Illegal immigration

POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 22, 2026 17:49
VIEWED: 84374
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SIGNYM

Sunday, March 26, 2006 4:13 AM (P)

My first reaction to the demonstrations has been less than generous. People demand to be legalized just because they want it? Most other nations have strict immigation laws, so why should the US be singled out to throw open its borders? The large grafitti-covered neighborhoods where homies speak Spanglish with north Mexican drawl makes me think we haven't absorbed the last couple of generations yet.

Don't get me wrong- my dad was an immigrant. My SO immigrated to the USA. My grandparents on my mom's side were immigrants. My SO walked out of Hungary in 1956 and was plunked into second grade not speaking a lick of English. Now he works as a computer/ engineering guru for a major university. But they were LEGAL immigrants. They worked hard and they assimilated.

And then aside from feelings of cultural lifeboatism, there's the whole issue of having a whole population of desperate workers. Why export your business when you've got a foreign, intimidated population right at home? Illegal immigration is good for agribusiness, homeowners who want to pay rock-bottom dollar for a 24-7 nanny, and construction companies but does it do any good for the average US worker to be competing on those grounds?

But I don't think the law that was passed will work.

Your thoughts?

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

DONTCALLMELAWRENCE

Sunday, March 26, 2006 7:36 AM (P)

First off I just want to say that I got caught in the huge march in downtown LA this weekend. Not because I wanted to be, but because I had to go down to the garment district. Something that should have taken 1 hour took 4.

now tell me if I’m wrong, because I am not noted for my grasp of current events, but this is my understanding of this whole thing:

they are protesting because they are being called/made criminals for immigrating ILLEGAL.

And this is just something that bothers me...

people say all the illegal immigrant in California are good "because they do jobs americans won't do." This is not true. I have cousins who can't move out here because they cannot find work largely due to the fact that those jobs are held by illegal immigrants.

I'm not against immigration or anything, but it does seem stupid to be upset about something illegal being made... illegal.

Lawrence

****************************
Tom: The men from 2nd Maine are being fed, sir.

Lawrence: Don’t call me sir.

Tom: Well, Lawrence, Great God A-Mighty–

Lawrence: You just be careful of that name business in front of the men. Listen, we don’t want anybody to think there’s favoritism.

Tom: General Meade has his son as his ajutant.

Lawrence: That’s different. Generals can do anything. Nothing quite so much like God on earth as a general on a battlefield.

FLETCH2

Sunday, March 26, 2006 8:23 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by DontCallMeLawrence:
And this is just something that bothers me...

people say all the illegal immigrant in California are good "because they do jobs americans won't do." This is not true. I have cousins who can't move out here because they cannot find work largely due to the fact that those jobs are held by illegal immigrants.

Well a more accurate quote is that they can't hire an American for the amount they are willing to pay. This isn't just a matter of the immigrant working for lower pay, by using undocumented workers employers can cut taxes, social security, insurance and other overheads from the equation that they couldn't legally do with an American.

DREAMTROVE

Sunday, March 26, 2006 12:37 PM (P)

Sygnym,

I really agree.

Open immigration has been an invitation to disaster in other countries, and litterally the end for South Africa. Anyone who's studied the whole S.A. imigration nightmare, or even paid attention, should see the potential for badness. It's not like Mexico is zimbabwe, but it does border countries like Guatamala which more or less are.

My grandmother came here to escape the Nazis. As a Czech princess, she was also on the list of enemies of the great social revolution. Living on a town on the German border during the 30s, they began to be worried and sent her and a now dead aunt to America. They were right, everyone who stayed behind got killed.

This is one of two situations that I can see immigration as being a oksy. The other is when people come here to go to school, for a particular decent job, or are in some way clearly going to be a benefit to the society. Otherwise you get what Europe is getting now, which is a flood of people whose intent is to be a drain on the system.

RUSSELL

Sunday, March 26, 2006 11:50 PM (P)

Ill put my 2 cents in on this because I have been directly effected by illegal workers in this country.

Ive been doing construction work for nearly 15 years. I started off in Michigan and moved to Las Vegas about 7 years ago. I do concrete construction work. Ive done everything from laborer, finisher, form carpenter and foreman. I was working for a company that I absolutely hated. I finally put in my notice and decided to take a month off from work. The field supervisor at the company and I are good friends. He would NEVER give me a bad referal and we still hang out at least a couple times a month.

After my short vacation I went out looking for another job. I should have had one lined up ahead of time but I have a nice nest egg in the bank and finding another job wasnt a big worry. I started out looking for a concrete finisher job or a foreman job. After about a week of no luck I switched over to "anything". After around 3 weeks of with no luck I lowered my requested $ amount considerably and started submitting applications right from the beginning of the list all over again.

After another 2 or 3 weeks I realized that I wasnt going to get a job in this town. I know for a fact that my friend, the field supervisor, would be giving me a good referance. He told me that he only recieved 2 phone calls about me in the entire 2 months (+/-) that I was putting in applications (150+ applications). Im a clean cut white guy, 35 years old, good physical condition, a nice truck, my own tools, i can read blueprints (and have been for 10 years), i dont drink or smoke or do drugs, Im a nice guy, and there is almost nothing in concrete construction that I cant do and havent done.

I came to the conclusion that the problem was, Im a white guy that doesnt speak spanish. These construction companies are all made up of 50%+ mexican guys that dont speak a word of english. Then theres 25% that speak broken english and another 20% that speak spanish and english, then theres the 5% black and white guys that either speak english only or both english and spanish. The guys get hired, work their way up to foreman or some other management position and they dont want to hire a non-spanish speaking white guy.

All of these guys make good money in this town. From the low/mid-teens (laborer wages) to the $30+ range. These guys arent paid pennies on the dollar, they are paid regular (MAYBE a bit less) construction wages. And 90% of them have social security cards, driver licenses, etc... Ive been told many times that getting a social security number/card isnt hard, and most of the illegal construction workers have one.

So, my feeling about this is that these politicians that say "illegal immagrants that do jobs americans dont want" is rediculous. They may be jobs that their rich, cadilac driving, $1k suit wearing friends and kids dont want but they are jobs that alot of us would LOVE to have. All of these manufacturing jobs that have been lost, automobile and whatnot, where are those people going to find jobs? What about all of us that DONT have a college education? What about the kids fresh out of high-school that arent going to college? What about all the unemployed homeless people on the streets of Las Vegas? What about all the kids starting kindergarden that dont speak a word of english?

In my opinion these politicians live so far above lower/middle class that they dont even know about the real problems from illegal immagrants. "The jobs that americans dont want" are few and far between. In fact I dont even know what one of those jobs would be?

This isnt just a Las Vegas problem either. This is every southern state and quickly making its way north its way north. California, Texas, Arizona, Florida, etc... Go to any construction site and see how many mexican guys there are. Then count how many of them speak english, then (I dont know if this is possible) do a background check and see how many of them are here legally. Its a terrible thing thats happening and from what Ive heard on the news from both Republicans and Democrats its no

DREAMTROVE

Monday, March 27, 2006 12:11 AM (P)

You make some excellent points here Russell.

BROWNCOAT1

Monday, March 27, 2006 4:25 PM (P)

SignyM,

I want to start out by saying I generally avoid doing more than reading any of the posts in this area. I try not to post my thoughts in political discussions to avoid the running flame wars that normally accompany such topics. I say this so you and everyone else will realize just how serious a problem I think illegal immigration is becoming in the U.S.

I truly that believe that illegal immigration is a serious threat to our economy & our way of life. I agree w/ what Fletch2 said:

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Well a more accurate quote is that they can't hire an American for the amount they are willing to pay. This isn't just a matter of the immigrant working for lower pay, by using undocumented workers employers can cut taxes, social security, insurance and other overheads from the equation that they couldn't legally do with an American.

Businesses are always looking for ways to cut what they spend & boost their profits and one of those ways is to hire illegals. As Fletch said it allows these employers to pay a much lower wage, avoid paying taxes, paying social security, and eliminates benifits & insurance cost as these workers are undocumented illegals. This causes problems in that these are jobs that legal citizens of the U.S. can not get and many of these illegals send a good portion of the money they make back to their families in their country of origin. This of course is bad for our economy as money earned here is not being spent here.

Another issue I draw w/ illegal immigration, specifically from Mexico, is that the Mexican government, especially President Fox, seems to fully support it. They even encouraged the printing & distribution of a comic book that details how to illegally enter the U.S. For Fox & his government it is a win-win situation as they get unemployed workers out of their country so they are no longer the responsibility of the Mexican government, and the Mexican economy benefits from the influx of U.S. dollars sent home to families left behind by these illegal immigrants.

The U.S. government seems content to do nothing to stem the tide of illegals entering from Mexico either. The Minuteman project clearly illustrated for all of us how grossly unprotected our border w/ Mexico truly is today. Border agents patrol a border over 1,600 miles long with a relative handful of agents. In many places there is no wall or fence so it is merely a matter of walking across the border.

Dubya is now working to push his amnesty bill through which will allow all the illegals here to stay. His private meetings w/ Fox at Bush's ranch in Texas just work to assure me that business, the federal government, and the Mexican government are all in this together. All of them will do whatever is necessary to put money in their pockets.

I am not against immigrants coming here. Hell, all of us were immigrants at some point no matter how long our families have been here (unless you are native american of course), but I think they should become legal citizens, pay taxes, contribute to the community and all just as the rest of us do. There should also be a push to learn the english language to communicate w/ others effectively & for their children to interact in school. I don't think it is right that the rest of society should have to conform to their lack of desire to learn the common language. If I move to France to live you can bet I will learn french rather than expect everyone else to conform to me & learn english.

I fully agree w/ what the Minuteman Project did & can only say I am saddened by how Dubya and his cronies responded to the public demand that something be done about our borders. He claims he wants to protect us from terrorists & is sending American soldiers off to die in foreign lands, yet he leaves our entire southern border completely exposed. That seem right to you?

I look forward to everyone's comments.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong

CHRISISALL

Monday, March 27, 2006 4:45 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
I am saddened by how Dubya and his cronies responded to the public demand that something be done about our borders. He claims he wants to protect us from terrorists & is sending American soldiers off to die in foreign lands, yet he leaves our entire southern border completely exposed.

Ah-ha! Another left-wing commie out to bash Bush and condem his perfect plans for this great country. If you can't see how Dubya's helping this land, why not move to another? *smirk*

Okay. Ya got me...
Ithought it would be more interesting than...Ummm, I agree.

But someone will say it for real, I'm sure Chrisisall

KUANGZHEDE

Monday, March 27, 2006 5:19 PM (P)

I live in Charlotte N.C., and here are a few issues I have with illegal immigration here.

1- Free healthcare
2- Free school
3- License without proof of citizenship
4- Can not be prosecuted for any crime unless it is "violent"
5- 2 INS agents for both NC and SC.
6- If arrested, they are let go and asked to please go to Atlanta for their INS hearing (no one goes)
7- 5 out of the 10 drunk driving murders this year, so far, have been by illegal immigrants.

PIRATEJENNY

Monday, March 27, 2006 7:50 PM (P)

Quote:
(unless you are native american of course), but I think they should become legal citizens, pay taxes, contribute to the community and all just as the rest of us do. There should also be a push to learn the english language to communicate w/ others effectively & for their children to interact in school.

I agree with everything all of you have said, I have an international studies class and the main focus this semester has been about the border, I'm going to take all of you guys post and make copies for the class to read.

I sympathize with the immigrants I understand that they want a better life, but on the other hand why should it be at our expense. The facts are the corporations don't want them here llegally, because then they would have to pay a higher wage, taxes, healthcare etc. illegal workers benifit the Corporations and businesses, while driving wages down for U.S workers and its putting a squeeze on the middle class, I'm also tired of the argument that, Americans don't want to do the jobs that illegal immigrants to, if they paid a fair wage Americans would do just about any job for the right price.

SIGNYM

Monday, March 27, 2006 8:05 PM (P)

Browncoat1, I need to ask: Do you (or did you) belong to a union?

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

KUANGZHEDE

Monday, March 27, 2006 9:25 PM (P)

In regards to corporations:

GE and Bank of America do not employ any illegal immigrants. The real problem is with small businesses trying to curtail the cost of well...cost. Sorry if this burst any "Leftist" conspiracy about corperations being all corperty.

SIGNYM

Monday, March 27, 2006 10:14 PM (P)

Oh, you must not be thinking of Walmart, or of all those subcontracted janitorial, clothes mfr, security, "stoop" labor, and assembly services that the big corporations use to wash their hands of the illgal problem ... while still taking advantage of the lower cost.

You would think that even something like a refinery would be a little pickier about their plant operations and keep experience staff. Nah....

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

RUE

Tuesday, March 28, 2006 4:05 AM (P)

You won't see Bush & Co doing anything about illegal immigration other than whitewashing it into legality. Business stands to loose too much profit doing business the legal way. That's b/c it's not 'the government AND business' taking advantage; it's 'the government IS business' taking advantage.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

MANOFWAR

Tuesday, March 28, 2006 5:49 AM (P)

My post is about immigration, in general. Here's what I think.

Illegal Immigration:
-------------------
1) The size of the 500,000 person protest in L.A. itself demonstrates the problem. There are so many illegals, and they face so little threat of deportation, that they have political clout. They actually protest infront of Congress. This is frightening. Foreigners should not have political influence on our policies & laws.

2) Over the years I've noticed from my reading that illegals around the U.S. make $8-10/hr. In fact, this week or last, Business Week mag. had an article on illegals working at a carpet factory in Georgia, where they make $7/hr. The U.S. Census Bureau calculates the poverty level for a family of 4 to be about $19k/yr., which is just under $10/hr for a 40 hour week. This says, an American who wants to compete for these jobs has to put his family into poverty. For comparison, when I was in high school over 20 years I had a part time job making $7/hr. It is therefore not true there are no Americans who want these jobs - they just can't afford them.

Legal Immigration:
-----------------
1) U.S. population growth is driven by immigration, both legal & illegal. The U.S. will have a population of 400 million by 2050, and 1 billion by 2100, unless immigration is greatly reduced. Just look at China & India for reasons this is bad, not to mention the growing competition for oil made worse by a growing population. At the time of the first Earth Day in 1970, the U.S. had reached replacement fertility - 2.1 children/family. Since then, immigrants from poor countries have caused our fertility rate to grow.

2) Water supplies in the U.S. are depleting, due to growing demand, caused by a growing population. Battles between western cities like Las Vegas, L.A., and Phoenix are escalating. Farmers are having a harder time each year pumping water for irrigation. As a result, the U.S. will soon become a net food importing country, which puts us at risk of political pressure.

3) Legal immigrants to the U.S. working in technology under the H1-B visa program are pushing wages down - simple market supply & demand. The number has varied each year, but has averaged about 100,000/yr, and they get to stay for 6 years. Most get a green card and stay forever. This has the same effect as outsourcing, putting Americans out of work. Wage data from the Dept. of Labor shows wages have not risen for 20 years, suggesting industry claims of a shortage of engineers is not true.

'just my thoughts.
MoW

BROWNCOAT1

Tuesday, March 28, 2006 5:28 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by KuangZheDe:
I live in Charlotte N.C., and here are a few issues I have with illegal immigration here.

1- Free healthcare
2- Free school
3- License without proof of citizenship
4- Can not be prosecuted for any crime unless it is "violent"
5- 2 INS agents for both NC and SC.
6- If arrested, they are let go and asked to please go to Atlanta for their INS hearing (no one goes)
7- 5 out of the 10 drunk driving murders this year, so far, have been by illegal immigrants.

We have a lot of the same problems here.

- free healthcare

- goverment assistance for living expenses

- free schooling w/ the added bonus that the school has to spring for spanish speaking teachers for every course & our children have been forced to take a mandatory Spanish class

I have not heard about them being free from prosecution on minor offenses, but I will check into Commonwealth laws to see what they say about it.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

BROWNCOAT1

Tuesday, March 28, 2006 5:31 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
I sympathize with the immigrants I understand that they want a better life, but on the other hand why should it be at our expense. The facts are the corporations don't want them here llegally, because then they would have to pay a higher wage, taxes, healthcare etc. illegal workers benifit the Corporations and businesses, while driving wages down for U.S workers and its putting a squeeze on the middle class, I'm also tired of the argument that, Americans don't want to do the jobs that illegal immigrants to, if they paid a fair wage Americans would do just about any job for the right price.

That is the rub.

I can sympathize & appreciate wanting a better life & standard of living for your family, but not at the expense of others. I would never dream of moving into another country illegally and then taking advantage of the system at the taxpayers expense.

Big business being in bed w/ big government only makes matters worse.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

BROWNCOAT1

Tuesday, March 28, 2006 5:32 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Browncoat1, I need to ask: Do you (or did you) belong to a union?

Nope. Why do you ask?

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

BROWNCOAT1

Tuesday, March 28, 2006 5:36 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by KuangZheDe:
In regards to corporations:

GE and Bank of America do not employ any illegal immigrants. The real problem is with small businesses trying to curtail the cost of well...cost. Sorry if this burst any "Leftist" conspiracy about corperations being all corperty.

As Signym pointed out, Wal Mart is the worst about the employing of illegal immigrants. Of course being the weasels they are they are many layers removed from the actual "hiring" of these illegals & whent they are busted they claim ignorance & are not held accountable. There is also the fact that the money they dump into states & the large party they funded for the Bush victory in the last election makes them untouchable by the law for any immigration infractions.

Perhaps you have not heard about the Wal Mart store under construction in Vermont that got shut down because 90% + of the workers on the job site were illegals. Wal Mart claims ignorance so they escape all charges & fines, leaving the construction companies to burn alone.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

BROWNCOAT1

Tuesday, March 28, 2006 5:50 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by manofwar:
My post is about immigration, in general. Here's what I think.

Illegal Immigration:
-------------------
1) The size of the 500,000 person protest in L.A. itself demonstrates the problem. There are so many illegals, and they face so little threat of deportation, that they have political clout. They actually protest infront of Congress. This is frightening. Foreigners should not have political influence on our policies & laws.

What I don't understand is why Immigration didn't descend on this event w/ every agent they had, SWAT, the National Guard, and every police officer they could muster. This was their chance to catch all these illegals that the Federal gov't claims are too "slippery" to catch. Guess hiding in plain sight makes them too slippery.

Oh, wait. That's right. The federals don't care.

Quote:
Originally posted by manofwar:
2) Over the years I've noticed from my reading that illegals around the U.S. make $8-10/hr. In fact, this week or last, Business Week mag. had an article on illegals working at a carpet factory in Georgia, where they make $7/hr. The U.S. Census Bureau calculates the poverty level for a family of 4 to be about $19k/yr., which is just under $10/hr for a 40 hour week. This says, an American who wants to compete for these jobs has to put his family into poverty. For comparison, when I was in high school over 20 years I had a part time job making $7/hr. It is therefore not true there are no Americans who want these jobs - they just can't afford them.

Exactly the point!

I am so tired of the arguement that the jobs illegals take are the "ones Americans don't want". What a load of manure! It is not that we don't want them, it is that they don't pay enough to support our families. I can remember when $20k/year was a lot of money, but these days in Virginia it is below poverty level for a family of four. The county I live in requires a yearly income of nearly $50k/year due to the cost of living in this area. How can Americans do that off of less than $10/hr? A couple would have to work the equivalent of 3 full time jobs to break even.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

HERO

Tuesday, March 28, 2006 7:22 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
What I don't understand is why Immigration didn't descend on this event w/ every agent they had, SWAT, the National Guard, and every police officer they could muster. This was their chance to catch all these illegals that the Federal gov't claims are too "slippery" to catch. Guess hiding in plain sight makes them too slippery.

Oh, wait. That's right. The federals don't care.

Well, this is just speculation...but perhaps they figured that trying to arrest a half-million people all at one time and in the middle of America's largest cities could present a bit more of a problem then anyone could handle and could turn an otherwise mostly peaceful series of protests into full blown riots.

If you get forty illegals in one place, its easy to surround them, arrest them, detain them, process them, and deport them in an efficient manner. If its forty thousand...its a tad more difficult.

H

SIGNYM

Tuesday, March 28, 2006 8:30 PM (P)

A half-million people waving the Mexican flag and chanting "Si se puede" is not going to win over any converts. It tells me that they have mixed loyalities at best.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

MILAGROBEAN

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 3:21 AM (P)

I'm pleased with the vote. Knowing the history of U.S involvement(manipulating of the political process/stomping/murdering/pillaging) in Latin America---really where did any armchair political analyst think the oppressed, the dispossessed, and impoverished would wind up going? Too late for shaking fists now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/28/politics/28immig.html?pagewanted=1&_
r=1

WASHINGTON, March 27 — With Republicans deeply divided, the Senate Judiciary Committee voted on Monday to legalize the nation's 11 million illegal immigrants and ultimately to grant them citizenship, provided that they hold jobs, pass criminal background checks, learn English and pay fines and back taxes.

The panel also voted to create a vast temporary worker program that would allow roughly 400,000 foreigners to come to the United States to work each year and would put them on a path to citizenship as well.

The legislation, which the committee sent to the full Senate on a 12-to-6 vote, represents the most sweeping effort by Congress in decades to grant legal status to illegal immigrants. If passed, it would create the largest guest worker program since the bracero program brought 4.6 million Mexican agricultural workers into the country between 1942 and 1960.

Any legislation that passes the Senate will have to be reconciled with the tough border security bill passed in December by the Republican-controlled House, which defied President Bush's call for a temporary worker plan.

The Senate panel's plan, which also includes provisions to strengthen border security, was quickly hailed by Democrats, a handful of Republicans and business leaders, as well as by the immigrant advocacy organizations and church groups that have sent tens of thousands of supporters of immigrant rights into the streets of a number of cities to push for such legislation in recent days.

But even as hundreds of religious leaders and others rallied on the grounds of the Capitol on Monday, chanting "Let our people stay!," the plan was fiercely attacked by conservative Republicans who called it nothing more than an offer of amnesty for lawbreakers. It remained unclear Monday night whether Senator Bill Frist, the Senate majority leader, would allow the bill to go for a vote this week on the floor or would substitute his own bill, which focuses on border security. His aides have said that Mr. Frist, who has said he wants a vote on immigration this week, would be reluctant to move forward with legislation that did not have the backing of a majority of the Republicans on the committee.

Only 4 of the 10 Republicans on the committee supported the bill. They were the committee chairman, Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, and Senators Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, Mike DeWine of Ohio and Sam Brownback of Kansas. All eight Democrats on the committee voted in favor of the legislation.

The rift among Republicans on the committee reflects the deep divisions in the party as business groups push to legalize their workers and conservatives battle to stem the tide of illegal immigration. Mr. Specter acknowledged the difficulties ahead, saying, "We are making the best of a difficult situation." But he said he believed that the legislation would ultimately pass the Senate and would encourage the millions of illegal immigrants to come out of the shadows.

"We do not want to create a fugitive class in America," Mr. Specter said after the vote. "We do not want to create an underclass in America."

"I think this represents a reasonable accommodation," he said, referring to the divergent views on the panel. "It's not a majority of the majority, but it's a good number."

Scott McClellan, the White House spokesman, said Monday night that President Bush was "pleased to see the Senate moving forward on legislation." Mr. Bush has repeatedly called for a temporary worker program that would legalize the nation's illegal immigrants, though he has said such a plan must not include amnesty.

"It is a difficult issue that will require compromise and tough ch

PIRATEJENNY

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 3:27 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
I sympathize with the immigrants I understand that they want a better life, but on the other hand why should it be at our expense. The facts are the corporations don't want them here llegally, because then they would have to pay a higher wage, taxes, healthcare etc. illegal workers benifit the Corporations and businesses, while driving wages down for U.S workers and its putting a squeeze on the middle class, I'm also tired of the argument that, Americans don't want to do the jobs that illegal immigrants to, if they paid a fair wage Americans would do just about any job for the right price.

That is the rub.

I can sympathize & appreciate wanting a better life & standard of living for your family, but not at the expense of others. I would never dream of moving into another country illegally and then taking advantage of the system at the taxpayers expense.

Big business being in bed w/ big government only makes matters worse.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

I agree while I do sympathize I don't do it at my own exspense either and I to would never dream of coming to another country illegally, but on the other hand I don't come from a third world country like Mexico, the down side is the U.S is endanger of becoming like a third world country

MILAGROBEAN

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 3:45 AM (P)

Republican Split on Immigration Reflects Nation's Struggle http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/29/national/29policy.html?pagewanted=2

There does seem to be a precedent in the US--when the chips are down, blame the immigrants! My guess-- this is the first world power military occupations thru the centuries karma blues.

milagrobean

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 3:50 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
the down side is the U.S is endanger of becoming like a third world country

Darlin', that is gonna happen regardless. It's in the wacky rich interests that it does. Cheaper labour, more consumers, more potential soldiers...etc.

Chrisisallmovin'toAustrailia(as an illegal)

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 3:57 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by milagrobean:
this is the first world power military occupations thru the centuries karma blues.

I must agree; Blow up the Japanese cities- the come here and buy our companies. Kill thousands and thousands of Central Americans- they move here. Lay mines in Vietnam- Vietnamese look for education and jobs here. Attack the Middle East- they control our Seven-Elevens....

Chrisisall

PIRATEJENNY

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:47 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
the down side is the U.S is endanger of becoming like a third world country
Darlin', that is gonna happen regardless. It's in the wacky rich interests that it does. Cheaper labour, more consumers, more potential soldiers...etc.

Chrisisallmovin'toAustrailia(as an illegal)

YES YES YES!!! Chrisisal you hit the nail on the head.

I was just saying to a friend of mine, what happens when people don't have a job and can't get work? they have two choices, turn to crime or join the military, They meaning the elitist who really run things are purposely creating this economic downfall to fuel more fodder for these on going wars, or better yet the prison system where slave labor is supreme!!

I'm seriously considering moving to Canada, legally of course but I get the ugly feeling that all this global, you know that saying you can run but you can't hide!!

JONUS

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 1:41 PM (P)

I think everyone (excluding felons) has the right to live wherever they choose if it will better their life. I just don't think the government should be able to say "This person can live here, but that person can't." We have rapists and child molesters living in our neighborhoods but someone from Mexico can't? The government just wants to keep out any foreigners.

RIGHTEOUS9

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 4:18 PM (P)

This is just a general addition to the thread.

There's a danger in scapegoating. I wish everybody would try harder to make the distinction between being anti illegal-immigration and anti illegal-immigrant.

Hopefully, most people aren't thinking of them as one in the same. Hopefully they aren't hating the victims of a situation that is hardly desirable. If these people stay in their country, they starve. When they come here they have no rights, no protections, and poor wages. How easy could it be to leave your home and risk death to cross the border? They aren't doing it for kicks, and the ones I know...love America.

That said, illegal immigration is a problem. A big one. But as a couple of threads have already mentioned, its a problem that is benefitting businesses who so far, are not being pushed hard enough to stop hiring illegally.

If you stop the jobs, you stop the immigration. That's so much smarter than trying to wall off that whole border, or than making criminals out of people who try to help these immigrants in humanitarian ways(which, I believe was recenlty part of a Republican bill). How about this. Make criminals out of the people who are enticing the migration.

They are the ones bringing in the flood of desperate people, while slowly but surely making our own citizens more desperate.

If the lawmakers wanted to do something about this, they would enforce the businesses. They don't, and they won't. Instead, they'll pass some amnesty law(finally gutted of any good legislation) that will allow companies to continue to use immigrants, without affording them any true rights, or protections against business exploitation -- again, hurting the rest of us, by making it more desirable to hire immigrants. At the same time they'll continue to foster anti-immigrant sentiment by talking about needing to secure the borders against terrorists(forget the ports), or talking about the children of illegals getting free education...etc.

If we really care about this issue, then we should focus on the source of the problem. It's the money, not the people. The American Government and the Mexican government are most definitely on the same page with this one. The corporate lobbyists in washington are getting returns on their investment by not being legislated against, and Mexico is bringing in American dollars. We're the only ones losing.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 4:58 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:

How easy could it be to leave your home and risk death to cross the border? They aren't doing it for kicks, and the ones I know...love America.

Thanks for focusing on the human aspect, Righteous9.

Chrisisall, recent Earth immigrant

BROWNCOAT1

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:04 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Well, this is just speculation...but perhaps they figured that trying to arrest a half-million people all at one time and in the middle of America's largest cities could present a bit more of a problem then anyone could handle and could turn an otherwise mostly peaceful series of protests into full blown riots.

If you get forty illegals in one place, its easy to surround them, arrest them, detain them, process them, and deport them in an efficient manner. If its forty thousand...its a tad more difficult.

I understand why they didn't do it, riots & all that, but do you think Immigration or the federals did anything at all to track these illegals at the end of the march, question any, photograph them, get plate #s, anything? We all know they didn't. Bush is too interested in securing minority votes for the Republican party so he won't risk upsetting Latinos, illegal or otherwise.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

HERO

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:10 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:

I agree while I do sympathize I don't do it at my own exspense either and I to would never dream of coming to another country illegally, but on the other hand I don't come from a third world country like Mexico, the down side is the U.S is endanger of becoming like a third world country

Wow. You keep with this sensible talk and you'll have to change your name...'HeroJenny'.

H

BROWNCOAT1

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:11 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
A half-million people waving the Mexican flag and chanting "Si se puede" is not going to win over any converts. It tells me that they have mixed loyalities at best.

Mixed loyalties? The majority give their loyalty to Mexico, not America.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

HERO

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:19 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
what happens when people don't have a job and can't get work? they have two choices, turn to crime or join the military,

Your coming along, but true conservatism requires imagination. I'll help you get started:

1. Turn to crime
2. Join the military.
3. Start a business.
4. Get an education.
5. Run for office.
6. Start a community service organization.
7. Become an activist.
8. Give up and die.
9. Live off the largess of others (including the government.
10. Keep trying, tomorrow will be better.

I'm sure you can come up with other ideas. Opportunity doesn't come to you...your supposed to find it. Look at me. College dropout with a dead-end secuirty job wasn't good enough, so I went back to school, then lawschool, now I get paid to put people in jail...I mean give valuable service to the community I love. I used option number '10'.

H

HERO

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:23 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
but do you think Immigration or the federals did anything at all to track these illegals at the end of the march, question any, photograph them, get plate #s, anything? We all know they didn't.

Some did, some did not. LA is getting a crapload of grief for issuing citations to persons photograghed at the demonstration. Also Latino radio and tv networks are under scuitiny for having orchestrated all this over the last month or so (although they did an excellent job).

H

PHAEDRA

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:46 PM (P)

I would like to thank Milagrobean, Jonus and Righteous9 for their additions to this thread. I've been watching this thread for the past two days with a growing sense of concern. Now just because we all enjoy the same show does not mean that we have to think the same way, but the discussion was a bit onesided. Takeaway the hispanic and substatute Irish, Chinese, or Jewish and we've seen these argumnets before and they're rarely pretty.

For the record I live in LA. I'm african-american and one of them fancy lawyers (so I come at this thread from a position of admitted privilege, I'd give a vital body part to see more people of chicano/latin heritage at my job). I was heading into the office on Saturday and got caught in the waves of people crammed into the metro. Asking around I learned that they were going to march. Later on I ditched out and joined them. Now granted I couldn't understand what many people were saying (languages hard) but I did understand the sentiment.

For me the marches represent what democracy should look and sound like. A group of people (citizen or not) mobilizing peacefully for their rights. Regardless of how one may feel about immigration, 500,000 marchers at one time sends a powerful message. The people who marched are our neighbors, coworkers, friends and fellow Americans. They deserve respect.

Phaedra (a bad luck name)

HERO

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:12 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Phaedra:
For me the marches represent what democracy should look and sound like. A group of people (citizen or not) mobilizing peacefully for their rights. Regardless of how one may feel about immigration, 500,000 marchers at one time sends a powerful message. The people who marched are our neighbors, coworkers, friends and fellow Americans. They deserve respect.

Back in school the bigger kids, popular kids, the self-appointed privilaged kids tended to jump the lunch line. They made lots of noise, really stood out. Nobody heard from the smaller kids, the freshman, or the meek. They just stood in line and took it.

It was wrong then and its wrong now. I suppose if the millions waiting for legal immigration had worldwide protests, then they'd deserve your consideration. Until then, they do not exist.

I have always thought the laws should be there to protect the people waiting in line, not the ones jumping ahead.

If an illegal immigrant marches in a protest, they should be arrested and sent home. If they want a drivers license, sure come on down to the BMV and get arrested and sent home. If they show up at a public school or health clinic, arrest them, send them home. Logistics is the reason we don't do these things...but that don't make it right.

For the record, I think some form of guest worker program combined with strict enforcement (with harsh penalities for employers) and a temporary military presense on the Mexican border is the best solution. We can't move all the bad kids to the back of the line, but we oughta stop their buddies from joining them.

H

MILAGROBEAN

Thursday, March 30, 2006 12:18 AM (P)

Hero:"Back in school the bigger kids, popular kids, the self-appointed privilaged kids tended to jump the lunch line. They made lots of noise, really stood out. Nobody heard from the smaller kids, the freshman, or the meek. They just stood in line and took it."

That's just a ridiculous comparison. Protest marches for civil rights, womens' rights, workers' rights (like the one this week in France)are all about bullies yelling? Peaceful protests are not illegal. Illegal immigrants are not criminals---that piece of legislation wasn't passed this time around.

Phaedra, thanks for your post, the tone of the thread was a concern to me too. Good to hear from someone who was there and open to what was going on.

milagrobean

FLETCH2

Thursday, March 30, 2006 12:35 AM (P)

I believe Hero's point is that there are people that follow the rules and wait for years to legally enter the country. People that spend a considerable amount of time, money and frustration to come here and are being told that following the rules makes them losers, that if you break the law you can go to the head of the line.

I'm Anglo, and was married to an American eight years before we chose to come here. I was garenteed a visa, so I didn't have to wait for a lottery allocation. Still it took 4 months and probably $1000 in assorted costs to be allowed to come here with the transitional stamp in my passport. It took another year of charges and queuing to get a physical green card.

Like I said I had it easy but there are some people that spend thousands and wait years because they follow the rules. They are not out on the streets in LA because they are still in their country of origin gathering all the paperwork, medical reports, criminal background checks and other things the illegals never bothered with.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, March 30, 2006 1:05 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Nobody heard from the smaller kids, the freshman, or the meek. They just stood in line and took it.

H

Speak for yourself. I studied Okinawan Kempo, and faced those jerks down, beat on a few when I had to.
But this isn't about bullies, it's about peeps looking to live. Maybe eat sometime this month. Maybe escape the poverty forced on them by this world.
If you, yourself, had ever been in a position of having to do something illegal to feed youself or your family, I might even take some of what you have to say on this matter seriously.
Attack the money-men, and the reasons for our failing economy, not the poor.

Oh. That's right. We can't do that.
Okay, let's pick on the weak, that's easier.

Uh-oh. Hero brings out the 'L' in Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Thursday, March 30, 2006 1:13 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
I believe Hero's point is that there are people that follow the rules and wait for years to legally enter the country.

Fletch, the difference is those people like yourself can afford to wait, and aren't starving. You had a choice, others feel they have none- go to where you CAN work, or lose your family.

(Not sayin' let EVERYBODY in- just tryin' to see it from a perspective other than my own)

Bored rich liberal white guy Chrisisall

FLETCH2

Thursday, March 30, 2006 1:31 AM (P)

*I* could afford to wait, there are others in desperate situations that can't but have to follow the rules because geography hasn't given them a common border with the US.

It's true there are people that steal because they are starving, but then there are people that would steal just because they can and others that won't steal even if they were starving. Who is more worthy of reward, the person that follows the rules even if it hurts him or the one that ignores those that are inconvenient.

I am sure there are folks waiting in subsaharan Africa for a green card allocation that are just as hungry and as desperate as anyone you could find in Mexico. I'm sure the Coyotes, the folks that make a very profitable business smuggling people are not cruising the alleys of Mexico city looking for folks that are needy. They take the ones that can pay, so I somehow doubt these folks are starving.

ANTHONYT

Thursday, March 30, 2006 2:17 AM (P)

When my grandparents came over to the US from Cuba, my parents were of elementary school/junior-high school age.

In order to immigrate, My grandfathers had to prove that they had a basic understanding of English, show that they had 1,000 dollars in a US bank, and have a job waiting for them. I hesitate to imagine what 1,000 dollars back then (50's) equates to now. I know my grandfathers had to borrow a lot of money from friends and family to get that sum together.

Castro wasn't running Cuba at the time. My grandparents weren't fleeing the government or anything. They had jobs and houses in Cuba. (My mother's father worked for the Nicaro Nickel Company, a US mining corp in Cuba.) But they wanted to be Americans. They considered the United States to be the best place on Earth, and were prepared to sacrifice to be a part of it. They encouraged their children to learn English, and to love their new country.

After my grandparents immigrated, my Dad had a severe eye injury. He was flown to Cuba for surgery. (If you can believe it, the best eye hospital around was in Cuba at the time.) While he was there, he saw these odd mountain men with scraggly beards and .45's. He heard an officer on the radio talk about how people had been arrested as traitors to Castro, but once Castro heard about it, he was sure it'd be taken care of. Then he heard that same officer shoot himself on the air when news came in that Castro had confirmed condemnation of the man as a traitor.

My Dad was sworn in as a citizen the day Kennedy was assasinated. They announced it right before everyone was sworn in. He was sure it was a loyalty test. When he found out it was true, he was shattered. Totally shattered. It was like being told that God died. Well, maybe not quite, but close. The US president was held in reverence by many Americans at the time. Not so much anymore.

My Dad volounteered to join the Air Force when Vietnam was rolling. (Better than the infantry, he figured.) He was denied due to an eye injury. He was also interrogated for two months, and made to take several lie detector tests. (Being of Cuban descent was considered a bad thing at the time, due to the Commie taint.) He didn't complain. He holds no real ill will about it, but will share his experiences as a humorous anecdote.

I was taught as a lad to love my government and to fear the coming Third World War, a Nuclear Holocaust with Russia and Communism as the villain. We were all awfully surprised when the Soviet Union collapsed. Movies from the year before had become obsolete. Now Hollywood had to find new bogeymen for their films. The Hunt for Red October suffered from this. Rambo III is just ironic now. Sneakers came out just after the collapse, and makes mention of the 'changes in Russia.'

Things are different now. You've maybe heard that most major cities have a Chinatown. A massive concentration of chinese citizens in a section of the city that resembles Hong Kong, with chinese signs and chinese language everywhere. I grew up in Hialeah, next to Miami, Florida. We had Little Havana, and it's overflowing into many parts of Miami-Dade county. Miles of Billboards and shop signs in Spanish. It's like being in another country.

People aren't coming to the U.S. from Cuba because they want to be 'Americans.' They just don't want to be in an oppressive environment. Fine. I wouldn't want to live in Cuba either. Or Mexico, for that matter. But the mindset has changed. It's not "I want to be an American" anymore. It's "I want to get what I can get." The sense that you owe something to the U.S. for the wonderful gifts it gives you has somehow been lost. Immigrants don't seem to be as grateful, on the average, as my grandparents were. It's gone from "Thank God for the United States" and "What Can I Do To Serve My Country" to "Where's my Benefits?" and "What Can You Do To Serve Me?"

And that's the kind of attitude, I think, that builds resentment in the indiginous popula

PIRATENEWS

Thursday, March 30, 2006 3:19 AM (P)

REAVER RED DAWN - FOR REAL

Illiterate Mexicans need geography lessons
www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49482

Quote:
HERO wrote:

If an illegal immigrant marches in a protest, they should be arrested and sent home. If they want a drivers license, sure come on down to the BMV and get arrested and sent home. If they show up at a public school or health clinic, arrest them, send them home. Logistics is the reason we don't do these things...but that don't make it right.

So THAT'S why they call him Hero. It's ok if he plagerized my previous argument over his prosecutions of speeding tickets vs US citizens, while ignoring 40-million criminal aliens. Criminal aliens can't get traffic tickets, since courts lack subject matter jurisdiction without a voluntary driver license contract. That's why traffic citations include a section for the driver license number, which is an "essential element" of the victimless non-crime. That's why Tennessee govt sold 250,000 "driver certificates" to ILLEGAL aliens, to cash in on this fact of law. Copsters also love shaking down illegal aliens to steal all their cash and drugs, knowing the illiterate wetbacks will (almost) never file criminal charges. Some US sheriffs are now arresting ILLEGAL aliens for "criminal trespass", regardless of whether the feds deport them or not.

Quote:
"A few weeks ago, one of Chamberlain's officers came upon Jorge Mora Ramirez, who was making a phone call from his car. Questioned by the officer, Ramirez, a 21-year-old who is Mexican, admitted he was in the country illegally, Chamberlain said. The chief called Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers, but they declined to send someone over to pick up Ramirez. Chamberlain applied the only state statute he could think of. 'My position was: If Mr. Ramirez was in the country illegally, he was obviously in the town of New Ipswich illegally,' Chamberlain said. Police officers around the country have told Chamberlain that they plan to follow his example. Last week, Richard E. Gendron, the police chief in Hudson, N.H., cited two undocumented men for trespassing and said he intends to keep doing it."
-"How to arrest an illegal alien - N.H. Police Chief's Tactics Stira Storm on Immigration"
http://danielisright.blogspot.com/2005_05_01_danielisright_archive.htm
l

Attorney General Opinion 2000-1:
"There is substantial support for the position that the Penal Law and the Criminal Procedure Law, although explicitly referring only to state and local crimes, do not exclude federal crimes from the scope of authority granted to police officers and others to make warrantless arrests. New York State law enforcement officials may make arrests without warrants for criminal violations of the federal Immigration and Nationality Act. However, mere status as an alien, or even as an illegal alien, may only be a civil violation of the Act and thus would not be a sufficient basis for an arrest. For a valid arrest, the officer must have probable cause to believe that the person has committed a criminal violation of the INA, such as illegal entry into the United States, and not merely a civil violation, such as illegal presence in the country."
-Robert J. Cimino, County Attorney, County of Suffolk, Hauppauge, NY, March 21, 2000
www.oag.state.ny.us/lawyers/opinions/2000/informal/2000_1.html

Tennessee Code §40-7-109. Arrest by private person - Grounds.
(a) A private person may arrest another:
(1) For a public offense committed in the arresting person's presence;
(2) When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in the arresting person's presence; or
(3) When a felony has been committed, and the arresting person has reasonable cause to believe that the person arrested committed it.
www.megalaw.com/tn/tncode.php

citizen's arrest.
: an arrest made not by a law officer but by any citizen who derives the authority to arrest from the fact of being a citizen
Note: Under common law, a citizen may make an arrest for any

PIRATEJENNY

Thursday, March 30, 2006 6:24 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Phaedra:
I would like to thank Milagrobean, Jonus and Righteous9 for their additions to this thread. I've been watching this thread for the past two days with a growing sense of concern. Now just because we all enjoy the same show does not mean that we have to think the same way, but the discussion was a bit onesided. Takeaway the hispanic and substatute Irish, Chinese, or Jewish and we've seen these argumnets before and they're rarely pretty.

For the record I live in LA. I'm african-american and one of them fancy lawyers (so I come at this thread from a position of admitted privilege, I'd give a vital body part to see more people of chicano/latin heritage at my job). I was heading into the office on Saturday and got caught in the waves of people crammed into the metro. Asking around I learned that they were going to march. Later on I ditched out and joined them. Now granted I couldn't understand what many people were saying (languages hard) but I did understand the sentiment.

For me the marches represent what democracy should look and sound like. A group of people (citizen or not) mobilizing peacefully for their rights. Regardless of how one may feel about immigration, 500,000 marchers at one time sends a powerful message. The people who marched are our neighbors, coworkers, friends and fellow Americans. They deserve respect.

Phaedra (a bad luck name)

I'm not against immigration, but I am against illegal immigration, 500,000 people might send a powerful message if most of those people could vote, but since they are illegal they can't as you can see I highlighted illegal, I'm all for people standing up for their rights and democracy, but maybe 500,000 of those people should all go to Mexico and protest the conditions and their rights in their own country and try to make it better for them to live in so that they don't have to come here to get work, lets face it Mexico is a country rich in natural resources just as the United States is, but they've always been third world. Maybe the people their should stand up for their own country and make it a livable place.

I completely understand the desire to make a better life and I don't begrude anybody that, but I'm not going to screw myself in order to do it, I'm just going to be honest about it.

The fact of the matter is, we have our own government and Businesses outsourcing jobs, the compettion for decent jobs in this country is tough and its only going to get tougher, now days a college education is no garuntee for employment, We have illegals coming into the country taking away jobs that I know Americans wouldn't mind having, I currently work at WHOLE FOODS MARKET while I go to school, and I know for a fact that two illegal aliens work there doing janitorial work, now you tell me that No U.S citizens wouldn't Mind having that job, because I know they would.

I went into a Carl's Jr the other day and the guy at the counter had to translate my order to the girl who was preparing the order because she didn't speak any english.

At school the other day I was looking at the job Bulletin board, because I really would like to find another job, they had a job for a customer Rep at a major untilty company in our area, but they wanted someone who was bilingal in spanish. I could apply for that job but I probably won't even be considered because I don't speak spanish, although I have years of customer service experience and Computer skills and I'm more then qualified for the job.

Another argument I hear is that illegals are good for Business, but thats all they are good for; I would rather businesses hire U.S citizens who need jobs and pay them a fair and decent wage, even if I have to pay more for goods and services. America is a gluttonious country, we buy cheap stuff that many of us don't even need, and we buy in exess, no other country consumes the way we do, I would rather pay a higher price for things it wouldn't matter so long as our wages was up to keep up with inflation.

These Busin

RIGHTEOUS9

Thursday, March 30, 2006 6:41 AM (P)

Fletch,

now you're associating illegal immigrants with thieves.
They aren't coming here to steal...they are coming here to work...sometimes 2, 3, jobs.

You're going to attack people with little education and genuine need for not going through the proper channels? They aren't the ones creating the loopholes...they're the ones who are hungry, with families that they want to shelter, just like us. Where the hell is our empathy?

Seriously. It's been said time and time again on this thread, but all of you who have this axe to grind with the victims of poverty rather than the orchestrators of it, keep ducking the real problem every time...

So why has nobody with this hyper-anger at immigrants conceded, even begrudgingly, that the Corporate Lobbies are the perpetrators of this entire situation? Could one of you please respond to this question? Why don't you see the connection? People will go where there's money. Why haven't we stopped the source of that money?

Why don't you care whether that source is stopped? Why even play around with any other half-baked notion of stopping immigration?

I mean, come on...the immigrants are the bullies? 2 + 2 must also = 5 at this point.

Phaedra's involvement in that march also leads me to believe that not everybody in the crowds were illegals, but also sympathizers and family and friends of them.

Also, arresting illegal immigrants from a rally would do what kind of good exactly? It's as ludicrous as the drug war. If you don't decrease the demand you won't decrease the trade, plain and simple.

FLETCH2

Thursday, March 30, 2006 9:07 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
Fletch,

now you're associating illegal immigrants with thieves.
They aren't coming here to steal...they are coming here to work...sometimes 2, 3, jobs.

Actually I was rebuffing two ideas.

1) Desperate starving people break the law to survive and that somehow gives them a moral loophole not possessed by other people that break similar laws. A good example is someone who is starving who steals so they can eat. I was pointing out that there are also people that wouldn't steal even if that meant going hungry, and rich people that steal even when they don't need to.
There are equally desperate people all around the world sometimes waiting years to get a green card allocation. Are they less deserving? Should those that break the rules be rewarded over equally needy people who followed the rules?
Your opinion please.

2) These are starving people. In many cases they are not, they are economic refugees who can make a better life for themselves here than in Mexico. I'm told it costs between $800 and $2500 per person to pay a people smuggler to get you across the border. I know American families without $800 a head in savings. I don't begrudge them the chance at a better life, but if you want to save the starving masses, look at Africa and the far east and take more legal immigrants from there.

Quote:

You're going to attack people with little education and genuine need for not going through the proper channels? They aren't the ones creating the loopholes...they're the ones who are hungry, with families that they want to shelter, just like us. Where the hell is our empathy?

I've stood in line with people, I've watched them wait in queues for hours to see the right official with the dream of coming to this country. Some of these people have waited for years, families have been divided because once you start an application you can't legally visit the US because they are afraid once you're here you'll just disappear. Where's your empathy for them? You don't have any right? They are just the suckers so stupid they played by the rules.

Quote:

Seriously. It's been said time and time again on this thread, but all of you who have this axe to grind with the victims of poverty rather than the orchestrators of it, keep ducking the real problem every time...

Absolutely, the problem is lack of opertunity for people in Mexico. I have a great idea, why don't you take some of your hard earned Gingo dollars and support some charity initatives down there, help those poor starving types at source? I see, that would cost you money when bitching is free.

Oh hey.

RIGHTEOUS9

Thursday, March 30, 2006 10:34 AM (P)

My post was probably a little overboard, and not all directed at you.

Fair enough. It's a blanket statement to say the mexican's coming here are starving. But they are impoverished...the infrastructure in Mexico isn't very good, opportunities to work after reaching a fairly young advanced age, dissapear (I've heard). So what about the future they have once they can no longer find the work they are finding today?

We all look out for ourselves, and our own families. In my opinion, that's neither culpable, nor particularly honorable. Some of us try to find some sort of balance, like contributing to causes(I send money to political causes because I feel like people running the show have the most opportunity(if not the desire) to change things in big ways), and I avoid shopping at Wal-Mart even when I'm dirt broke...

but I still drive a car that pollutes, I still work for a company that hires illegal aliens, which I pay with my tip money. It's hard to be totally apart from the machine...

Which is why I excuse us Americans in the many ways we are doing damage to our world and its peoples...its part ignorance, part a sense of helplessness, part a sense of personal need that directly contradicts those matters of grander import.

It's human nature to be self-referential, and its the nature of capitalism to be self-serving. I think its an unfair lack of context to single out illegal immigrants and say that THEY are the ones who aren't thinking about their neighbors...THEY are the ones not thinking about others in need, when they come to pursue things that would benefit them. We aint so different.

Also, I do care about legal immigrants. Should I repeat one more time to you the answer to who's making it harder for them to get expedited? Yeah, the corporation's who keep hiring illegals...thereby flooding us with illegals. Still no comment on that though?

CHRISISALL

Thursday, March 30, 2006 1:24 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:

2) These are starving people. In many cases they are not, they are economic refugees who can make a better life for themselves here than in Mexico. I'm told it costs between $800 and $2500 per person to pay a people smuggler to get you across the border. I know American families without $800 a head in savings.

Point taken, Fletch. These are not the folks I empathize with, it's the ones who walk all the way here I feel for.

Walkin' dude Chrisisall

HERO

Thursday, March 30, 2006 4:46 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Criminal aliens can't get traffic tickets, since courts lack subject matter jurisdiction without a voluntary driver license contract. That's why traffic citations include a section for the driver license number, which is an "essential element" of the victimless non-crime.

I don't know about Tennessee which you cited extensively, but it aint so in Ohio, where I practice.

For one thing, if an illegal alien is arrested for any offense, they are sent to Immigration for deportation. If a legal alien is convicted of a serious crime, they are sent to Immigration for deportation.

As for the driver's license. ORC 4507.02, Operating a Motor Vehicle w/o a valid license. The penalties are harsher for those who never had a license vs. those whose licenses are simply expired.

I just convicted a nice fellow of that, even though he claimed residency in another country and had an International Driving Permit. Despite sounding all impressive, an International Driving Permit is not a driver's license...US law requires that a person have a valid license from their country of origin in addition to the IDP. Ohio law requires all residents to obtain an Ohio Driver's license and all non-residents to have a valid license in the place they are from. This case even went to the Appeals Court, but the fellow was pro-se (actually I suspect his Freeman father was behind the whole episode) and they didn't obey the court's rules of procedure and the appeal was summarily denied. I ought to give them you e-mail address. You guys would get along great, crazytalk don't sound so crazy when there are two of you.

There are 12 million illegal aliens in this country. How the hell am I, a lone prosecutor in Ohio, going to satisfy PN? I guess I could buy a big net. I think PN just wants to have a free pass for his drinking and driving (from a prior argument) by advocating we ignore local traffic and safety laws and only enforce only the rules he wants against the people he wants.

H

CHRISISALL

Thursday, March 30, 2006 4:53 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:

It's hard to be totally apart from the machine...

We don't free the mind, once it reaches a certain age...

Blue pill Chrisisall

PIRATEJENNY

Friday, March 31, 2006 6:26 AM (P)

Quote:
Fair enough. It's a blanket statement to say the mexican's coming here are starving. But they are impoverished...the infrastructure in Mexico isn't very good, opportunities to work after reaching a fairly young advanced age, dissapear (I've heard). So what about the future they have once they can no longer find the work they are finding today?

yes they are impoverished, but why don't they stand up and fight for their country to make things better. Sometimes I think immigrants thinks every right we have here was somehow magically given to us by the government, it wasn't.

People in this country have had to fight and die for every privilage that we have, the reason why we have a 40 hour work week and child labor laws is because people fought and died for it, the reason why we have Unions and workers rights is because Americans fought stood up and were willing to fight and die for it and they did. The reason why we have civil rights laws is because People stood up fought and were willing to die and they did, the reason why we have women's rights in this country is because people stood up and fought and were in prisoned for it, every privilage that we have in this country has is stained in someones blood, in someones courage to to take a stand and die if necessary to get better conditions, America is no diffrent from other countries, its only that people were willing to fight for what they believed in and needed.

and you know what we still have to fight to hang on and keep these privliages, its still a struggle.

illegals come here, and they get a free ride off of our stuggles,and they haven't paid any dues, add insult to injury they don't even want to really be Americans or learn the language.

Like I said espeically Mexico and many other south American countries are rich in natural resources just as rich as the U.S if they want decent jobs that pay if they want a better system they should be willing to fight for it, but why would they do that when its easier to cross the border and work over here.

through NAFTA the U.S is in real jeopardy of becoming a third world nation, with third world standards of living for the poor, its already pretty bad, alot of Republicans would have you think that everything is dandy here but thats not the reality of the situation, thats why you have many people like Bush himself perpertrating the myth that Americans aren't willing to work the jobs that illegals do. like I say pay us a fair wage and have decent working conditions and there isn't a job any U.S citizen won't do.

PIRATEJENNY

Friday, March 31, 2006 6:56 AM (P)

Quote:

Wow. You keep with this sensible talk and you'll have to change your name...'HeroJenny'.

ewwwwwwww it disturbs me that you actually liked what I had to say

RIGHTEOUS9

Friday, March 31, 2006 7:59 AM (P)

Not exactly sure why crossing the border is easy in your estimation.

And how do they get a free ride off of our struggles? they don't have the rights we earned for ourselves. They don't have the same liberties, or protections we do.

I agree with some of what you said in your post. You're totally right about there not being such a thing as a job Americans just don't want to do, but there is such a thing as them doig jobs that we don't get paid enough to do. Immigrants are hardly getting a free ride. They are getting exploited.

I also think armchair quarterbacking when it comes to rising up is a little unfair, and you hardly take into account all of the serendipidous reasons our country became a democracy.

In large part, it took educated people with money and a voice, who were willing to stand up to the British Empire, which quite frankly, took them being somewhat insulated from swift british reprisal, while they generated their rebellion.

I have to speculate here, because I'm not an expert on Mexico, but it seems like generating political discord would be a hard thing to do in a country with such a corrupt government, that could dissapear you before you even generated enough of a squeak to get noticed.

And I disagree...America is a vastly different situation than other countries. While we had some great thinkers who efforted to found our nation, we also had a situation with many hands on the same pie...that is, so many different variations of christianity, so many different philosophies on what government should be, so many different ethnicities, and in the end, in order to survive as a democracy and not just some other plutocracy that used religion or nationalism to quell the masses, 13 different colonies HAD TO come to a compromise, some of them begrudgingly, for the sake of the nation's survival. That compromise, I believe, is a very important variable that made our democracy happen.

If you keep people undereducated and either hungry or overworked, you keep high minded ideas like revolution out of their heads. People need a leader who has that education(worldly or scholarly)and has both the bravery and the wisdom to energize them.

And you're right, we need to protect our democracy and our standard of living here. That's why I think energy spent attacking the symptom of the problem(the immigrants) and not the problem(corporate pocket-stuffing) is only playing into this perpetuating system. Let's fling some mud at the people who deserve having it flung at them, and lets finally apply our wrath in a direction that can actually solve the problem.

Illegal immigration needs to stop, for their sake as well as ours. They are the victims along with us...but we have an actual voice in our politics. We can actually do something for them and us if we don't confuse the real issue.

That's my hope anyway.

Disclaimer...the post you just read was written by a Waiter with some college background at a Cal State.

HERO

Friday, March 31, 2006 2:00 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
ewwwwwwww it disturbs me that you actually liked what I had to say

Why is it all about you? Imagine how I felt. Imagine how everyone else felt. They look foreward to PJ posts so they can all laugh at the crazy leftist rantings of a poorly edju-makated fringe lunatic...and then you start talking all sensified. Scares them. Makes them wonder if God really was devouring the moon the other day.

Now me, I understand your problem. You come here and get challenged and are forced to read the good common sense truth-telling by myself and a couple others...you are forced to critically debate the issues which until now you had never really been challanged to consider. Somewhere...deep down in places you don't acknowledge in polite company, you realize I'm right. Sure you intellectually cling to your irrational beliefs...but in your heart...YOU KNOW I'M RIGHT.

I just want you to know it's ok. You can admit your wrong and move on. We don't judge here...and unlike liberals, we conservatives welcome new ideas and broader perspectives that a former liberal can bring...after all even the Gipper started as a Democrat.

So I urge you to embrace the changes of your heart and slip the surly bonds of liberalism to "touch the face of God."

H

CHRISISALL

Friday, March 31, 2006 2:01 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:

Illegal immigration needs to stop, for their sake as well as ours. They are the victims along with us...but we have an actual voice in our politics. We can actually do something for them and us if we don't confuse the real issue.

Again, excellent. Thanks.

Chrisisall

RIGHTEOUS9

Friday, March 31, 2006 6:06 PM (P)

As a case in point,

There was a Mexican revolution.

http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch03mex.htm

Lo and behold, our inlfuence helped to crush a true populist democracy, taking sides against the revolutionary idealist Maderno, and helping to install his replacement.

CITIZEN

Friday, March 31, 2006 10:48 PM (P)

The Immigration is really screwed up over here.

There was a story of this guy who came over here, refused handouts and got a job. Genuinely trying to start a new life.

The Government tried to deport him and his family. It was only the friends he had in the local community that started a petition that kept him in.

You want to drive illegal cars, never get a job and live on handouts though and you’re a shoe in: "Here's a council house, was going to a local family but they don't really deserve it, paying taxes and the like, good on ya."

Or you could sleep with someone at the home office that works to.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

PIRATENEWS

Friday, March 31, 2006 11:57 PM (P)

Give the illegal aliens the jobs US citizens don't want, like building the Great Wall of USA on the Mexican and Canadian borders. Built to the same specs as the Great Wall INSIDE Israel, to keep Israel's Arab citizens enslaved to apartheid, funded entirely by US taxpayers.

Great Wall of Israel
www.counterpunch.org

Draft all the Mexican illegals into the US military and invade Mexico, overthrow and slaughter its Gangsta Govt like we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan, and export our democracy like we love to do. Make English the official language of Mexico, so the Mexicans will want to stay in their own fucking country. So what if millions of Mexicans are genocided? USA genocided 2-million Vietnamese, 2-million Iraqis, 10-million Germans, and 100-million Americans in USA. USA nuked Iraq with 400,000 Hiroshima bombs, and even nuked USA with 1,050 nuke bombs. NUKE MEXICO CITY, BEFORE THEY DO IT TO US VIA THE COMMIE CHINESE MILITARY AND ARABS RUNNING US PORTS VIA THE BRITISH EMPIRE. What's the big deal?

Entire towns in Texas are now flying Mexican flags, with only Spanish allowed to be spoken in US courts.

Race Riots Could Lead to Camps For Americans and Illegals - Mexican extremists led like lambs to the slaughter will be the first victims
www.infowars.com/articles/ps/camps_race_riots_could_lead_to_camps_citi
zens_illegals.htm

I only let the people I own use my title.
-Magistrate Higgins, Jaynestown

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO (VERSION 2)
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

ANTHONYT

Saturday, April 1, 2006 12:55 AM (P)

Hello Piratenews,

You know, I've never taken your posts seriously, and I'm almost convinced that you don't mean the things you post seriously. However, it occurred to me that I never asked...

Are you serious, or having a good laugh?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

PIRATENEWS

Saturday, April 1, 2006 1:12 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Piratenews,

You know, I've never taken your posts seriously, and I'm almost convinced that you don't mean the things you post seriously. However, it occurred to me that I never asked...

Are you serious, or having a good laugh?

Both.

Slaves in their own fucking country - US taxdollars at work
www.palestinercs.org/separation_wall.htm

The wall (black line) does not separate Israel from Palestine—it divides Palestine from itself. In the current plan, the wall will imprison more than 95,000 Palestinians.

Dividing the Conquered - Israel's wall of separation
www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj0311&article=0
31122

A Palestinian boy runs near the wall separating West Bank village of Abu Dis from east Jerusalem during a protest against the Israeli "security fence"

Ain't it funny how the Jewish-owned Media Mafia censors the Israeli Wall from US TV "news", while attacking all Americans who demand a wall on the Mexican border, to keep 100-million criminals from terrorizing, robbing, raping and murdering US citizens...

Israel's 'Wall' and Why It's Not a 'Fence'
www.ccmep.org/2004_articles/palestine/012304_israels_wall_and_why_its_
not_a.htm

Quote:
U.S. To Test 700-Ton Explosive

March 29, 2006

The U.S. military plans to detonate a 700 ton explosive charge in a test called “Divine Strake” that will send a mushroom cloud over Las Vegas, a senior defense official said March 30.

”I don’t want to sound glib here but it is the first time in Nevada that you’ll see a mushroom cloud over Las Vegas since we stopped testing nuclear weapons,” said James Tegnelia, head of the Defense Threat Reduction Agency.

Tegnelia said the test was part of a U.S. effort to develop weapons capable of destroying deeply-buried bunkers housing nuclear, chemical or biological weapons. ”We have several very large penetrators we’re developing,” he told defense reporters.

”We also have — are you ready for this — a 700-ton explosively formed charge that we’re going to be putting in a tunnel in Nevada,” he said.

”And that represents to U.S. the largest single explosive that we could imagine doing conventionally to solve that problem,” he said.

The aim is to measure the effect of the blast on hard granite structures, he said.

He said the Russians have been notified of the test, which is scheduled for the first week of June 2006 at the Nevada test range.

www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=1654792&C=america

That's the same size as a tactical nuclear weapon... Granite is radioactive... So the dust fallout over Vegas and USA will be radioactive, just like the "Depleted" Unranium fallout from Iraq is irradiating Europe for the next 45-billion years...

Why don't you care about the overthrow of your nation? Bush Sr told Saddam it was okay to invade Kuwait, just like Bush Jr is telling Mexico it's okay to invade USA... Do the math.

"Every day's a negotiation and sometimes it's done with guns."
-Joss the Boss

ANTHONYT

Saturday, April 1, 2006 2:20 AM (P)

First of all... A 700 Ton explosive. Cool. Nice alternative to nukes, and glad we have it. I wish we had them in the kiloton range.

Second of all, Granite isn't particularly radioactive. The potassium isotope in granite has a half life of 1.28 billion years, if what the science books tell us is true. A granite dust cloud is no more dangerous than a non-granite dust cloud. This isn't to say that I like dust clouds, but the desert has plenty of them already.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

PIRATENEWS

Saturday, April 1, 2006 4:48 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Second of all, Granite isn't particularly radioactive. The potassium isotope in granite has a half life of 1.28 billion years, if what the science books tell us is true. A granite dust cloud is no more dangerous than a non-granite dust cloud. This isn't to say that I like dust clouds, but the desert has plenty of them already.

But silicosis IS deadly. Black Lung. And Alpha particles in the lungs is like getting a medical X-ray every minute.

700 tons... No way is that practical on a battlefield. The only way to move that into position is by train. What a great way for the Bush Gang to "nuke" a US city via the subways... Then blame the Spics - with Martial Law for EVERYONE. Dictator for life...

ANTHONYT

Saturday, April 1, 2006 1:47 PM (P)

Like I said, I don't like dust clouds, but the desert is full of them. I know. I live in the desert.

When people stop using granite as a common household building material, I'll yell at the government.

Also... 700 tons is probably the yield of the explosive, and not its weight. A 5,000 pound penetrator uses explosive that only weighs 647 pounds. Larger bombs are delivered by cargo plane.

Finally, if the US wanted to blow up the subway, they've got plenty of small tac nukes that could be stolen by terrorists to get the job done, and with more fear for all.

You may have valid concerns, my PirateNews, but this isn't one of them. I think I will play devil's advocate to you in the future, to see how many of your claims stand up to scrutiny.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

CITIZEN

Saturday, April 1, 2006 1:49 PM (P)

I guess someone didn't learn anything from the Berlin Wall.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

CITIZEN

Saturday, April 1, 2006 1:51 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I think I will play devil's advocate to you in the future, to see how many of your claims stand up to scrutiny.

Good, I won't be the only one.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

PIRATENEWS

Saturday, April 1, 2006 8:23 PM (P)

Citizen's opinion don't count, [* MOD ACTION: personal attacks and flaming are not accepted on these forums -- if this continues, threads will be moved wholesale to troll country and accounts may be suspended *]

Maybe its a good thing to have given all Texas streets and highways to the King of Spain for GPS taxation by the mile? Maybe that will keep out the illegal aliens? $5,000 to $20,000 every year per vehicle for wheel tax, by turning every car into a govt TAXicab. Make it such a hell hole that no one will ever want to live there...
www.texastollparty.com
www.corridorwatch.org

The Berlin Wall was to keep prisoners in, not invaders out. Built by the Commies, under orders from their British masters who invented and founded Communism as a global Jewish slave planation - of which Mexico and Commie China are just minions of the German "British" Empire. Why do ya think Prince Harry Sax CoBurg Gotha wears a Nazi swastika? As an emploee of MOD. NAZIonal SOCIALIST Workers Party = Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics = British Fabian SOCIALISM. Doh!

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,grossbild-425565-
336615,00.html

Quote:
Prince Harry's Nazi outfit: Your views

The party theme was "colonial and native" and the prince is also seen holding a drink and cigarette. The Board of Deputies of British Jews has described the costume as being in bad taste but accepted the Royal apology. The Duchess of York has said Prince Harry "is a fine young man" and does not need to apologise again for the incident.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/4170635.stm

Is Citizen a [* MOD ACTION: personal attacks and flaming are not accepted on these forums -- if this continues, threads will be moved wholesale to troll country and accounts may be suspended *]

I only let the people I own use my title.
-Magistrate Higgins, Jaynestown

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO (VERSION 2)
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

CITIZEN

Saturday, April 1, 2006 8:29 PM (P)

PN's opinion doesn't count because he's a
[* MOD ACTION: personal attacks and flaming are not accepted on these forums -- if this continues, threads will be moved wholesale to troll country and accounts may be suspended *]

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

PIRATENEWS

Saturday, April 1, 2006 8:47 PM (P)

Citizen, how [* MOD ACTION: personal attacks and flaming are not accepted on these forums -- if this continues, threads will be moved wholesale to troll country and accounts may be suspended *]

"My German Grand Mum's the richest woman in the world. My uncle lived in Nazi Germany during the war, to give us a place to live in case they won. I can wear whatever the fuk-all I want! Ta de da de da! And if I don't suck up to the Nazis my Granpa will kill me just like mommy..."
-Prince Harry the Nazi

Quote:
DIANA LETTER SENSATION: 'THEY WILL TRY TO KILL ME'

By Jane Kerr, Royal reporter
London Mirror
20 October 2003

PRINCESS DIANA claimed there was a plot to kill her in a car crash in a handwritten letter only 10 months before she died. She gave it to her butler Paul Burrell with orders that he should keep it as "insurance" for the future.

PLOT: Diana's handwritten letter to Paul Burrell in which she revealed her fears of being badly hurt in "an accident"

The princess predicted: “This particular phase in my life is the most dangerous.” She said "XXXXXXXXXXX is planning ‘an accident’ in my car, brake failure and serious head injury in order to make the path clear for Charles to marry”.

In the letter, revealed by the Daily Mirror today, Diana named who she believed was plotting to kill her. But the Mirror is not able to repeat the allegation for legal reasons so we have blanked that part of the letter out.

The document will fuel the conspiracy theories which have raged in the six years since she was killed in a Paris car crash.

But it also appears to bring fresh importance to a warning by the Queen that there were “powers at work in this country about which we have no knowledge”.

The Queen was speaking to Burrell at Buckingham Palace in a meeting that would prove crucial in the collapse of his trial for theft.

Now, plagued by that meeting and deeply troubled that there has still been no inquest in Britain into the death of Diana and her boyfriend Dodi Fayed, Burrell has come forward with the stunning new evidence.

In his new book A Royal Duty the former servant – cleared last year of stealing Diana’s possessions – claims she began to worry about her security TWO YEARS before her death and that this led her to record her fears in the document.

Before sealing the letter in an envelope marked “Paul”, the princess told him: “I’m going to date this and I want you to keep it ... just in case.”

In the second paragraph of the document, written in October 1996, Diana explained in the plainest possible language that she was convinced of the plot to mastermind an accident.

Burrell describes in his book the events that led the princess to write the document at her desk in Kensington Palace.

Diana’s divorce from Prince Charles had been finalised less than two months earlier.

The princess, who had cut down on her charities to focus on Aids, leprosy and victims of homelessness, was enjoying huge public support.

But according to Burrell, by the autumn of 1996 she had “an overpowering feeling that she was ‘in the way’.”

He adds: “Rightly or wrongly she felt the stronger she became, the more she was regarded as a modernising nuisance.

“She certainly felt that ‘the system’ didn’t appreciate her work and that for as long as she was on the scene Prince Charles could never properly move on.”

Burrell says the princess told him: “I have become strong and they don’t like it when I am able to do good and stand on my own two feet without them.”

THE princess’s anxiety deepened to such an extent that she ordered a sweep of her apartments at Kensington Palace for listening devices.

By October 1996 she once again confided in Burrell that she believed there was a concerted attempt to undermine her in the public’s eyes.

SMASH: Twisted wreckage of the Mercedes Diana was travelling in

She recalled

ANTHONYT

Saturday, April 1, 2006 9:10 PM (P)

PirateNews,

You post so much material so quickly that it is hard to keep up. I still find it hard to believe that you're serious about most of it.

Now that the Granite threat is debunked, which of your claims shall we research next?

Did I read you wrong, or did you write that Winston Churchill traded soldiers for scientists during Project Paperclip?

Shall I start researching that?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

PIRATENEWS

Saturday, April 1, 2006 9:24 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

PirateNews,

Did I read you wrong, or did you write that Winston Churchill traded soldiers for scientists during Project Paperclip?

Shall I start researching that?

Don't reasearch anything. Reading's for geeks. Trust your Gangsta Govt. Go ahead and join the military, after your Vegas vacation sans gas mask.

But if you must:

www.google.com
www.amazon.com

keywords:

"Project Paperclip" and "Nazi" and "POW" and "MIA"

Quote:
SOLDIERS OF MISFORTUNE

by James D. Sanders, Mark A. Sauter, and R. Cort Kirkwood

A secret covenant of the 1945 Yalta agreement provided that the U.S. and Britain would return Soviet citizens residing in the West. In exchange, Stalin promised to return Western soldiers who had been liberated by the Red Army. After the war, American and British authorities breached that agreement by secretly permitting Nazis to remain in the West. Stalin learned about the deception and retaliated by holding 23,500 American and 30,000 British and Commonwealth soldiers captive in the vast Soviet gulag system.

The authors trace the fate of American POWs from the Korean, Vietnam and Cold wars. In the early years of the Cold War, American soldiers and civilians were kidnapped off the streets of Europe and taken to the Soviet Union where they were interrogated and brainwashed, later disappearing into the gulag. Hundreds of Korean War POWs were transferred to China and the Soviet Union during that war. Despite countless denials by American officials, the authors provide new evidence that Vietnam War MIAs were smuggled out of the Asian jungles and taken to live out their lives in Siberian exile.

Soldiers of Misfortune turns history upside down--it documents that every president since World War I1 has lied to the American people about the fate of its fighting men. This book leaves only one unanswered question: How many Americans are still alive in Russia, China and North Korea?

http://geocities.com/snetterton2/Soldiers.html

See also:

"Kiss the Boys Goodbye: How the United States Betrayed Its Own POW'S in Vietnam"
by Monika Jensen-Stevenson

Why are such facts hard to believe? 45-million Americans have been murdered since 1973, when US Supreme Court legalized genocide. Don't you recognize a Civil War when you see one?

www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20Government/evils_in_government.ht
m

Now I've got to go to UT Law Library to do research by reading books, in order to survive Gangsta Govt. I apologize to Citizen and Hero for being such a bad slave.

CITIZEN

Saturday, April 1, 2006 9:41 PM (P)

[* MOD ACTION: personal attacks and flaming are not accepted on these forums -- if this continues, threads will be moved wholesale to troll country and accounts may be suspended *]

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

ANTHONYT

Saturday, April 1, 2006 10:34 PM (P)

From the quote PirateNews Posted:

"SOLDIERS OF MISFORTUNE

by James D. Sanders, Mark A. Sauter, and R. Cort Kirkwood

A secret covenant of the 1945 Yalta agreement provided that the U.S. and Britain would return Soviet citizens residing in the West. In exchange, Stalin promised to return Western soldiers who had been liberated by the Red Army. After the war, American and British authorities breached that agreement by secretly permitting Nazis to remain in the West. Stalin learned about the deception and retaliated by holding 23,500 American and 30,000 British and Commonwealth soldiers captive in the vast Soviet gulag system."

I find this quote disturbing, and I assume it is fair game because it was posted as evidence.

1) A secret covenant of the 1945 Yalta agreement provided that the U.S. and Britain would return Soviet citizens residing in the West.

Okay. If we accept that a secret covenant existed (why not?) then we must accept that the US and British governments would return Soviet citizens residing in the West. Sounds straightforward.

2) In exchange, Stalin promised to return Western soldiers who had been liberated by the Red Army.

Tit for tat. Sounds good so far. In fact, I'm confused as to why this is a secret covenant. It sounds logical and right. "You give us back our citizens, we give you back your citizens."

3) After the war, American and British authorities breached that agreement by secretly permitting Nazis to remain in the West.

Wha? Nazis aren't Soviet citizens, are they? I mean, they're German, right? So how is this a violation of the 'secret covenant?'

4) Stalin learned about the deception and retaliated by holding 23,500 American and 30,000 British and Commonwealth soldiers captive in the vast Soviet gulag system."

Wow. That's a lot of people. Plus the covenant doesn't even appear to have been breached.

If I take the quoted snippet at face value, it seems to contradict itself. I would assume that either the snippet was poorly or erroneously written and that the full story explains things better... Or that the snippet represents a flawed premise.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

ANTHONYT

Saturday, April 1, 2006 10:40 PM (P)

I'd like to add...

When did the US Supreme Court legalize Genocide? I missed it.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

PIRATENEWS

Saturday, April 1, 2006 10:46 PM (P)

Quote:
ANTHONYT wrote:

700 tons is probably the yield of the explosive, and not its weight. A 5,000 pound penetrator uses explosive that only weighs 647 pounds. Larger bombs are delivered by cargo plane.

Yes, that's the yield of a NUKE. A conventional bomb is mainly metal - "depleted" uranium that's radioactive for 45-billion years, with gamma, x-ray, beta and deadly alpha particles - since it has to penetrate and fragment. The exploding metal acts as bullets which does most of the killing.

This 700-ton bomb in Vegas is 100% explosive (since a static test of a metal penetrator underground doesn't simulate kinetic energy from 50,000 feet altitude). Either it's 700-tons of TNT (1-million 400-thousand pounds, not very likely), or 700-tons yield for a 750-pound nuke (which is mainly electronics and conventional explosives, and only a few pounds of plutonium).

Since Pentagon admits it will make a "mushroom cloud", even tho its buried underground, it's probably a nuke. If it is testing "penetrator" metals, then those are composed of radiactive DU, which makes the mushroom cloud EXTREMELY deadly - but only for the next 45-billion years.

There's no aircraft strong enough to actually lift a 700-ton bomb. B-52s don't carry 2,800 500-pound bombs (700-tons). Max takeoff weight of a B-52 is is only 244-tons (488,000-lb), including fuel and weight of the empty aircraft. Max loadout for a B-52 is 51 500-pound bombs (25,500-pounds), or 51 750-pound bombs (38,250-pounds).

Why don't you take a trip to Vegas with your radiation detector, and give us your report? Or do your trust the snews media to do that, when their weathermen don't even own radiation detectors? I wonder how many citizens of Vegas will die from the resultant nuke poisoning? If the sheriff had half a brain, he'd send a posse to arrest the base commanders for attempted murder. Vegas is probably just a big lab experiment for Paperclip Nazis.

And look what Bush did to NYC and Orleans...

As for the illegal alien invasion, do a google search for "Operation Garden Plot" (United States Civil Disturbance Plan 55-2), with military use of deadly force against US citizens, with military concentration camps... And you think they'll ignore 50-million illegal alien slaves bitching about high taxes, low wages and no legal rights?
www.uhuh.com/control/garden.htm

Shit, Uncle Scam NUKES its own citizens! You think it gives a damn about criminal invaders?

CITIZEN

Saturday, April 1, 2006 10:58 PM (P)

Out of curiosity weren't we allied with Russia?

What was Russia doing with Allied POWs? Unless they were from the German occupied territories.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

FLETCH2

Saturday, April 1, 2006 11:00 PM (P)

TNT is not a great explosive by modern standards. To produce an explosion equivalent to 700 tons of TNT does not require 700 tons or a powerful modern binary explosive.

Nothing "nuclear" about a mushroom cloud, any explosion that sucks up enough dust or smoke will make one.

PIRATENEWS

Saturday, April 1, 2006 11:03 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

Out of curiosity weren't we allied with Russia?

What was Russia doing with Allied POWs? Unless they were from the German occupied territories.

The bogus Cold War started the day WW2 ended. If not before. Commie Russia "liberated" Poland, then made every liberated person a prisoner/slave, including Allied POWs. Except for the POWs smart enough to escape the camps when the Nazis fled, instead of waiting for a free ride from Uncle Scam.

My uncle was in a Nazi POW camp in Poland when the war ended, and only escaped the Commies because his camp was near a Nazi airbase, and an Allied airlift rescued 10,000 POWs from that camp in only 3 days, before the Russian "liberators" arrived. He was based at RAF Snetterton Heath, in East Angliashire, UK, where I drove my first motor race at Snetterton Circuit. It has a cool museum at Eccles Hall School. The 1,000-year-old church nearby has a stained glass window funded by the Americans based there in WW2. You can probably still see the painting I commissioned of his last flight, on the wall at the Little Chef restaurant, north of Attleborough, beside snetterton:
www.geocities.com/snetterton_b17_pow_mia

CITIZEN

Saturday, April 1, 2006 11:08 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by PirateNews:
The bogus Cold War started the day WW2 ended. If not before.

No shit. Why do you think America dropped the bombs on Japan? Partly as a big show of force to keep the Russians in line.

Worked real well.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

ANTHONYT

Saturday, April 1, 2006 11:15 PM (P)

"TNT is not a great explosive by modern standards. To produce an explosion equivalent to 700 tons of TNT does not require 700 tons or a powerful modern binary explosive.

Nothing "nuclear" about a mushroom cloud, any explosion that sucks up enough dust or smoke will make one."

I agree here. Sorry, PirateNews. Plus you weren't paying attention. The military is doing above-ground and below ground tests. The one that will provide our mushroom cloud is an above ground test.

And it should be possible to provide a 700 Ton (TNT equiv) explosion with a 100-120 Ton bomb. Said bomb could be dropped from a cargo plane, like the famed 'daisy cutters.'

Finally, PirateNews, since you seem to think radioactive granite is so bad for us... I was wondering where you get the potassium from in your diet. Lots of people eat bannannas, the radioactive fruit.

Radiation doesn't equal radiation sickness. We're surrounded by it every day.

--Anthony

P.S. If you want to write a convincing 'conspiracy theory' regarding the Nevada test, try this. The government wants to know how effective a tactical nuke would be in XYZ scenario, but testing of nuclear weapons is banned. So they have created a tac-nuke sized conventional explosive so that they can conduct equivelancy tests on various materials. Now THAT argument makes a lot more sense... But of course it's not so insidious.

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

FLETCH2

Saturday, April 1, 2006 11:27 PM (P)

Like a lot of things Piratenews publishes there is a grain of truth in the center of a pearl of self deception.

During the War the German SS recruited soldiers from German occupied territory. When the Germans invaded the Soviet Union they found plenty of minority groups who viewed this as a liberation, most notably Russian Cosacks many of whom joined the SS and fought for the Germans. At the end of the war any of these men caught by the Western Allies would have been considered prisoners of war by the Geneva conventions. As such the western allies were responsable for their welfare. Theoretically at the end of the war they should have been released in Germany where many were interned and then offered repatriation. In fact the Allies had done a deal that said that soldiers from Allied nations found serving in German units would be forcably repatriated to their home countries. The captured Cossacks were shipped back to Stalin who killed them as traitors to the Soviet Union and shipped their families to Siberia.

I have no idea what the rest of it was about.

PIRATENEWS

Saturday, April 1, 2006 11:41 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

Why do you think America dropped the bombs on Japan? Partly as a big show of force to keep the Russians in line.

Worked real well.

To keep the Russian slaves in line, to keep the British slaves in line, and keep the US slaves in line, and all the other slaves in line on the global plantation. Yes it worked very well for the New WORLD Order shadow govt dictatorship.

Quote:

"SEIG HEIL MEIN FUHRER MR PRESIDENT!"
"Henry" Kissenger as Dr Strangelove
(Jews built the nuke bombs)
www.whyfiles.org/186ed_teller/2.html

"America's global strategy benefits from the Indian participation in building a New World Order. "
-Zee News, "Kissinger: ''America's global strategy benefits from the Indian (nuclear bomb) participation in building a New World Order," March 21, 2006

"NAFTA is a major stepping stone to the New World Order."
-Sir Heinz "Henry" Kissenger Jewish Knight of the BRITISH Empire, promoting "Free Trade" with Mexico in narcotics and slaves

"Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond, whether real or 'promulgated,' that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this 'scenario', individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government."
-Sir Heinz "Henry" Kissenger Jewish Knight of the BRITISH Empire, during riots in Los Angeles that killed 60 people and $1-billion damages, after copsters were found "not guilty" by a brainwashed jury of sheeple, for beating motorist Rodney King nearly to death, for civil breach of driver license contract for alleged "speeding" down an offramp behind a husband/wife CHips team without RADAR, while driving the World's Slowest Car (Korean Hyndai Excell)

"Yes, there will be a New World Order, and it will force the United States to change it's perceptions."
-Sir Heinz "Henry" Kissenger Jewish Knight of the BRITISH Empire, (Bush Jr's 9/11 Commission head, former US Secretary of State in Vietnam Wars, Communist KGP agent, OSS/CIA recruiter of Nazis for Project Paperclip, homosexual rapist of US soldiers) World Affairs Council Press Conference, Regent Beverly Wilshire Hotel, April 19, 1994

"American soldiers are dumb animals to be used in the furtherance of 'our' foreign policy.
-Sir Heinz "Henry" Kissenger Jewish Knight of the BRITISH Empire (quoted in the book "Kiss the Boys Goodbye")

"We have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait. (US Secretary of State) James Baker has directed our official spokesmen to emphasize this instruction."
-April Glaspie, US Ambassador to Iraq, videotaped meeting with Saddam Hussein on 7/25/90, New York Times, 9/23/90 (Iraq invaded Kuwait on August 2, 1990)

"What is at stake is more than one small country, it is a big idea - a New World Order, where diverse nations are drawn together in common cause to achieve the universal aspirations of mankind: peace and security, freedom, and the rule of law. We will succeed in the Gulf. And when we do, the world community will have sent an enduring warning to any dictator or despot, present or future, who contemplates outlaw aggression. The world can therefore seize this opportunity to fufill the long-held promise of a New World Order - where brutality will go unrewarded, and aggression will meet collective resistance."
-Sir President George Bush Sr Knight of the British Empire, State of the Union Address 1991, Gulf War #1

Hiding Our War Dead. Italy Publicly Honors Its War Dead, America Hides Its Dead
www.bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=5577

CITIZEN

Saturday, April 1, 2006 11:54 PM (P)

Ahh, he's talking about the Hiwis!

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

PIRATENEWS

Sunday, April 2, 2006 12:19 AM (P)

Vegas Vacation - USA nuked 1,050 times by the NWO

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

P.S. If you want to write a convincing 'conspiracy theory' regarding the Nevada test, try this. The government wants to know how effective a tactical nuke would be in XYZ scenario, but testing of nuclear weapons is banned. So they have created a tac-nuke sized conventional explosive so that they can conduct equivelancy tests on various materials. Now THAT argument makes a lot more sense... But of course it's not so insidious.

That's what I said. Sort of. Except for the part about switching TNT for nukes. USA can't even afford to manufacture bullets for Iraq War (we buy them from Israel - 250,000 bullets to kill each Iraqi!). So how can we afford 700-ton conventional bombs? Of yeah, we borrow the counterfeit money from Sir Allan Greenspan Jewish Knight of the British Empire in England, and the private Federal Reserve Bank of Jewish Lord Rothschild in England.

How do you drop a bomb from an aircraft and make it land softly in a tunnel?

Quote:
”We also have — are you ready for this — a 700-ton explosively formed charge that we’re going to be putting in a tunnel in Nevada,” he said.
www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=1654792&C=america

They're apparently talking about ONE of many nuke blasts, er, "tests". With a "formed charge" - that's a "shape charge" for penetrating hardened objects. So it's a "nuclear shaped charge", like a monster RPG. And why would you "notify the Russians" if it's NOT a nuke (or multiple nukes)? For an underground bomb to send a mushroom cloud over USA, it HAS to be a nuke.

Crap, most of the radiation will probably settle over my town of Knoxville Tennessee, since we're trapped between 2 mountain ranges, the better to contain nuke blasts from our nuke bomb factries (that rountinely make INTENTIONAL releases of 1,000s of tons of uranium to track it 100 miles downwind in the radioactive food supply).

Guess it's time to use my radiation BS detector. Too bad I didn't have one when I worked in nukes in USAF in UK, where we had ZERO radiation testing. I wish I could afford a greenhouse for my garden this year, to keep the poisonous fallout out of my organic food.

www.socialnerve.org/art/latuff/main.htm

PIRATEJENNY

Sunday, April 2, 2006 1:01 AM (P)

Quote:
.Not exactly sure why crossing the border is easy in your estimation.

I didn't say it was easy, I said it was easier then taking a stand and fighting for your rights and needs in your own country

Quote:
.And how do they get a free ride off of our struggles? they don't have the rights we earned for ourselves. They don't have the same liberties, or protections we do..

what does that have to do with it, people in many countries don't have the rights we do, and they still stand up and fight, people in this country haven't had rights and still have stood up and fought, take Martin Luther King jr, and the civil rights movement, or Ghandi in India, I don't know what your trying to say, America isn't a perfect country it never has been. That was my whole point= being people have had to stand up and fight for the privilages we have, the government didn't just give it to us, so yes illegal immigrants come here and enjoy the priviliges we have to fight for, without being willing to stand up and fight for their rights in their own country.

Quote:
.I agree with some of what you said in your post. You're totally right about there not being such a thing as a job Americans just don't want to do, but there is such a thing as them doig jobs that we don't get paid enough to do. Immigrants are hardly getting a free ride. They are getting exploited. .

Yes they are being exploited, and as an American you ought to not only be concerned about them being exploited,but also recognize that by their very exploitation its allowing us to be exploited for our labor, its great to be compassionate, but like I said Compassion also has to start at home, there is a bigger picture here. It makes me wonder about you, what your education is and what your job or profession is. I notice that its alot easier for people who are already in an established profession to ignore the bigger picture at the detriment to themselves, but what about the many poor Americans who are trying to make ends meet.

Illegal immigrants are driving wages down lack of jobs and fierce compettion for jobs only plays into the hands of business and industry it allows for people to continue to be exploited for their labor, its not just an illegal immigrant issue its an American issue, and our economy is getting worse by the day, our dollar has the potiental to be practically worthless. America is a country that doesn't really make anything anymore, we import just about everything we virtually have no industry here, jobs are being outsourced, we could very well hit a depression as bad as the one in the 1930's ,what if you can no longer aford to be in business? because no one can buy your goods or services, or what if you your company downsizes? or moves overseas or goes belly up, and you can't find a job, what if you find yourself standing in line after your unemployment and savings has ran out? and your willing to take any job at any price to feed your family and keep a roof over their heads. Are you telling me that you can't be exploited. The illegal immigration issue is a chain with many links.. links that directly affect you.

Quote:
.I also think armchair quarterbacking when it comes to rising up is a little unfair, and you hardly take into account all of the serendipidous reasons our country became a democracy

In large part, it took educated people with money and a voice, who were willing to stand up to the British Empire, which quite frankly, took them being somewhat insulated from swift british reprisal, while they generated their rebellion. ..

Your view is rather narrow , America isn't the only country that every rose up and took a stand, and you don't have to go that far back for an example, I'm talking about the act of standing up, those were diffrent times, diffrent issues, diffrent conditions and circumstances, are you trying to tell me that there are no educated people in Mexico or anyother south American countries?

Quote:
.I have to speculate here, because I'm not an expert on Mexico, but it se

PIRATEJENNY

Sunday, April 2, 2006 1:19 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
PN's opinion doesn't count because ...

I think you guys are trying to easily to dismiss PN with that philosphy, While I don't agree with everything PN says or necessarily likes some of his adjectives.

I realize and understand whats a guy to do when he's being bombarded with so much information

if you must dimiss, the messenger but you shouldn't dismiss the the message out of hand!!

CITIZEN

Sunday, April 2, 2006 2:21 AM (P)

Erm, PN's message is that the omnipotent British Queen, head of the British-Commie-Nazi-Jews, who are responcible for everything that has ever happened in the world, ever, are enslaving the people with the power of British-Commie-Nazi-Jew Flouride Telepathy.

Ignoring for a moment that most of his facts are misconceptions and misunderstandings firmly grounded in a complete lack of understanding of Physics, socio-polotics, History and a myriad of other things the fact that he thinks British-Commie-Nazi-Jews did it (not to mention the fact that he spews rhetoric straight out of the 'Big Book of Nazi Propeganda') is enough for me to dismiss his message.

I've ripped his posts and his facts apart before now, his reply is "You would say that! You're one of them, bah hiss!". I'm not one of them, they don't exist.

The level of delusion that sees a man who can barely tie his own shoe laces as the head of a global conspiracy so intricate, complex and well hidden from the popular view such as the BCNJ is staggering.

I don't care who runs that global over arching conspiracy which you (I use the term generally) are the only one capable of uncovering, whether it's Aliens, British-Commie-Nazi-Jews, School children or the Underpants nomes, you're still a nut. Lets be honest here, if there was any truth in what he says the BCNJ would of off'ed him sometime ago, a couple of dogs, a Shotgun and a security light are hardly going to stop a group that's manipulated the entire Human race since the beginning of time.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

PIRATENEWS

Sunday, April 2, 2006 2:48 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

When did the US Supreme Court legalize Genocide? I missed it.

Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=410&invo
l=113

Quote:
Moloch.
an ancient Phoenician and Ammonite god, to whom children were sacrificed by burning.
-Webster's New World Dictionary

Cannibal Reaver child sacrifice to Molech
Vaccines are made with cancerous fetal tissue
This is a figment of Citizen's imagination
www.antiabortionsigns.com/catalog.html

Quote:
"It is so hard to find a good abortionist these days. On June 11, it was career end No. 2 for abortionist Krishna Rajanna, proprietor of the now defunct Affordable Medical and Surgical Services in Kansas City, Kan. Rajanna first got noticed publicly in September 2003 when he called police to investigate alleged employee theft. Detective William Howard of the Kansas City Police Department responded, and was so appalled by what he and his partner found ('I thought I had heard and seen every vile, disgusting crime scene, but was in for a new shock when I started this investigation.') that he contacted the local district attorney plus three state agencies. Topping the list of horrors was an employee's account that she and others witnessed Rajanna 'microwave one of the aborted fetuses and stir it into his lunch,' as Howard recalled earlier this year when testifying before a Kansas House committee. Photos taken of his office and inside his refrigerator show that he kept fetuses in styrofoam cups in that frig along with food and drink. An employee later testified Rajanna took home all contaminated, medical and biohazard waste for residential trash pick-up. Photographs show the toilet was bloody and functioned as a human waste disposal in the literal sense. See for yourself."
-World Net Daily, "Fetus eater loses medical license," June 14, 2005
www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44777
www.kfl.org/PDFS/Rajanna_Biohazard_Area.pdf

45-million aborted Americans since 1973, 300-million murders to go...
For every abortion, an adult must be murdered to balance the pension Ponzi schemes...

Quote:
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name. And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not: Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.
-Leviticus 20:1-5, Christian Bible KJV

200,000 dead US troops in Gulf Wars sacrificed for Molech
This is a figment of Citizen's imagination
www.david-sadler.org -- www.gulfwarvets.com
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/piratenewsrss/message/200

1.2-million dead Iraqis, 18.8-million to go...

Quote:
And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD. Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
-Leviticus 18:21-22, Christian Bible KJV

Baby Iraqi Freedom Fighters
This is a figment of Citizen's imagination
www.bradblog.com/archives/00000418.htm

All this genocide is declared legal by the US Supreme Court, Congress and the White House.

Quote:
And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father. Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the a

REAVERMAN

Sunday, April 2, 2006 10:55 AM (P)

Quote:
And why would you "notify the Russians" if it's NOT a nuke (or multiple nukes)? For an underground bomb to send a mushroom cloud over USA, it HAS to be a nuke.

You would probably notify the russians because of a) seismic shock could be detectable in Russia(who knows? Its possible), or b) a show of force, or c) dont want the russians to think its a real nuke, or maybe even d) they were really high and did it on an impulse ("Dude! Check it out, we got a really, really big bomb! Lets see what happens when I touch this button!")

And as for the mushroom cloud, no, that doesn't mean it's a nuke. The cloud happens when an explosion eats up the air and creates a vacuum. All the debris created by the explosion gets sucked up by the vacuum, and distributed in the shape of a mushroom. Just about any decent explosion will do that under the right conditions. Its simple phisics. Maybe you should look it up sometime.

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

PIRATENEWS

Sunday, April 2, 2006 8:12 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverman:

Quote:
And why would you "notify the Russians" if it's NOT a nuke (or multiple nukes)? For an underground bomb to send a mushroom cloud over USA, it HAS to be a nuke.

You would probably notify the russians because of a) seismic shock could be detectable in Russia(who knows? Its possible), or b) a show of force, or c) dont want the russians to think its a real nuke, or maybe even d) they were really high and did it on an impulse ("Dude! Check it out, we got a really, really big bomb! Lets see what happens when I touch this button!").

I hope you're right, but I ain't taking no Vegas Vacation. And I'll have my radiation BS detector turned on (actually, it always runs 24/7 and can't be turned off for 10 years).
www.gammascout.com

Potassium Iodide Tablets
www.approvedgasmasks.com/potassium-iodide.htm
www.ki4u.com

Quote:
ANTHONYT wrote:

I was wondering where you get the potassium from in your diet. Lots of people eat bannannas, the radioactive fruit.

Radiation is good - when it stays in the Earth's core to power the Earth's force field to keep deadly gamma-rays, x-rays and 6-million-mph nuke particles from killing us.

Quote:
The Earth would have cooled off and become a dead rocky globe with a cold iron ball at the core if not for the continued release of heat by the decay of radioactive elements like potassium-40, uranium-238 and thorium-232, which have half-lives of 1.25 billion, 4 billion and 14 billion years, respectively. About one in every thousand potassium atoms is radioactive. The heat generated in the core turns the iron into a convecting dynamo that maintains a magnetic field strong enough to shield the planet from the solar wind.
www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/12/10_heat.shtml

Either Ecuador is depleted in Potassium, or radioactive bananas are a myth (to con the sheeple into loving radiation poisoning from man-made disasters), according to my Gamma Scout, which measures alpha, beta and gamma.

Hell, the Russians already run US Dept of Homeland Security with KGB director General Primakov (paid 10 times more salary than the president of USA), and Russians already have taken over entire US military bases in USA, so they already know all about it. Commie China already own and operate most US ports for the ChiCom Peoples Liberation Army. 1,000s of Communist Chinese and Russian employees are working inside nuke bomb factories in USA. They're probably gonna be roasting marshmallows at the bomb site.

Quote:
"Oak Ridge National Laboratory (nuke bomb factory) is a world campus, and the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11 and security-related fallout from those tragedies will not change that. ORNL confirmed that about 1,500 foreign nationals from 69 countries - Argentina to Zaire - currently are visiting the Oak Ridge lab. Thom Mason, the director of the Spallation Neutron Source, the biggest U.S. science project under construction, is not an American citizen. "I only got my green card in July,'' Mason said. More than 100 foreign nationals are full-time members of the scientific staff, and those numbers, of course, do not reflect the number of foreign-born scientists and engineers who have become naturalized U.S. citizens over the years. Recent statistics compiled by the Oak Ridge Institute for Science and Education show that 40 percent of the graduate degrees in nuclear engineering at U.S. institutions were awarded to foreign nationals. Similar stats are found across the sciences and math and computing."
—Frank Munger, editor, Knoxville News-Sentinel, "Oak Ridge lab is truly a global community", October 10, 2001

Quote:
INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION OF THE EAST TENNESSEE TECHNOLOGY PARK (NUKE BOMB FACTORIES)

Office of Environment, Safety and Health, U.S. Department of Energy (2000)

Pollution above toxic levels surrounding Oak Ridge Nuclear Laboratory (ETTP)

HTML Report (200 pages - Censored by US Dept of Homeland Security)
http://tis.eh.doe.go

ANTHONYT

Monday, April 3, 2006 4:24 AM (P)

PirateNews,

The shotgunning of information you present makes it difficult to argue a single point. If we focus on one or two of your theories, it would be easier to stay on topic.

Your counter-argument... why notify the Russians if it's not nuclear?

Simple enough. We have an agreement with them that we won't set off nukes anymore. The explosion is large enough to be mistaken for a nuke, and will be visible from space by monitoring satellites.

To prevent any misunderstandings, you want to tell them what it is.

Now, did you want to shift the topic to abortion, the definition of genocide, or the definition of judaism?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

RIGHTEOUS9

Monday, April 3, 2006 8:59 AM (P)

Hey Piratejenny,

Yeah, diebold and the like are a big issue.

I basically agree with you. A revolution is what they need. I'm not sure I put the blame on the people at this point, for not rising up. I take the basic premise that people are people, meaning that, if these people have reacted differently in this situation than others have in a different situation, the overall circumstances must be different, even if that circumstance is mindset alone.

And I can't really see it being too heartening, to actually have a revolution(they did revolt against their oppressive government) only to have their chosen leader undermined not only by the people's enemies, but by the United States(if I were to distinguish the two). That's the sort of result that feeds apathy, and teaches helplessness, and quite frankly its the far more common result of a revolution...replace one bad regime with another. I wasn't saying the U.S. was unique for revolting...I was saying it was rare for succeeding in making something better.

The only other thing is I really don't remember a day of our revolution. I can't really claim that "WE" overthrew the British and "WE" earned our freedoms. I didn't earn them any more than the bussers at the restaurant I work at did. Would I fight for such a thing if I were put in the situation? I'd like to think I would, but I don't know.

Aside of those quibbles, I agree with you. In fact, after reading a post of yours before the one you posted to me, I was wondering why I was engaging in this long debate, because in the context of that post, my post didn't seem as well founded. But I never read that one, and just saw a post that, while not wrong in any way, seemed to frame this particular issue by chastising the people who don't have the power(or at least haven't realized the power), rather than the ones who have it and are abusing it. My appologies, if I misinterpreted.

SIGNYM

Monday, April 3, 2006 1:11 PM (P)

I know that it's irritating for people to wander away from a thread and then try to revive dead parts of the discussion. All I can say is that real life intervened. I've said more than once that I'm of two minds (maybe three or four) about illegal immigration. So perhaps you can help me out.

Should we even consider paperless immigration a crime? Someone early in the dicussion said people should be able to go wherever they want to go. Forgetting "Mexicans" (and other Hispanics) for a moment, let's take the position that anybody- Asian, African, European, whatever- who can fly, walk, or boat to the United States should be able to work and live here. What would result?

Well, likely we would have a mass influx from societies that are poorer than ours. Doubtful we would get many Danes, Swedes, or Germans. In all likelihood we would see the poorest from the closest nations (Mexicans, Guatemalans, Ecuadorans, etc.) and the poor to middle class (what little there is of it) from farther nations (Sudanese, Rwandans, Indonesians, Russians etc.) Very few poor speak English (going by current situation) and many do not read or write in any language.

Where would that leave us? Well, first of all these people would be able to legally look for work. But most would be at a language and education disadvantage, and not knowing their rights and the US political system (being accustomed to meager eomployment and abusive, authoritarian societies) it's likely that many would be willingly exploited at work and isolated into ghettos at home, no matter what the law says. We could raise the minimum wage so as not to be exploitative and enforce work rules (set a few corporate heads on pikes at the city gates as examples) but that would prolly create unemployment and drive the marginal economy underground and back into illegal territory.

And then what do we do for the un- and under-employed? Welfare? State health insurance (like Medical)? Housing vouchers? The more I go down this thought experiment, the more it seems to me that even with the best of intentions unregulated immigration would be a national disaster. Does anyone see a different outcome?

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

PIRATENEWS

Monday, April 3, 2006 6:20 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

PirateNews,

The shotgunning of information you present makes it difficult to argue a single point. If we focus on one or two of your theories, it would be easier to stay on topic.

Now, did you want to shift the topic to abortion, the definition of genocide, or the definition of judaism?

The point is that USA is currently under attack by Civil War, fomented from within and by foreign powers, both govt and corporate. Criminal immigration (invasion) is merely a single front in this war, like the Western Front in Europe was just one front in World War 2. The best way to lose a war is to focus on only one front, while leaving your flank undefended.

In the case of criminal invasion, the best way to lose a war is to provide zero defense of your border, as in the Mexican border without any guards, fences or walls, with 7,000 criminal terrorists invading USA daily, 365 days every year - then they have 10 anchor babies that allegedly have US citizenship (so deport the parents and put them in orphanages - or better yet, sell them at a profit overseas, perhaps to European, Israeli, Arab, Asian, Mexican and South American slave brothels, to save them from US slave brothels).

Genocide of stupid US citizens is proceeding nicely, with 200-million US citizens genocided in Death Camps in the past century - abortions, children and adults.
www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/mar2004_awsi_01.htm

The published official goal of US Govt and the 50 state govts is to genocide 90% of US citizens and the world, via bioweaponized viruses, AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Bioweaponized HIV/AIDS is not fast enough - they publicly bragged last week that they need a man-made virus that kills within 48 hours, sprayed from aircraft (named "chemtrails" by US Congress), before the antidote can be destributed.

For those of you who laff at Jewish/Luciferian/Molech death cult at Bohemian Grove presidential compound, the lowly scientists and professors have their own death cult. These are the psychopaths who actually create the bioweapons in govt university laboratories:

Quote:
Meeting Doctor Doom

by Dr. Forrest M. Mims III
www.forrestmims.org

Dr. Eric Pianka - his students literally call him "GOD"

There is always something special about science meetings. The 109th meeting of the Texas Academy of Science at Lamar University in Beaumont on 3-5 March 2006 was especially exciting for me, because a student and his professor presented the results of a DNA study I suggested to them last year.

But there was a gravely disturbing side to that otherwise scientifically significant meeting, for I watched in amazement as a few hundred members of the Texas Academy of Science rose to their feet and gave a standing ovation to a speech that enthusiastically advocated the elimination of 90 percent of Earth's population by airborne Ebola. The speech was given by Dr. Eric R. Pianka (Fig. 1), the University of Texas evolutionary ecologist and lizard expert who the Academy named the 2006 Distinguished Texas Scientist.

Something curious occurred a minute before Pianka began speaking. An official of the Academy approached a video camera operator at the front of the auditorium and engaged him in animated conversation. The camera operator did not look pleased as he pointed the lens of the big camera to the ceiling and slowly walked away.

This curious incident came to mind a few minutes later when Professor Pianka began his speech by explaining that the general public is not yet ready to hear what he was about to tell us. Because of many years of experience as a writer and editor, Pianka's strange introduction and the TV camera incident raised a red flag in my mind. Suddenly I forgot that I was a member of the Texas Academy of Science and chairman of its Environmental Science Section. Instead, I grabbed a notepad so I could take on the role of science reporter.

www.sas.org/tcs/weeklyIssues_2006/2006-04-07/feature1p
www.sas.org/tcs/w

FLETCH2

Monday, April 3, 2006 7:27 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
And then what do we do for the un- and under-employed? Welfare? State health insurance (like Medical)? Housing vouchers? The more I go down this thought experiment, the more it seems to me that even with the best of intentions unregulated immigration would be a national disaster. Does anyone see a different outcome?

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

I think it also needs to be pointed out that these people need things to do. I live in Texas, which means that any nasty job you can think of, especially ones outside like construction or landscaping are done by Mexicans. I have no doubt that illegals work their asses off for pennies on the legal dollar. However, even so there is not a limitless supply of labour especially in agricultural areas which means a good worker isn't at absolute bargain basement levels of pay right now. An open border would not make more jobs, just increase the people chasing after them ironically it would be bad news even for current illegals.

PIRATENEWS

Monday, April 3, 2006 9:58 PM (P)

Terrorist traitors hoist Mexican flag at a California school
www.whittierdailynews.com/news/ci_3657604

Quote:
"We have an aging white America. They are dying. We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him."
-Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas, Arlington, founder of La Raza Unida (The Race United)

We need to get Prof Pianka and Prof Gutierrez, lock em in a room, and videotape their Celebrity Death Match.

But this looks like fun - burning Mexican flags flying over US govt facilities:

Quote:
Immigration tensions spark flag-burning in A.J.

By Blake Herzog, Tribune
March 31, 2006

This week’s tensions over immigration reform literally caught fire in the East Valley on Thursday when students raised a Mexican flag over Apache Junction High School — and then other students yanked it down and burned it.

“I know (they) shouldn’t have burned the Mexican flag,” said Jacob Stewart, a 16-year-old sophomore. “I heard it was raised above the American flag and that just irked me.”

Six students — three Hispanic and three white — will be disciplined, principal Chad Wilson said.

Wilson said in a letter sent home to parents that there would be “increased supervision, including additional police officers, on the campus over the next couple of days.”

Wilson said the increased security would include four off-duty police officers the district hired as security guards, along with its regular school resource officer.

School flagpoles have been lightning rods across the country this week, including an incident in which a Houston high school principal was disciplined after he flew a Mexican flag underneath his campus’ U.S. and state flags.

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/62231.html

What's the big deal? Give the flag-burners an award ceremony, and send the Mexicans back to Mexico that they love so much.

Quote:

Halliburton builds concentration camps for illegal aliens needing geography lessons

Flash Video: "Fuck the Gringos"

Why WeHateGringos.com?

The League of United Latin America Citizens (LULAC) set up the website called www.WeAreRacist.com and www.WeAreRacists.com. It had photos of our friends, portrayed as racists. We were infuriated and decided to build a website.
www.lulac.org

The Flash Intro below exposes some of the hatred they hold toward Americans.

Music video We Are The Race, Mexican terrorists in USA, burning US flags in USA, Spics wearing Communist uniforms in USA, and Spic Gangs running amok perping violent crimes as usual.

VIEW FLASH VIDEO:
www.WeHateGringos.com

Millions of illegal aliens are in Mexican gangs

WeHateGringos.com is a project of www.ForTheCause.us

Quote:
"We have an aging white America. They are dying. We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him."
-Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas, Arlington, founder of La Raza Unida (The Race United)
www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd180.htm

US Code, Section 1325. Improper entry by alien

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned no

FLETCH2

Monday, April 3, 2006 10:43 PM (P)

But John that can never happen because the British-Commie_Nazi_Jews that run the world wouldn't let it.

Be consistant man. How can we poke fun at you if you cant even keep your delusions straight?

PIRATENEWS

Monday, April 3, 2006 11:03 PM (P)

Fletch2 (Jew Chevy Chase's name in the movie Fletch), your IQ is [* MOD ACTION: personal attacks and flaming are not accepted on these forums -- if this continues, threads will be moved wholesale to troll country and accounts may be suspended *]

Quote:
"Help U.S. Border Patrol Agents Fight Amnesty. While President Bush and many of our politicians are selling us out we need millions of "good hearted" Americans who actually care about what we do to back us up. The country continues to be overrun with thousands more illegal aliens every single day folks. We're losing this battle - big time. This isn't some concocted story, it's a fact from the front lines. If you want to live in a dream world ask the people in Washington D.C. what's going on. They'll confuse you with the pretty talk they learn in politicians' school (classes currently being administered by Vicente Fox in Cancun, Mexico). If you want to know the real story ask us. Amnesty DOES NOT WORK. They tried it in 1986. It was an absolute disaster. George Bush steadfastly refuses to listen to the people who put him in office."
-U.S. BORDER PATROL, LOCAL 2544, TUCSON, ARIZONA
www.local2544.org

"There are some Mexican citizens and some Mexican- Americans who want to see California, New Mexico and other parts of the Southwestern United States given over to Mexico. These groups call it the reconquista, Spanish for reconquest. And they view the millions of Mexican illegal aliens in particular entering the United States as potentially an army of invaders to achieve that takeover."
-Lou Dobbs, CNN News
www.rense.com/general70/raci.htm

"In his speech to the throngs of students, Thomas Kean (the business partner of Bin Laden's family who Bush Jr put in charge of his 9/11 Commission) kept stressing his biggest fear... that the terrorists would smuggle a nuke into this country and set it off. He recommended biometric ID cards for everyone! I thought about the Bush Administration pushing to let the Communist Chinese screen cargo coming through Panama ports, to make sure no nukes get in. The hypocrisy was almost unbearable. It is the same tired old mantra... "give up your freedom or the boogey man will get you". Mr. Kean's admissions that he is not interested in following the money trail, and that the controlled demolition of building 7 is unimportant are ample proof that 9/11 was an inside job, Kean was hired to pull the wool over the eyes of the sheep, and if we give up our liberty to these people, we will never get it back. He did make a few very telling remarks, repeating over and over again that the biggest threat right now is small nuclear devices being smuggled in across our completely unsecured borders and setting off the next escalation of the so-called war on terror."
www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/keane_lecture_southwestern_university
.htm

"The U.S. Senate voted on Wednesday to make President Bush get congressional approval before developing new classes of smaller nuclear weapons, but backed the repeal of a decade-long ban on their study and development. The low-yield weapons would have one-third or less of the force of the bomb dropped on Hiroshima in World War II, which killed more than 100,000 people."
www.antiwar.com/ewens/?articleid=610

"Over the city of Hiroshima, the Enola Gay dropped an 8,900-pound atomic weapon from its specially modified bomb bay. Two thousand feet above the ground, the bomb, dubbed "Little Boy" by its makers, detonated, leveling almost 90% of the city. Local geography spared Nagasaki from the near total devastation suffered by Hiroshima; only one third of the city was destroyed. Fat Man and Little Boy, both weapons of unparalleled destructive power, were actually quite different. Little Boy, fueled by highly enriched uranium-235, was triggered by a simple "gun" mechanism; a small, slug-shaped piece of uranium was fired down a barrel into a larger, cup-shaped piece. This elementary design generated a destructive force of about 15 kilotons—the equivalent of 15,000 tons of TNT. A much more complex implosion-type device trig

FLETCH2

Tuesday, April 4, 2006 12:10 AM (P)

John, you [* MOD ACTION: personal attacks and flaming are not accepted on these forums -- if this continues, threads will be moved wholesale to troll country and accounts may be suspended *]

I've seen Serenity 8 times in the theatre (hint: you need to use your special hand to count that high) and probably a good dozen times on DVD.

I don't work for the government, in fact nobody that does work for the government cares what you think, if you think at all that is.

Fletch is for Fletcher a really good old fashioned Norman "Craft" name like Cooper and Smith. It means maker of arrows. It's less Jewish than yours is in fact. Lee is from middle English, and means a sheltered place like a clearing in a wood that is not used for farming. Useless and sheltered is actually a good description of you... who knew names could be so informative?

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