Serenity strikes a blow for conservatism!

POSTED BY: Blinker
UPDATED: Friday, June 9, 2006 07:31
VIEWED: 19624
PAGE 1 of 1

BLINKER

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 2:18 PM

(Apparently!)

http://www.brigittepellerin.com/2005/crazyhollywood.htm

Quote:
While left-leaning Hollywood studio executives struggle through yet another prolonged slump, movies that showcase clear moral and conservative principles make a bundle at the box office. The success of Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ, and of films like Lord of the Rings, Serenity and even Team America: World Police (excessive obscenities aside, a funny display of the Left’s inanities), as well as the excitement surrounding the upcoming The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe have a way of stirring the blood and stiffening the sinews of conservative film buffs everywhere.

...

The folks who make the festival possible understand the mainstream media isn’t quite ready for truly and unabashedly conservative films. They wish it were different, but they’re not getting mad. They’re getting even; what conservative filmmakers lack in Entertainment Tonight coverage they make up in elaborate grassroots campaigns and online distribution. Word-of-mouth contributed greatly to the success of Serenity, which is still playing in theatres, and there’s no reason it won’t do the same for other features including the unsettling Obsession: Radical Islam’s War Against the West, which won the award for Best Feature at the Liberty Film Festival.

_________
Sliders: Gate Haven - http://slidersweb.net/blinker

HERO

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 2:57 PM

I have found from discussion here over the past couple years that Firefly and Serenity's message is heard by conservatives like myself as conservative. Liberals have experianced the same notion, that is that it supports their (misguided)political leaning.

I see this as the magic of what Joss has created. It speaks to the human condition and thus our political predispositions are not a hamper to our enjoyment of the work. The work speaks for itself.

That said, Firefly is all conservative and if you liked it then deep down you must be a right-winger too.

H

SIKKUKUT

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 3:02 PM

All that lesbianism, whoring, and atheism, those are some conservative values.

Of course, all the gun rights, distrust of big government, and desire to be out on the frontier really ARE conservative values (and I could probably think of better examples were I conservative), so I'm not sure where that leaves us.

Given the mixed message, I think it's a mistake to hold Firefly or Serenity up as a champion of liberalism or conservatism.

I've heard that one group that generally loved Serenity are the libertarians. I mean, think about it... Mal & Co. just want to be left alone, free to pursue their own messy, human immorality in peace. If that's not libertarian, I don't know what it is.

__________________
To err is human, but computers do it much faster.

ROCKETJOCK

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 3:16 PM

All I know is that anyone who thinks Team America: World Police is a paean to conservatism either hasn't seen it, or lives in an irony-free zone.

"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn

SIMONWHO

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 3:24 PM

Let's settle this: just before I watched the preview screening of Serenity, a letter from Joss was read out in which he apologised to us for the US President and that he still couldn't work out how that happened. (Needless to say, this got thunderous applause).

BISHOP76

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 3:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Blinker:
Quote:
While left-leaning Hollywood studio executives struggle through yet another prolonged slump, movies that showcase clear moral and conservative principles make a bundle at the box office. The success of Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ, and of films like Lord of the Rings, Serenity and even Team America: World Police (excessive obscenities aside, a funny display of the Left’s inanities), as well as the excitement surrounding the upcoming The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe have a way of stirring the blood and stiffening the sinews of conservative film buffs everywhere.

Okay, I don't even know where to begin with pointing out innacuracies in this paragraph.

To assign any political ideology to Lord of the Rings is ridiculous. It was written so long ago that it doesn't even apply to our modern values/political parties.

Serenity (as a previous poster said) is without a doubt more a champion of libertarianism than conservatism and to describe Serenity as "making a bundle at the box office" is just a plain lie and we all know it. Try as we may have, it pretty much only broke even WORLDWIDE.

On that same note, Team America didn't rake in the dough at the box office either - it's as much a "cult favorite" as Serenity is. Team America also only broke even domestically - any money it made was brought in by foreign moviegoers. Money made by Team America aside, HOW CAN YOU MISS THE FACT THAT THE MOVIE ITSELF IS A HUGE RIP ON THE ULTRA PATRIOTISM THAT'S A TRAIT OF THE RIGHT!?!?! I'm not saying that this is a leftist propoganda film, but I will say that it gets a TON of shots in at both sides. Like all of Trey and Matt's work, they point out the stupidity in EVERYONE'S point of view or personal beliefs or whatever you want to call it.

Anyway, point is, don't make it more than it is - it's a movie, and a damn good one at that - let's not have it championing any causes...

GELASSENHEIT

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 3:37 PM

gosh, I thought these were just, like movies?

Gelassenheit means Serenity

GELASSENHEIT

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 3:37 PM

edited cuz somehow this got sent in twice.

BROWNCOATRECRUITER

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 3:52 PM

Delusional arrogance? Conservatism? What?

"...there's a whole universe of folk who are gonna know it too. They're gonna see it. Somebody has to speak for these people." -Mal

STARSONG

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 3:53 PM

As to the whole "whoring and lesbianism and everything" not representing "conservative values" -- remember Inara's from the Core. And an Alliance sympathizer. ;)

Honestly, one of the things that impresses me MOST about Joss is that he can write a story featuring characters and an ethos that goes directly contrary to his own beliefs. I do believe I've read something in one of his interviews to the effect of he prolly wouldn't get along with Mal at all "in real life."

I'd say the overall message of the 'verse (when seen from Mal's POV, which has an understandable but considerable bias) is closest to liberatarianism, laced with old-school conservative values. IE -- individual liberty, devolution of power to the local level, minimal gov't interference.. but a man's still got to do the Right Thing, whether or not some fed is staring over his shoulder.

Essentially, "ain't got no call to stop you, just want to go about my way."

Then again, they are criminals. ;)

BREWGRL

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 4:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sikkukut:
All that lesbianism, whoring, and atheism, those are some conservative values.

Of course, all the gun rights, distrust of big government, and desire to be out on the frontier really ARE conservative values (and I could probably think of better examples were I conservative), so I'm not sure where that leaves us.

Given the mixed message, I think it's a mistake to hold Firefly or Serenity up as a champion of liberalism or conservatism.

I've heard that one group that generally loved Serenity are the libertarians. I mean, think about it... Mal & Co. just want to be left alone, free to pursue their own messy, human immorality in peace. If that's not libertarian, I don't know what it is.

__________________
To err is human, but computers do it much faster.

Actually, just wanted to point out that distrust of big government is not a conservative value, it is in fact a republican value. There is a difference between being conservative and being a republican. I know many liberal republicans who cringe when they get grouped with the conservatives. Conservatism and Liberalism is more about how you feel about moral issues, while being democratic or republican is about your political philosophy (big national government and lots of social programs versus small localized governments who believe in tax cuts and few social programs)
That being said, firefly certainly has more libertarian leanings as other posters have pointed out, but it is very liberal when it comes to moral ideologies. Frankly any one who can't see that needs to go back to school and take a political science 101 course.

DAVESHAYNE

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 4:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by StarSong:
I do believe I've read something in one of his interviews to the effect of he prolly wouldn't get along with Mal at all "in real life."

In the OVC Joss says (among other things), "I've often said that if Mal and I sat down to dinner, we'd have a terrible time."

David

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a tv show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

CEDRIC

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 4:47 PM

(Let me preface these comments by stating that while I lean to the left, I'm currently doing volunteer work for a Republican candidate. So I think that qualifies me as a centrist.)

The person who wrote that article apparently equates conservatism with moral fibre and liberalism with the lack of it--a viewpoint that many people have been duped into accepting by the propagandist conservative media (i.e. Rush Limbaugh and his progeny). Claiming that movies appealing to the middle are conservative is just one more way of attempting to demonize the left.

Fact is, there are moral people on both sides of the divide, and scumbags on both sides. Writers like Joss Whedon, as well as the creators of Team America, understand that. (Team America reminds me a lot of a comment that Robert Anton Wilson once made: "Any fascist regime will eventually appear to be a parody of fascism.")

For the record, the operative's blind faith in his religion/government reminds me a lot of the religious right. I don't think I even need to point out the significance of young River's speech about a government that wants to tell people what to think.

"You can't take my show from me,
Because I've got the DVD."
www.bedlambards.com/Browncoats.html
Ballad of Joss: http://mp3-postcards.com/listen/?888
Big Damn Trilogy: http://mp3-postcards.com/listen/?1010

SIKKUKUT

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 4:59 PM

You hear a lot from both sides about the media bias for the other side. I don't buy it. The media's just trying to sell, which means sensationalizing everything. The bias goes both ways.

As for the original review, if you look at the movies, I think what's astonishing about the last few years at the box office isn't how much conservatism sells-- it's how much *religion* sells. Passion of the Christ is an obvious example, but this December had a lesson as well. I thought for sure that King Kong would beat out Chronicles of Narnia, because everyone I know was excited about it... but I sorely underestimated the power of a movie that could ride the coat-tails of both Lord of the Rings and Passion simultaneously. Faith *sells*. When did that happen?

"Fact is, there are moral people on both sides of the divide, and scumbags on both sides."

Cedric, you are too right. I see people on both sides who disgust and sadden me, and people on both sides who are truly, genuinely good. The common traits among the good ones, at least in my point of view, are compassion and tolerance. Book's the good kind of believer, and the Operative is the bad kind.

Serenity and Firefly were, on the whole, damn good entertainment and truly touching art. That does more for me than propping up an ideology.

__________________
To err is human, but computers do it much faster.

SACREDCHAO

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 5:04 PM

I feel compelled to echo two sentiments in this thread:
1) Conservatism does not equal Republicanism.
2) If the show was to be forced to wear one label, Libertarian makes the most sense to me.

COPILOT

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 5:27 PM

There is no lessons to be found in the ‘verse. We all love these characters so much we want them to be on our side. But that was the whole premise these are just people. Different people. People who fight laugh cry and die just like anyone else. No one on that boat believed the same way. Life is full of choices moral and other wise and those choices only serve to keep us occupied while we’re busy not being dead. Just my point of view please don’t hate me.

An I carried such a torch

STARSONG

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 5:31 PM

Quote:

That being said, firefly certainly has more libertarian leanings as other posters have pointed out, but it is very liberal when it comes to moral ideologies. Frankly any one who can't see that needs to go back to school and take a political science 101 course.

How exactly are you defining this?

For instance, the Core has institutionalized prostitution, legalized marijuana use (ref, "Visual Companion"), and is generally portrayed as "enlightened" "civilized" so forth and so on. State-provided this, State-provided that.. in many ways, so long as you don't look below the surface, it looks to me like a classic leftist/progressive vision of the world.

The Rim/Frontier don't got none of that, but it also doesn't have folk spying over every little thing they do. It's much freer, but that freedom has a cost.. the strong do at times take advantage over the weak (Heart of Gold, Jaynestown). Sad little kings set themselves up on a whole bunch of sad little hills. For all its flaws, it seems to me the prototypical laissez-faire conservative vision of the world. Make your own way, don't count on no one for any handouts, but help those in need (out of your own pocket). Watch your neighbor's back, and he'll watch yours.. but stay out of each other's business best you can.

So far, that doesn't strike me as political one way or another -- rather a fairly realistic of the way things are. The farther you move from "civilization" the more freedom you can (potentially) have... but there ain't no safety net but your neighbors, and there's more than a little danger of losing everything, whether by simple mischance or a more powerful neighbor taking your stuff.

So far as values in the show itself.. we see the 'verse mostly through the eyes of a man raised in the latter environment, who had everything he valued ripped from him by those from the former. That doesn't mean he's always right, or sees things in a clear light. The Alliance, like America, Joss reminds us is a force for great good as well as great harm. I believe Joss's words were something to the effect of "they can be the America of WWII as well the America of VietNam. But Mal can't see that because he's VietNamese"

Now.. I don't see outright liberal values (so far as I understand them, meaning support for helping folks via state-run health care, income "insurance," goodies of all one kind or another, along with strict regulation of commerce) as being celebrated in the show. What I *do* see is concern for one's neighbor and sticking together as a family in tough times- and those are *human* values, which belong to neither party nor any particular political point of view. (Don't believe that, check out the charity stats sometime, you might be surprised).

If anything, the "stand on your own two feet, even if it leaves you stranded in the black" attitude of Mal seems VERY socially conservative to me. Ditto his love for Inara as a person, but strong dissaproval of her profession. But then again... Mal ain't the whole of Firefly by a long stretch. I'd argue a big part of its appeal is how it manages to accurately portray people being people.. and that even good people can do bad things for what they think are good reasons.

"We meant it for the best"

NUCKLES87

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 5:36 PM

Your a fool if you think Serenity/Firefly lean either conservative or liberal.

It's a mix of both. Everyone on the boat has their own ideals, thus some are liberal, some are conservative.

How's my firefly speak? Good? Bad? Fee-oo?

...It's fee-oo isn't it?

UNREGISTEREDCOMPANION

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 9:08 PM

"I've heard that one group that generally loved Serenity are the libertarians."

Well, this registered libertarian LOVES Serenity :D

And yes, the Operative does remind me of some of the religious types I have run in to over the years.

But the whole "Lets meddle and make people better against their will"...well, that reminds me of some of my liberal associates. They know what's best for you. Just ask them! LOL

I am an athiest Libertarian married to an athiest Republican. In many ways we don't really fit well with the Republican mind set, but the left..well...they are just wacky!

~~~~~
"Funny and sexy. You have no idea. And you never will."

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 9:18 PM

I think it's a mixed bag that our BDHs are offering, and is neither wholy conservative or liberal. That's why I think it has such a wide cross section of support.

Wash was right when he said that if everything were right, they'd be in jail...being crooks and all.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

GAMMARAYGIRL

Tuesday, February 21, 2006 9:27 PM

Libertarianism is all about the free will.

If anything, Firefly is libertarian.

SAZMAN

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 6:20 PM

"For me, The Alliance just got elected for a second term" - Joss Whedon, after the 2004 election

I think that clarifies things.

Start with the part where Jayne gets knocked out by a 90 pound girl. 'Cause I don't think that's ever getting old.

ISAACSHEPHERD

Wednesday, February 22, 2006 7:46 PM

In my opinion I don't think FF or Serenity leans either way, it's about being human, not political. I think living the way you see fit is a natural way people want to live. I am tired of talks of politics, considering it seeps into movies so much. Can't we all just get along and be entertained? I don't think FF/Serenity show liberal or conservative values. I don't think Joss intended to make a political stance with his series like Hollywood or other film studios do.
IS

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 23, 2006 12:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by sazman:
"For me, The Alliance just got elected for a second term" - Joss Whedon, after the 2004 election

I think that clarifies things.

Start with the part where Jayne gets knocked out by a 90 pound girl. 'Cause I don't think that's ever getting old.

Yeah, and all those fans who voted for the other guy, are we suppose to blindly accept what our leader Joss says? I'll look to him for my entertainment , and elsewhere for my politics.

STARSONG

Thursday, February 23, 2006 12:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:
"For me, The Alliance just got elected for a second term" - Joss Whedon, after the 2004 election

I think that clarifies things.

Not really. "The author and I voted for the same guy" doesn't necessarily translate to "The Good Guys think like MyTeam does and the Bad Guys think like The OtherTeam does."

Both "teams" have some darn opressive things in their platforms.. the thing is that it's human nature to notice oppression that affects oneself most directly first and foremost.

The collectivist "make everybody nice" beaureucratic nightmare part of the Alliance more closely resembles the American left (with strong ties back to the Communist ideal of the "New Man" I might add). The "eyes over every shoulder and a soldier on every country (planet)" part of the Alliance more closely resembles the post-9/11 Republicans (which themselves don't resemble traditional conservatives on either point.. though the argument could certainly be made that the Blue Sun/UAP mess, whatever it would have turned out to be, could be relevant critiques to ever pre-9/11 Republicans, though not true free-marketers).

Anyhow, my point is no matter your your political affiliation, you're sure to see a lot you don't like in the Alliance... it's the worst of both worlds.

Anyhow, as already noted, the characters we love are quite different. Were they all yanked back to 2007 USA and shoved kicking and screaming into te voting booth, Mal would likely pull the lever for the Libertarian (being one for high ideals and lost causes) or *possibly* Republican if he trusted his local reps enough, Inara and Simon both strike me as folks who'd vote Democrat or possibly Libertarian (Simon perhaps much more likely to do the latter after the whole River thing, but that's hard to say), Jayne would vote for whoever the NRA told him to, and River would just make funny crayon drawings on the ballot while nonchalantly spilling off every skeleton in every Washington-dwellers closet. In iambic pentamter.

Ya know, the more I think on it, the more I like the crayon thing.

LOOKATTHATBIRD

Thursday, February 23, 2006 1:41 AM

"To assign any political ideology to Lord of the Rings is ridiculous. It was written so long ago that it doesn't even apply to our modern values/political parties."

LOTR was written in the 1950's. It seems to me that a book written 50ish years ago, if it had any political bias in the first place, would be perfectally aplicable to our times.

But since there is no real system of government in Middle Earth, aside from kingdoms and such, it's still deffinatly not conservative. I imagine whoever wrote that article was projecting their own fantasies into the film. Perhaps they see Liberals as an evil in our times, and since Sauron is a very general, timeless evil they saw his reign as a depiction of liberalism? Maybe?

KWICKO

Thursday, February 23, 2006 2:10 AM

Edited. Others summed it up so much better than I could...

BISHOP76

Thursday, February 23, 2006 3:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lookatthatbird:

LOTR was written in the 1950's. It seems to me that a book written 50ish years ago, if it had any political bias in the first place, would be perfectally aplicable to our times.

I still have to disagree with you on this - the 50s were the era of McCarthyism, segregation was still in full swing, and to sum it up, the most liberal thinking back then would be seen as a conservative view in this day and age.

To change gears completely, I think that sometimes people try to look *WAY* too deeply into films for meanings and symbolism that just isn't there...

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 23, 2006 12:50 PM

Quote:
I still have to disagree with you on this - the 50s were the era of McCarthyism, segregation was still in full swing, and to sum it up, the most liberal thinking back then would be seen as a conservative view in this day and age.

To change gears completely, I think that sometimes people try to look *WAY* too deeply into films for meanings and symbolism that just isn't there...

Every time period comes w/ its baggage and drawbacks. Slavery still exists in Africa, and across the far Mid -> Far East. Likely we'll always have various forms of evil in our society...even on a grand, wide spread scale. And yet, things do manage to change, over time.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

JONUS

Thursday, February 23, 2006 1:52 PM

I have no problem with left-wingers and right-wingers. I do have a problem with extreme left-wingers and right-wingers. For example:

Bush = Extreme right-winger (redneck idiot)

Kerry = Extreme left-winger (rich wuss)

Whether I'm left-wing or right-wing depends on the issue.

Attack me, not my opinion.

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 23, 2006 2:55 PM

Quote:
Bush = Extreme right-winger (redneck idiot)

Bush might be right wing, but extreme? Not by a long shot. And regardless to what he may be at heart, he certainly doesn't govern like any right winger. There's a long list of things he's supported which are contrary to what right wingers believe. Extreme could be used in context as extreme idiot, but certainly not extreme right winger.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

AMITON

Thursday, February 23, 2006 3:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bishop76:
Quote:
Originally posted by Lookatthatbird:

LOTR was written in the 1950's. It seems to me that a book written 50ish years ago, if it had any political bias in the first place, would be perfectally aplicable to our times.

I still have to disagree with you on this - the 50s were the era of McCarthyism, segregation was still in full swing, and to sum it up, the most liberal thinking back then would be seen as a conservative view in this day and age.

To change gears completely, I think that sometimes people try to look *WAY* too deeply into films for meanings and symbolism that just isn't there...

Wow...I have to disagree with the post tying the LOTR books to modern politics too closely, but I'm not very sure I agree with your reasoning =\ JRR Tolkien was British, for one thing. He wasn't really saying anything at all about the American political climate with regard to McCarthyism or segregation. The armies and events in the books, however, were modeled, with intent, after the things that he saw and experienced while he was a soldier in WWII. He also was pretty careful about his selection of how he depicted the visual aspects of each race, region, or group, and he went out of his way to generalize things some so that the "lessons" could be applied in a larger context.

There is actually quite a bit published about the intended symbolism in the LOTR books, both expository and speculation from English Lit professionals (the people who brought you volumes of specualtion about Hemmingway's writing, who, when questioned directly about the symbolism about one of his writings on a boy after a revelation of a snowfall responded "Symbolism? No, actually, I just wanted to write a nice story about a boy in the snow!") and from Tolkien and his family as well.

Well, was that rambling enough? I'll, uh, go back into the corner and shut up now...

Amiton.

BISHOP76

Thursday, February 23, 2006 3:37 PM

Quote:
Wow...I have to disagree with the post tying the LOTR books to modern politics too closely, but I'm not very sure I agree with your reasoning =\ JRR Tolkien was British, for one thing. He wasn't really saying anything at all about the American political climate with regard to McCarthyism or segregation.

First off, I do know he's British, but to be quite honest, I don't know much about the 1950's British political landscape. I was using examples from what I know to show how much things have changed in the past 50 years - an attempt to illustrate that political ideology from back then is not applicable now. I wasn't saying that LOTR ties into either of the examples I gave.

Quote:
The armies and events in the books, however, were modeled, with intent, after the things that he saw and experienced while he was a soldier in WWII.

I'm sure that's the case. But experiences from WW2 aren't exactly political ideologies.

Quote:
There is actually quite a bit published about the intended symbolism in the LOTR books, both expository and speculation from English Lit professionals (the people who brought you volumes of specualtion about Hemmingway's writing, who, when questioned directly about the symbolism about one of his writings on a boy after a revelation of a snowfall responded "Symbolism? No, actually, I just wanted to write a nice story about a boy in the snow!") and from Tolkien and his family as well.

Well, I'm no Tolkien expert - I just like the books, but that *IS* the quote I was looking for to use in my last message. I couldn't remember who said it, but I remember the quote. I should have known - Hemmingway...

KOMELION

Thursday, February 23, 2006 4:36 PM

Why do we have to assign some political agenda to Serenity? Why not just watch the movie say, “Huh, that was a really good movie,” and watch it again? As Zoe said, “Don’t sully this.”

------
Some of you seem to be misapprehending my purpose in being here.

SAZMAN

Thursday, February 23, 2006 5:34 PM

Quote:
The armies and events in the books, however, were modeled, with intent, after the things that he saw and experienced while he was a soldier in WWII.

Actually, it was WWI. Tolkien was in the trenches and lost several of his closest friends to that dreadful war.

People often asked him, or tried to claim that LotR was a commnetary on WWII, or that the ring represented nuclear technology, etc., but Tolkien always vehemently denied this, insisting that there was no allegory intended.

*********************************************

Start with the part where Jayne gets knocked out by a 90 pound girl. 'Cause I don't think that's ever getting old.

DINKY

Thursday, February 23, 2006 5:41 PM

Umm I don't know if anyone has pointed this out in the thread yet (haven't read the replies yet, I'm lazy).... But I think Joss Whedon is Liberal himself...

He's said himself he think's guns are 'disgusting'. Conservatives love guns... I know... I'm a conservative... We just bought two more guns today... We're about half way to having 40 guns in this house.... Not me though I'm only 16 :P. My Dad's guns is what I mean.

And I just read a couple and SimonWho... Believe me... Only the liberals applauded... No Conservative would applaud to insulting George W Bush, errr when it comes to 99% of the stuff he does anyway.

"Th3re !s n0 spo0Ne." -The Matricks

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 23, 2006 9:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dinky:
Umm I don't know if anyone has pointed this out in the thread yet (haven't read the replies yet, I'm lazy).... But I think Joss Whedon is Liberal himself...

He's said himself he think's guns are 'disgusting'. Conservatives love guns... I know... I'm a conservative... We just bought two more guns today... We're about half way to having 40 guns in this house.... Not me though I'm only 16 :P. My Dad's guns is what I mean.

And I just read a couple and SimonWho... Believe me... Only the liberals applauded... No Conservative would applaud to insulting George W Bush, errr when it comes to 99% of the stuff he does anyway.

"Th3re !s n0 spo0Ne." -The Matricks

Well, SOME conservatives love guns. I'm a conservative, and I don't own a single gun (as far as you know

) Nor do I subscribe to any gun magazines, or belong to any gun clubs. I don't even hunt. I have nothing against guns, per se. It's just an object.....

But I do enjoy a playing Halo2 on XBLive, does that count?

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

AMITON

Thursday, February 23, 2006 11:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bishop76:
Quote:
Wow...I have to disagree with the post tying the LOTR books to modern politics too closely, but I'm not very sure I agree with your reasoning =\ JRR Tolkien was British, for one thing. He wasn't really saying anything at all about the American political climate with regard to McCarthyism or segregation.

First off, I do know he's British, but to be quite honest, I don't know much about the 1950's British political landscape. I was using examples from what I know to show how much things have changed in the past 50 years - an attempt to illustrate that political ideology from back then is not applicable now. I wasn't saying that LOTR ties into either of the examples I gave.

Quote:
The armies and events in the books, however, were modeled, with intent, after the things that he saw and experienced while he was a soldier in WWII.

I'm sure that's the case. But experiences from WW2 aren't exactly political ideologies.

Quote:
There is actually quite a bit published about the intended symbolism in the LOTR books, both expository and speculation from English Lit professionals (the people who brought you volumes of specualtion about Hemmingway's writing, who, when questioned directly about the symbolism about one of his writings on a boy after a revelation of a snowfall responded "Symbolism? No, actually, I just wanted to write a nice story about a boy in the snow!") and from Tolkien and his family as well.

Well, I'm no Tolkien expert - I just like the books, but that *IS* the quote I was looking for to use in my last message. I couldn't remember who said it, but I remember the quote. I should have known - Hemmingway...

Didn't mean to come off as an ass, Bishop

I hope I didn't offend.

As for it being WWI, I thought that was right, but I second guessed myself because of the date thing. My bad. I could also have *sworn* that it was stated explicitly that the framework for the books was after the war. I'm sure there wasn't an intentional political voice to it (both he and his contemporary C.S. Lewis seemed more interested in messages than agenda), but...well, anyway, if I'm wrong then it wouldn't be counted as a first by any stretch =p

Amiton.

I think this might become my signature...if I ever decide to start having a signature.

NERVOUSPETE

Thursday, February 23, 2006 11:53 PM

Rather than point at things and say, "that is conservative," and "that is liberal," I think we should define what those words mean first.

Such words have many different meanings depending on those who hear them and those who speak them. What appears to be happening currently (which is utterly terrifying to me) is that the words are being 'pruned' of meaning by all political sides and especially such sources as CNN and Fox, to have very nebulous but emotional meanings.

Conservative = willing to fight for what you believe in and to look to the past as a fine example/neo-con arrogance determined to drown out dissent and endorse conformity with thought-police and railroad us into a corporate oligarchical state.

Liberalism = constant questioning of perceived notions and the desire to change the system for a more inclusive better and allow more freedom of expression while remaining critical of authority/bleeding heart traitrous apologists who prefer to dither, accuse wantonly and flip-flop while the country falls apart around them.

The above aren't those definitions. They are finer shades and some have good traits and some have bad - but for humanity the sooner we stop labelling people and ideas, dismissing them as being part of some great opposition, and instead actually listen to proposals, grievences and warnings, then the frakking better.

Firefly and Serenity aren't conservative. They aren't liberal. They are completely human and true, however.

They do teach me to make a stand even if it offends, they do teach me to be suspicious of the motives of government and corporation, they do tell me that there will always be a price, they do say that sometimes you have to tear down your own beliefs and embrace anothers, and sometimes you have to fight to preserve your own.

It is neither pro or anti-Republican, pro or anti-Democrat, why do you think it is so hugely popular all over the world? It has nothing to do with your politics. It has everything to do with how we compromise and make stands and love and hate and fight and make peace.

And how we try not to just LIE DOWN.

I hate this arguement that goes on about it being for the right wing or left wing.

If Orwell were alive today he would give ALL the US media a good slapping though, that I do believe.

"If you can keep your head whilst others... eurgh! Ack! I've spilt my ink! Ugh! Ink on my trousers! Agh! Ink on my shirt! My only hope! The window! Aieeeeee!" (Falls to death)
- Jonathan Nash

DINKY

Friday, February 24, 2006 3:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Dinky:
Umm I don't know if anyone has pointed this out in the thread yet (haven't read the replies yet, I'm lazy).... But I think Joss Whedon is Liberal himself...

He's said himself he think's guns are 'disgusting'. Conservatives love guns... I know... I'm a conservative... We just bought two more guns today... We're about half way to having 40 guns in this house.... Not me though I'm only 16 :P. My Dad's guns is what I mean.

And I just read a couple and SimonWho... Believe me... Only the liberals applauded... No Conservative would applaud to insulting George W Bush, errr when it comes to 99% of the stuff he does anyway.

"Th3re !s n0 spo0Ne." -The Matricks

Well, SOME conservatives love guns. I'm a conservative, and I don't own a single gun (as far as you know ) Nor do I subscribe to any gun magazines, or belong to any gun clubs. I don't even hunt. I have nothing against guns, per se. It's just an object.....

But I do enjoy a playing Halo2 on XBLive, does that count?

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

Nope... Just means you have bad taste in games and game devices. :P

"Th3re !s n0 spo0Ne." -The Matricks

THEPLAGUE

Friday, February 24, 2006 4:03 AM

I think whoever posted before that FF/Serenity are more about "human values" than trying to enshrine any particular political ideology, was spot on.

Some of the characters do seem to have anarchistic/libertarian leanings, whilst others seem to have the exact opposite. At no time, to my knowledge, is there a judgement presented on which of these views is "right".

-------------------------------
Are these our lives? NNNOOOOOO!!!

AURAPTOR

Friday, February 24, 2006 12:12 PM

Quote:
Nope... Just means you have bad taste in games and game devices. :P

You're just jealous :P I understand.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

BREWSKI

Friday, March 17, 2006 5:44 AM

Firefly/Serenity are at it's heart a character-driven piece. Each character essentially symbolizes a type of person you or I might find in daily life. This means that each character may have traits which might be called "conservative, liberal, libertarian, populist." However, overall the tone of any great TV series is decidedly neutral and is probably set that way simply because that's what makes the $$$$.

If you hadn't noticed, there was very little mention of politics in general within Firefly/Serenity. It was all based on a personal level, and perhaps it's that disconnect which is more refreshing to me. I hate Sci-Fi that gets mired in politics too much. politics

And if anything, the Alliance could most closely be related to Facism or Utopianism than any type of government philosophy we see here today.

______________________________________________________
"He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man and gave him what for.
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton the man they call Jayne!

http://boxofficebrewery.com

BREWSKI

Friday, March 17, 2006 5:44 AM

Firefly/Serenity are at it's heart a character-driven piece. Each character essentially symbolizes a type of person you or I might find in daily life. This means that each character may have traits which might be called "conservative, liberal, libertarian, populist." However, overall the tone of any great TV series is decidedly neutral and is probably set that way simply because that's what makes the $$$$.

If you hadn't noticed, there was very little mention of politics in general within Firefly/Serenity. It was all based on a personal level, and perhaps it's that disconnect which is more refreshing to me. I hate Sci-Fi that gets mired in politics too much. politics

And if anything, the Alliance could most closely be related to Facism or Utopianism than any type of government philosophy we see here today.

______________________________________________________
"He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man and gave him what for.
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton the man they call Jayne!

http://boxofficebrewery.com

FREERADICAL42

Friday, March 17, 2006 6:24 AM

This whole discussion's pretty funny.

Part of the point of Firefly's 'verse is that when we left Earth-that-Was, we left behind all the political divisions that we had before, tradding 'em in for new ones.

In that world, we're all just folk now.

"See, morbid and creepifying, I got no problem with, long as she does it quiet-like."

NYTEGAUNT

Sunday, April 9, 2006 6:06 PM

"Keep on walking, preacher man."

ROCKETJOCK

Sunday, April 9, 2006 6:43 PM

I'm a Libertarian, so I tend to see a libertarian message in Firefly, but that's far from the only way to see it.

This all reminds me of a scene from Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle's novel Inferno, a modern-dress retelling of Dante's Divine Comedy; in it a man from modern America is traveling downward across the bolgias, looking for the path to Purgatory that lies at Hell's center. En route, he keeps running into contemporary Americans, and remarks about this to his traveling companions (Benito Musolini and Billy The Kid). Il Duche notes that he's encountered an awful lot of Italians on his own journeys. Billy responds "A man tends to notice his own kind."

As it is in Hell, so it is in the 'verse.

"You can't enslave a free man. The most you can do is kill him." -- Robert A. Heinlein

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Wednesday, April 12, 2006 7:38 PM

Sorry,

Lord of the Rings was written during WW11 and PUBLISHED in the 50's.

Nathan doesn't know it yet, but I am his one true love! Is that weird?
(he will believe, he will believe)

ARABIKUM

Thursday, April 13, 2006 7:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Sorry,

Lord of the Rings was written during WW11 and PUBLISHED in the 50's.

Nathan doesn't know it yet, but I am his one true love! Is that weird?
(he will believe, he will believe)

WOW. World War 11 !! I have to get back to my Cryo-Chamber. Too early...

A.

"Oh Dragonbreth! Gilthorpial!" he yodeled, waving his cleaver around like a madman. He lunged at the nearest wraith with his unwieldly sword. "Banzai!" he screamed. "No quarter asked or given! Dam* the torpedoes" Taking a vicious swipe, Stomper missed his mark by a good yard and tripped on his scabbard.

ARABIKUM

Thursday, April 13, 2006 8:37 AM

I wish my English would be better, but I try anyway. I believe the Western-Genre itself is pretty pretty conservative. Which is precisely the reason, why Joss chose that genre to be a vital part of Firefly. The Alliance is either a dictatorship or on a good way, to become one (not sure about that), which is the ultimate extreme of conservatism. A dictatorship means to me, that individuality doesn´t exist anymore. Therefore I believe the crew IS liberal or stands for liberal values, because they are fully individual. Jayne is Mercenary who´s working for those, who pay best. Not a conservative value. Kaylee is behind every man not engaged in a relationship. Not a conservative value. Inara? Well, you know yourself. And so on.

Joss is definitely not a conservative. I remember him saying, he wants to take G.W.B. on an island for having something to eat. So, why did he chose this western-setting?! Because the result of intelligently hurting those unwritten genre-laws is FUN. You EXPECT Western to be conservative. If it´s not, you´re puzzled and if done right, you gain some very very cool moments. Which Firefly has, of course.

The best way to critizise something is to make fun of those things, that are associated with it. That´s my understanding. What is so great about firefly is, that other people have another view of what it´s about. Isn´t that great?!

A.

"Oh Dragonbreth! Gilthorpial!" he yodeled, waving his cleaver around like a madman. He lunged at the nearest wraith with his unwieldly sword. "Banzai!" he screamed. "No quarter asked or given! Dam* the torpedoes" Taking a vicious swipe, Stomper missed his mark by a good yard and tripped on his scabbard.

CITIZEN

Thursday, April 13, 2006 9:03 AM

You obviously haven't seen many Hollywood films, they often have a more liberal bias.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

CITIZEN

Thursday, April 13, 2006 9:03 AM

PriateNews's Commie-Nazi-Jews made me double post (they really are responcible for everything).

SIXSHOOTER

Thursday, April 13, 2006 9:06 AM

Everyone likes to see the hero win.
Makes us feel good.
In this big bad world of ours, more often then not, it’s the bad guys who have the last laugh.

I mean, hell, it's always been that way.

My grandpa owned a theater back in the 50's and 60's and he once told me the only sure-fire way to pack out the joint was a John Wayne movie.

A man who's character always stood for what was right and never shot a man in the back.

FLETCH2

Thursday, April 13, 2006 9:25 AM

It's about a man stripped to his core and bloody who somehow finds the strength to pull himself to his feet, build a family around him and strives to protect it.

Anyone who doesnt hope they have that strength in themselves irrespective of their politics somehow ceased to be human. What makes Mal compelling isn't so much what he believes but that after all he's been through he can still believe in anything at all.

Grace under pressure.

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Thursday, April 20, 2006 7:02 PM

That would be between 1937 and 1945.

One day.
One mission.
One army of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave!

Nathan doesn't know it yet, but I am his one true love! Is that weird?
(he will believe, he will believe)

JMB9039

Thursday, April 20, 2006 7:23 PM

It is interesting how Conservativism and Republicanism have become interchangeable and yet aren't always. As an independent left-leaner.. cause I don't know what else to call myself, I must say I disagree that Serenity is conservative.

Libertarian to an extend - classic state right democrat, maybe - republican, no way - conservative, possibly.

Funny that Joss had a country-wide phone in conference to try and get Kerry elected and Bush oustered.

Joss wrote a complex script - the charecters (for the most part) were quite liberal, their idea of government was small, non-intrusive (very libertarian). Some of their philosophies on government could be conservative - and that's not a bad thing - some conservative ideas a great. Too bad the republican party doesn't think so...

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Thursday, April 20, 2006 7:27 PM

JMB

Will you marry me?

One day.
One mission.
One army of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave!

Nathan doesn't know it yet, but I am his one true love! Is that weird?
(he will believe, he will believe)

MISBEHAVING

Thursday, April 20, 2006 7:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Arabikum:
I wish my English would be better, but I try anyway. I believe the Western-Genre itself is pretty pretty conservative.

Normally I stay the heck away from threads with this kind of title -- my reaction is almost always something like "eww, you got your politics all over my fandom. Clean it up!" Some madness possessed me to click this.

Except... this quote, above, I found interesting, mainly in light of having just finished the very best example of a thoughtful Western in literature, The Ox-Bow Incident by William Van Tilburg Clark.

This book is not about "left or right" but it is very much "right or wrong" and how hard it is to choose between them and how much harder it is to act on what you know is right.

For those that don't know the story, it's about a lynching of a suspected rustler and murderer. A small western town, having already had more incidents of rustling than they like, hears of the murder of a prominent rancher's longtime hand, a man they all know, along with the theft of forty head of cattle, and they form a mob to go chase down and hang the killers.

A local shopkeeper, Davies, is profoundly disturbed by the populace's fervor to hang somebody for the crime, and fears that they will (a) hang an innocent man and (b) trample the rule of law in the process. Davies cares deeply about the rule of law and delivers a stirring speech early in the book, planting doubts in the heart of the narrator. Davies convinces him to go get the sheriff and judge to try to stop the mob -- but the sheriff is thirty miles away and the deputy is no better than the leaders of the mob, and Davies' plan backfires when the deputy grants the cloak of authority to the mob. Davies goes with the mob, trying all the while to convince them to bring whoever they find back to town and give them a fair trial.

Davies' opposite number, Tetley, is a former Confederate cavalry officer. Tetley, a real hardcase and definitely a 'man of action', becomes the leader of the mob to whom almost all the men defer. Bad weather - a snowstorm - sets in on the mountain pass. A passing stagecoach tells the mob of seeing a party of three men camped at a fire up the trail, but the mob also knows of a little valley, the Ox-Bow, just off the pass where a cattle drive could take shelter for the night. In the Ox-Bow three men are found - a young man, Martin, who claims to have just moved to the area, a crazy old man and a Mexican who claims not to know English, both of whom work for Martin. The missing cattle are found with them, and Martin claims to have bought them from the rancher, but can't produce a bill of sale. The Mexican turns out to have, without explanation, the gun of the man they believe to have been murdered. Long story short (too late), it all adds up to a lynching, and a fascinating contest of wills between Tetley and Davies for the hearts and minds of the men in the mob, and Tetley wins - the men hang at sunrise.

When the mob comes back into town, they discover that the men they hanged were telling the truth, and that the man they believed dead was very much alive, and that the forty head of cattle were in fact sold by the rancher.

Davies, in a heart-wrenching scene in a room over the saloon, pours out his heart to the narrator and says that he could have, would have, should have stopped Tetley because he knew in their hearts that most of the men were just looking for an excuse not to follow him because they had doubts, but failed at the last because he lacked the courage to act. It would have taken a gun, he said, but at the very last what I felt in my heart was that I was glad that I didn't have one. And so, the angry mob was allowed to kill innocent people.

The Ox-Bow Incident was published in 1940. When asked, late in his life, what he meant to symbolize, Clark said that many people naturally draw the comparison with Nazism and the way it was allowed to grow unchecked and without protest. But what he really intended, he said,

JMB9039

Friday, April 21, 2006 2:03 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

The offer is tempting but I'm afraid my fiance might not approve... actually she might just

LOL

Viva La Firefly!

ORPHEUS

Friday, April 21, 2006 2:05 PM

Quote:
The success of Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ, and of films like Lord of the Rings, Serenity

Serenity a success? Since when? I don't seem to recall it doing Lord of the Rings numbers.

____________________
"Were there monkeys? Some terrifying space monkeys maybe got loose?"

SPACEPIRATEQUEEN

Saturday, April 22, 2006 4:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by UnregisteredCompanion:
The whole "Lets meddle and make people better against their will"...well, that reminds me of some of my liberal associates.

Funny, that reminds me of conservativism, with the whole don't-be-gay-or-have-premarital-sex-etc. dealies. For me liberalism means that I'm quite cool with people being however they like and doing whatever they please, so long as they don't (noncensensually) hurt anyone else.

While I don't think Firefly or Serenity have definite political messages, people are obviously reading things in. If anything, I think it points out the thin line between large-scale socialism and fascism.

As for Lord of the Rings...caw. Religious influences, sure, but the story was heavily based on Norse mythology and intended to provide England with the mythology Tolkien believed had been stolen by William the Bastard/Conquerer. NOT political.

__________________
Wife soup!

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Tuesday, April 25, 2006 12:45 AM

Oh no Mr bashing! Tell her I was just swayed by your right speakin' and meant no disrepect!

One day.
One mission.
One army of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave!

Nathan doesn't know it yet, but I am his one true love! Is that weird?
(he will believe, he will believe)

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Tuesday, April 25, 2006 12:48 AM

Hear! Hear!

So happy to be surrounded by some many erudite individuals!

One day.
One mission.
One army of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave!

Nathan doesn't know it yet, but I am his one true love! Is that weird?
(he will believe, he will believe)

MALSHEART

Sunday, April 30, 2006 11:44 AM

Erudite cousins, I am a UK newbie, and am pleased to see this thread. Joss wove a rich cloth for us with Firefly - which is exactly why I love it. Maybe LOTR or Serenity aren't political, but everything has a relationship with morality. Mal, Zoe and crew have a code, as do each of us as fans and as individuals...Firefly can appeal to all of us, because nothing is ever simple in life, or on board that beautiful ship.
I wish you all a peaceful journey through your personal 'verse.

there was no end...

YT

Tuesday, May 30, 2006 4:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by sixshooter:
My grandpa owned a theater back in the 50's and 60's and he once told me the only sure-fire way to pack out the joint was a John Wayne movie.

A man who's character always stood for what was right and never shot a man in the back.

In the most charitable interpretation, he shot Liberty Valance in the side, when Liberty wasn't looking at him.

Keep the Shiny Side Up . . .

MSG

Tuesday, May 30, 2006 3:33 PM

Nicely said Nervous Pete!
I think it's odd that we all look for a definative political statement in a show/movie about the variety and differences in us all. All the people on Serenity have different upbringings, values, and beliefs and they all seem to find a way to make those work together ( somewhat shakily) for the common good. If anything, this is in direct opposition to politicians of all kinds! Politicians are all the same. Let's here it for a nice constitutional monarchy ;)

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, May 30, 2006 3:45 PM

This whole left-right thing makes me sleepy.
Like in a fight, should I hit my opponent with my left or my right?
I guess that depends how I'm positioned at the moment.

Mal-like Chrisisall

PAGANPAUL

Wednesday, May 31, 2006 3:00 PM

Is Firefly/Serenity right wing, left wing, liberal, conservative, republican, democrat, socialist, communist, etc? I think Joss answered that question himself:

"A lot of people are asking me, you know, what exactly is Firefly? It's a TV show you morons!" - Joss Whedon

You people need to get a life!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

流口水的婊子和猴子的笨儿子。
Liou coe shway duh biao-tze huh hoe-tze duh bun ur-tze.
"Stupid son of a drooling whore and a monkey."

NUCKLES87

Friday, June 9, 2006 7:31 AM

You know, upon re-reading this article...I fail to see how Lord of the Rings and Passion of Christ are conservative. Especially LotR. I mean, I know convservatives like to think they are the god fearing group and the liberals are godless heathens, but...it was a religous film, not a political film.

Lord of the Rings...I have no idea how that can be considered conservative leaning. Or political leaning at all.

Team America...never saw it. But I thought it was making fun of America in general?

Serenity is a mix of many political views, that clash and conflict. All nine of our heroes (and villains) have their political views, both liberal and conservative.

So...yeah. The conservatives must be real desperate for a movie to call their own that actually did well...

PS: Apologies if I offended anyone. This article irritates me a little, so I vented a little. I used a lot of sarcasm/unserious comments in this that I did not make obvious. I'm not debating anything I said in this either.