US Border Patrol gives Minutemen locations to Mexican Gov't. !!
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Monday, May 15, 2006 13:40
VIEWED: 14254
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U.S. tipping Mexico to Minuteman patrols
By Sara A. Carter, Staff Writer
Beyond Borders - Special Report on Immigration
While Minuteman civilian patrols are keeping an eye out for illegal border crossers, the U.S. Border Patrol is keeping an eye out for Minutemen -- and telling the Mexican government where they are.
According to three documents on the Mexican Secretary of Foreign Relations Web site, the U.S. Border Patrol is to notify the Mexican government as to the location of Minutemen and other civilian border patrol groups when they participate in apprehending illegal immigrants -- and if and when violence is used against border crossers.
A U.S. Customs and Border Protection spokesman confirmed the notification process, describing it as a standard procedure meant to reassure the Mexican government that migrants' rights are being observed.
"It's not a secret where the Minuteman volunteers are going to be," Mario Martinez said Monday.
"This ... simply makes two basic statements -- that we will not allow any lawlessness of any type, and that if an alien is encountered by a Minuteman or arrested by the Minuteman, then we will allow that government to interview the person."
Minuteman members were not so sanguine about the arrangement, however, saying that reporting their location to Mexican officials nullifies their effectiveness along the border and could endanger their lives.
"Now we know why it seemed like Mexican officials knew where we were all the time," said Chris Simcox, founder of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps. "It's unbelievable that our own government agency is sending intelligence to another country. They are sending intelligence to a nation where corruption runs rampant, and that could be getting into the hands of criminal cartels.
"They just basically endangered the lives of American people."
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I wish this was from Piratenews or some such, but this is an actual REAL news story folks. The Border Patrol is shirking its duty and selling out her own citizens to a foreign Gov't.
Unfuckingbelieveable. 
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Wow.
When I read the title, I was going to say something like, "They probably don't want the Mexican government to be nervous about the accumulation of armed folks along the border."
But that's not it at all.
This is wicked weird and seems wrong to me. Is the Mexican government seriously demanding status updates on how illegal aliens are apprehended as they illegally cross the border?
If it is a concern for Mexico, one would think they'd... You know... Prevent the illegal border crossings.
And we are complying with this request?
It boggles the mind.
Can you say "We need to know how and when to get our mules across?"
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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It does boggle the mind and I hope to hell that this doesn't get swept under the rug like Patrick Kennedy's DUI.
Our fathers and grandfathers didn't defeat the Germans just so George W Bush could surrender to the Mexicans!!
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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I hope we can all agree that, if there is violence committed against a citizen of Mexico, we should report who committed the violence to the Mexican consulate. So, leaving that part aside, that leaves us with the question of whether or not we should report to the Mexican consulate the involvement of non-Border Patrol people in the apprehension of Mexican citizens.
Link to original article (from the 9 May 2006 issue of the Daily Bulletin in Ontario, California): http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_3799653
Links to the documents referenced in the article:
(11 April 2005) http://www.sre.gob.mx/eventos/minuteman/reporte1.htm
(4 May 2005) http://www.sre.gob.mx/eventos/minuteman/reporte2.htm
(2 August 2005) http://www.sre.gob.mx/eventos/minuteman/reporte3.htm
From the article, it sounds like there is an agreement in place that the Border Patrol will notify the Mexican consulate if a non-Border Patrol group is involved in the apprehension. But later in the article Border Patrol agents say they have been asked to report the location of all groups but not put the name of the group in the reports. So there's some ambiguity in my mind about exactly what information is being reported. The three reports that are referenced are status reports from mid 2005 on the activities in various states. Most of this information could be gleaned from news reports released by the groups themselves. About the only one that looks like it required a transfer of information from US to Mexican officials is the group at the end of the Daily Bulletin article. So, given that these documents have been around for more than half a year and can't be considered current, I have to wonder why the buzz now. It looks to me like these groups are ramping up for another round of trying-to-get-as-much-positive-media-attention-as-possible going in to the summer months.
Just some random notes:
Now that Chris Simcox has hired himself a DC based public relations firm and changed his wardrobe you have to figure that every statement out of his mouth is about as sincere and accurate as those made by DC politicians. He's come a long way from when he was claiming that Chinese troops were wearing Mexican uniforms and using American equipment along the border. (edited to add: At least back then you didn't doubt his sincerity, just his accuracy)
It looks like Jim Gilchrist, Minuteman founder and candidate for public office, had a "don't ask don't tell" policy for supremacists who worked on his campaign. http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=610
What these groups say on camera and off camera are, shockingly, two different things. A Phoenix TV station sent some reporters undercover and found that there may a bit more racism involved than organizers would like you to believe. http://www.kpho.com/Global/story.asp?S=4830062 One of my favorite passages, "Members of Minuteman of One have a controversial M-O. They carry assault rifles when they're out on patrol, they don't hesitate to follow migrants or smugglers and they've been known to 'confiscate' food, water and the luggage they come across." Hey! To the victor go the spoils, baby. I can see the recruiting slogan now, "All the loot you can confiscate."
As always, the best place for learning about the ties between the Minutemen and white supremacist groups and the attempt to cloak their bigotry in terms more acceptable to mainstream America is at David Neiwert's place: http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/
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The Plan of San Diego was a treaty between the Germans and Mexico to invade USA during World War 1. Prescott Bush was arrested 3 times and paid a $750,000 forfeiture for arming Nazi Germany during World War 2. Jr Bush is 3rd cousin to the German Queen of England, who merged her Canadaian British Commonwealth with USA and Mexico via NAFTA SHAFTA slave contract. Bushes are by definition traitors to USA.
Forget the lies of our oppressive Kaballistic Allied Governments.
-Huckster, The Message
FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Our fathers and grandfathers didn't defeat the Germans just so George W Bush could surrender to the Mexicans!!
AURaptor, I'm surprised. You seem to be channeling PN here. I agree with you that this is a serious problem, but this isn't a war. Migrants aren't coming here to ruin our country or bring down the government or somesuch. They are just people who, like most people, don't think long term. What they see are greener pastures than what they have at home. Most don't (or refuse to) see that what they are doing will eventually bring this country to its knees economically.
Basically, I agree with your facts, but take issue with your tone. We must never forget that if the shoe was on the other foot, it would be millions of illegal American immigrants fleeing across the border.
You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.
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Yeah, reaverman, I think that is what ticks me off the most about groups like the Minutemen. They're taking the easy way out by race-based scapegoating of those at the bottom. There are ways to talk about the illegal immigration problem without resorting to an appeal to nativism. Here's one: http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/03/immigration-conundrum.html
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
It does boggle the mind and I hope to hell that this doesn't get swept under the rug like Patrick Kennedy's DUI.
Well, if by swept under the rug you mean make the front page of a major newspaper, be on every news channel, and make every internet news site I frequent, like Kennedy was, I don't think it'll get that much coverage.
I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion Kennedy's wreck was "swept under the rug." It was everywhere; it got more coverage than the current 'Hookergate' is getting (bribery and political corruption involving prostitution is getting a pass? How is that even possible?).
Besides, Kennedy came forward, said he had a problem and needs help, and is getting treatment. That makes him a bad guy? The reason Rush gets demonized is that he won't do the same, after years of calling drug users the scum of the earth.
But wait, I forget - you come at it from the perspective that you can get drunk, shoot someone in the face, cover it up for 18 hours, then lie about it and still be the darling of the right. It's party over country with some of you.
Sorry for the threadjack, but I just don't get the extreme right's hypocrisy. Clinton was demonized for smoking pot in college; Bush gets a free pass for his coke use 'because it was in the past.' Rush is considered 'under attack' for his drug use (and comitting fraud), after he spent years calling for harsher penalties; Kennedy gets in an accident, admits he has a problem and seeks help - but he's the devil.
Help me out here.
------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.
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I have flipped, flopped, and flipped on this issue and I can't honestly say that I won't flop again.
FLIP
On the one hand, I have sympathy for the immigrants. The one nation that we didn't invade or occupy (Costa Rica) is the one nation that's doing OK. So not only did we do a great job screwing Central and South America economically, we also made it impossible for their citizens to fix things internally.
FLOP
On the other hand, allowing illegals in for the benefit of business pretty much screws over our middle class as well. It's no different than Microsoft bringing in bunch of cheap Indian software engineers under B1/B2 visas. The presence of a large amount of cheap labor in ANY market will depress wages.
FLIP
But if illegals had some legal standing, they could oragnize into unions and be better able represent themselves.
FLOP
Except when it comes to issues like Federal and state minimum wages. Without political representation, the people most directly affected (minimum wage earners) will be unable to change policy.
FLIP
But if the minimum wage was raised, would it simply drive more people into the underground (nanny, day laborer) economy?
FLOP
On the other hand, many illegals are paying into a social security system that they will never draw from.
AND ALSO
What I find is that many immigrants are willing to work hard but are poorly trained. It tends to drive experts out of the business because nobody wants to pay for a job well done. So we have half-assed HVAC installations and half-assed auto repairs (I once got a car back with a loose tie rod). Even with the best of intentions it takes a generation or two to bring people up to a modern industiualized economy.
The other thing I find worrisome about the imported culture is the acceptance of day to day corruption. It's not the Bush & Co aren't corrupt, it's just that you don't have to pay off your neigborhood cop every day just to not get rousted. A friend's son went Mexico over spring break with a group of friends, and two of them were shaken down for money- one by the police and one by a club owner. $70 seems to be the going payoff.
I really don't know the answer altho I acknowledge it's a complicated issue.
---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Yeah, reaverman, I think that is what ticks me off the most about groups like the Minutemen. They're taking the easy way out by race-based scapegoating of those at the bottom.
And I agree with you here. I think they are just racists who are getting away with it by calling themselves 'patriots.' It's nothing more than vigilantism anyway, and I think it's an amazing stroke of luck that nothing bad has happened yet with them.
One of these days they are going to run into drug runners, or have a mix-up with US border patrol agents, or (God forbid) Mexican agents, and someone's going to get killed. They want to play Rambo, and I worry that there's going to be consequences.
------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.
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Well, I have mixed feelings about the Minutemen.
When I first heard about them, I was certain that they would get themselves or someone else killed in short order. I was positive that they were racists looking for scapegoats and live targets.
However, the underwhelming reports of infractions by the Minutemen organization leads me to believe that they are either A) Largely Behaving themselves or B) Part of a conspiracy to conceal the truth about their Mexican border assassinations.
Well, there's just no evidence for B.
I've heard some laments that they put on camoflage and tour the border with Assault Rifles. Well, while it is legal to own and carry assault rifles, the tax on it is very expensive and the background check is a pain in the behind (For no good reason, as it takes very little time to check for Felonies in our electronic age), so I'll assume they are mostly carrying the civillian version of assault rifles. And so what? I can carry an AR-15 in my current state of residence and I can carry a pistol on my hip if I want. (God, I love Arizona!) Of course, I don't do these things because it tends to make people nervous. Point is, it's not illegal or even immoral to walk around armed.
So, what's the beef with the Minutemen? No assasinations of border crossers that I know of. No laws broken that I'm aware of. You'd think the news media would want to make such things public, as it'd be a juicy story.
Well, what about them being racist? I'm sure some of them are. I'm sure some of them aren't. I honestly think a good portion of them think that unlimited illegal immigration is 1) Criminal (which it is) and 2) Bad for the Economy (which it is.)
Okay, so what about the stupidity of having civilians patrol the borders? What about that? Isn't that stupid? Shouldn't civillians leave the patrolling to the professionals?
And I'd agree with you there... Except... There's this effective criminal deterrent called the Neighborhood Watch that is exactly the same thing. Concerned citizens who realize that the professionals can't or won't be everywhere, and who take a personal responsibility for ensuring the safety of their neighbors from criminal activity.
The main difference between the Neighborhood Watch and the Minutemen is that the Neighborhood Watch is typically encouraged and supported by Law Enforcement, while the Minutemen are condemned by Law Enforcement.
Which leads me to the next question... Why doesn't Customs set up a friendly relationship with a citizen assisted border watch agency so that they can get the volounteer manpower they need to watch the border adequately?
Sounds like that would be a Win-Win.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by reaverman:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Our fathers and grandfathers didn't defeat the Germans just so George W Bush could surrender to the Mexicans!!
AURaptor, I'm surprised. You seem to be channeling PN here. I agree with you that this is a serious problem, but this isn't a war. Migrants aren't coming here to ruin our country or bring down the government or somesuch. They are just people who, like most people, don't think long term. What they see are greener pastures than what they have at home. Most don't (or refuse to) see that what they are doing will eventually bring this country to its knees economically.
Basically, I agree with your facts, but take issue with your tone. We must never forget that if the shoe was on the other foot, it would be millions of illegal American immigrants fleeing across the border.
You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.
They're not MIGRANT workers. They're ILLEGALS. Sugar coat it all you want, but folks who come here w/ out any permission from the Gov't are here ILLEGALLY. Doesn't make them 'bad', 'evil' or 'inferior', but they are still illegal. And me pointing out that simple fact doesn't make me a 'racist' or a 'bigot'. I WANT more people to become Americans. America is a great place, and I want them to love it as much as I do, if not more. But how the hell can they respect this country when they ignored so many of it's basic laws?
You pass into Mexico w/ out the proper notification or proceedure, you'll end up in a Mexican jail. Do it twice, and you'll be there a VERY long time.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Okay, so what about the stupidity of having civilians patrol the borders? What about that? Isn't that stupid? Shouldn't civillians leave the patrolling to the professionals?
Anthony - Not stupid at all, but point of fact, it's an act of love. Love for this country. It's well beyond any discussion that the Border Patrol not only isn't up to the job of guarding the borders ( 15+ MILLION Illegals here, if not more ) but is actively trying to keep dedicated, concerned US citizens from defending thids country.
Doesn't seem very professional to me.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Yeah, reaverman, I think that is what ticks me off the most about groups like the Minutemen. They're taking the easy way out by race-based scapegoating of those at the bottom.
And I agree with you here. I think they are just racists who are getting away with it by calling themselves 'patriots.' It's nothing more than vigilantism anyway, and I think it's an amazing stroke of luck that nothing bad has happened yet with them.
One of these days they are going to run into drug runners, or have a mix-up with US border patrol agents, or (God forbid) Mexican agents, and someone's going to get killed. They want to play Rambo, and I worry that there's going to be consequences.
------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.
Gee, what do you call the Mexican Americans, citizens who are also part of this effort ? Are 'they' racist too? There's nothing RACIST about this in the least. You cross the border illegally, you SHOULD be caught. All the Minutemen are doing is watching the border and calling the authorities. It's about the sovereignty of this country and upholding the laws, and nothing about 'race'. The only time there's been any interaction between the illegals and Minutemen is when they've seen folks dying of thirst, then they offer them water and wait for the ambulance. Gee, how terrible, huh?
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not stupid at all, but point of fact, it's an act of love. Love for this country.
Lot's of things have been excused with this sort of statement. Few of them good.
Quote:
It's well beyond any discussion that the Border Patrol not only isn't up to the job of guarding the borders ( 15+ MILLION Illegals here, if not more ) but is actively trying to keep dedicated, concerned US citizens from defending thids country.
Doesn't seem very professional to me.
Is this one of the things George Bush has done well or one of the things that's someone else’s fault or one of the things "that isn't really happening la la la I'm not listening"?
Quote:
There's nothing RACIST about this in the least. You cross the border illegally, you SHOULD be caught. All the Minutemen are doing is watching the border and calling the authorities.
If all they're doing is watching the border why are they armed? Why are they afraid for their safety? Its vigilantism, a bunch of Cowboys who think it's still the 1860's and they're "gonna get them varmints, yeehah! I'm a callin' you out bawy!".
They think they're John Wayne, well people used to call 'em Marion.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
If all they're doing is watching the border why are they armed? Why are they afraid for their safety? Its vigilantism, a bunch of Cowboys who think it's still the 1860's and they're "gonna get them varmints, yeehah! I'm a callin' you out bawy!".
They think they're John Wayne, well people used to call 'em Marion.
Just a note on the minutemen, as part of this discussion I took the liberty of visiting the Minutman Project's website. Under the heading Standard Operating Procedure, one of the first things it said was,
"3. Minutemen Observe, Report,Record, and Direct Border Patrol or other appropriate emergency or law enforcement agencies to suspected Illegal Aliens or Illegal Activities.
4. Minutemen do not verbally contact, physically gesture to or have any form of communications with suspected Illegal Aliens."
And later
"If challenged you will physically remove yourself from the situation"
Do your home work next time
P.S.
Here's the link
http://www.minutemanhq.com/hq/sop.php
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
There's nothing RACIST about this in the least. You cross the border illegally, you SHOULD be caught. All the Minutemen are doing is watching the border and calling the authorities. It's about the sovereignty of this country and upholding the laws, and nothing about 'race'.
Okay.
But the patrol also has drawn major interest on White supremacist Web sites and in their chat rooms. An Aryan Nation site links directly to the Minuteman Project home page with the words: "A call for action on part of ALL ARYAN SOLDIERS."
Whoops! How did that quote from an article get through your obvious Minuteman shield? Must have slipped across the border from reality-ville.
Quote:
The only time there's been any interaction between the illegals and Minutemen is when they've seen folks dying of thirst, then they offer them water and wait for the ambulance. Gee, how terrible, huh?
According to regular law enforcement officials and actual, trained border agents - yes, yes it is.
The Border Patrol and other federal officials have asked civilians not to interfere with undocumented immigrants or law enforcement, saying they endanger themselves and others.
"When people act as vigilantes, they put themselves at risk, they put other law-abiding citizens at risk, and they put law enforcement at risk," he said. "It's not a nuanced issue here. We want citizens to assist law enforcement by calling in when they see a crime, by giving us information if they see suspicious activity. But no one in law enforcement, for example, is asking anyone to carry weapons into a bank and sit on a stool and wait for a bank robbery.
"That's the distinction here. These people are putting themselves and others in harm's way."
http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special03/articles/0305extremists05.
html
The founder, Jim Gilchrist, already has admitted in several interviews that there have been armed encounters that ended in violent exchanges, including one that involved acid. And the fact that they are out there "giving medical aid," as you claim they did, violates their supposed primary rule about having no direct contact with any illegals, as was just posted by someone else.
{EDITED TO ADD: This was the post I referred to, by StillFlyin:
Quote:END EDIT}
4. Minutemen do not verbally contact, physically gesture to or have any form of communications with suspected Illegal Aliens."
So which is it? They are nonviolent patrols, or they are armed people interacting with illegals? Can't have it both ways.
------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.
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"The founder, Jim Gilchrist, already has admitted in several interviews that there have been armed encounters that ended in violent exchanges, including one that involved acid. And the fact that they are out there "giving medical aid," as you claim they did, violates their supposed primary rule about having no direct contact with any illegals, as was just posted by someone else. So which is it? They are nonviolent patrols, or they are armed people interacting with illegals? Can't have it both ways."
Sure you can, 7%. It's called judgement. You know, someone's f*cking dying, and even though the Prime Directive says to let them die, you just can't in good conscience sit there and let it happen. So you beam in an away team with blankets and food and hope you survive the Federation court-martial.
Didn't you learn anything from Star Trek?
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Anthony, I know you were being partly facetious (and I did learn a lot from Trek - like how to mack on hot green women if any should ever show up at my door - assuming my wife gives the ok). But my bigger point is that even when offering aid, untrained professionals (just because some are retired military doesn't mean they know what they are doing in regards to dealing with the system or people) with guns could do more harm than good.
What if it's a gang faking a sick member to ambush them? The Minutemen have had several threats from Mexican cartels to do just that. What if they have a Rambo-type who sees a threat from someone (who may only be protecting a relative from babbling strangers who showed up with guns) and starts firing, killing an immigrant (and no, crossing the border should not be a death sentence, and you're morally bankrupt if you think it should be). What happens if confusion erupts and a minuteman is shot by Mexican agents, or Border Patrol agents by mistake? Lawsuit? For gettting yourself in the way of trained professionals doing their job?
So much could go wrong. Even if their motives were pure - which the case may be that it is for some if not most- there is too much room for disaster. That's why vigilantism is frowned upon.
------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.
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Quote:
Originally posted by StillFlyin:
Just a note on the minutemen, as part of this discussion I took the liberty of visiting the Minutman Project's website. Under the heading Standard Operating Procedure, one of the first things it said was,
"3. Minutemen Observe, Report,Record, and Direct Border Patrol or other appropriate emergency or law enforcement agencies to suspected Illegal Aliens or Illegal Activities.
4. Minutemen do not verbally contact, physically gesture to or have any form of communications with suspected Illegal Aliens."
And later
"If challenged you will physically remove yourself from the situation"
Do your home work next time
P.S.
Here's the link
http://www.minutemanhq.com/hq/sop.php
Do my homework, that's funny.
You seem to be under the mistaken belief I didn't know any of this. You also seem to be under the mistaken belief that some words on a website means anything to a bunch of tooled up locals.
So they need firearms to observe from a distance because...
Are they those new mobile phones with built in gun attachment so they can ring the authorities perhaps? With your obvious greater grasp of the situation I'm sure you have all the answers.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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You can call the Minuteman organization a bunch of racists with an agenda, hidden or exposed, but when people volunteer their time, watch the border, arrest and escort anyone crossing illegally to the proper authorities I say thank you. Tax payer paid employees are failing and how many are in the country now? 11 million? I have left a response to the blog "illegal immigration", I find it hard to challenge their program when they have been threatend with machetes, rocks and assault rifles. The respondant a few back said she is glad to live in a state where you can carry a pistol on your hip and an assault rifle if you wish, well, the latest attack was near the california border by a california based watch group. California does not allow its citizens to carry guns and has a ban on all types of assault rifles. Please feel safe in that regards, citizens of California cannot. One respondant mentions the confiscation of personal items.. every on field news crew that video tapes the arrests, detainment and transport of captured illegals does not show any personal items being returned either. In fact, a cable news program aired a flight from the U.S. to a South American country with illegals captured. I did not see one leave the bus to the plane with a bag, and did not see one leave the plane with anything except hand cuffs and shackles. What is your point? I could care less of a groups founding principals or beliefs, there is no proof of abuse, if there is a problem, deploy the National Guard and Reserve instead of to Iraq, if the cost of transport is a problem, National Guard of that state or other states are called up and assist in the transport in military convoys. There are answers, but allowing the threat to continue: marches, demonstrations and increased border violence.
Merchantmarine1
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"So they need firearms to observe from a distance because...
Are they those new mobile phones with built in gun attachment so they can ring the authorities perhaps? With your obvious greater grasp of the situation I'm sure you have all the answers."
Haha. Good one. For the record, I wouldn't go into the desert without a weapon. There's a lot of good reasons to carry weapons in the wilderness whether or not you're planning to be in the proximity of criminals. (Which, you know, illegal immigrants ARE.)
I used to carry a pistol with me almost everywhere I went in South Florida. It was kept in a comically named 'Thunder Wear' holster rig under my jeans. You know, because sh*t happens, and I'll add 'have a gun' to my list of options when it does. In Florida, you can't carry a pistol on your hip, but in Arizona you can.
7% pointed out that there have been threats of violence against the Minutemen. He has pointed out that there are situations where violence might erupt. That seems like additional incentive, not disincentive, to keep firearms on your person.
Now, if you could explain to me how the Minutemen differ from the Neighborhood Watch, I'd be appreciative. (I'm guessing it'll have something to do with the Minutemen legally carrying firearms.)
Or perhaps you find the Neighborhood Watch a lamentable institution as well?
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Is this one of the things George Bush has done well or one of the things that's someone else’s fault or one of the things "that isn't really happening la la la I'm not listening"?
Bush isn't listening, and as President, this is HIS screw up - ROYALLY.
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If all they're doing is watching the border why are they armed? Why are they afraid for their safety? Its vigilantism, a bunch of Cowboys who think it's still the 1860's and they're "gonna get them varmints, yeehah! I'm a callin' you out bawy!".
While you might want to hold to the picturesque image of family of Mexican migrant farmers, scurrying across the border with 3 generations of close knit, hard working, repressed folk looking for work, only to be oppressed by BIG BUSINESS, then being faced down by 'Bubba' and 'Tex' carrying their high powered rifles and sawed off shot guns....that's hardly the case. Never mind the fact that well armed and very determined drug runners are bringing contra band(drugs) into the country, and would rather shoot first and never ask questions than run the risk of dealing w/ the cops. I don't know about all the border states, but in Arizona, I believe carrying guns is perfectly legal. And then there are Mexican as well as other Central/ South American gang members crossing the border as well. Them folk ain't here to pick avacados or pluck chickens.
When you call it 'vigilantism, you have never shown more ignorance at any time while posting on FFF.net...and that's saying a lot.
Ain't nothing wrong w/ John 'The Duke' Wayne. A true American cinematic hero!
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
carry weapons in the wilderness whether or not you're planning to be in the proximity of criminals. (Which, you know, illegal immigrants ARE.)
Yes, they are breaking the law. But you are basically saying everyone that wants to come to America is a violent thug when you make a sweeping generalization that you need to be armed with a high-powered weapon to patrol for illegals. Besides, according to their manifesto, they aren't supposed to BE in the vicinity of armed criminals, they are supposed to be out of anything but binocular range. By saying that they need to be right there in the way, you're only proving my (and Citizen's) points for us (that they are vigilantes looking for trouble).
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7% pointed out that there have been threats of violence against the Minutemen. He has pointed out that there are situations where violence might erupt. That seems like additional incentive, not disincentive, to keep firearms on your person.
Yes, I did point that out. But you missed my point, part of which was that having a gun in an already tense situation is likely to make things worse, not better. Flashing a pistol to show how 'safe' you are is not a smart way to ease tensions, especially if there is a language barrier.
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Now, if you could explain to me how the Minutemen differ from the Neighborhood Watch, I'd be appreciative. (I'm guessing it'll have something to do with the Minutemen legally carrying firearms.)
Or perhaps you find the Neighborhood Watch a lamentable institution as well?
I'm not fond of it, frankly, because it promotes busybodying and vigilantism in a neighborhood setting. That's what cops are for. If I wanted my neighbors spying on me with binoculars, I'd buy them a pair myself. Know your neighbors, tell them who belongs and who doesn't, and you eliminate the need for a neighborhood watch.
There was just a news article on Fark (those of you that are Farkers know, as said before, that if you want to hate the human race, that's where to start looking for material) where people climbed a bridge to watch the sunset, and someone called out the emergency rescue trucks because they thought it was suicidal jumpers. They didn't bother to ask, didn't check it out, just interfered; now the couple has to pay a fine for the cost of their 'rescue,' which they didn't need. Busybodying without penalty; the caller should have had to pay the fine instead.
Just as in the quote I provided in a post above, just because you can doesn't mean you need to sit in a bank with a pistol waiting for robbers. That's what security is for, and that's what cops are for. Might you prevent a robbery? Certainly. Might you also create a situation where innocents are killed because of you? Again, certainly.
As far as differences between them and Minutemen are concerned, I'm not sure there are that many. Bunch of racists acting beyond the law trying to keep the neighborhood 'pure.' Meh.
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Originally posted by AURaptor:
. Never mind the fact that well armed and very determined drug runners are bringing contra band(drugs) into the country, and would rather shoot first and never ask questions than run the risk of dealing w/ the cops.
So the answer to stopping violent, armed criminals that may be coming across is to put untrained civilians in between them and the people that are actually trained to stop them? Smart play. Reminds me of the South Park movie, "Operation Darkie Shield." What a great plan! It's a miracle then that nobody's been killed yet.
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And then there are Mexican as well as other Central/ South American gang members crossing the border as well. Them folk ain't here to pick avacados or pluck chickens.
Stop yourself here and ask a simple question: "Why might the government be telling Mexican gov't agents where minutemen are?" Answer, they may be working in conjunction with Mexican agents/officials in undercover operations, involving letting certain people across, and a bunch of hicks that think they're helping might get in the way of catching real crooks. Took me 2 seconds to come to that logical conclusion, but no one else thinks to ask that question?
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Ain't nothing wrong w/ John 'The Duke' Wayne. A true American cinematic hero!
Well, we can agree on something!
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Originally posted by Merchantmarine1:
You can call the Minuteman organization a bunch of racists with an agenda, hidden or exposed, but when people volunteer their time, watch the border, arrest and escort anyone crossing illegally to the proper authorities I say thank you.
I did, and they are. And I won't say thanks, because I care what is done in my name. And groups with ties to the Klan and to Aryan Nation are not groups I want representing America (and with that, me, by proxy) at our borders.
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I could care less of a groups founding principals or beliefs, there is no proof of abuse,
I care a lot, and so do many others. There's a reason decent people don't take money or gifts from Nazis or criminals; that's because no matter how beneficial it appears on the surface, there's always the taint of hate on it. No thanks.
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"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
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"Yes, they are breaking the law. But you are basically saying everyone that wants to come to America is a violent thug when you make a sweeping generalization that you need to be armed with a high-powered weapon to patrol for illegals. Besides, according to their manifesto, they aren't supposed to BE in the vicinity of armed criminals, they are supposed to be out of anything but binocular range. By saying that they need to be right there in the way, you're only proving my (and Citizen's) points for us (that they are vigilantes looking for trouble)."
Wow. You say in one sentence that drug cartels are putting violent people through the border and that they have threatened the minutemen. In the next sentence, you say that weapons are unnecessary because the Minutemen are not supposed to come within engagement range, only within binocular range.
Well, guess what?
1) Binocular range is engagement range.
2) Some folks might want to cross the border clandestine-like in situations of limited visibility. You might not see them until they are much closer than binocular range.
3) You might violate your binocular range principles in order to help someone in apparent need of assistance. And they might (as you said) be criminals seeking to execute you.
4) You missed the part (even though you quoted it) where I said I wouldn't go out into the wilderness without a weapon. Bad policy. Whether or not you're planning to be in the vicinity of criminals (which illegal immigrants ARE.)
And finally...
I don't suggest that all illegal immigrants (a 100% criminal population) are VIOLENT criminals. Heck, I'm a criminal. I've Jaywalked. But we both agree that SOME of them are. (You gave me good examples, thanks.) And so it makes sense that IF YOU CHOOSE TO PATROL then YOU OUGHT TO TAKE PRECAUTIONS FOR YOUR SAFETY.
You don't like the Neighborhood Watch, and that's fine. You think the Minutemen might do as much harm as good, and that's fine, too.
If they do as much harm as good, then we have a status quo. It then becomes a matter of personal taste and opinion.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Wow. You say in one sentence that drug cartels are putting violent people through the border and that they have threatened the minutemen. In the next sentence, you say that weapons are unnecessary because the Minutemen are not supposed to come within engagement range, only within binocular range.
Well, guess what?
1) Binocular range is engagement range.
If you aren't a trained professional, with a badge/patch/ID/whatever, you shouldn't even be in binocular range, in MY opinion. I commented on what it supposedly says in THEIR OWN manifesto, according to what StillFlyin posted.
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2) Some folks might want to cross the border clandestine-like in situations of limited visibility. You might not see them until they are much closer than binocular range.
And in a situation of limited visibility, it's that much easier for the minutemen to get into trouble. Again, they don't need to be in the area.
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3) You might violate your binocular range principles in order to help someone in apparent need of assistance. And they might (as you said) be criminals seeking to execute you.
Yes, you might, and yes, they might be. Yes, I agree that it's a great thing to be a good samaritan. But AGAIN, their own manifesto says that in those situations, they are not to provide aid, they are to call in trained personnel. What are they doing going in then, and armed?
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4) You missed the part (even though you quoted it) where I said I wouldn't go out into the wilderness without a weapon.
Didn't miss it. Ignored it as irrelevant. I'm from the southwest originally, and I know how the terrain is. Having a small pistol to deal with snakes or coyotes is a lot different than having a rifle and patrolling for 'criminals.' I wouldn't go into the wilderness without a weapon either, but when I go into the wilderness I'm not hunting people.
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I don't suggest that all illegal immigrants (a 100% criminal population) are VIOLENT criminals. Heck, I'm a criminal. I've Jaywalked. But we both agree that SOME of them are. (You gave me good examples, thanks.) And so it makes sense that IF YOU CHOOSE TO PATROL then YOU OUGHT TO TAKE PRECAUTIONS FOR YOUR SAFETY.
THEY SHOULDN'T BE PATROLLING! They aren't law enforcement personnell, which makes them vigilantes. If they had badges, they'd have a legitimate purpose for being there; they don't, so they don't. It's why we have special people who get to drive special trucks marked 'Border Patrol,' and we give them special toys like handcuffs and walkie-talkies.
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If they do as much harm as good, then we have a status quo.
Currently they are not hurting anything, but what do we do when they do? When the first one gets killed, or they screw up a clandestine operation? What do we do then? Go "whoops, well I guess that didn't work out!"? By then it'll be too late. We have law enforcement for a reason, not the least of which is a safety issue for our own citizens.
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Originally posted by reaverman:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Our fathers and grandfathers didn't defeat the Germans just so George W Bush could surrender to the Mexicans!!
AURaptor, I'm surprised. You seem to be channeling PN here. I agree with you that this is a serious problem, but this isn't a war. Migrants aren't coming here to ruin our country or bring down the government or somesuch. They are just people who, like most people, don't think long term. What they see are greener pastures than what they have at home. Most don't (or refuse to) see that what they are doing will eventually bring this country to its knees economically.
You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.
Well, America has changed. I mean when immigrants come here they should have a little more respect for the the bases in which this country was built upon. How many Americans sacrificed their lives through the years so that Americea could be what it's become?
Slowly, things are changing. I mean not having the pledge of Allegience at school anymore? How many years before us were our parents and grandparents saying that? No one ever complained too much.
I do have more poignant facts to argue, but my mind seems to be fried today. Maybe another time...
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for immagration and America being the 'promised land,' but I just don't think that America should lose it's identity.
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May the feas of a thousand camels infest the crotch of the person who has ruined your day, and may their arms be too short to scratch~Anonymous
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I was starting to smell "conspiracy wacko" but as I was reading this first couple of posts...Fox News also broke the story.
~~~~~
"Funny and sexy. You have no idea. And you never will."
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If all they're doing is watching the border why are they armed? Why are they afraid for their safety? Its vigilantism, a bunch of Cowboys who think it's still the 1860's and they're "gonna get them varmints, yeehah! I'm a callin' you out bawy!".
Gee, Citizen..why on Earth would they ever THINK of being armed ? Hmmmmm ( I know I mentioned this in my other post, but this gives a bit more detail to the matter. )
*******************************************
Gang will target Minuteman vigil on Mexico border
By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
NACO, Ariz. -- Members of a violent Central America-based gang have been sent to Arizona to target Minuteman Project volunteers, who will begin a monthlong border vigil this weekend to find and report foreigner sneaking into the United States, project officials say.
James Gilchrist, a Vietnam veteran who helped organize the vigil to protest the federal government's failure to control illegal immigration, said he has been told that California and Texas leaders of Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, have issued orders to teach "a lesson" to the Minuteman volunteers
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Originally posted by UnregisteredCompanion:
I was starting to smell "conspiracy wacko" but as I was reading this first couple of posts...Fox News also broke the story.
~~~~~
"Funny and sexy. You have no idea. And you never will."
"Conspiracy whacko" ? Ouch, you doth wound me, UnregisteredCompaion. I leave such whacko post for the likes of Piratenews. This is simply how it is. I still hope there's some big mix up, but so far, the word from the Gov't hasn't been reassuring.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Originally posted by LysCat:
I mean not having the pledge of Allegience at school anymore? How many years before us were our parents and grandparents saying that? No one ever complained too much.
They still say it where I teach. We say it every morning, with the bulletin. Almost all schools in my area do. This is one of those 'War on Xmas' issues that when one school does it, it's "Oh no, we're becoming unglued!"
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Don't get me wrong, I'm all for immagration and America being the 'promised land,' but I just don't think that America should lose it's identity.
America's identity is about immigration and racial mixing. Does "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" ring a bell?
Sorry if I'm snarky, but for some reason this thread has me wound up today. What's weirder, is the more I argue, the more I'm coming down on the side I wasn't even sure I agreed with when I started today. Go figure.
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"THEY SHOULDN'T BE PATROLLING!"
You know what... I've got to agree with you.
First, let's make a new law that says that non-law-enforcement personnel aren't allowed within X miles of the border, and that anyone caught within this perimiter is to be arrested.
Then, let's enforce this law. Let's hire thousands of patrolmen to enforce the border policy. We'll call them... The Border Patrol. That's catchy. They probably ought to be a subdivision of the Department for Homeland Security, perhaps directed by Customs.
Then we'll finance this new agency and give them whatever support they need to catch those lawbreakers who violate the border zone. With this program in place, violations of the Border Zone would be reduced, and a safer climate would be had by all.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Deal. I'm all for it. As a matter of fact, why don't we train some of our Guard to work as border patrol agents. To me, THAT is an effective way to handle the problem. We'd probably have the budget for it if we weren't mishandling the 'War On A Concept,' but that's another issue entirely.
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"why don't we train some of our Guard to work as border patrol agents?"
That strikes me as a blazingly good idea, especially since it SOUNDS like the National Guard is meant to Guard our Nation, and patrolling the border seems a good way to do that.
You could easily divide up the thousands of National Guardsmen into small groups of 4 men led my a Customs/Border Patrol officer. Then they could patrol the border in force and with effectiveness.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Originally posted by LysCat:
Well, America has changed. I mean when immigrants come here they should have a little more respect for the the bases in which this country was built upon.
If it came down to obeying the laws of a foreign nation, or giving you and your childrren the opportunity to live a better life, which would you choose? I too think they should respect the law, but I understand why they don't.
You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.
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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Doesn't make them 'bad', 'evil' or 'inferior', but they are still illegal. And me pointing out that simple fact doesn't make me a 'racist' or a 'bigot'.
I know it doesn't make you racist. I never said it did.
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I WANT more people to become Americans. America is a great place, and I want them to love it as much as I do, if not more. But how the hell can they respect this country when they ignored so many of it's basic laws?
I agree with you that they should learn to love or at least respect this country. But once again, I'll ask the question: Laws, or a better life for you and/or your family?
You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.
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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Gee, what do you call the Mexican Americans, citizens who are also part of this effort ? Are 'they' racist too? There's nothing RACIST about this in the least.
"Nothing racist about this in the least"? Ha! That's funny! It seems fairly obvious that some of them are racist. I understand that many of them (maybe even the majority of them) are not racists, but there are bound to be some. The Minutemen are a perfect opportunity for a hardcore racist. You can descriminate without worrying about the consequences. You can carry a gun. But most of all, you get to help stop Mexicans from entering the country. The group wasn't founded for a racist cause, but it is compatible with some racists' goals.
You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.
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Originally posted by AURaptor:
When you call it 'vigilantism, you have never shown more ignorance at any time while posting on FFF.net...and that's saying a lot.
Actually its your ignorance, but that's par for the course. I realise you probably don't know what vigilantism means though, so do you need me to quote the dictionary or go straight to drawing the inevitable picture for you?
Vigilantism is people taking the law in to their own hands, since that's pretty much what they're doing, because your law enforcement agencies are incapable of doing it themselves I think the word fits quite well. Most people in most democratic nations demand the government improves they're law enforcement agencies, your mates grab their guns and head for the border.
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Gee, Citizen..why on Earth would they ever THINK of being armed ? Hmmmmm ( I know I mentioned this in my other post, but this gives a bit more detail to the matter. )
Well golly gee there big 'A', would that be them folks that have decided to take that there law into there own hands by raisin' a posse?
Gee, what's this? On their own website they say strictly no contact with immigrants.
They can't be following their own rules huh.
Someone's going to get killed and the only people to blame will be them, running around with guns getting in the way of violent and desperate criminals and the proper authorities.
"You're running around with guns, what did you think was going to happen."
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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"I realise you probably don't know what vigilantism means though, so do you need me to quote the dictionary or go straight to drawing the inevitable picture for you?
Vigilantism is people taking the law in to their own hands, since that's pretty much what they're doing, because your law enforcement agencies are incapable of doing it themselves I think the word fits quite well. Most people in most democratic nations demand the government improves they're law enforcement agencies, your mates grab their guns and head for the border."
Whatever you think of the idea of vigilantes, or the Minutemen, or the Neighborhood Watch, or the Guardian Angels, or anyone else...
Let me set you straight on something.
Vigilante is a Spanish word with Latin roots.
It means 'Watchman.'
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
That strikes me as a blazingly good idea, especially since it SOUNDS like the National Guard is meant to Guard our Nation, and patrolling the border seems a good way to do that.
You could easily divide up the thousands of National Guardsmen into small groups of 4 men led my a Customs/Border Patrol officer. Then they could patrol the border in force and with effectiveness.
Now call me a loony but given the choice between a tooled up untrained citizen and a trained national guard patrol I'd go with the patrol.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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It comes from the latin Vigil.
But for all your wanting of it to mean the night watchmen of Rome (Vigiles Urbanus) that's not what it means.
# One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.
# self-appointed doer of justice.
Vigilante group:
A group organized without government authority to enforce its own concept of law and order or to advance its own interests outside the established process of law.
www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/100-20/10020gl.
htm
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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I'm just catching up on the explosion in posts on this thread so these comments are more in the way of generalizations rather than directed at specific points.
To me, the Minutemen are not so different from gangs who use the threat of violence to intimidate and harass those who are weaker than them. You get no points in my book for going after those who got a shorter end of the stick than you did. Especially not if part of the motivation stems from a belief that Americans should look a certain way and that those who do not are less deserving of basic human rights. The Minutemen are taking the easy way out. Picking on the stragglers, so to speak, instead of going after the strong. If they were really serious about reforming our immigration policies they would be filing lawsuits against corporations, leading boycotts of various industries, lobbying for an increase in the wages paid to workers in certain fields (and accepting the increase in prices that would follow), etc. In other words, going after the most powerful root causes for our immigration problems. But no, it's always easier to kick down than up. ETA: Especially if you believe the ones you are kicking are less human because of the color of their skin.
Our first Minutemen stood up to the most elite army in the world. Today's Minutemen target some of the most disadvantaged people on this continent. Heroes? Bullshit.
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What the Minutemen say to the media and what they say when they think the media aren't around are two different things. First and foremost this is a publicity stunt. So I would be surprised if they actually put something on their website that was representative of what they thought or what they planned on doing. If you have the time, I recommend reading some of the articles written by those who have gone undercover. I linked to a report from a TV station in Phoenix further up the thread. Here's a report from the Southern Poverty Law Center (an organization that monitors hate groups): http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=557 .
ETA: This is in regards to StillFlyin's post quoting from the Minuteman website.
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"It comes from the latin Vigil.
But for all your wanting of it to mean the night watchmen of Rome (Vigiles Urbanus) that's not what it means.
# One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.
# self-appointed doer of justice.
Vigilante group:
A group organized without government authority to enforce its own concept of law and order or to advance its own interests outside the established process of law.
www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/100-20/10020gl.
htm"
Well, if that's the definition you're using...
Then the Minutemen don't qualify. They don't take law enforcement into their own hands. They don't enforce their own concept of law and order.
They observe and report. Or am I mistaken? Have they been lynching Mexicans and summarily executing them? I hadn't heard.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT
Well, if that's the definition you're using...
And what definition do you expect me to use, other than the one that everyone uses and understands? Your's seems to be an attempt at spin.
As for the rest: vigilantes are exactly what they are, they've taken it upon themselves, in the absence (this may be perceived or actual) of professionals to do the job of the border patrol, who enforce the law.
Their doing the job of professionals whose job it is to enforce the law:
# One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.
# self-appointed doer of justice.
Both fit quite well.
From Soupcatchers website:
Quote:
"It should be legal to kill illegals," said Carl, a 69-year old retired Special Forces veteran who fought in Vietnam and now lives out West. "Just shoot 'em on sight. That's my immigration policy recommendation. You break into my country, you die."
Carl was armed with a revolver chambered to fire shotgun shells. He wore this hand cannon in a holster below a shirt that howled "American bad asses" in red, white and blue. The other vigilantes assigned to Station Two included a pair of self-professed members of the National Alliance, a violent neo-Nazi organization. These men, who gave their names only as Johnny and Michael, were outfitted in full-body camouflage and strapped with semi-automatic pistols.
...
Vigilante militias have been capturing, pistol-whipping and very possibly shooting Latin American immigrants in Cochise County since the late '90s, when shifts in U.S. border control policies transformed the high desert region into the primary point of entry for Mexico's two most valuable black market exports, drugs and people.
But the Minuteman Project raised the stakes with a highly publicized national recruiting drive followed by a campaign of deceitful media manipulation.
In fact a fair few posts here call them Vigilantes to. They have options in a democratic government for ensuring the law is upheld by those duly appointed to do so; they chose to run around on the border with guns that makes them...
Vigilantes.
When I first heard about this story (a few days before this thread) I felt unsettled about it. Funnilly enough the more people try to convince me that it's a good thing and the more I learn on the subject the more my initial reaction is confirmed.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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Quote:
"And what definition do you expect me to use, other than the one that everyone uses and understands? Your's seems to be an attempt at spin.
As for the rest: vigilantes are exactly what they are, they've taken it upon themselves, in the absence (this may be perceived or actual) of professionals to do the job of the border patrol, who enforce the law."
Sorry, but your definition still doesn't work. Unless you can find me references to the Minutemen enforcing the law? You know, like a news article that says, "Member of the Minutemen organization was arrested today for capturing illegal immigrants, handcuffing them, and etc." Have they been running down border-crossers and arresting them? I hadn't heard.
Have they been murdering border-crossers? Again, I haven't heard.
Have they been doing something other than observe-and-report? I haven't heard.
Let me be clear. If the Minutemen break the law, they should be arrested.
If they are observing crimes and reporting them to law enforcement, then they aren't enforcing the law. They're reporting crime to law enforcement. That is the duty of any citizen who witnesses a crime. It's not illegal. And it's not vigilantism. Not by YOUR definition.
However, if Observing illegal border crossing and Reporting that to the authorities is what you mean by vigilantism...
Then you are using MY definition. The one you don't like. The one that doesn't have people conducting illegal arrest, seizure, assault, or imprisonment.
So, help me out here. Are the Minutemen breaking the Law or not? Are they taking the law into their own hands? Or are they telling law enforcement about crimes being committed?
Which is it?
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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SUCKERNOMICS
U.S. tipping Mexico to Minuteman patrols
www.dailybulletin.com/portlet/article/html/fragments/print_article.jsp
?article=3799653
Let's see, the Jews who own and control USA illegally order wideopen borders via NAFTA, WTO and United Nations Corporation, and accuse as "racist vigilante" any US citizen who opposes their treasonous illegal scam. The Jewish Hispanics who control Mexico illegally tell their Mexican citizens that USA belongs to Mexico and that USA should be invaded and destroyed.
The ZioNazi Jews in USA steal billions of US taxdollars to give to Israel (the most racist government on Earth), to build its apartheid wall INSIDE Israel, to make its Palestinian citzens into impoverished slaves inside their own nation. But those same Jews violently oppose a wall for USA to guard its external border.
This is also the goal inside USA, not with walls, but with NAFTA Highways that BYPASS entire US cities, to bring ALL citizens and manufactured products from Mexico, Central America and South America to overthrow USA.
Even the newspapers in Jewish Israel proudly compare their wall to the Jewish Communist Berlin Wall (very large graphic file):
newspagedesigner.com/users/4026/israelwall.jpg
Quote:
THE JERUSALEM BETHLEHAM WALL
Arab Semites are slaves INSIDE their own fukkin country of Israel
http://easycarts.net/ecarts/CounterPunch/CP_Books.html
www.unimaps.com/historic-israel-palestine3/
Arab Semites are slaves INSIDE their own fukkin country of Israel
www.palestinercs.org/separation_wall.htm
www.unimaps.com/historic-israel-palestine3/
Israel's goal in building the wall appears threefold; one, confiscation of land and water for future expansion of the West Bank colonisation, two, unilaterally redraw geopolitical borders, and three, encourage the exodus of Palestinians by denying them the ability to earn a living from their land.
Israel continues to deny the Palestinian people adequate water resources and restrict their movements to to such an extent as to make living in their village an unviable option.
The World Court in the Hague in July 2004 announced it's verdict that the wall is illegal and must go. A victory for the Palestinians, but the decision will most likely be ignored by Israel.
Arab Semites are slaves INSIDE their own fukkin country of Israel
www.palestinercs.org/separation_wall.htm
Arab Semites are slaves INSIDE their own fukkin country of Israel
www.palestinercs.org/separation_wall.htm
"From the time of King Solomon to our very days the Holy Land was either united with Trans-Jordan or attached to Syria or Turkey. Western Palestine was never a single and independent entity and certainly a part of that cannot possibly constitute an independent state, as envisaged in the various plans that are discussed from time to time. However, the basic reason for our opposition to an Independent Jewish state as that in prevailing circumstances the officially recognised representation of the Jewish people does not consider the authority of the Holy Law as binding in the public affairs of the Jewish people, and it is contrary to the wishes of G-d to create a Jewish State."
-Rabbi Yosef Tzvi Dushinsky, STATEMENT TO THE U.N. SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON PALESTINE, July 16, 1947
Jews Against Zionism
www.jewsagainstzionism.com
Arab Semites are slaves INSIDE their own fukkin country of Israel
www.ccmep.org/2004_articles/palestine/012304_israels_wall_and_why_its_
not_a.htm
Semite.
1 a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia incNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
021203WBRR2.jpg)
Piratenews,
Whenever I start to agree with you on an issue, you do a good job of making me look at my position and sanity very carefully, and wonder, "How can I agree, even in small part, with THAT man's position?"
I will now retire in self-examination, and wonder where my reasoning led me astray, that I found myself on the same side of an argument as you.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Maybe you need to read my definition again. It goes a little something like this:
Someone who does the job of a law enforcement agency, off their own back. In other words someone who takes the law in to their own hands.
So their not doing that, despite that being exactly what they said they were doing and wanted to do?
I don't remember saying they had to be off lynching Mexicans to be vigilantes, although:
Lets read Soupcatchers article:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=557
Quote:
At Station Two, Minuteman volunteers grilled bratwursts and fantasized about murder.
"It should be legal to kill illegals," said Carl, a 69-year old retired Special Forces veteran who fought in Vietnam and now lives out West. "Just shoot 'em on sight. That's my immigration policy recommendation. You break into my country, you die."
Well thats reasonable I suppose. Not like their actually doing it, they just want to, but they're worried they won't get away with it.
Quote:
Vigilante militias have been capturing, pistol-whipping and very possibly shooting Latin American immigrants in Cochise County since the late '90s
I said they were doing the border patrols job, which they are and doing that is taking the law in their own hands. The feel they need to be armed, so they obviously think their coming into contact with Mexicans crossing the border, so they're not just observing, they're approaching people as well.
Funnily enough you can pick up binos that have high magnification power, well out of the range of a pistol, so they can observe without ever needing to get close. But they need a relatively close range weapon like a pistol, so which is it, are they observing from a distance or getting in close?
But at least it's not racially motivated, and the founders have no history of taking the law in to their own hands:
Quote:
The Minuteman Project was the brainchild of two fathers: Jim Gilchrist, a retired accountant and Vietnam veteran from Orange County, California, and Chris Simcox...
...
While Gilchrist is newly prominent on the anti-immigration front — he recently joined the California Coalition for Immigration Reform, a hate group whose leader routinely describes Mexicans as "savages" — Simcox has been active since 2002, when he founded Civil Homeland Defense, a Tombstone-based vigilante militia that he brags has captured more than 5,000 Mexicans and Central Americans who entered the country without visas.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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Im not gunna try and get into the middle of this but all I wanna say is, to those of you who don't support the Minutemen, do you really wan't a bunch of Spanish "immagrints" (and I use the term loosly) to come into the United States without appling for a visa, and then start taking jobs away from much more skilled American workers? We have plenty of our own poor and underprivaleged people here in the United States that could be getting job training and takeing the jobs that the illegals are, which would, lets face it, help the lower costs, in taxes, of social security and would also help lower our unemployment rate... I have nothing agianst ANYONE who legally came to the United States, and went through the HELL of buricratic red tape to become a legal US citizen, but why should they have to go through that and then loose a job to some border hopping illegal, who didn't do a DAMN thing to be here but hop the border and evade local law enforcement?? Does that seem right to you?
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Hey Citizen,
Thanks for waking me up from my Piratenews meditations.
So... You've still got no information on Minutemen being arrested for any border crimes, eh? Nuts. At least your anectodal heresy is very compelling. That, and reports of anonymous vigilantes pistol whipping and murdering border crossers. Any of them Minutemen? Because if so, you might be able to find that report of "Minutemen arrested for murdering and pistol whipping border-crossers today." Let me know how that goes. Because if you find that report, I will TOTALLY SWITCH MY POSITION AND BERATE THE MINUTEMEN. That's right. Now hold me to it.
But, by a big and mighty stretch of the truth, you HAVE managed to show that the Minutemen are doing the job of Border Patrol... By watching for criminals, and reporting criminal activity to the authorities.
Citizen... I watch for criminals everywhere I go. I've even reported criminal activity to the police.
I had NO IDEA until you explained it to me that I was doing the job of law enforcement.
Does that make me a Vigilante?
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat2006:
Im not gunna try and get into the middle of this but all I wanna say is, to those of you who don't support the Minutemen, do you really wan't a bunch of Spanish "immagrints" (and I use the term loosly) to come into the United States without appling for a visa, and then start taking jobs away from much more skilled American workers?
If you've been following this thread, then you'll know that the two are entirely separate issues. The debate isn't even over whether or not mass immigration is a good thing, it's over the Minuteman Project. You have used a fallacy known as a Complex Question, sometimes confused with a False Dilemna, in which you present two different arguments combined as one (FDil. is giving two choices when in fact there are three).
I do not support the Minutemen, and after reading Soupcatcher's posted web article I'm even more convinced that they are degenerates. But that doesn't mean that i'm in favor of loose borders either (look above, for the post in which Anthony and I agreed that there should be more spent on border patrol).
Quote:
I have nothing agianst ANYONE who legally came to the United States, and went through the HELL of buricratic red tape to become a legal US citizen, but why should they have to go through that and then loose a job to some border hopping illegal, who didn't do a DAMN thing to be here but hop the border and evade local law enforcement?? Does that seem right to you?
Some of these folks escape horrid conditions and regimes to make it to the US. What happens to someone fleeing, oh, let's say El Salvador, only to get here and be turned away because they don't have a "viable skill" other than being willing to work slave wages to stay here. That's why it's a tough issue for me, and a lot of others. Crack down on corporations that hire them and loosen up the immigration process, and you may see some of those numbers of illgals come down.
------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.
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Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
SUCKERNOMICS...
blah... blah... blah...
Jesus Christ, PN, just give it the fuck up! No one cares what you think. No one believes what you say. Take your ignorant, racist, homophobic, anti-semitic bullshit elsewhere!
YOU ARE NOT WANTED HERE!!!
You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.
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"Spanish "immagrints""
To my knowledge, there is no rash of people from Spain trying to sneak into the country illegally.
Mexico History - Inhabited for more than 20,000 years, the area produced great civilizations in AD 100-900, incl. the Olmec, Toltec, Mayan, and Aztec. The Aztec were conquered in 1521 by Spanish explorer H. Cortés, who established Mexico City on the site of the Aztec capital, Tenochtitlán. Francisco de Montejo conquered the remnants of Maya civilization in 1526, and Mexico became part of the viceroyalty of New Spain. In 1821 rebels negotiated a status quo independence from Spain, and in 1823 a new congress declared Mexico a republic.
So, just so you know, the Spanish landed, conquered the native people, and committed genocide.
Then the colony revolted against Spain, and gained independence.
Mexican history is a lot like American history. And just like the Mexicans aren't Spanish, Americans aren't British.
My Spanish ancestors did a similar thing to Cuba, where they wiped out the indiginous people. But Cuba gained independence from Spain (with some help) and now the people there are called Cubans, not Spanish.
The Spanish people live in a part of Europe called Spain. It's right on the west end. They are generally doing fine and don't try to illegally cross US borders.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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I checked AP, Reuters, CNN , NYTimes, WashPost and others and no major news organizating is reporting or carrying this story. Every reference (politicians decrying ...) goes back to the Bulletin from Ontario, California.
I'm going to wait for some confirmation.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Gee, Citizen..why on Earth would they ever THINK of being armed ? Hmmmmm ( I know I mentioned this in my other post, but this gives a bit more detail to the matter. )
*******************************************
Gang will target Minuteman vigil on Mexico border
By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
NACO, Ariz. -- Members of a violent Central America-based gang have been sent to Arizona to target Minuteman Project volunteers, who will begin a monthlong border vigil this weekend to find and report foreigner sneaking into the United States, project officials say.
James Gilchrist, a Vietnam veteran who helped organize the vigil to protest the federal government's failure to control illegal immigration, said he has been told that California and Texas leaders of Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, have issued orders to teach "a lesson" to the Minuteman volunteers
I remember reading this article at the time and being surprised that the only attribution for this claim comes from Gilchrist himself. If you read the entire article ( http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20050328-125306-7868r.htm ) there is no additional mention of the threat beyond the paragraphs you included. It's basically an advertisement for the Minutemen (poor journalism, in my book) and information about MS-13 (good journalism, in my book). To me the relevant sections are, "project officials say," and "Gilchrist ... said he had been told." Which is really the same thing.
In doing a search to see if I could dig up the basis for this claim I found a number of different pages. They all reference one particular article from the La Voz de Aztlan website ( http://www.aztlan.net/salvatruchas_vs_minutemen.htm ). For those of you who don't know, La Voz de Aztlan could charitably be described as "loony fringe freaks with no influence." As far as I can tell Ebner Anivel Rivera-Paz is a leader in MS-13 and he is in jail. But aside from the Voice of Aztlan, there is no evidence that he ordered a hit on the Minutemen.
Now I'm not saying that the leader of MS-13 didn't order a hit. I just can't find any actual quote from a source that doesn't make me want to shower after reading some of their stuff. So at this point I'd say it's apocryphal. It does fit in nicely with the paranoia that many supremacist groups exhibit and use as rationalization for their offensive stance, however. So, to me, the important thing is that there is no doubt in my mind that Gilchrist and other Minutemen think MS-13 is after them. And have tailored their actions accordingly.
ETA: I want to add that the US Border Patrol did issue a warning to their employees that they had received information from the FBI that MS-13 was targetting Border Patrol agents. But there was nothing in that warning about MS-13 targetting civilian groups.
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I deal with PN by scrolling to the links, some of which are interesting.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
So... You've still got no information on Minutemen being arrested for any border crimes, eh? Nuts. At least your anectodal heresy is very compelling. That, and reports of anonymous vigilantes pistol whipping and murdering border crossers. Any of them Minutemen? Because if so, you might be able to find that report of "Minutemen arrested for murdering and pistol whipping border-crossers today." Let me know how that goes. Because if you find that report, I will TOTALLY SWITCH MY POSITION AND BERATE THE MINUTEMEN. That's right. Now hold me to it.
Hey AnthonyT,
The short answer is there have been no members of the Gilchrist/Simcox version of the Minutemen arrested in Arizona. From the accounts I've read they were kept under observation by observers from the ACLU. The observers, combined with the media, outnumbered the Minutemen by a good margin. There was also very little activity along that particular stretch of the border while the Minutemen were there. So not much opportunity. Basically, the entire operation was a publicity stunt. And it was extremely successful in that respect. It garnered a lot of positive media attention and shone a spotlight on the topic of illegal immigration. About all that can be said, from their own comments when they thought the media were not around, is that they fervently wanted to engage in illegal activity up to and including murder. Which is not a crime. Psychotic, yes. Criminal, no.
Other border watch groups and individuals, however, have not been under as much scrutiny. And Cochise County has seen a number of incidents over the past many years. Some of these were alleged to have been committed by people on their own property (I'm not sure why, but I tend to think of those incidents as different from the ones that happened along roads). Here's a couple of links just to give a flavor:
http://www.splcenter.org/center/splcreport/article.jsp?aid=33
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=9
There's also ambiguity on just how many of these incidents are occurring due to a number of factors as outlined in this article:
http://www.azstarnet.com/dailystar/allheadlines/67826.php
So I feel confident saying that vigilante behavior is occurring along the border. And I also feel confident in the belief that members of the Simcox/Gilchrist Minutemen fantasize about engaging in all manner of unpleasantness. But members of that particular group have not, to my knowledge, been charged with any crime.
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So... bad people have done bad things along the border.
But no Minutemen yet.
All right. Well, let's be specific in our condemnations.
As for the minutemen having racist psycho asshats in their ranks...
Well, I've worked with people like that my whole life, on any particular job. Asshats seem to grow on trees. I'm not prepared to condemn the Minutemen yet.
But of course, they are one arrest away from that line.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
So... You've still got no information on Minutemen being arrested for any border crimes, eh? Nuts.
Well not at 3 O’clock in the morning when I've got work at 6, no, but how's this:
Quote:
Border Vigilante Arrested for Illegally Detaining Immigrant
The ACLU said it has learned through discussions with the Border Patrol that a Minuteman volunteer from Colorado was arrested after he was found with two migrants in his car.
http://www.aclu.org/immigrants/gen/21241prs20051024.html
Maybe he was just observing them, from his rear-view mirror...
I found loads of reports, but many of them were just minutemen violently attacking protestors and the like, so I thought I'd keep it to Immigrants.
Quote:
Any of them Minutemen?
Apart from one of the co-founders of the group you mean?
But if you still won't take my word for it, lets ask the man Gilchrist himself:
Quote:
Gilchrist at a minuteman rally:
"I'm damned proud to be a vigilante."
Quote:
Citizen... I watch for criminals everywhere I go. I've even reported criminal activity to the police.
I had NO IDEA until you explained it to me that I was doing the job of law enforcement.
Does that make me a Vigilante?
You walk around your home town gun on your hip purposefully looking for crimes and intervening on occasion? Then yes, you'd be a vigilante.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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Quote:
Vigilantism is people taking the law in to their own hands, since that's pretty much what they're doing, because your law enforcement agencies are incapable of doing it themselves I think the word fits quite well. Most people in most democratic nations demand the government improves they're law enforcement agencies, your mates grab their guns and head for the border.
They're not in any way 'taking the law into their own hands', you moron. They're not 'arresting' anyone, they're not rounding folks up. All they're doing is informing Border Patrol where the illegals are. My mates grab their guns because its their constitutional right TO grab our guns,and the border is where the illegals , for the most part, are coming from. Seems pretty straight forward to me, somehow you have a problem w/ basic logic.
Quote:Again, ignorance raises it's ugly head..oh, wait..that's just citizen again. Now you're calling the Minutemen a POSSE ? Too gorram funny. Not all of them carry guns, but merely having one does more to KEEP trouble from happening than to cause it. It's called 'defense' , and that's what has been lacking along the border for many, many years.
Well golly gee there big 'A', would that be them folks that have decided to take that there law into there own hands by raisin' a posse?
Gee, what's this? On their own website they say strictly no contact with immigrants.
They can't be following their own rules huh.
Someone's going to get killed and the only people to blame will be them, running around with guns getting in the way of violent and desperate criminals and the proper authorities.
To help confuse the issue, there's not just 1 Minutemen group. There's at least 3 different ones. Don't know which sites you've been grabbing your quotes from, nor does it seem to matter, as you ignore any facts equally. If I were to say the sun was up, you'd say it was down, simply to be contrarian. I get that now. Wasted far too much time on your irrelevent post.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Oh AU, bringing nothing to the discussion except personal insults and bullshit as usual. It's no surprise to me you support the Minutemen group wholeheartedly; you've probably heard they had links to racist hate groups 
.
Now I'd bother refuting the baseless claims you've just made, but I don't need to, the one's you made aimed at me I've already proven to be false countless times (where conversely you've merely proven them true about you, funny that 
) and the ones regarding Minutemen I've refuted several times on this thread. I realise you have problems with reading so get back to me when your care worker has finished reading it too you, okay .
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not all of them carry guns, but merely having one does more to KEEP trouble from happening than to cause it. .
I seriously doubt, that having a gun helps avoiding trouble. I think having a gun, more often causes trouble, whatever the intention was...
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
My mates grab their guns because its their constitutional right TO grab our guns,and the border is where the illegals , for the most part, are coming from.
M.Moore: "I left the Heston estate atop Beverly Hills and walked back into the real world. To an America living and breathing in fear. Where gun sales are now at an all record high. And where, in the end, it all comes back to 'Bowling for Columbine'".
A.
Michael Moore: Now wait a minute... The Constitution says you've got the right to bear arms. What do you think 'arms' means?
John Nichols: Well it's not like these...
[waves his arms]
John Nichols: It means we ought to have handguns if we want to.
Michael Moore: What about nuclear weapons? Should you be able to have weapons-grade plutonium?
John Nichols: [pauses] ... Well I think that oughta be restricted.
_____________________________________________
John Nichols: There's a lot of wackos out there.
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Now *this* is a posse...and they happen to be tied to law enforcement as well...
Just out of curisoity, where does the debate fall with this? Or am I out of line and introducing things irrelevant to the discussion? (see the False Dilema point above).
Amiton.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,195083,00.html
Arizona Sheriff Uses Anti-Smuggling Law to Target Illegal Immigrants
Thursday, May 11, 2006
GILA BEND, Ariz. — One Arizona county sheriff has created a 250-strong posse to hunt down those who cross the border illegally.
“It’s a felony; I am enforcing a new law,” Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio told FOX News. “I’m the elected sheriff and I’m going to do what I feel is right regardless of the controversy.”
Arpaio, the sheriff for Arizona's most populous county, is taking advantage of a new state law that allows charging undocumented immigrants with conspiracy to smuggle themselves into the United States. The anti-human-smuggling statute that took effect in Arizona in August and gave prosecutors a tool to go after "coyotes," or smugglers, who traffic in undocumented immigrants.
The Maricopa County Attorney's Office later issued an opinion saying undocumented immigrants suspected of paying coyotes could be prosecuted as conspirators. But Arpaio's actions are already causing some controversy.
On Wednesday night, Arpaio and his posse launched patrols in desert areas and major roadways southwest of Phoenix in search of illegal immigrants to arrest. FOX News' William LaJeunesse rode along on some of the patrols.
The group was comprised of existing Maricopa County sheriff's deputies and members of the department's 3,000-member posse reserve of trained volunteers.
The posse was patrolling the area here for illegal immigrants who pay smugglers to cross through Arizona, the busiest illegal entry point along the 2,000-mile U.S.-Mexico border. There was at least one arrest Wednesday night.
Those who are captured by the posse may end up in jail, charged under the state law that allowed local law enforcement agencies to charge suspected smugglers in Arizona — it was already a federal crime.
It has been used against more than 100 illegal immigrants in Maricopa County this year. The law was meant to crack down on smugglers, but under a disputed interpretation, County Attorney Andrew Thomas argues the law also can be applied to the smuggled immigrants themselves.
Thomas maintains illegal immigrants who pay smugglers to enter the United States are committing conspiracy to smuggle and can therefore be prosecuted under the state law. It's punishable by up to two years in jail.
"It's going to be a help to the county," posse member D.J. Pigott said. "Illegal immigrants are getting everything that, in my estimation, they should not get. We're being overrun by these people. If the federal government is not going to do it, the sheriff is going to do it."
It remains to be seen whether a judge will uphold the smuggling law as applicable to illegal immigrants. Lawyers for some arrested illegal immigrants have filed motions to have the charges dismissed.
The Center for Human Rights and Constitutional Law in Los Angeles is challenging Thomas's interpretation.
"We agree with Andrew Thomas that federal immigration policy is a mess," said Peter Schey, director of the human rights group. "But we part company when it comes to what should be done about that. We don't believe anyone has the right to break the law because they're frustrated with federal policy."
Even the authors of the state smuggling law say it was meant to crack down on violent immigrant smugglers — not the people they're transporting.
"I never intended that immigrants would be arrested," said Rep. Jonathan Paton, a Republican who was one of three legislators to write the smuggling law.
Other police agencies say that arresting illegal immigrants under the law would overwhelm them financially.
"I can't afford to do what Sheriff Arpaio is doing," said Sheriff Tony Estrada of Santa Cruz County, one of four Arizona b
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
Or am I out of line and introducing things irrelevant to the discussion? (see the False Dilema point above).
I'm not sure if this was taking a shot at me personally or what. I called that guy out for saying there was only one choice, support the Minutemen or want illegals in the country. But this...
Quote:
The group was comprised of existing Maricopa County sheriff's deputies and members of the department's 3,000-member posse reserve of trained volunteers.
...makes most of my point for me, and is very relevant to the discussion. I underlined the parts I felt are appropriate to what points I was making vis-a-vis the Minutemen. I have no problem with trained law-enforcement personnel safeguarding smuggling lanes. I do have a problem with untrained idiots with guns doing the same thing.
------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
I have no problem with trained law-enforcement personnel safeguarding smuggling lanes. I do have a problem with untrained idiots with guns doing the same thing.
I agree. But the Minutemen are hardly acting in the same capacity as Border Patrol or even the so-called Posse in Arizona. They are mostly just sitting in lawn chairs with binoculars, a cell phone, some bottled water, and a first aid kit. They call in those they spot and help any that need help.
Its not reported...but thats their business model.
Its not a whole lot different then a neighborhood watch. I'd go myself but its really hot down there in the summer. But my vacations coming up in July and if I spot any illegals during my roadtrip to visit family in the Great State of West By-God Virginia...I'll call them in. I'm not trained...but I can manage a phone call as good as any deputy or border agent.
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
I'm not sure if this was taking a shot at me personally or what. I called that guy out for saying there was only one choice, support the Minutemen or want illegals in the country. But this...Quote:
The group was comprised of existing Maricopa County sheriff's deputies and members of the department's 3,000-member posse reserve of trained volunteers.
...makes most of my point for me, and is very relevant to the discussion. I underlined the parts I felt are appropriate to what points I was making vis-a-vis the Minutemen. I have no problem with trained law-enforcement personnel safeguarding smuggling lanes. I do have a problem with untrained idiots with guns doing the same thing.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, 7%. I wasn't taking a shot at anybody. I asked that as a legitimate question. I'm interested in what people have to say and since this wasn't directly tied to the Minutemen group, I asked. The intent was a gesture of civility, not my poor attempt at being an ass.
The article seemed to fit in well with the counterpoint of the discussion - on both sides - but from a slightly different perspective. They're still civilian volunteers, but they're trained and enabled by a formal law organization.
At any rate, it was supposed to be a submission to contribute to the debate that was in the mainstream press. It illustrates some of the issues on both sides of the debate, so I had hoped to put it out here without being partial to one side or the other right now.
Amiton.
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"a Minuteman volunteer from Colorado was arrested after he was found with two migrants in his car. According to the Border Patrol, the volunteer came across the migrants after they flagged him down for food and water while he was driving in Hidalgo County."
"We don't yet have complete information on the arrest," he said. "What we do know is that this individual was taken into custody, but that the charges were eventually dropped."
Hmm... Looks like a Minuteman violated his creed. He was driving around, was flagged down by immigrants who wanted food and water, pulled over, took them in, was arrested, and the charges were dropped.
Not the stinging condemnation I was looking for. But now I've been trapped. I said I'd change my position if Minutemen were arrested for their illegal actions, and this SOB pulled over to help people who flagged him down. Never mind the charges were dropped. He was arrested, and I was very clear in my earlier statement.
So, true to my word.
I totally condemn the Minutemen for their illegal actions.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amiton:
The intent was a gesture of civility, not my poor attempt at being an ass.
My sincere apologies. For some reason this thread in general has my blood pressure up (not to mention the fact that I'm bored to death because I've had no students for two days - testing - so all I've done is sit on the internet).
Quote:
At any rate, it was supposed to be a submission to contribute to the debate that was in the mainstream press. It illustrates some of the issues on both sides of the debate, so I had hoped to put it out here without being partial to one side or the other right now.
And it was an excellent submission, especially for me, since I feel it proved my point
. Keep up the submissions like that!------------------------------------------
"A revolution without dancing is no revolution at all." - V
Anyone wanting to continue a discussion off board is welcome to email me - check bio for details.
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"I seriously doubt, that having a gun helps avoiding trouble. I think having a gun, more often causes trouble, whatever the intention was..."
Well, you're not going to win any points with me for condemning gun ownership or the carrying of firearms.
Quoting Michael Moore isn't particularly helpful either. Some day you'll have to look up his investigative journalism technique. You know, such as chopping up and re-editing Charlton Heston's speeches to make it appear he is saying things at times and places he did not. The man is a propagandist. His sole redeeming quality is that his propaganda is opposed to administration propaganda, and so it creates a valuable 'balance of lies and half-truths' that let me know where the real truth is. (In the middle.)
I'm not ever going to convince someone who doesn't like firearms that firearms are a good thing. They will never believe that they are useful for anything but causing trouble and exacerbating crime.
A lot of people won't ever believe in the philosophy of remaining armed. Not until they or someone they love is being raped or murdered. In those moments of violence and pain, the victim would earnestly wish for one chance in ten to stop that pain and violation.
But their pain and violation must be accepted. Their rights to defend themselves must be refused. We know better. Disarming the lawful and condemning the use of firearms is the best way to safeguard the majority.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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I maybe a merchant mariner away from the problems in the U.S., but can anyone again answer that question posted.."what is the difference between neighborhood watch and the minuteman society"? If all each does is watch their neighborhoods what is the difference? desert or neighborhood, community, country. Have pitty for the illegal aliens, anyone ask the march organizers.. why not march on Mexico City.. after Mexico has a 25 billion dollar trade surplus, they are an oil producing country? If the golden rule of Mexico is he who owns the gold makes the rules.. well march in Mexico. Someone made a comment on the carrying of guns by the minutemen, why not? if you are watching and calling the border patrol for every sign of movement, you are a target. Tell you what.. move to a drug neighborhood, stand out side with a camera, video camera, cell phone and call the police everytime a transaction takes place.. can someone tell me what will happen.. yes the drug thugs will get you. It's the same here, approached by machetes, assault rifles and other weapsons.. I know, yeah.. that law, mentions several back.. make it illegal for anyone not law enforcement to be on the border.. yeah that sounds good.. huh.. no wait. that was tried in Berlin. remember the wall? yes a wall was built.. but manned by troops with machine guns, that shot first and asked questions later.. so which do you want, you have 11 million illegal undocumented people already here, and more attempting to come any way possible. what are you for, wall or no wall, open borders or no borders. I am not worried about jobs lost, many already have to NAFTA, CAFTA and out sourcing, believe me, I live in the Philippines with my wife, I see the expansion of U.S. businesses for cheap labor. Do you honestly think giving U.S. citizenship away so easily going to make a difference? Are these jobs "Americans" do not want are going to be filled or continue to be filled with newly made citizens? I don't think we are all stupid.. people are in these jobs, not by choice, you are in them because you shirk the law! pay taxes, yeah how, with an invalid social security number, forged license, if you buy groceries or other items, paying a sales tax does not qualify you for citizenship. We have to make tough choices, ellis island does not exsist anymore neither is the social expansion climate. Want to help their families fine.. but demonstrate against their government, change their country's economic and political atmosphere, show efforts on their part don't come here and try to make changes and force changes here. Go back and make those demands on Fox. I agree with the immigration changes.. place the national guard on the border, add the reserves too. I see Mexico threatening to take this before the World Court and the U.N. they must have nothing more on their minds.. then the welfare of their own people. I do not know anything about the minutemen other than what is shown on tv, but what I see are people taking action and that action may endanger themselves. I appreciate that at least someone is doing something about it. I guess that is wrong.. what is right.. lets see,, hire an undocumented alien, give him a job with below legal pay standards, higher hours of work, and I bet no overtime and no medial benefits.. prove me wrong anyone.. show me a business that follows the law with the hiring of illegals please. show me following the labor laws?
Merchantmarine 1
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If your neighbourhood watch schemes are tooled up citizen militias that travel the streets at night looking for crime, but obviously only ring the police and watch from a safe distance, obviously; nothing, they're vigilantes to.
Some how I doubt that's what your neighbourhood watch schemes are.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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Merchantmarine1,
This is in regards to the neighborhood watch comparison. To me, a better question is how are the Minutemen different from the Klan Border Watch that David Duke and others organized in the late seventies? Both are groups of people who are motivated more by a fear of "invasion" by hordes of brown people. Both are groups that were primarily interested in media exposure and whose leaders were hoping to use that exposure to jump start a political career. Both are groups whose members espouse idealogy that most sane Americans recognize as ignorant, hateful, and primarily motivated by fear. Suporters of the Minutemen try to gloss over the very disturbing beliefs of many of the members. Maybe in an effort to make their racial hate more mainstream. I'm not sure. What I am sure about is you can dress up a pig all you want but at the end of the day you still have a pig.
The question is, should we let our immigration debate be driven by racism? Or should we be more rational about the whole thing. Should we go after the people on the bottom? Or go after the corporations who have no interest in developing a more effective immigration policy.
Say our biggest problem right now is that we need to cross a raging river. One very successful method would be to find the largest tree we could and fell it to make a bridge. The Minuteman solution is to pick a blade of grass, wave it around for all to see and yell at the top of their lungs, "Look at me! Look at me! I help. I help."
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To Citizen, I suppose to you the Guardian Angels are vigilante's. This is not about the guiding principals of the organization, the founders beliefs or political goals. You have according to the Government 12 million undocumented illegal aliens in the U.S. I see those replied have not offered any proof that those businesses with undocumented aliens as employees are following the law inregards to their pay,hours of work and benefits. My family owns several ranches, grape ranches and deal with migrant workers... so I doubt alot here have that encounter behind them.. tell you something... the migrants now are not the same from Cesar Chavez.. that group won their citizenship left the field work its a new generation now and demanding the same. What everyone has forgotten and turned it political, the dilema has not changed and it is not new. Since Cesar Chavez the march for undocumented rights has been marching and sounding off for years and no one paid attention until NAFTA, CAFTA AND OUTSOURCING forced thousands back to the help wanted ads. I have the opportunity to travel due to my work as a merchant seaman, travel not as a tourist and see the real side of life. Mexico is not a 3rd world country, it is ruled by the rich and powerful elite, just legalized drugs and has adopted a plan to help push their lower class across our borders, making "our problem, not theirs." I hear from all critics they are here to help their starving families... WOW! SOUNDS LIKE A CASE FOR AMENISTY INTERNATIONAL. are these people saying their government (Mexico) is intentionally starving their lower poorer class. That is not hype.. just watched Larry King Live and the pro amensty supports all said the same thing.. "THE UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS ARE HERE FOR WORK WHICH SUPPORTS THEIR STARVING FAMILIES" (LARRY KING LIVE 5/12/06) MARCH ON MEXICO CITY AND AGAINST THIS ATTROCIETY IF THEY WANT CHANGE. ANYONE TELL ME WHY THEY CANNOT? I WOULD LIKE AN ANSWER AFTER ALL THEY ARE MEXICAN CITIZENS.. FIRST..
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Quote:When they first started that was exactly what they were. If they still are I don't know, I don't know enough about them. I suppose anyone who's actions you agree with can't possibly be Vigilante's.
Originally posted by Merchantmarine1:
To Citizen, I suppose to you the Guardian Angels are vigilante's.
Quote:You seem to have missed off the paragraphs where any of this proves that the Minutemen aren't vigilantes.
This is not about the guiding principals of the organization, the founders beliefs or political goals. You have according to the Government 12 million undocumented illegal aliens in the U.S. I see those replied have not offered any proof that those businesses with undocumented aliens as employees are following the law inregards to their pay,hours of work and benefits. My family owns several ranches, grape ranches and deal with migrant workers... so I doubt alot here have that encounter behind them.. tell you something... the migrants now are not the same from Cesar Chavez.. that group won their citizenship left the field work its a new generation now and demanding the same. What everyone has forgotten and turned it political, the dilema has not changed and it is not new. Since Cesar Chavez the march for undocumented rights has been marching and sounding off for years and no one paid attention until NAFTA, CAFTA AND OUTSOURCING forced thousands back to the help wanted ads. I have the opportunity to travel due to my work as a merchant seaman, travel not as a tourist and see the real side of life. Mexico is not a 3rd world country, it is ruled by the rich and powerful elite, just legalized drugs and has adopted a plan to help push their lower class across our borders, making "our problem, not theirs." I hear from all critics they are here to help their starving families... WOW! SOUNDS LIKE A CASE FOR AMENISTY INTERNATIONAL. are these people saying their government (Mexico) is intentionally starving their lower poorer class. That is not hype.. just watched Larry King Live and the pro amensty supports all said the same thing.. "THE UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS ARE HERE FOR WORK WHICH SUPPORTS THEIR STARVING FAMILIES" (LARRY KING LIVE 5/12/06) MARCH ON MEXICO CITY AND AGAINST THIS ATTROCIETY IF THEY WANT CHANGE. ANYONE TELL ME WHY THEY CANNOT? I WOULD LIKE AN ANSWER AFTER ALL THEY ARE MEXICAN CITIZENS.. FIRST..
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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Alot of the word Vigilante? Can anyone show me, I watch the cable news networks, ALL OF THEM, I have not seen a hanging, summary execution, accusation of murder? Did or has anyone seen such. Does anyone know the definition of Vigilante? doubtful, here is a history lesson, San Francisco 1850 to 1889 during those years more vigilante justice was dispensed by the citizens of San Francisco than any part of our country. (Fact) This is not a Charles Bronso flick, or a Geotz subway panic attack with a semi auto. Like I said.. my views are from watching the independant news programs, all I care about in my opinion is someone is taking their time without pay putting their lives on the line to stand on the border with bino's and a cell phone and call the authorities when aliens attempt to cross. I watched a CNN special with a report on the field with a special group of INS agents like SWAT they could not catch a group of 30, why, wrong place. We have 12 Million and counting inside and more to come.. I would worry less about a groups beliefs, and more on action. I do however believe that if these members are being threatend by illegal intruders into our country, the illegals are demonstrating their lack of regard for our laws and citizens of the United States. That clearly possess a clear and present danger not to citizens standing a watch on the border but to every citizen every where. Post the National Guard from California to Texas, add Colorado,Nevada,Oklahoma, Wyoming and Kansas as support. I would welcome the poor and disadvantaged but GET BACK TO MEXICO AND DEMONSTRATE IN MEXICO CITY FIRST ABOUT YOUR COUNTRY'S LACK OF SUPPORT FOR THE DELEMA OF THE POOR IN MEXICO. STOP PROTESTING IN OUR COUNTRY. Waive the mexican flag with honor in Mexico city as you protest against Fox and his social programs. Like I said.. no one will offer a reason why millions will take to our streets but never raise a protest sign in Mexico city. I remember a high speed chase involving illegals and the organge county sheriff back in the 90's, weaving, throwing objects at the police hitting other cars to cause accidents in trying to get away.. oh.. yes they were captured, roughed up.. Ask or answer this.. What would happen if this group tried this with Mexican Federal Policia and other mexican jursdictional police? WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WOULD HAPPEN. THESE ARE NOT STORIES MADE UP ITS A TWO WAY STREET IN MEXICO Yes police officials and officers are executed by drug and crime cartels.. petty criminals if caught, wish they were else where. Its not about that. Either make a stand or stand in line, sooner or later the influx of illegal immigrants will affect everyone even our lower class poverty line will be affected.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Merchantmarine1:
Does anyone know the definition of Vigilante?
Well you sure as hell don't.
Quote:
doubtful, here is a history lesson, San Francisco 1850 to 1889 during those years more vigilante justice was dispensed by the citizens of San Francisco than any part of our country. (Fact) This is not a Charles Bronso flick, or a Geotz subway panic attack with a semi auto.
History lesson: The meaning of vigilante has bugger all to do with San Francisco. (Fact) it comes originally from the Latin 'Vigil'. (Fact) the modern dictionary definition is along the lines of someone who takes the law into their own hands without government sanction.
So you see I don't need to drag up good ol' San Francisco lynchings, because although the groups that did that were vigilante groups a vigilante group doesn't have to do that in order to be a vigilante group.
Oh and nothing you said even goes an eigth of the way to refuting the vigilante accusation.
Quote:
I watched a CNN special with a report on the field with a special group of INS agents like SWAT they could not catch a group of 30, why, wrong place. We have 12 Million and counting inside and more to come.. I would worry less about a groups beliefs, and more on action. I do however believe that if these members are being threatend by illegal intruders into our country, the illegals are demonstrating their lack of regard for our laws and citizens of the United States. That clearly possess a clear and present danger not to citizens standing a watch on the border but to every citizen every where. Post the National Guard from California to Texas, add Colorado,Nevada,Oklahoma, Wyoming and Kansas as support. I would welcome the poor and disadvantaged but GET BACK TO MEXICO AND DEMONSTRATE IN MEXICO CITY FIRST ABOUT YOUR COUNTRY'S LACK OF SUPPORT FOR THE DELEMA OF THE POOR IN MEXICO. STOP PROTESTING IN OUR COUNTRY. Waive the mexican flag with honor in Mexico city as you protest against Fox and his social programs. Like I said.. no one will offer a reason why millions will take to our streets but never raise a protest sign in Mexico city. I remember a high speed chase involving illegals and the organge county sheriff back in the 90's, weaving, throwing objects at the police hitting other cars to cause accidents in trying to get away.. oh.. yes they were captured, roughed up.. Ask or answer this.. What would happen if this group tried this with Mexican Federal Policia and other mexican jursdictional police? WE KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WOULD HAPPEN. THESE ARE NOT STORIES MADE UP ITS A TWO WAY STREET IN MEXICO Yes police officials and officers are executed by drug and crime cartels.. petty criminals if caught, wish they were else where. Its not about that. Either make a stand or stand in line, sooner or later the influx of illegal immigrants will affect everyone even our lower class poverty line will be affected.
As I said before:
You seem to have missed off the paragraphs that show how any of this proves the Minutemen are not vigilantes.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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Citizen,
You obviously do not know or understand the meaning of vigilante anyone can quote a dictionary term. I do not need to submit any proof of any illegal actions or vigilante deemed retaliation. This is where you are wrong, I did not miss any paragraphs, after all, I watch the news and special field reports, I don't have to miss anything, I see their efforts and appreciate what each memeber is doing regardless if you do not. You have not responded to the accounts of the minuteman groups in California that and else where that have been threatend by illegals attempting to gain entry. I have not even seen a reply about the recent discovery of personal information on border agents, their families and address for targets of violence. What I see is someone whom for what ever reason has dislike or hatred for a group or any group that is trying to at least make some effort for their communities or states. You point out racial agenda's that have nothing to do with standing on the border with a cell phone and binoculars. I suggest you either stand at the border and make a difference or get out of the way or are you the type to just go ahead allow the 12 million (govt estimate) in give them citizenship and that will solve the problem. Did you see the rallies or did you participate in them I am trying to figure out which. You don't support neighborhood watch by criticizing their attempts or actions. If any illegals were executed by the minutemen I would agree. I suppose you do not believe that the marchers closing down businesses and attempting the same on our major cities is in no way vigilante? My suggestion spend more time in the real world at the front of this political and social hot spot and less in the front of the computer. You do not provide answers about the labor laws and illegal/undocumented workers in the country already. So in closing.. while you spout about some ridiiculius notions of racial or nazi beliefs.
Merchantmarine 1
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Quote:
Originally posted by Merchantmarine1:
Citizen,
You obviously do not know or understand the meaning of vigilante anyone can quote a dictionary term.
Which is how you learn the definition of something - by quoting a dictionary term. Just because someone isn't carrying a noose or a lead pipe and beating justice into someone doesn't mean they aren't vigilantes. It just means they don't fit into your understanding of what a vigilante is. "Death Wish" is vigilantism taken to the extreme.
Quote:
I do not need to submit any proof
You always need to submit proof in any argument if the facts are in dispute. You can say Juputer is made out of cheddar cheese, but it doesn't make it true until you can prove it.
Quote:
You have not responded to the accounts of the minuteman groups in California that and else where that have been threatend by illegals attempting to gain entry.
He may not have, but you haven't countered my argument for it, which you can read further back in this thread. If the Minuteman civilians weren't there, they wouldn't be threatened. The fact that they are putting themselves in harm's way without any specialized training and and acting in a manner that is outside legitimate governmental authority makes them vigilantes, and they bring it on themselves.
Quote:
What I see is someone whom for what ever reason has dislike or hatred for a group or any group that is trying to at least make some effort for their communities or states.
If they want to make an effort, they will petition their elected government agents for enacting a new solution; OR, they will join the police, border patrol, or military and help out that way. Until they do, they are acting outside the law and potentially hampering the work by legitimate border agents.
Quote:
You point out racial agenda's that have nothing to do with standing on the border with a cell phone and binoculars.
Those racial agendas have everything to do with it. How would you feel if a Nazi, or a Klansman, or a radical Islamist stood up and said that they represented America, and you? Would you let that stand? If an orgaization that is supposedly the 'face of America standing up for itself' is composed of hate criminals, then they DO need to get out of the way and crawl back under whatever rock they slithered from beneath.
Quote:
I suggest you either stand at the border and make a difference or get out of the way or are you the type to just go ahead allow the 12 million (govt estimate) in give them citizenship and that will solve the problem.
As I pointed out in a previous post, you're making huge fallacies here. "Idiots on the border or let everyone in" are not our only choices. Spending more money on trained personnel, using Guardsmen, etc. are all viable options. Not supporting the Minutemen DOES NOT EQUAL supporting millions of illegal immigrants.
Quote:
You don't support neighborhood watch by criticizing their attempts or actions.
See an earlier thread by me in which I said just that. I'll argue with you on that issue; I don't like Neighborhood Watch, either.
Quote:Is that what it would take? Executiion? Or if it came to torture, would you stop there? Or what if the Minutemen interfered with a joint operation by the American or Mexican governments? Where does it stop? Or is it no harm no foul as long as no one dies?
If any illegals were executed by the minutemen I would agree.
Quote:
I suppose you do not believe that the marchers closing down businesses and attempting the same on our major cities is in no way vigilante?
Not according to the First Amendment. You do understand the right of Americans to peacably assemble, don't you?
Quote:
My suggestion spend more time in the real world at the front of this political and social hot spot and less in the front of the computer. ... while you spout about some ridiiculius notions of racial or nazi beliefs.
Way to personally attack Citizen. But if you want to
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Quote:What's that sound? It's a rushing kind of whooshing sound. Oh it's stopped now, after a kind of booming banging sound. I guess it must be your credibility, dropping.
Originally posted by Merchantmarine1:
You obviously do not know or understand the meaning of vigilante anyone can quote a dictionary term.
No, I understand the term vigilante, I just don't live in lala land (i.e. your head) where your meaning is correct and the meaning agreed upon by the rest of the Human race is not.
Quote:Right. You watch the news well done. I watch the news; I read it too, so I guess I've got one up on you, huh.
This is where you are wrong, I did not miss any paragraphs, after all, I watch the news and special field reports, I don't have to miss anything, I see their efforts and appreciate what each memeber is doing regardless if you do not.
Quote:I don't remember you bringing it up...
You have not responded to the accounts of the minuteman groups in California that and else where that have been threatend by illegals attempting to gain entry.
I just checked: you didn't. But anyway you want me to address the issues you haven't brought up when you can't address the ones I have, okay, I have no problem being the bigger man:
If they weren't taking the law in to their own hands they wouldn’t be in the firing line.
So you going to address the issue of Minutemen violently attacking peaceful demonstrators, I mean you watch all the news, you must have heard about it?
Quote:I live in Britain, we have duly appointed and trained law enforcement agencies over here. If you don't you really need to look at your government before anywhere else, but then I thought the US did have law enforcement agencies. Maybe I'm wrong; maybe the US isn't a civilised nation.
I suggest you either stand at the border and make a difference or get out of the way or are you the type to just go ahead allow the 12 million (govt estimate) in give them citizenship and that will solve the problem. Did you see the rallies or did you participate in them I am trying to figure out which.
Now did you see the rallies or did you participate in them or did someone tell you about them, I think I've worked out which.
Quote:Well at least we know where you stand. Just to the right of the KKK it would seem.
If any illegals were executed by the minutemen I would agree.
Quote:As I said I don't subscribe to your personal definition. Taking a stab in the dark, a vigilante is someone who you don't like, right? Anyway since they weren't taking the law into their own hands (marching isn't law enforcement
I suppose you do not believe that the marchers closing down businesses and attempting the same on our major cities is in no way vigilante?
) no, whatever else they are, they’re not vigilantes. But then I'm using the accepted definition of vigilante, I understand you don't believe it unless you decide its right.Quote:Maybe I could put the world to rights while serving in the merchant navy thousands of miles away, while sitting in front of someone elses computer. That would make the two of us equal at least, eh.
My suggestion spend more time in the real world at the front of this political and social hot spot and less in the front of the computer.
Quote:Neither have you. Oh was murdering illegal immigrants your suggestion? Sorry I thought you were joking didn't think someone would seriously make such an openly fascist statement like that.
You do not provide answers about the labor laws and illegal/undocumented workers in the country already.
Quote:Well if the jack boot fits...
So in closing.. while you spout about some ridiiculius notions of racial or nazi beliefs.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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7 percent, you hate neighborhood watch, great hope your little neighborhood is the safest around. You say I offer no solutions, in fact I have, I support any means necessary to enforce the laws of my country. If using the National Guard to patrol the border, transport exsisting illegals captured in other states fine. You hate the minutemen movement YOUR OPINION. Oh.. I did support family and friends movements even while abroad.. funding for petitions and marches.. I support investigations into business practices of hiring undocumented aliens, and the support severing business ties with any business that supports the marches. Like I said, no answers WHY NOT MARCH IN MEXICO CITY FOR CHANGES IN THEIR COUNTRIES SOCIAL PROGRAMS. For citizen, coming from Britain, one of the toughest immigration regulators of Europe, you spout against U.S. policies, if 12 million undocumented entered the U.K. illegally I do not think you would be so supportive. I do have friends in U.K., what is it, for citizenship? 1 year stay in the U.K. and you are not eligible for any medical or employment? You are basically on your own without any government support or assistance. British citizenship is what EARNED! Murdering Millions of immigrants? where did that come from.. You need to come to America or get educated on the subject matter before entering this conversation. The problem originates in Mexico not in the U.S., and again you spout what nazi themes and you know nothing of the problem on our border. Yes we have a police force and border patrols and clearly that is not enough. I see nothing wrong with citizens volunteering their time to stand a watch and report crimes. If you do then I suggest March for illegals and hire them for your business.. oh.. you spout first amendment rights? you can if you can prove 100 percent if all the marchers were citizens of the U.S. when already even the organizers have said in News interviews majority was undocumented immigrants.. and THEY HAVE ALREADY STATED ON NUMEROUS PROGRAMS THE TERM ILLEGAL ALIENS IS RACIST, BUT PROPER TERM IMMIGRANT just. These are all excuses for those who want everything and not earn it. Its easy to march, sneak across borders and hide. You want action wait until the National Guard starts patrols, wait until the marchers do not get the ammnesty they want. Their efforst are not going to motivate our government. In England ask this, would your government and the people of England tolerate such social disrespect as shown by the marchers (waiving their countries flags)? I hope you are honest. And finally to both 7 percent and Citizen, you have not dismantled any of my arguments, you dislike the actions of groups making a stand.. but you also say nothing about people marching voicing and waiving their own countries flags and still demand rights and citizenship.. ANSWER THIS.. WHAT IS WRONG IS STANDING IN LINE, FILING THE PAPERS AND FOLLOWING THE LAW? AND this I truly do not understand? in regards to the violence encountered? what was said.. stay out of the firing line? ARE THE BOTH OF YOU SAYING THAT THE ILLEGALS ENTERING MY COUNTRY ARE DOING SO UNDER FORCE OF ARMS? I WONDER IF THAT WOULD BE ALLOWED IN THE U.K. I WONDER IF YOUR GOVERNMENT WOULD ALLOW THE THREATS BY ILLEGAL UNDOCUMENTED PERSONS TOWARDS YOUR CITIZENS? ANSWER THAT? OH. WHAT ARE YOU DOING AND WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTIONS? COMING FROM THE U.K.?
I DID LIKE THE JACK BOOT THEME.. WAS THAT AT YOUR ADORABLE PRINCES PARTY? AND HIS DELIGHTFUL NAZI UNIFORM?
JUST TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ABOUT THIS WIDELY USED TERM VIGILANTE.. IN THE U.S. CITIZENS can make CITIZEN ARRESTS, each state has a statue allowing their citizens to act within reason to stop a crime. how ever deadly force is not justified in this case since the citizen is not in a law enforcment capacity. However, in the states affected by the influx of illegal aliens, California has strict gun control laws, carrying in public is against the law, Arizona, Texas and New Mexico have laws allowing the carrying of firearms but the citizen
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PirateMarine, MerchantNews(what can I say you sound just like him)MerchantMarine:
So no answers on the Minutemen are vigilantes issue then, no? Let me check. No, no answer, I guess you agree, why else would you go attacking the British royal family when we're talking about the Minutemen?
Hokay, lets take this one bit of ignorant bullshit at a time shall we:
Quote:Actually we don't have the toughest immigration regulations in Europe, Immigrants by pass just about every other European nation for just that reason. Where did you hear that? Oh no wait a minute, you made it up, that's right
Originally posted the MerchantMarine:
For citizen, coming from Britain, one of the toughest immigration regulators of Europe, you spout against U.S. policies, if 12 million undocumented entered the U.K. illegally I do not think you would be so supportive.
.Quote:I have friends on Mars, no Europa, no the moon...
I do have friends in U.K., what is it, for citizenship?
Quote:Repeat after me: Just because you made it up doesn't make it so.
1 year stay in the U.K. and you are not eligible for any medical or employment? You are basically on your own without any government support or assistance.
Quote:No I didn't say anything about murdering illegals. I believe that was you.
Murdering Millions of immigrants? where did that come from.. You need to come to America or get educated on the subject matter before entering this conversation.
Yep I checked it was you, right here:
Quote:Now, get educated on the subject, well since the only person who has said things that are blatantly wrong here is you, I'd have to agree, YOU do need to educate yourself on the subject before joining in on the conversation
If any illegals were executed by the minutemen I would agree.
.Quote:No, again the person who brought up the Nazi's was actually you
The problem originates in Mexico not in the U.S., and again you spout what nazi themes and you know nothing of the problem on our border.
.Quote:So, like I said you take that up with the government, you make them do something about it. Or you start a vigilante group. So are you getting around to explaining how the Minutemen aren't vigilantes, you know ever. It's been four posts now and you still haven't managed it.
Yes we have a police force and border patrols and clearly that is not enough.
Quote:I didn't mention the first amendment. As for the rest I speak English, could you please try and do the same?
If you do then I suggest March for illegals and hire them for your business.. oh.. you spout first amendment rights? you can if you can prove 100 percent if all the marchers were citizens of the U.S. when already even the organizers have said in News interviews majority was undocumented immigrants.. and THEY HAVE ALREADY STATED ON NUMEROUS PROGRAMS THE TERM ILLEGAL ALIENS IS RACIST, BUT PROPER TERM IMMIGRANT just.
Oh and they’re called paragraphs, for god sake use them.
Quote:Seems kind of reminiscent of things said by the KKK and (Might as well say it if your going to keep accusing me of it) Nazis. Just saying.
These are all excuses for those who want everything and not earn it.
Quote:Yes they would, and do on a daily basis. If you knew anything about the UK you'd probably know that.
In England ask this, would your government and the people of England tolerate such social disrespect as shown by the marchers (waiving their countries flags)? I hope you are honest.
Quote:Nothing at all, it's just a pity the minutemen can't do this, you know lobby the government, fill out the correct forms. I guess they'd rather play soldiers.
WHAT IS WRONG IS STANDING IN LINE, FILING THE PAPERS AND FOLLOWING THE LAW?
Quote:
AND this I truly do not understand? in regards to the violence encountered? what was said.. stay out of the firing line? ARE THE BOTH OF YOU SAYING THAT THE ILLEGALS ENTERING MY COUNNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Citizen,
you are incredible? you can put all that together. WOW, coming from the U.K. you know our border problems and solutions? Oh, yes I forgot, you are the expert, Lets not forget the rest of the world watched how your government handled Ireland and anyone SUSPECTED of being in membership of the IRA or supporting the IRA. Your country sent troops tanks and even your special forces.. How many innocent lives lost and how many inprisoned? and you have the guts to call the minuteman border watch Nazis or even resemble them to KKK? I see your tiny world, leave the problems to the authorities and government. Not here pal. we have 12 Million undocumented. how many in the U.K.? you never answered. I know from collegues whom are citizens of France, Germany and from Ireland, they have no nice choice words for the U.K. and I wonder why? Stay to the point if you understand English.. the topic is "US Border Patrol gives Minutemen locations to Mexican Gov't" get it? Nothing about vigilantes? and no MORON there was no mention of murdering millions? you made the accusation that Citizens of the U.S. sitting on our border excercising their rights as citizens doing their civic duty, which you CLEARLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT. I said.. "IF THEY EXECUTED ANYONE I WOULD AGREE.." WHAT DOES THAT MEAN.. OVER HERE A VIGILANTE IN OUR HISTORY.. NOT U.K. THAT WAS DISMANTLED IN 1787 AFTER YOUR DEFEAT... VIGILANTES HERE IN U.S. HAVE BEEN VIOLENT.. AND MURDEROUS.. THAT I DISAGREE WITH.. YOU HAVE NOT SHOWN ANY EVIDENCE OF VIOLENT ATTACKS ON OUR BORDERS STEMMING FROM THE MINUTEMEN GROUPS. AND IF YOU UNDERSTAND ENGLISH YOU MUST WATCH SOMETHING OTHER THAN BBC.. OR TRY TOO NO NEWS PROGRAM EITHER CABLE OR FREE TV HERE IN AMERICA HAS EVER RAISED ANY ISSUES AGAINST THE MINUTEMEN ON THE BORDER. INFACT JUST THE OPPOSITE. THERE IS OUTRAGE OVER THE RELEASE OF INFORMATION OF THEIR LOCATIONS.. SO GET THE HINT. Like I said.. coming from a country with an excellent track record in IRELAND you are the expert.
Merchantmarine1
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Quote:
Originally posted by Merchantmarine1:
Citizen,
you are incredible? you can put all that together. WOW, coming from the U.K. you know our border problems and solutions? Oh, yes I forgot, you are the expert, Lets not forget the rest of the world watched how your government handled Ireland and anyone SUSPECTED of being in membership of the IRA or supporting the IRA. Your country sent troops tanks and even your special forces.. How many innocent lives lost and how many inprisoned? and you have the guts to call the minuteman border watch Nazis or even resemble them to KKK? I see your tiny world, leave the problems to the authorities and government. Not here pal. we have 12 Million undocumented. how many in the U.K.? you never answered. I know from collegues whom are citizens of France, Germany and from Ireland, they have no nice choice words for the U.K. and I wonder why? Stay to the point if you understand English.. the topic is "US Border Patrol gives Minutemen locations to Mexican Gov't" get it? Nothing about vigilantes? and no MORON there was no mention of murdering millions? you made the accusation that Citizens of the U.S. sitting on our border excercising their rights as citizens doing their civic duty, which you CLEARLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT. I said.. "IF THEY EXECUTED ANYONE I WOULD AGREE.." WHAT DOES THAT MEAN.. OVER HERE A VIGILANTE IN OUR HISTORY.. NOT U.K. THAT WAS DISMANTLED IN 1787 AFTER YOUR DEFEAT... VIGILANTES HERE IN U.S. HAVE BEEN VIOLENT.. AND MURDEROUS.. THAT I DISAGREE WITH.. YOU HAVE NOT SHOWN ANY EVIDENCE OF VIOLENT ATTACKS ON OUR BORDERS STEMMING FROM THE MINUTEMEN GROUPS. AND IF YOU UNDERSTAND ENGLISH YOU MUST WATCH SOMETHING OTHER THAN BBC.. OR TRY TOO NO NEWS PROGRAM EITHER CABLE OR FREE TV HERE IN AMERICA HAS EVER RAISED ANY ISSUES AGAINST THE MINUTEMEN ON THE BORDER. INFACT JUST THE OPPOSITE. THERE IS OUTRAGE OVER THE RELEASE OF INFORMATION OF THEIR LOCATIONS.. SO GET THE HINT. Like I said.. coming from a country with an excellent track record in IRELAND you are the expert.
Merchantmarine1
Bored now. Your idiocy, ignorance and bigotry were funny at first, and then it was tedious, now it's just boring. There's a time and a place for you and it is called Deliverance.
So how about you stop talking about things you know nothing about (in other words, just stop talking), and go back to rocking back and forth dribbling while playing with your crayons.
It's funny how you accuse me of going off topic, when I'm talking about the minutemen and you’re off on a tangent about Northern Ireland (another situation you know nothing about, not much of a surprise there). But if you want to go off on tangents lets weigh in on the US's excellent track record in Cuba, Mexico, Chile, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, does that sound like a fun game, Herr MerchantNews?
It's even funnier that you insinuate I can't know what I'm talking about being from the UK when you spend all you time on a ship off in the middle of nowhere. So what's your solution el-red-necko? Apart from lynching all them thar varmints, I mean?
So, on topic: The Minutemen are vigilantes.
Off topic: Ignorant bullshit about Northern Ireland.
Geddit now moose brain? I mean hell; you’d actually lose a battle of wits with a stuffed Iguana. Did you have to practice to be as big a wanker as you are, or does it come naturally?
So are you going to support any claim you've made yet? No, okay didn't think so.
Are you going to get around to explaining how anything you've posted in your last five posts has any relevance to this thread, or in anyway explains how the Minutemen (people who by your own admission are taking the law into their own hands) aren't vigilantes (people who take the law into their own hands, in the accepted definition, not the one in PirateMarines tiny little mind)? No, okay didn't think so.
Just for the record I'd trust the BBC before I'd trust Hate Group monthly/Fox news, which are obviously your favorite news sources.
Your debating skills are actually wor
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Jesus F-ing Christ, Merchantmarine! Open your F-in' ears (or, ya know, your eyes in this case...)! By the simple definition of 'vigilante', the Minutemen are Vigilantes! Why you take offense to that term, I have no idea. A vigilante can be a good or a bad thing, depending on the situation! GET OVER IT!!!! What you should be debating is whether they are a good thing or not in this situation, not arguing semantics (especially where you are clearly contradicted by the freaking dictionary!)
Long story short: Stop worrying about whether they're vigilantes or not (because they are). Worry about whether they are right or wrong.
You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.
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REAVERMAN,
In this particular blog do you honestly think I care about the trival notions that a group of people standing in the middle of the desert between the U.S. and Mexico are or are not vigilantes? I love the argument. What I love the most is the lost ideals and reality. I do not live in the U.S. anymore, I do not think I could tolerate what I have seen on the satillite news programs. But many of you do, and what I see are in a few months you are going to welcome 12 million or more new citizens, like it or not. It will be impossible to verify each individual as to their time line entry and we should know that. Even if there are accurate records of some arrests others are not. Add lawyers to the scenerio and tax payers will be forking out millions in legal fees for many years. In short, I do not care about the border situation, you have 11000 border patrol agents, and 12 million already in country. The social welfare program needs to increase to handle the new citizens, your schools need to expand to handle their children and the job market had better prepare for the increase in job needs. Now as for jobs, does anyone really believe any of the illegal or undocumented workers would return to their underpaid over worked no overtime job after becoming a U.S. citizen? Please be honest. These folks are hiding and doing what they can, now again in a few months they will not have too.. Like the marches have said."WE MARCH TODAY, TOMORROW WE VOTE." That is 12 million new voters give or take. Political capitol for which ever party waives them in first. The real point is, Do we care if the Border Patrol gives Minutemen locations to the Mexican Gov't? Clearly we do not. Therefore inclosing, our new sensus will now read 2006 population increase 12 million and you can bet before the law signs the biggest rush since the Oklahoma land rush will be on.
Merchantmarine1
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Quote:Let me get this straight, you've been bitching and moaning saying they aren't vigilantes because the UK had troops in Ireland once but you don't care whether they are or not. Hmm I guess that would make you a Troll.
Originally posted by Merchantmarine1:
In this particular blog do you honestly think I care about the trival notions that a group of people standing in the middle of the desert between the U.S. and Mexico are or are not vigilantes?
Quote:So your pissed off that they don't want to be your slave. They're irrational aren't they, them crazy illegals thinking their real people and all, NAIL 'EM UP! NAIL SOME SENSE INTO 'EM!
Now as for jobs, does anyone really believe any of the illegal or undocumented workers would return to their underpaid over worked no overtime job after becoming a U.S. citizen?
Hats off to you Marine, you make even less sense than PirateNews does.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.
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