I don't Care What You Believe...Just Believe.

POSTED BY: RiveR6213
UPDATED: Monday, July 31, 2006 23:15
VIEWED: 23463
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RIVER6213

Saturday, March 18, 2006 6:29 AM

This is a thread dedicated to people trying to find their reason's for being. Their reason's for living. What makes one person get up everyday and fight for another day while another person caves in and gives up? You decide what that is for yourself.

The River that Fell

EVILDINOSAUR

Saturday, March 18, 2006 5:10 PM

Yea, that's an awesome quote, that and "If you can't do something smart, do something right" Both good lines to live by. I should start wearing a bracelet that says WWBD, What Would Book Do? hehe

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

CHINDI

Sunday, March 19, 2006 5:53 AM

yeah... or what would MAL do???

chindi pondering and pondering..

RAT

Sunday, March 19, 2006 7:19 AM

"I Don't Care What You believe..Just Believe It..."

A Christian would never say that...worst line in the movie, not that it had much competition!!

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

FOLLOWMAL

Sunday, March 19, 2006 7:41 AM

Yeah, I'm with Chindi, I want to know what Mal would do.

*waves at Chindi!*

" You hold. Hold til I get back." Mal

RIGHTEOUS9

Sunday, March 19, 2006 9:18 AM

No way. It's a great line, and totally within Book's character, in my opinion. It speaks from the soul of a man who believed strongly in whatever it was he once believed, and then suddenly was set adrift, lost and listless, until he found something new to believe in.

What he knows is that there is something desolate about having nothing to live for but survival itself. He knows the compulsion to live won't overcome the mounting sickness that is either apathy or despair.

Where one finds that meaning is not a matter for him to be judgemental about..."judge not lest ye be judged," after all, and Book is not a preaching Christian, but a practicing one, and therein lies the difference.

RIVER6213

Sunday, March 19, 2006 9:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
"I Don't Care What You believe..Just Believe It..."

A Christian would never say that...worst line in the movie, not that it had much competition!!

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

Don't get me started on what I think regarding Christians. If you were a true believer of Christ you wouldn’t have even said that. For some people a belief is a concept that is difficult to grasp. Sometimes life comes down to finding something to believe in; sometimes a belief in anything, a car, a boat, the stars, or the earth is a beginning, a start to a much bigger belief and faith of a power greater than ones self.

A lot of Christians I have encountered in this day and age are so self-righteous, and full of themselves in a way that makes God look bad, and chases away the people who were sincerely seeking God’s love, protection and help. Most Christians I’ve encountered are really doing the work of evil, yet they don’t see that….they think that they are bringing the light of God to someone. Self-righteous bastards! Put them up against the wall I say!

River

RAT

Sunday, March 19, 2006 9:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
...Book is not a preaching Christian, but a practicing one...

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Don't get me started on what I think regarding Christians.

Who asked?

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

RIVER6213

Sunday, March 19, 2006 10:01 AM

And your point is?
You self-righteous Christians make me want to vomit up blood.

FITZ

Sunday, March 19, 2006 4:41 PM

did u scan that pic of the comic in or is there a website? i already have the comic but would be nice to get it on computer as well...

Men of Honour - coming soon to a Blue Sun Room near you...

RIGHTEOUS9

Sunday, March 19, 2006 5:11 PM

Yeah, even as I posted I remembered that part of the comic. I don't think it invalidates what I'm saying though.

Book is the type of man who accepts a prostitute into his heart without feeling the need to convert her or cleanse her of sin. More than that, he confides in her his fears and doubts, and even looks to her for some guidance(1st episode).

I think, when he says that he brings "the message to those who need hearing it," that he really means to those who have nothing to hold onto, who have nothing to believe in. He's not overly concerned with people who have meaning already.

GRIZWALD

Sunday, March 19, 2006 6:09 PM

I don't think that quote stands all by itself in the BDM. I may be alone here. But I think it was all part of the same thought. Book had just said the name "River" -- and then he said that about believing.

I think he meant, "I don't care what else you believe, just so long as you believe what River tells you."

____________________________________________________
They could not take the sky from them -
Our Big Damn Heroes made a film!
I'm gonna see Serenity then
go back the next morning and see it again.
Cuz no one at Fox knew this show had no equal
C'mon Universal, and greenlight the sequel!

Click on my profile for my Annoyingly Long List of Firefly Links.

LADYKNIGHT

Sunday, March 19, 2006 8:08 PM

It's also possable that he said that spifically to Mal because, with Mal so unbeleaving, if he dosen't ever beleave in ANYTHING then nothing can return him to faith in God. He opens his heart to faith, then, strange as it sounds, God gets a foothold in his heart again. It may be small...but it's a start, and a wise preacher like Book would know that some plant the seeds, some tend the seeds, and often the origional planter dosen't live to see the harvest.

At least, that's how I've always justified that line.

RAT

Sunday, March 19, 2006 8:14 PM

http://www.darkhorse.com/profile/preview.php?theid=10-844

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

RAT

Sunday, March 19, 2006 8:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
I think, when he says that he brings "the message to those who need hearing it," that he really means to those who have nothing to hold onto, who have nothing to believe in. He's not overly concerned with people who have meaning already.

If you're right, then book is not a true Christian, which I won't argue, because it may very well be the case.

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

SERENITYSEEKER

Sunday, March 19, 2006 8:33 PM

Howdy fellow Browncoats, thought I'd jump in and add my two cents. I must say I admire Book for his representation as a Christian figure in the 'Verse. In modern society, it's easy to stereotype Christians as very self-righteous and pushy of their religious beliefs. As a Christian myself, I have encountered people with these tendencies and it's made me upset. My sister and I, for example, differ in our own religious expression. She's very gung-ho about getting the Gospel message out and being very upfront about her beliefs. Me, I'm one who reflects as much of what I gather Book's theology is. You can't MAKE someone come to God anymore than you can make a person become your friend. As Christians, I believe we are supposed to be nonjudgemental of others and loving towards all. Yes, I am not afraid to sit down and discuss my faith (note, not religious beliefs) with a person, but I am always willing to so in a tone of understanding. Book seemed to reflect this attitude that even though some of these individuals had no need for his faith, he still presented an attitude of compassion towards all of the crew. We, Christians, should live a life that is admirable and for those who may have struggles finding something to believe in, we should then present a shoulder to lean on and a word of advice. Anyways, that's just how I think. If anyone would care to discuss this further, I'd be more than happy to oblige.

Oh yeah, does anyone know where I might be able to find a copy of those Serenity/Firefly comics? It'd be pretty shiny to find a few.

Keep flyin'.

LAMPYRID

Sunday, March 19, 2006 8:40 PM

I agree with Grizwald that the quote is being taken out of context.

The full quote is:

"River..."
"I Don't Care What You believe..Just Believe It..."
"Whatever She...".

In the Visual Companion the full quote is:

"You... it's on you now.. all this death, this shit... you have to find a course. This can't mean nothing."
"River... you have to..."
"I Don't Care What You believe..Just Believe It..."
"Whatever you have to..."

I see Book as saying:

"I don't care what you think of God, you better have faith in your beliefs because they are the only thing that will walk you through this."

Once River shows them Miranda, there's no going back; they know the secret. The Alliance must now hunt down and kill them all.

To paraphrase Jayne:

There is no "smart" way out of this. (They no longer can turn River in, hide or flee.) They can only stand by their beliefs and "do something right".

AX

Sunday, March 19, 2006 9:32 PM

What is a 'true Christian', out of curiousity? Did you find the definition in a dictionary or something?

I ask only because last I checked there are about a billion different sects all of which claim to be 'true Christians', and I was unaware that the debate had been finally put to rest. But since it has, I'd be happy to hear exactly where you found it, and how it happened.

RIGHTEOUS9

Sunday, March 19, 2006 9:46 PM

I don't think that that context colors it much differently...

and I don't think the important part is that he's saying "I don't care what you believe, just believe what river tells you."

Think about Mal here. How much coaxing would it take for him to believe that the alliance was screwing with people's heads, or even gasing people. I don't think much...he hates them already and I'm sure he saw all kinds of attrocities perpetrated by them during the war, in the name of something better.

It's not for the trip to Miranda that Mal needs to here these words, its for doing something meaningful once he finds the evidence of the deeds...that's where belief, or purpose I guess, becomes a factor...that's when things stop being about just getting by day to day.

CHRISISALL

Sunday, March 19, 2006 10:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
"I Don't Care What You believe..Just Believe It..."

A Christian would never say that...worst line in the movie, not that it had much competition!!

Damn the Christians! I believe in the Lords Of Kobol!!!!!!!!!!!!

ChrisisallYAHOOOOOOOOOOOOO

THEPISTONENGINE

Sunday, March 19, 2006 10:20 PM

There are no true Christians, only true heathens.

_____________
Carry the Nuttin'

JAYTEE

Sunday, March 19, 2006 10:43 PM

Every time I meet someone who claims to be a "true christian" I want to turn around and leave as quick as I can. The only people I find more repugnant are the muslim jihadists. A "true christian" will just shun you if they can't convert you. A muslim jihadist will want to kill you if they can't convert you. Either way, they both suck, just to different extremes. Whenever God gets into the mix things get all messed up. If HE truly exists and wants us to worship him in a particular manner wouldn't it make sense that He'd be better at communicating that than what we now have which is just a collection of conflicting religions all claiming title as the "one true faith"? All in all I think that over the centuries religions have done more harm than good in the name of God. Personal faith is great but religion is for sheep, self-righteous assholes and lazy manipulators who won't seek an honest job.

Jaytee

DONCOAT

Monday, March 20, 2006 12:34 AM

This preacher's kid is going to use a ten foot pole on the "true Christian" issue. Let's just say I've known some very fine and wonderful Christians, and some... not so much.

However, I think it's important to keep in mind that Book is talking to Mal in this scene, not some random stranger or possible convert. Book knows Mal well, well enough to have formed a good idea of Mal's instincts and tendencies. I think Book trusts Mal, and knows that when Mal finds something to believe in it will be "something right".

Taken out of that context, I'd agree that the statement is nonsense. After all, some terrible things have been done by people who wholeheartedly believed in things -- like slavery, the extermination of some religious or ethnic group, or that (say) babies are best served medium rare on a bed of rice pilaf with a nice brown gravy. I don't think Book's words should be taken as validating those sorts of belief.

Incidentally, my father once said something similar to me: that faith is in and of itself a Good Thing. I didn't, and still don't, fully agree with that, but I can certainly understand that point of view.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't disagree on any particular point.

TAMNUMBER1

Monday, March 20, 2006 6:21 AM

I have to admit, Shepherd Book's last words have been troubling to me.

Oh, but first, I suppose I should give a short intro (seems like the thing to do): new Browncoat, saw movie first, then watched show in three days, all commentaries, seen movie 7 times, all episodes at least three times, etc, etc. Also love Star Wars, Jane Austen, Sherlock Holmes, and Lord Peter Wimsey.

Kay, with that out of the way, the reason this quote troubles me is as follows. When coupled with Book's earlier line "When I talk about belief, why do you always assume I'm referring to God?" The implications seems to be that Book is advocating faith, regardless of content. As a (small voice) conservative, evangelical Christian (oh, and Reformed to boot) , I think the content of one's faith is quite important, so the implication of Book's dismissing content as irrelevant is a bit problematic (like ice planets, only different, see?) :-)

As for finding meaning, Christianity is about much more than just finding meaning - though Firefly doesn't get too deeply into what Book's faith is, it does hint that it is something that changes people into something better (see Bushwhacked and Jaynestown). In theological terms, that would be sanctification.

Also, I find the issue of Book's judging the crew quite interesting. He isn't usually confrontational, but I think little moments show he retains moral standards - the Special Hell moment in Our Mrs. Reynolds, his conversations with Jayne (showing that he can respect and care for a man and still retain strong disagreement and concern about his actions), and his introduction to Inara (showing his growth from mere judgment to actually relationship with someone who does what he considers sinful for a living).

I think that the fact that Book accepts wisdom from Inara and offers comfort to the whores in Heart of Gold does not mean he accepts their behavior. To me, it's a strong example of how Book is trying to be a good witness for his faith by not being confrontational and loving others as equal beings, but not participating in or condoning the actions or beliefs of those around him.

To those who see Book's quote to Mal as he dies as needing context - I'm with you all the way. Though I think the earlier conversation with Mal indicates that a broader idea of belief is necessary, I think Book is specifically talking about believing in River and what she shows him to do what it takes to let the 'verse know that man can't make man better.
I also like LadyKnight's very good analysis of Book's relationship with Mal - that poor fuzzy-wuzzy heathen.

Very much agreeing that people can make other people believe in God (or make them better - those two things are impossible, which is by only God can do them - the impossible is His specialty). Not sure if we are supposed to not judge, but the purpose of our judging is not to condemn, but out of compassion and fear for other's souls - not to be more righteous than others (worms don't have anything to brag about). :-)

Finally, I think a note on belief in the film is in order - Joss is most definitely not advocating faith in anything. In the first place, he explicitly says that the Operative is a believer, and we see he is definitely evil (for that matter, the Operative sees that he is definitely evil :-) ). Thus, the content of faith does matter, since true believers can be monsters. Second, in the commentary, Joss says that belief is something Mal's avoided because of the potential it has to make him like the Operative (which is kinda like point one only different). While leaders need belief, they also can be corrupted by what they believe in if they have faith in the wrong object. Third, Joss has made clear that he is telling a perspectival drama, which means that he doesn't necessarily advocate what a character says. So, if Book is saying "Believe whatever the heck you want" Joss and the film don't necessarily back it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Light it." - Simon, "Safe"

WOEBRINGER

Monday, March 20, 2006 3:20 PM

As to the line in the movie, it applies to Mal, that is, to get the job done, that's what Book needed Mal to hear, nothing more....My opinion.

/rant on

As far as the "true" christian discussion.... In my experience, both in my personal, and work life, I'm surrounded by these "true" christians. The similarities between these folk?... Lack of tolerance, and the notion that they know what's best for all. They spew their ignorance.

I'm sick of it...If you don't support the current administration in the U.S., you aren't an American. The fact that I don't agree with the administration's direction DOES NOT equate to the idea that I don't support our troops. If you tolerate homosexuals or are pro-choice, you aren't a christian. If this is so, then I suppose I'm not a "true" christian. Thank God for that. My heathen God. So the "christians" can feel better.

/rant off

HARDCORE

Monday, March 20, 2006 4:56 PM

Christians are not to tolerate those things that rebel against God. Homosexuality does that.

Does that mean that I should debase and hate a homosexual? God forbid! You LOVE that person, even more than a potential partner would! The SIN is detestable, but God is LOVE, and we are to REFLECT that love in EVERY SINGLE PERSON WE MEET, regardless of who they are.

Does it mean I should go on a religious tirade against a group of Muslims? GOD FORBID! You get the word to them, you talk to them, you love them, no matter how they feel about you. PLANT THE SEED, AND GOD WILL GROW IT.

The Internet's thought on Christianity is that the trend is to hate us. To mock us. You're not mocking me, brothers and sisters, you're mocking Christ in me. My feelings aren't hurt. I'm not outraged. I will still love you and pray that you all come to Christ before it's too late.

To the Atheists - prove to me there's no God. :)

Book held onto his ideals, onto the righteousness that God gave to him through his boundless grace. Book will ALWAYS be my favorite character, and, I can only pray that the actor that played Book is a Christian.

Being a Christian is not to judge others. We are to judge one another as Christians. We have to. Everything we do becomes so corrupt due to our sinful natures(if a Christian ever tells you they are better than you, you give them my email address - I'll be sure to put them back on the right path). Everything. Our religion, our denominations, it's all corrupt at one time or another.

Take, for example, the Pentecostal faith. Someone could stand, at any time, yell out something, even gibberish, and another person will stand and claim it to be "angelic" language and translate it. During the early age of the church, as Acts records it, the languages spoken by the apostles were EARTHLY languages, spreading the Gospel so that ALL could understand it, regardless of racial or land boundaries. We've corrupted that teaching and claim that a bunch of nonsense is God's language. IT'S NOT. However, these same people LOVE JESUS, and for that, I can overlook my personal thoughts concerning their religion and worship with them fine. I have.

The point of the matter is that Jesus is alive and well, and if ANYONE would want to know more, please, email me. I love to talk shop(I'm training to become a Shepard ), and more importantly, I want to show you all that the "self-righteous" aren't the only ones around, and help you in any way I can. Just don't ask me to drive a ship.

WHOME

Monday, March 20, 2006 6:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woebringer:
As to the line in the movie, it applies to Mal, that is, to get the job done, that's what Book needed Mal to hear, nothing more....My opinion.

I agree. Book knew Mal's past, and knew why Mal was so troubled. He wanted to give Mal something to carry him through.

As someone who has "lost faith" myself, I really connected with that line. I don't miss religion, but I do miss faith. I miss believing in something- anything- so much bigger than myself. No preacher of any religion or denomination will ever have the ability to bring me back to religion unless I decide I'm ready to come back. But I am finding other things to believe in.

To those how said Book isn't a "real" Christian: First, the nature of Christianity has changed dramatically over the past couple of thousand years. Second, who's a better Christian: the person who prays with a starving man, or the person who gets him some food? Preaching is all well and good, but there's no point in preaching to someone who's choosing not to hear it. Sometimes practical concerns are more important than spiritual concerns.

WHOME

Monday, March 20, 2006 6:20 PM

Quote:
To the Atheists - prove to me there's no God. :)

Prove to me there is one.

I can't make you believe there isn't, any more than you can make me believe there is. We believe what we're ready to believe, when we're ready to believe tit.

RIVER6213

Monday, March 20, 2006 6:40 PM

I have never met a Christian who reflected God's love...not ever. I have never met a Christian who was selfless, or loving, but I’ve met plenty of mean, selfish, control freaks who claim that they are Christians while at the same time laughing at the poor, and being racists towards blacks and other people.

This reminds me of a time a few years ago when I was feeling kind of low, so I decided one Sunday to go into a church and just listen and watch people. There were all of these expensivly dressed people about, and there was enough glitter in that church to feed at least half of the 3rd world. Everyone sat down and the church service started. In the middle of the sermon that was being given by a pompus, church leader, some old guy walked into the church and sat in the back. He was obviously poor based on his clothing, and he look sad, but he was quiet, but unfortunately for him, he was black which didn’t go over to well with the good, respectable Christians at that church. The sermon continued for a while and during the break, the black man was quietly asked to leave! When he left I left with him and we went and had coffee somewhere and talked.

So, I guess poor people aren’t invited to god’s house unless they have money, position and status. I guess this was another sick example of good Christians at work. I say put ‘em up against the wall.

River

UNREGISTEREDCOMPANION

Monday, March 20, 2006 6:46 PM

...tap tap tap....

Still waiting for Ax's question to get answered...

...tap tap tap....

While I am waiting on that, I can't help but ponder how some Christians seem to be a might....meddlesome. Much like the alliance. Hummmmmmmmm

~~~~~
"Funny and sexy. You have no idea. And you never will."

RIGHTEOUS9

Monday, March 20, 2006 7:22 PM

Okay...If God is love, then why is there a "too late?" That would be his own creation wouldn't it, and not a very compassionate one.

If God is love, then wouldn't two people of the same sex actually be experiencing God when they embraced their love for each other? Or are you going to sit in judgement over what love is as well? I.E. love is intolerance("not to tolerate," as you put it) in the name of the lord?

AMYLISAI

Monday, March 20, 2006 7:38 PM

Thanks RIVER6213 and Righteous9 and others for "fighting the good fight" for tolerance.

I've read this thread with much interest and thought for the last few hours of different things I'd like to say in response. But I'll just boil it down to this:

People are people. I will never be able to understand the "differences" such as "race". We all have legs and eyes and brains and hearts.

Why do some ppl look at Mormons and say "they're not Christian" and Mormons look at other Christians and say "they're not Christian" (etc etc, there are over 700 types of Christianity!) Why is it so hard to just relax and be tolerant? Why do people have such a hard time with that? Especially from religions that say "G-d loves all his children"...

It makes me sad. As a Jew, I have several times been the target of "Christians" who wanted to convert me "before it was too late" or simply bigots who hated me for no purpose but to humiliate me.

The world is such a beautiful place, full of so much variety and exciting variation. Would it really be more interesting if everyone was of the same faith and believed the same thing? (for one thing, we wouldn't have this thread! bye bye intellectual discussion?) If that was what G-d had intended, wouldn't G-d have just done so?

We are humans. By definition we are imperfect beings and do not understand the universe.

Therefore, relax. Let's think about tolerance.

[Except for tolerance of Fox cutting Firefly. Obviously that's gotta go. We should convert everyone to Firefly :) Just thinking of the funny parallels....]

here's to repairing the world,
Amy

(yeah, bracing myself for more hate. shruggin shoulders)

AURAPTOR

Monday, March 20, 2006 7:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
"I Don't Care What You believe..Just Believe It..."

A Christian would never say that...worst line in the movie, not that it had much competition!!

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

Won't say much about it being the worst line in the movie, but I think it's right in line w/ Book's character. Book knows Mal, and knows of Mal's view on God. It's likely that Book also suspects, if he doesn't flat out know, that Mal USE to believe in God. Book is a preacher, whether newly ordained or not, I'm guessing he's seen what the power of belief can do for a man. Book also knows what the lack of belief can do to a man.

Select to view spoiler:

Book is giving Mal a important piece of advice on how to live life, before he loses his own. It makes perfect sense that Book would try to save one more soul as his last act in the 'verse.

Book speaks to Mal in a way which he can understand, and I think we see the fruits of that exchange later on.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RIVER6213

Monday, March 20, 2006 8:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by amylisai:
Thanks RIVER6213 and Righteous9 and others for "fighting the good fight" for tolerance.

I've read this thread with much interest and thought for the last few hours of different things I'd like to say in response. But I'll just boil it down to this:

People are people. I will never be able to understand the "differences" such as "race". We all have legs and eyes and brains and hearts.

Why do some ppl look at Mormons and say "they're not Christian" and Mormons look at other Christians and say "they're not Christian" (etc etc, there are over 700 types of Christianity!) Why is it so hard to just relax and be tolerant? Why do people have such a hard time with that? Especially from religions that say "G-d loves all his children"...

It makes me sad. As a Jew, I have several times been the target of "Christians" who wanted to convert me "before it was too late" or simply bigots who hated me for no purpose but to humiliate me.

The world is such a beautiful place, full of so much variety and exciting variation. Would it really be more interesting if everyone was of the same faith and believed the same thing? (for one thing, we wouldn't have this thread! bye bye intellectual discussion?) If that was what G-d had intended, wouldn't G-d have just done so?

We are humans. By definition we are imperfect beings and do not understand the universe.

Therefore, relax. Let's think about tolerance.

[Except for tolerance of Fox cutting Firefly. Obviously that's gotta go. We should convert everyone to Firefly :) Just thinking of the funny parallels....]

here's to repairing the world,
Amy

(yeah, bracing myself for more hate. shruggin shoulders)

I never said I "hated" Christians, you put that there. I just never had a good experience with dealing with them. That was the whole point of my rant. If I could pull just one positive experience out of my mind that I have had with a Christian, then I wouldn’t rant so much, but I haven’t, so rant I shall.

We are all humans and humans make mistakes, so no one is asking for perfection out of anyone, but the Christians, at least the one's who claim that they are following Christ are on the whole, are up to no good. I have never experienced as much pettiness, bigotry, and power-tripping than I have with Christian groups. This has been my experience, therefore it counts for something.

The idea I had when I started this thread was about finding something to believe in...That something wasn’t about finding god, or it could be if viewed from another way. I meant trying to find something to hold on too to keep oneself sane. A job, a car, a hobby, friends, food, drugs, money, sex, anything that would make a person have something to look forward to. Anything that would make a person wants to get up out of bed in the morning and face themselves, and the world. That was my whole point, but, as expected with topics such as this, here comes the Christians trying to muscle in on it and turn it into a submit-or-be-destroyed-scenario.

Times like this I really wish Christians were still being fed to the lions

River

RAT

Monday, March 20, 2006 8:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by UnregisteredCompanion:
Still waiting for Ax's question to get answered...

Okay.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ax:
What is a 'true Christian', out of curiousity? Did you find the definition in a dictionary or something?

Let's do that shall we?

Quote:
Originally posted by www.dictionary.com :

true
adj. tru·er, tru·est

1.
a. Consistent with fact or reality; not false or erroneous. See Synonyms at real1. See Usage Note at fact.
b. Truthful.
2. Real; genuine. See Synonyms at authentic.
3. Reliable; accurate: a true prophecy.
4. Faithful, as to a friend, vow, or cause; loyal. See Synonyms at faithful.
5. Sincerely felt or expressed; unfeigned: true grief.
6. Fundamental; essential: his true motive.
7. Rightful; legitimate: the true heir.
8. Exactly conforming to a rule, standard, or pattern: trying to sing true B.
9. Accurately shaped or fitted: a true wheel.
10. Accurately placed, delivered, or thrown.
11. Quick and exact in sensing and responding.
12. Determined with reference to the earth's axis, not the magnetic poles: true north.
13. Conforming to the definitive criteria of a natural group; typical: The horseshoe crab is not a true crab.
14. Narrowly particularized; highly specific: spoke of probity in the truest sense of the word.

You get the idea!

Quote:
Originally posted by www.dictionary.com :
Christian, Charlie. 1916-1942.

American jazz guitarist and blues singer. One of the first to amplify the guitar, he influenced its emergence as a solo instrument in jazz.

Well that didn't help.

Quote:
Originally posted by www.dictionary.com :
Chris·tian
adj.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.

n.
1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

I hope that clears things up for you!

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

RAT

Monday, March 20, 2006 8:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
The sermon continued for a while and during the break, the black man was quietly asked to leave!

What Church was this?
Name?
Address?
Email?

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

RAT

Monday, March 20, 2006 8:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by amylisai:
Thanks RIVER6213 and Righteous9 and others for "fighting the good fight" for tolerance.

How is "I say put ‘em up against the wall.", ""fighting the good fight" for tolerance"?

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

RAT

Monday, March 20, 2006 8:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I never said I "hated" Christians, you put that there...

...Times like this I really wish Christians were still being fed to the lions.

Will you make up your mind?

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

DONCOAT

Monday, March 20, 2006 8:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I have never met a Christian who reflected God's love...not ever. I have never met a Christian who was selfless, or loving...

Well, then, you've never met my father, or the many thousands of people like him. And that's a shame, because there are countless Christians who really do try to lead lives that are the very opposite of the picture you paint in the rest of your post.

I'm no longer a believer in a supernatural god. But neither do I have the same picture of Christians that you do, River. I have to say that your description strikes me as a very shallow caricature, not unlike the way the Jews have been portrayed by anti-Semites down the centuries.

I hope that sometime in your life you find out that there are a lot of good people out there and that they are present among the followers of many different faiths, or none. From your posts here and in other threads it seems to me you've missed that up till now. That makes me sad for you -- nobody should have to go through life with such a dark picture of her fellow man. Especially not a fellow Browncoat.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't disagree on any particular point.

RIVER6213

Monday, March 20, 2006 8:50 PM

I'm simply basing this on the Christians I've met. If there are any good ones out there, they are hidden very well

River

RIVER6213

Monday, March 20, 2006 8:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I never said I "hated" Christians, you put that there...

...Times like this I really wish Christians were still being fed to the lions.

Will you make up your mind?

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

Feeding Christians to the lions isnt hate, its a reality show. Deal with it holy-water boy.

HARDCORE

Monday, March 20, 2006 8:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I have never met a Christian who reflected God's love...not ever. I have never met a Christian who was selfless, or loving, but I’ve met plenty of mean, selfish, control freaks who claim that they are Christians while at the same time laughing at the poor, and being racists towards blacks and other people.

I can only tell you that I am different in that aspect, as is my entire home church - Cornerstone Baptist Church of Albany Georgia. Never once have we asked a person to leave. I don't really put up with a dress code for service anyway - T-shirts and jeans for Sundays and Wednesdays for me, unless I am preaching, then, out of respect, shirt and tie. Christ's first believers couldn't afford to wear the Jewish equivalent of suits and ties, and that's the belief I follow. Denominations were created by man, CHRIST was created by God Himself.

Quote:

This reminds me of a time a few years ago when I was feeling kind of low, so I decided one Sunday to go into a church and just listen and watch people. There were all of these expensivly dressed people about, and there was enough glitter in that church to feed at least half of the 3rd world. Everyone sat down and the church service started. In the middle of the sermon that was being given by a pompus, church leader, some old guy walked into the church and sat in the back. He was obviously poor based on his clothing, and he look sad, but he was quiet, but unfortunately for him, he was black which didn’t go over to well with the good, respectable Christians at that church. The sermon continued for a while and during the break, the black man was quietly asked to leave! When he left I left with him and we went and had coffee somewhere and talked.

So, I guess poor people aren’t invited to god’s house unless they have money, position and status. I guess this was another sick example of good Christians at work. I say put ‘em up against the wall.

I can easily condemn the actions of a church for doing such a thing, God's own WORD shows us that Christ had compassion for people, ALL people, no matter who they were in life. The Pharisees, in the Gospels, even questioned Christ on this, to which Christ replied, "But when Jesus heard [that], he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick."[Matthew 9:12]

And, to the atheist, look out your front door. We certainly didn't create the trees and plants, and obviously, my predecessors weren't apes. :)

RIVER6213

Monday, March 20, 2006 8:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
Quote:
Originally posted by amylisai:
Thanks RIVER6213 and Righteous9 and others for "fighting the good fight" for tolerance.

How is "I say put ‘em up against the wall.", ""fighting the good fight" for tolerance"?

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

*yawn*

RIVER6213

Monday, March 20, 2006 8:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardcore:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I have never met a Christian who reflected God's love...not ever. I have never met a Christian who was selfless, or loving, but I’ve met plenty of mean, selfish, control freaks who claim that they are Christians while at the same time laughing at the poor, and being racists towards blacks and other people.

I can only tell you that I am different in that aspect, as is my entire home church - Cornerstone Baptist Church of Albany Georgia. Never once have we asked a person to leave. I don't really put up with a dress code for service anyway - T-shirts and jeans for Sundays and Wednesdays for me, unless I am preaching, then, out of respect, shirt and tie. Christ's first believers couldn't afford to wear the Jewish equivalent of suits and ties, and that's the belief I follow. Denominations were created by man, CHRIST was created by God Himself.

Quote:

This reminds me of a time a few years ago when I was feeling kind of low, so I decided one Sunday to go into a church and just listen and watch people. There were all of these expensivly dressed people about, and there was enough glitter in that church to feed at least half of the 3rd world. Everyone sat down and the church service started. In the middle of the sermon that was being given by a pompus, church leader, some old guy walked into the church and sat in the back. He was obviously poor based on his clothing, and he look sad, but he was quiet, but unfortunately for him, he was black which didn’t go over to well with the good, respectable Christians at that church. The sermon continued for a while and during the break, the black man was quietly asked to leave! When he left I left with him and we went and had coffee somewhere and talked.

So, I guess poor people aren’t invited to god’s house unless they have money, position and status. I guess this was another sick example of good Christians at work. I say put ‘em up against the wall.

I can easily condemn the actions of a church for doing such a thing, God's own WORD shows us that Christ had compassion for people, ALL people, no matter who they were in life. The Pharisees, in the Gospels, even questioned Christ on this, to which Christ replied, "But when Jesus heard [that], he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick."[Matthew 9:12]

And, to the atheist, look out your front door. We certainly didn't create the trees and plants, and obviously, my predecessors weren't apes. :)

Well, then your church sounds like a good one. I do remember reading somewhere that Jesus Christ said something like "Come to god as you are" I guess that mean church I went to didnt get the memo.

River

RIVER6213

Monday, March 20, 2006 9:08 PM

Awwww...
My nice little thread has been transformed into Rat's Holy Roller, Speak-in-Tongues emporium. Good job on doing the lord's work there Ratboy. When you die your god is gonna kick your lame ass.

River

RAT

Monday, March 20, 2006 9:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
If there are any good ones out there, they are hidden very well.

That's what persecuted people do, hide.

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

RAT

Monday, March 20, 2006 9:19 PM

And one more thing, I don't think I've gone by "Ratboy" on here in over a year!

edit- Sorry, I just checked, it was some time in june last year.
____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

13

Monday, March 20, 2006 9:25 PM

Ummm, RIvernumbergirl, can I get your number? I like your style and forwardness...i mean..

mine is 579-2136

Everyone loves God-bashing, and remember:

The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, in fact, he doesn't work at all. Not existing tends to do that..

I think a little chaos is in order.

TAMNUMBER1

Monday, March 20, 2006 9:40 PM

Point of interest, I thought "hate" means "to wish harm on or for others."

Re: tolerance - can I be intolerant of those who don't tolerate intolerance? And for clarification's sake, love does not equal tolerance - it means to desire good for the object of love. For Christians, the good is God, and we desire that all (at least, those who read the Bible believe all) are invited to partake of that good.

Question: why is there so much anger at the Christian responders - on the whole, I don't see what they've done to deserve death wishes and name calling.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Light it." - Simon, "Safe"

HARDCORE

Monday, March 20, 2006 9:43 PM

Indeed. God will take you as you are and make you something better...but not something to lord over others with.

GRIZWALD

Monday, March 20, 2006 9:54 PM

River wrote:

Quote:
I'm simply basing this on the Christians I've met. If there are any good ones out there, they are hidden very well.

May I submit that you have most likely met some good ones right here at FireflyFans.net?

I hope someday you find out who they are and are pleasantly surprised.

____________________________________________________
They could not take the sky from them -
Our Big Damn Heroes made a film!
I'm gonna see Serenity then
go back the next morning and see it again.
Cuz no one at Fox knew this show had no equal
C'mon Universal, and greenlight the sequel!

Click on my profile for my Annoyingly Long List of Firefly Links.

AGIRLYMAN

Monday, March 20, 2006 9:56 PM

I believe i'm fat.

AM I NOT MERCIFUL?!?!?!?

Tee Hee

HARDCORE

Monday, March 20, 2006 10:31 PM

I'm sorry, that's lost on me.

RIVER6213

Monday, March 20, 2006 10:35 PM

*sigh*

Another thread shot to hell.

River

SUICIDALDUCKLING

Monday, March 20, 2006 11:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
*sigh*

Another thread shot to hell.

River

Wow, it sure was...on the plus side, at least there is no hell and i'm reminded why i don't like going to church. Nice image in your signature by the way, very hypnotic.

RIGHTEOUS9

Monday, March 20, 2006 11:47 PM

Okay dude,

do you really feel the neccessity to associate christians with the persecuted?

That was a long time ago. You can not be persecuted when you are in the majority, and also control all aspects of government.

The "War on Christmas" is a joke perpetrated by the "left wing" media to rally the conservative base. There is no war! If people are getting agitated at Christians in this country, it is because there are attempts all over the place to turn our Secularly born government into something tied to Christianity, and THAT, is the persecution of every other religion that many of our fellow Americans hold dear.

I have no problem with Christianity, and am luckier than River### in that I have known many truly good christians. I want the good of such an important religion to thrive,

But Please quit allowing yourself to be deluded into thinking that just by being a Christian you are somehow a martyr for the faith. It's embarassing.

RIVER6213

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 12:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:

Okay dude,

do you really feel the neccessity to associate christians with the persecuted?

That was a long time ago. You can not be persecuted when you are in the majority, and also control all aspects of government.

The "War on Christmas" is a joke perpetrated by the "left wing" media to rally the conservative base. There is no war! If people are getting agitated at Christians in this country, it is because there are attempts all over the place to turn our Secularly born government into something tied to Christianity, and THAT, is the persecution of every other religion that many of our fellow Americans hold dear.

I have no problem with Christianity, and am luckier than River### in that I have known many truly good christians. I want the good of such an important religion to thrive,

But Please quit allowing yourself to be deluded into thinking that just by being a Christian you are somehow a martyr for the faith. It's embarassing.

Yeah!!! You tell 'em Righteous!

River

RAT

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 12:28 AM

Forgive me, you misunderstood. I meant RiveR6213 persecutes the Christians around her! In real life, if a person told me they want to have me shot and fed to the lions, I would cross the street to avoid that person!

I would also cross the street to keep my Skechers free of all the blood I cause that person to vomit up.

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

RIGHTEOUS9

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 12:54 AM

Gottcha.

It's a touchy subject, and nobody should be advocating 'putting them up against the wall',

Maybe it's because I'm not Christian, but I didn't actually detect a malicious tone in that post...I thought it was intentionally over the top, intentionally demented...and not an actual call to arms...

But yeah River...for shame. you...must...sue...for...peace...!

Heh...and I would like to second somebody elses motion that here would be a good place for you to meet some good Christians.

RIVER6213

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 1:07 AM

Darn! I loved the feeding them to the lions thing!

I do as I choose. I think what I want, and there is no power in the 'verse that can stop me. With that said, I think that my original purpose for this thread is what it is...Finding something to believe in, something to keep me going (no not Christianity so sit down and shut the frak up!) and follow it to see where the road leads.

Being a terrorist would give me a goal and a purpose. I would make a splendid suicide bomber, or going to volunteer as a person who helps terminally ill people might work for me...who the frak knows? but the Christianity journey, with all of its weirdness is not for me. So if you are a mouthy Christian wanting to give "advice" in this thread...take a hike bozo.

River

HARDCORE

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:12 AM

River, I understand your hostility. I felt the same way as you do before I accepted Christ into my heart.

I'm not going to convince you myself. All I can do is plant a seed and let God work with you. There will come a time in your life when you will call out, and God will be waiting with open arms.

This goes to anyone else who feels as River does. I'm not condemning you. You don't need condemnation, you need the liberating love of Christ in your lives.

Again, I offer my ear(or eyes, dependant upon how you wish to contact me) to help you in any way I can.

BELLOBARD

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:51 AM

I am a Christian, but what is sad to me is that it sounds like you have only experienced the evangelists.

There are many like I am who don't think you have to convert people. But it is through controversy that one's opinions come to light. So unless you ask the next nice person you meet if they are a Christian, you may never meet a 'tolerant' Christian.

As for me, I believe what I believe. But I accept all faiths. I accept that love is the ultimate. And if that means homosexual love, so be it.

I may not agree with everything that happens in the world. And I may quietly judge some things that piss me off too, but I will never try to "convert" you. It's your choice and your old enough to think for yourself. And Christ said the same.

As for Shepherd, I believe he was the same. Just as falliable as the fundamentalists and atheiests. He is afterall human. No one, no matter what your faith, is perfect.

Shepherd understands that belief in something is the most important thing. And it doesn't have to be religious. Just believe and Accept that others will differ in their beliefs... and that includes in how they share their beliefs. Just accept it and the world will be a brighter place.

Unless you purposefully just want to piss people off which sounds more to the point. So have fun!

ZAKNRFAMA

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:54 AM

I don't believe in any religion, but this quote really explains half of my personal moral code. I was actually shocked to see somebody else say it, but it's really true. You could believe the world was created by sausages, I don't care, just don't let anybody tell you otherwise. It's not ignorance, it's sticking to your guns.

RIVER6213

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 4:21 AM

You all sound like nice people, but is the room titled "Christians Chat line?" What the frak are you all doing here? What is this? You are raping my thread. Its been highjacked!!!! Is this a joke? Where are all the rational, reasonable people who have, and live their lives by way of common sense? Where are their ideas? Why must the Ben Hur, I Dream of Genie crowd have to take point in all of this?

You Christian people, listen up!!!! I would follow Satan himself at this point if I could get what I wanted okay? You guys can leave now. The door is over there, and don't let it hit you on the way out.

jeezzzuss!!!

River

HARDCORE

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:01 AM

We have the right to speak, just as you do.

I'm sorry we don't agree on this.

RIVER6213

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardcore:
We have the right to speak, just as you do.

I'm sorry we don't agree on this.

Yes, I suppose you do have the right to speak your garbage you bible-thumping creepoid. Well, go ahead and hijack away this thread Christian boy. This is the last post I'll make in this thread so you and your fellow Christian friends can hold your self-righteous prayer meetings here.
I'll make a new thread elsewhere. You Christians always ruin everything thats good.

River

*The fleet sets course for new horizons*

ROCKETJOCK

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I have never met a Christian who reflected God's love...not ever.

Whew. I feel sorry for you. I'll admit, the number of good, loving, wise Christians is small compared to the number of fools, bigots, and self-serving egoists who call themselves "Christian" without the slightest understanding of what the Nazarine taught, but to have gone through an entire lifetime without once encountering one is a serious statistical anomaly.

For the record, I'm a Pagan, and I've run across my share of professed "Christians" who stand for everything the Son of Man preached against.

But I've also met people who've "gotten it"; who judge themselves before they judge others, who are more concerned with living in a state of grace than in forcing others to follow a set path.

They're exactly the kind of people a virtuous Pagan can call friend. And there are more of them out there than you might realize.

"All through history the great religious philosophers and prophets have pointed towards a dream, and said "This is the way we should travel." "This is the direction we should face."; and immediately very great fools have looked at where they have pointed and said "Look--It's a finger! A glorious, wonderful, sacred finger! Let us worship this finger!" -- Attributed to Jean-Luc Picard

RAT

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 7:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
Book is the type of man who accepts a prostitute into his heart without feeling the need to convert her or cleanse her of sin. More than that, he confides in her his fears and doubts, and even looks to her for some guidance(1st episode).

I think, when he says that he brings "the message to those who need hearing it," that he really means to those who have nothing to hold onto, who have nothing to believe in. He's not overly concerned with people who have meaning already.

Many a time when people find out I'm a Christian they'll apologize for using profanity or doing something else they think I'll find offensive, I just tell them that as a none Christian, the fact that they cuss is truly the least of their problems.

I suspect Book thinks the same way!

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

RAT

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 9:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
This is a thread dedicated to people like Rat who is totally in love with Satan and want to be one of his minions.

*Gasp* You edited without an edit tag! That's a big faux pas!

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

MOSS

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I have never met a Christian who reflected God's love...not ever.

Quote:
But I've also met people who've "gotten it"; who judge themselves before they judge others, who are more concerned with living in a state of grace than in forcing others to follow a set path.

They're exactly the kind of people a virtuous Pagan can call friend. And there are more of them out there than you might realize.

You have put into words my thoughts exactly.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME

DEEPGIRL187

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 2:07 PM

To RiveR6213 and Rat,

If anyone here hijacked this thread, it's you two. Between your constant bickering, it's amazing that anyone could remember the original purose for this thread (or indeed, the reason we're on this site) at all. Extremeism doesn't really solve anything, whether you're a hardcore atheist or a hardcore Christian. We are all here as fans of a great show displaying our appreaciation. You two did a wonderful job of losing that idea.

To get to the original point, I believe that what Book was really referring to was that Mal believe in himself. Only through his own personal conviction could he summon the will to get through their current troubles. The quote can stand on its own, depending on your personal perspective.

This website is for fans of the 'verse, not people spewing their own negative biases. Try to remember that in the future!

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 2:21 PM

Rat, please! Reject Satan!
Reject him so we can have the original thread title back!!!

Holier than thou Chrisisall

GELASSENHEIT

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:12 PM

Time for the good old dictionary.

belief-(b&-'lEf) a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing.

So it could be belief in a greater good, or belief in what Shepherd or River stood for. These alone could have propelled Mal to go and seek the truth about Miranda and then later get the story out to the public. AND risk everything and everyone to do it. That's belief.

Gelassenheit means Serenity

ROCKETJOCK

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:33 PM

Heard about the dyslexic devil worshiper?

He sold his soul to Santa.

*Ba-doom-poom!*

"Your application's been rejected, but here's what we can do... If you convince ten of your friends to sell their souls I think we can work something out." -- Satan, Sinfest

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:

He sold his soul to Santa.

*Lucifer eyes his next easy mark*

But I'll be with ya, 'cause I laughed Chrisisall

RIVER6213

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 4:14 PM

*Soundtrack to Damien, Omen II is in the background*

*River stands in the center of a pentagram, dressed in all black*

*The Choir of the damned begins to chant*

MALACHITE

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:53 PM

So, I guess I've understood Shepherd's statement a bit differently. First, Shepherd tells Mal that the only thing that will get him through (his current predicament) is belief, and that belief is evidently not God. He goes on to say that it is having belief in something, in and of itself, that is important, not the particular content (though, as mentioned in other posts, it likely has something to do with River, and what she knows). Mal eventually finds his belief that the world needs to know the secret of Miranda. I think that the strength of Mal's belief, and his willingness to die for it (as demonstrated by his response to the Operative) are what give him the internal resolve to keep fighting and eventually triumph over the Operative. Had he not had that strength of belief to match the Operative's own belief that killing River leads to a better world, he would have given up and been killed.
So, for the movie, Shepherd wanted Mal to survive. Shepherd knew that Mal had to develop a strong internal resolve to do what was right (based on a belief) in order to survive against the Operative. For that instance, Mal needed a strong, but not specifically Christian, belief. But overall, given Shepherd's character, I still see that Shepherd wants Mal to reconnect with God some time in the future. Does that make sense?

"Of course, that ain't exactly Plan A" -- Mal to the Operative

STORYMARK

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 6:07 PM

Just to throw my bucket of fuel on the fire...

Now, in relation to the thread title, I would not say that Satan is my god, as I don't believe in Satan, but I do believe in the Church of Satan - in it's original incarnation at least.

Now, I don't really know what form the Church of Satan is in these days, if it even exists anymore. But I did do a lot of research back in college into Anton LeVey, the founder, and the way the organization worked back when he started it.

I may have the wording a bit off, but the basic tennant was: "Do as you like, but bring no harm to others."

That's something I can get behind. Follow your bliss, do whatever you need to to be happy, just as long as you don't hurt others in the process. I think the world would be a lot better off if people were to live this way.

People could worship and believeas they chose, without forcing it on others, or judging them for not believing the same as they did. What a pleasant thought.

Of course, since that's not the way it is, if I were to go around saying this too much, I have no doubt that eventually some "good Christian" would brain me for it.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

RAT

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 6:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
To RiveR6213 and Rat,

If anyone here hijacked this thread, it's you two.

If you look at the first few posts, you'll see where it got threadjacked and that it wasn't me! (Unless you count my using the "C" word.)

Quote:
Originally posted by Malachite:
Does that make sense?

Sort of, but I still don't see how Book could know all that!

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

THEREALME

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 6:15 PM

The original title had something to do with "belief", not Satan. The author did not care for the sort of posts that came, and so changed it.

As far as Mal and Book's "Believe in something," idea, I think it has nothing to do with believing River. I'm not sure Book had an understanding that she was remotely sane.

But Book was trying to help fix Mal's biggest problem. Mal was directionless. "Wind blows north, I go north," he himself says. He had no goal, no purpose, aside from survival. And we can see that living like that has had its toll on Mal.

TheRealMe, First Officer of the Sereni-Tree

STORYMARK

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 6:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheRealMe:
The original title had something to do with "belief", not Satan. The author did not care for the sort of posts that came, and so changed it.

TheRealMe, First Officer of the Sereni-Tree

Ah, I didn't realize that. I saw someone mention an un-cited edit, but I thought it was in the body text, not the title.

So, I guess my post just addressed the "revised" thread title.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

RIGHTEOUS9

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 6:29 PM

I agree with therealme and Malachite. Agrees with my own reasoning, must be right...

SASSALICIOUS

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 7:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
The sermon continued for a while and during the break, the black man was quietly asked to leave!

What Church was this?
Name?
Address?
Email?

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

My grandfather stopped going to church (still believes in God, just doesn't do the Church thing) after the minister made a comment about this family's church attire. The family was obviously poor and couldn't afford incredibly nice clothes, but they were still there and going to church every Sunday. Anyway, their clothes were a bit worn and whatever and the minister said something to the effect of "i can see that some people don't understand the concept of 'Sunday Best'" blah blah blah. I can't give you all the details on the Church, but it was sometime in the 70s in Montana or Wyoming because that's where my stepdad grew up. Probably Bozeman or Sundance.

So yes, a number of churches do actively discriminate and belittle their own patrons.

RIVER6213

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 8:05 PM

LOL!!
This thread ended up in Troll Country! A perfect ending to a dreadful thread! I feel SO proud of myself.

That should teach those mean christians from messing with the Hero of Lamurra, The woman they call River6213.

THEREALME

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 8:23 PM

Sorry, River, YOU put the thread here when you changed the title to something provocative. Presumably, you were trying to insult people.

TheRealMe, First Officer of the Sereni-Tree

SOULOFSERENITY

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 8:55 PM

Okay, here's my $.02.

I've been around this site for quite a while now, and I've seen the extremes that some people can go to with their own beliefs. It’s one thing to defend what you believe, but it’s another thing to condemn someone else for what they believe. There is a rather stupid saying that I use, but it fits: “Hey, whatever floats your boat. As long as you don’t try to float my boat down your stream, we’re cool.” Basically, whatever you chose to believe in is cool with me, as long as you respect what I believe. I try my hardest not to judge people, and I think I do a pretty good job of it. Race is not an issue, religion is not an issue, and financial status is not an issue. If you flaunt what you are, and try to make others either jealous of you or pity you because of your situation, that’s just wrong. You need to live with what you have, and embrace your uniqueness, not try to make everyone exactly like you. That would be a boring world.

As far as this whole tangent about Christianity, I’ve seen my fair share of the pompous types. Can’t stand people like that. Unfortunately, there are many people out there like that, who think that they are better than everyone because they’re Christian. Then there are those who do get it, who get what God was saying about equality and tolerance, about loving one’s brother unconditionally. Those are the true Christians.

I am a Browncoat. I am also a Christian. I will 100% respect you and what you believe. I’m not going to try to convert you. All I ask is that you respect me in return.

And if you don’t, I’ll smite your a$$!! Oh wait, I can only do that with my Dwarf Priest. Sorry, WoW on the brain!!

______________________

Soul, Security Chief of the Sereni-Tree, Captain of Destiny.

Mantichorus: "So is there a reason they call you 'Soul'?"
Soul (after a long pause): "Yeah. Because I have one."

http://havenofsouls.livejournal.com/

RIVER6213

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 9:05 PM

Well, they had it coming. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, and yes I was being pretty mean there towards the end. I just seen some of these pushy, Christian folks turn upside down other threads in their zeal to preach, and I didn't want the thread I started to go in that direction, so I, with equal zeal decided to jump on it. I guess I got carried away. You're a 100% Christian huh? Is this your website, because if it is, then those Christians I was arguing with brought in the big guns...YOU to exact holy justice and sent my thread into Troll Country. That's kinda cheating don't you think?

And it was shaping up to be such a good thread too. Oh well!

River

RIVER6213

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 9:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheRealMe:
Sorry, River, YOU put the thread here when you changed the title to something provocative. Presumably, you were trying to insult people.

TheRealMe, First Officer of the Sereni-Tree

Yes, I changed the title, but I was going to change it back once the John The Baptist group got bored and left. I thought I was being clever changing the title of the room, so I wouldnt have to war it out with them in the thread. And yes, I was doing my absolute best to insult those Christians creepoids, and yes, because I ended up changing the name of the room into Satan's home, this thread got moved to Troll Country!!! I thought I had won, but now I'm talking to you guys.

I'm not certain if this was worth all of that. I guess I no longer have the patience dealing with bible thumpers. In this i have failed to have tolerance, and for that I am guilty, but at least I'm proud to say that I stuck to my guns.

BTW Who's running this website?

River

THEREALME

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 9:32 PM

This is Haken's site.

On the whole, I tend to agree with you, River. And with Soul. I agree that some Christian folk got heavy handed here. But you asked about BELIEF, and so they were on topic.

I understand why you changed the thread title in frustration, but in my opinion, that was uncalled for.

I suggest that you just ignore such folk who annoy you so much.

TheRealMe, First Officer of the Sereni-Tree

RAT

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 9:46 PM

This is my last post on this thread, as a wise man once said "I don't chase 'em into Troll Country"!

Son, if you could stash me in cryo 'till such time as you need something SPAMed, that'd be great! Thanks!

Concludedly,

Rat

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

RIVER6213

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 9:49 PM

THEREALME

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 9:52 PM

You got it, Dad!

TheRealMe, First Officer of the Sereni-Tree

THEPISTONENGINE

Thursday, March 23, 2006 1:10 AM

Ok, I've decided to check out troll country and ran into this thread. Probably no one's going to read it, but what the hell.

I'm with several people here. I have problems with Christains. And Jews. And Muslims... um, who else? Atheists, agnostics, myself too.

Actually, I have problems with humanity.
Everyone thinks their particular faith is enlightened and closest to God. That's why its their faith. If someone else's faith is right, that makes theirs wrong. So its perfectly natural that people see their faith as above other peoples. That's my problem with religion. The trick is, they can fight the good fight, convert a few people along the way, without being arrogant and egotistical. I think, largely, the western world is moving towards a tolerant disagreement. I wouldn't advocate total tolerance, if something is wrong with someones faith, the practices, or their conduct, people don't have to accept it. They just need to stuff their ego away.

I think atheists and agnostics are worse. Several atheists I know think themselves incredibly clever because they don't "buy into the mindless following of religion." *yawn*. Agnostics think themselves clever by pulling the Socrates card. I think I'm clever because I realize the world is full of idiots, including myself, and I accept it. I say that, and I think that, but does my subconscious believe? I dunno.

The fact is we all think we're better than one another. We need to realize this fact, and can our egos as much as possible while still subjecting others ideas to reason, debate, and not simply accepting others positions.

It's a real balance. I guess that's why I like Aristotle.

_____________
Carry the Nuttin'

DEEPGIRL187

Thursday, March 23, 2006 11:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
To RiveR6213 and Rat,

If anyone here hijacked this thread, it's you two.

If you look at the first few posts, you'll see where it got threadjacked and that it wasn't me! (Unless you count my using the "C" word.)

Quote:
Originally posted by Malachite:
Does that make sense?

Sort of, but I still don't see how Book could know all that!

____________________________
Acquisitions Officer - SereniTREE

I don't mean hijacking in a literal sense. What I mean is that you and River6213's constant bickering ruined the original idea of this thread. Call me crazy, but some people actually wanted to discuss Book's message to Mal, not lash each other to death with philosopical biases.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

RIVER6213

Friday, March 24, 2006 6:44 AM

I started this thread. You have to read the thread from start to finish to know what happened that ended this thread into Troll Country!!!! I hate Troll Country by the way.

I had selfish reasons for starting this thread, but the Christians decided to move on in to spread god's message, and to turn upside down my thread. I guess I wasnt going to have that, so I attacked. I guess i should have just let them take over the thread and made another one. Shame on me. I'm such a bad person.

There are more faiths on ths planet other than Christianity you know. These christians are a pushy lot, and they make a lot of people hate them not because of god, but becasue of them.

I say kill 'em all

Dead River

BROWNCOAT1

Monday, March 27, 2006 4:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
There are more faiths on ths planet other than Christianity you know. These christians are a pushy lot, and they make a lot of people hate them not because of god, but becasue of them.

I say kill 'em all

So, because of the crimes of a few all should die? Just curious. Seems kind of heavy handed and pushy is all.

I don't generally discuss religion or politics for the very reasons that this thread you started went bad & into troll country. I do however hate to see an entire group stereotyped because of some bad experiences you have suffered.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

CHRISISALL

Monday, March 27, 2006 5:01 PM

BrownCoat1, if we are to take RiveR6213 at her word from the To Be or Not to Be thread, she's gone now.

BROWNCOAT1

Monday, March 27, 2006 5:10 PM

Wait a second. Do you mean "gone" gone?

I just read the "To be.." thread to her last post. Do you mean she may have taken her own life?

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

CHRISISALL

Monday, March 27, 2006 5:18 PM

Sorry if I was vague, I mean to say she ended her life.

BROWNCOAT1

Monday, March 27, 2006 5:19 PM

She what? You can't be serious!

Has anyone tried to contact her? Surely taking her own life was not the answer to her problems.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

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