It's time.

POSTED BY: Jonus
UPDATED: Monday, March 27, 2006 00:25
VIEWED: 15551
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JONUS

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 2:45 AM

I believe I know the purpose of my life. It is to overthrow the government. How did I figure this?

I saw V for Vendetta on Saturday and heard the story of Guy Fawkes and his plan to blow up parliament and in the process kill the king. It struck a chord and deeply inspired me and I have NEVER been so inspired by anything in my life. I've lived my whole life being a fucking couch potato, but I've always hated the government and any man who thinks he's better than another man. Complacent with the shit that goes on. Playing video games all day and watching movies to escape the shit of the world. Working jobs I hate and not being appreciated. Now I don’t want to kill the president. I just want to put the government “out of business”. I’ve been wracking my brain thinking of all that’s wrong with the country and thinking of what to do.

I thought of getting everyone to stop paying taxes. Without the people and their support the government can’t exist. They need us. This would take years to take effect. So we keep our fucking money and use violence if necessary. I've become so sick and fucking tired of accepting the world the way it is. It's time the people take back what's theirs. I'll follow God's laws but not some super conservative fuck who justifies his actions in the name of God.

I can't do it alone. I need everyone. We can take back everything and give it back to the people.

WE ARE NOT FREE. BUT WE CAN BE. It's time to stop being complacent. ACT NOW.

I'm a Jedi.
I'm a Ringer.
I'm a BROWNCOAT.

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonus:

use violence if necessary.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonus:

I'll follow God's laws

You are aware that these two statments contradict eachother, right?

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:11 AM

Jonus, dude, fellow browncoat.

YOU MUST CHILL!

If you don't like the govt., fine, vote for someone else. If you think that's not enough, organize other people to vote for someone else.

But what you are doing here is buying yourself a one way ticket to guantanamo.

It's not nearly as bad as you think. People like Bush, and Clinton, get into power because they have organizations, people who work for them, people who they pay, to work for them, who them go and vote for them, and take their friends to vote for them, in the primary.

Primary is where it happens, and the sheep are shepherded in to vote for the mainstream candidate. The Christian looney fringe was brought in, litterally bussed in, to vote for George W. Bush. Hillary Clinton will have eager neofeminist coeds do the same thing for her.

But the reason this works is that the people sit on their asses stoned and watching Tv, instead of organizing to support someone else.

But you gotta stop with the whole treason against the US of A thing.

GINOBIFFARONI

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonus:
I believe I know the purpose of my life. It is to overthrow the government. How did I figure this?

I saw V for Vendetta on Saturday and heard the story of Guy Fawkes and his plan to blow up parliament and in the process kill the king. It struck a chord and deeply inspired me and I have NEVER been so inspired by anything in my life. I've lived my whole life being a fucking couch potato, but I've always hated the government and any man who thinks he's better than another man. Complacent with the shit that goes on. Playing video games all day and watching movies to escape the shit of the world. Working jobs I hate and not being appreciated. Now I don’t want to kill the president. I just want to put the government “out of business”. I’ve been wracking my brain thinking of all that’s wrong with the country and thinking of what to do.

I thought of getting everyone to stop paying taxes. Without the people and their support the government can’t exist. They need us. This would take years to take effect. So we keep our fucking money and use violence if necessary. I've become so sick and fucking tired of accepting the world the way it is. It's time the people take back what's theirs. I'll follow God's laws but not some super conservative fuck who justifies his actions in the name of God.

I can't do it alone. I need everyone. We can take back everything and give it back to the people.

WE ARE NOT FREE. BUT WE CAN BE. It's time to stop being complacent. ACT NOW.

I'm a Jedi.
I'm a Ringer.
I'm a BROWNCOAT.

Rise up my friend, saving your country from itself isn't treason....

Whatever it takes is never too high a price

" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 4:22 AM

Quote:
saving your country from itself isn't treason

Actually technically it is.

Advocating the overthrow of your goverment through violence or knowingly aided and abetting her enemies in their attempt to do harm.

The last part is important, meaning if you sold catfood to Al Qaeda your not guilty of treason. If you taught them how to fly airplanes and not land, and you had some knowledge that they intended to do harm to the US, ie, you had an IQ point, then that's a different story.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 8:55 AM

yeah rise up, if nothing else it'll be a laugh.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 11:02 AM

stupid double post. Grrrrr!

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 11:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
yeah rise up, if nothing else it'll be a laugh.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

Nothing like pointless violence to lighten the mood, huh?

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CITIZEN

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 11:34 AM

Thinly vailed Red Dwarf quote...

Lister: Yeah that's the best plan yet! Let it get knackered eating me too death then you guys can just catch it unawares!
Kryten: Even if it doesn't work it'll be a laugh!

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

JONUS

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 1:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Quote:

Rise up my friend, saving your country from itself isn't treason....

Whatever it takes is never too high a price

Don't know if you're just being sarcastic or not. If you're being truthful then thanks. I need people with courage like yours.

Next phases: Stop voting for a leader. The USA is the "free world" and yet we have a RULER. Does that sound right to you?

Start boycotting. Oil and whatever else we buy that supports our government and other governments.

To the other posts:
I knew I would run into people like you. You're afraid of being persecuted. You're too complacent. You fear authority and change. WE DESERVE BETTER.

God never said not to act with violence. He said "Don't kill."

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 2:05 PM

"To fight for yourselves is right.
But to die in vain is the act of stupid men." - KCC

Violence is not the way. It replicates what it wishes to destroy.- Chrisisall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 2:59 PM

And a fruitcake is born.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

HERO

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonus:
Start boycotting. Oil and whatever else we buy that supports our government and other governments.

Go for it (more oil for me...)

I'd also suggest you boycott everthing else... like food, public utilities, the internet.

I wont throw around buzzwords like treason and sedition. I will note that you probably wont be tracked down and arrested for your treasonous and seditious opinions unless and until you take an unlawful violent action. This is the halmark of our free society. Talk all you want, but if you blow something up or drive while intoxicated guys like me will put you in jail.

And don't go yelling fire in a crowded theater or threatening the President...free speech has its limits too.

H

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I will note that you probably wont be tracked down and arrested for your treasonous and seditious opinions unless and until you take an unlawful violent action. This is the halmark of our free society.

I will note that just by being on this board, ALL of us will be virtually tagged and monitered. This is the halmark of our paranoid and Religious Extremist society.

But I agree with you Hero, that if we must act to change things, we must do so within the law.

Not as nutty as you thought, huh? Chrisisall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I will note that just by being on this board, ALL of us will be virtually tagged and monitered. This is the halmark of our paranoid and Religious Extremist society.

Not me. I’ll be doing the monitoring. I’ve been implanted to infiltrate and observe the highly dangerous Browncoat organization.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
And a fruitcake is born.

Finn, that is THE briefest assessment of a person, situation or opinion I've ever seen from you. Care to try and talk him down off that bridge rationally? If anyone can do it, you can.

Is 'fruitcake' an ad hominem?

Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’ll be doing the monitoring. I’ve been implanted to infiltrate and observe the highly dangerous Browncoat organization.

I knew it

Betrayedisall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Finn, that is THE briefest assessment of a person, situation or opinion I've ever seen from you. Care to try and talk him down off that bridge rationally? If anyone can do it, you can.

I’m just going to wait for him to jump.

The rest sounds like too much work.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

HARDWARE

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
saving your country from itself isn't treason

Actually technically it is.

Advocating the overthrow of your goverment through violence or knowingly aided and abetting her enemies in their attempt to do harm.

I believe the founding fathers disagree with you Dreamtrove.

Quote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Given the American history of violent revolution I don't think your statement holds water.

Quote:

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security

Hmm, "throw off" doesn't sound like voting somebody out of office to me. WWGWD? What Would George Washington Do?

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

FLETCH2

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 6:53 PM

Nuts.... now I'm craving fruitcake.

REAVERMAN

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 7:33 PM

I agree with Jonus that there are some serious problems with the way our government is run, but sometimes you are forced to choose between the lesser of two evils. If Jonus' proposed revolution came to fruition tomorrow, ya know what we would have? Utter chaos. Americans are far from a unified people. If the government collapsed, litterally all hell would break loose.
With 15,000+ nuclear weopons in storage or active readiness around the nation, how long do you think it will be before some band of extreme leftists grab a nuke or ten and decide to get rid of the bible belt? Or a group of extreme rightists gets one and decides to annihilate New York City because it's a "blue state"? Worst case scenario, total racial warfare erupts in urban areas across the country. Imagine the death and devastation if entire races started slaughtering each other in the streets. At the very least, the extremists from both ends of the political spectrum would start shooting each other with the moderate majority caught in the crossfire, unable to decide on what to do. Meanwhile, nations like China would quickly seize this as an opportunity to stage a "police action" which would leave us truly oppressed. You think we're oppressed now, but look at the Chinese. You(Jonus would be dragged from your home, interrogated, quite possibly tortured, then shot as a traitor. The simple fact that you are still breathing is proof enough that we are not an oppressed people. The only really valid course of action left to people like us who want to change things is to use the institutions already in place to do it legally. It is an extremely slow process because of how entrenched the system is, but it can be done if only people find the patience to go through with it.

FLETCH2

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 8:23 PM

I was thinking recently about the differences between the movie and the V for Vendetta comic book. In the comic neither the government or V were especially pure. V's motives where principly revenge and a craving for anarchy while the Fascist government saw itself as the saviors of the people. Each saw themselves as the good guys, each were polar opposites, tyrany vs anarcy and neither would be any sane person's choice as a form of political system.

RIVER6213

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 8:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonus:
I believe I know the purpose of my life. It is to overthrow the government. How did I figure this?

I saw V for Vendetta on Saturday and heard the story of Guy Fawkes and his plan to blow up parliament and in the process kill the king. It struck a chord and deeply inspired me and I have NEVER been so inspired by anything in my life. I've lived my whole life being a fucking couch potato, but I've always hated the government and any man who thinks he's better than another man. Complacent with the shit that goes on. Playing video games all day and watching movies to escape the shit of the world. Working jobs I hate and not being appreciated. Now I don’t want to kill the president. I just want to put the government “out of business”. I’ve been wracking my brain thinking of all that’s wrong with the country and thinking of what to do.

I thought of getting everyone to stop paying taxes. Without the people and their support the government can’t exist. They need us. This would take years to take effect. So we keep our fucking money and use violence if necessary. I've become so sick and fucking tired of accepting the world the way it is. It's time the people take back what's theirs. I'll follow God's laws but not some super conservative fuck who justifies his actions in the name of God.

I can't do it alone. I need everyone. We can take back everything and give it back to the people.

WE ARE NOT FREE. BUT WE CAN BE. It's time to stop being complacent. ACT NOW.

I'm a Jedi.
I'm a Ringer.
I'm a BROWNCOAT.

Now this is what I call a motivated man! You have courage, but don't be too surprised when the guys in black suits and cars stamped "Secret service" show up in front of your house.

River

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 2:39 AM

Jonus,

Quote:
Don't know if you're just being sarcastic or not. If you're being truthful then thanks. I need people with courage like yours.

Oops. I hadn't considered the posibility that it was sarcasm, sure, Sorry, it was probably sarcasm.

Quote:
Next phases: Stop voting for a leader. The USA is the "free world" and yet we have a RULER. Does that sound right to you?

Absolutely. It says so in the consitution. The constitution is not just the founding document of this country, it is based on the constitution of the five nations, the binding oath which from oral tradition became a document and heavily influenced the founding fathers.

The reality is, America is not a chaos set up by white people. That would be Australia. America is an entity into which we immigrated in large numbers. The consitution in its present form is very much a reflection of the consitution as it existed when we came. Point being, it's the law of the land, as it was before we, our ancestors, immigrated here. It is not ours to change.

Quote:
Start boycotting. Oil and whatever else we buy that supports our government and other governments.

This is what you can do in a free society. More effective than a boycott would be to work on alternative energies.

Quote:
To the other posts:

I knew I would run into people like you. You're afraid of being persecuted. You're too complacent. You fear authority and change. WE DESERVE BETTER.

God never said not to act with violence. He said "Don't kill."

Actually I believe it was litteral thou shalt not commit murder. God was into genocide.

But you're really well and truly missing the point.

Fear persecution?

How about this: We believe in the system. You are threatening the system. You are rising up in opposition to us.

Sure, we should have better leadership than Bush. And we have a system, many actually, for getting rid of him. He could be impeached, imprisoned, forced to resign, voted out of office, or through the course of legal action the union could be dissolved.

In all cases, the law of the land is quite likely to remain. The constitution, the founding document of not only this union, but all 50 of its states, will continue to guide us, as will the Declaration of Independence. If you has cited the DoI imperative to throw off unjust rule and had used it as a pretext to start a course seeking legal action to disolve the union, your response would have been different.

But, if we do as you suggest, and abandon the constitution, then we open up to the possibility of abject tyranny. The new rule, even leaderless rule, might be a communist oligarchy, regardless of what you intend. Remember, it was not Lenin who overthrew the Czar, it was Kerensky. Once the old order is gone, the new order will be replaced by another new order until there is one which is strong and cannot be defeated. This new power of iron will cannot guarantee the level of checks and balances that this current system has. I look around the globe and I can see no system which is more equitable and fair to its people and more allowing of control and condemnation of its leadership, then this one, so I choose to defend it.

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 2:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn:

And a fruitcake is born.

I think we're probably more alike then we'd care to admit. I actually originally posted something very similar. I believe it went something like this: "Bring out the tin foil hats"

But then I went back and edited and wrote the post you saw. I thought that maybe it was better to talk him out of it before he got shipped to guantanamo, or hurt someone.

Really, I'm glad whenever a couch potato wakes up to the fact that he's the one doing nothing and allowing evil to flourish, but they tend to be overanxious when you first wake them up.

But before we just give him the blue pill, maybe he can stop and think about it before deciding on a course of action.

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 2:51 AM

Quote:
Not me. I’ll be doing the monitoring. I’ve been implanted to infiltrate and observe the highly dangerous Browncoat organization.

Ah, but what you don't realize is that when your boys at army threat assessment sent you on this dangerous mission, they began monitoring you. How many times has he watched each episode? Did the fact that he watch the train job or ariel multiple times indicate that he's gone over to the other side?

We see it all the time, infiltrate, stockholm syngrome, lead the rebel group to victory, become a tin-plated dictator. Just as long as you don't cancel our shows, we'll be happy.

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 2:57 AM

Hardware,

That was the very quote I was hoping he would come up with. But I said that already, and of course the founding father were aware that what they were committing was treason, but it was treason against a government they did not recognize. But if they did that, they would do what Washington did, and succeed. In order to do that, they would first need to support people to office in their own state, and seek that legal proceding.

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 2:59 AM

Reaverman,

That was a terrific analysis of what would unfold. You should write science fiction.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 2:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
I was thinking recently about the differences between the movie and the V for Vendetta comic book. In the comic neither the government or V were especially pure. V's motives where principly revenge and a craving for anarchy while the Fascist government saw itself as the saviors of the people. Each saw themselves as the good guys, each were polar opposites, tyrany vs anarcy and neither would be any sane person's choice as a form of political system.

That was the impression I got too. It was evident that the methods used by V to achieve his goals were essentially identical to those used by the government he opposed; only the goals differed. And it is really quite an open question as to whether anarchy was any better then fascism. Unfortunately, the movie muddied this aspect, and instead depicted V as a superhero, thereby obscuring the theme of the book.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 4:34 AM

And besides, "the government" isn't your biggest problem. It's those corporations. You think you'd have freedom in global-uber-corporatism? Try cleaning up the environment, or working at a meaningful job for reasonable pay, or getting Firefly back on TV. Oh yeah little man, try rising up against that. All of the big decisions are out of your hands. BUT, you get to choose from 40 different kinds of toilet paper! Now ain't that swell???

From the lofty heights of corporate boards, we are as ants, with one colony pitted against another for the benefit of a few. And unlike democracy, which at least has the theoretical input of its members (until it's corrupted money) you have no way of moving those giants. You can withold your taxes fro the gov, but you still gotta pay at the gas pump. It may be that political democracy is our best weapon against economic tyranny. So who'd want to get rid of that?

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

RUE

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:12 AM

Fletch2,
Nuts.... now I'm craving fruitcake.
It had that effect on me too !

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

RUE

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:15 AM

River,
Now this is what I call a motivated man! You have courage, but don't be too surprised when the guys in black suits and cars stamped "Secret service" show up in front of your house.
I have it on good authority that they drive white unmarked cars with HEAVILY tinted windows.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

RUE

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:24 AM

SignyM

Oh yeah little man, try rising up against that. All of the big decisions are out of your hands. BUT, you get to choose from 40 different kinds of toilet paper! Now ain't that swell???

DAMN ! Now where is that emoticon that shows a happy face and clapping hands ??? !!! Well, you get the idea.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

REAVERMAN

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
And besides, "the government" isn't your biggest problem. It's those corporations. You think you'd have freedom in global-uber-corporatism? Try cleaning up the environment, or working at a meaningful job for reasonable pay, or getting Firefly back on TV. Oh yeah little man, try rising up against that. All of the big decisions are out of your hands. BUT, you get to choose from 40 different kinds of toilet paper! Now ain't that swell???

From the lofty heights of corporate boards, we are as ants, with one colony pitted against another for the benefit of a few. And unlike democracy, which at least has the theoretical input of its members (until it's corrupted money) you have no way of moving those giants. You can withold your taxes fro the gov, but you still gotta pay at the gas pump. It may be that political democracy is our best weapon against economic tyranny. So who'd want to get rid of that?

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

Amen! Eliminate corporate influence in government, and you've solved many of the world's problems. The trick is to figure out how to do that peacefully (no blowing up bilboards, Jonus!

) and perminantly...

REAVERMAN

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 12:31 PM

Quote:
I'll follow God's laws but not some super conservative fuck who justifies his actions in the name of God.

Kind of off topic, but just so you know, according to the Bible(OT), God's law is that if you violate any one of the ten commandments, you are to be put to death (seriously, it really does say that; And I do recall a commandment about killin'). Or did you mean the New Testament, where you are supposed to be a pacifist who is, as I mentioned, a pacifist. Ya know, someone not inclined to, oh, I dont know, VIOLENT UPRISING!?!?

JONUS

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 1:52 PM

This is really sad. I never knew that all of you were such whores. I thought Browncoats were actually brave enough to fight for something.

Just remember when the end of your life comes that you weren't brave enough to fight for anything. Not strong enough to fight for yourself, your friends or your children.

THESOMNAMBULIST

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 2:10 PM

Hmmm Jonus

If the meaning of life is to overthrow governments, then that means governments are needed in life to be overthrown.

Thereby removing them removes the meaning of life - so to give your life meaning you must have them there all the time or else your life becomes meaningingless....

....See where I'm going with this....

Other than that fair 'nuff.

Although everyone knows the meaning of life is 'blancmange'

...don't they?

www.cirqus.com

SIGNYM

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 2:10 PM

Have YOU been followed by the FBI?I have And all because of what I posted on-line. (I cautioned about bio-warfare two weeks before the anthrax letters were mailed and I'm technically trained. That was enough.) Consider that I have a chronically ill spouse and a brain-damaged child and I'm still posting and I'm still pushing.

But it shouldn't be necessary to grab your semi-automatic to change the government. You convince a bunch of people to think the way you do and you can have your own 'velvet revolution'.

And DAMN. Now I have "revolution" in my post! That's one more thing to go into the file. Oh, well. If I stop posting, you'll know I'm vacationing at Club Gitmo!

BTW- Rue is correct. They have heavily (illegally heavy) tinted windshields.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

JONUS

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 2:25 PM

I own no guns and have no intentions of getting any. I have no knowledge of explosives and have no interest in them. No knowledge of biological weapons or any type of weapon.

I'm done here but the internet's a big place.

Now, lets close the topic.

TANKIN

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 2:36 PM

Has anyone seen Team America? Joke of a movie, but there is one concept which is plausible beyond reason. You destroy government, there'd be anarchy. What you suggest is turning the first-world countries into third-world (Sorry for the discriminatory classification on poverty, just trying to make a point, I DON'T think myself better than any other) destroying government is a grand way to end society completely. You need to think of the whole, not just the one.
Taxes pay to service your roads, get your garbage to the tip, even the other mundane tasks of everyday life. We may not like paying them, but they're a necessity, even if the government is ripping us off.
Unfortunately democracy to date is dead. It's all rigged. I can prove this with only conjecture.
If any other Aussie posts on these boards I'd appreciate support. :) John Howard. This man is a joke of a PM, yet he's titled Australia's best Prime Minister...Doesn't say much for us, but anyway to my point. The last few elections I've asked everyone I know offline, online, and got them to ask all they know, an easily totalled tally of 5000+ people within a variety of districts. TWO and only TWO confessed to voting for Howard, everyone else confessed their hatred which I felt mutually with them. Now in the last elections(you must keep up with politics to confirm any of this) the news stated that "John Howard has thrashed on the polls" yet they slightly confused this by stating "The entire country is surprised." The entire country was surprised because NO ONE voted for John Howard, yet still he 'thrashed' the polls...Now it only made sense for the election to be rigged if Bush got re-elected too. (Our Prime Minister was voted in shortly before Bush was voted in.) So I told all my American friends, with a high guarantee, that Bush no matter their vote, would end up President. So what happened? He won the election. Now the conjecture started to piece together. Howard has always been in Bushes pocket, so without Bush the theory of an Australian election being rigged seemed ludacris. That Yank fella (sorry, forgot his name) that helps govern Australia as Howard's 'right hand man' is an affiliate with Bush's political cabinet. Now HE'S going up for election to run our country. I saw in some interview that if John Howard failed his ministral duties, that american fella would end up running Australia...Nice way for Bush to usurp Australia out from the Queen's thrall. Morale to story: Voting is useless.
Now back to the point. Violence begets more violence. Wordplay is far more effective than swordplay (metaphorically), so just remember there is always another way to fight a war. Although you have to wonder about what our governments *don't* tell us......Still, do you truly think things would be better if we killed off democracy? Heretical anarchy bro, it's not worth it. Just go back to your video games, movies and drugs, escaping reality as best you can like the rest of us, and hope one day things will finally change for the better. Anyway it's not just the American government that's screwed up...EVERY government on Earth have their conspiracies, and they need to keep conspiring just because all the others are conspiring. Life as we know it has become a paradox. Maybe we should just make big spaceships and fly to a new solar system where we can all start out fresh? I'm gonna shut up now before I rant out this entire topic. o.o

HERO

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 2:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonus:
I own no guns and have no intentions of getting any. I have no knowledge of explosives and have no interest in them. No knowledge of biological weapons or any type of weapon.

Then how the hell do you expect to overthrow the government? Thats like inviting us all to dinner and not having any food or asking a Democrat to give a lecture on morals. You need the tools to do the job. Otherwise your just a tease.

H

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 3:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Then how the hell do you expect to overthrow the government? You need the tools to do the job. Otherwise your just a tease.

Stop encouraging violence, Hero! I thought you were all about the law...

Judge Hero:
"I can't break the law; I AM THE LAW!!!!!"

Take it to those who have it not Chrisisall

HERO

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 3:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tankin:
EVERY government on Earth have their conspiracies

That's true. Why just today...and don't tell anybody you heard this from me...my fellow prosecutors and I conspired with several City police detectives to have lunch at a very good and inexpensive local Mexican resturant. They have actual SMD (Salsa of Mass Destruction).

I'm having the Chicken Burrito, bird flu be damned.

H

JAYTEE

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 4:30 PM

Jonus, we have a government that may not be perfect in it's implementation but it is the closest thing to perfect in it's ideal. While I agree that some things in this country need changing, violent revolution is not the best approach. What is needed today is for people to "get off the damn couch" and participate in their government. Unfortunately, most Americans today are as stupid as they are lazy and that makes up the majority. Our leaders love this fact as they know they can manipulate the minority who still participate through either greed or misinformation. Our system has within it's very framework the capacity for peaceful change which is always preferable to revolution. We must elect leaders who truly have the best interests of ALL Americans at heart and not just a wealthy minority or big business. I would like to paste in this one section of the Declaration of Independence that shows what our forefathers thought about tyrannical governments. I only hope that Americans wake up to what is going on in their nation and are able to solve the problems and issues we face without the need for violence.

EXCERPTED QUOTE FROM DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government.

Now this might have been called treason by some but our forefathers risked that and won. We won a nation based on the Rule of Law, not the Rule of Men and we must all protect it and guard it's freedoms as the most precious resources our country possesses.
God Bless America!
"You can try burning my flag but I'd advise you to make sure your life insurance is paid up!"

Jaytee

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 5:22 PM

I for one, understand the sentiment, Jonus - the application however is a matter that in these dark McCarthyish days, would be better kept between yourself and your maker.

The walls have ears, as it were.

I myself do NOT agree with the whole concept of playing a rigged game, with marked cards, on the sharpers table, and expecting to accomplish a goddamned thing.

At what point does "within the law" become ludicrous ?
When your protest gets herded into the sub basement of a parking garage 2 miles from the event ? yeah, that'll be real effective.

Don't let any of the mockery bother you - note how effectively your own 'peers' try to hack you off at the knees long before any of the alphabet goons would even bother, and remember the lesson from it, in an age where principles and integrity are scored, and fear rules with an iron fist (count how many times someone mentioned Gitmo), the powers that be depend on the masses to restrain and rat out anyone who *might* pose any kind of threat.

And for all those of ya mockin someone for daring to express such an opinion or feeling?
Shame on you, I dock your coat one shade of brown!

Act according to your conscience, Jonus, but keep it between yourself and your grave, cause no one else really needs to know, unless yer into self-glorification, rather than effect.

And now, to a serious point you'd damned well BETTER understand.

I highly suggest before you take any action at all, you take a good, long, hard look at Iraq - this is what happens when you try to force 'freedom' down on people who were unwilling to TAKE it for themselves... chaos, bloodshed, anarchy, factionalism.

A.E. Van Voght's "The Weapon Shops of Isher" also illustrates this issue and what can be done when a people are unwilling to throw out a corrupt regime.

You can not, and should not, try to force freedom or a change of established order down upon folks who are unwilling or unable to stir themselves from their comfortable little lives to do it themselves - they do not want it, will not keep it, and will resent you for bringing it to their attention when they're trying so damned hard to ignore it.

If you wanna actually make changes, be smart about it, bend the ear of someone with enough power to effect them, rather than trying to raise rowdy with an apathetic and powerless mob who's primary annoyance is gonna be at you, and not the establishment.

I don't often hand out advice, but in this case, it seemed appropriate.

-Frem

PS- Damn good movie tho, that DVD goes beside my Firefly DVDs on the top shelf, and there's no better comment on it's quality than that.

FLETCH2

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 6:52 PM

You know what? If you don't like it well in 2 years you'll get the chance to change it without killing anyone. In fact you can make a start at changing it this year. Round up your family and friends, seriously research the canidates on both sides and support the one most likely to represent you well in government.

WHOME

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 6:56 PM

Calls to violence are not protected by free speech laws. (Acceptable: The government stinks, so let's change it. Not Acceptable: The government stinks, so lets get some guns and start shootin'.) Consider editing your post. Or getting some serious anger management and impulse control therapy.

There are lots of ways to "overthrow" a government. I saw a news report on the changing state of Belarus wherein a young Belorussian man explained that he thought the revolution in his country would be economic, rather than political or military. If you don't like the way your government governs, try organizing citizens to vote for someone else, run for office, print your own publication, do SOMETHING besides encouraging violence. Aside form putting yourself on Homeland Security's radar screen (Hi guys! How's the war on "terror" going? We winning yet?), you're making people think you're a little crazy.

WHOME

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 6:58 PM

Quote:
That's true. Why just today...and don't tell anybody you heard this from me...my fellow prosecutors and I conspired with several City police detectives to have lunch at a very good and inexpensive local Mexican resturant. They have actual SMD (Salsa of Mass Destruction).

I was once involved with a conspiracy to move beer from one place to another. It was very exciting.

HERO

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 7:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by WhoMe:
Quote:
That's true. Why just today...and don't tell anybody you heard this from me...my fellow prosecutors and I conspired with several City police detectives to have lunch at a very good and inexpensive local Mexican resturant. They have actual SMD (Salsa of Mass Destruction).

I was once involved with a conspiracy to move beer from one place to another. It was very exciting.

For the record, the 'Lunchtime Conspiracy' was very successful. Our low-priced, high-quality Mexican food was very good and no Mexicans were injured (or deported) during the search for SMD.

H

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 8:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
You know what? If you don't like it well in 2 years you'll get the chance to change it without killing anyone. In fact you can make a start at changing it this year. Round up your family and friends, seriously research the canidates on both sides and support the one most likely to represent you well in government.

Bwahaahahahaha, *cough* hahahahah!

"both"

As in, snivelling little useless, halfass socialista doormats or theocratic facist nutjobs, both of which it's impossible to do any actual research on cause not a one of either has told anything even vaguely resembling the truth in over 100 years.

"both"
*snicker*

I know third parties ain't got what it takes at this point in time, but helping make them viable would be a whole lot smarter choice than the fiction of choice presented to us by a two party system when neither party is worth a damned thing.

I am also amused by the absolute and unacceptable level of stupidity and/or ignorance in some other replies.

Fact - Violence does work as a tool of revolution, you think our forefathers were acting "within the law" when they committed an outright act of treason against the crown ?

Fact - Sometimes it does indeed come to that, go actually read some history, every time any attempt at social change has been made within our borders, the bonus march, civil rights, the confederacy, unions, protests, and have acted within the law, what has resulted in every case ?

Violence - usually instituted by the powers that be, against those who were acting within the law.

Read some of the history of unions within this country, and you'll realize that one of the reasons they're weak and ineffective is because every tactic they used that DID work, was quickly outlawed, and because they were unwilling to respond in kind to violence against them.

I'm not advocating it, just annoyed by naive ignorance - would you have advocated staying 'within the law' to slaves in 1859 ?
Think they'd have gotten very far with it in the social climate and culture of the times ?

THINK, for crying out loud, please.

Quote:
Originally posted by WHOME
Calls to violence are not protected by free speech laws.

Tell that to Ann Coulter, or Pat Robertson, or any other hate-spouter of *ANY* stripe on the radio or internet, most of whom drone on and on about it without any fear of the jackboots kicking in their doors.

So is it really free speech ? or is it just free for certain special people, or what ?

Constitutionally, yes, it *IS* free and protected speech to call upon your brethren to take up arms, in fact, if one would go READ the damned thing instead of spouting spoon-fed legal distortions of it, one would almost say at a certain point it's not just 'free speech' but downright *required* by the document, as the highest law of the land.

Whether that point is now (and I do not believe so, not just yet....) or not is a matter of opinion and perception, but the document itself, as well as the federalist/antifederalist papers (the working notes of the constitution, more or less) is abundantly clear on that issue.

Free Speech is Free Speech, that means puttin up with folks spouting stuff ya don't agree with, which has seemed to slip right by most folks these days.. you won't hear me callin for someone to apply some duct-tape to Ann Coulter or Pat Robertsons mouth, they got every right to say what they please - cause in order to demand that right for myself, to demand that it be *universal*, it means I must then accept that others can do so, too.

S'what free speech is all about, and some folks seem to have forgotten that.

-Frem

PIRATEJENNY

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:50 PM

Quote:
.Fact - Violence does work as a tool of revolution, you think our forefathers were acting "within the law" when they committed an outright act of treason against the crown

your absolutely right, and we are so beyond the point of trying to get something done in a lawful manner, because it won't work. I'm not avocating violence myself but I do agree especaially at this point in time, thats the only way to get something done,maybe to get the attention of our government, but it would have to be on a massive scale with hundreds of thousands of people involved if not more, at least in agreement on a consious level.

Somewhere we forgot that we are the government, that its not them but us.

PIRATEJENNY

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonus:
This is really sad. I never knew that all of you were such whores. I thought Browncoats were actually brave enough to fight for something.

Just remember when the end of your life comes that you weren't brave enough to fight for anything. Not strong enough to fight for yourself, your friends or your children.

Jonus, thats because most of these people aren't true browncoats, they would be working for the Alliance, they like to fancy themselves as browncoats but its just not so IMO.
just keep on speaking out!!

PIRATEJENNY

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 10:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by WhoMe:
Calls to violence are not protected by free speech laws. (Acceptable: The government stinks, so let's change it. Not Acceptable: The government stinks, so lets get some guns and start shootin'.) Consider editing your post. Or getting some serious anger management and impulse control therapy.

There are lots of ways to "overthrow" a government. I saw a news report on the changing state of Belarus wherein a young Belorussian man explained that he thought the revolution in his country would be economic, rather than political or military. If you don't like the way your government governs, try organizing citizens to vote for someone else, run for office, print your own publication, do SOMETHING besides encouraging violence. Aside form putting yourself on Homeland Security's radar screen (Hi guys! How's the war on "terror" going? We winning yet?), you're making people think you're a little crazy.

Do you really believe there is a WAR ON TERROR?? I mean do you really believe that, have you seen the administration go after any terroist..tell me who does homeland security effect, does it effect U.S citizens or does it effect terrorist.?

so far I only see it effecting U.S citizens, so that must make us the terrorist, you know if you wear a T-shirit that someone doesn't like you can be arrested and locked up, or spied on for daring to having an opinon and speaking it. so you tell me who is the enemy..?

OLDENGLANDDRY

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 10:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jonus:
I believe I know the purpose of my life. It is to overthrow the government. How did I figure this?

I saw V for Vendetta on Saturday and heard the story of Guy Fawkes and his plan to blow up parliament and in the process kill the king. It struck a chord and deeply inspired me and I have NEVER been so inspired by anything in my life. I've lived my whole life being a fucking couch potato, but I've always hated the government and any man who thinks he's better than another man. Complacent with the shit that goes on. Playing video games all day and watching movies to escape the shit of the world. Working jobs I hate and not being appreciated. Now I don’t want to kill the president. I just want to put the government “out of business”. I’ve been wracking my brain thinking of all that’s wrong with the country and thinking of what to do.

I thought of getting everyone to stop paying taxes. Without the people and their support the government can’t exist. They need us. This would take years to take effect. So we keep our fucking money and use violence if necessary. I've become so sick and fucking tired of accepting the world the way it is. It's time the people take back what's theirs. I'll follow God's laws but not some super conservative fuck who justifies his actions in the name of God.

I can't do it alone. I need everyone. We can take back everything and give it back to the people.

WE ARE NOT FREE. BUT WE CAN BE. It's time to stop being complacent. ACT NOW.

I'm a Jedi.
I'm a Ringer.
I'm a BROWNCOAT.

The realy scary thing is that you have decided to become a revolutionary based on watching V for Vendetta. Maybe you should read some Revolutionary literature; Marx, Engels, Trotsky, Lenin, people who actualy took part in revolutions. Then sit back and re-think your agenda.

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 11:50 PM

Perhaps I'm becomning overly suspicious in my old age, but this just occurred to me, so don't call me stupid just because you already thought of it.

Jonus is a mole. His incendiary posts serve to bait out the fish, like Pirate Jenny, no offense, but you bit the hook, to action to see who here was a potential terrorist. Normally I don't care, I mean, seriously, we chat daily on an open forum about the real world application of the ideas of a TV show and Movie which essentially advocate treason (against the alliance, which they most certainly do.)

So that taken into account, if aomeone was a terrorist, and they decided to forward that position in such an open forum, they are either a) a dumb ass, or b) a plant.

I've never been on an adult forum, but if someone were to go on such a thing, and someone came on and posted "20 bucks for f^&k, Call me candy" with an address, one have to would assume that such a person was a plant for law enforcement. WHy wouldn't the same apply here?

But then again, the more I think about it, the more the dumb ass possibility seems more likely.

Anyway, on to more important things:

Fletch,

They don't have to wait two years, getting rid of Bush could be accomplished right now, you can contact your congressmen and organize an impeachment. Clinton was impeached, and though that failed, it did so mainly because the impeachment came from the opposition party, and that is always too suspect a motive. In a same party situation, I say again, the GOP has everything to gain and nothing to lose by sinking Bush themselves.

I just want to reflect on the possibility that was missed: President Gore or President Gingrich?

CITIZEN

Thursday, March 23, 2006 12:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
Jonus, thats because most of these people aren't true browncoats, they would be working for the Alliance, they like to fancy themselves as browncoats but its just not so IMO.
just keep on speaking out!!

Here we see kommandant Jenny of Browncoat Zentralverwaltung deciding who is and who isn't a Browncoat.

Thus we see that Jenny has learned nothing from either Firefly or Serenity, though I'm confident that she may very well respond to me with how I'm an Alliance stooge and she heard Joss's call to bring down all governments.

All Alliance types are too wear little yellow badges to signify their evil.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

WHOME

Thursday, March 23, 2006 2:24 AM

Quote:
Free Speech is Free Speech,

And a french fry is a french fry. What's your point?

Quote:
that means puttin up with folks spouting stuff ya don't agree with, which has seemed to slip right by most folks these days..

That's a common, but completely erroneous, belief. There's a difference between what's just annoying and what's illegal.

Quote:
you won't hear me callin for someone to apply some duct-tape to Ann Coulter or Pat Robertsons mouth, they got every right to say what they please - cause in order to demand that right for myself, to demand that it be *universal*, it means I must then accept that others can do so, too.

Er, no. I took some communications law classes in college (as a journalism major, I was required to learn exactly what my limits would be), and one of the things we covered was what is and is not covered by freedom of speech laws. I know you don't see any ideological division between different types of speech, but those divisions really do exist. For instance, slander and libel laws curb freedom of speech, as do laws addressing imminent violence. It's all very nice that you "demand" this or that, but limits do exist.

This website neatly addresses some of those issues:
http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/410/410lect08.htm

The section most relevant to this discussion is part 3 under "Unprotected Speech."
Excerpt:
There's a long history of cases involving citizens calling cops "assholes" and other terms, which usually results in some altercation with later allegations of police brutality. Of course, speech that directly threatens the officer's safety ("I'm coming down to the station and kill you") or clearly hinders the officer's performance of their duties is criminal, but certain types of profanity, name calling, and obscene gestures are also not constitutionally protected.

CITIZEN

Thursday, March 23, 2006 2:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by WhoMe:
That's a common, but completely erroneous, belief.

No it isn't. If you don't agree with what someone is saying you can't shut them up. There are limits like inciting racial hatred, sure but that's a completely different thing.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

REAVERMAN

Thursday, March 23, 2006 4:23 AM

Quote:
:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by WhoMe:
That's a common, but completely erroneous, belief.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No it isn't. If you don't agree with what someone is saying you can't shut them up. There are limits like inciting racial hatred, sure but that's a completely different thing.

Actually, WhoMe is correct. It is not protected by the constitution if you say for example "lets all kill the president". You can say how much you despise the president or want him out of office. Hell, you can even say that you wish he was dead, but announcing that you are going to commit an illegal act that threatens someone's safety, or telling someone else to commit such an act is probable cause for you to be searched and/or watched and/or detained. In fact, I can guaruntee that the NSA boys down at Project Echelon (the NSA's communication monitoring division; yes it does exist; the government has never officially admitted its there, but they haven't really bothered to keep it secret)are getting a red flag on their computer screens because I used the phrase "kill the president"(oops, another red flag; right about now, they are probably reading this to check the context to see if its a real threat).

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, March 23, 2006 6:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverman:
Actually, WhoMe is correct. It is not protected by the constitution

Respectively...

No he is not.
Yes it is.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Do you see the words slander, or libel, or threat, in there ?
I surely don't.

Anything beyond this basic context is not constitutional in nature, but in proper observance of Amendments IX and X, within the jurisdiction of the states themselves to decide what is and isn't proper, for example espousing profanity in front of women and children in michigan is a no-no in michigan, but that is a state decision, not a federal one.

So, while announcing a direct threat against a person may indeed constitute probable cause for action, that action is not in the province of the federal government, nor legally it's jurisdiction and any law, act or executive order that would say so fails the test of constitutional trump on the spot and is then invalid.

In short, the Constitution does indeed protect said speech - whether your state does or does not is between you and your state government.

It would really, really help a discussion like this if folks would GO READ THE FREAKIN THING.

And I've said my piece, no sense kickin a dead horse over it, and it's not my job to educate folk who don't seem the least bit interested.

Oh, and Jen ? c'mon, the right to dissent is universal, kid, if you want to be able to state your opinion, ya gotta let other people state theirs, otherwise it's a pointless exercise that just swaps out which side gets to oppress the other.

Respect - gotta bring some, to get some.

-Frem

BROWNCOAT2006

Thursday, March 23, 2006 6:23 AM

Heres an idea... lets stop looking at thes incredibly eary ass piece of work and get on with our incredibly eary ass day?! what Im getting at people is, free speach good, if ya don't like what he is saying plz don't post, choose to ignore it or choose not to, up to you, and FYI Im a little scared that you chose to follow this path based off of a movie, I personally enjoyed this movie as well, but Im not gunna go off and try and dismantel the government... and a true Browncoat would not be saying that a true browncoat does anything a specific way other then love Firefly and serentiy a bit too much, a good example, go watch the serenity intro by joss or read a transcript of it, tells you right there what a browncoat is... said my peace, now im done.

CITIZEN

Thursday, March 23, 2006 9:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverman:
Actually, WhoMe is correct. It is not protected by the constitution if you say for example "lets all kill the president". You can say how much you despise the president or want him out of office. Hell, you can even say that you wish he was dead, but announcing that you are going to commit an illegal act that threatens someone's safety, or telling someone else to commit such an act is probable cause for you to be searched and/or watched and/or detained. In fact, I can guaruntee that the NSA boys down at Project Echelon (the NSA's communication monitoring division; yes it does exist; the government has never officially admitted its there, but they haven't really bothered to keep it secret)are getting a red flag on their computer screens because I used the phrase "kill the president"(oops, another red flag; right about now, they are probably reading this to check the context to see if its a real threat).

No he isn't. My quote is accurate, the "There's a difference between what's just annoying and what's illegal." part was added later but what WhoMe said is still wrong, just slightly less inaccurate.

The original (unedited) text went like this:

Quote:
Originally posted by WhoMe:
Quote:
that means puttin up with folks spouting stuff ya don't agree with, which has seemed to slip right by most folks these days..

That's a common, but completely erroneous, belief.

Notice how the statement is a rebuke to the idea that you have to put up with what other people say even if you don’t agree with it.

Frankly I’m not concerned with what the American Constitution says on the matter, I’m not American. Fact is Freedom of Speech isn’t necessarily what Americans or your constitution decide it is, at least for the world at large.

However if you believe such things are not covered by Free Speech please stop typing. I disagree with what your saying so I bar you from saying it

.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

REAVERMAN

Thursday, March 23, 2006 9:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
Originally posted by reaverman:
Actually, WhoMe is correct. It is not protected by the constitution

Respectively...

No he is not.
Yes it is.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Do you see the words slander, or libel, or threat, in there ?
I surely don't.

Anything beyond this basic context is not constitutional in nature, but in proper observance of Amendments IX and X, within the jurisdiction of the states themselves to decide what is and isn't proper, for example espousing profanity in front of women and children in michigan is a no-no in michigan, but that is a state decision, not a federal one.

So, while announcing a direct threat against a person may indeed constitute probable cause for action, that action is not in the province of the federal government, nor legally it's jurisdiction and any law, act or executive order that would say so fails the test of constitutional trump on the spot and is then invalid.

In short, the Constitution does indeed protect said speech - whether your state does or does not is between you and your state government.

It would really, really help a discussion like this if folks would GO READ THE FREAKIN THING.

And I've said my piece, no sense kickin a dead horse over it, and it's not my job to educate folk who don't seem the least bit interested.

Oh, and Jen ? c'mon, the right to dissent is universal, kid, if you want to be able to state your opinion, ya gotta let other people state theirs, otherwise it's a pointless exercise that just swaps out which side gets to oppress the other.

Respect - gotta bring some, to get some.

-Frem

Okay... I just looked it up, and you're right. The constitution is supposed to protect ALL speech, but it doesn't because the government stopped paying attention to parts of the constitution a long time ago. Just look at the part about no excessive bail. It hasn't been ammended, but the government allows judges to set whatever bail they want to, even if it's in the millions. The fact is, the constitution says that we can say whatever we want, but the government says otherwise. There are laws out there that say that we can't say whatever we want. They are federally enforced. Constitutional or not, that's reality.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, March 23, 2006 2:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverman:
There are laws out there that say that we can't say whatever we want. They are federally enforced. Constitutional or not, that's reality.

And that's the bottom line.
The government uses the Constitution as a guideline, more than actual rules.

Corporations and influence peddelers control all, and changes must be systematic and comprehensive to be effective.
Violence as a tool for social change at this point would turn this country into something resembling a 'Road Warrior' like existence, and BEG another country *COUGH-China* to overtake us.
Just like global warming, the U.S. is going in a direction that can't just be fully reversed.
Lasting revolutionary change can't start with killing the 'bad' guys, they are us. If you point the finger at Bush and Cheney, you have to also point at all who voted for them, all who didn't vote at all, all who shop at Wal-Mart, and all in the military for accepting the orders they are given, and not 'rising up'.

WE AS A PEOPLE need to be educated as to our choices, and I think we're doing just a little bit of that right here. And for anyone to say they're gonna defeat ANY government this big, powerful and reactionary with violence...well, they must just love the romantic idea of dying in Serenity Valley.

Work towards changing Corporate Economics and practice, and the world will change.

I identify myself as a Post-Serenity Valley Browncoat; one that ain't stupid, and one who'll see more change come from a broadwave than a bayonette.

Uncharacteristically serious Chrisisall

HERO

Thursday, March 23, 2006 3:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:

Jonus, thats because most of these people aren't true browncoats, they would be working for the Alliance, they like to fancy themselves as browncoats but its just not so IMO.

I disagree. There are always the crazy radicals out there (Sam Adams and his rock throwing, rabble-rousing, tea partiers and Son of Liberty).

Real revolutions, the ones that last, they come when the conservatives decide to make it happen (John Adams, George Washington, along with some farmers, shopkeepers, and the guys who make shoes). They are the Browncoats. So Jonus and the assorted Pirates can fluster and preen all they want about 'making things happen'. Its when all the Heroes stand up that the world best take notice. And I'm one Hero that more then satisfied to support the President and laugh at the opposition.

H

CHRISISALL

Thursday, March 23, 2006 3:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
And I'm one Hero that more then satisfied to support the President and laugh at the opposition.

You have to support him; you have no choice in the matter.
I voted for Clinton, and I can freely say I made a bad choice. Your ego and professional position don't allow for you to 'take anything back', or admit error, so you'll back him even if it comes to armageddon, and God's gonna blow this whole gig sooner or later, who better than his faithful instrument Bush Jr to get things started in that direction, eh?
WTF, you'll be in Heaven while the rest of us are doin' eternal time at the Hot Sing-Sing, right?

If we could all see things as clearly as you can...

No slave to a belief system Chrisisall

WHOME

Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:24 PM

Quote:
Do you really believe there is a WAR ON TERROR?? I mean do you really believe that, have you seen the administration go after any terroist..tell me who does homeland security effect, does it effect U.S citizens or does it effect terrorist.?

PirateJenny, you don't really understand sarcasm, do you?

WHOME

Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverman:
There are laws out there that say that we can't say whatever we want. They are federally enforced. Constitutional or not, that's reality.

Thank you, ReaverMan, for getting to the heart of the matter.

People forget that the first amendment is, in fact, and amendment. It was the first step in refining what is a dynamic and living foundation for federal government. The founding fathers included a provision for amending the constitution because they expected it to change over time, as society changed, as needs changed, and issues arose which they could not have foreseen while holed up in a small, smelly, hot building in Philadelphia in the summer. (Little-known fact- they shutteerd all the windows to avoid interference and eavesdropping from the outside.)

WHOME

Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:38 PM

Fremdfirma said:

Quote:
Do you see the words slander, or libel, or threat, in there ?
I surely don't.

Anything beyond this basic context is not constitutional in nature, but in proper observance of Amendments IX and X, within the jurisdiction of the states themselves to decide what is and isn't proper, for example espousing profanity in front of women and children in michigan is a no-no in michigan, but that is a state decision, not a federal one.

So, while announcing a direct threat against a person may indeed constitute probable cause for action, that action is not in the province of the federal government, nor legally it's jurisdiction and any law, act or executive order that would say so fails the test of constitutional trump on the spot and is then invalid.

In short, the Constitution does indeed protect said speech - whether your state does or does not is between you and your state government.

Nope. The very first federal libel law was passed in 1798, eleven years after the Bill of Rights was created, which shows that the founding fathers NEVER really intended "free speech" to encompass all manner of speech. (The text of that act is listed here: http://www.law.ou.edu/ushistory/sedact.shtml)

Similar laws have followed, including, most recently, the Patriot Act.

Your refusal to "educate" me is really cute, considering that I seem to know a lot more about this topic than you do.

COSMICFUGITIVE

Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:48 PM

"That's what governments are for, to get in a man's way."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[img] [/img]

PIRATEJENNY

Friday, March 24, 2006 6:45 AM

Quote:
Jonus is a mole. His incendiary posts serve to bait out the fish, like Pirate Jenny, no offense, but you bit the hook, to action to see who here was a potential terrorist. Normally I don't care, I mean, seriously, we chat daily on an open forum about the real world application of the ideas of a TV show and Movie which essentially advocate treason (against the alliance, which they most certainly do.)

lol! personally I didn't take this thread that seriously and still don't, but I think its a FUN thread, you see I totally like the direction that this thread went in, I never did believe the poster was serious, still don't!! I think he's having fun, anyway I hope he keeps it up!!

PIRATEJENNY

Friday, March 24, 2006 6:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by WhoMe:
Quote:
Do you really believe there is a WAR ON TERROR?? I mean do you really believe that, have you seen the administration go after any terroist..tell me who does homeland security effect, does it effect U.S citizens or does it effect terrorist.?

PirateJenny, you don't really understand sarcasm, do you?

I guess not

, I do believe this is the 2nd time I didn't get the jest of your post, hopefully I won't make that assumption again

PJ

PIRATEJENNY

Friday, March 24, 2006 6:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:

Jonus, thats because most of these people aren't true browncoats, they would be working for the Alliance, they like to fancy themselves as browncoats but its just not so IMO.

I disagree. There are always the crazy radicals out there (Sam Adams and his rock throwing, rabble-rousing, tea partiers and Son of Liberty).

Real revolutions, the ones that last, they come when the conservatives decide to make it happen (John Adams, George Washington, along with some farmers, shopkeepers, and the guys who make shoes). They are the Browncoats. So Jonus and the assorted Pirates can fluster and preen all they want about 'making things happen'. Its when all the Heroes stand up that the world best take notice. And I'm one Hero that more then satisfied to support the President and laugh at the opposition.

H

you would so be working for the Alliance, you would be in lock step, a true purplebelly!!

yeah Zero keep telling yourself that because you sure as hell isn't going to hear that from anybody else. your the kind of zero that would try to stop a little old lady from excersising her right to vote, that doesn't sound like a hero, sounds like a coward. and who in the hell would call themselves HERO anyway!!lmao..lol hahahahahahah ahahahalolaaaaahhh

thanks for the laugh zero, but you make it to easy
the only way a person like you can feel powerful is if you align yourself with the likes of this crimnal administration..its really and truly sad and patheic... Ouch!!

you know suddenly its not so funny anymore.

but on the other hand all this talk of Browncoats and purplebellys makes me want to put on a few eppies of Firefly.

CHRISISALL

Friday, March 24, 2006 2:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
and who in the hell would call themselves HERO anyway!!

Someone who tows the party line, supports prisoner torture, wants war to secure oil, cares nothing for the truth, but likes Firefly, and feels the need to upgrade himself slightly from the slime he works with and create the delusion that he's even just a little like Mal, so he can enjoy the show a little more.

Deep down, he knows he worships at the Operative's altar, and there's the conflict.

Did I answer your question, PJ? Chrisisall

HERO

Friday, March 24, 2006 2:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
and who in the hell would call themselves HERO anyway

The name origin and meaning of Hero
Name: Hero
Gender: (Male and Female)
Origin: Greek
Meaning: Brave Defender

Its not an uncommon name. Shakespear even had a "Hero" in one of his plays...

What you really mean to ask is why did I choose the name?

Perhaps it was a tribute to the legendary 'Hero of Canton'. Perhaps it was because I won a Bronze Star in the First Gulf War. Perhaps because I once pulled a child from in front of a speeding car (drunk driver). Perhaps because I adopted a rescued puppy. Perhaps a love a good sandwhich. Perhaps, perhaps perhaps, and perhaps you and others have a few perhaps of your own. The reason is personal and will remain so.

Lets look at your name. Piratejenny. Well Jenny is a pretty common and innocent name. A pirate, while fun and colorful in some respects (aargh!) is in truth little more then a common thief and little less then a terrorist. Put them both together and you've chosen to name yourself in honor of those who have none and seek none.

I'd take a 'Hero' over a 'Pirate' anyday...in fact I did.

My contention was an intellectual argument about the nature of revolution. My proposition was that radicals might try and lead the way, but its the conservatives that move society in a particular direction. You response was to make fun of my name. Well done. Perhaps we can engage in an enlightened discourse on your love of balloon animals and birthday cake (both fine topics and enjoyable in their particular context), that might be more your speed.

H (for Hero

)

CHRISISALL

Friday, March 24, 2006 3:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

I once pulled a child from in front of a speeding car (drunk driver).
I adopted a rescued puppy.

You support a corrupt administration.
Corrupt. Indefensable. They do illegal things. And it's okay with you.
If I said I supported Saddam, that would mean I supported his administrations actions, right? Killin' lots of innocent folk, right?
While Bush is NOWHERE near as bad as Saddam was, he's still far from the pure, innocent, benevolent soul you and your type try to make like he is.

So in supporting Bush, you support WAR FOR OIL, prisoner abuse, LYING to the American people...I could go on, but you'll just put the spin on it that makes you most comfortable, 'cause that's what it's all about, YOU being comfortable, and reality beyond you own immediate experience does not easily lend itself to that, thus your need to bend it...

Coward.

Not a Hero, just Chrisisall

BROWNCOATCRUSADER

Friday, March 24, 2006 3:58 PM

Everyone Hear ME! THE NSA is monitoring this thread intently. I can't tell you how I know. Buddy, you seriously have to chill. Mal had a space ship to run to. You'll have a dumpster in Nigeria to hide in. Besides, If your in love with all these Sci-FI shows, 60% chance that the recoil of a gun would blow YOU 80 feet back.

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, March 24, 2006 5:14 PM

WHOME spouted..

Quote:
Nope. The very first federal libel law was passed in 1798, eleven years after the Bill of Rights was created, which shows that the founding fathers NEVER really intended "free speech" to encompass all manner of speech. (The text of that act is listed here: http://www.law.ou.edu/ushistory/sedact.shtml)

Similar laws have followed, including, most recently, the Patriot Act.

Your refusal to "educate" me is really cute, considering that I seem to know a lot more about this topic than you do.

Issat so ?

You do realise that what you are quoting as our first 'libel' law was an attempt to utterly destroy free speech in this country, don't you ?

The Alien and Sedition acts you refer to, were considered by most to be an absolute affront to everything this country ever stood for, and were without a doubt an attempt to destroy the very freedoms that the constitution protects.

Journalists unfriendly to the establishment were arrested and tried, in a haunting parallel to the Zenger case not so long before that.

And it was done again, by Federalist/Republican government under lincoln, and again, under this administration - historically the Federalist/Republican party has despised the bill of rights and free speech as a whole, history proves that beyond any reasonable doubt.

But our founding fathers damned well intended that said speech should be free, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison came out very strongly against the Alien and Sedition acts, and came one step short of calling for the state of Virginia to secede from the union.

And you'll note that said act was more or less yanked in 1800, and in fact it was never determined whether it was even constitutional, never having been submitted to the supreme court for that test, which it would have failed utterly, at the time.

It was this brawl, and others that followed that fragmented the original parties, and is referenced as an example of how much this country values free speech and how important it is.

From Adams, to Lincoln, to Wilson, Hoover, McCarthy and HUAC - every time one of these issues comes up, be it states rights, communism, unamericanism, and now 'terrorism' - look at this history ?

Each and every time it's been exposed as naught more than a political power grab that's harmed our country, harmed our citizens, and caused untold suffering, and for what ?

More people die in bathtubs every year than from 'terrorism' - should you quit bathing and ask for the eradication of bathtubs then ?

Freedom has it's risks, and in the case of free speech, to support it is to take the risk of someone offending you - that's fine, I can deal with being offended, given I drive a cab in detroit, there's a whole plenty of offensive things bein said in both directions on most days.

You really think it's worth it to me to file libel against some jerk who just called me a dumb blind jackass ?

By your call that's liable, right ?
Because at least two of those statements are untrue.

Such laws do not exist to protect anything except maybe the egos of the wealthy and powerful, and in fact and practice are used to suppress and demolish free speech as a whole.

Your attempt to 'educate' by expressing what are more or less spoon-fed distortions of historical and legal fact has fallen fairly flat, and in all honesty, if you've that much interest in the topic, please, PLEASE read the Federalist Papers, Anti-Federalist Papers, and the relevant history (and from several sources so one can seperate facts from bias, please) concerning these things.

It's all well and good to say our founding fathers meant this or that, but when you have read, in their own words, a direct explaination of EXACTLY what they meant, then you can say you know.

Federalist Papers
http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/
Anti-Federalist Papers
http://www.constitution.org/afp/afp.htm

My personal fav would be Anti-Fed Patrick Henry, cause if you go back and read a lot of the stuff he said - he was indeed right and kne

CHRISISALL

Friday, March 24, 2006 6:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

My contention was an intellectual argument about the nature of revolution.

Without the ability to admit error, even on a broad spectrum of notions, you cannot have an intellectual argument, you can rant and avoid facts, but not debate.

My best friend eats cows (I'm a veggiesaurus), and when pushed as to how he can do this, he replys "Listen, I don't care about the cow's feelings or what pain they went through, I WANT a hamburger sometimes."
Truth. "I don't care.."
I disagree with him, but he isn't bull

ng me. Or himself.

Just say that you don't care what laws Bush breaks. Just say that you don't care particularly why wars are fought.
Just say that you don't care if people are tortured or not.

I'm hammering here 'cause I'm curious as to whether people can be awakened to the fact that human misery means nothing to them as a consequence of not wanting to think clearly about these things. Is reality too much to be intellectually and emotionally accountable for?

Either you're a hard-core misanthrope, or you need to excuse those whom you support out of purely emotional reasons, which is it, Hero?

Chrisisall, inconsistancy huntin'

Edit: P.S. If you're takin' time to give me the proper reply to take the wind out of my arguments, remember; you put drunks in jail. They're not a particularly hard crowd to outwit in court.
I.e., you're not as smart as you think you are, just go ahead and post it, and don't bother over-thinking it...

CHRISISALL

Friday, March 24, 2006 6:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

My personal fav would be Anti-Fed Patrick Henry, cause if you go back and read a lot of the stuff he said - he was indeed right and knew a lot more about human nature than some of the more idealistic of our founders.

Where were you when my High School History teacher was falling asleep behind his newspaper in class?
You should be teaching this stuff.

Deprived Chrisisall

CITIZEN

Friday, March 24, 2006 6:30 PM

Chris, not like you, chill.

Let 'em rant and rave, Conservatives are saints, they never do anything wrong, ever, anything bad done by Conservatives or the Right at large is because of evil Socialist bogeymen that infiltrated their minds with the body snatcher super evil powers. Commie-Nazi-Jews are every where!

All the Right-wingers here give the same argument more-or-less, even Dreamtrove, they're completely in capable of admiting they do bad things too.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

WHOME

Friday, March 24, 2006 6:33 PM

Quote:
By your call that's liable, right ?

Libel, not liable, but thanks for playing. And it's not libel by anyone's call. (Thanks for "educating" me on another topic you don't understand.) Calling someone a dumb, blind jackass isn't libel. For a statement to be proven libelous, that statement must be published (otherwise, it's slander), people have to believe it, and that belief has to somehow negatively effect your life. The courts also look for something called "malice aforethought", which means the person meant to hurt you with his or her statement.

Look, sweetie pie, I never said I agreed with all the laws in question. The point was that complete freedom of speech in the U.S. has never existed.

Quote:
More people die in bathtubs every year than from 'terrorism'

I would absolutely love to know where you got that number.

Quote:
Anyhow, in spite of my earnest desire to simply insult you and drive on

How 'bout if I insult you and drive on? Is that okay?

Quote:
I figure at least SOME folk might take the time to read and learn, and if so... time well spent.

Did you bother to read any of the links I posted? Or is this one of those situations where anything not in line with your current opinions doesn't exist for you?

CHRISISALL

Friday, March 24, 2006 6:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Chris, not like you, chill.

Sorry, I suddenly felt the need to call Hero on his nonsense. I sense the good in him, the conflict.
Just seein' if I can shake some truth out of him, is all. I ain't as angry as maybe those last few posts sound.

I can bring him back to the good side.
*starts choking*

Okay, but maybe I can try, anyway.

Chrisisall with the Force

CITIZEN

Friday, March 24, 2006 6:47 PM

Sometimes it's like talking to Children you know. They just stick their fingers in their ears and repeat the mantra...

The right is right there is no other way, the right is right there is no other way...

Sweet, well almost.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

CHRISISALL

Friday, March 24, 2006 6:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by WhoMe:
For a statement to be proven libelous, that statement must be published (otherwise, it's slander), people have to believe it, and that belief has to somehow negatively effect your life.

So if the guy called him a dumb blind jackass in front a bunch of people who passed the word that his cab should be avoided, and a passing neighborhood reporter put it in the local newspaper, and his livlihood was negatively affected,....

Forget it, I don't remember where I was going with this....

Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Friday, March 24, 2006 7:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

The right is right there is no other way, the right is right there is no other way...

Strange, but in most posts I read by Hero, I detect a self-loathing, as if he isn't totally at ease with himself or what he does. Must be why he does the good stuff he does, to make up for a missing piece somewhere. He knows it, on some level.
All I have to do is get him to give up his opulent lifestyle and dump that insanely beautiful girl (Who's only with him for the $ anyway), and start driving a Hyundai, and that will be a good start!

Then he'll realize that he only supported Bush and Team Evil 'cause he was angry at the world, and in angst over all the material posessions he stood to lose if decent men were running this country, and not corporations...

On the other hand, he could just blow me off..

Probably the latter Chrisisall

CITIZEN

Friday, March 24, 2006 7:09 PM

Quote:
On the other hand, he could just blow me off

Such a statement has very different connotations in Britain...

But I know what you mean...

At least I hope...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

CHRISISALL

Friday, March 24, 2006 7:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
On the other hand, he could just blow me off

Such a statement has very different connotations in Britain...

But I know what you mean...

At least I hope...

You know, like smoke or somethin', ya just blow it away, then it's gone... like, it don't mean nuthin to ya- has no real effect...

Get your mind outta the gutter, man!

Chrisisall, with the one about the dumb bank robber that tied up the safe and blew the guard.....

DREAMTROVE

Friday, March 24, 2006 7:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:
On the other hand, he could just blow me off

Such a statement has very different connotations in Britain...

Whereas lass time I was in a friend of mine said after we had just met this young lady professor : "She's seems like a nice girl, we should go knock her up in the morning."

PIRATEJENNY

Friday, March 24, 2006 8:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
and who in the hell would call themselves HERO anyway!!
Someone who tows the party line, supports prisoner torture, wants war to secure oil, cares nothing for the truth, but likes Firefly, and feels the need to upgrade himself slightly from the slime he works with and create the delusion that he's even just a little like Mal, so he can enjoy the show a little more.

Deep down, he knows he worships at the Operative's altar, and there's the conflict.

Did I answer your question, PJ? Chrisisall

YEP!!

HERO

Friday, March 24, 2006 8:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Just say that you don't care what laws Bush breaks. Just say that you don't care particularly why wars are fought.
Just say that you don't care if people are tortured or not.

Seems like your trying to avoid an honost debate by relying on your own false assumptions. Rather then engaging in a dialogue, you dismiss the arguments I make and insert ones you prefer.

So here's what I'll "just say". I don't agree that the President broke any laws, not going to war, not the election, not even the wiretapping. I do care why wars are fought and I think this one, meaning the broad war on terror as well as the particular war in Iraq, is more then justified by the actions of the party-opponants. Finally, I do care if people are tortured and I support the zealous prosecution of any American official who breaks the law in such a manner, yet I also believe that under certain, very limited, circumstances torture is necessary and proper even within the framework of the Constitution (which courts have noted is not a suicide pact).

Quote:

Either you're a hard-core misanthrope, or you need to excuse those whom you support out of purely emotional reasons, which is it, Hero?

I neither 'hate mankind' nor am seeking an emotional outlet. Your imagination is somewhat limited if you cannot come up with more then two possibilites here, including the one where I am 'a true believing patriot whose informed and educated opinion on these particular issues happens to differ from yours.'

Quote:

Edit: P.S. If you're takin' time to give me the proper reply to take the wind out of my arguments, remember; you put drunks in jail.

Actually I was taking my time putting people in jail. Taking the wind out of your arguments doesn't take much time at all.

Quote:

They're not a particularly hard crowd to outwit in court.

No. Its the lawyers, judges, and juries that take up most of my effort. And its never about outwiting. My style is to tell the truth and let justice sort itself out. Sounds 'corny' but I've never lost a jury trial.

Quote:

I.e., you're not as smart as you think you are,

Maybe not, but I'm a hell of a lot smarter then you think I am.

HERO

Friday, March 24, 2006 8:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
All I have to do is get him to give up his opulent lifestyle and dump that insanely beautiful girl (Who's only with him for the $ anyway), and start driving a Hyundai, and that will be a good start!

Hmm...my hot blonde nurse and new Mustang or a plumpy feminist and good gas milage. I'll have to think about that one.

And my oppulant lifestyle...on a government salary? If I hadn't had a wealthy grandfather to help fund lawschool, I'd take offense to that. Between him and my part-time job I managed to get out with about half the average student loans, so yeah...oppulant. If it wasn't for the bribes and kickbacks I'd be driving the low priced import and dating someone like PirateJenny (no offense).

H

REAVERMAN

Friday, March 24, 2006 8:53 PM

O.K., I think everyone needs to stop for a second. How is mudslinging going to solve anything? First of all, so far, I haven't seen a single person here say that they support anti-free speech laws, so stop jumping all over Hero. If he did everything he said he did, then he deserves your utmost respect, even if you dont agree with his political leanings. I, for example, am a flaming atheist liberal, but I respect the hell out of anyone who can do those kinds of things. Look, federal laws do exist that limit free speech. Some are, in my opinion, very good ideas. Take the slander and libel laws for example. If you were, say, a restaurant owner and you got into a argument with someone outside, how would you like it if they told the local paper that there were roaches in the kitchen and that customer service sucked? True or not, this would cost you a hell of a lot of money. Money that you can never get back. Even if you somehow clear your name, you're stuck with the stigma of being "that guy with the roaches in his kitchen".
I, however, do not believe that the laws should extend any further than that which can harm a person physically, financially, etc...

Chrisisall and Piratejenny, Your absolutism sickens me. Because Hero doesn't agree with you, he's automatically the bad guy, why, I bet he even gobbles up babies.*shakes head sadly* You know nothing about him aside from what he's told you. By taking the stand that you have against him without information about his real character, you are no better than any conservative, George Bush and Adolf Hitler included. As for whether one of us is more like a Browncoat or a Purplebelly, who cares? Both sides want to help people. Both sides have their pro's and con's. It is possible for the two to agree on somethings though. You spend all your time focusing on the differences, but if you look closer and actually ask Hero, I bet he is as against infringing on the constitution as you are, he just has different reasons why.

And will you people stop trying to say what the forefathers would think! You have no idea what they would think. Also, you have to remember that the forefathers were as fragmented and diverse as we are today. Some were Christian, some were atheist. Some believed that we should never have gone to war with Britain for independence, while some would have gladly put every English soldier against a wall and shot them.

If we really want to change things for the better, which, I for one do, then stop bitching about it because this is going nowhere. Do you think the Constitutional Convention created the foundation of our nation by hurling insults and mocking each other? OF COURSE NOT!!! They figured out what they had in common and made a compromise! Have any of you ever heard that term before? It means finding a solution that works for EVERYONE, not the right wing or the left. That is what we should be doing right now. Work together, find out what we all want to do, because even if one side or the other gets their way, there will always be people who disagree and will be pissed at not being included, which will only result in a constant cycle of revolution which leaves us wide open to attack. If we were fighting each other, do you think China would waste a single fuckin' second gettin' troops over here to "keep the peace"? No! The Chinese dont fuck around. They have a military that numbers 20,000,000, and the will to use it. Unless we work together, we'll have our very own Miranda right here in America. In the process of trying to make the world a better place, all we will have done is screw everyone!

All I ask is that you act like rational human beings. I know it's possible, or America would never have been founded. Stop, think, compromise, then act.

OLDENGLANDDRY

Friday, March 24, 2006 9:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

What you really mean to ask is why did I choose the name?

Perhaps it was a tribute to the legendary 'Hero of Canton'. Perhaps it was because I won a Bronze Star in the First Gulf War. Perhaps because I once pulled a child from in front of a speeding car (drunk driver). Perhaps because I adopted a rescued puppy. Perhaps a love a good sandwhich. Perhaps, perhaps perhaps, and perhaps you and others have a few perhaps of your own. The reason is personal and will remain so.

Perhaps it was out of modesty.

CHRISISALL

Friday, March 24, 2006 10:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I don't agree that the President broke any laws, not going to war, not the election, not even the wiretapping. I also believe that under certain, very limited, circumstances torture is necessary and proper even within the framework of the Constitution (which courts have noted is not a suicide pact).

It's not an issue to agree or disagree with. That's my whole problem with it. Do I need to agree that the sun is hot? Bush Broke laws. Bush lied. So did Clinton. Laws are either broken or not. If you go 28 mph in a 25 mph zone, you are breaking a law. If you tell a non-truth to mislead, it's a lie.
Clinton LIED about Monica.
Call it absolutism, but the disagreement should take place over whether it is acceptable to lie, or break a law, not whether it happens. That's nonsense.

I happen to believe it IS acceptable to break certain laws, at particular times. That's not even my beef with Bush. It's gonna (and sometimes SHOULD) happen. But don't act as if we can agree or disagree about the actual actions taken.

I will accept the argument that the war in Iraq will turn out to be a good thing.
I cannot accept that the reason we went there in the first place is based on lies.

*falls over*
Uh.... out o f g a s

Absolutist Chrisisall, realizing that Hero is smart (just gittin' a rise out of ya...)
Edit: NO CITIZEN!!!! Not that kind of rise!! Sheesh!!!

WHOME

Friday, March 24, 2006 10:24 PM

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Do you think the Constitutional Convention created the foundation of our nation by hurling insults and mocking each other? OF COURSE NOT!!!

Yes they did! Some were gentlemen, but others were serious rabble-rousers. There was name calling, threats were made, fists were pounded against table-tops, inflammatory speeches were made, and on several occasions delegates threatened to walk out.

Political gatherings were WAY more intense in the days before t.v. brought them into everyone's home.

CHRISISALL

Friday, March 24, 2006 10:31 PM

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Originally posted by reaverman:

Chrisisall and Piratejenny, Your absolutism sickens me. Because Hero doesn't agree with you, he's automatically the bad guy, why, I bet he even gobbles up babies.

Is that libel?

Sorry, I guess maybe I should have messaged Hero directly, but I can't fathom how issues of yes or no can be turned into maybes.
I don't agree that we bombed Hiroshima. All the evidence is anecdotal. Documentary footage was falsified. Come on.
WMD's didn't exist. Saddam was no eminent threat to the U.S. Torture was acceptable enough until pictures surfaced. These are matters of undeniable fact. That's all.

I find compromise a difficult thing when dealing with facts.

I usually try to get us to be agreeable, but the wishy-washy maybes aren't helping anything at all.
"Bush lied to get the war he thought was necessary in the long run." I could actually respect that opinion.

Truth and Justice Chrisisall

REAVERMAN

Friday, March 24, 2006 10:32 PM

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Originally posted by WhoMe:
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Do you think the Constitutional Convention created the foundation of our nation by hurling insults and mocking each other? OF COURSE NOT!!!

Yes they did! Some were gentlemen, but others were serious rabble-rousers. There was name calling, threats were made, fists were pounded against table-tops, inflammatory speeches were made, and on several occasions delegates threatened to walk out.

Political gatherings were WAY more intense in the days before t.v. brought them into everyone's home.

But in the end, they were forced to work together to accomplish what they intended. I never said they didn't fight and bicker. What I said was that it never got them anywhere.

"We're gonna explode? I don' wanna explode!"

REAVERMAN

Friday, March 24, 2006 10:57 PM

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Just say that you don't care what laws Bush breaks. Just say that you don't care particularly why wars are fought.
Just say that you don't care if people are tortured or not.

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Either you're a hard-core misanthrope, or you need to excuse those whom you support out of purely emotional reasons, which is it, Hero?

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Edit: P.S. If you're takin' time to give me the proper reply to take the wind out of my arguments, remember; you put drunks in jail.

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They're not a particularly hard crowd to outwit in court.

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I.e., you're not as smart as you think you are,

Hmm... yep, definitely arguing only facts there. Why, I see attack after attack after attack on Hero's character. Yep, you're practically a wellspring of logical discourse.

Look, there is no concrete proof that Bush lied about the reasons for war. I, personally believe that he did lie, but there IS NO PROOF. If there was, he would have been impeached by now. In fact, aside from the wiretapping (completely beyond presidential authority), you have no proof at all that George Bush broke any law. Because there isn't proof, all you and Hero are doing is arguing opinions, which generally turns into a quagmire, because neither side is willing to be convinced, and both sides are too damn stubborn to give it up.

P.S. As for the torture thing, as far as I know, the constitution doesn't cover foreign citizens, so , if Bush is having prisoners tortured, it is not unconstitutional, and as the prisoners in Gtmo are not soldiers from one nation or another at war with us, they are not covered by the Geneva Convention. So, despicable as it is, Bush has broken no law whether he tortured prisoners or not.

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, March 25, 2006 4:53 AM

Ergh, would that I had the sense to not stick my pen into this rusty rat trap, but in the hopes of gettin something worthwhile across to anyone in this thread, here goes.

CHRISISALL

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Where were you when my High School History teacher was falling asleep behind his newspaper in class?

In a nose to nose screaming match with my own history teacher, over some glaring inconsistancies between my 1968 Silver Burdett textbook and Encylopedia Brittanica, and even more differences between either one, and what he was saying.

I wanted to get to the bottom of which version of events was factual, and eventually did, then laid into the poor guy out of the blue in the middle of a thursday afternoon.

Ironically, it was that set of verbal barrages that wound up drawing the whole class out of cruise control funk and got them actually interested in the subject at hand - and the teacher, to his credit as one, let the rather lively disagreements continue as he watched the average grades in his class quickly rise.

An interesting year, that was.

WHOME

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I would absolutely love to know where you got that number.

What, on how many folks fall down and get hurt in bathtubs every year ?

OSHA, Under slip and fall accidents.
US Dep of Labor - Bureau of Labor Statistics is an even better source.

Hell, looks to me like ladders are even more dangerous, you don't see war being declared on them neither, last i heard.

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How 'bout if I insult you and drive on? Is that okay?

Fine by me, unlike you, I do believe in free speech - insult away.

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Did you bother to read any of the links I posted? Or is this one of those situations where anything not in line with your current opinions doesn't exist for you?

I ask of you the same, I was familiar with the Alien and Sedition acts, and their relevant history before you even mentioned them, which rank right up there with the Jim Crow laws for historical cases of unconstitutional nastiness that had no business in american society, whether or not they ever made it into the law books.

I find it odd that in claiming to know the wishes of the founding fathers, you've yet to quote a one of them on the subject, and have not only obviously not bothered to read their own words or opinions on the matter, but do not seem in the least interested in doing so either - so either you've got a seance rolling with a really good medium, or you just assume they agree with what you are saying...

That's a fairly arrogant assumption, when you think about it.

REAVERMAN

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And will you people stop trying to say what the forefathers would think! You have no idea what they would think. Also, you have to remember that the forefathers were as fragmented and diverse as we are today. Some were Christian, some were atheist. Some believed that we should never have gone to war with Britain for independence, while some would have gladly put every English soldier against a wall and shot them.

I ain't sayin what they woulda thought, I'm suggesting folks read what they DID think, hell they wrote it all down for us so we would KNOW what they thought, why they did this or that, it's all a matter of record and available to anyone who can read, so what they thought on topics is not, and has never been, in any doubt.

What's causing issue is when folks made blatant assumptions and suggest they took stances contrary to everything they believed in without taking the time and effort to find out for themselves if they really felt that way.

They were indeed a diverse lot, and yet, unlike us of today, managed to hammer out a pretty decent government in spite of those differences - one could learn a lot from that alone.

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Do you think the Constitutional Convention created the foundation of our nation by hurling insults and mocking each other? OF COURSE NOT!!!

LMAO, Actually it was very much like that, and there was a whole lot of that goin on, I believe a healthy debate on any topic should involve a b

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