Why Wash is 100% alive and mostly well.
POSTED BY: pastorbadger
UPDATED: Thursday, November 22, 2007 09:57
VIEWED: 83772
PAGE 1 of 3
A post about Alan’s three-picture contract finally drew me off my lurk. I know Wash is alive, and only Joss, River and I know how. I finally decided to share:
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This is a show incredibly rich in subtext and full of detail. It's in these details where you'll find the answer to Wash's demise. Short answer: he's alive, and we'll see him in the next movie.
Let me recount the events that led to this inescapable conclusion.
Detail #1: Wash's final moments.
We all remember Mal dragging the reavers on his tail right into the lap of the fuzzy little surprise party the alliance had waiting for him. We all remember the furball which ensued.
But do you remember, precisely, who was hot on Serenity's tail as she broke for the planet? Sure, our favorite Alliance true-believer followed later in an escape pod. But what ships chased her down? Answers? Anybody? Yes, River: "EVERYONE!"
That's right. An Alliance gunboat tagged them with an EMP weapon, but both flavors of Hell chased them right to ground.
Detail #2: Wash's injury.
That's right. Injury. We all know the contemporary stories of medical miracles. A guy gets a pipe thrust through his skull, and the only consequence is he starts acting a little...well...a little more like Wash. Medical history is rife with accounts of the mighty being brought down by a nick, and the spindly surviving all manner of brutal harm. (The latter being the case I’m trying to highlight right here. Sorry Wash.)
Heck, Wash just catches a pike through the sternum. Not even through the heart. Under normal circumstances, and given the advances in medical technology, my bet is that they don't even make Simon hurry for that one.
Of course, these aren't normal circumstances. With two groups in hot pursuit (the friendlier of the two only wanting to kill you) there's a paucity of time for caring for the wounded, band-aid or no.
Detail #3: The arrival of the good guys, and then the bad guys, and then the worse guys.
This is the defining moment. Let’s examine the guest book at Mr. Universe’s little B&B, shall we?
The Alliance bad guys have been and gone already. We’ll pick up the story as our stalwart band checks in, minus one, soon to be minus two. Skip forward to give our heroes time to entrench themselves and read some typically heroic dialog. Seems like they have quite a bit of time to do this but then, Wash didn’t land so much like a leaf on the wind as he did like a maple seed in a cyclone. It’s going to take our bad guys a moment to catch up.
Who arrives first? Why, it’s the bogeymen. In fact, even though it was an Alliance ship which drove Serenity to ground, and which was in closest pursuit, and who was the most specifically motivated to chase Serenity in particular, (Alliance “to do” list for today: #1 Get the Tams. #2 Don’t get ‘et by reavers. #3 Kill reavers. #4 Did I leave the stove on at home?) , even given all that, the reavers spend a good half-hour getting killed by our little chocolate River before the noble Alliance shows it’s face. Yes? A hand in the back? Jubile: “That seem right to you?” Why no, it doesn’t. The Feds were busy during that half-hour. But wait, we’re not there yet.
Detail #4: Wash’s most recent party.
At the funeral, we’re all respectful. Wash would have been touched (in fact, he will be): Zoe wore something slinky. And in white, the traditional funereal color in most Asian cultures. We light rockets, carrying our messages to Heaven. Sure, closed-casket. Cairns, in fact. Wait? Cairns? Those are typically markers, sans corpus! That’s not how we’ve seen folk buried in the Firefly ‘verse previously! Why? Did they not have a body? Hmmm. More about that in the summation.
The Summation:
We watch a play, and we’re supposed to ignore what we see going on in the wings. We just know that when the curtain goes down, the dead get up and walk off. When we see someone get killed in the movies, we presume that a coroner or EMT will be along to collect the carcass.
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I would love to believe that. :)
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Yea...I don't think so. I would think if the crew got back to Serenity and Wash's body was gone, it would've made the go "hmm" and they maybe would've held off on the funeral.
And from what I've seen from the series and the movie, medicine has not come to the point of bringing people back from the dead, and even if Wash didn't die instantly, everyone was far too distracted to get him the first aid neccessary to stop him from dying.
I want to believe he's alive, but I just don't see it happening. The only way he's coming back is flashbacks.
"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."
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Quote:
Originally posted by pastorbadger:
There it is folks. Wash is 100% alive and mostly well. He’s waking up right now in the security wing of a core planet hospital. By now the Fed’s have figured out who he is, and they’re not happy.
Someone needs to rescue him. Now, who could ever take that job on? Hmmm. How about: “Serenity II: The search for the goose juggler.”
You know, as many "Wash is alive" threads as I've read, this is the first one that I've found even remotely plausible. But better than that, this is actually pretty compelling! I like the idea quiet a bit actually. It is maybe just a touch cliched ("What? He's back from the dead??"), but that's a small matter to get our pilot back. Only one addendum: they're probably not questioning him about where the Tams went so much as they are to figure out if River spilled the beans.
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I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.
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Ok guys,
2 reavers walk into a restaurant,(owned by a reaver) "What's on the menu?"
Chef replies "Wash"
cut to Serenity: reaver takes a bite out of Wash, pinned to the pilot seat, looks up and replies " Tastes like chicken "....drum roll
sorry guys couldn't resist
Pastorbadger, glad that you quit your lurking and jumped in. Really cool post btw. I'm sure someone is looking through the storage ben for a brown jacket for you. Welcome and enjoy the forum.
Z
PS: National Enquirer, Wash is spotted talking to Elvis,Hey it could happen!!
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For some odd reason I am now imagining a really bad, late night "B" movie entitled "They Saved Wash's Brain"
MRS
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THANK YOU SO GORRAM MUCH! this is what i was thinking. all of it, but you put it into words. it's logical, makes sense, and everything.
and those "graves"? they're memorials, i'm almost sure. They didn't bring Book's body with them to Mr. Universe's planet did they? i'm pretty sure they didn'tand wouldn't. and he has a "grave marker" too. The crew didn't find a body so therefore they thought the reavers that had been running rampant ate him and everything. They would probably look some, but if they didn't find him they would assume. and zoe would want wash to have at least a memorial service, even if they couldn't find a body. this is all great and true.
evildinosaur, they probably would have held off on the funeral, like you said. they probably did and looked for the body, like i said, but eventually they would just have to accept the fact, or what they thought was the fact at least.
Quote:
written by evildinosaur
And from what I've seen from the series and the movie, medicine has not come to the point of bringing people back from the dead, and even if Wash didn't die instantly, everyone was far too distracted to get him the first aid neccessary to stop him from dying.
The feds would have had time to get someone who could give them further info on the tams. And i'm sure they would have had doctors on call on the ship that were apart from the soldiers, because after all, it was a dangerous mission they were on. see, they did have the time, because there were so many of them that they had some people to spare.
and Wash's injury, apart from it going all the way through him, wasn't very serious, it didn't go through the heart and wasn't really really big, he could have and was saved. i know it!
keep flyin'
EngineAngel
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I have a question about something. I thought that the ship chasing Serenity on Mr. Universe's planet was a Reaver ship. I figured since it had an EMP that it would be Reavers, wanting to disable to ship so they can dock and eat everyone instead of blowing the ship appart.
I do like the theory that Wash could be alive though. I have a feeling that either Book or Wash many be brought back but we won't know until we see more. Joss is hard to predict but he usually doesn't keep likeable characters dead for long. But who knows, maybe another one of the movies will be a prequel, or part prequel and part sequel. Only one man knows.
IS
The Bible's a bit fuzzy on the subject of kneecaps.
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Quote:
Originally posted by EvilDinosaur:
Yea...I don't think so. I would think if the crew got back to Serenity and Wash's body was gone, it would've made the go "hmm" and they maybe would've held off on the funeral.
And from what I've seen from the series and the movie, medicine has not come to the point of bringing people back from the dead, and even if Wash didn't die instantly, everyone was far too distracted to get him the first aid neccessary to stop him from dying.
I want to believe he's alive, but I just don't see it happening. The only way he's coming back is flashbacks.
"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."
Oh, there was certainly no end of frustration when there wasn't enough to bury, but you know what reavers do with leftovers: they figure he's staked out on the stern of the more fashionable of your reaver ships.
They even check with the Alliance, just in case. But he's a John Doe. The pair that rescued him haven't filed their report, or weren't thorough enough to mention that six live bodies went onto Serenity’s wreckage, and three live bodies and eight dead ones (countin’ reavers) came off. Fed’s aren’t big on the math, you know.
And you have a hard time believing Wash survived that scratch? You want to talk to any state trooper who culled our highway’s harvest in the sixties. Before auto makers decided to stop installing spears pointed at the driver’s chest, a.k.a. non-collapsible steering columns, plenty of folks spent hours alive in just that position.
I ain’t sayin’ it twern’t a miracle. I ain’t sayin’ Wash enjoyed the ride. I’m just sayin’ that given the details, it getting powerful close to likely, let alone possible.
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Quote:
Originally posted by IsaacShepherd:
I have a question about something. I thought that the ship chasing Serenity on Mr. Universe's planet was a Reaver ship. I figured since it had an EMP that it would be Reavers, wanting to disable to ship so they can dock and eat everyone instead of blowing the ship appart.
Go back and still frame on it. Still has blue chalk on the tires. All nice and shiny like they just took it out of the wrapper.
'Sides, reavers seem to prefer harpoons. Don't have to be sane to maintain 'em, no delicate electronics and all.
EMP reminds me more of the sonic stun guns the Alliance carried. Overthought, but effective.
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Pastorbadger,
Your argument is extremely convincing. I hope that you're right, because that'd just be AWESOME!
Wacky fun!
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Urg, now we have Serenity 2: In Search of Wash. That's the last thing i'd wish on anyone. Unless, they tie it in with finding out Books past, cause therre's no way he's coming back.
No, I am not insane, I am crazy. Thank you for asking.
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"The Scene"
Serenitys ramp lowers. Bright light shows the outline of a male figure standing there waiting to board the ship,all hazy looking like Riveres dreams sequences.
Figure starts up the ramp. "Wash....Wash is that you?" Mal asks while other crew members stand about. The figure comes into focus, stands before Mal and salutes. "Bill Paxton. Ready to pilot the ship sir."
What do ya think?
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Not convinced, sorry.
I went back and watched the scene in slow motion, pausing as the camera looks down on the big ol' stake going through him. The stake, though it might not have directly hit his heart, was definitely big enough to have collapsed both of his lungs. A person can live without air for 2 minutes. That's cutting it awful close for the Reavers to come in, decide on a snack (but oh, not one that takes any vital organs or anything), and then for the Alliance to come in and somehow decide Wash is not dead when even his Captain and his own wife had already decided he was dead.
Also, Joss is not fond of cliches, and having a person seem to die only to be saved at the last minute seems awfully cliche and un-Joss. Sure, people in Whedonverse come back to life, but they were never not dead. They were 100% dead and only the Powers that Be or magic brought them back (thinking of Angel and Buffy in particular here). And since we don't really have Powers that Be or magic in the Serenifly verse, I don't think Wash is anything but dead right now. Heck, Tara died from one gunshot, and though many people survive from shots like hers, she didn't. And she didn't miraculously come back to life later. It was heartwrenching and senseless, just like Wash's death.
I just don't think Joss would trick us like that.
Of course, I hope I'm wrong. 
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Quote:
Originally posted by IsaacShepherd:
I have a question about something. I thought that the ship chasing Serenity on Mr. Universe's planet was a Reaver ship. I figured since it had an EMP that it would be Reavers, wanting to disable to ship so they can dock and eat everyone instead of blowing the ship appart.
It was a Reaver ship. If you watch you the opening scenes you will see that the ship does not match the designs of any of the Alliance craft.
__________________________________________
"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."
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Welcome pastorbadger!
Nice first post. Now don't bogart that
joint k? Gotta be some really good marijuana
in that thing. Seriously, pass it over here 'cause
I'd also like to make up a crazy story on how Wash can come back. We all miss him guy. Breathe, and
accept. Breathe,....and accept.
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I can't help but let a big smile slip thinking about river, sober as a judge thanks to getting Miranda out of her head, and Wash now mad as a march hare, thanks to Alliance interrogation.
We actually may see the juggling of goslings...
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It is so insane...it has to be true...diagram coming shortly
Kuang Zhe De 
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I too am sure it was a Reaver ship.
The theory on Wash's return is interesting, but denial can be an ugly thing. He's dead. Please get over it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
It was a Reaver ship. If you watch you the opening scenes you will see that the ship does not match the designs of any of the Alliance craft.
Buzzzzzzz! Oh, sorry but thank you for playing our game. Vanna has some lovely parting gifts for you.
We'll ignore for the moment that you've somehow got a comprehensive set of schematics for all Alliance craft in service, including contractors and new, secret designs, and consider the reavers for a moment: They didn't make their ships! They cut up and uglified whatever was left on Miranda. Maybe what they can jack in the performance of their daily mayhem. A.k.a. Alliance ships. Any reaver ship must also be an Alliance design.
It's the lack of really skinny folk ridin' on the outside of the ship I use to make this call. Reavers aren't known for a quick run through the auto-wash before a big battle.
(I meant that to sound considerably less harsh, but forums don't carry tone, so I'll throw one of these in
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Quote:
Originally posted by GreenFaerie:
I too am sure it was a Reaver ship.
The theory on Wash's return is interesting, but denial can be an ugly thing. He's dead. Please get over it.
I disagree, but fortunately this particular Elvis theory doesn't hinge on it. Seems likely, in addition to bein' true, though. Reavers are firing on everyone equally. Alliance are shooting at everyone, but want Serenity in particular.
So some here think it's a reaver makes the shot? Just don't add up. Don't change the facts, neither.
Hell, I ain't even sayin' Wash is STILL alive. Alliance could'a finished the job. Could'a been hit by traffic 'twixt then and now. I've got nothing to "give up". Just tellin' the part of the story we didn't see as I guess it happened.
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I do like the theory, and would dearly like Wash (and Book) to be fully active and corporeal in any future installments, but I do see two kinks in some of the information that you have here.
First is your response about the EMP, PastorBadger. The Reavers have EMP weapons. They're brought up in Serenity: The Pilot, I believe. Now I'm going to have to go look =p I know they've been addressed, though.
The other hitch I have with the master theory. The reavers likely aren't going to take the time and effort to unspit our dear pilot. That would assert, in the anal retentive styles of the Alliance, that they put into their report that they cut some guy in the pilot seat off of a telephone pole through his chest and revived him from the edge of the deep dark. Those guys answer to the Operative, and he's a thorough kind of guy that would have noticed a detail like that. With that being the case, I would imagine that once he passed along that the Tams were no longer a threat and resigned his post (without so many words) that he might have passed that tidbit along to Mal before he faded into the nothingness.
Just as an ancilliary addendum to your theory, however, I will assert that he did *exactly* that, but for artistic reasons (like this movie had to tie off plot lines in case there wasn't a sequel) the exchange of dialog that had that *crucial* piece of information was excised. We'll get to see it as the opening sequence of the next installment =)
Amiton.
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Did you watch the movie with commentary!!?? Or, did you watch the end of the movie!?
Gravestone = Dead
Being Impaled through the midsection by a giant barbed, multi-headed harpoon = Even more dead!
Joss says that it was a 'mutual argeement' on killing off the character. Alan would make jokes all the time to the effect of 'my script only goes to page 105...' and everyone would laugh. I'm going to say this for the umpteenth time. Joss has stated that Alan isn't done with the cast, but Wash is gone.
From a story writing standpoint, your assumptions make no sense. "Watch a play" ? I've read the post four times. Um, how does that fit in to a movie. You can't compare the two. Furthermore...if the alliance had come and found Wash slightly alive, they would have at least told the crew when they were being patched up after the battle.
C'mon people...we all miss him. But you're dwelling on this more than Zoe. He's gone (in flesh) so get over it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by pastorbadger:Quote:Any reaver ship must also be an Alliance design.
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
It was a Reaver ship. If you watch you the opening scenes you will see that the ship does not match the designs of any of the Alliance craft.
So ok, let me get this straight. All Reaver ships are Alliance ships, and this particular ship was also an Alliance ship, but it can't be a Reaver ship because it was an Alliance ship?
Quote:
It's the lack of really skinny folk ridin' on the outside of the ship I use to make this call. Reavers aren't known for a quick run through the auto-wash before a big battle.
I don't seem to remember every single Reaver ship having dead bodies on the outside of them. Did we see that in the pilot? I don't think so. Did we see that on the little spidery ship that Mal blows out of the black? No. Just because there's no dead people riding on top doesn't mean the ship isn't a reaver ship.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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That was... incredibly detailed.
But that Reaver harpoon destroyed his heart and lungs. Dude's dead. we may see him in flashbacks or something, but out dear, departed Wash is departed, dear.
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I'm with those who say Wash is dead as a doornail. It would ruin the whole ending of Serenity if Wash survived.
Also I'm pretty sure they chose a giant stake because it was so final. There's just no way he survived. It's not like we see him fall over a cliff and don't see him go splat. We get the splat. We get the no more breathing.
The memorial thing is wrong too. Sure Book's body might not be there, but we know darn sure Mr. Universe didn't up and leave. At the very least they probably burried his buffy bot if the Reavers somehow ate him. So, there were bodies to be burried. Besides I think they probably did bring Book's body onboard all Tracy style.
I'm betting they found Wash right where they left him. All dead.
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I'm willing to buy it. And for those of you saying Wash is dead, get over it. Well, it's a movie, Joss can do whatever he ruttin' wants, even bring him back to life. So "get over" our optimism.
Hope springs eternal.
I aim to misbehave!
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Bravo!
Even if it never comes to fruition, I sure had fun reading your idea of how Wash is alive. It is ,uhm, food for thought.
There's no place I can be since I found serenity.
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He's toast.
I agree that if he is on the show and/or movie screen again we will only see him in flashbacks, or in recordings, but not in the flesh.
I am willing to surmise that his body was intact for burial, though. Reavers don't bother with dead bodies. They like their food alive and kicking. An impaled, deader-than-dead Wash would be of no interest to them.
In the sci fi realm, you never really know though... cloning, anyone??? 
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"I am a leaf on the wind..."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
I do like the theory, and would dearly like Wash (and Book) to be fully active and corporeal in any future installments, but I do see two kinks in some of the information that you have here.
First is your response about the EMP, PastorBadger. The Reavers have EMP weapons. They're brought up in Serenity: The Pilot, I believe. Now I'm going to have to go look =p I know they've been addressed, though.
The other hitch I have with the master theory. The reavers likely aren't going to take the time and effort to unspit our dear pilot. That would assert, in the anal retentive styles of the Alliance, that they put into their report that they cut some guy in the pilot seat off of a telephone pole through his chest and revived him from the edge of the deep dark. Those guys answer to the Operative, and he's a thorough kind of guy that would have noticed a detail like that. With that being the case, I would imagine that once he passed along that the Tams were no longer a threat and resigned his post (without so many words) that he might have passed that tidbit along to Mal before he faded into the nothingness.
Just as an ancilliary addendum to your theory, however, I will assert that he did *exactly* that, but for artistic reasons (like this movie had to tie off plot lines in case there wasn't a sequel) the exchange of dialog that had that *crucial* piece of information was excised. We'll get to see it as the opening sequence of the next installment =)
Amiton.
Sigh. O.K., lets wade in here. First, to many of you, I ain't sayin' all of this because I have a desperate, abiding need for Wash to have survived. I just think I know what the Alliance was up to in that half-hour.
2. I do recall the mention of a "grappler" in the pilot, but they may have mentioned an EMP beam. Not important. Ship was all shiny and clean. Plus, we've never seen a reaver use an EMP weapon. We HAVE seen them use harpoons aplenty. Don't worry over this bone, because it dosn't change the outcome.
3. "The reavers likely aren't going to take the time and effort to unspit our dear pilot." Who said they'd unspit all of him? In this very movie we saw a couple of 'em settle right down for a meal in the middle of the street. And since they are there for meat, why wouldn't they take the time to do anything? They've got what they came for. It's reaver Miller time.
4a. "Those guys answer to the Operative, and he's a thorough kind of guy that would have noticed a detail like that." The operative stopped reading reports the second he saw the recording. His mission is over. Clean up is left for those who clean up. He's lost his faith, his job, and very likely his kneck soon enough. I think we can forgive him missing that detail.
Plus, although everyone reports to the operative, they don't know it. He called for every ship in the area. They report directly to thier captains. Their captains report to whatever high-ranking officer the operative has exposed his mission to. That (despite Jayne's opinions to the contrary) is the chain of command. Count on the grunts getting maybe two sentences. "Get that firefly and everyone on board". O.K., one sentence. "Don't get 'et" was probably just assumed.
4b. The operative would notice any detail. The two survivors remaining after enetering Serenity with a full squad of six, probably came out in little better shape than Wash. (Never interrupt a reaver at a picnic.) They can certainly be forgiven for neglecting to mention the pike, from which Wash was less than gently removed by two shots from a very large-calibur weapon, or a couple of beads from that fun burning gell from the pilot episode. Remember, the squad is assaulting a large complex. They're certainly carrying stuff to get through stubborn doors.
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come on guys,
I'm with PastorB on this.
Picky..picky ..picky
Anything can and could happen in the Joss/verse. Just take that rewind back a bit further...nope further... almost... there you go.
Jayne being pulled/stretched out full body length behind the mule while the crew is being chased by gorram reavers. With a metal spike throught the leg noless. Very believable.
Zip to onboard Serenity, Jayne hobbling along after that dang spiky thing, then days later in perfect health. All I can say is SHINY to modern medicine.
Now I'm lead to believe there ain't no hope for Wash. Sorry, I'm an optimist.You're gonna have to find Alan, send him to my house and have him tell me hes dead and Elvis better be with him
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Quote:
Originally posted by KellyofLuthien:
So ok, let me get this straight. All Reaver ships are Alliance ships, and this particular ship was also an Alliance ship, but it can't be a Reaver ship because it was an Alliance ship?
What? You've been to the reaver shipyard? Every reaver ship WAS an alliance ship. And yes, they do seem to get right to uglifying them.
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Quote:
Originally posted by pastorbadger:Quote:
Originally posted by KellyofLuthien:
So ok, let me get this straight. All Reaver ships are Alliance ships, and this particular ship was also an Alliance ship, but it can't be a Reaver ship because it was an Alliance ship?
What? You've been to the reaver shipyard? Every reaver ship WAS an alliance ship. And yes, they do seem to get right to uglifying them.
I see you answer this but fail to answer why other reaver ships don't have corpses on them either.
And also, you completely ignored my first post in which I wondering how Wash could have survived a stake attack that almost certainly collapsed both of his lungs.
Still not convinced, bud.
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Just to stir the puddin a bit on the Wash is alive side... For Wash to live, two things have to happen. 1) His body has to be quickly stabalized before brain death can happen. Then he can be 2) taken some place at leisure to be healed.
We know from The Message that healing him is within the capabilities of their technology. Tracy had all of his insides scooped out and replaced - even the removed organs were in storage to be replaced. Now how to stabalize Wash until that can happen? Do they still have River's freezer thingy on board?
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Erm...just want to make clear, PastorBadger, I don't disagree on any particular point =) I think the theory is awesome, but it had a few points that were a burr under my saddle, and I wanted to point that out =)
I do think it's likely that Wash is on the other side, personally, but I want to believe otherwise, and I'm willing to remain open to the possibility, and theories like this help that along. I promise, my post wasn't intended in any negative way. I just wanted to smooth the road a little more, for myself and anyone who stumbled the way that I did. Hell, I didn't make it nearly so far as this to logic out a feasible possibility for the theory to work on. I owe you a well-earned kudos on that, and I really should have said as much before.
Apologetically,
Amiton.
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Quote:
Originally posted by zzetta13:
come on guys,
I'm with PastorB on this.
Picky..picky ..picky
Anything can and could happen in the Joss/verse. Just take that rewind back a bit further...nope further... almost... there you go.
Jayne being pulled/stretched out full body length behind the mule while the crew is being chased by gorram reavers. With a metal spike throught the leg noless. Very believable.
Zip to onboard Serenity, Jayne hobbling along after that dang spiky thing, then days later in perfect health. All I can say is SHINY to modern medicine.
Now I'm lead to believe there ain't no hope for Wash. Sorry, I'm an optimist.You're gonna have to find Alan, sent him to my house and have him tell me hes dead and Elvis better be with him
Bravo! It's amazing what people will accept as fact, and what is rejected as fancy. And I quote from the book of Firefly - Zoe: "You live on a spaceship, dear." Wash: "What's your point?"
And as for the skewering of Jayne, let's not forget that miracle was accomplished with the resources of a cargo ship's medbay! (All props to Simon, of course.)
Now with a nice big Alliance cruiser, with the kind of medbay that fixed Book's heart with a bullet in it? Himself close enough to Heaven to ask St. Peter to turn his stereo down? C'mon! You just can't please some people.
And it doesn't matter much if the reaver's touched Wash. It just explains what the Feds were so busy doing while river was teaching the reavers the error of their ways.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
Erm...just want to make clear, PastorBadger, I don't disagree on any particular point =) I think the theory is awesome, but it had a few points that were a burr under my saddle, and I wanted to point that out =)
I do think it's likely that Wash is on the other side, personally, but I want to believe otherwise, and I'm willing to remain open to the possibility, and theories like this help that along. I promise, my post wasn't intended in any negative way. I just wanted to smooth the road a little more, for myself and anyone who stumbled the way that I did. Hell, I didn't make it nearly so far as this to logic out a feasible possibility for the theory to work on. I owe you a well-earned kudos on that, and I really should have said as much before.
Apologetically,
Amiton.
How about if I bring you a little closer?
True story. A kid in a new '67 Ford Mustang loses control and kisses a bridge abbutment head-on at about 45 mph. The impact drives the steering column right through his chest. His lungs are punctured and his heart is compressed and can't beat. Dead as stone, he is.
Quick-thinking ambulance drivers grab a concrete saw from an adjacent constrction site and cut him loose. Before the day of paramedics, and before amulances equipped like rolling hospitals, one of the drivers (a medic in WWII) sticks his hand in the kids chest and begins compressions directly on the heart.
The kid survives, albiet with partial pralysis from oxygen deprivation and some spinal damage.
Now, given that true story, how could anyone think that Wash might not have survived. Maybe Alliance medicine ain't what it should be given the year and technology, but it's better than 1967, Earth-that-was. And ask any experienced combat medic: he's seen way worse and then seen them come through it. Not always. Not even most of the time. But they'll all have seen it.
Ask Simon.
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Quote:
Originally posted by KellyofLuthien:
I see you answer this but fail to answer why other reaver ships don't have corpses on them either.
And also, you completely ignored my first post in which I wondering how Wash could have survived a stake attack that almost certainly collapsed both of his lungs.
Still not convinced, bud.
Not that I've been keepin' count, but I've never seen a clean and shiny reaver ship. As I've already said, though. Not integral to this chapter of the story.
Forum member Fivver and survvor of Serenity Valley, Tracey answered your second point. We're talking about a verse where girls can be shipped frozen as freight, and guys can be shipped temporarily dead by UPS. Seem so odd to you that a guy two minutes dead could have brain damage halted by a medical Maguffin? Remember: unconciousness at three minutes. Irreperable (with today's techniques) brain damage in twenty! Plenty of time for gettin' gnawed-on, cut out, carried back, and susequently lost in the system.
This has been fun guys. I'll be in my bunk.
(Switches back to lurk mode.)
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Ok boys and girls, I have got good news and bad news.
The good news
I think Wash may have had a one in a million chance to survive.
The Bad news
He will never dance again
From the attached diagram I have put together, it is feasible (highly unlikely though) that the harpoon (someone said multiheaded and barbed? I think is was shaped like a lance, not sure though)...that the harpoon could have entered right below the heart, in between the major vascular veins, and as it continued in, pushed the heart and lungs up and away with the ever increasing diameter of the harpoon. As mentioned in the bad news, if it was to pull of this miracle, it would have pulverized his spine around the T6 Vertibre.
Thin, but feasible...in fact, this is pretty sad 
Please reveiw the following link
Kuang Zhe De
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Quote:
Originally posted by KuangZheDe:
Ok boys and girls, I have got good news and bad news.
The good news
I think Wash may have had a one in a million chance to survive.
The Bad news
He will never dance again
From the attached diagram I have put together, it is feasible (highly unlikely though) that the harpoon (someone said multiheaded and barbed? I think is was shaped like a lance, not sure though)...that the harpoon could have entered right below the heart, in between the major vascular veins, and as it continued in, pushed the heart and lungs up and away with the ever increasing diameter of the harpoon. As mentioned in the bad news, if it was to pull of this miracle, it would have pulverized his spine around the T6 Vertibre.
Thin, but feasible...in fact, this is pretty sad
Please reveiw the following link
Kuang Zhe De
This is both the most sickeningly amusing and the most sane thing I've seen all day on this thread. That harpoon went all the way through the back of the seat Wash was in, so it definitely went out Wash's back. And since it was so nicely centered, you're right--it would have gone directly through the spine.
Thank you for this.
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Quote:
Originally posted by KuangZheDe:
Ok boys and girls, I have got good news and bad news.
The good news
I think Wash may have had a one in a million chance to survive.
The Bad news
He will never dance again
From the attached diagram I have put together, it is feasible (highly unlikely though) that the harpoon (someone said multiheaded and barbed? I think is was shaped like a lance, not sure though)...that the harpoon could have entered right below the heart, in between the major vascular veins, and as it continued in, pushed the heart and lungs up and away with the ever increasing diameter of the harpoon. As mentioned in the bad news, if it was to pull of this miracle, it would have pulverized his spine around the T6 Vertibre.
Thin, but feasible...in fact, this is pretty sad
Kuang Zhe De
O.K., one more, but then I'm quitting. I promise. I got fuzzy-wuzzies what need Jesus brung to 'em. lol
That's might fine shooting you're a chartin' there, Tex. Exactly dead on? Not 2 centimeters to either side, where by nature an elngated instrument would push the spinal column aside?
But then we go back to, why on earth would you think they can strip little bits off of River's brain, take out your organs and store 'em for weeks, and freeze little girls in boxes, but not be able to repair a pesky severed spinal column?
Folks, there's just no need to take it up as a challenge to poke holes in this idea. I'm sure you've all got flies with wings that need pullin'. The point is: You don't have to believe this chapter for Wash to live. You only have to suspend you disbelief. (Murmur of dawning realization washes over crowd.)
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Quote:They put him front and center, because he's their friend and they wanted to honor him.
Originally posted by engineangel:
They didn't bring Book's body with them to Mr. Universe's planet did they?
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Quote:
Originally posted by pastorbadger:
O.K., one more, but then I'm quitting. I promise. I got fuzzy-wuzzies what need Jesus brung to 'em. lol
That's might fine shooting you're a chartin' there, Tex. Exactly dead on? Not 2 centimeters to either side, where by nature an elngated instrument would push the spinal column aside?
Aren't you the one who said it went through his center and didn't hit his heart?
Quote:
But then we go back to, why on earth would you think they can strip little bits off of River's brain, take out your organs and store 'em for weeks, and freeze little girls in boxes, but not be able to repair a pesky severed spinal column?
Brain surgery and organ transplants are feasible even in this day and age.
Again, it is highly unlikely, given the amount of damage that Wash suffered from such a huge harpoon, that he was able to survive long enough for the Reavers to snack on him (which would damage him even more, btw) and then for the Alliance to a) take the time to stop the Reavers and b) decide he's somehow NOT dead, get him unpinned by the harpoon, and get him to a medical facility in time to stop massive brain damage, not to mention spinal damage, massive and multiple organ damage, and excessive blood loss.
Quote:
Folks, there's just no need to take it up as a challenge to poke holes in this idea. I'm sure you've all got flies with wings that need pullin'. The point is: You don't have to believe this chapter for Wash to live. You only have to suspend you disbelief. (Murmur of dawning realization washes over crowd.)
The same could be turned around and said to you as well. Denial is the first stage of grief.
Listen to Joss's commentary on the DVD. He talks about Wash's death. Alan has talked about Wash's death. He's dead, Jim.
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Christ All-friggin mighty!
What's wrong with u ppl?
I've been harpooned thru the sternum no less than a dozen times with a pike and each time it's only been a flesh wound.
For cryin out loud you'd think I've been afflicted with the eternally fatal "common cold" or something.
Gee whiz. Too much speculation. Wash lives.
XG
No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.
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Simple answer to the entire thing....
We find out quick in the next movie that the entire thing was just a dream of River's
That's right, she wakes up and everything is shiny once again
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Er . . . howdy! New recruit reporting for duty.
This new recruit wasn't so peeved about Wash's fate, when I had only seen the movie. But when I watched the whole series, well. That's another story. Now I can't see how the thing goes forward without Wash. I mean, sans Wash, what is Zoe, after all? She becomes an echo of either Mal (that hollowed-out-inside type character) or Jayne (the cold gunslinger), where before she was the antitype to both of those -- a stone-cold killer who nevertheless was a whole person, whose wholeness was bound up in her relationship. It didn't come out so much in the movie (aside: why was Wash in the movie such a pale vanilla character compared to Wash from the series? What was up with THAT?). Anyway, if you lose Wash, you lose Zoe too -- she becomes a redundant character, or an unsympathetic one (playing the grieving widow ad nauseum, which I really can't see, which puts us back at Door A).
So, I have joined the "Save Wash!" camp, because I also consider it to be the "Save Zoe!" camp, and without the both of them it just ain't the same!
That said . . .I find this scenario pretty improbable. I think it's pretty clear that the guy was D.E.A.D. dead. As for the Alliance saving him from that condition -- trust me on this, in fiction, you do NOT want the badguys bringing you back from the hereafter. That is just NEVER good. I mean, if the badguys bring you back, it's typically so that you can be their undead minion and serve their nefarious purpose, and is that really what we want for Wash of all people?
I'm also not a fan of the "Serenity 2: The Search for Wash" notion, with River in the Dr. McCoy role. That was cheesy when Star Trek did it. Ditto the "Wash as Obi Wan" ghost-mystic idea (although, you know, that might just work with Book . . . he could haunt Mal and give him daily reports straight from the Special Hell. . .)
But I do think Wash could return; I have my own theories on that score, and they don't involve anybody coming back from the dead or hanging around in incorporeal form. I'd elaborate but I've already gone on a bit excessively for a newbie; apologies!
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*snort* OK, this analysis had me laughing out loud, especially the graphic. I love it!
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One point concerning the bodies. While I can see Mr. Universe being left behind all corpsified Book and Wash were part of the crew. The "no man is left behind" creedo plays heavily into the show and one must remember that in almost every army that holds that tradition the tradition applies to your crewmates both alive or dead.
Nyte
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Quote:
Originally posted by nauticalgal:
I think it's pretty clear that the guy was D.E.A.D. dead.
You stymie me. You read and understood the account of the guy who endured almost exactly the same injury as Wash, and survived with 1967 medicine. You have seen the episode where Mal and Zoe sign for a very dead guy (with a very good doctor there to testify to it) sent through the mail. (I can't even get books through the mail that ain't been mangled.)
Still you think that Wash just has to be dead? Understand the difference between resuscitation and reanimation. The former happens every blessed day in our ‘verse. I don’t know if the latter happens every day in theirs, but I’m not going to rule out what’s commonplace here. It’s simply a survivable injury by our current standards.
You nattering nabobs of negativism (sorry, Barry Goldwater moment) are only convincing me that Wash being alive is not only possible, but now likely. WE could have saved Wash, for goodness sake. (Although I have conceded that Zoe would be less than sanguine with what parts of him might be inoperable with today’s medicine.)
I am perplexed at you folks going out of your way to have him dead. Is it fear that we’ll end up with it “all being a dream” or a journey to the sacred MacGuffin to restore his brain, or something equally silly? Spock did it. John Sheridan did it. Colonel O’Neil did it (four times). Did Luke do it? I can’t recall. Why are we so afraid of Wash doing it? (That’s not a serious question.) Because it would strip this wonderful ‘verse of it realism and integrity. That’s why.
My story is sensible, practical and believable. No voodoo, time travel, cloning or visits to the Sacred MacGuffin. Just horse sense and a good field medic. Do not be afraid of Wash surviving his accident. Trust in Joss. Joss will do it right. We’re all counting on it. (But no pressure.)
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I like the theory. I would love it to be true, because I think the Wash/Zoe relationship is a big part of the gestalt that was/is Firefly, and it just seems far too final to kill off two of the characters I liked the best.
I think your theory could work well, if Joss decides he wants Wash back. You're completely correct - the only muster it has to pass is "suspension of disbelief".
"You live in a spaceship". Nuff said.
Thanks for the post!
*** Think of it as evolution in action ***
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Hey, Spike was toasted to ashes and Joss brought him back with a necklace.
When a beloved character can still do great things for the storytellin', Joss will find a way to bring 'im back.
26th Century medicine could very well work a lot like magic.
11th Hour
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Quote:
Originally posted by 11thHour:
Hey, Spike was toasted to ashes and Joss brought him back with a necklace.
When a beloved character can still do great things for the storytellin', Joss will find a way to bring 'im back.
26th Century medicine could very well work a lot like magic.
I see Firefly in general as having a big departure atmosphere-wise from the rest of Whedon's business. Not knocking Buffy or Angel at all, but Firefly is supposed to be believable from the get-go; we're supposed to buy that what happens there could really happen (from small touches like no sound in space, to large ones like no FTL travel). The only stretches are River's ESP, and terraforming abilities.
That's why I have a hard time seeing anything occur which isn't realistic at the very least. The only time we'd seen someone brought back from death is when they were clinically dead for under a minute (Mal in War Stories). Otherwise, folks don't come back...
That being said, I'm gonna add something that'll sound like I just contradict myself. Given the amount of thought you put into this, PastorBadger, this has a glimmer... a faint glimmer... of possibility. But it'd have to be done real well, else it'd depart from the entire nature of the 'verse. Fact is, I don't see how it could happen myself without delving into disbelief, but perhaps someone with more vision could.
Still, the only completely believable way I've heard so far of bringing Wash back was from someone else who floated the idea of River "talking" to him while she's in the cockpit, sort of like a psychic residue, like how you imagine conversations in your head, but more vibrant 'cause it's River. KF
~KF
Lord, I'm walking your way. Let me in, for my feet are sore, my clothes are ragged.
Look in my eyes, Lord, and my sins will play out on them as on a screen. Read them all.
Forgive what you can and send me on my path. I will walk on until you bid me rest.
~Haven Prayer
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Quote:
written by Zeek:
The memorial thing is wrong too. Sure Book's body might not be there, but we know darn sure Mr. Universe didn't up and leave. At the very least they probably burried his buffy bot if the Reavers somehow ate him. So, there were bodies to be burried. Besides I think they probably did bring Book's body onboard all Tracy style.
I'm betting they found Wash right where they left him. All dead.
nope sorry. there might have been a body (mr.universe's) but that doesn't mean some other bodies could not be there, Book's definately not there, so why couldn't wash not be there as well? i think at least wash's "grave" is a memorial marker
keep flyin'
EngienAngel
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Alright guys, lets boil it down to the real meat of the theory, and throw the less important details to the wayside. (Like whether the ship was reaver or alliance (ahem, reaver, ahem))
Is it possible that he was impaled, fell unconscious, but survived for a couple of Alliance boots to take him out? Possible, yes. Easily so. But I say unlikely.
They Alliance boots who landed on the ground are under heavy orders to find the Tams, and stop the message. Would they search the ship? Yes. But they'd glide over his body like it was nothing. Remember Safe, when they took Book to the Cruiser Magellen? They were ready the leave him to die, and they didn't even have to take him on a shuttle, cruise him up through a raging reaver-Alliance battle, and tend to their own wounded first.
The only fact mitigating this would be a strong desire to interrogate him, which I would find it hard to speak to one way or the other.
Tristen
_____________
Carry the Nuttin'
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
The memorial thing is wrong too. Sure Book's body might not be there, but we know darn sure Mr. Universe didn't up and leave. At the very least they probably burried his buffy bot if the Reavers somehow ate him.
Nah, they took the love-bot with them - it's in Jayne's bunk.
Cheers,
Johnboy
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Quote:
Originally posted by EvilDinosaur:
And from what I've seen from the series and the movie, medicine has not come to the point of bringing people back from the dead, and even if Wash didn't die instantly, everyone was far too distracted to get him the first aid neccessary to stop him from dying.
Cough. Cough. Tracey. Cough. Cough.
Sure, he was only *mostly* dead. Cue.....
Miracle Max: There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do
Inigo: What's that?
Miracle Max: Go through his clothes and look for loose change
Cheers,
Johnboy
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I'm not here to argue about Wash's alive/dead status, but I am going to say that I am quite sure that the ship that chased/EMP'd/harpooned Serenity was a Reaver ship, mainly because YOU CAN SEE IT EARLIER WHEN THEY FIRST PASS THROUGH REAVER SPACE.
Seriously. Check it out. I'm 100% sure. When they first head to Miranda, there is a shot early on in their passage, i'm not sure exactly when, where you can see the same ship in the Reaver Asteroid Belt. With the pointy wing type things and all. It's kinda dark, but I think it gives of a small blip of light at some point.
That would make sense in the argument of "Where the heck were the Alliance for 20 minutes/half an hour?" They were still fighting the Reavers in the air and working their way down. They wouldn't have had the time to organize an infiltration like they did until they were no longer occupied, most like.
I'm convinced that the ship that chases/EMP's them is the harpooner, because why would they just stop chasing?
I'm babbling like a moonbrain.
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Quote:
Originally posted by CHOLLETT:
I'm not here to argue about Wash's alive/dead status, but I am going to say that I am quite sure that the ship that chased/EMP'd/harpooned Serenity was a Reaver ship, mainly because YOU CAN SEE IT EARLIER WHEN THEY FIRST PASS THROUGH REAVER SPACE.
Seriously. Check it out. I'm 100% sure. When they first head to Miranda, there is a shot early on in their passage, i'm not sure exactly when, where you can see the same ship in the Reaver Asteroid Belt. With the pointy wing type things and all. It's kinda dark, but I think it gives of a small blip of light at some point.
That would make sense in the argument of "Where the heck were the Alliance for 20 minutes/half an hour?" They were still fighting the Reavers in the air and working their way down. They wouldn't have had the time to organize an infiltration like they did until they were no longer occupied, most like.
I'm convinced that the ship that chases/EMP's them is the harpooner, because why would they just stop chasing?
I'm babbling like a moonbrain.
I don't understand your last assertion. Neither the bad guys nor the badder guys (you pick which is which) would have "just stopped chasing".
But as to the identity of the ship, you have a sharp eye. It was the same MODEL. The one in the reaver pack was an 8004. The one in the Alliance fleet was an 8010. (By the way, I have it on good authority the 8010 is the same machine, they just changed the plating 'n' hoped no one noticed.)
You see the same ship design and assume it's the same ship? You're gonna be real confused at the breaker's dock.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Johnboy:
Cough. Cough. Tracey. Cough. Cough.
Sure, he was only *mostly* dead. Cue.....
Miracle Max: There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do
Inigo: What's that?
Miracle Max: Go through his clothes and look for loose change
Cheers,
Johnboy
Oh, my dear and fluffy Lord. Have I really brought us to "Princess Bride" references? I am so sorry...
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Quote:
Originally posted by 11thHour:
26th Century medicine could very well work a lot like magic.
"Any technology, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke
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Wow, that was pretty well-thought-out. I'll take a faint glimmer of hope, sure.
I've heard Joss in a couple interviews mention there's at least a chance at bringing back Book and Wash if he was given another run at a sequel or another series. So sure, seems feasible, if not terribly likely.
Could be an interesting story arc, as well...
Well, I guess there's only one thing left to do: kidnap all the top execs from Fox, SciFi, CW, etc and start pulling fingernails until one of them gives in to reason :)
________________________________________________
You can take my hope when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
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Quote:
Originally posted by ThePistonEngine:
Alright guys, lets boil it down to the real meat of the theory, and throw the less important details to the wayside. (Like whether the ship was reaver or alliance (ahem, reaver, ahem))
Is it possible that he was impaled, fell unconscious, but survived for a couple of Alliance boots to take him out? Possible, yes. Easily so. But I say unlikely.
They Alliance boots who landed on the ground are under heavy orders to find the Tams, and stop the message. Would they search the ship? Yes. But they'd glide over his body like it was nothing. Remember Safe, when they took Book to the Cruiser Magellen? They were ready the leave him to die, and they didn't even have to take him on a shuttle, cruise him up through a raging reaver-Alliance battle, and tend to their own wounded first.
The only fact mitigating this would be a strong desire to interrogate him, which I would find it hard to speak to one way or the other.
Tristen
_____________
Carry the Nuttin'
My, what a pessimist. O.K., here's a pessimist's scenario:
A squad enters Serenity, making certain the Tams are not in residence. Surpise! They've just been invited to dinner by a couple of reavers. Bloodshed ensues. Two Feds left standing. One says to the other, "Hey, this pilot might make it." The other answers "So?"
"Well, if we take him back to the ship for, say," wink, "interrogation, then we don't have to rejoin our unit...up with the rest of the reavers!" Long pause. "Capitol, idea. Yes," speaking distinctly, "we shall capture him and take him back for interrogation." they exchange one enthusiastic nod, completely unaware of the Stan & Ollie impression.
That sound more plausable? lol Some things are universal. LIke the C-Y-A of the F-E-Ds.
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Quote:
Originally posted by nuclearday:
Wow, that was pretty well-thought-out. I'll take a faint glimmer of hope, sure.
I've heard Joss in a couple interviews mention there's at least a chance at bringing back Book and Wash if he was given another run at a sequel or another series. So sure, seems feasible, if not terribly likely.
Could be an interesting story arc, as well...
Well, I guess there's only one thing left to do: kidnap all the top execs from Fox, SciFi, CW, etc and start pulling fingernails until one of them gives in to reason :)
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You can take my hope when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
(Waving hands wildly...) SHHHHH!!!! Don't mention the fingernail plan in public! You'll spoil the surprise.
It's going to be hard enough to get 10,000 Jayne fans in dusters to sneak up on a Fox executive, without giving away the element of surprise. (We're gonna dress 'em up as spec writers with a screenplay to push. In Hollywood, they'll be goram invisible!)
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Wow. I don't know if I have much to add here and I almost didn't post, but then I looked at my alias and thought, I have to! Ignore me if I babble on too long.
Okay, you can probably tell that I'm firmly in the camp that would love to see Wash come back. He's my fave! My heart leaped when I saw the title of this thread. I did the little dance of joy.
I agree with what's been said about how important Wash is to the Zoe/Wash relationship, which I thought was one of the best marriage depictions on TV ever. I loved Wash's quips and his ability to switch from clueless clown to fearless hero in a moment (I'm just the pilot. I'll just save the entire gorram crew, that's all.) I really, really want Wash to come back.
That being said, I don't think it will happen. (I happen to agree with the previous post that it was a Reaver ship that EMP'd them and the Alliance came later because they were busy fighting Reavers, but I didn't have time to go back and check the DVD so I could be wrong here.)
Joss is a writer. I'm not a "real" writer, but I've tried, and one thing I know is that you can't cheat your reader/viewer. He dragged us headlong through all of that disbelief, grief, shock, etc., and there would have to be an incredibly strong reason to cheapen that by bringing back the character he killed to cause that reaction in the first place. It's not fair to us to make us go through all those emotions and then laugh it off and say, "I was just foolin'." I don't think he'd do that. I think he meant it.
I'm still sad about Wash and maybe I sell Joss short: maybe he could find a brilliant way to accomplish it. I just don't know if he could find a compelling enough reason to do it.
Just my opinion.
EDIT: Besides, if Joss brought Wash back, how could we ever believe him again if he killed another character? I couldn't.
"Hang on, travelers."
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You are a wonderful person.
a wonderful wonderful person.
you have brought joy back into my Wash-less existance.
I thank you....lots
Lola
" ya ever sailed on a Firefly?"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kizyr:
I see Firefly in general as having a big departure atmosphere-wise from the rest of Whedon's business. Not knocking Buffy or Angel at all, but Firefly is supposed to be believable from the get-go; we're supposed to buy that what happens there could really happen (from small touches like no sound in space, to large ones like no FTL travel). The only stretches are River's ESP, and terraforming abilities.
Wait... Buffy and Angel aren't believable?! WTH? I like totally bought into them. My disbelief happens to be suspended pretty darn high, and is held with steel cables...
Oh, and River's ESP makes perfect sense to me. Though the terraforming is problematical. The added challenges of planet proximity/distance to the Sun, and all kinds of wacky gravitational variances based on mass aren't even addressed... but those steel cables are holding pretty tight... so I go along for the ride.
I still think that if Joss set his mind to it, he could find a way to get Wash back... and do it in such a way that it would fit in with the way things work in the 'verse.
Quote:
That's why I have a hard time seeing anything occur which isn't realistic at the very least. The only time we'd seen someone brought back from death is when they were clinically dead for under a minute (Mal in War Stories). Otherwise, folks don't come back...
Firefly/Serenity takes place 500 years from now... things that we would consider impossible now could be quite doable by then. Hey, our technology right now would be inconceivable to someone who lived in the 1500s.
Btw, I do understand your point. It's just that Wash is a great character, plus he provides a meaningful dynamic in the ensemble. The interplay between Wash and Zoe, Wash and Mal, and Wash/Zoe/Mal, is a wonderful interplay... one that still had a lot more mileage to explore.
Serenity may have marked where the story arc would have taken us by Season 3, but we didn't get all those episodes that would have led up to then. I realize that characters on Joss' shows have a tendancy to get killed from time to time, but we all got cheated from seeing so many stories from this amazing ensemble of characters.
I happen to live firmly in the camp that we'll be seeing more stories from the Firefly/Serenity 'verse... and I was kinda lookin' forward to having the characters get to tell them... ALL the characters.
11th Hour
________________________________________________
"Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!" - Hoban Washburne
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Quote:
Originally posted by pastorbadger:
"Any technology, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke
Perfect!
LOVE that quote... must add it to my collection. Many thanks.
Plus, your posts, mighty entertainin' reading, well thought out, and I'm not above grabbing hope... even if it is a shred.
11th Hour
________________________________________________
"Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!" - Hoban Washburne
Firefly/Serenity Guerilla Marketing Posters ~ http://the11thhour.home.att.net
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After going through the posts, and re-reading the first one a few times I came up with a few things.
1st- The ship chasing Serenity had to be a Reaver ship for a few reasons. First, an EMP would be a weapon I would think a Reaver would be likely to use. Disabling an enemy instead of killing them is key for freshness. Following the theory that it is a Reaver ship it would make sense that the Reavers were right there when Serenity crash landed sticking Wash with harpoons. If the ship following Serenity was an Alliance ship would they EMP any Reaver ships near? That seems to be the biggest threat for now. Remember the look on the Operative's face when he first saw all those reaver ships? Even he is terrified of them.
2nd- Reavers were on Mal+crew's tail. Alliance going in to check Serenity for any reason seems unrealistic. They can do a scan to see if anyone is there but why is there was one heat signature? Transporting Wash with a harpoon in his chest seems a bit difficult as well. Given the urgency at the time, caring for some guy with a harpoon in his chest doesn't sound like the "charitable" alliance. Only way is if he has some amazing identcard like Shepherd Book. Pulling the harpoon out right away probably would kill him if he wasn't already dead. The amount of time he'd sit there with a harpoon in him is probably too long for medical help.
As for the gravestones, I have thought about that as well. Since I never saw any body being burried, it made me think that him living is possible. But if he is alive (or Book somehow) then I think Joss will bring him back in a way NO ONE BUT JOSS can conjure up. Either way we'll see Alan probably in a flashback, or dream but we'll see more. But inside I do hope one of these theories is right in that Wash is alive and well.
IS
The Bible's a bit fuzzy on the subject of kneecaps.
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mornin all,
First of all WELCOME to the new recruits "SHINY"
Thanks to Pastorbadger I think I counted bout 4or5 sign-ons. Great!! why be a lurker when you can put in your $0.2 and get the reaver at buffet treatment(you're the buffet)< This last part is a joke please don't take me serious.
I love threads like this it has me thinking about all kinds of new angles and yepp I can see both sides.
I think one of the things here is FEAR. That being fear of Washs return being done so badly that folks will go "Oh hell no, thats it back to the Happy Days reruns" click. Well have no FEAR,if Joss did bring Wash back I feel that it wouldn't be to near the begining of a new series and it wouldn't be like " Look guys it only went through my shirt and missed me completly.It did have the cloth pulled so tight I couldn't breath though." I think Joss is bettern that.
One other thing, Nauticalgal brought up something I hadn't considered.The "Mourning of Zoe" Washs death, the life changing event that it is, she can't be the same person. I see her as becoming a little less tolerant of Mal and maybe even "Jayne like" about his decisions.
I hope it won't be a cold day on an outter rim planet before the answers to many of these question are brought to light.
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Quote:
Originally posted by zzetta13:
mornin all,
First of all WELCOME to the new recruits "SHINY"
Thanks to Pastorbadger I think I counted bout 4or5 sign-ons. Great!! why be a lurker when you can put in your $0.2 and get the reaver at buffet treatment(you're the buffet)< This last part is a joke please don't take me serious.
I love threads like this it has me thinking about all kinds of new angles and yepp I can see both sides.
I think one of the things here is FEAR. That being fear of Washs return being done so badly that folks will go "Oh hell no, thats it back to the Happy Days reruns" click. Well have no FEAR,if Joss did bring Wash back I feel that it wouldn't be to near the begining of a new series and it wouldn't be like " Look guys it only went through my shirt and missed me completly.It did have the cloth pulled so tight I couldn't breath though." I think Joss is bettern that.
One other thing, Nauticalgal brought up something I hadn't considered.The "Mourning of Zoe" Washs death, the life changing event that it is, she can't be the same person. I see her as becoming a little less tolerant of Mal and maybe even "Jayne like" about his decisions.
I hope it won't be a cold day on an outter rim planet before the answers to many of these question are brought to light.
Thank you for the compliments. And I see exactly what you mean. A small group here are actually fighting for less plausible scenarios in an apparent attempt to keep Wash dead. You can smell the fear.
It's justified though. To quote my own self: "Is it fear that we’ll end up with it “all being a dream” or a journey to the sacred MacGuffin to restore his brain, or something equally silly? Spock did it. John Sheridan did it. Colonel O’Neil did it (four times). Did Luke do it? I can’t recall."
From
to . Coming back from the dead is stock and trade in science fiction. I'm hard pressed to remember a 'verse where it hasn't happened. Someone help me out. Can you think of any? And, given that, doesn't that make it a forgone conclusion that Wash must come back? He has no choice but to?1) Fellow FOX victim “Space, Above & Beyond”: The entire 58th is presumed dead when they fake a distress call and only Nathan makes it back with a head wound.
2) The progenitor, “Star Trek” : Captain Kirk is slipped a Mickey during a ritual fight to the death with Spock. Not to mention a whole movie dedicated to bringing the latter back from the very, very dead.
3) Star Wars, episode VI : Luke’s dad, Obi Wan, Yoda and Elvis all appear to Luke in their now-ascended ghostly form, while the party continues with the original fuzzy-wuzzies.
4) Babylon V : Captain John Sheridan leaps down a very deep hole after triggering a passel of nuclear weapons on a ship which is hurtling right at his butt. He is brought back from “tock”, but only for twenty years. Coming back from the dead gains him cult status among the member races and convention goers.
5) Stargate, SG-1 : With several examples to choose from, I’ll pick Daniel dying in front of witnesses in the infirmary, only to appear naked in a field two seasons later after the ascended beings kicked him out, and after deciding maybe his contract wasn’t such a raw deal after all.
6) O.K., my memory is beginning to fail, but let me make a stab at an “other” category. Dr. Who dies every few years, but the most recent incarnation fits “back from the dead” best. Some of the crew of the Seaview were infected by a “spore” which reanimated their dead bodies in “Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea”. Apollo was presumed dead in “The Lost Warrior” on the “Battlestar Galactica”. In “Giant Robot”, the AI with the best sarcastic wit in television is resuscitated against impossible odds on “Lost in Space”. (Oh, jeez, I am really scraping here…) Uhm. “Blake’s 7”? “The Starlost”? “Lexx”? “Farscape”? I know it happened, just can’t remember when. Help me out here.
The worst example of all time? Superman flies very fast around the earth (what?) to turn back time
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Quote:
Originally posted by IsaacShepherd:
After going through the posts, and re-reading the first one a few times I came up with a few things.
Alliance going in to check Serenity for any reason seems unrealistic. They can do a scan to see if anyone is there but why is there was one heat signature?
Actually I contend with almost every assertion in your post, but I snipped it because I'm all shagged out from my last diatribe. I picked the most glaring.
Alliance troops checking Serenity is unrealistic? Could it be you ain't recallin' the varied and sneaky ways the Tams have gone undetected on that boat before now? And isn't Serenity the star of this little operation?
One life sign? Did I not explain that by now there were two reavers already at the table and two more fightin' over a drumstick? (I can see now how River kills people with math.) Reavers is...was...human. They show up on a scan as sure as you or me.
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Quote:
Originally posted by pastorbadger:
6) O.K., my memory is beginning to fail, but let me make a stab at an “other” category. Dr. Who dies every few years, but the most recent incarnation fits “back from the dead” best. Some of the crew of the Seaview were infected by a “spore” which reanimated their dead bodies in “Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea”. Apollo was presumed dead in “The Lost Warrior” on the “Battlestar Galactica”. In “Giant Robot”, the AI with the best sarcastic wit in television is resuscitated against impossible odds on “Lost in Space”. (Oh, jeez, I am really scraping here…) Uhm. “Blake’s 7”? “The Starlost”? “Lexx”? “Farscape”? I know it happened, just can’t remember when. Help me out here.
Ooh, ooh! I just remembered one more, "Timecop." (I didn't remember that one because I used a time machine to go back and stop myself from buying a ticket and wasting two hours of my life.)
You know, I'm going to be remembering them all day now.
The ultimate "bringing them back from the dead" 'verse? Gotta be either "Blade" or "Millenium". (Hey, I didn't say they had to be good...
)
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WASH LIVES, anybody who disagrees will be pushed into the engines. I don't mean to come across as harsh but with multiple theories, and a nifty diagram if I do say so myself, it is 110% guaranteed that there is a 10-15% chance he is still alive.
Kuang Zhe De
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Quote:
Originally posted by KuangZheDe:
WASH LIVES, anybody who disagrees will be pushed into the engines. I don't mean to come across as harsh but with multiple theories, and a nifty diagram if I do say so myself, it is 110% guaranteed that there is a 10-15% chance he is still alive.
Thank you, Zoe. Now, put the Winchester down.
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Quote:
Originally posted by pastorbadger:
Actually I contend with almost every assertion in your post, but I snipped it because I'm all shagged out from my last diatribe. I picked the most glaring.
Alliance troops checking Serenity is unrealistic? Could it be you ain't recallin' the varied and sneaky ways the Tams have gone undetected on that boat before now? And isn't Serenity the star of this little operation?
One life sign? Did I not explain that by now there were two reavers already at the table and two more fightin' over a drumstick? (I can see now how River kills people with math.) Reavers is...was...human. They show up on a scan as sure as you or me.
Help me out with something, Pastorbadger. I'm a likeable guy, and I presume that you are, too =) Bear in mind, I'm not asserting *anything* about your theory. I've said my part on that, you responded, and that's on the table.
I want to ask, though, are you intentionally trying to assert that people that don't accept your theory are foolish? The way that you seem to be responding to everyone that questions, even just a little bit, any part of your theory is that they obviously don't get what you're saying and/or must not be capable of seeing the obvious. I'll concede for just about anyone you want that your proposal is plausible. We've all seen significantly worse scripts work around character deaths.
For criminy sake, though, the guy took a telephone pole through the solar plexus. If there's an obvious assumption, it's that he's on the outs. There are plot devices that can be used to get around that, I'll acknowledge. Your theory is one of them. I'm down with that. It's been done in just about every series in existance where main characters die, so it can be a trend. Okay. (BTW, that also kind of means it's cliche, and can work just as much to mean that it's something that Joss won't touch for the sole reason that everyone does it - see the quote about lasers and FTL travel in SciFi).
I guess all that I'm asking is not to look down so much on people that don't jump on your coattails. Maybe you don't mean to, but you really are, at least from what I see in your messages, coming off as condescending and kind of disrespectful to the discussion participants that aren't 100% behind you.
Amiton.
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I LOVE this thread. Not saying I agree but I do love it.
Would love for Wash to be alive, him being dead is really gonna mess Zoe up and Joss does have a thing for bringing the dead back to life.
Hope you're right but fear you're wrong.
Just watched BDM for the billionth time and it still shocks/surprises me when Wash gets skewered (I almost expect it to be a different ending, with Wash alive), and I still cry. My little sister thought something really bad had happened when she came in and I was sobbing uncontrolably.
Just thought I'd give my opinion since everyone else is.
Where do I sign up for Fox exec torture mission?
'Midbulk transport, standard radion accelerator, class cod 03-K64, FireFly.'
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Is it a cliche to never use a cliche?
Kuang Zhe De
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
Help me out with something, Pastorbadger. I'm a likeable guy, and I presume that you are, too =) Bear in mind, I'm not asserting *anything* about your theory. I've said my part on that, you responded, and that's on the table.
I want to ask, though, are you intentionally trying to assert that people that don't accept your theory are foolish? The way that you seem to be responding to everyone that questions, even just a little bit, any part of your theory is that they obviously don't get what you're saying and/or must not be capable of seeing the obvious. I'll concede for just about anyone you want that your proposal is plausible. We've all seen significantly worse scripts work around character deaths.
For criminy sake, though, the guy took a telephone pole through the solar plexus. If there's an obvious assumption, it's that he's on the outs. There are plot devices that can be used to get around that, I'll acknowledge. Your theory is one of them. I'm down with that. It's been done in just about every series in existance where main characters die, so it can be a trend. Okay. (BTW, that also kind of means it's cliche, and can work just as much to mean that it's something that Joss won't touch for the sole reason that everyone does it - see the quote about lasers and FTL travel in SciFi).
I guess all that I'm asking is not to look down so much on people that don't jump on your coattails. Maybe you don't mean to, but you really are, at least from what I see in your messages, coming off as condescending and kind of disrespectful to the discussion participants that aren't 100% behind you.
Amiton.
Well put. Ah, if only that were the first time I'd been so admonished on a forum.
Yes, I am quite genial in person. But I do come across as a
in a forum. (Or, guess I should say I come across as a pi ku.)Fortunately, I'm only on a couple forums. I'm not much of a poster sort of person. You folks are just lucky, I guess. ;)
It's also an occupational hazard. When I tell people to stand up or sit down, I'm unaccustomed to getting an argument.
Sorry (to everyone here) if I've been brusque.
I'll try to be a little more Browncoat and a little less Alliance.
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"Freshly dead" Suddenly I just remember The Princess Bride.
Miricle Max:It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do.
Inigo Montoya: What's that?
Miracle Max: Go through his clothes and look for loose change.
Wash brought back to life by the Aliiance?
INCONCEIVABLE!!
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People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SAVEWASH:
Joss is a writer. I'm not a "real" writer, but I've tried, and one thing I know is that you can't cheat your reader/viewer. He dragged us headlong through all of that disbelief, grief, shock, etc., and there would have to be an incredibly strong reason to cheapen that by bringing back the character he killed to cause that reaction in the first place. It's not fair to us to make us go through all those emotions and then laugh it off and say, "I was just foolin'." I don't think he'd do that. I think he meant it.
I'm still sad about Wash and maybe I sell Joss short: maybe he could find a brilliant way to accomplish it. I just don't know if he could find a compelling enough reason to do it.
Just my opinion.
EDIT: Besides, if Joss brought Wash back, how could we ever believe him again if he killed another character? I couldn't.
Thanks for that SAVEWASH. Exactly right. Bringing Wash back, as good as that would be, would cheapen the story. That's the way I see it.
Personally, I think Wash's spirit is tied up in that electrical energy surrounding Mr. Universe's planet and he'll communicate with the crew via radio.
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Quote:
Originally posted by pastorbadger:Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
It was a Reaver ship. If you watch you the opening scenes you will see that the ship does not match the designs of any of the Alliance craft.
Buzzzzzzz! Oh, sorry but thank you for playing our game. Vanna has some lovely parting gifts for you.
We'll ignore for the moment that you've somehow got a comprehensive set of schematics for all Alliance craft in service, including contractors and new, secret designs, and consider the reavers for a moment: They didn't make their ships! They cut up and uglified whatever was left on Miranda. Maybe what they can jack in the performance of their daily mayhem. A.k.a. Alliance ships. Any reaver ship must also be an Alliance design.
It's the lack of really skinny folk ridin' on the outside of the ship I use to make this call. Reavers aren't known for a quick run through the auto-wash before a big battle.
(I meant that to sound considerably less harsh, but forums don't carry tone, so I'll throw one of these in
I am sorry my friend, but it is you that is wrong. I was on the development team for the game & YES we had access to the Alliance ship designs from the movie, and the ship that hits Serenity w/ the EMP is most definitely NOT an Alliance craft.
Your theory is interesting, but alas is based on erroneous information.
Hope that didn't sound harsh. It was not meant to be.
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"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."
Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:
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the emp came from a reaver ship. wash is dead.
so the crew came back to serenity after the battle and wash was gone?
wash was a great guy but he's gone.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
I am sorry my friend, but it is you that is wrong. I was on the development team for the game & YES we had access to the Alliance ship designs from the movie, and the ship that hits Serenity w/ the EMP is most definitely NOT an Alliance craft.
Your theory is interesting, but alas is based on erroneous information.
Hope that didn't sound harsh. It was not meant to be.
I feel a powerful hankerin’ to be brusque again. ;) First of all, I'm never wrong. Just occasionally misinformed.
On to the point. There isn't one. To quote Jayne, "Don't matter what I said before." I've already relented that it doesn't matter if that ship was Alliance, the outcome doesn't change.
That said, of course it was an Alliance ship. That's a given. Reavers don't sit at drafting tables, work at shipyards or take courses at the local community college. Reavers don't lay keels. Therefore, all ships they fly were either left on Miranda or have been jacked since then. Even if it was full of reavers, it was an Alliance ship. Semantics aside, it’s a question is who’s fleet/pack was it party to.
It was also in the Alliance fleet, because reavers never, ever fly shiny new rides. They have, in every circumstance, conveyed themselves in seriously (cosmetically and mechanically) messed up ships. I doubt they’d lift off in a freshly jacked ride without throwing some mud on the tires. Are you suggesting the extremely unlikely proposal that this particular ship was captured moments before the big battle? “I smell a lot of ‘if’ commin’ offa this plan…”
You say you had access to ship schematics, then you know that animators will use the same template for a dozen rendered ships in a single scene, let alone a ship in two different scenes. If a game uses two disjoint sets of keels for reavers and Alliance, then they’ve flattened the ‘verse to two dimensions. (Not uncommon in a game translation.)
And what is it with the whole pack of you folks who seem to be plucking “an EMP beam is a reaver weapon” out of the gua pi? Feds use non-lethal weapons. Remember the stun rifles from “Ariel” and “Trash”?
I’ll say it again. Feds use non-lethal weapons (along with the lethal ones, to be clear). Reavers use harpoons or magnetic grapplers. Both are very low-tech and easy to maintain. Not subtle nor over-thought. You just watched a slew of reavers using those very harpoons not 30 seconds ago.
Yet it gets into your head that the shiny, clean ship with the high-tech beam weapon just has to be a reaver. “You have a problem with your brain bein’ missin’.”
(Sorry I had to go all Alliance on your pi ku, but “dead horse: good cover, live horse: great pile o’ panic.”)
Oh, and it still doesn't matter which of is is right on this point. ;P
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeC:
the emp came from a reaver ship. wash is dead.
Sure could be. We already know they ship dead folk via UPS in this 'verse. Could be next time Zoe makes mail call she gets a happy surprise. (C.O.D. for the mdical bills from the Alliance, of course.) The next movie will center on the Serenity crew's efforts to get enough scratch to get Wash's suspended body out of hock. vbg.
Quote:
Originally posted by mikeC:
so the crew came back to serenity after the battle and wash was gone?
O.K., now I'm waxing full-on cranky. Who posts a criticism to a forum when he hasn't even read the first post! "The crew returns to Serenity to find only bits of Wash and obvious signs of reaver activity. What would you assume? Even Kaylee believes he’s either gone, or in a reavers “Buffy” lunch box. Tears ensue."
Quote:
Originally posted by mikeC:
wash was a great guy but he's gone.
Unless mikeC is an anagram for JOSS, you'll forgive me if I don't just take that haughty proclamation as fact.
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Quote:
Originally posted by pastorbadger:
That said, of course it was an Alliance ship. That's a given. Reavers don't sit at drafting tables, work at shipyards or take courses at the local community college. Reavers don't lay keels. Therefore, all ships they fly were either left on Miranda or have been jacked since then. Even if it was full of reavers, it was an Alliance ship. Semantics aside, it’s a question is who’s fleet/pack was it party to.
It was also in the Alliance fleet, because reavers never, ever fly shiny new rides. They have, in every circumstance, conveyed themselves in seriously (cosmetically and mechanically) messed up ships. I doubt they’d lift off in a freshly jacked ride without throwing some mud on the tires. Are you suggesting the extremely unlikely proposal that this particular ship was captured moments before the big battle? “I smell a lot of ‘if’ commin’ offa this plan…”
You say you had access to ship schematics, then you know that animators will use the same template for a dozen rendered ships in a single scene, let alone a ship in two different scenes. If a game uses two disjoint sets of keels for reavers and Alliance, then they’ve flattened the ‘verse to two dimensions. (Not uncommon in a game translation.)
Looks like you are "misinformed" again.
The Alliance is not the only producer of spacecraft in the 'verse. There are private ship builders, big corporations (Blue Sun), and other sources of space craft than just the Alliance. Assuming because it flies it must have been Alliance at some point is pure speculation.
Never said the ship was captured moments before the battle. Not even sure how you arrived at that from what I posted.
Actually there were many different types of vessels we looked at for the game. Don't be surprised if a forth coming supplement for the game show cases a bunch of different ships, Alliance and others.
__________________________________________
"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."
Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:
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Ok how many times can we beat a dead horse, I mean Wash. 2052
Hes dead,hes not...dead...not.... the debate contiunes.
Joss,start the new series so we can stop this maddness.
It is fun though
to date the dead that have been brought back on the show, Tracy,Mal...... In the bonus material Joss has said that killing off Wash (and Book) was a good way to have people think that Simon was a gonner too in the scene behind the blast doors.Well I say " Joss,Thats no reason to kill off Wash Gorramit!!"
I don't know about the rest of you.But when those blast doors open and Miss Tam is standing there, weapons dripping. I can't help but think "Red River Sonja"
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
The Alliance is not the only producer of spacecraft in the 'verse. There are private ship builders, big corporations (Blue Sun), and other sources of space craft than just the Alliance. Assuming because it flies it must have been Alliance at some point is pure speculation.
When I say, "an American ship", I don't mean to say a ship built by the American government exclusively. In fact, it's all done by contractor now, so I wouldn't be surprised if all American ships weren't built by private companies, including recent warships.
When I say "an Alliance ship", I only mean to exclude those built by the Independence and then, only during the war.
Now, all ships are Alliance ships, excluding those built by cow fetuses. It's a semantic point, and means even less than the larger issue of who tagged Serenity first.
The important issue I stand behind, is that reavers don't build ships, and don't fly any particular model. There's probably some sorry, scraggly reaver who could only manage a Firefly transport. (Why else would Serenity have been able to sneak by in one. Eh? Eh? Think about THAT! (does the in-your–face dance)
(O.K., O.K., settle down now. Remember what your therapist said : It’s just a TV show…)
Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Never said the ship was captured moments before the battle. Not even sure how you arrived at that from what I posted.
(raises voice) BECAUSE IT’S ALL PRETTY AND SHINY! I arrived at it from your post because you want us to believe it could possibly have been a reaver. If you want us to believe it was a reaver ship, it had to be ‘just’ captured, and then I still say they wouldn’t move on without putting enough “bravado” on the hull to avoid attack by fellow reavers.
Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Actually there were many different types of vessels we looked at for the game. Don't be surprised if a forth coming supplement for the game show cases a bunch of different ships, Alliance and others.
O.K., THAT I’m looking forward to. But if there aren’t any cows, can it still be a Firefly game? Never mind. Philosophical question. They won’t remember what they are in a game…
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I hate to say it but your point is floored is O so many ways the fact they had Mr universe’s body and Shepard books (If you must know it was on the front of the ship) and the graves were all the same, and the way the feds work they wanted to kill the Tams so more of a shoot first and ask questions later
Bendas
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Sorry to have to put my 2 cents in. I have been lurking for a long time, but this post made me jump in.
I am not sure why you are meeting the idea that Wash may be alive with such disdain. The theory put forward is entirely plausible.
I have seen Serenity roughly 25 times since I got the DVD. I have ALWAYS assumed that it was an Alliance ship that hit Serenity with an EMP. Reavers would have grappled or harpooned.
Bottom line is this - we don't know, most of us hope. The only person who will know is Joss when and if he gets the go ahead.
Find something else to argue about.
Sorry. I feel like I am in kindergarten sitting between 2 know-it-alls who won't budge.
Show me off like a dog, Old men covered in blood, never touched them but they're drowning in it
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Serenity 2: Joss Repents
Opening scene
=============
(Zoe in Serenity's cargo hold, insuring everything is securely stored.)
Zoe (singing): "Take my love, take my land..."
(A shadowy figure emerges behind her and groans. Startled, Zoe spins and draws a gun. The camera focuses in and we see a man in rags covered in dirt from head to toe.)
Shadowy figure: "Honey, why did you bury me alive?"
(From the voice, we realize with Zoe that the figure is Wash!)
Zoe: "Wash! You were dead! There was a harpoon through your heart!"
Wash: "My heart was moved when I was kid. Result of a trampoline accident..."
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Quote:
Originally posted by jolly:
Serenity 2: Joss Repents
Opening scene
=============
(Zoe in Serenity's cargo hold, insuring everything is securely stored.)
Zoe (singing): "Take my love, take my land..."
(A shadowy figure emerges behind her and groans. Startled, Zoe spins and draws a gun. The camera focuses in and we see a man in rags covered in dirt from head to toe.)
Shadowy figure: "Honey, why did you bury me alive?"
(From the voice, we realize with Zoe that the figure is Wash!)
Zoe: "Wash! You were dead! There was a harpoon through your heart!"
Wash: "My heart was moved when I was kid. Result of a trampoline accident..."
lol Funniest one yet.
Did you know there's a real medical condition wher the heart is on the opposite side of the chest? Many decades ago, teenager survived a stabbing because he was left-hearted.
As with Mal's relocated nerve cluster, we should never assume.
(And an extra chuckle for submitting in screenplay form.)
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Quote:
Originally posted by OnlyMe:
Sorry to have to put my 2 cents in. I have been lurking for a long time, but this post made me jump in.
I am not sure why you are meeting the idea that Wash may be alive with such disdain. The theory put forward is entirely plausible.
I have seen Serenity roughly 25 times since I got the DVD. I have ALWAYS assumed that it was an Alliance ship that hit Serenity with an EMP. Reavers would have grappled or harpooned.
Bottom line is this - we don't know, most of us hope. The only person who will know is Joss when and if he gets the go ahead.
Find something else to argue about.
Sorry. I feel like I am in kindergarten sitting between 2 know-it-alls who won't budge.
"It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it."
Jeseph Joubert.
You're absolutely right. He's "Scrodinger's Washburn", right now. Both alive and dead until Joss has a bad Denver omlette and, in a fit of pique, decides that he's alive, but none of the rest of the crew will ever find out about it.
Actually, it's not entirely in Joss' hands. He does care what we think. He would care a lot if none of us wanted a Serenity that didn't have Wash in it. Not saying Joss always gets his way, just that sometimes we get our way with Joss.
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I know I keep coming back to this thread and I do because................well,I can.
Joss has built such a fan base with his other television shows that adding little bits and pieces here and there are fun for him. By this I mean Puting little things in just to fool the fandom or see if they catch it. Heck Joss himself might not know if Wash is truly dead.
Something that made me think that something was odd about the Wash scene was that after the "run through" he dramaticly lets out his last gasp of air. Now, was that to have the viewer go "Hey the man is truly dead.Cause that had to be his last breath."
I know it was an excited moment and Zoe and Mal rushed away from the danger in 10 seconds,but if you play the scene back again and just have Wash sit there in your mind without the heavy last breath isn't he still dead?
This kinda feels like to me (as in american football) a backfield reverse.Kinda have the crowd follow one way, while the ball goes the other.Crafty and very skillful,Joss.
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Quote:
Originally posted by OnlyMe:
Sorry to have to put my 2 cents in. I have been lurking for a long time, but this post made me jump in.
Welcome! Glad to have you here!
Quote:
Originally posted by OnlyMe:
I have seen Serenity roughly 25 times since I got the DVD. I have ALWAYS assumed that it was an Alliance ship that hit Serenity with an EMP. Reavers would have grappled or harpooned.
You do realize of course that an EMP weapon in space where there is no gravity would be far more effective than a harpoon or grapple. A ship floating dead in space would be easy prey.
Just sayin'.
__________________________________________
"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."
Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/
http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org
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Quote:
Originally posted by zzetta13:
I know I keep coming back to this thread and I do because................well,I can.
Joss has built such a fan base with his other television shows that adding little bits and pieces here and there are fun for him. By this I mean Puting little things in just to fool the fandom or see if they catch it. Heck Joss himself might not know if Wash is truly dead.
Something that made me think that something was odd about the Wash scene was that after the "run through" he dramaticly lets out his last gasp of air. Now, was that to have the viewer go "Hey the man is truly dead.Cause that had to be his last breath."
I know it was an excited moment and Zoe and Mal rushed away from the danger in 10 seconds,but if you play the scene back again and just have Wash sit there in your mind without the heavy last breath isn't he still dead?
This kinda feels like to me (as in american football) a backfield reverse.Kinda have the crowd follow one way, while the ball goes the other.Crafty and very skillful,Joss.
Actually, the last exhalation means his trachea is still connected to his lungs. For a major pnemothorax, the air will bubble out through the wound. You're right. Major clue.
"Hey! Where's that guy with the goram medical charts?"
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PastorB
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
You do realize of course that an EMP weapon in space where there is no gravity would be far more effective than a harpoon or grapple. A ship floating dead in space would be easy prey.
Just sayin'.
Which is clearly why the Alliance uses 'em, even if they are over-thought and hard to maintain.
Just sayin' back.
;)
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Thanks! Glad to be here. Happy to know I am not the only one obsessed with the 'verse.
I do. That only makes me more sure that it was Alliance.
An emp in atmo would only temporarily disable the ship, giving the Alliance an opportunity to catch them. That seems a little too refined for Reavers.
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Quote:
Originally posted by jolly:
Serenity 2: Joss Repents
Opening scene
=============
(Zoe in Serenity's cargo hold, insuring everything is securely stored.)
Zoe (singing): "Take my love, take my land..."
(A shadowy figure emerges behind her and groans. Startled, Zoe spins and draws a gun. The camera focuses in and we see a man in rags covered in dirt from head to toe.)
Shadowy figure: "Honey, why did you bury me alive?"
(From the voice, we realize with Zoe that the figure is Wash!)
Zoe: "Wash! You were dead! There was a harpoon through your heart!"
Wash: "My heart was moved when I was kid. Result of a trampoline accident..."
I just saw this and thought it was so gorram funny.
The next line from Zoey " Well after being your wife,I'm glad other parts of you were in the right place."
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I think Joss was trying to make it pretty certain with the impaling.
PsychicRiver
"Two by two, hands of blue." 
"We'll take care of each other. I'll knit!"
"I swallowed a bug."
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