're just going to regurgitate crap from your own side. You'll never enlighten anyone, or even inform them. Ever.

CHRISISALL

Sunday, February 19, 2006 11:43 PM

Ooops! I just realized; this is on the General Discussions board- we're gonna catch flack for gettin' all political and such...

Many prefer the Alliance to remain just a ficticious thing...

Bad Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Sunday, February 19, 2006 11:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BitterBierce:
You'll never enlighten anyone, or even inform them. Ever.

Untrue, my fellow Browncoat!
I have been enlightened on many occasions on the RWED; I have become much more moderate and conservative (the good way) because of them, I dare say.

Credit where it's due Chrisisall

BITTERBIERCE

Sunday, February 19, 2006 11:50 PM

I think that's the funniest thing I've ever heard.

CHRISISALL

Sunday, February 19, 2006 11:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BitterBierce:
I think that's the funniest thing I've ever heard.

What do you mean, "funny"?
Funny like a clown? You think I'm funny??!!

*stops his Joe Pesci impression*

Really though, why funny? That I could learn something new and incorporate it into my ideas and perceptions from a bunch of silly threads?

Or is it the conservative (the good way) that's makin' you laugh?

Call it my need to know Chrisisall

CITIZEN

Monday, February 20, 2006 12:00 AM

I like the bit where BitterBierce said Ruxton was a Bush administration supporter, that was the funniest bit.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

RUXTON

Monday, February 20, 2006 12:09 AM

Hey, Citizen,, How ya doin? Yep, I'm still laughing about what you said, amigo.

No matter how hard we try, some folks, even self-styled writers, have exactly no ability to read, eh?

Sorry to all if I posted this in the wrong place. Webmasters please feel free to move this, if necessary or possible, to the right place.

LISSA

Monday, February 20, 2006 12:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BitterBierce:

Here is the net rule: you're never going to say anything original about politics. You're never going to have a thought all your own, you're just going to regurgitate crap from your own side. You'll never enlighten anyone, or even inform them. Ever.

um...he did his own test.

~lissa, retired spwhore

CHRISISALL

Monday, February 20, 2006 12:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:
Yep, I'm still laughing about what you said, amigo.

You think Citizen's funny? What, like a clown??!!

Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Monday, February 20, 2006 12:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by lissa:
um...he did his own test.

OMG, lissa, I can't breath, LOL!!!!!

Chrisisall

BITTERBIERCE

Monday, February 20, 2006 12:23 AM

"I like the bit where BitterBierce said Ruxton was a Bush administration supporter, that was the funniest bit."

Did reading comprehension skills go down while I was away? If you could read my email and understand all them confusin' "words", you'd notice I made no mention at all of my politics or the politics of the letter or anyone elses. You don't have a clue about any opinion I have about politics, and I'm keeping it that way. I kept from mentioning any one person's politics or what they said because that's my point. Make sure you keep the politics in the little politics ghetto below and out of the general converaation, k? Firefly people up here, blowhards below. Simple enough for you, cupcake?

CITIZEN

Monday, February 20, 2006 12:25 AM

Not bad Ruxton, you?

Where you been at?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

CHRISISALL

Monday, February 20, 2006 12:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BitterBierce:
Make sure you keep the politics in the little politics ghetto below and out of the general converaation, k?

Strange to mention reading comprehension while spelling conversation 'converaation'...
*ducks and covers*

Just funnin' Chrisisall

CITIZEN

Monday, February 20, 2006 12:33 AM

BB:
They're posts, not e-mail. E-mail is, in point of fact, an entirely different thing.

Never said nothing about your politics though now did I .

Maybe you should check your own reading comprehension level, no?

But erm, considering what Ruxton posted supported Cheney, and he's a member of the Bush administration, and you said that Ruxton was quoting "his sides" rhetoric, then, really, you were making a statement as too Ruxtons political leanings, nes pas?

Yep, it was posted in the wrong place, yet your previous posts didn't alluded too that, did they. Merely a "this shouldn't be posted here” would have sufficed, no?

Simple enough for ya sweetpea?

Also, it's hamfisted CitizenIsAmused

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

BITTERBIERCE

Monday, February 20, 2006 1:11 AM

"But erm, considering what Ruxton posted supported Cheney, and he's a member of the Bush administration, and you said that Ruxton was quoting "his sides" rhetoric, then, really, you were making a statement as too Ruxtons political leanings, nes pas?"

No and that's a stupid thing to say. In logic it's called a "non-sequitur", which in latin means "it does not follow". It doesn't follow that because I want politics out of here that I care that it's HIS politics. You MADE IT UP IN YOUR MIND AND THEN ASCRIBED IT TO ME. I didn't even bother reading his post because it's all MEGO. I neither made a post regarding ruxie or ruxo or whatever his name is, and I don't care.

One of the most annoying trends in the net is that 98% of posters think the only interesting political question one can ask is "what side are you on?". Ohhhh people think that's so clever. And people just like you read fucking tea leaves to discern just what MY INCREDIBLE BIAS IS!!!! I said nothing about Ruxton or even implying he was Republican and the reason you're not quoting me to prove I did is because you can't. You made it up out of thin air.

Now if you'll forgive me, I'm bowing out because, to quote mal, "sermons make me sleepy".

CHRISISALL

Monday, February 20, 2006 1:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Also, it's hamfisted CitizenIsAmused

Ahhh, Citizen, always ready to take the "I'm-so-serious" right off at the knees.

You're a force to reckoned with....

Chrisisall

CARTOON

Monday, February 20, 2006 1:23 AM

Thanks for the interesting post on your test, Ruxton -- at least for the sakes of those of us who don't already know everything there is to know about everything, as some posters obviously seem to (grammatically edited as requested).

CHRISISALL

Monday, February 20, 2006 1:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BitterBierce:

One of the most annoying trends in the net is that 98% of posters think the only interesting political question one can ask is "what side are you on?". Ohhhh people think that's so clever.

Actually it's 72%.

And BB, language! There's kids on these here boards!
Tsk, tsk.

It needed one more nail Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Monday, February 20, 2006 1:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
as some posters obviously seem to do.

Grammatically, it would work better to have 'to' be the last word in you sentance.

Knows everything Chrisisall

*havin' entirely TOO much fun today*

RUXTON

Monday, February 20, 2006 1:39 AM

Citizen, you said:
Not bad Ruxton, you?
Where you been at?

Been busy with work. Buried one of my animal friends (ferret) last October and have not yet recovered. Been lurking, with occasional comments here and there. Currently freezing out here. Fifteen below t'other night. Makes it tough to get out and test stuff, but I just had it up to here with all the B/S about this shooting-distance issue, so did some serious testing today. Hence my apparently misplaced post.

Yourself?

BitterBierce: Nothing you posted, from your first insult to the last, made the slightest bit of sense. If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know this claim that Cheney lied was a bitter controversy this last week. I proved beyond any doubt that the folks at Infowars screwed up big time, and I did it because their screwups were being taken as GOSPEL all over the internet, including on this forum. As I said, I don't like liars. Neither do I like those who make lots of noise but have NOTHING TO SAY.

So, goodbye, BB, and GOOD RIDDANCE!

BITTERBIERCE

Monday, February 20, 2006 1:42 AM

Ok thanks. Bye bye now *waves*.

RUXTON

Monday, February 20, 2006 1:43 AM

Hey, 'Toon,
Thank you for the kind words. My pleasure.

Oh, FWIW, Chrisisall was wrong. Your sentence should end in "do do."

Or perhaps "doo doo."

I think....

CARTOON

Monday, February 20, 2006 2:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:
Or perhaps "doo doo."

No doubt that certain folks would say that all of my posts entirely consist of "doo doo".

You're welcomed.

P.S. I corrected the post, but it still isn't correct, as English sentences are not supposed to end with prepositions. However, I'm too stupid and lazy to figure a way to make the statement work gramatically.

RUXTON

Monday, February 20, 2006 2:33 AM

Cartoon, easy:

...as some posters apparently do.

Also, I think you could have left it entirely alone.

At any rate, I for one appreciate your participation.

CHRISISALL

Monday, February 20, 2006 2:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

P.S. I corrected the post, but it still isn't correct, as English sentences are not supposed to end with prepositions.

All right, so I DON'T know everything...
Make it "...as do some of those posting here."

We learn by doing.

Imperfect, but highly amused Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Monday, February 20, 2006 2:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:

...as some posters apparently do.

That makes it sound as if we're all just large pictures on the wall...

Bein' sick is fun Chrisisall

KHYRON

Monday, February 20, 2006 2:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
as some posters obviously seem to do.

Grammatically, it would work better to have 'to' be the last word in you sentance.

And your post would work better if you wrote 'sentence' instead of 'sentance'

.

"Also havin' a good ol' time" KhyronIsAll

CHRISISALL

Monday, February 20, 2006 3:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:

And your post would work better if you wrote 'sentence' instead of 'sentance' .

DAMN!
I hate bein' a fallable being!
No! I deny it! I SPELLED IT RIGHT- THE COMPUTER TRANSMITTED IT WRONG!!!!!
My son distracted me...oh, he's in bed...

Oh! Who can I blame...????

I did it, and I'll do it again Chrisisall

RIVER6213

Monday, February 20, 2006 3:14 AM

***River6213 quickly covers her mouth before she can say something mean***

KHYRON

Monday, February 20, 2006 3:24 AM

I just realised something: this is what RWED would be like if we didn't have AURaptor, Hero, dreamtrove and the pirates (i.e. the people who tend to put their foot in it in one way or the other)... we'd be reduced to fixing each other's grammar and spelling.

RUXTON

Monday, February 20, 2006 3:37 AM

Khyron,

That's a most interesting point.

We "big pictures on the wall" would have little to do, other than wait and hope for the sequel, or the next TV assault by Master Whedon.

Personally, I'd like that just fine.

CARTOON

Monday, February 20, 2006 4:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:
At any rate, I for one appreciate your participation.

You're welcomed.

Apparently, I played a successful decoy, and misdirected the criticism toward grammatical analysis, and away from the initial subject of the post.

Just doing my job.

I'll expect a check in the mail for services rendered.

LISSA

Monday, February 20, 2006 4:46 AM

i sort of love where this thread has gone:) so much more pleasant!

~typesallinlowercase lissa

RUXTON

Monday, February 20, 2006 5:17 AM

Mr. 'Toon, your check is in the mail.

RIGHTEOUS9

Monday, February 20, 2006 8:07 AM

Its discouraging to see somebody so angry about others having a conversation, and its outright absurd to think that you can take the politics out of people and their discussions. Our politics go hand in hand with how we view our world...how we interpret it. They don't exist in a vacuum, and if you think that Serenity and Firefly themselves are A-political, then you've missed so much of the experience somehow, and need to watch them again.

To suggest that nobody in this chat room will ever say anything new or original, serves only to excuse yourself from ever having to learn anything from what is said.

But Hey, whatever makes you feel superior.

SINGATE

Monday, February 20, 2006 8:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
***River6213 quickly covers her mouth before she can say something mean***

Quit being a tease and unload with both barrels. Would be kinda fitting considering how this thread started.

_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

BITTERBIERCE

Monday, February 20, 2006 8:38 AM

Spare me the lectures, preacher. I write about politics for a living, and I've taught prepratory rhetoric and debate. I believe in arguing more than you do. I also believe it has a place because it's by its nature contentious and I play hard. That's why I don't want it here. I like you folks, and you WILL get offended. Not me, I am nearly impossible to insult. It's you people. Get it?

CITIZEN

Monday, February 20, 2006 8:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BitterBierce:
"But erm, considering what Ruxton posted supported Cheney, and he's a member of the Bush administration, and you said that Ruxton was quoting "his sides" rhetoric, then, really, you were making a statement as too Ruxtons political leanings, nes pas?"

No and that's a stupid thing to say. In logic it's called a "non-sequitur", which in latin means "it does not follow". It doesn't follow that because I want politics out of here that I care that it's HIS politics. You MADE IT UP IN YOUR MIND AND THEN ASCRIBED IT TO ME. I didn't even bother reading his post because it's all MEGO. I neither made a post regarding ruxie or ruxo or whatever his name is, and I don't care.

One of the most annoying trends in the net is that 98% of posters think the only interesting political question one can ask is "what side are you on?". Ohhhh people think that's so clever. And people just like you read fucking tea leaves to discern just what MY INCREDIBLE BIAS IS!!!! I said nothing about Ruxton or even implying he was Republican and the reason you're not quoting me to prove I did is because you can't. You made it up out of thin air.

Now if you'll forgive me, I'm bowing out because, to quote mal, "sermons make me sleepy".

Ahh, so I can tell nothing about you from your posts, but you can tell everything there is too know about me from one of mine. Good too know; keep reading them magic crystal balls kid.

It's not really a stupid thing to say though, follows a logical course that's quite clear. You told Ruxton that he's spouting "his sides Rhetoric", your words. He was voicing an opinion that supported what was being said by the Bush Admin; therefore the logical conclusion is that you were asserting Ruxton is a Bush supporter. That or you were being a twat and trying to start a fight, I chose to give you the benefit of the doubt, won't happen again, sorry.

You know I still haven't even alluded to your own political biases though, have I. So to use your own bizarre attack: Quote me, punk, make my day. Like I said, never said anything about your bias that would be all your own little fantasy, good luck with that hon.

So, is this the level of discourse you foster in your "professional" writing when your talking about politics in an "adult" manner, huh? Can't say I've ever read anything like that, but I tend to steer clear of the tabloid media, ya know...

That and I don’t have access to your schools newsletter.

Also, when did anyone say "what side are you on"? Erm, I think you need your eyesight checked, 'cause ya know, you’re not reading THIS thread...

Literate, CitizenIsNot a hypocrite, know what I'm sayin'

?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

BITTERBIERCE

Monday, February 20, 2006 12:28 PM

"Ahh, so I can tell nothing about you from your posts"

There, just eleven words and you've already butchered reason and logic beyond all comprehension. You said I CLAIMED HE WAS A REPUBLICAN. You said, and I quote, "I like the bit where BitterBierce said Ruxton was a Bush administration supporter", which clearly means you've somehow managed to learn how to write english, but not read it.

"...but you can tell everything there is too know about me from one of mine"

Hardly anything, except that you're young and a little slow on the uptake. Hey, maybe you're a great philanthropist, who knows. I don't really know if you're stupid, just that you say very stupid things with some regularity and you're more excitable than a virgin at the Playboy mansion.

"It's not really a stupid thing to say though"

Actually, it is. You made a claim that no one would make if they could read. It's right above.
There's nothing to it. Incredibly simple. When other people are in a hole, they stop digging. Not you!

"....follows a logical course that's quite clear. You told Ruxton that he's spouting "his sides Rhetoric""

Fucking...so?

"He was voicing an opinion that supported what was being said by the Bush Admin; therefore the logical conclusion is that you were asserting Ruxton is a Bush supporter"

Listen son, in an argument people take sides. That's in an argument. It does not naturally imply a party. Basic reading comprehension. And I DID go back and read it now- it's bloviating shit on a boring topic.

"That or you were being a twat and trying to start a fight"

Actually he was, picking a political fight, and I was trying to avoid it. I didn't make a SINGLE JUDGEMENT about the content of his politics. I still don't. Just please, elsewhere. Keep it in that politics ghetto.

"I chose to give you the benefit of the doubt, won't happen again, sorry."

Couldn't give a flying shit what you do. I'm a big boy, words never hurt me.

"You know I still haven't even alluded to your own political biases though, have I"

So what?

"So to use your own bizarre attack: Quote me, punk, make my day"

Uhm, ok. "More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!" I don't know if it's your quote or anything, but it's half cute. There, I quoted you.

"Like I said, never said anything about your bias that would be all your own little fantasy, good luck with that hon."

You missed the point of that. I wasn't referring to you, it was a general bitch. I tend to wander off people when they bore me. I suppose that I could understand, but the rest was purely dim.

"So, is this the level of discourse you foster in your "professional" writing when your blah blah"

Yeah yeah, standard boilerplate, I get it- "I rock and BB stinks, woo!". Say, I hear that Firefly show is good. You like?

CITIZEN

Monday, February 20, 2006 1:39 PM

In my experience the one who first starts throwing personal insults about has already lost...

Quote:
Every post by BitterBierce on this thread:
Blah blah blah you're an illiterate idiot blah blah blah I'm not trying to start a fight blah blah blah you're an idiot blah blah blah can't read blah blah blah

Nope, avoiding a fight is keeping away from it, simple see

Quote:
Originally posted by BitterBierce:
Hardly anything, except that you're young and a little slow on the uptake.

Nope, you know I'm young from the fact that I posted my age in that other thread, I bet you thought stating that was going to rattle me, awww, bless that’s sweet. As for slow on the uptake, well I've worked out how to use the post formatting commands

...

Quote:
You missed the point of that. I wasn't referring to you, it was a general bitch. I tend to wander off people when they bore me. I suppose that I could understand, but the rest was purely dim.

Uhuh, sure, sure, I see that now, I still don't understand why you keep replying to me, none of my posts were directed at you at all, even when I mentioned your name, I meant this other BitterBierce, there’s a lot of you about...

Boring like a what? Boring like a self-styled political writer?

Quote:
Actually he was, picking a political fight, and I was trying to avoid it. I didn't make a SINGLE JUDGEMENT about the content of his politics. I still don't. Just please, elsewhere. Keep it in that politics ghetto.

The two worst groups on the net:
People who unnecessarily correct other peoples Grammar/spelling (when it's not just a gentle joke) and
People who start attacking other people for posting in the wrong place.

All you needed was "you posted this in the wrong place" but no, not you huh. You've got to flex your “big” muscles and spit the dummy.

You're elevated, only slightly, because you didn't say:
"U STEWPID N00B, DIS SHUD B IN RWED, GO B4 I GET U WIT MY L33T H4x0R SKILZ"
Which minus the text speak is about the mental level of all your posts in this thread

.

You don't want a fight? Then prove it by clawing your Trollotypal (Note I'm not actually calling you a troll, you can tell cause I didn't say troll, but thought you might need it spelled out) flatulent arse back under the rock it came from and leave thread movement up to the mods.

Who made you so bitter anyway? Was it a girl? It was wasn’t it, she stole your blanky didn’t she, oh well, come sit down and tell me all about it and you’ll feel better, I promise.

Quote:
Uhm, ok. "More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!" I don't know if it's your quote or anything, but it's half cute. There, I quoted you.

It’s a bastardisation of a Red Dwarf quote that goes:
“Ding, another great idea from the people who bought you beer milkshakes!”
Anyway, that was funny, well done you’re starting to get the feel for it now! We just need to remove the obvious (steroid induced?) rage from the rest of your posts, chuck in a few more humours statements and we’ll be getting somewhere

. It’s fine, you can practice on me if you like, let’s think and you obviously need some help in this area…

I know lets start off by ribbing me for my age, that’s always a killer!

Quote:
Say, I hear that Firefly show is good. You like?

Yeah, it's none too bad.

Still laughing, CitizenIsStill Amused

.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

CITIZEN

Monday, February 20, 2006 1:56 PM

Quote:
Originally postedby Ruxton:
Been busy with work. Buried one of my animal friends (ferret) last October and have not yet recovered. Been lurking, with occasional comments here and there. Currently freezing out here. Fifteen below t'other night. Makes it tough to get out and test stuff, but I just had it up to here with all the B/S about this shooting-distance issue, so did some serious testing today. Hence my apparently misplaced post.

Yourself?

Ahh, the usual, trying to spread some fact based truths and being attacked for my trouble *waves to Cartoon*. Can't say it's that cold here, I think the lowest it got during the day was -2 or -4.

Losing the Ferret is harsh, Seryn another poster here lost one of hers a few weeks back, she sounded pretty cut up, that and apparrently his mate seems a bit confused as to where he's gone. Personally had no problems with animals recently, I only keep one Snake these days and he's far too busy getting fat on Rats to die just yet.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

JONUS

Monday, February 20, 2006 2:05 PM

Maybe he didn't lie and maybe he did. Politicians backstab each other and the public in the ass. Here's to all of them shooting each other during hunting trips and dying in fiery plane crashes.

Attack me, not my opinion.

CITIZEN

Monday, February 20, 2006 2:37 PM

You see BB, look what happens when you chill out and let the moderators do their job. Everything comes to those who wait, important life lesson there.

CitizenIsWise as the Buddah has forseen.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

BITTERBIERCE

Monday, February 20, 2006 2:47 PM

As an intelligent woman once said, men don't become interesting till they're 30. You're definately proof of that.

FLETCH2

Monday, February 20, 2006 2:53 PM

Ruxton: seriously cool. If you don't think the facts are right test them yourself. Like it! Nicely done!

CITIZEN

Monday, February 20, 2006 2:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BitterBierce:
As an intelligent woman once said, men don't become interesting till they're 30. You're definately proof of that.

Some not even after that grandad

Glad too see you're taking my advice and going for the age thing though. Keep trying, you'll get there eventually, well maybe, well perhaps, well...

Ain't afraid of no post, CitizenIsPost Busters...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

CARTOON

Monday, February 20, 2006 3:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lissa:
i sort of love where this thread has gone:) so much more pleasant!

Didn't last long, though, did it?

Guess, it's time for me to play decoy again. Hmmm...let's see. Can goof I gramatically be to misdirect to me attention again??

Nah. That worked once. Won't work again.

Have to come up with something, though. Ruxton's checks are badly needed at the moment.

Hmm....let's see...

CITIZEN

Monday, February 20, 2006 3:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cartoon:
Guess, it's time for me to play decoy again. Hmmm...let's see. Can goof I gramatically be to misdirect to me attention again??

Believe it or not I'm happy to see the truth come out whatever that maybe.

Truthful CitizenIsAlways searching.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

RIVER6213

Monday, February 20, 2006 5:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by singate:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
***River6213 quickly covers her mouth before she can say something mean***

Quit being a tease and unload with both barrels. Would be kinda fitting considering how this thread started.

_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

Forget that! Last time I "unloaded" It turned out to be a 170 post miniseries, complete with high drama, not too great special effects, and an all star cast with lots of supporting actors, with a grand, seasons finale with Citizen, yelling at me from a very high hill. I don't want to go through that again.

And to stick with the thread's topic, I think Cheney shot that guy on purpose. I hate that fat, evil oxen of a man.

The word for today is: Impact

SERYN

Monday, February 20, 2006 6:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BitterBierce:
As an intelligent woman once said, men don't become interesting till they're 30. You're definately proof of that.

Nah, I think that statement could be made by any woman of average ineptitude.

(no slight on the woman by the way if it was an ex or a current bed warmer)

y'see, this is why I like this particular corner of the board. (apart from all that grammar correctin' - that scared me)

Any time I feel like i'm being overly insulting and particularly feisty (by the way River, glad to se your still about, I look forward to your next alcohol inspired thread

) I can just come on over and witness some of the doozeys being flung around in here.

Damn you guys are good!

Anyhoo, don't mind me, i'm just here doing my (CitizenStalking) job.

ah, yes, burble burble.

SIGNYM

Monday, February 20, 2006 6:51 PM

Skipping past all the "he said, she said" posts immediately after the first post... Thanks for doing the test. I've heard conflicting things back and forth, had pretty much sttled on 30 yards as the most probable scenario but this pretty much nailed it for me.

But I do think Cheney DID lie- about alcohol. The deep deep silence about Whittington's BAC and Cheney's activities after the shooting indicate that he's had much more alcohol than he admitted. (Sure, he had a beer with lucnh- but what did he have before and after lunch?) Since I'll never had proof either way I'll just have to hang on to my deep-seated suspicions about the guy in a display of sheer orneriness.

PS- Who says we never learn from each other?

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

CITIZEN

Monday, February 20, 2006 6:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Forget that! Last time I "unloaded" It turned out to be a 170 post miniseries, complete with high drama, not too great special effects, and an all star cast with lots of supporting actors, with a grand, seasons finale with Citizen, yelling at me from a very high hill. I don't want to go through that again.

Hey now, it wasn't so bad...

Things happened, also words were said...
CitizenIsTrying to put the crockery back together again.

Seryn, I see you behind that post...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

LISSA

Monday, February 20, 2006 8:08 PM

hey citizen, how old are you? i think i've heard before but i forgot.

anyone who thinks men can't be interesting until after 30 is probably surrounded by the type of guy i work with at dunkin donuts (sorry guys, and kurtis you are an exception) rather than the type of guys i go to college at bu with. now, many of them are pretty typically inane, but i have met some truly intelligent and, yes, interesting guys here. not that any of them know how to deal with girls...

~lissa, retired spwhore

RUXTON

Monday, February 20, 2006 9:46 PM

Citizen, Sometimes I wish I had your tolerance and sense of humour. Well done, sir.
Snakes is nice. Have many nice wild ones outside; and a few deadly ones that are not so nice.

RUXTON

Monday, February 20, 2006 9:47 PM

Fletch2, and SignyM, Waugh! Thank 'ee kindly. SignyM, more below, shortly, on your thoughts.

RUXTON

Monday, February 20, 2006 9:48 PM

Cartoon, HONEST! I sent ya one. Nice and flexible, too. Pull it and watch it stretch into even more money.

RUXTON

Monday, February 20, 2006 9:49 PM

HAKEN, or whoever: Great thanks to the moderators for moving this thread to its proper location.

RUXTON

Monday, February 20, 2006 10:04 PM

SignyM,

I have mixed feelings about the delay in C's reporting/fessing up. First, Whittington could well and easily have died. In that case, C would have been up for something like Negligent Manslaughter, and anything he may have said before the guy died could most likely have been used either to help convict him, or to support a likely lawsuit by the surviving family. Therefore, I suspect C was waiting to see just how bad it was going to turn out before he committed himself. And when he did, to his credit he took FULL blame, as he ought to have.

The alcohol question, including his admission to one beer (how big?) (heart medication?) will always remain a mystery. Was he plastered? Mebbe. Did he break one of the four fundamental gun-safety laws? Absolutely. In any case, this thread was by no means intended to give C or the administration a pass on any of its heinous and ongoing crimes. It was strictly to quiet a bunch of raving dunces who were apparently being taken as "experts" around the Internet. I simply verified that Cheney did not lie about the approximate distance of the errant shot.

CITIZEN

Monday, February 20, 2006 11:24 PM

Lissa:
I'm 24.

Ruxton:
Thanks, sometimes I wish I had my Humour and Tolerance...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

PIRATENEWS

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 2:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Retarded Moron Traitor Terrorist (aka Ruxton):
As some of you know, I test guns for a living and have done so for a great many years. I took exception to the claims made online recently (and discussed at length in various strings here on FFF.net) by a pack of so-called experts (Alex Jones/Infowars), who said Cheney lied. In fact, the testers lied.

There are currently many rumors and claims by "experts" circulating on the Internet that say Mr. Cheney lied about the range at which he shot Mr. Whittington. I do not particularly like Mr. Cheney, but have determined he was telling the truth:

MY OWN TESTS:
I just now, 3:45 PM, 2/19/06, performed the following tests. I used thin plastic gallon jugs full of water. On my range, at a measured 30 yards, I shot one jug with #7-1/2 shot, and the jug nearly exploded. Many shot pellets (about 50) remained inside the jug. Many more had gone through a full six inches of cold water and penetrated the far side of the jug.

Not content, I filled another plastic water jug with water at about 100 degrees, the approximate temperature of a man. I then covered the jug with three layers of cotton clothing. This time I used a precisely measured charge of 3/4-ounces of #7-1/2 shot, and hit this second jug from a measured 30 yards (not feet!). The jug was again fully penetrated several times, the pellets having traversed three layers of cotton clothing, 0.015" of plastic, six inches of water, and another 0.015" of plastic.

Thirty-seven (37) pellets remained inside of the jug, and the far side of the jug -- six inches of through-water penetration -- was very badly damaged from the shot where it didn't penetrate the last layer of plastic. In case readers don't know, water penetration is a VERY tough test of terminal ballistics, and far better than the cardboard" or rubber dummies or dead chickens (frozen?) used in the so-called experts' test.

The bottom line here is there is absolutely no reason to doubt what Mr. Cheney said. He shot Mr. Whittington at about 30 yards. There is neither controversy nor coverup here. Ballistics don't lie.

As my doctor/hunter friend (who was entirely correct in his assessment of the potential damage that could be done by #7-1/2 pellets at 30 yards, and which I doubted until today) put it, if Whittington had caught the full charge, or had been much closer to Cheney, he'd be dead. As it is, he's lucky to be alive.

Hey Moron - do you have any idea what gauge shotgun you were allegedly shooting? Do you know what gauge is? Do you know the difference between a 410, 28 and 12 gauge? Here's a tip - put the gun to your head and pull the trigger, then get a helper to measure the size of the hole. Then we will know what size shotgun you used in your "professional ballistics test".

BTW, medical doctors reported on TV that Whittington was hit by about 200 pellets, which means he was closer that 90 feet. And they don't know how many bounced off his glasses, plastic vest and clothing.

CHENEYS' GOT A GUN

VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Harry Whittington Shooting Ballistics Tested, Cheney shot at Whittington from 15-20 feet, not 90 as claimed (one day prior to video of Whittington's peppered head)
www.infowars.com/articles/us/cheney_shooting_scientific_proof.htm
Mirror Download:
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/02/8579.php
http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/cheney-ballistics_test.wmv

FIRST VIDEO OF WHITTINGTON AFTER GETTING SHOT IN HEAD BY CHENEY, SIX DAYS AFTER HOLE IN HEAD AND HEART ATTACK. BROWNNOSING BUTTKISSER IS NOT A HAPPY CAMPER! VIDEO DOWNLOAD:
www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/17/cheney/index.html

www.CrooksAndLiars.com only keeps videos for a week or 2. Updated video links for mirror downloads:

VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Drunk Dick shoots Republicon in head 2-time DUI convict Cheney dodges deputies for 12 hours. Psycho serial killers play The Most Dangerous Game.
video: windows media at 3.7 MB
http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/dick_cheney_shoots_lawyer.wmv
ht

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 2:49 AM

Quote:
Thanks, Ruxton.
I like putting to rest a conspiracy theory just as much as exposing one.
In the end, all we want are answers, right?

But his utimate aim of world domination still bothers me Chrisisall

As usual, my post is redundant. Chris said it, including the domination thing. But Mr. Jones is not exactly a credible source, and I thought mistaking 30y for 18f was a bit much. I can see cheney saying yards and meaning feet, or mistaking 90ft for 60ft, people are bad judges of distance. Anyway, thanks for the correction.

I think the estimate of shots hitting Whittington is now 200, so that would bode for a slightly closer than 30 yards, but again, very hard thing to judge. Calling 15 feet 30 yards would have been a lie.

One slight remaining snag. The statistical chances of hitting Mr. Whittington at random head towards astronomical as you move Cheney farther away. At 90y I would think it was statistically impossble unless Cheney was aiming for Harry. I guess there's more to think about.

I think that this is one of those areas we were talking about where it isn't politics to talk about the ballistics of the accident.

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 3:07 AM

Quote:
Grammatically, it would work better to have 'to' be the last word in you sentance.

Chris, I think this is the fourth time, but "sentence" ... still spelled with an "e"

Hey, I caught that dissing of the republicans. I represent that remark. I think that actually, the assholes are evenly split. I don't think I'm one of them. But then, no one does think of themselves as one of the assholes.

Citizen,

24. That's what I would have guessed. I think now with Jenny here you are no longer the youngest.

Pirate,

You're a good guy. Try being less hostile. Chances are that Ruxton is not lying, he's got no reason to lie, and nothing to gain by it. He knows we aren't going to go and vote Cheney into office in '08, even if he ran, which he's not going to.

PIRATENEWS

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 4:23 AM

Our crooked copsters here in Knoxville Tennessee are no better than in Texas. They've fumbled the ball so many times, when they could have arrested Bush & Cheney when they fly into Knoxville International Cocaine Airport. But then, our former mayor was Bush Jr's Skull & Bones coffinmate and fellow cheerleader at all-male Yale (now he's ambassador to Poland), and the owners of our Scripps Howard media mafia cartel are members of Bohemian Grove.

For ANYBODY to support Cheney in ANYTHING he does is criminal, insane, and suicidal. Ruxton's "pro ballistics test" is a joke. Alex Jone's at least bought the exact model and choke of shotgun, and used same shells as Cheney. Then he presented his results to the public, which is more than the "news" media did. Jone's test ain't perfect. He needs hi-res photos of the target hits, and he needs to do the test at 5-yard increments, with 5-foot by 5-foot targets that include human outlines, in order to count the full spread of pellets. Then simply post a table with the number of hits on each target and within each body's outline, for each barrel (it had 2 different choke sizes, and we don't know which one Cheney fired - or both barrels). Without crime scene photos of Whittington with his shirt off, before doctors cleaned him up, and without the medical reports of exact number of wounds and pellets recovered, we're all reduced to making educated guestimates.

At any rate, to not arrest Cheney for this crime, is to let the lead hijacker of 9/11 escape. It's like dropping the winning touchdown pass in the Superbowl. DOH!

Here's video from the 9/11 Commission of Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta (from Lockheed Martin) testifying as eyewitness to Cheney ordering the military to stand down and allow the jet (robotic Boeing A3 Skywarrior) to hit the Pentagon:
www.911truthmovement.org/archives/2005/07/post.php

"We applied the cortico-electrodes but were unable to get a neurological response."
-Jayne

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO:
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/01/8310.php
(Mal demonstrates correct way to make a head shot)

http://cagle.com/news/CheneyShoots/

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 5:20 AM

The real problem with Jones' test is that the area and concentration of impact is unknown. Since the circle is not on center, but on the edge of whittington, and it is not a perfect circle, it would be hard not to say impossible to judge the actual area of impact. It could have been a nine foot circle with whittington in. It could easily have been an 18 inch to 36 inch circle with whittington in it.

Now I'm not a hunter, so someone else has to fill in here, but is the force of Cheney's weapon known? Can he alter that force with the same gun by altering quanitity or quality of the explosive? There just so much here that would need investigation.

My gut temptation is to side with Ruxton. Logically, if Cheney is standing 15-18 feet from Whittington, and shoots, and the entire shot hits Harry Whittington squarely in the chest and head, it would probably have killed him. A fair amount of shot probably went off to the side.

I think it's pretty clear that Cheney tried to keep a lid on the story, and that that effort may have hurt Mr. Whittington's recovery or increased his scarring and heart risk, and that the Armstrong woman is just plain lying. But, and I say this with not only contempt for the policies of the Vice President, but the feeling that he is really truly an ass, and even as he does it trying to sound magnanimous as he takes responsibility for his actions, Cheney is probably pretty much telling the truth.

People have an aversion to lying. Cheney says "One beer" he probably had more to drink, but it's probably technically true, only one beer was taken by Cheney and drunk start to finish. Even when they are lying to make case for public policy, they seldom lie outright. It's just not human nature to do so. Most people bend the truth, omit things which don't support their case, but don't actually outright lie most of the time.

RUXTON

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 8:12 AM

Thanks to "Pirate" for posting that shot of Whittington. I knew my support of him on another thread would come in handy. Whittington's face shows VERY SIMILAR shot spread to what I got on my water jugs, shot at 30 yards. The patterns on his face PRECISELY reflect the shot spread I got on my water jugs. If I could post a picture I'd do so, but I prefer to wait and do so in the legitimate gun press, which will reach quite a few hundred thousand readers, rather than just a few hundred here. (I've already told Mike Rivero and Jeff Rense about this, but neither has acted on it yet.) If Whittington had been half as close as Cheney (correctly) claimed, the pellet marks on his face would be four times as dense, an easily seen thing. He'd also be dead. The pellet that lodged in the wall of his heart would have gone right through. (It almost certainly didn't "migrate" there, per a lengthy discussion with a doctor. It most likely penetrated the chest wall and lodged in the half-inch-thick wall of the heart, and only the next day or so did it cause enough inflammation to give trouble, much as if you stabbed yourself in the thigh with an icepick. The trouble would start from inflammation the next day or two, not immediately.)

To clarify, for the curious and openminded:

Shot velocity doesn't change with gauge. A 28-gauge gun slings its 3/4-ounce "game load" of shot at essentially the same velocity (about 1200-1300 fps) as a game load out of a 20, or 16, or 12, or 10 gauge gun. To put it another way, it does not matter what the gauge of the gun used was, shot velocity will be essentially identical in all gauges. The amount of shot, 3/4 ounce in this case, and the degree of choke (which has never published for Cheney's gun) are what determine the pellet density on the target. The same amount of shot fired from a larger bore will often give superior PATTERNS, meaning more even distribution of shot throughout its spread. (English gunmakers knew this over a century ago.) But three-quarters of an ounce of shot, whether fired from a .410, 28-gauge, 12-gauge, or what have you, will have essentially the SAME VELOCITY at 30 yards, no matter the gauge gun in which it was fired. The only difference may be in the QUALITY of the patterns.

What many don't understand is that a full-choked 12-bore will have a total spread of that 3/4-ounce of shot essentially IDENTICAL with the total spread of 3/4-ounce of shot from a full-choked 28-gauge barrel. This is hard even for many gun owners to grasp, but it is the simple truth. As noted, the shot will probably be more evenly distributed from the 12-bore, but not necessarily. There is no difference in the total spread between the two, and THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER IN KILLING POWER BETWEEN THE TWO!!

This is another point of general ignorance seen across the Internet, and one which many, if not most, do not understand. When dolts don't understand these things, they say things like:

"Alex Jone's at least bought the exact model and choke of shotgun, and used same shells as Cheney."

This is clear indication of "Joe Shotgun" thinking he knows something about guns, when he doesn't know JACK SHIT. BTW, the CHOKES of Cheney's gun have NEVER been published, nor was the MAKE of Alex Jones' gun published, but we can be quite sure he didn't pop $6000-$8000 for a Perazzi o/u. So this rant by the Pirate is just more CRAPPO from someone who doesn't know anything about guns, but think that if they make lots of noise and waste lots of space, they just might impress someone.

Even if the velocity is increased at the muzzle from hotter loads, say to 1500 fps, the rapid falloff of velocity would find the pellets from the lower-velocity load not much slower than the hotrod at 30 yards. The big difference in shotguns is the amount of shot each can sling. Some 12-bore loads throw as much as 2 ounces of shot, not the 28-gauge's 3/4 ounce. But that's not what I did. I carefully weighed the shot to get 3/4 ounce. And as you now know, it doesn't matter what gauge gun I fired it from.

KHYRON

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 8:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Hey, I caught that dissing of the republicans. I represent that remark. I think that actually, the assholes are evenly split. I don't think I'm one of them. But then, no one does think of themselves as one of the assholes.

Lol, not sure if I missed a post or two, but were you talking about this?

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
I just realised something: this is what RWED would be like if we didn't have AURaptor, Hero, dreamtrove and the pirates (i.e. the people who tend to put their foot in it in one way or the other)... we'd be reduced to fixing each other's grammar and spelling.

There's no way I'd count the pirates as republican, and you're somewhere slightly right of middle, but not necessarily republican either, to my mind at least. And definitely not an asshole, by 'foot in it' I meant that you and the others sometimes go a bit too far with some of your statements, which gives other people a reason to debate. Without you guys, there probably wouldn't be any debates in RWED, at least not any fun ones. So it's all good

.

RUXTON

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 8:42 AM

One more item, boys and girls, for the truly interested: I did lots of shotgun pattern testing last summer. One of my guns, a 12-bore double choked Full and Full, puts ALL of its 1-1/4 ounces of shot -- every damned pellet -- from each barrel INSIDE a 30-inch-diameter circle at FORTY (40) yards.

Claims of 12-foot spreads from a full-choked ANYTHINGs at 30 yards are ENTIRELY BOGUS!

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 2:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:

Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Hey, I caught that dissing of the republicans. I represent that remark. I think that actually, the assholes are evenly split. I don't think I'm one of them. But then, no one does think of themselves as one of the assholes.

Lol, not sure if I missed a post or two, but were you talking about this?

Yeah, I got that, and then all the subsequent "Yeah, good thing those schmucks aren't around" banter.

Quote:
There's no way I'd count the pirates as republican, and you're somewhere slightly right of middle, but not necessarily republican either, to my mind at least. And definitely not an asshole, by 'foot in it' I meant that you and the others sometimes go a bit too far with some of your statements, which gives other people a reason to debate. Without you guys, there probably wouldn't be any debates in RWED, at least not any fun ones. So it's all good .

Lol, yeah, no, I wouldn't call them republicans. I'm solidly republican, but in a north east kind of way. I definitely support my corner of the republican party, and am maybe to the right of it, siding sometimes with the southerners, but this doesn't really make me any closer to Bush. I'm not sure Bush is at all republican, but what he gets from it is this christian extremism which is part of the party in Texas, but not around here. Trade/economic issues are extremely important in the NY GOP. I think there are some people in Texas who get this too, Ron Paul et al, but they have a heavy infection of christian looney.

By contrast, the NY Dems official position right now is they want to raise taxes to fund an expansion of state govt. Since we already have the highest taxes in the nation, I think this would be a bad idea. It doesn't effect me personally, but jobs flee NY like rats deserting a sinking ship, and it's all due to our unfavorable tax structure, which was a result of years of Cuomo, who was a real knucklehead, and before that Carrey anoter Dem. Cuomo's basic stance on rural areas was "F^&k 'em, they're probably not going to vote for me anyway."

Nationally, I don't think either party has given us much to like in many years. The GOP needs to duck out of thie Bush thing, andneeds to duck out of thie Bush thing, and needs to duck out of thie Bush thing, and b bneeds to duck out of thie Bush thing, and b b

CARTOON

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 3:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
But then, no one does think of themselves as one of the assholes.

Just remember this, Dream -- that without that specific body part we'd all be constitipated. So, yes, there's a necessity even for the most unseemly of parts. If nothing else, they help purge us of the crap we'd otherwise all fill up with.

(Darn, I ended with a preposition again -- oh well, I guess it's better than ending with a proposition).

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
24. That's what I would have guessed. I think now with Jenny here you are no longer the youngest.

My oh my. We're chock full of youngin's, ain't we? Someone pass me the walker, please.

At first I thought Dream might've been around my age, but (if I'm not mistaken) Dream stated elsewhere that he got his first computer when he was 13. There weren't any PCs around until I was in my 20's, so Dream's probably younger than me, as well -- (see, I can do basic math).

You can generally tell a poster's age by the certainty with which they declare their beliefs. The younger they are, the more certain they are that they're right and everyone else is -- uh, that unseemly body part (I was that way, myself for a lot longer than I'd care to admit).

The older one gets, they will usually discover at some point that the sun doesn't revolve around them and they are occasionally (and in my case -- more often than not) in error.

The more I learn, the more I realize what an idiot I am, and what an even bigger "unseemly body part" I was when I didn't realize it.

There's hope for all of us -- given enough time.

PIRATENEWS

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 7:55 PM

CHENEY'S GOT A GUN - ANIMATED MUSIC VIDEO

to the tune of "Janie's Got a Gun" by Aerosmith

Flash animation and lyrics by the Bob Rivers Show with Tooned In.

Note the beer cans.

WARNING TO CINDY SHEEHAN! RUN - for US Senate!

MUSIC VIDEO FLASH DOWNLOAD:
www.bobrivers.com/audiovault/downloads/cheneyvid.asp

MUSIC VIDEO VIDEO DOWNLOAD:
www.bobrivers.com/audiovault/downloads/downloads.asp

footnote:

A MOST DANGEROUS GAME WITH ELMER CHENEY

"Cheney was half lying across the plain military issue style desk in an apparent drug stupor as Bush talked. Still wearing his hunting coat and hat, Cheney aimed his rifle at me from the desk and threatened, 'Or a-hunting we will go.' Bush finished Cheney's threat by singing, 'We'll catch a fox and put her in a box and lower her in a hole.' Bush looked at Cheney and burst out laughing. The sight of him dressed in his hunting clothes with a huge bore double-barreled shotgun to his shoulder inspired Bush to tell him he 'looked like Elmer Fudd.' Cheney, imitating the cartoon character, said, 'Where is that waskily wabbit?'"
-Cathy O'Brien, TRANCE Formation of America
http://trance-formation.com
http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/most_dangerous_game
.htm

VIDEO DOWNLOAD OF INTERVIEWS WITH CATHY O'BRIEN AND MARK PHILLIPS BY GNN TV:
http://gnn.tv/videos/3/The_Most_Dangerous_Game
http://archive.org/details/tmdg_trailer
http://archive.org/details/tmdg_broll
http://piratenews.org/video-archive.html

"You know what Miami Vice is. Undercover drug agents taking control of the drug industry. A Vice President is just that - an undercover drug agent taking control of the drug industry - for the President."
-Dick Cheney, TRANCE Formation of America

Ronald and Nancy Reagan on drugs:
http://bobrivers.com/audiovault/downloads/files/rrn.wav

"They opened up her skull and cut into her brain... The only reason you do that is to lobotomize somebody... They did it over, and over..."
-Dr Tam

"FUCK CHENEY, ER, I MEAN TO SAY GOD BLESS DICK."

PELLETS PENETRATED WHITTINGTON'S SKULL, SINUSES, HEART AND LIVER:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/18/AR2006
021801147_pf.html
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/piratenewsrss/message/153

RUE

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 8:56 PM

Just out of curiosity I counted the number of pellet-holes I could see in his face and neck (roughly 15). Then ratioing it out (could really only see 1/4 of head) and using body area estimation (below), and accounts of liver and chest penetration but none of arm penetration, he received appx 150 pellets. That roughly dovetails with 200 pellets.

How many pellets are there in a shell?

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/etools/burn-percentage-in-adults.asp

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

PIRATENEWS

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 9:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:

Thanks to "Pirate" for posting that shot of Whittington. I knew my support of him on another thread would come in handy. Whittington's face shows VERY SIMILAR shot spread to what I got on my water jugs, shot at 30 yards. The patterns on his face PRECISELY reflect the shot spread I got on my water jugs. If I could post a picture I'd do so, but I prefer to wait and do so in the legitimate gun press, which will reach quite a few hundred thousand readers, rather than just a few hundred here. (I've already told Mike Rivero and Jeff Rense about this, but neither has acted on it yet.) If Whittington had been half as close as Cheney (correctly) claimed, the pellet marks on his face would be four times as dense, an easily seen thing. He'd also be dead. The pellet that lodged in the wall of his heart would have gone right through. (It almost certainly didn't "migrate" there, per a lengthy discussion with a doctor. It most likely penetrated the chest wall and lodged in the half-inch-thick wall of the heart, and only the next day or so did it cause enough inflammation to give trouble, much as if you stabbed yourself in the thigh with an icepick. The trouble would start from inflammation the next day or two, not immediately.)

To clarify, for the curious and openminded:

Shot velocity doesn't change with gauge. A 28-gauge gun slings its 3/4-ounce "game load" of shot at essentially the same velocity (about 1200-1300 fps) as a game load out of a 20, or 16, or 12, or 10 gauge gun. To put it another way, it does not matter what the gauge of the gun used was, shot velocity will be essentially identical in all gauges. The amount of shot, 3/4 ounce in this case, and the degree of choke (which has never published for Cheney's gun) are what determine the pellet density on the target. The same amount of shot fired from a larger bore will often give superior PATTERNS, meaning more even distribution of shot throughout its spread. (English gunmakers knew this over a century ago.) But three-quarters of an ounce of shot, whether fired from a .410, 28-gauge, 12-gauge, or what have you, will have essentially the SAME VELOCITY at 30 yards, no matter the gauge gun in which it was fired. The only difference may be in the QUALITY of the patterns.

What many don't understand is that a full-choked 12-bore will have a total spread of that 3/4-ounce of shot essentially IDENTICAL with the total spread of 3/4-ounce of shot from a full-choked 28-gauge barrel. This is hard even for many gun owners to grasp, but it is the simple truth. As noted, the shot will probably be more evenly distributed from the 12-bore, but not necessarily. There is no difference in the total spread between the two, and THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER IN KILLING POWER BETWEEN THE TWO!!

This is another point of general ignorance seen across the Internet, and one which many, if not most, do not understand. When dolts don't understand these things, they say things like:

"Alex Jones at least bought the exact model and choke of shotgun, and used same shells as Cheney."

This is clear indication of "Joe Shotgun" thinking he knows something about guns, when he doesn't know JACK SHIT. BTW, the CHOKES of Cheney's gun have NEVER been published, nor was the MAKE of Alex Jones' gun published, but we can be quite sure he didn't pop $6000-$8000 for a Perazzi o/u. So this rant by the Pirate is just more CRAPPO from someone who doesn't know anything about guns, but think that if they make lots of noise and waste lots of space, they just might impress someone.

Even if the velocity is increased at the muzzle from hotter loads, say to 1500 fps, the rapid falloff of velocity would find the pellets from the lower-velocity load not much slower than the hotrod at 30 yards. The big difference in shotguns is the amount of shot each can sling. Some 12-bore loads throw as much as 2 ounces of shot, not the 28-gauge's 3/4 ounce. But that's not what I did. I carefully weighed the shot to get 3/4 ounce. And as you now know, it doesn't matter what gauge gun I f

RUXTON

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 10:11 PM

Rue,
There were roughly 262 pellets of #7-1/2 lead shot in Cheney's load. There were 42 pellet strikes on the 9"x6" plastic jug I shot with 3/4-ounce of #7-1/2 shot, and taking into account its smaller area at the neck, it's easy to extrapolate that Whittington could easily have been hit with about 150 pellets.

BOYS AND GIRLS, here's more:
Pape was the first to patent choke-bored guns, which he did in England in 1866. Kimble, in the U.S., also was early with the concept, but the definitive proof of the concept lies with Pape.

"Choke" is a slight constriction of the inside of the muzzle of a shotgun. The effect of this is to improve patterning performance (tighter and/or more-even distribution of the shot), which, as a result, also extend the distance at which the gun can maintain a killing pattern (no holes through which a bird could escape, even though the bird may be within the shot charge). "Full" choke is defined (in most circles) as that degree of constriction that will put 70 percent of the shot charge within a 30-inch diameter circle at a measured 40 yards from the point on which the shooter stands (not measured from the muzzle, note).

One of my Full-choked guns delivers 100-percent patterns. ALL the shot is within that circle at 40 yards.

Just this morning a gunsmith friend asked me what gauge I used for my tests. Another shooting friend phoned me, and when asked how much more densely the shot would strike if the target were half the distance, he replied, "Twice as dense." That is incorrect. The pattern at half the range would be FOUR times as dense, varying with the area of the shot-charge circle, which for simplicity's sake may be considered to travel in a cone shape from muzzle to target. So not only do most laymen know nothing about shotgun power, patterning and performance, neither do many experienced shooters.

RUXTON

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 10:49 PM

I strongly suggest any gun owners who doubt my test results to simply go out and shoot a jug of water, using only 3/4 ounce of #7-1/2 shot, any gauge you want, velocity about 1200 fps, though velocity really doesn't matter much. At a range of 30 yards, give or take a couple, given a full or modified choke, you'll see patterns identical with that seen on Whittington's face. It's just that simple. No more bullshit. Just go do it.

There is no need for calling others names, nor any need by the woefully uninformed to make lame attempts to justify their self-importance. BTW, when a doctor declares there is no need for surgery, yet a certain poster claims Whittington's skull was penetrated, do you believe that doctor or that poster?

Just go shoot a water jug. Observe the pattern density, which will look like Whittington's face if you shoot at 30 yards, and observe the penetration. No more manure. Just go do it.

For those who care, my test results have been published worldwide continuously, beginning about 30 years ago with many stories in the then-one-million circulation "The American Rifleman," magazine of the NRA. This will be my last word on veracity: I really do know what I'm talking about when I write about any sort of firearm. Pirate, Alex Jones, and a host of others do not. Hope you've all enjoyed this little string.

Go shoot water jugs. Do it. No more crap. End of discussion.

PIRATENEWS

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 11:25 PM

I'm not saying Whitt wasn't shot at 90-feet/30-yards, which MIGHT be true judging by his face. I'm saying your test didn't recreate the exact conditions of the drunken assault. You don't even post an image of your results. I've devastated many targets with a shotgun, but that don't excuse me from being scientific about the Cheney case.

I DARE you to publish your "professional" ballistics report, using the parameters I suggested:

(1) oversize paper targets at 10-foot intervals (10' to 100')
(2) 28-gauge shotgun
(3) 7.5 pellets (both lead and other metals)
(4) 3 chokes sizes
(5) velocity measurement (tough to do on a shotgun)
(6) correction chart for various barrel lengths
(7) 3 different gunpowder loads
(8) table of results
(9) photos of each target with sufficient resolution to see individual pellets, with a ruler included in the photo
(10) Hi-res photo of Whittington's head injuries
(11) videotape of entire test posted for free download, to verify chain of custody

If you REALLY want to be a pro, then use expensive ballistic gelatin at 10-foot intervals, and record the depth of penetration.

"Professional" only means somebody pays you a little paycheck. Prostitutes are professionals, too. So's the cashier at Walmart.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:

BTW, when a doctor declares there is no need for surgery, yet a certain poster claims Whittington's skull was penetrated, do you believe that doctor or that poster?

WHITTINGTON was the one who feared bullets in his skull, as his ER doctors admitted was a possibility, requiring the attention of specialists. Nasal cavities are part of the skull, and are very thin and brittle. Whittington was shot in the face, eyes and nose, where sinus passages are located. If pellets can bypass ribs and reach the heart and liver, they can reach his brain via sinuses. Can an MRI find non-magnetic lead shot? Presumably, an x-ray can see it. That would be an interesting photo...

Mafia hitmen prefer 22-caliber snub-nosed subsonic pistols, firing subsonic "self-silencing" bullets point-blank to the skull, and have no difficulty scrambling brains (Senator RFK shot in back of head by his Mafia bodyguard).

Quote:
First Doctors to Treat Cheney's Victim Lost in Press Coverage

Editor & Publisher
February 17, 2006

"They had arranged the HELO-flight before(Whittington) even showed up," Subnani said. "The emergency room doctor had already decided he should be transferred." Subnani said he disagreed with the decision, believing Whittington could have spent the night in Kingsville.

Asked specifically about this, Dr. Martin refused to comment, "I was not going to question(Whittington's) judgment, though," Subnani said. "He was worried about some of the pellets in the sinuses." He added that the Corpus Christi hospital had doctors better able to diagnose such an ear, nose, and throat problem. "They did not think he should stay," Subnani added, "because this hospital was not really equipped for a trauma case."

That is why some reporters have questioned why Whittington was taken by ambulance to this hospital when he could have just as easily been driven to Corpus Christi right away -- or picked up by helicopter at the shooting scene.

Whittington eventually left the first hospital via helicopter at about 7:45 p.m., Subnani recalled. When asked if Whittington's eventual heart attack indicated that Subnani's original diagnoses that the wounds were not severe was wrong, the doctor defended his determination. "At that age (78), we don't know the extent of his coronary situation," he said. "That is hard to predict, what really caused that arrhythmia."

Subnani added that he has not been interviewed by any law enforcement or investigative agents working on the case. "No one has talked to me," he said.

The ER doc is risking lawsuit for medical malpractice, which ER docs are notorious for. MDs murder 2.5-MILLION Americans every year (weblink in my previous post). Whittington is at HIGH risk of infection from the pellets, or iatrogenic (hospital

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 12:19 AM

An Apple ][e, on 2/27/83

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 12:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cartoon:

You can generally tell a poster's age by the certainty with which they declare their beliefs. The younger they are, the more certain they are that they're right and everyone else is -- uh, that unseemly body part (I was that way, myself for a lot longer than I'd care to admit).

The older one gets, they will usually discover at some point that the sun doesn't revolve around them and they are occasionally (and in my case -- more often than not) in error.

Excellent observation.

I've found two things which I will add to this, that explains the positions of older people:

1. They have themselves been wrong, and so understand that it is possible to be wrong and yet redeemable.

2. They have had certain cherished beliefs shattered by decades of serious overwhelming proof of wrongness.

3. This helps explain why they are more likely to understand new opposing points of view.

4. This helps to explain their total rejection of particular old points of view, see point 2.

CARTOON

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 1:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
An Apple ][e, on 2/27/83

Yes. I was in my 20's, as I said.

You were fortunate to get a computer that early on. I didn't get my first computer until 1995, well into my 30's.

CITIZEN

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 2:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreamtrove:
An Apple ][e, on 2/27/83

My father had a Spectrum 81 for as long as I can remember.

Cartoon:
I get the feeling that some of what you posted is a surreptitious insult directed at me, not that I don't expect such things from you. I can remember your level of converse in that other thread, oh mature one

.

But since your ignoring everything I post in that mature way of your's I won't expect a reply

.

CitizenStill Thinks Hypocrites are funny...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 12:40 PM

Quote:
some of what you posted is a surreptitious insult directed at me

But on the other hand, if looked at this way, half of everything posted on this board can be defined that way, from any point of view.

CITIZEN

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 2:40 PM

Not really, I just know how Cartoon operates.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

PIRATENEWS

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 8:34 PM

Quote:
Secret Service says Cheney was DRUNK when he shot lawyer

Written report by SS agents: "inebriated" VP consumed alcohol before, during and after hunting espedition.

Doug Thompson,
Capitol Hill Blue,
February 22 2006.

A written report from Secret Service agents guarding Vice President Dick Cheney when he shot Texas lawyer Harry Whittington on a hunting outing two weeks ago says Cheney was "clearly inebriated" at the time of the shooting.

Agents observed several members of the hunting party, including the Vice President, consuming alcohol before and during the hunting expedition, the report notes, and Cheney exhibited "visible signs" of impairment, including slurred speech and erratic actions, the report said.

According to those who have read the report and talked with others present at the outing, Cheney was drunk when he gunned down his friend and the day-and-a-half delay in allowing Texas law enforcement officials on the ranch where the shooting occurred gave all members of the hunting party time to sober up.

We talked with a number of administration officials who are privy to inside information on the Vice President's shooting "accident" and all admit Secret Service agents and others saw Cheney consume far more than the "one beer' he claimed he drank at lunch earlier that day.

"This was a South Texas hunt," says one White House aide. "Of course there was drinking. There's always drinking. Lots of it."

Cheney has a long history of alcohol abuse, including two convictions of driving under the influence when he was younger. Doctors tell me that someone like Cheney, who is taking blood thinners because of his history of heart attacks, could get legally drunk now after consuming just one drink.

If Cheney was legally drunk at the time of the shooting, he could be guilty of a felony under Texas law and the shooting, ruled an accident by a compliant Kenedy County Sheriff, would be a prosecutable offense.

But we will never know for sure because the owners of the Armstrong Ranch, where the shooting occurred, barred the sheriff's department from the property on the day of the shooting and Kenedy County Sheriff Ramon Salinas III agreed to wait until the next day to send deputies in to talk to those involved.

Sheriff's Captain Charles Kirk says he went to the Armstrong Ranch immediately after the shooting was reported on Saturday, February 11 but both he and a game warden were not allowed on the 50,000-acre property. He called Salinas who told him to forget about it and return to the station.

"I told him don't worry about it. I'll make a call," Salinas said. The sheriff claims he called another deputy who moonlights at the Armstrong ranch, said he was told it was "just an accident" and made the decision to wait until Sunday to investigate.

"We've known these people for years. They are honest and wouldn't call us, telling us a lie," Salinas said.

Like all elected officials in Kenedy County, Salinas owes his job to the backing and financial support of Katherine Armstrong, owner of the ranch and the county's largest employer.

"The Armstrongs rule Kenedy County like a fiefdom," says a former employee.

Secret Service officials also took possession of all tests on Whittington's blood at the hospitals where he was treated for his wounds. When asked if a blood alcohol test had been performed on Whittington, the doctors who treated him at Christus Spohn Hospital Memorial in Corpus Christi or the hospital in Kingsville refused to answer. One admits privately he was ordered by the Secret Service to "never discuss the case with the press."

It's a sure bet that is a private doctor who treated the victim of Cheney's reckless and drunken actions can't talk to the public then the memo that shows the Vice President was drunk as a skunk will never see the light of day.

www.capitolhillblue.com/blog/2006/02/secret_service_agents_say_chen.ht
ml

See also:

Dick Cheney's 2 DUI CONVICTIONS court files:
www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/cheney_doc.html

"There's a report out tonight that 24-y

FLETCH2

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 10:17 PM

First computer I had access to -- Commodore PET 2000 in (I think 1978.) First computer I owned Commodore VIC20 November 1981. First PC I had I built from parts in 1992.

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, February 23, 2006 6:31 AM

First computer I used was my dad's at work, which was the Atex mainframe system, I think it was '77. I remember the PET. Also the Atari 400/800.

FLYINGTAMS

Friday, February 24, 2006 3:03 AM

Of course he wasn't lying, he's a great shot - the last time he had an accident was over 40 years ago, on a grassy knoll in texas ;)