Why Wash is 100% alive and mostly well.
POSTED BY: pastorbadger
UPDATED: Thursday, November 22, 2007 09:57
VIEWED: 83772
PAGE 3 of 3
Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat2006:
Coupla things I would like to point out... yes the Revers in Serenity (the pilot, not the movie) had an EMP weapon... well, not really a weapon so much as an Electro Magnetic Grapple... NOT an EMP gun... second, Book is definatly dead... third, Revers WOULD NOT have a pretty silver n' blue ship, it wouldda been all scared, pitted and blackend jagged metal with loverly crimson red BLOOD all over it, if not a few dozen thin hood ornament type dudes on it... and the ship wouldda also been venting black smoke for it's not operating with core contanment, and FINAL... your theory kicks ASS!!! welcome to the crew bud... *hands over a brow duster*
you read the movie script?
"A moment after serenity blows through frame , so does a reaver ship.
It fires an electronic pulse at serenity and sparks fly"
and....
"WASH
I am a leaf on the wind. watch -
A massive harpoon CRASHES through the windshield and impales him to his chair. It's as thick around as a telephone pole.
Wash has time to open his mouth in surprise before he is dead."
think that clears it up nicely
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Yeah, and if you read every other script for every other incident someone in a serial has died (see long list above by actually reading thread), they'll all say "He's dead, Jim", too. I'm certain the script for "Wrath of Kahn" DIDN'T say, "The genetic material of Spock is ejected in a torpedo casing to be reconstituted by the lingering Genesis effect". Means nothing.
We've already stipulated to the telephone pole : (Cough. Ahem.) Steering Column!
"Wash has time to open his mouth in surprise before he is dead." First : remember the dead guy in the mail?
Second, this is so cleverly phrased that the ambiguity makes me even more certain that Wash will rise again. After all, we all had time to open our mouths before we were dead. My script says "Pastor Badger has time to do what he needs before he is dead." (Yes this is stretching the ambiguity, but Joss would have gone to extremes to leave this thread untied.)
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Quote:
Originally posted by pastorbadger:
Yeah, and if you read every other script for every other incident someone in a serial has died (see long list above by actually reading thread), they'll all say "He's dead, Jim", too. I'm certain the script for "Wrath of Kahn" DIDN'T say, "The genetic material of Spock is ejected in a torpedo casing to be reconstituted by the lingering Genesis effect". Means nothing.
Again, you're useing Star Trek as an example - a show with lots of stuff that Joss has said would never be in the verse - aliens, supernatural beings, and uh... people coming back from the dead. Apples and oranges. A point I've made before... but if you're gonna keep saying steering coulmn over and over....
Quote:
Second, this is so cleverly phrased that the ambiguity makes me even more certain that Wash will rise again. After all, we all had time to open our mouths before we were dead. My script says "Pastor Badger has time to do what he needs before he is dead." (Yes this is stretching the ambiguity, but Joss would have gone to extremes to leave this thread untied.)
You've got to be kidding. Talk about reaching. He died right there on the page. It doesn't say he opened his mouth before he died twenty years later. He breathed his last.
Of course, nothing anyone says will convince you at this point. I doubt it would make an impact if Joss showed up one your doorstop himself and said "He's dead. Deal with it." Willfull self-deception at it's finest.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Nope, not comparing Star Trek to Firefly. Just comparing two movie scripts. Not comparing apples and oranges, just makeing a general observation about fruit. ;)
After all, how many times has a particular author killed a character, only to have another ressurect him? Joss's original intent isn't even relavent. The script could say "Wash is so dead, he can't even come back in flashback". Wouldn't matter.
It's not denial. Schrödinger's Wash.
ROFL!
(Nobody ever gets my best stuff.)
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I've read a bunch, and I myself would love to have Wash alive again. Watchin' the series with my own friends and family, you can't help but be a little hurt when Wash and Book kick the bucket...
But it's over. Wash is dead, and he ain't coming back. As much as I'd like to scan the movie for any and all errors that might show he's alive, as much as I'd like to research the chances someone could survive an injury like that, I think the movie points it out well enough.
Mal stays with Book until he dies. Can't stress that part enough. That's who Mal is, he ain't gunna walk out on someone he cares about during their dying breaths.
He tells Shepard he was a part of the crew, not to talk, to hold on...but even Simon's medical experience don't mean anything if it doesn't get there in time.
So when Wash gets pinned into the cockpit by a harpoon shot hard and fast enough to shatter airproof heat resistant space shuttle window, And Mal and Zoe flee...they know he is dead. Two well experienced, very loyal to this man people LEAVE HIM. If Wash was alive, or had any chance of surviving, do you really think they would have done that?
And when Kaylee shouts "Wash? Where's Wash!?", I recall Zoe saying in a cold hidin' back the feelings voice "He ain't coming." Not "Well, we think he's dead, but we didn't wanna get killed ourselves checking."
The third thing was the flight itself. No ordinary pilot could have wormed their way between a large scale air battle like that. Everything was resting on Wash, and he brought them to their destination. As a pilot, his mission was complete. Wash died a hero.
As Joss has said, it's about normal, run of the mill people trying to get by. They aren't invincible, they aren't imbued with super-powers or mystic elements. They're just folk, like you and me. Wash was shot through the chest with a deadly harpoon. It's his end.
... ... ...*weeps a little and decides to wear a hawaiian shirt today*
Dear Diary... Today, we were kidnapped by hill folk never to be seen again. It was the best day ever.
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Quote:
Originally posted by PoeandFaith:
I've read a bunch, and I myself would love to have Wash alive again. Watchin' the series with my own friends and family, you can't help but be a little hurt when Wash and Book kick the bucket...
But it's over. Wash is dead, and he ain't coming back. As much as I'd like to scan the movie for any and all errors that might show he's alive, as much as I'd like to research the chances someone could survive an injury like that, I think the movie points it out well enough.
Mal stays with Book until he dies. Can't stress that part enough. That's who Mal is, he ain't gunna walk out on someone he cares about during their dying breaths.
He tells Shepard he was a part of the crew, not to talk, to hold on...but even Simon's medical experience don't mean anything if it doesn't get there in time.
So when Wash gets pinned into the cockpit by a harpoon shot hard and fast enough to shatter airproof heat resistant space shuttle window, And Mal and Zoe flee...they know he is dead. Two well experienced, very loyal to this man people LEAVE HIM. If Wash was alive, or had any chance of surviving, do you really think they would have done that?
And when Kaylee shouts "Wash? Where's Wash!?", I recall Zoe saying in a cold hidin' back the feelings voice "He ain't coming." Not "Well, we think he's dead, but we didn't wanna get killed ourselves checking."
The third thing was the flight itself. No ordinary pilot could have wormed their way between a large scale air battle like that. Everything was resting on Wash, and he brought them to their destination. As a pilot, his mission was complete. Wash died a hero.
As Joss has said, it's about normal, run of the mill people trying to get by. They aren't invincible, they aren't imbued with super-powers or mystic elements. They're just folk, like you and me. Wash was shot through the chest with a deadly harpoon. It's his end.
... ... ...*weeps a little and decides to wear a hawaiian shirt today*
Dear Diary... Today, we were kidnapped by hill folk never to be seen again. It was the best day ever.
As I posited in the first post, it's the alliance finds Wash's recently perforated body. If all Simon has is his skill and wits, there's only so much he can do. That's why he took River to Aeriel. Sometimes, you just gotta have the gadgets.
Second, Zoe's belief that his injuries were unsurvivable aren't relavent either. Wouldn't be the first time she'd made that mistake either ("The Message"). She left because Mal ordered her to. (The show covered that ground, too.) Mal ordered her to, because it was the right thing to do tactically.
It's easily possible. We've proven that, time and again. It's emnently likely, considering EVERY other science fiction franchise has done it already. You must face your fear of the Holy MacGuffin in order to move on. End your denial and embrace the Holy MacGuffin.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat2006:
your theory kicks ASS!!! welcome to the crew bud... *hands over a brow duster*
Sincere thanks. (That's "thanks without wax" for the over-educated among you.)
Already have duster though. Rode fences for five years on my step-father's ranch. (To this day, I keep my 30-30 Winchester in a saddle holster. Even though the saddle is looong gone.)
Chasin' cows with horses by day and watchin' "Star Trek" by night in the late sixties. Any wonder I love Firefly? lol
By the way, I've got one complaint along that line. In "Shindig", Serenity takes on cattle. No way, no how is any cow setting foot on that open grating in Serenity's cargo hold. They just won't do it.
Does anyone know if they put plywood down on the set, or what? Any cowboys here can back me up on this?
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Okay, got it. Whatever happened in the movie (from Wash's mortal wound, to his death gurgle, and the fact that the Alliance was too busy fighting a massive battle to bother with performing miraculous first-aid on a guy they were essentially trying to kill anyway) - irrelevant.
The script - irrelevant.
Joss' stated intentions - irrelevant.
Joss' insistance that Wash is very, very dead - irrelevant.
Joss' promise that no-one comes back from the dead in the 'verse - irrelevant.
Alan's insistence that Wash is dead, and his admission that he thought it was best for the character - irrelevant.
The only thing that seems to be relevant is your insistance, contrary to all evidence, that Wash is "100% alive".
Gotcha.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Okay, got it. Whatever happened in the movie (from Wash's mortal wound, to his death gurgle, and the fact that the Alliance was too busy fighting a massive battle to bother with performing miraculous first-aid on a guy they were essentially trying to kill anyway) - irrelevant.
The script - irrelevant.
Joss' stated intentions - irrelevant.
Joss' insistance that Wash is very, very dead - irrelevant.
Joss' promise that no-one comes back from the dead in the 'verse - irrelevant.
Alan's insistence that Wash is dead, and his admission that he thought it was best for the character - irrelevant.
The only thing that seems to be relevant is your insistance, contrary to all evidence, that Wash is "100% alive".
Gotcha.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
Given the irrefutable history of science fiction film-making? That's pretty much the picture.
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pardon my language here but jesus christ! some people really cannot face the truth.
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeC:
pardon my language here but jesus christ! some people really cannot face the truth.
Yes, and we think you're one of them. ;) (Actually, you're worse : You refuse to face a possibility.)
And breaking the third commandment isn't going to get you any brownie points with me, young man!
(Actually it's not. Swearing with the name of the lord isn't taking his name in vain. It's just coarse and disrespectful.
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PastorB, you rock. You allow for possibilities. Others, especially he who listed all the people saying Wash is dead, show me proof. Please. Doubting Thomas moment, sure, but people's minds can change. If Joss chooses to bring back Wash, then Wash is back. I don't doubt that there are ways of surviving a spike like that. Whomever said that it would have pushed his internals out of the way, you're right. That's why we don't use flechette rifles. Also, Mal and Zoe ran as to get the message out, and not die. Mal stayed with Book as he wasn't being shot at meanwhile.
If anyone gets nosy...Shoot em.
Shoot em sir?
Politely.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrowncoatSandinista:
PastorB, you rock. You allow for possibilities. Others, especially he who listed all the people saying Wash is dead, show me proof. Please. Doubting Thomas moment, sure, but people's minds can change. If Joss chooses to bring back Wash, then Wash is back. I don't doubt that there are ways of surviving a spike like that. Whomever said that it would have pushed his internals out of the way, you're right. That's why we don't use flechette rifles. Also, Mal and Zoe ran as to get the message out, and not die. Mal stayed with Book as he wasn't being shot at meanwhile.
If anyone gets nosy...Shoot em.
Shoot em sir?
Politely.
Thank you for the compliment. Hope is important. You can live without love for a little while. You can live without faith as long as your body lives. But you can't live without hope.
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Quote:
Originally posted by pastorbadger:
Schrödinger's Wash.
ROFL!
(Nobody ever gets my best stuff.)
Au contraire. This is very funny! What a great way to put it.
Btw, I never said Wash can't still be alive, I said he shouldn't still be alive. Big difference, at least IMO.
I just hope we'll all get a chance to see what Joss has in mind.
"We need to keep our heads so we can ... keep our heads."
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I WANNA SHIP OUT ON THAT MISSION !!!! Hmmm what ta pack, .44mag, .45 automag, 9mm, and 357mag !!! And plenty of extra ammo !!!! TAKE THAT YOU GORRAM, RUTTIN ALLIANCE !!!! Oh and don't forget grenades, plenty of grenades !!!!
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Quote:
Originally posted by BlazeSolo:
I WANNA SHIP OUT ON THAT MISSION !!!! Hmmm what ta pack, .44mag, .45 automag, 9mm, and 357mag !!! And plenty of extra ammo !!!! TAKE THAT YOU GORRAM, RUTTIN ALLIANCE !!!! Oh and don't forget grenades, plenty of grenades !!!!
And this is a response to which post? You have confused me. (No mean feat.)
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The Mission ta go rescue Wash from the nasty Alliance hospital!!!! Who knows what they're gonna do ta him!!!!!! They might make Niska look like a kindergarten teacher !!!!! I WANT WASH BACK !!!!
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Quote:
Schrödinger's Wash.
ROFLMAO
that's great
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you
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bump, 'cause I like this thread
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you
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another bump for ppl who just got here
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature
I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.
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Well, I have to say, this was really interesting to read. Even if it does seem like a huge stretch, it was fun to imagine for even a few moments that Wash might've survived. Hmmm.
I wouldn't count this theory out as a possibility, but I'm not sure I can believe it's the truth.
No matter what, though -- whether you believe this, want to believe this, can't bring yourself to believe this no matter how much you want to, or just plain think it's nuts -- this was an incredibly well-thought-out theory and an enjoyable read. Brilliant work! You're very clever, Pastorbadger.
*****
"Define interesting." - Mal
"Oh God, oh God, we're all gonna die." - Wash
"I'm a leaf on the wind..." - Wash
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I agree
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature
I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.
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thats an incredibly interesting theory. Joss Whedon broke my heart when he "killed" Wash. it would be amazing to see him again.
-------------------------------------------------
Shepard used to tell me...can't do something smart, do something right.
I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Okay, got it. Whatever happened in the movie (from Wash's mortal wound, to his death gurgle, and the fact that the Alliance was too busy fighting a massive battle to bother with performing miraculous first-aid on a guy they were essentially trying to kill anyway) - irrelevant.
The script - irrelevant.
Joss' stated intentions - irrelevant.
Joss' insistance that Wash is very, very dead - irrelevant.
Joss' promise that no-one comes back from the dead in the 'verse - irrelevant.
Alan's insistence that Wash is dead, and his admission that he thought it was best for the character - irrelevant.
The only thing that seems to be relevant is your insistance, contrary to all evidence, that Wash is "100% alive".
Gotcha.
It is irrelevant. Joss Whedon changed his theory about the Reavers to better suit a feature film. If he wants to change what he wrote before from "dies" to "was seriously injured," well, then that's up to him. And if you've ever seen Buffy or any of Joss Whedon's other work, you know he feels he can change his mind all he wants.
Another thought - This thread won't die! Those of us shouting "STEERING COLUMN" aren't the ones who won't let it die either. We're not in denial. It's the ones denying that it's possible who won't let this argument rest.
"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."
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My theory as too why Wash is dead:
He had a big stake through his chest.
He had a BIG stake through his chest.
He had a REALLY BIG STAKE THROUGH HIS CHEST!
This is FireFly, not star trek. They didn't bury him on a moon created by some kind of "Genesis Device" that will miraculously revive his fetted corpse minus his mind, which was passed on to Serenity through his "Vulcanised Rubber" mind meld.
They won't rescue him, planet exploding around their ears in Serenity 2: The Search for Wash, and they won't take him to mount cyanide where an ancient Gosling ritual won't be used too reunite his body with his mind that has been hilariously melded with the ship, not leading to an earlier scene where Serenity tells Mal if he ever looks at Zoe like that again the ships going to vent all the oxygen into space.
He's dead, dead as a can of spam, and they buried him (there's a clue, don't know about anyone else but around these parts we tend to bury DEAD people, you know, people who are dead, not ones that are just sleeping of a minor stake through the heart flesh wound), take solice in the fact that it's party time for all the little worms, because unless they're magic worms he's not coming back.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Do i want Wash to be alive, of course i do. We all do i think. But in all likelyhood he is in fact very dead, and will stay dead.
So if Wash really is dead, what happens now? Well i read some posts about how Zoe might become like a mothery figure to the crew. I think, unfortunately, that might already have been taken by Inara, as she is described as a kind of maternal figure for the ship. But it's possible that Zoe might become a motherish figure. If not, you could still have her be a stone-cold killer as well as a grieving wife, maybe. Hey, how about her start to treat River as kind of her kid? idk, that doesn't seem like it could work, but maybe they could develop some sort of relationship. And Inara could definitely sort of fill in as the conscience of the ship, which used to be Book's job. And she could expand slightly her role as a maternal figure.
And then of course you have Wash's place to fill in. Who could that be? Well, River could definitely be the new pilot because as Mal said "clearly, there's some ... aptitude." Give her a month and she'll be flying just as good as Wash did. And maybe she could inject some humor, not much, but some. I mean she was kind of funny in the series, partly because of her uber-logical nature ("day is a vestigial mode of time measurement based on solar cycles. it's not applicable. ........ i didn't get you anything.") So i could see her being kind of funny. Idk, she definitely wouldn't be a perfect Wash, but she'd be okay. And in space you don't need a pilot that often, just take-offs, landings, and some mid-course corrections and things. So most of the time on a planet, and possible on jobs, if her Reader skills were needed, she could be away from the bridge. And a lot of the time in space too. So she could still be big character, and still have her relationship with Simon, which would change a lot due to her no longer being super-crazy. Just mildly disturbed.
Simon and Kaylee might become sort of like Zoe and Wash. I mean, Simon is pretty darn funny and he will constantly screw up in his relationship with Kaylee. Over and over and over again. And she'll forgive him over and over and over again. So that would inject some humor into it as well, and there would be the whole relationship thing between them which would allow something of romance to the show that Zoe and Wash added in a limited way.
So Wash isn't absolutely necessary, and Book is not absolutely necessary either. The surviving character's could fill in most of their duties, simply out of their natural personalities i think.
Book: What are we up to, sweetheart?
River: Fixing your Bible.
Book: I, um… What?
[Pan over to River, who works on a book with pens, brushes, and loose pages.]
River: Bible's broken. Contradictions, false logistics… doesn't make sense.
Book: No, no. You - you can't...
River: So we'll integrate non-progressional evolution theory with God's creation of Eden. Eleven inherent metaphoric parallels already there. Eleven. Important number. Prime number. One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. Noah's ark is a problem.
Book: Really?
River: We'll have to call it "early quantum state phenomenon". Only way to fit 5,000 species of mammals on the same boat.
. . .
Book: River, you don't… fix the Bible.
River: It's broken. It doesn't make sense.
Book: It's not about… making sense. It's about believing in something. And letting that belief be real enough to change your life. It's about faith. You don't fix faith, River. It fixes you.
Personally, i'm on River's side of that one.
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its a nice story...and has a lot in common with the fellow who got his friggin eye shot out by Mal and left for dead in "Serenty" part 2 (the tv episode...lol). In the comic book, hope not to ruin this, but hes alive! Granted with a robotic eye n all that...but nevertheless, he was probably sitting there forever bleeding out of his eye and he was alive and kickin...until he had a run i nwith a certain browncoat again.
Even so...kind of an unlikely story...well put tho
~~~~~~~~~~
"There is a sense that this is still not over. It's hard to put a finger on what's so special about this project and about this group of people, but it's just one of those things you have to trust in, and relish. I am very, very proud."
---Jewel Staite on "Firefly" and "Serenity" in "Finding Serenity" (essay collection by Jane Espenson)
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
My theory as too why Wash is dead:
He had a big stake through his chest.
He had a BIG stake through his chest.
He had a REALLY BIG STAKE THROUGH HIS CHEST!
This is FireFly, not star trek. They didn't bury him on a moon created by some kind of "Genesis Device" that will miraculously revive his fetted corpse minus his mind, which was passed on to Serenity through his "Vulcanised Rubber" mind meld.
They won't rescue him, planet exploding around their ears in Serenity 2: The Search for Wash, and they won't take him to mount cyanide where an ancient Gosling ritual won't be used too reunite his body with his mind that has been hilariously melded with the ship, not leading to an earlier scene where Serenity tells Mal if he ever looks at Zoe like that again the ships going to vent all the oxygen into space.
He's dead, dead as a can of spam, and they buried him (there's a clue, don't know about anyone else but around these parts we tend to bury DEAD people, you know, people who are dead, not ones that are just sleeping of a minor stake through the heart flesh wound), take solice in the fact that it's party time for all the little worms, because unless they're magic worms he's not coming back.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
You seem to be under the impression that a really big steak through the heart will kill you. It doesn't always do so today, it surely doesn't in Wash's time, and the point of "STEERING COLUMN!" is that it didn't even do so in the 1960's on Earth That Was.
Please read the whole thread before you post. And if
I had no idea what I was setting upon the world when I started this post. It is truly the thread that wouldn't die.
Hey, if the thread won't die, how can Wash? "He's not really dead as long as we remember him." As a fictional character, I submit doubly so. ;)
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Quote:Yeah and someone survived a pole through the brain once but 99% people die, and if you see someone get a pole through the skull in a film and they slump down looking pretty much dead and everyone leaves them as dead we can pretty much take it as writ that they are dead, no matter how much it'll make you cry.
Originally posted by pastorbadger:
You seem to be under the impression that a really big steak through the heart will kill you. It doesn't always do so today, it surely doesn't in Wash's time, and the point of "STEERING COLUMN!" is that it didn't even do so in the 1960's on Earth That Was.
Quote:Please check your facts and actually watch Serenity before you post. The EMP plainly came from a Reaver ship, and since you are obviously not all that invested in your own opinion or you poorly reasoned 'theory' why should anyone else be?
Please read the whole thread before you post. And if"it's too long to read all of it", well then, since you just aren't all that invested in your own opinion to make it worth the time, then why should anyone else here waste the time reading yours?
So what's your cunning and well thought out plan to resurrect Book, no wait let me guess, Book wasn't really shot, the projectile was stopped by a can of tomato soup, which is why it looks like he was bleeding, and the reason everyone thought he was dead was because he had passed out after eating a dodgy burrito.
After all we all hate real life consequences being portrayed in shows, that's why we're not on a FireFly fan site not discussing Firefly and we are on a Star Trek website discussing how a neutron surge through the bus b buffer brought Scotty back to life through a freak convergence of the space-time continuum.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Yeah and someone survived a pole through the brain once but 99% people die, and if you see someone get a pole through the skull in a film and they slump down looking pretty much dead and everyone leaves them as dead we can pretty much take it as writ that they are dead, no matter how much it'll make you cry.
Please check your facts and actually watch Serenity before you post. The EMP plainly came from a Reaver ship, and since you are obviously not all that invested in your own opinion or you poorly reasoned 'theory' why should anyone else be?
So what's your cunning and well thought out plan to resurrect Book, no wait let me guess, Book wasn't really shot, the projectile was stopped by a can of tomato soup, which is why it looks like he was bleeding, and the reason everyone thought he was dead was because he had passed out after eating a dodgy burrito.
After all we all hate real life consequences being portrayed in shows, that's why we're not on a FireFly fan site not discussing Firefly and we are on a Star Trek website discussing how a neutron surge through the bus b buffer brought Scotty back to life through a freak convergence of the space-time continuum.
Well! Aren't our panties just all in a bundle?
You made yourself look a little foolish : the "EMP came from a reaver ship/no it didn't/yes it did" argument has been dealt with ad nausium. Again, read the thread and everyone else's opinion before you steal some more considerate soul's time.
Resurrect Book? As a man of the cloth myself, I'm just as happy to see his character go. How would you feel if they had, say, a "fry cook with an evil past" character? Wouldn't you take it personally?
Finally, as for the pole through the head foolishness, that topic has also been well covered by witty and well-meaning folks who took the time to read. I'll spoon it to you : No one says it's likely in the real world. It's just well within the realm of possibility. It gives hope to those in need of it.
(Here's where you splutter an adolescent rant about how important your opinion is and what a yob I am. Take the bait. C'mon. Look! I'm crossing your bridge...)
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Quote:Not really I just replied to you in the same manner to which you spoke to me, which I guess means you must of thrown your toys outta the pram huh
Well! Aren't our panties just all in a bundle?
.Quote:I know, I read it, but it's still there in your original post for all to see, so when you accuse me of "not taking time" in my opinion you're attacking me for doing what you did, which would make you a hypocrite, wouldn't it?
You made yourself look a little foolish : the "EMP came from a reaver ship/no it didn't/yes it did" argument has been dealt with ad nausium. Again, read the thread and everyone else's opinion before you steal some more considerate soul's time.
Quote:You're a man of the cloth? What cheese cloth? Since I'm not a fry cook I don't think I could take it personally.
Resurrect Book? As a man of the cloth myself, I'm just as happy to see his character go. How would you feel if they had, say, a "fry cook with an evil past" character? Wouldn't you take it personally?
Quote:So you're theory is very improbable and requires faith against reality to believe it? I think that was my point thanks for confirming that.
Finally, as for the pole through the head foolishness, that topic has also been well covered by witty and well-meaning folks who took the time to read. I'll spoon it to you : No one says it's likely in the real world. It's just well within the realm of possibility. It gives hope to those in need of it.
Quote:In the last two posts you've accused me of being a troll (which is funny since this is the only thread you've posted on and you seem to have a vested interest in offending people and causing arguments...) and said I have no right to voice my opinion, seemingly because it's different to yours (I notice how you haven't posted anything here against those who support your view, whether they've read the entire thread or not).
(Here's where you splutter an adolescent rant about how important your opinion is and what a yob I am. Take the bait. C'mon. Look! I'm crossing your bridge...)
Not going to say your a yob or anything else, merely point out that attacking people for apparently displaying the self same behaviour that you have throughout is hypocritical...
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this is turmimg into a real world events thread
I expected more than petty bickering
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature
I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.
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Tell PastorTroller, I posted an opinion PT personally attacked me for no reason other than no one's allowed to have a opinion not officially endorsed by him/her.
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why do you feel that way?
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature
I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.
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Maybe because PT immediatly told me I have no right to an opinion followed by accusing me of being a troll.
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where, exactly did he do that?
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature
I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.
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since you just aren't all that invested in your own opinion to make it worth the time, then why should anyone else here waste the time reading yours?
Unilaterally deciding my opinion is not 'good enough' for the thread.
Look! I'm crossing your bridge...Implying I'm a troll.
I'm just speaking too PB in the way (s)he spoke to me, (s)he could have quite simply and easilly not replied or chosen to discuss it rather than telling me my opinion is worthless.
PB chose to start bickering, and that's what PB got.
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by bringing up the reaver/alliance ship argument you gave PastorB every reason to believe that you hadn't read the whole thread,
as to the second one: that is very obscure and only someone who was looking for an insult would actually see one
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature
I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.
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I brought up the Reaver/Alliance thing after the accusation, and the troll implication is fairly blatent.
Whether or not I read the entire thread is completely irrelivent, the attack was way over the top and if PastorBadger really thought that I should read the entire thread because I was going over old ground then there's better ways of doing it than saying my opinion is worthless.
Especially since my post was largely tongue in cheek and PB's was largely lets attack that guy for having the wrong opinion.
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he wasn't saying it was worthless, he was saying that if you hadn't read the whole thing that you didn't see your own opinion as having enough worth to invest the time needed to read the thread and that if you didn't value your opinion that much that noone else would either
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature
I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.
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i.e. my opinion is not worth the time to read it, i.e. it is worthless.
You obviously agree with PB's theory, otherwise you wouldn't judge him with such lattitude and me with none whatsoever. If you've decided that I must be the one in the wrong because you prefer his opinion fine, but it takes two to argue and by his own admission PB has been baiting me, ergo he wanted an argument, and that's what he got.
Not particularly fantastic behaviour for "a man of the cloth".
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if you don't value your own opinion enough to read the whole thread then you find it worthless. look at it from that point of view
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature
I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.
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Except of course that wasn't the statement, the statement was equivelent too "You HAVENT read the entire thread" and "NOT reading the entire thread makes your opinion worthless".
There's no IF there at all as you suggest, he was saying specifically that my opinion is worthless, and this is also backed up by later statements.
I do value my own opinion enough to read the thread, which I did but I simply don't have the time to read every single post, I read as many as my time will allow. At the moment I have to complete an update on a website much as I did last night before I go away for a week in about three hours time.
The continuing assertion that by not reading every post I have no right to a voice simply sounds like "Since I have a life outside this website, I have no right to post on it".
And by his own admission PB wanted an argument, and chose to pick it with me, how do you account for that?
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now, wash is my fav charechter ever! and should be kept alive at all costs, kill off mal, inara, jayne, just dont kill off wash, he WILL be back, joss wont let such a popular charecter be kiled off, if its a compotision between book coming back and wash coming back, it'll unfortunatly be book,(DAMN YOU! MYSTERIOUS PREACHER!
)
but, and its a big butt, wash will be back eventually, maybe not in serenity 2, but definatly in firefly series 2.
thank you, that is all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RAGLESCHFLUGLE!!
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Quote:
Originally posted by zzetta13:
cut to Serenity: reaver takes a bite out of Wash, pinned to the pilot seat, looks up and replies " Tastes like chicken "....drum roll
No...
He tastes FUNNY! Get it?
"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"
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I'm not going to bother responding to citizen because he won't see anything from anyone else's point of view
I would like to say that Wash WILL be back, but not being Joss, I can't.
I can however say that I would love to see Wash return
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature
I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.
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Quote:Guywhowantsafireflyofhisown preaching to others about not seeing it from other peoples point of view.
Originally posted by Guywhowantsafireflyofhisown:
I'm not going to bother responding to citizen because he won't see anything from anyone else's point of view
FUNNY!
The child who doesn't even know the difference between a joke and a fight, as proven numerous times in other threads, preaching.
You obviously can't see it from my point of view, nor do you want to because you believe that no ones point of view besides yours and the trolls you support is worthy of existence, that would make you far worse than me.
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Hey, at least (s)he didn't ignore you completely.
Quote:
Btw, I never said Wash can't still be alive, I said he shouldn't still be alive. Big difference, at least IMO.
There was more to it, but I didn't hear a word about this aspect of it.
Or maybe that's a good thing.
* steals back into the shadows to be ignored again, happily *
"We need to keep our heads so we can ... keep our heads."
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
My theory as too why Wash is dead:
He had a big stake through his chest.
He had a BIG stake through his chest.
He had a REALLY BIG STAKE THROUGH HIS CHEST!
A stake through the chest isn't a sure fire death sentance. Wash isn't a Vampire. Remember this is Firefly, not Buffy/Angel.
"I'm not going to say Serenity is the greatest SciFi movie ever; oh wait yes I am." - Orson Scott Card
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Just so everyone knows, I did read the whole thread. Now that that's covered.
Tracey, the ex-soldier from the episode The Message has come up a few times. About how he was dead, and shipped in the mail, and then wasn't dead anymore. I'd just like to point out that Tracey wasn't pole-through-the-chest dead. He was faking dead, just like River and Simon did in Ariel. It's different. Tracey was perfectly healthy and then he, or those in charge of him, told him to inject something that would "suspend suspend cerebral, cardiac, and pulmonary activity in order to induce a proto-comatose state." Look at Simon in Ariel. When he gave River the shot he was calm. He knew it would work out alright, because even if this isn't something that is commonly done, it is something that's done. So it's not really right to compare Tracey's situation to Wash's in any way.
Next, the Spike reference. From what I've read, on other boards and such, a lot of people were angry when Spike was magically resurrected. I loved Spike's involvement in Angel Season 5. But still, I think that Spike coming back cheapened his death. Knowing that he'll come back, watching the sacrifice in Chosen means a lot less (to me). I'm not trying to start anything about the Spike issue. I'm just saying, that isn't really a wonderful example to site about a back-from-the-dead that everyone loved.
It's also been stated many times that Serenity will bring Wash back because that's what sci fi does. I think that's a pretty bad point. I don't think that the writers on this show would do something just because it's expected, and I'd be more than a little disappointed if they did.
For what it's worth: I do think that Wash is dead. And if he isn't, and he's brought back in Serenity 2 (in a well written way), then I'll probably love his involvement in that movie. But it won't be the same to watch that scene in Serenity, it will be cheapened.
Wash was killed for a reason, as was Book. And the reason was that there's no reason. Life is hard and war is hell and there are casualities. Firefly wasn't ever about everything going perfectly. It wasn't about an ideal future. It was about normal people living a normal life.
-
DB: Doesn't exactly fit the thug in the profile alley. Wait, what?
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Quote:
Originally posted by pinballwizard:
Urg, now we have Serenity 2: In Search of Wash. That's the last thing i'd wish on anyone. Unless, they tie it in with finding out Books past, cause therre's no way he's coming back.
No, I am not insane, I am crazy. Thank you for asking.
Star Trek III: Search for Spock. Except with less of the Vulcan katra-transferrence issues. And less of the blowing up of planets, and less of the total angst of "YOU KILLED MY SON!"
Yeah. I'm just really not seeing Wash as alive. In the Serenity Visual companion, there's a pretty graphic image of what they wanted. Also, has noone consider this: They would have to remove the giant telephone-pole-sized-spike from not only Wash, but the seat and Serenity herself.
I'd like to believe Wash is alive, and that's not only because of the guy on the old official Browncoat board with that name. (Ah, we had so much fun in the old chatroom. Universal, this taking down of the site had to be a fault.) But like I can't bring myself to believe in a God, I just can't quite ged my head around all the "if"s and "then"s and "it's possible"s.
Later, there will be a way for me to figure out how to get an image of the Wash is impaled scene up. And with that will come more arguments.
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May not be smart, and it may not please you, but you're definitely gonna see what I have to say.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eso:Quote:
The memorial thing is wrong too. Sure Book's body might not be there, but we know darn sure Mr. Universe didn't up and leave. At the very least they probably burried his buffy bot if the Reavers somehow ate him. So, there were bodies to be burried. Besides I think they probably did bring Book's body onboard all Tracy style.
`````````````````````````````````````````````````
Ok.. First of all .. there were bodies there. No one ate Mr Universe or his wife-bot.. or Mal couldnt have gotten back to the same hallway where everyone was layed up hurtin'. Secondly they did't bring Book's body with em Tracy style.
In the bloopers reel, Mal telling the crew after getting his big damned idea from Operative. The words were,"Zoe, you and Simon get these bodies
together."
"We got time for grave diggin cap'n?"
"Youre gunna rope em together, five or six right across the nose of the ship. Put Book front and center, he's our friend we should honor him"
"Jayne try not to steal all thier $hit. Kaylee?, go find that kid takin a dirtnap with the baby jesus, we need a hood ornament"
I believe that is a close rendition. Anyway Book came along for the ride on the nose of Serenity. Course, the only thing left of the preacher were his skinny bones, but that is beside the matter.
Let's make this clear, it's a blooper. He ran with it, because it was funny. It isn't in the script. It didn't happen. We don't know whose bodies they so ingraciously but needfully stole.
Quote:
In the Pilot.. the EMP was NOT discussed. It was a magnetic grappel.
In the script, it's "an electronic pulse."
Close enough for us to guess that they mean EMP.
/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\
May not be smart, and it may not please you, but you're definitely gonna see what I have to say.
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I'd just like to point out that in the original script of Serenity, Wash didn't die. So if joss was planning for two more movies as well, and he let wash have a spike (or whatever people are calling it) poked through him, he must have had some plan to keep everything moving. I still think wash is either alive or will come back to the story (and not in just flashbacks) but i made my point and opinion way above in the mass of answers in this thread, so just wanted to add this and it'll be my last word here.
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way to go! A possible way for Wash to come back! But if this doesn't happen now im comin for you!
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In my mind Wash is absolutely, inarguably dead.
He is dead in a dramatic sense because it would be extremely cheap and phoney for him to have a miraculous recovery. I would never trust Joss again if he brought Wash back to life.
He is dead in a medical sense because HE HAD A SPIKE THE THICKNESS OF MY ARM SLAMMED THOUGH HIS CHEST!!!! How can anyone believe he lived through that?
Some have argued that the ship that fired the EMP was an Alliance ship, and thus they were first on the scene. I don't believe it, but even if it was we know that the ships that fired the spikes were definitely Reavers. We saw Reaver ships floating behind Serenity, and after the crew took off to the Black Room the first group to follow them was...Reavers. I hardly believe that they would be performing emergency surgery on Wash.
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Well, as far as I know - no one has raised a meta-argument about Wash. Not plot holes or clues, but the fact that this is a Joss Whedon production.
So, 2 things.
a. Its hard to stay dead in a Joss Whedon show. Now sure, this isnt Buffy, there isnt any 'most powerful Wiccan in North America' to zap anyone back to life (I still wince at the thought of that line), but we know the tech exists to take all the organs out of a person and then put new ones in and he's walking and talking and trying to get some with Kaylee. Its the ol' Arthur C. Clark quote "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
b. Sad to say it, but Whedon isnt above pandering to his demographic - Willow,once again - is magically changed into a pagan lesbian without any prior plot notification. Pandering to two major demographics. Firefly fans cant seem to wrap their heads around the basic idea that people die - even the ones who dont deserve it. I think its damned ballsy to kill off two main characters - adds realism - but theres enough flak from the fan base that Wash might just pull a Buffy and shuffle back to the mortal coil.
Bah.
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Quote:
Originally posted by GrrrArg:
I think its damned ballsy to kill off two main characters - adds realism - but theres enough flak from the fan base that Wash might just pull a Buffy and shuffle back to the mortal coil.
Bah.
Um, maybe not the thread, but Book never felt like a major character to me.
/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\
May not be smart, and it may not please you, but you're definitely gonna see what I have to say.
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This is a very interesting thread. While I agree with those who think the theory it is discussing is far-fetched, I see nothing wrong with developing such a theory.
I'm writing a Masters thesis on the death of Wash and the effects it had on the fans. Something I will be particularly looking at are the ways that fans responded to the death; studying the ways fans express their feelings being an important factor.
What would be interesting to me is knowing why PastorBadger took the time to write out his theory and reply to the responses to it, and why everyone else has contributed to this thread.
If you would like to tell me your own experiences of discussing Wash's death, please do respond to this post or drop me an e-mail.
When I think of an interesting signature you'll be the first to know.
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An entertianing theory. Could be in the sequal, the next comic book, or the forthcoming novel, if they ever happen.
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Your address and e-mail are apparently deleted by the server.
Any study on the effect Wash's (apparent) death might have had on Firefly fans would be incomplete without a complete understanding of the fan culture in general. Something almost exclusive to the science fiction genre, and lop-sidedly American. (After all, Tom Baker (Dr. Who) once told me he could at least go to the park in England.)
It's fertile ground, but isn't the scope a little large for a thesis? After all, the reaction to Wash's death is hardly unique. Think how much fuss the Trekkers made when they killed Kirk in "Generations"?
Quote:
Originally posted by Aramina:
This is a very interesting thread. While I agree with those who think the theory it is discussing is far-fetched, I see nothing wrong with developing such a theory.
I'm writing a Masters thesis on the death of Wash and the effects it had on the fans. Something I will be particularly looking at are the ways that fans responded to the death; studying the ways fans express their feelings being an important factor.
What would be interesting to me is knowing why PastorBadger took the time to write out his theory and reply to the responses to it, and why everyone else has contributed to this thread.
If you would like to tell me your own experiences of discussing Wash's death, please do respond to this post or drop me an e-mail.
When I think of an interesting signature you'll be the first to know.
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Thanks for letting me know about the address, don't know what's up with that.
I'm well versed in the area of fan culture, and have written many papers on the subject before.
I am using Wash's death as a case study because the fandom is relatively small and easy to manage. Firefly fandom is also much more recent, and the events are 'fresher' in people's minds. The internet also means that I have more access to fan reactions and interactions, which have been archived since before Serenity to the present. Being a fan myself I also have more of an understanding of the text involved.
This is simplification, obviously, but you get the gist.
When I think of an interesting signature you'll be the first to know.
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Quote:
Originally posted by GrrrArg:
Sad to say it, but Whedon isnt above pandering to his demographic
And thank God for it. Because certainly the fanboys would still be all up in arms about Buffy dying at the end of the eighth season (or whatever season it was she sacrificed herself in).
Of course Wash is going to be back, in addition to the fact that Alan is signed on for two more movies, the fact remains that Wash has to come back for the simple fact that I really really want him to.
To address the physical concerns of Wash's reappearance, sure, sure, it could happen. Anybody who argues that it couldn't happen is an idiot because anything 'could' happen. The question is weather it did happen. And that my friends is the rub.
You see, some people, like Citizen, will argue that he is dead, not coming back and it will never be. And some people, like our fair thread creator here, (sorry, your name escapses me) will say that it is pure and simple that he's alive and well. But here's the kicker; Joss Whedon is the only one who knows. Well, him that the bear that he tells his secrets to at night, and he ain't talking.
So, the point of this is not to get into a petty discussion about probablity and distinctive weight ratios (whatever that means), it's when you brush your teeth, put on your Kaylee footie pajamas, and snuggle up with your River Tam plushee, what will ease your mind enough so you can snuggle down in your Spongebob Squarepants brand down comfortor? For me, I like to think of Wash as perpetually alive. Just cracking wise and making love until the end of time. Do I have any backing for that? No. Do I have any data or charts? No. Does the first message in this thread make me feel better? Yes. Will it work for you? Not necessarily, but raining on my parade and poking holes in the theory won't make you feel any better. So, just find what works for you, and tuck it under your pillow. Cause, for now, it's all we have to work with.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Terri:
River Tam plushee
Where can I get one?
"I'm not going to say Serenity is the greatest SciFi movie ever; oh wait yes I am." - Orson Scott Card
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I know it is a sin to not read every last scrap of a thread before posting, but well, here I go mentioning my .02
1) The BDM was so that Firefly could be resuscitated, I thought. Joss could just write around the movie like it never existed. A sequel could take place before it, a second season could take place before it, hell, it could just be forgotten (STORYLINE-WISE ONLY!!!)
2) Point of odd fact regarding hat people can survive- watch the movie "Blackhawk Down". In real life, the PFC who had an RPG lodge in his abdomen, and the Delta Operator who was blown in two by an RPG that hit some ammo cans he was standing on (in real life- in the movie he was in an MTVR 7-ton truck , I believe) both survived their injuries. They were both sort of "allowed" to die because there was no way in hell the medics could replace the organs that were pulverized. Kowalewski(RPG), was left in a pit because he had UXO(unexploded ordinance) in his abdomen. He hemorraged to death in that pit some time later. Martin, the Delta Operator, who was blown in half, not only made it back to the base alive with essentialy nothing left of him from the midsection down, but was able to speak and grip the hand of the doctor who worked on him. Too bad that it just doesn't seem believeable, even though miracles do happen, and thus would look bad in a movie/t.v. show.
3) Quik Clot sucks. I take it out of my IFAK and throw it in the bottom of my pack, take two extra pressure dressings, a cravat, and a safety pin instead. Also, bungee cords make good tourniquets, even though they do damage the tissue somewhat. It is cool watching it work on water though- just make sure your face is upwind of the powder(!)
Man, that was a really trivial post- hmph. Well, better next time.
"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."
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Hey PastorB, I had your e-mail, but it seems to have disappeared into the ether when I tried to move it out of my junk mail, damn thing!
Any chance you cold send it again?
When I think of an interesting signature you'll be the first to know.
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Reviving this thread revives the Wash-lover and Wash-hope in me. Discuss more folks.
--
//breathe today So many lies s w i r l i n g
All A R O U N D You
you're S U F F O C A T I N G
the e m p t y shape in Y O U
s t e a l s your b r e a t h
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I'd be interested to know whether anyone who contributed in the early stages of this thread has changed their opinion on PastorBadger's theory?
When I think of an interesting signature you'll be the first to know.
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Not me, just let me know when we're gonna leave ta go rescue Wash from the evil Alliance.
Here I sit upon the pooper about ta give birth to an Alliance trooper.
I wear a blaster under my Browncoat
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I'm still with PastorBadger on this.
btw Wash ain't dead. I just saw him on CSI last week and there were a number of sightings at Dragon Con. If that isn't proof what is?
Z
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Oh, just stop it. Wash is dead. He may appear in Serenity 2, but as a flashback or dream. Get over it.
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Last Renaissance festival I went to I had fried greenFaerie on a stick....dang tasty
Z
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Now here's an interesting little discovery I just made...every time I refresh the window, the "times read" counter advances 1. Now, assuming that the counter doesn't periodically reset, that means that since the first post in this thread, the page has been reloaded 6866 times. Since I for one have visited the thread multiple times (including posting a few times), that would imply that the thread has been viewed by far less than 6866 viewers (guest status has the same effect). I would gather from this that the implication is that the vast majority of accounts here are no longer active.
Now, of course, this all hinges on my assumption that the viewer counter isn't periodically reset. Can anyone set me straight?
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I think it's pretty clear from the way Zoe says that Wash aint coming, that he's dead. Sure, Zoe wouldn't be aware of all the stuff you're talking about, but from the standpoint of the script that was the Joss Whedon telling us, "Yes, Wash did just die."
And in the commentary Joss refers to Wash as dying, not as seeming to die, or appears to die. Joss killed off Wash at the that point to make you go, "Are they going to make it through this? Is it possible that they might all die." Seeing that he was willing to kill a major character like that and especially in that fashion makes you a whole lot more worried about the other characters.
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You know what I think is interesting....?
Lets suppose that in the film Wash did get saved and he was alive and well (if injured!) at the end of the film.
Would anyone be debating the fact that he should be dead????? I don't think so - all these people who say that he must be dead, probably wouldn't be saying it if he wasn't dead, if you get what I mean?
Not sure of the relevance of this, but thought it was interesting!
I am a huge Wash fan and am gutted to find out he is dead (only found Firefly/Serenity a couple of weeks ago!) but can't see how it will fit into the story if he isn't dead. Although I am hoping and praying that he isn't, coz he is so gorgeous!!
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LLA,
One thing that I am sure of is that when the "Joss verse" returns (and it will)there are going to be some disapointed ppl one way or another.
What has me leaning toward Wash coming back to Serenity? Lets say that the BDS would have been allowed to continue at least another season. Would the writters have written him out two or three shows past the OIS eps? I think not. I think that Wash would have remained alive and healthy the full season then another if there had been one.For the BDM Joss needed a story with some bite. Some punch power. Seemingly killing off a couple of main characters would give the story just that.
My wife and I having seen Serenity first, then only as a rented dvd, well Wash's death was sad, but it wasn't a big deal. After that, renting the entire FF series from NetFlix and really enjoying the characters,well Wash's death does become a big deal.Book's too. How could Joss do that to the fans? Doesn't he like us? My thinking is that he already had some sort of planned story for Wash post BDM. It may only be in flashbacks,who's to say but Joss. I feel that Book's story will come out too. The verse is incomplete. There has been no closure and ppl want to know. They Have to know.
Z
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Yeah I agree, I only saw a couple of the episodes and then watched the film, then started watching the series from the beginning, and Wash's death in the film was a shock, but I got to being a fan through the series.
I'm sure I read something that said that the film took things to where Joss wanted them to be by the end of season 2....so perhaps he would have been killed off eventually, but not as quickly as in the film. Hey, I don't care if he is dead in the film, if only they brought the series back, from where the last episode finished. But having read a lot of these posts, it would appear that even if a series 2 appears, it would be after the film events......such a shame!
But he's bound to appear in flashbacks and things, and I expect that it will be really funny! I also agree with someone else on this discussion, about how Zoe will be after his death - thats what was interesting about her - the solider woman, and the wife...
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Okay, first off: long-time lurker, first-time poster (apart from a fanfic ages ago, about a card game). Couldn't remember/find that old log-in and such, so I created a new one.
Secondly, yes, I read the entire gorram thread.
My take on Wash being alive or dead...? Both camps have heaps o' logic and fact on their side. And that matters how much? Exactly none.
If (and yes, there's a whole lot of "if" coming off this post) there is a continuation in whatever form of the 'Verse, Wash's survival or non-survival may just be decided by someone outside the discussion -- including, to a point, Joss.
If some producer/exec/high-muckety-muck says, "Sure, we'll bankroll a new movie/series/puppet show, but only if you can bring in the whole original cast..." then my money is on Joss bringing Wash right back.
Luckily, Joss being the genius he is, I actually have some faith that he'll do it well (even though I do have some reservations on how he's done similar things in the past).
Just my two-tenths of a Platinum.
Let the flaming begin...
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I agree that Joss had it planned all along. Firefly, as good as it was, was all about the crisis of the week. Dreams and flashbacks of former crewmates/spouses gives the core characters more depth and allows for all manner of story hooks to be inserted at any time, under any circumstances.
I think that is the significance of Wash and Bok's deaths.
I suspect that the Jayne character will be the next casualty. The character does not have to die but will leave the crew of Serenity before too long, I suspect. There has always been a lot of tension between the Captain and Jayne and now that River is in a much more prominent position on the ship, I'm thinking Jayne will not be on board much longer.
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Quote:
Coming back from the dead is stock and trade in science fiction. I'm hard pressed to remember a 'verse where it hasn't happened. Someone help me out. Can you think of any?"
Depends on if you're excluding sci fi literature (which i personally get much geekier over than TV; it's almost always much better quality storytelling). Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Game" 'verse jumps to mind as a particularly good example of "dead is dead and no gettin' around it." OSC is a genius storyteller who, like Joss, understands that the most powerful sci fi doesn't use conveniently "futuristic" plot devises to let characters (or audience) escape the painful reality of the story. One of the things that is so ruttin' brilliant about this 'verse is that the crew have to face consequences and hard choices with no one but each other; that's why I love them so much - because their life is so much like my life, only with spaceships - no dear and fluffy Lord to save them when what happens isn't to their liking.
Sorry for the rant. I get really wound up about the "socio-political relavence" of sci fi... yes, i'm a geek.
Q
The wheel never stops turning...
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OK, OK, I give. In truth, I want Wash back as much as anyone. So, here is how I see he comes back...
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A) that's funny.
B) Collapsed lungs and damaged heart isn't even the begining of the trouble. It cuts right through the spinal cord, which is instant death no matter how much technology one has. Then it clips the side of the heart, severing many vital arteries, while force trauma collapses the left ventricle and crushes the rest against the rib cage. The lungs aren't just "collapsed" as many people have so quaintly put it; They are torn apart. It ends it's journey by bursting through the sternum and springing probably all the ribs, which then in turn pierce half a dozen other vital organs. How do I know this? I sat down with my science teacher mother and her model of the human body, with the movie paused at the moment of impact. We discussed the subject at length.
I hate to be a downer folks, but no power in the verse can bring him back. *SOOOOOOOOB* 
. I wish I could believe you.
***
When in doubt, consult the hamster.
Also, I can kill you with my brain
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Quote:
Originally posted by GrayAlbatross:
A) that's funny.
B) Collapsed lungs and damaged heart isn't even the begining of the trouble. It cuts right through the spinal cord, which is instant death no matter how much technology one has. Then it clips the side of the heart, severing many vital arteries, while force trauma collapses the left ventricle and crushes the rest against the rib cage. The lungs aren't just "collapsed" as many people have so quaintly put it; They are torn apart. It ends it's journey by bursting through the sternum and springing probably all the ribs, which then in turn pierce half a dozen other vital organs. How do I know this? I sat down with my science teacher mother and her model of the human body, with the movie paused at the moment of impact. We discussed the subject at length.
I hate to be a downer folks, but no power in the verse can bring him back. *SOOOOOOOOB*
***
When in doubt, consult the hamster.
Also, I can kill you with my brain
People have survived with that before. With crappy medicine.
--
//breathe today So many lies s w i r l i n g
All A R O U N D You
you're S U F F O C A T I N G
the e m p t y shape in Y O U
s t e a l s your b r e a t h
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It happened in an episode of Grey’s Anatomy called “Into You Like A Train Wreck” … except one (the guy) lived the other (the girl) died… it’s possible.
But it's Firefly/Serenity. So anything can happen.
***********************************************
We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit those who would do us harm.
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Ah, so this is a necro post is it? When I first saw this I thought it was a complete joke, and it was amusing, but well thought out all the same. nice work. "Our chocolate River" hahaha, dark chocolate, the best kind.
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I agree wholeheartedly that the deaths of Wash and Book were brilliant bits o' storytellin'. They also made me cry.
That said, I think that we could see some damn creative ways of "Getting Better" to quote Python Monty Pictures ltd. from our Joss.
Remember, Joss is Boss.
I think that having one or both come back in a plausible way would have extreme emotional impact, both for the crew and for the audience. Especially if done as was suggested further up and long ago in this very thread - namely:
"Honey, I'm Home!"
"Wash, you're dead."
"Dead! Hmmm. Well, I got better."
And then have him turn out to be an alliance spy/assassin &c.
This would play mary hobb with Zoe, which would not doubt screw up Mal's ability to survive ((She's the brains behind the outfit, doncha know)) and probably would get Jayne shot and//or knocked out by a 90 year old -- man...with man boobs.
Hilarity and drama ensue.
And then there's the Shepherd coming back. I could see it now -
River is convinced that miracles can happen and becomes a born-again Christian, along with a thoroughly impressed Jayne. Simon is constantly trying to figure out what happened because all signs of the massive bullet wound in Book's gut are gone, and Mal gets confused hilariously.
Now, I know this doesn't deal at all with the technical sides of how they "Pulled through, sah" after there apparently mortal woundings, in their own particular "Idiom". But truthfully what we're discussing here is not what is medically feasible in the Firefly//Sereniverse. It is what effect on the story would this situation bring, and then how to carry it out. The latter part is always going to be secondary to a good story. Even in Ender's Game ((A book I thoroughly approve of)), the Ansible and Philotic technology is so obviously counter to our current understanding of physics ((Which, hope of hopes, might change.)) but is necessary for the story, and therefore we suspend our disbelief. And come on, is not Joss a master of story telling?
All in all, it is unsurprising and entirely inevitable that this thread has once again popped up, and once again I post by .02 plat. All I ask now is if Pastor B. is here, would he please reply and give us his general thoughts on how his suitably massive and peer reviewed//criticized thread has become? That would be great. And seeing him again would be nice.
"I'm not going to say Serenity is the greatest SciFi movie ever; oh wait yes I am." - Orson Scott Card
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It is entirely possible that Wash survived the landing but I think the creamation or burial might have done him in. 
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Anyone else notice that this thread just won't die? Kinda reminds me of a few Joss Whedon characters...
Quote:
Originally posted by rallem:
It is entirely possible that Wash survived the landing but I think the creamation or burial might have done him in.
We don't know that they did bury him. We know there was a marker put up. The crew would not have thought much of it if there was no body there when they got back, considering the circumstances. They probably didn't have Book's body either, but they put up a marker for him. (And if anybody says they strapped his body to the front of the ship...
).
"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."
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Of course Zoe said he wasn't coming, she had last seen him pinned like an itty bitty bug to his pilot's chair. However, while watching the movie, I was expecting Wash to be back. Kept expecting him to walk down the ramp at the end. Was actually disappointed when he didn't.
Yeah, so he had a gorram spike [nod to steering column] through his chest.
Couldn't the operative have had a squad still on the ground? After all, they were expecting Serenity to come back. So, medical assistance is possible.
Alternative to Wash being dead but bringing back Alan: Wash's brother, Dry. :P
Shepherd being dead made sense to me (as I've stated in posts elsewhere on the forum). After all, he was a man of faith and there is a pattern of martyrdom in that faith.
I am not a Buffy fan, nor have I watched more than one episode of that particular series, so I'm not clear on Joss' predilection for reincarnation. But it makes sense in Firefly.
Thank you Pastorbadger for providing us with an alternative.
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Just for Old times sake -
"Of course Zoe said he wasn't coming, she had last seen him pinned like an itty bitty bug to his pilot's chair."
Steering Column!
This thread just won't die. Which I think is ironic, considering it's content.
I say we have an entirely unscientific poll to determine if Wash is dead or not. We shall count each time this thread has popped back up after a month of dormancy as a vote for Wash possibly being in a state of quasi-not-yet-deadness three times! no more no less! Then we can count every time a person has brought up the Steering Column! argument as one vote for and one half vote against the above Wash proposition. And then afterwards we can duke it out and decide that this thread is really needing to take a cricket bat to the head, as it's obviously a zombie thread, and get no further in our logical discussion of Why Wash is 100% Alive and Mostly Well.
Your thoughts?
And would the Real Pastor Badger Please Stand Up!?
"I'm not going to say Serenity is the greatest SciFi movie ever; oh wait yes I am." - Orson Scott Card
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Quote:
Originally posted by micjwelch:
Anyone else notice that this thread just won't die? Kinda reminds me of a few Joss Whedon characters...Quote:
Originally posted by rallem:
It is entirely possible that Wash survived the landing but I think the creamation or burial might have done him in.
We don't know that they did bury him. We know there was a marker put up. The crew would not have thought much of it if there was no body there when they got back, considering the circumstances. They probably didn't have Book's body either, but they put up a marker for him. (And if anybody says they strapped his body to the front of the ship...
"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."
Book's body was strapped to the hull of Serenity so they did have the bodies to Wash, Book, and Mr. Universe the three people buried.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rallem:
Book's body was strapped to the hull of Serenity so they did have the bodies to Wash, Book, and Mr. Universe the three people buried.
That was an OUTTAKE! You could tell because Kaylee couldn't stop laughing! That and it was in the "Outtakes" section of the dvd...
"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."
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I thought that outtake was funny too.
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I loved Jayne/Adam's reaction - Just a gobsmacked "wha?" and a smile.
"I'm not going to say Serenity is the greatest SciFi movie ever; oh wait yes I am." - Orson Scott Card
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I spoke with Alan Tudyk at the first Starfury con in the UK after the pre-screening of the movie. Since I had only seen the movie once, I had thought that the spike that got Wash had punched through his stomach. But Alan put me straight and told me the spike went straight through Wash's heart. Now A-Lions medicine maybe pretty good, but it only take two minutes for a brain starved of oxygen for permanent brain damage. Must admit I still hold out hopes, superguts or something like that. Wash was the Zander Harris of the crew, and pretty much I believe the humour outlet for Joss. Zander survived right to the end of Buffy so seems to be a major writing need for Joss so one would hope that Wash is the same.
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That's so cool! Meeting any of the BDHs would be amazing!
And you're right, there are certainly some serious logical problems with making him be only mostly dead, but I think what we need to consider would be the affect on the story if he were to be brought back, Magical Max or not.
"I'm not going to say Serenity is the greatest SciFi movie ever; oh wait yes I am." - Orson Scott Card
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What will finally decide whether or not Wash is dead is the next piece of Firefly/Serenity story set after the first Serenity movie-- whether it's a book, movie, comic, series, etc. And that will be up to Joss, and Alan, and all the other people involved in making it. What's come before is true enough... but just as Serenity-the-movie was not the same as Firefly-the-series, I think whatever comes next may well be something new too. And if it is a new ball game, anything could happen...
What happens until then, we can only guess. If it makes you feel better to think Wash is dead, fine, that's your right. If it makes you feel better to think Wash is alive, fine, that's your right too.
Personally...
STEERING COLUMN, baby! I want Wash back, alive if not completely well. (There's gotta be some sort of plot complication to keep things flyin'.) I'm sure Joss & Co. could write it at least as well as so many fanfic writers have, and I've seen several wonderful examples of Resurrection!Fic right here in the Blue Sun Room. Will it cheapen the movie? Not for me. If anything, I thought it was pretty damn cheap to kill Wash off for the sole reason of jerking around the fans, or "raising tension," as TPTB called it. But hey, that's me, and I'm sure there are plenty out there who don't agree.
If that puts me up to my neck in the river De Nial, fine. It's all imaginary anyway, so I'd like to imagine it the way I choose. Kudos to PB in thinking it through so well, and giving this Browncoat a bit more hope. If my hopin's a problem to you... well, I'm just gonna be all Kaylee-like, put on a big sweet smile, and say, "that's okay too, just think what you wanna." And we'll all look forward to the next Firefly/Serenity project happily. 
one of the FORSAKEN (self-appointed): We aim to burn!
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Are you sure we're not going to meet Gilbert "Gib" Washburne, Hoban's twin brother?
Although Zoe was not able to explore a relationship with Simon while Wash was around, now it's a different matter.
And of course Gib has the hots for KayLee. That's going to be funny, where every time the "landing party" needs to make an unplanned expedient getaway, err...takeoff, they'll be coitus interruptus for Gib & KayLee (Gib is as good a pilot as Wash).
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