Windows Linux or Mac?

POSTED BY: Haze
UPDATED: Saturday, April 8, 2006 06:42
VIEWED: 43009
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HAZE

Wednesday, February 8, 2006 6:18 PM

In an offshoot from my resent post about Firefox Vs IE I thought I would as about you favourite OS.

Personally I’m using fully updated windows XP media centre edition 2005. In the 3 weeks I have owned this PC I have gotten at least 20 error messages and been forced to restart three times. That’s the major problem with windows. Even at it best is so damn unstable. Personally I would be using Linux if I wasn’t for its pure gaming support (I likes my RPGs).

So please share your thoughts.

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Who do you suppose is in there?

DUG

Wednesday, February 8, 2006 6:56 PM

You nailed the issue:

If you want accessibility to the majority of programs you have to use windoze.

If you have specific needs and can get the programs that fit them, Mac or Linux are solid options. But you'll have to forsake access to a lot of other software. For that reason windows is still the best choice for most people.

PURPLEBELLY

Wednesday, February 8, 2006 6:58 PM

Holding my breath for Hurd -- and you wonder why I'm purple

FOURSKYS

Wednesday, February 8, 2006 7:39 PM

Windows for games, Linux for anything serious.

NIKNAK

Wednesday, February 8, 2006 7:43 PM

Happily using Linux here. No Windows at all at home.

If you must play commercial games then you can set up a dual boot system and just use Windows for that.

I always thought Serenity should be using the Hurd. They should have done a shot of a computer screen where you can see "GNU Hurd 0.7" or something. All the GNU guys could get excited about seeing it but we could all laugh because it's still not finished in 500 years time.

GLITCH

Wednesday, February 8, 2006 8:48 PM

For years, I used a Mac at work, Windows at home. I switched to a Mac at home also and can't figure out what I'm supposed to have lost access to! Some things aren't installed on it, but (a) the reverse is also true, and (b) you can install those things, often free. Except for the fact that windows systems are much more often attacked, b/c they're the most popular, I'd say computers are just computers, and learning how to use a different one just doesn't take a whole lot of extra effort.

GLITCH

HAZE

Monday, February 13, 2006 6:51 PM

Here’s a question. If I where to go with Linux what version would you recommend?

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Who do you suppose is in there?

UNREGISTEREDCOMPANION

Monday, February 13, 2006 6:55 PM

I have 4 macs plus 5 very large external hard drives FULL of games, applications, and files. So, what am I missing then???

:::iMac G5 17" flat screen:::Hells Yeah!:::

~~~~~
"Funny and sexy. You have no idea. And you never will."

DIAVO

Monday, February 13, 2006 7:00 PM

WinXP SP2 on a laptop. No issues.

OPTI

Monday, February 13, 2006 8:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Haze:
Here’s a question. If I where to go with Linux what version would you recommend?

I switched from windows to Fedora, and love it.

You might want to intall a few different versions, and see which one you like best.

DAVEC5

Thursday, March 9, 2006 3:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Haze:
In an offshoot from my resent post about Firefox Vs IE I thought I would as about you favourite OS.

I switched to Mac a few years back...after years of frustrating Windows glitches.....what was I thinking?? the Mac OS X operating system is flawless (so far).... I totally recommend all things Apple...

And I plan to buy the new PowerBook with the intel core duo processor just as soon as I can, with complete confidence that it will be even better...

take it from a long time pc guy who pretty much makes his living with these things... Switch Now!....(i've come to believe that Windows OS is evil and must have ties to some nefarious government agency not unlike the Alliance in the future), of course, I tend to be a might paranoid about some things.

"...actually, I was fired...from a fry cook opportunity..."

DATALESS

Thursday, March 9, 2006 4:25 PM

I think there are more problems then just having to restart windows a few times. If that were all that would be fine. I only have windows now but I really want to switch to a Mac. The real concerns with any windows machine are the need to Defrag, Viruses, Spyware and any number of unknown theats. Viruses might happen on linux but the people using it find a way to beat it pretty quickly but lack of WiFi support was a problem for me. I would love to get a mac because they have had to date only one Viral attack that I know of and that was very recent. You might lose the ability to play the games on mac but you can buy a compy of windows and then play the games on your mac. With all them the macs can do I think it might be worth it. The fact that you can create a pod cast so easily and just send it right to Itunes is amazing and it's just about any musical instrument you could ever want (Garage Band). So of the macs even habe a camera built in and mic for Video podcasting or chatting. Just go to an Apple Store. As for linux you can do the same (buy a copy and have a dual boot up.)

FOURSKYS

Thursday, March 9, 2006 4:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Haze:
Here’s a question. If I were to go with Linux what version would you recommend?

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Who do you suppose is in there?

I haven't had much experience with many different Linux distributions, but my personal feeling is that they're all pretty much the same, just with a lightly different feel. Red Hat's Fedora is a quick and fairly painless install, and it works just fine. I use Red Hat Enterprise at work (the company pays for the support fees). I'm in the process of installing a Gentoo ditribution on a home machine. It's a (supposedly) better and more customizealbe distribution, should work faster, and you can put in a lot more tweak's, but I wouldn't recommend it as your first forray into Linux. It's a bit more tricky of an install...

FOURSKYS

Thursday, March 9, 2006 4:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by davec5:

I switched to Mac a few years back...after years of frustrating Windows glitches.....what was I thinking?? the Mac OS X operating system is flawless (so far).... I totally recommend all things Apple...

If it weren't for OS X, I would hate Mac. I was born and bred on Dos and Windows, and now I use Linux more often than I turn on my Windows machine. But Mac's always left a sour taste in my mouth. But now that the new Mac OS is running on a Linux (Free BSD) kernel, it's much much harder to dislike them. I mean, you get a terminal window, and a cool looking graphical interface. It's tough to go wrong. But still... It's a MAC.

PURPLEBELLY

Thursday, March 9, 2006 4:37 PM

Quote:
Here’s a question. If I were to go with Linux what version would you recommend?

Once you've met Puppy, you'll never turn your back on someone with a usb flash drive -- ever again

BTW: please don't say that any of the BSD family are derivates of Linux -- this is a happy part of the world but probably isn't flame-proof

HAZE

Thursday, March 9, 2006 4:43 PM

I've ordered a copy of Ubuntu Linux as I have heard so many good things about it, and hey the disc is free! I find myself in the position now of being able to swap my Amd 64 3200+ media center pc for a G4 imac. Both have one gig of ram.

What do you think? Good deal?

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Who do you suppose is in there?

FOURSKYS

Thursday, March 9, 2006 4:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
BTW: please don't say that any of the BSD family are derivates of Linux -- this is a happy part of the world but probably isn't flame-proof

Ok, so if I'm trying to be 100% accurate, which, though I usually try to be, larely fail at doing most times, I should have said that Mac OS is based on Unix (Free BSD). Would that have been more acceptable? :-)

FOURSKYS

Thursday, March 9, 2006 4:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Haze:
I've ordered a copy of Ubuntu Linux as I have heard so many good things about it, and hey the disc is free! I find myself in the position now of being able to swap my Amd 64 3200+ media center pc for a G4 imac. Both have one gig of ram.

What do you think? Good deal?

--------------------------------------------------
Who do you suppose is in there?

What do you plan on doing with the machine? I mean, I have my own personal bias against Mac, so I would say no. Plus, an AMD 64 is a really good machine. But it depends on what you like...

HAZE

Thursday, March 9, 2006 5:04 PM

Oh know it’s a good machine, I wouldn’t touch a Pentium anymore! The primary reason I would got with a Mac is security and stability, but then again I can get them with Linux. I have to think on it. (and I was wrong its actually a G5 imac.)

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Who do you suppose is in there?

PURPLEBELLY

Thursday, March 9, 2006 5:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FourSkys:
... Unix (Free BSD). Would that have been more acceptable?

You do mean Unix-like?

http://www.unix.org/trademark.html

DINKY

Thursday, March 9, 2006 5:08 PM

I think it would be safe for me to say it's either the software that you're using or it's Media Center.

I use Windows XP Home Edition 32 bit. I would rather have Windows XP 64 bit because I have an AMD 64 x2 4400+ for a CPU but Windows 64 just doesn't have the support, I know for a fact that not all of the software I use works in Windows 64, we have 2 out of 33 computers here in this house that run Windows 64.

And I'm going to root off from the word 'Support'. Linux I bet is a good OS... As in I bet it's fun to use, probably stable... But that's a big reason as to why it's stable, there isn't much that runs on it. It's a different OS so everything it runs has to be made for that OS. And it seems that whenever something comes out, it releases for Windows, then it releases for Linux and/or Mac. With most software anyway.

Windows is where all the users are, therefore that's where all the software developers are going to concentrate all of their... Well all of their developing. Whether it be software or patches for software or drivers.

I've been using Windows since Windows 95 and I have never had as many problems as people say they have with it. And you say you're running Media Center Windows and you're getting all kinds of crazy errors? I'm running Windows XP Home 32 and I rarely ever get a system error... In fact I don't even remember the last time I've had one.

"Th3re !s n0 spo0Ne." -The Matricks

FOURSKYS

Thursday, March 9, 2006 5:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Quote:
Originally posted by FourSkys:
... Unix (Free BSD). Would that have been more acceptable?
You do mean Unix-like?

Yes, yes. Unix-like, of course that's what I meant.

Oh, and I just have to try this puppy thing now...

Quote:

And I'm going to root off from the word 'Support'. Linux I bet is a good OS... As in I bet it's fun to use, probably stable... But that's a big reason as to why it's stable, there isn't much that runs on it. It's a different OS so everything it runs has to be made for that OS. And it seems that whenever something comes out, it releases for Windows, then it releases for Linux and/or Mac. With most software anyway.

There's a bit of a difference between "support" and "software" though. You'll find that with any Unix-like operating system, there's a lot more support out there than you'll get for Windows. Have you ever tried using Microsoft's tech support? There are tons of pages out there by Linux users who fix and identify problems, not to mention the technical pages on the distribution's site that, since the distribution is smaller, are generally very helpful with working with you to fix the problem. You're not going to get that from Windows.

Also, in the avenue of Software, just because the software isn't available to buy, doesn't mean you can't get something that does the same thing. Now, this doesn't always apply to games, but chances are someone's written something that does the same thing for Unix-like systems, and it probably works a lot better than the thing you have to buy for Windows. Oh, and did I mention that most Unix-like software is free?

PURPLEBELLY

Thursday, March 9, 2006 7:23 PM

Quote:
Oh, and I just have to try this puppy thing now...

Good on yer, mate. Be warned -- there's no coming back

Seriously, I don't use it for my work-horse development system or Usenet-sponge (Debian both), but as well as the key-ring flash I use it on an old laptop where it shares a small hard drive with an operating system that I'm sometimes forced to use when visiting alien worlds and from a multisession-dvd on a quiet system without a hard-drive mostly as an X-server but with occasional local dvd-play. It's a young community as yet, but everyone seems to have fun

http://www.puppylinux.org/

FOURSKYS

Friday, March 10, 2006 5:49 AM

This post oficially made using PuppyLinux from a live-CD boot. I still haven't gotten my USB key to work properly, but I'm just glad I got my wireless card working. Took me a couple hours, but I'm liking it...

PURPLEBELLY

Friday, March 10, 2006 6:13 AM

Welcome to the pack! Even the most adorable puppies may have inconvenient habits until house-trained

The major problem I have with using a USB drive is finding a system with BIOS new enough to have a boot option -- using a floppy disk to jump-start takes the glamour away somehow and is no more convenient than a CD -- but that speaks of my impoverished environment rather than Puppy.

RUXTON

Friday, March 10, 2006 6:31 AM

HAZE,

This is my first post since installing full Windows XP/Home 32-bit, wiping everything off the computer. This computer has held Linux (Red Hat/Fedora, which I recommend highly on any computer running 500 mhz or faster, and with, say, six gig of hard drive or better), W98SE and now W-XP. [My copy of Red Hat Fedora was also zero cost, but at most you may have to pay $5 for a disk. Compare that to typical eBay prices for XP of $90 or so.]

I had to install XP only four times (at about 1.5 hours a shot) to get it right. Only one installation screwup was my fault, I suspect, which resulted in my having to choose between Windows XP and "on" for an operating system every time I turned the computer on. I have no idea what "on" was, or how it got there, but a final reinstall got rid of it.

I have absolutely no good words for Bill Gates or Microsoft or anything they offer. However, I did get some good feedback from a M/S tech along the way, to my utter amazement.

The problem with W98, as I learned from a United Parcel tech who builds his own computers, is that it has a memory drain. If you run memory-intensive programs fast and furious, the memory loads up and does not refresh itself, and eventually the computer just stops.

I have had this problem with "Guitar PRo," which could never play a full piece without stopping the computer completely. We'll see in the next day or so if XP solves that problem, but I'm told it does.

Yet Photoshop LE will NOT run on XP, and it's a small, simple, old, and useful version (also obsolete) of the mighty and costly Photoshop, that runs on every other system except Linux that I've had here on all my computers.

The problem with Windows seems to be that it wants to do everything for you, and do it all automatically. Linux, on the other hand, is MANUAL. You control it, not the other way around. It does NOTHING automatically. But my computer expertise and time allotment were insufficient to make Linux work with all the stuff I wanted to make work. So it was back to this Microsoft garbage.

STDOUBT

Friday, March 10, 2006 8:17 AM

Ruxton,
Since you bumped this thread, I thought i'd
pipe up and suggest you try a bootable cd called
Elive. It does a lot of things automatically. And
it can be installed as well as run from cd.
In my experience, many Linux distros do more auto stuff than I like (heh). Sorry for your windows relapse... That's gotta hurt!
http://www.elivecd.org/gb/Download/0.4.2/
This version of Elive is code named 'Serenity'
so I been pimpin' it ;]
EDIT: There's actually a pantload of games for Linux: http://happypenguin.org/

RUXTON

Friday, March 10, 2006 10:19 PM

Would respectfully ask ANYONE how the dickens do I get XP to run Photoshop LE??? The "compatibility" option of XP does not work. I have LOTS of RAM, 640 Meg, (max possible is 750), but suspect -- SUSPECT -- the 32-bit setup causes the RAM to be managed in a way that forces Photoshop LE to be dumped entirely into it, and hence the computer can't do it.

Anyone have any suggestions? Fixes?

I could reinstall XP (6th time) with only 2 gig of room for its own partition, which doesn't force the 32-bit installation, and also leaves me more of the hard drive open for music, pix, etc.

Or I could buy more RAM, but won't spend another dime until I'm sure it'll get this stuff to work.

ANYONE?? HELP!!

RUXTON

Friday, March 10, 2006 10:22 PM

STDOUBT,

Do you know if ELIVE runs Photoshop LE?

I just emailed 'em with this question....

SNEAKER98

Friday, March 10, 2006 10:38 PM

Well, there's a few rules of thumb:

Windows for gaming.
Mac for artistry and media editting.
*nix for servers.

It's a general rule, but it works most of the time.

As for the folks saying they get error after error: you've done something, not windows. Provided you know what to install and what not to, windows is as stable as intended, which means so long as you don't leave it running for months at a time, it'll do just fine.

Also, someone mentioned that they wanted 64-bit windows: don't. Because there's less driver support, and frankly it's pointless at the moment. There's almost no applications that are made specifically for 64-bit, because most folks are still on 32-bit processors. In about 5 years, you'll only be able to find a 64; but not yet. And no, a 64-bit processor doesn't run 32-bit programs faster than a 32-bit processor! ;)

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

CAITLYN

Friday, March 10, 2006 10:54 PM

There is no amount of money or cool software in the world that could get me to run the bug laden, bloated, often broken, and horribly insecure mess that is Windows. I run Linux exclusively and have since 1998. I have nothing against Mac OSX (FreeBSD with a very pretty GUI) but I prefer using inexpensive hardware.

Oh, to those who say there isn't sufficient software for Linux, when did you last look at what is really available? You're in for a surprise.

Gamers, OTOH, who insist on specific games, are mostly stuck.

"Yes, sir, Captain Tightpants!"

FLETCH2

Friday, March 10, 2006 11:22 PM

Mac is now where Linux is going. Unix core, a single stable and pretty windows manager capable of running decent GUI applications. Mac OSX lets you run GUI apps just as nicely as windows does without worrying about X windows and the like and if needed, bang a fully functional Unix command line is right there.

In addition the software tools to make new applications are right there amongst the disks you get, ie like Linux there are free development tools for GUI applications. Gotta love it.

RUE

Friday, March 10, 2006 11:37 PM

My workplace uses windoze (). For compatibility I need windoze, so a dual boot system works best.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

HAZE

Friday, March 10, 2006 11:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:
Would respectfully ask ANYONE how the dickens do I get XP to run Photoshop LE??? The "compatibility" option of XP does not work. I have LOTS of RAM, 640 Meg, (max possible is 750), but suspect -- SUSPECT -- the 32-bit setup causes the RAM to be managed in a way that forces Photoshop LE to be dumped entirely into it, and hence the computer can't do it.

Anyone have any suggestions? Fixes?

I could reinstall XP (6th time) with only 2 gig of room for its own partition, which doesn't force the 32-bit installation, and also leaves me more of the hard drive open for music, pix, etc.

Or I could buy more RAM, but won't spend another dime until I'm sure it'll get this stuff to work.

ANYONE?? HELP!!

If you cannot get it running on your PC my I recommend The Gimp http://www.gimp.org/ its not quite as good as photoshop but you cant beat it on price.

--------------------------------------------------
Who do you suppose is in there?

FLETCH2

Saturday, March 11, 2006 1:03 AM

Ruxton,
You're stuffed I'm afraid. Unlike 95/98 XP is based on a similar design to NT, Micro$oft knew when they launched it that some apps wouldn't work even in compatability mode. Other than dual booting the only suggestion I can think of is Paintshop Pro or Photoshop Elements.

PURPLEBELLY

Saturday, March 11, 2006 5:09 AM

If you would like to try the Gimp experience, then one way of doing this without distrupting your present installation is to burn a live-CD from Grafpup -- a graphic design oriented puplet from the litter of PuppyLinux derived distros
http://grafpup.com/

RUXTON

Saturday, March 11, 2006 5:35 AM

HAZE and FLETCH2,

Thanks for your kind and informed words. Fletch2, you hit it on the head, i.e., I'm stuffed. I spent two hours today on the phone with a Microsoft tech, and he even took a break to research the problem. Bottom line, Photoshop LE does NOT run on Windows XP. Fletch2, you even hit the solution we (tech and I) came to: Photoshop Elements, which at this minute I'm downloading (373 MB, well over three hours so far on DSL).

BTW, the tech fielded, and effectively skirted, the question of W98SE having the memory drain I mentioned above, which is the main reason I went to XP.

Purplebelly, thanks for the tip. I may have to check back to see what actually DOES run on Linux. But I'll give this op sys (XP) a chance, inasmuch as it's already installed and I know most of the stuff I need works perfectly.

[I just realized GIMP works on XP. May give it a try.]

Thanks again, and happy computing to all.

SNEAKER98

Saturday, March 11, 2006 7:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Caitlyn:
There is no amount of money or cool software in the world that could get me to run the bug laden, bloated, often broken, and horribly insecure mess that is Windows. I run Linux exclusively and have since 1998.

I hate to play the devils advocate on ya, but if you've run Linux exclusively since 1998; how do you know what state Windows is in, hmm?

I'm not about to trash an operating system if I don't have experience on it. (For future ref, I've used windows 3.1, 95, 98, 98SE, 2k, XP, as well as OS9, SuSe, Redhat, and am currently dual-booting with Solaris and WinXP)

*Sighs* Way too many folks call it Windoze and don't actually know why.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

CAITLYN

Saturday, March 11, 2006 4:27 PM

I should have said I run Windows exclusively at home. I still had to support it at work to some extent until two years ago. I still provide technical help to family members who run it. I still have to work with UNIX/Windows and Linux/Windows interoperability issues. So... I do have experience with every version of Windows out there. (Yes, I am an IT professional.)

Windows is horrible on pretty much every level. Stability is better than it once was, especially in Server 2003, but it's still terrible. Memory leakage problems still abound. Virii, trojans, worms, and spyware, oh my! Microsoft's attitude towards security is still cavalier at best.

The new features that Microsoft has been touting for their next release have been available to Linux and Mac users for years. The Apple Aqua (Mac OSX) desktop and KDE in the Linux world are both far superior and far more customizable UIs than what Windows offers.

Need I go on? I can, you know.

CAITLYN

Saturday, March 11, 2006 4:32 PM

Fletch, your comment was certainly accurate a few years ago. I'm not sure that it is today. Since most major distributions migrated from XFree86 to X.org you don't have to "worry" about X windows. It's just there, the infrastructure behind the UI, but it's not something most people have to configure or interact with directly.

In terms of the desktop, again, Apple's is simply fantastic but I'd say that KDE has come awfully close. KDE or even Gnome are light years ahead of where Microsoft is with XP. A friend of mine who recently installed Ubuntu for the first time commented how similar it is to a Mac interface. It can be, but it doesn't have to be.

Certainly anyone who has a recent vintage Mac has an excellent hardware and software platform and really has no reason to look elsewhere. Someone who has a PC can migrate to Linux and get to an excellent working environment without buying new hardware so that choice makes more sense, particularly now that new Macs are Intel based.

SNEAKER98

Saturday, March 11, 2006 6:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Caitlyn:
I should have said I run Windows exclusively at home. I still had to support it at work to some extent until two years ago. I still provide technical help to family members who run it. I still have to work with UNIX/Windows and Linux/Windows interoperability issues. So... I do have experience with every version of Windows out there. (Yes, I am an IT professional.)

What you're saying to me is "I only see the problems that happen with Windows XP".

Quote:
Originally posted by Caitlyn:
Windows is horrible on pretty much every level. Stability is better than it once was, especially in Server 2003, but it's still terrible.

On a server, yes it's terrible considering a server is supposed to stay online for months at a time. But you and I both know Windows isn't particularly meant to be a server; it's PC for Mr. and Mrs. common-Man.

Quote:
Originally posted by Caitlyn:
Memory leakage problems still abound.

Memory leaks from software that's written from 3rd party vendors. Hardly MS's fault, and you know it. Those problems occur when people like you and me stop caring about what they're writing (assuming your field of IT is programming, as mine is)

Quote:
Originally posted by Caitlyn:
Virii, trojans, worms, and spyware, oh my!

And why would that be? Would that be because 90% of the world is on a windows box? If I'm a hacker, and I want to do as much damage as possible, I'm clearly going to target the majority; plain and simple.

This issue keeps coming up again and again, but the answer is simple: EVERY plain old windows user sets themselves up as administrator (aka: root). The problem is far more the fault of the user who doesn't particularly know better.

Quote:
Originally posted by Caitlyn:
Microsoft's attitude towards security is still cavalier at best.

Not with service pack 2, no. They finally said "to hell with crappy programs", and prevented particularly unsecure ones from running at all. It doesn't solve everything, but it sure fixed a lot.

Quote:
Originally posted by Caitlyn:
The Apple Aqua (Mac OSX) desktop and KDE in the Linux world are both far superior and far more customizable UIs than what Windows offers.

That's a moot point, considering windows has never been about the customization of the UI.

Quote:
Originally posted by Caitlyn:
Need I go on? I can, you know.

As could I. Perhaps the debate on software compatibility? The issue of user ease, which is the whole point of home OS's?

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

CAITLYN

Sunday, March 12, 2006 7:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by sneaker98:
Quote:
Originally posted by Caitlyn:
What you're saying to me is "I only see the problems that happen with Windows XP".

No, I see major problems with every version of Windows released to date.

Quote:
But you and I both know Windows isn't particularly meant to be a server; it's PC for Mr. and Mrs. common-Man.

Neither a Mac no a Linux-based PC with one of the better, full-featured, easy to use distros (i.e.: Mandrive, Ubuntu, Fedora) is harder for Mr. or Mrs. common man. If my mother (a 69 year old retired professor with no technical background) found Linux no harder to use and a solution to problems and grief Windows bugs were causing her then pretty much anyone can make the switch. FWIW, on her Toshiba laptop running XP meant random shutdowns, especially when printing. On Linux that same Toshiba laptop, which claims to be designed for XP, is flawless.

Quote:

Memory leaks from software that's written from 3rd party vendors. Hardly MS's fault

Since when are bugs in Internet Explorer, for example, not Microsoft's fault?

Quote:

And why would that be? Would that be because 90% of the world is on a windows box? If I'm a hacker, and I want to do as much damage as possible, I'm clearly going to target the majority; plain and simple.

Dead wrong. Microsoft is only 42% of the server market and servers are the richest target that do the most damage. Windows security (or lack thereof) is a joke and Windows is an easier target.

Quote:

Not with service pack 2, no. They finally said "to hell with crappy programs", and prevented particularly unsecure ones from running at all. It doesn't solve everything, but it sure fixed a lot.

There are still critical flaws reported and Microsoft takes days to fix them.

Quote:

That's a moot point, considering windows has never been about the customization of the UI.

That is a major deficiency for a desktop OS, IMHO.

Quote:

As could I. Perhaps the debate on software compatibility? The issue of user ease, which is the whole point of home OS's?

None of which would change anything. Most home users who are on Windows are there because they don't know better.

SNEAKER98

Sunday, March 12, 2006 7:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Caitlyn:
No, I see major problems with every version of Windows released to date.

No... you missed my point. If you're supporting Windows, as you say, you're only seeing what goes wrong with windows. You're not seeing the plethora of folks who have no problem at all. Why would you? They're not bugging you to fix anything.

Quote:
Originally posted by Caitlyn:
Neither a Mac no a Linux-based PC with one of the better, full-featured, easy to use distros (i.e.: Mandrive, Ubuntu, Fedora) is harder for Mr. or Mrs. common man. If my mother (a 69 year old retired professor with no technical background) found Linux no harder to use and a solution to problems and grief Windows bugs were causing her then pretty much anyone can make the switch. FWIW, on her Toshiba laptop running XP meant random shutdowns, especially when printing. On Linux that same Toshiba laptop, which claims to be designed for XP, is flawless.

I'll bet she didn't install Linux all by herself (which is pretty much my entire point). That's the kicker, and something Linux needs to catch up on. They're ridiculously annoying to set up, especially if you have unsupported hardware (and, considering the sheer number of hardware out there, that's pretty damn likely).

Ever tried to install a new video card using linux? I had a hell of a time with it, and I'm not exactly new at this.

Quote:
Originally posted by Caitlyn:
Since when are bugs in Internet Explorer, for example, not Microsoft's fault?

Since when does IE have a memory leak? It doesn't that I recall, though it is a bit of a memory hog.

If you're referring to "bugs" and not the leak your point was originally about, most of them are caused by third party plugins and modifications. aka: lazy programmers.

Quote:
Originally posted by Caitlyn:
Dead wrong. Microsoft is only 42% of the server market and servers are the richest target that do the most damage. Windows security (or lack thereof) is a joke and Windows is an easier target.

I'm not talking about servers; I'm talking about desktops. Did I not make that clear enough? The issue was about spyware, trojans, etc., which is a far greater adversary to a desktop than a server (in most cases, anyway).

A little bedtime reading for you regarding your beloved linux and its "airtight" security: http://www.us-cert.gov/cas/bulletins/SB2005.html
It's what happens when you get an uncoordinated community, often at each others throats, programming a bunch of addons.

Quote:
Originally posted by Caitlyn:
There are still critical flaws reported and Microsoft takes days to fix them.

And flaws are fixed instantly over linux, eh? You're striving for a silly point here.

Quote:
Originally posted by Caitlyn:
That is a major deficiency for a desktop OS, IMHO.

Some folks don't want to fiddle with the UI beyond changing the colours and whatnot. Mr. and Mrs. Everyday-PC-User, perhaps. Quite frankly, I don't have the time for it myself.

Quote:
Originally posted by Caitlyn:
None of which would change anything. Most home users who are on Windows are there because they don't know better.

They're there because that's what's supported, and it's easy. Which is the point in a home OS.

The problem with Mac's is that it's their way or the highway. You get a bundle made exclusively by them, or nothing. This spits in the face of the last 15 years of PC history regarding third parties, in my humble opinion.

The problem with Linux is ease of use. It's fine if you don't change anything and have a certified fellow install it for you; but what if you want to do something beyond browse the net and type in a wordprocessor? And heck, the utter lack of software support makes it a clear loser to those who don't want to have to worry about wether this piece of software is going to work on this distro or not!

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

LIMINALOSITY

Sunday, March 12, 2006 8:37 AM

I love my Mac. I think so daily. Never moreso than when I run into one of these discussion threads where you unfortunate PC owners share your expertise on how to unf^&ck a cranky PC you've just wasted your whole weekend with your head under the engine of, or been on hold for hours with some phone tech, trying to defrag or upgrade with crappy buggy third-rate software. (Sorry, I get all growly about the Microsoft evil empire. Bill's ethic pisses me off. I don't do business with companies whose ethics piss me off.)
I turn it on, it works. It never freezes, crashes, has temper tantrums, no magic smoke, no incompatable soft. I don't get virally infected, ever. Can you imagine? Not ever. No uninvited email either. I don't ever need to spend one minute figuring out what's wrong with my 'puter. I want new soft, more RAM, I click it in, I'm guided by voices, well, ok, little text boxes, thru the installation process. No problems ever. Photoshop? Painting programs? vector drawing, design, iMovie, Garage Band, iDVD on and on, it will let me do anything, everything, without messing around figuring out how to get from A-B. It's a dream to run. OSX Tiger and Photoshop CS2 are completely, beautifully searchable by keyword, so if I forget where I left my carkeys for crying out loud, I can find them with my Mac. I figure the time I save not needing to mess with my Mac has more than paid the difference between my machine and any souped up PC you care to flaunt.

I love my Mac.

Oh, yeah, free downloadable soft upgrades, limo service and breakfast in bed. More time to enjoy life. Are you converted yet?

Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.

SNEAKER98

Sunday, March 12, 2006 8:52 PM

Well, I hate to tell you this Liminalosity, but a Mac is just another version of a PC. It's susceptible to everything a Windows PC is. The difference is, right now, nobody who can do any damage cares about the OSX. Maybe if it becomes a larger market, but that's still not looking too likely.

Quote:
Originally posted by LIMINALOSITY:
trying to defrag

Windows has a handly little defrag program that's just one or two clicks. Norton has an even better one. If you're saying that Mac's aren't ever going to fragment their harddrive, guess again!

Quote:
Originally posted by LIMINALOSITY:
or upgrade with crappy buggy third-rate software

And that crappy,third rate software will hit the Apple, provided it ever becomes a larger market share. You can't blame Microsoft because some lazy programmers in some other company gave Windows a bad name.

Quote:
Originally posted by LIMINALOSITY:
(Sorry, I get all growly about the Microsoft evil empire. Bill's ethic pisses me off. I don't do business with companies whose ethics piss me off.)

That evil empire also saved Apple from bankruptcy.

Quote:
Originally posted by LIMINALOSITY:
no incompatable soft

Because you haven't run across something that wont work on the Mac. I'm guessing you don't play many games?

Quote:
Originally posted by LIMINALOSITY:
I figure the time I save not needing to mess with my Mac has more than paid the difference between my machine and any souped up PC you care to flaunt.

Lets just say that the easy time I've had with my windows box has been equivalent to your experience on a Mac. I don't remember the last time I've had a BSOD, nor any kind of outright crash. With SP2, Norton AntiVirus, and me not being an idiot on the internet, I haven't had any spyware or a virus in ages. My PC is custom to exactly what I wanted in a gaming machine, something you can't do on an Apple.

From what I hear about the OSX, it's the silky smooth OS for those who don't want to mess with anything ever. Nor want to play any games. That's fine, but that's really not for me. I don't want someone to give me an oddly shaped white box and tell me what the heck is in there; I want to put what I want in my desktop computer.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

RETROVERTIGO

Sunday, March 12, 2006 10:43 PM

Been a Linux geek for years, but I've been using Windows on my Dell Inspiron laptop because Linux doesn't play that nice with laptops, it's more of a server OS.

This laptop has been slowly withering away, however. USB controller dies randomly, the touch-screen doesn't work (forcing me to use a USB mouse, not too convenient when the USB controller randomly craps out as mentioned above). About a third of the CDs I burn get ruined, etc.

By the end of this week I will be the proud owner of a MacBook Pro, customized with an extra gig of RAM. And it will be good...

LIMINALOSITY

Monday, March 13, 2006 4:59 PM

Hey Sneaker... I do know a Mac isn't immune to fragmentation, they just don't much. Maybe some day some hacker will write poison for Macs, probably not unless they get a much bigger market share.
Yeah, I'm not much of a gamer, it's true. I've played some, but I'd much rather aim a pebble, pool cue, bow and arrow or a real gun at a target than play any pixelated game I've ever seen. I'm a painter/photog and I am amazed at the ease with which the art programs run on my Mac. Photoshop is as deep and wide as the ocean. You can sail on it, fish in it, dive in it, swim in it, and never get bored, because there's always something new to do. That's what I want my 'puter to do best - be slick and supportive of my work, and find me the one I named 'Paperdoll Karen' when I can't remember where I put it, allow mw to write, read on the net, make DVDs, give me searchable email, and all of this without needing to be a programmer. Glad you like yours for what you do as much as I like mine for what I do. I hear lots from folks who wish they didn't need to know so much about how to mess with a PC in order to just use it.

Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.

STDOUBT

Monday, March 13, 2006 8:00 PM

It's all very complicated...*

Windows: Children
Linux: Men
Mac: Women
-or-
Windows: Homo Habilis
Linux: Homo Sapien
Mac: Homo Sexual
-or-
Windows: Ford Taurus
Linux: Delorian (yes, the one from Back to the Future)
Mac: VW Jetta
-or-
Windows: Mrs. Howell
Linux: MaryAnn
Mac: Ginger
-or-
Windows: Budweiser
Linux: Microbrew
Mac: Corona
-or-
Windows: Christianity
Linux: Cryptozoology
Mac: Judao-Buddhism
-or-
Windows: Miranda
Linux: Persephone
Mac: Osiris
-or-
Windows: MTV
Linux: BBC
Mac: NPR
-or-
Windows: Bile
Linux: Juice of Safu
Mac: Water of Life
-or-
Windows: Kenny G.
Linux: They Might be Giants
Mac: Stevie Winwood
-or-
Windows: Steel Magnolias
Linux: The Matrix
Mac: Terms of Endearment
-or-
Windows: Chihuahua
Linux: Wolf
Mac: Poodle
-or-
Windows: Folgers' instant
Linux: Fair Trade/Shade Grown/Organic
Mac: Starbucks

*The BSDs aren't mentioned as they exist in a rarified stratum way above this brand of silliness ;]

DERANGEDMILK

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 2:29 AM

That was....entertaining to say the least.

I loves me my Mac!!! Never'd do windows.

While I hear people who have Macs talking about how they love them all the time, and people who use windows saying they hate macs all the time, I was just curious if any of you have ever heard a windows user talk about how they had switched over from mac and absolutely love it?
-e

"Storms getting worse."
"We'll pass through it soon enough."

RUXTON

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 8:12 AM

HAZE,

Am currently working with GIMP, after an entire day lost with Adobe buttheads. One so-called tech who turned out to be a salesman gave me wrong info on a trial version of Photoshop Elements (nearly 4 hours of download on DSL), which caused me to reinstall it, which voided the trial. I could therefore not even try it after all that time. When I asked another Adobe salesperson about it, I was told it's Adobe policy to NOT LET USERS KNOW that if they install, then uninstall and reinstall trial softwear it WON'T WORK. That attitude SUCKS. Earlier that day I did get one Adobe saleswoman who really knew her stuff, but after two hours we still could not make it work...unless I bought it.

So I went for the GIMP. It appears to be a very powerful program, and will do everything I need it to do. So thanks, Haze, for the tip.

STDOUBT, Very clever trilogies.

SNEAKER98

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 10:00 AM

Well liminalosity, then you're using a Mac for the exact reasons it's intended! All the best :)

Quote:
Originally posted by derangedmilk:
I loves me my Mac!!! Never'd do windows.

While I hear people who have Macs talking about how they love them all the time, and people who use windows saying they hate macs all the time, I was just curious if any of you have ever heard a windows user talk about how they had switched over from mac and absolutely love it?

Sure, in fact my brother is one of them. Since most folks actually started out on a PC due to Apple's extremely small userbase prior to OS9, those on a Mac (and loving it) tend to be former PC users.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

HAZE

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 2:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:
HAZE,

Am currently working with GIMP, after an entire day lost with Adobe buttheads. One so-called tech who turned out to be a salesman gave me wrong info on a trial version of Photoshop Elements (nearly 4 hours of download on DSL), which caused me to reinstall it, which voided the trial. I could therefore not even try it after all that time. When I asked another Adobe salesperson about it, I was told it's Adobe policy to NOT LET USERS KNOW that if they install, then uninstall and reinstall trial softwear it WON'T WORK. That attitude SUCKS. Earlier that day I did get one Adobe saleswoman who really knew her stuff, but after two hours we still could not make it work...unless I bought it.

So I went for the GIMP. It appears to be a very powerful program, and will do everything I need it to do. So thanks, Haze, for the tip.

STDOUBT, Very clever trilogies.

Glad I could help.

--------------------------------------------------
Who do you suppose is in there?

RETROVERTIGO

Thursday, March 16, 2006 3:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by derangedmilk:
That was....entertaining to say the least.

I loves me my Mac!!! Never'd do windows.

While I hear people who have Macs talking about how they love them all the time, and people who use windows saying they hate macs all the time, I was just curious if any of you have ever heard a windows user talk about how they had switched over from mac and absolutely love it?
-e

"Storms getting worse."
"We'll pass through it soon enough."

Well, I'm one of those people. Sort of. Raised on Windows, Linux by choice, but using Windows because Linux doesn't work that well with my laptop. My experiences with Mac OS X have been nothing short of spectacular. I don't have most of the same frustrations I do with Windows, and Macs haven't really made anything inconvenient for me (don't much care for PC gaming). It just works, and at the same time I get the ability to tool around with a command-line similar to what I use in Linux, compile open-source software, program, etc. It's really the best experience I've ever had in computing, and I'm on pins and needles waiting for my MacBook Pro to arrive (should hopefully arrive tomorrow).

SNEAKER98

Friday, March 17, 2006 9:39 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20060306/bs_nf/41948

Beware, OSX users. You were safe in a small market because the hacker response to OSX was "I don't care?". Apple hasn't had to deal with the widescale bombardment that windows has; we'll see how it does in comparison now that folks seem to think it's now the better option.

We live in interesting times! :)

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

RETROVERTIGO

Friday, March 17, 2006 10:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by sneaker98:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20060306/bs_nf/41948

Beware, OSX users. You were safe in a small market because the hacker response to OSX was "I don't care?". Apple hasn't had to deal with the widescale bombardment that windows has; we'll see how it does in comparison now that folks seem to think it's now the better option.

We live in interesting times! :)

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

That contest was pretty much a farce. They gave all the hackers local SSH access to the machine. Hackers trying to get at your Mac from the outside won't have this level of access, unless you're an idiot and give them your username and password, in which case you're gorram moron and deserve to get hacked.

CITIZEN

Friday, March 17, 2006 10:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Liminalosity:
Hey Sneaker... I do know a Mac isn't immune to fragmentation, they just don't much.

There's plenty of advantages to macs over PCs (less now their moving to Intels CISC...), this isn't one of them. Fragmentation is a property of the file management scheme and data through-put. The more you write to the disc the more fragmentation you're going to get.

Most UNIX (which is the basis for OSX) filesystems handle it better than Windows FAT or FAT32, since they tend to have better fitting algorithms, but NTFS is much better than FAT and there's not much in it.

However Windows may (not really looked at the statistics) write to the disk more often due to it's Virtual Memory and Paging schemes. Windows does seem to like writing to the disk.

Oh and I have Photoshop CS2 on my Windows box too

...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

LIMINALOSITY

Friday, March 17, 2006 6:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Intel

I guess busses and progress wait for no man, but this move to Intel may have some affect on the advantages of Mac.

Quote:
Oh and I have Photoshop CS2 on my Windows box too ...

I figured you have the CStoy, you have shiny and flashy to show for it.

Problems-wise in general, I'm happy. My experience with PC's has been significantly less stellar, and I don't see where that gets better... I'm thinking for example about how many times I've watched the random go all mr. fixit with you and Rel and N0S and a few others giving advice to sort a problem. I just don't have the interest in learning that much about how to fix a PC myself, and paying sucks, and waiting sucks, and pestering friends to help sucks. I'd rather pester my friends to go out for a beer.... and talk about something more fun than how to fix an 8-trak computer.

Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.

CITIZEN

Friday, March 17, 2006 6:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Liminalosity:
I guess busses and progress wait for no man, but this move to Intel may have some affect on the advantages of Mac.

Getting rid of a big chunk of them for one...

Also, since I believe MS, or at least Billy boy, owns the majority share of Apple I can see the possibillity of a Windows for Mac now that the retooling shouldn't be too extreme...

Be afraid, be very afraid.

In Windows no one can hear you Ctrl-Alt-Del...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

HAZE

Friday, March 17, 2006 6:55 PM

I’m quite looking forward to the arrival of my Ubuntu Cds. I’ve been reading a lot about it and if I where to go with Linux it seems like the distro for me.

And even if I don’t I will fell a lot better knowing a have another OS sitting on my shelf ready to go if anything happens.

The opensource movement is a very interesting thing.

--------------------------------------------------
Who do you suppose is in there?

LIMINALOSITY

Friday, March 17, 2006 7:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen: Also, since I believe MS, or at least Billy boy, owns the majority share of Apple I can see the possibillity of a Windows for Mac now that the retooling shouldn't be too extreme...

Windows for Mac! The The Borg-ification of Mac. I can hear the buzz saws now. Oh, Cit, I am wailing with the horror of that idea. yuck. Yeah, this Intel deal makes me nervous, I am the prowd owner of my very own shiny silver mylar hat of deep suspicion of those who seek to wield enormous power, and Billy Boy is pretty high on that list.

Quote:
In Windows no one can hear you Ctrl-Alt-Del...

ROFLMbuttO Ok, this one will make my day, thank you very much

Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.

SNEAKER98

Friday, March 17, 2006 7:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by retrovertigo:
Quote:
Originally posted by sneaker98:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20060306/bs_nf/41948

Beware, OSX users. You were safe in a small market because the hacker response to OSX was "I don't care?". Apple hasn't had to deal with the widescale bombardment that windows has; we'll see how it does in comparison now that folks seem to think it's now the better option.

We live in interesting times! :)

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

That contest was pretty much a farce. They gave all the hackers local SSH access to the machine. Hackers trying to get at your Mac from the outside won't have this level of access, unless you're an idiot and give them your username and password, in which case you're gorram moron and deserve to get hacked.

Doesn't look like it to me. Can you link me to an explanation?

A few interesting things came out of that article, regardless of wether it was a farce or not. For instance, the browser was set by default to run compressed files automatically? Sounds like a lesson Microsoft learned, but Apple hasn't.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1932659,00.asp
Another very interesting article. Mac had more software flaws than Windows in 2005, albeit windows had 5 or 10 more critical flaws than Mac.

Remember, folks. Pretty != Flawless and Secure. The OSX has yet to be properly tested in the real world.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

RETROVERTIGO

Friday, March 17, 2006 7:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sneaker98:
Quote:
Doesn't look like it to me. Can you link me to an explanation?

Certainly:

http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/06/1446207

The Mac will see its share of bugs in the next couple years, as it gains market share. But it has a LONG way to go before it approaches Windows territory. I know how to protect a computer, so I'm not all that worried.

Now, if only my blasted MacBook would arrive! It's been delayed at least another week.

SNEAKER98

Friday, March 17, 2006 7:44 PM

You may; but does Apple? ;)

They really, really don't have a lot of experience in a widescale OS market. If the ipod's were hooked up to a wireless all the time, then yeah. But they're not, and thus aren't attackable on that scale.

OSX will be Apple's proving ground. And it's already starting out badly.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

SIGMANUNKI

Friday, March 17, 2006 9:17 PM

Grew up using dos and later moving onto windows only after much kicking and screaming; never was I comfortable with that.

After a bit, I found Linux and was happy but still not totally comfortable.

Then came OpenBSD. HOME!!!

Also, since I got my Mac mini, I've been using OSX on and off. Find it pretty good. MUCH better than windows ever was/will be (IMO that is).

At any rate, I'm sticking with Apple from now on. Even though they're switching to Intel (I feel gutted ).

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

SIMONWHO

Friday, March 17, 2006 10:21 PM

You forgot one:

Windows: Star Trek
Linux: Doctor Who
Mac: Firefly

SILVERSAMURAI

Friday, March 17, 2006 11:34 PM

Mac user here. No way would I return to windows full time.
I was born and raised on windows, but man, I got so sick of fixing things all the time.

I love my 20" iMac.

RETROVERTIGO

Saturday, March 18, 2006 7:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by sneaker98:
You may; but does Apple? ;)

They really, really don't have a lot of experience in a widescale OS market. If the ipod's were hooked up to a wireless all the time, then yeah. But they're not, and thus aren't attackable on that scale.

OSX will be Apple's proving ground. And it's already starting out badly.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

They may not have been as concerned, but that recent bug in Safari really seemed to have lit a fire under their asses. It's unlikely that they'll continue with that same level of complacency given their expected rise in market share.

SNEAKER98

Saturday, March 18, 2006 7:38 PM

I feel it might be prudent to clarify where exactly I stand with regards to operating systems.

It might suprise you to know that I consider Windows to be the lesser of three evils. While I do know all the "tricks" that keep me safe (basic ones such as not to open silly emails, and not so basic ones such as registry scanning and msconfig), I'm aware that that's not good enough for the general public.

I have, however, discovered an excellent OS that works well for me: Solaris, from Sun Microsystems. Though I haven't had the time to fully explore a *nix environment due to work and classes, I'm absolutely loving it. It's currently on a dual boot on my laptop.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

CITIZEN

Saturday, March 18, 2006 7:46 PM

Well out of interest I'm currently trying out Ubuntu. I'm currently replying to this thread while running it (just the Live CD, so it's a bit slow, I'll try the full install at some point). The graphics and text look good and the usabillity is better than other versions (like Red Hat).

One day I'm really going to try and get that OS I keep saying I'm going to write running...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

RETROVERTIGO

Saturday, March 18, 2006 8:00 PM

Solaris isn't just any *NIX. It used to be UNIX. It's a proprietary branch of the old AT&T SysV version of UNIX. Never ran it on my personal machine, but the computer science dept where I went to college ran a SunOS (Solaris without the GUI) server I used to SSH into to do homework for my C programming class.

As far as Windows being the lesser of three evils, I don't get the logic. If all you care about is user-friendliness, then I get it. I've never experienced problems moving/deleting files in Linux or Mac because the OS still thinks the file's in use. Hell, the simple fact that the number one solution to most problems is to reboot the computer is proof positive that Windows is completely inadequate when it comes to resource management.

RETROVERTIGO

Saturday, March 18, 2006 8:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Well out of interest I'm currently trying out Ubuntu. I'm currently replying to this thread while running it (just the Live CD, so it's a bit slow, I'll try the full install at some point). The graphics and text look good and the usabillity is better than other versions (like Red Hat).

One day I'm really going to try and get that OS I keep saying I'm going to write running...

Ubuntu is pretty solid, from what I've heard. It's based off of Debian, which is as solid of a distro as you'll see. I haven't used it myself, but it's become pretty much the standard for the Linux workstations where I work. I may try it out on my next test machine.

SNEAKER98

Saturday, March 18, 2006 8:55 PM

As far as Windows being the lesser of three evils, I don't get the logic. If all you care about is user-friendliness, then I get it.
Yes, and no. It's not about about what "I" care about; it's the purpose of a home OS: EASE. I don't neccessarily need that ease, and perhaps neither do you; but in a general argument about OS's, you have to keep that in mind. Users don't want to piddle about with "Will this software be able to run on my OS?" if they're using OSX, nor do they want to have to fiddle with just about everything to get a linux distro actually working.

Which, right now, makes windows the option for a home user. Plain and simple.

I've never experienced problems moving/deleting files in Linux or Mac because the OS still thinks the file's in use. Hell, the simple fact that the number one solution to most problems is to reboot the computer is proof positive that Windows is completely inadequate when it comes to resource management.
Most of the times that occurs, it's not any fault of the OS. It's because the programmer didn't clean up his program when it closed down.

It's stuff like this that overexaggerates Microsoft's blame for overexaggerated problems of Windows XP.

Solaris isn't just any *NIX. It used to be UNIX. It's a proprietary branch of the old AT&T SysV version of UNIX.
Eh, there's so many flavours of unix and linux, it's usually just best to generalize them all with *nix due to similarities.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

RETROVERTIGO

Saturday, March 18, 2006 9:49 PM

Yes, and no. It's not about about what "I" care about; it's the purpose of a home OS: EASE. I don't neccessarily need that ease, and perhaps neither do you; but in a general argument about OS's, you have to keep that in mind. Users don't want to piddle about with "Will this software be able to run on my OS?" if they're using OSX, nor do they want to have to fiddle with just about everything to get a linux distro actually working.

Which, right now, makes windows the option for a home user. Plain and simple.

I guess we just differ on what the purpose of an OS is. You say "ease", I disagree. Functionality is more important to me than ease of use.

Most of the times that occurs, it's not any fault of the OS. It's because the programmer didn't clean up his program when it closed down.

It's stuff like this that overexaggerates Microsoft's blame for overexaggerated problems of Windows XP.

Most of the time? I doubt it. I'm sure it's a factor, but I've seen it happen with all manner of software, ESPECIALLY Microsoft software.

SNEAKER98

Saturday, March 18, 2006 9:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by retrovertigo:
I guess we just differ on what the purpose of an OS is. You say "ease", I disagree. Functionality is more important to me than ease of use.

A true linux user.

Ask yourself this: what good is functionality if I don't know how to use it?

Quote:
Originally posted by retrovertigo:
Most of the time? I doubt it. I'm sure it's a factor, but I've seen it happen with all manner of software, ESPECIALLY Microsoft software.

Well, considering I'm the fellow who would craft said programs, I wouldn't doubt it one bit. There's plenty of ways that I can leave something floating in memory, or forget to clean up a binary stream, etc etc.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

RETROVERTIGO

Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sneaker98:
A true linux user.

Ask yourself this: what good is functionality if I don't know how to use it?

The ignorance of others isn't my fault.

j/k... I understand where you're coming from, but you're speaking from a standpoint of what's better for the unwashed masses, while I'm going on my personal opinion.

Quote:
Originally posted by sneaker98:
Well, considering I'm the fellow who would craft said programs, I wouldn't doubt it one bit. There's plenty of ways that I can leave something floating in memory, or forget to clean up a binary stream, etc etc.

I've done my fair share of programming, both in Linux and in Windows. The difference between the two operating systems is that when you have a memory leak in Linux, killing the offending process actually rectifies the problem, whereas in Windows you're pretty much resigned to rebooting even if you are able to kill the process. This brings me back to the issue of resource management. Windows is terrible at it, plain and simple. It's leaps and bounds better than it was prior to the introduction of the NT/2000 kernel, but it's still got a long way to go before it even approaches the neighborhood of its competitors.

I do have good things to say about Microsoft, however. They're miles above anyone else as far as synergy goes. Media Center and their backend server apps (Microsoft Provisioning System, etc.) are amazing. They're absolute hogs when it comes to memory and disk space, and they can tend to take a lot of work to keep running smoothly, but they're phenomenal achievements in synergy.

SNEAKER98

Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by retrovertigo:
The ignorance of others isn't my fault.

And there, folks, you have the exact reason why I hate Linux.

Its community. Its community gets so full of itself and their computer abilities. It's folks like this that think we should go back to the PARC labs era of OS's.

It angers me to no end because they've lost sight of exactly why operating systems came into the public market.

Quote:
Originally posted by retrovertigo:
j/k... I understand where you're coming from, but you're speaking from a standpoint of what's better for the unwashed masses, while I'm going on my personal opinion.

I don't think you're actually kidding.

Of course I'm arguing about the masses. As I said, in a general argument about OS's, which this is, you have to keep them in mind.

If there wasn't the masses, we wouldn't have computers. There certainly wouldn't be an service providers, and no one would bother making any hardware, let alone such niceities as games, word processors, etc.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

SIGMANUNKI

Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:29 PM

@RetroVertigo:
"""
I've never experienced problems moving/deleting files in Linux or Mac because the OS still thinks the file's in use.
"""

Never?

"""
It's based off of Debian, which is as solid of a distro as you'll see.
"""

What about Slackware?

@Sneaker98:
"""
Users don't want to piddle about with "Will this software be able to run on my OS?" if they're using OSX,
"""

This is basically M$ propaganda at work. I've never not been able to do something because I was running OSX, never. And that goes from writing my code to any user land application that I could think of.

In fact, I'm really wondering what I'm supposed to be missing running OSX. Because, I really don't see it. That is, aside from the fact that a good portion of games aren't ported to OSX. But, that is changing, and exactly what consoles are for.

"""
nor do they want to have to fiddle with just about everything to get a linux distro actually working.
"""

And some more propaganda.

Most (all?) modern Linux distro's come with pretty much everything you'll need already installed. In fact, about 5 years ago, when I last installed a Linux, the installer was as freindly as the windows installer.

Esentially, if you are Joe User and don't need to custom anything, Linux is pretty much as easy to use as windows.

The only point that you might have here is the learning curve to a new system. But, last time I checked, that was true for the first time people used windows as well.

"""
Most of the times that occurs, it's not any fault of the OS. It's because the programmer didn't clean up his program when it closed down.
"""

I've run into this problem, but it doesn't last. As in, I move to trash and I get the error. But, I wait a moment or two and move to trash again, and it works.

I've never had the problem persist.

"""
It's stuff like this that overexaggerates Microsoft's blame for overexaggerated problems of Windows XP.
"""

Perhaps you should check out the long list of bugs that M$ has generated in the OS itself and not 3rd party software.

"""
Ask yourself this: what good is functionality if I don't know how to use it?
"""

You yourself this: what good is functionality if I can't use it because I'm constantly having to reboot my machine?

"""
Well, considering I'm the fellow who would craft said programs, I wouldn't doubt it one bit. There's plenty of ways that I can leave something floating in memory, or forget to clean up a binary stream, etc etc.
"""

As someone else that is a programmer, if you are in industry and is able to produce this many bugs, you are so incompetent that you should be fired and never allowed to code another line again. Not saying that you in particular are, just stating a fact.

And the fact of the matter is that people writing code for M$ really seem to embody this mentality. I've never had a program run smooth on a windows machine.

Also, to your comment prior in the thread, windows 3.1 is not an OS. It is a program that ran on top of DOS which was the OS.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

RETROVERTIGO

Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:34 PM

Stone faced, 'till the last, eh?

I don't recall this being a "general argument about OS's". The thread starter ask people to give their thoughts on their favorite OS, and I've done so. So far as I've seen, you're the only one trying to steer this into a discussion about what's good for the mainstream.

Hell, if you want to talk about what's good for the masses, as a support rep I've personally talked to nearly a dozen people who have gone from Windows to Mac and aren't regretful in the least. One thing that Apple does which Microsoft doesn't is they provide a searchable list of applications, both first and third party, right on their website. They've made it easy for people to find, and in many cases download directly from their site, all manner of software, for damn near every aspect of their computing needs. The software's out there, and Apple's gone above and beyond the call to educate their users. Of course, a cynic (which I'm known for being) might say that this is a calculated plot to get people to switch, but A) it's working, and B) if ease is the mark of a good OS, Apple's on the right track.

RETROVERTIGO

Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:39 PM

Never?

Never.

What about Slackware?

It's my flavor of choice, that's what. Been a Slacker since 4.0.

SNEAKER98

Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:40 PM

This is basically M$ propaganda at work. I've never not been able to do something because I was running OSX, never. And that goes from writing my code to any user land application that I could think of.

In fact, I'm really wondering what I'm supposed to be missing running OSX. Because, I really don't see it. That is, aside from the fact that a good portion of games aren't ported to OSX. But, that is changing, and exactly what consoles are for.
As I recall, you use the OSX exactly as intended; the software you need is already there and made for mac's.

But, the vast vast majority of games for instance, do not work on a Mac. And the vast majority of programs do not work either. That's just how it is.

And some more propaganda.

Most (all?) modern Linux distro's come with pretty much everything you'll need already installed. In fact, about 5 years ago, when I last installed a Linux, the installer was as freindly as the windows installer.

Esentially, if you are Joe User and don't need to custom anything, Linux is pretty much as easy to use as windows.

The only point that you might have here is the learning curve to a new system. But, last time I checked, that was true for the first time people used windows as well.
Let me put it this way: I'm not exactly new at computers. But suffice it to say, I had a hell of a time installing Suse 9 on my desktop. Half of the software I had to get third party, and I had a hell of a time getting my network card to actually be detected and get online. Let alone installing the proper libraries and whatnot.

As for windows? I've installed it over 20 times now, and it's incredibly simple. As it has to be.

Perhaps you should check out the long list of bugs that M$ has generated in the OS itself and not 3rd party software.
There's certainly a long list of bugs; problem is, OSX's was longer in 2005 ;)

You yourself this: what good is functionality if I can't use it because I'm constantly having to reboot my machine?
I can't remember the last time I had to reboot my machine mid-use. An overexaggerated problem.

As someone else that is a programmer, if you are in industry and is able to produce this many bugs, you are so incompetent that you should be fired and never allowed to code another line again. Not saying that you in particular are, just stating a fact.
Do you recall Sony's rootkit? A company by the name of First4Internet I believe made the crappiest, shittiest, lamest piece of code to ensure copywrite protection. And it got into thousands of peoples computers.

These things happen all the time, and it only takes one to screw up your PC all to hell.

Also, to your comment prior in the thread, windows 3.1 is not an OS. It is a program that ran on top of DOS which was the OS.
Now, if I say I used DOS as an OS, who the heck would know what I was saying aside from using command lines and a smattering of 8bit games?

One thing that Apple does which Microsoft doesn't is they provide a searchable list of applications, both first and third party, right on their website.
Well... Microsoft doesn't exactly need to, do they!

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

SNEAKER98

Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:40 PM

This is basically M$ propaganda at work. I've never not been able to do something because I was running OSX, never. And that goes from writing my code to any user land application that I could think of.

In fact, I'm really wondering what I'm supposed to be missing running OSX. Because, I really don't see it. That is, aside from the fact that a good portion of games aren't ported to OSX. But, that is changing, and exactly what consoles are for.
As I recall, you use the OSX exactly as intended; the software you need is already there and made for mac's.

But, the vast vast majority of games for instance, do not work on a Mac. And the vast majority of programs do not work either. That's just how it is.

And some more propaganda.

Most (all?) modern Linux distro's come with pretty much everything you'll need already installed. In fact, about 5 years ago, when I last installed a Linux, the installer was as freindly as the windows installer.

Esentially, if you are Joe User and don't need to custom anything, Linux is pretty much as easy to use as windows.

The only point that you might have here is the learning curve to a new system. But, last time I checked, that was true for the first time people used windows as well.
Let me put it this way: I'm not exactly new at computers. But suffice it to say, I had a hell of a time installing Suse 9 on my desktop. Half of the software I had to get third party, and I had a hell of a time getting my network card to actually be detected and get online. Let alone installing the proper libraries and whatnot.

As for windows? I've installed it over 20 times now, and it's incredibly simple. As it has to be.

Perhaps you should check out the long list of bugs that M$ has generated in the OS itself and not 3rd party software.
There's certainly a long list of bugs; problem is, OSX's was longer in 2005 ;)

You yourself this: what good is functionality if I can't use it because I'm constantly having to reboot my machine?
I can't remember the last time I had to reboot my machine mid-use. An overexaggerated problem.

As someone else that is a programmer, if you are in industry and is able to produce this many bugs, you are so incompetent that you should be fired and never allowed to code another line again. Not saying that you in particular are, just stating a fact.
Do you recall Sony's rootkit? A company by the name of First4Internet I believe made the crappiest, shittiest, lamest piece of code to ensure copywrite protection. And it got into thousands of peoples computers.

These things happen all the time, and it only takes one to screw up your PC all to hell.

Also, to your comment prior in the thread, windows 3.1 is not an OS. It is a program that ran on top of DOS which was the OS.
Now, if I say I used DOS as an OS, who the heck would know what I was saying aside from using command lines and a smattering of 8bit games?

One thing that Apple does which Microsoft doesn't is they provide a searchable list of applications, both first and third party, right on their website.
Well... Microsoft doesn't exactly need to, do they!

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

CITIZEN

Saturday, March 18, 2006 11:10 PM

You see I don't get why things can't be solid and easy too use and run lots of Software. Running lots of Software means emulating the Windows API at the moment, which would be lots of work but not 'hard' if you already had a solid operating system.

Likewise, ease of use isn't hard, just get the OS to do everything for you, make that scaleable and Geeks will be happy too...

Way I see it Linux is an OS by Geeks for Geeks, as such its perfect for what it is. But I think if you had an OS by Geeks for the type of people who look for the 'any key' and run Windows software we may actually be moving towards something good, like the death of MS Windows.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, March 19, 2006 12:48 AM

@Sneaker98:
"""
But, the vast vast majority of games for instance, do not work on a Mac. And the vast majority of programs do not work either. That's just how it is.
"""

So, then only M$ Office can edit .doc? By saying these things, you are implying things that are provably false ie the previous sentence.

"""
Let me put it this way: I'm not exactly new at computers. But suffice it to say, I had a hell of a time installing Suse 9 on my desktop. Half of the software I had to get third party, and I had a hell of a time getting my network card to actually be detected and get online. Let alone installing the proper libraries and whatnot.

As for windows? I've installed it over 20 times now, and it's incredibly simple. As it has to be.
"""

There are other distro's aside from Suse you know. And as for using your experience with one distro to prove that Linux is hard to install... sophistry.

Also, how many Joe User's out there are actually going to install there OS? Pretty much none. It is the exception to the rule that this is happening. Joe User is going to take his/her computer down to the place that (s)he bought it from to get it fixed. Not do it themselves.

"""
There's certainly a long list of bugs; problem is, OSX's was longer in 2005 ;)
"""

Cherry picking the year then? And how many critical errors?

Wait a minute. You said this previously in the thread "
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1932659,00.asp
Another very interesting article. Mac had more software flaws than Windows in 2005, albeit windows had 5 or 10 more critical flaws than Mac.
"

Now call me crazy, but I don't really care much about flaws that'll make a program crash from time to time (though that is irritating). I really care about the flaws that'll really screw me. And by your own admition, M$ had more than OSX in 2005.

I'd imagine that most users have the same view point.

"""
I can't remember the last time I had to reboot my machine mid-use. An overexaggerated problem.
"""

My parents would disagree. Along with one of my buddies that has to have two system setups because he needs one video driver to play a couple games and another for everything else.

Yah, stable OS

"""
Do you recall Sony's rootkit? A company by the name of First4Internet I believe made the crappiest, shittiest, lamest piece of code to ensure copywrite protection. And it got into thousands of peoples computers.

These things happen all the time, and it only takes one to screw up your PC all to hell.
"""

Please describe you point.

"""
Now, if I say I used DOS as an OS, who the heck would know what I was saying aside from using command lines and a smattering of 8bit games?
"""

You're the one who called it an OS not me. Which as I pointed out is a fallacy. Also, Mechwarrior 2 was a DOS game, along with several Wing Commanders (upto 4 I believe). So, saying DOS only has "a smattering of 8bit games" has be proven false. It also proves you ignorance in this area.

----
I'd also link to know how you think that it's ok for you to trash OSX given that you've said the below.

"""
I'm not about to trash an operating system if I don't have experience on it. (For future ref, I've used windows 3.1, 95, 98, 98SE, 2k, XP, as well as OS9, SuSe, Redhat, and am currently dual-booting with Solaris and WinXP)
"""

OS9. Hm, OSX is not in the list. Hypocrite anyone?

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, March 19, 2006 12:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

You see I don't get why things can't be solid and easy too use and run lots of Software. Running lots of Software means emulating the Windows API at the moment, which would be lots of work but not 'hard' if you already had a solid operating system.

WINE comes to mind. I've even heard of people running World Of Warcraft under it!

http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/15/1334241

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

CITIZEN

Sunday, March 19, 2006 1:19 AM

Yeah WINE I've heard good things.

I'm thinking built directly into the OS though, so there's no (or little) performance hit and the OS can run Win32 straight out of the box.

I refrenced earlier the idea of writing an OS from the ground up, I still want to do it, I have a name at least (Portal, for port all...) but I'm no fool, the semantics for creating it are pretty staggering.

You need big teams to create something like that ...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

TIGER

Sunday, March 19, 2006 2:38 AM

I've been watching this thread with great interest. I'm no expert in operating systems, but I've been curious for a while about experimenting with something new, strictly from a user's perspective.

Unfortunately, in this thread one guy says "A" and the next guy says "B". Maybe it would shed some light on the subject if you have a more specific, real-world example, namely me. Should I try Linux or a Mac?

My current system:
Windows XP sp2
1 gb RAM
200 gb storage
2.4 mhz Pentium 4
dual monitors

Normal usage:
Firefox & I.E.
Email with Thunderbird
Graphic/web design with Dreamweaver, Photoshop/Illustrator, Flash
Hauppaugge TV tuner with Beyond TV to watch TV on one monitor while working or surfing on the other
Bittorrents
DVDs/music with Windows Media or VLC
Microsoft Office
DVD burning with Nero

Do you think I'd get along alright with Linux or a Mac? Would it be worth the trouble of switching and relearning?

SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, March 19, 2006 2:45 AM

@Tiger:
It's probably take a lot of tweaking in Linux to get all that stuff working properly. So, for an end user, I'd suggest trying Mac first.

I believe that there are ways to get OSX to work on a PC though I haven't tried it myself (YMMV). It might be something to try first (or just going into a Mac store and playing ).

That's my 2 cents at least

EDIT:
"""
Would it be worth the trouble of switching and relearning?
"""

Depends on you, on what you actually do with it. Depends on how much you like the new OS. This is a question only you can answer.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, March 19, 2006 2:48 AM

@Citizen:
Don't think that we'll see it in our day.

*sigh*

Then again, perhaps if you build it, they will come...

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

SNEAKER98

Sunday, March 19, 2006 9:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:So, then only M$ Office can edit .doc? By saying these things, you are implying things that are provably false ie the previous sentence.

Actually give me a reasonable list, or don't even bother responding to the point.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:There are other distro's aside from Suse you know. And as for using your experience with one distro to prove that Linux is hard to install... sophistry.

Might want to re-read my list. I've done more than just Suse; that's simply an example.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:Also, how many Joe User's out there are actually going to install there OS? Pretty much none. It is the exception to the rule that this is happening. Joe User is going to take his/her computer down to the place that (s)he bought it from to get it fixed. Not do it themselves.

More than you think. And why shouldn't they, if it's a breeze? Windows sure as heck is. *nix sure isn't. And OSX would be, I'm assuming, because they only use their own hardware in their neat little box (my main beef).

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:Now call me crazy, but I don't really care much about flaws that'll make a program crash from time to time (though that is irritating). I really care about the flaws that'll really screw me. And by your own admition, M$ had more than OSX in 2005.

I'd imagine that most users have the same view point.

But then my point would be right over your head, wouldn't it? Folks are touting OSX as the flawless piece of software; point was, it's not.

But congrats on missing the point.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:My parents would disagree. Along with one of my buddies that has to have two system setups because he needs one video driver to play a couple games and another for everything else.

Yah, stable OS

Then what the hell have they installed on their computer? Probably some crappy third party software which is doing it.

As for your buddy; guess who's fault that is? Gee, wouldn't it be the maker of that driver, which isn't windows? Yeah, I think so.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:Please describe you point.

Sony made a piece of shit program? It hid all files with the names beginning with "sys_" from the OS, thus allowing virii to piggyback on top. And even more, if you tried to uninstall it, it would corrupt the driver for your cd/dvd player.

Thought the point was obvious, though. There's a lot of crappy third party stuff out there, which windows gets the blame for.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:You're the one who called it an OS not me. Which as I pointed out is a fallacy. Also, Mechwarrior 2 was a DOS game, along with several Wing Commanders (upto 4 I believe). So, saying DOS only has "a smattering of 8bit games" has be proven false. It also proves you ignorance in this area.

I'm taking one thing out of this argument: you're a jackass, with absolutely no concept of flair to make a point. You're so desperate to make a damned point that you'll turn this into a pissing contest.

No dice.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:I'd also link to know how you think that it's ok for you to trash OSX given that you've said the below.

You might want to reread what context that was in (someone calling WinXP buggy while stating he hadn't used it since 98), and what I've actually said about OSX. I'll quote some experts, and link to some articles, but I'm not about to trash it for a point that requires some use out of it.

But, of course, if you actually went a reread what I've said, you wouldn't be able to be a jackass and call me a hypocrit. And where's the fun in that?

Linux users. They always turn it into one big pissing contest about their abilities. Man it gets old arguing with some of these folks.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

RETROVERTIGO

Sunday, March 19, 2006 5:22 PM

Hey now, don't go lumping him in with me. I'm not interested in making this any kind of pissing contest. I haven't resorted to name calling.

SNEAKER98

Sunday, March 19, 2006 5:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by retrovertigo:
Hey now, don't go lumping him in with me. I'm not interested in making this any kind of pissing contest. I haven't resorted to name calling.

Fair enough, I apologize to you. I did generalize linux users a bit too unfairly.

This isn't the first time I've had this kind of argument with a linux user. Nor will it be the last.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

RETROVERTIGO

Sunday, March 19, 2006 5:49 PM

Thanks.

I'd like to address your comments on how the majority of software is for Windows-- I think this is more a function of market share than anything else. You can obtain software to do just about anything you can do in Windows for Mac OS, and (thanks to its open-source friendliness) many things you can't do in Windows without purchasing or pirating expensive software.

There's been a real groundswell of developers who have seen the writing on the wall and started developing for the Mac since OS X was released. Native versions of the Unreal Tournament and World of Warcraft series are prime examples.

SNEAKER98

Sunday, March 19, 2006 6:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by retrovertigo:
I'd like to address your comments on how the majority of software is for Windows-- I think this is more a function of market share than anything else.

Well, of course it is! I don't think I've given any illusions to it being otherwise.

It recieved this larger market share because arguable, in the beginning, it was indeed the better option for an OS. Does this neccessarily still apply? We honestly don't know. Neither linux, nor OSX has had the hacker attention that XP has.

Quote:
Originally posted by retrovertigo:
You can obtain software to do just about anything you can do in Windows for Mac OS, and (thanks to its open-source friendliness) many things you can't do in Windows without purchasing or pirating expensive software.

Ah, but there is a few problems with open source. Sometimes, you have a great bunch of folks who are really coordinated and can produce a great project. But, sometimes, you get a POS. A really big, stinkin' POS.

Also, who do you think pays for open source when it's company based (ie: tomcat, looking glass, etc)? Their private software licences.

A third problem, and mostly applies to larger businesses: who exactly is going to support your product? For a home user, it may work out provided the answer to your question is in a newsgroup somewhere. But your best bet is to cross your fingers and hope to god Google finds the answer. And that's really not good enough sometimes.

Quote:
Originally posted by retrovertigo:
There's been a real groundswell of developers who have seen the writing on the wall and started developing for the Mac since OS X was released. Native versions of the Unreal Tournament and World of Warcraft series are prime examples.

Well sure, with a larger market share, I'm not suprised that there's more OSX applications coming out.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

RETROVERTIGO

Sunday, March 19, 2006 7:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sneaker98:
Well, of course it is! I don't think I've given any illusions to it being otherwise.

It recieved this larger market share because arguable, in the beginning, it was indeed the better option for an OS. Does this neccessarily still apply? We honestly don't know. Neither linux, nor OSX has had the hacker attention that XP has.

I'm pretty psyched to see what the next couple years bring to Mac OS, and I think that Apple won't sit idly by after the recent Safari bug. Their reaction was pretty dramatic, they pushed their developers to find any bug they could, and released a patch fixing about 20 bugs. I think they know that this is their shot to really make a dent here, and they're not about to squander it with complacency. Only time will tell.

Quote:
Originally posted by sneaker98:
Ah, but there is a few problems with open source. Sometimes, you have a great bunch of folks who are really coordinated and can produce a great project. But, sometimes, you get a POS. A really big, stinkin' POS.

Yes, but this is true of commercial applications as well. The ones that are terrible are rooted out because they just flat out don't work.

Quote:
Originally posted by sneaker98:
Also, who do you think pays for open source when it's company based (ie: tomcat, looking glass, etc)? Their private software licences.

True, but on the whole open-source solutions are cheaper, this can't be disputed. If I gave the impression that open source = completely free, that was not my intent.

Quote:
Originally posted by sneaker98:
A third problem, and mostly applies to larger businesses: who exactly is going to support your product? For a home user, it may work out provided the answer to your question is in a newsgroup somewhere. But your best bet is to cross your fingers and hope to god Google finds the answer. And that's really not good enough sometimes.

I work for a large company myself, and we get by using Linux and open-source on a fairly large scale. The amount of money that can be saved is actually quite staggering, and allows us to employ people capable of maintaining our open-source apps while still maintaining a profit margin that continues to grow, year after year.

SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, March 19, 2006 8:35 PM

You know what? My first post was one in which I complete tore apart Sneaker98's argument. (s)he's posts are nothing but sophistry, personal attacks and unsubtanitated claims. (S)he was the first to put out the "I'm a programmer so I know what I'm talking about" etc stuff, not me. And I allowed myself to be pulled into that childish pissing contest.

Now I see that. So, here's the second attempt.

I am not a Linux user.

OpenOffice is cross-platform and can edit any M$ Office files. For other software that can be used to do many other things on OSX I've found versiontracker ( http://www.versiontracker.com/macosx/) to be a great resource along with google.

Sneaker98's list includes 3 *NIX's ( http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=11&t=17589&m=269814#265281). Hardly making him/her an expert.

Just because an OS is easy to install doesn't mean the average user is aware of that, nor does it mean that they'll actually do it. And in my experience, only the techie's will install OS's and will do so for there non-techie friends. These are hardly Joe User types.

Also, the variety of hardware or lack thereof does not have anything to do with how easy an OS is to install. The ease comes from the interface that the installer has and it's organization, not what is underneth.

And to say that Apple uses there own hardware is misleading. An example of this is that Apple uses ATI video cards. Other examples can be found in the hw specs for the various Mac systems.

I've never come across anyone who touts OSX as a flawless piece of software and I know me so I'm certainly not one of them.

About the drivers I mentioned above. The problem would be the result of a 3rd party iff both drivers were 3rd party. Point of fact, one of them was the one that came with windows, which would now make it a M$ problem. Sneaker98, you should really stop making such baseless assumptions.

Although M$ does get some blame for shoddy 3rd party software, this in no way implies that M$ makes good software, nor a good OS. In fact, one only needs to go to security focus ( http://www.securityfocus.com/)) and look through the mailing list archives for proof that M$ windows has never been a good OS.

"Security is decided by quality" - Theo de Raadt

I did not turn this into a pissing contest. That first stone was thrown by Sneaker98 when (s)he said, "Well, considering I'm the fellow who would craft said programs," ( http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=11&t=17589&m=269814#269316). You don't try to pull rank in a place like FFFs.net as you are guarentted to have at least a dozen others with your qualifications and/or better to come down on you if you are making silly statments (which (s)he is doing here).

The people that I'm talking about have basically only M$ software on there computers. To blaim all or most of windows problems on 3rd party software is fallacious to say the least. And another really bad assumption.

When someone says that they won't trash an OS if they haven't used it, and then goes and trashes it even though they haven't used it, that makes tham a hypocrite, regardless of context in which it is said. Sneaker98, if you want to dispute that, then you're going to have to do better than just saying "you're wrong." Justify it (that goes for everything else here as well).

Point of fact, Sneaker98 has been rude to me:
"you're a jackass," ( http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=11&t=17589&m=269814#269591)

RetroVertigo:
"
And there, folks, you have the exact reason why I hate Linux.

Its community.
" ( http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=11&t=17589&m=269814#969324)

implying RetroVertigo is one of the problems:

and Caitlyn:
"
A little bedtime reading for you regarding your beloved linux and its "airtight" security:
" ( http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=11&t=17589&m=269814#265668)

at least.

All the posts that I've read from Sneaker98 has been very agressive in tone and quite condesending.

So, Sneaker98, you'll reply with a civil tougn

SNEAKER98

Sunday, March 19, 2006 9:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
New post forthcoming

If it's just another pissing contest, we don't want it.

But, since he did it anyways, there's a simple thing to respond to.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
So, Sneaker98, you'll reply with a civil tougne, or you won't get a reponse. That is from me. I won't speak for anyone else, but I certainly will not continue on this childish endevour that you've lead us down and continue to escalate.

It's far, far too late for you to take the high road, kiddo.

I'm man enough to admit when I've gone too far. I apologized to Retrovertigo flat out because it was the right thing to do.

You, however, are a jackass, which I stated after you had turned this into one big pissing contest. You went above and beyond "I'm a programmer, so I do know a bit of this and that" to "I'm a better programmer than you. You don't know what you're talking about. Blah, blah, blah."

Begone from this thread.

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

RETROVERTIGO

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 7:03 PM

In other news, I got my MacBook Pro today.

It's amazing.

HAZE

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 8:48 PM

Congratulations!I hope you enjoy it.

--------------------------------------------------
Who do you suppose is in there?

SNEAKER98

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by retrovertigo:
In other news, I got my MacBook Pro today.

It's amazing.

My brother has the big 20 inch screen iMac's. Tis a great view, but too expensive for my tastes!

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

SIGMANUNKI

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sneaker98:

It's far, far too late for you to take the high road, kiddo.

Kiddo, that's amusing.

So then, it's ok for you to take this "highroad," but not ok for me to step back, take account of things, and restart? Even after you are the one who started the whole name calling thing?

Hm.

Quote:
Originally posted by sneaker98:

I'm man enough to admit when I've gone too far. I apologized to Retrovertigo flat out because it was the right thing to do.

But not to me then? Even given what I've shown?

Quote:
Originally posted by sneaker98:

You, however, are a jackass, which I stated after you had turned this into one big pissing contest. You went above and beyond "I'm a programmer, so I do know a bit of this and that" to "I'm a better programmer than you. You don't know what you're talking about. Blah, blah, blah."

No actually that was you, as I showed above. You just can't state things. You have to link, quote etc for statements to hold any weight.

And when did I say I'm a better programmer than you? Perhaps you are reading into things more than what's actually there, because I said no such thing.

Quote:
Originally posted by sneaker98:

Begone from this thread.

You forget yourself.

Basically, I have shown that you are the one who instigated misbehaving in this thread. And you were doing it a good portion of time before I started posting in this thread. Please note that my first post in this thread (addressing you) is 3/4 down the list right now whereas yours is about a 1/3. And you became aggressive straight away.

I have also shown that you lack the expertise to condemn OSX and comment on the state of Linux in general. Namely by referencing your own posts.

You have also failed to substatiate any claims that you have made towards me, whereas my last post is riddled with links.

In fact, my last post takes a step back and only discusses the facts. I make conjectures and state opinions, and use references to back-up my claims. You have done no such thing in our conversation. You have only used half truths and exceptions to the case to "prove" your point, linking to nothing to support your claims. Then you resorted to petty name calling.

Basically, you think you have the ability to take the highroad, but you seem to not be aware that you are floating in mid air, not on some ivory tower. I'm just interested in seeing if you'll look down, realize it, and fall. Much like a cartoon character.

But, you seem to think that your position is solid and are not even willing to take any critisism what-so-ever. So, I have little hope that you'll see the light.

So, continue to use half truths and exceptions to the case to "prove" your points. Just don't expect many to buy what you're selling.

I'll also note that I gave you the opportunity to continue this discussion in an civil manner. To continue, using references, using facts not half truths, etc. And you choose to go in a childish direction ("You, however, are a jackass," and "Begone from this thread."). Not even accepting or addressing any critisism.

Your last post is quite grandose and immature.

Please don't respond to this post unless you are willing and able to continue in a manner becoming of someone who is an adult. Your profile states that you are a college student, so I assume that you should at least be capable of it.

I'll just have to wait and see. And if anyone thinks that this is an antagonistic post, just go back and read Sneaker98's posts in this thread to see what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about continuing with facts and references. Which I've done. Which Sneaker98 seems incapable of doing. I await to be proven wrong.

EDIT 1: How is a 20'' iMac expensive? It's a sweet machine the comes with a moniter, keyboard and mouse for $2000 (CAD)/$1700 (USD)! That's a good price!

EDIT 2: RetroVertigo: Sweet! It living

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