Browncoats that think the West is on track with world politics.

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Friday, December 5, 2025 21:32
VIEWED: 9747
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CHRISISALL

Monday, April 17, 2006 9:27 PM

Are Bush and Blair doing their best?

Is torture at Gitmo just an understandable, if unfortunate, feature of war?

Are terrorists being hunted down as best they can be, and is the protest over how the war is going in America just a fad whipped up by the left?

Is the world economy just fine, with the tempory deficits to be expected in war time?

Is death and destruction a natural part of on-going Human History, and nothing to be so shocked over?

Is 'The Alliance' of Firefly just a tool for drama, and something our world could never really sink to?

*Just curious as to the thinking involved in accepting Bush, or any world leader, at their word, and backing their actions, no matter how ill-concieved they may seem, without much question.

Chrisisall

SERGEANTX

Monday, April 17, 2006 9:41 PM

Is Chrisisall baiting conservatives?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

KHYRON

Monday, April 17, 2006 9:43 PM

lol, I think this thread will probably be fun, especially once the pirates and the conservatives become involved.

My answers: no, no, no, probably, yes (still not nice, though), who knows.

Not in the mood to explain why, it's all been said before.

Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

GEEZER

Monday, April 17, 2006 10:01 PM

Chris, are you still beating your significant other?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

OLDENGLANDDRY

Monday, April 17, 2006 10:01 PM

I'm going to need to think about this one before I can give a reasoned response.
In the meantime I'll wait for PN's inevitable rant to happen.
I urge everyone here to ignore him when he does.

CHRISISALL

Monday, April 17, 2006 10:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Chris, are you still beating your significant other?

No, in point of actual fact, she broke my leg in Aikido class some time back; I couldn't actually 'beat' her, even if I wanted to, she'd hurt me.
She's like Zoe that way.

What does that have to do with this thread; I'm missing something funny...?

Chrisisall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Monday, April 17, 2006 10:13 PM

Wow, this is loaded thread.

“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important then his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertion of better men then himself.” -- John Stuart Mill

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CHRISISALL

Monday, April 17, 2006 10:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Wow, this is loaded thread.

Yeah, ain't it cool?

Travolta-like Chrisisall

CITIZEN

Monday, April 17, 2006 10:35 PM

Of course it's the left thats the problem. They're all a bunch of anti-war peacenik wishy washy cowardly warmongering psychopaths who are responcible for all conflicts ever who wouldn't raise a finger to defend themselves if their lives depended on it.

Capiche.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

CHRISISALL

Monday, April 17, 2006 10:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
anti-war peacenik wishy washy cowardly warmongering psychopaths who are responcible for all conflicts ever who wouldn't raise a finger to defend themselves if their lives depended on it.

ILLOGICAL! ILLOGICAL! PLEASE EXPLAIN. ONLY HUMANS CAN EXPLAIN THE BEHAVIOUR OF....NORMAN, CO-ORDINATE!!!

REAVERMAN

Monday, April 17, 2006 10:56 PM

My God... PN is nowhere to be found! You'd think he'd have already jumped in and bombarded us with tales and images of atrocities the British-Commie-Nazi-Alien-Jew NWO has committed. Wow, this is nice. It's a clean thread! Almost devoid of nonsense and craziness .

Wow, let me just take in this moment...

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

CHRISISALL

Monday, April 17, 2006 11:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by reaverman:
It's a clean thread! Almost devoid of nonsense and craziness .

I resent that.
I put a lot of work into my nonsense.

Chrisisall

CITIZEN

Monday, April 17, 2006 11:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
ILLOGICAL! ILLOGICAL! PLEASE EXPLAIN. ONLY HUMANS CAN EXPLAIN THE BEHAVIOUR OF....NORMAN, CO-ORDINATE!!!

They also hate puppies and freedom.

Everything I say is a Lie.
Harry MuddIsAll...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

DARKJESTER

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 12:00 AM

Quote:
ILLOGICAL! ILLOGICAL! PLEASE EXPLAIN. ONLY HUMANS CAN EXPLAIN THE BEHAVIOUR OF....NORMAN, CO-ORDINATE!!!

Logic is a pretty flower that smells BAD!

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

http://www.fireflytalk.com - Big Damn Podcast

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 12:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DarkJester:

Logic is a pretty flower that smells BAD!

Uhhhhh..
*deactivates, with like, fumes and such*

Irritantisall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 1:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Of course it's the left thats the problem. They're all a bunch of anti-war peacenik wishy washy cowardly warmongering psychopaths who are responcible for all conflicts ever who wouldn't raise a finger to defend themselves if their lives depended on it.

Alrighty, if you say so; I won't argue.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

GINOBIFFARONI

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 1:58 AM

no

no

yes

no

yes, including 911

no, it is going to happen

never accept any of them at their word... get the facts and make up your own mind

" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html

REAVERMAN

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 2:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by reaverman:
It's a clean thread! Almost devoid of nonsense and craziness .

I resent that.
I put a lot of work into my nonsense.

Chrisisall

I said almost devoid of nonsense and craziness.

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

SASSALICIOUS

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 3:37 AM

no

no

no

possibly; i'm not an economist

absolutely, though much could be avoided

it could happen. look at china.

Now to add something else, but substitute "America" for "West" in your statement: What do the following countries all have in common?

-Ireland, New Zealand, Latvia, Finland, The Philippines, Bangladesh, Mozambique, Sao Tome and Principe, Germany, Chile, Liberia, Jamaica, Argentina, Iceland, Malta, Nicaragua, Sri Lanka, Guyana, Switzerland, Panama, Indonesia, India, Israel, Central African Republic, United Kingdom, Dominica, Norway, Yugoslavia, PAKISTAN, Poland, Turkey, and Senegal?

They all currently have/in the past have had female Presidents or Prime Ministers. And the list is even longer if it includes interim heads of state (Bolivia, Haiti, Mongolia, Rwanda, Ukraine, etc) OR presently reigning monarchs/governer generals.

FLETCH2

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 3:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Of course it's the left thats the problem. They're all a bunch of anti-war peacenik wishy washy cowardly warmongering psychopaths who are responcible for all conflicts ever who wouldn't raise a finger to defend themselves if their lives depended on it.

Capiche.

No you're wrong, the left are a bunch of hard core militaristic hard men that have started every war and set up every dodgy government since the Romans (leftist rabble.)

Dreamtrove's cousin's aunt told him, it's not his fault if people and dictionaries don't use words like he and his 2 friends do and besides he's researched it, even if he doesnt have time to explain that now.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:16 AM

Also his sister told him.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:31 AM

The reason why PN isn't here is because Geezer is standing in for him....

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

CALBECK

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 6:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
*Just curious as to the thinking involved in accepting Bush, or any world leader, at their word, and backing their actions, no matter how ill-concieved they may seem, without much question.

I've never been a fan of Bush. I always thought he was a mediocre candidate for the office, primarily empowered by the in-depth support network created by his daddy and Reagan. I didn't vote for him in 2000. Likewise, I didn't vote for Gore, because if anything he was even more mealy-mouthed and incapable than Bush. I put him just a tiny notch above Dan Quayle, and I'd move to Australia if Quayle ever took the Presidency.

All that said and done, Kerry and Edwards scared the bejeezus out of me in their efforts to out-scream Howard Dean. At first I thought Kerry would stick to what won him the nomination --- his ability to present himself as calm, cool, and collected. You know, "presidential timber". But then he began frothing at the mouth trying to whip the hard-left Dems into ever-higher tantrums. And succeeded.

What tore it for me is when Edwards, during the debate with Cheney, started harping on the death toll in Iraq claiming that US troops had taken 90% of all Coalition casualties. Cheney corrected him, pointing out that Iraq was now also part of the Coalition, and its nascent police and military were THE primary target of the insurrection. In the end, the Iraqis were taking FIFTY percent of the casualties.

Cheney's figures check out even with anti-war sites. Our Iraqi allies ARE the ones doing the majority of the bleeding.

But Edwards just started repeating himself over and over. He would not do the right thing and admit to not having counted Iraqi dead in his figures. And the only reason I could see that he didn't was to pump up the emotional level with false figures.

And the Dems just eat it up. These days no Democrat rally is complete without a "Bush = Hitler" sign. That's just way too extreme for me, and there doesn't seem to be anyone in the Democratic Party willing to stand up and call for cooler heads to prevail. Instead, it's become an entire party of Howard Deans, with Dean himself as the actual real-life Chairman of the party.

I'm no fan of Bush.

But the Democrats scare the HELL out of me.

RUXTON

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 6:52 AM

If anyone thinks there's a nickel's worth of difference between Dems and Repubs, you're WAY behind the curve. The two parties are essentially identical, and as long as folks think they're different, we're going to get the same kind of dogpoop we've been getting from Washington, DC.

CALBECK

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 7:16 AM

I concur. Unfortunately, every time I run for office as a centrist, no one is willing to get up off their ass and support me with more than "go get 'em tiger" speeches.

I've been a balloted candidate for Governor of Arizona. I was able to smack around both parties in the televised debates, ending with a literal standing ovation from the TV studio audience. But I only had $1,000 to run on because even my closest supporters wouldn't pop open their wallets.

Arizona currently has the Clean Elections Act in place, which the Repubs have been trying to destroy since its inception. It gives a state grant of over $1,000,000 to any gubernatorial candidate who refuses to take PAC funds...and who also manages to collect 4,000 signatures. The trick is that each signature must come with a $5 donation to the Clean Elections fund, and while plenty of people are willing to sign petitions for office, they aren't willing to part with the price of one damn Happy Meal.

I'd be happy to be part of a tide of new politicos fighting for public service over party loyalties. But it doesn't appear that the electorate is willing to put its money where its mouth is.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 7:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Of course it's the left thats the problem. They're all a bunch of anti-war peacenik wishy washy cowardly warmongering psychopaths who are responcible for all conflicts ever who wouldn't raise a finger to defend themselves if their lives depended on it.
Alrighty, if you say so; I won't argue.

Well, if the conservatives are too be believed. Add 'em all together and that's the opinion you get.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 1:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Add 'em all together and that's the opinion you get.

So Citizen, why exactly do you always end up supporting Blair and Bush, even when you SEE them planting the seeds of The Alliance?

Chrisisall

CITIZEN

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 1:12 PM

I don't. I also don't say Liberals are responcible for all wars one minute and are too cowardly to fight the next if that fits my purposes .

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 2:04 PM

It's all the fault of bi-peds. Stinkin' homosapien trash.
Shoulda stayed in the trees where they belong.

*Appologies to those who believe in Intelligent Design for the evolutionary-like slur above*

*Appologies to those who hold with Evolutionary Theory for the appology above*

*Appologies to bi-peds who didn't vote for Bush or Blair*

Sorry Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 2:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The reason why PN isn't here is because Geezer is standing in for him....

But he didn't even reply to my explaining how I dont beat my SO, that seem right to you?
It seems he's asked that question of quite a few here, what's his fixation w/the idea? Does he have repressed Gitmo fever?

Chrisisall

HERO

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 2:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Are Bush and Blair doing their best?

I think Bush is doing not only his best, but he is doing what is best for the country and the world. Blair is an ocean away, so my opinion is tempered by distance. I think Blair is generally "spot on" with his positions supporting the US and Isreal, but not always. For example, he needs a harder line against Iran.

Quote:

Is torture at Gitmo just an understandable, if unfortunate, feature of war?

There is no torture at Gitmo. Just a few air conditioned cells, good food, prayer rugs, and every now and then some fellows in nice suits stopping by for a chat.

Quote:

Are terrorists being hunted down as best they can be, and is the protest over how the war is going in America just a fad whipped up by the left?

These are two very different questions. Terrorists are being hunted down the best they can be under the current law and political circumstances.

The protest against the war is not a fad whipped up by the left. Its very real, but has never been about the war. The anti-war movement predated 9/11 and began life as the anti-Bush movement that resulted from the fallout from the 2000 election. This movement joined forces with a number of other movements like the anti-world trade movement, CBS Evening News, the enviromentalists, PETA, Iraqi intellegence, the anarchists, MoveOn.org, and the Democratic National Committee...etc and so on. Their goal is to undermine Bush, the war is just the tool they are using.

Quote:

Is the world economy just fine, with the tempory deficits to be expected in war time?

The US economy is fine. Growth good, unemployment down. There is much more that could be done. Interest rates need to fall a bit, wages need to rise, we need reform in key sectors like health care. But compared to the failed antiquated systems in Europe, the semi-socialist slavery of China, or the corruption of Russia, we are doing great. The world economy is suffering, but mostly from local ignorance.

Quote:

Is death and destruction a natural part of on-going Human History, and nothing to be so shocked over?

Yes, more issues have been settled by death and destruction then any other method. I suggest you consult the City fathers of Carthage or the King of France for further notes on the subject (Heinlein could teach you a bit too). But yes, you should be shocked and appalled by it. War, death, violence are terrible things. Yet here we are, still flyin as a race.

America is the key you know. We invented the world's most destructive weapon, used it to end decisively history's most destructive conflict. Ever since then our mission has been to make war as rare as possible and to limit war's death and destruction as much as possible. Now when we bomb a building, the City, often the surrounding neighborhood, is sparred destruction. Battles are fought with hundreds or thousands, not tens or hundreds of thousands. Countries fall with the death of thousands, not millions. And no conquering nation has ever spent so much of its own wealth rebuilding its former enemies and hoping to turn them into friends and allies...in fact, up until the last hald century...a conquered nation was looted of the spoils of war.

Quote:

Is 'The Alliance' of Firefly just a tool for drama, and something our world could never really sink to?

You watch too much TV. Everybody knows that Kevin Costner will rule the world to come by delivering mail on his little boat to a world covered in water and populated by swimming buffalo and he'll do it because he truly loves baseball.

Quote:

*Just curious as to the thinking involved in accepting Bush, or any world leader, at their word, and backing their actions, no matter how ill-concieved they may seem, without much question.

The problem comes from the premise. Their actions are not ill-concieved and they have been very successful.

Perhaps we could add to

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 2:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Well, if the conservatives are too be believed. Add 'em all together and that's the opinion you get.

Some Conservatives, maybe. But not everyone on the Right of an argument is Ann Coulter and Dreamtrove. Although there are definitely those on the Left that do fit your description.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 2:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
You watch too much TV. Everybody knows that Kevin Costner will rule the world to come by delivering mail on his little boat to a world covered in water and populated by swimming buffalo and he'll do it because he truly loves baseball.

Also he’ll actively enforce income redistribution with the help of various merry men.

Wow! Its 1000 on a Teusday and I'm not even dressed. I feel like Jeanine garofalo.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 3:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

The problem comes from the premise. Their actions are not ill-concieved and they have been very successful.

Perhaps we could add to you narrow questions, is the Democratic Party actively seeking failure in the war on terror in order to further its own political agenda? What about France, same question? Should the US use military force against Iran before or after they use nuclear weapons against Isreal or the United States? There are many questions beyond your limited imagination.

I don't see that their actions have been that sucessfull. Bin-Laden is alive. The Saudis remain our friends, even though they funded and/or facilitated (probably) 911.
Yes, the Democrats are probably eager to see the war on terror fail so they can use it, they are as miserably corrupt as Neo-Cons.
The Iranians won't use Nuclear weapons on us or Israel; we would literally vaporize them, and they know it.
That said...

I thank you, sir, for a genuinely illuminating post; I see that our differences lie mainly in perception, I see some of yours as faulty, and vica versa. I will continue to re-examine my belief system to make corrections as necessary, with assistance from other views such as yours. I feel that both our imaginations can be limited at times.

*But I still see Bush as an unintellegent, directionless lackey of the Military Industrial Complex (subject to change w/out notice).

Momentarily ad-hominem-less Chrisisall (unless 'lackey' qualifies)

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 3:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Also he’ll actively enforce income redistribution with the help of various merry men.

You are never serious, Finn

.

The always-serious, never in jest Chrisisall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 3:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
The Iranians won't use Nuclear weapons on us or Israel; we would literally vaporize them, and they know it.

The Iranians would never use nuclear weapons against us. But if some Muhammad al-anyfruitcakeymuslim happened to come upon a nuclear device, by accident,

and then accidentally went off in Tel Aviv, who could blame the Iranians?

One of the major criticisms that came out of the 9/ll commission is that the lack of a more active hard-line position against Afghanistan was one of possible root causes for 9/ll. I don’t know what to do about Iran either, personally, but when I see people making statements that downplay or ignore the Iranian threat based on nothing more then the assumption of what the US might do in response, I see us making the same mistakes in thinking that may have led, in part, to 9/ll.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
You are never serious, Finn.

Is this better?

Damnit, now its 1030 and I'm still not dressed. I think my XO might be pissed.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 3:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The Iranians would never use nuclear weapons against us. But if some Muhammad al-anyfruitcakeymuslim happened to come upon a nuclear device, by accident, and then accidentally went off in Tel Aviv, who could blame the Iranians?

Again, thanks for that view, it is perfectly valid, and one I was not taking into account in my desire to be right. I need to make another correction.

Chrisisall, feeling a distinct lack of snark today

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 3:44 PM

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Are Bush and Blair doing their best? - Clearly, more could be done. But more also could be done in reporting the success which have been achieved

Is torture at Gitmo just an understandable, if unfortunate, feature of war? - That's a bogus question, as the premise if bogus. There is no torture in Gitmo, only fabricatd accounts of it by a radical Left wing media. In fact, most of those serving time down there have never had it so good. I know this view rubs against what EVERYBODY has been told, but its true.

Are terrorists being hunted down as best they can be, and is the protest over how the war is going in America just a fad whipped up by the left? 0 Well, you already asked the 1st part of the question. And as for the protest against the war, much of it IS organized and whipped up by anti American/anti Capitalist groups.

Is the world economy just fine, with the tempory deficits to be expected in war time? -
Most of the US defecit isn't a result of the war, but of massive hand outs and entitlement spending. Shame on W for that. But the US economy is doing quite well.

Is death and destruction a natural part of on-going Human History, and nothing to be so shocked over? - Sadly, yes. But also, no. Yes, it's part of the human condition, and no, we should be shocked. But in regards to the war in Iraq, US led forces have done FAR more to keep innocents out of harms way than any other time in history.

Is 'The Alliance' of Firefly just a tool for drama, and something our world could never really sink to? It makes for great drama. No such Gov't form could ever rule the planet. Or planets

*Just curious as to the thinking involved in accepting Bush, or any world leader, at their word, and backing their actions, no matter how ill-concieved they may seem, without much question.
Bush is only a here for a short time. His 2 terms will be up and then he'll be out of office. Should be interesting to see what happens next. Like it was after Clinton.

Chrisisall

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 5:12 PM

Calbeck,

Dude, if you can't get 4,000 people to cough up $5 each in the internet era, there is something wrong with your message. Look at the guy who managed to trade a red paperclip for a house in ten moves.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

RUE

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 5:16 PM

Zero

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Is torture at Gitmo just an understandable, if unfortunate, feature of war?

There is no torture at Gitmo. Just a few air conditioned cells, good food, prayer rugs, and every now and then some fellows in nice suits stopping by for a chat.

The problem with Zero is that I can never tell if he's being funny on purpose or if he's just making a fool of himself by accident. It leaves me in a quandary. I don't know if I should laugh with him, or at him.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

RUE

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 6:18 PM

Are Bush and Blair doing their best (at world politics)?

Best at what? Gaining the cooperation of allies? Supporting international justice? Creating a solid majority around the world that by sheer numbers and satisfaction would reduce extremists to a small, isolated, unpopular minority? Hardly.

Is torture at Gitmo just an understandable, if unfortunate, feature of war?

Why restrict yourself to Gitmo? What about Bagram, abu Ghraib, and exported torture? But to address Gitmo - yes, there is torture there as determined by both the Red Cross and the UN. Is it understandable? If the idea is to get information, then no, torture is not understandable, as information gained by it is unreliable. Is it unfortunate? It's worse. It's counterproductive, creating more enemies than it eliminates.

a) Are terrorists being hunted down as best they can be

No. A lot of resources and freedoms are lost 'hunting down' Quakers and other ordinary Americans. Meanwhile real terrorists have been running free for years. The ICC could have had bin Laden if the US had agreed with Afghanistan to have him turned over to that court.

b)and is the protest over how the war (in Iraq?) is going in America just a fad whipped up by the left?

What protest? That it's increasingly unpopular is due to the fact the administration made too many statements that didn't come true. Mission accomplished. Hard-line Saddam loyalists will give up and crawl away once he's caught. It's all in Fallujah, we just need to clean up the town. Once they have elections all will be well. Things are getting better and better every day in every way.

a) Is the world economy just fine
In the long-term, it will not be able to go along with business as usual.

b) with the temporary deficits to be expected in war time?
You can't spend your way out of a deficit UNLESS you are investing in infrastructure. The US was running a surplus when Bush took office, EVEN WITH THAT 'HORRIBLE WASTEFUL' SOCIAL SPENDING. That quickly turned around, stunningly quickly, with the deficit due in equal part to tax breaks for the rich, and the war. The bill will come due.

Is death and destruction a natural part of on-going Human History, and nothing to be so shocked over?

Well, death is inevitable for every one of us. War is not. Whole civilizations have gone on for hundreds of years and never fought or made a war. We know that b/c they had no war gods, no heroic monuments, no armaments, no armies - in short, no material evidence of any war capability or history. So war is not inevitable, and we condemn ourselves to fear and misery if we tell ourselves it is.

Is 'The Alliance' of Firefly just a tool for drama, and something our world could never really sink to?

It already has here and there. It doesn't have to be that way, though.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Calbeck,

Dude, if you can't get 4,000 people to cough up $5 each in the internet era, there is something wrong with your message. Look at the guy who managed to trade a red paperclip for a house in ten moves.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

Or the British Uni student who made a million selling pixels on his website:
http://milliondollarhomepage.com/

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Some Conservatives, maybe. But not everyone on the Right of an argument is Ann Coulter and Dreamtrove. Although there are definitely those on the Left that do fit your description.

Oh I agree. But people seem to be making lots of sweeping statements lately, and I felt left out.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
It's all the fault of bi-peds. Stinkin' homosapien trash.
Shoulda stayed in the trees where they belong.

*Appologies to those who believe in Intelligent Design for the evolutionary-like slur above*

*Appologies to those who hold with Evolutionary Theory for the appology above*

*Appologies to bi-peds who didn't vote for Bush or Blair*

Sorry Chrisisall

I find your backpeddeling insulting you commie.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

ERIC

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Are Bush and Blair doing their best?

Doing their best to do what? Take over the world? Sure, I think so. Using the military to control the planet is an explicitly stated goal of the PNAC. Read their manifesto:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Heck, don't even read it all, just read the introductory pages i-v. Everything the neocons have done is to further their goals. What they say is irrelevant. In this context, many of your subsequent questions become meaningless, because they imply a certain amount of honesty and sense of morality on their part.

(BTW, according to the manifesto, they want to create a US Starfleet to conquer the galaxy

)

Quote:

Are terrorists being hunted down as best they can be, and is the protest over how the war is going in America just a fad whipped up by the left?

Terrorists are the neocons' greatest ally.
There is no protest.

Quote:

Is the world economy just fine, with the tempory deficits to be expected in war time?

Cheney: "Deficits don't matter."

http://www.issues2000.org/2004/Dick_Cheney_Budget_+_Economy.htm

Quote:

Is death and destruction a natural part of on-going Human History, and nothing to be so shocked over?

War is good for business.

GINOBIFFARONI

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 3:23 AM

You missed Canada : smile:

" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html

SASSALICIOUS

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 3:46 AM

Dammit.

CHRISISALL

Friday, April 21, 2006 6:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Is 'The Alliance' of Firefly just a tool for drama, and something our world could never really sink to? It makes for great drama. No such Gov't form could ever rule the planet. Or planets

Dude, I am willing to try and see other perspectives, and I disagree with you about as much as I agree, but this one statement here is what people like Hitler love; the carpet can't be snatched out from under you unless you believe it to be nailed down.
ALWAYS keep a look out, anything is possible.

Vigilant Chrisisall

CITIZEN

Saturday, April 22, 2006 12:17 AM

Words from Joss Whedons mouth regarding the Alliance:
"Mal’s politics are very reactionary and “Big government is bad” and “Don’t interfere with my life.” And sometimes he’s wrong—because sometimes the Alliance is America, this beautiful shining light of democracy. But sometimes the Alliance is America in Vietnam: we have a lot of petty politics, we are way out of our league and we have no right to control these people. And yet! Sometimes the Alliance is America in Nazi Germany. And Mal can’t see that, because he was a Vietnamese."

As it is with AURaptor. Sometimes America is the USA in Vietnam, but he can't see it because all he can see is America in Nazi Germany.

To him even suggesting 'America in Vietnam' is grossly anti-American and makes you a terrorist supporter.

But on the subject of Nazi Germany, I thought a totalitarian dictatorship (which the Alliance isn't by any stretch of the imagination) couldn't ever gain power?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

CRAJON

Saturday, April 22, 2006 12:36 AM

Chrisisall
I have read the replies to what you asked but one thing I must ask. Have you been in the military ? If you had then you would know the answers to what you asked. I went to Iraq and other places around the world and know first hand the evil that terrorism causes. You sleep safe at night, live in an country where you can speak your mind without fear of being jailed but yet you fail to understand the world.

AUNTYCHRIS

Saturday, April 22, 2006 1:56 AM

Interesting info... of course, you see that the U.S. is NOT on that list. That says something very important, and I believe pertinent to the questions of this thread.
As to the specific questions:

Trust Bush and Blair? Not Bloody likely.

Torture necessary? Realistically, yes.

No!No!No! The economy is in danger of tilting worse that the magnetic poles did in the past, in other words complete reversal of fortune for the majority of non-rich peoples.

Yes, death and destruction are inevitable as long as some people refuse to "evolve".

"Alliance" world possible? I shutter to think of it.

NO!No!No! Never believe anything any of them say. They all "spin" in their own favor. (Even Clinton: I did not have sex with that woman (meaning: SHE had sex with me. Get it? SPIN!)

SASSALICIOUS

Saturday, April 22, 2006 2:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Crajon:
Chrisisall
I have read the replies to what you asked but one thing I must ask. Have you been in the military ? If you had then you would know the answers to what you asked. I went to Iraq and other places around the world and know first hand the evil that terrorism causes. You sleep safe at night, live in an country where you can speak your mind without fear of being jailed but yet you fail to understand the world.

Yes, terrorism causes a lot of evil. I don't think many people would disagree with that. However, I tend to think that a broadly defined "War on Terror" is ultimately going to be highly ineffective. Terrorism has been a part of human history for at least a few thousand years and it will probably continue to exist for another few thousand years. Unless of course we manage to successfully annihilate ourselves. The form/methods/perpetrators will change, but the concept and idea won't.

And no, I haven't been in the military, but I have a lot of family members that have and a few friends that currently are.

AUNTYCHRIS

Saturday, April 22, 2006 2:25 AM

It is unfortunate that the fanatical beliefs of a few are jeopardizing the hard-won freedoms of so many. And by jeopardizing freedoms I mean the curtailing of free speech, free press, and choice of religion. It is a sad day when Americans cannot express their opinions openly. Frankly, I am confused, when the archaic beliefs of one religion are protected while the commonly held beliefs of this country are maligned. Keep in mind, I am not a Christian, but all that nonsense about "say Holiday, not Christmas" just threw me. This is supposed to be the one place on earth where everyone is FREE to practice (or not practice) their own chosen religion. The only reason I can condone for fighting this war in Iraq is to try to break this hold the radical fundamentalists have on Islam. People must be free to make their own choice when it comes to religion. Unfortunately, this is not really a religious war, it is also a political war, and that, my friends, is a whole other "animal"...

RUE

Saturday, April 22, 2006 2:35 AM

Crayon,

you live in an country where you can speak your mind without fear of being jailed

Really? Tell that to the Quakers and other ordinary innocent Americans who ended up on FBI lists for disagreeing with Bush. The FBI admits it has the lists, says these people are innocent, but says it won't delete them. How about Americans who were secretly wire-tapped? It wasn't haste, it's that Bush says the wire-taps should *never* be reviewed by a court. These people did nothing wrong. All they did was exercise their constitutional right to free speech.

You have to keep in mind what Bush said: "either you are with us, OR YOU ARE WITH THE TERRORISTS." Does that sound democratic to you?

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, April 22, 2006 1:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Crajon:
Chrisisall
I have read the replies to what you asked but one thing I must ask. Have you been in the military ?

No, but I grew up in rough schools where you had to learn to fight to keep your lunch money, 'cause the teachers didn't or couldn't control the students. Fighting was as natural to me as riding a bike was to most kids. That type of 'combat experience' here in my own 'safe' country count?

Quote:
If you had then you would know the answers to what you asked.

I actually pretty much know (or think I do) the answers to my questions; just seein' if there are any perspectives new to me out there.

Quote:
I went to Iraq and other places around the world and know first hand the evil that terrorism causes. You sleep safe at night, live in an country where you can speak your mind without fear of being jailed but yet you fail to understand the world.

*fuzzy* In what way do I fail?
Did I get a 'D' or an 'F'?
My knowledge of muzzle velocities is rather limited...

Relativly safe at night Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Saturday, April 22, 2006 1:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

To him even suggesting 'America in Vietnam' is grossly anti-American and makes you a terrorist supporter.

Spot-on I wager.
Thanks for the quote, too, I'd not read that one!

Chrisisall, Alliance supporter

CRAJON

Sunday, April 23, 2006 4:20 AM

Chrisisall,
Rough schools,eh.Not the same but if in your mind it is then okay. Someday you will may learn what you failed in.
I do know muzzle velocities and seen , treated the damage that is caused by them to people both military and civilian. Hope never to do that again but if I am asked to do it once more, then I will.

CHRISISALL

Sunday, April 23, 2006 3:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Crajon:

Rough schools,eh.Not the same but if in your mind it is then okay. Someday you will may learn what you failed in.

I was being somewhat sarcastic, no non-life or death experience compares to armed combat; I know that. I just don't 'get' your attitude. Are my questions at the top invalid because I've never been shot at (directly)? Or because my mother died from cancer and not shrapnel?
Care to elaborate, dude?

Curious Chrisisall

RUE

Sunday, April 23, 2006 5:54 PM

I've made a point of baiting the bushbabies. It's not that they don't know what's what, they're acutely aware of the gap between bushbaby and normality. They try to paper it over in every post. So I would expect resopnding personal attacks.

What's interesting to me is their pathetic level of argument. They are attacking everyone as moronic, homo, unpatriotic cowards in every thread, rather than debating issues. It comes across as desperate.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

CHRISISALL

Sunday, April 23, 2006 5:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
they're acutely aware of the gap between bushbaby and normality.

Question: Bushbaby?

Acutely un-aware Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Sunday, April 23, 2006 6:28 PM

Belay that answer, Rue, I figgered it out.

I feel a "D'oh" comin' on...

Slow Chrisisall

ROCKET333

Sunday, April 23, 2006 6:47 PM

The us goverment is good at us politics and not at world politics...wait a minute...they aren't good at politics period.

throughout history the pendulum has swung back and forth. Just now we have so much technology so quick we can blow ourselves all up. wait a minute not us all, them really, THey can blow us all up. If there where no skyscraper coperations, yachts and other marveouls frillious things. I wonder if people would want money so much. Anyway. YOu know I really am just rambling forgive me...

Well. I think once you get real rich, and you have anything money is not even important enough to get you the best yacht, cause you already have it so mabye you just need more and more and more of anything you can get your hands on. Life expectancy is longer now too. So imagine when people start living to be 150 they will have alot more time to live out there power monging fanatsies. Peasents... well we have militas...THankfully I don't really live in reality too much. I wonder if donald trump has his own personal army. God I hate that show. I have enough of a time in life to buy a pack of ciggerettes I don't care who gets fired or not.

Hey. I read somewhere that the the goverment of the world thinks the world is destroying itself they have plans for evacuation and they are bringing some cooperative peasents withthem to mars. I really read this too. I don't know...who even knows whats true or not now.

RUE

Thursday, April 27, 2006 4:36 AM

EU Lawmakers Allege Numerous CIA Flights By JAN SLIVA, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 32 minutes ago

The CIA has conducted more than 1,000 clandestine flights in Europe since 2001, and some of them secretly took away terror suspects to countries where they could face torture, European Union lawmakers said Wednesday.

Legislators selected to look into allegations of questionable CIA activities in Europe said flight data showed a pattern of hidden operations by American agents, and they accused some European governments of knowing about it but remaining silent.

Cases of terror suspects being secretly handed over to U.S. agents did not appear to be isolated, the lawmakers said in a preliminary report on their inquiry. European human rights treaties prohibit sending suspects to states known to torture prisoners.

"The committee deplores the fact that, as established during the committee's investigation, the CIA has used aircraft registered under fictitious company names or with private companies to secretly transfer terror suspects to other countries including Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Afghanistan," according to a copy of the report obtained by The Associated Press.

The CIA declined to comment, as did European Union officials, who have said previously that there was no irrefutable proof of such hand-overs, which are known as "extraordinary renditions."

The investigation began in January after news reports that U.S. agents had interrogated al-Qaida suspects at secret prisons in eastern Europe. But the focus shifted after people gave detailed accounts of being abducted by U.S. agents in Europe and whisked away to jails in the Middle East, Asia and North Africa.

Few of those who testified at the committee hearings touched on the alleged secret prisons in eastern Europe first reported by The Washington Post in November. Italian lawmaker Giovanni Fava, who wrote the report, said the committee would look into those allegations later.

The lawmakers based their initial report on data provided by Eurocontrol, the EU's air safety agency, and more than 50 hours of testimony by EU officials, rights groups and individuals who said they were kidnapped and tortured by U.S. agents.

Eurocontrol said the number of clandestine CIA flights over Europe was likely to be higher than 1,000 because the agency checked only flight plans for fewer than 50 aircraft used by the CIA.

"We were requested by EU Parliament to make an analysis of the flight routes for these planes. There may be others," said Jean-Jacques Sauvage, a senior official of the Brussels-based agency. He said Eurocontrol did not keep track of who was on the planes.

The report said that on a number of occasions the CIA was clearly responsible for detaining terror suspects on European territory and transferring them to countries where they could face torture.

Fava told the AP it was unclear how many people were transferred by the CIA on undeclared flights. He also said there was no evidence proving complicity by European officials, but called it unlikely that some governments, such as in Italy, Bosnia and Sweden, knew nothing about the CIA operations.

He accused the CIA of breaching the Chicago Convention, an international treaty governing air traffic. It requires aircraft used in military, customs and police operations to seek special authorization to land in signatory states.

U.S. officials previously said that as of late December, some 100 to 150 people had been seized in "rendition" operations involving detaining terror suspects in one country and flying them to their home country or another where they were wanted for a crime or questioning.

The officials, who agreed to discuss the operations only if not quoted by name, said the action was reserved for people considered by the CIA to be the most serious terror suspects. But they conceded mistakes had been made and were being investigated by the CIA's inspector general.

Fava cited as one example of "extraordinary rendition" the case of an Egyptian cleric, Osama Moustafa Hassan Nasr,

JAYNEZTOWN

Monday, September 4, 2023 3:43 PM

How China became the king of new nuclear power, and how the U.S. is trying to stage a comeback
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/30/how-china-became-king-of-new-nuclear-p
ower-how-us-could-catch-up.html

Iran, Saudi Arabia among 6 invited to BRICS
https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2023/aug/25/iran-saudi-arabia-among-6-i
nvited-to-brics/

THG

Tuesday, June 24, 2025 2:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

Are Bush and Blair doing their best?

Is torture at Gitmo just an understandable, if unfortunate, feature of war?

Are terrorists being hunted down as best they can be, and is the protest over how the war is going in America just a fad whipped up by the left?

Is the world economy just fine, with the tempory deficits to be expected in war time?

Is death and destruction a natural part of on-going Human History, and nothing to be so shocked over?

Is 'The Alliance' of Firefly just a tool for drama, and something our world could never really sink to?

*Just curious as to the thinking involved in accepting Bush, or any world leader, at their word, and backing their actions, no matter how ill-concieved they may seem, without much question.

Chrisisall

T

THG

Friday, December 5, 2025 9:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

Are Bush and Blair doing their best?

Is torture at Gitmo just an understandable, if unfortunate, feature of war?

Are terrorists being hunted down as best they can be, and is the protest over how the war is going in America just a fad whipped up by the left?

Is the world economy just fine, with the tempory deficits to be expected in war time?

Is death and destruction a natural part of on-going Human History, and nothing to be so shocked over?

Is 'The Alliance' of Firefly just a tool for drama, and something our world could never really sink to?

*Just curious as to the thinking involved in accepting Bush, or any world leader, at their word, and backing their actions, no matter how ill-concieved they may seem, without much question.

Chrisisall

T