Renouncing my ways...

POSTED BY: deepgirl187
UPDATED: Thursday, October 19, 2006 08:18
VIEWED: 18052
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DEEPGIRL187

Tuesday, June 27, 2006 1:50 AM

Have sympathy on this poor hypocrite. She knows not what she does.

For years I have spouted my negative views on all that is Buffy. And while, to a certain extent, I still retain those views, I'm attempting to be more open-minded.

I say all of this because I just finished watching the first two episodes of Buffy. My original reasons for doing this were mostly Firefly realted (I wanted to see some of our BDH's in previous roles, not to mention David Boreanaz). However, while watching, I came to sort of an epiphany. Buffy really isn't that bad. Sure it's a little dated, and the vamps look cheesy as hell, but hey, it was what, 1996? TV wasn't operating on the same level that it is now, or even when Firefly was on. Not to mention the fact the show was probably geared towards teenagers, which effected the way in which the content was displayed. But all in all, the show is actually watchable, even enjoyable.

So in conclusion, I am offically renouncing my anti-Buffy ways. We may have a conversion on our hands yet. (Of course, I doubt it will top Firefly anytime soon )

*************************************************

This is my story...

EMBERS

Tuesday, June 27, 2006 2:03 AM

When I started watching Doctor Who #9 this year on Sci-fi I told a friend that I loved the stories and the cheesy special effects, and it occured to me that that was always the appeal of Buffy too....

Great stories, with really interesting metaphor, real character development, a hero's journey, and all the humor and excitement anyone could ever want.
Is it so hard to relax and enjoy the silly fun of vampires and demons who flesh out those metaphors and motivate the character growth?

I agree that Firefly is a far greater show, but Joss created some really brilliant moments on Buffy (and Angel) which are going to be remembered and valued for generations IMO).

DEEPGIRL187

Tuesday, June 27, 2006 2:14 AM

There were two other things I noticed while watching. I don't know if any of you remember this, but there was a show called Kindred: The Embraced that was on the year before Buffy started (I think). It's interesting because even though Kindred was on the year before, the show was more graphic than Buffy (or at least Buffy's first few episodes). But once again, I think Buffy was aimed at a younger audience.

One other thing I noticed was David Boreanaz. Even though I knew that he played Angel before, I still see him as Seeley Booth from Bones, which was the first show I saw him in. But based on the interviews I've seen, I really think that the character of Booth is closer to his personality than Angel was. But then again, maybe my opinion will change after I see more of both series.

*************************************************

This is my story...

CHRISTHECYNIC

Tuesday, June 27, 2006 2:19 AM

I never liked Buffy much and I didn't know why until I saw Buffy on an episode of Angel and then it hit me. (I've said this before, sorry for those who have heard it many times.)

Buffy kills things, that's what she does, she's the slayer and she kills things. Evil is drawn both to her and to her town for obvious reasons, and when it shows up she ends it.

Angels saves both lives and souls. To do this he has to go out and look, often times with help from on high, but the question isn't one of effort, it' about purpose. Angel makes the world a better place by protecting the innocent (most of the time at any rate) Buffy does it by killing the guilty.

Angel represents protection and redemption, Buffy represents vengance and destruction.

I always felt that protecting the good was more important than punishing the bad, so I've liked Angel more since I fist saw the show.

-

So my dislike of Buffy, which is minor at most, is based on the way Buffy approaches the problem of evil, not the quality of the show.

Glad that you've found something you like there.

ECGORDON

Tuesday, June 27, 2006 2:39 AM

I never thought much about Buffy before I became a Firefly fan. The few times I caught it or Angel while channel surfing it was mid-episode, so I didn't know anything about what was going on or the character development during the course of either series. It did appear to be cheesy and beneath my level.

Boy, was I wrong. Later rented them all from Netflix, and I now own all but the last seasons of both. It is just a matter of time til I get those, in fact that's what I have in mind to get with my next amazon gift certificate.

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, June 27, 2006 3:30 AM

I too have come, albiet way late, to the Buffy party.

But the bastards @ Blockbuster screwed up, and I'm getting the DVDs out of order in the mail. I am SO pissed. I need to send a movie back now w/ out seeing it yet ( Crash ) just to get the 3rd disc for Season 1.

I'm SO fucking pissed! That's 2 weeks now I'm having to wait because of their screw up.

Grrrrr!

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

SAMEERTIA

Tuesday, June 27, 2006 3:36 AM

Buffy took longer for me to warm to, and honestly, back when I dissed Buffy, I hadn't really watched Buffy.

It wasn't until it was running in the "after-work" spot that I started using it for my evening workout distraction. (pacing is PERFECT for weight lifting) and then I was hooked.

I'm not a perfect fan. I don't own the dvds and as such have never seen the musical or "Hush". But I believe that Buffy was a tremendous series and that those who diss Buffy are those who've never actually WATCHED Buffy.
:)

Welcome to the darkside! We'll be playing Kitten Poker later...

GROOSALUGG

Wednesday, June 28, 2006 2:48 AM

If you're enjoying Buffy so far, but don't yet love it, I'd urge you to stick with it at least thru the end of S2. The first year, besides being just 12 eps long, is sort of a "getting their feet under them" kind of season--for both the cast and the writers. The second season is when it really takes off.

KWICKO

Wednesday, June 28, 2006 3:14 AM

Quote:
Buffy took longer for me to warm to, and honestly, back when I dissed Buffy, I hadn't really watched Buffy.

Ditto. I used to think it was just a stupid spinoff made out of a stupid movie, for a network that was desperate to have *something* to put on the air. That was, of course, before I'd ever seen a single episode of it. And I held to that belief until last summer, when I "discovered" Buffy, and to my shock, realized that this wasn't just 90210 with fangs - this was some of the best writing I'd ever seen on TV!

As for Firefly being way better than Buffy... well, yes and no. I agree that Firefly was Joss at his best (so far, anyway); the writing, dialog, pacing, action, and humor are just SOOOOO right on the money. Everything just clicks, in ways that Buffy and Angel just hinted at, or got close to, but never *quite* to the perfection that Firefly achieved. But if I had to choose one complete series set to own on DVD, it'd likely be Buffy over Firefly. Why? Quantity, pure and simple. Firefly was fantastic, but there just isn't near enough of it. Buffy, while not quite as good, is still amazingly good TV - and there's seven seasons worth of watchy goodness to love! Even if you don't like some seasons or particular episodes, there's still an awful lot of great in that big box o' DVDs. :)

Fortunately, this isn't a world where I have to make that choice. I get to have all the Buffy DVDs, all the Angel DVDs, AND all the Firefly and Serenity as icing on the cake.

Mike

A baby seal walks into a club...

RIVER6213

Thursday, June 29, 2006 7:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Have sympathy on this poor hypocrite. She knows not what she does.

For years I have spouted my negative views on all that is Buffy. And while, to a certain extent, I still retain those views, I'm attempting to be more open-minded.

I say all of this because I just finished watching the first two episodes of Buffy. My original reasons for doing this were mostly Firefly realted (I wanted to see some of our BDH's in previous roles, not to mention David Boreanaz). However, while watching, I came to sort of an epiphany. Buffy really isn't that bad. Sure it's a little dated, and the vamps look cheesy as hell, but hey, it was what, 1996? TV wasn't operating on the same level that it is now, or even when Firefly was on. Not to mention the fact the show was probably geared towards teenagers, which effected the way in which the content was displayed. But all in all, the show is actually watchable, even enjoyable.

So in conclusion, I am offically renouncing my anti-Buffy ways. We may have a conversion on our hands yet. (Of course, I doubt it will top Firefly anytime soon )

I'm with you.

I would never have ever watched BTVS without having listened to the people here. I find though, that BTVS is a very good watch, and it is also very clear that Buffy is more than just a Vampire Slayer.

River

SLAYER730

Thursday, June 29, 2006 7:27 AM

I started with BtVS in the 5th season and played major catch-up, but it was my first Whedon show so I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for Buffy. It's certainly not Firefly by any stretch of the imagination, but the heart is there and once in a while you catch an inkling of what's to come. I'd definitely recommend getting through the season 1 as quickly as possible...there IS a light at the end of the tunnel. They do get better. :)

SLAYER730

Thursday, June 29, 2006 7:37 AM

And Season 5 is the best

***Never judge a book by its movie***

RIVER6213

Thursday, June 29, 2006 7:49 AM

The seasons start off as rather kiddy-like but they are good episodes. Later they take on a more serious note. From there it takes on a full blown soap opera that drags your souls Straight into it.

I never thought I would be saying this.

River

CHRISISALL

Thursday, June 29, 2006 8:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
That's 2 weeks now I'm having to wait because of their screw up.

I feel for you (not just a Simon line

), although I seem to remember suggesting that you and all others with even a mild liking of the first season to just go ahead and purchase the Chosen Collection....any way you do it though, good vamp hunting to ya!

Would have saved me a lot of time and $ Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Thursday, June 29, 2006 8:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
The seasons start off as rather kiddy-like but they are good episodes. Later they take on a more serious note. From there it takes on a full blown soap opera that drags your souls Straight into it.

Me too.
(Now is it Dark Angel time, yet?)

Persistant to excess Chrisisall

DEEPGIRL187

Friday, June 30, 2006 1:24 PM

After watching four episodes, I've decided the easiest course of action would be to just buy the entire series, along with Angel once I get to it. Now if I can only save up the cash...

**************************************************

"What you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar."

CHRISISALL

Friday, June 30, 2006 1:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
After watching four episodes, I've decided the easiest course of action would be to just buy the entire series, along with Angel once I get to it. Now if I can only save up the cash...

Jolly good decision on Buffy, but I advise caution with Angel- some like it better than Buffy, some not nearly as much (me), and I think it depends on how you percieve David Boreanaz. I totally like him as a supporting actor, but I don't see him holding up an entire series by himself (as Angel, at any rate), however, your milage may vary. Season one is a must-see, though.

I sold comics and DVD's I wasn't watching very often to finance my Joss addiction; it was faster than saving up...

And don't forget Titan AE! Chrisisall

FOLLOWMAL

Friday, June 30, 2006 1:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I sold comics and DVD's I wasn't watching very often to finance my Joss addiction; it was faster than saving up...

Eeeep, why have I not thought of this sooner!?

And I've been netflixing Buffy...

NO MORE!

* digs thru office shelf for all old comics and checks DVD shelf for stuff that no longer suits.*

I like going to the Book Barn! I'm SURE they know folks who will want these.

"You hold. Hold 'til I get back." Mal

CHRISISALL

Friday, June 30, 2006 2:11 PM

At Turn It Up, the local used CD and DVD store, I can get between $4 and $8, depending on the title, more for box sets. If you have like 30 DVD's you can sell, that just about the Chosen Collection right there. Comics are a bit dodgey, they have to be classic, in demand, and in great condition, otherwise it's like, you'll get a quarter a comic or $25 a box or whatnot.

Or u can take out a loan Chrisisall

FOLLOWMAL

Friday, June 30, 2006 2:21 PM

Ok, the digging didn't turn up enough DVD's or comics for enough cashey money.

I guess I will just have to use the ole trusty credit card.

"You hold. Hold 'til I get back." Mal

CHRISISALL

Friday, June 30, 2006 2:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FollowMal:

I guess I will just have to use the ole trusty credit card.

I know a guy who knows a guy who deals in souls...Chrisisall

DEEPGIRL187

Friday, June 30, 2006 6:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Jolly good decision on Buffy, but I advise caution with Angel- some like it better than Buffy, some not nearly as much (me), and I think it depends on how you percieve David Boreanaz. I totally like him as a supporting actor, but I don't see him holding up an entire series by himself (as Angel, at any rate), however, your milage may vary. Season one is a must-see, though.

I see your point, but after having watched David in Bones, I really believe he could hold a series on his own. So I'm willing to go on a little faith here. Besides, if anything, I can just sit and drool over him.

**************************************************

"What you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar."

CHRISISALL

Friday, June 30, 2006 7:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
So I'm willing to go on a little Faith here.

I think most here would say that...

The Totally Inappropiate Chrisisall

DEEPGIRL187

Sunday, July 16, 2006 1:49 PM

So I've finally arrived at the second season. After sitting spellbound for almost four hours, I can sum up my experience in one word. Two words, actually. Spike RULES.

Out of all the characters in Buffy (besides Willow), he has to be the one that I liked instantly. I don't know if it's his wisecracking attitude or his screw everyone demeanor, but whatever it is, it's genius. Joss always seems to make the coolest badguys.

And one more thing: the line where Spike calls Angel an "Uncle Tom"? Priceless.

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"These words are all I have so I'll write them."

CHRISISALL

Sunday, July 16, 2006 2:28 PM

Deepgirl, I'm glad you share my appreciation of the Spikester. He's like the C-3PO of the Buffy'verse.
(A mean and like deadly C-3PO, I mean...)

Chrisisall The Bloody

22CLAWS

Sunday, July 16, 2006 3:24 PM

OMG. Watching season two for the first time. I envy you.

Savor.
22

RIVER6213

Monday, July 17, 2006 3:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
So I've finally arrived at the second season. After sitting spellbound for almost four hours, I can sum up my experience in one word. Two words, actually. Spike RULES.

Out of all the characters in Buffy (besides Willow), he has to be the one that I liked instantly. I don't know if it's his wisecracking attitude or his screw everyone demeanor, but whatever it is, it's genius. Joss always seems to make the coolest badguys.

I started out disliking Spike, but the more episodes and season that had him in it, I've finally decided that Spike is one of Joss's best characters in the BTVS and Angel world.

River

KAYNA

Monday, July 17, 2006 4:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
So I'm willing to go on a little Faith here.
I think most here would say that...

The Totally Inappropiate Chrisisall

Oooo! Faith! Wait till you get to her. Evil psyco slayer!

I never hated Buffy but I never completely loved it either. I would watch it intermitently. I loves some seaons and not so much others. Joss has some great writing yes but in 7 seasons there will be thing to dislike. I actually love some of the later seasons most. When Willow loses it is pretty frickin awesome. Since you're new to it DeepGirl I'll hit spoilers

Select to view spoiler:

Sweet, gentle, mousey Willow flaying folk alive and attempting to destroy the town? Unexpected and very cool.

I never got into Angel so much. I watched it a couple of times but it never hooked me.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

DEEPGIRL187

Monday, July 17, 2006 1:09 PM

One other thing I've liked so far is the change in Cordelia's character. Not that she's perfect or anything, but Joss is actually turning her into a halfway decent person. She kind of reminds me of Jayne (I know this sounds crazy, just let me finish) in that she isn't just a one-dimensional character. You can see that there is a lot more to her than what she lets people see.

**************************************************

"These words are all I have so I'll write them."

PIZ

Monday, July 17, 2006 1:22 PM

I watched quite a bit of Angel when it was on TNT (might still be for all I know at this point), and my son has been getting me to watch Buffy on DVD (I've seen seasons 1, 2, and most of 3 so far). Gotta say, I just don't connect with either show. With Firefly, I immediately bonded with nearly everything about it, especially the characters (and especially Mal, who has a lot of parallels to my own life). Nothing so far from either Buffy or Angel. Really pretty girls, but that's about the only attraction.

--
"That's what government's for: get in a man's way." - Mal

RIVER6213

Monday, July 17, 2006 1:26 PM

BTVS the sort of show were you have to watch about 5 seasons. The show grows on you after you learn about all the characters and their developments.

River

GROOSALUGG

Monday, July 17, 2006 3:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kayna:
Since you're new to it DeepGirl I'll hit spoilers

Umm, try re-reading your post and count up how many spoilers you gave away that aren't tagged...

DEEPGIRL187

Monday, July 17, 2006 3:57 PM

She didn't give away any spoilers. I would think it's common knowledge that Faith joins the show in season three. It's not going to affect my appreciation of the show to find out when a character is going to join.

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"These words are all I have so I'll write them."

AMYEL

Monday, July 17, 2006 6:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
One other thing I've liked so far is the change in Cordelia's character. Not that she's perfect or anything, but Joss is actually turning her into a halfway decent person. She kind of reminds me of Jayne (I know this sounds crazy, just let me finish) in that she isn't just a one-dimensional character. You can see that there is a lot more to her than what she lets people see.

That's not crazy at all. Joss has even said that Jayne is the Cordelia of Firefly. Mostly referring to the lack of a filter between the brain and mouth, but they definitely have a lot more in common like you say.

DEEPGIRL187

Thursday, July 20, 2006 9:25 PM

And so my journey continues...

I keep seeing more parallels between Buffy and Firefly (which I suppose only makes sense).

Giles is kind of like the Book of Buffy. He seems infallible, but during the course of the show, you find that he has flaws like anyone else (which I suppose we would have found out about Book). Of course, Giles is way less scary than Book seemed.

Creepifying and perverted though it may seem, Spike and Drusilla are a lot like Simon and River. Spike had the perfect chance to finally kill Buffy (Lie To Me), but he sacrificed it to save Drusilla. Spike would do anything to protect Drusilla, much like Simon would for River. Once again, Joss prevails in showing characters with depth.

Buffy continues to impress. My mother actually likes this better than Firefly (she's watched every episode with me so far). Can't say I agree with her , but I'm really enjoying the series so far.

*************************************************

"These words are all I have so I'll write them."

GHOSTTOWN

Thursday, July 20, 2006 9:38 PM

I watched all of season 1, intitialy I had a really time getting into it. The main two reasons I kept hooked where A)the family like cahracter dynamics of Buffy and friends and B)how quirky in a cute way Willow is. The bad guy aspect to me was kinda lame, but I hear the bad guys get much more interesting as it goes. Luckily the heroes are interesting enough to make me want to see season 2...

GROOSALUGG

Friday, July 21, 2006 12:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Of course, Giles is way less scary than Book seemed.

Get through S5 and see if you still feel that way.

I think every character in Firefly has a Buffyverse equivalent, but for some of them, you have to look to the cast of Angel (which you haven't gotten to yet, I'm guessing).

SHINYYUKARI

Friday, July 21, 2006 12:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:

Giles is kind of like the Book of Buffy. He seems infallible, but during the course of the show, you find that he has flaws like anyone else (which I suppose we would have found out about Book). Of course, Giles is way less scary than Book seemed.

I never really thought of it that way, but that is true. Sure, Giles is less scary but he has a past he's tried to reform from as well.

"Well next time you be the bait!"~Andy Hurley
"Okay! Everybody not talking about sex, in here. Everybody else, elsewhere."~Wash
Browncoats are the coolest fans I've ever seen.

DEEPGIRL187

Friday, July 21, 2006 3:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:
Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Of course, Giles is way less scary than Book seemed.

Get through S5 and see if you still feel that way.

Do you have to scare me like that?

*************************************************

"These words are all I have so I'll write them."

CHRISISALL

Friday, July 21, 2006 6:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:
Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Of course, Giles is way less scary than Book seemed.

Get through S5 and see if you still feel that way.

Do you have to scare me like that?

He's kidding; Giles stays very warm and fuzzy throughout.

Petting his Kek demon Chrisisall

DEEPGIRL187

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 12:50 PM

Once again, Joss comes through with the frightening and perverse. I'm referring to, of course, Xander and Cordelia. Could that be a cooler pairing?

On a different note, should I be terrified that Drusilla has her strength back? And why do I get the feeling that she's going to do something to hurt Spike?

**************************************************

"Now they see the sky and they remember what they are."

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 7:19 PM

You can't make me tell...

Chrisisall

DEEPGIRL187

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 8:30 PM

Awww, come on, please?

**************************************************

"Now they see the sky and they remember what they are."

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 8:35 PM

She poses no threat to the Spikester.
But keep watching, Spike's journey is (IMHO) the most interesting aspect of Buffy.

William the Chrisisall

GROOSALUGG

Thursday, July 27, 2006 7:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
And why do I get the feeling that she's going to do something to hurt Spike?

Going to hurt him physically? No, have no worries about that...

DEEPGIRL187

Sunday, July 30, 2006 1:25 PM

*peeks head out from under the covers*

Don't mind me. I'm hiding from the scary evilness that is Drusilla.

Though I haven't finished the series yet (nor watched Angel), I have to say that Drusilla is one of the most frightening characters I've encountered in the Jossverse. That scene in "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" with Xander? I'm sure my squeals of terror could be heard a block away.

And I never thought I'd actually say this, but poor Spike. The minute Angel shows up, Drusilla just forgets about him. Never mind the fact that Angel's the one who drove her crazy.

By the way, is it just me, or is Angel waaay shinier now that he's evil? Not that I don't want him back together with Buffy, but you gotta admit, he is pretty cool. You can really tell David's having fun with the part.

The second season has been really great so far. You can see that everyone feels comfortable with their parts, as well as the storylines. Can't wait for my next disc to arrive.

P.S. - Did they ever explain why Drusilla was so weak at first? I know that she was insane because of Angel, but why was she physically weak? Just curious.

*************************************************

"Now they see the sky and they remember what they are."

STAKETHELURK

Sunday, July 30, 2006 5:43 PM

Quote:
Did they ever explain why Drusilla was so weak at first? I know that she was insane because of Angel, but why was she physically weak?

They explain it in “School Hard,” the first ep with Spike & Dru, and then again in “Lie to Me,” but always in an off-hand way. In “School Hard,” the explanation goes something like this:

DRU: “I miss Prague.”
SPIKE: “You nearly died in Prague. Idiot mob.”

And in “Lie to Me,” Giles identifies Dru in one of his books, but believes she was killed by a mob in Prague. Buffy’s response: “Well, they don’t make mobs like they used to.”

So that’s what left Dru so weak and why Spike brought her to the Hellmouth to recover.

And yes, Angelus is definitely one of the high points of season two--but then there are a lot of high points.

AMYEL

Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:51 PM

There was a comic book called "Tales of the Vampires", which was made up of several vampire-related stories. I would call it semi-canon, since Joss wrote a few of them, and other Buffy staff writers wrote some as well. There was one written by Drew Goddard (writer for Buffy season 7 and Angel season 5) that was about Spike and Dru in Prague. What happened was that a mob ganged up on Spike and Dru, Spike got staked (they missed the heart) and thrown off a bridge. Dru ended up being taken somewhere and put in a torture chair and then she got slammed with a magical pain whammy.

That might not be the "official" story (there's another one about a post-Chosen Dracula and Xander that probably would never actually happen) but it's a pretty accurate guess I would say.

CYBERSNARK

Monday, July 31, 2006 12:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by amyel:
There was a comic book called "Tales of the Vampires", which was made up of several vampire-related stories.
(. . .)
That might not be the "official" story (there's another one about a post-Chosen Dracula and Xander that probably would never actually happen) but it's a pretty accurate guess I would say.

Also remember that most (all?) of the TotV stories were narrated by that mean old vampire the Watchers had chained up, talking to a bunch of snot-nosed proto-Watchers. No way of telling what was accurate, what was hearsay and rumour, and what was made up whole cloth to scare the children.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

GROOSALUGG

Monday, July 31, 2006 3:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
By the way, is it just me, or is Angel waaay shinier now that he's evil? Not that I don't want him back together with Buffy, but you gotta admit, he is pretty cool. You can really tell David's having fun with the part.

Absolutely. I caught on with the show at first in re-runs (late-'02), and at first, I had no interest in watching Angel (the spinoff, not the character), 'cause David just seemed so boring and one-note as handsome-brooding-vampire guy. Then I saw the S2 eps where he became Angelus, and it was like, 'Yeah, okay, maybe this guy can act, after all.' I started watching Angel the next week...

DEEPGIRL187

Thursday, August 3, 2006 9:52 PM

Another dose of Buffity goodness...

James Marsters has to be one of the most skilled actors I've seen with one-liners. It's gotten to the point where I almost cheer everytime he's on the screen. Then again, he is a babe, so I guess that's to be expected.

And three cheers to Giles for laying a dose of major whoop-ass on Angel. Always nice to see the geeky guys get to throw a punch.

And speaking of Angel, he has to be one of the most sadistic bastards I've seen. And I'm loving every minute of it.

*************************************************

"See, this is a sign of your tragic space dementia. All paranoid and crotchety, it breaks the heart."

DEEPGIRL187

Monday, August 7, 2006 12:53 PM

Spike, Spike, Spike, and more Spike. Need I say more?

This was the first season finale I've watched in a while that didn't leave me fuming. Joss has this wonderful ability to resolve plot hooks while still leaving room for future stories. Then again, if you live in fear of being cancelled, it's a necessary skill.

I'm officially addicted to Buffy. I'm talking a full-blown, need rehab jones here. I watched the last disc in one day, then put it in the mail that same day so I could get the next disc sooner. And I'll probably watch that one in one day, so I can get another one for the weekend. Joss help me.

**************************************************

"See, this is a sign of your tragic space dementia. All paranoid and crotchety, it breaks the heart."

CHRISISALL

Monday, August 7, 2006 3:43 PM

Just be open to radical gear-changes, and you'll love it to the end like I did.

Chrisbot

DEEPGIRL187

Monday, August 7, 2006 3:47 PM

Like the whole Willow-becoming-evil-thing I keep hearing about?

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"See, this is a sign of your tragic space dementia. All paranoid and crotchety, it breaks the heart."

CHRISISALL

Monday, August 7, 2006 5:40 PM

Among others.
Let me save you some time, and maybe money. If you can't buy the Chosen collection, then just buy season 3, rent 4, 5, and 6- then buy 7.

Then you can backtrack and purchase any other seasons (like 2) that you see fit to own.
But for my money, 3 and 7 are the must-owns.

Happy slaying Chrisisall

ALLISA

Monday, August 7, 2006 5:52 PM

My daughters tuned me into Buffy mid 2nd season (we now own the series) and we watched Angel together as well. We all agree that Spike is da bomb and Angel just kinda....eh. (tho I love David on Bones)

But obviously both Buffy and Angel were just warmups for Joss...I find it interesting that the best characters (or what I think were the best) from both series were "supporting" (Druscilla, Spike, Faith, Fred etc) and in Firefly there are no real "supporting" characters (other than guest appearance type stuff) - ensemble is what Joss was meant to do!

CHRISISALL

Monday, August 7, 2006 6:04 PM

Ahhh, Spike and Faith.
The rich Jossy frosting on SMG's yellow cake Buffster.
Then even she changed to Devil's Food for season 6 .

Fruity Oaty Cake Chrisisall

GROOSALUGG

Tuesday, August 8, 2006 3:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Let me save you some time, and maybe money. If you can't buy the Chosen collection, then just buy season 3, rent 4, 5, and 6- then buy 7.

Whereas other people--like me--will tell you that 7 was perhaps the weakest season of all. 'Eye of the beholder' and all that.

My recommendation: if you're on a budget and can't afford to buy every season, rent them all first, decide which ones you like best, and buy those.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, August 8, 2006 1:52 PM

Or you could do that.

Not always right Chrisisall

SWEETSERENDIPITY

Tuesday, August 8, 2006 2:39 PM

I too have become a Spikaholic. River6213 got me started when I read a thread about Once More With Feeling. I've been hooked ever since. I'm not watching in order though, I can't afford to rent or buy right now. I'm also hooked on Angel, yes it's still on TNT.

A gift for you DeepGirl,

Deb

http://serendipityagain.com/

DEEPGIRL187

Tuesday, August 8, 2006 3:17 PM

Thanks, sweetserendipity.

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"See, this is a sign of your tragic space dementia. All paranoid and crotchety, it breaks the heart."

DEEPGIRL187

Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:17 PM

Who needs drugs when you have Joss?

I enthusiastically devoured the latest episodes of Buffy (I'm on the first disc of season 3). It seems that Joss was finally able to start handling more adult themes with this season (at least moreso than he had before).

There was only one beef I had with the new season. When Buffy returned home, almost everyone treated her as if she had stabbed them in the back by leaving. It was like everything she went through didn't matter (granted, no one knew about Angel at first). Maybe leaving wasn't the best thing to do, but I can see why she chose to. She was kicked out of school, thrown out of her house, and she killed her boyfriend. If I were in her position, I'd feel like I had nothing left. But instead of having some empathy for what she went through, everyone (except Oz and Giles) was more concerned about what she did to them. More than a little unfair, if you ask me.

On a lighter note, Faith seems pretty cool. Of course, knowing Joss, I'm probably going to be very wrong about this.

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"See, this is a sign of your tragic space dementia. All paranoid and crotchety, it breaks the heart."

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:21 PM

I totally agree DeepGirl! The scoobie gang should have taken it easy on her - they should trust her enough to know she wouldn't run away for no reason.

I'm really enjoying reliving the Buffy experience thru your posts! So much goodness still to come for you... And Faith just keeps getting better, IMO.

Good lord, SweetSerendipity - where did you get that shirtless Spike picture? Yikes, and add more drooling here!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

SUZFROMOZ

Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
[Angel represents protection and redemption, Buffy represents vengance and destruction.

Interesting observations. I dont disagree...but I find it interesting that in my opinion, Angel is a much 'darker' show, and character, which is in direct contrast to how you have just summed up the characters. Hmmmm

Also - on the original topic, I think you will find the series 'matures' as the characters do. I remember it changed timeslots when

Select to view spoiler:

Buffy first slept with Angel

And the later series are much darker, and more mature storylines. And yet I love some of the 'fun' scenes in the early series. One of my favourite scenes is "Hey, Juice!..." 'macho macho man...' just cos its silly.

SUZFROMOZ

Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:43 PM

its lots of fun hearing your posts as you discover Buffy - that was my first love in the jossverse, and I think I have to agree with the earlier statement, that although I belive firefly is better and I fell in love with the characters, there are 7 shiny seasons of buffy plu 5 of angel - all of which I have on dvd....

I am happy to rewatch things over and over...but 14 episodes doesnt last very long. :(

Hey, on another note, Bones starts here in australia this week, and I had no idea David was in it. I will tune in now I know.

DEEPGIRL187

Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:54 PM

Firefly is still my first love as well, and always will be. My mother, who has been watching Buffy with me, does not share the same sentiments, unfortunately. She just can't see the genius that is Firefly. And yet, I can have extensive discussions with her about Buffy. I don't know why it is that people can't be as attached to Firefly as they are to other shows in the Joss-verse.

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"See, this is a sign of your tragic space dementia. All paranoid and crotchety, it breaks the heart."

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:57 PM

Geez Deb! Between the coffee I just spit all over my desk and the subsequent drooling - I'd say that picture of Spike is gonna cost me a new keyboard - but hey - the boss will understand after she is done cleaning up her own coffee!

Can I have one of those while I await my BDH?

We are The Forsaken - We aim to burn! and we don't need no stinkin levels!

one of the Forsaken TM

SWEETSERENDIPITY

Wednesday, August 9, 2006 3:04 PM

FMF, absolutely! Did you really kill a keyboard?

Mal4Prez, I stole...um,borrowed them all on photobucket. Feel free to copy and paste,y'all!

From season 6,

Deb

http://serendipityagain.com/

CHRISTHECYNIC

Wednesday, August 9, 2006 10:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SuzFromOz:
Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Angel represents protection and redemption, Buffy represents vengance and destruction.

Interesting observations. I dont disagree...but I find it interesting that in my opinion, Angel is a much 'darker' show, and character, which is in direct contrast to how you have just summed up the characters. Hmmmm

I've tried to type this post more than a few times but I haven't been satisfied with it. What I want to say is simple:
I don't think Angel being darker is in contrast to what I said I think it is instead the reason for it.

The problem is that I also want to explain why I think that.

I guess the first thing is that where (in my opinion) Buffy often acts out of vengance Angel acts out of a desire for redemption. Well the lightest character in the world could act out of vengance, you just hurt them, someone they care about, something they care about, or convince them that there is a wrong that must be avenged.

But to want to be redeemed means that the character must have personally done something wrong. It isn't, "Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die," it is instead, "Hello, my name is Count Rugen, I've killed a lot of people and taken joy in it, what can I do to wash away the guilt and pain." You need a dark character if he or she is going to be redeemed.

Then there's a question of protection vs. destruction. Destruction is something we show to kids in large quantities, "Hey look there's the hero killing off the bad guys and saving the day," whether you think we should or should not let kids watch such things you have to admit that we don't consider the topic all that dark.

On the other hand watch a movie about someone being stalked, or tortured, or simply kept in a hole waiting to be killed, and all of a sudden it's dark and disturbing.

It doesn't matter that 500 people died so the hero could save the world in the first movie where the only one in the second movie to die was the bad guy, it doesn't matter if the one being stalked is never even in pain in the second movie. When you're killing the bad guys you're just seeing the bad guys, and they're dying, which is good. When you're protecting someone you're seeing the victim, you're seeing their pain, whether it is physical or mental, and their fear, you're seeing what it is that makes the bad guys worthy of death, and that is far darker than simply killing those same bad guys.

Redemption and protection, which I believe Angel to be about, are inherently dark topics because for them to exist there must be darkness in plain sight.

How many times have you seen something where it says, "Worse than Hitler,"? I've seen it in a lot of movies and I have to say it means nothing, you hear that, see a bad guy, he loses, all are happy. Nothing dark at all. That's not a problem for me because I like lighter movies as well as darker ones, more so most of the time.

But if it is the other way around, if instead of killing the bad guy who is, "Worse than Hitler," you are saving the person in one of his camps all of a sudden that means something, not the words which are still hollow and empty, but now, because you are saving a victim, you see what makes the person worse than Hitler. The movie, book, comic, or whatever has to take you into the concentration camp and show you the horrors that are there because it focuses on the one in pain, not the one causing it.

That different focus, the difference between the one causing the pain and the one in the pain, is what it all comes down to. If you're killing the pain causer you need not see the pain itself, you can see it, but there isn't a need. If you're saving the one doing the suffering you have to see the suffering, you don't have a choice about it, and that makes for a darker tv show.

It also makes for a character more likely to decide, "This isn't working, I'll ditch morality for a while," because he isn't saying, "Today was a good day,

SUZFROMOZ

Thursday, August 10, 2006 7:23 AM

i certaibly dont disagree with you at all. I guess I was thinking of an 'at first glance' kind of observation, you would expect something full of death to be darker, but I entirely can see your point.

Then of course there is season 3 or 4 (?not sure) of Angel - when he definately is about more than just protection, or redemption....

And to my mind, thats even darker, because there is a chance that he has lost himself....

DEEPGIRL187

Thursday, August 10, 2006 6:42 PM

If FMF is FutureMrsFillion, then I'm FurtureMrsMarsters.

Sorry about the constant Spkie-loving, but I just continued to be floored by his performance as Spike. And for those that don't believe me, just watch "Lover's Walk". Just like there's no one else that could play our captain, I don't think anyone could possibly be Spike. In that episode especially, you believe that he is Spike (not to mention a pathetic, drunken mess ).

I think Joss is hell-bent on making all his character's suffer. Buffy, Angel, Willow, Xander, Cordelia, and Oz; they're all meant to have miserable existances. But hell, at least we have fun watching it.

I think one of the main differences between Buffy and Firefly is the way you get attached. With Buffy, you're attached to certain characters (i.e. Spike, Willow). But with Firefly, you're attached to everything, from the characters, the ship, to the places they visit or the things they say. As long as I can see my favorite character in Buffy, I don't care where they are, but with Firefly, it wouldn't be the same if I couldn't see every part of their world.

P.S. - And by the way, "Band Candy". Completely sick and demented. Though I have to say, I kind of liked Giles better when he was acting like a irresponsible teenager.

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"See, this is a sign of your tragic space dementia. All paranoid and crotchety, it breaks the heart."

STAKETHELURK

Friday, August 11, 2006 5:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DeepGirl187:
Sorry about the constant Spkie-loving, but I just continued to be floored by his performance as Spike. And for those that don't believe me, just watch "Lover's Walk". Just like there's no one else that could play our captain, I don't think anyone could possibly be Spike. In that episode especially, you believe that he is Spike (not to mention a pathetic, drunken mess ).

Yeah, James Marsters is really the only guy who can be Spike--and Captain Peroxide only gets better with time. He’s great in “Lover’s Walk,” though; one of my favorite episodes from Season Three--which is saying something, given the strong season.

Quote:
With Buffy, you're attached to certain characters (i.e. Spike, Willow). But with Firefly, you're attached to everything, from the characters, the ship, to the places they visit or the things they say. As long as I can see my favorite character in Buffy, I don't care where they are, but with Firefly, it wouldn't be the same if I couldn't see every part of their world.

Part of the difference between Buffy and Firefly may be because Firefly actually has a world to go see--Buffy is ostensibly set in the modern day; its fantastic element comes from the characters (Slayers, vampires, witches, werewolves, etc) and the demons they fight. Although don’t count Sunnydale out just yet; the Hellmouth may grow on you.

And I personally always enjoyed delving into the mythology of the series, which they do a bit more on Angel than Buffy, but which is strong on both. What I really like is how Joss uses fallible narrators--information about the universe and events in the past is always conveyed to us through characters, and those characters may not be trustworthy or may not have all the information, so our picture of the Buffyverse is constantly expanding and changing.

P.S.: “Band Candy” is indeed great! It was the first ep of a Mutant Enemy show written by Jane Espensen, who also wrote “Shindig” on Firefly (She’s the only writer besides Joss to have done episodes for all three shows). Expect more fun from her this season and throughout the series (as well as on Angel).

EMBERS

Friday, August 11, 2006 5:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:
“Band Candy” is indeed great! It was the first ep of a Mutant Enemy show written by Jane Espensen, who also wrote “Shindig” on Firefly (She’s the only writer besides Joss to have done episodes for all three shows). Expect more fun from her this season and throughout the series (as well as on Angel).

Jane Espenson is really great...and she'll be writing an episode or two for Battlestar Galactica this upcoming season!

It is funny, I thought Ben Edlund had also written for all three...but I guess he only wrote for Firefly & Angel...no Buffy episodes.

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River Dancing on River's Dream images at Cafe Press:
http://www.cafepress.com/embersartwork

GROOSALUGG

Friday, August 11, 2006 7:30 AM

"Band Candy" and "Lovers Walk"... only two of the best episodes ever! As great as Giles and Joyce were in BC, to me, Snyder totally steals the episode.

"You guys seen Ms. Barton? I think she's wasted. I'm gonna have to put that in her performance review, 'cause... 'cause I'm the principal!"

"Whoa, Summers, you drive like a spaz!"

DG, It sounds like you're about to start disc 3 of S3, if you haven't already. A word of caution: if I remember right, it has the season overview on this disc. Don't watch it! It'll give away pretty much the whole rest of the season . For seasons 3, 4, and maybe even 5--along with the first couple of "Angel"--they had this annoying thing of putting the season overview on the third disc. Finally they wised up in the last few seasons and moved this to disc 6, where it belongs.

And since the girls got that nice pic of James to enjoy, here's one for the guys:

DEEPGIRL187

Monday, August 14, 2006 1:33 PM

Jane Espenson is almost as sick as Joss is.

With "Shindig" being one of my favorite episodes (as well as one of the tamer ones), I figured she was kind of the cool breath of sanity that was usually missing from the Joss-verse. But the more I watch Buffy, the more I see how dreadfully wrong I was. At least for the third season, some of the squickiest (yes, it's a word, so there ), most frightening episodes have been hers.

On a different note, many props to David and SMG for "Amends". Very heart-warming and well-acted.

P.S. - And is it just me, or is Vamp Willow downright terrifying?

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"Oooh, synchronizers!"

DEEPGIRL187

Friday, August 18, 2006 1:22 PM

So I was on my way back from child psychology class last night, and I got to thinking. Some of the Buffy-verse characters have serious problems, don't they?

I'm not saying just in general, but actual psychological disorders that could be diagnosed. My mother, who's a therapist, can refute me on this. So what character has what problem?

WARNING: STUFFY PSYCHOLOGICAL TERMS AND POSSIBLE SPOILERS MIGHT ENSUE.

Buffy: Strange though it may sound, Buffy doesn't have as many visible problems as she should. The only thing you could really diagnose her with is mild to moderate depression that comes and goes. Course, I'm only on the third season, so this will probably change (espeically knowing Joss).

Faith: Faith is a textbook-case of anti-social personality disorder. She has no remorse for her actions, only considers people and things as they relate to her, and is destructive to other people, things and herself. Joss really hit the nail on the head with this one.

Angel/Angelus: Angel has moderate to severe depression (I think the brooding gave it away ) depending on the circumstances and time period. He also has some dependent personality traits (regarding his dependence on Buffy to keep him good), and is at times suicidal. Angelus on the other hand, also has anti-social perosonality disorder, much worse than Faith (obviously). And, though my mom and I disagree on this one, I think he's slightly megalomaniacal (the whole taking the world into the demon dimension thing).

Spike: While Spike has some pretty gaping anti-social tendencies, he doesn't actually have a personality disorder. He is, however, co-dependent. He constantly is enabling Drusilla to destructive actions, even at the cost of his own needs. He might also be an alcoholic, though there really isn't enough shown to know for sure.

Drusilla: Drusilla obviously has problems (or, as my mother termed it, is seriously "fked up"). She may have schizo-affective disorder (not completely sure, have to look up the diagnosis), and is definitely delusional.

*I should note here that Faith, Angelus, Spike, and Drusilla are more than a little homicidal*

Xander/Cordelia: I put these two together because they both have the same problem: both are narcissistic. For Xander, his narcissism seems to revolve around the idea that his problems are larger than everyone else's. In Cordelia's case, she likes to make herself appear more important than she really is, usually by belittling others.

Willow/Oz: Willow and Oz get put together as well. Both characters are very passive, but in different ways. Oz's laid-back demeanor actually keeps him from acting when he should (especially regarding Willow's feeling's toward Xander), whereas Willow is more passive-agressive (once again, reagarding Xander).

Sorry about the long, drawn out post, but as you can see, I really like psychoanalizing TV characters. And Joss tends to make it all the more fun.

P.S. - I know I didn't put Giles, but in all honesty, he's remarkably well-adjusted, especially for living in a Hellmouth.

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"Oooh, synchronizers!"

CYBERSNARK

Friday, August 18, 2006 2:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
P.S. - I know I didn't put Giles, but in all honesty, he's remarkably well-adjusted, especially for living in a Hellmouth.

He's British. They invented sanity.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

EMBERS

Friday, August 18, 2006 3:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:

P.S. - I know I didn't put Giles, but in all honesty, he's remarkably well-adjusted, especially for living in a Hellmouth.

have you seen 'Band Candy' yet? there is a lot of repressed stuff about Giles...
until we meet Wesley, of course, who is SERIOUSLY repressed and has a lot of Father issues....
(he doesn't listen to others and takes on authority to do things he doesn't have a right to do because he is always trying to 'prove' himself to the hard cold Father...)

And of course Willow's problems: unwillingness to share her friends with others...
and a slightly addictive personality which gets much much worse....

DEEPGIRL187

Friday, August 18, 2006 4:04 PM

I gave Giles the benefit of the doubt with "Band Candy". Not to say it wasn't seriously disturbing. You may be right about the authority issues, though.

I haven't seen too much of Wesley, so I didn't want to go too much into him (though I think you're right and he's just as wigged out as the rest of them). And I forgot about the friends issue with Willow.

See, this is why I love my fellow Browncoats. Always up for an interesting discussion.

EDIT: Wesley doesn't stay that annoying, does he? Please tell me he gets more likable.

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"Oooh, synchronizers!"

AMYEL

Friday, August 18, 2006 11:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:

Wesley doesn't stay that annoying, does he? Please tell me he gets more likable.

On Buffy, no, he's pretty much that way til the season finale. But he later becomes a cast member on Angel and he...changes...a lot. He becomes one of my favorite characters ever. But it's not because of his happy-go-lucky personality, that's for sure.

If you are interested in psychological disorders, just wait til the spinoff. lol.

STAKETHELURK

Saturday, August 19, 2006 2:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
EDIT: Wesley doesn't stay that annoying, does he? Please tell me he gets more likable.

Ah, the many sides of Wes.

Wesley’s main role in Buffy’s third season is to be so insufferable that everyone around him becomes cooler by comparison (even Giles, who now gets to be the rebel rather than the authority figure). When Wesley returns, they bend him away from that and turn him into more of a loveable buffoon--and the rest, they say, is television history, as his character grows and expands in unanticipated new ways. I can’t make any guarantees, but I suspect that by the last time you see him, you’ll love the guy.

GROOSALUGG

Sunday, August 20, 2006 2:47 AM

The other cool thing about Wesley (that you may or may not know): Alyson Hannigan married him.

DEEPGIRL187

Monday, August 21, 2006 12:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:
The other cool thing about Wesley (that you may or may not know): Alyson Hannigan married him.

She did? Awwww...

The journey continues. As I watched my latest disc (disc five of season three), I started reflecting on the best episodes vs. my favorite episodes. "Doppelgangland" and "Earshot" are probably the best episodes that I've watched so far, but "Lover's Walk" is still my favorite (if it has Spike in it, I'm there with bells on

).

Everything about the series has become more sophisticated, from the acting to the fight scenes. It really makes me wonder though. Firefly was extremely well-done in its first season, something Buffy had to work up to. If Firefly had been given seven seasons, can you guys imagine what an amazing show we would have had?

*sigh*
Must stop now, getting depressed.

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"Oooh, synchronizers!"

CHRISISALL

Monday, August 21, 2006 1:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
"Lover's Walk" is still my favorite (if it has Spike in it, I'm there with bells on ).

If that's the case, you have nowhere to go but up.
Season 3 has been refered to as the 'Sgt. Pepper' season, that is, the most consistantly excellent with no let-downs.
But many individual eps in seasons that follow are better, and Spike drops by more often.
Enjoy.

Nancy boy Chrisisall

EMBERS

Monday, August 21, 2006 1:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:

EDIT: Wesley doesn't stay that annoying, does he? Please tell me he gets more likable.

Wesley's growth and changes are only rivaled by Spike:
Wes goes from annoying prick (I did try to come up with a better word...but sometimes you have to say it)
to well meaning goof
to earnest side kick
to dark mystery man
to all out James Bond (if Jame Bond actually had serious layers)
But all his growth takes place on 'Angel' so I guess it isn't really a discussion for the Buffy forum, is it?
(I do love my Wesley!)

DEEPGIRL187

Monday, August 21, 2006 4:23 PM

I had another thought (a common occurence, I'm noticing ). In a few days, I'll be starting Angel. However, I've heard a lot less about this show than Buffy (almost nothing, in fact). So what are people's opinions? Does the original have more to offer? Does the spinoff exceed the first? Or do both have equal merit? What are your thoughts?

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"Oooh, synchronizers!"

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Monday, August 21, 2006 4:27 PM

It's a bit like Buffy. When it's good it is really, really good, and when it's bad it's dire.

The first season is a little shaky as the show was still finding it's feet, but personally I think it had become very comfortable with itself by the second season. Some of the storylines were darker even than the very darkest Buffy episodes, and it always managed to have a nice, epic feel to it too.

It's well worth a look, especially if you enjoyed Buffy.

More animations available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

CHRISISALL

Monday, August 21, 2006 5:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
So what are people's opinions? Does the original have more to offer? Does the spinoff exceed the first?

Buffy is superior IMHO. Angel is sometimes more intense. It richly depends on whether you like or love David Boreanaz.
Angel's first season is a MUST though. How much farther you should go rests on if the characters click with you in season two.
(Lorne got old with me real fast)

No lounge lizard Chrisisall

GROOSALUGG

Monday, August 21, 2006 5:43 PM

Personally, while I like the characters and actors on Buffy slightly better (VERY slightly), I prefer Angel for it's overall tone and feel--and completely awesome theme song!! IMO, the odd-numbered seasons--1, 3, and 5--are the real winners, while there was some dropoff in each of the two even-numbered years.

STAKETHELURK

Monday, August 21, 2006 10:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Deepgirl187:
I had another thought (a common occurence, I'm noticing ). In a few days, I'll be starting Angel. However, I've heard a lot less about this show than Buffy (almost nothing, in fact). So what are people's opinions? Does the original have more to offer? Does the spinoff exceed the first? Or do both have equal merit? What are your thoughts?

Both shows have their respective merits, but I always found myself more emotionally invested in Angel. I enjoyed the darker tone, the nods to noir, the epic struggles the show eventually gets involved in. What I really liked was that although there was always a defining core that made it Angel, they really reinvented the show every season. Sometimes they made mistakes, but there was always this great sense of motion and change, which counterbalanced the thematic and narrative constants (Angel is immortal, he has the weight of centuries on him, W&H will always be there).

I also like the characters on the show and how different they are from Buffy, less traditional in a way. On BtVS, the ensemble were a scrappy collection of outcasts who band together into a tight surrogate family; rejected by the “normal” world, they move into their own. On Angel, the characters are all outcasts who stay outcasts, even when together. The surrogate family they build is much more dysfunctional, and how could it not be since Angel wants the people around him to be willing to kill him if he turns evil again? It’s just a very different dynamic, and I really find it fascinating. I think both shows equal each other in terms of quality, but since what they deliver appeals to different sentiments people tend to favor one over the other.

As for why you haven’t heard so much about Angel, the show tends to get overlooked for three reasons: 1) although unconventional in its own right, it just doesn’t have the same kind of stereotype-inversion that you can find just in the very title of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and as a result, BtVS gets a great deal of the attention for being such a groundbreaking show. 2) Angel is also a spin-off, and suffers from the stigma that often accompanies spin-off, which are often shallow attempts to milk a franchise for more money by delivering exactly the same thing, only more of it (and thus loosing the originality and creativity of the original). Ats does not, I must emphasize, follow this pattern, it is its own show, not just more of the same, and it consistently strives to be the best television possible (and often succeeds at this). But people hear spin-off and immediately assume low quality. I know I did. 3) BtVS was a breakout hit for the WB, so the network played up the show in every way possible. Angel, however, got neglected and mistreated by the network (boy, that sounds familiar

) in such a manner that it had a hard time developing an audience beyond its loyal core. So fewer people even heard of it, thanks to the network.

So, the show is different from BtVS, while still firmly in the greater Buffyverse. It’s darker (both in tone and in cinematography—Angel doesn’t really like the sun much), it’s often very funny, it explores themes and subjects that BtVS doesn’t, and it broadens the mythology of the universe in new and interesting ways. Fun new characters and villains emerge and develop, and existing characters really grow as well—Angel, though still broody, gains a fun sense of humor and we delve more into his past. He was never my favorite character on the show, but he does a good job of carrying it and serving as its emotional center. As the ensemble develops, the show grows all the richer. There’s prophecies, there’s demons, one or two ancient gods, several vampires, and, perhaps most terrifyingly, plenty of lawyers. So watch and enjoy the other half of the Buffyverse, you’ll find it’s well-worth your time.

DEEPGIRL187

Thursday, August 24, 2006 2:10 AM

Next stop, season four...

I'm not the crying sort of person. But I do have my moments of tearing up, and the end of season 3 was one of them. Particularly "The Prom". Watching as they gave Buffy the award for Class Protector was moving to me. After everything she'd been through, it's nice to know that people actually appreaciate the things she's done for them.

The other part I really enjoyed was the final scenes of "Graduation Day, Part 2". Fighting the mayor was one thing, but I really liked the fact that everyone took up arms. Ususally, the only role that the other students have is being a victim, but to see them defend themselves was great, I think. Buffy showed them that they didn't have to just lie down and take what the big bad's threw at them.

All in all, great season. Now if Netflix would just send me my damned disc already...

P.S. - I really appreaciate you guys responding. It's been great talking to everyone and it's nice to share different perspectives on the show.

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"Oooh, synchronizers!"

GROOSALUGG

Thursday, August 24, 2006 5:13 AM

It's cool reading your opinions--almost like watching the show again for the first time!

If I can give you one quick tip for your next disc (S4, disc one): on the second episode, titled "Living Conditions", DON'T look at the picture on the episode's menu. As fast as you can, go from the disc's main menu right into the episode. Whoever was responsible for putting the menu graphics together picked a spoiler of a screencap that shouldn't be given away 'til the last 5 or so minutes of the ep...

DEEPGIRL187

Monday, August 28, 2006 2:34 PM

Just finished the first disc of season four, and the first disc of Angel (btw, if you want me to post Angel-realted topics elsewhere, just let me know ).

Season four is off to a great start. Spikey goodness, and Harmony as a vampire. *shudder* Unfortunately, I have the same beef with this season as I did with the last. Why is it that everytime Buffy is going through a rather difficult adjustment in her life, all her friends (and family) seem to abandon ship? Did they ever stop to think that college might be a big adjustment for her? I mean, she barely got through high school with her life in tact. Now she's supposed to just jump headfirst into the whole college experience, all while she's still slaying? Horribly unfair, if you ask me.

What I was surprised and pleased to see was how Xander had Buffy's back. Xander's tends to be more than a little self-centered, so it was heartening to see him offer his support. And speaking of our favorite zeppo, I do wonder how things are going to work out for him. Since he's not in college, will it strain his relationship with the group? And let's not forget Anya. *shudders again*

All in all, I'm getting good vibes here. Here's hoping they'll continue.

EDIT: And thanks for the warning, Groosalugg. The folks at Mutant Enemy aren't very spoiler-friendly.

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"Oooh, synchronizers!"

CHRISISALL

Monday, August 28, 2006 7:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:

All in all, I'm getting good vibes here. Here's hoping they'll continue.

The vibes will vary, but it's all worth it.

Look who's talkin' Chrisisall

GROOSALUGG

Tuesday, August 29, 2006 3:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
if you want me to post Angel-realted topics elsewhere, just let me know

Please, start a similar thread in the Angel forum--absolutely!

And as for your take on the first episode, I kinda don't fault the gang for this one the way you can for S3. Giles was just doing the parent-who's-sent-their-kid-to-college thing, trying to push her out of the nest and get her to become more independent. Willow and Oz weren't trying to be non-supportive--they were just so into the new college life, fitting in and loving it, that they didn't notice Buffy wasn't faring as well. But, it all turned out okay by the time the closing credits rolled around...

--edit-- Now that you're watching both shows, if you're looking for a guide on how best to watch them to make the x-overs match up, here ya go: (This may be tough to stick to if you're Netflixing it.)

- Buffy S4 and Angel S1: Watch Episode #1 of Buffy, then #1 of Angel; #2 of Buffy, #2 of Angel, etc., right thru to the end of the season.
- Buffy S5, Angel S2: Same as above.
- Buffy S6, Angel S3: Watch Angel episode #4 ("Carpe Noctem") before Buffy episode #4 ("Flooded"); other than that, it doesn't matter.
- Buffy S7, Angel S4: Watch Buffy episode #17 ("Lies My Parents Told Me") before Angel episode #15 ("Orpheus"), and Angel #15 before Buffy #18 ("Dirty Girls"); watch Angel #22 ("Home") before Buffy #21 ("End of Days").

During that last season of Buffy, you can see it takes some fancy juggling to keep everything lined up. But for the other three seasons, it's pretty easy. And generally speaking, x-overs go from Buffy to Angel, and not the other way around...

DEEPGIRL187

Saturday, September 2, 2006 9:09 PM

Well, it's been awhile since I last updated. I just started school this week, so things have been pretty chaotic.

Since there's so much to cover, this is an abbreviated version of my take on things:

Neanderthal Buffy was cool; poor Willow (and damn Oz's sorry hide); the Initiative is messed up; syphillis + Xander = funny; poor Willow again (and Buffy with Spike is just creepy); Hush was way shiny; and Spike in a Hawaiian shirt is frightening.

There. I think that about covers it.

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"I left my conscience pressed between the pages of the bible in the drawer."

GROOSALUGG

Sunday, September 3, 2006 4:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Neanderthal Buffy was cool

Glad you liked that one! "Beer Bad" gets a bad rap, IMO. For my money, the only time Sarah is funnier is when she's playing... err, I'd better not say it yet

. For those that've seen S5, one word: "Intervention".

The rumors about the story behind the episode are almost as funny as the episode itself. You know those anti-drug commercials you see on TV sometimes? Well, those are federally-mandated and the networks don't get paid to air them, so every one of them is lost commercial revenue.

Well, back before S4 of Buffy, the government let the networks know that they'd reduce the numbers of those spots they were required to air (thereby allowing them to regain some of that lost $$) if they would agree to feature storylines in some of their shows about the dangers of substance abuse. The WB was one of the ones to take 'em up on it, and the producers of Buffy were told to do an episode on the evils of drugs and/or alcohol. Their answer: a hysterical, raised-middle-finger-of-an-episode titled, fittingly: "Beer Bad".

DEEPGIRL187

Tuesday, September 5, 2006 1:20 AM

I'm thinking I see a plot hole, but I'm not sure.

In "I Will Remember You", Angel is excited about being able to finally have food again. But in "Something Blue", Spike is able to eat a cookie, and later on in "Hush", he talks about putting cereal into his blood. Is this a plot hole, or do some vampires choose not to eat food?

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"I left my conscience pressed between the pages of the bible in the drawer."

AMYEL

Tuesday, September 5, 2006 1:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
I'm thinking I see a plot hole, but I'm not sure.

In "I Will Remember You", Angel is excited about being able to finally have food again. But in "Something Blue", Spike is able to eat a cookie, and later on in "Hush", he talks about putting cereal into his blood. Is this a plot hole, or do some vampires choose not to eat food?

Vampires have the ability to eat, but I don't think they get much taste out of it. Angel says later on in a season 2 episode that food doesn't do much for him but sometimes he gets a hankering. If you notice what Spike likes to eat, it's spicy fried crap. The guy isn't going for truffle soufflets; he likes spicy strong-tasting stuff, since it's something that he can taste. Also...Spike is Spike. He's addicted to any and every vice that exists. Sex, booze, cigarettes, Buffalo wings, same dif.

I'm not sure why vampires have whacked taste buds. In the Anne Rice world, the blood lust is so strong that food means nothing to them. They also can't have sex, which is obviously NOT a problem in the Jossverse. Scientifically, predatory animals and other animals that eat flesh tend to have less taste sensors. That makes sense for vampires too.

CYBERSNARK

Tuesday, September 5, 2006 2:07 AM

They also draw no nutrition from it, which might be a factor. Though the chemical effects are apparently still there, since coffee makes Angel jittery.

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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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