IMMIGRATION

POSTED BY: impression
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 2, 2006 20:49
VIEWED: 17117
PAGE 1 of 1

IMPRESSION

Monday, May 1, 2006 1:26 PM

two things:
excerpt from comcast homepage report-By JON SARCHE, Associated Press Writer-
"For Castillo, 45, it's a protest against legislation in the U.S. House that would make it a felony to be an illegal immigrant"
....since when was a felony a good thing or legal?...isnt the point of a felony the fact that its illegal

and then from same report
"A rally in Chicago representing the city's Arab, Asian, black, eastern European and Hispanic communities, along with labor groups and religious leaders, could bring out as many as half a million people, organizers say. They urged immigrant workers to ask for time off and encouraged students to get permission to attend the demonstration."
in my opinion free speech has gotten carried away on a biased level...if a normal, middle class white male or female or christian or any type of person who is a hard-wroking citizen with no issues, all of a sudden had a problem that made sense, wanted to have a movement, theyd get no chance

what do you all think?

DEWRASTLER

Monday, May 1, 2006 1:40 PM

I'm not sure I fully understand this. So illegal immigrants are making a fuss because they don't have the rights of U.S. citizens because they are not...U.S. citizens. Nope, still doesn't make sense.

One day.
One plan.
One army of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.

RIVER6213

Monday, May 1, 2006 3:26 PM

Why are the words “Hard worker” only used when one is speaking about white men? I guess everyone else doesn’t work hard, everyone else must be lazy. Someone needs to wake that boy up from his dream. These Rightwing creepoids are getting out of hand.

All the illegal immigrants now have the numbers to be able to come out and rant. It’s our fault that they managed to make it here. We didn’t protect our borders well enough. We spent years taking advantage of a rapidly, growing illegal aliens population. We even gave them jobs just so we could save a buck, and now we are screaming and crying that their populations is large enough to have the numbers, so now they are in the streets, screaming for their rights? It numbs the mind. This problem is our fault. This problem is the end result of our, collective, laziness. We need to get up off or lazy asses and take some responsibility.

So what do we do? Round them up and ship them back across the border? That would be a great, video boon for networks all over the world….seeing images of illegals being hauled off while they are screaming and crying “I love America!” That would look splendid on CNN! Then the rest of the world would really see our true colors. Or do we actually do something like take responsibility for our laziness, and tighten our border security. Process that whole 12 million illegal and find out who are all the troublemakers and criminals and throw them out, and make the remaining ones citizens and consider the issue closed. We would have paid the price for our laziness.

River Unplugged

You make me sick

IANW

Monday, May 1, 2006 3:34 PM

i have a question:

the illegal immigrants are boycotting US goods today to make their impact. Are they going to boycot medicaid too?

oh wait, tax paying,legal americans are paying for that, nevermind....

VYSE

Monday, May 1, 2006 3:45 PM

Alot of illegal aliens actually pay taxes. They can do it without being punished, get a tax paying number and pay their taxes.

I agree with the earlier post that it is our fault. Why should these people who have built a life here be punished because we didn't secure our borders. If we were defending them strongly for all these years, and we were trying to track down all the illegal immigrants it would be different. Then I would say deport them because they were hiding from our police forces.

A good way to fight this problem would be to punish the companies who hire illegal workers in the first place. If there is no work, they will stop coming.

KAYLEESTHEGREATEST

Monday, May 1, 2006 3:53 PM

i heard of that movement this morning on the news this morning.

Someday the verse will spit in your soup but at least they gave you soup.
one day
one plan
one mission
one army of browncoats
june 23rd serenity day

-Our mission as browncoats is to make us known.

CHRISISALL

Monday, May 1, 2006 3:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Process that whole 12 million illegal and find out who are all the troublemakers and criminals and throw them out, and make the remaining ones citizens and consider the issue closed. We would have paid the price for our laziness.

Well said, R.

Chrisisall Unleashed

DEEPGIRL187

Monday, May 1, 2006 3:57 PM

Everyone just remember one small detail.

The colonists on the Mayflower were illegal immigrants too.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

ONETOOMANY

Monday, May 1, 2006 4:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Vyse:
A good way to fight this problem would be to punish the companies who hire illegal workers in the first place. If there is no work, they will stop coming.

I agree with you about the necessity for going after the companies who hire migrant workers, but there seems to be this belief among some immigrants that people immigrating to a new country don't need to intigrate themselves into the culture by doing things like learning the native language, political & judicial systems, history. In my opinion "OPINION" since the logistics of deporting or arresting the several million people here make it almost impossible. why not register them & give them 9 mos. to a year to legally obtain citizenship. After the initial registration period of oh say 90 days cut off the ability to register for the program & begin arresting & deporting everyone they can get thier hands on. Bottom line If your going to immigrate anywhere do it the right way. It is your responsibility to learn the ways & language of what ever cultre your intigrating to.

P.S. Vyse, I'm not slammin on you, you're quote just gave me a good rant

Notice anythig particular 'bout our luck these past few days, any kind'a pattern'. You depend on luck you end up on the drift no fuel, no prospects, beggin for alliance make work getiin' towed off to the scrap out THAT AIN'T US NOT EVER

IMPRESSION

Monday, May 1, 2006 4:32 PM

Since im not as capable of moving around when replying to other posts, im gunna do each one at a time...river6213....i never said that other people werent hard-working and i wasnt talkin solely about only men...i was using a description of one of many types of average people who dont get a chance to speak when minorities and everyone else does...and minorities, women, whatever...all hard-workers...so get that out of ur mind that im talking about one person-white male...cuz i definitely say different....also...i agree with what you say about everything after your hard-worker comment...im just trying to get a feel for what people are thinking and hear different opinions so that i can justly make mine because sometimes people can have tunnel vision and not see things til its too late and i dont wanna be one of those people

IMPRESSION

Monday, May 1, 2006 4:36 PM

To both IANW and VYSE....about the taxes and medicaid...my grandmothers friend lives in california and she would sit out on her porch at the beginning of the month and watch the mexicans cross the border, pick up their welfare checks from a house that they "live in" and go back across the border...so yeah they may have ways of paying taxes but how many of them actually take the time to do that if there are easier ways to hide from taxes as well as boycott everything except the medicaid we give them as IANW states

IMPRESSION

Monday, May 1, 2006 4:40 PM

history lesson real quick....the vikings landed in canada first...finding north america....the spanish landed in central america and parts of the southern region of north america....the mayflower came last....so when the mexicans wanna claim that whole native american thing...the spanish came here first and gave the indians of mexico disease first and everything that the british are claimed to have done to the native americans...the spanish were here first doing that...so both countries are at fault and the mexicans cannot even claim such things as well once upon a time the mayflower was illegal immigrants without taking the time to say that the spaniards were illegal immigrants too...if im wrong...please correct me...

DEEPGIRL187

Monday, May 1, 2006 4:43 PM

This isn't just about Mexican immigrants, it's about all immigrants. The majority of people throwing stones about illegal immigration have European ancestry, and the fact that they don't acknowledge their own history concerning this matter is hypocritical.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

SASSALICIOUS

Monday, May 1, 2006 4:50 PM

Today is May Day. Today is also International Worker's Day. The rallies in the U.S. are primarily focused on the immigrant labor force (legal and illegal); however, there are worker rallies all over the world today. I think there is a really big one in Indonesia protesting proposed changes in labor laws.

The basic gist I get is this (I don't know a lot because I don't follow immigration. It's not one of the 3 issues dear to my heart and I don't really mind them all that much, even when illegal): We have a decent sized population of illegal immigrants primarily from Mexico, Central, and maybe South America. Bush has legislation that I think, essentially grants working visas to those that are here already and then seriously restricts the ability to get here in the future. There is some other legislation in the works to make it a felony to even help illegal immigrants (including medical). I disagree with the last because it's a doctor's duty to help those in need, regardless of political status, but I digress. So I think most of the marches are in support of Bush's legislation, or at least part of it.

But I do think a more effective approach would be to go after the businesses that hire illegal immigrants than the immigrants themselves. However, if we did that I feel we'd find that a number of our wealthy politicians have illegal immigrants for nannies, groundskeepers, and homebuilders. Majority of the houses in Jupiter, FL are built by Guatemalans. Most of the nannies down there are Guatemalan.

The thing is, everyone is bitching about the illegals being here, but if you stop and think about it many aspects of our daily lives have been constructed by these illegal immigrants.

Some are against them because they are "taking jobs away from Americans". I don't know that I buy that. Maybe in a few instances yes, but not too much. Most work incredibly low paying jobs that no one else wants because one must lead a lifestyle right near the poverty line and no one wants that. However the immigrants are evidence that it is possible to survive on very little money (though not easy. Read "Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America" for evidence).

And now that I've gotten completely tangential, I'm going to stop rambling. Ultimately, I sometimes think it's an issue that's been brought to the forefront to distract people from other administration failings, just this one happened to get way more people worked up than gay rights and women's reproductive rights (though all issues arguably fall under the heading "human rights").

P.S. There's a thread about this in RWED

EDIT: Free speech hasn't gotten carried away. If you have an issue you can bring it up. It's just the incredibly vocal fundies label anyone who speaks out about reproductive rights a "baby killing liberal whore" or people who protest the war as "anti-American" and "on the side of the terrorists". It's hard to speak up anymore without getting shot down by our borderline fascist government, but this issue has rallied people on all sides of the spectrum because the left is focused on the rights of the immigrants and the right (business) doesn't want to lose the cheap labor force.

MONKSDAD

Monday, May 1, 2006 5:09 PM

The 11 million people that have made it here are here, and I cant blame them for wanting to come here, our country is just shiny compared to Mexico. But They are not going anywere. The focus needs to be on how to stop the flow of the next 11 million at the border. I do have to say that there boycott/wildcat strike is going to totally backfire on them and is a bad idea.

"And I think calling him that is an insult to the psychotic lowlife community."

JRC

Monday, May 1, 2006 5:13 PM

My opinion on these illegal immigrants: they should all do what my grandparents did: become naturalized citizens (yes, I am Hispanic). Maybe give them a year to do it. Otherwise, ship 'em outta here, and use the Border Patrol and military (National Guard or regular Army) to guard both the southern and northern borders (didn't terrorists infiltrate America crossing the border with Canada?) Also, fine employers who knowingly hire illegals to work for them.
Why would these people think they could come here to America illegally and then expect the same rights and priveleges as legal immigrants and American citizens???

Everyone dies alone.

VYSE

Monday, May 1, 2006 5:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ONETOOMANY:
Quote:
Originally posted by Vyse:
A good way to fight this problem would be to punish the companies who hire illegal workers in the first place. If there is no work, they will stop coming.

I agree with you about the necessity for going after the companies who hire migrant workers, but there seems to be this belief among some immigrants that people immigrating to a new country don't need to intigrate themselves into the culture by doing things like learning the native language, political & judicial systems, history. In my opinion "OPINION" since the logistics of deporting or arresting the several million people here make it almost impossible. why not register them & give them 9 mos. to a year to legally obtain citizenship. After the initial registration period of oh say 90 days cut off the ability to register for the program & begin arresting & deporting everyone they can get thier hands on. Bottom line If your going to immigrate anywhere do it the right way. It is your responsibility to learn the ways & language of what ever cultre your intigrating to.

P.S. Vyse, I'm not slammin on you, you're quote just gave me a good rant

Notice anythig particular 'bout our luck these past few days, any kind'a pattern'. You depend on luck you end up on the drift no fuel, no prospects, beggin for alliance make work getiin' towed off to the scrap out THAT AIN'T US NOT EVER

Very true. I live in northeastern PA, I'm a full time college student, and a part time cashier/manager at a supermarket. There are some people who shop there regularly who speak NO english at all. I agree that those people need to learn some english. They don't have to be 100% fluent, but know the basic language. I don't expect them to know big words our own President doesn't know.

The government also needs to make the legal immigration process faster. If you are just an everyday person who wants to move to America, it can take up to 10 years before you can take the citizenship tests.

VYSE

Monday, May 1, 2006 5:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Process that whole 12 million illegal and find out who are all the troublemakers and criminals and throw them out, and make the remaining ones citizens and consider the issue closed. We would have paid the price for our laziness.

Well said, R.

Chrisisall Unleashed

Yes this explains my feeling perfectly. We let them in this country. We let them work and build a life here. We can't take that away after the fact because we were lazy and didn't secure our borders.

RIVER6213

Monday, May 1, 2006 5:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Everyone just remember one small detail.

The colonists on the Mayflower were illegal immigrants too.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

This is true, but you also have to remember, those Mayflower, illegal aliens also brought along a whole bunch of firepower too, along with their lying tongues. The Natives that were already there didn’t know what kind of trouble showed up on their doorstep. The Mayflower illegal aliens also were deeply religious, but they considered the Native population of North America as savages.

A lot of tribes at 1st tried to help out those illegal aliens, but then they paid the price when those illegal aliens went forth to steal their land, and engage in genocidal activities against the Natives, with the help of slaves that they got from Africa, who the illegals also considered savages. They did all of this in the name of God of course.

More illegal aliens poured in. The Africans were beaten up on and forced to do a lot of work under the contempt of the illegal aliens. The Natives were pretty much forced into mass relocation camps, and more illegal aliens poured into the country, while the ruling classes in charge of the country wrote document after documents talking about the freedom of humanity; how all men should be free. They did this while owning slaves and considering the Native population savages.

Several wars later the ruling class decided to free the slaves, but then busied themselves with terrorizing them straight up into the 20 Century, and even to this day regard the black man as inferior, a waste of life not to be trusted, or honored, and not worthy of humanity, though, there are a lot of laws in place that says that the ruling illegal aliens must treat the dark-skinned ones with a measure of respect, there is an underlying, covert hostility. An unspoken thought that if there weren’t any such bill of rights or civil rights, there would be mass genocide, and/or mass deportations. Meanwhile, the Natives are still in their reservations.

Give me you’re your tired, your poor…..

Meanwhile, more aliens show up, some legally and some illegally. The Majority illegal aliens decided that having these new illegal aliens around are good for business….a new slave population that we can use and totally take advantage of, and not have to worry about paying for insurance, heath care, or any of the other fail safes that humans tend to need in a modern society….and we can pay them pennies! What a deal! But then came the day when the illegal alien’s numbers past the 11 million mark, and those aliens hit the street and started to demonstrate. The Majority illegal aliens collectively, momentarily stopped their back-biting, and observed this new political animal demonstrating on the streets in almost every major city in the United States.

Regardless if the original illegal aliens did come here on the Mayflower…Whoever has the guns, and the firepower, are the ones that are going to set policy. This is the nature of human beings as demonstrated time after time in the books of human history. Whoever has the weapons are going to be the ones who says what goes. Do it our way or die.

The European countries technology advanced quicker than everyone else on the planet because it fought itself all the time. The more wars they had (and they had a lot) the quicker their technology advanced. Then they decide to go sailing about the world and they found other races that do have wars, but their wars are on another level, therefore, technological advancements are slower. The Europeans take this as a sign that these people are savages, or weak, and they started to dominate them, because they had guns, cannons, and the ability to exert their wills on other cultures.

I had a point to make in here somewhere, but I’m angry now and it’s hard to type this crap out with one hand.

River

River struggles to find the hand of God in all of this

DEEPGIRL187

Monday, May 1, 2006 5:42 PM

You have a great point, but firepower or no, that doesn't make them right. The hundans that run this country have no right to pass judgement on illegal immigrants now when their own ancestors are guilty of the same thing. Especially considering the fact that their ancestors committed genocide on the original occupants of this country, and present day illegals are only trying to make a better life for themselves.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

IMPRESSION

Monday, May 1, 2006 6:33 PM

okay river6213...you seem to be a lil pent up on the whole situation and first of all...mayflower or no....those illegal aliens u keep referring to...your ancestors..so take some blame...secondly...spaniards landed america first...check ur history...thirdly...if u knew anything about religion and anything about the spaniards, the english, and anyone else coming over to america...a lot of the stuff they did, they used religion to make them look better but they barely did anything in the name of God, to the peasants of their mother land's, it looked noble and justifiable..much the same way bush thought WMD that didnt exist was enough reason to go over to Iraq...they were hiding behind one reason for another, exploitation of God will send them to the bad places of hell only reserved for those movie talkers...oh and by the way, the native americans fought with the french and owned slaves...and not every mayflower alien lived in the south...some white folk fought to actually free the africans because they honestly believed it was wrong....and the whole native american reservation thing...yeah once long ago it was a tragedy for them..but you know how quickly they jumped onto american technology and advancement...and the reservations now....casinos and gambling and stuff...seems to me like they have decided for themselves to move quite a bit a way from their own culture....and everyone in the western hemisphere outside of the native americans can be considered illegal aliens but i have to post this question...lets say origian starts in the middle east(not talking only Iraq because geography was different then) like it states in the Bible and other religious books...people spread out over time....North America was once completely empty until, wait, uh people crossed over from asia into northern canada and started populating the world, so yeah they may have found the land, but life makes it necessary to find new land, so both they and the Mayflower people were searching for land correct, so arent even the native americans either illegal aliens or was it just lifes theory of the strong survive and if so, you gotta be considering yourself for even being lucky enough to be here that your ancestors found it worthy enough to take the time and make a way of life for you, even though there were hardships along the way that i neither think were okay or think would have made this country what it is if they didnt happen....the past has happened...people need to get over themselves and if your going to point fingers...point fingers from every angle and understand from every angle.

MONKSDAD

Monday, May 1, 2006 6:45 PM

actually evidence points to the vikings landing here first

"And I think calling him that is an insult to the psychotic lowlife community."

DEEPGIRL187

Monday, May 1, 2006 6:52 PM

SASSALICIOUS made a point of this in their thread, but I had a few things to add.

People who are in opposition to illegal immigrants on this thread have had some interesting points, but consider this. How many people are willing to do the jobs that illegal immigrants do and for the same amount of money that they earn? Does anyone here want to earn two dollars an hour picking fruit? Cleaning other people's bathrooms? Taking care of their kids? If people that want to pick up the slack that would be left after all the illegal immigrants are gone, then by all means, keep up this 'throw them out with the bathwater' business. The truth of the matter is, illegal immigrants fill an important spot in the American economy that no one else is really willing to fill. Until that changes, no one has the right to say anything.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

PACKINHEAT

Monday, May 1, 2006 6:56 PM

I say we do what Mexico does to its Illegal Immigrants. Take their money, possessions, land (if any), and then throw them either A. across the border or B. in jail.

Ok I don’t really think we should do that, but that’s what good old Mexico does… Oh and in Mexico if you are born in another country and take the time to become a citizen in Mexico, BY LAW you can’t own land. Just some food for thought.

oh and DEEPGIRL187 they take plenty of jobs that pay well, that many LEGAL Americans would be willing to take.

SANDS

Monday, May 1, 2006 7:13 PM

They don’t mention that Code Pink has had a major part in the organization of today’s events.

AMITON

Monday, May 1, 2006 7:14 PM

I'm confused on a few things, and I will say up front that I'm one of the people that is rather upset about the support of illegal aliens in this country.

First, why is is such a bad thing to deny these individuals rights in the US? The fact of the matter is, for whatever reasons - good or bad, that a conscious decision was made to take residence in the US in violation of American law. Period.

Second, why is blanket forgiveness for this a "good" option? Again, these people are in the US in blatant violation of US law. There are huge numbers of people patiently waiting in line and paying thousands of dollars and waiting *years* while being forced to continue to live outside of the country because they are making the responsible choice of trying to immigrate into the US in accordance with US law. There isn't a *single* illegal immigrant in the US that doesn't know that the punishment for being caught in the country illegally is deportation. It doesn't matter how long you've been in country illegally, and it doesn't matter how hard you've worked or how much you've paid in taxes. The law has been broken, and it was broken with intent and knowledge of the penalty. There's no way around that. So somehow the "proper" course of action is to punish those who adhere to the law, and reward the people who flagrantly disregard it?

Third, where did this concept that early colonists were illegal immigrants come from? We'll discard the idea that empires and colonization was a standard practice at the time, and there was no formal claim to the land that came to be the New England colonies. There was no country to begin with. There was no law established that would be violated to make them illegal. Even further down that road, indiginous Native Americans didn't have a concept of land ownership. The tribes were nomadic, particularly the Shinicock, Mohawk, Sioux, and Mohican people of the east coast of North America. They welcomed the new neighbors. I will grant that the colonists deeply violated that trust and did a lot of awful things. Perhaps the whole statement was meant as a metaphor? Just the same, though, it didn't really apply the way that it seemed to be intended.

I don't blame the illegal immigrants for taking their chances in the US, and I do agree that the US is largely to blame for the situation that is at hand now. I also agree that it is important to take action against the companies that hire illegal immigrants, and that action needs to be severe enough to actively discourage the practice. I do not, however, agree that somehow everybody should just look away and let the transgression pass. The illegal immigrants have to be held accountable for their actions. To turn a blind eye and just sweep everything under the carpet sends a very bad message, and there is no justifiable reason for it at this stage.

I'm sorry, and I don't want to be mean, but I haven't seen the enlightenment being espeoused by the supporters of the illegal immigrants. It could be that I'm just dense, but most of what I've seen hasn't really addressed the issue, it just tells the US to roll over and be taken advantage of.

Amiton.

VYSE

Monday, May 1, 2006 7:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by impression:
okay river6213...you seem to be a lil pent up on the whole situation and first of all...mayflower or no....those illegal aliens u keep referring to...your ancestors..so take some blame...secondly...spaniards landed america first...check ur history...thirdly...if u knew anything about religion and anything about the spaniards, the english, and anyone else coming over to america...a lot of the stuff they did, they used religion to make them look better but they barely did anything in the name of God, to the peasants of their mother land's, it looked noble and justifiable..much the same way bush thought WMD that didnt exist was enough reason to go over to Iraq...they were hiding behind one reason for another, exploitation of God will send them to the bad places of hell only reserved for those movie talkers...oh and by the way, the native americans fought with the french and owned slaves...and not every mayflower alien lived in the south...some white folk fought to actually free the africans because they honestly believed it was wrong....and the whole native american reservation thing...yeah once long ago it was a tragedy for them..but you know how quickly they jumped onto american technology and advancement...and the reservations now....casinos and gambling and stuff...seems to me like they have decided for themselves to move quite a bit a way from their own culture....and everyone in the western hemisphere outside of the native americans can be considered illegal aliens but i have to post this question...lets say origian starts in the middle east(not talking only Iraq because geography was different then) like it states in the Bible and other religious books...people spread out over time....North America was once completely empty until, wait, uh people crossed over from asia into northern canada and started populating the world, so yeah they may have found the land, but life makes it necessary to find new land, so both they and the Mayflower people were searching for land correct, so arent even the native americans either illegal aliens or was it just lifes theory of the strong survive and if so, you gotta be considering yourself for even being lucky enough to be here that your ancestors found it worthy enough to take the time and make a way of life for you, even though there were hardships along the way that i neither think were okay or think would have made this country what it is if they didnt happen....the past has happened...people need to get over themselves and if your going to point fingers...point fingers from every angle and understand from every angle.

Do you know the actual reason why white people in the north were opposed to slavery in the south during the civil war era? They thought it made white people lazy, that it was making white people weaker. It had nothing to do with them thinking slavery is wrong.

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Monday, May 1, 2006 7:19 PM

not saying I am "for" or "against", but tell me what "good paying jobs" illegal immigrants take? I live in a Gulf Coasst community and there are a lot of Mexicans here, don't know if they are legal or not, but will say they do sh*t jobs for barely minimum wage and they work like dogs. The people that hire them are taking advantage.

AMITON

Monday, May 1, 2006 7:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
How many people are willing to do the jobs that illegal immigrants do and for the same amount of money that they earn? Does anyone here want to earn two dollars an hour picking fruit? Cleaning other people's bathrooms? Taking care of their kids? If people that want to pick up the slack that would be left after all the illegal immigrants are gone, then by all means, keep up this 'throw them out with the bathwater' business. The truth of the matter is, illegal immigrants fill an important spot in the American economy that no one else is really willing to fill. Until that changes, no one has the right to say anything.

This is part of the problem, though, deepgirl187. Nobody in the US should only be making two dollars per hour doing anything unless they are in a commission paying position or self-employed. The employers that are paying those wages need to be punished. Yes, there are consequences for such actions, one of which being an increased price per unit for agricultural goods (and other affected industries), and that in turn will have a ripple effect throughout the economy. That doesn't change the facts - those companies (or co-ops, or whatever level of employment) should never have been doing business that way to begin with. If they couldn't operate that way and stay in business, then they shouldn't be doing that business. If it cuts their bottomline, then I don't have much sympathy, especially considering the rediculous profit margins of bigger corporations. Capitalism is a tough environment, and it's one of the reasons I don't want to be a businessman.

The same argument applies to the other jobs listed as well...those are unskilled labor markets. There are people, American people, who will fill those positions if the pay and benefits are laid in accordance with US law. The problem again is with the employers who are trying to trim the corners and make an extra dollar by exploiting the fact that they can put someone in a position to take whatever is offered and has no recourse. Unemployment may be at 5% or whatever, but I'm sure many of them would take *legal* pay to do those jobs, and I'm almost positive that the majority of this nation's homeless would (mind you, I'm speaking of the truly homeless, not the people bankrolling money by panhandling and pulling government welfare even though they're able to do better).

Amiton.

MALSHEART

Monday, May 1, 2006 7:26 PM

Why are we having this discussion on this site? I understand many of you are passionate about this topic, but this kind of talk is downright exclusive (as opposed to inclusive). I am tempted not to come back, which would be a gorram shame, us UK Browncoats need to be kept on side. I could spend a long time talking to you about migration, but I'd need to look you in the eye...remember Mal an co are "illegal" and most definitely migrant workers...

there was no end...

SHINY

Monday, May 1, 2006 7:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sassalicious:

P.S. There's a thread about this in RWED

And that's where this thread belongs as well. :)

---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!

MALSHEART

Monday, May 1, 2006 7:30 PM

just to add to that...I don't mean we shouldn't discuss issues - just not ones that are likely to stir up that which makes us hate. Let us focus our energies on Firefly/Serenity. We can deal with other issues later...No disrespect intended for your views - I agree with FUTURE MRS FILLION'S last post on this thread...

there was no end...

VYSE

Monday, May 1, 2006 7:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by malsheart:
Why are we having this discussion on this site? I understand many of you are passionate about this topic, but this kind of talk is downright exclusive (as opposed to inclusive). I am tempted not to come back, which would be a gorram shame, us UK Browncoats need to be kept on side. I could spend a long time talking to you about migration, but I'd need to look you in the eye...remember Mal an co are "illegal" and most definitely migrant workers...

there was no end...

This is the real world part of the forums. If you don't wanna talk about it go to the other sections.

DEEPGIRL187

Monday, May 1, 2006 7:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
This is part of the problem, though, deepgirl187. Nobody in the US should only be making two dollars per hour doing anything unless they are in a commission paying position or self-employed. The employers that are paying those wages need to be punished. Yes, there are consequences for such actions, one of which being an increased price per unit for agricultural goods (and other affected industries), and that in turn will have a ripple effect throughout the economy. That doesn't change the facts - those companies (or co-ops, or whatever level of employment) should never have been doing business that way to begin with. If they couldn't operate that way and stay in business, then they shouldn't be doing that business. If it cuts their bottomline, then I don't have much sympathy, especially considering the rediculous profit margins of bigger corporations. Capitalism is a tough environment, and it's one of the reasons I don't want to be a businessman.

The same argument applies to the other jobs listed as well...those are unskilled labor markets. There are people, American people, who will fill those positions if the pay and benefits are laid in accordance with US law. The problem again is with the employers who are trying to trim the corners and make an extra dollar by exploiting the fact that they can put someone in a position to take whatever is offered and has no recourse. Unemployment may be at 5% or whatever, but I'm sure many of them would take *legal* pay to do those jobs, and I'm almost positive that the majority of this nation's homeless would (mind you, I'm speaking of the truly homeless, not the people bankrolling money by panhandling and pulling government welfare even though they're able to do better).

Amiton.

I do agree with you in the fact that corporations should be punished. I just think that our government should take their share of the responsibility rather than placing all the blame on immigrants.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

VYSE

Monday, May 1, 2006 7:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
This is part of the problem, though, deepgirl187. Nobody in the US should only be making two dollars per hour doing anything unless they are in a commission paying position or self-employed. The employers that are paying those wages need to be punished. Yes, there are consequences for such actions, one of which being an increased price per unit for agricultural goods (and other affected industries), and that in turn will have a ripple effect throughout the economy. That doesn't change the facts - those companies (or co-ops, or whatever level of employment) should never have been doing business that way to begin with. If they couldn't operate that way and stay in business, then they shouldn't be doing that business. If it cuts their bottomline, then I don't have much sympathy, especially considering the rediculous profit margins of bigger corporations. Capitalism is a tough environment, and it's one of the reasons I don't want to be a businessman.

The same argument applies to the other jobs listed as well...those are unskilled labor markets. There are people, American people, who will fill those positions if the pay and benefits are laid in accordance with US law. The problem again is with the employers who are trying to trim the corners and make an extra dollar by exploiting the fact that they can put someone in a position to take whatever is offered and has no recourse. Unemployment may be at 5% or whatever, but I'm sure many of them would take *legal* pay to do those jobs, and I'm almost positive that the majority of this nation's homeless would (mind you, I'm speaking of the truly homeless, not the people bankrolling money by panhandling and pulling government welfare even though they're able to do better).

Amiton.

I do agree with you in the fact that corporations should be punished. I just think that our government should take their share of the responsibility rather than placing all the blame on immigrants.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

That is all this Government does though, blame any other reason for problems in the country except themselves, and that goes for both parties. The truth is that politicians and their corporate pals depend on these cheap workers. They are greedy, and want to keep as much money to themselves as possible.

LYSANDER

Monday, May 1, 2006 7:42 PM

It is nice to see that everyone has an opinion about this issue. Some of you have some really good points and some are just talking to have something to say. I know, that is my opinion and here is the rest.
I live in a border city and my house and work are not even ten minutes away from the border. I know a lot about living with illegal immigrants. It is always easy to throw blame around about not being able to stop the flow of illegals into America. There are hundreds of miles of area along the Mexican-American borders. There is not enough man power to cover all of the space that needs to be protected. Remember, that is not the only border that needs tobe protected.
The illegals that are already here should be sent back. They are using tax payers money and not paying back. And no, most do not pay taxes back. We are forced to accept there kids into our education system and then required to change the way we teach in order to make sure that they can understand. Why they are mainstreamed when they can't speak or read the language is beyond me. If they want to be an American, they should go through the right channels to be a legalized American.
There are so many more things that I can give my opinion on about this issue but what good does it do. No one can do anything until the government decides what it is going to do. I have my teaching job because I worked for it. This way I do not have to take jobs that I do not like. If everybody else went about the rules, they would not have to work low paying, hard working jobs.
Just my opinion.

Simon: What if he(Mal) tells you to kill me.
Zoe: (without hesitation) I kill you.

SISTERBETTYX

Monday, May 1, 2006 7:46 PM

RIVER6213

Monday, May 1, 2006 7:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by impression:
okay river6213...you seem to be a lil pent up on the whole situation and first of all...mayflower or no....those illegal aliens u keep referring to...your ancestors..so take some blame...secondly...spaniards landed america first...check ur history...thirdly...if u knew anything about religion and anything about the spaniards, the english, and anyone else coming over to america...a lot of the stuff they did, they used religion to make them look better but they barely did anything in the name of God, to the peasants of their mother land's, it looked noble and justifiable..much the same way bush thought WMD that didnt exist was enough reason to go over to Iraq...they were hiding behind one reason for another, exploitation of God will send them to the bad places of hell only reserved for those movie talkers...oh and by the way, the native americans fought with the french and owned slaves...and not every mayflower alien lived in the south...some white folk fought to actually free the africans because they honestly believed it was wrong....and the whole native american reservation thing...yeah once long ago it was a tragedy for them..but you know how quickly they jumped onto american technology and advancement...and the reservations now....casinos and gambling and stuff...seems to me like they have decided for themselves to move quite a bit a way from their own culture....and everyone in the western hemisphere outside of the native americans can be considered illegal aliens but i have to post this question...lets say origian starts in the middle east(not talking only Iraq because geography was different then) like it states in the Bible and other religious books...people spread out over time....North America was once completely empty until, wait, uh people crossed over from asia into northern canada and started populating the world, so yeah they may have found the land, but life makes it necessary to find new land, so both they and the Mayflower people were searching for land correct, so arent even the native americans either illegal aliens or was it just lifes theory of the strong survive and if so, you gotta be considering yourself for even being lucky enough to be here that your ancestors found it worthy enough to take the time and make a way of life for you, even though there were hardships along the way that i neither think were okay or think would have made this country what it is if they didnt happen....the past has happened...people need to get over themselves and if your going to point fingers...point fingers from every angle and understand from every angle.

Oh but you are wrong. I feel totally responsible for everything that is wrong with the United States today. I inherited the result of all the bad decisions making of our forefathers; we all have, and the immigration problem in this current day is just as much my fault as it is any citizen who lives here.

Also, I know my history. I was being general to get a certain point across, and you are correct, history already happened, but I don’t understand the “get over yourself” remark. Humans have a long memory when something bad happens to them, or their group. The United States will never forget Pearl Harbor and 9/11. Japan will never forget being nuked twice back in WW2. The Jews will never forget the holocaust. China will never forget, nor forgive the rape of Nan king; Black American’s will never forget that they were slaves and considered property at one time. The Natives in the North America region will never forget the lies, the genocides, and the total barbarous, back-stabbing nature of the white man. No nation that was touched in a negative fashion by Germany from WW2 will ever forget it, and all of these nations will make certain that once every year, they will remind us all of the atrocities that one group had met out to another. It’s our nature. Its human nature, so I’m uncertain about this “get over yourself” remark.

I judge a big man how he treats a small man. I judge a b

SASSALICIOUS

Monday, May 1, 2006 9:41 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060501/ap_on_re_us/immigration_boycott_da
y

Like I said, I don't really care about this issue very much, but I had to say my favorite part of the article was this quote: "You should send all of the 13 million aliens home, then you take all of the welfare recipients who are taking a free check and make them do those jobs," said Jack Culberson, a retired Army colonel who attended the Pensacola rally. "It's as simple as that."

Majority of welfare recipients aren't getting a "free check" unless they are severely disabled and/or mentally ill. States require that one work some minimum amount and usually kick one off after a few years. Hell, even the lowest rungs on the military infrastructure receive some welfare benefits because they certainly don't make enough, especially if they have a family.

You also make the point that most people would do those jobs for a legal amount. That "legal amount" in just about every state is below a living wage. In WI, it's $5.15/hr and a living wage in Madison is around $10/hr, I believe. It's very near impossible to survive on that amount, especially with children EVEN if you magage to get aid (again, see book referenced in previous post). You also said that the homeless would probably be willing to work those jobs. A number of homeless people actually have jobs. Not all, you're right, but many do. They just don't make enough to keep a proper roof over their head.

But I do agree with you that the businesses have a fair part of the blame for generating a market for illegal immigrants.

RIVER6213

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 12:23 AM

OMG!
Did I miss something in the news? Is something supposed to be going on today? Is today special?
I decided to try my hand at driving my Jaguar to downtown Seattle to see too a few things at the office. BTW, its good to be able to drive again!

Well, here I sit, in traffic...stopped dead by what is starting to look like more than 50,000 people demonstrating. There are a hundreds of very pissed off looking cops milling about, and the communters are all mad as hell! I'm writing from my wireless laptop. Thank goodness I brought some coffee and my cellphone with me!

The people stuck in traffic are out of their cars and are in an ugly mood. Its rush hour here right now and I guess the demonstrators picked this time to make their point. Well, I guess we can't ignore them now. I guess I won't be going anywhere, and I can't turn around, so I guess I'm stuck here.

I guess this issue regarding illegal immigration isnt going away anytime soon. I hope our leaders find a solution to this mess that we can all feel okay about.

P.S. Are you aware that gas prices jumped up!!! I had to pay $3.00 a gallon!!!! OMG!!! This is what I get for not paying attention to the news!!!!

A Stunted River

REAVERMAN

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 12:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
P.S. Are you aware that gas prices jumped up!!! I had to pay $3.00 a gallon!!!! OMG!!! This is what I get for not paying attention to the news!!!!

A Stunted River

It's $3.39 per gallon for regular down here in San Diego. Last week, it jumped by something like 17 cents in three hours (no I'm not kidding. the local news had ongoing hourly coverage of the price changes).

Also down here, we were severely shorthanded at work. Businesses, schools, and other places are all at least a little shorthanded. At the local high school today, it averaged 19 students per classroom absent.

The goal of this protest is to show us all what the economy would be like if immigrants didn't show up for work. As far as I'm concerned, this is definitely one of the stupidest things the pro-immigration activists have ever done. Not only has it been innefective, but it has sent the wrong message. Of all the millions they are trying to convince, something like 15% will probably get it and agree, 25%won't give a

, and 60% will just be really pissed off. Most people see that they are intentionally trying to hurt the economy. As far as I know, that isn't how you ingratiate yourself with folks (but, you know, that's just me).

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

RIVER6213

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 12:41 AM

$3.39 a gallon? What is driving up the gas prices?

I guess they feel that if they don't attempt to rock our boats, we won't listen....they may have a point there, but I really don't particularly enjoy sitting here in traffic, so that alone is pissing me off even though I understand their cause. But we have to look at the insanity part of all of this...Illegal immigrants are "demanding" their rights! They must pick another way of approaching this issue without pissing everyone off.

River

RIGHTEOUS9

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 12:49 AM

Why do we consistently take these stories as they are framed by the media? All of a sudden illegal immigration is the new scourge because the media says so, and its "those damned illegals who are ignoring our laws and have no respect for our system."

Quit taking the bait. If you actually cared about this issue, you wouldn't be looking for the little guys to pin it on. The problem is big companies are benefitting from this...big companies are benefitting from people coming across the border, which is why the government they fund has no interest in doing anything real about it. Do you think the companies care if you start convicting illegals on felonies? They could give a rats ass. There will be more where that came from.

Did illegalizing drugs stop that traffic? Nope. In fact, the drug trade is way more profitable than it was before it was a crime, and more people are addicted to drugs.

You just don't stop something which there is a demand for. If there's a demand, people will fill it. So, if you want to stop illegal immigration, quit being angry at the other half of the victims, and start being angry at our government for not holding these companies accountable for dangling this carrot on our side of the border.

You want to improve our standard of living? Give those illegals who are already here some rights, so that they are not a preferable choice to American citizens when it comes to hiring.

I don't understand why we constantly keep running around in the same circles on this. We all agree. Illegal immigration is a problem. Do you want to fix the problem or do you want to find a scapegoat for it?

RIVER6213

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 12:53 AM

I actually think that people are shocked by how many of these illegals there really are here.

Who are you talking too?

River

CITIZEN

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 12:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
$3.39 a gallon? What is driving up the gas prices?

Over here in the UK prices recently topped £1 a LITRE, which is over £3.78 0r ~$6.83 per US Gallon. When you're paying that much talk to me, cause your fuel prices sound pretty damn cheap to me

.

Poor Oil companies though, they are having a rough old time of it:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4672716.stm

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

RIVER6213

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 1:10 AM

I found Gas prices this on the net based on the US dollar:

UK TEESIDE $5.64
HONG KONG HONG KONG $5.62
UK MILFORD HAVEN $5.56
UK READING $5.56
UK NORWICH $5.54
GERMANY FRANKFURT $5.29
DENMARK COPENHAGEN $5.08
NORWAY STAVANGER $5.07
NORWAY OSLO $4.93
ITALY ROME $4.86
TURKEY ISTANBUL $4.85
PORTUGAL LISBON $4.80
KOREA SEOUL $4.71
SWITZERLAND GENEVA $4.56
KOREA KOJE/OKPO $4.53
AUSTRIA VIENNA $4.50
CROATIA ZAGREB $4.32
JAPAN TOKYO $3.84
AUSTRALIA SYDNEY $2.63
CAMBODIA PHNOM PENH $2.57
TAIWAN TAIPEI $2.47
GEORGIA TBILISI $2.31
LAOS VIENTIANE $1.66
THAILAND BANGKOK $1.60
CHINA TIANJIN $1.54
CHINA SHANGHAI $1.48
RUSSIA MOSCOW $1.45
KAZAKHSTAN ALMATY $1.36
KAZAKHSTAN ATYRAU $1.35
TAJIKISTAN DUSHANBE $1.32
AZERBAIJAN BAKU $1.15
VENEZUELA CARACAS $0.14

I guess Venezuela is the place to be for gas prices.

Why the hit and run Civilian?

Anyway. The demonstrators are heading for the federal building on 4th Ave. Its a sea of humanity, and I'll say it again...its rush hour here right now, and people here are pissed. I hope no one decides to start any trouble. I also hear that the numbers are 20 to 25,000.

This is a traffic nightmare!

River

REAVERMAN

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 1:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
$3.39 a gallon? What is driving up the gas prices?

Over here in the UK prices recently topped £1 a LITRE, which is over £3.78 0r ~$6.83 per US Gallon. When you're paying that much talk to me, cause your fuel prices sound pretty damn cheap to me .

Poor Oil companies though, they are having a rough old time of it:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4672716.stm

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

************************************
Europe has always had higher gas prices because of the inaccesability of oil in the region. That's why most Europeans drive (by American standards) incredibly small and efficient cars. In america, however, folks don't think long term. That's why we have SUVs and muscle cars. For Americans, $3.39 per gallon is pretty damn expensive considering that many have to refuel twice a week or more. In the end, this could be a positive thing though, spurring the developement of cheaper hybrids and/or alternative sources of fuel.

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

VYSE

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 2:56 AM

I'm willing to bet though that while European gas prices are higher than the U.S.'s, their real wages are higher than the U.S.'s also. You have top take that into account when translating funds.

SASSALICIOUS

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 3:10 AM

It's May Day, which is also International Worker's Day.

Today is the "Day Without an Immigrant". Immigrants (both legal and illegal) and their supporters were supposed to skip work/class today.

Results have been interesting.

SASSALICIOUS

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 3:14 AM

A lot of things in Europe parallel the U.S. prices when it gets broken down, so the wage argument doesn't necessarily hold true. It's just a really sucky exchange rate at the moment. For instance if something is a dollar here, it's often a euro in a euro using country or a pound in the UK. The exception of course being the large cities (London, Paris, Dublin, etc) where everything is a billion times more expensive.

SOUPCATCHER

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 3:53 AM

I wanted to do a quick post on this since I just got back from the San Jose march. By far the majority of signs that I saw referenced HR4437 (eta: Except for the one guy who mistakenly wrote HR3437 on his shirt. I'm sure that was a bad bill, too. But my girlfriend didn't appreciate how funny I found that). That seemed to be the big motivator for many of the people to take to the streets: that their parents would become felons (there were a lot of families in the crowd, many of the children with signs saying, "My parents are not felons," many many strollers - I was joking to my girlfriend that you could do an exhibit on contemporary American stroller design with just the people around you) or that those who provide aid to undocumented immigrants would be penalized.

I'm always interested in the "why now?" question when something like this happens. To me, HR4437 was an attempt to rejuvenate a voter base during an election year (similar to the defense of marriage amendment things from 2004) that woke up a lot of people to the reality that half of their family would immediately become guilty of a felony. Less an example of people marching for their rights (as it has been advertised and as has been referenced in this thread) and more of a case of people marching to protest an increasing criminalization of their family members. At least that's the way it seemed to me by looking around as I was marching.

And now I have to go get some aloe type stuff from the store since the part of me I inherited from my mother forgot that lots of sun + me = pain. I'll post more later on my thoughts on this topic and why I felt it was important to march (the last immigrant - no doubt illegal - in our family came here back in the twenties, so it's not like I have an immediate dog in the hunt).

RIVER6213

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 3:55 AM

Finally! I am able to drive again! I am now in my main office after not having been here in a month, and there are balloons and a ton of get well cards. There are also workers still here after hours! I guess my workers like the robot after all; I have failed at being the complete bitch. I must put more effort into ramping up my efforts at being completly evil to these people.

Anyway. This whole illegal immigration issue will play out as it should. I doubt that after all of this fuss, the government will just kick them out. I suspect that we will do the right thing and take responsibility. If not, then this country is no place that I wish to be.

If I told all of you what I did for a living, you would never believe it, but thank you for giving me the opportunity to voice and vent my point of views, and thank you for treating me like one of yourselves.

River

KHYRON

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 3:58 AM

Illegal immigration facts and figures: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/guides/456900/456958/html/nn1pag
e1.stm

Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

RIVER6213

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 4:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Illegal immigration facts and figures: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/guides/456900/456958/html/nn1pag
e1.stm

Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

I'm not particularly fond of humanity as stated in past posts by myself. But people do, must come first. There are no minions here. Everyone has value.

River

RIVER6213

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 4:42 AM

Wow! I got the last word! I must be either on top of my game, or in delusionalland like PirateNews.

PIRATENEWS

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 5:22 AM

Why do you THINK Jr Bush's PR firm and the Mexican Fox's PR firm picked May 1 for their illegal riots by criminal alien hoodlums? May 1 is Communist May Day, Satanic Beltane, birthday of the Bavarian Illuminati, and LAW DAY...

Now if we can convince the illegals to take the next 364 days off, the problem is solved. Of course, 30% of illegals don't work anyway, because they're on welfare.

Quote:
Professor Predicts 'Hispanic Homeland'

By The Associated Press

www.aztlan.net

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. — A University of New Mexico Chicano Studies professor predicts a new, sovereign Hispanic nation within the century, taking in the Southwest and several northern states of Mexico.

Charles Truxillo suggests the “Republica del Norte,” the Republic of the North, is “an inevitability.”

He envisions it encompassing all of California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and southern Colorado, plus the northern tier of Mexican states: Baja California, Sonora, Chihuahua, Coahuila, Nuevo León and Tamaulipas.

Quote:

Terrorist traitors hoist Mexican flag at a California school
www.whittierdailynews.com/news/ci_3657604

Along both sides of the U.S.-Mexico border “there is a growing fusion, a reviving of connections,” Truxillo said. “Southwest Chicanos and Norteño Mexicanos are becoming one people again.”

Truxillo, 47, has said the new country should be brought into being “by any means necessary,” but recently said it was unlikely to be formed by civil war. Instead, its creation will be accomplished by the electoral pressure of the future majority Hispanic population in the region, he said.

Other UNM professors were skeptical

Felipe Gonzáles, director of UNM's Southwest Hispanic Research Institute, said there's a “certain homeland undercurrent” among New Mexico Hispanics who believe land was stolen and promises broken. But, he said, a new nation would need much more widespread support.

“Educated elites are going to have to pick up on this idea and run with it and use it as a point of confrontation if it is to succeed,” Gonzáles said.

Quote:
"We have an aging white America. They are dying. We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him."
-Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas, Arlington, founder of La Raza Unida (The Race United)

Truxillo contends states have the right to secede under the Articles of Confederation of 1777, in which states retained “sovereignty, freedom and independence.” He contends the Articles were not superseded in that regard by the U.S. Constitution and that although the Civil War settled the question militarily, it was never resolved by courts.

History Professor Daniel Feller disagreed

“The Constitution does supersede the Articles of Confederation,” Feller said. “It takes no notice of the articles and is not presented as bearing any relation to them. The Constitution does not declare, recognize or in any way acknowledge the right to secede.”

And, he noted, the full title was “Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union.”

The U.S. Supreme Court said in 1869 the union was indestructible, political science Professor Joseph Stewart said.

He also said he was “somewhat skeptical in the sense of minority politics” about a possible Republic of the North. He said Americans of Mexican descent have moved all over the United States and that “I don't see that Hispanic population becoming more distinct but in fact becoming less distinct.”

Juan José Peña, Hispanic activist and vice chairman of the Hispanic Roundtable, said there's not enough political consciousness among Mexican Americans to form a separate nation.

“Right now, there's no movement capable of undertaking it,” he said.

Truxillo, who teaches at UNM's Chicano Studies Program on a yearly contract, believes it's his job to help develop a “cadre of intellectuals” to think about how it can become a reality.

RIVER6213

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 5:42 AM

So much for getting in the last word.

Piratenews, why do you put so much information in your posts? What is with all the pictures? No point in asking I suppose. I do like the girl shooting the machinegun though.

You are just another lonely heart in a world that doesnt hear you. Join the club

River

PIRATENEWS

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 5:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:

If I told all of you what I did for a living, you would never believe it, but thank you for giving me the opportunity to voice and vent my point of views, and thank you for treating me like one of yourselves.

River

Heart transplant doc? CIA assassin? Ballerina?

I only let the people I own use my title.
-Magistrate Higgins, Jaynestown

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

RIVER6213

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 5:48 AM

?????
I can't tell you that. Telling you that would make you start putting up all kinds of crazy pictures

I want Bruce back. I miss Bruce

River

PIRATENEWS

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 6:04 AM

Stripper. Excuse me, exotic dancer.

I only let the people I own use my title.
-Magistrate Higgins, Jaynestown

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

RIVER6213

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 6:07 AM

A stripper or an exotic dancer? How insulting are you? Oh please!
You are Xerogravity, because that is something he would say.

Anyway, do you have any opinion regarding the immigration issue without 90 pages of yapping and pictures of teens being run down by tanks?

I can tell that this will get ugly if I stick around.

River

SOUPCATCHER

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 6:30 AM

I'll just add a few more thoughts on the topic. My basic take is that if you can make it into this country and want to work hard and make a better life for you and your family then you are an American. Whether or not you are a legal American is beside the point, in my mind.

I am an American by default. I didn't make a decision to make this country my home. I was born here. But I like to think that, if I had been born somewhere else, I would choose to move to this country and live. Because, to engage in a little patriotism, I happen to think that this is the best country on earth (I also happen to think that we can do a lot better, but that's a completely different discussion). So I tend to have a lot of respect for people who are Americans by design, those who left where they were born to come to this country.

There is a lot of complaining going on about lawbreaking. So what. We break laws all the time. I break the law every time I go over the speed limit. Does that make me illegal? It's a conscious decision I make because I think the speed limit is too low or I'm in a hurry and getting to where I'm going is more important than the fine I'll pay if I get caught. Or whatever rationalization I can come up with. It's a judgement for me. As long as I'm not a danger to anyone else I have no problem disregarding this particular law. And, if I had been born in some other country and wanted to live in the US because I thought I could improve the chances for my children (non-existant though they may be) I'd like to think that I would do whatever it took, short of physically injuring someone, to make that happen. I think it says a lot about the strength of our country that so many people want to be Americans.

But, some argue, they don't want to become Americans. They just want to send money to other countries, steal from the services that citizens have paid taxes for, send their children to public school for free, and then leave the country when they've milked it for all it's worth. Why should we put up with that behavior? Well, I might pay more attention to some of these criticisms if they hadn't been bandied about by white supremacist groups for decades. White power groups have been using the threat of a brown America as a recruiting device for quite a while (Before the Mexicans it was the Japanese, and the Chinese, and the Catholics, etc. etc. etc.). And some of the rhetoric (reconquista - seperatist projection, anyone?, they're all criminals, they're all on welfare, they don't speak English, etc) has slipped into the mainstream discourse. So pardon me if I'm a bit skeptical on how large a problem any of these claims are. I rarely hear people back them up with actual numbers. I have seen studies, however, that show the amount of money undocumented immigrants contribute to the economy.

The Pew Hispanic Center is a decent resource for studies of this nature. Check there to see if there are some actual numbers to back up the assertions. Until then, it's people talking out of their ass, as far as I'm concerned.

To give an example. I've heard people complain that undocumented workers send their children to public school for free, thereby mooching off of the taxes paid by citizens. Property taxes pay for schools. It's probably a good bet that an undocumented worker is renting (if they own property, than they're paying the taxes already). If the landlord isn't adding the property taxes into the monthly rent than they are a stupid businessperson. So how are they not paying for public schools?

I guess I interpret a lot of the complaining about illegal immigration as a sign of a lack of faith in the strength of American culture and society. My country is strong enough to absorb immigrants as long as they come here to work hard. We have in the past and we'll continue to in the future. It's not right for the second and third and fourth, ad infinitum, generations to try and shut out a new wave of firsts. I tend to think that this country changes people. Once they've lived here for a

RIGHTEOUS9

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 6:53 AM

Good post Soupcatcher, thanks

OLDENGLANDDRY

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 7:24 AM

Carefull PN, there may be someone out there with more training on heavy weapons than you.
Hard to believe I know, but possible.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 8:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Vyse:
I'm willing to bet though that while European gas prices are higher than the U.S.'s, their real wages are higher than the U.S.'s also. You have top take that into account when translating funds.

Wages between the US and UK are comparable, with goods costing much more in the UK.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

DEEPGIRL187

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 1:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
Why do you THINK Jr Bush's PR firm and the Mexican Fox's PR firm picked May 1 for their illegal riots by criminal alien hoodlums? May 1 is Communist May Day, Satanic Beltane, birthday of the Bavarian Illuminati, and LAW DAY...

Satanic Beltane? What the hell are you on? Beltane was a pagan holiday that celebrated the return of spring. And criminal alien hoodlums? So we're going to comepletely ignore the high number of criminals our own country has? Ever heard of Gacy? Dahmer? Capone? All American creations.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

AMITON

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 2:00 PM

Soupcatcher,

Might I inquire on just one point in your opinion? The number being bandied about for illegal immigrants in the US is 12 million, give or take. I think you can grant me that I'm not posting information to back that up, and I'll grant that it's just the number I keep hearing in the press. It can very easily be wrong, and I don't know any better.

You don't like the illustration about those 12 million people breaking the law, because you think in your opinion it's a fair law to break. What do you say about the people that take the time and effort to enter the US properly? It's a difficult, expensive, and very long process that those people endure. We're talking thousands of dollars (which in almost any case I've ever seen has been an extreme financial burden) and a year or longer that they can't even *visit* the US (once they've been accepted to processing, which could be several years on top of that), lest their application be rejected and the process be started over again from scratch.

Are these people just stupid fools for making every effort to adhere to the laws and regulations established by the US? Perhaps everyone that wants to "be American" should just jump a flight to a location near a US border and enter illegally, since that's the more effective way to do things?

Amiton.

VYSE

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 4:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Vyse:
I'm willing to bet though that while European gas prices are higher than the U.S.'s, their real wages are higher than the U.S.'s also. You have top take that into account when translating funds.

Wages between the US and UK are comparable, with goods costing much more in the UK.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

Is that a number like the GNP, or a minimum wage. The minimum wage in the U.S. when you convert it to real wages is level to waht it was in 1968. The price of living has gone up, but not the wages.

KHYRON

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 4:41 PM

Amiton, I agree with all of the posts you've posted so far in this thread. Just wanted to let you know. Haven't got time to enter the discussion myself, but I would pretty much just be saying what you've already said anyway.

Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 5:07 PM

It was the mean average wage for the US for 2002 compared to the UK for 2004 (which should be higher because of inflation ).

The figures are £20,000 ($36 394) for the UK 2004.

The figures I found (from a website I looked at this morning, which I can no-longer find, bloody Google ) for the US $34,334 for 2002.

In $US the minimum wage in the UK is ~$2 an hour more.

Cost of living:
A house (single family, I'm guessing this means what we call a detached house) in the US: $264,540
In the UK: £285,697 (~$519,882)

Consumer petrol prices, as I stated are about double what they are in the US.

I don't have exact figures but I know food and clothing is cheaper in the US, as are most luxury goods (Cars, electrical etc).

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

HKCAVALIER

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 5:48 PM

Heya, SoupCatcher,

Glad to hear from you here! "Why now?" absolutely is the question. And of course, this is about "mobilizing the base." Or was. This was s'posed to be the latest brilliant marketing scheme for the Republican Party. It's a 2-fer: "strengthening the borders" sounds real good in this post 9-11 era, and pissing on the Mexicans--particularly the undeserving, illegal (how dare they???) Mexicans--well, nobody cares about those people!

'Cept the Mexicans apparently! And boy howdy there's a lot o' them ain't there? I had no idea! Yesterday's demonstrations were just that: demonstrations. Immigrants demonstrated that they exist and have power, just by being here. They have rights, just by being here. "Inalienable," I think they're called.

These are the invisible people the Republicans figgered couldn't speak english and so would not speak up. But they were wrong. And instead of having a slam-dunk non-event like "The Defence of Marriage Act" they're getting nothing but headaches over this. The future ethnic majority of the U.S.A. will never forget how the Republicans threatened to make their parents felons over night.

Folks, it's deeply hypocritical to exploit these immigrants' illegal status, offering them deplorably low wages under tacet threat of deportation and worse. As has been said, the process of legal immigration is arduous and expensive--these people wouldn't have a chance. Just because being illegal in this country is better than being a natural born citizen of their native countries; just because conditions in their native countries are far worse than anything they'll get from us, doesn't give us the right to sink to just above their level.

(Man, where have I heard this argument before? Oh, I remember, "Well, at least we're better than the Terrorists!")

Cheap foreign labor has been the name of the game in these parts since the days of slavery. And now we decide to put 'em all in jail? Who are we kidding? Do you think for a second that if this kind of law was passed, we would enforce it in any but the most perfunctory way? Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the new War On: The War on Illegality.

To extend SoupCatcher's analogy, what if speeding were suddenly raised to the level of a felony? Mandatory jail time for speeders, licences suspended indefinitely... "Well, it is illegal to speed, so what's the problem?" The problem is that it's an abuse of governmental power. A perversion of why we the people suffer our government to exist in the first place.

Did ya all see V for Vendetta? "People shouldn't be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people."

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

SOUPCATCHER

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 6:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
Soupcatcher,

Might I inquire on just one point in your opinion? The number being bandied about for illegal immigrants in the US is 12 million, give or take. I think you can grant me that I'm not posting information to back that up, and I'll grant that it's just the number I keep hearing in the press. It can very easily be wrong, and I don't know any better.

You don't like the illustration about those 12 million people breaking the law, because you think in your opinion it's a fair law to break. What do you say about the people that take the time and effort to enter the US properly? It's a difficult, expensive, and very long process that those people endure. We're talking thousands of dollars (which in almost any case I've ever seen has been an extreme financial burden) and a year or longer that they can't even *visit* the US (once they've been accepted to processing, which could be several years on top of that), lest their application be rejected and the process be started over again from scratch.

Are these people just stupid fools for making every effort to adhere to the laws and regulations established by the US? Perhaps everyone that wants to "be American" should just jump a flight to a location near a US border and enter illegally, since that's the more effective way to do things?

Amiton.

Amiton,

What I would say to people who become Americans through the system is, "Congratulations. I'm glad that you had that option available. I'm proud to call you a fellow American." Like I said before, I tend to have a lot of respect for people who are Americans by design.

The key point here is that they had that option available to them. I'm not going to second guess the decisions of anyone who doesn't have that option but still wants to come to this country and work hard. If they want to risk their life on a crap shoot for the "pursuit of happiness" than I'm not going to tell them they shouldn't. Becoming an American is non-trivial no matter how you go about it (I think it's a mistake to assume that it's "easier" to be an undocumented immigrant). One complaint I hear often is, "But. But. But. They're cheating." How is leaving behind everything you've ever known to struggle at below subsistence wages for years in the hopes that your children's lives will be better than yours cheating?

It's the responsibility of the government to enforce an immigration policy. I'm not saying we shouldn't have one. What I am saying is that we do a piss poor job of enforcing the inequitable one we have. I think immigration reform needs to have a two prong approach: first make the policy more equitable and philosophically consistent with the guiding principles from our country's inception taking into account that we, as a country, need to be responsible for our actions elsewhere in this hemisphere and across the globe (eta: for example, taking into account that the US and Mexico have a unique history/relationship); second, do a good job of enforcing that more equitable policy.

If you look at this country's immigration policy throughout our history, however, it says more about our prejudices and who we think is acceptable as an American than anything else. The quota system. The haphazard way in which we allow some groups a streamlined citizenship because of who our enemies are at that particular point in time. The importation of laborers and then the writing of legislation to prohibit them from citizenship (probably the most aggregious example of this are the laws written to stop immigration from China during the nineteenth century). We value the labor of these undocumented workers. But we're not supposed to value the individual? That's crap.

SOUPCATCHER

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 6:25 PM

Hey, HKCavalier! Yeah, long time no post on my part.

Liked what you had to say .

edited to add: It's not like undocumented immigration hasn't been a viable topic for discussion before now. It's almost like someone woke up and said, "Well, we know how to win elections. But we can't govern worth shit. People are finally starting to wake up to that fact. What can we do to keep them distracted long enough to win another election? LOOK! ILLEGALS!"

ONETOOMANY

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 6:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

To extend SoupCatcher's analogy, what if speeding were suddenly raised to the level of a felony? Mandatory jail time for speeders, licences suspended indefinitely... "Well, it is illegal to speed, so what's the problem?" The problem is that it's an abuse of governmental power. A perversion of why we the people suffer our government to exist in the first place.

Did ya all see V for Vendetta? "People shouldn't be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people."

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

This is what the real problem is about. whether or not the citizens of the U.S. should allow our current structure of power to remain in place. Throughout history any major change in a political structure has been a result of the populace standing up and saying that we don't agree & we aren't going take it anymore. The biggest problem we face is that our government uses specific & strategic tactics to prevent organization of groups that might not totally agree with what our government does. Our real focus needs to be on changing our system through another revolution. Whether it be peaceful or not it needs to happen.
I will say one thing on immigration. If you are immigrating to a new country "ANY COUNTRY" legally or illegally you need to accept the personal responsibility of intigrating into the social structure of that country regardles of your cultural differences. MY QUOTE "One cannot expect to hide in the open if they don't blend in".

Notice anythig particular 'bout our luck these past few days, any kind'a pattern'. You depend on luck you end up on the drift no fuel, no prospects, beggin for alliance make work getiin' towed off to the scrap out THAT AIN'T US NOT EVER

ONETOOMANY

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 6:38 PM

Calling on all blue blazer regulars, browncoats, & open revolutionaries to stand up & take action

Notice anythig particular 'bout our luck these past few days, any kind'a pattern'. You depend on luck you end up on the drift no fuel, no prospects, beggin for alliance make work getiin' towed off to the scrap out THAT AIN'T US NOT EVER

HERA7

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 6:39 PM

The irony of the illegal immigrant is the Mexican people and government treat immigrants far worse than any Mexican immigrants are treated in the US. These are people coming across Mexico's southern border from Central and South America. Yet the Mexican government practically encourages their poor to cross their northern border into the USA.

I am not against _legal_ immigration, but I am against the illegal type. Using history as an rule is a poor example in the immigration issue. We have the law of this country now, not the laws of years ago. 100 years ago and before, the US had practically an unlimited immigration policy, the laws have changed since then.

My ancestors worked hard to make what this country is today, why can't the people immigrating stay in their countries and do the same? Sure it may be difficult, but they have to overcome their current cultures to improve themselves and their homes.

I am for a guest worker program and a legal immigration policy which allows a path to citizenship and assimilation into the US culture.

The USA is cursed with a good educational program for our children. As people get better educated, they are less willing to do the dirty or menial tasks. So we do need the immigrant labor to perform these roles.

We do have people born in the US who don't take advantage of the opportunities here but instead are drains on our resources. There are jobs out there but they are adverse to working at all, let alone, hard.

Amnesty is not the answer, this sends the message of if you can stay here long enough, you get a free pass. This is an insult to those who immigrated legally and to most citzens born here. We need to open up to ways for these people from not only Mexico but other countries to work in the US, but in a legal, regulated form of immigration and guest worker programs.

AMITON

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 6:41 PM

Quote:

Folks, it's deeply hypocritical to exploit these immigrants' illegal status, offering them deplorably low wages under tacet threat of deportation and worse. As has been said, the process of legal immigration is arduous and expensive--these people wouldn't have a chance. Just because being illegal in this country is better than being a natural born citizen of their native countries; just because conditions in their native countries are far worse than anything they'll get from us, doesn't give us the right to sink to just above their level.

(Man, where have I heard this argument before? Oh, I remember, "Well, at least we're better than the Terrorists!")

Cheap foreign labor has been the name of the game in these parts since the days of slavery. And now we decide to put 'em all in jail? Who are we kidding? Do you think for a second that if this kind of law was passed, we would enforce it in any but the most perfunctory way? Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the new War On: The War on Illegality.

To extend SoupCatcher's analogy, what if speeding were suddenly raised to the level of a felony? Mandatory jail time for speeders, licences suspended indefinitely... "Well, it is illegal to speed, so what's the problem?" The problem is that it's an abuse of governmental power. A perversion of why we the people suffer our government to exist in the first place.

I agree and I disagree, HKCavalier. Yes, it is *way* wrong to exploit illegal immigrants and their status in the corporate US. That is tantamount to slavery to me, too.

I very deeply feel that some serious action needs to be taken against employers that hire illegal aliens, even whether they knew that the worker was illegal or not. The onus is on the employer to be responsible for their employees. Sadly, knowing the political climate and effect of big business in the US, it's not going to happen. I think we all know that.

*Hopefully* we agree that something has to happen to prevent the massive influx of illegal immigration. Since that action *won't* be taken against the companies, as sad as that may be and as more appropriate that it may be, the action has to be taken to discourage the act itself.

I am pretty sure that felony imprisonment not only isn't the answer, but is an unworkable solution. The US doesn't have the funding to properly take care of the prison system as it stands now. Throwing every captured illegal immigrant in the clink is only going to exacerbate an already bad situation.

I would, however, liken the metaphor more to misdemeanor petty theft in Beverly Hills than to speeding. This isn't a victimless crime causing a slightly higher risk of endangerment. It is an act that does affect entire regions, although it is one that is easy to be sympathetic to since *right now* the effect is mostly under the radar. Make no mistake, though, this isn't going in a good direction for the United States as a whole. People are violently angry about this issue on both sides.

Would felony deportation be as ignitable a stance to you as felony imprisonment? I understand that people have gotten comfortable in the US with their status, and in many cases are otherwise law-abiding and contibuting members of their society. Many even have children that have lived in the US their entire lives and are now teenagers that have never known anything else.

For them, I am sorry. The situation is unfortunate, but it is a situation entirely built upon the decision to move to the US under false and illegal conditions. If they're caught now, why should they be exempt from the process that is already in place? Just because they avoided the law for ten or more years and kept their noses clean? Perhaps maybe just because they crossed the border and tried to work the system by having an anchor baby, but just didn't get put into the situation that confronted that for a decade?

If the process that is already in place, requiring an illegal immigrant to be deported even after ten or fifteen years, even with a baby that was born i

HKCAVALIER

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 7:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
What should be done to actively discourage the idea that illegally migrating to the US is a great, low risk way to get ahead?

Amiton.

Heya, Amiton. Thanks for your thoughts. I don't have the time to give you the reply you deserve, but I just hadda make this one point real clear: illegally migrating to the U.S. IS NOT a "great, low risk way to get ahead!" Illegals are at the mercy of law enforcement's very intentional negligence. Which puts them on a legal par with prostitutes. Have you heard of the term "second class citizen?" It is, as has been noted, just a notch above outright slavery. Great and low risk? Yeah, maybe for Walmart!

Hey, and did you know that a lot of these illegal aliens are college educated professionals in their own countries, but unable to legally practice in our country, these doctors and professors are forced to wash dishes so their families can eat? Only the most sociopathic are illegally coming up here thinking, "Whoohoo! I'm on the gravy train now!"

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

AMITON

Tuesday, May 2, 2006 8:49 PM

Quote:

I don't have the time to give you the reply you deserve, but I just hadda make this one point real clear: illegally migrating to the U.S. IS NOT a "great, low risk way to get ahead!" Illegals are at the mercy of law enforcement's very intentional negligence. Which puts them on a legal par with prostitutes. Have you heard of the term "second class citizen?" It is, as has been noted, just a notch above outright slavery. Great and low risk? Yeah, maybe for Walmart!

Hey, and did you know that a lot of these illegal aliens are college educated professionals in their own countries, but unable to legally practice in our country, these doctors and professors are forced to wash dishes so their families can eat? Only the most sociopathic are illegally coming up here thinking, "Whoohoo! I'm on the gravy train now!"

Fair enough, HKCavalier. Perhaps I gave a poor representation of my opinion of the *individuals* that have entered the US illegally as opposed to the single representation of the category as a whole. I have a tendency to preach from that soapbox without adequately giving representation to the individual when I get on this topic. You have my apologies.

Yes, you are absolutely correct. Unlawful entry into the US is no small feat, and certainly worthy of recognition. I can respect their courage to leave their established status quo and undertake a task that is so very dangerous. It's certainly not as easy for these individuals to successfully do what they've done as it is made to seem in general. That's true even when you factor in the pamphlet printing, the maps to holes in fences, and the placing of water and food at common crossing points on the border.

And while I may not agree that *most* of these immigrants have completed their higher education, it would be irresponsible of me to claim that there aren't significant numbers of individuals that have left their education and the relative safety of their jobs behind for a chance at a better future for themselves and their family. They most definitely do exist, in large quantities, and in many cases their international education credentials and qualifications are ignored inside US borders.

In almost all cases, I whole-heartedly agree that many immigrants, even legal citizens, are treated as second class, as lessers, or even as petty criminals simply by association and met with bigotry and animosity, even in this day and age.

I do think that at then end of things, you are going to fall on the side of giving credit to them for enduring these hardships and wanting it to count toward giving them citizenship (I presume, and I don't mean to say that in a negative way), while I will fall somewhere else, personally.

To me, all of these things are indicators of a much larger problem, and by allowing the process to continue we're enabling the exploitation. We are *not* going to stop big business from capitalizing on people that are vulnerable. We are not, and cannot in an effective manner, make the government beat the snot out of big business until they feel that the risk of doing so outweighs the reward. The government doesn't have that kind of resource. The only real solution I can see is to take away the benefit of being here; take the motivation away at the source.

There's not a whole lot of ways for the government to even pull that off, and all of them I can imagine involve the US Government being a real big jerk. I don't like it, but we're in this situation. Did we do it to ourselves? Yes. Absolutely. Now that we've come here, though, here we are.

I've also seen people asking "Why now?" in this thread. Well, I think we all know (including the people asking the question) "why now." That doesn't detract at all from the point that this has been a problem for a very long time, nor does it take away the fact that we are exactly where we are and something really needs to be done.

Amiton.