Male and Female Imponderables---Guess What? I Lost Count!

POSTED BY: Tristan
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 4, 2006 13:56
VIEWED: 18191
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TRISTAN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:02 AM

Pose all your Imponderables! Get answers to those questions about the opposite sex that have vexed you for years!

Check here for the last thread:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=21868&m=329927#329927

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TRISTAN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:05 AM

Fire, I spent the first year or so on stage, then discovered costuming and other tech work...only went onstage a few times after that.
And you have smacked the communication problem right on the head! You will fit in well here!

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PENGUIN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:09 AM

lol

I was a Theater Arts major in college (English Literature and Criticism minor)...I was on stage too, but I knew I couldn't act. I went for the techie part of the theater. I swing a mean hammer!

TRISTAN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:11 AM

It only took one afternoon in the costume shop for me to realize that I belonged there. I had the chance to try everything except stage design and lighting while I was there...and still loved the costuming the most!

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FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:16 AM

Being able to swing a hammer is more practical!

I had no idea there were so many here that are inclined toward theater and drama. Although, I shouldn't be surprised.

It's clear this is a creative group, just from the Blue Sun Room postings.

PENGUIN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:22 AM

I've turned a lot of what I learned in the theater to good use in my house. I've done most of the work around my house and I can paint with the best of them!

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:29 AM

Now that belongs in this thread: being handy around the house is definitely an attractive trait!

I used to do quite a bit of painting and wallpapering myself. I redid pretty much every room of our house in Augusta. I still miss it, and we left years ago.

TRISTAN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:31 AM

Scene painting class introduced me to texturing walls, and I put that to good use at my parent's home. Around here, it helps with the decorating.
Yes, handy around the house is a definite plus in a mate!

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PENGUIN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:37 AM

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:37 AM

Do you mean faux painting techniques? Or actually laying on texture?

TRISTAN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:41 AM

I learned both, but did much better using plaster and building up from a flat base wall. Never quite got into the colored plaster a la Michelangelo, but I did manage to make the walls look good.

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FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:46 AM

That is impressive! And not something that I can do.

One of my friends who owns an older house in the Inman Park area of Atlanta has talked about how difficult it is to deal with real plaster walls. Her house is beautiful.

TRISTAN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:55 AM

Oh, no, the first few tries were disastrous...had to re-sand the walls and start all over again. But, with practice (and patience on my parents' part) I got better. Of course, it's been almost twelve years, so I am sure I am a bit rusty!

I hate to do this, but I must bid you goodnight...I shall return tomorrow!

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PHOENIXROSE

Saturday, July 1, 2006 8:20 AM

You mean I have to respond to the last thread here? Curse my love of sleep!
Tristan, in answer to your query, I have not personally had that experience, nor have I inflicted it on others. I know basically what I don't like and what I'm not into. For example, I've warned every guy I've ever been with not to spank me or I will kick their asses (or just leave; you know) although it's not that bad if it's nice and light, no man I've come across knows how to do that. Ladies, oh they know how, but for whatever reason men can't do it and it always hurts. I'm not a fan of pain. I know some people are and that is fine, but I am not. So I wouldn't, say, let someone spank me a whole lot and then say later that I "wasn't really into that". How dumb is that?
As for the pill, I've been on it for two years and it has not killed my sex drive. The only thing it killed was my PMS and cramps from hell. But I'll keep that in mind, and if my drive ever starts decreasing I will try going off my pills. However, if I do that I may show up at your house and say "Well how do I get rid of these cramps and mood swings now?!?!" Heh. Kidding.
As to firefromheaven's long post, I can only say that I'm very glad I wasn't raised by overly uptight people. It would be horrible to be shut away from my own body, which happens to too many people, both male and female.
The quote is "Talking about love is like dancing about architecture" and is from a play of the same name which was made into a movie called "Playing by Heart"
I wanted to be involoved with the drama dept at my high school, but they were complete snobs and didn't want to let me act which was what I loved to do. Basically only seniors who had been with the theater since they were freshman were allowed on stage, even if I was a better actress than any of them (Well, some were as good as me...) Anyway, I stopped trying to get them to like or accept me, and I left school early anyway and took a few college courses and then left that, too. Maybe I'll have better luck in college if and when I go back.
Whew!

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FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 12:20 PM

PhoenixRose, your posts tend to be wonderfully interesting and self-aware. It *is* a terrible thing to be raised to be shut off. Despite the many difficult things she has to deal with, I work very hard at not raising my own beautiful daughter to be that way.

In some ways, my parents couldn't help themselves. In others, they simply weren't willing to change. They're a product of their own generations and their own multi-cultural incompatibilities.

I am fortunate that they are still alive at age 81 (Dad) and 69 (Mom). Dad was born in a log cabin in Indiana and grew up during the Depression and then was career military. He fought in WWII. My mother is the seventh child of a European Countess (no kidding!) and her family lost everything during WWII. Mom was 8 when the war ended.

These are scarred people. They are also survivors. In some ways, they have nothing in common, yet they've been together for 49 years.

I suppose I didn't struggle for acceptance in quite the usual way. I had an early awareness of simply being different, because I am multi-cultural myself. I was born in Germany and lived there for most of my childhood, until I was 8. Then Dad retired at Ft. Benning, GA. What a difference!

I suspect that you had some trouble in high school because you're really smart. That's all too common for gifted kids.

Yes, college can be really different. I encourage you to go back.

PENGUIN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 12:39 PM

Good morning Imponderables!

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 12:42 PM

Good morning! Devil Opus is adorable.

PENGUIN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 12:53 PM

lol I forgot which thread I was in so I changed it!

You'll see the penguin do all sorts of things around here!

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 1:01 PM

Because you're talented and can create different ones, he makes for an interesting and expressive alter-ego for you, Penguin.

13

Saturday, July 1, 2006 2:46 PM

I've always loved acting, although I'm wildly inexperienced. If I like doing something, I tend to do it no matter how much I suck at it. Hence, my BSR items. From what I've seen (and taken) gifted kids get beaten down on, partly because the person bullying them is jealous, or because they've just had a bad day. There are other reasons, too, but those are the most prevalent. I took that for too many years, and have since become a kind of non-profit protection agency. Like I said, I'm just happy to be doing good works.

It's interesting how the ratios of physical strength and mental strength are inversely proportionate.

Wish I had an alter-ego.

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'It's Braedan. With an A.'

PHOENIXROSE

Saturday, July 1, 2006 2:52 PM

Yeah, I had issues with the administration as much as the other students. But I was bullied quite a bit up until ninth grade. Fortunately once I got into high school there were so many people that it was hard to keep track of anyone just to give them a hard time. But the administration was horrible, the whole system is broken anyway, and I couldn't take it anymore. Blegh.

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13

Saturday, July 1, 2006 2:59 PM

I don't have problems with the SCHOOL administration..I've got definite problems with some specific students in other schools, though.

Join with me, PR, in the Song of Elementary!

*Random acts,*
*of senseless violence*
*Unexpected bats,*
*Help remind us*
*Although you did nothing*
*Your teeth will get knocked out*

-------------------------------------------------

'It's Braedan. With an A.'

'Shiny moments aren't a destination any of us get to, and stay put forever. They're brief, unknowable flashes in time. That's what makes them shiny.' -GorramReevers

PHOENIXROSE

Saturday, July 1, 2006 3:04 PM

Well you haven't gotten to the age where the admin is overrun with beuracracy and stupid rules and corrupt principals, either. Give it a few years and you'll probably have fewer problems with the students and more with the policies; unless you go to some incredible school, possibly a private school of some sort, since they don't have to enforce stupid policies that come from the stupid school board.
Yes, elementary school was a particularly special hell (in the bad way). Junior high was little better. high school was better for social reasons, worse for policy. Didn't really stay in college long enough to find out; I was tired of it all.

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FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 3:49 PM

13 and PhoenixRose, I'm sorry to hear that you had those kinds of problems. Again, it's all too common and due to ignorance. While all gifted students are vulnerable, it tends to be harder on the boys.

Yes, the school system in the US is broken; may be better in Canada. I don't know. It's hard for everyone – students, parents, and teachers. I can't imagine what the bureaucrats are *thinking*!

There are websites about giftedness that I like, including one for a place near you, PhoenixRose:
The Gifted Development Center is in Denver.

I love this website: www.hoagiesgifted.org

You, 13, may be interested in various things in there, including this area: www.hoagiesgifted.org/kids_speak_out.htm

The beginning of the poem at www.hoagiesgifted.org/to_my_teacher.htm :

To My Teacher
by Shaun, then 14, to his English teacher

I didn't ask for it. This mind that seems to so repulse you.
It's not my fault I'm different in a way you cannot stand.
I cannot understand why a man like you could fear me.
But fear is what I see in you - it's either that or hate.
I can't think that you hate me - because I've seen the time you take
To help me when I've needed it in any other way.
Except when in your class room - and then you seem to feel that
You must destroy me utterly, to make me just the same.

(It goes on for a bit beyond this)

You, PhoenixRose, might especially be interested in the Dabrowskian Oversensitivities at www.hoagiesgifted.org/dabrowski.htm

Some of the articles are better than others, of course. Here's one quote:
“Sensual OE
a heightened ability to experience sensory pleasure manifesting in an increased need to touch and be touched, hugged, kissed; early signs of sexual interest and development; interest in food and food preparation; aesthetic interests; drama; need for comfort and luxury; need for attention and company; dislike of loneliness”

PHOENIXROSE

Saturday, July 1, 2006 3:54 PM

You... you mean I'm not the only one? And this is an actual sign of being gifted? I thought it was likely unrelated! Who'da thought?

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13

Saturday, July 1, 2006 3:59 PM

Huh.

-------------------------------------------------

'It's Braedan. With an A.'

'Shiny moments aren't a destination any of us get to, and stay put forever. They're unknowable, brief flashes in time. That's what makes them shiny.' -GorramReevers

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 4:03 PM

Yes, there is a correlation between various heightened sensitivities and being gifted. Different people will primarily express (typically called “lead with”) one sensitivity over the others, but often have them all. The five areas are: Psychomotor, Sensual, Imaginational, Intellectual, and Emotional.

MSG

Saturday, July 1, 2006 4:04 PM

See this is why I teach students with disabilities. I hate the idea of throwaway kids. I work really hard to show my kids that no one is perfect, but they are just as good as the others. Unlike most teachers of the disabled, I have my students read the smae books as their peers and I work them a ton. Consequently my kids got scores equal to the regular kids on their end of year exams. They were so proud and now they believe they are just as good as others. It's all about passion and committment! That said, I think the U.S. school system is dying horribly for 3 reasons 1- not enough funds( there by creating the pay peanuts get monkeys bad teacher problem), 2- available funds mismanaged by towering burocracy( creating the few dedicated teachers get worked to death trying to salvage and scrounge with leftovers) 3- standards set by the new bush law which place all responsibility for a students performance on the teacher without any recognition of poor parenting or badly motivated kids.
As of right now I have spent in excess of $1800 U.S. of my own income to finance books, paper, supplies, and food/clothing for my students.While the people in the management section have 2 hour lunches, I get 25 min. While they get paid 80,000 on average our average teacher gets 30,000.Anyway, sorry this is so long but it just makes me angry.

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

13

Saturday, July 1, 2006 4:08 PM

After that little post, Ms. G, gotta say I'm liking Canada a whole lot more.

Psychomotor sensitive, eh?

Eh. Teehee. Sorry, Canada thing.

-------------------------------------------------

'It's Braedan. With an A.'

'Shiny moments aren't a destination any of us get to, and stay put forever. They're unknowable, brief flashes in time. That's what makes them shiny.' -GorramReevers

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 4:20 PM

MSG, you are one of the many underappreciated teachers in the system who verge on deserving sainthood yet, as you say, are merely tossed crumbs.

I'm not surprised that you are this kind of teacher. Yes, you should get paid *way* more than you do.

"No Child Left Behind" is a travesty!

I'm angry about it all, too!

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 4:25 PM

Oh, and kudos on your creativity and getting your kids scores up like that!

MSG, you rock!

You are making a life-changing difference for those students. In most cases, you'll probably never know just how much of a difference you made in their lives, but I have no doubt that it's huge.

MSG

Saturday, July 1, 2006 4:36 PM

yeah I love my little bugs. They just need love and caring and they do just fine. Most of my kids do very well in drama and I use that shamelessly to help them. ( that may be because I am a theater person) Kids should never feel picked on or unaccepted by their teachers. There are always going to be peers picking on each other and teachers should contain and stop it, but it should never be a teacher who makes a kid feel like they are unworthy.
Our principal has teacher rules ( we have a great faculty) and they are 1- NO yelling ever, 2- respect for all students no matter what, 3-find the problem and fix it, don't cast blame, and 4- it's your class and your choice and I will back you up.
That really helps the whole faculty work for the kids, but I know our school is unusual.
Yeah No child left behind is insane. If my kids tests scores don't show 5-10% improvement every year in every subject from the previous years ( and previous students) scores then I am labled a failing teacher and involuntarily transferred. If the school doesn't show improvement like that after 5 years it is closed. Now these tests do not take any other factors in to account. So the fact that 80% of our students are below the poverty line, live in single family often neglectful and abusive household, have severe emotional and physical problems, have parents not fit to raise rats, have drug, gang, and seriously severe attendance, and often have very poor attitudes toward education cannot be taken into account and we will be judged if we can't make these kids, who often come to us having attended less than 50% of the school year since 1st grade and can barely read and are far more worried about survival than fractions,show at 10% increase in their test performance each year. Oh and by the way 90% of the school has to show this 10% increase each year and the next year has to be 10% better than the year before and so on...Ok wow this is too long so sorry and ignore if you want!

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

PHOENIXROSE

Saturday, July 1, 2006 4:47 PM

Ms. G...
Also to your principal.

I wish I had gone to your school.

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FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 4:50 PM

Not too long at all. This is a serious issue that affects *everyone*, whether they know it or not, and whether or not they have kids.

It's that love that you give that heals and compels them. Drama speaks to everyone. I'm sure it's one of your strengths that you're a theater person.

I can well imagine the horrendous and totally unfair pressure that you and other teachers must feel under the Draconian -- worse than Draconian -- rules currently in place.

I'm glad that you work with a great faculty.

I think that a lot of problems that kids are diagnosed with, including ADD and ADHD, are really mainly symptoms of problems in the home.

I have to really respect the incredibly difficult job that you have taken on and do so well!

13

Saturday, July 1, 2006 4:54 PM

What she said. Too bad y'ain't teachin' my school...yarrgh, but we all can't be blessed with saintly teachers.

-------------------------------------------------

'It's Braedan. With an A.'

'Shiny moments aren't a destination any of us get to, and stay put forever. They're unknowable, brief flashes in time. That's what makes them shiny.' -GorramReevers

PHOENIXROSE

Saturday, July 1, 2006 5:09 PM

I personally think that ADD and ADHD, when they aren't misdiagnosed, are more a symptom of too much sugar in the diet than anything else. That's of course not a very popular theory; no matter how many studies say that diet affects health, society insists that drugs are the answer. It makes me sick.
We got a little off topic, didn't we? That's ok, though.

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FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 5:17 PM

I don't know; maybe it's a different kind of imponderable.

Sugar and poor diet can be a factor, as can emotional distress, brain development that's been affected by things like too much TV, and even stuff like the loss of recess time in school.

We bring all that we are, all that we know, and all that we have experienced into everything we do, from our jobs to our sexual relationships.

PENGUIN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 5:24 PM

PHOENIXROSE

Saturday, July 1, 2006 5:25 PM

It's true.
Another unpopular theory I've heard is that complications from early vaccinations can lead to development issues as well. Also that they can mess with the immune system. I'm glad my mom's knowledgeable enough not to have done that to me as a very small child/baby.

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FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 5:27 PM

Very cute! Or, it could just be a distracted multi-tasker!

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 5:30 PM

PhoenixRose, I spread out my daughter's immunizations because of that uncertainty factor. Kid's nowadays get way more shots than they used to -- like when I was a kid. Although, due to the international moving around, I got more than most!

COPILOT

Saturday, July 1, 2006 5:49 PM

AD ADHA-My uncle was diagnosed last year and he's nearly 40. I also knew a lot of kids in the school days who had it. Or rather they were hyper or cafinated and the stupid adults didn't want to deal with it. On the diet issue have you actually seen what they feed kids in public school lunches?!? It comes in barrels and the ingrediats arn't even remotly nutritious. Also soft drinks in school?!? Soda is one of the largest contributers to childhood obesity!

Okay so I was a fat kid back in the day. I understand the pain and it is a form a child abuse to let your children become way overweight! It's also child abuse to use your childs weight against them untill they develope eating disorders! Also happened to me. Sorry this is way off topic....or is it?

MSG-You are amazing! If only more teachers were like you. I absolutly hate hate hate that people keeping teaching for 20 years after they just give up. And standerdized testing is wronge! Very wronge! When was the last time you met a standard person? My last year of high school had probably 3 maybe 4 straight weeks a year of nothing but standardized tests! And these crazy surveys! I think they were to develope new statitics about teenagers and drug use.

The #1 cause of teenage drug use is standerdized testing! Just a little humor to end my rather long rant.

An I carried such a torch

MSG

Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:07 PM

Um I actually have A.D.D. and as it is now diagnosed using brain scans I think we can safely say it's not the sugar or the parents. i think it is over diagnosed, and parents and poor diet can make it worse, but I can now be clinically diagnosed as a disfunction of the frontal lobe combinant with parietal lobe damage...it's really an actualy disease same as any minimal brain disfunction. I certainly don't think any hyper kid who has trouble paying attention has it. If it's really A.D.D. it will come with memory problems, disassociative episodes, problems with visual processing, and severe impulse control problems ( for example one of mine who tried to remove his cast with a circular saw because the impulse struck him when the cast was itchy)

EDIT_ oh yes it is copilot...it may actually cause teacher insanity too...there's nothing like being locked in a room with 15 squirrly kids with impulse control problems and being forced to keep them on task and totally silen for hours.....it's like hell only longer:)

EDIT- oh and phoenix way to go for your mom. They have just done research that shows that one strain of autism is caused by the vaccines! sso yes your mom is wise!!
I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:08 PM

I agree, CoPilot, large amounts of soda are a systemic poison. I think that soda being so widely available -- and often, nothing else -- is a big contributor to the rising weight of the general population.

Eating disorders are really hard to deal with. I think that's partly because we must eat. It isn't something that can be given up completely.

Physical well-being, mental health, and body image are all important aspects of life and do affect us as we look for love and relationship.

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:20 PM

MSG, it sounds as though you have your ADD under control.

I do think it's overdiagnosed. Years ago I had a neighbor who took in foster kids. One of her boys was ADD and he definitely needed his Ritalin.

On the other hand, I had an acquaintance who went through a divorce and, during that stressful time her 12 year old daughter was diagnosed as ADD. Um, no. The girl was under a lot of stress at a critical developmental time and needed a sympathetic ear. When she was about 14-15, I had her babysit for me at times. So, I knew the girl rather well. Her biggest problem was her nutty mother. At about age 16, she went to live with her Dad, which helped.

Ooh, I hope that child with the cast was all right! I hope he didn't hurt himself badly.

MSG

Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:25 PM

yeah he was fine the shop teacher hit the kill switch before he got to it..WE're all kind of used to it with this particular child...can't look away for a min or he'll be wedged in something, stuck to something, or injur himself...that cast by the way was his 4 broken arm in 7 months ( no his parents aren't abusive at all) He's a great kid but has the impulse control of a drunken gnat:)which is exacerbated by being 14 years old.
Yeah I have when parents just don't want to actually face their kids probs so they medicate them to shut them off...Se there are ADD kids bu if it comes up suddenly in combination with other probs...WRONG that's so Wrong
Yeah dealing with my kids I have piles of the funniest stories:0 love my kids, but boy do you have to be top of your game

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 6:36 PM

MSG, you must have phenomenal amounts of energy!

I'm glad the boy was OK. 14 tends to be a tough age in any case!

SERYN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 8:51 PM

PR, cheers for correcting that quote! Funny thing is, i've never read or seen either the play or othe movie, so i'm wondering now where I got the quote from.

Ah well, my brain is a mystery to me.

MSg, Don't worry about the needing to rant about bad the educational system is, my father is a teacher who, as he is the only one willing and capable to do it, gets sent the 'problem' kids (ADD etc) to sort out. You two could probably get some wonderfully cathartic phone conversations going.

And as a little example of how bad thing are - in a report on gifted children 'imaginational' is used. What happened to good old 'imaginative'?

Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

MSG

Saturday, July 1, 2006 9:05 PM

actually I think I'm just crazy, but the energy does help...speaking of which, I am off to the gym, but I'll check in later HUGS to all:)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

COPTERDOC

Saturday, July 1, 2006 9:08 PM

It's a shame I pay thousands a year in federal,state, local,sales, and property tax that goes to the local schools. Yet I still have to pay 400 a month to send my little girl to a private school. Don't get me wrong she is worth every penny and I would pay it if it were double. The problem is that the public schools lower the standards to the more challanged students level so they can churn them out, thus dragging down the more intelligent kids. They should be trying to lift everyone up to a higher standard. I think the root of the problem is parents who don't get involved in their kids school. They look at schools as baby sitters not a place to learn. If their kids aren't learning it has to be the schools fault not theirs. Just my .02 Sorry if I see a soap box I have a bad habit of jumping on it. I'm trying to back off a little on that.

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 9:25 PM

I think the public schools are trying to deal with too much, overall. We all pay those taxes. It gets eaten up by bureaucracy and bad ideas like many of the ones in the "No Child Left Behind" laws.

The public shools are being asked to be all things: teaching English as a second language, having gifted programs, having special ed programs, etc.

Despite my natural inclination to be supportive and understanding of the public schools, we felt forced out because they couldn't deal with our child. She is more important to me than a theoretical ideal.

COPTERDOC

Saturday, July 1, 2006 9:29 PM

I understand and agree completely. We all want that perfect world, While I was looking for it the real world snuck up behind me and bit me in the ass.

"I do, but I like to hear you say it"

"They ain't all cuddly like me."

SERYN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 9:30 PM

Trying not to sound like a smart-ass, there's been no conclusive proof of links between immunisation (which has been practiced since the Victorian era, where as ADD etc has only become an abnormally widespread problem in the last few decades) as far as I know anyway - for every credible study saying yes, theres an eqally credible no.

Its actually really dangerous to not immunise on the chances that it might tip the balance a little, as thousands of parents in this country are now learning - After the MMR jab was linked to autism and seriously sensationalised by the media. Now we are facing a measle epidemic of proportions not seen since the Victorian era - and thousands of children have absolutely no protection against a potentially deadly disease.

I'm not saying that immunisation is totally safe - we're feeding the body a virus, thats got to be doing something, but even the original report that made the link was only saying 'may increase chances...' balance that against '___ pox, rubella and measles will significantly harm, and possibly even kill you' and i'm going to go with the immunisation.

Besides which, i'm firmly convinced that these 'disorders' (and here i'm moostly talking about the hyper kids who are misdiagnosed so the docters can give them drugs and get rid of them) are a symptom of the modern lifestyle - pesticides, growth hormones, additives ingested by the mother even before the child is concieved, then all the bad diets, chemical exposure and over stimulation after they arrive. And sadly, we can control diets, but everything else is out of our immediate hands - we can do something about it, but it will take decades, even centuries to clear the chemical congestion from our soils and water supplies.

Oooooh! soapbox is going away now! I do apologise.

Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Saturday, July 1, 2006 9:30 PM

Speaking of quotes Seryn ... is that one about the robot from 'Bones'? I'm trying to remember where I've heard it before!

Desktop Hippie

SERYN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 9:32 PM

yep, hodgins says it to Zack(?) I just loved it.

Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 9:46 PM

Seryn, you appear to misunderstand about the Hoagies link. It's a link to a series of articles that describe Kazimierz Dabrowski's theories on Over-Excitabilities and how that relates to giftedness. Imaginational OE is his description of one of the 5 OEs that he identified and studied. It isn't a report about gifted children. The Hoagies website is a set of resources, really. There is a lot of information there – much more than just the one section on Dabrowski.

If a child were being described, of course that child would be imaginative.

I surmise that you are gifted, too.

As it happens, I work for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). I am a contract specialist, not a public health specialist, but I am surrounded by the information.

I did get my child fully immunized, I just spread it out over a longer period of time. Kids get more than 20 injections now in their first two years. When I was a kid, I think the norm was 8. I'd have to look it up to be sure.

SERYN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 10:00 PM

Oh no, I didn't mean it quite in that way - The study sound like a valuable one, and of the actual theories, it all sounds good. It was simply the use of 'imaginational' and this sudden yen people have developed for simply inventing words (I looked all over, the oxford english, and american dictionarys on the net, its not registered)

Tony the Phony, every time he makes up some knee jerk idiotic policy to screw something or someone up worse than before, can't resist the impuls to start inventing words. It was just a little silly that people feel the need, when the word 'imaginative' is totally correct and appropriate.

(you also caught me at the end of a week where promotional materials for a new museum were written in english I wouldn't accept from a primary school pupil. Its truly appalling, and yet more proof that the people swanning around lording it over us and reckoning they are so great earning three times as much as us for those two hour lunches couldn't find their own arses with both hands and a sherpa.
I mean, this wasn't one persons mess up, through all the processes not to mention a basic proof reading, SOMEONE should have picked up on it. But no one did, the entire bloated, inefficiant, overpaid department is culpable.

I'm not gifted, i'm just a retard with a thesaurus.

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 10:23 PM

Seryn, my guess is that you *may* be like my daughter: gifted and learning disabled. Her disabilities are on the dyslexia spectrum, but she isn't classically dyslexic. That means she can read well, but she can't spell, has difficulty writing, and has some dyscalculia.

Being "twice exceptional" like that can be especially frustrating. It is for her.

I understand completely how you feel about poorly written documents -- especially promotional materials!

Giftedness and perfectionism often go hand in hand.

For the record, Dabrowski was Polish and was doing his research a few decades ago (he died in 1980 at the age of 78). Jargon is common in psychology and other fields. You should see some of the "Governmentese" that I wind up dealing with!

SERYN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 10:50 PM

oh i can imagine.

yup, dyslexic. huge vocabulary, but only on written,(however I think most of my typo's are down to crappy fingers) I rarely speak how i write, as i have most of my problem with verbal communication. Can't. Sentence. Properly. Dyscalcula and dyspraxia as well. Ask me to do a sum and my mind goes totally blank and i fall over.

I don't know, I was getting all these scores and everything in the tests, but most days I am actually just a total idiot.

Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 10:59 PM

It's not possible for you to be a total idiot. You're too wonderfully intelligent and interesting for that. You have a brain glitch that makes a certain aspect of communication difficult for you.

I write better than I speak, but it's because I'm an introvert. There are good aspects and bad aspects to that. I think most everything has an upside and a downside.

My daughter is mildly dyspraxic, too. In June, we had her go through the Davis method of Dyslexia Correction Training, with a trainer who lives in the metro Atlanta area. I won't know for a few months how helpful it was overall. It did seem to have some immediate benefits.

We all have *something* that we have to deal with.

SERYN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 11:13 PM

did you hear that a travel sickness medication that they routinely give to astronauts has been used and is apparently brilliant at combating dyspraxia?

Something about dyspraxia bieng linked to the inner ear (which makes sense, as a lot of it has to do with balance) and the tablets going someway to correcting it. But someone (and this is a friand of a friand thing, so its probably wise to ignore it) was telling me that that her cousin had been prescribed it as a trail, and the results were almost instantaneous.

Interesting tidbit anyway. I'm not seriously dyspraxic, plus, they don't do things like corrective training or helping you if its not going to kill you in this country, so i have a fabulous collection of scars, (to which this evening i added another burn!) and a neverending stock of amusing anecdotes about my face hitting concrete in case of a lull in conversation.

See how i'm focusing on the positive?

And it is possible to be a total idiot. my main problem seems to be that i'm completely out of it - I just seem to have this whole other world going on - pick any subject and i'll start endlessly waffling about something that has nothing to do with it at all. I take the road infrequently travelled, march to a different beat and i'm away with the sodding fairies.

I mean I like it, I love the way i don't think like anyone else around me. But the sad truth is it earns me weird looks and makes essay writing a bitch.

Ah well.

Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Saturday, July 1, 2006 11:26 PM

Now I see what you mean, Seryn! I also tend to live in the world of my own mind and imagination.

I had not heard about any medication being useful to counter dyspraxia. What is it called?

The Dyslexia Correction Training is something that I determinedly pursued on my own. The dyslexic man -- Ron Davis -- who came up with it has written at least two books. One is called "The Gift of Dyslexia."

Here's the Davis Center's website: www.davisdyslexia.com

I see that you use a finely honed sense of humor to help you cope!

KPO

Sunday, July 2, 2006 12:36 AM

Ok, so the past month or so i've been following this series of threads with some interest but have been quite busy and haven't articulated any views of my own.

And now I'm leaving the site (leaving university and its free internet connection - will pop in and lurk every so often though) so I'll quickly run through my responses to some of the imponderable queries now.

The female figure:

The stick woman with large breasts is by no means the ideal female figure, for me. I don't have much to say against large breasts, mind. If a partner of mine had a very large pair and suffered strain because of them, I'd support her in getting them reduced and probably wouldn't pine their loss unless the new pair was below a C.

Skinny makes me uncomfortable. healthy is best - what I think a man is wired to look for when he looks for a woman to bear his children. Fat is a turn off I'm afraid, but you are nice and plump for a while before you are 'fat' I'd much rather women err on the side of plump. Watched an interview with a lady from desparate housewives who said about a bedroom scene she did in that show where she didn't eat food for 3 days before it to make sure she would 'look her best'. Then the interviewer congratulated her telling her she 'looked great' in it. This really outraged me.

Make up:

I think it can always make an improvement, if done right. Do it so you still look natural.

Ladder theory:

I reckon you can attach most men to this theory. Myself included, now that I think about it, subject to constraints such as being in a relationship and whether it would jeopardise the friendship. Huh. Anyway, this doesn't mean I don't value my female friends' friendship.

This theory is more of a commentary on women then, right?

The divinity of women (whether they ought to be worshipped):

Not for me. I like them, and see them as superior creatures in some respects (talking about feminine traits I guess, since women can be quite manly and vice versa). Anyway, I agree with seryn that men are simpler, and I think there's a beauty in that. We're very functional right down to how we are physically built. Women are built more with aesthetics in mind - one definite way that they're superior. Emotionally superior too, and beautiful because of it, but also more fragile. Overall, just different.

As for the worshipping thing, I don't see that women are intellectually or morally superior, so don't like the idea of submitting to or revering a partner. The fact that some women turn out like YoSaffBridge is a good reason why women shouldn't be worshipped.

Hmm, that's all I can think of for now, I'm done opining

LITTLEALBATROSS29

Sunday, July 2, 2006 2:29 AM

Seryn,
I believe you just described what I feel like on most days. I just never put it into words. I understand very well where you're coming from here. It's not an easy path .
Faeries are nice though, as long as they don't bite.

Bryce
*******************************************

I swallowed a bug.

STILLFLYIN

Sunday, July 2, 2006 3:08 AM

On the topic of being in another world: I am quite possibly the most oblivious person in the world if I'm not paying attention. If I am reading or even thinking reasonably hard about something else, I will be completly unaware of anything that is going on around me. Its become quite a joke among my family.

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE

Sunday, July 2, 2006 3:18 AM

Quote:
After that little post, Ms. G, gotta say I'm liking Canada a whole lot more.

I hate to pull the discussion back around to this, but I just had to say something. I grew up mostly in the US, but my family did spend a year and a half in Ontario, Canada when I was in middle school. We left 13 years ago, and our family *still* has not recovered from what we experienced there.

My brothers and I were bullied every single day of that year and a half. I've talked with other people who were bullied and had other stressful experiences during elementary and middle school, but I've never heard anything quite as bad as what was done to us.

I have only in the past few years gotten over the minor case of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (lost huge chunks of time, would have flashbacks to it when triggered by something, etc.) those years left me with. There are still things, foods particularly, that I must avoid because of the memories associated with them. The first of the three autoimmune diseases that now rule my life started due to the stress there -- Alopecia Areata. Over 50% of my hair fell out, and the school WOULD NOT let me wear any sort of hat to school. Once you have one autoimmune disease you are at much higher risk for others, so I can't help but wonder what my life would be like now if I hadn't gone through this.

I was subjected to sexual harassment from my fellow 6th graders on a daily basis. (Years later, in high school back in the States, a boy was put on warning of expulsion after I complained about what he was saying to me, and it had been much milder, btw.) When I finally hauled off and punched one of the boys in the nose, *I* was the one who was suspended.

The moment that I believe pushed me over the edge into PTSD happened one day on the way home from school. The bus was segregated by grade, so I was not allowed to sit with my two younger brothers. The youngest was in 1st grade at the time, and so sat at the very front of the bus. When the bus stopped at our street, the older brother and I got out, but not my youngest brother. The bus started to pull away, so we waved for it to stop, and I went back on the bus to get my 6 year old brother.

I found him three seats behind the bus driver -- in clear view of her mirror. He had two older boys on top of him. He was blue. They had been covering his nose and mouth for who knows how long. I don't remember shoving the boys off of my brother, but I must have. After I made sure my brother could breathe and talk, I remember looking at the bus driver in the mirror. The look she gave me was pure hate. She didn't move to help the 6 year old child who had almost been suffocated to death right behind her. She didn't say a word to us as we got off.

When my mother called the school and demanded that bus driver be fired, the school refused.

A few months later that same brother was shoved off a playground structure into gravel, so hard that it broke his jaw and imbedded gravel into his chin. The principle and the office staff had him sitting in the front office for three hours before they called my mother.

I know all of my siblings have been shaped by what happened to us there, even the younger three who were too young to remember it. All six of us swear we will never send our children to public school. We have views on school shootings that are probably not the most PC. We are fiercely protective of each other. The youngest of my siblings just finished the 7th grade, and has decided to go back to being home schooled. Can't say I blame him -- and my blood pressure thanks him.

My point in this is not to condemn Canada. Not in the slightest. I have an aunt whom I love dearly who is Canadian, many Canadian friends, and I would have gone to college in Montreal had I not met my husband just before I got the acceptance letter. It would be silly to blame an entire country for the actions of a handful of individuals.

My point is that children can be bullies no matter where in the world you are. Teachers can cho

PHOENIXROSE

Sunday, July 2, 2006 3:33 AM

Lord and Lady, CK, I don't even know what to say about that. I thought I'd had it pretty bad with teachers looking the other way, but at least if it was serious physical harm they would do something about it; even if I was also punished for retaliating. Emotional, not so much. I don't know if some people just can't reckognize that for what it is or what. I tried to live by the "words can never hurt me" policy, but we all know that's not really true.
I'm impressed that you can be as cheerful as you are, though that is the best way to deal with things like that, it's not at all easy. I commend your family for making the choice to private or home school; my mom pulled me out of certain subjects and home schooled me because I was going batty not being able to actually write as well as I knew I could. Had to leave me in public school part of the time, though, since she's never been a math wizz and there were other required classes she'd never had to take.
Anyway, I digress. I think it's a good decision to do something like that, though I always think that warning teens especially that life is not always easy sunshine and roses would probably be good too. It's hard to strike the balance between too sheltered and traumatized.
Do you do breathing excercises or anything? I'm wondering how someone deals with flashbacks and other such episodes. Also, what are flashbacks like? I've thought I've had them, but could never tell since I tend to have a very vivid memory/imagination anyway. Sorry if I'm prying too much, you don't have to answer.

**********************************

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE

Sunday, July 2, 2006 3:56 AM

Hey Rose, thanks for replying. I had just started wishing I hadn't posted all this, heh. I tend to over-share, I think.

It's been about 5 years since I had a flashback, and there wasn't much I could say about them even at the time. It was like there was an area of my mind that was blocked off by big doors, and sometimes they would just open. It's usually smells that do it, but sometimes other things. I would remember things that I couldn't remember the rest of the time, and scream and cry about it, mostly. So my memories of the flashbacks are odd -- I remember what I said and what I did, more or less, during the flashback, but none of what I was thinking.

Most of my work in getting over the PTSD (though I'm not sure you can so much "get over" it as "get to a better place", but whichever) has been in calmly reclaiming those memories from behind the big doors in my mind. For a long time I didn't remember any of the incident on the bus, but I would have nightmares about the bus starting to pull away, my brother being blue in the face, and that look the bus driver gave me. It took a lot of time to get all the pieces back, and because I focused on the memories that would make me so upset during a flashback, there are still little things my siblings will say to me, "Remember when this happened?" and I'll have no memory of it. (We spent an entire month one fall feeding migrating geese, apparently.)

To get through the flashbacks, I would use something to ground myself to the here and now (usually a person, but other things work), and either talk it out or write it out, and allow myself to cry, but not to scream. The biggest thing that helped though was just getting the memories back so they are there all the time, instead of lying in wait.

As far as being cheerful, I think I'm just stubborn, lol. I'm set on being happy, so gorram it, I'm happy! A lot of it has been about letting go of what I can't change -- whether my health or my past experiences -- and getting close enough to people to talk about how I really feel about it. My husband has been wonderful for that, as have my siblings as they've reached adulthood.

The major thing I'm working on now is clamming up vs. over-sharing. I'm trying to find a happy medium, lol. For a long time acquaintances didn't know I was sick. I would decline invitations, make some excuse, whatever, but I just couldn't bear to tell anyone. Last fall I started being upfront about it (good thing too, what with the cane use now), and now I can't quite seem to not wear it on my sleeve. Seems to apply with other things too.

Ah well, we're all learning, right?

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Sunday, July 2, 2006 4:01 AM

Oh, my, God, CaliforniaKaylee, what a horrible story of abuse! I can well understand that you and your siblings suffered PTSD.

It's awful to be victimized and then be punished on top of that! I'm glad that you got to your little brother in time, but, how terrifying!

PHOENIXROSE

Sunday, July 2, 2006 4:08 AM

I think wearing things on your sleeve is better than never talking about them. I'm trying to be even more up front with people in the hopes that I might talk to some people I don't know. I'm trying to be able to just go up to someone and say "You seem very interesting. I'm Rose." Can't get there yet. I will talk endlessly and honestly with someone I know, it's the meeting them that's the issue. Oh well.
I guess I haven't really had flashbacks because I remember everything, though sometimes things will trigger a memory. Scent is supposed to be the sense most connected to memory, but it doesn't seem that way to me. It can be anything. Songs and visuals in particular spark things that I would prefer not to think about. Not that I've forgotten, but that I don't want to think about.
Talking about it seems to help.

**********************************

SERYN

Sunday, July 2, 2006 10:40 AM

CK, you have the makings of a Saint! I was bullied but not nearly as badly as you, I suffered no lasting effect other than some personality deficiencies, yet i stilll get sour about it. To have gone through all those horrid experiences and still be suffering the effects and STILL be so cheerful and spirited! I'm surprised you don't have a bunch of guys in fancy robes and silly hats knocking on your door.

Still, i think that whole Church of Firefly that people joke about has its first candidate for canonisation.

Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

PENGUIN

Sunday, July 2, 2006 12:09 PM

*gives everybody a big healing hug*

SERYN

Sunday, July 2, 2006 1:30 PM

A penguin giving hugs, I have to admit thats an intriguing prospect...

I jest, hugs are marvellous, I shall get out of the way!

Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

TRISTAN

Sunday, July 2, 2006 3:26 PM

Morning, all!
Boy, I'm gone a day, and now I have a bit of catching up to do.
I'll hit the education, as that seems to be the hot topic of the moment. Y'all have some horror stories, and my heart hurts that you had to endure what you did.
I am the product of at least half a dozen school systems in Arizona, Texas, France, and Alabama. I cannot complain about the content of my education, as I was able to get through all the lower grades and Masters level of college without any remedial training. My weakness is in mathemtics...I am sorta like Seryn: present me with a math problem, and watch me go into vapor lock. Not pretty.
I had almost always wanted to be a teacher, and decided in 2002 or so to go into the Education program at the University. I already had a Masters degree in History, so I decided that is what I would like to teach. By this point, No Child Left Behind was a major issue, and was causing problems for the administrators in the Education college...class requirements seem to go through changes every semester. The professors had no idea what was going on, and basically stopped really caring; they were just going through the motions when teaching the class, because the curriculum could change at any time. A year and a half into the program, I was frustrated and not wanting to be in an education system that had a problem teaching the educators...I shudder to think what my fellow classmates are currently doing to the US education system.
Now, it's possible that it would have been different at another University, but I was not willing to give it a chance. I am not sure who above me said it, but this system aims at the lowest common denominator and tries to process as many students as they can to keep funding (if they receive it), etc. I am a firm believer in private schools, though I am not always thrilled at their underlying religious base. I substituted at a private school in this area, and the students were happy, well-adjusted, and frighteningly intelligent. They were happy to be there (as happy as a young person is to be anywhere) and were learning, not just having stuff poured into their heads to regurgitate and forget at the next test. So, if I have children, I will not subject them to a public school.

Wow. Sorry, but that's what happens when I am gone for a day!

Glad to see some new screennames and the return of some we haven't seen in awhile!

______________________________________

PIZ

Sunday, July 2, 2006 4:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan:
I am a firm believer in private schools, though I am not always thrilled at their underlying religious base. I substituted at a private school in this area, and the students were happy, well-adjusted, and frighteningly intelligent. They were happy to be there (as happy as a young person is to be anywhere) and were learning, not just having stuff poured into their heads to regurgitate and forget at the next test. So, if I have children, I will not subject them to a public school.

Good choice.

There should be no government schools. All schools should be private. Parents could choose what kind of school to send their kids to. If they want religion in their school (though no one should want religion at all), it would be available. If not, that would be available too. The good schools would thrive, the bad ones would go away, and everyone would be better off. No one would be forced (and currently we are forced, quite literally at gunpoint) to pay for inferior performance, or for something they didn't want.

There are precisely three legitimate government functions. Outside those, we need to get government out of our lives in every way possible. Education would be a good start.

--
"That's what a government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

SERYN

Sunday, July 2, 2006 4:30 PM

I keep reading this, and having real problems with the terminology - as far as i'm aware 'public' schools are for the moneyed - where posh kids go to learn latin and classical history, network for future careers in merchant banks or parliment, and most likely get buggered to within an inch of their lives. I'm not even entirely sure what 'private' schools are - what Tristan said probably hold true over here St. Trininas style boarding schools, with an excellent standard and an overemphasis on the religious angle.
Most kids in this country go to state (i.e. local council run, government controlled) schools, which are the ones being dicked around and screwing up the futures of the bulk of the work force.

The lastest faboo all singing all dancing cure all { /sarcasm ] policy is turning state schools into 'academy's' - like my fathers school is now an academy of performing arts (and its catholic, oh the irony!) which meens that with millions of pounds worth of funding, they just built a theatre and refurbished the drama department, meanwhile non of the kids can bloody add up as the maths department is going to wrack and ruin.
sorry, slight tangent there...

But basically, is that how it is in the states? or is it slightly different?

Yes, maths, its like the little hamster turning the wheel in your head just suddenly give up the fight. Total lockdown, some times theres even tumbleweed.
Its not that Ican't do it, if explained to me i can understand the most complex of mathematical thories - its simply that I can't remember how to understand it - hell, i can't even remember how to do the tricks my dyslexia support tutor taught us that meant i didn't have to remember how to do it. It s almost like my brain goes into lock down for its own protection.
Blah blah blah, yadda yadda blah, oh how I do waffle!

TRISTAN

Sunday, July 2, 2006 4:39 PM

Seryn, sorry, we are speaking of American schools...private schools are not *really* regulated by State or Federal statutes, and can usually determine their own curriculum as long as "the basics" are covered. Public schools depend on local taxes for the most part, although some State and Federal funding exists. (Please, anyone, correct me is I have the funding part wrong) Public schools must follow rulings and laws across the board.
Does that make sense?

-EDIT-
Seryn, back to the math...I can do slightly complex figurings in my head, or on paper if I need to, in relation to armoring, costuming, etc. My problem comes if someone asks me directly to solve a math problem. If someone asked me to figure out the 15% tip on a dinner costing $63.22, I would freeze.
______________________________________

SERYN

Sunday, July 2, 2006 4:42 PM

yup, so your public schools are the equivelent to our state schools, and our private and publics schools and your private schools are all the same thing (as far as anyone here cares)

cool, got that sorted.

Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

PIZ

Sunday, July 2, 2006 4:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:
But basically, is that how it is in the states? or is it slightly different?

Here in the U.S., there are public (government) schools and there are private (non-government) schools. Public schools are, broadly speaking, managed locally, but policy is set at the state and federal level and funding is a mish-mash of tax dollars from all levels, mostly collected locally via property taxes and budgeted by the state, though a bunch of federal dollars (collected via the income tax) come into play (as does the "oversight" - i.e. control - that goes with those dollars).

No one is exempt from paying taxes for the schools, and school attendance is compulsory up to a certain age. Most go to Alliance - oops, I'm sorry, government - wait, no, public - schools, because they can't afford to pay for private schools (which get no government funding). Except for a few recent experiments, no one has a choice about which government school their children are assigned to or how the money they're forced to pay is spent. Though there is less control over private schools, even they must meet government standards and adhere to government regulations.

Our education system is fast becoming as succesful as the Soviets' agricultural system was. The more people continue to expect cradle-to-grave services from the Alliance - gorram it! I mean government! - the worse all those services will continue to get. Next on the list for destruction is probably health care.

This is, IMNSHO, still the best place to live, though increasingly that ain't saying much, about the U.S. and the rest of the world. I hope my kids don't live to see the Dark Ages return.

--
"That's what government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

TRISTAN

Sunday, July 2, 2006 4:47 PM

Piz, dead-on. Thank you. That's what I meant to say

______________________________________

SERYN

Sunday, July 2, 2006 4:50 PM

Government, Alliance, Goliath... its all much of a muchness.

*Apologies for the random Jasper Fforde injoke there - Goliath isn't quite the government, but it may as well be, its a giant corporation that has control over every aspect of life, literally from the cradle to the grave. Infact, thats one of their advertising slogans.

Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

PHOENIXROSE

Sunday, July 2, 2006 5:41 PM

There is a really great publicly funded, but kind of private, school here in Colorado. It's called the Denver School of the Arts (obviously, it is in Denver) and I don't know how they swung this, but they are funded by the government and yet behave like a private school. Students have to audition to get in, they have high standards, teachers who are generally artists themselves, and even a "major" program meaning that, from sixth grade on, students can pick what they would like to focus on. I had what I thought was a really great friend for awhile who went there, and I really wanted to go but it would have been a three hour drive every morning or something like that. Plus I didn't even find out about it til I was in 8th or 9th grade, which meant I would have been behind on the "major" program to a very extreme extent. Also on the math classes. Did I mention I'm pretty terrible at math, too? I seem to have a similar problem to a couple others here. I can remember a formula for awhile, and sometimes I can keep in my head exactly what it means, but usually not so much. And I really can't do much math at all in my head. And even when I have a calculator I have to have it quiet and then I have to figure out what I'm doing. D.S.A. had very high math standards and I might have crashed and burned since I wasn't in the program from the start. All water under the bridge.
Anyway, I wish there were more schools like that.

**********************************

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE

Sunday, July 2, 2006 6:54 PM

Just stopping by for a quick second before going out to lunch with the hubby.

Sainthood: Lol! Nope, no saint here. I'm far too feisty for that. Actually, feisty is probably the best way to describe me, and being feisty keeps me cheerful.

Public schools: I haven't done much reading on it, being on the opposite coast and all, but I've heard good things about New York City's magnet school program. From my very limited understanding of it, once kids in the public school system get to high school, they get to choose from all the high schools in NYC. They each have their own focus (drama, math, science, sports, English, the list goes on and on) and many require auditions to get in (either actual auditions as for drama or sports, or test scores for math, etc.)

What I've heard is that that has really turned NYC's school system around. Students having to work hard to get into the high school they want rather than just coasting by until graduation seems to make all the difference. But then, this is coming from *California*Kaylee, so maybe a Browncoat from out that way has a better view of it?

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

COPILOT

Sunday, July 2, 2006 7:47 PM

Okay so here it is.................
My coworker came by last night and was totally ummmmmmm hitting on and making out with me. I guess I like her I just cna't handle the girl stuff right now. ARrrgggggg so pretty so wonderious so very very closeted it makes me friking angry! And sad! And happy and arrrggggg! Yep that preety much covers it!

Also that is the only bad Canada story I've ever heard!

An I carried such a torch

PIZ

Sunday, July 2, 2006 8:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Anyway, I wish there were more schools like that.

If education was out of the gummint's hands there would be lots of schools like that. People would want 'em, so someone would meet that demand.

--
"That's what government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

PIZ

Sunday, July 2, 2006 8:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaliforniaKaylee:
Public schools: I haven't done much reading on it, being on the opposite coast and all, but I've heard good things about New York City's magnet school program. From my very limited understanding of it, once kids in the public school system get to high school, they get to choose from all the high schools in NYC. They each have their own focus (drama, math, science, sports, English, the list goes on and on) and many require auditions to get in (either actual auditions as for drama or sports, or test scores for math, etc.)

What I've heard is that that has really turned NYC's school system around. Students having to work hard to get into the high school they want rather than just coasting by until graduation seems to make all the difference. But then, this is coming from *California*Kaylee, so maybe a Browncoat from out that way has a better view of it?

It's a (very small) step in the right direction, but they're still gummint schools, so there are still guns pointed at the folks forced to pay for them.

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"That's what government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

SERYN

Sunday, July 2, 2006 10:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by copilot:
Also that is the only bad Canada story I've ever heard!

Bad Canada! Naughty Canada! What do you have to say for yourself?

I'm sorry, I really can't help it sometimes.

Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

13

Sunday, July 2, 2006 10:28 PM

CK: Some of the most vicious people I've ever known were a certain unholy circle I had the displeasure of encountering during my short stay in Ontario and Quebec a few months ago. Although I never witnessed anything as bad as that particular story, I have no doubt the people I speak of would've done the same thing. Complete morons and brutal, they tried to bully me, being the peculiar small-town Albertan. Took care of them separately, and then went back home to the Land of Small Schools and Cornfed Complexion.

What I'm trying to say is, the worst things I've seen and felt in my short life are closely connected to early childhood experience and the people and places I went to in the East.

I'm sorry that some people reading the last few threads will have taken a negative view of Canadians, although some of us (according to some opinions, myself) deserve it entirely.

If you ever need a good example of good Canadians, try my good ole town of Byemoor, Alberta. Look me up if you're there.

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'It's Braedan. With an A.'

'Shiny moments aren't a destination any of us get to, and stay put forever. They're unknowable, brief flashes in time. That's what makes them shiny.' -GorramReevers

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE

Monday, July 3, 2006 12:21 AM

Quote:
It's a (very small) step in the right direction, but they're still gummint schools, so there are still guns pointed at the folks forced to pay for them.

Well yeah, I'm not saying it's any better for the tax payers, just possibly better for the kids who attend the schools. Unfortunately, the needs of the tax payers and the needs of the children attending public schools are often diametrically opposed, so you're stuck with someone getting the short end of the stick. Not to say that there aren't solutions that would make everyone happy. As I've gotten older, I've come to support the idea of school vouchers more and more. I think we'll need some form of public education for the foreseeable future -- there will always be some child for whom the local private schools are not a good choice (ie, all the private schools are Christian, and the child is Muslim, etc.), and I think the government should provide an *option* for those children. But I also think that if someone wants to send their child to a specialized private school (religious or not), then they should be able to have their tax dollars go there. I think more people would send their children to private school if we had vouchers, and it would reduce the stress on the public system. I know people say that it would take money away from public schools, but only in proportion to the number of children no longer in the public system. And I think people without school-aged children (ie, my husband and I) should have their tax dollars continue to go to public schools.

Quote:
What I'm trying to say is, the worst things I've seen and felt in my short life are closely connected to early childhood experience and the people and places I went to in the East.

Lol, I think you may be right. I grew up mainly in Oregon, and the joke there was that Oregon, Washington, and British Columbia could form their own nation, and no one living there would notice the difference. I really do think that people growing up in the western US have more in common with people growing up in western Canada than they do with those growing up in the eastern US. I've never met anyone from BC or Alberta I didn't like.

Course, I have a handful of friends in Montreal and New York as well.

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Monday, July 3, 2006 1:36 AM

CaliforniaKaylee, I do have to agree with you that, as time goes on, I find myself supporting the idea of some kind of school voucher system. Even here in Atlanta's exurbs, the amount of tax money spent per child to go to school is over $6000. In the city itself, it's substanitally more. Even if the politicians wanted to make the whole thing more palatable to the voters by making the vouchers be about *half* of what is spent per child at the public school, I'm sure a lot of people would make the most of that amount.

Tristan, I, too, toyed with the idea of becoming a teacher a few years ago but found that, despite my degree plus (unfinished) grad school, they made the barriers too high. Also, that was at a point where my husband's career was severely affected by the dot bomb era, and we had huge medical bills and I just couldn't see taking the lower salary when I discovered that I could make more as a *temp* in my previous career field! I was stunned.

So, I took the temp job, and the rest is history. I would have *loved* being a teacher, though. Except for the bureaucracy. Which is kind of a funny thing to say, since I'm currently a professional red tape wrangler.

JAMESTHEDARK

Monday, July 3, 2006 2:56 AM

You know, when I actually looked up dyspraxia, I was kinda surprised how many of its symptoms lined up with me. Now, I have been known to self-diagnose with a tendency for the worse, but how many developmental disorders include social frustration and handedness-confusion (Yes, I constantly mistake left for right, and even if I know exactly how to get to a place, don't ask me to relate it in words)?

Now, I am a product of Canadian public schools. Yes, it is that bad, but I don't know if that's nation wide, or just in this reality impared corner of hell called the Maritimes. Some of the worst memories I have left after repression are of school and school related events. What's worse, most faculty on Prince Edward Island are either barely competant, or so overworked and over stressed that they don't care. I had the misfortune of being in a new teacher's class on the day the poor man finally snapped. It involved --- and I'm not telling a word of a lie here --- a bullhorn and a lot of language I'm sure even tenth graders shouldn't have been subjected to. That's just my experience (I actually found it kind of hilarious, but I sympathize with the poor man).
Moreover, in Atlantic Canada, private schools just aren't an option. On PEI, there's exactly two, and they're both ultra-right wing, ultra-Christian establishments that I still thank my mother for not subjecting me to. But I digress.

Getting back to the imponderables, what about body image? I know I'm not an Adonis, but for the longest time I was depressed about my girth. This coming from a man might sound a touch odd, but it's true. In my mind, I was always fat, and worse, I was always hungry (despite the fact that I never went without food). It took me a very long time to reach a point where I realize that I am not fat. Not thin, but not fat, either. Just kinda in the middle. Anybody else have breakthroughs in body image to share?

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I ain't lookin' for help from on high. That's a damn long wait for a train don't come.

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Monday, July 3, 2006 3:35 AM

JamesTheDark, I'm not surprised to find yet another member of this forum who exhibits signs of being "twice exceptional," i.e., gifted and learning disabled. It seems there is a strong correlation between the two. Also, it is my impression that this is a very intelligent forum, on the whole. I might guess that those who struggled (usually without knowing) with the twin demons of high intelligence or other gifts subsumed by frustrating limitations, those people would especially be drawn to the whole Independence aspect of Firefly.

In my own stubbornness, I am always looking for a way to overcome limitations, regardless of what they are.

Your body image question is excellent, but problematic for me. The societal norms and imperatives in the U.S. relating to body image are toxic, sometimes devastatingly so. But, I was raised by a European mother and an older father. During the Depression, it was a sign of good health and abundance to weigh a little more. So, growing up, I *never* got the message that I had to be thin. As a consequence, I was never overweight. And even though my weight usually fluctuated within about a 10 pound range, I loved my body.

And then came the surgeries. I was devastated the first time my skin integrity was ever breached. I struggled with body image because I was no longer whole. I am resilient, however. Though I am a roadmap of scars, it turns out that, once my husband came to terms with that, it doesn't matter much to me. Against all odds, I still have a whole life, and that matters most.

It sounds to me as though you have finally reached self-acceptance. I applaud that. It's important. And you know what? For the most part, we're all ordinary. We're not Adonis, or Venus, or some airbrushed celeb. Most of the celebrities don't really look like that, either, you know. We're being tortured by images that are artificially created in too many cases.

Even though we're all ordinary, we're also all beautiful. Being real and vibrant and alive is beautiful.

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, July 3, 2006 7:16 AM

I am of the opinion, trying to say this in the most modest way possible, that I have a perfect body. Not Hollywood perfect, actually perfect. I look, (again, trying to be as modest as possible) like a Goddess. A traditional Goddess. That is to say, I am well-rounded. I have round hips and round breasts and a round belly. I am the image of the child-carrier and the life-giver. There have been times when I've been thinner, and I still had that same round build, I just didn't have sneaky fat under my chin. I wouldn't mind getting rid of that... Anyway, that and the stretch marks I have from my growth spurts are, as far as I'm concerned, the only flaw in my body's appearance. I struggled mildly with body image when I was surrounded by the shallow in certain schools, and when due to whatever it was I wasn't getting asked out by anybody. But I think anyone who doesn't think my body is lush and gorgeous is too brainwashed to bother with anyway. For myself, I'm attracted to women built more like that, with the curves, though I have found the occasional slender women attractive as well. I wish I wish I wish there were more of us.

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WHITEFALL

Monday, July 3, 2006 9:04 AM

Ok, I just read this entire thread, and let me just say...

Wow. You folks are incredible. Just amazing. Of course some of you have, but it seems like everyone on this thread has known each other for years. Just amazing.

Ok, awe aside.... hmmm.... lemme get started. I'm opinionated, at least I think so. Where to start...

Oooh, theater. I love theater. Not as much for the content and the art, just as much for the people. In the last two years i've gotten involved with my high school's theater program, and it has been the most amazing experience of my life (though i guess that'll tell ya something about my life). These people are accepting, they are kind, they are loving, they are fun. And I love them. Ok, i'm a shy bastard, but still, i love them.

And a vast a majority are women (saying girls just sounds rude) and moving on to equality, gender stereotypes just get in the way. I was raised by my mother and two sisters, and I have a great respect for women, and I'll be damned if i'm gonna let my body ruin it for me. (sucks to my teenage wiring.) It's awkward, I'm not interested in dating at all, and i'm glad most of these theater folk understand that. I get along better with women, always have, and this whole chauvanist 'dating' nonsense is annoying. As for me...

Body image, meh, i'm a little on the fat side, I'm aware i'm not muscular, but that's for an obvious reason, i dont exercise, and i'm fine with that. I eat right, gorramit, ever since i started doing the basics of reading nutrition labels (just counting fat grams will work wonders, and peanutbutter is the root of all evil), and never mind diets, all it takes is a little willpower. As for body images for women? i dont care, never have, tho i admit too fat or too skinny is disturbing, though always work-aroundable. Whatever my stupid teenage hormones might think, any woman i'd like in the traditional romantic way would be a great intellectual, and preferably avoid all apparel low cut. I hate modern fashions, and i dont go around baring my manboobs (as we silly teens call them) to everyone, i (the person, not the bundle of hormones in me that the media caters to) dont want to see your female equivalent.

And if that sounded creepy... it really kinda was.

Now, public schools *breathe*.

So, i have nothing but respect for my local (that being bay area) public schools, though i know they are making budget cuts and our theater program is only barely on the list. we get by tho, and we are lucky enough to have a modern theater building to work in... some arrangement with the city, it's a working and renting theater, but the school gets to use it... well, as i may have mentioned, i love theater, and i'm lucky in my public school. (tho i did change across the district for it. what's a little travel time...) I will mention, especially in high school, an issue with a two track education system. i take a lot of AP and honors classes, and i've found myself never having classes with some people in my grade because of it, and this idea of the "smart kids" and the "...not smart kids" is hard to ignore sometimes. It's an issue, but i dont know how to comprare it to CK's, or the public/private. Always had random thoughts of being a teacher for little kids, i love them before they're annoying teens but after they're intelligent, if you know what i mean, but learning more about "No Child Left Unscrewed-Up" (I learned about it originally just because it allowed the military to see my personal info), i dunno lol. Btw, /salute to MSG.

Ok, that's mostly my rambling....

P.S. My theater troupe went to the Californian state thespian festival, and i wore my jayne hat all three days. it was awesome. a lot of flans are into theater. :)

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

PIZ

Monday, July 3, 2006 12:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaliforniaKaylee:
Unfortunately, the needs of the tax payers and the needs of the children attending public schools are often diametrically opposed, so you're stuck with someone getting the short end of the stick.

Need is not the proper criterion, rights are. Parents have the right to educate their children as they see fit, not as the government orders them to. And everyone has the right to decide how their life is to be expended, not how the government orders their life to be expended. The latter is to say that people expend time, energy, skill, knowledge, and talent - i.e. life - and, for the most part, convert that life very literally into money. So when they're ordered by the government to pay for things, they're being ordered to devote that much of their lives to those things. The important word there is ordered - there's no choice. If you don't, men with guns come and take you away, and it's legal for them to do that and, perhaps more importantly, illegal for you to try to stop them. Compare that to the recourse available to any so-called "evil" corporations when you don't want to pay for what they offer. Ads ain't guns.

Quote:
As I've gotten older, I've come to support the idea of school vouchers more and more.

Another tiny step in the right direction, but still government controlled, therefore bad.

Quote:
I think we'll need some form of public education for the foreseeable future

For the foreseeable future, I agree, although I'd change "need some form of public education" to "be stuck with some form of public education." We don't need it.

Quote:
there will always be some child for whom the local private schools are not a good choice (ie, all the private schools are Christian, and the child is Muslim, etc.), and I think the government should provide an *option* for those children.

No, government should not be involved in education. Perhaps this could be done during a transition out of the current system to a fully private one, but in principle government involvement is wrong.

Quote:
But I also think that if someone wants to send their child to a specialized private school (religious or not), then they should be able to have their tax dollars go there. I think more people would send their children to private school if we had vouchers, and it would reduce the stress on the public system. I know people say that it would take money away from public schools, but only in proportion to the number of children no longer in the public system.

Again, perhaps in transition, but that's all.

Quote:
And I think people without school-aged children (ie, my husband and I) should have their tax dollars continue to go to public schools.

No. No one should be forced to pay for this. Remember, under a fully private system you could voluntarily donate any amount you wished to any educational institution, so if you wanted to continue to fund education for people other than your own children you'd certainly be able to do so, and I have no doubt that many, many people would. But many would not, either because they can't afford to or they have other causes they'd rather fund, and those people should not be forced to pay for education.

(And, because I know someone is thinking this, it's the contributions of those who want to fund education that will cover the costs for those who can't afford to pay on their own. The U.S. is the most benevolently generous people in the history of the world, and there's no question in my mind that there would be plenty of money for education under a private system.)

--
"That's what government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, July 3, 2006 12:34 PM

I like that government is involved with education, if for no reason other than that whole "Church and State" thing; I don't think religion should have a place in education. If all education was privatized, there should be an option for every creed, up to and including atheist education; no mention of religion, just focus on fact. This is how the school system should be. While I agree the government messes up a lot, there's nothing wrong with the theory of government (tax) sponsored education. They just need to stop messing it up. Also stop trying to blur that line between church and state.

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PIZ

Monday, July 3, 2006 12:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I like that government is involved with education, if for no reason other than that whole "Church and State" thing; I don't think religion should have a place in education. If all education was privatized, there should be an option for every creed, up to and including atheist education; no mention of religion, just focus on fact. This is how the school system should be. While I agree the government messes up a lot, there's nothing wrong with the theory of government (tax) sponsored education. They just need to stop messing it up. Also stop trying to blur that line between church and state.

So you support that gun pointed at your head? Sorry to be so harsh about it, but that's what it comes down to.

You actually said it right, or very nearly, "If all education was privatized, there should be an option for every creed, up to and including atheist education." Change "should" to "would" and you have it. All those options would be available, voluntarily provided by those who believe what they believe. And as long as none of them try to force their beliefs on anyone else, they should and would be allowed to open their own schools.

I agree that religion ought not to be part of education. I go further than that and say that religion ought not to be part of anything. But I have no right to force that idea onto anyone else, any more than the religious have the right to force their ideas onto me. So I have no problem with them teaching their idiocy as long as I'm not required by law to adhere to it.

Separation of church and state means that the government cannot endorse any religion - it must conduct its affairs without reference to religion. That's not a restriction on private actions, and the religious are perfectly within their rights to believe whatever they want and act as they choose, as long as they don't attempt to force anyone else to go along with them. The key word is force, which is what they're trying to do via the government schools, which are ultimately backed by those government guns. If religion, of any variety, gains a foothold in the government schools, they will have the legal power to force others to conform to their beliefs. Private schools would never have that available to them, so the danger of anyone having religion (or any other belief someone doesn't want) forced on them would not exist.

Government out of education. Out of a lot more, too.

--
"That's what government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, July 3, 2006 1:08 PM

I don't support utter anarchy, if that's what you're asking. I don't support the government wholeheartedly, no, but a government is required to keep people from being at each other's throats. I think our government is messing up, but such is not always the case; we've had good administrations who made the education system better. I was lucky enough to have quite a few of my school years under such an administration, as I have heard a lot of stories recently that make my struggles in school look like a joke.
You say "would" as though it's a given, but it isn't. Nearly all private schools available right now are based in religion. Not just religion, but Abrahamic religion. That is a big problem for me, for reasons I would think are obvious.
And no, no religion of any sort should or will gain a foothold in government schools; that's what the separation of church and state is for. If you don't want such things to happen, vote against them; it's worked so far.
Anyway, you can't be only on one side of any issue. I'm sorry, but you are behaving as though there is only one right way, which is your way. I have long been of the opinion that if two sides of an issue could just meet that the solution would be far superior to what either side is suggestion by themselves. I think the idea of a blend between privatized education and public education is quite rational. Know why? Because choice is the basis of this country, and there should be a myriad of choice. That includes the choice to pay taxes for the government to do it's job and maintain facilities for education that you can then send your children to. The only thing that makes this a bad choice is if the government isn't doing its job. And whether it's doing its job depends entirely on the people in power. Who, I might remind you, are put there by a vote system. Yeah, that system also has its flaws. Nothing is going to be perfect. If independant thinkers would take one little voting lesson from the sheep and all try to vote for the same thing, then they would outnumber the organized sheep. This hasn't happened and isn't likely to, but that's not going to stop me from trying.

Is it just me, or did it get very RWED in here?

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TRISTAN

Monday, July 3, 2006 1:20 PM

Morning, all!

FireFromHeaven, I hope you are at least happy in your chosen field. I am; surprisingly enough. I couldn't actually see my self teaching right now.

Welcome, Whitefall! Not sure if you have posted before, but welcome to the thread.

And back to education: Piz, thank you for that exposition. I find myself agreeing with you. I really don't have much to add to your points.
As far as Church and State, I believe the two should never mix. I am an atheist, so that's sort of a given. As far as Church in school, it does have a place, but that place should be voluntary and have no impact on curriculum. There may be some of you who may argue with this...I understand. Just stating my opinion.

Generally speaking, when a group of people start debating religion or politics, things get nasty. While this subject seems to be going along smoothly so far, I ask all of you to take a moment and remember that this is the Male and Female Imponderable thread...stuff between the sexes. We have gotten off track before, but never into this area. I would really hate to see this degrade into a thread from RWE...
I love all y'all, just keeping an eye towards peaceful co-existence.

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FUTUREMRSFILLION

Monday, July 3, 2006 1:22 PM

Piz

You are right. I have no desire to work to pay for you - so from now on, you can not drive on any but private roads, or expect any help from the Fire and Police Departments. Make sure you don't apply for medicaid when you hit 65, never step into a National Park or Memorial, or expect any part of the Military or National Guard to protect you or your rights anywhere at anytime. Oh and God forbid you should ever have to use social services or have an attorney assigned to you.

If you live in a society, you have to help pay to keep that society. The childen are the future - I personally, would like to know that my old age will be in the hands of a qualified, well rounded young America. If the schools are nit supported and the curriculum in this country is not improved and more diverse, well one shudders to imagine.

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