Illegal immigration
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 22, 2026 17:49
VIEWED: 84215
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[* MOD ACTION: personal attacks and flaming are not accepted on these forums -- if this continues, threads will be moved wholesale to troll country and accounts may be suspended *]
You mean to say that living in Texas makes you love illegal aliens, and all the problems they bring from Mexico? I doubt it.
And you DON'T think there's something wrong with seeing Serenity 8 times in a theater? Unless perhaps at a dollar movie. Why don't you go to a city council meeting, or county commission meeting, or state legislature, and SPEAK in public forum? Or go watch REAL trials for entertainment - and education. It's free, and a lot more fun that sitting on your ass, paying money to someone else. Then you'll see the evil that Hero perps every day, while NEVER seeing illegal aliens under arrest for being illegal aliens, nor their employers.
In Serenity, don't you comprehend the Bad Guys work FOR The Govt? Or do you just like watching The Govt slaughter innocent people with guns and mind control - both in the movie and the Real World?
No wonder USA is losing this Civil War. Enjoy your slavery. While you still can.
These BS sessions are just mental masturbation, compared to actually WORKING to change govt. While it's true that USA is just another pig in the slaughterhouse, dismembered alive by a giant machine as it squeals in horror and agony.... Well, maybe we should just give up and go quietly into the dark night?
But if you're gonna work on a machine, you must first understand its engineering, before you can fix something that's completely broke. Or stop a machine that's trying to dismember you. That means looking at all the dirty, greasy, stinky, poisonous, dangerous components, then getting your hands dirty by fixing it. Maybe risking injury or death from that monster machine. But you can't fix a political machine if you don't understand how it works.
USA was founded on slavery for whites, blacks and natives. At least the natives fought hard and rebelled against slavery, and currently at least have their own little 550 nations inside USA today. I wish WHITES were that smart! Illegal Mexicans are just the new slaves on the auction block. They need to fight for freedom IN Mexico, not USA.
Jewish President Fox tells his citizen/slaves to invade USA, but refuses to give them equal rights and equal pay in Mexico. Jewish Bush Jr refuses to invade Mexico or defend the US border, while merging USA with Mexico, Canada and the British Commonwealth, under his 3rd cousin the Queen (who claims to be a direct descendant of Jewish King David). This is treason, or it would be, if USA actually existed in the New World Order.
The real question is, how to you stop a plane crash, when all the engines are sabotaged and the pilots have bailed out? That's the situation USA is in today. Can it be salvaged, and rebuilt to survive another century? Yes it can, but not by watching the in-flight movie over and over - no matter how good that movie might be.
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What relevance does history hold for today? It can help us to see current events in context.
HISTORY 33D - The Holocaust: Interdisciplinary Perspectives
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This lecture course is designed for undergraduates of all disciplines (natural sciences, social sciences, humanities, fine arts) with no prior college-level coursework in history. It has two goals: to introduce students to the history of one of the most complex and troubling events of the 20th century, and to explore some of the different ways people have attempted to explain it.
I define the Nazi Holocaust as a program to eradicate entire groups of people. This course is designed as an examination of a series of case studies in which methods of different scholarly disciplines are used to attempt to explain why certain events transpired as they did. Some of the core topics we will also look at are: Adolf Hitler, concentration camps, eugenics and euthanasia, KristallnNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
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Originally posted by Phaedra:
For me the marches represent what democracy should look and sound like. A group of people (citizen or not) mobilizing peacefully for their rights.
ILLEGAL immigrants have rights?
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Regardless of how one may feel about immigration, 500,000 marchers at one time sends a powerful message.
In this case, that's a bad thing. Illegal immigrants shouldn't have political clout.
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The people who marched are our neighbors, coworkers, friends and fellow Americans. They deserve respect.
That's a stupid comment. Especially the fellow American part. I'll say it again, THEY'RE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. They are NOT American. If they were American, they wouldn't be illegal immigrants (at least not while they're living in America).
It's a shame that some people are so self-righteous when it comes to these sort of issues that they totally miss the point.
Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.
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Ain't it sweet that drug dealers, slave traders, rapists, armed robbers, serial killers and common criminals can petition OUR govt for BILLIONS of taxdollars in free welfare handouts, at OUR expense, while taking OUR jobs, and opening our nation to terrorist attack? Or if you want to be extra charitable, just call them "American" traitors. Or illegal American traitors.
Most of the employers of illegal aliens are organized crime, no matter what size of their company. Many, if not most, illegals are mules carrying drugs, and the "jobs" in USA are just a cover story for importing drugs like meth, heroin and cocaine. Legalize all drugs by killing Prohibition, and most of the illegal aliens would stay home in Mexico, where they don't have to work very hard. But then the Bush Crime Family would have to get real jobs too, which ain't likely.
The worst part about criminal aliens and NAFTA is that wages in USA will drop to Third World wages, if you're lucky enough to find a job, after most of the jobs are exported. Won't that be special?
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Originally posted by citizen:
Erm, PN's message is that the omnipotent British Queen, head of the British-Commie-Nazi-Jews, who are responcible for everything that has ever happened in the world, ever, are enslaving the people with the power of British-Commie-Nazi-Jew Flouride Telepathy.
Ignoring for a moment that most of his facts are misconceptions and misunderstandings firmly grounded in a complete lack of understanding of Physics, socio-polotics, History and a myriad of other things the fact that he thinks British-Commie-Nazi-Jews did it (not to mention the fact that he spews rhetoric straight out of the 'Big Book of Nazi Propeganda') is enough for me to dismiss his message.
I've ripped his posts and his facts apart before now, his reply is "You would say that! You're one of them, bah hiss!". I'm not one of them, they don't exist.
The level of delusion that sees a man who can barely tie his own shoe laces as the head of a global conspiracy so intricate, complex and well hidden from the popular view such as the BCNJ is staggering.
I don't care who runs that global over arching conspiracy which you (I use the term generally) are the only one capable of uncovering, whether it's Aliens, British-Commie-Nazi-Jews, School children or the Underpants nomes, you're still a nut. Lets be honest here, if there was any truth in what he says the BCNJ would of off'ed him sometime ago, a couple of dogs, a Shotgun and a security light are hardly going to stop a group that's manipulated the entire Human race since the beginning of time.
actually I haven't seen anyone rip PN's facts apart including you. What I have seen is people have diffrent opinions from his own, an diffrent theories, but I've never seen anyone come up with any concrete facts that have disproved anything that he'said.
I'm not saying he's right about everything, or that his opinion is more valid then anyone elses, nor am I saying that anyone should take his opinion theories or information at face value, all I'm saying is that I think its a cop-out and its just to easy to call him a nut case...Why? just because you don't believe what he's saying, I mean you may very well be right maybe he is as you say or not, but even if that is the case does that make the information wrong?
and if its his opinions you that you don't like, for example the British Queen Commie
or whatever, thats an opinion that can be easily dismissed. Seperating the wheat from the chafe shouldn't be to hard!! if your inclined to do soForget about PN the poster for a minute and concentrate on the information, even if its not all right its certainly not all wrong.
and I don't think PN thinks Bush is head of a global conspiracy, I think I've indulged in enough of his post to know that, a puppet Yes, but head I don't think anyone thinks that!!lol, His family is defintely a part of the elite global society..and could it be that maybe you assume to much?., maybe thats why its just so easy to dismiss PN as what do you call it ..A Nut CASE...just some food for thought
PJ
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Originally posted by Righteous9:
Hey Piratejenny,
Yeah, diebold and the like are a big issue.
I basically agree with you. A revolution is what they need. I'm not sure I put the blame on the people at this point, for not rising up. I take the basic premise that people are people, meaning that, if these people have reacted differently in this situation than others have in a different situation, the overall circumstances must be different, even if that circumstance is mindset alone.
And I can't really see it being too heartening, to actually have a revolution(they did revolt against their oppressive government) only to have their chosen leader undermined not only by the people's enemies, but by the United States(if I were to distinguish the two). That's the sort of result that feeds apathy, and teaches helplessness, and quite frankly its the far more common result of a revolution...replace one bad regime with another. I wasn't saying the U.S. was unique for revolting...I was saying it was rare for succeeding in making something better.
The only other thing is I really don't remember a day of our revolution. I can't really claim that "WE" overthrew the British and "WE" earned our freedoms. I didn't earn them any more than the bussers at the restaurant I work at did. Would I fight for such a thing if I were put in the situation? I'd like to think I would, but I don't know.
Aside of those quibbles, I agree with you. In fact, after reading a post of yours before the one you posted to me, I was wondering why I was engaging in this long debate, because in the context of that post, my post didn't seem as well founded. But I never read that one, and just saw a post that, while not wrong in any way, seemed to frame this particular issue by chastising the people who don't have the power(or at least haven't realized the power), rather than the ones who have it and are abusing it. My appologies, if I misinterpreted.
you don't have to apolojise to me for having an opinion and voicing it. I love a good discussion I just think its to easy for us to get stuck in the now..and not look ahead..many people can't look ahead or never think to, because they are to wrapped up in the present. And I can't fault a person of good fortune to feel some compassion, but the facts are the very conditions that illegal immigrants are running away from in their own countries, is the very condition that they are helping to create here.
When the U.S.A becomes a third world nation which it is in the beginning stages now, Where are they going to run to? where are we going to run to?
What many people are failing to realize is that the global elite who run this country and others countries, through old money, royalty,business and poltics, What they want to happen and are working to make happen is third world conditions, where there are only to classes the rich, and the poor and nothing inbetween, where the rich have all the power and the poor have none.
even now as I write this, its almost funny, because to the Power elite, their are no such things as borders, or even nations..its all about them.
Nothing is going to be done about the illegal immigrants coming into this country by the thousands, we all know what the solution to the problem is, but these globalist want this they want choas, they want, discord, they want fear, they want hate, they want to keep people fighting, and working and surviving, because people are easy to control that way, none of this is by chance, its been planned.
I just think as Americans we all need to see this and we all need to band together on this.
PirateNews WROTE:
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The worst part about criminal aliens and NAFTA is that wages in USA will drop to Third World wages, if you're lucky enough to find a job, after most of the jobs are exported. Won't that be special?
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Illegal immigration is something which should not be about party politics. In the end it's about money and people (as was said way above).
Now I've read the entire thread (even PirateNews's ramblings) before saying this.
Illegal aliens are not Americans. Nomatter how much you might like any person "who happen to be illegal," they have most certainly broken several at-least misdemeanor violations of the law and in general do not pay for most of their crimes.
As an analogy, let me introduce the movie Traffic. Yes, if you see it, Traffic might open your eyes a little to what is really going on, and it has everything to do with money and people. Basically... greed.
There are so many people in the world who have not and desire to become Americans... the haves. Estimates are at 11 Million and growing of people who are "jumping the turnstiles" to do things illegally, which in the end allows them to pocket more money. Just for instance at just the monetary effects:
1. Employers (especially small businesses!) are FORCED to hire illegals at cut rates to stay competitive or otherwise they'll go out of business. To enforce this Senate policy will simply drive out small business! (I hear stories about it every day)
2. Insurance rates are going UP because of illegals who can't read road signs/can't drive and get into accidents, and also because many illegals don't have to pay insurance.
3. More people means more consumption of goods, as it was said water supplies in SouthWest towns are getting low... and that's the tip of the iceberg.
4. Many Illegal alien children are being allowed slots in public schools without paying for it... therefore either driving the other parents' costs up or the entire town's property taxes up.
5. Loopholes in the Welfare system have allowed Illegals to be living "off the arm" once they get here. And if you're living off the government... why would you leave?
6. More money now has to be spent in schools and in public areas to make bilingual signs, receipts, etc... so those illegals who can't read English perhaps may not screw up and run over people in sidewalks (which does happen too).
7. Not to mention the amount of crime which has sprung up in the sections of this country full of illegal immigrants. In fact, I've heard several cases now of Illegals who are now convicted US felons being denied deportation because the country doesn't want them anymore!
Eh that's just for starters, there have been other examples made too.
One problem is globalization and capitalism not being held in check. I say globalization because it's global companies who are recruiting people to America through many means (not all legal) and they are the ones hiring the many workers from overseas. I say capitalism because to me, our system of capitalism runs off greed, and greed pushes this whole debate.
Another problem is the differences in State laws. While that Lawyer from Ohio may have strict sentencing for lawbreaking illegals there, here in Massachusetts they actually brought to discussion in the State Senate a bill which would grant Illegal Aliens the ability to get scholarships for college!!! Just one example of many here in the Ted Kennedy state. Speaking of...
Illegal Immigration is the primary issue of one Senator Edward Kennedy (D - MA). He instituted the bill in 1965 to create the laws we have now on the books and disregarded the older law which made things really strict for illegal immigrants. He is the main senator in the senate fighting for these illegal immigrants to get their money, and he was part draftee of this bill too!
My point is, there is a few things to be done - if you're against illegal aliens taking paying (not just low-paying either) jobs away from our working class, do this:
VOTE OUT the Congresspeople who approve these bills! I know my vote is going directly against one Senator Ed (Ted) Kennedy.
JOIN groups like the Minutemen and show how many people dislike Illegal immigration AND illegal immigrants!
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Quote:
Originally posted by PirateJenny:
actually I haven't seen anyone rip PN's facts apart including you. What I have seen is people have diffrent opinions from his own, an diffrent theories, but I've never seen anyone come up with any concrete facts that have disproved anything that he'said.
You haven't huh. Scroll up.
Look at the last thread where he was using a 30 year old picture of a soldier in Ireland to prove that Northern Ireland is currently under martial law.
Most of his facts are choc full of complete and utter nonsense which steadly loses him more credibillity the more he posts. Mixing up MI5 and MI6 is akin to not knowing the difference between the FBI and the CIA and should be the first stop for an conspiracy theory involving the omnipresent British government, as should the fact that the British Queen is merely a figurehead, she has no power. But these little facts get in the way of PN's fantasy, so wheell ya know what, lets just ignore 'em.
Thing is the truth and facts aren't all that great for PN, get in the way of the delusion which lets him put himself in the position of true all American hero fighting the hordes of darkness.
So what he does is cherry picks facts, spins in his direction and simply leaves out anything that doesn't fit. This is a far more insidious process than that which is performed by politicians, since they know they're doing it, PN doesn't.
That having been said I am no fan of spin, whether it's used to twist facts to make Iraq a world super power harbour WMDs and preparing to nuke the US, or if it's used to prove the existence of British-Commie-Nazi-Jews.
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I mean you may very well be right maybe he is as you say or not, but even if that is the case does that make the information wrong?
No, it makes it propaganda and since I already know most of what he's going on about in the un-British-Commie-Nazi-Jew-ified form it interests me, erm, not at all. You see PN doesn't have a divine link to knowledge, we can all see what he sees. The telling thing is that most of us don't see it as proof of British-Commie-Nazi-Jews living under our beds.
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and I don't think PN thinks Bush is head of a global conspiracy, I think I've indulged in enough of his post to know that, a puppet Yes, but head I don't think anyone thinks that!!lol, His family is defintely a part of the elite global society..and could it be that maybe you assume to much?., maybe thats why its just so easy to dismiss PN as what do you call it ..A Nut CASE...just some food for thought
The reason I call him a nut case is because he has come out and said the world is run by British-Commie-Nazi-Jews. It's not.
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When the U.S.A becomes a third world nation which it is in the beginning stages now, Where are they going to run to? where are we going to run to?
What many people are failing to realize is that the global elite who run this country and others countries, through old money, royalty,business and poltics, What they want to happen and are working to make happen is third world conditions, where there are only to classes the rich, and the poor and nothing inbetween, where the rich have all the power and the poor have none.
even now as I write this, its almost funny, because to the Power elite, their are no such things as borders, or even nations..its all about them.
It's called successful capitalism. It's what happens, it's how it's supposed to work.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.
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Well,
Other than detailing that Bannannas and Granite pose the same level of health threat, and pointing out that an actual tac nuke is better than a cargo-container sized bomb for faking a terrorist attack...
It's hard to argue with PirateNews. Each paragraph he posts contains a dozen different refutable facts, and trying to get him to argue just ONE gleans an unfocused response with dozens of additional refutable facts. It's quite frustrating.
I mean, I'd ask him why he thinks Winston Churchill is Jewish, but I fear that instead of detailing his argument in step by step logical methodology, he will shotgun me again. Focus isn't News's strongpoint.
It's also not helpful when he just insults his opponents by calling them Nazi-Jews. I mean, that's not an argument. It's an insult used when you don't have an argument.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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O.K. I'm joining this late and much as I have tried to resist I've just got to say it:
East Angliashire? Where the Fuck is that supposed to be?
Do you by any chance mean East Anglia, the part of England made up of the counties of Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex?
Get an Atlas Redneck.
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Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
Do you by any chance mean East Anglia, the part of England made up of the counties of Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex?
Get an Atlas Redneck.
I'nt East Anglia somewhere in Europe?
CitizenIsJade...
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.
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Originally posted by piratenews:
Another blindingly intelligent conversation from Fletcher2.
Oh I'm sorry, were we having a "conversation?" Call me old fashioned but I always thought a "conversation" involved both sides speaking and both sides listening. I thought you were ranting and I was hurling insults from the peanut gallery. My apologies, had I known this was a "conversation" I would have brought tea and crumpets.
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Can you read the fact that US Border Patrol agents agree with me on their own website?
Even if that were true even a broken watch is right twice a day. You can't even make that average.
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And you DON'T think there's something wrong with seeing Serenity 8 times in a theater? Unless perhaps at a dollar movie.
As a Browncoat that likes this show, has met and likes some of the people in it and who wants there to be a Serenity 2, no I think seeing it 8 times was my way of trying to get my show back. In fact hard cash at the box office the only way that the suits in Hollyweird will ever pay attention. Did you see it in the theatre? Did you buy the DVD or the TV series? Are you a fan of this show or does this board just give you a convenient soap box to spew your hate messages?
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Why don't you go to a city council meeting, or county commission meeting, or state legislature, and SPEAK in public forum?
Well I _would_ but I'm certain that the whole 1776 thing was about making sure that American politics was no longer any of my business.
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In Serenity, don't you comprehend the Bad Guys work FOR The Govt? Or do you just like watching The Govt slaughter innocent people with guns and mind control - both in the movie and the Real World?
Actually it's far more complex than that. There is no evil empire in the Firefly 'Verse, both sides in the unification war believed that they were in the right and that what they did had the noblist of reasons. This is Joss here, he doesn't write black hats and white hats, he writes shades of grey. That's why the Operative lets the crew go in the end rather than just slaughter them because his faith in a perfect world was shattered by Miranda. A typical movie villian is one dimensional and singlemindedly evil to the end. The Operative has beliefs that guide his actions, when his Masters betray those beliefs he can no longer support them.
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Wow, that was special. I love getting into political battles with people, but usually there is more to work with. A few observations regarding your response to my post:
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Originally posted by Khyron:Quote:
Originally posted by Phaedra:
For me the marches represent what democracy should look and sound like. A group of people (citizen or not) mobilizing peacefully for their rights.Quote:
ILLEGAL immigrants have rights?
Hmmm . . . Why yes they do. Fundamental rights (like freedom of speech and the freedom of assembly) apply to all persons, regardless of citizenship status.Quote:
Regardless of how one may feel about immigration, 500,000 marchers at one time sends a powerful message.Quote:
In this case, that's a bad thing. Illegal immigrants shouldn't have political clout.
Well, that's your opinion which you have the right to. Personally I a big fan of the Bill of Rights and the Fourteenth Amendment. The immigration protests have been far better organized and more effective than the recent anti-globalization protest. Also you take for granted that all members of the protest were "illegal immagrants," many were natural born and naturalized citizens who are concerned for the rights of others.Quote:
The people who marched are our neighbors, coworkers, friends and fellow Americans. They deserve respect.Quote:
That's a stupid comment. Especially the fellow American part. I'll say it again, THEY'RE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. They are NOT American. If they were American, they wouldn't be illegal immigrants (at least not while they're living in America).
Well, darlin', technically the contenents are North and South America, which would make them Americans. The colloquial use of the term is misleading since you're infact referring to US citzens.Quote:
It's a shame that some people are so self-righteous when it comes to these sort of issues that they totally miss the point.
I'm sorry, did you have a point. I was simply writing about my impressions having participated in the marches. Once you come up with an articulated point beyond xenophobic rantings, I'll get back to you.
Kisses,
Phaedra (a bad luck name)NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Phaedra, you just want us all to see these illegals as you do- equals to us, human men and women that could be our friends and even family, given the chance, right? Like, if not for the grace of God, we could be them, wanting to be here, is that it? Well, if you think you're gonna change peoples minds here, think again Miss.
Originally posted by Phaedra:
Once you come up with an articulated point beyond xenophobic rantings, I'll get back to you.
But I'm with ya
.Illegal on Earth Chrisisall
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Originally posted by Phaedra:Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:Quote:
ILLEGAL immigrants have rights?
Hmmm . . . Why yes they do. Fundamental rights (like freedom of speech and the freedom of assembly) apply to all persons, regardless of citizenship status.
Uh huh, but fundamental rights isn't what they were protesting about. And those weren't the rights I was referring to, and you know it. Besides, technically I don't think freedom of speech and the freedom of assembly are counted as fundamental rights, but I think we probably both agree that they should be so let's not debate about that.
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Illegal immigrants shouldn't have political clout.
Well, that's your opinion which you have the right to. Personally I a big fan of the Bill of Rights and the Fourteenth Amendment. The immigration protests have been far better organized and more effective than the recent anti-globalization protest. Also you take for granted that all members of the protest were "illegal immagrants," many were natural born and naturalized citizens who are concerned for the rights of others.
I didn't fail to see that not all of them were themselves illegal immigrants, but that doesn't change the fact that those people were amongst all the illegal immigrants protesting for their rights (and to be clear, I'm not talking about fundamental rights, just in case you want to use that as an 'argument'). Rights that they, being ILLEGAL immigrants, aren't entitled to.
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The people who marched are our neighbors, coworkers, friends and fellow Americans. They deserve respect.Quote:
That's a stupid comment. Especially the fellow American part. I'll say it again, THEY'RE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. They are NOT American. If they were American, they wouldn't be illegal immigrants (at least not while they're living in America).
Well, darlin', technically the contenents are North and South America, which would make them Americans. The colloquial use of the term is misleading since you're infact referring to US citzens.
I'm pretty sure I used the word 'American' in the same sense that you did. I find it hard to believe you used 'American' in the inter-continental sense, since nobody does that and it makes that part of your statement sort of trivial (you might as well have said 'our fellow human beings', less prone to misinterpretation).
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I'm sorry, did you have a point. I was simply writing about my impressions having participated in the marches. Once you come up with an articulated point beyond xenophobic rantings, I'll get back to you.
Hah! That's a joke. Where was I xenophobic? In my short response, I mentioned the word 'illegal' three times. I even wrote it in capitals! Doesn't that give you an impression of where my problem lies? I don't have a problem with immigrants, I have a problem with ILLEGAL immigrants. I emphasised that and yet you still decided to ignore that and took the easy way out by calling me a xenophobe. And yes, I did have a point, which you also decided to ignore because of some self-righteous, I'm-better-than-you-because-I-care-for-the-less-fortunate ego trip.
Now, like most people on here, I fully sympathise with the plight of illegal immigrants, I know they don't have easy lives and are essentially good people. However, that doesn't mean it's okay that they enter a country illegally and then demand to have the same rights and freedoms as the people of the country they entered. I don't see why that should be acceptable and why people that disagree with it being acceptable, such as myself, need to defend their positions.
Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.
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Freedom of speech is granted to illegal aliens - but ONLY during their trial by magistrate, as to why they should not be deported immediately. That's the ONLY free speech they have in USA. If they love Mexico so much to wave its flag, then they can go speak in Mexico.
Today, I spoke with a LEGAL alien who is now a US citizen, formerly from England, RAF MOD, now working a hi-tech job. I asked him about the topic of this thread, specifically about "anchor babies". He replied with a string of profanities, too numerous to remember, but they did cover the spectrum of the ENGLISH language.
He pointed out how absurd it is, from a legal point of view, for illegal aliens to have babies in USA, then those babies be considered US citizens, thus granting illegal aliens an exemption to arrest and deportation for their crimes. He pointed out the fact of law that when a foreign tourist has a baby in USA, that baby is NOT counted as a US citizen. So it is a lie for illegal aliens to claim their babies are US citizens. Good point.
When asked if he thought it was a good idea for 30-million illegal aliens to remain in USA with amnesty from Jr Bush, another string of profanities ensued. Of course it is extremely bad for USA to allow these crimes to go unpunished, to paraphrase his comments.
USA is an English speaking country, and he HATES when he's asked whether he wants to speak Spanish to do business in USA, such as for banking and customer service telephone robots, etc. He points out that they don't ask if he wants to speak German or Chinese, so it's very suspicious to only ask about Spanish/Mexican, indicating an AGENDA to overthrow USA via premeditated invasion. I pointed out that NAFTA officially merged USA with Mexico and Canada, making USA now part of the British Commonwealth and British Empire under the Queen. He hadn't thought of that, but wasn't thrilled by the idea, since he has no desire to live in UK under royal tyranny, with GATSO Robocop Spy Cams EVERYWHERE taxing drivers to death. He was not thrilled when I pointed out that a private military contractor in AUSTRAILIA now runs the Robocop Spy Cam Scam here in Knoxville Tennessee, keeping all the profits and replacing police, prosecutors and courts, contrary to the pathological lies spewed by the media mafia and city council, that it's an Arizona company from USA. REDflex does Robocops all over USA, and also does GPS taxation by the mile to turn all roads into toll roads...
www.redflex.com.au
Another thing I did today was legal research on a traffic citation defense, where I'm facing 30 days jail, for alleged driving 5mph. (FIVE mph! not a typo) 30 days jail is the statutory sentence for ALL traffic citations in Tennessee. Does that sound right to you? I audited the public court docket for tickets from this deputy, looking for fixed tickets (theft and extortion), illegal quotas (racketeering and organized crime), and witnesses to perjury from the deputy. One included an obvious illegal alien, no driver license, no address, cannot speak English so he got a govt interpreter. Not one mention in the record of DEPORTATION. Judge gave him time to find a place to live (a fake address), and extorted $500 as a bribe to let this CONVICTED CRIMINAL stay in USA, WITHOUT JAIL. Not a REAL hero to be found. Tennessee's Gangsta Govt has sold driver licenses to over 250,000 illegal aliens, so far, and provides its entire Driver License Handbook in Spanish. Does that sound right to you?
An arrest made by this cop was of a US citizen riding an ATV on the street (safely without causing a crash), for (w)reckless driving, evading arrest and resisting arrest. VERY profitable for court costs... But he can't arrest an illegal alien for criminal trespass?
Quote:
SHOCKING VIDEO DOWNLOAD: 'Atzlan' - The End Of America
http://prisonplanet.com/articles/april2006/040406Aztlan.htm
Immigration Watchdog
April 4 2006
It is imperative that each one of us call our Senators and members of Congress, every day. They are preparing an unlimited guest worker amnesty plan. 20 million ilNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Phaedra, just to get past this anti- or pro-Hispanic thing: what would you say to 10 million illegal Rwandan immigrants?
No matter how I look at it, even if we wanted to gather up all the poor downtrodden of the world (even understanding that it was our fault for trodding on them in the first place) and bring them in with open arms, we couldn't. The history of massive immigration has been exploitation and ghettos, whether the immigrants were Jewish, Irish (and they were English-speaking!), Italian... or Mexican, Honduran, or Guatemalan. There is no way to bring in large numbers of immigrants w/o that result. And frankly, I'm not about to argue for people's right to be exploited, since that simply means that I'll be exploited too.
If we were to actively promote immigration, we would have to
a) change the laws to make them "legal" to work,
b) ensure that all immigres speak, read and write English so that they're not at a language disadvantage: You can't read a Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) or even "Hearing Protection Required" if you can't read English
c) understand their rights as workers.
Then there is the problem of valid driver's licenses and interaction with the law. How do you obtain a license if you can't read the Rule of the Road instruction booklet? Or, do we provide instruction booklets in every language under the sun? And when a cop says "Show me your driver's license and registration" how does an non-speaker know what to do? I know this sounds like farce, but there was an Indian (ie from India) looking for an intruder at night at his brother's business who was shot to death because he didn't understand "Throw down your weapon" and "Stop or I'll shoot".
So- how much money, time, and effort are you going to spend integrating ALL these immigrants? Or, how do you justify letting SOME (Hispanic, or maybe specifically Mexican- it's not quite clear to me which) immigrants slide and putting others (Romanian, Ugandan etc) thru the wringer?
What about Social Security? People are getting taxed for a system that they will probably never collect from.
What about welfare, health insurance, auto insurance, auto registration (do you have any idea how many uninsured, unregistered vehicles are rolling around LA?), education etc?
People who get all bleedy about poor Hispanics (and all huffy about the agreement to leave California, New Mexico and Arizona biligual- which it should be by international agreement) don't seem to realize where their agruments are taking them in a global sense.
So, pleasing neither side, it seems to me that there is a multi-pronged solution to the problem of illegal immigration:
1) Increase Border Patrols and Port Security to the point where it is actually effective. If that means build a wall, then build it.
2) Stop interfering in other nations' internal politics. Unlikely, but since we always seem to come down on the side of the oligarchs that might be a positive thing.
3) Raise our Federal minimum wage. It's counterinutitive- you would think that a higher minimum wage would increase the "draw" into this country- but companies are simply not going to pay a non-English speaking person $9/ hour. And enforce it. If you find a company that violates the minimum wage law, drive them out of business with fines, put their (corporate) head on a pike by the city gates. The other will get the message.
4) Promote real international unionization. US dollars in a Haitian strike fund would go a LONG way in Haiti.
5) Take the current immigrees (Indian, Russian, Phillipine, Chinese) and give them English literacy tests and English classes. If they don't learn to speak the language at a rudimentary level in six months, boot them out.
BTW- My spouse, dad, and my mother's grandparents were all immigrees. They all learned to speak English. Si se puede.
---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.
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I'm not going to weigh in on this topic since it is *very* much a hot button topic for me, and I don't like to get quite that worked up, but I did see this, SignyM:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So, pleasing neither side, it seems to me that there is a multi-pronged solution to the problem of illegal immigration:
[...]
2) Stop interfering in other nations' internal politics. Unlikely, but since we always seem to come down on the side of the oligarchs that might be a positive thing.
[...]
4) Promote real international unionization. US dollars in a Haitian strike fund would go a LONG way in Haiti.
Just as a point of procedure, doesn't implementing (4) violate the principle of (2)?
Amiton.
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No. The first is a military process, the second is an economic one. Maybe what I should have said was: We should stop interfering militarily in other nations. That includes eliminating both overt invasion (which we've done time and time again), military assistance, and covert destabilization.
--------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.
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Quote:*In his best Zoe voice* What? And give up our planet?
Originally posted by SignyM:
Maybe what I should have said was: We should stop interfering militarily in other nations. That includes eliminating both overt invasion (which we've done time and time again), military assistance, and covert destabilization.
Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
Do you by any chance mean East Anglia, the part of England made up of the counties of Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex?
Get an Atlas Redneck.
I'nt East Anglia somewhere in Europe?
CitizenIsJade...
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.
East Anglia in Europe?
Not if I can help it...BACK OFF BRUSSELS!!!
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I don't see anyone asking the question---why are there so many illegal immigrants here now? Why are so many illegal immigrants Hispanic? While I sort of understand the suggestion of trying to imagine them as 10 million Rwandans, I think that circumvents the historical relationship between the US and Latin American countries. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but when we are reading in the media that there are between 11-12 million illegal immigrants here, I think that refers to all, regardless of origin, not only Hispanics? Does anyone have numbers for this sub-group?
In any case, I'm going to borrow a phrase from the title of a book by Juan Gonzalez "Harvest of Empire". The U.S. has a long-standing policy of destabilizing Latin American governments. All in the cause of bringing democracy to our neighbors...it has been an utter failure. Look at the result in Chile, Paraguay, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Nicaragua, to name a few. Instead of military intervention and political subterfuge, perhaps we could have invested in Latin America instead of exploiting it for cheap labor. Anyway, damage done. They are here because we were there. It's a done deal. So what now? I'm sorry to say, I think the arguments many of you are making are desparate ones. Too little, too late. Where were you when Trujillo was using the Dominican Republic as his personal playground and murdering anyone who looked at him the wrong way? How about when Pinochet's minions were throwing tires over people (los quemados) and burning them alive?
NAFTA set up the way for maquiladoras in Mexico who pulled out when cheaper labor became available in Asia. Europe has its own harvest of empire--that's where the Africans are going. The Buddhists call this karma or the simple law of cause and effect. What I mean is, we need to look at the whole picture here...compassionate responsiblity is not just for idiots who stare at their navels.
If I'm getting a little sketchy..up past my bedtime...forgive me. Ok, here it is. The America you are trying to preserve is already gone. Spanish IS the second language in the US. Have you called FedEx lately, Verizon, your utility company? If you go into the Department of Motor Vehicles, the written test is offered in Spanish. Chinese will soon be our third language. And I have to say, why the h*** not? Europeans speak 2 or 3 languages. Hispanics, believe it or not, do value education (however as my father says "it's hard to get an education on an empty stomach"), and are taught English in their schools. Yes, they are....I have cousins who speak English without an accent who have NEVER lived in the US. Doesn't anyone go to Chinatown, Little Italy, Queens, NY for chrissake...what about all the German and Scandinavian immigrants that settled throughout the Midwest and up into Oregon? Do you think Grandmother and Grandfather spoke English? It does really make me think, it's the brown-ness that upsets people. If Holland was under water and all the Dutch came here, would you notice, would you mind? I'm not saying this is watertight conclusion--feel free to tell me I'm wrong and why.
And by the way, many immigrants, legal or not, do learn English. I volunteer at a small language school that offers classes for immigrants and refugees. They come to learn after working 14 hours a day. Or after spending day after day in isolation raising their kids, with no one to talk to, because their spouse is the one with 2 jobs. Oh, except they can't take morning classes anymore. The Dept of Education cut funding, so the school can only offer night classes now. Go figure.
If Latin American economies don't improve, workers will continue to look for opportunies elsewhere. Why did European immigrants come here in the 19th and 20th centuries? This situation can not be changed by force. Can we go house to house and chase people back over the border with brooms? Many have been here for over 20 years. Not a good enough reason? Worked for the early American settlers (this land is your land, this land is my land...).
And for the record, m
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I just wanted to comment that I don't think the US intervened to set up democracies in Central and South America. For the most part it was setting up business partners - dictators - to exploit the region.
However, I also think that the US does need to tighten up its borders, considering that the Administration is not about to prosecute employers or raise the minimum wage. Having massive illegal cross-border traffic is a security risk.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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Warning! US Senate Amnesty bill contains in-state tuition for illegals!
Quote:
Contact: William Gheen, Americans for Legal Immigration (ALIPAC)
WilliamG@alipac.us (866) 329-3999
The controversial proposal to give illegal aliens taxpayer subsidized in-state tuition at American universities is included in the immigration "reform" bill that also contains the Guest Worker Amnesty proposals according to the Washington Times!
Nine states allow illegal aliens to receive the in-state tuition rates.
"If this bill passes, the American taxpayers will be forced to pay for illegal aliens to replace their own children in the limited seats in college" says William Gheen of ALIPAC. "Professional polls in North Carolina show over 81% opposition to in-state tuition for illegal aliens. It is bad enough the Senate is proposing Guest Worker Amnesty. Now they want us to pay college tuition for illegal aliens!"
www.alipac.us/article1135.html
What do you expect from a Senate controlled by Reaver CanniBill Frist MD, who was busted for Medicare fraud, paid an $840-MILLION criminal fine for his felonious Hospital Corporation of America, then was elected to the US Senate, and promoted to Speaker of the Senate in his freshman term...
Quote:
The Mexican solution
How the Mexican govt arrests illegal aliens in Mexico
By Frank J. Gaffney, Jr.
The Washington Times
April 4, 2006
In fact, as a just-published paper by the Center for Security Policy's J. Michael Waller points out, under a constitution first adopted in 1917 and subsequently amended, Mexico deals harshly not only with illegal immigrants. It treats even legal immigrants, naturalized citizens and foreign investors in ways that would, by the standards of those who carp about U.S. immigration policy, have to be called "racist" and "xenophobic."
www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/Mexicos_Glass_House.pdf
For example, according to an official translation published by the Organization of American States, the Mexican constitution includes the following restrictions:
• Pursuant to Article 33, "Foreigners may not in any way participate in the political affairs of the country." This ban applies, among other things, to participation in demonstrations and the expression of opinions in public about domestic politics like those much in evidence in Los Angeles, New York and elsewhere in recent days.
• Equal employment rights are denied to immigrants, even legal ones. Article 32: "Mexicans shall have priority over foreigners under equality of circumstances for all classes of concessions and for all employment, positions or commissions of the Government in which the status of citizenship is not indispensable."
• Jobs for which Mexican citizenship is considered "indispensable" include, pursuant to Article 32, bans on foreigners, immigrants and even naturalized citizens of Mexico serving as military officers, Mexican-flagged ship and airline crew, and chiefs of seaports and airports.
Article 55 denies immigrants the right to become federal lawmakers. A Mexican congressman or senator must be "a Mexican citizen by birth." Article 91 further stipulates that immigrants may never aspire to become cabinet officers, as they are required to be Mexican by birth. Article 95 says the same about Supreme Court justices.
In accordance with Article 130, immigrants -- even legal ones -- may not become members of the clergy, either.
• Foreigners, to say nothing of illegal immigrants, are denied fundamental property rights. For example, Article 27 states, "Only Mexicans by birth or naturalization and Mexican companies have the right to acquire ownership of lands, waters and their appurtenances, or to obtain concessions for the exploitation of mines or of waters."
• Article 11 guarantees federal protection against "undesirable aliens resident in the country." What is more, private individuals are authorized to make citizen's arrests. Article 16 states, "In cases of flagrante delicto, any person may arrest the offNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
What can I say. Once again the political game takes precedence over common sense.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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Quote:I don't disagree on any particular point, sir.
Originally posted by milagrobean:
Anyway, damage done. They are here because we were there. It's a done deal.
The America you are trying to preserve is already gone.
Wow, that was a comprehensive post Chrisisall
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Quote:I don't think the question is what to do about illegals already here. I think the issue is how to change the factors involved. The US government corporation is far too greedy to either prosecute employers or raise the minimum wage. But as a measure of self-preservation the US does need to secure its borders.
Anyway, damage done. They are here because we were there. It's a done deal.
The America you are trying to preserve is already gone.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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Quote:
Originally posted by old england dry:
Do you by any chance mean East Anglia, the part of England made up of the counties of Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex?
I lived in Oxfordshire, aka Oxon, and can't resist using the word "shire" in a sentence. East Angliashire is populated by hobbits. Are you a hobbit? I used to hang out in JRR Tolkein's bar & grill in Oxford. Just your usual gang of drunken trolls and goblins.
www.minutemanhq.com
Quote:
Migrants Find a Gold Rush in New Orleans
Word spread to Latino laborers as Katrina's floodwaters ebbed: There is work with good money and no questions about papers.
By Sam Quinones
LA Times
April 4, 2006
As the floodwaters of Hurricane Katrina receded in September, roads filled with residents leaving the city, their cars, SUVs and moving vans jammed with what they had salvaged of their lives.
But another mass movement was taking place on the other sides of the highways.
Thousands of men from Mexico and Central America were driving into the city. Word had spread throughout the Latino immigrant diaspora in America that the city had plenty of work, construction wages had doubled to $16 an hour and no one was asking for papers.
www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-labor4apr04%2C0%2C685
8623.story
There are still at least 500 corpses rotting in their homes, while the survivors are still not allowed to return to their homes, nor allowed to work. But illegal aliens terrorists are welcome, especially to work for the Jewish casino robber barons. 100,000 homes in New Orleans are scheduled for demolition, even tho most are repairable, but Gangsta Govt won't allow it.
Quote:
Mexican troops arrive Thursday afternoon in Bexar County, Texas, as they make their way towards KellyUSA in San Antonio to bring aid for Hurricane Katrina victims. Metro photo by William Luthers ©2005 San Francisco Chronicle
On September 8, the Mexican Army was received with honors at Kelly Air Force Base by the mayor of San Antonio, Texas. Local news channels noted the fact that the Mexican Army operated on U.S. soil after 159 years of absence, last time being the Mexican American War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina
www.infowars.com/articles/us/mexican_troops_enter_texas_armed.htm
Mexican troops attack United States
In what can only be called a military attack, Mexican troops brandishing weapons stole contraband worth millions of dollars while holding Border Patrol agents at gunpoint. The media spins the story as if it were a standoff. A standoff would have been if no one got the dump truck or the drugs. There have now been over 800 killed in the South Texas border zone in the last year. Car bombs in Dallas, machine-gunning deaths on a daily basis, the US Mission has been shut down in Neuvo Laredo because of persistent rocket-propelled grenade attacks. The border incident occurred Thursday evening when Border Patrol agents attempted to pull over a dump truck on Interstate 10 in Hudspeth County, Texas. The driver fled from the agents, exiting the freeway and driving toward the Rio Grande which runs within 2 miles of the interstate in this portion of West Texas. The driver abandoned the truck after it became stuck in the river bed, escaping into Mexico. Agents called for reinforcement from the Texas state troopers and Hudspeth County sheriff and began unloading the haul – estimated to have been nearly 3 tons – when everything changed. Officers "started to retrieve the bundles when the armed subjects appeared," said Agent Ramiro Cordero, Border Patrol spokesman. According to Hudspeth County Chief Deputy Mike Doyal, the dump truck driver returned with armed men, some of whom drove "official looking vehicles with overhead lights." Some of those armed, Doyal told the El Paso Times, appeared to be Mexican soldiers in uniform with military weapons. As both sides faced off, a bulldozer appeared froNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
If we were to actively promote immigration, we would have to
a) change the laws to make them "legal" to work,
b) ensure that all immigres speak, read and write English so that they're not at a language disadvantage: You can't read a Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) or even "Hearing Protection Required" if you can't read English
c) understand their rights as workers...
...So, pleasing neither side, it seems to me that there is a multi-pronged solution to the problem of illegal immigration:
1) Increase Border Patrols and Port Security to the point where it is actually effective. If that means build a wall, then build it.
2) Stop interfering in other nations' internal politics. Unlikely, but since we always seem to come down on the side of the oligarchs that might be a positive thing.
3) Raise our Federal minimum wage. It's counterinutitive- you would think that a higher minimum wage would increase the "draw" into this country- but companies are simply not going to pay a non-English speaking person $9/ hour. And enforce it. If you find a company that violates the minimum wage law, drive them out of business with fines, put their (corporate) head on a pike by the city gates. The other will get the message.
4) Promote real international unionization. US dollars in a Haitian strike fund would go a LONG way in Haiti.
5) Take the current immigrees (Indian, Russian, Phillipine, Chinese) and give them English literacy tests and English classes. If they don't learn to speak the language at a rudimentary level in six months, boot them out.
The crux of your post SygnyM. I have a few things to point out about some of your points:
a.) "Change the laws to make them "legal" to work"
This basically gives illegal aliens a free pass into the U.S. without earning it. Something MANY legal immigrants do not appreciate or support is that our laws are such that the lawbreakers are getting ahead. Unless you're saying to broaden our current legal immigration capabilities, which I wholeheartedly agree with. I'm of the opinion that Ellis Island should never have been closed.
b.) "Ensure that all immigres speak, read and write English so that they're not at a language disadvantage..."
Who's going to pay for this? Not only are illegal aliens ALREADY getting this benefit if they want it in many states, but many are instead fighting to make everything multilingual! It does drain state economies - are you saying you want to make this a Federal program?
c.) "Understand their rights as workers..."
Find me the money to try and enforce this. Many employers (to stay afloat) hiring illegal aliens do it under the table. Giving someone who isn't even a member of the country rights is the first step towards MORE abuse of the system.
1.) "Increase Border Patrols and Port Security to the point where it is actually effective."
While I agree, the $$$$ for this is going to be ultra-expensive. Perhaps even more expensive than OIF, except it would be a yearly bill. At the moment I'm thinking we should privatize the Border Patrols to groups like the Minutemen as well as beefing up our ICE personnel.
2.) "Stop interfering in other nations' internal politics. Unlikely..."
Highly unlikely. Global economy = Global concern with politics, diplomacy, and military strategy. They all are tied together and it has been proven in U.S. history what happens when we try to take a more isolationist stance.
3.) "Raise our Federal minimum wage."
I wish you were joking. Raising the minimum wage will force MORE businesses, especially small businesses, to hire people (= illegal aliens) under-the-table since they couldn't pay for the insurance and wages of the average worker. Raising the minimum wage benefits Unions the most, small companies and minimum wage workers the least.
If we do as you say, many small businesses in America will go OUT of business, because they are the people most negatively affected by increasing minimum wage. And I'd love to know how to pay for the manpower
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Quote:You frakin' people [* MOD ACTION: personal attacks and flaming are not accepted on these forums -- if this continues, threads will be moved wholesale to troll country and accounts may be suspended *]
Originally posted by Brewski:
A little over 1,000 hours might teach them not to be here illegally. Yes, it would make them feel like prisoners, and that's the point actually. It is ILLEGAL, after all.
The words 'illegal' and 'legal' keep popping up here as if they were important or something.
What's 'legal' about destablizing a government and allowing the new DICTATOR you put in place to torture his people to death at a whim???
This is a nation of LAW BREAKERS. We bend the law till it breaks, then find the loopholes and the scapegoats. Peeps that don't see this are blind and/or stupid. What did Mal say?
"Chickens come home to roost."
Oh, that's right, no real messages in the show and movie we all love; it's just entertaining action, right?
We f**k with the world, and expect no ramifications, 'cause that's our 'manifest destiny'.
How arrogant.
Quote:
"He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man and gave him what for.
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton the man they call Jayne!
Strange socialist/humanist tag for this particular thread, huh?
You really need to READ Milagro's post above.
Breakin' it down for ya Chrisisall
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www.rense.com
So with so few criminal Mexicans in Tennessee, why would TN Govt print its driver license handbook and tests in Spanish? Why would TN Govt sell 250,000 driver licenses to ILLEGAL aliens, without arresting and deporting them? Could it be... TREASON?! AND NOTE THE TERRORIST SUICIDE BOMBER EAGLE CARRYING A STICK OF TNT!
Quote:
Mexican illegal invaders plot Brown Out on Communist May Day in USA
Militant, seditious Mexican and Latin American organizations are calling for a "brown out" on May 1, 2006 (a pagan holiday). Illegals should stay home from work that day, a day that will allegedly "bring the American economy to its knees." Navito Lopez, president of the Mexican American (notice Mexican comes before American) Political Association said that one day without illegals working would "send a stern message to Washington." Hear! Hear! I say go for it! What arrogance. These jokers promoting this stop work day live in a dream world if they think a few million illegals skipping work for one day is going to even cause a ripple in our economy. If 50-75 million natural born Americans and legally naturalized citizens stopped work for one day, that would send a thundering message.
www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/30/105135.shtml?s=et
www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd181.htm
"You can't stop the signal!"
-Mr Universe, Pirate TV
FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO (VERSION 2)
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php
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Quote:It did exactly what it was intended to do, so in that sense it was an utter success: It created lots and lot of poor people and kept the landowners, generalissimos and corporate interests in power and put nations into debt bondage
The U.S. has a long-standing policy of destabilizing Latin American governments. All in the cause of bringing democracy to our neighbors...it has been an utter failure.
Quote:I could add Russia, Iran, Afghanistan, and Indonesia. As Citizen said- capitalism at work!
Look at the result in Chile, Paraguay, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Nicaragua, to name a few.
Quote:Umm... in early high school? Why not bring up the Contras? I was protesting at that time. Anyway, there is no special realtionship between the US and Latin America. The USA has fucked over the whole world. The only resaon why there are so many Latinos here is because it's easier to walk or hop a train than to catch a ride in a cargo container.
Instead of military intervention and political subterfuge, perhaps we could have invested in Latin America instead of exploiting it for cheap labor. Anyway, damage done. They are here because we were there. It's a done deal. So what now? I'm sorry to say, I think the arguments many of you are making are desparate ones. Too little, too late. Where were you when Trujillo was using the Dominican Republic as his personal playground and murdering anyone who looked at him the wrong way? How about when Pinochet's minions were throwing tires over people (los quemados) and burning them alive?
I sense some happy revenge in your post: the US has been a bad neighbor and deserves to get overrrun by the poor people that it has created. Well, maybe some of us deserve to be pitted at the bottom of the barrel against each other because of sheer stupidity, laziness and corruption... but not all of us. You make the same mistake that you accuse others of making: prejudicial generalization. And in the end, who wins? Not you. Not me. Only the very, very wealthy.
So, how do we fix the situation? The guest worker program that Bush proposes is indentured servitude to the corporations. Is THAT what you want?
---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:You frakin' people make me laugh.
Originally posted by Brewski:
A little over 1,000 hours might teach them not to be here illegally. Yes, it would make them feel like prisoners, and that's the point actually. It is ILLEGAL, after all.
The words 'illegal' and 'legal' keep popping up here as if they were important or something.
They ARE important to ME. But I guess I'm one of these so-called idiots who played by the rules and got ahead. Just like millions of legal immigrants, and just like millions of Americans.
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
What's 'legal' about destablizing a government and allowing the new DICTATOR you put in place to torture his people to death at a whim???
I'm a little confused. Are we talking about Afghanistan, Iraq, or V is for Vendetta? I pick none of the above.
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
This is a nation of LAW BREAKERS. We bend the law till it breaks, then find the loopholes and the scapegoats. Peeps that don't see this are blind and/or stupid. What did Mal say?
"Chickens come home to roost."
Oh, that's right, no real messages in the show and movie we all love; it's just entertaining action, right?
We f**k with the world, and expect no ramifications, 'cause that's our 'manifest destiny'.
How arrogant.
Ok, so let's be isolationist then. All that will happen is World War III, since World War I and II we tried to also stay out of until all our friend countries came crying for help or we got attacked ourselves. We are a part of the world, and in that case we have a role to play. I kind've like being the Big dude on the block protecting others.
One thing is very true though - this illegal alien issue is a direct ramification of our society being the richest, spoiled rotten, corrupt one on the face of the Earth. I'd love to hear some ideas from you as to how to fix it.
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Strange socialist/humanist tag for this particular thread, huh?
Originally posted by Brewski:
"He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man and gave him what for.
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton the man they call Jayne!
You really need to READ Milagro's post above.
Breakin' it down for ya Chrisisall
Speaking of arrogant -
Calling me arrogant, attacking my signature, then telling me to read some drivel I already read (which SygnyM just broke down beautifully), then telling me you "broke it down" for me tells me all I need to know about your arrogant opinion of me.
My signature is all about how a group of people take something real and make a fantastic tale out of it... so fantastic hardly any of the tale is true. Making heros out of criminals is absurdly funny to me... kind've why I'm laughing right now about your post, Chrisisall.
______________________________________________________
"He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man and gave him what for.
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton the man they call Jayne!
http://boxofficebrewery.com
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Quote:
Start an Illegal Alien internment camp where if they are caught and owe the government money (fines, taxes, etc), they work to pay it off. Basically it would be similar to efforts going on in Arizona now. If they owe something like $10,000, then they would work at minimum wage until they paid it off. A little over 1,000 hours might teach them not to be here illegally. Yes, it would make them feel like prisoners, and that's the point actually. It is ILLEGAL, after all.
Please tell me my eyes are deceiving me, are you serious did you really say internment camp, You can't be serious??? that sounds like something a Nazi would say, you would really like to see people in an internment camp?
The answer is real simple..its so simple its almost ridiculous..penalize the businesses that hire them, fine them and take them to court, I see you constantly making excuses for businesses when its their fault this is happening. if some people go out of business OH well too bad!!, if there has to be some casualties in all of this I would rather see some businesses take the fall, in the long run we'll all be better off.
and raising the mininum wage would be an excellent idea, all they have to do is raise the price of goods and services which I also think is an excellent idea, Americans consume way to much anyway it wouldn't hurt us a bit to conserve and consume less.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brewski:
I'm a little confused. Are we talking about Afghanistan, Iraq, or V is for Vendetta? I pick none of the above.
Off the top of my head how about General Pinochet. The American Government helped over throw the democratically elected, but unfriendly government, for the friendly but brutal unelected dictator.
There's more.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.
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Addition to my response to Milagro:
But to answer your question about the reaction to an influx of Dutch v an influx of Latinos (and how this demonstrates that USAers don't like "brown" people): I suspect that the problem is not "race" but class and culture. If the USA were to be inundated with the middle class of any country that believes and behaves as the middle class does here, it would be better tolerated. The problem is that MOST immigrees are poor, rural, relatively uneducated. If you think this isn't the case, look at the epithets against the Irish who were white and English speaking... but poor, uneducated, and rurral.
In addition, la mordita is a fixture of everyday life. And some immigrants seem to display an unwarranted sense of entitlement with just a smidge of vengeance. Who in their right mind would want to welcome people whose basic motivation seems to be "And chingada to you too"?
As far as making everything bi- or multi-lingual: A friend much smarter than I once said "There are no nations, just language groups." Here's one example: the borders of Poland (my heritage) have been drawn, redrawn, and even erased. Poland was ruled by foreign monarchies for many years. How do the Poles maintain their sense of identity? The language, of course. Then look at Canada. They have had no end of troubles with the Quebecois. India has over 400 languages, and China has about a dozen, but each nation has an "official" language which everyone must learn.
So, I would add one more point to my list of solutions: Make English the official language of the USA, with exceptions for the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.
---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.
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Quote:I was calling the general perception that we (the US government) may do what we want with the rest of the world arrogant, not you specifically.
Originally posted by Brewski:
Calling me arrogant, attacking my signature, then telling me to read some drivel I already read
But referring to Milagro's post as drivel has me re-thinkin' that.
How about we take some of the fat, lazy welfare slurping trash from our society and export them to Mexico to make room for some hard working immigrents?
And yes, I know there are some fat, lazy immigrents waiting to get legal so they, too, can be welfare slurping.
I mean to say, let's not draw a line and say "Them, bad- we, good."
And if you're serious about internment camps, well, then I won't take up any more of your time. Your copy of Mein Kamph is waiting.
(Okay, I got my jab in; I just hope you're NOT serious...)
Scapegoating folk is the first step towards being a good Nazi Chrisisall
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Quote:And look how our society has suffered from those rowdy drunken micks. No Lucky Charms, that bunch.
Originally posted by SignyM:
The problem is that MOST immigrees are poor, rural, relatively uneducated. If you think this isn't the case, look at the epithets against the Irish who were white and English speaking... but poor, uneducated, and rurral.
(Half Irish m'self, just goofing)
Quote:
Who in their right mind would want to welcome people whose basic motivation seems to be "And chingada to you too"?
Okay, that's a point of solid agreement with me.
There's no easy answer to the problem of human garbage. It exists worldwide.
Legalize drugs and take the wind out of the drug trade. Give gangs no reason to fight or exist?
Life in prison to all who commit a crime of violence or use a gun?
Make prostitution legal and cut the legs out from under the slave-sex industry?
....just rambling....
I do agree about the national language thing tho Chrisisall
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Quote:Citizen, you're the only one who understands my full meaning.
Originally posted by citizen:
Off the top of my head how about General Pinochet. The American Government helped over throw the democratically elected, but unfriendly government, for the friendly but brutal unelected dictator.
(Me and my wife and son will be on flight 0071 landing in London tomorrow at 6am, can you meet us under the plane (baggage) and sneak us to your place? I want to illegally immigrate to the land of tea and biscuits to find my fortune...)
Code name: Dinsdale Chrisisall
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I'm not of mixed minds on illegal immigration (it's illegal) but on the solution. What I'm casting about for is a solution that improves everyone's life. Unfortunately, while the solution will require that the USA stop supporting dictatorships abroad (whether they be military or corporate), promote a middle class at home, secure the borders and promote a common language (Chris, let's talk!) the only "solutions" that our money-corrupted Congress is likely to vote for are the ones that put illegals into corporate indentured servitude. And they'll gut the middle class by using the survival fears of the middle class itself.
---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.
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Quote:Good ideas, but I'm afraid they're hard at work making sure the middle class is dismantled,
Originally posted by SignyM:
promote a middle class at home, secure the borders and promote a common language
securing borders must be shown to be profitable in some immediate way, and a common language would be something that would help make 'them' more a part of 'us', and governments like having a 'them' nearby, in case a problem arises that needs blame assigned.
Progressive government will help, if it comes. Hell, conservative government would help, but not the whatever-it-is-we-have-now government.
Chrisisall
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I found this in the Opinion section of our "state" newspaper...
Kathleen Parker, Tribune Media Services.
I suspect that the sight of so many people demanding rights to which they have no legal claim will not help the cause of illegals in this country. Let's just say that convincing others of one’s desire to become an American citizen would be more effective if one were to do so in English – while waving an American flag. When in America, I always say, do as the Americans. Speak English. Otherwise, I’m over-the-top pro-Latino and pro-immigrant.
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I agree with a lot of you guys, that illegal immigration is killing the U.S. I think that they are not American citizens, and, therefore, aren't entitled to the rights in the constitution. I also agree that we need to send them back.
The problem is that sending them all back and building a wall is a short term solution. In order to actually fix the problem, we need to fix the roots of the problem. Over the last century, the U.S. has interfered in the affairs of South and Central America intending to destroy their economies, and keep them weak and reliant on the U.S. and it's corporations. More recently, the U.S. has used the World Bank's International Monetary Fund (IMF) as a front for this meddling.
The IMF has succeeded. One example of their success is Argentina. Argentina was once one of the fastest growing economies in South America. They were also one of the wealthiest. Then they took an IMF loan, and the rest is history. The IMF, as part of the terms of their loan, forced Argentina to cancel all public works programs, health benefits, retirement benefits, welfare, etc... In 18 months, Argentina went through five different governments, each one overthrown because it was still saddled with the debt, and still unable to pay under the IMF's terms. The Method has worked so well, that, now, the rest of Latin America is in poverty also. They are reliant on the U.S.'s corporations to develope, and run their industries. The IMF, however, didn't realize what the blowback from this manipulation would be. That blowback has come in the form of a massive wave of immigration, illegal and legal as people flee from unstable and poor conditions.
Only by fixing what the IMF has done, can we really solve this crisis. If you want to read about how the U.S. has really manipulated the world to serve its own ends, you should read The Sorrows of Empire, by Chalmers Johnson. It is very extensive in its coverage of U.S. global activity, and, best of all, it's backed up by real, honest-to-God facts, unlike the delusional, vaguly fact-like material that PN keeps pulling out of his pi-gu.
I would advise you to pick it up soon. It has started to disappear from most bookshelves lately.
You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.
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USA's first official flag
www.foundingfathers.info/stories/gadsden.html
Here's progress: US schools all over USA ban US flags...
Quote:
Schools Ban Patriotic Clothes, Flags
NBC
April 6 2006
SAN DIEGO -- In the wake of last week's immigration-reform protests, one school district is taking drastic measures, banning all symbols of patriotism, both U.S. and Mexican.
Beginning Monday, the Oceanside Unified School District is banning all flags and patriotic clothing.
Keith Brentlinger displays the U.S. flag outside Hatter, Williams and Purdy, his Oceanside business.
"To me, it's everything," said Brentlinger "I mean, like I said -- we truly live in the greatest country in the world."
Brentlinger said he was shocked on Tuesday when marching immigration-reform protesters tore down the flag outside his business.
"Some of them just grabbed the flag, and pulled it off its aluminum pole, and it got ripped," said Brentlinger.
Brentlinger told NBC 7/39 that he put up a new flag the next day.
"Some protesters drove up in their car and snagged the flag from our building and took off," said Brentlinger. "I was extremely, extremely upset. I mean, it was just ... insulting is the word."
VIDEO DOWNLOAD: US FLAGS DESTROYED BY ILLEGAL ALIENS, US SCHOOL BANS US FLAGS
www.nbcsandiego.com/news/8439483/detail.html
Flag waving banned at Colo. school
News 14
Charlotte, North Carolina
4/1/2006
LONGMONT, Colo. -- Dozens of high school students protested a temporary school policy forbidding students from displaying the U.S. flag — as well as flags from other countries — amid racial tensions following immigration rallies.
Skyline High School Principal Tom Stumpf said American flags were brazenly waved in the faces of Hispanic students and in one case a Mexican flag was thrown into the face of another student.
www.news14charlotte.com/content/top_stories/default.asp?ArID=116833
Marshall County School Officials Ban US Flags From Parades
Wave 3 TV
April 1, 2006
BENTON, Ky - Flags bearing stars and bars are a common sight during this western Kentucky town's Tater Day festivities.
But the Confederate flag -- and any other flag for that matter -- will no longer be welcome in the Marshall County High School parking lot when students drive to school and hold parades during the festivities.
Senior Raeanne McKendree, 18, said she supports the rule and thinks most other students at the school agree with it.
"You don't have freedom of speech at school," she said. "The school should be able to prevent it, just like they tell us not to wear certain T-shirts or say certain words."
In Arizona, a school superintendent banned students from wearing flags of any kind in any form after a group of Hispanic students at the school took down the American flag from a pole, raised the Mexican flag, then watched as white students took it down and burned it.
In Colorado, dozens of high school students protested a temporary ban on flags amid racial tensions following immigration rallies. One school official said the symbols were being used as "misguided patriotism."
www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=4712745
Funny how Gangsta Govt wants to crush "misguided" patriotism and free speech... Funny how some students in the mind-kontrol slave camps agree with that scam, especially those who are officers in "student govt". I was VP of my freshman class in college, elected in an actual election. When disabled by Gulf War Sabotaged Vaccine and Nuke Radiation Syndrome, I went back to college, but ELECTIONS WERE BANNED, replaced by "appointed student govt" who "applied" for an "interview". Appointed members of student "govt" then got 2 weeks of intense brainwashing at a "summer camp", before they were allowed to "represent" the students. I wonder if they were forced to worship Molech and perform "mock" human sacrifice, like the Bushes do at Bohemia
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We are all children of war....I harbor no sense of revenge, suffering is suffering everywhere. You are reading me incorrectly. I am stating the facts as I see them, sitting in a different seat then you are. I have not accused anyone of anything. And nowhere did I say that the US deserves a fate worse than death. Aren't you tired of being afraid? I am.
I don't agree that there is no special relationship between US and Latin America. Latin America has been the US's backyard. The US government has treated sovereign nations as colonies with the justification that what is done is done in the best interests of the US. A banana republic, a phrase that has floated in and out of my awareness, is a republic that exists to keep the colonial powers supplied with all those good things we can't imagine now doing without. I was doing some reading on FDR's "Good Neigbor" policy and found an address he gave on Pan-American day in 1933 and another speech he gave the same year: http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/johnson/fdrgnp.htm
http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/johnson/fdrwwcomm.htm
Then, these photos of the Roosevelts with dictators and corrupt leaders of Nicaragua, the Dominican Republic and Cuba: http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/good-neighbor.htm
Food for thought....
Today I thought, we all could take to the streets, banging pots, shouting "we're taking our country back" and along with that, show solidarity with all people who want to be free from suffering, free to work, and put food on the table and have a few little dreams come true. Daydream of a poet...I like it better than a wall. Below, a link on "si se puede"
http://www.labornet.org/viewpoints/meister/sisepuede.htm
Don't know how we're going to fix it...the past is the past, still one must understand how we got here. We ARE the Americas.
milagrobean
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Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:Quote:
Start an Illegal Alien internment camp where if they are caught and owe the government money (fines, taxes, etc), they work to pay it off. Basically it would be similar to efforts going on in Arizona now. If they owe something like $10,000, then they would work at minimum wage until they paid it off. A little over 1,000 hours might teach them not to be here illegally. Yes, it would make them feel like prisoners, and that's the point actually. It is ILLEGAL, after all.
Please tell me my eyes are deceiving me, are you serious did you really say internment camp, You can't be serious??? that sounds like something a Nazi would say, you would really like to see people in an internment camp?
The answer is real simple..its so simple its almost ridiculous..penalize the businesses that hire them, fine them and take them to court, I see you constantly making excuses for businesses when its their fault this is happening. if some people go out of business OH well too bad!!, if there has to be some casualties in all of this I would rather see some businesses take the fall, in the long run we'll all be better off.
and raising the mininum wage would be an excellent idea, all they have to do is raise the price of goods and services which I also think is an excellent idea, Americans consume way to much anyway it wouldn't hurt us a bit to conserve and consume less.
First point: It's not a "fascist" or "Nazi" thing to find a way to enforce the current laws of this country. I'm hardly alone with this idea, and pretty much all the people who want illegals to pay their taxes and fines are hard-working paying citizens. If I didn't already know how much it costs to have prisons, I wouldn't have said internment camps. In all actuality, I'd rather they serve community service to pay back the taxes/fines owed, but alas, I said internment camps, then next step up. Why? Because illegal immigrants would more likely (and have a track record of) skipping probation.Second point... It is businesses which hire illegals that are part of the problem, to be sure. So, get rid of the illegals and bring in the legals, and then business can stay out of court more often. Some businesses are completely MADE of illegal aliens too - get rid of them with heavy fines, that I'll agree with. Goods and services are going to go up anyway, and they'll go up even more if thousands of businesses have to show up in court. I'd rather thousands of illegal aliens show up in court.
Third point... Raising the minimum wage is not a good idea unless you're talking about starting a sort of index system based directly off inflation. Mainly, raising the minimum wage will have little to no effect overall to the brunt of the work force... except for unions. Why? 'Cause unions make sure to have people's pay pro-rated for minimum wage. Non-union workers (the biggest slice of the work force) in general do not get pro-rating, and most of them also are already working for pay over minimum wage. Good luck finding a vast majority of CDC/nursing home workers and babysitters getting paid any more than what they normally get.
And dissing America for being capitalist... well what did you expect? Capitalism causes a consumerist society. Everyone wants freedom to consume.
______________________________________________________
"He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man and gave him what for.
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton the man they call Jayne!
http://boxofficebrewery.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I was calling the general perception that we (the US government) may do what we want with the rest of the world arrogant, not you specifically.
But referring to Milagro's post as drivel has me re-thinkin' that.
How about we take some of the fat, lazy welfare slurping trash from our society and export them to Mexico to make room for some hard working immigrents?
And yes, I know there are some fat, lazy immigrents waiting to get legal so they, too, can be welfare slurping.
I mean to say, let's not draw a line and say "Them, bad- we, good."
Not just some... quite a few. It is now estimated that somewhere between 25-30% of the illegal immigrants in this country - around 3-4 MILLION - are living off the arm. This is double that of the percentage of citizens who are on welfare - 14%. Who's the fat, lazy ones? Americans in general are the hardest working people in the entire world when compared with other nations. That is a fact.
And also, chew on this - you get rid of the illegal aliens, you open up jobs for the slobs. Approximately 8 million of them. It sounds worth it to me.
So yeah, I draw a line - it's called the U.S. border. And like I said just above, I'm not totally serious about internment camps, but how else is the U.S. gov't going to keep their $25 million a year from going to Mexico, Brazil, Russia, heck even New Zealand?
______________________________________________________
"He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man and gave him what for.
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton the man they call Jayne!
http://boxofficebrewery.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:
Originally posted by Brewski:
I'm a little confused. Are we talking about Afghanistan, Iraq, or V is for Vendetta? I pick none of the above.
Off the top of my head how about General Pinochet. The American Government helped over throw the democratically elected, but unfriendly government, for the friendly but brutal unelected dictator.
There's more.
I'm sure there is, including the obvious ones... supporting both sides of the Iran-Iraq war of the early '80's and supporting a democratic government in Afghanistan in the '70's by supporting this political group call the Taliban.
It would be nice to have a crystal ball, but in all actuality it's probably that the U.S. supported what they thought was "the best of the worst." That's an excuse, really... there is no real excuse. I never said the U.S. government is innocent, which is why I'd more trust private investors... a little more. They at least don't have a giant military and have to negotiate.
______________________________________________________
"He robbed from the rich and he gave to the poor.
Stood up to the man and gave him what for.
Our love for him now ain't hard to explain.
The hero of Canton the man they call Jayne!
http://boxofficebrewery.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:I was calling the general perception that we (the US government) may do what we want with the rest of the world arrogant, not you specifically.
Originally posted by Brewski:
Calling me arrogant, attacking my signature, then telling me to read some drivel I already read
But referring to Milagro's post as drivel has me re-thinkin' that.
How about we take some of the fat, lazy welfare slurping trash from our society and export them to Mexico to make room for some hard working immigrents?
And yes, I know there are some fat, lazy immigrents waiting to get legal so they, too, can be welfare slurping.
I mean to say, let's not draw a line and say "Them, bad- we, good."
And if you're serious about internment camps, well, then I won't take up any more of your time. Your copy of Mein Kamph is waiting.
(Okay, I got my jab in; I just hope you're NOT serious...)
Scapegoating folk is the first step towards being a good Nazi Chrisisall
Chrisisall you might want to take a look at Mexico's immigration policies, people who migrate to Mexico legal or illegal have virtually no right under the law, their immigration policy is very very strict, they won't allow even half the things or rights that we have here ..and yet you have their president Fox saying that Mexicans who come here should get citizen ship..if you want to talk about hypocrites you might want to start with the Mexican government
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Quote:Point taken.
Originally posted by piratejenny:
if you want to talk about hypocrites you might want to start with the Mexican government
All the more reason peeps would want to leave, though.
No answers Chrisisall
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Quote:Do you have stats or links to support your highly dubious 'fact'?
Originally posted by Brewski:
Americans in general are the hardest working people in the entire world when compared with other nations. That is a fact.
There's a lot of hard-workin' peeps in the world...Chrisisall
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Compared to other developed (industrialized) nations, Americans take fewer vacations and work more hours. However, disputing Brewski's claim that immigrees are lazy good-for-nothings, the unemployment rate among illegal immigrants is actually lower than among USA citizens. (Dont' ask me how someone came up with THAT figure! I'll try and find the report.)
---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.
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Quote:In addition, the Mexican government actually provides information on how to evade US Immigration.
If you want to talk about hypocrites you might want to start with the Mexican government
The "special relationship" that Bush and Fox share is the "special relationship" of two extremely corrupt wealthy men: one who uses emigration to let the steam out of incipient reform at home, the other who uses immigration to lower wages and benefits in favor of corporations. And we're expected to play that rigged game? I don't think so.
---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.
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| Country | Hours |
| Korea | 2390 |
| Poland | 1984 |
| Mexico | 1980 |
| Czech Rep | 1882 |
| Japan | 1828 |
| Greece | 1811 |
| USA | 1777 |
source: OECD (2004), OECD in Figures, OECD, Paris.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.
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Thanks, Citizen, I thought that might be the case.
Stat challenged Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Do you have stats or links to support your highly dubious 'fact'?
Originally posted by Brewski:
Americans in general are the hardest working people in the entire world when compared with other nations. That is a fact.
There's a lot of hard-workin' peeps in the world...Chrisisall
I suspect he's refering to GDP per capita, a statistic where the US does very well (though not as well as Norway or Finland.)
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Isn't GDP a measure of wealth, not work?
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.
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Citizen, is that North or South Korea at the top of that list?
Just curious.
EDIT: Never mind, the figure for Korea will probably be South Korea.
Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.
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Yes indeed it is, but GDP/capita is (eroneously) used as a shorthand for productivity.
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So if you want to raise your productivity you just raise the price of your widget. B/c productivity is 'value' of goods/ services produced per work unit (person-hours).
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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In essence yes. There are additional complications. For example if "China Inc" buys "America Corp" lock stock and barrel for $3B then GDP goes up that much because $3B enters the economy. Certain kinds of government loads (or the interest on them??) also count. So if China buys the right kind of bonds to cover US debts the US GDP actually rises.
In addition the GDP/capita works looks better for single integrated markets or for countries with large capital exports per citizen.
The US gets a good score because american steel is used to make american screws that are used in American parts that are put in American cars. Each of those industries return information on their profits so that single piece of steel gets counted multiple times. If Korean steel is used to make Japanese screws that end up in a German car the German economy doesnt see the same multiplier.
Recently economists started to treat the whole of the EU as one market and the overall GDP rose just from doing the calculation that way (ie no "real" increase.)
Norway does well because it exports oil (big ticket export item) and has a small population.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Point taken.
Originally posted by piratejenny:
if you want to talk about hypocrites you might want to start with the Mexican government
All the more reason peeps would want to leave, though.
No answers Chrisisall
I think everyone can understand their reasons for wanting to come, point is we can't afford to take them.
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Quote:Technically, we actually can afford to take them, we just have to be willing to let go of a large portion of our standard of living, doesn't mean we'd starve or anything, we'd just have more bicycles and less cars, etc.
Originally posted by piratejenny:
I think everyone can understand their reasons for wanting to come, point is we can't afford to take them.
(Upside- end of the evil car insurance industry
)Livin' too high off the hog anyway Chrisisall
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Quote:One last addition to this thread:
Originally posted by Phaedra:
The people who marched are our neighbors, coworkers, friends and fellow Americans. They deserve respect.
Articles 5 – 10 of the Declaration on the Human Rights of Individuals Who are not Nationals of the Country in which They Live sets out the rights of non-citizens (referred to as “aliens” in the Declaration):
• Aliens must receive the same treatment as nationals of the country in which they live with regard to the following rights:
The right to life and security of the person, including freedom from arbitrary arrest or detention
Protection against arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy, family, home or correspondence
Equality before the courts, including the free assistance of an interpreter
The right to choose a spouse, to marry, and to found a family
Freedom of thought, opinion, conscience and religion
The right to retain language, culture and tradition
The right to transfer money abroad
• The following rights must be granted to aliens so long as they do not interfere with national security, public safety, public order, public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others:
The right to leave the country
The right to freedom of expression
The right to peaceful assembly
The right to own property individually or in association with others
Liberty of movement and freedom to choose their place of residence within the borders of the country
The right of spouse and minor or dependent children to join a lawful alien, as provided by national law
• Aliens lawfully residing in the country must be granted the following rights so long as they observe the country’s laws and respect the customs and traditions of the people:
The right to safe and healthy working conditions, fair wages, and equal pay for equal work
The right to join trade unions
The right to social services, health care, education, and social security
• The following additional rights of aliens are particularly enumerated in the Declaration:
Protection from torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading punishment
Freedom from being subjected to medical or scientific experimentation without the alien’s free consent
Protection against arbitrary or unlawful expulsion from the country
The right to defend oneself from expulsion, except where compelling reasons of national security require otherwise
Protection from being arbitrarily deprived of lawfully acquired assets
The right to communicate at any time with the consulate or diplomatic mission of the country of which he or she is a national
THESE ARE RIGHTS WE OURSELVES EXPECT FROM OTHER COUNTRIES WHEN WE TRAVEL OR WORK.
...Just in case any here want to say anything about 'rights'.
Chrisisall
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So are you saying that those laws apply to illegal aliens too? Because in my book illegal aliens have broken the law (hence the term 'illegal'), so they should have a much more limited set of rights than 'legal' aliens, just as criminals have a reduced set of rights.
Besides, it's not like it's THOSE rights that they were protesting for. They basically already have those ones. The protestors are looking for MORE rights, ones that they, being illegal immigrants, have no right to have.
Frustrated that people keep ignoring the word 'illegal' Khyronisall
Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.
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I don't know what state you're from, but in WI in-state tuition isn't cheap. In fact, on the basis of money alone, it would almost be cheaper for me to pay out of state tuition at a number of other schools. Lucky for me, my school is a damn good one. Furthermore, as far as I know, one needs to be a citizen/have a green card and a state drivers license to establish residency and get federal aid, so I highly doubt most undocumented workers can afford higher education. At least for awhile.
Also, referencing a previous post of yours, abortion is not genocide.
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by Brewski:
Americans in general are the hardest working people in the entire world when compared with other nations. That is a fact.
Do you have stats or links to support your highly dubious 'fact'?
There's a lot of hard-workin' peeps in the world...Chrisisall
I can't quote an actual source off the top of my head at the moment, but Americans work more hours per week and more days per year than nearly everyone in the world. With the exception of I think the Japanese and maybe some other country in Europe.
Whether or not our actual work is harder though, could be up for debate.
I can't believe it's taken me this long to read this thread . . .
*runs off to continue studying for exams*
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I looked into this was about 18 months ago during a discussion as to how to measure worker productivity. Like many things to do with statistics it depends on what you look at.
American worker productivity is amongst the highest in the world (IIRC Korea is greater) BUT Americans work more hours than most industrial economies. If you look at the productivity value per hour American productivity is about average with most western economies with places like Germany and Sweden significantly ahead.
So if you have a "Scotty" style job (you have exactly 3 hours to fix things before the ship explodes) hire a German. If you don't care how long it actually takes but are only willing to pay for 3 hours hire an American (and get the extra time for free...)
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Quote:I have two problems with this.
Originally posted by Khyron:
Frustrated that people keep ignoring the word 'illegal' Khyronisall
1) For me, legal and illegal have little meaning in a country so ready to assign one or the other arbitrarily, or to suit the purpose at hand. There is only what a man can do, and what a man can't do, most CEO's know and operate by this.
2) You're using my 'isall'.
Chrisisall TM (C) 2006
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I'm starting to think that despite the crisis on the border and the millions marching in the streets, and the national security problems, we are at an impasse on this issue.
Everyone agrees the problem exists, but there is no consensus among elected leadership to take action.
I think perhaps this situation needs to explode. A huge riot in Washington or a massacre along the border. The leadership of both parties are in a coma when it comes to this issue and if millions marching peacefully for rights they don't have can't wake people up, then senseless violance might do the job.
I'm not advocating violence by either side,
in fact I hope that it can be avoided and I'm greatly impressed by the demonstrations and behaivor of everyone from the Minutemen's peaceful border watch
to the pro-immigration rallys
across the country. It might just be my frustration
at whats not happening or maybe because I've studied history and it seems a violent act
might be necessary to create the political will to enact a solution.
And its the million illegal Irish we should be really worried about...
My solution, close the border with the military (at least long enough to train and equip the new border patrol and build a nice big fence), guest worker status for everyone here (you can't deport 12 million people), felony offense to employ illegals, immediate deportation for anyone who doesn't register, and the removal of Hillary Clinton office (oddly that also my solution to global warming, the economy, the high gas prices, the sequal to Serenity, what I'm fixing for dinner tonight, and just about any other problem I can think of).
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sassalicious:
I don't know what state you're from, but in WI in-state tuition isn't cheap. In fact, on the basis of money alone, it would almost be cheaper for me to pay out of state tuition at a number of other schools. Lucky for me, my school is a damn good one. Furthermore, as far as I know, one needs to be a citizen/have a green card and a state drivers license to establish residency and get federal aid, so I highly doubt most undocumented workers can afford higher education. At least for awhile.
Also, referencing a previous post of yours, abortion is not genocide.
I'm a bit confused, was that in response to my post? Because I never said anything about education or abortion, at least not in this thread (and I certainly would never have claimed that abortion is genocide).
Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
1) For me, legal and illegal have little meaning in a country so ready to assign one or the other arbitrarily, or to suit the purpose at hand. There is only what a man can do, and what a man can't do, most CEO's know and operate by this.
There's still a difference, even if employers and some people on here can't tell.
Legal: One has waited in line to be allowed into the foreign country. If one is allowed in, it means one has got the necessary credentials to be of aid to that foreign country in some way.
Illegal: One skipped the queue and snuck in without waiting like all those nice people waiting to be let in legally have, and one doesn't even necessarily have the necessary credentials.
As a crude comparison, imagine there's a job opening and there's a bunch of qualified people waiting to be interviewed for that job, but they're still stuck at the security check of that particular building. Now imagine there's somebody that sneaks in past the security check, goes up to the interview, bullshits his way through it and gets the job because he was the first one there. Does that seem right to you?
It's not a great comparison, but it sort of gets the point across. And it's not just potentially legal aliens that get screwed by this, it's also people living in that country that screwed over (as has been spoken about before on this thread).
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
2) You're using my 'isall'.
Khyroniseverything
Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:Quote:
Originally posted by Sassalicious:
I don't know what state you're from, but in WI in-state tuition isn't cheap. In fact, on the basis of money alone, it would almost be cheaper for me to pay out of state tuition at a number of other schools. Lucky for me, my school is a damn good one. Furthermore, as far as I know, one needs to be a citizen/have a green card and a state drivers license to establish residency and get federal aid, so I highly doubt most undocumented workers can afford higher education. At least for awhile.
Also, referencing a previous post of yours, abortion is not genocide.
I'm a bit confused, was that in response to my post? Because I never said anything about education or abortion, at least not in this thread (and I certainly would never have claimed that abortion is genocide).
Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.
No, it wasn't directed at you. It was to PirateNews. Apparently I clicked on the wrong message reply link in my slightly comatose state early this morning. Sorry about that.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sassalicious:
No, it wasn't directed at you. It was to PirateNews. Apparently I clicked on the wrong message reply link in my slightly comatose state early this morning. Sorry about that.
No problem
.Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.
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It's that tragic Space Dementia making you all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart!
"Wish I had some of whatever this Piratenews guy is smoking"
Jaytee
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Quote:
Originally posted by JayTee:
It's that tragic Space Dementia making you all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart!
"Wish I had some of whatever this Piratenews guy is smoking"
Jaytee
You really really don't...
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.
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I admit to being quite surprised by the list of "rights" people posted earlier. Speaking as a "legal" I had to do the following to get my visa.
1) I had to find an American willing to take financial responsability for me (in this case my wife.) She had to prove that she was in good financial shape which involved us filing with the IRS for the 8 years she lived abroad (Americans are supposed to file every year even if they dont live/earn pay in the US, she hadn't because it was pointless but the INS made her play catch up since they didn't take foreign tax documents as proof of earnings. She also needed a letter from her job saying what the terms of her employment were, how much she was paid, how long employed etc. Since the company was the same as the one she worked for in Europe she was able to prove she had a job for more than 2 years. I don't know what would have happened had she started with an entirely new employer.
2) I had to sign an afadavit saying that I would not use public assistance for 12 years. I have no idea what counts as public assistance over here, but if this is something that the human rights document says I should get, well they have legals sign that right away if they want a visa.
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Fletch, I totally agree with you. Being a "legal" in Canada, I also have the feeling I signed some of those rights away when I applied for a visa. Can't be bothered to go through my documents to check which ones, but it certainly does seem like a lot of rights to give to non-nationals. Most people would be lucky if their own country gave those rights to its citizens.
Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.
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Of course there is part of the declaration he 'forgot' to mention:
Quote:
Article 2
1. Nothing in this Declaration shall be interpreted as legitimizing the illegal entry into and presence in a State of any alien, nor shall any provision be interpreted as restricting the right of any State to promulgate laws and regulations concerning the entry of aliens and the terms and conditions of their stay or to establish differences between nationals and aliens.
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My fault, don't go pointing fingers at dear Chrisisall (this is the wifey who shoved the link at him after he'd been working on ungodly number of hours)
Here's the link: http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/o_nonnat.htm
And you forgot the last sentence of that article:
However, such laws and regulations shall not be incompatible with the international legal obligations of that State, including those in the field of human rights.
And the intro to the articles:
Considering that the Charter of the United Nations encourages universal respect for and observance of the human rights and fundamental freedoms of all human beings, without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion,
Considering that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights proclaims that all human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights and that everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in that Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status,
Considering that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights proclaims further that everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law, that all are equal before the law and entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law, and that all are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of that Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination,
Being aware that the States Parties to the International Covenants on Human Rights undertake to guarantee that the rights enunciated in these Covenants will be exercised without discrimination of any kind as to race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status,
Conscious that, with improving communications and the development of peaceful and friendly relations among countries, individuals increasingly live in countries of which they are not nationals, Reaffirming the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations,
Recognizing that the protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms provided for in international instruments should also be ensured for individuals who are not nationals of the country in which they live
This was pasted from a Salon thread, the poster's a military man who also had this to say:
Quote:
The people marching are marching because they see something happening that is very wrong. They are trying to stop as much of the injustice as they can. Whether they are citizens or not, whether they have "birth-rights" or "guest-rights"
“to what extent should the Constitution protect noncitizens—immigrants, undocumented persons, tourists, foreign students—in the United States”
According to Merriam Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, “a citizen is a member of a state to whom he or she owes allegiance and is entitled to its protection.” Hence, from this definition, it is implicit that a non-citizen is someone who is not a member of a state nor owes allegiance to the state he or she currently resides.
And this:
Quote:
'Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!'
As far as the struggles people go through to get to out "beloved" country, I have seen first hand, those who make it easily, who have a life threatening trip, and those who die trying.
These have been Cuban, Haitian, Dominican, Mexican, Central/South American...
I have escorted "boats" (a loose term for some of the vessels), to a safe mooring. I have pulled people from the water, who lived. I have pulled people from the water who died for the chance to be free.
I have been part of a crew who pulled families from dingys, rafts, and floating planks. Where we had to give them medical care, carefully feed them (soft, bland foods) becausNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Pictures from today's demonstration in Philadelphia:
http://atrios.blogspot.com/2006_04_09_atrios_archive.html#114468779843
950619
NY Times article covering demonstrations around the country:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/10/us/10cnd-rallies.html?hp&ex=11447280
00&en=37b7d3df75737f2e&ei=5094&partner=homepage
milagrobean
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Quote:Here's another comparison, (again rather crude, but...):
Originally posted by Khyron:
It's not a great comparison, but it sort of gets the point across.
You're in a lifeboat. The ship went down days ago. You find out that two on board, a man and his son (who take regular turns rowing and whom many have come to like), circumvented the lottery process and 'snuck' their way onto the lifeboat.
Do you toss them overboard 'cause technically, they shouldn't even be there?
Or do you toss off that Dr. Smith-lookin' motherfrakker who's stealing extra rations and water for himself (but got on legit)?
Milagro-lovin' Chrisisall
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Well the problem is not just with Bush. This goes back decades and both parties have been taking advantage of the illegal situation.
Back during the Clinton years there was a nominee who was dropped after it was found she had an illegal as a nanny adn knew the woman was illegal.
So this not just one side of the political sysytem.
TANSTAAFL
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Milagro- All that means is that there are a heckuva lot of illegals here attempting to apply political pressure thru non-voting means ... not entirely reassuring.
---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.
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Quote:I find it somewhat reassuring in that it means rich folk aren't the ONLY ones can do that...
Originally posted by SignyM:
All that means is that there are a heckuva lot of illegals here attempting to apply political pressure thru non-voting means ... not entirely reassuring.
Play the system that plays you Chrisisall
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Quote:Not exactly the right comparison. You work on cruise ship. Some of you are cooks, some waiters, some cleaners, and a couple of you are executives who own the cruise line. Some of you were allowed on the boat illegally and have been put to work for next to nothing because it costs the cruise line much less to hire them. So, while YOU are getting $10 an hour, the guy next to you is making $6. So, do you toss out the executives or the guy who's making $6? Or both?
You're in a lifeboat. The ship went down days ago. You find out that two on board, a man and his son (who take regular turns rowing and whom many have come to like), circumvented the lottery process and 'snuck' their way onto the lifeboat.
Do you toss them overboard 'cause technically, they shouldn't even be there? Or do you toss off that Dr. Smith-lookin' motherfrakker who's stealing extra rations and water for himself (but got on legit)?
---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.
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Border? We don't want no stinkin border!
You capture a pirate ship that's been raping, robbing an killin. What do ya do?
YOU MAKE EM WALK THE EFFING PLANK!
What did the British Navy call that thing where you "keel-haul" sombody, as shark bait? Didn't Mal refer to that in Firefly?
Quote:
U.S.-Born Latinos Oppose Illegal Immigration
AP | April 11 2006
PHOENIX -- Contrary to scenes of hundreds of thousands of united Latinos marching across the country in support of immigration reform, a sizable number of the ethnic group opposes the marches and strongly objects to illegal immigration.
Their voices have largely been muffled by the massive protests, however, which continued Monday as thousands of demonstrators took to the streets of cities nationwide.
Those protesting are voicing their support of a Senate bill that would give an estimated 11 million illegal immigrants living in the country a chance for U.S. citizenship.
"That's the objective of the marches — to give the impression that all Latinos are for allowing the illegals to become citizens," said Phoenix resident Lionel De La Rosa. "Well, I'm not."
The 71-year-old Texas native and Vietnam veteran said he favors punitive measures more in line with the immigration bill passed by the U.S. House in December that would have made it a felony to be in the United States illegally.
"I'm for that 100 percent," he said. "As far as my Latino friends are concerned, they all agree on this."
A 2005 survey by the Pew Hispanic Center found that Latinos in general have favorable attitudes toward immigrants and immigration. But when it comes to illegal immigration, significant numbers have negative views of undocumented immigrants.
The survey found those feelings are strongest among middle-class and middle-age U.S.-born Latinos.
And though 68 percent of Latinos said they believe undocumented immigrants help the economy by providing low-cost labor, nearly a quarter felt undocumented immigrants hurt the economy by driving down wages.
U.S.-born Latinos looked even less favorably toward undocumented immigrants than foreign-born Latinos. More than a third of U.S.-born Latinos said undocumented immigrants hurt the economy, compared with just 15 percent of foreign-born Latinos.
Latinos also are divided over whether to allow undocumented immigrants to earn citizenship, the survey found.
Though 88 percent of foreign-born Latinos favored allowing undocumented immigrants to earn citizenship, a smaller number of U.S.-born Latinos, 78 percent, said undocumented immigrants should be allowed to do so.
Though views such as De La Rosa's are common among Latinos, they are rarely reflected among Latino leaders, said Steven Camarota, research director at the Center for Immigration Studies, a Washington, D.C. think tank that favors greater restrictions on immigration.
"It's easy to tap into the views of the intellectual class, but harder to tap0into the views of the common folks," he said.
And because so much of the debate over illegal immigration comes off as anti-Hispanic, Latinos who favor greater restrictions on immigration are often reluctant to speak out.
"That's extremely off-putting," Camarota said. "Whatever their views, they keep it to themselves."
Many Latinos fear being ostracized for their negative views of undocumented immigrants, said Phoenix resident Frank Barrios, 64.
"There are a lot of Hispanics that are upset about the undocumented just the same way as the Anglo population," said Barrios, a third-generation Mexican-American who traces his family's roots in Arizona to the 1870s. "That group is larger than many people would believe."
www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/4/10/144315.shtml?s=lh
I'd picket with those Latinos anytime. Better yet, we can hunt illegals, make citizens arrests, and deport em. And make citizens arrests on their employers, and get paid that $250,000 bounty!
http://acuf.org/images/photos/bordersig
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I think perhaps this situation needs to explode. A huge riot in Washington or a massacre along the border. The leadership of both parties are in a coma when it comes to this issue and if millions marching peacefully for rights they don't have can't wake people up, then senseless violance might do the job.
I'm not advocating violence by either side,
My solution, close the border with the military (at least long enough to train and equip the new border patrol and build a nice big fence), guest worker status for everyone here (you can't deport 12 million people), felony offense to employ illegals, immediate deportation for anyone who doesn't register, and the removal of Hillary Clinton office (oddly that also my solution to global warming, the economy, the high gas prices, the sequal to Serenity, what I'm fixing for dinner tonight, and just about any other problem I can think of).
H
Dammit Hero, I have to agree with you, mostly.
But Hillary's name is Blythe-Rockefeller, and there's only one way to stop a Rockfeller - fuck em to death.
Dammit Mal!...I forgot my line!
-Jayne
FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php
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Quote:Toss no one off, sounds like I got a good deal, is all.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Not exactly the right comparison. You work on cruise ship. Some of you are cooks, some waiters, some cleaners, and a couple of you are executives who own the cruise line. Some of you were allowed on the boat illegally and have been put to work for next to nothing because it costs the cruise line much less to hire them. So, while YOU are getting $10 an hour, the guy next to you is making $6. So, do you toss out the executives or the guy who's making $6? Or both?
I guess deep somewhere down I'm one of those socialist-types. I see the world as melding into one (low) economic level at some point, with just a few in a position of wealth and power (Like it's always been, eh?).
It's like the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries were some sort of abberation- power and wealth got somewhat distributed in spots, wasn't meant to happen.
Whether it letting in illegals, or squandering our resources on war intended to secure future oil access, the bottom line is we've decided collectivly to follow assholes into the toilet, and complain when they flush.
I don't know if the economic destruction of our country can be reversed at this point, it would take such a major change in education, science and military intervention, that it just doesn't seem possible to me.
Just read that 70% of Americans dissaprove where this country is heading. That it takes this long for any to see what a destructive fool Bush is is very unsettling. I saw it a long way off, and I'm no genius.
Signy, please tell me that Finn, AURaptor, Hero, and others are right, that I'm just prone to doomy gloomy scenarios, and that all will be well with this country in a matter of hours....
Off-topic it seems Chrisisall
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Hey, ya know, after reading my posts and yours I just talked myself out of my anti-immigration stance. It's not their fault, it's the *ssholes who set the system up. Bottom line: the solution is to raise the minimum wage and enforce it to make sure that nobody is working at starvation wages (or less).
And for those who complain about the competition from cheap labor: Have you joined a union? Do you boycott Walmart? Did you push your Congressmen for a higher minimum wage, or push for worker and environmental protections in NAFTA? If not.... if you're a pro-corporate anti-labor sort of person then you're diving headlng into the toilet.
---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.
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USA is currently under attack by invasion from a foreign nation, but the front lines are now moved so far inward so that it is essentially a Civil War. Especially when you considered the traitors who hijacked the white House, Congress, all state legislatures and most county commissions and city councils, that welcome illegal criminal alien invaders with billions of our taxdollars, in violation of their oaths of office to represent The People and enforce The Law.
Quote:
FORGET ABOUT CIVIL WAR IN IRAQ, ONE IS COMING TO AMERICA
By Pastor Chuck Baldwin
NewsWithViews.com
April 11, 2006
While American troops are hunkered down in "safe zones" in Iraq trying to stay out of an escalating civil war, our government seems oblivious to a growing threat of civil war right here in the United States. As anyone can see, millions of illegal aliens living here are becoming more vocal, more demonstrative, more belligerent, and more violence-prone by the day. Unless our government takes deliberate and significant action immediately, America could be in for serious civil unrest real soon.
It is absolutely incredible that our government would tolerate people who are not even legal residents of our country to generate the kind of mass demonstrations and protests that we are witnessing on a daily basis! It is more than incredible; it is outrageous!
According to The Christian Science Monitor (April 10, 2006), immigrants (most of them illegal) are "mobilizing for major 'action.'" Nearly 100 American cities will soon feel the brunt of this "action."
Organizers describe these coming demonstrations as "the biggest social movement of Hispanics since the United Farm Workers of Cesar Chavez." In addition, organizers predict that thousands of Muslims will also join millions of illegal Hispanics on what can only be regarded as an anti-America crusade.
The American people need to understand that the United States is under attack! No, not by Iraq or Iran, but by Mexico! Yes, Martha, you had better believe it. The Mexican government is deliberately and systematically working to destabilize and undermine the very fabric and framework of American society. And President George W. Bush and Senators John McCain and Ted Kennedy (among others) are aiding and abetting this effort.
Right now, much of Latin America is embroiled in a serious takeover by Leftist-Marxists. In all likelihood, Mexico's next leader will be an open Leftist. Vicente Fox has helped create an increased appetite for socialism (not that Mexico ever had a true understanding of freedom and republicanism), and the next Mexican leader is certain to finish the job.Quote:
Today a unique and alternative education system is rapidly emerging in the misty mountains and steamy jungles of the Mexican southeast. Indian children in hundreds of Maya communities throughout the state of Chiapas are attending new “Zapatista” schools.
Schools for Chiapas / Escuelas para Chiapas
1631 Dale Street
San Diego, CA 92102 USA
(619) 232-2841
schoolsforchiapas@schoolsforchiapas.org
www.schoolsforchiapas.org
However, Fox has done more than turn his own country leftward. He has superintended over the biggest invasion of the United States in our country's history. That's right, invasion! A close, personal friendship with President George W. Bush has given Fox the opportunity to purposely allow (or even send) millions of criminals, thugs, anarchists, and potential terrorists to swarm over our southern border in breathtaking numbers. (As I have chronicled before in this column, nearly half of all illegal aliens currently living in the U.S. came here since Bush became president in 2000.)
Yet, while Mexican President Fox encourages and even promotes massive illegal immigration to the U.S., his own country's constitution in Chapter 3, Article 33, states, "The Executive of the Union has the exclusive right to expel from the national territoNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Listen you alarmist.
They start a civil war here and they will all die; all of them.
It’s our fault that this problem is a problem. In many ways a lot of companies love having the illegal around just so they can pay them peanuts. We sat on our asses for decades allowing this problem to get larger and larger, and now we want to throw them out? Stupid. Its time for this country to take some responsibilities for its actions. Make those people who are already here legal citizens, toss out the criminal elements, and actually put some real money into patrolling our borders. We should have done that after 9/11, but we didn’t so we get what we deserve. This whole thing reeks of complete politics and I hate it.
I’ve been reading some of the opinions on the internet by people who don’t think. One idiot says that we should round them all up at gun point, and march them all to the border...all 12 million of them. Yeah, that would look really good on CNN, and the whole world would really get to see our true colors. Mass relocation to solve a problem that we let get out of hand…give me a break. And Piratenews…you are such a [* MOD ACTION: personal attacks and flaming are not accepted on these forums -- if this continues, threads will be moved wholesale to troll country and accounts may be suspended *]
River
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PN, just stop. Everyone here thinks you are a nut. Maybe if you toned down the rhetoric and started including (yes, I'm saying it again, and I'm gonna keep saying it until you listen) EVIDENCE, us reasonable folks might not be so quick to dismiss you as a schitzophrenic idiot.
Or, you could continue to blame all the world's problems on those dastardly British-Commie-Nazi-Alien-Jews, and we can continue with the thinking you are a [* MOD ACTION: personal attacks and flaming are not accepted on these forums -- if this continues, threads will be moved wholesale to troll country and accounts may be suspended *]
You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.
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Quote:
www.aztlanunderground.com
COVER OF HOT NEW ALBUM: MEXICANS SHOWN SPEARING AMERICAN "PIGS"
Lyrics
506 years of indigenous resistance
The prophecies are coming true
The redemption of the red people has come!
The 6th sun now arises
The 7th fire has arrived
Cihuatl is reclaiming
We have returned to Aztlan
We have returned to Aztlan!!!!
WE DIDN'T CROSS THE BORDERS, THE BORDERS CROSSED US YET THE SETTLER NATION LIVES IN DISGUST!!
GET THE FUCK OUT, GET THE FUCK OUT, GET THE FUCK, FUCK, FUCK OUT GET THE FUCK OUT
WASICHU [White Man] EATER OF THE FAT WASTER OF EARTH MOTHER AND PEOPLE COLONIZER OF AZTLAN AND THE WORLD GET THE FUCK OUT!!!!
www.americanpatrol.com/FEATURES/010421AZTLANRAP/FeatureAztlanRap010421
.html
That's about 1/3rd as many FUCKS as 30 seconds primetime, on MTV's Police State propaganda reality show, "Scared Straight". MTV's new job sends kids to state prison to be scolded at by large black felons screaming "FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK...!" Jewish-owned MTV isn't allowed to play music anymore. That might make people THINK. ("F-word was NOT bleeped out on MTV)
For example, Guns & Roses "I DON'T NEED YOUR CIVIL WAR".
Quote:
Slash / McKagan / Rose
Special Thanks Niven / James
"What we've got here is failure to communicate." (KKK preacher from Porky's Revenge?)
Some men you just can't reach...
So, you get what we had here last week,
which is the way he wants it!
Well, he gets it!
N' I don't like it any more than you men.
Look at your young men fighting
Look at your women crying
Look at your young men dying
The way they've always done before
Look at the hate we're breeding
Look at the fear we're feeding
Look at the lives we're leading
The way we've always done before
My hands are tied
The billions shift from side to side
And the wars go on with brainwashed pride
For the love of God and our human rights
And all these things are swept aside
By bloody hands time can't deny
And are washed away by your genocide
And history hides the lies of our civil wars
D'you wear a black armband
When they shot the man
Who said "Peace could last forever"
And in my first memories
They shot Kennedy
I went numb when I learned to see
So I never fell for Vietnam
We got the wall of D.C. to remind us all
That you can't trust freedom
When it's not in your hands
When everybody's fightin'
For their promised land
And
I don't need your civil war
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
I don't need your civil war
Look at the shoes your filling
Look at the blood we're spilling
Look at the world we're killing
The way we've always done before
Look in the doubt we've wallowed
Look at the leaders we've followed
Look at the lies we've swallowed
And I don't want to hear no more
My hands are tied
For all I've seen has changed my mind
But still the wars go on as the years go by
With no love of God or human rights
'Cause all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars
We practice selective annihilation of mayors
And government officials
For example to create a vacuum
Then we fill that vacuum
As popular war advances
Peace is closer
I don't need your civil war
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
And I don't need your civil war
No No No No No No No No
I don't need your civil war
I don't need your civil war
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
I don't need your civil war
I don't need one more war
I don't need one more war
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Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
It only took the NWO 15 years to totally destroy Iraq, for the next 45-BILLION years, soon to be broken into 3 nations - with all the oil given to Israel (Russian Jewish mafiya), via it's pipeline now stolen from Syria. If we have another Civil War in USA, between US and Aztlan, all that DU ammo is going to render USA uninhabitable for 45-billion years...
Wow, not only have you never opened a history book, you've never even seen a science/chemistry book. DU does become radioactive when it vaporizes (tips of some armor piercing rounds vaporize on impact to melt armor), but the rate of radioactive decay is nowhere close to 45 billion years. Hell, look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki; people live there now, after only sixty years. Even with a more modern warhead that has a lot more radioactive potential, the radioactive material would decay completely in a little more than a century.
Plus, Iraq is obviously not unliveably radioactive, seeing as how there are tens of millions of people living there without dying of radiation poisoning. 45 billion years, HA!
P.S. I still think you're a [* MOD ACTION: personal attacks and flaming are not accepted on these forums -- if this continues, threads will be moved wholesale to troll country and accounts may be suspended *]
You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.
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Quote:
Originally posted by reaverman:
Wow, not only have you never opened a history book, you've never even seen a science/chemistry book. DU does become radioactive when it vaporizes (tips of some armor piercing rounds vaporize on impact to melt armor), but the rate of radioactive decay is nowhere close to 45 billion years.
Plus, Iraq is obviously not unliveably radioactive, seeing as how there are tens of millions of people living there without dying of radiation poisoning. 45 billion years, HA!
USA nuked Iraq with 400,000 Hiroshima bombs
www.mattfitt.com
When I loaded nukes for 3 years, we NEVER got tested for radiation. We were never allowed to wear radiation detection film badges. I never saw any person test our bombs for radiation, especially alpha dust. There is nothing in my medical records showing radiation test results. USAF did test and confirm my loss of hearing. And all I got was this Gulf War Syndrome - no medical treatment allowed. But our base could sure spend $600,000/day on kerosine.
www.geocities.com/pentagonwhistleblower
www.raf-upper-heyford.org
F-111 supersonic swingwing robot bomber
www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-111-pics.htm
www.bunkertours.co.uk/raf_upper_heyford.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Upper_Heyford
www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/upper_heyford.htm
Now the base is abandoned at RAF Upper Heyford, turned into a new car parking lot for 1,000s of British cars that no one can afford to buy. So you Brits can drive over there and test for radiation. No airbase is USA has anywhere near the protection as US bases in Europe, where each aircraft had its own "bombproof" bunker with blast doors. Does that sound right to you?
200,000 DEAD US Gulf War soldiers, so far. 500,000 disabled US Gulf War veterans. Those are the official US govt statistics from Veterans Administration from the 15-year nonstop Iraqi War, quoted by Major Doug Rocce PhD, who was in charge of US military DU "cleanup" in Gulf War 1, before all his men died and he got cancer. Inteview last week on The Power Hour radio news, interviewed by Capt Joyce Riley, RN, TX Air National Guard.
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/piratenewsrss/message/200
www.traprockpeace.org/doug_rokke_12july04.html
www.thepowerhour.com
FREE DVD for soldiers and veterans:
www.beyondtreason.com
FREE VIDEO DOWNLOAD:
www.currentera.com/blog/?page_id=506
Quote:
DU son of a US Gulf War soldier,
as seen on cover of LIFE magazine:
www.noduweapons.org
1.7-MILLION Iraqis have been genocided, so far. Massive increase in hideous birth defects, for both Iraqis and US soldiers.
Quote:
DU baby
www.voicesuk.org
100s of photos of DU babies in Iraq:
www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/extremedeformities.html
"'Depleted' URANIUM is RADIOACTIVE at all times. It decays immediately into GAMMA RAYS, X-RAYS, BETA PARTICLES, AND DEADLY ALPHA PARTICLES. It IGNITES at over 3,000-degrees F the instant it leaves the barrel of a gun, like a magnesium flare. When it hits a target it explodes into radiactive dust. Once you breathe or eat alpha radiation, it's like getting a medical x-ray every minute of your short life. DU is a radioactive heavy metal that binds to DNA. DU half life is 4.5-BILLION years, but it requires 10 half lives to reduce radiation to safe levels. DU is suicide for any soldier that touches it, even before it's fired from a gun. Even M-16 ammo is now radioactive DU."
-Major Doug Rikke, PhD, www.ThePowerHour.com Radio News
www.traprockpeace.org/depleted_uranium.html
Quote:
www.notinourname.net/war/du.html
US Govt manuals written by Major Rokke:
April 29, 2004 Memorandum for Commanders, MEDCOM major subordinate
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Piratenews! -- All the news that’s fit to print, but not worth reading!
Top Five Most Wacko Conspiracy Theories as proposed by Piratenews:
#5. “I'm sure there are many more images online, at least until the "end of the Cold War" against fake "Communism" in the 1990s, when the CIA's Afghan freedom fighters were hired to attack the Serbs in Yugoslavia, and to play the patsies for CIA and MI6 on 9/11 and 7/7.”
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=19100
#4. “NOPD gunned down 5 "military contractors" on the levees in a gun battle, probably to stop Blackwater CIA from bombing more levees.”
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=19100
#3. “The Communist Chinese own several US ports and US naval bases in USA, plus the Panama Canal, and run US Dept of Homeland Security in the British Bahamas. The British Empire have run Communist China since winning the Opium Wars over 100 years ago.”
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=19727
#2. “Col Donn de Grand-pre, in his books and commissions on 9/11, quotes airline pilots and fighter pilots presenting the evidence that the airline passengers and pilots were gassed shortly after takeoff, and they were unconscious when they crashed or were shot down over the ocean and in Pensylvania, but that the jets that hit targets were robots loaded with bombs.”
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=19643
And the #1 Wacko Conspiracy Theory proposed by Piratenews straight from Dr. Strangelove:
“Lay off the flouride - it has the same active ingredient as antidepressants like Prozac, and was used by Nazi Germany, Commie Russia and NeoCommie USSA to keep their slaves from trying to escape genocide in the Death Camps. Then maybe you can THINK hard enough to see reality.”
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=19643
Most Ironic quote by Piratenews:
“I don't have to make any "case". I just report the facts and draw the obvious extrapolation based on historical reality. The ranting, theorizing and wild conspiracy theories by Citzen, Bush et al just exposes their insanity for all to see. Don't worry, USA is being ripped to shreds right before your closed eyes, so you're never see it, so it can't be real - or can it? The definition of insanity is ignoring reality.”
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=19643
Most Absurd statement by Piratenews:
Draft all the Mexican illegals into the US military and invade Mexico, overthrow and slaughter its Gangsta Govt like we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan, and export our democracy like we love to do. Make English the official language of Mexico, so the Mexicans will want to stay in their own fucking country. So what if millions of Mexicans are genocided? USA genocided 2-million Vietnamese, 2-million Iraqis, 10-million Germans, and 100-million Americans in USA. USA nuked Iraq with 400,000 Hiroshima bombs, and even nuked USA with 1,050 nuke bombs. NUKE MEXICO CITY, BEFORE THEY DO IT TO US VIA THE COMMIE CHINESE MILITARY AND ARABS RUNNING US PORTS VIA THE BRITISH EMPIRE. What's the big deal?
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=19153
Best example of the Pot calling the Kettle black by Piratenews:
“Go ahead you traitors, keep "rebutting" facts and photos with NOTHING but preschool banter, while 80% of readers in this forum agree with the facts I post. I hope your paycheck is worth it. Not. The People aren't buyin your shit no more.”
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=19643
And the award for most paranoid statement goes to:
“The Jewish KosherNostra Mishpucka Mafia runs the cartel for nuke waste in USA, HQed in my hometown, who I sued in 4 class actions and filed felony charges against.”
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=19153
"History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon."
-- Napoleon Bonaparte
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Wow. That must have taken WAAAY too much time! But it is funny to see all the weirdness in one place, and now I don't have to wade thru PN's posts... so, thanks for that!
---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.
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Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
"Depleted" URANIUM is RADIOACTIVE at all times. It decays immediately into GAMMA RAYS, X-RAYS, BETA PARTICLES, AND DEADLY ALPHA PARTICLES. It IGNITES at over 3,000-degrees F the instant it leaves the barrel of a gun, like a magnesium flare. When it hits a target it explodes into radiactive dust. Once you breathe or eat alpha radiation, it's like getting a medical x-ray every minute of your short life. DU is a radioactive heavy metal that binds to DNA. DU half life is 4.5-BILLION years, but it requires 10 half lives to reduce radiation to safe levels. DU is suicide for any soldier that touches it, even before it's fired from a gun. Even M-16 ammo is now radioactive DU.
www.traprockpeace.org/depleted_uranium.html
Wow... you are amazing. You say shit that simple common sense refutes. I know the effects of Alpha-Particles, and, if DU was emitting them constantly, our troops would be dead within 24-48 hours of inhaling or ingesting them. Seeing as how our soldiers are constantly surrounded by DU, why is our entire invasion/occupation force (and the military in general) NOT DEAD?
As for Gamma-Rays, they are emitted only in large expendatures of energy, like, say, a nuclear blast. Gamma-rays dont just fly out 24/7. X-Rays are just another form of Gamma-Ray, so the same applies to them.
Also, DU doesn't "ignite at over 3000 degrees F the instant it leaves the barrel". Have you ever fired a gun? I have. I have fired pistols, rifles, assault rifles, and battle rifles, and the ammunition sure as hell never got that hot then. Heat doesn't come from nowhere. The heat of a bullet comes from the ignition of the powder charge, and you can't tell me that gunpowder gets that hot, because, if it did, an ordinary lead bullet would vaporize as it left the barrel, never even coming close to a target. Even on those armor piercing DU rounds I've talked about, the heat has to come from somewhere. They vaporize on impact because of the impact. The amount of energy released by an object of the bullet's weight and velocity impacting, let's say, steel is enourmous. It is enough to vaporize the tip of the round, as well as the armor it hits. I'll add guns to the list of the many things you need to research before making stupid-ass remarks.
P.S. yep, I still think you're a [* MOD ACTION: personal attacks and flaming are not accepted on these forums -- if this continues, threads will be moved wholesale to troll country and accounts may be suspended *]
You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.
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I'm a chemist... and I agree. But I was't even gonna go there because to take the time to refute PN is to give more credance to his posts than they deserve.
---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.
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So at last we have an answer.
PIRATEJEW has "Loss of hearing" confirmed by USAF.
That explains why he NEVER LISTENS.
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