Male and Female Imponderables--Why, Then The World's My Oyster

POSTED BY: Tristan
UPDATED: Sunday, July 16, 2006 06:37
VIEWED: 20725
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TRISTAN

Friday, July 14, 2006 1:14 PM

Greetings once again, fellow Imponderable-ers! The next chapter in our saga continues.

Last thread:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=22236

Anyone is welcome to post. All we ask is you keep it civil and try to refrain from expletives. Besides that, post away and have fun!

______________________________________

GUYWHOWANTSAFIREFLYOFHISOWN

Friday, July 14, 2006 1:24 PM

I'm happy today!

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.

TRISTAN

Friday, July 14, 2006 1:26 PM

Your happiness is a good thing, right? Why are you happy?

______________________________________

GUYWHOWANTSAFIREFLYOFHISOWN

Friday, July 14, 2006 1:28 PM

'cause Mal just said "The explosive diarrhea of an elephant" in chinese and my DVD's aren't playing

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.

MSG

Friday, July 14, 2006 1:28 PM

Morning all and sundry:) Wow a whole new thread:)
I have to go to a meeting at my new school, but I should be back in about 2 hours or so:) Hey just as a ponder...Why do guys have such a hard time admitting they might be wrong?? ( not trying to be mean to you guys, but I've just had a lot more experience with guys refusing to admit this than women and I wondered if it was something they were raised to do or if it was some sort of ingrained thing or what) HUGS to all see you shortly

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

GUYWHOWANTSAFIREFLYOFHISOWN

Friday, July 14, 2006 1:33 PM

I have never had a problem admitting I was wrong when I was presented with some sort of proof to that effect

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.

PENGUIN

Friday, July 14, 2006 1:35 PM

I don't know...I've never been wrong before!

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, July 14, 2006 1:50 PM

Because it's not fun to feel you're wrong?

I've been working on it in recent years. I used to be very bad at admitting I was wrong. Except when I can admit it to myself life goes more smooth, so I try to.

**********************************

**********************************

PIZ

Friday, July 14, 2006 1:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Guywhowantsafireflyofhisown:
I have never had a problem admitting I was wrong when I was presented with some sort of proof to that effect

Ditto.

Now, using the word "proof" might make it sound like the bar is set pretty high, but that's not true in the majority of cases. If I can be shown I'm wrong, by whatever sufficient means, I'll gladly admit it. Why? (One might ask.) Because there's always gain, never loss, in learning the truth.

What I won't abide, though, is the demand that I accept something that's wrong, because it might hurt someone's feelings if I don't. I'll do my best to be courteous about it (though that goes away if courtesy is not offered in return), but I refuse to deny what's true.

--
"That's what government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

GUYWHOWANTSAFIREFLYOFHISOWN

Friday, July 14, 2006 2:00 PM

exactly

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, July 14, 2006 2:01 PM

Piz, remind me why you're single?

Oh, right, most people are fools who don't like honesty.

**********************************

**********************************

KENOBIUS

Friday, July 14, 2006 2:02 PM

Good morning, ladies and gents.

I don't mind admitting it if the other person doesn't blow it out of the water and gloats or does the "We should have listened to me!" type stuff. If the right-all-along person is cool about it, I'm cool with it. We're human beings after all.

EDIT: You don't know how giddy to I am right now, being able to turn on the television and have Firefly on, ALL DAY!

http://tinyurl.com/ekv6z

PIZ

Friday, July 14, 2006 2:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Piz, remind me why you're single?

Oh, right, most people are fools who don't like honesty.

This is one of those interesting times when text in an internet discussion group is insufficient to get the whole meaning of something. I can't tell whether that's a compliment or an insult (or neither).

Giving the benefit of the doubt

, sometimes they're being foolish (note the subtle change from "what they are" to "how they're acting"

), but there are two other common cases. Sometimes they're trying to pull something over on you. Other times they honestly don't comprehend. I always check for scams first (self preservation), then mistakes (benefit of the doubt, though a different kind than mentioned above), before I conclude foolishness (don't bother any further).

--
"That's what government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

RUGBUG

Friday, July 14, 2006 2:19 PM

Copied from last thread so I could say: ME, TOO!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan:
Yet, as the fates would have it, I am in insurance. The last place anyone I know would have pictured me.

I work in insurance and for the most part it is a job that allows me to live in the town I want and to own my horse.

Seryn: I had to go through a similiar situation when choosing what I want. I got my degree, but knew I didn't want to work in that field. The only "job" I would really want to do on a daily basis involves horses and those jobs are notoriously low paying with long, hard hours. Even if you get a decent job in the industry, it is then very difficult to afford a horse of your own, much less show it. So, I opted for a job that could support my habit. It's not always the easiest thing to get my booty in to work everyday, but I manage. And everytime I go see my horse, I am reminded why I am doing this.

TRISTAN

Friday, July 14, 2006 2:22 PM

Guy, I am going to assume you found the site that has the sound files...if not, are you hearing things in your head?

MSG, morning!
I will admit if I have done something wrong...as long as I am not goaded about it. The whole "You were wrong, admit it!" gets under our skin and causing us to shut down any proper response we were going to put forth. Not a proud thing, but it is there. I agree with the others; I will freely admit it if there is proof.

Morning, Penguin, PR, Piz, Kenobius!

______________________________________

GUYWHOWANTSAFIREFLYOFHISOWN

Friday, July 14, 2006 2:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan:
Guy, I am going to assume you found the site that has the sound files...if not, are you hearing things in your head?

none of the above I was watchin' "Our Mrs. Reynolds" on sci-fi

did you forget that was today?

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.

PENGUIN

Friday, July 14, 2006 2:25 PM

Mornin'!

"The hero of Canton, the man they call Jayne..."

GUYWHOWANTSAFIREFLYOFHISOWN

Friday, July 14, 2006 2:27 PM

this thread moves fast

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.

MAVOURNEEN

Friday, July 14, 2006 2:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan:
The whole "You were wrong, admit it!" gets under our skin and causing us to shut down any proper response we were going to put forth. Not a proud thing, but it is there. I agree with the others; I will freely admit it if there is proof.

_____________________________________

Morning, All!

Just waiting for photobucket to come up so I could show off my new acquisitions...

Tristan's comment sounds like it could have come from my husband's own pie hole..."gets under the skin, shuts down any response" sums it up, perfectly. Most men will admit when they are wrong, but I've noted after 14 years with Mr. Mav that he never wants it rubbed in his face, before or after acknowledging the "error." But, he's a good egg, and cuts the lawn well, so I keep him around.

"Have you ever been with a Warrior Woman?"

TRISTAN

Friday, July 14, 2006 2:41 PM

Guy, I do not have cable, but I do remember hearing about the marathon. Oops.

______________________________________

GUYWHOWANTSAFIREFLYOFHISOWN

Friday, July 14, 2006 2:53 PM

ahhh

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.

PIZ

Friday, July 14, 2006 2:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan:
The whole "You were wrong, admit it!" gets under our skin

(in best Our-Mrs-Reynolds Wash voice:) Yeah yeah!

I spent most of my life dealing with two of the queens of lording mistakes over others: my ex and my mom. Boo hway-hun duh puo-foo, they'd gleefully pounce on every little mistake, no matter how small. These days, I'm happy to say, I no longer have to deal with the former, and I no longer allow the latter to get away with it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan:
Morning, Penguin, PR, Piz, Kenobius!

How do?

--
"That's what government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

DAYVE

Friday, July 14, 2006 2:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by msg:
Why do guys have such a hard time admitting they might be wrong??

admit we're wrong... what? and throw the entire universe as we know it into complete and utter chaos????

(i don't need no stinking map....let's just drive around until something looks familiar....)

endeavor to persevere...

ONEMANSHORT

Friday, July 14, 2006 2:55 PM

I don't want to sound sexist or really mean here, but I think it's just their incredibly large egos getting in the way of them admitting they're wrong most of the time. The boys I know will not admit they're wrong until they have literally physical proof, and I think this is just ridiculous. If you just tell them how they are wrong they'll say no. For example, I was working in a group in Global, and we came to some question and the boy in our group said one answer and the girls told him that it was wrong, and what really happened, etc... He wouldn't believe me so we had to look it up in the textbook Because he's normally good in global he let his inflated ego get in the way of seeing the truth. I'll admit not every single guy is like this, and maybe, being in high school, the guys haven't quite matured yet, but it does really gets on my nerves. This is just from my experience with them though.

MIRCEA

Friday, July 14, 2006 2:59 PM

Morning yall.

MSG- I've got no problem admitting I'm wrong when I am actually wrong. I just refuse to say I'm wrong when I'm not.

Lets reverse this a bit too. My experience has always been with women who refuse to admit they're wrong even when presented with evidence to the contrary. (my mother is especially good at this) So, why is it you ladies sometimes have this difficulty?

DAYVE

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mircea:
women who refuse to admit they're wrong even when presented with evidence to the contrary.

red is blue.... up is down.... night is day.... naw, never happens...

you're a brave man Mircea

endeavor to persevere...

TRISTAN

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:05 PM

Wow, it's picking up in here!
Morning, Mavourneen, Dayve, OneManShort!
Mircea, I think you are new here...welcome! Glad you can join us.

______________________________________

GUYWHOWANTSAFIREFLYOFHISOWN

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mircea:

Lets reverse this a bit too. My experience has always been with women who refuse to admit they're wrong even when presented with evidence to the contrary. (my mother is especially good at this) So, why is it you ladies sometimes have this difficulty?

my mom did that once

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.

GED

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:05 PM

If I'm wrong about something, I have no qualms admitting it. But if we're debating something, I will argue the point as best I can.

__________________________________________________
This above all, — to thine ownself be true.
http://www.myspace.com/artv

MIRCEA

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dayve:
[you're a brave man Mircea

endeavor to persevere...

Or incrediably foolhardy.

PIZ

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mircea:
My experience has always been with women who refuse to admit they're wrong even when presented with evidence to the contrary. (my mother is especially good at this)

Not that I'm agreeing that women are exclusively (or even primarily) guilty of this sort of thing, but from ex and mom I used to get a lot of what amounted to "Well, sure, you're right, but you still have to grant that I have a point. If you don't then you're just being a S.O.B., therefore the facts don't matter and you lose, you prick."

Funny how it never was a matter of winning or losing to me, just one of finding the truth, whatever side it came down on. But to them, winning was everything and any flimsy excuse they could use to "win" by making me feel bad they would cling to as if their lives depended on it.

--
"That's what government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

GUYWHOWANTSAFIREFLYOFHISOWN

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:10 PM

very brave

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.

DAYVE

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:10 PM

let me ask this, (before being handed my hat)..... what are women thinking when they ask for a man's opinion on a new dress or article of apparel..? "Does make me look fat...?'

how can we honestly answer that without getting in trouble...?

(i'll take a lack of response to mean that this has been discussed already...)

endeavor to persevere...

GUYWHOWANTSAFIREFLYOFHISOWN

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:11 PM

I've often wondered that myself

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.

MIRCEA

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan:
Wow, it's picking up in here!
Morning, Mavourneen, Dayve, OneManShort!
Mircea, I think you are new here...welcome! Glad you can join us.

______________________________________

Sorta new I guess. I was on as JubilantLurker before the blackhole swallowed us and killed me. I've been lurking for a year or more.

PIZ

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dayve:
red is blue.... up is down.... night is day.... naw, never happens...

A certain ex of mine could look you right in the eye and say "The sky is blue," then immediately continue with "The sky is not blue," and both would be lies. I don't think truth ever entered into any utterance she ever made (or will make). Wish I'd found that out sooner than I did, but life goes on.

--
"That's what government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

DAYVE

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:14 PM

and one for the men.... just wondering if you have your own 'fortress of solitude'..... a place to get away from things you don't want to deal with at the moment - a room, workshop, treehouse?

we need these things, no?

endeavor to persevere...

MIRCEA

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:16 PM

Dayve- I'm pretty sure there is no right answer on that one except maybe to say something like. 'Baby, you're just beautiful in anything you wear."

Course, you might wanna take cover just in case I'm wrong on that last bit

GED

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dayve:
and one for the men.... just wondering if you have your own 'fortress of solitude'..... a place to get away from things you don't want to deal with at the moment - a room, workshop, treehouse?

World of Warcraft

__________________________________________________
This above all, — to thine ownself be true.
http://www.myspace.com/artv

RUGBUG

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:17 PM

I don't have a problem admitting I'm wrong. But like the guys, if you shove it in my face, I will shove back and not give you the satisfaction of the admission. I just clam up....

On matters of opinion, I'm pretty good at validating someone else's stance without compromising my own. And if someone's argument is good enough, I have no problem telling them so and even adopting it as my own.

But let's just say if I KNOW I am right, you're gonna have a real hard time getting me to back down.

MAVOURNEEN

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dayve:
let me ask this, (before being handed my hat)..... what are women thinking when they ask for a man's opinion on a new dress or article of apparel..? "Does make me look fat...?'

how can we honestly answer that without getting in trouble...?

(i'll take a lack of response to mean that this has been discussed already...)

endeavor to persevere...

*Mav comes over and puts her arm around Dayve's shoulder*

Dayve...let me let you in on a little chick truthism...We don't dress for you. We dress for other women. We want OTHER women to admire our clothes, etc. And in "most" cases, if a woman asks you if something makes her look fat, she wants to make sure other women don't think she is fat.
There is no one good answer to this question, however. Your best bet is to mumble something about yardwork or transmission fluid and leave the area immediately.

Of course...there are other schools of thought...

"Have you ever been with a Warrior Woman?"

MIRCEA

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:24 PM

Nope, no fortress of solitude. That would imply I knew someone who felt I was deserving of privacy

PIZ

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dayve:
let me ask this, (before being handed my hat)..... what are women thinking when they ask for a man's opinion on a new dress or article of apparel..? "Does make me look fat...?'

how can we honestly answer that without getting in trouble...?

*takes a big, slow step away from Dayve...*

--
"That's what government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Because it's not fun to feel you're wrong?

Funny how I can have already answered the question from a female point, and no one acknowledges it.
Perhaps I should expand? I have never liked being wrong, and, as the men have stated, when someone tries to "make" me admit it, it feels like they're trying to grind me under their heel, so I feel even worse about being wrong and don't want to admit it because that would make it solid.
As for the "does this make me look fat?" thing, I can't say I ever ask that. Sometimes I'll ask the simpler "how does this look?"
And, unlike most of my species, I am dressing for you, not other women.
Can I say again that the fortress of solitude can be easily overused? Treat such things with caution.

**********************************

**********************************

PIZ

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mircea:
Nope, no fortress of solitude. That would imply I knew someone who felt I was deserving of privacy

ROTFLMAO!

You wouldn't happen to be me, would you?

I tried several times to have space of my own, but the ex would just take it over every time. Once I set up a tiny (like 3 ft x 3 ft) meditation space - the very next day it was covered in dirty laundry. Wasn't even near the laundry room.

Her motto seemed to be "What's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine."

--
"That's what government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

NVGHOSTRIDER

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:31 PM

Morning to all you wonderful folk.

Gotta prepare for a parade with my kids from work so I'll be in and out.

Every person should have a fortress of solitude, even if only in their heads.

As for the women in clothes thing...
I learned from my sisters dad that it is better to work smarter, not harder.
Guys, brush up on the fashion. Think about colors and patters and materials. What do you like seeing? I found it much easier to help a woman dress than to get the off hand questions when its time to go.
That, and there is more of a chance the clothes will come off easier when she's happy how she looks throughout the day/night.

Just one womanizers opinion.

"I shot the sheriff

But I did not shoot the deputy"

RUGBUG

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:31 PM

Yep, we mostly dress for other women. If the men like it, that's just bonus.

The problem men run into is that if you say it looks nice and accidently compliment an area of our body we HATE ("It makes your legs look really sexy"), we are NEVER going to believe you and will even accuse you of lying just to make us feel better. Best bet is to figure out what parts of her body your SO likes best and creatively say the article of clothing makes that look terrific.

And alternatively, if it really does make us look fat, I know I would rather hear it. But in a kind way. Sadly, most men lack the fashion knowledge to say something looks bad without implying that it looks bad because of our bodies. "The boxy cut and stiff fabric does nothing to show off your wonderful figure" isn't usually part of a man's vocab.

Edited b/c NV was on the same wavelength. Awesome!

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Piz:
Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Piz, remind me why you're single?

Oh, right, most people are fools who don't like honesty.
This is one of those interesting times when text in an internet discussion group is insufficient to get the whole meaning of something. I can't tell whether that's a compliment or an insult (or neither).

I've always considered myself to be well-spoken and also a good writer. Have I been so unclear?
Okay. "Remind me why you're single" is in fact meant to be a compliment in most cases. At times it is used sarcastically, but I try to avoid sarcasm online as it's easily misread; no tone of voice to go with it.
Thank you, then, for giving me the benifit of the doubt. That was the correct way to interpret it.

**********************************

**********************************

SPACEANJL

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:35 PM

I come from a family where whole meals were thrown into chaos by the need to hunt for textbooks to verify a fact. (ie win an argument.) Both my father and I have minds like steel traps - we retain everything, especially trivia. Makes us great at pub quizzes, and hell for other people. Neither of us do the "wr" word well - we are occassionally not as right as we would like to be, but that is as far as it goes. Both my brother and my mother are amiable souls, who do not understand the need to rush away from the table and fire up the internet bold right now to sort out a quibble on the exact film quote from some obscure sci-fi thing, but to us, it's important.

We're sad that way.

Fortress of solitude - the husband is desperate for a shed to keep his seven plus boxes of bike bits in. He wants to build his own car, too.

I'm a proper girl - my own time is a hot bubble bath, a glass of something cold (and maybe bubbly) and a book.

DAYVE

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mavourneen:
*Mav comes over and puts her arm around Dayve's shoulder*........best bet is to mumble something about yardwork or transmission fluid and leave the area immediately...

thank you very much for the kind gesture.... i often need guidance in such matters...

and yes, leaky transmissions fill the bill nicely....

endeavor to persevere...

TRISTAN

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:35 PM

I, too, have unfortunately come across females I could not win against. No matter what proof I'd bring to the table, it would be countered with "yes, but...". I gave up!

Place of solitude...yep, I have two of them; my armory and my costume shop. The wife will somtimes come into the costume shop, but the only time she spends in the armory is on her way through to the laundry room/storage area. I can get away and create something in the meantime.

Morning, Rigbug!

PR, seems men and women think the same on the being wrong thing, then.

______________________________________

MIRCEA

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:37 PM

Sorry PR wasn't meaning to step over you or anything.

I'm pretty sure I'm not you Piz, but I suppose we could have been sucked into and alternate universe or something. I seem to give off pheromones that say to people "whats mine is yours" and "yes, complete stranger, I'ld love to listen to your problems." It's kinda annoying

MAVOURNEEN

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
And, unlike most of my species, I am dressing for you, not other women.

Really?

Think about it, PR. If a man comes up to you and says "Hey, nice pants" (Yeah, like THAT would ever happen...)it's nice. But if a woman comes up to you and says the same thing, I for one am very pleased and would say "Thanks! I bought them at X." or something like that. Not to show off where I bought it, but to expand the conversation. Most women I know dress for other women to notice, not for men.

"Have you ever been with a Warrior Woman?"

TRISTAN

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:42 PM

Morning, NVG! Have fun with the parade!

RugBug, on the clothing thing...my wife ocassionally asks my opinion on what she is wearing, and I give her my honest opinion, be it "meh..." or "damn!", each comes with an explanation and possible pointers. I do not dress my wife, but I do like to help her look her best. Coming from a costumer background, I have caught myself saying things like "I think you should wear that necklace; the color will tie the ensemble together". Never had a problem telling her how she really looked, and I think we get along better for that...but, of course, I think she is the most beautiful, lovely creature in the world!

Morning, SA! My family would ocassionally go to the lengths yours does to settle a disagreement. We are all big fans of random trivia.

______________________________________

DAYVE

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Yep, we mostly dress for other women......

come on, is this really true..? the lure of the siren isn't only in the song....

Quote:
"The boxy cut and stiff fabric does nothing to show off your wonderful figure" isn't usually part of a man's vocab

now see, this just opens up a whole new can of worms....

endeavor to persevere...

PIZ

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I have never liked being wrong, and, as the men have stated, when someone tries to "make" me admit it, it feels like they're trying to grind me under their heel, so I feel even worse about being wrong and don't want to admit it because that would make it solid.

That's why I think the best approach is to put the truth out there and leave it at that. Then it's up to the other person to accept it. If they do, admitting they were wrong becomes superfluous (and if they do, a simple "OK" or something is all the response that's needed). If they don't, then unless they try to shove it down your throat (in which case you have to stand up for the truth), you just leave it at "I disagree" and nothing more is necessary. No need ever to grind 'em about it.

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
As for the "does this make me look fat?" thing, I can't say I ever ask that. Sometimes I'll ask the simpler "how does this look?"
And, unlike most of my species, I am dressing for you, not other women.

I'll answer this by referring to FF: I think that Saffron's outfit in Our Mrs. Reynold's makes her butt look big. Compare it to when she's wearing pants in Trash - it's much smaller there. Clearly she's not fat - it's the clothes making her look wider than she really is.

So, would a "You're not fat at all, but that outfit does bad things" be acceptable?

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Can I say again that the fortress of solitude can be easily overused? Treat such things with caution.

True, but I would think that if the fortress is being overused there are deeper problems in the relationship that ought to be ferreted out. It's a symptom, not a cause.

--
"That's what government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

MIRCEA

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:46 PM

So Tristan out of my own pointless curiousity and completely off thread. Do you belog to any of the "Societies for wacking friends with sharp pointy objects"?

DAYVE

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mircea:
we could have been sucked into an alternate universe or something.

now you're getting into the whole Einstein string theory and the unification of forces deal.... far out, man!

endeavor to persevere...

TRISTAN

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:51 PM

Mircea, I used to belong to the SCA, but got sick of the politics, the combat boots and plastic armor, and the lack of real interest in historical study. Sorry to bore everyone else, but I'll give a brief story of me and fighting.
I have almost always been a fighter, even before the SCA. After the SCA, I got into Ren Faires, and became a producer, director, actor, choreographer, and cotumer for a few years. Since I got out of that, I haven't done much, but the wife (who was one of my fighters) and I host a Fight Club at our house about once a week using boffer weapons.
Sorry for the longness, but I don't think you've heard any of that before.

______________________________________

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mavourneen:
Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
And, unlike most of my species, I am dressing for you, not other women.

Really?

Think about it, PR. If a man comes up to you and says "Hey, nice pants" (Yeah, like THAT would ever happen...)it's nice. But if a woman comes up to you and says the same thing, I for one am very pleased and would say "Thanks! I bought them at X." or something like that. Not to show off where I bought it, but to expand the conversation. Most women I know dress for other women to notice, not for men.

Really. Maybe it's partly being bi, maybe it's just me, but I only care if a woman thinks I look good if she thinks I *signifigant look* look good ya know? And as that's far less common in my life thus far than a man thinking I look good, I would say I'm dressing for men. And when I'm with someone, yeah, I'm dressing for them. I don't need to impress anyone else. I want to know if they think it looks good.
For example, I love flowy things; outfits with lots of loose fabric. Skirts and flowy sleeves. But my ex did not think that kind of thing was sexy, so when I was going out with him, I would wear my other favorite clothes. The ones with some slink. He thought I looked great, so I didn't really care if some girl said "Hey nice top." I just cared that he wanted me out of that top pretty badly

Sorry, that might've been TMI. It's fun to tease dates with clothes, makes the end of the night more interesting.

**********************************

**********************************

RUGBUG

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Piz:
I'll answer this by referring to FF: I think that Saffron's outfit in Our Mrs. Reynold's makes her butt look big. Compare it to when she's wearing pants in Trash - it's much smaller there. Clearly she's not fat - it's the clothes making her look wider than she really is.

So, would a "You're not fat at all, but that outfit does bad things" be acceptable?

That's acceptable in my world.

And I completely agree with Saffron's clothing. She looked HORRENDOUS in Our Mrs. Reynolds. Her Trash outfit was much better and actually gave her a figure.

Dayve: Dressing to impress men is fairly easy. Dressing to impress women is much harder. With men it's about showing off just a little and hinting at something more. With women it's about color, cut, fabric, current styles, etc.

DAYVE

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
the fortress of solitude can be easily overused? Treat such things with caution

PR, i wasn't talking about getting away from SO or avoiding serious problems... but more of a quiet place for down time...

my SO's extended family hangs out here a lot and they are serious Scrabble freaks - me, not so much - that's a time when i head out to my little work shop and do some woodwork, auto repair or just sit on the porch and watch the birds - plus it's a shady retreat. I'm not escaping reality, just putting it on hold for a while...

endeavor to persevere...

MAVOURNEEN

Friday, July 14, 2006 3:59 PM

Ok, PR. While maybe TMI, it explains your viewpoint. I concede...and on most points agree.

"Have you ever been with a Warrior Woman?"

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, July 14, 2006 4:01 PM

Maybe that's why I don't care about dressing for women. I've never wanted to pour all my energy into keeping up with "fashion". I only care what looks good. A color can be "in" that makes me look dead, which means I don't buy any clothes that season. A color or color combo I hate can also be "in" i.e. bright pink with bright green. Gross. I don't follow such things. I don't understand why anyone would really want to.

I'm sure you weren't talking about necessarily spending time away from SO, Dayve. But sometimes it works out that way.
Of course, my expereince with this is exclusively from someone I refer to as Ex of Doom so I might not be unbiased in this area. In fact, I just might be bitter.

**********************************

**********************************

MIRCEA

Friday, July 14, 2006 4:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan:
Mircea, I used to belong to the SCA, but got sick of the politics, the combat boots and plastic armor, and the lack of real interest in historical study. Sorry to bore everyone else, but I'll give a brief story of me and fighting.
I have almost always been a fighter, even before the SCA. After the SCA, I got into Ren Faires, and became a producer, director, actor, choreographer, and cotumer for a few years. Since I got out of that, I haven't done much, but the wife (who was one of my fighters) and I host a Fight Club at our house about once a week using boffer weapons.
Sorry for the longness, but I don't think you've heard any of that before.

I mostly study/teach rapier these days.

Well yall, it's been fun, but I got work to get to. Talk to ya later

TRISTAN

Friday, July 14, 2006 4:05 PM

Mircea, thanks for dropping by!

______________________________________

DAYVE

Friday, July 14, 2006 4:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Dressing to impress women is much harder

I can see that. My SO is an art teacher, so she maintains a closet of appropriate work clothes and i know several 'city girls' who are all about the latest fashions - and one woman who is a buyer for a major department store chain... so, believe it or not, i've had the ladies fashion discussion before - and my point being that even though fashions change each season or year - how many ways can you make a dress...? all things considered, ie, color, fabric, cut and so on, a dress is still a dress.... ok, i realize i'm an idiot here, but spending hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a single dress is insane to me....

the price of my favorite jeans just went up to fify bucks - and the kids in Singapore or whatever third world country they're made in may only get the equivlant sum in a month....

it just seems to me that whole fashion industry is often ludicrous, pretentious, and even elitist - but that's just one mans opinion... (and, backing up the thread... i refuse to admit that i'm wrong....ha)

endeavor to persevere...

NVGHOSTRIDER

Friday, July 14, 2006 4:36 PM

Everything is that way. Case in point: I watched about five minutes of Smallville last night before calling B*%%$*^t. Counseled my baby sister about watching such crap. Had to redeem myself by watching Supernatural with her. She later called BS in Smallville and made me smile. We are all subjected to such crap all the time!

"I shot the sheriff

But I did not shoot the deputy"

RUGBUG

Friday, July 14, 2006 4:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I've never wanted to pour all my energy into keeping up with "fashion". I only care what looks good. A color can be "in" that makes me look dead, which means I don't buy any clothes that season. A color or color combo I hate can also be "in" i.e. bright pink with bright green. Gross. I don't follow such things. I don't understand why anyone would really want to.

PR: Just because something is in "fashion" doesn't mean everyone should be wearing it. You shouldn't let fashion trends dictate what you should be wearing. You take what you know about your body, about what colors work for you, what's in fashion and then find things that make you feel good and look good. Ex. I LOVE the color orange, have for years. The color orange is in fashion. The color orange makes me look like I've contracted the ebola virus. I found a cute top that has orange in it, combined with navy blue, which is one of my best colors and the cut of the top (conservative halter style) is one of the best cuts on me. Bingo: color, cut, fashion, and body style criteria are all met and because of that I feel VERY good in the top and it shows.

I don't pour all my time into keeping up with trends, but I do pay attention. I really like fashion, and just like many other things, it is an art. It may not be an art that appeals to you, but there is fun to be had.

MAL4PREZ

Friday, July 14, 2006 4:46 PM

Hi guys -

I think I have a bug. Went home early yesterday, snuck onto campus for free internet to post fic today (I'm such a junky) But I'm feeling a little looopy.

To catch up a few things -

Dayve: love the band names. Titty Bingo? How did that band not succeed?

CK - about SCV, the bottle wdance as wicked cool, the stands always lit up with camera flashes when we did that. And I get a lot of camera time in the finals performance, I could point myself out to you!! I remember a Sheri, but I can't remember who she was... Oh, and Phantom '89? Rocks! Even though I have to make fun of the guard. Cause I'm like that. I think my absolute favorite is Blue Devils '88.

Kenobius - too funny you saw it too!! That show is so famous, but it was a nightmare to put together. I swear they rewrote it 3 times.

Rugbug - I had a stint of riding in jr high. I tried 3' jumps and it scared the piss out of me! I didn't even finish. Go you with the pretty high-jumping horse!

As for flirting, I'm clueless. I act like me and if I happen to be flirty, it's subconscious.

That's all for yesterdays thread. Can't deal with today's - most post fic and be off to sleep some more!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

RUGBUG

Friday, July 14, 2006 5:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dayve:

it just seems to me that whole fashion industry is often ludicrous, pretentious, and even elitist - but that's just one mans opinion... (and, backing up the thread... i refuse to admit that i'm wrong....ha)

And I won't ask you to. I think you're correct...and yet, I still love fashion. I just like clothes. And I like the way a well cut dress hangs. There is a section in one of my favorite magazines (InStyle) that is called "Deals and Steals." I always laugh at the "steal" which is a $100 T-Shirt. Um, yeah right.

As much as I like fashion, I won't pay much more than $20 for an article of clothing (unless it has to do with horses. I have Hunt Coats that cost $400 and breeches that cost $220...one pair of which they wanted to cut off of me in the ER. I about had a fit. I broke my ARM, not my leg, thank-you very much!) I think the most expensive piece of clothing I own at the moment was $70 and I feel as gorgeous as Morena Baccarin in it, so I think it was worth it.

It also helped elicit a "Wow!" comment from an old flame, so that was worth it, too.

DAYVE

Friday, July 14, 2006 5:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Titty Bingo? How did that band not succeed?

i don't think i was ever in a band that took ourselves seriously... we played for fun and beer money... by my jr. year in college i had pretty much given it up - even cut the hair and sold the drums -

a band in Austin took the name Titty Bingo and were a local hit for a short time - that was one of the names i actually had input on - drummers get no respect... One name i wanted to use but never got to was Vic Black and the White Girls - guess i'll save that one for my come back tour!

endeavor to persevere...

KENOBIUS

Friday, July 14, 2006 5:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
CK - about SCV, the bottle wdance as wicked cool, the stands always lit up with camera flashes when we did that. And I get a lot of camera time in the finals performance, I could point myself out to you!! I remember a Sheri, but I can't remember who she was... Oh, and Phantom '89? Rocks! Even though I have to make fun of the guard. Cause I'm like that. I think my absolute favorite is Blue Devils '88.

Kenobius - too funny you saw it too!! That show is so famous, but it was a nightmare to put together. I swear they rewrote it 3 times.

I have a video of what appears to be the Summer Music Games of '92. Runs about 11:50, you should point yourself out, if you can.

http://tinyurl.com/ekv6z

MAL4PREZ

Friday, July 14, 2006 5:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kenobius:
I have a video of what appears to be the Summer Music Games of '92. Runs about 11:50, you should point yourself out, if you can.

If I could get a copy of it, I could pick out the times... I'm curious to see it anyway, it's been a long time. I have a VHS tape, but no VCR anymore, LOL!!

Try mailing it to mal4prez@hotmail.com. Thanks!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

COPILOT

Friday, July 14, 2006 5:33 PM

The yayness!
Former SO found a girl into D&D and computers and art and music. Basically everything he wanted me to be! I want to slit both of their troates (sp?)!

Things he promised to teach me: How to properly use a computer, how to cook, why D&D was so much fun! Although all he did was make me feel like shit (sorry Tristian) for not already knowing.

I'm actually kinda smart. Not that it comes acrossed really well online (I can't spell I stear away from my usual flowerly prose). But for four years everything I said was wrong. My own point of view? How can an opion be wrong? It can't that's the definion of opion f**ker! So basically I was just too scared to even open my mouth.

Actual yayness? I got to have sex with a really cute boy! With bigger parts! However not so big that it was painfull!

An I carried such a torch

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE

Friday, July 14, 2006 5:34 PM

Morning all. I promise not to bring politics into the thread, but can I just say that switching between the CNN coverage of the situation in Israel and the SciFi Firefly marathon is a little jarring? Course, Firefly with commercials is a bit jarring all on it's own...

"Does this make me look fat?": I actually mean it when I ask. Course, I never couch it in those terms, heh. It's taken awhile, but hubby has gotten to the point where he can give me an honest opinion of how clothing looks on me, especially when it comes to things I can't see real well, like my butt. He's saved me from buying several pairs of really bad pants.

And I'll have to agree with PR, I dress for hubby and for other guys (meaning, I like it when other guys are envious of hubby, etc). I've never been particularly good about giving a rat's ass about what other women think of me, hehe.

Hey M4P, hope you feel better soon! Sheri was one of the guard coaches for SCV back in the day. She's listed on SCV's webpage for the '89 Phantom, but not for '92. She may have left by then, I don't quite remember. I went looking through all the DCI videos on YouTube yesterday, and while I couldn't find a single on of the SCV '92 *show* (lots of the drum line though, heh), I did find one of the '89 show. Unfortunately the vid ended before the great shot of the huge Phantom tarp floating to the ground. And man on man, those 80's guards outfits are hi-larious!

Now I'm going to have to go look up the '88 Blue Devils show. I did find an SCV from '99 or 2000 that has a great close up shot of a friend of mine from high school, in the pit, so without a shako and quite recognizable. Quite the walk down memory lane, and I never did anything more than marching band and winterguard!

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

TRISTAN

Friday, July 14, 2006 5:35 PM

Ah, fashion. The only fashion I follow is that of the Renaissance period...everything else is middle-management slacks and dress shirts. Casual is jeans and a button-up shirt. Really casual doesn't matter.

______________________________________

NVGHOSTRIDER

Friday, July 14, 2006 5:37 PM

I think you may have been a bit too smart for him. He was probably afraid you'd excel beyond his abilities. Thats the kinda stuff that guys who are insecure with their man parts do!

Lotsa love for our COPILOT. She's tryin'.
Not like some of us sorry saps.

ADD: Hope you feel better M4P. Summer sickness is the worst.

"I shot the sheriff

But I did not shoot the deputy"

NVGHOSTRIDER

Friday, July 14, 2006 5:49 PM

Didn't mean to lump anyone on the board in with the sorry sap crowd. Feel free to beat me senseless. Just beware, I might get to like it.

"I shot the sheriff

But I did not shoot the deputy"

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Friday, July 14, 2006 5:53 PM

*beats Nvghostrider senseless*

I needed that! I'd had a long day.

*kisses nvghostrider better*

Desktop Hippie

COPILOT

Friday, July 14, 2006 5:57 PM

But I did not shoot the deputy!

Also I ment to put into my post this little tidbit.
The only good answer to do I look fat in this is 'I don't know can I take it off to make an objecitve compairison"? Of course followed by naughty sex on the floor, bathroom counter and the like.
Just my humble opinion!

An I carried such a torch

TRISTAN

Friday, July 14, 2006 5:59 PM

Afternoon, Copilot. I don't want to sound like a parent, but I hope you were safe! And we know you are intelligent...I agree with NVG; that's probably why the ex ran off.

NVG, it would take a bigger man than I to beat you senseless. So, I will offer you coffee.
Makes everything all better.

Afternoon, DeskTopHippie!

______________________________________

COPILOT

Friday, July 14, 2006 6:07 PM

Only once in my intoxicated life have I ever had unprotected sex! That wasn't last night by a long shot! We've both been tested since then! Yuck!

Just the boy I "dated" for 2 weeks during senior year of high school. We havn't managed to hang out without at least making out since! He's just too darn cute! I sound like such a moron in type!

An I carried such a torch

NVGHOSTRIDER

Friday, July 14, 2006 6:09 PM

MMM, Coffee.

Ex ran off because?: She was too smart and cute for him or because of his penis issues?

Thanks for the beating and kisses DTH. Posative reinforcement is always the best support for anyone.

"I shot the sheriff

But I did not shoot the deputy"

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Friday, July 14, 2006 6:10 PM

Good afternoon yourself :)

*is desperate for someone to notice her shiny new animated sig which she made all by herself*

Sorry. I'm a shameless attention seeker

Desktop Hippie

TRISTAN

Friday, July 14, 2006 6:20 PM

Copilot, shiny! Thought so, just had to be sure!

NVG, yes, coffee is the stuff of life! And I meant because of Copilot's superior intellect.

DTH, *as if noticing the sig for the first time* Say! Is that a new sig you have there? Looks mighty fine, indeed!

______________________________________

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Friday, July 14, 2006 6:26 PM

Why yes! It is a new sig! Can't think why you noticed. *looks innocent*

Copilot - I have absolutely no useful advice to offer. So have a *hug* I hope it helps!

Desktop Hippie

NVGHOSTRIDER

Friday, July 14, 2006 6:28 PM

I was just thinking how cute that is.

COPILOT- We live for the moronic pinings of post coital infatuation. Nothing more gratifying than having satisfied friends.

TRISTAN- Friends have protected me in the past more than my parents. I think Copilot can attest to that too. Besides, when you asked about protection I suddenly thought of an executive protection team I did a little work with. Poor little Copilot would have been wore out by anyone of those fellas. Maybe.

On the beat down thing...
You could take me Tristan, I'm a teddy bear. Or at least thats what everyone says.

"I shot the sheriff

But I did not shoot the deputy"

DAYVE

Friday, July 14, 2006 6:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:
The moronic pinings of post coital infatuation

now there's a tatoo for ya.....
or maybe a country song...
could be the first line in a mystery novel....

quite the phrase turner you are NVG....

hey did anyone see DH's cool new sig.....? so pretty..!

endeavor to persevere...

TRISTAN

Friday, July 14, 2006 6:43 PM

NVG, you just put into my head the vision of half-a-dozen suited executives standing around in the bedroom during happy time making sure everything was safe!
Hey, teddy bears can be tough!

______________________________________

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Friday, July 14, 2006 6:50 PM

... and on the back of Dayve's advertising, I will now mention that I have other animated sigs posted in the Blue Sun room

Yes I know I'm plugging shamelessly. I spent the whole day trying to teach a bunch of hyper Italians how to speak English. No one has paid any attention to me alllll daaaaay!!!! At least here I can get some nice vibes from the shiny folk.

I love this board!

Desktop Hippie

NVGHOSTRIDER

Friday, July 14, 2006 6:56 PM

It could be worse. They could have been a bunch of uppety Canadians. Or worse yet , a bunch of haughty Frenchmen.

And you have my undivided attention.

Look, something SHINY.

OOOOOH, SHINY.

"I shot the sheriff

But I did not shoot the deputy"

SMARTBUTDUMBBLONDE

Friday, July 14, 2006 7:06 PM

Don't worry, DTH! you can chill now you're here with us! *sends shiny vibes to the shiny DTH* hugs!
Ok, so I'll try to catch up...
Fashion: Sometimes I amke a point not to follow fashion. I just wear what I'm most comfortable in, mainly old jeans and my firefly and muppets t-shirts, and my ever-growing collection of Converse. I don't know about the most expensive piece of clothing, but I got my favourite pair of jeans (dark blue, shot through with multi-coloured threads) for just £2, (or $3.68 for you lot on the other side of the pond)!!

This probably won't help anyone else, but when I'm really, really depressed, I watch The 1st Wives Club, that is when even firefly won't cheer me up! I have learnt so much from that film, fool be the man who ever tries to divorce/chest on me!!
On the subject of films, has anyone seen Ravenous? I just downloaded the music from that, I love it, its so creepy!

Got a question., but it isnt really an imponderable: What weird things do you lot collect?

Eagles may soar, but ferrets don't get sucked into jet engines.
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

SMARTBUTDUMBBLONDE

Friday, July 14, 2006 7:09 PM

DTH, Ah cannae see yon animayted sig! sorry *gets rid of awful scottish accent* ahem.
To jump on the self advertisment bandwagon: I just posted the penultimate (sp?) of my Operative fic: check it out if you want!

Currently searching for the planet of the hot, rich yet appropriately hygenic man.
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

RUGBUG

Friday, July 14, 2006 7:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:

"I shot the sheriff

But I did not shoot the deputy"

The real question remains: Eric or Bob?

SBDB: I don't collect much anymore. I don't have enough room for anything. I do like hand painted coffee mugs, though. Have enough of those for my own coffee house.

I also have a small collection of junior fiction horse themed books. There is one collection in particular that I have that I love. It brings back such wonderful memories. The books were written in the 50s (no, I'm not that old) and I only need one more, but it sells for about $200, which is just too much.

MAVOURNEEN

Friday, July 14, 2006 7:12 PM

I collect copper molds. This side of the pond we call them Jell-o molds, you'd know them as pudding molds. I have them all over my kitchen. 'Bout 40 of them. I also have a pretty nifty collection of women's black velevet cocktail hats from the 40's and 50's hanging in a guest room - kindof artistic like, and there's about 25 of them right now.

"Have you ever been with a Warrior Woman?"

PIZ

Friday, July 14, 2006 7:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Smartbutdumbblonde:
Got a question., but it isnt really an imponderable: What weird things do you lot collect?

Heh. I get to tie in two sub-threads at once. You know those little packets that come in the box with anything electronic (and sometimes vitamins or some such), the ones that contain the "dessicant" that absorbs any moisture that builds up in the package? I used to collect those.

"Why?" everyone must be wondering. Because every one of those packets has a little phrase on it that was the name of my band (I play bass and sing): "Do Not Eat"

--
"That's what government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

NVGHOSTRIDER

Friday, July 14, 2006 7:18 PM

Bob of course. Needed some warm music this morning. Then of course No Woman No Cry cues up and had to change it. Though, I kinda like the Clapton version more when I'm driving. Like to finger the frets while I drive. Wierd?

Collecting crap? I tend to change from time to time. Currently collecting change for a new tattoo. Collecting for a collection.

"I shot the sheriff

But I did not shoot the deputy"

RUGBUG

Friday, July 14, 2006 7:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:
Bob of course.

I was hoping that was the answer. Was recently talking to a youngster (not really, she's 20) and she didn't even KNOW that it was Bob's song to start with.

I'm a fan of old ska and reggae. There's an amazing collection from Studio One that is perfect relaxing summer's day music.

TRISTAN

Friday, July 14, 2006 7:28 PM

NVG, the French-speaking, Quebecois half of me is partially offended at that statement.

SBDB, weird things I collect...well, it used to be ex-girlfriends...
Up until about ten years ago it was Legos...all sorts, but mostly the medieval-themed ones. Nowadays, I like to collect coins and old books, mostly.

RugBug, I have to put my vote in for Bob.

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