any christians here in this entire site please stand up

POSTED BY: leelu7777
UPDATED: Monday, September 22, 2025 14:45
VIEWED: 32405
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LEELU7777

Monday, March 6, 2006 7:30 AM

after hearing the auful remarks in the atheist post I was beginning to belive that there a no christians in this site.as to some of your posts you said that there is no proof well you arent looking hard enough have anyone ever heard of the ALPHA insiatute they have scientists that can prove in detail that God exists. It tore my heart out to hear so many lost souls on this site. if anyone has any Q's I'm sure you can find answers from alpha or
the 700 club website just look for Bring it on in the 700 club banner.

i'm in the world not of it.

SIGMANUNKI

Monday, March 6, 2006 7:50 AM

1) Ok, you're new so I don't blame you for not knowing. But, if you look through the archives, you'll find a tonne of threads that talk about FF from a Christian perspective.

2) No they certainly cannot prove the existance of god in detail. If that were true, then we would all have been believers a long time ago.

3) Well there is no 3. But, I couldn't just have 2 in a numerated list now could I?

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

RIVER6213

Monday, March 6, 2006 8:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by leelu7777:
after hearing the auful remarks in the atheist post I was beginning to belive that there a no christians in this site.as to some of your posts you said that there is no proof well you arent looking hard enough have anyone ever heard of the ALPHA insiatute they have scientists that can prove in detail that God exists. It tore my heart out to hear so many lost souls on this site. if anyone has any Q's I'm sure you can find answers from alpha or
the 700 club website just look for Bring it on in the 700 club banner.

i'm in the world not of it.

Didnt you get the memo? God hates you. God let's everyone down...everyone..including you. So shut up and sit down ans slit your wrist with the best of us.

LEELU7777

Monday, March 6, 2006 8:07 AM

yes there is proof its just people dont want to belive they want to be incontrol of everything instead of beliving in a higher being that loves us more that we can bear to the point of death. so they choose no to pay attenion or see that hes all around us and yes I know I sound crazy but this must be said.

I'm in the world not of it

SIGMANUNKI

Monday, March 6, 2006 8:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Didnt you get the memo? God hates you. God let's everyone down...everyone..including you. So shut up and sit down ans slit your wrist with the best of us.

Well, that's a hell of a thing to say.

What was your point again?

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

SIGMANUNKI

Monday, March 6, 2006 8:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by leelu7777:
yes there is proof its just people dont want to belive they want to be incontrol of everything instead of beliving in a higher being that loves us more that we can bear to the point of death. so they choose no to pay attenion or see that hes all around us and yes I know I sound crazy but this must be said.

Actually the proof that you seem to be pointing to requires belief before it makes sense. The problem with this is that that is no proof at all.

Proof cannot be caste aside. It is proof after all.

But, instead of just stating things without anything to back up your claims (point of fact, this really irritates me), why not provide said proof?

If it really is proof, then we'll all be believers just by reading this thread. And no, I'm not being sarcastic. That is a logical conclusion.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

LEELU7777

Monday, March 6, 2006 8:34 AM

fine live in darkness live in emptiness and die go to a place where you will have every disease and every mental sickness ever created because a misconception. I dont know what happened to you to get that idea but he will never let you down it just takes some time for every thing to take place. he lived for you he died for you and this is how you repay him he died because the devil took the keys of heaven so no one could enter he had a chance to flee the garden of olives and leave the people that cursed him and let you burn he could have had a long and furfilled life but no he was beaten broken and nailed at a tree his children spit on him and he knew it would happen he could of shunned them left them to suffer in etrenal darkness but no he forgave the ones that cursed him and you say he dosent care ha as a christian I know him speak to him and feel his love and his peace and then to hear the words of hate twards him to think people would rather chose emptyness and pain over peace and true everlasting love because of past wrong doings fine you have a choice not mine who am I to tell you it your life

i'm in the world not of it

SIGMANUNKI

Monday, March 6, 2006 8:54 AM

@Leelu7777:
Ok, what just happened?

You said in your first post that you'd answer questions. I asked for the proof that you keep refering to, I mentioned what I thought it was and my opinion of those specific "arguments" so you wouldn't answer with any of that. So, we wouldn't waste our time.

And instead of answering in a coherent fashion with the requested information, I get a speach about how I'm going to burn?

I'm sorry for asking this, but it has to be asked. Are you even willing to discuss this? Or are you just going to answer every question with "You are going to go to hell!" if we don't go along with what you say imediately?

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

HAZE

Monday, March 6, 2006 11:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by leelu7777:
fine live in darkness live in emptiness and die go to a place where you will have every disease and every mental sickness ever created because a misconception. I dont know what happened to you to get that idea but he will never let you down it just takes some time for every thing to take place. he lived for you he died for you and this is how you repay him he died because the devil took the keys of heaven so no one could enter he had a chance to flee the garden of olives and leave the people that cursed him and let you burn he could have had a long and furfilled life but no he was beaten broken and nailed at a tree his children spit on him and he knew it would happen he could of shunned them left them to suffer in etrenal darkness but no he forgave the ones that cursed him and you say he dosent care ha as a christian I know him speak to him and feel his love and his peace and then to hear the words of hate twards him to think people would rather chose emptyness and pain over peace and true everlasting love because of past wrong doings fine you have a choice not mine who am I to tell you it your life

i'm in the world not of it

DON’T YOU EVER TALK ABOUT METAL ILLNESS AS IF IT’S A CURSE SENT BY GOD! YOU HAVE NO IDEA!

You have no idea at all. You cant unless you have been there.We are not a totem of fear to be welded, we are people.

If you are of the belief God is sending people to hell for not worshiping him properly then I will leave you to bask in you elitism.

Good day.

--------------------------------------------------
Who do you suppose is in there?

ALGUS

Monday, March 6, 2006 12:02 PM

All the interesting people will be in Hell anyway: Gandhi, Caesar, Douglas Adams.

Besides, I'd feel too guilty if I made it into Heaven and knew my folks were down below roasting.

---
Where's the KABOOM?! There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom! *sigh* Delays...delays...

DINKY

Monday, March 6, 2006 12:16 PM

Einstein would be in Heaven.

That's one reason why I hate it when people say knowledge replaces faith.

"Th3re !s n0 spo0Ne." -The Matricks

KPO

Monday, March 6, 2006 12:34 PM

Quote:
Leelu7777:
Ok, what just happened?

reckon he/she was replying to that upbeat river gal.

FLETCH2

Monday, March 6, 2006 1:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dinky:
Einstein would be in Heaven.

That's one reason why I hate it when people say knowledge replaces faith.

"Th3re !s n0 spo0Ne." -The Matricks

Not if some folks are to be believed. If you are a none Christian you don't get in. Einstein was Jewish.

GRIZWALD

Monday, March 6, 2006 2:13 PM

Eek! May I say that

1. I am a Christian.
2. I attempt to be grammatical at all times.
3. I try not to be defensive about my faith.

I would prefer not to be categorized with the ungrammatically defensive faction of Christianity evidenced above.

JUGGLESGEESE

Monday, March 6, 2006 2:20 PM

I am a Christian, and I am proud of it.

DINKY

Monday, March 6, 2006 2:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Quote:
Originally posted by Dinky:
Einstein would be in Heaven.

That's one reason why I hate it when people say knowledge replaces faith.

"Th3re !s n0 spo0Ne." -The Matricks

Not if some folks are to be believed. If you are a none Christian you don't get in. Einstein was Jewish.

And he believed in God....

"Th3re !s n0 spo0Ne." -The Matricks

FLETCH2

Monday, March 6, 2006 2:57 PM

Not good enough Dinky.

Sorry

But cheer up, he'll have lots of company, some Protestants don't think Catholics will be let in and visa versa and I suspect that once "11th day Baptists" split off from "10th day Baptists" they'll believe all the 10th day folks they left behind will burn too.

And you thought choosing the right preschool for your kids was tough....

DINKY

Monday, March 6, 2006 3:03 PM

Err what I meant by he would be in heaven is by HIS beliefs.

It was too early in the morning when I typed that. I completely forgot what I said.

"Th3re !s n0 spo0Ne." -The Matricks

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Monday, March 6, 2006 3:13 PM

Well, I have it on good authority from my Seventh Day Adventist and Jehovah’s Witness friends that just shy of 200,000 of us are actually making it to heaven. This puts the best odds at something like one in 60,000 that any one us will make it, and judging from my horrible luck with lotteries I’m not expecting much.

Actually, I’m hoping the Roman Catholics are right, because I could really use some time in Purgatory. I think it would do me some good. Get away from it all to a place where things aren’t really all that bad, though not really all that good. Just kind of so-so, like living in Sweden.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CARTOON

Monday, March 6, 2006 3:22 PM

Hey, Leelu. You're not alone. I'm a believer, as well.

One bit of suggestion -- you'll never convince anyone to believe who doesn't want to believe. Present the truth of the gospel in a heartfelt manner, but don't become defensive if people reject it. People have been rejecting it from the dawn of time, and it would be presumptuous on our parts to think we can present it any better than even God's own son (who was rejected, too).

A second suggestion is learn who you need to ignore. If you read and respond to every post by everyone in here, you'll go crazy and more likely than not, be wasting your time and effort which could better be spent elsewhere. As I'm sure you already know, we're obligated to declare the gospel -- but, if it's rejected, the Lord instructed us to move on.

Thirdly, I never bothered going into the atheist thread because I'm not an atheist and it's not my place to interefere with them. Unfortunately, they don't feel the need to reciprocate, and seem to jump at the chance to stir up a rucuss in Christian threads. This was a lesson I learned all too well when I first went into Christian chat rooms years ago. I won't do so anymore, because (unfortunately) they are generally overrun by nonbelievers who just want to offend believers.

Oh. And we can also pray for those who attack us because of our beliefs.

(Not an easy thing to do, but required of us, nonetheless).

CITIZEN

Monday, March 6, 2006 3:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cartoon:
A second suggestion is learn who you need to ignore.

Leelu:
I suggest you start right here. Cartoon is a nut and an extremist. He's the type that thinks blowing up non believers is a good and just thing, said so on occasion. If he didn't believe what he said he'd merely be a Troll, unfortunately he really does believe the sh*t that he taps out on his keyboard. I suggest you stay well clear.

All you'll get otherwise are questions on your sexuality and accusations of being an Islamic terrorist. Mark my words.

Stay Shiny.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

SEVENPERCENT

Monday, March 6, 2006 4:24 PM

You know, it's funny; I wasn't going to post in this thread after reading it a bit (especially after the person who started it went off on what can only be an LSD inspired rant consigning Sig to the depths of hell), but I changed my mind. I'm a Christian, and by God, I have something to say.

I always wonder (especially in the neocon evangelical era) what happened to the Christianity I grew up with. I can rememner hearing things like "turn the other cheek," and "beating swords to plowshares," and sacrificing ourselves to serve others. I remember "hate the sin, not the sinner," and "be not like the hypocrites that pray in the streets." I remember the Resurrection was about hope and salvation.

Now look at what we have. We bomb people in the name of God (don't think we do? Our fearless leader preaches that he follows God's direction). We torture, and think that it's okay to live in fear. We have protestors that show up waving signs that say "God hates fags." God hates? Since when? Last time I checked, Jesus was about free love and forgiveness. We have people in Missouri trying to create state sponsored religion, and people screaming on television about how good a worshipper they are. Now, people are waiting for the second coming not with hope, but with an attitude of "watch me go to Heaven in the rapture, all you corrupted souls, as I laugh while you suffer." What kind of attitude is that?

I'm sorry, but Christians have become decidedly un-Christian as of late, including the thread's OP, who ranted about someone going to hell. The fact that you praised the 700 club, whose leader (isn't that Pat Robertson?) called for an assassination of a Supreme Court judge and the Venezuelan President, makes me shudder in incredulity.

Sorry, but as the so-called "evangelicals" have taken control, I've shifted farther and farther left go get away from them. I wonder what Jesus would have done - but I doubt it would be to kill or hate anyone.

7%

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

RAM

Monday, March 6, 2006 5:36 PM

Some sci fi programs support the concept of God and faith while others don't. You just have to turn a blind eye to those that depict incorrect information if you want to continue to enjoy the brilliance brought forth in so many sci fi programs.
Those who are atheistic in nature and also feel a need to be "in control" of there own destiny don't realise that god does offer that(control), yet he already knows your response. God exists outside of time (What a concept!, true sci fi fans understand this this concept!). He sees life as a parade, only he sees the beginning and the end at the same time. He touches those who ask for help or need guidance in ways to maximize the number of souls he can save at the end of (our)time. You ARE in control, and God DOES answer (sometimes yes and sometimes no) and he already knows your response because he is OUTSIDE OF TIME and already sees your response.
He's waiting for those who are lost to start looking. People who say they don't see God in their life, aren't looking. I lost a son a few years back of which I was devistated. I felt God had let me down. But looking back to the year leading up to that moment in time, I had realized God was already at work preparing me for the loss of my son. I can't give you a list of it all, but I see his hand in my life.
Science also has proven more than athiests wish to admit. If they were to study, then combine science and mathmatics (basically Microbiology(DNA), Physics,Quantum Physics and Statistical Mathmatics) they would discover something startling.
RAM the firefly fan.

HAZE

Monday, March 6, 2006 5:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
You know, it's funny; I wasn't going to post in this thread after reading it a bit (especially after the person who started it went off on what can only be an LSD inspired rant consigning Sig to the depths of hell), but I changed my mind. I'm a Christian, and by God, I have something to say.

I always wonder (especially in the neocon evangelical era) what happened to the Christianity I grew up with. I can rememner hearing things like "turn the other cheek," and "beating swords to plowshares," and sacrificing ourselves to serve others. I remember "hate the sin, not the sinner," and "be not like the hypocrites that pray in the streets." I remember the Resurrection was about hope and salvation.

Now look at what we have. We bomb people in the name of God (don't think we do? Our fearless leader preaches that he follows God's direction). We torture, and think that it's okay to live in fear. We have protestors that show up waving signs that say "God hates fags." God hates? Since when? Last time I checked, Jesus was about free love and forgiveness. We have people in Missouri trying to create state sponsored religion, and people screaming on television about how good a worshipper they are. Now, people are waiting for the second coming not with hope, but with an attitude of "watch me go to Heaven in the rapture, all you corrupted souls, as I laugh while you suffer." What kind of attitude is that?

I'm sorry, but Christians have become decidedly un-Christian as of late, including the thread's OP, who ranted about someone going to hell. The fact that you praised the 700 club, whose leader (isn't that Pat Robertson?) called for an assassination of a Supreme Court judge and the Venezuelan President, makes me shudder in incredulity.

Sorry, but as the so-called "evangelicals" have taken control, I've shifted farther and farther left go get away from them. I wonder what Jesus would have done - but I doubt it would be to kill or hate anyone.

7%

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.

As I said in the atheism tread, God becomes what the men who use his name want him to be. They can flick true the book find a line that supports there beliefs and prejudices and proclaim that God hates what they hate.

As I said before the fault is not with God the fault is with man.

--------------------------------------------------
Who do you suppose is in there?

NNY

Monday, March 6, 2006 6:05 PM

I am not a christian. I will get that out right now. I have no problem with christianity or it's followers, but I have chosen a different path. I have several friends that are Christians, and we, on a regular basis, have "debates" with the understanding that we are not attempting to convert one another, but merely come to a better understanding of the others viewpoint. I find it hard to believe that there isn't a higher force, and as such, I am a very spiritual man. What I don't understand, however, is why all this intolerance runs rampant. It was mentioned, in essence, by the originator of this thread that non believers will burn. It was mentioned that there was proof. No.. no there isn't. Quantum physics, as mentioned by another member of this thread, bears proof. No, again, it doesn't. Through quantum physics, science does come closer to a union with faith, but it does not prove christianity, nor does it prove any other faith. It merely proves that there is more to this world than any of us can truly understand. That is the beauty of Quantum Physics, every answer is really 3 more questions. There will be no winner to this argument of faith, for the questions brought forth by these aspects of our lives will only be answered in our deaths, when we pass on to whatever awaits us on the other side. Science cannot prove faith, never has been able to, never will be able to. To live without having to ask ourselves these questions of our respective faiths would really nullify the point, wouldn't it? Everyone is going to believe what they want to believe and it is in no way our responsibility, or even our right, to tell people they are wrong about what they believe in. Now, you can look at my post and be angered by it, but all I ask is before you send a response telling me I am going to burn in hell, is that you ask yourself what use there would be in saying that. Accept thy brother despite his faults, as they say.

The height of arrogance is the height of creating GOD in one's own image.

GAMMARAYGIRL

Monday, March 6, 2006 6:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ram:
Some
Science also has proven more than athiests wish to admit. If they were to study, then combine science and mathmatics (basically Microbiology(DNA), Physics,Quantum Physics and Statistical Mathmatics) they would discover something startling.
RAM the firefly fan.

I have been desperately trying not to comment on this thread, but I just can't help myself. I promise to be good. The statistical mechanics and god talk reminded me of a dorky joke. It's not meant to offend, just offer a little funny.

Thermodynamic Question: Is Hell Exothermic or Endothermic?

If you don't know the answer, then please read the following response. Dr.Schambaugh, of the Oklahoma School of Chemical Engineering, is known for asking questions such as "why do airplanes fly?" on his final exams. His one and only final exam question in May 1997 for his Momentum, Heat and Mass Transfer II course was "Is Hell exothermic or endothermic? Support your answer with proof."

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following:

First, we postulate that if souls exist, then they must have some mass. If they do, then a mole of souls can also have a mass. So, at what rate are souls moving into Hell and at what rate are souls leaving? I think we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for souls entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, then you will go to Hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and souls go to Hell.

With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change in volume in Hell. Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the ratio of the mass of souls and volume needs to remain constant.

Two options exist:

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.

or,

2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until all Hell freezes over.

So which is it? If we accept the quote given to me by Theresa Manyan during Freshman year, "that it will be a cold night in Hell before I sleep with you," and take into account that I have still not succeeded in having sexual relations with Theresa, then Option 2 cannot be true.

Thus, hell is exothermic.

The student got the only A in the course.

MATTCOZ

Monday, March 6, 2006 6:14 PM

I'm a Chistian, but I don't believe that I should be confined to the rules of any man-made religion. I go to a Catholic church because that is how I was brought up, but it is the core belief that is the important thing. Human beings are flawed creatures, as long as you believe in something and live a good life, everything will be ok. As Shepherd says "I don't care what you believe in, just believe in it."

OMEGADARK

Monday, March 6, 2006 6:39 PM

I'm a Christian....

I have to say, I am sure some of those who are preaching 'salvation through my way or the highway" will be quite suprised to see who is in heaven and who is not....

Seems everyone forgets that love has no biased...that rain falls on the wicked also...so pride is the sin one falls into when they say,

"you are saved ONLY IF...blah blah blah" If you know this for a fact, well then Hi God! Where have you been all these years?

-OD

Relax...there's still tomorrow

RAM

Monday, March 6, 2006 6:57 PM

OK i'll admit... if there is one thing that could be noted as poor choice of words, it was using the word "prove" or versions thereof. But there is information (if looked at closely) that could help show the probability of lifes existance with or without the involvement of a higher being. Attach what ever religeon you chose to believe in after that notion.
I just happen to chose Christian. We are after all free to chose.
Also in reference to the person behind the exothermal hell; I had seen that before and found it quite humours and smart. I haven't quite determined whether it's creative genious or creative fiction. (I'm leaning fiction on this one).

I am human and flawed as well. I was just looking to give some help to those who still are confused as to the meaning of life. (No... I'm not making reference to "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy").

The real question I have here is; What is the latest word on Firefly/Serenity? This stuff is too good to let go.

STORYMARK

Monday, March 6, 2006 7:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
I never bothered going into the atheist thread because I'm not an atheist and it's not my place to interefere with them. Unfortunately, they don't feel the need to reciprocate, and seem to jump at the chance to stir up a rucuss in Christian threads. This was a lesson I learned all too well when I first went into Christian chat rooms years ago. I won't do so anymore, because (unfortunately) they are generally overrun by nonbelievers who just want to offend believers.

If you had gone into the Atheist thread, you would have seen that there were plenty of "believers" trying to force their faith, uninvited. The certainly seemed to be causing a "ruccus".

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

HERO

Monday, March 6, 2006 7:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I asked for the proof that you keep refering to,

I wanted to say something about the "proof" of God or lack of God and such and so on.

In 1990 I travelled to England. Up until the moment the plane landed and I got out, England's existance was a matter of faith. Sure I'd heard about it, read about it, met people who'd 'been there', seen picture of 'England' and such. Now as I sit here having experianced it, I can testify that England does exist, but I can't prove it...

God is pretty much the same way. Not that God is England or anything, but you get the idea. Although I did visit France as well and I'm fairly certain that France is in fact the entrance to biblical hell (what with the good food and cool paintings and such).

H

CITIZEN

Monday, March 6, 2006 7:41 PM

Please bear in mind I'm not trying to attack you or anything, these threads have the danger of turning nasty and I'm not in the mood for a flame war ...

Quote:
Originally posted by RAM:
Science also has proven more than athiests wish to admit. If they were to study, then combine science and mathmatics (basically Microbiology(DNA), Physics,Quantum Physics and Statistical Mathmatics) they would discover something startling.

Like? You're going to have to back that one up I'm afraid, I've done what you suggested and I've yet to find a manufactures stamp like "Made in Eden, (C)God. Eden is a trademark of Divine interventions inc."

.

Quote:
The real question I have here is; What is the latest word on Firefly/Serenity? This stuff is too good to let go.

Best luck for that one is one the General Discussions and the like. Here it's mainly musings on the fact that I must be an Islamic terrorist because I don't think Islam and all Muslims are evil sub-human scum and must be burnt, preferably at the stake, Alive.

The other boards here tend to be a bit more chilled than these ones too.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

CITIZEN

Monday, March 6, 2006 7:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
God is pretty much the same way. Not that God is England or anything, but you get the idea. Although I did visit France as well and I'm fairly certain that France is in fact the entrance to biblical hell (what with the good food and cool paintings and such).

Good food? No way was that France H. Not unless you like badly cooked Horse meat and raw mouldy snails...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

JONUS

Monday, March 6, 2006 8:34 PM

I am a Christian, I do believe in God but in my opinion you can't prove with science that God exists. It's all about faith.

I'm a Jedi.
I'm a Ringer.
I'm a BROWNCOAT.

SIGMANUNKI

Monday, March 6, 2006 8:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

I asked for the proof that you keep refering to,

I wanted to say something about the "proof" of God or lack of God and such and so on.

In 1990 I travelled to England. Up until the moment the plane landed and I got out, England's existance was a matter of faith. Sure I'd heard about it, read about it, met people who'd 'been there', seen picture of 'England' and such. Now as I sit here having experianced it, I can testify that England does exist, but I can't prove it...

God is pretty much the same way. Not that God is England or anything, but you get the idea. Although I did visit France as well and I'm fairly certain that France is in fact the entrance to biblical hell (what with the good food and cool paintings and such).

H

Actually, someone could have bought you a ticket and said "Here you go. Go to England." This is provable as you just described a proof.

What I'm looking from this person, isn't necessarily some perfect logic that "proves" god exists. More along the lines of, do this, and it'll show itself, and there will be no doubt.

EDIT: There are many different kinds of proof IRL.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

SIGMANUNKI

Monday, March 6, 2006 8:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
Leelu7777:
Ok, what just happened?

reckon he/she was replying to that upbeat river gal.

Maybe, but I got the notification for both replies.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

SIGMANUNKI

Monday, March 6, 2006 9:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

People have been rejecting it from the dawn of time, and it would be presumptuous on our parts to think we can present it any better than even God's own son (who was rejected, too).

Um, don't you mean for about 2000 year, not "from the dawn of time"? Because Christianity has only been around that long. And that's even if you consider it from the birth of the mythical Jesus. If you count it from the first churches, start counting a little bit later.

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

Unfortunately, they don't feel the need to reciprocate, and seem to jump at the chance to stir up a rucuss in Christian threads.

So, we're all "they" now. Generalize much?

And I do find that this comment is rather hypocritical. Christians start as much in non-Christian threads as non-Christians do in Christian threads.

If you don't do it, then the more power to you (and thanks). Just don't say that it is only a one way thing. Stating that is just profoundly ignorant.

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

Oh. And we can also pray for those who attack us because of our beliefs.

(Not an easy thing to do, but required of us, nonetheless).

Personally, I'd rather you didn't. At least in my case.

IMO, it is common courtesy to ask before doing something of this nature.

I mean, how many times has it happened that someone tries to help someone else, but just makes the situation worse because of there "help."

I believe the quote is something like, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

SIGMANUNKI

Monday, March 6, 2006 9:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ram:

Science also has proven more than athiests wish to admit. If they were to study, then combine science and mathmatics (basically Microbiology(DNA), Physics,Quantum Physics and Statistical Mathmatics) they would discover something startling.
RAM the firefly fan.

Ok, I'm a math major and have studied physics as well. So, I stand a chance at understanding this. Care to give a reference? I'd like to give a gander at this stuff.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

OMEGADARK

Monday, March 6, 2006 10:14 PM

Isn't it funny that a major point of this post is about proof of God to those who think that 'proving' it would actually change anything?

It is amazing to see how many people will stick to their reality despite all the proof of something or not....especially now that people have 'officially' stated their views...

Would any of those who don't believe really become ardent believers? Huh? eh?

Anyone ever read anything from Pirandello?

-OD

SIGMANUNKI

Monday, March 6, 2006 10:53 PM

@OmegaDark:
Actually I haven't. Aside from one of my posts saying cannot instead of have not and another using "us"/"we" or somesuch (tireness if funny sometimes), I haven't stated one way or the other.

I just stated that I want to see the proof. Because, every time one of these threads gets posted, all the "believers" come out and talk about "the proof of god's existance". Yet fail to provide anything besides telling us that this proof exists.

Just stating something doesn't make it true. I want to see the proof. I will not just take someones word for it.

To use a silly example, if I believed something everytime someone told me something was true without requiring proof, I'd believe that the sky was purple and the world was made of puppies.

And quite frankly, every new thread that this happens in, is just more evidence to me that states that there is no proof. After all, if there was proof, and it was so compelling, why wouldn't someone just post it?

And no, that isn't evidence that I don't believe in god. It's just proof that I don't believe that god's existance can be proven. There is a difference. I will continue to believe this until shown otherwise.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

CHRISISALL

Monday, March 6, 2006 11:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Ok, what just happened?

Just an aside FYI, I believe Leelu7777 is the poster formerly known as Ngudu (See: "New fans will suck", in Troll Country).

Sherlock Chrisisall

RIVER6213

Monday, March 6, 2006 11:28 PM

***River6213 has very dark thoughts concerning God and his bot army***

CARTOON

Monday, March 6, 2006 11:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
And no, that isn't evidence that I don't believe in god. It's just proof that I don't believe that god's existance can be proven. There is a difference. I will continue to believe this until shown otherwise.

To a certain point I agree with what you said above -- and I say this as one who does believe.

As a believer, I have no doubt that God will someday prove His existence in a way which cannot be denied -- but not until after we're dead, are facing Him, and it's too late for anyone to change anything.

The Bible says that "without faith it's impossible to please God". I believe that's why He gives us a multitude of things which point toward His existence, but not the sort of thing that most people would embrace as "proof".

He also promises that if we seek Him with all our hearts, He will be found. (He doesn't hide from those who genuinely seek Him on His terms -- truly repentant and needy of His grace.)

Although, I imagine that most people wouldn't believe it even if God walked the earth in human form and did miraculous signs which no human could ever do. Oops. Wait a minute! He did do that, and most people, even faced with these miraculous things done right before their very eyes, still refused to believe.

I'm not talking about people like you or I who have had to hear of these things second hand, removed a few millennia, but the people who were living at the time and saw them as they happened, yet still doubted. Really shows the hardness our stubborn, rebellious human hearts, doesn't it? (And I include myself in that category, as well.)

In summary, I believe there are plenty of indicators throughout creation which point to a sovereign Creator (and also that He's spoken to us through His word, the Bible), but "proof" that would convince a skeptic (or actually any of us apart from His grace)? Probably not in this life.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Monday, March 6, 2006 11:41 PM

A few thoughts:

I’ve not read any posts by Cartoon that ever made me feel like he/she was either a nut or an extremists. Anymore then any of the rest of us.

It is vanity that leads man to defend his or her religion. And vanity that leads him to deny the existence of god.

Is there some reason that human souls must have mass?

Buying a ticket to England is not proof that England exists; only proof that someone sold you a ticket there. I once saw an ad to purchase plots of land on Mars. Not that Mars doesn’t exist, but I’m pretty sure the deeds were meaningless nonetheless.

I want to see proof that god doesn’t exist. I guess we’ll all have to get used to disappointment.

And I don’t think that it is anyone else’s business who I pray for or don’t pray for.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CHRISISALL

Monday, March 6, 2006 11:47 PM

God(s) may or may not exist, but there's one thing I am sure of; The Bible is a work of MAN, not God, and as such deserves all the serious attention that your name suggests, Cartoon.
The historical parts are cool, but the brimstone stinks

Chrisisall

Please note: (Cartoon, do not read this) I have no real ill will towards the Bible, it works for many- just seein' if I can get some flame off of Cartoon...

CITIZEN

Monday, March 6, 2006 11:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’ve not read any posts by Cartoon that ever made me feel like he/she was either a nut or an extremists.

I have. At the very least he's an ignorant arsehole.

Quote:
I want to see proof that god doesn’t exist.

I remember you telling me about burden of proof once being on those making the claim, not the other way around...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

FLETCH2

Monday, March 6, 2006 11:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
A few thoughts:

Is there some reason that human souls must have mass?

It was a physics class (thermo dynamics I think she said.) Wave/particle duality suggests that everything that's real must have mass, even if that mass is almost infinately small. Quanta of energy has mass, the messager particles that make forces work have mass (we suppose) so if a soul is real it has mass.

It's an assumption based on what physics considers real.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 12:08 AM

Actually Photons along with other theoretical Quanta (the Graviton in Quantum Gravity for instance) have zero rest mass. It's also theoretically possible to have a particle with negative or imaginary mass, such as the Tachyon.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 12:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I remember you telling me about burden of proof once being on those making the claim, not the other way around...

Yep.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
It was a physics class (thermo dynamics I think she said.) Wave/particle duality suggests that everything that's real must have mass, even if that mass is almost infinately small. Quanta of energy has mass, the messager particles that make forces work have mass (we suppose) so if a soul is real it has mass.

It's an assumption based on what physics considers real.

I think souls are neutrinos.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SAMEERTIA

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 12:28 AM

You mean the world isn't made up of puppies?
I'm so lost!

But seriously-
Am I a Christian?
I believe that there was a man called Jesus who fought against corruption of the church, and taught lessons of love and forgiveness.

Do I believe that "Whoesoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life"? Not exactly.
I think the words have been taken over the years to mean things that Jesus never said, intended in ways that Jesus never meant.

Christianity has parallels in every other religion in the world, even the Dreamtime of the Australian Aborigine. By looking beyond just what man has written that Christ said, and looking for those parallels, I think we can find the real truth of God/Goddess for ourselves.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps God made me bisexual and gave me chronic asthma to punish me for believing that He has different faces, and that it matters not what face we place to the belief as long as we just believe.

But I don't believe so. I believe that I was given challenges to make me stronger, to remind me that I'm only a human being in this lifetime.

I think if I walk and breathe and take each step with the heart of the Goddess and the intention to do no wrong, but to nurture and care for my fellow humans and for the earth which we have been gifted- If I can do that, then it is not the face that I believed in or the name I gave to it, but the way in which I lived my life that will matter in the end.

So, am I a Christian? Not as such as defined by the Methodist church of my childhood.
Do I believe in Jesus? Absolutely.

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 12:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

but not until after we're dead, are facing Him, and it's too late for anyone to change anything.

I think that that is really the only certainty that anyone will agree with, regardless of what they believe. Namely, we will find out when we die.

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

The Bible says that "without faith it's impossible to please God". I believe that's why He gives us a multitude of things which point toward His existence, but not the sort of thing that most people would embrace as "proof".

The problem with lots of things that point to the existence of anything, is that one day they might be explained by everyday processes. Just look at anything that science can explain. At one point in time, it was all "proof" of the existence of god. Yet now it's just everyday stuff.

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

He also promises that if we seek Him with all our hearts, He will be found. (He doesn't hide from those who genuinely seek Him on His terms -- truly repentant and needy of His grace.)

The problem with the statement "on His terms" is that when we seek, we seek on our own terms, in our own way. So, the only logical conclusion is that only if you believe already (if only subconsciously) you will find "Him." Otherwise, you won't find "Him"; you are damned.

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

Although, I imagine that most people wouldn't believe it even if God walked the earth in human form and did miraculous signs which no human could ever do.

Historical documents show that throughout time, people were around that could do miraculous things that no-one else could do. But, the problem with it, is that we know that it wasn't miraculous at all, but just something that they didn't understand at the time.

I forget who said it, but there is a quote something like, "With any sufficiently advanced technology one can seem like a god."

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

Oops. Wait a minute! He did do that, and most people, even faced with these miraculous things done right before their very eyes, still refused to believe.

Um, well, there is no actual documentation that shows that he did do these things aside from scripture.

Also, considering what I just said above, among the fact that there are many people the question if a historical Jesus even existed, I think that you're going to have to do better than just state that he did these things.

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

Really shows the hardness our stubborn, rebellious human hearts, doesn't it? (And I include myself in that category, as well.)

Assuming that Jesus existed and what the bible said is true, how exactly did everyone back then see him do these things? After all, he only did these things for a few years and everyone walked back then. Thus, this is hardly mass distribution of proof that he was the son of god and everyone should believe.

So, I really don't see how you get to the conclusion that people back then were really suborn because they all saw it. They didn't all see it.

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

In summary, I believe there are plenty of indicators throughout creation which point to a sovereign Creator (and also that He's spoken to us through His word, the Bible), but "proof" that would convince a skeptic (or actually any of us apart from His grace)? Probably not in this life.

Point of fact, the bible was written by men, not god. And even then, the first books of the bible were not written by the people that they are attributed to. They were written by the students of the students of the students of the... of the Apostle.

Basically, play telephone over decades through a lot of people and you get the first books of the bible. Doesn't exactly imply the words of Jesus to me. In fact, they probably are quite different given that we can't get it right when it

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 12:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

It is vanity that leads man to defend his or her religion. And vanity that leads him to deny the existence of god.

Um, how did you get there?

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Buying a ticket to England is not proof that England exists; only proof that someone sold you a ticket there.

I think you missed the point. The point was to use the ticket to see England yourself.

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

And I don’t think that it is anyone else’s business who I pray for or don’t pray for.

It's a respect thing. You should respect the wishes of others. And if they don't want you to do something, then you should respect that and not do it. Especially when it is something that is so very optional like praying for them.

Respect and love for the fellow man. That's in the bible right?

But, what was that about vanity? Do you really think that because you are you that you have the right to do something for people against there wishes?

That's pure hubris.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

CITIZEN

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 12:44 AM

Quote:
"With any sufficiently advanced technology one can seem like a god."

Sounds similar too:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. by Arthur Charles Clark

Or it could be from Star Trek where Jean Luc Picard met the primative Vulcan people and they though he was their God.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 12:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
It's a respect thing. You should respect the wishes of others. And if they don't want you to do something, then you should respect that and not do it. Especially when it is something that is so very optional like praying for them.

Respect and love for the fellow man. That's in the bible right?

But, what was that about vanity? Do you really think that because you are you that you have the right to do something for people against there wishes?

That's pure hubris.

Hubris is telling someone not to practice their religion, simply because you don’t believe in their religion. The Bible says to pray for people as well. If my religion means that I should pray for people, as long as those prayers don’t interfere with your life then why do you get offended if I practice my religion? What makes you believe that I’m disrespectful if I choose not to stop believing the way you claim that I shouldn’t believe? How am I being disrespectful if I choose to not to stop practicing a religion that doesn’t affect you at all, simply because you said I should?

Think about that for a little while and then maybe you’ll understand this:

It is vanity that leads man to defend his or her religion. And vanity that leads him to deny the existence of god.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CARTOON

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 1:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
The problem with the statement "on His terms" is that when we seek, we seek on our own terms, in our own way. So, the only logical conclusion is that only if you believe already (if only subconsciously) you will find "Him." Otherwise, you won't find "Him"; you are damned.

Well, who sets the terms for how one is found? The seeker or the one being sought?

For example, if you were seeking me, you could search for me the way you wanted to, and likely not find me. If you sought me the way I directed you to find me, you'd find me a whole lot easier.

God tells us how to find Him in the Bible. Naturally, if one doesn't believe that the Bible is true (and God's word), following its advice would be kind of pointless.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Um, well, there is no actual documentation that shows that he did do these things aside from scripture.

Exactly.

But, while I wasn't attempting to argue the verity of the scriptures in this thread, I was just pointing out that if one believes the Bible is true (as I do), then it clearly shows that even miraculous signs weren't enough to convince most people -- and not people who heard about the miracles (or reports of the miracles several centuries removed), but people who saw them with their own eyes as they happened.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Assuming that Jesus existed and what the bible said is true, how exactly did everyone back then see him do these things? After all, he only did these things for a few years and everyone walked back then. Thus, this is hardly mass distribution of proof that he was the son of god and everyone should believe.

Yes, but He did them over a relatively small area, and word of mouth apparently spread quickly. If you saw with your own eyes, someone raise a person who'd been dead for three days back to life, wouldn't you tell everyone you knew?

According to the scriptures, Jesus healed massive numbers of people. If there was someone miraculously healing everyone who came to Him (qualifier: "believing"), don't you think word would spread?

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
So, I really don't see how you get to the conclusion that people back then were really suborn because they all saw it. They didn't all see it.

Yes, they didn't all see it. I was referring to those who actually did -- and I'm sure their numbers were significant given just the nature of the healings recorded in scripture (see previous paragraph).

There are other instances in Old Testament of blatant unbelief in the face of clearly miraculous actions from God. Look at the miracles God performed in delivering the Israelities from Egypt, and yet the Bible says that they were hard-hearted and didn't believe. They grumbled and complained and showed unbelief -- which is why all but a handful died in the wilderness and never got into the promised land.

And unlike Jesus's miracles, according to Scripture, all of Israel (and probably Egypt, too) saw God's ten plagues -- and all of Israel saw the parting of the Red Sea, the daily provision of Manna (then quail), the guidance by the pillar of fire/cloud, etc. And still they complained in unbelief.

To me, that says that mankind is a pretty stubborn lot.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Just a question, have you ever read anything by Bishop John Shelby Spong?

No. Haven't heard of him.

OMEGADARK

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 1:56 AM

SigmaNunki

Quote:
just stated that I want to see the proof

I know what you are saying, even times as a believer I have desperately wished for such proof. I will have to say, I do not know of such 'proof'. What makes me 'see' the proof is studying the world. The absurd intricacies of life (ex. the human cell). It amazes me that such things can work so smoothly with out conscious effort(for the most part). Thus, it makes me believe something greater is the maker of such a system. There is proof if you believe it...that's the gift and the problem....

If God truly existed, and he gave us freewill, then he would not expose himself to such a degree that there would be incontrovertible proof that he is around. If so, there would be no need for faith and it would ultimately limit the extent of our own will to choose ( I know I might have made some believers angry with this because I can then see them saying, "What about Jesus..." email me if you like to yell at me...its in the profile)

Quote:
Just stating something doesn't make it true

I have to agree again, just saying it doesn't make it so either...except that the world is made up puppies, that upsets me that you don't believe that...

Does this help the discussion or give proof? Nope, I just agree that it would be great if there was proof AND that those who say there is just say what it is simply and succinctly...

In the end I believe this is just a good and fun intellectual exercise...

-OD

I love cookies and puppies, their delicious

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 2:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by OmegaDark:

If God truly existed, and he gave us freewill, then he would not expose himself to such a degree that there would be incontrovertible proof that he is around.

With human progenitors on this planet it is referred to as absentee fathers or dead-beat dads.

Seriously, why the game?
Or is it all really like in "Constantine"?

Meaningless side note: I've challenged the Devil to serious mortal combat many times. The wuss never even sent a reply. What a dousche.

Somewhat cynical Chrisisall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 2:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Seriously, why the game?
Or is it all really like in "Constantine"?

I hope so. Because that was awesome! Rachel Weisz is one of my favorite actresses. And I sooo want to be John Constantine, dark cynical anti-hero reluctantly fighting evil per god's design, which is why I don’t do crack.

Meaningless response: Devils are so inconsiderate.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 2:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Meaningless response: Devils are so inconsiderate.

INCONSIDERATE?!?!

The only cool devil was Darkness from "Legend", the RL Devil is a PUNK, man, APUNK!!!!!!

Every time he tries to invade my dreams, I do that aware thing, and alter the dream so I can KICK HIS ASS!!!!

And Finn, please, as with most other threads, this is not the place for levity; try to keep it on a little more serious level, huh?

"I hate it when you do that.." Chrisisall, sourse of Weisz/Mummy 2 quotes 24 hours a day...

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 3:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Hubris is telling someone not to practice their religion, simply because you don’t believe in their religion. The Bible says to pray for people as well. If my religion means that I should pray for people, as long as those prayers don’t interfere with your life then why do you get offended if I practice my religion? What makes you believe that I’m disrespectful if I choose not to stop believing the way you claim that I shouldn’t believe? How am I being disrespectful if I choose to not to stop practicing a religion that doesn’t affect you at all, simply because you said I should?

Think about that for a little while and then maybe you’ll understand this:

I find it interesting that you tell me to think about that for a little while when you clearly didn't do the same.

Let's say that your religion is real and praying will actually do something (Quite frankly, if you don't believe that praying will do something, then why are you doing it in the first place?) So, your actions will effect me now won't they?

And I clearly didn't say I wanted to stop you from believing. I just stated that if I don't want you to pray for me that you should respect that and not pray for me.

Remember in FF (Train Job I think), when Inara told Book to pray for Mal. Book said (paraphrase), I don't think that he'd appreciate that. Meaning, it's my religion to do so, but I'm going to respect the wishes of Mal not to do it for him.

This is all I'm saying. Respect other peoples wishes.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 3:18 AM

@Cartoon:
I'm just going to sum up what you've written as you are not arguing from a historical perspective, but using the bible completely. You also seem to think that the bible is the only thing that needs to be argued from as you seem to be ignoring history completely.

I will state explicitly now, that if you only use the bible to prove the bible, I will not continue this conversation. This is called circular logic. You cannot use something to prove something.

You have also failed to give me this proof that everyone keeps talking about.

*sigh*

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 3:26 AM

@OmegaDark:
Well, um, I don't really know what to say. We seemed to have come to a standstill. Not sure where our discussion can go from here.

I'll just say this because, well, this is the first time I've had this discusion with someone and it hasn't exploded. Thanks for keeping a potentially explosive discussion, non-explosive.

I look forward to further conversations

(Hopefully the feelings are mutual )

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

SAMEERTIA

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 3:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
[BICONSIDERATE?!?!

The only cool devil was Darkness from "Legend", the RL Devil is a PUNK, man, APUNK!!!!!!

Well, yah. But that was Tim Curry, and he's just dang cool no matter what!

I, too, think that no matter what your religion, you should respect the wishes of others not to pray for them.

Extreme example: Would you want a Devil-Cult worshipper praying for you to come over to the 'dark-side'?
No, probably not.
I wouldn't presume that others want to believe as I believe, and thus would not pray that they be 'saved' through my faith.

Now, in my mind, that falls into a different category than praying that someone returns safely from a journey, or that they are healed from their illness.

Praying that they will change their beliefs to become like you is hubris.
Praying that they will heal, become stronger, etc, is caring.

Am I making any sense here?

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 3:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SameErtia:

Am I making any sense here?

Certainly

But, this can be a slippery slope. Say someone has cancer, do we wish him/her to have the best quality of life for as long as possible, or a quick painless death when the time come, or...

I know that cancer is a rather extreme example. But, even with lesser examples, where is the line when it is ok just to do it?

Not trying to be a prick, I'm just trying to illustrate that the issue is very complex when it comes to the caring thing. And simply asking whether they want you to do something is really easy to do.

IMO, erring on the side of caution is best practice. And asking someone won't hurt (as long as it isn't 3 times a day everyday

).

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 4:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Let's say that your religion is real and praying will actually do something (Quite frankly, if you don't believe that praying will do something, then why are you doing it in the first place?) So, your actions will effect me now won't they?

So you’re superstitious. Well, that’s not my problem.

And bring the devil cult prayers on, I say. I can take any prayer you can dish out.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
And Finn, please, as with most other threads, this is not the place for levity; try to keep it on a little more serious level, huh?

Sorry. I’m not usually like this.

I guess there's a plan for all of us. I had to die, twice, just to figure that out. Like the book says “The Lord works in mysterious ways.” Some people like it; some people don't.
-- John Constantine.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

OMEGADARK

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 4:08 AM

SigmaNunki

Yep, the feeling is definitely mutual

and

Quote:
This is all I'm saying. Respect other peoples wishes.

I am sure you find this funny too, that both you and Finn are asking the same thing...Finn saying respect that he wants to pray for you and you, that he should respect that you don't want to be prayed for...lol there's no solution to this one other than Finn pray for Sigma and don't tell em and Sigma know that Finn isn't praying for you...

I am too tired to read all of what has been said...that's just my .02

CHRISISALL

Why the game? Well an honest answer: It's not a game its just the way it is.

My answer: Who the heck freaking knows! Not I...but I'll ask Him...

But, heck, sometimes it definitely feels like it would just be easier if He just popped out from behind the clouds to explain something....but to this day I am still waiting for that...I hope you have better luck...

-OD

X

(my signature becasue I can't read or write)

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 5:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

So you’re superstitious. Well, that’s not my problem.

How do you get that from what I wrote? Reading into things, things that I didn't say I gather. Then again, you seem to be doing that in this thread, so just more of the same.

But, you're right. Whether I'm superstitious or not is not your problem. Then again, whether it is a problem for me or not, isn't my problem either. It's just the way I live.

But, what is my problem, is that you keep not reading what I wrote. Well, no matter.

Good day to you. Perhaps we will speak again on another thread.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 5:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by OmegaDark:

But, heck, sometimes it definitely feels like it would just be easier if He just popped out from behind the clouds to explain something....but to this day I am still waiting for that...I hope you have better luck...

That would be cool wouldn't it

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 5:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

And bring the devil cult prayers on, I say. I can take any prayer you can dish out.
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
And Finn, please, as with most other threads, this is not the place for levity; try to keep it on a little more serious level, huh?
Sorry. I’m not usually like this.

Actually, it's fun to see ya funny.

And I agree, bring it! I can de-stabilize any negative cult prayers aimed at me.
Love it all, that's the key!!Ha ha!
*Thumbs his nose at things others tremble at*

Chrisisall, checking his ouija board to see if he has incurred bad vibes from demonic sources over previous statements...

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 5:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
But, you're right. Whether I'm superstitious or not is not your problem. Then again, whether it is a problem for me or not, isn't my problem either. It's just the way I live.

So if it’s a problem for you, then it’s not your problem? See, now that's classic. That's the SigmaNunki we all know and love.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 6:16 AM

Quote:
Present the truth of the gospel in a heartfelt manner, but don't become defensive if people reject it. People have been rejecting it from the dawn of time, and it would be presumptuous on our parts to think we can present it any better than even God's own son (who was rejected, too).

Ah... er... unless your "dawn of time" is a lot later than my "dawn of time", that would make this rejection of truth go back anywhere from 50,000 to 3 million years ago. Just think of all those people, rejecting the word of God.

Sigh.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 9:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by OmegaDark:
But, heck, sometimes it definitely feels like it would just be easier if He just popped out from behind the clouds to explain something....but to this day I am still waiting for that...I hope you have better luck...

He did, they got it on film in Monty Python and the search for the holy grail:

God: What are you doing now?
King Arthur: Averting our eyes, oh Lord.
God: Well, don't. It's just like those miserable psalms, always so depressing.
God: Every time I try to talk to someone it's "sorry this" and "forgive me that" and "I'm not worthy"...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

OMEGADARK

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 12:50 PM

Hahahahahaha!

Quote:
He did, they got it on film in Monty Python and the search for the holy grail:

Good point!!!

-OD

X

(I can't read or write)

CARTOON

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 2:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I'm just going to sum up what you've written as you are not arguing from a historical perspective, but using the bible completely. You also seem to think that the bible is the only thing that needs to be argued from as you seem to be ignoring history completely.

Well, there is no historical evidence(or very little that I'm aware of) to back up the miracles of the Bible*.

(*Although, I did recently see something where deep water subs have found intact, ancient chariot wheels on the bottom of the Red Sea -- and coral which has formed in the shape of long-since-deteroriated chariot chasis -- which is something of a coincidence when one considers that the Bible has claimed the Egyptian army was drowned when God closed the Red Sea on them over 3500 years ago.)

So, in response to your point about circular logic, I was not attempting to use the Bible to prove the Bible (or the miracles reported therein -- which I do believe actually occured), but that even when God has revealed Himself miraculously (by His own account), most people still stubbornly, chose not to believe.

So,it's my conclusion that "evidence" will never convince the people who don't want to believe in the first place. That was the point I was trying to make -- not to prove or disprove the verity of scriptures.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
You have also failed to give me this proof that everyone keeps talking about.

Well, I'm not "everyone" -- and I have stated from the start that it is highly unlikely that God's existence can be "proven". As such, I'm not obligated to prove something which I have maintained all along probably can't be subjectively proven.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 3:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

He did, they got it on film in Monty Python and the search for the holy grail:

They also got it on film in Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey, when God revealed his most important of words:
"Station..."

They melvined me Chrisisall

OMEGADARK

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 4:18 PM

Quote:
So,it's my conclusion that "evidence" will never convince the people who don't want to believe in the first place.

You summed it up right there.

Just one thing I wanted to say about the historical aspect:

It is very counter-productive to argue from a historical perspective in the first place. The bibles intention was never to give you a historical account for the sake of history, but to give you something you can use for your life today, right now, here, the moment...

so many of those who would argue against it based on history are missing the point. Even if history does prove the stories true or false, nothing will change the message or intention or truth.

Quote:
ancient chariot wheels on the bottom of the Red Sea

Althought it is pretty sweet to find out things like that just mentioned!!

-OD

X

(I can't read or write)

CARTOON

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 4:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by OmegaDark:
Althought it is pretty sweet to find out things like that just mentioned!!

Yes, it certainly causes even believers to do a double-take and say, "Hey, what?!?!"

Wish I could find out where that report was. It was fairly recent. Several people I know also saw it. As organized and detail-oriented as I have always been, unfortunately, I do not footnote my entire life and every bit of information I run across. It would be nice if we had search engines for our brains, wouldn't it? (Although, some would argue that mine is only a few kb in size anyhow, so why bother?)

CITIZEN

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 5:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
Yes, it certainly causes even believers to do a double-take and say, "Hey, what?!?!"

Not that your interested in anything I have to say, me being an evil Islamic terrorist heathen and such but I knew this.

There's also a scientific explanation, the sea did “part”, at around the time recorded in the Bible, due to a huge volcanic eruption on the island of Thera (Santorini) that wiped out the Cretan civilisation (the guys with the Minotaur from Greek myth).

Also, you should probably know that the original Hebrew Bible account puts the parting of the water in the Yam Suph (Reed Sea), not the Red Sea, which is believed to be an ancient name for Lake Manzala, a body of water in the North East Nile delta.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

PACRAT

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 7:37 PM

oh ouch!! I hurt myself laughing and fell on the floor (gravity really sucks sometimes!! heehee).

I have to say that this thread has been very entertaining and thought provoking both pro and con christianity. But after having taken required courses addressing ancient cultures/religions, I have to remain on the fence. Not an atheist, but not going to lie and claim to be a christian. I abide by my parents/in-laws beliefs and decided long ago that organized religon was not for me. My children did attend a "non-demonational" sunday school when they were young, and my daughter opted to join AOG when she was in high school. My son is like me, agnostic, a higher power may or may not have been involved in the creation of the planet and stars, but that is as far as it goes. My husband (who refers to himself as a recovering catholic) is of the same mind. We have found the quickest way to start a family fight that never gets resolved is to discuss religion. My roman catholic in-laws have quit insisting I attend mass, and I quit making tacky jokes concerning the pope, and we get along great. Live and let live is my motto, and for the most part, keeps me out of trouble.

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 9:18 PM

You say this:

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

I was not attempting to use the Bible to prove the Bible

Then this:

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

but that even when God has revealed Himself miraculously (by His own account)

These two things just don't jive.

You say that you are not using the bible to prove the bible. Yet the bible is really the only place in which it is stated that god exists; "His own account".

Then you just make the statement that god has revealed himself.

So, basically, your logic is that god exists because it has been shown in his own account. So, that logic is bible == bible. Yes, we know that the bible is the bible (

) but that says nothing about the original question.

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

, most people still stubbornly, chose not to believe.

So,it's my conclusion that "evidence" will never convince the people who don't want to believe in the first place. That was the point I was trying to make

When that "evidence" is riddled with logical fallacies, then I wouldn't expect anyone to come to the same conclusions.

If you just state that it is a matter of faith and cannot be shown by any real means, then I cannot nor will I argue that. Because that is my opinion of the whole thing as well

But, if you state evidence that could easily be explained by other non-supernatural means, then I'm going to have to say something.

Your chariot chasis example is a perfect example of this. To say that they are there and that implies something, or is evidence of something is rather fallacious. One must show that what one is getting at is at the very least the most probable solution before stating something like this.

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
You have also failed to give me this proof that everyone keeps talking about.

Well, I'm not "everyone" -- and I have stated from the start that it is highly unlikely that God's existence can be "proven". As such, I'm not obligated to prove something which I have maintained all along probably can't be subjectively proven.

I probably confused you with another poster in this thread. Sorry

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

BARNSTORMER

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 9:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:
Originally posted by leelu7777:
yes there is proof its just people dont want to belive they want to be incontrol of everything instead of beliving in a higher being that loves us more that we can bear to the point of death. so they choose no to pay attenion or see that hes all around us and yes I know I sound crazy but this must be said.

Actually the proof that you seem to be pointing to requires belief before it makes sense. The problem with this is that that is no proof at all.

Proof cannot be caste aside. It is proof after all.

But, instead of just stating things without anything to back up your claims (point of fact, this really irritates me), why not provide said proof?

If it really is proof, then we'll all be believers just by reading this thread. And no, I'm not being sarcastic. That is a logical conclusion.

----

Since you have it all figured out Sigma, why not prove to all the dumbass religous types that God does not exist?

What proof do you have that your so certain?

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 9:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by OmegaDark:

It is very counter-productive to argue from a historical perspective in the first place. The bibles intention was never to give you a historical account for the sake of history, but to give you something you can use for your life today, right now, here, the moment...

May I assume that you're getting at, the bible is along the lines of a "moral guide." If so, I agree to a large extent. I say large extent, because there are a number of passages in the bible that I think should be ignored. eg Exodus 31:14

I don't have a bible here, but from what I remember (

) it basically states that if you work on Sunday, you will be put to death. Not exactly a statement that gives the warm fuzzies.

IMO, all religions are the same, they just go about it in a different way.

(Yes, I've used exageration in the above. By all, I mean vast majority that I've studied.)

What I mean by this, is that at the core of all religions, they want people to do the same things eg Don't murder, don't steal, don't... And that the tactics differ among the different religions to get people to actually do (or don't do) these things.

For instance, Christanity generally promots that if you don't do x, you'll go to Hell for all eternity. Wicca enforces this with the rule of three. Etc.

Many paths to the same objective

Quote:
Originally posted by OmegaDark:

Even if history does prove the stories true or false, nothing will change the message or intention or truth.

"or true"?

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 9:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BarnStormer:

Since you have it all figured out Sigma, why not prove to all the dumbass religous types that God does not exist?

What proof do you have that your so certain?

What gave you the impression that I "had everything figured out"?

And I'd appreciate a more civil tone in your reply, please.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

CARTOON

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 9:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Your chariot chasis example is a perfect example of this. To say that they are there and that implies something, or is evidence of something is rather fallacious. One must show that what one is getting at is at the very least the most probable solution before stating something like this.

Actually, I think about 3500 years ago there was a large naval vessel carrying a large number of chariots, which sunk in the middle of the Red Sea, sending all of the chariots to the bottom.
Yeah, that's right. That's how they got there. I knew there had to be a non-supernatural reason.

I know I'm not going to win this one, so I give up. We'll all just have to wait until we die to find out who's right. Either way, I don't have anything to worry about.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I probably confused you with another poster in this thread. Sorry

No problem. You've seen one cartoon, you've seen 'em all.

BARNSTORMER

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 10:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:
Originally posted by BarnStormer:

Since you have it all figured out Sigma, why not prove to all the dumbass religous types that God does not exist?

What proof do you have that your so certain?

What gave you the impression that I "had everything figured out"?

And I'd appreciate a more civil tone in your reply, please.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

This is from your first post on this thread.....

2) No they certainly cannot prove the existance of god in detail. If that were true, then we would all have been believers a long time ago.

Due to the fact that you cannot disprove that God exists, you then cannot be certain that no one can provide the proof of Gods existance.

Yet in your post you state it as a certainty. If your so sure, where is your proof??????
I ask again.....

BTW, you'll get whatever I want to give in my reply. Just as you do. My posts are quite civil when compared to your history of rants and insults to anyone who disagrees with any of your opinions.

Do try to keep the self importance to a minimum.

Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

COPILOT

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 10:50 PM

I used to be a christian when I was a kid. For awhile my daddy was even a preacher man. Now I don't feel I could believe in that way. The vast majority of Christains I knew were evil backstabbing gossipy awfull awfull people. My family will never the same. I'm glad my father found god when I was yonge because he was saved from a horrible life of drug use and alcoholism. I will forever be greatfull to christ for that but it's not for me. Faith is wonderfull for those that find it. I'm glad you have something to make this life easier for you.

An I carried such a torch

SIGNYM

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 10:59 PM

Quote:
The bibles intention was never to give you a historical account for the sake of history, but to give you something you can use for your life today, right now, here, the moment...

Back in Biblical days, it was considered de rigeur to sacrifice your child, if the Voice of God told you to do so. Now, it's considered criminal, or possibly criminally insane. There's a lot in the Bible we prolly wouldn't want to follow. But as a document of religious myth, it's quite fascinating. I've never had time to read the Gospel of Thomas, but I heard its very different from what was eventually selected by the Church around 600 AD and might actually be closer to the original teachings.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

RUE

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 11:32 PM

SIGH There really are people who believe the bible in a literal sense.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

RUE

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 11:39 PM

The Gospel of Thomas (sometimes called the Heresy of Thomas, I think) is one of my two favorite religious writings. The other is the Lao Tzu.

The Gospel of Thomas doesn't have biographical notes (and then Jesus left the Sea of Galilee for the city of ...), it is filled with quotes.

"Jesus said ...

If those who lead you say to you, 'See the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather the kingdom is inside of you and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 11:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

Actually, I think about 3500 years ago there was a large naval vessel carrying a large number of chariots, which sunk in the middle of the Red Sea, sending all of the chariots to the bottom.
Yeah, that's right. That's how they got there. I knew there had to be a non-supernatural reason.

I know I'm not going to win this one, so I give up. We'll all just have to wait until we die to find out who's right. Either way, I don't have anything to worry about.

I never took that stance that this was about winning or losing. I was just discussing and was trying to seperate what might be an explination vs what isn't.

IMO, if god is as kind and generous as people say (and exists), then no-one that has lead as good life as they could has anything to worry about. I can't see and all benevolent god damning someone to an eternity of fire and brimestone just because they didn't believe for a very finite amount of time. That's just my opinion though

But, it's good to know that you are resonable enough to accept or come up with a more probable explination than a biblical one. Please don't take that the wrong way. It's just that in my experience meeting two people that are religous, that are also resonable in the same thread is a miracle (pun intended

).

Regarding the not having to worry thing. I know I'm not Mormon. And if you aren't either, then according to South Park, we both have something to worry about

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

I probably confused you with another poster in this thread. Sorry

No problem. You've seen one cartoon, you've seen 'em all.

See you in the funny pages.

Yah yah, I know.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 11:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BarnStormer:

This is from your first post on this thread.....

2) No they certainly cannot prove the existance of god in detail. If that were true, then we would all have been believers a long time ago.

Look at there website. QED.

Point of fact, if there was an indisputable existance proof of god, when read, we couldn't deny god's existance. Thus we'd all not just believe that god exists, but know that god exists.

Quote:
Originally posted by BarnStormer:

BTW, you'll get whatever I want to give in my reply. Just as you do. My posts are quite civil when compared to your history of rants and insults to anyone who disagrees with any of your opinions.

Do try to keep the self importance to a minimum.

And I don't have to reply to nor pay attention to your posts if you do not keep it civil and you have the same right to do that to me.

My past history in no way justifies any ill behaviour on your part. I have behaved in a civil manner in this thread and for the past quite some time. So, I think I deserve it reciprocated.

Also, if you look at my last blog, you'll note that I noticed that this site has gotten collectively more and more angry over the past little while (I'm not alone in this opinion either).

I have decided to become part of the solution. Part of that is to not entertain those that post insulting and/or mean and/or condescending and/or ... comments.

I plan on moving forward and sticking to this as best as I can (I cannot change the past). What you do is up to you. But I do hope that this jockeying for position stuff can end.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

CARTOON

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 11:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Yeah, that's right. That's how they got there. I knew there had to be a non-supernatural reason.

Actually, I was being silly with that one. You know -- trying to beat the skeptics to their "logical" explanation for the chariots being there at the bottom of the Red Sea.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
IMO, if god is as kind and generous as people say (and exists), then no-one that has lead as good life as they could has anything to worry about. I can't see and all benevolent god damning someone to an eternity of fire and brimestone just because they didn't believe for a very finite amount of time. That's just my opinion though

Well, I won't go into detailed theology here. For one thing, it'll bore the heck out of nearly everyone.

However, if you're actually interested in my attempt to explain what I think the Bible teaches in this regard, feel free to ask. I'll respond via private message. If not, not.

CITIZEN

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 12:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
The Gospel of Thomas (sometimes called the Heresy of Thomas, I think) is one of my two favorite religious writings. The other is the Lao Tzu.

The Gospel of Thomas doesn't have biographical notes (and then Jesus left the Sea of Galilee for the city of ...), it is filled with quotes.

"Jesus said ...

If those who lead you say to you, 'See the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather the kingdom is inside of you and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

The Gospel of Thomas the Doubter?

And yeah, it's full of stuff that didn't help the cause of Roman Catholicism, like control, so it was removed.

Quote:
Originally posted by Cartoon:
Actually, I was being silly with that one. You know -- trying to beat the skeptics to their "logical" explanation for the chariots being there at the bottom of the Red Sea.

The Bible doesn't place the parting of the sea and the drowning of the Egyptian Chariots in the Red sea, so no matter what the explanation its not from the Bible, your ignorance of your own religion is astounding, not that you'll read this so I can say what I like

.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

RUE

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 12:45 AM

Those who argue that the Thomas Gospel predates Mathew, Mark, Luke and John would say it comes from Thomas the Apostle.

On another note, something I've always wondered about is why Christians even refer to the Old Testament. Wasn't Jesus doing away with the old and creating a new from-the-ground-up compact with god ?

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

OMEGADARK

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 12:58 AM

Quote:

May I assume that you're getting at, the bible is along the lines of a "moral guide."

Nope, I am saying that it is irrelevant to someone who is incorporating the values. It doesn't hold up in an argument unless you are basing your entire arguments validity on your 'historical evidence.' We can argue whether it is useful or not to argue historically in some other thread, I would prefer arguments on doctrine and understanding....

Quote:
if you work on Sunday, you will be put to death. Not exactly a statement that gives the warm fuzzies.

LOL, now that takes a whole different historical approach doesn't it? Hehehe, the history of writing and such...ah what a quagmire of a topic! But, none the less...no fuzzies for me either

Quote:
IMO, all religions are the same, they just go about it in a different way.

From my study (FOR THE MOST PART, MOST PART) the values are very similar....but that too doesn't affect or hinder the arguments for or against Christianity...but it is awfully interesting to see how alike most religions truly are!!!

Quote:
(Yes, I've used exageration in the above. By all, I mean vast majority that I've studied.)

I know

Quote:
For instance, Christanity generally promots that if you don't do x, you'll go to Hell for all eternity.

I have to disagree here (sigh). The notion of doing this or not doing that leads to hell is an absurdly simplified notion that can quite easily lead one to believe that God is some type of ogre who has no conception of human interaction, influences, etc etc etc. It also can lead to a very unmerciful view of God. The toughest thing about scripture and the like is the 'reading between the lines'. But, if you take it literally, then well...*sigh*...my argument is useless for you....

Quote:
Many paths to the same objective

Yep, could be...could be...nothing to say here

Quote:
"or true"?

Hey

don't insinuate...that is just silly

COPILOT

I am sure He is still in your life....you will find Him in someway or form....

Quote:
The vast majority of Christains I knew were evil backstabbing gossipy awfull awfull people

I know, it is sad that those burned out bulbs of the Christian community burn the brightest...good luck

Quote:
Back in Biblical days, it was considered de rigeur to sacrifice your child, if the Voice of God told you to do so. Now, it's considered criminal, or possibly criminally insane. There's a lot in the Bible we prolly wouldn't want to follow. But as a document of religious myth, it's quite fascinating. I've never had time to read the Gospel of Thomas, but I heard its very different from what was eventually selected by the Church around 600 AD and might actually be closer to the original teachings.

*sigh*

I really don't want this to be offensive, and if it is I appologize in advance...

But, that was the silliest thing I have ever heard....

-OD

I can't write anymore...too much to write...this is about it...

X

(I can't read or write)

CARTOON

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 1:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Something I've always wondered about is why Christians even refer to the Old Testament. Wasn't Jesus doing away with the old and creating a new from-the-ground-up compact with god ?

Since you asked, actually Jesus said He had not come "to destroy the Law or the Prophets," that He did not come to destroy, but to fulfill. Also, that not one jot or tittle would pass from the Law until all is fulfilled.

Jesus didn't come to replace Judiasm, but fulfill it. That's the short explaination. If you want a longer one, I'd be happy to make an effort to provide you with one to the best I can. If not, not.

RUE

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 1:16 AM

And yet Jesus preached against existing religion based on the OT.

You will not be defiled by what goes into your mouth, rather by what comes out of it ... there are only two important commandments, love god with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself ...

Just two examples of the many preachings that sought to do away with the influence of the OT.

edited to add: In one way or another Jesus said - follow him. This was reiterated openly and in various guises. You must give up all you have and follow me, I am the way, pearl of great price, light under a bushel, seeds on fertile ground, mustard seed, prodigal son etc. And the only things he ever preached were love god above all and your neighbour as yourself.

It seems pretty clear to me - you must follow him. No one else.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

MURKYMERC

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 1:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by leelu7777:
fine live in darkness live in emptiness and die go to a place where you will have every disease and every mental sickness ever created because a misconception. I dont know what happened to you to get that idea but he will never let you down it just takes some time for every thing to take place. he lived for you he died for you and this is how you repay him he died because the devil took the keys of heaven so no one could enter he had a chance to flee the garden of olives and leave the people that cursed him and let you burn he could have had a long and furfilled life but no he was beaten broken and nailed at a tree his children spit on him and he knew it would happen he could of shunned them left them to suffer in etrenal darkness but no he forgave the ones that cursed him and you say he dosent care ha as a christian I know him speak to him and feel his love and his peace and then to hear the words of hate twards him to think people would rather chose emptyness and pain over peace and true everlasting love because of past wrong doings fine you have a choice not mine who am I to tell you it your life

i'm in the world not of it

AHHHHHh.....Help, I need commas and periods!!!! I thought I was a Christian, but is there something I can do to not be associated with this person?

RUE

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 1:44 AM

What can I say? There are many who've gone to great lengths to erase distinctions - the world is so much clearer in black and white.

See 'demonization' threads.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 1:58 AM

Quote:
Back in Biblical days, it was considered de rigeur to sacrifice your child, if the Voice of God told you to do so. Now, it's considered criminal, or possibly criminally insane. There's a lot in the Bible we prolly wouldn't want to follow. But as a document of religious myth, it's quite fascinating. I've never had time to read the Gospel of Thomas, but I heard its very different from what was eventually selected by the Church around 600 AD and might actually be closer to the original teachings.- Signy

*sigh* I really don't want this to be offensive, and if it is I appologize in advance... But, that was the silliest thing I have ever heard.... -OmegaDark

Why silly? I thought the whole thing about Abraham sacrificing Isaac was a test of faith.

Quote:
(Gen 22 NIV) Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!" "Here I am," he replied. {2} Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

Now, I find a lot of interesting things about this particular passage. One that isn't mentioned much nowadays is that the Old Testament God was like a lot of gods in the region- he liked his sacrifices. The scent of burning flesh wafting to heaven was meant to propitiate this fearsome (but appraently bribable) entity. The other thing that I think is interesting in that the sacrifice had to be worth something. I mean, sure, you could go cheap and buy yourself a dove at the temple (and pay the money-changers a stiff price for the right coin, I'll bet) but if you REALLY wanted to make your point with God, you'd go grab your best ram from the flock. Now that's a sacrifice. It's just one step further to sacrifice a son. And indeed, there are people today who hear God's voice telling them to kill their children and they do (It's a test of faith you see) and they usually get put on thorazine or some such so they can make a lucid case for themselves at trial.

The other point I find interesting about this passage... and gives you an idea about how society has changed... is that God doesn't expect Abraham to demure because killing a human is morally repugnant, but because Abraham values and loves Isaac. Isaac, in fact, doesn't seem to be part of the equation- not accorded what we call "human rights"- he is simply Abraham's prized possession. In fact, it was quite common in the patriarchal societies of that time to dispose of wives, children, servants and slaves as the master saw fit.

There are lots of other examples; "Here, take my young virginal daughters and do what you will with them, just leave me along with these men of God" and so forth, that we would squirm about today.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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