Is Joss Whedon a one trick pony?
POSTED BY: AngusThermopyle
UPDATED: Sunday, March 26, 2006 18:03
VIEWED: 16280
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I’ve watched pretty much everything Joss Whedon has done. Actually, I think I have: complete Buffy, Angel, Firefly and Serenity. And it occurred to me that they’re all very similar. I especially noticed this with the Serenity movie.
What is the obsession about teenage girls, skinny teenage girls (almost pubescent, you might say) and violence? It was a shame that he had to make River into Buffy in Serenity. I was expecting so much more. I was hoping for something different and intriguing. I liked the idea that she had the knowledge about the Parliament creating the Reavers by accident with their need to control the populous. I thought that was quite original. But he had to have her beating up a load of fully-grown men.
There seems to be this whole feminist, all men are misogynistic bastards thread running through everything he does. Speak for yourself, mate. I have never hit a woman nor even wished to. I’m also no feminist. I like women and I respect them. I understand that men and women are different and that men and women have different strengths and weaknesses. That’s why we need each other. I’m currently watching Angel season 3 again and I’d been thinking about writing this for some time, and thought I wouldn’t bother, until I got to the Billy episode. It really wound me up. I think JW oversimplifies issues with melodrama. Don’t get me wrong I enjoyed Angel and Firefly. Buffy was a different case, however. It really got pretentious and self-righteous as the seasons went on, especially the final one. That was just ridiculous. I’ve said this before and I stand by it: When the networks cancel JW shows it’s often a good thing. I think he needs someone to say: “Ok, you really should stop now. You’re starting to preach again. And you’ve said this before… A lot.“
When I’ve seen JW giving interviews, it is quite apparent that he does have a penchant for self-import indulgent lyricism. He does like to go on about metaphors etc. Let’s be pragmatic here. They’re just martial arts/horror/sci-fi TV shows. Fun as they are. It isn’t Mervyn Peake or Shakespeare.
I don’t think these criticisms can be laid squarely at JW’s door though. I have noticed that the more pretentious and contentious episodes of the various TV series tend to be written by Tim Minear.
However, Whedon himself wrote Serenity. It was his magnum opus in many ways. He did say it was the movie he’d always wanted to make. But was it as good as Firefly, which does have its own faults? In a lot of ways I think not. For instance, I don’t think he managed to capture the feel of Firefly in the movie. In many ways it felt over produced. I liked the intimacy of the TV series. It didn’t seem to be there in the movie. At least, it didn't seem to be there for me. The other thing that was disappointing and took away a lot of Firefly’s originality was the fact that space wasn’t silent anymore. I really like that about Firefly. I feel it gave it an edge and a loneliness.
Oh and one or two things I just have to mention from Firefly: In the episode Shindig, Sir what’shisface went on about his sash saying it denoted lord-hood. I think that would be knighthood. A lord is a lord and a sir is a knight and I’ll move to queen bish 3. The other thing (which is in most of his series) is that all the good guys are Americans and the baddies are British, apart from one East European. With all JW’s talk about the future being about two superpowers: US and China (unlikely, I think); how come all the crew are American and Chinese people only seem to be in the background, selling from market stalls or walking by? One last thing: Why does he get so many Americans to play Britons? They can’t do it. No American ever has. James Masters doesn’t even know how to pronounce poof! Juliet Landau was the best, but even she is rather a caricature of some Dickensian character (which is ironic as Dicken’s characters are caricatures anyway). And when Summer Glau attempted it in Shindig, I nearly blew a gasket laughing. Pick a county, love: Dickensian London, the west country, Berkshire? The lin
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I'm hearing a lot of complaints out of you which is fine, but just for comparison's sake what did you like about Joss's shows?
-Dan
Ain't that just shiny?
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My husband and I (and all our friends who are fans of buffy and Whedon) agree that Joss should have been born a lesbian. He is completely obsessed with female empowerment. Could stem from the fact that he was raised solely by his mother, dead beat dad no where to be found.
That being said, I don't exactly agree with river being made into "buffy" in Serenity. Two completely different characters who happen to be small in frame, and large in power. Different motivation behind each though. Buffy was "chosen" to save the world from various and assundry mythological beasties. River was an extremely intelligent child who was "created" to be a weapon, most likely of evil intent. She made a choice to use the training and other stuff the scientists put in her head for good, to save her friends. There are definately some similarities though...but as a whole they are much more different, than similar.
Buffy draws very distinct lines between right and wrong. Firefly blurs them. They are thieves & smugglers plain and simple. Sure its wrong but its what they've got to do to survive.
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Actually, I did forget to mention that Angel and Firefly crack me up.
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Quote:
Originally posted by GORRAMREEVER:
My husband and I (and all our friends who are fans of buffy and Whedon) agree that Joss should have been born a lesbian. He is completely obsessed with female empowerment. Could stem from the fact that he was raised solely by his mother, dead beat dad no where to be found.
That being said, I don't exactly agree with river being made into "buffy" in Serenity. Two completely different characters who happen to be small in frame, and large in power. Different motivation behind each though. Buffy was "chosen" to save the world from various and assundry mythological beasties. River was an extremely intelligent child who was "created" to be a weapon, most likely of evil intent. She made a choice to use the training and other stuff the scientists put in her head for good, to save her friends. There are definately some similarities though...but as a whole they are much more different, than similar.
Buffy draws very distinct lines between right and wrong. Firefly blurs them. They are thieves & smugglers plain and simple. Sure its wrong but its what they've got to do to survive.
Interesting. I didn't know that. Appreciate the headsup.
I agree in some respects and disagree in others. I'd say that both Buffy and River were chosen, both by powers higher or mightier than themselves. One for good, as you say, the other a misplaced belief in what was good. Worshipping the devil in the name of God, you might say which in many ways applies to buffy too.
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Hey AngusThermopyle
Always interesting to see a contrary viewpoint on Joss Whedon.
I think in part you're right to his obsessions and preoccupations. Thing is he isn't alone most creative people indulge in their obsessions whatever they may be. I'll site some examples:
Stanley Kubrick :Violence, Sexual diviance and underage sex: A clockwork Orange, The Shining, Lolita, Eyes Wide Shut.
Steven Spielberg :Child hero figures, The hunter figure, Broken families: Close Encouters of the third Kind, ET, Jaws, Duel, Sugarland Express, Jurassic Park.
Disney :I forget the exact figures but aparently only four Disney films have ever dipicted characters who were in a healthy family environment, all the others represent some stem of a broken family.
Tim Burton :Death, Outsiders, skeletons and gothic horror, : Bettlejuice, Edward Scissorhands, Ed Wood, Peewee's Big adventure, Batman.
Ridley Scot : Female hero figures, Long self-indulgent photography, Violent male characters: Alien, GI jane, Thelma and Loiuse, Bladerunner, 1492
David Cronenberg: Sex, Desire, Taboo subject matter: The Brood, Dead Ringers, Crash
Peter Greenaway: Classical references, Literary references, art, nudity: Drowning by numbers, The Cook his Theif his wife and her Lover, The Pillow Book, Baby of Macon.
Guilemo Del Toro: Human/monster hybrids, Water, Yellow light : Blade 2, Cronos, Hellboy.
James Cammeron :Strong female leads, Water, guns, military: Aliens, Titanic, True Lies, Terminator
and so on. It's a common theme with creative types. Many times they're unawre that they do it. I remember reading an interview about Tim Burton and the interviewer was asking him about his [Burton's]obsession with the outsider figure, and up to that point Tim hadn't really worked out that he had that obsession about the films he'd made. It took him by surprise.
In the commentary's I've heard with Joss he has mentioned several times that while he is aware that he isn't making Shakespeare he is also a beliver that while you are working on a project you must 'feel' as though what you're doing is a work of Shakespeare. His argument being that you have to invest so much time and energy into a project, that unless you beieve in it whole heartedly you won't get something made.
I know where he's coming from. I'm a cartoonist and very often I do things that I think: Yup! That's it! It's brilliant a work of genius! But when I'm done and I look at it after the deadline is done and dusted I see it for what it really is: nothing much really, and I know many others' could have done it - but unless I think it is worth my time there and then because it is unique, I won't get the thing done.
Filling a blank pice of paper ain't easy and over a long period of time you have to draw upon those obsessions to fuel your imagination. It's kinda all you have sometimes.
The
Somnambulist
www.cirqus.com
P.S. If he is a one trick pony..... WHAT a trick to have.
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Quote:
I'd say that both Buffy and River were chosen, both by powers higher or mightier than themselves. One for good, as you say, the other a misplaced belief in what was good. Worshipping the devil in the name of God, you might say which in many ways applies to buffy too.
True except that river showed exceptional skills and intelligence from birth "Everything she did came to her as easily as breathing does to us" Her abilities were merely enhanced. Whereas buffy showed an inate ability to match her shoes and lipstick to her current outfit and jumping up n down shaking her pon poms until someone said "Here ya go, have some super strength and speed. Now go kill demons"
You do make an interesting point though.
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How about:
Paul Anderson: fighting, blood, nonsense,un-focused plots- Soldier, Mortal Kombat, Event Horizon, AVP.
You're right on about preoccupations. I say let 'em loose ('Cause they give us flicks like Serenity!!!)
Chrisisall, in reality, a teenage girl that can kill
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Quote:
I remember reading an interview about Tim Burton and the interviewer was asking him about his [Burton's]obsession with the outsider figure, and up to that point Tim hadn't really worked out that he had that obsession about the films he'd made. It took him by surprise.
Clive Barker once took a modern lit analysis class (undercover of course) and they came to read one of his books when he got his paper back, he'd failed. He brought it to the attention of the instructor that he'd infact written the book. The instructor simply replied, "I know who you are, do you think I didn't notice the picture on the back of the book. You write the books and I will analyze them. Now stop wasting my time."
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
How about:
Paul Anderson: fighting, blood, nonsense,un-focused plots- Soldier, Mortal Kombat, Event Horizon, AVP.
You're right on about preoccupations. I say let 'em loose ('Cause they give us flicks like Serenity!!!)
Chrisisall, in reality, a teenage girl that can kill
God yeah Paul Anderson! How? Why? Director for hire syndrome.
Oh well.
www.cirqus.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by GORRAMREEVER:Quote:
I remember reading an interview about Tim Burton and the interviewer was asking him about his [Burton's]obsession with the outsider figure, and up to that point Tim hadn't really worked out that he had that obsession about the films he'd made. It took him by surprise.
Clive Barker once took a modern lit analysis class (undercover of course) and they came to read one of his books when he got his paper back, he'd failed. He brought it to the attention of the instructor that he'd infact written the book. The instructor simply replied, "I know who you are, do you think I didn't notice the picture on the back of the book. You write the books and I will analyze them. Now stop wasting my time."
HA!!! That's priceless
Thanks for that. Remeinds me of that scene in Annie Hall where Woody Allen pulls out the writer of a book who Allen and a fellow cinema goer are arguing about. The writer backing up Allen and chastising the other guy for knowing nothing about his work! And Allen turns to camera and says:"Boy wouldn't it be great if life were really like that!"
The
Somnambulist
www.cirqus.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Hey AngusThermopyle
Always interesting to see a contrary viewpoint on Joss Whedon.
I think in part you're right to his obsessions and preoccupations. Thing is he isn't alone most creative people indulge in their obsessions whatever they may be. I'll site some examples:
Stanley Kubrick :Violence, Sexual diviance and underage sex: A clockwork Orange, The Shining, Lolita, Eyes Wide Shut.
Steven Spielberg :Child hero figures, The hunter figure, Broken families: Close Encouters of the third Kind, ET, Jaws, Duel, Sugarland Express, Jurassic Park.
Disney :I forget the exact figures but aparently only four Disney films have ever dipicted characters who were in a healthy family environment, all the others represent some stem of a broken family.
Tim Burton :Death, Outsiders, skeletons and gothic horror, : Bettlejuice, Edward Scissorhands, Ed Wood, Peewee's Big adventure, Batman.
Ridley Scot : Female hero figures, Long self-indulgent photography, Violent male characters: Alien, GI jane, Thelma and Loiuse, Bladerunner, 1492
David Cronenberg: Sex, Desire, Taboo subject matter: The Brood, Dead Ringers, Crash
Peter Greenaway: Classical references, Literary references, art, nudity: Drowning by numbers, The Cook his Theif his wife and her Lover, The Pillow Book, Baby of Macon.
Guilemo Del Toro: Human/monster hybrids, Water, Yellow light : Blade 2, Cronos, Hellboy.
James Cammeron :Strong female leads, Water, guns, military: Aliens, Titanic, True Lies, Terminator
and so on. It's a common theme with creative types. Many times they're unawre that they do it. I remember reading an interview about Tim Burton and the interviewer was asking him about his [Burton's]obsession with the outsider figure, and up to that point Tim hadn't really worked out that he had that obsession about the films he'd made. It took him by surprise.
In the commentary's I've heard with Joss he has mentioned several times that while he is aware that he isn't making Shakespeare he is also a beliver that while you are working on a project you must 'feel' as though what you're doing is a work of Shakespeare. His argument being that you have to invest so much time and energy into a project, that unless you beieve in it whole heartedly you won't get something made.
I know where he's coming from. I'm a cartoonist and very often I do things that I think: Yup! That's it! It's brilliant a work of genius! But when I'm done and I look at it after the deadline is done and dusted I see it for what it really is: nothing much really, and I know many others' could have done it - but unless I think it is worth my time there and then because it is unique, I won't get the thing done.
Filling a blank pice of paper ain't easy and over a long period of time you have to draw upon those obsessions to fuel your imagination. It's kinda all you have sometimes.
The
Somnambulist
www.cirqus.com
P.S. If he is a one trick pony..... WHAT a trick to have.
I agree with much of what you said, Somnambulist. However, you gave each of those writers/directors quite a few obsessions. And in the main, they aren't preaching about it.
As a writer and musician myself, I do understand about obsessions. Boy do I understand; but that's another story. That wasn't my point. It's the preaching again and again the same point or issue. I don't have a problem with a revisited theme, which isn't actually an obsession, it's more an interest or influence, I think.
PS. Nice site.
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
How about:
Paul Anderson: fighting, blood, nonsense,un-focused plots- Soldier, Mortal Kombat, Event Horizon, AVP.
You're right on about preoccupations. I say let 'em loose ('Cause they give us flicks like Serenity!!!)
Chrisisall, in reality, a teenage girl that can kill
God yeah Paul Anderson! How? Why? Director for hire syndrome.
Oh well.
www.cirqus.com
LMAO, I actually quite like Event Horizon (which is basically The Shining in space), but mainly for the ship. A mate of mine was one of the concept artists who worked on it, as well as Fifth Element, 007's, Captain Scarlet, Thunderbirds, Tomb Raider I and II (Last 3 he thought were all crap.)
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This is funny, cause it's something I stress over all the time. Before I saw Firefly, I saw Serenity in theaters. Before I saw it in theaters, I saw commercials for it. It looked "interesting", but I was again faced with a trailer that highlighted the "In-your-face-kick-ass-and-take-no-names hot chick!" character.
I HATE that character.
I HATE Angelina Jolie and her Tomb Raider, I HATE Charlize Theron and her Aeon Flux, I HATE Milla Jovovich and her Ultraviolet, and I HATE, I HATE, I HATE PETER PAN!
Seriously, how much more one-dimensional can you get? Sex appeal + Violence = MONEY! This formula is the reason people like 50 Cent make successful movies and is therefor EVIl!
That said: I saw Serenity, and despite the presence of two "strong woman" female characters like Zoe and River, I was not annoyed, not in the least bit, by their strength. And you know why I think that is? Because it wasn't being shoved in my face. Also, because the characters had genuine depth. Beating men up was not the extent of their personalities, they had flaws and unique types of strength that made them not only standable, but likeable. Likeable to the point that I wanted to see the series after the movie, and became a very dedicated fan.
On the subject of femanism: Any person that needs to identify or associate themselves with a larger group for "empowerment" is, in my opinion, inheirently weak. I just heard a story the other day about a guy who had been "tricked" into having a child by his girlfriend. He found a "Men's Rights" group, and now they're campaigning for him not to have to pay child support. This idiot couldn't keep it in his pants, insisted on riding bareback, and now he's whinning. He is responsabile for making me realise my own opinion that ALL human interest groups for any given types of people, men, women, negros, hispanics, caucasians and so on are completley counter productive to the cause they claim they're striving for. People should learn to stand on their own and be responsible for their own lives and mistakes, not go off and cry to the government everytime something doesn't go their way.
Anyways, I'm going to crawl back into my hole.
Have you ever:
Used your teeth as wire strippers?
Given yourself stitches?
Made improvised munitions with no base supplies?
Pissed in a canteen?
Gone a month without bathing?
If so, you MIGHT just be a !HOOAH MOTHERF*CKER!
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Quote:Ha! You did not lump Jessica Alba with Dark Angel in there; this obviously means you recognize the depth of her character in it, and the strong, character-driven stories they told on the show! It too, was more than simply 'pretty chick kicks ass'.
Originally posted by ChrisMoorhead:
I HATE Angelina Jolie and her Tomb Raider, I HATE Charlize Theron and her Aeon Flux, I HATE Milla Jovovich and her Ultraviolet, and I HATE, I HATE, I HATE PETER PAN!
I'm with ya, ya got taste.
Also a Dark Angel fan Chrisisall
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Ok I understand your issue now. It isn't fun having someone preach their notions to you I agree . I must admit I've never felt Joss was preachy though, so I didn't pick up on that.
(That said I could give you a fair ol' list of preachy directors, writers painters and musicians but I won't.)
I'd say he is no more a feminist than say someone like Ridley Scott or the Coen Brothers. I think the danger of tackling an issue like Feminism or Rascism is that people perceive the breaching of a difficult topic as preaching. I feel that about elements of Spike Lee's work, however good they may be.
But I think, and I may be wrong, that Joss just saw an untapped narrative thread within cinema: That of the 'blonde' lead fighting back. I wouldn't say he's making a direct observation on the real world so much as flying contrary to accepted 'cinema lore'. ie blonde girl in dark alleyway therefore must die!
But I may be wrong. And if it's any comfort I shall now rewatch all my Joss dvd's for evidence of what you've raised :D
...and thanks BTW.
Cheers
The Somnambulist
www.cirqus.com
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Quote:
With all JW’s talk about the future being about two superpowers: US and China (unlikely, I think);
Not to nitpick or anything, but if you look at the state of the world today, China is an industrial superpower. They make just about everything for everyone (exactly how the U.S. became an important world player). As for military might, their fighting forces number 20,000,000 (with an additional 20,000,000 in "public service brigades" that do jobs like repairing roads and maintaining the country; while not as rigorously trained as the main fighting arm of the military, are ready to fight on short notice). The total U.S. Military strength (including intel analysts, desk pilots, etc... that dont do much actual fighting) numbers 2,500,000- 3,000,000. Three quarters of that is scattered around the globe and in no position to mount a cohesive action quickly. Another thing is, people think of China as primitive and backward, but in most feilds, they are only a couple of years behind the U.S. That's one of the benefits of manufacturing electronics for the most advanced nations in the world. The fact is, China's already a superpower. Most folks just dont want to admit it.
"We're gonna explode? I don' wanna explode!"
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I believe somewhere in the commentary for buffy (season 1 ep. 1?) Joss actually makes a point to say that is where buffy orignated from. He always wanted to see your "typical damsel in distress" turn around and kick her attacker in the nuts, instead of crying or running away she becomes a strong female hero. _Not a direct quote, but you get the idea_
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Quote:
The other thing (which is in most of his series) is that all the good guys are Americans and the baddies are British...
I can't vouch for the accents as I'm American, but I'm pretty sure that one would count Giles and Wesley as good guys in Joss shows. I think Spike in the last seasons of Buffy and Angel would be considered one of the good guys too.
"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care. Or indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all." -Kerr Avon
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AngusThermopyle: wrote:
Quote:
LMAO, I actually quite like Event Horizon (which is basically The Shining in space), but mainly for the ship. A mate of mine was one of the concept artists who worked on it, as well as Fifth Element, 007's, Captain Scarlet, Thunderbirds, Tomb Raider I and II (Last 3 he thought were all crap.)
*Somnambulist back tracking shamelessly about Paul Anderson*
of course if he's looking out for a concept artist "Tchik tchik!" *Does pistol fingers* You know where I am ok. ;)
Incidently nothing wrong with the 'art direction' to any of those films. Nifty stuff all around. So good on your friend.
The
Somnambulist
www.cirqus.com
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He uses the same trick because so few others will. Regardless of what anyone says - there just haven't been many well written strong female characters. There have been more lately - but still not as many as for males.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
What is the obsession about teenage girls, skinny teenage girls (almost pubescent, you might say) and violence? It was a shame that he had to make River into Buffy in Serenity. [...]
When I’ve seen JW giving interviews, it is quite apparent that he does have a penchant for self-import indulgent lyricism. He does like to go on about metaphors etc. Let’s be pragmatic here. They’re just martial arts/horror/sci-fi TV shows. Fun as they are. It isn’t Mervyn Peake or Shakespeare.
Okay, it's a valid point. Have you listened to his commentary for Serenity (highly entertaining, by the way)? He aknowledges his obsession with superpowered teenage girls (which will be continued in Wonder Woman, obviously), and says he doesn't care. Personally, neither do I. I'd only have a problem with it if I thought his work was bad or at least made worse as a result.
You mentioned Shakespeare. All of his plays were full of the same stock elements; it was what he did with those elements that was exceptional. Same with Joss.
Oh, and Mervyn Peake; nice! Love the Gormenghast books (miniseries was really bad, though).
Quote:
The other thing that was disappointing and took away a lot of Firefly’s originality was the fact that space wasn’t silent anymore. I really like that about Firefly. I feel it gave it an edge and a loneliness.
Oh and one or two things I just have to mention from Firefly: In the episode Shindig, Sir what’shisface went on about his sash saying it denoted lord-hood. I think that would be knighthood. A lord is a lord and a sir is a knight and I’ll move to queen bish 3. The other thing (which is in most of his series) is that all the good guys are Americans and the baddies are British, apart from one East European. With all JW’s talk about the future being about two superpowers: US and China (unlikely, I think); how come all the crew are American and Chinese people only seem to be in the background, selling from market stalls or walking by? One last thing: Why does he get so many Americans to play Britons? They can’t do it.
Okay... silence in space: yeah, that was one of my favourite details about the show, and I was a little disappointed they cheated so much to make the movie 'louder.' I still say a silent space battle would be cool -- the contrast between the silent exterior shots and the sudden noise and chaos whenever you switched to inside a ship. Ah, well.
As for British characters always being villains played by not-so-British actors... um... Giles? Anyone?
But regarding the whole lack of Asian characters in the 'verse, yeah, that struck me as unfair, too. It's hilarious; Firefly had such an ethnically diverse cast, and one of my biggest complaints would still be that too many of the crew were white (6 out of 9). We sure have high standards for Joss, don't we?
"We need a hood ornament."
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Yup, there is a sad lack of 'real' female action figures, up until Whedon they were pretty much one dimensional pin ups (ahem, 'one trick ponys')
The neat thing about Joss is he starts with the character in everything, then adds in the 'superhuman' stuff. In Firefly he was already developing Rivers powers (end of War Stories, the three guys dead with her eyes closed) then jumping back into explaining her mindset (Objects in Space)
If he'd had another season or two her progression from fragile teen to super-weapon would have been gradual, and all within the character.
But he didn't get those seasons, so everything got bumped up and for some it jarred a little.
But one thing I wanted to pick up on -misogynistic characters in his work, where?
As far as I can remember, non of his male characters bear those tendencies - Giles, Xander, Wesley, Angel, Gunn, Mal, Simon, Wash -all of them treat women with equality and respect, they are surrounded by strong women and non of them ever had issues. Spike could fall into the category briefly, but his wasn't a woman hating obsession, it was a Buffy love/hate obsession, which is a little different. If you're thinking of Jayne, sure he's a commitment-avoiding, whorin' alpha male, but never anywhere is he a woman hater, he loves women, he's not even a womaniser, he never plays them, all his encounters are open and honest, and in his own way he treats them with as much respect as he's able (brushing that girls hair, his love and support of his mom, his protectiveness of Kaylee). Even Niska seemed to respect Zoe for who she was, probably loves his wife (even if he does kill her relatives) and tortures everyone equally (i'm just assuming here)
About the only misogynist I can think of was the bad guy from Heart of Gold, and hey, look, he's the bad guy.
But I'm genuinly interested in you reasons, so...
**********************************************************
Hodgins: Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
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I agree. I think the only reason he keeps going back to that theme is because there aren't enough strong female roles out there in films today.
It's not his only trick though. There wasn't really a Buffy type character all through Firefly. River was only a weapon for a couple seconds in War Stories. Other than that she was the damsel in distress.
Angel was all about the badass guy fighter who is searching for redemption. There were some strong women who came and went through the course of the show, but they weren't the focus.
Point is I don't think Joss is obsessed. He just portrays strong females really well. So, he stands out.
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Quote:
Originally posted by reaverman:Quote:
With all JW’s talk about the future being about two superpowers: US and China (unlikely, I think);
Not to nitpick or anything, but if you look at the state of the world today, China is an industrial superpower. They make just about everything for everyone (exactly how the U.S. became an important world player). As for military might, their fighting forces number 20,000,000 (with an additional 20,000,000 in "public service brigades" that do jobs like repairing roads and maintaining the country; while not as rigorously trained as the main fighting arm of the military, are ready to fight on short notice). The total U.S. Military strength (including intel analysts, desk pilots, etc... that dont do much actual fighting) numbers 2,500,000- 3,000,000. Three quarters of that is scattered around the globe and in no position to mount a cohesive action quickly. Another thing is, people think of China as primitive and backward, but in most feilds, they are only a couple of years behind the U.S. That's one of the benefits of manufacturing electronics for the most advanced nations in the world. The fact is, China's already a superpower. Most folks just dont want to admit it.
"We're gonna explode? I don' wanna explode!"
I totally agree. China most certainly is a superpower and is growing extremely rapidly. My point was that I don't think the US will be (which I didn't make). And the fact that Chinese people are only on the perifory of the series and movie. There is no central character, only background.
I don't think the US will remain a superpower. I'm not going to explain my reasons for thinking this, as Americans tend to get snippy when you critcise them etc.
www.ChAoS-ImAgErY.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by GORRAMREEVER:
I believe somewhere in the commentary for buffy (season 1 ep. 1?) Joss actually makes a point to say that is where buffy orignated from. He always wanted to see your "typical damsel in distress" turn around and kick her attacker in the nuts, instead of crying or running away she becomes a strong female hero. _Not a direct quote, but you get the idea_
Well, that's all fine and dandy; but you write about that then go on to other things, right?
www.ChAoS-ImAgErY.com
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Just me personally, but my feeling is Joss loves women. He empowers them, and he believes in love. It is as simple as that.
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Quote:
Originally posted by spikeandjezebel:Quote:
The other thing (which is in most of his series) is that all the good guys are Americans and the baddies are British...
I can't vouch for the accents as I'm American, but I'm pretty sure that one would count Giles and Wesley as good guys in Joss shows. I think Spike in the last seasons of Buffy and Angel would be considered one of the good guys too.
"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care. Or indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all." -Kerr Avon
Yes, they certainly are good guys. But they are also both extremely self-conscious bookworms (certainly to begin with). The hero always has to be American, even in historical movies. Example: The great escape )only 3 Americans were involved in the escape out of 600. The rest were British and Canadian. When you watch any modern WWII movie, you'd think the British weren't involved. In Stephen Speilburgs Band Of Brothers epic series, most of the leads are played by British, but the only times that the British are seen is when British Paras need rescuing during Marketgarden and a few British tanks who have clueless commanders.
Also, when Easy Company are back in England and one of the seargants goes to get his laundry from an English housewife, she is portrayed as unfeeling and moneygrabbing, when she doesn't show "respect" for the seargant. It's understandable, the British had been fighting for four years before the US were forced into getting involved.
Also, Britain hasn't had warm beer since before refrdgerators. And our teeth are no worse than anyone elses. Getting to see an NHS dentist could take up the rest of your working life, however. Thanks for that Maggie...
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Oh, and Mervyn Peake; nice! Love the Gormenghast books (miniseries was really bad, though).
Yeah, I was a bit disappointed with the BBC series. I think the dialogue was excellent. I mean Flay was really Flay. But I didn't go for the overall visual feel. I can see what they were doing, knowing that Peake grew up in China... But, I don't think a movie or TV series could ever do it justice. Peake was such an amazing writer. I've never read that amount of stunning description by any other writer. Quite breathtaking.
Quote:
Okay... silence in space: yeah, that was one of my favourite details about the show, and I was a little disappointed they cheated so much to make the movie 'louder.' I still say a silent space battle would be cool -- the contrast between the silent exterior shots and the sudden noise and chaos whenever you switched to inside a ship. Ah, well.
As for British characters always being villains played by not-so-British actors... um... Giles? Anyone?
[BOLD]Again, bookworm, self-concious, awkward, sends others out to fight.[/BOLD]
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But one thing I wanted to pick up on -misogynistic characters in his work, where?
I think you missed my point, there. I wasn't talking about there being misogynistic characters. I was talking about the insinuation that behind every male face is the beating heart of a primitive woman-hater. See Billy (Season 3, Angel).
Tim Minear's point was that every man covers up this with convention and rationality, but that it's in all of us (men). Well, no it actually isn't. There are certainly misogynistic men out there, the same as there are woman who like nothing better than to emasculate men.
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Quote:
Originally posted by charmuse:
Just me personally, but my feeling is Joss loves women. He empowers them, and he believes in love. It is as simple as that.
Do women really need fiction to be empowered? I love women too. I empower them by the way I interact with them. If they have low self-esteem, I help them to see their strengths. That's the way I'm wired. It's not some noble thing I go out of my way to do. It's just there.
My point was: Can he or will he do anything else?
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Of course they do. They have a such a rare bit of power in real life. I understand your issue but in my estimation, men are so conditioned, as the wide world is, to see women as victims. Not strong, not in control, not smart, not capable. And for the most part the are subjugated. Pretty or ugly, that is the decider and the only condsideration in most men's brainpan, nothing more.
Joss answers that. Is he redundant? No, I don't think he is. The common thread is strong women and from my way of thinkin', they come in all stripes to him. Mechanic, cheerleader, child prodidgy and the like. He enjoys seeing women being smart, capable and fighters if the need to be.
No different then the myriad of action male stars on record. Joss chooses to champion women as opposed to the same ole Arnie feya. Good for him, I say.
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Quote:
Originally posted by charmuse:
Of course they do. They have a such a rare bit of power in real life. I understand your issue but in my estimation, men are so conditioned, as the wide world is, to see women as victims. Not strong, not in control, not smart, not capable. And for the most part the are subjugated. Pretty or ugly, that is the decider and the only condsideration in most men's brainpan, nothing more.
Joss answers that. Is he redundant? No, I don't think he is. The common thread is strong women and from my way of thinkin', they come in all stripes to him. Mechanic, cheerleader, child prodidgy and the like. He enjoys seeing women being smart, capable and fighters if the need to be.
No different then the myriad of action male stars on record. Joss chooses to champion women as opposed to the same ole Arnie feya. Good for him, I say.
I disagree. You're helping to perpetuate the belief that women are all victims. If you need fiction to help you believe that they're not, you can't have very affirming people in your life.
All stripes you say. What about all sizes? You ever see a fat or unattractive heroine in a JW series? Nope! They're all skinny and pretty. I realise that the networks probably wouldn't allow anything else, but has he ever even written one? Let's face it, the majority of US women are nothing like that. So, what's his writing giving them, huh? It's helping them to see themselves as unattractive and unwelcome. Isn't that misogyny of a sort?
Women aren't powerless in real life, that's a crock. I don't know about you, but I'm living in the 21st century. Women are as screwed up as men. They are strong in some areas, weak in others, and damaged in others. We all are.
Men and women are different. Feminism wants to make them the same. It can't be done. Feminism has done great harm to women. I'm not talking about the vote etc. I'm talking about making men and women totally confused about their roles. And their roles are quite different. Why do you think their is such a high divorce rate? It isn't because all men are inherently bastards, because they aren't. I've had some awful girlfriends, who were manipulative, envious and spiteful. I didn't hit them. One in particular I could've destroyed with a few sentences, because I knew all her insecurities etc. I chose not to push that button. We split up and it took my girlfriend of 3 years to sort out the damage that one woman had done.
You see my point? I was the victim when I could've been the opposite, but I chose not to be vengeful or cruel. That makes me "mighty." It wasn't fiction or TV that helped me, it was a real person, a relationship. And I helped her too. Because we cared about each other and wanted each other to be whole.
I don't know if you're male or female, but your name sounds female. If not, I apologise. Maybe you need to meet better people. I don't know you, so I can't really comment on your life, only give examples of mine.
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I think Joss would resent being called a pony. Obviously, he would rather be called a horse.
Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
The other thing that was disappointing and took away a lot of Firefly’s originality was the fact that space wasn’t silent anymore. I really like that about Firefly. I feel it gave it an edge and a loneliness.
GO BACK AND WATCH SERENITY AGAIN.
The silence is still there.
Near begining:
Serenity in space over planet.
No sound only music.
Serenity descends into atmo.
Atmo. Loud Noises.
Amto burns.
Serenity leaves planet. In atmo:
Mal and Zoe talking near Mal's cabin.
Serenity shaking, rattling, rumbling. See the
reflections of atmo burn on Mal's face.
Mal says "what do you think they'll do to us?"
Sounds stop. Shaking stops. Reflections of atmo burn are gone. Serenity has left atmo.
Slient in space.
Mal firing at Reaver ship in space.
No atmo burn.
No sound of explosions.
The sound is some sort of recoil noise inside Mal's suit. You can hear Mal grunt.
Big "space battle" is not in space.
See the ion cloud. See the Alliance ships. See outside the Alliance ship. See the lightning in the ion cloud. HEAR THE THUNDER. The ships are in Atmo.
There is no atmo burn. Hear the explosions. Hear everything. NO AMTO BURN. We are in atmo.
Quote:
With all JW’s talk about the future being about two superpowers: US and China (unlikely, I think); how come all the crew are American and Chinese people only seem to be in the background, selling from market stalls or walking by?
Serenity is not anywhere near Londinum.
Serenity is not anywhere near Sihnon.
Serenity soars between the Border planets.
Think America--old west. The Chinese were there too. But most of them were back in China or Sihnon.
The Border planets are the old west. The Border planets would just naturally attract Americans. If they weren't cowboys and cowgirls when they got to the Border planets...they soon will be.
Do you really think the Chinese are going to go to another solar system without taking their best customers with them?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Legolad:
Okay... silence in space: yeah, that was one of my favourite details about the show, and I was a little disappointed they cheated so much to make the movie 'louder.' I still say a silent space battle would be cool -- the contrast between the silent exterior shots and the sudden noise and chaos whenever you switched to inside a ship. Ah, well.
See my post above this one. The silence is there.
Otherwise you would see atmo burn as Serenity descends into the planet.
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I think that in JW's work the skinny teenaged girl is meant to represent the underdog in all of us. No doubt there's a feminist component, but I'd say it's less in-your-face than it is matter-of-fact: this guy doesn't mind using skinny teenaged girls as a stand-in for all of us. I teach teenaged girls, and I do think too many people still dismiss them as unimportant, exploit them, talk down to them, objectify them. I think they're a good choice to embody those who are undervalued and underestimated. And the dream of all of us who feel somewhat undervalued and underestimated ourselves that someday, we'll really show people what we can do.
Btw, the name Angus Thermopyle--you know, I love Stephen Donaldson. But that character must be one of the most screwed up people--and not least about male-female relationships--in all of science fiction. Not insinuating anything (or not insinuating much, b/c I really don't buy into your stuff about male/female "roles"--mostly, though, I'm just curious), but how does someone espousing the views you do choose such a user name?
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>I disagree. You're helping to perpetuate the belief that women >are all victims. If you need fiction to help you believe that >they're not, you can't have very affirming people in your life.
This is silly. I love Joss for his writing and worlds he creates. You made this a personal beef almost immeadiately. Why?
>All stripes you say. What about all sizes? You ever see a fat or >unattractive heroine in a JW series? Nope! They're all skinny >and pretty. I realise that the networks probably wouldn't allow >anything else, but has he ever even written one? Let's face it, >the majority of US women are nothing like that. So, what's his >writing giving them, huh? It's helping them to see themselves >as unattractive and unwelcome. Isn't that misogyny of a sort?
Well if you consider the fact that all the men on the show are babes. No fat ugly slobs among them.....
>Women aren't powerless in real life, that's a crock. I don't know >about you, but I'm living in the 21st century. Women are as >screwed up as men. They are strong in some areas, weak in >others, and damaged in others. We all are.
Maybe so, but opinion on damage should be decided by knowing a person, not by age, sex, color or race. So call that a draw.
>Men and women are different. Feminism wants to make them >the same. It can't be done. Feminism has done great harm to >women. I'm not talking about the vote etc. I'm talking about >making men and women totally confused about their roles. >And their roles are quite different. Why do you think their is >such a high divorce rate? It isn't because all men are inherently >bastards, because they aren't. I've had some awful girlfriends, >who were manipulative, envious and spiteful. I didn't hit them. >One in particular I could've destroyed with a few sentences, >because I knew all her insecurities etc. I chose not to push that >button. We split up and it took my girlfriend of 3 years to sort >out the damage that one woman had done.
Well, we all have had bad relationships, and as you strike me as young, you will have more. The question of manipulation is not gender based. It is how much you are willing to put up with for your own self worth..without hitting them of course. If you think women voting is still up for grabs, you truly are a caveman. If you think not hitting women (or anyone for that matter) is a big recent leap...I am sad.
>You see my point? I was the victim when I could've been the >opposite, but I chose not to be vengeful or cruel. That makes >me "mighty." It wasn't fiction or TV that helped me, it was a >real person, a relationship. And I helped her too. Because we >cared about each other and wanted each other to be whole.
I think the fact that you refer to yourself as "mighty" is insight enough for me.
>I don't know if you're male or female, but your name sounds >female. If not, I apologise. Maybe you need to meet better >people. I don't know you, so I can't really comment on your >life, only give examples of mine.
So you would apologize if I was male? Would you also use spell check? I guess I am beneath that, being female and all.
Yuck..yours truly..
HMB
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Quote:
Serenity is not anywhere near Londinum.
Serenity is not anywhere near Sihnon.
Serenity soars between the Border planets.
Think America--old west. The Chinese were there too. But most of them were back in China or Sihnon.
The Border planets are the old west. The Border planets would just naturally attract Americans. If they weren't cowboys and cowgirls when they got to the Border planets...they soon will be.
Do you really think the Chinese are going to go to another solar system without taking their best customers with them?
Actually, it's funny you should bring that up as the Chinese in the "old west" were cheap labour for the railways. Now they're passer's by.
www.ChAoS-ImAgErY.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by glitch:
I think that in JW's work the skinny teenaged girl is meant to represent the underdog in all of us. No doubt there's a feminist component, but I'd say it's less in-your-face than it is matter-of-fact: this guy doesn't mind using skinny teenaged girls as a stand-in for all of us. I teach teenaged girls, and I do think too many people still dismiss them as unimportant, exploit them, talk down to them, objectify them. I think they're a good choice to embody those who are undervalued and underestimated. And the dream of all of us who feel somewhat undervalued and underestimated ourselves that someday, we'll really show people what we can do.
Btw, the name Angus Thermopyle--you know, I love Stephen Donaldson. But that character must be one of the most screwed up people--and not least about male-female relationships--in all of science fiction. Not insinuating anything (or not insinuating much, b/c I really don't buy into your stuff about male/female "roles"--mostly, though, I'm just curious), but how does someone espousing the views you do choose such a user name?
Okay, firstly I don't bye your skinny teenage girls argument for a second. They are still objectified. They are what Hollywood wants. Bums on seats etc...
As to the handle. I love Stephen Donaldson, who is somewhat of a mentor to me. We have corresponded on a number of occasions. Superb writer. The reason I chose Thermopyle wasn't anything to do with his character. I wanted a sci-fi name that was not well known. Didn't want to be Muad'dib (also think Frank Herbert is a geneous); and I certainly didn't want to use a name from Firefly, Star Wars or Star Trek. I also think it's an interesting sounding name.
I certainly don't share his attitudes about relationships or women or probably anything else.
My views are real. I live them and I really don't mind if people don't share them or believe I that I really have them. I am me and I'm not trying to be anyone else. If I see something that makes me angry or uncomfortable, I say something.
That's all there is to it. No big mystery or anything.
www.ChAoS-ImAgErY.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by charmuse:
>I disagree. You're helping to perpetuate the belief that women >are all victims. If you need fiction to help you believe that >they're not, you can't have very affirming people in your life.
This is silly. I love Joss for his writing and worlds he creates. You made this a personal beef almost immeadiately. Why?
>All stripes you say. What about all sizes? You ever see a fat or >unattractive heroine in a JW series? Nope! They're all skinny >and pretty. I realise that the networks probably wouldn't allow >anything else, but has he ever even written one? Let's face it, >the majority of US women are nothing like that. So, what's his >writing giving them, huh? It's helping them to see themselves >as unattractive and unwelcome. Isn't that misogyny of a sort?
Well if you consider the fact that all the men on the show are babes. No fat ugly slobs among them.....
>Women aren't powerless in real life, that's a crock. I don't know >about you, but I'm living in the 21st century. Women are as >screwed up as men. They are strong in some areas, weak in >others, and damaged in others. We all are.
Maybe so, but opinion on damage should be decided by knowing a person, not by age, sex, color or race. So call that a draw.
[bold]I wasn't scoring, I was just making a few points, a discussion. That's all.[/bold]
Quote:
>Men and women are different. Feminism wants to make them >the same. It can't be done. Feminism has done great harm to >women. I'm not talking about the vote etc. I'm talking about >making men and women totally confused about their roles. >And their roles are quite different. Why do you think their is >such a high divorce rate? It isn't because all men are inherently >bastards, because they aren't. I've had some awful girlfriends, >who were manipulative, envious and spiteful. I didn't hit them. >One in particular I could've destroyed with a few sentences, >because I knew all her insecurities etc. I chose not to push that >button. We split up and it took my girlfriend of 3 years to sort >out the damage that one woman had done.
Well, we all have had bad relationships, and as you strike me as young, you will have more. The question of manipulation is not gender based. It is how much you are willing to put up with for your own self worth..without hitting them of course. If you think women voting is still up for grabs, you truly are a caveman. If you think not hitting women (or anyone for that matter) is a big recent leap...I am sad.
[bold]
Actually, I was 39 in January. But people do take for being in my 20's which is totally cool by me.
I was merely using the female vote issue as an example of a part of feminism I wasn't talking about and was completely for. I wanted to talk about the feminist's attitude to the gender continuum. How they want to make us all the same.[/bold]
Quote:[bold]
>You see my point? I was the victim when I could've been the >opposite, but I chose not to be vengeful or cruel. That makes >me "mighty." It wasn't fiction or TV that helped me, it was a >real person, a relationship. And I helped her too. Because we >cared about each other and wanted each other to be whole.
I think the fact that you refer to yourself as "mighty" is insight enough for me.
The use of the word mighty was ironic. It was a quote from ep 1 of Firefly. I don't think I'm great because I decided not to hit back.[/bold]
Quote:
>I don't know if you're male or female, but your name sounds >female. If not, I apologise. Maybe you need to meet better >people. I don't know you, so I can't really comment on your >life, only give examples of mine.
So you would apologize if I was male? Would you also use spell check? I guess I am beneath that, being female and all.
I'm English. That's what the language is called. Apologise is spelled like that in English English. I was apologising if I got your sex wrong. I was being polite. Are you always so sensitive? Sorry you misunderstood. I couldn't care less what sex you are. I just didn
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Sorry, had some tag issues and it duplicated the post, so I edited it to this...
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but my point still stands, apart from that one episode of Angel that you cite, where in Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Toystory even, is Joss Wheadons insinutation that all men are misogynistic?
Sadly I can't watch the episode you stated right now, but I assume that it involved a character with these opinions, spouting off about them, maybe somehow inducing one of the regular cast to follow suit? possibly? I don't know, but...
Joss Writes fiction, it's a way of expressing your own views, but it is also the only way to take someone elses view, maybe that you agree with, maybe that you think is completely wrong, and use it to create an interesting story through 'characters'. What one character believes has nothing to do with Joss. He, like all writers, simply gathers up bits of this thing we call humanity and throws them all out for us to take with what we will.
Take Mal for example, you'd think, being the lead of a show he's wanted to do forever, Mal would be a reflection of himself, pretty much no.
So before I believe you, give me example of how his main characters and 'worlds' insinuate "that behind every male face is the beating heart of a primitive woman-hater."
Because they really don't.
And for the fat issue, why oh why is this brought up time and time again? There is a huge difference between using super skinny supermodel types with boob jobs and permatans, and using real normal people. Every single one of his cast members is a healthy, normal sized and shaped person, hell, Jewel apparently put on weight to play Kaylee. In Firefly they live on the edge of space, they are active, underindulgent people - no-one is going to be fat, so why wedge one in for pc's sakes?
The only time I ever get at people for the fat issue is when their characters are fat and seen as nothing more than that - Hurley from Lost for example -(you want elaboration go find the ranting thread in Talk Story.) and Joss would never ever do that. (basically cause he has more imagination and interest in characters over stereotypes)
That said, objectification. Hell, this is television, unlike real life we only partake of it because we want to, and the sad fact of the matter is that for all our supposed nobless and cultural conditioning, you, me, that guy loading the small cannon in the corner, are barely one step away from bonobo chimps rubbing our asses together in the jungle. We watch things mainly because we are attracted to them, you could have the most perfect plot known to the universe, but if your characters repulsed people, no one (in terms of viewing figures) would ever watch it. So in that way everyone who ever gets even so much as a toe on screen is 'objectified'
Not just women, and by only seeing the objectification of women and ignoring the objectification of men and even cute little puppies, you are actually being kind of sexist and insulting.
Your here telling us that Joss's work is all about female empowerment, it objectifies, it only deals with teenages girls, and so called superwomen.
If that were the case, then the only people identifying and posting here would be teenage girls and the old 40 year old male with a new developed skill for typing one handed.
Instead here we are,people from a broad spectrum of different sexes, races and ages and social, political and cultural backgrounds.
So really, what does that say about the diverse appeal of Joss's work? If he were only a one-trick horse, no-one would still care enough to condradict you.
**********************************************************
Hodgins: Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
FozzieWash, You know what I always say: sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!
KermieMal, I never Know what the heck you're talking about.
FozzieWash, Hey, look! They're sending us free lumber!
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Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:
but my point still stands, that one episode of Angel that you cite, where in Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Toystory even is Joss Wheadons insinutation that all men are misogynistic?
Sadly I can't go right now and watch the episode you stated, but I assume that it involved a character with these opinions, spouting off about them, maybe somehow inducing one of the regular cast to follow suit? possibly? I don't know, but...
Joss Writes fiction, fiction is a way of expressing your own views, but it is also the only way to take someone elses view, maybe that you agree with, maybe that you think is completely wrong, and use it to create an interesting story through 'characters'. What one character believes has nothing to do with Joss. He, like all writers, simply gathers up bits of this thing we call humanity and throws them all out for us to take with what we will.
Take Mal for example, you'd think, being the lead of a show he's wanted to do forever, Mal would be a reflection of himself, pretty much no.
So before I believe you, give me example of how his main characters and 'worlds' insinuate "that behind every male face is the beating heart of a primitive woman-hater."
Because they really don't.
And for the fat issue, why oh why is this brought up time and time again? There is a huge difference between using super skinny supermodel types with boob jobs and perma tans, and using real normal people. Every single one of his cast members is a healthy, normal, sized and shaped person, hell, Jewel apparently put on weight to play Kaylee. They live on the edge of space, the are active, underindulgent people, no-one is going to be fat, so why wedge one in for pc's sakes?
The only time I ever get at people for the fat issue is when they are fat and seen as nothing more than that (you want elaboration go find the ranting thread in Talk Story.) and Joss would never ever do that. (basically cause he has more imagination and interest in characters over stereotypes)
That said, objectification. Hell, this is television, we only partake of it because we want to, and the sad fact of the matter is that for all our supposed nobless and cultural conditioning, you, me, that guy loading the small cannon in the corner, are barely one step away from bonobo chimps rubbing their asses together in the jungle. We watch things mainly because we are attracted to them, you could have the most perfect plot known to the universe, but if your characters repulsed people, no one (in terms of viewing figures) would ever watch it. So in that way everyone who ever gets even so much as a toe on screen is 'objectified'
Not just women, and by only seeing the objectification of women and ignoring the objectification of men and even cute little puppies, you are actually being rather sexist and insulting.
Your here telling us that Joss's work is all about female empowerment, it objectifies, it only deals with teenages girls, and so called superwomen.
If that were the case, then the only people posting here would be teenage girls and the old 40 year old male with a new developed skill for typing one handed.
Instead here we are,people from a broad spectrum of different sexes, races and ages and social, political and cultural backgrounds.
So really, what does that say about the diverse appeal of Joss's work? He, by no stretch of the imagination, is a one trick pony, (horse?) cause if he were, no-one would care enough to condradict you.
**********************************************************
Hodgins: Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
FozzieWash, You know what I always say: sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!
KermieMal, I never Know what the heck you're talking about.
FozzieWash, Hey, look! They're sending us free lumber!
It was the episode Biily. Billy was the guy who angel rescued from hell for Wolfram and Hart w
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That aint civilised rules. Too much politicaly correct thinking there. Joss did Buffy and then he did Angel. He doesnt care if its a man or a woman. Its what best fits the plot. Nowadays there is too much thought on 'am I able to do this? is it right to say that? should a woman or man be portrayed in this way?'. My attitude is as long as you are not offensive to another race or human being, say and do what you like and dont let the media and society brain wash you into 'being a better person'. You can be a better person by being yourself and believing in your own moral values.
I wouldnt say Badger is a baddie he's the same as Mal. Hes an opportunist who makes his living anyway he can. Coz im British I think he's cool :)
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Quote:
Originally posted by j6ngo1977:
That aint civilised rules. Too much politicaly correct thinking there. Joss did Buffy and then he did Angel. He doesnt care if its a man or a woman. Its what best fits the plot. Nowadays there is too much thought on 'am I able to do this? is it right to say that? should a woman or man be portrayed in this way?'. My attitude is as long as you are not offensive to another race or human being, say and do what you like and dont let the media and society brain wash you into 'being a better person'. You can be a better person by being yourself and believing in your own moral values.
I wouldnt say Badger is a baddie he's the same as Mal. Hes an opportunist who makes his living anyway he can. Coz im British I think he's cool :)
I'm British too mate.
Actually, both Buffy and Angel are politically correct. That was kind of my point.
And what you say about being able to write anything as long as it doesn't insult or offend being ok. We should all stop writing then?.
Those cartoons that got the Islamic world up in arms (almost literally), were first shown in an Egyptian newspaper months before they were in the Euro press. No one raised an eyebrow until they appeared in the west. So, you see. People do tend to decide when they are going to be offended too, not just by the subject matter.
Yes, in many ways Badger is very like Mal, but he's portrayed as bad and Mal honourable. They are both opportunists and let's face it Mal has probably killed more people to keep his lifestyle. He's portrayed as a bit of a Robin Hood character though. The Alliance being the Sheriff of Nottingham in a way. I guess Jayne would be Little John. Ok, enough of this. I'll end up saying that Inara is Maid Marian, if I'm not careful. Oh bugger!
www.ChAoS-ImAgErY.com
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'Kind of insulting' isn't extreme, I was referring to the way you seem to feel that women need someone to argue their case for them, to stand up and help them, which is actually kind of insulting, especially as it regards a show that all the women who have posted here agree doesn't really raise the need for this 'help'.
Yeah, you said 'is it' but isn't that just semantics? If you have an opinion, state it, be prepared to talk it over, thats what discussion boards are for, but (trying to remain impersonal) posing a question like 'is this guy you all are gathered here because you like and admire just basically a bit deficient?' then walking away saying 'bye bye, wasn't me honestly! You all just agrue to much, i'm going to leave you to it' isn't discussion, its almost blatent baiting.
And i'm not going to say that word, but it does come to mind.
Yes, ok, in that episode, misogynistic tendencies are inflated to a gross degree. But you're ignoring what I said about exploring alternative viewpoints in fiction.
Anywhere in the episode did it baldly state that deep down inside all men are woman hating pigs and they just need some guy called Billy to come along and show them? Who said that? How do we know that these were Joss's own opinions? We don't, it was possible he was simply exploring possibilities.
And quite frankly taking the subject of one episode in one season in one series, and applying it to everything he has ever produced is just a bit naff.
So, no, you're probably quite wrong.
'average''role-model' what do you mean by those words? Fat? geeky? old? normal? Or just simply not a 'pin-up'. Would you call any of the starlets in hollywood movies 'role models'?
All these terms are so debatable its not worth posting the list until we've tied down the definitions. But the characters that stick in my mind are the cootch dancers from Carnivale - full, viable characters regardless of their size and their professions.
My last (four) paragraphs didn't exclude the possiblity of crazed fans. I'm not talking about the end results, i'm talking about the initial attraction.
It takes a diverse range of factors to attract a diverse range of people, which is what this site has (proven - the what do you do in real life threads) and you can't be diverse and broad in your appeal if you are a 'one-trick' - its not possible.
So, to join in with the semantics - 'Is he...? No, he's not.
And I think that, seeing as you've already left the discussion, ends it (between you and I at least)
**********************************************************
Hodgins: Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
FozzieWash, You know what I always say: sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!
KermieMal, I never Know what the heck you're talking about.
FozzieWash, Hey, look! They're sending us free lumber!
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No I dont think people should be stopped from saying what they want but there has to be a line drawn. For example Hitler. He said and did what he wanted but it wasnt morally correct and again his thought process was brought about by social conditioning. 5 guys pilot an airplane into the two towers and because of social conditioning the rest of the western populace think Muslims are all bad. I agree with you on the cartoon thing.
The kind of people I find offensive are rude inconsiderate people. Sociapaths. Which tends to be the general public :) Which you are not Augus because you are bringing forward your opinion with a very good explanation. Previous forums Ive been on , mention no names but Urban75, if you make a comment, for example 'I like cheese' you will then immediately get a torrent of abuse saying how crap cheese is with no explanation .LOL
I'll go with the Robin Hood thing. Yeh Inara is Maid Marion :) Ive never really fancied Inara, Ive always been a Yo-Saf-Bridge kinda guy but at the end of Serenity when she has no make-up on and she smiles at Mal my heart melted :)
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Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:
'Kind of insulting' isn't extreme, I was referring to the way you seem to feel that women need someone to argue their case for them, to stand up and help them, which is actually kind of insulting, especially as it regards a show that all the women who have posted here agree doesn't really raise the need for this 'help'.
Yeah, you said 'is it' but isn't that just semantics? If you have an opinion, state it, be prepared to talk it over, thats what discussion boards are for, but (trying to remain impersonal) posing a question like 'is this guy you all are gathered here because you like and admire just basically a bit deficient?' then walking away saying 'bye bye, wasn't me honestly! You all just agrue to much, i'm going to leave you to it' isn't discussion, its almost blatent baiting.
And i'm not going to say that word, but it does come to mind.
Yes, ok, in that episode, misogynistic tendencies are inflated to a gross degree. But you're ignoring what I said about exploring alternative viewpoints in fiction.
Anywhere in the episode did it baldly state that deep down inside all men are woman hating pigs and they just need some guy called Billy to come along and show them? Who said that? How do we know that these were Joss's own opinions? We don't, it was possible he was simply exploring possibilities.
And quite frankly taking the subject of one episode in one season in one series, and applying it to everything he has ever produced is just a bit naff.
So, no, you're probably quite wrong.
'average''role-model' what do you mean by those words? Fat? geeky? old? normal? Or just simply not a 'pin-up'. Would you call any of the starlets in hollywood movies 'role models'?
All these terms are so debatable its not worth posting the list until we've tied down the definitions. But the characters that stick in my mind are the cootch dancers from Carnivale - full, viable characters regardless of their size and their professions.
My last (four) paragraphs didn't exclude the possiblity of crazed fans. I'm not talking about the end results, i'm talking about the initial attraction.
It takes a diverse range of factors to attract a diverse range of people, which is what this site has (proven - the what do you do in real life threads) and you can't be diverse and broad in your appeal if you are a 'one-trick' - its not possible.
So, to join in with the semantics - 'Is he...? No, he's not.
And I think that, seeing as you've already left the discussion, ends it (between you and I at least)
**********************************************************
Hodgins: Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
FozzieWash, You know what I always say: sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!
KermieMal, I never Know what the heck you're talking about.
FozzieWash, Hey, look! They're sending us free lumber!
I'm a bit confused. On the one-hand you say Joss Whedon is good because he speaks up for women and then get insulted when you think I'm doing the same thing. I never said that women needed a champion. I said I didn't like it when I'm told by a popular TV show that all men are misogynists. I did say I've spoken up for women. But not all women. These people I know and care about who actually needed it. And don't presume to tell me they didn't. They did.
I didn't say anything about people arguing too much and that I was walking away. I said I wanted to speak my peace and was interested in what other people had to say, and thanked them. If you'd care to re-read the last part again... I don't run from a fight, never have. Not if I believe in something. I've always stood for my principles and in many instances I've had to pay for it. But that's what having beliefs and principles is. You don't run away when things get a bit difficult.
I spoke about one episode and the issue it raised. I never said that the whole
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Quote:
Originally posted by j6ngo1977:
No I dont think people should be stopped from saying what they want but there has to be a line drawn. For example Hitler. He said and did what he wanted but it wasnt morally correct and again his thought process was brought about by social conditioning. 5 guys pilot an airplane into the two towers and because of social conditioning the rest of the western populace think Muslims are all bad. I agree with you on the cartoon thing.
The kind of people I find offensive are rude inconsiderate people. Sociapaths. Which tends to be the general public :) Which you are not Augus because you are bringing forward your opinion with a very good explanation. Previous forums Ive been on , mention no names but Urban75, if you make a comment, for example 'I like cheese' you will then immediately get a torrent of abuse saying how crap cheese is with no explanation .LOL
I'll go with the Robin Hood thing. Yeh Inara is Maid Marion :) Ive never really fancied Inara, Ive always been a Yo-Saf-Bridge kinda guy but at the end of Serenity when she has no make-up on and she smiles at Mal my heart melted :)
Who's going to draw the line, J? You, me, some Immam in Iran? The US President? Blair? How can anyone have that kind of power and not be Hitler?
mate, I don't think many sociopaths come online to discuss Joss Whedon. They're donw the pub putting a pint glass in someone's face then shagging up and alleyway against a wall.
Oh I think Inara is totally gorgeous and possibly one of the most beautiful women I've ever seen. She could play any of the great beauties from history: Helen of Troy, Sheba (As in Solomon and...). And what a smile. She looked better in the series I thought.
Actually, did anyone notice how a lot of the crew looked kind of different? It wasn't just lighting either. Inara, Kaylee, Book and Mal.
Sorry, Yo-Saf-Bridge?
www.ChAoS-ImAgErY.com
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by the way, check this out: 
That model took me 2 months and about 50 hours to create. And I was a beginner of 3D CGI when I started. Kinda proud of it. Some areas aren't as I'd have liked. When I can afford a new PC I'll start it again. Was a lot of fun though.
www.ChAoS-ImAgErY.com
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Oops, that's an earlier version, before I did the cargo hold and connected the neck and did the shuttles lol. Let me see here: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=1115278&Start=1&Artist=
flinch67&ByArtist=Yes
www.ChAoS-ImAgErY.com
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Quote:
I'll go with the Robin Hood thing. Yeh Inara is Maid Marion :) Ive never really fancied Inara, Ive always been a Yo-Saf-Bridge kinda guy but at the end of Serenity when she has no make-up on and she smiles at Mal my heart melted :)
Oh, you like Mrs. Reynolds, eh? I had to look her up lol. Thanks for your comments, by the way. Maybe it's a British thing...
www.ChAoS-ImAgErY.com
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No, I read everything you said, and unless teres been a new language invented, understood it all.
No, tell a lie I missed "Actually, it's more than insinuated, it's stated quite clearly."
questioning the fact in my own post, but... ah well, its hard to read when you're giggling.
oh, the word was 'Troll' not one I like to bandy about, cause most of the time its not applicable, its just jumping to insults.
Hmmmmm...
Quote:
I spoke about one episode and the issue it raised. I never said that the whole season was the same. You really should stop and take a closer look before you barge in with criticisms. How much of my post did you read before you wrote your reply? Ask yourself. I don't need to know the answer.
back up a bit -
Quote:
There seems to be this whole feminist, all men are misogynistic bastards thread running through everything he does
oh dear.
Quote:
Well, just thought I’d waste some of my day critiquing a few areas of Joss Whedon’s work. And I’m sure that there are going to be some rancorous replies to this one. Well, it’s all just a bit of fun, and it’s just TV, right? We’ll see, I guess…
Cat, pigeons, go get amongst 'em…
Skip to the end...
Quote:
I didn't post looking to win an argument, or even start one
Consistency, it lends an argument validity and backbone.
As for my own questioned consistency, I never said I admire JW because he stands up for women. I said I admire him because he creates good whole characters regarless of their gender and race. His treatment of women is equality, not 'hey, look how great women are, how sexy do they look swinging the big axes around'
His aim with Buffy, its been said, but it can be said again, was exploring the 'damsel' fighting back, yup, female empowerment, but that wasn't the be all and end all of Buffy, he was exploring duty and fate, and the rejection there of, what it means to have power...
In fact if anything, JW trick is the theme of 'created family'
but anyway, River was looking at a damaged human, what happens when you are treated that badly, how do you recover from that? And i'm absolutely certain that, if there was a man with Summers poise, grace, althletic ability, fragility and unique energy willing to play River, casting decisions would have been difficult.
If anything, River is almost sexless, she's not a sexual object, she's not an attraction for the crew, at the moment she is simply 'River' - she even has a unisex name.
As for taking things personal, no, if I took it personal, I wouldn't be laughing at this.
"until I got to the Billy episode. It really wound me up"
are you sure you can say the same?
Plus, I never said I was insulted, I said it was kinda insulting. maybe I should have clarified it with 'it could be found...'
My families just arrived, we're off to the park, I pick this up later.
**********************************************************
Hodgins: Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
FozzieWash, You know what I always say: sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!
KermieMal, I never Know what the heck you're talking about.
FozzieWash, Hey, look! They're sending us free lumber!
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Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
There seems to be this whole feminist, all men are misogynistic bastards thread running through everything he does. Speak for yourself, mate. I have never hit a woman nor even wished to. I’m also no feminist. I like women and I respect them. I understand that men and women are different and that men and women have different strengths and weaknesses. That’s why we need each other. I’m currently watching Angel season 3 again and I’d been thinking about writing this for some time, and thought I wouldn’t bother, until I got to the Billy episode. It really wound me up.
I think you're ignoring the fact that half the main cast of Buffy, almost the entire cast of Angel and the majority of firefly/serenity are in fact men. Though a little morally dubious, they're almost all heroes and champions. Working well with women. I don't know how you can say he's saying all men are mysoginists when I can only think of a few of his bad guys who are.
-------------------------------------------------
Read my fanfic!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=8267
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Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
Who's going to draw the line, J? You, me, some Immam in Iran? The US President? Blair? How can anyone have that kind of power and not be Hitler?
The only person who can decide what is "offensive" to me is -- uh -- me.
And when I find something personally offensive, I avoid it. While I personally believe that people should write what they like ("offensive" or not), I also believe that everyone has the right to disagree with and avoid what they find to be "offensive" -- without either expecting everyone else to agree with them that it's "offensive", or jump all over their face because they disagree with them.
Personally, (regarding this thread), I think a lot of your analysis about Joss makes sense. I'm not sure if I agree with all of it (particularly as I'm unacquainted with his other works -- and have no interest in acquainting myself with them), but you've hit upon some very interesting points.
I also think you are right on the mark about feminism trying to blur the distinctions between men and women. Men and women have many similarities, but they also have many ways in which they are quite different. I see no problem with recognizing the similarities. I do, however, get somewhat miffed when people deny the differences, and say that one gender is the same as the other, just in a different body.
Oh, and regarding the "English" language -- I totally agree with you (and I say that as an American). If someone is going to pilfer -- uh "borrow" someone else's tongue, they shouldn't go about changing it. However, for the sake of conformity with my fellow Americans (and for the fact that I was raised to spell in this aberant, Yankified manner), I generally do not adhere to my own belief that one doesn't corrupt a language that has not originated with one's own people.
Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
mate, I don't think many sociopaths come online to discuss Joss Whedon...
You haven't been in here long, have you?
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Quote:
Originally posted by GORRAMREEVER:
My husband and I (and all our friends who are fans of buffy and Whedon) agree that Joss should have been born a lesbian.
Almost all straight men would be perfectly fine being lesbians. On the other hand that assessment comes from discussions with upper and middle class teenage boys mostly from America Spain, the Dominican Republic, and England. Hardly a random sample, and certainly not "men" in the strictest sense.
Also I'm not really fit to judge River is the character on Firefly that I feel closest to (except for the ass-kicking bit, but that's not really her, just something that was done to her.)
Still it's said that just as many girls go through a tomboy phase most boys, when they are very, very young have a phase where they want to be female, and no one can deny the straight male fascination with lesbians.
(Why do you think the "tomboy phase" of girls happens later in life than the want-to-be-female phase of boys? And why do you think that boys actually want to be female in their phase, where girls just emulate males? For that matter why are there phases at all? Why does anyone who is not transgendered ever feel the need to be like members of the opposite sex? Perhaps I should take a course in psychology.)
-
I've said too much about my thoughts on the matter, someone will soon be by to kill me with rocks. Still, it seems that it is largely artificial constructs that stop straight guys from liking lesbians yet it is actual revulsion that drives them from gay men. (Human beings are fucked up in far too many ways.)
I'm just begging to be killed with rocks, aren’t I. I'll shut up now.
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Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
I generally do not adhere to my own belief that one doesn't corrupt a language that has not originated with one's own people.
Have you ever been to France, or Spain for that matter?
Who are they do destroy Latin? If no one corrupted a language that did not originate with them none of the languages that we know and love, or know and hate, would exist today.
English itself comes only from collecting and corrupting several languages. We certainly did not originate Latin yet we've happily corrupted it both directly and through French. Just look at the roots of, "demand," that is not only stolen but corrupted beyond all meaning.
On the other hand possible is not far from it's roots in Latin.
Language is the art of taking other peoples words and adapting them to your own region and culture, to attempt to assign origins is not appropriate because few if any languages are in the hands of their originators.
American English is American English, it was originated in America and has just as much birthright of corruption as Parisian French, more actually since Americans in large part are actually directly descended from the originators (though perhaps "collectors" would be a better word) where the Parisians are simply descended from corrupters.
If you want and language corrupted only by it's originators try Elvish or Klingon. You will not find one that people actually use in the real world. Or at the very least not one that is spoken as a first language. Besides, are you honestly claiming that the English have no right to the word "robotics" they didn't make it after all.
And what about the word Aluminium? My British dictionary (I only have one as it seems more useful to buy local dictionaries that use the local language) defines the word as "A modification of the word ALUMINUM the name given by it's discoverer." are you telling me that the person who invented the word has no right to the word? You call American English an aberration does that mean that the fact that it uses the word as it's originator intended is also and aberration and the corruption of that word by those who didn't create it is not an aberration?
There are of course other examples like this, but Aluminium is one often pointed to as a difference between American and British English, though most claim that to use it as its creator intended is an aberration.
But I hardly think that logical, and because you defined the originators as those with the right to the word I doubt you think it logical either.
But where are we then? Are we left with the idea that American English is mostly aberration though in some cases closer to correct than British English (I know I started off saying English English but I don't have a dictionary that is limited only to English as spoken in England, I've just got my British one.)
Is British English partially an aberration. Where is the line drawn? Is there no place on earth that speaks an English that is not an aberration? After all by your standards no one but the originators have the right to change it, yet non-originators have already changed the language as spoken in the land of originators.
-
In my mind all languages are aberrations (I still want to know the answers to my question in your mind though) and these things should be celebrated, there are things that you simply can not say in English, and there are things in English that you can not say outside of it. Were it not for aberration on top of aberration we would not be able to say these things at all.
American English is evolving to meet the experiences that need to be communicated by Americans, and to stop it would be to stifle and disrespect English as a whole. At the same time the English on the islands across the pond evolved to meet the needs of its own people.
The dialects spoken in England violate the English language in ways that would make my copy of The Oxford English Dictionary (a source that I feel confident turning to for all
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AngusThermopyle
Great post, I must admit. I agree to your several points to varying degrees. Joss DOES seem to play the often mentally traumatized, ass-kicking teenage girl card a few too many times. There's Buffy. Though not overly traumatized any more than most hot teenage girls, she does bear the burden of being a slayer. Then there's Faith ( Buffy and Angel ) Then there's Dana, and Bethany(Season 2) from Angel. Throw in Fred for good measure too. And of course there's River. The template Joss uses is a bit over played. Young, gifted girl has been taken away and had bad things done to her by bad people, and then is freed or escapes. Often to cause havok. Heck even Cordy fits that M.O., if you take into account her little trip to Pylea.
But hey, Joss must be doing something right to have us so well versed in these shows in the first place. How normal is it that so many of us can cite characters names and even episode titles from more than one series? If Joss has a sin, then it's a minor one of repitition. He's found something and has stuck w/ it. And we've kept watching.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
[I'm English. That's what the language is called. Apologise is spelled like that in English English.?
Angus, my apology for being insensitive to language differences across the pond. It had not occured to me.
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Ok Seryn, I'm gonna concede. I really can't be bothered. I can't believe you've gone through everything I've written on this very long thread just to find some inconsistencies. Of course I'm inconsistent. I'm human. We all are. I'm not going to go through all your posts and argue each point and point out all your inconsistencies. Life's too short! I made a point, you disagree. That's fine.
I certainly can say nothing personal. I can't see you laughing. When I pictured you, you had a sad face. That post must've taken ages to do. It's just not worth it. I still believe in most of what I said. Some things people have said have given me pause for thought.
Thanks for participating. Hope you had fun at the park.
www.ChAoS-ImAgErY.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
Who's going to draw the line, J? You, me, some Immam in Iran? The US President? Blair? How can anyone have that kind of power and not be Hitler?
The only person who can decide what is "offensive" to me is -- uh -- me.
While I personally believe that people should write what they like ("offensive" or not), I also believe that everyone has the right to disagree with and avoid what they find to be "offensive" -- without either expecting everyone else to agree with them that it's "offensive", or jump all over their face because they disagree with them.
Personally, (regarding this thread), I think a lot of your analysis about Joss makes sense. I'm not sure if I agree with all of it (particularly as I'm unacquainted with his other works -- and have no interest in acquainting myself with them), but you've hit upon some very interesting points.
I also think you are right on the mark about feminism trying to blur the distinctions between men and women. Men and women have many similarities, but they also have many ways in which they are quite different. I see no problem with recognizing the similarities. I do, however, get somewhat miffed when people deny the differences, and say that one gender is the same as the other, just in a different body.
Oh, and regarding the "English" language -- I totally agree with you (and I say that as an American). If someone is going to pilfer -- uh "borrow" someone else's tongue, they shouldn't go about changing it. However, for the sake of conformity with my fellow Americans (and for the fact that I was raised to spell in this aberant, Yankified manner), I generally do not adhere to my own belief that one doesn't corrupt a language that has not originated with one's own people.Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
mate, I don't think many sociopaths come online to discuss Joss Whedon...
You haven't been in here long, have you?
You got that right!
It's like the gorram reavers just landed...Thanks for your comments. I appreciate them.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The template Joss uses is a bit over played. Young, gifted girl has been taken away and had bad things done to her by bad people, and then is freed or escapes.
The world is made of variations on a theme, this I believe.
When you strip away all details everything is the same. The story of Alexander the Great is the same as that of Searching for Bobby Fisher.
What makes us keep watching these teenage girls is that the shows are not about them (Buffy would never be so loved with the rest of the characters) and certainly not about kicking ass.
Also there is no possible way to confuse them, River is not Buffy and will never be at all like her, Faith is not like either of them, and of all of the potential slayers you actually got to know (as opposed to background characters) in the end of Buffy none were interchangeable.
It is a template yes, but no more overused than the "standard American of indistinguishable but certainly Caucasian descent speaking in an accent that can not be placed beyond 'America' of positively normal physical strength and intelligence" template so often used.
As long as he concentrates on the characters they could all be played by the same person and we would not tire of them (though we might get very, very confused) because they would be both different and real.
The only problem with a template is when it becomes the character, instead of a starting point from which to build the character.
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its raining gorramit! bah!
nah, took me about two minutes.
well, longer, I was looking for a new mobile on ebay and chatting to my uncle as well.
But I think what I was trying to say is contradicting yourself doesn't lend your argument any wieght.
But yeah, one think I do agree with, this is getting really boring now, so...
**********************************************************
Hodgins: Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
FozzieWash, You know what I always say: sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!
KermieMal, I never Know what the heck you're talking about.
FozzieWash, Hey, look! They're sending us free lumber!
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
AngusThermopyle
Great post, I must admit. I agree to your several points to varying degrees. Joss DOES seem to play the often mentally traumatized, ass-kicking teenage girl card a few too many times. There's Buffy. Though not overly traumatized any more than most hot teenage girls, she does bear the burden of being a slayer. Then there's Faith ( Buffy and Angel ) Then there's Dana, and Bethany(Season 2) from Angel. Throw in Fred for good measure too. And of course there's River. The template Joss uses is a bit over played. Young, gifted girl has been taken away and had bad things done to her by bad people, and then is freed or escapes. Often to cause havok. Heck even Cordy fits that M.O., if you take into account her little trip to Pylea.
But hey, Joss must be doing something right to have us so well versed in these shows in the first place. How normal is it that so many of us can cite characters names and even episode titles from more than one series? If Joss has a sin, then it's a minor one of repitition. He's found something and has stuck w/ it. And we've kept watching.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
I couldn't agree more, AU. I certainly never said I didn't enjoy JW's stuff. On the other hand, I don't think I'd go and bye another JW series I hadn't already seen like I did with Firefly, which I think was a very worthwhile purchase.
Nice citing, by the way.
Well, things to do et cetera. Thanks for posting.
www.ChAoS-ImAgErY.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by charmuse:Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
[I'm English. That's what the language is called. Apologise is spelled like that in English English.?
Angus, my apology for being insensitive to language differences across the pond. It had not occured to me.
Not necessary, but accepted. Thank you.
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Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:
nah, took me about two minutes.
well, longer, I was looking for a new mobile on ebay and chatting to my uncle as well.
But I think what I was trying to say is contradicting yourself doesn't lend your argument any wieght.
But yeah, one think I do agree with, this is getting really boring now, so goodbye.
**********************************************************
Hodgins: Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
FozzieWash, You know what I always say: sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!
KermieMal, I never Know what the heck you're talking about.
FozzieWash, Hey, look! They're sending us free lumber!
If you go through every person's writings and musings on this thread you will find contradictions. We start off in one place, then we change as we see other POVs, or we just express ourselves poorly and don't say exactly what we felt or meant. No one is totally consistent, so therefore - by your reckoning - everyone's arguments lose weight. It's catch 22.
www.ChAoS-ImAgErY.com
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ANGUSTHERMOPYLE, So do you now understand that the silence in space is there in Serenity just as it is in Firefly.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous1:
ANGUSTHERMOPYLE, So do you now understand that the silence in space is there in Serenity just as it is in Firefly.
I mean externally. I know that as Serenity breaks atmo the sound of the engines dies away inside the ship; but that's not what I meant. I was talking about external shots of the ship or other ships have no sound apart from music - Space being a vacuum and therefore not be able to carry sound etc. Watch any FF episode where Serenity accelerates off. No sound, just music. Or when the ship glides past the camera, no engine sound. In Serenity, when the ship is breaking atmo near the beginning, you hear the thrusters in external shot. That wouldn't have happened in FF. It made for a dramatic SFX shot, but was inconsistent with the TV series.
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On Silence in space in Serenity and Firefly:
Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
I mean externally. ... I was talking about external shots of the ship or other ships have no sound apart from music
So was I. Internally and externally. Space is silent in Serenity and Firefly. Watch the external shots again.
Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
In Serenity, when the ship is breaking atmo near the beginning, you hear the thrusters in external shot. That wouldn't have happened in FF. It made for a dramatic SFX shot, but was inconsistent with the TV series.
Watch this scene again.
Serenity in space. No sound. Only music. Ain't she beautiful?
Thrusters start to turn down. No sound. Front and bottom of Serenity start to glow. ATMO BURN. ATMO FRICTION. THERE MUST BE AIR FOR THAT. THEN THERE MUST BE SOUND externally and internally if you ship is not insulated enough. Note that you cannot hear the lightening inside the Alliance cruiser, but you can hear it outside.
You hear the ATMO BURN before the thrusters even fire up.
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The only person who can decide what is "offensive" to me is -- uh -- me.
And when I find something personally offensive, I avoid it. That's exactly my point. I can talk with a person and they can voice their opinion that 'Mrs Reynolds' is a better episode than 'Out of Gas'. I wont deny their opinion because they see it that way. I don't find it offensive. It is just a point of view different from mine and I wont say they are wrong. However if that same person where to say to me 'all muslims are terrorists' (by the way I am not Muslim in fact I have no religous beliefs at all), that person has stepped over a line and I will tell them they are wrong in what they are saying because for a start it is factualy incorrect and all a comment like that does is feed hatred. Never say a person is wrong or deny their opinions until you know they are wrong or moraly incorrect.
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A few good points, but it seems to me you're generalizing off the basis of a few episodes. Judge as a whole. River is definitely not the another cliche version of Buffy. Like others said, he's been building her up since the series. Even the small intricate things like "They come in two, with hands of blue" or whatever it is she quotes -- if anyone notices, them be the people that're chasing after River and nearly catch her in Ariel. Nearly EVERYTHING River says is relevant to something in the series.
I think after every series he creates, he spots his errors and works on them. Buffy we had Druscilla, with her bizarre rantings which he gave in similiarity to River, although her rants actually have merit behind them; most are glimpses to what's about to happen, or has happened.
I don't think he's a one trick pony. Anyway I'd type more but I'm sick as a dog and going to bed. :)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tankin:
A few good points, but it seems to me you're generalizing off the basis of a few episodes. Judge as a whole. River is definitely not the another cliche version of Buffy. Like others said, he's been building her up since the series. Even the small intricate things like "They come in two, with hands of blue" or whatever it is she quotes -- if anyone notices, them be the people that're chasing after River and nearly catch her in Ariel. Nearly EVERYTHING River says is relevant to something in the series.
I think after every series he creates, he spots his errors and works on them. Buffy we had Druscilla, with her bizarre rantings which he gave in similiarity to River, although her rants actually have merit behind them; most are glimpses to what's about to happen, or has happened.
I don't think he's a one trick pony. Anyway I'd type more but I'm sick as a dog and going to bed. :)
Well, of course I was generalising to a certain extent, but I was generalising over the body of work, no a couple of episodes or one series. I was talking more about the teenage martial arts expert that seems to be in everything JW does. I find the fight scenes the least interesing parts of any of his series.
I think JW's real talent lies in dialogue and humour. He has a rare (for an American. Sorry guys, but it's true.) sense of irony and his own style. I think this is especially so in Angel and Firefly (not so much in Serenity imho). I noticed that shiny as an adjective in series 3 of Angel. I'm not sure if that was the same time as he was working on FF and I never saw it on TV. I bought it on DVD without seeing any of it first except a trailer on a Buffy DVD.
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