Male and Female Imponderables--Once More Into the Breach...

POSTED BY: Tristan
UPDATED: Wednesday, July 5, 2006 20:33
VIEWED: 22291
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TRISTAN

Monday, July 3, 2006 3:53 PM

The next installment!
Let's try to stay away from religion and politics in this one, and stick to the important issues...males and females; the differences that make them who they are!

Previous thread:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=21918&m=331245#331245

Last thing we were discussing were fireworks, explosives, and humankind's innate need to destroy things...no, actually it was just about fireworks.

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PHOENIXROSE

Monday, July 3, 2006 3:58 PM

And body image! That one kinda got lost...

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PENGUIN

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:00 PM

Here's a neat little fireworks applet I have on my website. Just click inside the box and then go ooooooo and ahhhhhhh!

http://www.netwerkin.com/fworks/fworks.shtml

ODDSBODSKINS

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:00 PM

may have failed to notice the body image one, was it in the context of a male or female trait?

incidentally, fire is purdy ^^

MSG

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:01 PM

oooh love the new title:)
Ok so here's an imponderable...choice or movies. I know there's a generally accepted type of movie for a specific gender (e.g. chick flick) but do you ever had the problem that you and your SO just really don't have the same taste in movies. We have to just alternate who gets to pick the movie ( done oddly as the person whose turn it is picks 5 movies they like and the person whose turn it isn't picks from the stack of 5)because otherwise I'd be forced to watch French Kiss and Dave and my poor husband would be watching Deep Rising and Doom. There are movies we both like, but it more comes down to whose turn it is.

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

DEEPGIRL187

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:04 PM

I don't know if I'm alone in this, but I hate chick flicks. When I'm in any movie store, I head straight for the horror section. Flowery romance has never done it for me. Bring on the blood and guts.

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"What you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar."

TRISTAN

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:04 PM

Body image...how did I miss that?
My own self-image is alright. I am mostly happy with myself; I am a bit overweight and not heavily muscled (except in my legs), but I am strong enough to do what I need to. As for what I look for...I dislke stick figures. I love a rounded female form; not obese, just padded in all the right spots.

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PENGUIN

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:05 PM

And don't forget BOOBIES!!!!!

TRISTAN

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:13 PM

Penguin, hoo-ah on the Boobies!

Movies...the wife and I share mostly the same taste in them. We have a joke about the ocassionaly "cheesy horror flick night" in which we rent two or more titles we have never heard of. Those nights are always fun. I prefer action or drama, usually historic over modern, but I love a good shoot-em-up. There are some movies I have no interest in seeing, and the same goes for the wife. In cases like that, we rent them when the other has to work that day.

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PHOENIXROSE

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:13 PM

Boobies?

Shiny.

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VINTERDRAKEN

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:15 PM

Sofar ive had partners who have a similar taste in movies as mine. Wich is a good thing since I am something of a moviefreak and watching movies occupies a huge amount of my free time. Would be real hard for me to not be able to share my favorites with a partner.

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:15 PM

Penguin, your fireworks applet is shiny!

MSG, I mostly get to see kid (or "family") movies nowadays! So, that issue doesn't come up often.

DH and I love movies and love chewing them over afterwards. He still insists that Aliens 3 must be a chick flick, because I liked it and he didn't!

On the other hand, we do go to movies without each other if necessary. For example, he went to see Silence of the Lambs, and I didn't. And he refused to see Steel Magnolias!

When going to the theater just isn't an option, for whatever reason, like millions of others, we wait for the DVD to come out.

Of course, we were in complete agreement on Serenity!

Also, congratulations to your brother on his pending bio mechanical engineering degree! I think engineering degrees are among the toughest to earn. I say that advisedly because I was more the liberal arts type, with a strong interest in certain kinds of math and science. Please step away from the calculus....

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:19 PM

The only movies I tend to not like are horror. I'm a little squeemish. Action, though, I am all about. I'm not really into movies; I watched more movies with Ex of Doom than I ever had in my life up until then. He loved movies. Rarely did I not enjoy them, although he liked horror. I told him if we ever watched a scary movie he'd better be staying with me in case I had nightmares.
Yes, I still have nightmares from horror movies. Don't laugh.

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STILLFLYIN

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:20 PM

I'm into war movies and sci-fi, but Ive never found a girl who liked them, are there any out there?

TRISTAN

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:21 PM

Vinterdraken, welcome back! Where ya been, we missed you?

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PHOENIXROSE

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:27 PM

*raises hand*
I like sci-fi. Occasionally war movies, but they get a bit intense.

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ODDSBODSKINS

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:28 PM

too lazy to find it when i have to work soon, but either way is fine then ^^

not burdened with too many problems as regards my body image, am a skinny git and i know it, but i rather like the way i am. but the fact that i've given it some thought i s'pose would suggest that it's not an exclusively female trait to consider it (although i have to say, from what i've experienced, women tend to be less comfortable with the way their bodies look, or, more vocally uncomfortable with it). erm, rambling aside, definately not a trait unique to either gender (that's the idea of the topic right?)

edit: missed the subject changing completely.

PENGUIN

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
The only movies I tend to not like are horror. I'm a little squeemish. Action, though, I am all about. I'm not really into movies; I watched more movies with Ex of Doom than I ever had in my life up until then. He loved movies. Rarely did I not enjoy them, although he liked horror. I told him if we ever watched a scary movie he'd better be staying with me in case I had nightmares.
Yes, I still have nightmares from horror movies. Don't laugh.

I'm the same way...I don't like blood and gore and things that jump out at you! Gives me the willies and keeps me up nights!

PENGUIN

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:34 PM

Double post!

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:35 PM

StillFlyin, I think there are women who are into all kinds of movies! See the post from DEEPGIRL187 above where she likes horror movies and not traditional "chick flicks."

I think there are all kinds of girl geeks who like sci-fi! Me and my little girl included.

I like some war movies, but I'm selective about them. I think they hit me too hard; same with a lot of horror movies.

Although, I must confess that I loved Bubba Ho-tep!

PR, horror movies can still give me nightmares, too! I think there are a lot of reasons for that -- including excellent memory and vivid imagination! I've become less reactive with age and surviving real life, though. Even so, there are some things that I just won't see.

VINTERDRAKEN

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:36 PM

My computer went thermalnuclear on my me. When I finally got it running again I realised that I cant log onto the internet cause I cant install the drivers for the networkcard.

Its all really fubar. But ive borrowed my roommates laptop (as thanks for getting the internet running on it) So hopefully ill be around on the Imponderables again

Missed you guys and gals to

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

MSG

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:37 PM

hmm PR- hey The Ring kept me up for 4 straight days and I made the husband get rid of the dvd:) Mostly I like horror, action, and sci fi, though I have been known to like british comedies as well... It's just the Ring was seriously scary!
As for body image...strangely I actually have a better body image now than I did as a teenager when I only weighed 98 pounds ( I weight 125 now) I think partly women are more insecure because of media message. I mean look at Entrapment there's slightly potbellied, balding 60somethine Sean seen as massive hottie ( which he is) while his match is a then 26 year old wrinkle free perfect bodied Catherine Zeta Jones...but this only works on us if we let them!
EDIT- so who votes we smack all fashion designers silly???
I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

ODDSBODSKINS

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:43 PM

m'm, movies, got to say, i like most kinds of movies, mood-depending, but if i had to choose, i'd say my absolute favorite is either sweet, quirky comedies ('goodbye lenin' and 'the station agent' leap to mind) or really black-humoured comedies ('buffalo soldiers' say) but i've no objection to horror, sci-fi, most things really. even been known to stop being so self-importantly pretentious and watch the most brain-dead action i can find when i've time to kill! do tend to get a bit tired with rom-com's, but my gender-defying film liking is that, in spite of being male and straight, my mum managed to instill a great fondness for john cusack movies in me at an early age

TRISTAN

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:43 PM

Vinterdraken...ick, computer meltdowns suck. I am sorry you are having problems, glad you are here, and will patiently await your complete return. You've got a lot of catching up to do!

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PHOENIXROSE

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:46 PM

Hey, y'all (maybe) know how I feel about myself if you caught my post last thread.
Yes, designers are the bane of our existance. Let's slap them!
It's strange to me that large breasts are supposed to be "ideal" and yet it's hard to find bras and clothing that fit them properly (when they're real, that is, not sure about the fakes) I've managed, though. But there are still tops that show more cleavage than they're probably designed to, just because, well, there is more to show!

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DEEPGIRL187

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by msg:
hmm PR- hey The Ring kept me up for 4 straight days and I made the husband get rid of the dvd:)

I can relate MsG.

This is what happened to me when I went to see The Ring:

Warning! Spoilers ahead!

Select to view spoiler:

At the part where Samara is crawling out of the tv set to kill Noah, I proceeded to crawl over the armrest, squealing and clinging to my best friend in desperation.

Not one of my most glamorous moments, I can assure you.

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"What you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar."

VINTERDRAKEN

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:46 PM

Ive noticed, missed a couple of Imponderables by the looks of it.

And about movies. I like Sci-fi and Horror the best with Fantasy as a close runner up. Also enjoy thrillers and mysteries but im not to much for romances or comedies although I can find them entertainingly refreshing at times.

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

VINTERDRAKEN

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:49 PM

Saw the ring at the cinema when it came, didnt have any before info. When I finaly came home after spending a while at a friends place getting my nerves in order I turned on my TV, finding static. Didnt sleep much that night

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:54 PM

You know, I actually like sci-fi horror. "The Faculty" is one of my favorite movies ever. A lot of people didn't really like it, but I think there was a lot to the story that was overlooked. And comedic horror can be fun, although still a little disturbing. It's the straight horror I really can't handle.
I never saw the Ring. Or the Grudge. Or Dark Water. Or anything like that. Even the trailers creeped me out.

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NVGHOSTRIDER

Monday, July 3, 2006 4:57 PM

8MM. A true horror movie. I'd seen alot of messed up things as I grew up, but that movie seemed to bring alot home. Sexual exploitation is big buisness. I just wish there were a way to show people other than in movies where entertainment value and box offive numbers gauge the importance of material. A question for all of you: Does anyone feel even the slightest bit of giult when viewing adult material. I must admit that there is alot for me.

MAL: "What happen about me?"

VINTERDRAKEN

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:01 PM

Have you seen Even Horizon? Its a real freaky Sci-fi Horror movie.

I can feel some guilt when watching adult material, Not really that much into the stuff though.

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:02 PM

Guilt? Of the myriad of emotions I experience when viewing "adult" material, I would have to say guilt is not one of them. Fascination, warm tingles, amusement, occasional disgust... Nope, no guilt.

*edit* Can't say I have seen Event Horizon, no.
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TRISTAN

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:06 PM

Guilt in viewing adult material? No, not at all. I rather enjoy it at times, actually. Now, I am not a big fan of the weirder things, but I never feel guilt in seeing people naked.

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DEEPGIRL187

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:06 PM

I did see Event Horizon. I had to be eleven or twelve at the time. Scared the bejeezus out of me.

Watching adult material doesn't make me feel guilt. When I first looked at it, I did feel somewhat guilty, but not really anymore.

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"What you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar."

RUGBUG

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:09 PM

Well, I catch up with all of you only to have a new thread (did manage to be the last post on the other one, though).

Movies: I have to hang my head in shame to say I'm a helpless chick flick person. If there is a decent romantic comedy, I own it. And watch it...A LOT. My favorites, though, are always a little off kilter. Something that makes them not quite fit into the chick flick label. For instance: A Life Less Ordinary, Drop Dead Gorgeous (so funny, but totally overlooked), Down with Love, Elizabethtown, Home Fries, The Mexican, etc.

I'm pretty easy when it comes to movies, though. I will watch just about anything, and only expect it to entertain me. I don't need my movies to be great or make a statement. If they are or do, that's just fine, but all I require is to be entertained for 2 hours.

Horror is hard on me sometimes, though. I went to see Seven in the theater by myself, and had to come home to an empty house (all roommates gone for the weekend). That was tough. And lately The Grudge really freaked me out. I bought it out of the discount bin and I hate even knowing it's in my house. I need to just give it away. I do get real freaked out by the occult horror stuff out there. Slasher stuff is just fine, but add occult elements and I get the wiggins. You won't be catching me watching The Ring any time soon.

Adult material: I don't watch much, some ocassionaly soft core stuff, but yeah, I do feel a bit guilty. I personally find most adult material silly, though. The situations, the music, blah, blah, blah. Stuff like The Pillow Book is fine, but movies that reside behind the curtain in most stores just doesn't do it for me.

Body Image: I tend to look back and realize that I wasn't as bad as I thought. Like in high school, I thought I was a cow. Maybe 'cause the best friend was a size 0 and about 4 inches taller than me. My arms were bigger than here calves. But I look back now and see that I had a cute body. And into the more recent past, before I broke my arm I was always worried about how fat I was. Now I just wish I could get back there. If only I could maintain those positive thoughts in the present....

I have things I don't like about my body, (thanks for the legs, mom), and things I love (got great shoulders and decent chest) but in the end, this is who I am so....

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:10 PM

Well, ok, I was nervous when I started looking at some adult material. Only because school was the only place I had internet access and I was afraid I'd get caught. But it was erotic writing, so no one could tell.
This probably tells you a lot about the kind of girl I was. And am.

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FUTUREMRSFILLION

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:11 PM

When I saw the ring it was at home. As soon as the movie ended my phone rang. Scared the c"censored:p out of me!

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:18 PM

Oh, I should mention the religious horror movies, too. For some reason, this was the only thing about me that seemed to really bother Ex of Doom; I hate religious horror. Not because it's scary, but because it's so unbelievable to me that I am BORED out of my MIND when I see it. Seriously, I fell asleep watching the Exorcist, and almost fell asleep watching All Souls. Haven't seen one since.
Ex of Doom did not seem to believe this was why I didn't like them. He thought they offended me or something. Not really, they just didn't entertain me. At all. That kind of thing is not scary. I have to believe something is possible for it to be scary. The fact that zombies scare me more than Satan should tell you something.
The Skeleton Key looked downright terrifying to me, though, because voodoo is freak, freaky stuff.

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TRISTAN

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:22 PM

Oh, yes indeed, Event Horizon! For some reason, most of that movie is the scariest thing I had ever seen...yet, I could not look away. Not sure why, either, just really got me.

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DEEPGIRL187

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
The Skeleton Key looked downright terrifying to me, though, because voodoo is freak, freaky stuff.

You're right, that was pretty creepy, although they were practicing hoodoo, not voodoo. Voodoo (the actual term is vodoun, I think) is an actual religion, whereas hoodoo is more like folk magic.

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"What you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar."

PENGUIN

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Well, ok, I was nervous when I started looking at some adult material. Only because school was the only place I had internet access and I was afraid I'd get caught. But it was erotic writing, so no one could tell.
This probably tells you a lot about the kind of girl I was. And am.

I've been waiting for a place to put this smilie!

VINTERDRAKEN

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:30 PM

Just feel the need to digress from the topic a litle, just did the OkCupid test and i got Hi,

ZOE: Soldier
You scored 75% roughness, 50% intelligence, and 33% isolated!

Wich is odd since I always get Kaylee in onlinetests and IRL people say im more of a Wash person.

and back to one of the subjects..
Body Image: I used to be a anorectic (yes, we males get it to) so Ive had some really twisted ideas about my image in the past. Nowadays though I have a pretty good idea of myself and I feel good about the way I look.

You can’t stop the Signal.
Keep spreading the word about Firefly!

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Penguin:
Quote:

I've been waiting for a place to put this smilie!

Yepper, that's me!!!

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NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME

WHITEFALL

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:36 PM

Wow,i go away for less than 8 hours to... ya know... sleep... and theres a whole new thread!

First off, firefromheaven Thanks for... yeah, thanks.

Anyhoos....

Movies: Eh, the only movies i really cant stand are horror and straight comedy (interjected or hybrid comedy is fine, see all of Joss' work) because i just look at people screaming about closets opening, and people doing stupid things and i should laugh, and i think: 'why am i watching this? I don't need to see this...' Pretty much every other genre can have good characterization, but comedies where people do stupid things are just... stupid. (Drama's where people do stupid things are good. Sometimes. )

Body image? i talked about it before a bit... yeah, i think designers are silly, and /slap.

Guilty viewing adult material? well, yes, especially cause i'm not an adult, but beyond that superficial age thing, it just feels wrong, when i come up with an add for one of those dating sites that always have... women in them. Once again, i think "I dont need to see this..."

And guilty viewing 'adult material' in real life? damn right, because i'm reasonably tall, and almost all the women i know in my grade are shorter, so whenever they wear anything low cut, me looking at their face gives me a full view of... yeah, i feel guilty there, sometimes my obsession with looking at people's faces borders on the absurd, but, as i said before, i don't want to diminish your humanity as a sex object or whatever the term is, please dont make it something i always have to think about, and just wear something that actually spans the length of your torso... please?

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:42 PM

*pat pat* I hope you get more comfortable with it as time goes on, Whitefall. I admire someone not wanting to diminish someone's humanity, but just remember that sexuality is part of being human and shouldn't be ignored. It shouldn't be all you see, but it shouldn't be ignored. You're still young, though, and have plenty of time for all that to settle with you. Once you grow into your own sexuality you maybe won't be as nervous about another's.

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MSG

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:44 PM

yes fully clothed is a lovely thing, but it's hard...what with the difficulty in finding non lowrider jeans that don't look like Ma Kettle's hand me downs and every top a v neck ( which for those of us overly endowed is impossible not to flash others in) Does anyone else feel that in women's clothes there are starting to be only two options slutty or sexless...I'd like a third moderately sexy, but still not a $2 whore, look personally, but it's hard to come by:)
Side note- this may be the beginning of the horrifying fabric shortage in women's clothing that will obviously plague our land in the future( see the cover of an sci fi/fantasy novel for further explaination)
Oh and Rugbug- have you tried the movie Jack and Sarah..it's amazing!

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

NVGHOSTRIDER

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:45 PM

Tryin' hard not to be a thread killer here, but the reason I ask about the guilt thing is my concern for others. I don't think many folks these days put alot of thought into the reasons behind the films. Don't get me wrong, enjoying the fantasy is fine. It may even be healthy for most people. But what about the actors portrayed in the films? What are their issues? After a bit of research, many of them have no real underlying issues. Some of them have surface issues like the rest of us, (family, work, personal). But the rest have deep seeded issues that are only made worse by their work and the people they work for. This in no way is ment to preach against adult material. It serves its purpose in society. But like alot of other things (Drugs, guns, pop music) it has also twisted some already twisted people and made things a little less acceptable for the slightly more healthy individuals like you and I.

Weekend: Kids fine. Happy and healthy. No man-whoring. Didn't even go out and try. But its all good. Just a bit of ranting for a busy Monday morning. Alot of manipulation from my sister over the phone Sunday got me needing to vent.

MAL: "What happen about me?"

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:50 PM

That's a great question, NVG. I'm not really into porn myself. I'd rather watch something like 9 1/2 Weeks, or other similar stuff, if I'm going to wander that path.

What little I've seen, long ago, doesn't make me feel guilty. I think there's way too much societal guilt surrounding sex, and weight, and all kinds of stuff. We also get these terrible double-messages.

We are as we are, and that includes being complex sexual and spiritual beings. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I'd say they're inextricably intertwined. Because of that, I'd say that sexual exploitation and assault is a crime against not only a person's body and mind but against their very soul.

However, if no one is being hurt, there is value in exploration of all kinds, by ourselves and with SO's. I think we have to know ourselves, in all kinds of ways, in order to fully relate to others.

Watching porn can be one of those kinds of exploration. I don't think anyone should feel guilt about their sexuality or their interest in sex and sexuality anymore than we should feel guilt over an interest in mountains, beaches, or beautiful gardens. We are as beautiful as any other aspect of nature.

Of course, human beings can be devastatingly terrible, too, as can other aspects of nature. It's one of the paradoxes of our existence.

MSG

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:50 PM

NV-Vent away darlin...as for the adult stuff I figure we all have problems and we all make choices and maybe those choices are bad for us, but far as I know ( this is sticking to U.S. adult material) all performers have to show I.D. proving age 18 or older and no one holds a gun to their heads..so yeah maybe it's not the healthies thing for them to do, but at least they aren't crack whores:) I guess what I am saying is , as a general rule, I refuse to feel guilty for the poor choices of others, especially if the motivating factor for their choice was money....I mean we all like money, but most of us would rather work at McDonalds...and I know several strippers all of whom love their jobs and paychecks tons and don't feel the slightest bit exploited, if that helps:)
So HUGS you are such a sweet and caring guy!
EDIT- and after that eloquent statement..I have to go sponge some cat puke off the carpet ( don't ya just love pets)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

WHITEFALL

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:51 PM

Yeah, in my defense it isn't all i see, but it was also the topic, so it was all i wrote about. /shrug.

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:55 PM

MSG, it's just a matter of finding the right clothes. Oddly enough, fishnet under a low-cut top actually seems to make it look less slutty (which is strange to me, since I love the sensual possibilities of fishnet) plus there are tights to be worn with skirts that are above the knee. I can be completely decked out and still (I think, I hope) not look like a whore. Plus there are some really nice tops that are higher-cut and yet clingy, which are very lovely and basically my favorite thing. And I recomend (if you can afford them) stretchy jeans, because they fit nicely and are always comfortable, and cannot be low rise (which I hate with a passion.)
Plus, too, there is how you carry yourself. I'm not sure what it is, but there is a certain sluttiness to some walks. Maybe it's just an exaggeration in the moving of the hips; I really have no idea. But I have never been mistaken for a slut, a whore, a hooker, or anything like that (not that I heard, anyway) and I can still dress to please.

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MSG

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:57 PM

Whitefall hon it's ok...speaking as a short and overly endowed woman, I don't mind a quick unavoidable glance or two..I figure if I guy had a huge nose or an extra large set of hands or something, my eye might stray to that just in the facination of the difference...it's the blatent staring/leering that's a problem. I don't really knwo any woman who objects to a quick appreciative glance.It kind of makes me smile a little and makes me feel pretty:)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

MSG

Monday, July 3, 2006 5:57 PM

Dratted computer forced a double post...eeek
Sorry was checking on the baking and had to move the water and computer said it timed out so I hit post again and whammo nasty double post!

WHITEFALL

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:03 PM

I doubt anyone would ever say such it to anyone's face, "btw you look like a whore", it's just a thought process that bothers me, that our society encourages women to dress on the side of scantily clad, whereas men not so much. And then men look at women and... seems everyone is a loser here: the man imo should imho feel guilty about talking to and interacting with someone who is screaming sexuality at him without noticing, and the woman is just conforming (no offense intended) to her society, wearing what feels comfortable, and just living. I dont know how to explain it better, but it seems unfair to men. (or, if said man were one of those 'all about the body' types that supposedly exist, it's REALLY unfair to women)

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

NVGHOSTRIDER

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:03 PM

I feel you on that one. My problem is that I love eye contact. So when a conversation gets too good, (or boring), I tend to look at whatever interests me. The lack of adequeate fabric is always distracting when a conversation gets good. Maybe that is a good thing. Idon't know. Too much thinging. Brain smoking.

MAL: "What happen about me?"

WHITEFALL

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:06 PM

This is why this argument is so much of... well... an argument.

After reading the ladies' posts about this thing of clothing, it's weird, the issue i'm so disturbed by just isnt there (besides as mentioned, the staring thing) in a lot of ways. because i suppose, if the man's ok with it, and the woman's ok with it, what's the issue?

damned moral compass.

edit: after rereading MSG's last post... that glance, it freaks me out because it seems like, for lack of a better term, the man taking a pleasure in the woman completely without consent, but you just mentioned you don't mind. and that's where damned society comes in, where this is ok.

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

RUGBUG

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:

Plus, too, there is how you carry yourself. I'm not sure what it is, but there is a certain sluttiness to some walks. Maybe it's just an exaggeration in the moving of the hips; I really have no idea. But I have never been mistaken for a slut, a whore, a hooker, or anything like that (not that I heard, anyway) and I can still dress to please.

Just look at a Victoria's Secret catalogue. They can make the most mundane business suit look slutty. It's all about the attitude.

But, from the flatter side of life, I feel like I don't fill out tops enough so they end up exposing more skin than they would on my well-endowed friends. Yeah, it's flat, bony chest skin, but it's still skin nonetheless. I have a hard time find bras for V-necks because my lack of boobage means the V goes down to my bellybutton and even the skimpiest bra shows. (and really, I'm not THAT small. Perfect, IMO.

Stretchy jeans are the bomb-diggety. I will never wear non-stretch again.

MSG

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:13 PM

I dress fairly sexily outside of school...my bemoaning of the outfit choices is mainly related to the fact that I work with mostly teenage boys and I'd like clothes that are stylish and attractive( and in style) and still not distracting/revealing because I definitely can't wear fishnets, short skirts, and clingy tops round my students without embarrassing them and me and setting myself up for charges of sexually inapropriate conduct with students or something:) but as for the guys looking when we are dressed sexy...stop feeling bad damnit why do you think we are wearing them??? so you'll look and appreciate and make us feel sexy!!!
EDIT- I mean do you really think I'd wear the incredibly uncomfortable undergarments required to look good in those outfits for my own enjoyment??

Also yes I love love love stretchy jean ( Old Navy is the best)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Whitefall:
I doubt anyone would ever say such it to anyone's face, "btw you look like a whore"

Oh yes, yes they would. I remember being in a lunch line at school and this girl in front of me was wearing a little too much makeup; she wasn't that scantily clad, but a little heavy on the makeup, and this guy came up to her and said "You look like a $10 whore." She really didn't, IMO, but he straight up just said that to her. It really made me angry, actually. Poor girl cried half that makeup off.
And hey, just for the record, I don't mind when guys wear tight clothes, either. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your body. The only people who shouldn't wear tight clothing are the morbidly obese. I will say again, sexuality is part of being human; everyone screams sexuality because they are human. Nothing to feel guilty about.
Although I have to say, those girls who like to show off the fact that they're wearing a thong are a bit much. Does anyone actually think thongs are sexy? I sure don't.

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TRISTAN

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:14 PM

Rugbug, bellybuttons are good, too!

Again, I am sorry for today. We are at work, nothing is going on here, and my mind is sixteen shades of not focusing on work...

______________________________________

NVGHOSTRIDER

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:17 PM

I think women want to be appreciated in so many ways. Men are still primative and are easily distracted.

I smell food.

MAL: "What happen about me?"

WHITEFALL

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:19 PM

Now, that, MSG, is... well, touche.

But actually, i should mention that maybe what bugs me is that i'm still in high school, some of my best friends were freshmen this year, that makes them.... 14..... and they are wonderful people, but especially the freshmen it creeps me out to be dealing with this sexuality issue.

Imho, breasts are a part of the woman's body just like any other, just like the male equivalent, and should not be given the sort of reverence or importance they are. A little story: this fellow student of mine, also in theater she who is a bit uptight and never wears anything any more exposing than a tshirt, we were in the same play the months after i first met her, and not until her character was insulted for being flat chested and everyone laughed, that i realized she is rather well endowed (possibly even on the side of back pain, dunno), and i'd never really noticed. and i'm proud of that.

So, MSG, maybe your issue with your students is exactly what i'm dealing with, and i cant really relate to the actually adult ideals of sexuality.

Edit, i'm afraid i'm so longwinded i miss the conversation when i reply to stuff. And yes, i can tell you, living in a teenage male body, men are easily distracted, and i dont have to like it.

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

MSG

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:20 PM

NV- when we spend an hour getting ready you bet we do:)LOL
as for the food...it maight be the banana bread I just baked, or the chicken I am roasting...or maybe the treasure house bread... was in a baking mood ( the cooking I do daily)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

DAYVE

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:
....Men are still primative and are easily distracted.

is it monday? must be fish sticks again....!

TRISTAN

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:24 PM

Ooh, even better! I get to have catfish and hushpuppies tonight! BSCPantherFan is coming to town and we are going to Top O The River...

Sorry, were we discussing something else?

Not distractible at all!

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ODDSBODSKINS

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:28 PM

so, Whitefall, is it that you feel the act of looking at a woman with sex on the brain is in some way degrading to them, objectifying them and downright morally squiffy, or is it that you feel the disparity between how men and women are treated by society, and the expectations upon them, is the moral issue?

if it's the first i can sympathise, because i used to feel the same way (and thought i must be dreadfully sensitive to do so). but, like someone said, your sexuality is something you grow into, and it takes time to feel comfortable with it ^^ i definately have to say i don't feel that it's degrading to recognise that you find a woman sexually attractive, and as a man, i feel extremely flattered if i ever find myself subject to an appreciative glance at any part of me (althought it happens less, i've gotten lazy and lost my previously toned ass see? ) but everyone is going to feel differantly in this kind of issue, depending on what kind of influence your libido has on your nature.

if it's the second, well i agree whole-heartedly with the principle, society very definately differentiates between men and women (although this could be taken to be societies reaction to men and women having differances, there are ways in which i believe it to be unjustified). Thing is, as regards differant expectations regarding clothing and what's 'on display' i'm not sure i'd agree. the obvious example would be to ask yourself exactly why a topless man is considered so much less offensive then a topless woman, frequently to the point of legislature and law (and certainly to the point of film censorship, er, sorry, classification, boards). i think there is a trend towards revealing clothing for women (although i have to say someone who can strike the right balance between display and imagination is always going to be more attractive. that balance, however, is more 'in the eye of the beholder' then anywhere else). but then, it's not hard if you're a bloke to find a pair of jeans that hug your arse as tight as you could like, or a t-shirt that contours you exactly.

damn, got to cut this short and dash (hope it provided food for thought rather then alod of waffle to skim-read and skip through ) as my bus is a-calling. would draw a conclusion but i'm not sure there's much of a one to draw, 'i humbly beg to differ' maybe, but i'm not sure how well it fits, well, damnit, time to dash.

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Whitefall:
breasts are a part of the woman's body just like any other, just like the male equivalent, and should not be given the sort of reverence or importance they are.

I have to disagree on that. Boobs should be revered! Where do you think your first year of meals came from?

Ah, well, in terms of professional and school-acceptable clothing, I do not know. Not sure with your chest size if the higher-cut but clingier tops would work for you. Hmmmm....
And yes, we do not wear the uncompfortable undergarments just to please ourselves, we do it so we look pleasing, which can in turn please us if it's noticed. But "noticed" I don't mean gawked at, leered at, or even taken as any kind of invitation. Just smiled at, really. I like to be smiled at and given that "Hey, you're a woman!" look.

*edit* Well said, Oddsbodkins! A little confusing at points, but mostly well said.

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MSG

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:31 PM

PR- here here well said..yeah it's hard to find clothes for school that don't make me look like Mother Hubbard, but also don't cause problems ( flashback to day I foolishly wore short black skirt and tightish red v neck sweater ,as I had a party later, which cause near riot level problems with my students)So I stick to button up shirts, trousers, and turtleneck sweaters, but it's a bit boring to say the least!

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:32 PM

I'll be thinkin' about you Browncoats, Tristan, eatin' catfish just a few hours across the way!

Sigh, I'll probably be having leftovers. But my Mama came and cooked for me yesterday, so they're the world's best leftovers!

TRISTAN

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:36 PM

FireFromHeaven, you are more than welcome to join us. Seriously, the more the merrier! If you need directions, let me know.

My verdict is still kinda out on the clothing issue...thinking about it, though.
Best way to sum up my thoughts ends up being sort of vague, but here goes: dress comfortably and befitting of the situation you will find yourself in. If you have it, flaunt it, but don't be surprised if you do get attention. No, I don't mean come-ons, etc, but you will get attention.

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MSG

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:37 PM

Tristan ...yeah well I'm making herb crusted chicken casserole with broccoli, rice and hollandaise in a paremesan crust and homemade bread so nyah nyah!! ( sigh it's just not the same as having a nice catfish fry, but I'll just sulk quietly over here in the desert wasteland)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

WHITEFALL

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:39 PM

to odd's question, basically i'm talking about both issues.

the "looking at a woman with sex on the brain" thing... well, it's a problem for me because, well, i don't know how much women do it (i really dont understand the atractiveness of males. were i female, i'd probably swing the other way.) but me assuming that they usually dont, i think men should walk up to women and look em in the face, in the mind, in the part of the body that makes them a unique and beautiful human being.

as for the issue of society, that too, maybe i'm alone in this but it disturbs, partially in what i've read here, how much women enjoy this attention that, as a man-person i dont think is really right. but actually, i'm not sure my issue is with adult society, more with teens, like if your child was wearing lowcut stuff at ten, would you be freaked out how young our society values sex? well, my issue with... well, everyone in high school, is that they are each one underage, they cant and really shouldnt take a relationship too seriously, so why do they seem to start dare-i-call-it the process. (ok, this might have something to do with my dislike of dating, but meh)

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

TRISTAN

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:42 PM

MSG,

....herb crusted chicken casserole with broccoli, rice and hollandaise in a paremesan crust and homemade bread....
Would you, by any chance, need another husband?

______________________________________

TRISTAN

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:45 PM

Whitefall, I truly hope you never lose that respect of females. Wow. I know you are young, but wow, you have a great view of females there. It would be nice if the society of your age group shared these views.

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FIREFROMHEAVEN

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:46 PM

Tristan, you don't know how much I wish I could join you!

On the whole clothing thing, I agree with your general statement, but nice clothing that fits well can be really hard to find! I hate shopping for clothing -- some years are better (or worse) than others, depending on what's "in style."

Who are they designing/making this stuff for? Because it isn't real women!

Then, there's having an 11 year old daughter. I don't want her to look like Britney, and she doesn't want that, either. But, she doesn't want to look like a little girl in pinafores, either. So, the love/hate relationship with clothing starts early.

The days when she wants to go around being a tomboy are the easiest, really -- except for the unkempt thing. I don't even say a word when she just sticks all that hair up in a baseball cap and lets it hang out in a ponytail through the back.

I don't want to fight with her about appearance at all. Although once in a while I can't help saying things like, "Sweetie, we do own brushes, you know?"

MSG

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:47 PM

LOL- wait until I actually make something decent before you go nuts.I love to cook! Sneak peek of this week's menu:
today- Herb crusted chicken casserole
Tues- pan seared scallops in garlic cream over homemade fettuchini
Wed-Blue cheese stuffed burgers with pan roasted thyme crusted french fries
Thurs-Tilapia in breadcrums pan baked with zuchinni in dill sour cream sauce
I can actually do way better, but this week actually looks pretty good:)
EDIT- Fire you sound like my mom. SHe really wanted the pinafore child, but got the tomboy..giggle. She's past it though. Sadly I still usually have my hair in a pony tail:)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

WHITEFALL

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:48 PM

at Tristan

Now you see why i like Mr. Whedon. I'm proud to say i was something of a feminist before i knew joss was, and i'm damned proud (if not a bit creepified about how much we have in common) to support a guy who so well fits my beliefs. Also, i did a history project on the second wave feminst movement as an excuse to read The Feminine Mystique. well... half of it. still thinking on finishing the other bit lol.

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:49 PM

I agree with you, whitefall, that younger people shouldn't be too into sex. I know they think about it (hey, hasn't been that long, ya know) but it should be a process. I started thinking about it when I was 14. I had my first kiss when I was 16. I started dressing to be noticed when I was 17. I dated a little more seriously then, too. I had my first semi-sexual encounter at 17. I didn't have sex until I was 19. This was a good progression, I think. I had time to adjust to all of it.
Kids think that having sex will make you mature, but really you should be mature to have sex. I have seen many young ladies have it before they were actually ready for it, and it has completely messed them up. Not quite to the extent that being actually asaulted would and has, but still. I am in total aggreement with Fire up there that sex and the soul are intwined, and subjecting the soul to something it isn't ready for is going to lead to problems. However, when it is ready for it, it's a celebration, a deep connection, and an all-around beautiful thing.
And yes, women do look at men that way as well. Some more than others, some in different ways, but we find men sexually attractive in much the same way they find us sexually attractive. As someone who can work from both ends of that spectrum, I'm just gonna have to ask you to trust me on that. As I said, it should not be all that's looked at; I wouldn't hop into bed with someone I found physically attractive, I have to actually find them as a person attractive and trust them first. But it's not ignored. It's impossible to ignore and shouldn't be at all. It should just be one thing among many that's taken into account. If you're going to be with someone, you need all forms of chemistry; spiritual, emotional, social, and sexual. There is balance to be had.
But most people do not pace themselves like me and don't view things the way I do. Such is life, sadly.
But if I had a daugher, I would raise her more the way I was raised, and I don't think she'd jump into things before she was ready.

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TRISTAN

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:50 PM

FFH, that's part of why I dread having children...especially a daughter. I would end up in jail so many times over, it wouldn't be funny. "You looking at my daughter?!? She's 12, you pervert!" Know what I mean? Or, the flip side; dressing them in burlap sacks until they are old enough to move out of the house...

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TRISTAN

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:52 PM

MSG...seriously, do you need another husband? Maybe a gardner or something? Ooh, an older version of a poolboy? I could be all of those if you wanted!

______________________________________

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:56 PM

Hell, I just wish I was close enough to be invited to dinner every once in awhile. That all sound DE-lish!
Now I'm all hungry and should already be in bed.

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MSG

Monday, July 3, 2006 6:58 PM

LOL- Tristan hey the more the merrier:) I throw parties at the drop of a hat:) I do much better food for parties than just regular cooking... as for the little girls thing...It's been fun to watch our friends James and Kristie ( original wild children in high school smoked pot, Kristie wore very sexy clothes etc)with their 12 year old. She tried to buy leather pants and got grounded!! They get crazy if she even talks about boys.... I will pass on your burlap idea:)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

WHITEFALL

Monday, July 3, 2006 7:03 PM

Wow... i dunno what to say anymore, lol. My argument sorta dried up when we established that its mostly a problem with my age grp thing. Well... that ended well...

so what do we talk about now?

Actually, bah i gotta run. gotta be at a rehearsal in 3 hours, and gotta get all set then probably walk there. :-\ whatever, tone my legs or whatnot.

See you folks in... about 8 hours! i hope i wont have to read too much!

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Monday, July 3, 2006 7:03 PM

Tristan, I *love* being a parent. And DH is the world's best Dad for a little girl. No sexist expectations at all; it's a beautiful thing.

Children are whole people in their own right -- with their own opinions and stubbornness and everything. I don't think I could get away with burlap sacks with a shotgun!

My daughter does dress appropriately -- well, except sometimes for that unkempt thing. But, she's a kid. I keep telling myself that I'll miss that when she's in the bathroom for an hour, fussing with her hair etc.

If you're ready to be a parent, it's a transcendent experience. There is no stronger love. It doesn't overshadow being in love with an SO, but it's just as compelling.

MSG, I have sympathy for your Mom because I was a pinafore girl! My gosh, was I feminine -- way up into adulthood.

I have no such expectations of my child. When her favorite pants have a hole in them, I don't argue, I sew the hole closed. She has one pair of pants that got darned so many times that I thought it was ready for the trash. Dear daughter wailed, "No! Those are special -- they have to go in the baby box!" So, into the memory box they went.

WHITEFALL

Monday, July 3, 2006 7:09 PM

Bah, i know i'm gone but first....

Here's a ponder, after this thread i cant help but want to get past these damned teenage contrivances and get on with the real thing, ya know, adult relationships, the whole mutual respecting thing, teenage years are just damned awkward.

You know how they say life is short? well... not atm it doesnt feel like it. Weird, huh?

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

MSG

Monday, July 3, 2006 7:11 PM

Fire- that's great. My mom was pretty good about that and now I am all sorts of girly ( combined with all sorts of tomboy) I had a favorite sweater like that. I can still remember it. Cream coloured cotton irish fishermans sweater. Wore that thing til the sleeves fell off:)
Hey that's a good topic. Does anyone else have great memories of a piece of clothing that made them feel grown up, pretty, or just made them happy??
EDIT- good luck at rehersal Whitefall..and I know it doesn't seem short now. If won't start to seem short til you pass 21 and then it flies like a tornado:)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

NVGHOSTRIDER

Monday, July 3, 2006 7:19 PM

Don't know what happend.

MAL: "What happen about me?"

MSG

Monday, July 3, 2006 7:20 PM

Um- NV you feeling ok? HUGS

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

NVGHOSTRIDER

Monday, July 3, 2006 7:31 PM

All this talk about food and clothes and kids. Like I said, I have no clue what happened. I am suddenly laughing at my desk and everyone is looking.

MSG, who cooks like that? Your guy must be pretty great if he gets to eat so well.

MSG is great! I want one of those.

MAL: "What happen about me?"

WHITEFALL

Monday, July 3, 2006 7:33 PM

Lol i leave to take shower and it's so quiet all of a sudden! Dont have to take off for another half an hour yet, i figure in two hours i can walk anywhere. So what is there still to ponder?

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

RUGBUG

Monday, July 3, 2006 7:34 PM

MSG: I think I want to marry you, too. Mabye you could box some of that up and send it to CA? I don't cook. Not because I can't, but b/c it's just me, I have no time and I HATE doing dishes. Dinner tonight will probably be peas. Or some lima beans.

Whitefall, I understand where you are coming from and have been there myself. There is a distinction to make between finding someone sexually attractive and objectifying them. Possibly the difference between wanting to take someone out on a date and get to know who they are as opposed to taking them out so you can get in their pants.

But don't listen to me as I really don't know anything. I'm a pretty asexual person until I get to know someone. I don't make it easy on the opposite sex b/c gosh darn it, you better want to get to know me for me and not because you think I'm cute, which let's face it, is often the initial attractive quality. I need to get this straightened out, because I think it's holding me back. And in this small town with limited numbers of men anyway, I'm limiting it even further. It's almost like I test them to make sure they are interested enough to stick with me without the physical and then, and only then, do they get to see the sexual side. Not many men perservere....

MSG

Monday, July 3, 2006 7:35 PM

I think he's kind of used to it by now. We've been married 10 year. My mom's a cordon blue level cook so I spent my childhood in the kitchen learning to deglaze and blanche, etc.. Like I said you're all welcome any time you pass through Salt Lake and I'll do something a lot better than the usual stuff I make ( see above post of menu) Cooking makes me feel cheerful and productive so it's what I use after a long day with the kidlets..I'm sure you have something you do to decompress:)
So is everything ok? Not trying to be nosy I just worried about you a lot this weekend:)

EDIT- OMG rugbug that is awful...peas for dinner. That is not a dinner. Here is an easy recipe and only one dish to wash. Take a cup of uncooked rice and pour into baking dish. Put in 1 1/2 c broth. Then put 3-4 chicken breasts on. then fresh or frozen spinach over that.Then a large can of italian canned chopped tomatos..bake 350 degrees for 1 hour. Take it out and sprinkle favorite cheese over and put back in for about 10-15 min till cheese bubbles...voila all food groups, a few days worth of leftovers, and only one dish dirty..plus no real prep time or fuss:)
I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Monday, July 3, 2006 7:36 PM

I think girly plus tomboy is the best, most versatile combination! Of course, this coming from a woman who once said to her boyfriend (now husband), "Hon, on this thing of camping out all the time? I think roughing it is a hotel without room service!"

I had all kinds of wonderful clothing! My mother used to sew most of my clothes. I got so spoiled by that! I actually made a memory quilt with bits of leftover fabric. It's currently at Mom's house.

Of course, my favorite is probably the (appropriate) shorts with the long flowy vest, which looked almost like a dress. This was in HS; mini skirts not allowed in those days. The VP started to say something about my dress being too short, and I got to say, "But, I'm not wearing a dress, sir!" and flap open the vest and show him! I walked off, leaving him befuddled. But, I didn't get sent home!

My mother was (and is) a genius!

WHITEFALL

Monday, July 3, 2006 7:37 PM

Lol Rugbug, you wont get an argument from me. Hold yourself hostage for all you're worth!

Yeah, you may have hit the nail there, seems like to many relationships (keep in mind i dont actually know of many/any real ones) start with physical attraction and end in disaster.

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

RUGBUG

Monday, July 3, 2006 7:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Whitefall:
Yeah, you may have hit the nail there, seems like to many relationships (keep in mind i dont actually know of many/any real ones) start with physical attraction and end in disaster.

Oh, but I think the best relationships start with physical attraction, they just don't end there. A relationship based solely on the physical isn't going to make it for the long haul. That attraction is VERY important. Otherwise you're just friends.

Tomboy/Girly girl: Hrmmm, I've almost always been a tomboy. Even now I detest wearing high heels. Now, I LOVE the look of them, but can't stand the pain. I will not suffer (too much) to fit an image. IMO, being too girly can shut you out of a lot of really fun and interesting experiences in life.

WHITEFALL

Monday, July 3, 2006 7:50 PM

"Otherwise you're just friends."

Huh, in my romanticized ideal of romance, it should be based on friendship before it can effectively become anything else. Dare i quote a buffy writer (might have been joss) as anya in saying: "I'm married to my best friend: yah!"

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Monday, July 3, 2006 7:50 PM

Teenagers and young adults are hard-wired to feel like they're going to live forever. Don't have a link handy off the top of my head with one of the articles on this subject, but if you want one, I'll find one.

You feel that way until somewhere in the vicinity of 25 or 30. Apparently, having young humans be risk-takers had evolutionary value. Now, it gets them killed for driving too fast while young and stuff like that.

So, you feeling that life is not short? Completely normal.

For you, life is not short: it's all still ahead of you.

Don't get in too much of a hurry! Appreciate where you are *right now*.

Really, truly, one day you're going to look back with nostalgia on times that feel awkward now. You're going to savor those memories of theater and friends and learning about yourself and the world.

Those good moments are gold in the bedrock of our existence as time deposits layers of silt in an unexpected pattern.

WHITEFALL

Monday, July 3, 2006 7:53 PM

Touche. In all honesty, as much as i'm looking forward to getting out of home n high school, i'm just as much worried about losing the friends i have now. I don't understand this custom that you should lose the friends you make in high school in that rediculous age old adage "You'll make new friends!". I really do understand how much i'll miss this theater-ish experience, just cant seem do much about it.

Damned life and its confusing bits.

Edit: ok, really out the door this time folks, as the operative sayeth "I may have a long way to travel..." so, cya folks in 8 hours. (You're all still awesome, btw.)

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

FIREFROMHEAVEN

Monday, July 3, 2006 8:02 PM

I'm with you, there. It was hard for me that everyone scattered off to different colleges. I am still in touch with some of my buddies from that time, though. I even live reasonably close to my best girlfriend from HS.

But, a whole new life does open up. In some ways quickly; in some ways slowly.

RUGBUG

Monday, July 3, 2006 8:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Whitefall:
"Otherwise you're just friends."

Huh, in my romanticized ideal of romance, it should be based on friendship before it can effectively become anything else. Dare i quote a buffy writer (might have been joss) as anya in saying: "I'm married to my best friend: yah!"

I've got that ideal, too. Let me try again:

Even if you start out as friends, somewhere along the way, there is hopefully sexual attraction. Whether that attraction grows as you get to know the person, or is put to the side while getting to know them, it SHOULD be there. If it's not there, you're solely friends, not a relationship.

In your example, Xander and Anya couldn't keep their hands off of each other. There was a lot of attraction. My "you're just friends" comment would be more like say Cordelia and Gunn dating (Had a hard time coming up with a pair that are friends with no sexual attraction on either side...)

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