Male and Female Imponderables--Post-Resurrection

POSTED BY: Tristan
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 12:56
VIEWED: 21033
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TRISTAN

Thursday, June 8, 2006 8:32 PM

Continue, my fine friends!

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NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, June 8, 2006 8:38 PM

Big question. I know what I like about women, But I can't understand what women like about men. My main thing is the physical aspect. With women, no matter if I am attracted to them or not, I always have loved the many curves and the softness a woman is graced with. Just curious. Side note. I could never be gay, just for that fact. That and I cannot even brush my teeth withot gagging. What attracts women to the male form?

Seryn: I have no problem with that.

Jayne: I was gonna get me an ear too.

SAMEERTIA

Thursday, June 8, 2006 8:46 PM

Oh... that's tough.
It's ummmm.
Men are just so ummm masculine! They have a manly smell, and are all muscley. I love it when a guy sweeps me into a hug and his arms are all strong around me.

I guess it's hard to explain. It's like trying to explain an attraction to women to a straight woman.

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Thursday, June 8, 2006 8:49 PM

It's kinda hard to put into words but ... there's just something about the shape of a guy. Something ... solid. And I mean all of him, not just the occasionally solid bit. Maybe it's because I tend to go for the bulkier type rather than the slender ones (In Buffy terms I'm a Xander-lover, not a Spike-lover), but there's something about a nice chest and good, strong arms that's all kinds of pleasin'.

Could I ever be gay? Meh. Maybe. I really enjoyed Willow and Tara's relationship on Buffy, where lots of women I know couldn't bear to watch them kiss. But beautiful as Amber and Aly are, I'd definately be chasing Nicky!

Desktop Hippie: at one with the 'verse

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, June 8, 2006 8:50 PM

Whoa.
Good explaiation.

Jayne: I was gonna get me an ear too.

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, June 8, 2006 8:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:
That and I cannot even brush my teeth withot gagging.

bwah!! good one!

I tell you, I looove the check/jaw/neck/throat of a man. It's pretty lines to look at on a woman, but on a man... well...

Let's just say Mal making out with Nandi, and the lighting on his neck (right before they cut to the sex scene) makes my mouth water. I requested mphillips to draw that, but never heard back.

Maybe it's an appreciation for something different? Woman are wonderful to hug, and I've kissed a woman and it was nice and soft, but men are just harder - and I'm not just talking about the obvious thing. There's a solidness in a man that's nice to hold. Or be held by.

Going home now to jog in the cold rain, followed by a cold shower.

Then maybe I'll watch HoG and have another cold shower. Didn't I order that toy yet? Damn.

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, June 8, 2006 8:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
It's kinda hard to put into words but ... there's just something about the shape of a guy. Something ... solid. And I mean all of him, not just the occasionally solid bit.

Ha! I wrote the same thing before I saw your post!! It's so the truth!

But I do like a slimmer solid rather than bulky.

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Thursday, June 8, 2006 9:03 PM

Yup, it's the truth! We like our men solid

And yes, I know most people go for the slim instead of bulky. Sometimes I do too, and the bodybuilder look does nothing for me. But ... I like a guy with a bit of shape to him. It makes him all the more solid.

And a cheeky smile gets me every single time. I just can't resist it!

Desktop Hippie: at one with the 'verse

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, June 8, 2006 9:09 PM

How about man ass. That is another reason for my hetero status. I was recently commended on my backside from someone i'd known for years. Though I enjoy my own rear, I can't understand understand how anyone else could. Who enjoys man ass?

Jayne: I was gonna get me an ear too.

TRISTAN

Thursday, June 8, 2006 9:11 PM

Solid...alright, I can accept that. How about slightly "fluffy"? Do you all have a problem with a bit of extra weight? I have about an average height/weight for my age, body type, etc, but I still feel like I have a softness about my middle that I wish would go away. Is that a turn-off for females? I am not a bodybuilder by any means, but I am an armorer and fighter, so I have solid arms and defined legs, but I am not cut. Do you prefer a male's strength to be overt, or are you satisfied that he can literally sweep you off your feet without looking like it?

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NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, June 8, 2006 9:20 PM

I have to concur with TRISATAN's request for information. I still have the remnants of my former life, (Big arms and shoulders, Defined calves and thighs, but the same nagging middle). Though, having the softer middle sure helps absorb a bit of shock to armor (kevlar),or otherwise. Just curious as is TRISTAN.

Jayne: I was gonna get me an ear too.

LITTLEALBATROSS29

Thursday, June 8, 2006 9:24 PM

I'm new to the conversation, but please allow me to jump in.
My husband is very similar to your description. He's tall & looks thin but he's actually quite strong & it's really nice to be held in strong arms .Theres a safety & comfort in that,at least for me.

That being said I usually prefer a tall man ,whatever the build ,because for me there's something about men that says they must be 6 feet or over.

Bryce
*******************************************

I swallowed a bug.

LIGHTMEDARK

Thursday, June 8, 2006 9:26 PM

Two out of the three girlfriends I've had (also the only people I've ever slept with) have said there is nothing attractive about a man's body whatsoever, haha...both of them did say the strength/dominance was where the attraction lay.

TRISTAN

Thursday, June 8, 2006 9:30 PM

Welcome, LittleAlbatross29! Always good luck to have one...until some idiot kills them!

Thanks for the comment. Please feel free to hang around...these threads can get quite interestin'!

LMD, I may have to agree with you on that one...although I have been called pretty on ocassion ...I do spend some time looking in the mirror (not vain, I promise) thinking "what the hell does she see in this?!?"

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LITTLEALBATROSS29

Thursday, June 8, 2006 9:43 PM

Tristan,
thanks for the welcome. I'll look out for any shots.Wouldn't want to hang around anyones neck & bring zombies or anything.Not yet anyway.

LMD-
I think there are some very beautiful men.
Johnny Depp for instance. I could stare at him for hours.
Oh, and there's Nathan , him I could stare at for a lifetime.
But the naked male form can be very fuuny.

Bryce
********************************************

I swallowed a bug.

MSG

Thursday, June 8, 2006 9:46 PM

OK I have to agree with the power/aggression thing. It's why so many women are attracted to Jayne even though he's definitely not husband material... It's the swept away combined with the ability to overwhelm. Controlled agression for the purpose of pleasure is quite the turn on ( well for most women) and a guy with strong arms and broad chest ok I am now distracting myself ...as for butt I refer you to Mal's ass

You're only young once, but you can be immature any time!

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, June 8, 2006 9:52 PM

About that whole dominace thing... I see it now. (having a Total Recall moment). Especially in alot of the training situations I'd been in, (Instructor and student) where the women I work with react strangely to touch. I may experiment with that this weekend.
TRISTAN: I have a date with Ms. Incredible and her son. Don't know if I told you or not. I MAY SAY IT A FEW MORE TIMES TODAY JUST FOR GOOD MEASURE.

Jayne: I was gonna get me an ear too.

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, June 8, 2006 9:55 PM

Yeah, but that doesn't explain the man crush I have on our captain either. (kidding)

Jayne: I was gonna get me an ear too.

TRISTAN

Thursday, June 8, 2006 9:56 PM

NVGhostrider, shiny!
Let me (or us) know how it goes! How old is the son, and what are the plans, if you don't mind me asking? (Can I hijack my own thread to temporarily change the subject? Am I truly hijacking if I am the architect of the thread? Am I a lion? Sorry...way off on tangents...only have about ten minutes left of work and my mind left early).

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LIGHTMEDARK

Thursday, June 8, 2006 9:56 PM

Oh, I agree, and being in no way bi-interested, I find several men to be lookers. It's just that, aside from the face, around half the chicks I talk to say there is no visual attraction.

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, June 8, 2006 10:04 PM

He's nine. A great kid who was able to tell me in detail the particulars of Venom/Eddie Brock (He likes Spiderman, but Venom is much cooler. In basically his own words.) We are headed to the Stillwater Mtns, (see photo on myspace), for the day. I have a few points of interest to visit and some medicine to look for. She was very excited when I asked them to go with me. Another one of those folk who loves the outdoors. Not to make future plans and the like, but I see a Firefly viewing for them in the future.

Jayne: I was gonna get me an ear too.

LITTLEALBATROSS29

Thursday, June 8, 2006 10:17 PM

I'd like to wish you good luck on your date.I think it's shiny that you included her son.

Bryce
*********************************************

I swallowed a bug.

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, June 8, 2006 10:24 PM

I'd known them for a while, him shorter obviously. They are going through some crap now, (she finally left his dad), and iI think it will take off that edge from when its just her and I. Besides, he's a cool kid and it ain't hard to hang out with him. Someone at home mentioned scoring points and the like. I don't care about that stuff. Anyone who thinks like that should be forced to forfeit their nuts. Like I said before: Benchmade. Don't leave home without it.

Jayne: I was gonna get me an ear too.

MSG

Thursday, June 8, 2006 10:28 PM

Yeah NV Must say strong guy in a pin down situation when you trust him will definitely get the juices going big time...just remember to wear protective gear Grin

You're only young once, but you can be immature any time!

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, June 8, 2006 10:36 PM

Gosh, never looked at it like that. You know you're good when you can make a dark man blush!

Jayne: I was gonna get me an ear too.

SAMEERTIA

Thursday, June 8, 2006 11:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by msg:
Yeah NV Must say strong guy in a pin down situation when you trust him will definitely get the juices going big time...just remember to wear protective gear Grin

YUP! What msg said!

But to allay the fears of those gents who no longer look like they did at 22, GUESS WHAT?
We aren't 22 anymore, either. And honestly, while we may drool over Brad Pitt and Johnny Depp, it's the PERSON who we love, not what they look like!

What attracts me physically, (tall dark and handsome) and who I've dated, aren't the same thing. Manitou is pretty fit, getting that tummy y'all are talking about, but he could put on thirty pounds and I would still be attracted to him.

I think what really makes a difference is when my partner is happy with their own body. If they are don't like their body, or how they look, they tend to move with less confidence- and in the bedroom, confidence means ALOT.

Okay, now, the BUTT QUESTION-
Call me a bad girl and spank me with a spoon, but I LOVE a good firm butt! When I was doing rodeo, I loved loved loved the Wrangler butt. (Still do, just not the wrangler attitude). I love to reach around and grab a handful of butt when we're making love.

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, June 8, 2006 11:42 PM

Dang, makes me want to go get some spurs for... yet again, you know the rest. I would just like to say that I am very happy right now. One of my co-workers just confirmed the shinyness of Ms. Incredible. Can't stop smiling. Must stop, everyone looking at me funny. Can't stop smiling.
Welp, end of the day. Goodnight BROWNCOATS.

Jayne: I was gonna get me an ear too.

COPILOT

Friday, June 9, 2006 12:47 AM

annnoyance #156,000 why am I supposed to feel bad because I like sex? Sometimes I wish I were born male just because of this little factoid.

An I carried such a torch.......For the Dark Lord

COPILOT

Friday, June 9, 2006 12:47 AM

annnoyance #156,000 why am I supposed to feel bad because I like sex? Sometimes I wish I were born male just because of this little factoid.

An I carried such a torch.......For the Dark Lord

SERYN

Friday, June 9, 2006 8:14 AM

outmoded social mores - tradition is always the hardest thing to get rid of. I could go on but it would get boring.

Lets instead talk about what makes men attractive.

I'm all giddy just thinkin' about it
Frst of all yes, arms, definetly, the way the muscles sit firm under the softer skin, then elegant lines to the wrist and out to the angles of the hands, and the ncek, the hollow under the chin before the adams apple, and the muscles either side of that little dip of the collar bones, the jaw line and just behind the ears where the hair falls away, the shoulders. then the way the back tapers in to slim hips. And the pronounced curves and angles of the thighs and legs. I personally love big (crooked) noses and hands and feet (i'm a strange one though)

I can never NEVER understand women who say they think men are ugly naked.
Bah, they wouldn't know a good thing if it walked up and flashed them.

I love goofyness and the way their thinking is so refreshingly simple compared to women who just tie themselves in knots constantly. I also love how passionate and stubborn they can be.

Ok, so the little guy may have been sculpted with more enthusiasm than style, but everything else is just perfect - even with a bit of a paunch or a saggy butt. (still grabbable! )

Bodybuilder types I just find look mutated. Christian Bale in American Psycho is probably my limit, Nathan is fantsy perfection. But IRL I like real men, I've dated tall, short, solid, skinny, whatever.

Basically, i'm agreeing with everything thats been said before. Big thumbs up from me.

But one thing guys - SOCKS OFF!!!!!

nothing is less sexy than a naked guy still wearing his socks (to look at, when there are other things going on it's pretty much irrelevent) but just for us? Take them off first.

And Ghostrider! You are fabulous, my sister has a young kid, and to find someone who would take the time to get to know the two of them together is her absolute dream (I don't even think she'd mind if they were point scoring) but kudos to you.

Plus, if you ever want to sweet talk her, let her know how you refer to her here.

(EDITED - to try and slim down the waffle)
(RE-EDITED - to put all the poetical descriptions back in for Mal4prez)

**********************************************************
Hodgins: Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
FozzieWash, You know what I always say: sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!
KermieMal, I never Know what the heck you're talking about.
FozzieWash, Hey, look! They're sending us free lumber!
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, June 9, 2006 8:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SameErtia:

while we may drool over Brad Pitt and Johnny Depp, it's the PERSON who we love, not what they look like!

What attracts me physically, (tall dark and handsome) and who I've dated, aren't the same thing. Manitou is pretty fit, getting that tummy y'all are talking about, but he could put on thirty pounds and I would still be attracted to him.

I think what really makes a difference is when my partner is happy with their own body. If they are don't like their body, or how they look, they tend to move with less confidence- and in the bedroom, confidence means ALOT.

I'm gonna agree here, 100%
It's always the person I'm really attracted to, which might be part of why I don't care what gender they are. Obviously I have the natural "swing" but in terms of attraction... Well actually I might just be talking rubbish because nothing is more beautiful to me than a naked woman. But still, I like the person more than the body. I guess that's my point.
In terms of what is attractive about a man; I like the way a man feels. Much as I love woman as well, they're harder to hold with all the boobage in the way. I can just press against a man, it's nice. And yes, I like a bit of softness; makes a good pillow. In terms of looks and attraction, I'm a face girl, and a bearing girl. Someone who bears themself well is very attractive. I like a man's arms, too. Something about the way they're shaped. And butts... oh definitely. That's another one with carry-over. Love all butts. I refer you to both Mal and Zoe. Whew, no one has a butt quite like Gina! As Wash says "Right where her legs meet her back"... That and above it, of course. She is gorgeous.
Sorry, got off the topic.
But really, is there that much of a difference in butts between the genders? I mean, women have wider hips for obvious reasons, but it's still the same muscle. And it's sexy. It says "I can move around effectively. I'm a functioning person. And I have strength for thrusting!" In the case of women it can also say "I can bear children well."

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PHOENIXROSE

Friday, June 9, 2006 8:52 AM

So I got all caught up on the last thread, and I wanna know where to find this "support group" of men who appreciate, respect, and love women!
Preferably unattached men in my part of the 'verse...

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DESKTOPHIPPIE

Friday, June 9, 2006 9:06 AM

Me too on the but! I love a nice bum on a guy. Something to look at, something to nibble and something to grab on to all in one

As for the dominance thing ... it is weird because I'm very much a feminist and can't stand the whole macho alpha male I'll protect you little lady thing, but I'm still physically attracted to strong guys with good arms for cuddling. Again, can't stand the bodybuilder look, but someone with a bit of muscle is very, very nice. Like Nicholas Brendan, who I've adored since I first started watching Buffy all those years ago.

So the liking a strong feel to a guy confuses me a bit, but I don't analyse it much. It pushes my buttons, so I just go with the flow.

Do we like normal looking guys? I think part of the reason I like Nicky so much is because he does look normal. There's something about the pretty boy look that annoys me. You know, the unbelievably good looking fellas they seem to have on every TV show. It seems so fake. It's why I like Sean and Nathan too. They've very good looking, don't get me wrong, but it's not the manufactured looking good looks so many actors seem to have.

I have to hold my hand up and admit to being one of the women here who is not attracted to Jayne. Adam's cute n' all, but his character actually puts me off him completely. I've read all the posts from the Jayne lovers. I know all about him being sweet and sensitive on the inside and braiding women's hair and all that stuff. But no. Just no. He's crude, he's obnoxious and he doesn't have a whole pile going on between the ears. He would drive me absolutely demented. If I were on Serenity I'd avoid him like the plague! Which I guess means that I'd be hanging out with Simon a lot.

Desktop Hippie: at one with the 'verse

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, June 9, 2006 9:13 AM

I agree with you about Jayne. The actor is way more attractive than the character.
Dominance, I think I have discussed before; I like a trade-off. Sometimes I'm not in the mood to take charge or make decisions, and then I want whoever I'm with to do it (various situations apply here; get your minds out of the gutter!) But if someone is going to get snarky when I am in the mood to take charge, that's not cool. Sure, I would want someone to defend me if they were involved with me, and I would reciprocate. That kind of thing can't be a one-way street.

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AERIN

Friday, June 9, 2006 10:05 AM

I finally caught up! I should have gone to bed hours ago...

PR: I dunno, I guess maybe it's bizarre, but I like Jayne. I prefer Jayne over Adam Baldwin, but I don't really know the actor (see, personality is important). I like Jayne's tough, gruff exterior and softy inside. He may be crude, which I find more amusing that bad, but he's also straightforward and much less conflicted than Mal or Simon. You wouldn't see Jayne sending a gal mixed signals. I suppose it's not surprising that I also really dig Wolverine.

Tristan: Personally, I final wide shoulders and a broad back very attractive - especially when a guy wears an old comfy t-shirst that allows you to actually see the definition in his back muscles! And forams are good. I woud have said I don't get the whole butt thing, but every now and then there's a scene in a movie that about makes me drool (Wolverine in those leather pants). Usually it involves jeans and cowboy boots (aside: do cowboy boots do for men's butts what high-heels do for women?). There is something really attractive about a guy being bigger and more solid than I am. Don't worry about a little beer gut! I think the "bigger and more solid" part is actually in the chest, shoulders, and arms.

Copilot: I hope things are are getting better.

NV: I wish you well, but I suspect there are some lady browncoats on this site that are secretly hoping Ms. Incredible doesn't work out so they can have a shot!

NUCLEARDAY

Friday, June 9, 2006 11:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
As for the dominance thing ... it is weird because I'm very much a feminist and can't stand the whole macho alpha male I'll protect you little lady thing, but I'm still physically attracted to strong guys with good arms for cuddling.

So the liking a strong feel to a guy confuses me a bit, but I don't analyse it much. It pushes my buttons, so I just go with the flow.

Just some stray thoughts here re: dominance in relationships. I think there's a difference between being a strong, capable person and being someone who needs to exert (is that the word I'm looking for?) their strength on others. ie, the strong silent type vs. say... Jayne :P Not sure where I'm going with that but perhaps I got the point across nonetheless.

I see that alot as a guy myself, actually. Some people just have that sort of overbearing personality, and it doesn't always have to do with physical strength. I've found people in general, though, are attracted to confident, healthy people. For obvious reasons, I'd imagine. And I've also found that someone who needs to "act" macho is usually just hiding some insecurities. A really confident person doesn't need to be constantly proving it.

Now, myself, I'm still a bit old-fashioned. I like opening doors for women, all that cliched stuff. Maybe that means I'm not a feminist, but I haven't met too many ladies who don't get a little bit of a kick out of it. I don't lay it on thick, or anything, or make a big production. (And it only goes so far. I can be easily persuaded to let a date pay for a meal. :)It's just the way I was raised, I guess. (And likely too many movies as a kid.)

I could be wrong, though. Anyone out there actually get offended if a guy tries to be a little chivalrous?

________________________________________________
You can take my Browncoat when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. (Or if Kaylee asks me nicely...)

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, June 9, 2006 12:07 PM

It would either be "Impose their strength on others" or "Exert their strength over others" or possibly "Inflict their strength on others." Any of those would work, I suppose. And yeah, I get what you're saying.
I never got offended if a guy opened a door for me, but sometimes I would totally miss it; like, he'd start to open the door and I'd grab it and open it the rest of the way and let him go first. I only got offended when my ex got mad at me for doing that. Usually I wouldn't mind going first. I do like a little pampering, too; just see no reason not to reciprocate. Assuming I have any idea how to pamper the guy, of course. Sometimes it would just involve buying a video game or getting him some juice. Whatever works.

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TRISTAN

Friday, June 9, 2006 12:47 PM

Morning, all!

NVGhostrider, he sounds like a cool kid. I have seen the photo of Stillwater Mountains...wish I was going with you! Have a great time!

I will be back after coffee to respond to the rest of the shiny posts!

____________

DEEPGIRL187

Friday, June 9, 2006 12:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Aerin:
I finally caught up! I should have gone to bed hours ago...

PR: I dunno, I guess maybe it's bizarre, but I like Jayne. I prefer Jayne over Adam Baldwin, but I don't really know the actor (see, personality is important). I like Jayne's tough, gruff exterior and softy inside. He may be crude, which I find more amusing that bad, but he's also straightforward and much less conflicted than Mal or Simon. You wouldn't see Jayne sending a gal mixed signals. I suppose it's not surprising that I also really dig Wolverine.

I agree with you on Jayne. I'll add though that I think there's more to Jayne's character than most people think. There are a few episodes where you get the idea that maybe Jayne only lets the crew see a certain part of himself. It's what makes his character attractive, I think. As for Wolverine, however, I don't know. If you're familiar with some of the comics, you might see some of the extremely deep-seated problems this guy has. I don't think he's as straight-forward as the movies might have you believe.

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"I'm going to sing the doom song! Doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, dooooooom...."

MAL4PREZ

Friday, June 9, 2006 1:02 PM

The male form is definitely beautiful!! And thanks for the descriptions Seryn, always fun to drool in my coffee first thing in the morning...

I'm with the personality thing. I didn't get the hots for Nathan until I started hanging out on this site and got all the reports on what a great guy he is. (Well, and I heard he's 6'3". That didn't hurt. )

As much as Brad Pitt is a hotty, I have NO attraction to him because I don't think I'd like him much.

A little squishy in the middle? Hey, I'm getting it too (although I'm fighting it!) But it's no big deal. The most important thing, as someone said, is the comfort with your body thing. Know what's beautiful about your body, and what isn't should be good for a laugh, not icky trauma. And posture/bearing is HUGELY important. There's nothing as sexy as confidence (not cockiness!)

I'm not such a fan of being held down/dominated. Actually, I prefer a tall strong man who will let me believe I'm pinning him down, so I can take my time exploring those nice pretty places. *sigh*

Ooops, more drool in the coffee.

Chivalry: I find it annoying if it's not efficient. If you're closer to the door, open it. If I am, I'll open it. Sometimes a man's effort to be chivalrous interrupts the flow of the conversation/walk/whatever, as he scurries about doing his duties. It doesn't work for me. Not at all. Kills the chemistry.

I do, however, love flowers. And sparkly things, usually of the $2 plastic ring variety.

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I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Friday, June 9, 2006 1:05 PM

Quote:

Now, myself, I'm still a bit old-fashioned. I like opening doors for women, all that cliched stuff. Maybe that means I'm not a feminist, but I haven't met too many ladies who don't get a little bit of a kick out of it. I don't lay it on thick, or anything, or make a big production. (And it only goes so far. I can be easily persuaded to let a date pay for a meal. :)It's just the way I was raised, I guess. (And likely too many movies as a kid.)

I could be wrong, though. Anyone out there actually get offended if a guy tries to be a little chivalrous?

Absolutely not. Yes, I'm a feminist, but that doesn't mean I go nuts over silly things like someone opening a door for me or something. In fact, I get really annoyed when people get bogged down in those arguments. It's like making a huge fuss about being politically correct instead of dealing with underlying issues of racism.

I see feminism as more, well, common sense actually. It's the underlying differences women face in everyday life I'm concerned about. Take this example - I know two women who work for a consultancy firm. They're both bright, smart professionals - way smarter than me. Both of them put in long hours. Both of them have families.

Woman A had to fight tooth and nail to get promoted in the company. Her bosses were unhappy about the fact that she was a mother and therefore "had responsibilities outside the job." She can never take a day off to spend with her kids. If she has to take care of one of them when they're sick then the M.D starts making snyde comments about how a demanding role such as her's needs 100% dedication.

Woman B has two daughters, and the firm doesn't know they exist. Whenever she needs to spend time with them she schedules a ficticious meeting or "works from home." She feels horribly guilty about hiding her kids, but won't take a chance on getting labelled as disloyal by the M.D. Woman A thinks she's absolutely right and wishes she'd thought of it.

The M.D and several of the male consultants, occasionally take time off to spend with their kids. Whenever they do, everyone goes on about what great fathers they are.

That's the kind of stuff that burns me up. That's the kind of thing I hate with a passion and get all ranty about. Opening a door for me is really not a problem.

Apart from all the issues, I'm also simply interested in the differences between men and women, especially in literature. So that's why I describe myself as a feminist. Make sense?

Desktop Hippie: at one with the 'verse

TRISTAN

Friday, June 9, 2006 1:32 PM

SameErita, good to hear! I am generally happy with the way I am...but guys sometimes want to lose weight, too.

Copilot, you should not feel bad because you love sex. I know, "society dictates..." well, I don't listen to society on that issue. It is nice to know that females have the same urges men do. Doesn't make us feel we are the only ones with drives!

Seryn, not all of us males are simple (I know you meant it in a nice way...that's how I took it). Some of us wrap ourselves in problems we have no control over, obsess over minor details, etc. And it's not just the sensitive-type guys, either. I would not consider myself overtly sensitive nor a brute, but I do have a high level of aggression and combativeness. Having said that, I can also state that I worry constantly about many things in my life; keeping my wife happy, wondering about bills, thinking about starting a family and all the issues that brings up, where we'll be in ten years, why is my garden not doing so well, did I get everything done at work...things like that. To counter all this, I build things with my hands; armor, costumes, and whatever else I can think of. So, yes, we obsess, too...it just may not be as obvious all the time .
Oh, to maybe bring a smile to your face...socks are the first thing that come off.

PR, as far as butts go, I think there is a bit of a difference. I have never paid too much attention to another male's, but I have seen my own too often. I realize the anatomy of the butt is very similar between the sexes, but males generally have less "padding" than do the females. I have a butt...it's mostly muscle and all angular, and I can flex and create some really funny dimples (I have reduced my wife to tears of laughter while joke-posing for her and doing that). Women's butts have a softness to their lines that blur into gentle curves. Yes, there is muscle, and that also determines tone, but it's the softness that gets me.
Having said all that, I am more of a back man myself...the upper back between the shoulders down to right above the butt region...that's why my Kryptonite is a backless dress .

DeskTopHippie, I have also never liked the Alpha male mentality. I like to be protective, yes, but not "lock her away so the bad people can't get to her" protective. If you have seen my posts before, or seen her pictures, you know that my wife could have my back any day! It's sort of wired into the male mind to be the protector, but sometimes the wiring is really screwed up.

Aerin, I think heeled boots do help a man's posterior. I have a pair of engineer's boots that my wife loves for me to wear...and I think it may be for that reason.

NuclearDay, amen, brother! I was trying to figure out in my head the dominance thing...you nailed it! You and I were raised the same way; respectful to women (chivalric ideals), but not condescending.
Now, with my wife, I like to practice what I call "guerilla chivalry" as a joke...before she gets to a door, I'll say "Don't touch that!" really loudly, which pauses her long enough to allow me to get the door opened for her. I used to open her car door everywhere we went, but she politely informed me that was not necessary. We have fun with it, and we enjoy the reactions of the public.

I think I am caught up...sorry about the length!

____________

MSG

Friday, June 9, 2006 1:44 PM

Well NV, I'd be you've sent more than a few sparring partners home to a cold shower. As for the Jayne/Adam debate for me it's that Jayne is completely up front about what he wants. He's going to just lay it out and leave it for you to pick up or not and I find that attractive. I'd consider myself both a feminist and easily able to handle myself, but I also feel like I am secure enough to accept a gesture of help or protection from a guy without compromising my sense of strength. I figure you can't fight millions of years of instinct and I als think as long as a guy respects you and your ability to take care of yourself, there's no real reason to worry if he wants to open doors or be the first one out of the hatch to bash a reaver..whatever.. it's just a sign of his caring and desire to see you happy and safe and in no way ( as far as I can tell from all my guy friends) a statement of how competent or incompetent he thinks you are to protect yourself. We all want to take care of those we love. I think guys are just more physical in their taking care...wow this is way longer than I meant

RUGBUG

Friday, June 9, 2006 2:53 PM

Hi all! I'm new to the thread, but have read various parts of the others...until they got unweildy.... I thought I'd throw in my $0.02

Dominance: Hrmmm, as much as I am an independent woman, I like the feeling of "ease" that comes from having a strong, confident man around. The pressure for all the decisions is lessened. One of my biggest turn-offs is a doormat. Have an opinion. Don't be afraid to debate it with me. Have an idea of where YOU would like to go for dinner. Etc.

Men's bodies: Yum. I agree with the solidness...even if some of the solid parts are covered with a little soft. It's not like I've got a supermodel's body, I don't expect men to either.

Chivalry: Good stuff if it's not over the top. I personally think holding a door is polite, whether it's for a man OR woman. I hold doors for other women all the time. Just seems like the thing to do. Holding a car door, or a chair can be unexpected and cute once in awhile, but it can get old real quick. Having to wait for a guy to get out of a car, come around to open my door so I can get out? No thanks. It's not efficient and makes no sense to me. That's when it becomes annoying.

I've got a question for the guys: What is your feeling on independent women? I am a strong (physically...and emotionally, I suppose) woman who doesn't expect anyone to take care of me or to do things for me. I appreciate help, but won't ask for it. I find this intimidates a lot of men. I have a hard time making someone feel needed. If I am with someone, it's because I WANT to be with them, not because I NEED to be with them. Any opinions on the matter?

NUCLEARDAY

Friday, June 9, 2006 2:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PheonixRose:
But really, is there that much of a difference in butts between the genders? I mean, women have wider hips for obvious reasons, but it's still the same muscle. And it's sexy. It says "I can move around effectively. I'm a functioning person. And I have strength for thrusting!" In the case of women it can also say "I can bear children well."

I think I have to agree with Tristan on this one. It's not a huge difference between the sexes there, but it's certainly there. All the mucles are the same, sure. Females are going to generally have wider hips (one of the few key differences in our skeletal structure, IIRC.) Which makes a slight change in how the mucles lays over the bone. The biggest difference, though, is that women have a few more places to store fat than men do (butt, hips, and thighs are the ones that come to mind.)

Which is really a very long-winded way of saying what Tristan summed up as "softness." :P Also, it is of course a broad generalization (or a generalization about broads :) Women bodybuilders come to mind since they have such low body fat.

Sorry for the long-windedness. Got caught up again in the typing :) (All that money put into art school: anatomy, and years drawing naked people. And all I got out of it was an opinion about butts :)

________________________________________________
You can take my Browncoat when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. (Or if Kaylee asks me nicely...)

NUCLEARDAY

Friday, June 9, 2006 3:00 PM

To RugBug's question about strong women: Maybe it's 'cause I'm generally a bit more passive, but I dig an independant woman. I don't do well with the high-maintenance thing, myself. Not a good sign if the whole relationship is going to be about her.

________________________________________________
You can take my Browncoat when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. (Or if Kaylee asks me nicely...)

TRISTAN

Friday, June 9, 2006 4:16 PM

RugBug, independent is wonderful! Except the Alliance usually stomps on them...what? Oh, sorry, wrong type of independent...

I am in sort of a quandry about independent women...I respect them, and am all for independence. But, see, as a male, I still have that wiring I spoke of earlier. I have a "protector" flaw that runs in my veins that doesn't just apply to women-folk. Best way I can explain it is from the movie Hook...look out for anyone smaller than you. This does not mean I am this huge, hulking example of manhood, but I have a tendency to categorize people into threat levels. If I am out with my wife or a group of friends, I am always doing a threat assessment...if I see what may be a threat, I automatically become a protector. Doesn't matter if the person/people I am with are more than capable of taking care of themselves, that is the way I am. How this applies to the independent woman is that I consider my wife to be an independent woman, and she knows how I am in this regard. She goes with it, probably to humor me . When she needs help, she asks, but I try to stay out of her way otherwise.
I am all for independence, but please don't get pissed off at us males if we try to be all protective at times.

I also agree with your assessment of doormats, RugBug...but there are way too many men out there like that...and women who prefer them. Does that seem right to you?

____________

NVGHOSTRIDER

Friday, June 9, 2006 4:29 PM

Oh little COPILOT, don't fret. I think the stigma is attached to women so much because they have more to worry about, (Disease, infections, PREGNANCY). Stop the guilt. It is great that you enjoy sex. It is designed to be enjoyable. ENJOY IT. ENJOY IT OFTEN!. Women are the bearers of life. They should enjoy all that the world has to offer.

Jayne: I was gonna get me an ear too.

RUGBUG

Friday, June 9, 2006 5:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan:

I am all for independence, but please don't get pissed off at us males if we try to be all protective at times.

I don't mind protective AT ALL. I love "belonging" to someone. Walking into a party with his hand on the small of your back declaring that your "his." Yep...that's all good. Protective is kind of nice...until it involves fists and blood. I think more of a man if he can diffuse a situation or even walk away instead of fight his way out.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan:

I also agree with your assessment of doormats, RugBug...but there are way too many men out there like that...and women who prefer them. Does that seem right to you?

I don't understand why women prefer them. I don't want to be anyone's mother, telling them what to do, think, wear, etc. Where's the fun in that? But I suppose it takes all kinds...I'll just leave the doormats to someone else.

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, June 9, 2006 5:41 PM

Yes, Copilot dear, you are obviously in a sucky place. But I still say enjoy the hell out of sex; it's one of the best things in life!
The only downside to really enjoying it is that you miss it when it's not happening.
*curls up in a corner*

***********

NVGHOSTRIDER

Friday, June 9, 2006 5:55 PM

I love being around indepenant woman. The way women of that sort carry themselves really give me hope for humanity, (and they really make me want to procreate). What really gets me going is when an independant woman will take time from all their buisness and spend time, energy, and sometimes money on me.
I can admit to being the occasional doormat in the past. Thank god I had women around to point that out. Not much of a yes man now. I like to more or less agree while adding my point of view. And I love saying No. It is very liberating to say NO. NO NO NO.
As for the protective side of males, I have gladly accepted the place of passive resistance. Women Have mentioned that they do like the way I am able to diffuse situations. Besides, anyone who has the need to fight like children should be sent home in a full body cast. Thats why I don't "protect" physically anymore. I think I enjoyed the outcome too much. Besides, talking is much easier than fighting. Communication crestes a rapport between people. And bullets are cheaper than hospital visits.

Jayne: I was gonna get me an ear too.

SERYN

Friday, June 9, 2006 5:56 PM

Tristan -

Man - Is my wife happy? I'm I getting it right?
*asks wife, wife says yes/no, maybe with a few provisos (you could wash up more, I like it when... etc etc)* ok, great/that stung a bit, but I washed up blah blah!/ ok, try to remember that.
Is she telling me the truth? *Observes asks again maybe, etc.*
After reassurance, satisfaction.

Woman - Is my husband happy?
*asks, husband, same relpy*
What did he mean by that? Is he telling me the truth? oh god, did he hate it? Is he just humoring me? Am i a bad wife? Am I a bad lover? Oh, how long has he been hiding it from me that he didn't like it when....? Why didn't he tell me before? I should have guessed, I should have known! Why didn't I see it before! oh no, is our relationship failing? What do I do!?!

Calm down you daft cow, ask him again...

after reassurance, and more reassuranc, and more rassurance - nagging doubts.

I don't mean that men are simple, I just mean that they don't over analyse everything - there is an entire literary genre based on the fact that women overthink everything.

Of course, gross generalisation.

As for the dominance thing.and the feminist thing, and the efficiency/chivalry thing, I do agree with everything that has been said.

I don't call myself a feminist, i'm aware of the issus and cases like the one described above really get my goat. I think that all individuals, male female and indeterminate, should be seen in laws and human rights as totally equal. And thats right from getting paid the same for the same job to not being stoned to death for likeing the wrong guy. Right on down to manners like holding doors for each other, as the situation sees fit.

Saying that, women and men, personally, are very different creatures, for very necessary reasons - there are things that men can do and women can't and vise versa, thad there are behaviours, like protectiveness that are ingrained, like male protectiveness. So things like that don't irk me. Infact, being very feminine, I'd never admit it at the time but I kind of like it. What idon't like is when i'm treated like an idiot, not trusted to live my life and make decisions (that i'd been doing perfectly well at before) by some overbearing moron with a superiority complex. (the phrase 'don't you worry your pretty little head' springs to mind) Based solely on the fact that i'm a woman.

I'm sure there are more succinct ways to say this)

What I want is a partner who is a fully rounded person, with their own distinct personality and opinions, their own life, experience and allsorts, I hate those couples who become two halfs, with only a pair of tits on one to tell them apart. And in return to be acknowledged as an entire person myself. I like the looking out for each other and the protecting each other and the doing things for each other, but I don't need them and I certainly wont have them foisted upon me.

I'll edit this down at somepoint.

And wolverine - yes, in the comics he is a very different animal (literally sometimes) but in the movie his is attractive. And I suppose it doesn't hurt that he looks like Hugh Jackman.

**********************************************************
Hodgins: Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
FozzieWash, You know what I always say: sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!
KermieMal, I never Know what the heck you're talking about.
FozzieWash, Hey, look! They're sending us free lumber!
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

TRISTAN

Friday, June 9, 2006 6:06 PM

Seryn,

Thank you for the example. I think I understand what you mean now!
Yes, it usually only takes an assurance and then maybe one reassurance before I am satisfied that things are "ok"...but then again, I do not believe in hiding when something is wrong. I may let a few minor things bottle up for awhile, but if something is bothering me, all those involved are well aware of my feelings post-haste.
No need to edit, Seryn, thank you for being who you are!

NVGhostrider, I may talk like I am looking for a fight, but I really am not. The last time I was in a fight was in ninth grade, and I have never drawn my gun in anger. I can be very diplomatic when necessary, and am also not hesitant about vacating the vicinity of trouble. I will stand my ground if I believe there is no other way. I like to keep things happy .

____________

NUCLEARDAY

Friday, June 9, 2006 6:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Chivalry: Good stuff if it's not over the top. I personally think holding a door is polite, whether it's for a man OR woman. I hold doors for other women all the time. Just seems like the thing to do. Holding a car door, or a chair can be unexpected and cute once in awhile, but it can get old real quick. Having to wait for a guy to get out of a car, come around to open my door so I can get out? No thanks. It's not efficient and makes no sense to me. That's when it becomes annoying.

I've found that for me, half the fun of playing the chivalric male is figuring out ways to work it in efficiently. Opening doors is easy, usually, if you do it right. I don't like to make a show of it or anything, unless it's for a good laugh like Tristan said. Part of the point is being subtle about it. It's like Simon: it's about respect more than anything. I think partly the chivarly thing is just to show we care. (Especially 'cause we're not always so good with the expressing our feelings part.)

Certain things just don't work, though. Like cars. Getting in, sure, if I'm driving and it works out that we get to the passenger-side first. Leaving, though: I can hardly expect someone to wait in my stinky car while I go around to the other side just to let her out :)

________________________________________________
You can take my Browncoat when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. (Or if Kaylee asks me nicely...)

NVGHOSTRIDER

Friday, June 9, 2006 6:25 PM

I understand the whole threat asessment thing. Working with kids really lets you know about that whole flight thing quick, fast, and in a hurry. It feels like I've missed half my life watching and protecting and the like. Training seems to do alot of things to people and their personal lives. I would like to say that I have not had a physical altercation in either my personal or professional life in over three years. Isn't diplomacy such a warm and caring bitch. Keeping things all peaceful and stuff. Won't let the bad little boys out for air. As for the gunplay... We'll leave that for more private forums.

Jayne: I was gonna get me an ear too.

INTERLAKE

Friday, June 9, 2006 6:37 PM

hope i can jump in...
my hubby asked the other day if i wished he held the door for me more(he was good untill we moved in together then he stopped)at the time i shrugged and said "i d'unno" but as im reading your comments i got to thinking its the little things that keep a marrige going its easy to take care of the big things together when you still feel like a team and you feel more like a team when you know you apreciate each other- Chivalry boils down to showing respect and apreciation to the other party and it goes both ways

RUGBUG

Friday, June 9, 2006 6:43 PM

Although I fear being the thread-killer here with my tame questions, got another one for ya....

If rules of ethics prevented you from asking a girl/guy out, would you abide by the rules or risk it if you were interested enough?

(Yes, this is personally motivated. I'm sort of interested in a guy who is a health professional. Problem is, I was his patient. He seemed interested and let it slip that dating patients is a no-no. I am no longer his patient, but am still a patient at his office. I vacillate between him not being interested at all, he's following the rules, and disinterest on my part because this is dragging out and I'm getting bored with it all.)

INTERLAKE

Friday, June 9, 2006 6:47 PM

alittle sketchy but go for it you only live once...

TRISTAN

Friday, June 9, 2006 6:59 PM

RugBug, GO ASK HIM NOW!
*ahem* Sorry. Never stop to question these things...go with your impulses...may turn out to be the best thing you ever did. Even if it turns out badly, you will never have to say "what if". Just my humble opinion.

____________

SERYN

Friday, June 9, 2006 7:07 PM

I would say go for it, but i'm always hesitant on that score. Its not really ethics, but ialways made it a rule not to date my friends relations (brothers, ex's close cousins etc) And one time I broke that rule with a college friends brother. And I got STUNG.
Remember I said after one break up I felt nauseous for three weeks? well yeah. It was the closest i've ever come to being in love instant mutual attraction on both fronts, and he finished it bacause his sister didn't like the idea.
I could actually have killed him, and her. (Especially as less than a year later, she started messing around with an ex of mine - he was only the rebound guy, but still!)

so yes, go for it, but be bloody careful.

Yes, I'm going to stop editing - went back and removed the more flowery prose from my post on men, then had to go back and put it back in again, cause Mal said she enjoyed it, and of course I couldn't remember, so its probably even more flowery now.

**********************************************************
Hodgins: Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
FozzieWash, You know what I always say: sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!
KermieMal, I never Know what the heck you're talking about.
FozzieWash, Hey, look! They're sending us free lumber!
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

SERYN

Friday, June 9, 2006 7:20 PM

ok, another question for you.

In my experience, when men get a sports injury, or badly hurt themselves - break a let or get shot or something (on tv, never actually known anyone get shot personally) get run over, develop a blood infection, or break an arm in a bad tree/climbing harness/heavy equipment interaction, are perfectly sanguine about it, 'oh, just a little thing' 'it looks worse than it is' 'just a little infection, ididn't know you'd be worried'* 'it was nothing really, you should see the tree'.
The manly man routine, stoic and gruff - 'everyones makin a fuss'

And then you gat a cold, and revert to a helpless snotty whining three year old.

WHY? why oh why oh why?

*no dad, of course we wern't worried when you went completely awol, gave us one call to say you were a bit ill, then turned up two weeks later saying you'd been in hospital.

TRISTAN

Friday, June 9, 2006 7:23 PM

You shouldn't edit what you type in here...it's a better indication of your feelings if you can't tinker with your own words .

I am sorry you got hurt. A good thrashing would have been in order!

We here all love you, just remember that!

____________

NVGHOSTRIDER

Friday, June 9, 2006 7:25 PM

Been there. Amazingly enough with Ms. Incredible. (I know it may be a bit annoying having to hear about her but she is the only good thing I have going right now). We worked in the same office together for a short while last year. I did cross the boundry by asking her to the Company Christmas party. Politics ended up in the way and we didn't end up going. Despite the Company and other factors getting in the way. I feel very posative about asking her out now. Trying is all you can do. I feel it to be much harder to do nothing. Besides, we don't live forever so take as many educated chances as possible.

Seryn: I think most men turn macho in those cases for two reasons.
1.Pain management. Men have a lower threshold of pain then women.
2.Pride of course.
The whole "I'm a sick little baby" thing is very annoying to me. I will not do that unless I'm running out all ends, can't eat, can't sleep, and can't work. Otherwise I simply man up and take it. Why others do it, I don't know.
Jayne: I was gonna get me an ear too.

SERYN

Friday, June 9, 2006 7:29 PM

aw thank you!

right back. and one for the missus too. (just to head off the thumping, I ain't messin with her man! )

**********************************************************
Hodgins: Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
FozzieWash, You know what I always say: sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!
KermieMal, I never Know what the heck you're talking about.
FozzieWash, Hey, look! They're sending us free lumber!
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

COPILOT

Friday, June 9, 2006 7:32 PM

My darling NVghostrider you are a beautiful soul and desearve to be happy so go for it head first!

An I carried such a torch.......For the Dark Lord

SAFEAT2ND

Friday, June 9, 2006 7:36 PM

I have to admit, this thread is not what I expected. Not at all.

It hasn't been reduced to childish potty humour, and that in of itself is a very refreshing thing. Add that to the fact that the conversation is intelligent and open minded...

My two cents worth is that chivalry is not dead, but have to agree that it only works if the guy knows the line between chivalry and fawning.

I am also glad to hear that a little softness around the middle is ok.

Seryn, I know some guys that are like that with a cold... I prefer to just sleep it off. I get grumpy when I have a cold so I try to avoid people until it's gone.

As for the injury thing, I'm not sure why guys are like that. I know I'm guilty of it (3rd degree shoulder separation, broken wrist, knee scope, broken nose). I think we see injuries as sort of sports trophies... I dunno. Maybe it's because the pain is localized, whereas with a cold (at least the ones I get) wipe you out whole body like.

Safeat2nd, Chief Handyman of Destiny

NVGHOSTRIDER

Friday, June 9, 2006 7:37 PM

Our cute little COPILOT emerges. Head first is the only way I know. (Except for swimming. Got a concussion once) Press on COPILOT, I'm the big brown guy in the crowd of BROWNCOATS cheering for you.

Jayne: I was gonna get me an ear too.

SERYN

Friday, June 9, 2006 7:41 PM

Safe darlin'! Hello.

I figured it was something like that - injuries being some kind of trophy. Though I would have said it that they were something to brag about in the pub.

**********************************************************
Hodgins: Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
FozzieWash, You know what I always say: sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!
KermieMal, I never Know what the heck you're talking about.
FozzieWash, Hey, look! They're sending us free lumber!
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

SAFEAT2ND

Friday, June 9, 2006 7:53 PM

What Ghostrider said is true too. MOST men do have a lower pain threshold. Plus that men are conditioned from a very young age to "suck it up".

I also think that athletic men in particular, tend to have that wonderful stuff called adrenaline coursing throught their system when said injury occurs. It's a natural pain killer.

Hiya Seryn!
Sorry to butt in everyone.

Safeat2nd, Chief Handyman of Destiny

TRISTAN

Friday, June 9, 2006 7:57 PM

Seryn, thanks! Just to alleviate any paranoia in here...my wife is not a jealous woman, nor would she "thump" anyone for showing me love. We are cool like that.

To the injury thing...if I injure myself very badly, and am unable to drive myself to the hospital, I seek help. Everything else can be taken care of with superglue and duct tape. When I get sick, I have a tendency to be less than pleasant. I don't want to be babied nor coddled, I just want to be left to wallow in misery (no self-martyrdom there, eh? ). Seriously, I really don't like being taken care of, but I know where you are coming from. Big huge manly-men reduced to whimpering puddles...sad, really.

Safeat2nd, thank you for the vote of confidence (no sarcasm meant). We try to keep this intellectual, and it is working so far. We had trouble in the beginning, but all has been well since that ended. Thank you for joining us!

Go, Copilot, go, Copilot!

____________

NVGHOSTRIDER

Friday, June 9, 2006 8:19 PM

Just one more before I'm out for the weekend. Thanks to all the BROWNCOATS for the much needed support, amuzement, and thoughts. If I was able to help anyone this week, push it forward. All BROWNCOATS may need to be carried once in a while. Looking forward to the 23rd, (can't do much but buy stuff and post like mad). Love you all. Remember: When in doubt, pull it out.

NVGHOSTRIDER

Jayne: I was gonna get me an ear too.

RUGBUG

Friday, June 9, 2006 8:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan:
RugBug, GO ASK HIM NOW!
*ahem* Sorry. Never stop to question these things...go with your impulses...may turn out to be the best thing you ever did. Even if it turns out badly, you will never have to say "what if". Just my humble opinion.

While this is VERY good adivce, and despite all my talk before about being strong and independent, I am still pretty traditional when it comes to who asks who out.

Additionally, I am HORRIBLE at letting a guy know I am interested (very shy) so let's just say it's not too surprising that I am single.

And, he's a very by-the-book type of guy, so I get the feeling he would turn me down and then there would be months of remaining therapy (physical therapy that is...see info below for explanation) and awkwardness. Blech!

NVGhostRider: I like hearing you talk about Ms. Incredible. I know I hope there will one day be someone who refers to me as that.

Here's to a good date this weekend.

As for men and colds: Good god, you would think some of them were dying. Broken bones and such, and it's 'just patch me up and get me back out there.'

But, as referenced above, I can be the same way. I am 9 months into rehabbing a broken arm (thus the need for physical therapy and meeting aforementioned cutie) and I am lying in the arena (horse dumped me after hitting a jump with his back feet) cracking jokes, trying to hit on the cute paramedics. I tried to sit up immediately after it happened to go get my horse. Trainer was like, "Um, yeah. I'm gonna go call 911." I was like, "is my HORSE okay?"

Pain, schmain.

LIGHTMEDARK

Friday, June 9, 2006 8:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
I've got a question for the guys: What is your feeling on independent women? I am a strong (physically...and emotionally, I suppose) woman who doesn't expect anyone to take care of me or to do things for me
...
Any opinions on the matter?

Well, my first two girlfriends were independant. I think I'm attracted more to the strong woman...but I've come to distrust them. I think it has something to do with the fact that in my mind a strong woman is more likely to cheat (i have a lot of hang ups, haha).

Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:
I don't mean that men are simple, I just mean that they don't over analyse everything - there is an entire literary genre based on the fact that women overthink everything.

I'm overly analytical to a gross degree...I just don't vocalize it.

Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:
And then you gat a cold, and revert to a helpless snotty whining three year old.

WHY? why oh why oh why?

A lot of men are like that (my dad for example), but I'm not. I think it's because I was sick more often than the other kids and school and hence just got used to it.

TRISTAN

Friday, June 9, 2006 8:51 PM

RugBug, ah, I understand. Maybe try the "want to join me for (insert beverage here) afterwards?". That might do it. If not, let your inner cavewoman out; get a club, bonk him on the head, and drag him back to your cave. Guaranteed to work every time!

Ouch! So, was the horse ok?

____________

SERYN

Friday, June 9, 2006 9:35 PM

I'm completely the opposite - I get a hundred colds every winter. All ido is get very very annoyed. Absolutely disgusted with the cold for daring to be caught! If its bad enough i'll stay off work and sit in a blanket on the sofa, but the most you'll get are complaints about how dare this cold be so bad and the occaisional 'sorry for sniffing' *wan look*, I still do most stuff for my self, and if i'm not in bed, then its just a case of get on with it.

Injuries! Oh my god. anything above a paper cut a cat scratch or a blister and i whine like nobodies business (Mal with the stab wound? thats me.) Everybody gets told about it (like when fell over St.Georges hall (a big public building in liverpool) or got happy slapped by a pidgeon. In a jokey way, but still, every one has to know. And I get annoyed by my inability to bruise well - dammit I want sympathy! God knows what I would be like if i was ever seriously hurt.

Actually, the last time I was seriously hurt was when idrove a sewing needle eye first through the palm of my hand. I went into shock. And when idamaged my thumb. Both times I damaged my thumb - shock.

Thats what i do, I go into shock. How useless am I?

Maybe i do need a big hulking man-beast protector. If for nothing else than to drive me to the gp's.

(though what a waste of a big hulking man-beast )

**********************************************************
Hodgins: Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
FozzieWash, You know what I always say: sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!
KermieMal, I never Know what the heck you're talking about.
FozzieWash, Hey, look! They're sending us free lumber!
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

TRISTAN

Friday, June 9, 2006 9:44 PM

Seryn,
Oooh, oooh, sewing injuries! This one time, at summer theatre (hehehe) I managed to break one of those leather hand sewing needles and ram the broken end completely through my thumb, nail and all. After the initial impact, and the "...huh, that's gonna hurt in a minute", all I was worried about was not bleeding on the leather. Just to end the story on an "EWWW!!" note, I ended up having to pull the needle out of my own thumb with a pair of pliers, because the nurse wasn't able to.
Oh, the joys of sewing!

____________

RUGBUG

Friday, June 9, 2006 9:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by LightMeDark:
I think I'm attracted more to the strong woman...but I've come to distrust them. I think it has something to do with the fact that in my mind a strong woman is more likely to cheat (i have a lot of hang ups, haha).

Oh, no, no. I would never cheat. If it gets to that point, I will break up with someone before cheating happens. And I would much rather a guy breaks up with me if he knows he's getting close to cheatin'.

Tristan: Horse was perfectly fine. I was just worried about him as he ran off down the barn road headed to a busy street. As it turns out, I didn't see him race around the corner to his stall and stand there like a whimpering idiot. He didn't need to dump me, he's just a drama queen in horse's clothing.

Seryn: First off, no editing unless it's for spelling.

I liked your flowery post.

Too bad about the bruising. They are good for some sympathy, or what I like, grossing people out. During the arm breaking fall, I ended up with an oddly (nothing broken, sprained or outwardly injured) swollen right ankle that was PURPLE almost to mid-calf. That thing sure got me some sympathy and grossed out its fair share of people.

I didn't really want the sympathy, but it comes part and parcel with the showing off the grossness. Lately I've been grossing people out with my dropped humerus. It sits about an inch and a half below my shoulder socket. I can do some cool stuff with it.

And I rarely get sick. Haven't been in about a year and a half. But that doesn't mean I don't "play" sick from time to time.

Sewing injuries? Ouch...and gross.

LIGHTMEDARK

Friday, June 9, 2006 9:58 PM

I appreciate that you would...it's just that in my (limited) experience, that's not how it goes :o

PHOENIXROSE

Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:39 AM

I agree with rugbug, here. Better to end it cleanly rather than lie. Not enough people feel that way, though. I feel your pain, LightMeDark.

Hey, I'm thinking of writing a "User's Manual" for myself, just for fun. Anyone ever done something like that? Do you think it's a good idea? Would you actually ever want to read one?

***********

MSG

Saturday, June 10, 2006 3:08 PM

Rugbug- I am right with you!! doormats are pointless. I want an equal not a guy who's too scred to say boo and I love protective(not possessive) guys

and eek on all the scary sewing stories..Now I have another reason never to learn to sew. NV- Good luck on the date darlin I can't think of anyone else who deserves it more.

OK and can someone expain happy slapped by a pidgeon??? I am generally familiar with british slang and I've got nothing. Or were you actually slapped by a pidgeon ( which by the way the mental image is making me crumple with laughter)
You're only young once, but you can be immature any time!

MSG

Saturday, June 10, 2006 3:15 PM

Hey my whole family has been conditioned to suck it up and shake it off..mostly this is good but I have to say sometimes ( like the time I broke 5 bones in my foot and dislocated a joint and didn't go to the doctor) it's less fun. I will agree that guys are generally more conditioned to do it....Just to add a wrinkle to the thread ( ok wrinkled thread sounds weird but I digress) How do all of you feel about guys who cry in public???

You're only young once, but you can be immature any time!

COPILOT

Saturday, June 10, 2006 7:49 PM

I hate seeing anyone cry especially men. Misting up at sad movies or sunsets can be atractive but full on sobbing about anythig makes me want to hide under a rock!
To PhonixRose sometimes I feel like handing out some sort of imformational manual to people I just meet. Kind of like an early warning system.

An I carried such a torch.......For the Dark Lord

LIGHTMEDARK

Saturday, June 10, 2006 9:19 PM

I agree with copilot. The misting or maybe some tears dropping is alright, but full on bawling is, well, yikes

Having said that, I haven't been able to cry since my grandpa died 5 years ago. It's been too long

SERYN

Saturday, June 10, 2006 10:30 PM

yes, full on bawling is more than I can deal with from anyone. I can't even cope with my niece crying, and she's five. (the fake drama queen wailing i mean, not the genuine in-pain stuff)

I don't know, you have to cry at some point, its a pressure release, from stress etc.

But someone stood there crying their eyes out over a tv ad or a picture of a happy puppy? Drip drip drip.

The last time I saw a guy cry was my dad, when his flat burnt down taking everything with it - his wedding ring all his belonging etc. Two tiny tears and a sniff. The time before that was him again, when he told us he and my mother were divorcing. So thats twice in the last 15 years maybe? It kinda wierds me out, because I'm really not used to it, so I couldn't give a balanced opinion. I only ever cry myself out of strees (money worries and shocks)with emotional stuff I just clam up. Recently a man my age comitted suicide in the museum I work in (walked up to the fourth floor and threw himself into the lobby) And the only time I came close to crying was when I tried to explain to someone on here what happended -lumps in throat and stinging eyes, that was it! So Not really around tears that much! But if theres cause, yes, cry.

(actually, the wierdest guys crying thing I've ever seen was an actor sat in front of me who just made himself cry, just spontaneously, that was freaky!)

PHOENIXROSE

Sunday, June 11, 2006 6:46 AM

Heh heh, didn't take long to put together a brief "info packet" I guess I'm less complicated than I thought (or I forgot a few things) Anyway it was kinda fun. It's not all warnings, though.
Crying in public? I never do it. Well, maybe a tear or two but I don't tend to. In private I sob if I have cause. Sometimes I almost wish men would get wrapped up enough to cry over something; I've yet to see it happen. So I don't know how I feel about it in truth, I suppose, but it would be kinda nice. Like an "oh, hey, you care about something!" moment. Although there have been a few minor freak outs that didn't involve tears, which works about the same. Yeah, I don't know if I made any sense there.

I have a question for the menfolk; I stopped wearing makeup about three years ago. Do ya'll like a woman who wears it, or do you prefer something more natural? I sometimes wear lipstick, but mostly it's just me. The kind of guys I seem to attract when wearing a lot of makeup, or even just dark lipstick, aren't really very attractive people; they treat me like a frickin doll or something. So I just wonder; I took a quiz (bored) about datability or something, and it asked something about spending a lot of money on makeup and clothes, which I don't, and also if my clothes were 1 Worn, 2 Fashionable or 3 Practical (there weren't really enough options to cover everything anyway, I would have picked "unusual" if it were an option) and apparently based on those it said I need to work more on my "appearance" for dating. What? Bah!

***********

SAFEAT2ND

Sunday, June 11, 2006 2:04 PM

So many things to address...

Men Crying, once again men are conditioned not to cry. That said, there has to be a limit. Crying over a TV ad for a soda pop?? no. A tragic event, there is no shame in being teary, just don't get all melodramatic. I was emotional when my Grandfather died.

Phoenix, I'm not a big fan of make-up on a woman. My wife wears what I call accent make-up. A little mascara and eyeliner and a very natural lipstick. Thats when she actually wears it at all. I think shes stunning without it. The thing I don't like is the press-on French Manicure nails. It's been over done. And yes it is obvious that the nails are fake.

Safeat2nd, Chief Handyman of Destiny

TRISTAN

Monday, June 12, 2006 12:57 AM

Greetings, all!
A few things I missed...and good ones, too!

Crying: I cry every now and again...usually at movies or songs. I have never cried from being hurt (physically or emotionally)since I was a wee lad, but it wasn't from being taught to "suck it up" at an early age...I was too concerned with the problem at hand to initiate the waterworks.
Now, I have cried because I have been happy. By that, I mean tears in my eyes type thing...that felt good.
I do not deal well with tears in others, though. I become completely useless when someone cries. My only thought is how to get them to stop crying.

I like makeup in small doses. Tammy Faye Baker is a no-no. My wife generally doesn't wear makeup; she does her eyes for work, and "dolls-up" for the ocassional special event. She has a natural beauty (I may be biased, but it is the truth...she is beautiful) and make-up on her has the "BAM!" effect. She does this thing that makes her eyes look huge...usually reduces me to just uttering "damn!" alot...
I do no think all women need makeup and I am a lover of natural beauty. However, there are some women who need something...
And to go along with that...there are some men that should also be required to wear makeup!

Alright, I shall be back tomorrow to chat with y'all again!

____________

COPILOT

Monday, June 12, 2006 1:16 AM

I finally cried about the breakup today.
This morning I woke up with my friend instead of former Significant Other and while we cuddled it felt akward. I cuddle with people all the time I just love human contact.
Those little things I never relized now seem enormious! Knowing exactly how to kiss him, that quick peck everytime he leaves the house, cuddlig with him without any sort of akward rearranging, the way we reach for each others hands when we're walking. I cried for all of that today. Then put it to bed forever.
Like the idiot I can sometimes be and I went to his new place to say hi. Looking around I noticed that there is no longer space for me in his life. Someone else's pictures will be in those picture frames someone else will someday take my place take his heart from me. I want this I really do but.....when you're not quite 22 four years is a really long time.
This is a lot harder then I anticipated.

An I carried such a torch.......For the Dark Lord

TRISTAN

Monday, June 12, 2006 1:24 AM

Copilot, I am not sure what to say. Stay your course and things will be better just seems like a trite comment after your post. We are here for you, and you have our love and support.

____________

COPILOT

Monday, June 12, 2006 1:30 AM

Thank you Tristian. I'll be just fine I'm sure. Life is life and time never stops going forward.
Besides the worst anyone can do is kill you!

An I carried such a torch.......For the Dark Lord

COPILOT

Monday, June 12, 2006 1:30 AM

Love Love Love Love Love Love Love Love Love

An I carried such a torch.......For the Dark Lord

TRISTAN

Monday, June 12, 2006 1:57 AM

Copilot, isn't that the opening line of a Beatle's song?

____________

COPILOT

Monday, June 12, 2006 2:22 AM

which one? I like listening to the beatles but don't make much of point to memerize stuff.
Oh flowers! For me? Yay!

An I carried such a torch.......For the Dark Lord

TRISTAN

Monday, June 12, 2006 2:28 AM

Copilot,
Um..."Love, love, love" I think....let me check.
-EDIT- It's actually "All You Need Is Love"...

And yes, flowers for you! Pretty ladies need pretty flowers.

____________

COPILOT

Monday, June 12, 2006 2:36 AM

I used to believe that all you need is love. Lived my life accordingly. But aparently you also need to eat sleep and brush your hair regularly.
Yet more things former significant other did for me. Made me eat every day. Made me sleep at least a few hours a night. The brushing of my hair everyday was an accident but it's because of him too. I'm probably only alive because he found me (on a very bad path in those days).
He's so amazing! Why didn't I see those things then? Hindsight really is 20/20! Which is funny because I really am incredably near sighted. I love him so very much!
If only? If doesn't help anything does it? I grew up and grew out of the relationship. First impressions never really go away though.

An I carried such a torch.......For the Dark Lord

JSUSAGI

Monday, June 12, 2006 2:36 AM

OOOOOOOOOOOK... Lots of stuff, but I'll try to stay on the main topic here.

First off...Thanks for all the kind words about me hunny! Glad you like my independent streak and my makeup. Um, so, yeah...ok. From here on in, please try not to get too curious about what I say about the male form. You know I love you.

So, what do females find attractive in males? Well, for me it always starts with the eyes. If a guy looks me in the eye while talking to me, he has my attention. I dont really have a favorite color...tend to lean toward the darker varieties; however, shocking blue usually turns my knees to Jello.
As far as the actual form of a man, i like em skinny with a little bit of muscle. If I can wrap my arms around them and they can lift me up, its all gravey. Body builder types just make me cringe. Its like hugging a brick wall. But if he's tall enough for me to put my head on his chest when we hug, yay.
And hair. OMG!!! I LOVE long hair. Tristan used to have it, and I have accepted that I may never see it again, but when it was there it was BEAUTIFUL! There's just something about twisting my fingers in long locks
For me, thats about it. Im more attracted to a guy with a good sense of humor, and likes me for me. I am a very independent woman, I love hanging out with the guys, and if you have a problem with it, you;re not for me. (Thats why I love my husband) I have found I lean towards men with feminine qualities; long hair, graceful fingers, high cheek bones, long eyelashes. I do like to feel protected now and then. There's nothing better than being held tightly by the man you love.
All in all, I think the same question should be posted for men. What do you see in females? When I look at myself, I see a girl with too much around the middle, a "badonkadonk", boobs that aren't quite perky anymore, and that one mole on my nose that has no pigment so it look like a zit. Why am I attractive? So you see guys, women have insecurities too. Maybe thats why we need you guys..too make us feel good.

TRISTAN

Monday, June 12, 2006 2:43 AM

Everyone! It's my wife! She's finally here!

*ahem*

Sorry, I am much better now.

____________

TRISTAN

Monday, June 12, 2006 2:47 AM

Copilot.
Oh, mercy. I wish there was something I could do to make you feel better about your decision. Everyone will tell you the feelings will go away, you did the right thing, it's all for the best, get on with your life. None of those statements help at all. When you are ready, you will let go. It is good to hold onto the good memories and forget the bad.
We will be here. Remember that. Some of us may not know you IRL, but you are cared for deeply.

____________

COPILOT

Monday, June 12, 2006 2:51 AM

You're Tristian's Significant other? Yay! You two are so very lucky to have found each other! Also you're adorable together! Your wedding picture looks amazing! I think love can make anyone attractive. Everyone has insecurities darlin dears everywhere. I think I'm freaking hidious most days but people say I'm not so I've decided to just go with that one it's better anyway.
What makes a man attractive? Personality! But then again I don't really care what anyone looks like. I think every single one of my friends is beautiful! I know they can't all be but to me they really are! I've said it before and I'll say it again nice smart nerdy guys will always win out over stupid conventinally attractive asses always! But I see that's not generally the case these days.

An I carried such a torch.......For the Dark Lord

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, June 12, 2006 3:02 AM

Yay! The enigmatic Warrior Woman graces us
Very pleased to meet you!

Copilot. I know how you're feeling. Mine didn't go on for as long, but the knowing just how to kiss someone thing and all that... I feel that too. The thought of trying to start over and get to that point with someone else is quite daunting. I keep wondering if it's ever going to be as good again. It still makes me cry at times.
We are here for you, my sister!

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