Is Firefly the best sci-fi series ever?

POSTED BY: Darkfly
UPDATED: Friday, August 18, 2006 22:38
VIEWED: 16384
PAGE 1 of 1

DARKFLY

Tuesday, August 8, 2006 4:15 PM

Is Firefly the best sci-fi show ever(I mean best show ever).Don't get me wrong I love Star Trek but take all the Star Trek series apart from the orginal, they all follow the same pattern,the first few series start off midly entertaining then the last few series pick up and get interesting.While Stargate SG-1 on the other hand was okay at first,it then it got better,then worse(Richard Dean Anderson was really getting really unfunny by the time he left) and now I thinks its getting better with Ben Browder & Claudia Black.But Firefly was brilliant from the first episode to the last. Well you all now what the 2nd best sci-fi series is...its Battlestar Galactica(new)off course.
And I finish this post while my Serenity soundtrack just finished playing the track Love,and love is the only thing that keep us going.

My poem about FOX

FOX canceled a great show
I'll shoot them with Inara's bow,
FOX should have heavy tax
then I'll give'em a pax,
Universal made a big damn movie
we browncoats think it's groovy,
we all need to tell
that Fox are going to special hell!

---------------------------------------------

Go to http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=19&t=22697 for more info!

Things are about to get interesting...Define interesting...Oh GOD oh GOD we're all going to die.

MAGDALENA

Tuesday, August 8, 2006 4:21 PM

Yes!!

those Fox execs... also and ( coz I've never given anyone the finger before...)

Megda x x

"I love my Captain!"

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Tuesday, August 8, 2006 4:24 PM

*lol* You can't ask that question and then demand that everyone agree with you! This is a fanboard, but it's also a discussion board! Key element of discussion - differing points of view to discuss!

Personally, I love Firefly more than all the other sci-fi shows I've seen, including all the Treks, both the Stargates and Bablylon 5. But there are many reasons why someone might prefer another show. We don't send other sci-fi geeks to the special hell - we're all part of one, shiny, happy family!

More signatures available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

THEVERSE51

Tuesday, August 8, 2006 4:50 PM

I'd say it's the best only because I think it is the most realistic view of what the future may bring. No aliens for one thing. The people who move out to colonize a new solar system won't all be ace pilots and scientists - there will be a lot of people just muddling along trying to make a living.

ZOID

Tuesday, August 8, 2006 8:59 PM

Darkfly asked:

Quote:
Is Firefly the best sci-fi series ever?

I'll go you one better. Firefly is the only science fiction show ever aired on television.

Science fiction purists will understand this...

v/r,
-zed

P.S.
That's why it has to return to television, imo.

TRAVELER

Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:09 AM

Science fiction like everything else has grown up. Firefly shows a lot of talent and what I feel is great writing. Joss did an excellent job with this gem.

Just remember that someone had to get the ball rolling. Joss was not first. There have been many TV shows and movies prior to Firefly. So maybe the best science fiction is the one that was first, because Joss may be wasting time writing docter shows without knowing of this great genera. Shudder the thought. They were not the quality of Firefly, but did kick start this great experience we call science fiction.

So please don't send me to that special place in hell because I am greatful for those who pioneered this artform. We would not have had Firefly without them.

To expeience those raw beginnigs you could seek out one of the Flash Gordon series starring Buster Crabbe. The writing is terrible. The special effects, well I'll let you judge for yourself after you get done laughing. But those wonderful people really tried to put science fiction out there for the masses. And I will always appreciate that effort. My Flash Gordon sits right next to my Firefly where they both belong.

MONKSDAD

Wednesday, August 9, 2006 1:19 AM

yes

"And I think calling him that is an insult to the psychotic lowlife community."

ZOID

Wednesday, August 9, 2006 3:16 PM

traveler wrote, in part:

Quote:
Science fiction like everything else has grown up...

No, science fiction sprang fully formed from the imagination of authors like Verne, Burroughs, Orwell and Herbert.

There have been very good science fiction movies, even some great ones (Blade Runner). But there has been a lot more rancid shellfish than pearls.

As far as TV is concerned, Star Trek was very good futuristic entertainment, but I hesitate to call it 'science fiction' (from a purist's viewpoint), because it is too utopian. No one struggles against their culture, its machines, and no one questions its ethical morality. That's the essence of science fiction.

So, I reemphasize, Firefly is the only science fiction -- and near the idealistic pinnacle of storytelling, regardless of genre or medium -- to ever be aired on television.

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
And would somebody -- Peter Jackson? -- please make a responsible movie retelling of E. R. Burrough's John Carter of Mars series? According to Wikipedia, John Favreau is currently set to direct a three picture project for Paramount (their third choice of director to date), but the thing keeps getting delayed. Even then, I fear a focus on the action-y elements, and a loss of its heart and social criticism.

BTW, A Princess of Mars, the first book in the series, was written in 1911. Pick up a copy, read it yourself, and see if it has aged at all. Then when you're done reading the entire series (cuz you will!), start in on reading Dune and experience its timeless enlightenment. Then, revise your list of science fiction entertainments, and leave out the stuff that's not actually sci-fi, including just about everything on the SciFi Channel (with the exception of the freakin' wrestling, of course

).
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

GIXXER

Wednesday, August 9, 2006 3:39 PM

Rather!

CRUITHNE3753

Wednesday, August 9, 2006 3:43 PM

Firefly isn't Sci-Fi... it's SF. [img]

LOSTDOG

Thursday, August 10, 2006 3:48 PM

Without a doubt.Firefly could possibly be one of the best shows ever.No offense to Stargate and Trek fans, but PLEASE.It makes me sick that those shows can run so long and firefly was shot down so soon.I have been watching since the beginning and I have the box set and serenity movie and I still can't watch enough. Gets me every time.It had to be timing, writing, the great cast and strong acting.Firefly to scifi was what Guns n'Roses was to rock and roll. Nothing can touch it and it will never happen again.FOX, YOU'RE FIRED!!!!

Lost Dog

JOSSISAGOD

Thursday, August 10, 2006 4:01 PM

Don't get me wrong, I've loved most of the Star Trek series', Farscape, Dark Angel, Andromeda, Re-Imagined BSG, Stargate SG-1/Atlantis, But not even half as much as I've loved Buffy, Angel, and Firefly/Serenity. (Joss shows listed in no particular order.)

JOSSIS(Most Definitely)AGOD

Self appointed Forsaken! Been on the list for a while now!
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature.
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STILLSHINY

Thursday, August 10, 2006 4:11 PM

Yes.

although, the new BSG may be giving it a run for the coin.

"We had ties that could not be broken, except by the passing of time. Like a rock. A broken time rock. And you're very special to me, my broken time rock people." - Nathan Fillion

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JOLLY

Thursday, August 10, 2006 4:23 PM

You know how you buy those CDs that turn out to be so good that they get heavy play for months and months and months. And then one day you notice the jewel case and realize that it's been a long time since you last listened and so you pop it in your player and you realize that something has changed since the last time you listened and it now feels a little tired and in some way you've moved on....

That's where I am now with Firefly. I picked up the series recently on DVD, but haven't found any desire to actually watch. Having said that, I watched Serenity twice in the theatre (something I haven't done since Empire Strikes Back as a wee laddie), devoured the series on DVD in four consequtive nights last October, watched every episode at least on more time on Space Channel (Canada's Sci-Fi equivalent), bought the DVD, introduced several friends to the show, etc. The movie was easily the best I've seen in the last year and left a lingering impression like nothing else I've seen recently. But without new material, there's just nothing to substain my passion.

Is it the best SF show ever? Definintely one of the most promising, though much like BSG (or any other show), there were episodes that I thought were quite average (Heart of Gold and the Message are two of maybe three that I would put in this category). My guess is that I loved it as much as I loved shows like ST:TOS, Dr. Who (Tom Baker era), and Blake's 7 at other phases in my life. So, to end a long boring train of though, Firefly was one great show, and hopefully we'll get more at some point in the future.

YINYANG

Thursday, August 10, 2006 4:29 PM

The last time I was obsessed with a show, I was five, and the show was Full House. So, yes, Firefly is the best ever.

---

Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!

CS

Thursday, August 10, 2006 4:39 PM

Would Angel be classed as sci-fi, or is that fantasy? If sci-fi, I personally feel that its better than Firefly. What Firefly lacked was character development, simply because it was too short (I'm not saying that was a problem with the show, just something it didn't get a chance to do). But what I really like about Angel is the way the characters radically but realistically evolved - mainly Cordy and Wes. I think that's something that Buffy lacked too, although the core characters all matured throughout the 7 seasons they were essentially the same people at the end (Willow is arguable with the magic, but taking just the central principles of her character she wasn't too different).

But if we're just talking true sci-fi, then for me there is no competetition with Firefly. And if it had the 5+ seasons it deserved, it could well have been the best show in any genre.

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Thursday, August 10, 2006 4:43 PM

*FMF stands back in HORROR that Jolly is tired of the Firefly*

We are The Forsaken - We aim to burn! and we don't need no stinkin levels!

one of the Forsaken TM

SINGATE

Thursday, August 10, 2006 6:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
*FMF stands back in HORROR that Jolly is tired of the Firefly

I recoil in horror because someone admitted Full House was a show worth obsessing over. I don't care how old you were that show just sucks.

Back on topic. Firefly is probably the most realistic version of the future at least from our present point of view. People are still petty, governments and large corporations are still dishonest, greedy, and manipulative, and the little guy still gets screwed. Our verse is completely different from idealized societies prevelant in other sci-fi futures.

That being said I would still put Farscape up against any sci-fi any day of the week. It may be over the top with the technology and aliens but it was still quite brilliant.

_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

CITIZEN

Thursday, August 10, 2006 7:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
*lol* You can't ask that question and then demand that everyone agree with you! This is a fanboard, but it's also a discussion board! Key element of discussion - differing points of view to discuss!

FireFly is really poor, I mean cowboys in space? Why don't they reverse the tachyon flow through the main deflector dish and reduce the gravitational constant of the universe to destroy the Alliance?

How's that?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

JOLLY

Thursday, August 10, 2006 7:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by singate:
That being said I would still put Farscape up against any sci-fi any day of the week. It may be over the top with the technology and aliens but it was still quite brilliant.

Odd how one ends up watching certain shows. I caught the first episode of Farscape, developed a crush on Claudia Black, and followed the show for the next season and a half. I'm not sure if I ended up losing interest in the show or in Ms. Black...

Firefly and BSG are in my first tier of SF (and television in general). Farscape sits in the second tier with the Treks as a enjoyable diversion, but not something I follow regularly.

IMNOTHERE

Thursday, August 10, 2006 10:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
(Star Trek) is too utopian. No one struggles against their culture, its machines, and no one questions its ethical morality. That's the essence of science fiction.

Well, that describes Trek, and probably Stargate, but there have been a number of other TV shows that did exactly those things - Notably Babylon 5 (still my vote for best, sorry) and Farscape.

The grand-daddy of dystopian SciFi series is Blake's 7 - a BBC series from the late 70s (USAians might want to try Wikipedia).

One problem is that Trek is very slick and consistent - the McDonalds of TV SF. Shows like Babylon 5 and (especially) Blake's 7 were more uneven and you have to take the ridiculous with the sublime. Possibly us Brits who were brought up on Doctor Who are a bit more cheese-tolerant.

ZZETTA13

Thursday, August 10, 2006 10:55 PM

Is Firefly the best sci-fi show ever?

YEPPER

YINYANG

Thursday, August 10, 2006 10:57 PM

Quote:
I recoil in horror because someone admitted Full House was a show worth obsessing over. I don't care how old you were that show just sucks.

I'm sorry! I was five! I didn't mean it!

::starts to cry::

---

Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!

KANEMAN

Thursday, August 10, 2006 11:13 PM

I think it's the best television series not just sci-fi series. I would agree with other posters that BSG is making a run at it. But mostly because of the number of episodes. If Firefly was going on it's third season I'm sure it wouldn't be as close in my opinion. Brisco was great also.

TRAVELER

Friday, August 11, 2006 12:01 AM

Quoted from yinyang:

I'm sorry! I was five! I didn't mean it!

::starts to cry::

---

Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!

Don't apologize yinyang. I was six years old when I saw Flash Gordon with Buster Crabbe and I love that show. Full House made you happy and that is what counts. I'm happy for you. Now you have this excellent show called Firefly to add to your collection. So

to any body who steps on your memories.

Traveler

ZOID

Friday, August 11, 2006 3:31 PM

singate opined:

Quote:
...That being said I would still put Farscape up against any sci-fi any day of the week. It may be over the top with the technology and aliens but it was still quite brilliant.

I, too, liked Farscape, a lot. In fact, my Fridays were pretty much set with Firefly at 7PM and Farscape at 8PM. I thought "Cool! This Firefly thing can whet the palate for my Farscape main course!"

But, to be honest, Farscape is a thinly disguised A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court or Gulliver's Travels (the book, by Jonathan 'Dean' Swift, not the children's cartoons or movies), and it had already 'jumped the shark' with Zhaan's death (portrayed by Virginia Hey, whom I'd had a crush on since "Road Warrior"). ...Certainly by the 'Roadrunner v. Wile E. Coyote Cartoon' episode...

So, by the second episode of Firefly, once beloved Farscape was only an afterthought. The prime rib was on at 7, the sorbet on at 8...

I did enjoy the first part of your reasoning, though, and agreed with virtually all of it. Farscape, though, kinda suffers from a 'Young Elvis vs. Old Elvis' syndrome; but, perhaps Firefly would have dug itself into a hole it couldn't get out of after a couple of seasons, too, hmmm?

Thinking back on it, I'm reminded that BSG and Farscape both prominently feature characters that live in someone else's mind for at least a season or two: Scorpius/John and #6/Gaius. Is somebody cribbing off of somebody else's notes over there at SciFi?

Maybe if Firefly does come back on SciFi, Wash could live in River's head for a season or two...

Very Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
For those who suggested Babylon 5: Well, I guess it's different strokes for different folks. I thought the show was a complete mess. 'More' is not always better. There was an entirely too scattershot methodology to the storytelling for my tastes. There may have been some real science fiction in there, but it got lost in all the 'everything for everyone' white noise, imo.

I prefer things simpler and more direct. Firefly had the right combination of archetypal characters, without mucking up the internal explorations by throwing them into a cast of twenty-some-odd, including 5 or 6 alien races -- which are always a 'cheap trick' way of whitewashing an entire cultural mindset.
(NB: Plus, childishly I admit, 'Flounder' bothered me; as did Mira 'Delenn' Furlan: I kept wondering how she managed to get the gig, tho' I strongly suspected it had something to do with 'Clintoning' the producer.)

As for Blake's 7, I've never seen it. It may be the greatest science fiction to air on television, for all I'd know. Then again, there may be a Russian or Japanese (or Turkish) sci-fi television show that I've never seen that rightly holds claim to 'Best Ever'.

So, I'll just rephrase and say that Firefly is the best television show that I personally have ever seen, and in my opinion the only show to consistently adhere to the precepts of science fiction. Other shows have had their moments, but those were single-episode aberrations, not the basis of the entire show itself, as was the case for Firefly...

P.P.S.
'Clintoning' is a little euphemism I've coined. It is a verb, 'to Clinton': "She Clintoned me", "Nobody is better at Clintoning than she", et cetera. It should be noted that the verb has a different meaning when the subject is male, than it does when the subject is female. When a male subject is Clintoned by a female, no additional acoutrements are necessary (other than proof of legal age), although optional blue pinafore and perhaps safety goggles might add style points; when a male Clintons a female, conversely, a handy cigar store is required...

Y'all are welcome to use it. It works great in public places (i.e., "Clinton me!") and the kiddies have no earthly clue what you're saying...

And no one, under any circumstances, should change this into 'Lewinsky'. That would be totally unacceptable, further victimizing

IMNOTHERE

Friday, August 11, 2006 8:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
I'm reminded that BSG and Farscape both prominently feature characters that live in someone else's mind for at least a season or two: Scorpius/John and #6/Gaius.

Or Kosh/Sheridan in B5... (sorry)

Quote:

For those who suggested Babylon 5: Well, I guess it's different strokes for different folks. I thought the show was a complete mess.

As is your right (and it certainly had flaws) - but you seemed to be dismissing the rest of TV SciFi on the basis of one utopian franchise.

I think that Firefly had the promise to be far and away the best, but never got the chance. How would the long-term character development and plot arcs actually have worked out? "New" BSG is also promsing (I'll decide when I've seen season 2)

Blake's 7 is certainly not the greatest show ever (if you haven't been immunized by watching sufficient Doctor Who then it will cause permanent harm) but it is an early (probably the first, on TV) example of the Farscape/Andromeda/Lexx/Firefly "misfits & criminals on a ship vs. the Establishment" genre. (I wonder if his Wheedon-nes was aware of it?)

Quote:

(of Farscape)
...Certainly by the 'Roadrunner v. Wile E. Coyote Cartoon' episode...

That was the most exquisitely balletic piece of shark-jumping ever. Once you realised that D'Argo was Wile E Coyote how could you ever take it seriously...

JOLLY

Friday, August 11, 2006 10:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ImNotHere:

Blake's 7 is certainly not the greatest show ever (if you haven't been immunized by watching sufficient Doctor Who then it will cause permanent harm) but it is an early (probably the first, on TV) example of the Farscape/Andromeda/Lexx/Firefly "misfits & criminals on a ship vs. the Establishment" genre. (I wonder if his Wheedon-nes was aware of it?)

The main appeal of Blake's 7 for me was the dynamics between the crew (especially Blake and Avon). For those unfamilar with the show, Blake plays a similar role to Mal, while Avon could perhaps be described as a (far) more intelligent version of Jayne (Avon was definitely mercenary). I can't really recall the remaining characters, though I seem to remember they rotated a lot and that (at least) one of them was a thief. The quality of the show certainly wasn't very high...the effects and sets were cheap and my recollection is that most episodes were quite mediocre.

I think one of the reasons that sci-fi has historically been a niche product has been the difficulty of presenting an "attractive" future setting on a limited budget. I think Firefly may have suffered from this during it's initial run...there isn't much in the way of glitter to capture your attention while channel surfing, so without a prior reason for checking it out (liking Joss's early shows, hearing good word of mouth), you might not pay attention for long enough to notice the things that make the show so good.

CHRISISALL

Friday, August 11, 2006 11:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:

Firefly is the only science fiction -- and near the idealistic pinnacle of storytelling, regardless of genre or medium -- to ever be aired on television.

*chuckles* Silly British man...
Dark Angel is the best SF series ever on TV!!!

Okay, I just liked it a whole lot...
Yeah, Firefly is the best. As good as it can get.

Some original Trek eps come close Chrisisall

ZOID

Saturday, August 12, 2006 12:59 AM

ImNotHere wrote:

Quote:
...Or Kosh/Sheridan in B5... (sorry)...

Personally, I blame the entire phenomenon on Spock/Nurse Chapel (ST:TOS, "Return to Tomorrow")...

v/r,
-zed

ZOID

Saturday, August 12, 2006 1:32 AM

chrisisall:

I'm a Texan by birth; bred, born and raised in Houston. I've since become unstuck geographically, and am married to an English girl, found in my wanderings.

So bits may have rubbed off on me...

v/r,
-zed

P.S.
James Cameron's sequel to R. Scott's Alien was nowhere near as scary as its progenitor, precisely because it was no longer science fiction. It was a futuristic action film. Cameron doesn't know from proper sci-fi, although Jessi Alba is a treat in any genre. I just turn the sound down and try to figure out what she's saying by reading her lips... It's mesmerizing.

DINALT

Saturday, August 12, 2006 7:54 AM

Firefly's definitely one of the most promising science fiction series ever, and cut short only thanks to Network stupidity.

It certainly seems to portray a more realistic future, the sort you'd expect on far flung frontier worlds.
I'm kind of reminded of books like C.J. Cherryh's 'Hestia', or the Deathworld Trilogy. Both written about humanitys expansion, and what life may be like on frontier worlds.

Unfortunately, pure Sci-fi like this rarely gets aired on the television. We're usually subjected to big budget effects and the alien of the week.
I loved Star Trek (TOS) as a kid, and still watch it whenever it's aired. But the later spin-offs tended to portray a bland utopian future, where problems were solved and the crew moved on.
Voyager was a prime example of this, stranded in the middle of nowhere and still flying by Starfleet protocols - a wasted opportunity for a show imo. It had so much promise for scripts, but stuck to a linear format.
Farscape and Andromeda are probably my 2 favourite shows of recent years - I must have a weakness for disfunctional crews, lol.

So Firefly's like a breath of fresh air, after watching so much optimistic science fiction. At least it was one crew just trying to stay alive and make a living, no big messages or moral lecturing.
It's difficult to see how it would have evolved though, and difficult to see how it would have ended. The crew weren't actually fighting the Alliance, just staying one step ahead - so it might have been difficult to have concluded the series. Although 'Serenity' the movie sees changing attitudes toward the Alliance, and it would be interesting to see how the crew evolves in the light of this.

And I can see why comparisons are being drawn between it and Blakes 7. Blakes 7 was aired in the late 1970's through to the early 1980's, so the effects were usually laughable (low budget and pre-CG).
But it was one crew being pursued by the 'Federation', rather than the 'Alliance'. And a crew similar to Fireflys, in that each were in it for their own reasons.

But had Firefly been allowed to continue, I have no doubt that it would be the best sci-fi series aired to date. I really hope another Network picks it up at some point, but with the cast going on to different ventures now, that looks less and less likely now.

I think we have the 14 episodes, the movie and a few comic books. And they show what could have been the best series ever aired. Like so many others, I'm left wanting more.

IMNOTHERE

Saturday, August 12, 2006 12:19 PM

Quote:

The main appeal of Blake's 7 for me was the dynamics between the crew (especially Blake and Avon). For those unfamilar with the show, Blake plays a similar role to Mal, while Avon could perhaps be described as a (far) more intelligent version of Jayne

Come on. Avon made Jayne look like a sweet little fluffy bunny.

The fun was that Avon was a seriously nasty person who had the intelligence and ruthlessnes needed to make Blake's idealistic schemes work, and later took over as leader (Blake "disappeared" half way through the series). Even at the end - when his apparent conversion to the cause and loyalty to Blake...

Select to view spoiler:

If you really want to know, go google for it!

...it still could have been because because he sees Blake as his meal ticket.

Not many shows managed to keep the tensions between characters going - they usually all end up becoming best buddies, getting married and naming their babies after one another

. The Unresolved Sexual Tension (and it stayed Unresolved) in B7 was actually between Avon and the ice queen Arch Baddie (with whom he had a lot in common).

CHRISISALL

Saturday, August 12, 2006 1:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:

So bits may have rubbed off on me...

Not a fan of Buffy I take it?

"Silly British man." was what Andrew said to Giles during a D&D game on Buffy's last ep. Interesting to come close (meaning your better half) by accident...

Chrisisall

ELRIC

Saturday, August 12, 2006 1:30 PM

ya firefly is the best sci-fi tv show like joss whedon made it everything he makes is good!!!

FOLLOWMAL

Saturday, August 12, 2006 1:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
*FMF stands back in HORROR that Jolly is tired of the Firefly*

We are The Forsaken - We aim to burn! and we don't need no stinkin levels!

one of the Forsaken TM

FM grabs FMF's arm and hangs on tight as she is just amazed that anyone can be tired of Firefly.

I just can't understand that. *shakes head*

Let's go back to the Forsaken fire FMF...any marshmallows for roasting?

And On Topic... yes it's the best show ever to air on television. And I'm old and I've seen a lot of them.

It will forever captivate me.

"You hold. Hold 'til I get back." Mal

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=19&t=22697

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Saturday, August 12, 2006 4:00 PM

My favorite line was something like "cuppa tea, cuppa tea, coulda had a shag, cuppa tea"

When Spike was making fun of Giles.

We are The Forsaken - We aim to burn! and we don't need no stinkin levels!

one of the Forsaken TM

ZOID

Saturday, August 12, 2006 4:20 PM

Dinalt wrote, in bits and pieces:

Quote:
...(Firefly) certainly seems to portray a more realistic future, the sort you'd expect on far flung frontier worlds.
I'm kind of reminded of books like C.J. Cherryh's 'Hestia', or the Deathworld Trilogy. Both written about humanitys expansion, and what life may be like on frontier worlds...

I've read some of Cherryh's work (a fellow Texan, btw), but she's pretty prolific and I've obviously missed these. Still, as I've said before, true science fiction doesn't change humanity, as with Star Trek for example; it examines humanity in an alien environment so that we can discover what being human entails...

Quote:
...It's difficult to see how it would have evolved though, and difficult to see how it would have ended. The crew weren't actually fighting the Alliance, just staying one step ahead - so it might have been difficult to have concluded the series. Although 'Serenity' the movie sees changing attitudes toward the Alliance, and it would be interesting to see how the crew evolves in the light of this...

Simple. Firefly was going to be a tradgedy, and we all know how those end. For those who do not, please read some Shakespeare. Flawed heroes, caught on the horns of Fate and their own immutable nature. Serenity's crew barely escaped the consequences of Mal's immutable nature in the movie. And Jayne described that nature to a tee in the movie, as did Zoe's observation that heroes get other people killed. And of course, 'Every Man' 's story ends in death; no one really gets a happy ending...

Quote:
(Blake's 7) was one crew being pursued by the 'Federation', rather than the 'Alliance'. And a crew similar to Fireflys, in that each were in it for their own reasons...

I think Serenity's crew being chased by the Alliance was more of a happenstance than something her captain set out to do.

In our day and time in the US, the legal system has become so arcane that the chances are good that we are each of us, everyday, breaking some law or the other. So the best course is something along the lines of Dennis Miller's advice on Life in general, paraphrased:

Quote:
(The Law) is like going to Yellowstone Park and seeing one of those big bears that come up to your car as you drive through. 'Hey, look! It's Yogi and Boo-Boo!' (pause for effect) Just stay in your vehicle, don't feed it, and if you should happen to meet one in your campground, what ever you do, don't make direct eye contact with it, lest it come over, rip your arm off, and beat you to death with it, all in the name of good, clean Kodiak fun.

That's what I think Mal is more set to do: Just follow his own sense of right and wrong, and stay out of the way of The Law. He's hurtin' more than a little over the Independents' loss in the war, but he's not fomenting insurrection (that we know of, at any rate). He doesn't take action against the Alliance until it becomes apparent that they want him and his entire crew dead. By taking River on board his ship, he has basically screwed up and made direct eye contact with Alliance Law.

But -- based on your brief synopsis of Blake's 7 and reading between the lines a bit -- Serenity is not a ship full of outlaws, cutthroats and revolutionaries. They are, as Joss himself has put it, simple folk trying to make their way through Life and around the Law, without unduly provoking It to give them Its undivided attention. The problem with Mal's "manful scheme" of staying on the fringes and out of the Alliance's spotlight glare, as we come to see, is that their society -- The Sino-Anglo Alliance -- is seeking to become a Utopia not unlike that portrayed in the Star Trek franchise, by "weeding out agression" and individualism across its entire spreading domain, creating a homogenous population free of 'trouble makers'; doubtless, with only "the best of intentions", as the researcher tearfully implored, just before she became a Reaver's date/dinner/corsage (and if she was "very, very lucky, in that orde

JOLLY

Saturday, August 12, 2006 5:28 PM

Quote:
But -- based on your brief synopsis of Blake's 7 and reading between the lines a bit -- Serenity is not a ship full of outlaws, cutthroats and revolutionaries. They are, as Joss himself has put it, simple folk trying to make their way through Life, and around the Law without unduly provoking It to give Its undivided attention to them.

I don't see that being "simple folk" and being outlaws is mutually exclusive. The crew have willingly and knowingly joined an enterprise which regularly pulls heists (including armed robbery in the movie) and runs contraband. Simon and River are already outlaws when we first meet them, though for reasons not of their own choosing. During Serenity's travels to the outer worlds, we see many other "regular folk" that apparently make a living through other means. Kaylee is something of an enigma to me; I understand why she stays with the crew, but I'm not completely clear why she would join in the first place (perhaps "knowingly" didn't apply in her case?).

I don't disagree that Whedon's crew is easier to identify with than those of some of the aforementioned shows, though I'm not convinced that every character in Blake's 7 was a psychopath (though I admittedly haven't seen the show in at least twelve years).

One similarity that Blake's 7, Farscape, and Serenity all have is that the protagonists acquire something that the powers that be desperately want, and which makes it inevitable that they will draw the attention of those powers. In the first two shows, the object is a powerful spaceship, while in Serenity it is River.

Select to view spoiler:

And while not by design, Mal does ultimately wield River against the Alliance.

ZOID

Saturday, August 12, 2006 5:51 PM

chrisisall replied:

Quote:
Not a fan of Buffy I take it?...

That's an understatement.

I am only a fan of Firefly. To the extent that Joss Whedon is associated with Firefly, I am a fan of his, too; but not beyond that boundary, as of this date.

As you may have read, I am primarily a fan of true science fiction. It may have been strictly accidental, but Whedon created this thing I love in Firefly, and he did it with rare ingenuity and an admirable talent for storytelling.

And I've never read or seen any science fiction with such realistic dialogue and unforced humor. He is funny, without being perceptibly glib.

But, I have no taste for Buffy or Angel, regardless how well done the characters and/or dialogue. The subject matter couldn't be less tantalizing, for my tastes.

I am happy for everyone, however, who find these other shows to be their 'cuppa'...

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
I prefer coffee to tea, FMF, and am definitely opting for the shag, Good Wife willing and the crick don't rise...

_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

ZOID

Saturday, August 12, 2006 6:53 PM

jolly wrote:

Quote:
I don't see that being "simple folk" and being outlaws is mutually exclusive. The crew have willingly and knowingly joined an enterprise which regularly pulls heists (including armed robbery in the movie) and runs contraband. Simon and River are already outlaws when we first meet them, though for reasons not of their own choosing. During Serenity's travels to the outer worlds, we see many other "regular folk" that apparently make a living through other means. Kaylee is something of an enigma to me; I understand why she stays with the crew, but I'm not completely clear why she would join in the first place (perhaps "knowingly" didn't apply in her case?).

I don't disagree that Whedon's crew is easier to identify with than those of some of the aforementioned shows, though I'm not convinced that every character in Blake's 7 was a psychopath (though I admittedly haven't seen the show in at least twelve years).

One similarity that Blake's 7, Farscape, and Serenity all have is that the protagonists acquire something that the powers that be desperately want, and which makes it inevitable that they will draw the attention of those powers. In the first two shows, the object is a powerful spaceship, while in Serenity it is River...

Good points in general, and I admittedly know absolutely nothing about Blake's 7 (other than my wife's heartfelt, "It was horrible!"); but I think you may be subtly misrepresenting some of the Firefly characters' motivations. So, I'll let them speak for themselves...

Zoe: "At last. (deadpanned) We can retire and give up this life of crime."

Inara: "Right. You're a criminal mastermind. What was the last cargo we snuck past the Alliance to transport?... They were little geisha dolls with big heads that wobbled!"

And then, the Captain himself sums up his 'just doing whatever it takes to get by, not intentionally victimizing others' philosophy, thus:

Quote:
You stuck a thorn in the Alliance's paw. That tickles me a bit. But it also means I got to step twice as fast to avoid them... And that means turning down plenty of jobs. Even honest ones.

Put this crew together with the promise of work...(metal clanking) Which the Alliance makes harder every year. Come a day there won't be room
for naughty men like us to slip about at all.

This job goes south, there well may not be another...

So here is us, on the raggedy edge.

Taking the Alliance payroll job didn't victimize any of the common folk (Robin Hood figure), as Mal takes great care to explain.

As far as River and Simon being on the boat, there's every reason to believe that Mal would have steered clear of them had he known the trouble they were in:
"(To Dobson's unspecific "bound by law") You -- what -- the doctor? Oh! (indignant at Simon) Hey! (hopeful, to Dobson) Is there a reward?"
-and-
"Not to worry. We can hold Lord Fauntleroy in a passenger cell. Won't make a peep til you hand him over to..."

Mal only changes his tune toward obeying the lawman when Dobson says he holds Mal and everyone else on board culpable, to which Mal responds, "(icy calm) Well now. That has an effect on the landscape."

Finally, River and Simon may be wanted by the Powers That Be, but they have broken no laws. No codified laws exist regarding the escape from clandestine medical research facilities engaging in human vivisection. These 'PTBs' are twisting the enforcement arm of The Law to serve their own ends, but some of what is so 'weakening to their regime' is the now-public knowledge that the Government itself is the outlaw, not the Tams.

So, in closing, I'll reiterate that Firefly's characters are identifiable to ourselves. Pick a line of dialogue, any line (in context), and you will see their commonality with the rest of us trying to get by "on the raggedy edge". And if the Law gets bent on occasion, that behavior never compromises Mal's ultimate law, his own sense of right and wrong.
(NB: ...With one exception. Care to name it?)

Respectfully,

zoid

P

GRRRARG

Sunday, August 13, 2006 2:56 AM

Well, now..."best"? I dont think I'd put it best, but frankly, I'm hard pressed to name what is the best scifi show aired.

Now, understand that you should take my opinion with a grain of salt - after all, I'm one of about 10 people who actually liked Enterprise, and if you include Space:Above and Beyond, that narrows the list down to about, well, me.

With that said, yeah, I was initially turned off by the idea of cowboys in space. You have an ex-Confederate soldier out in the Wild West with his band of desperados, etc. etc. Change that to an ex-Indipendent soldier out in the rimworlds with his band of misfits, etc. etc. and youve got Firefly.

But there are a couple of ways where FF really scores well as scifi. For one thing, they pay attention to physics. Remember ep. 1 when the Reaver ship flips over and descends into the atmosphere? Yeah, a spaceship that doesnt move like a plane. And doesnt go WHOOOOSH ZAP! There isnt sound in space. Someone mentioned C.J. Cherryh a few posts back - she writes hard scifi - scifi that pays attention to physics. And when the laws of physics are broken, everyone says 'what the hell? Thats not possible! How did they do that!'

Its not better than Bladerunner, which is the standard I judge media scifi. Science fiction asks 'what if' and then builds the necessary universe around that question. What if we had the ability to create humans in a lab? What kind of a society would have to exist? How would the Replicants feel about this? What structures would exist in society to deal with this new technology (4 year life span, Bladerunners).
FF is science fiction - what if there was a society based around creating an ideal, utopian civilization. How would they go about it? What would be some of the consequences? Who would be harmed by the process? Would people try to resist perfection?

Is FF better than the other leading brands? Many of the oldTrek eps were better for scifi, because they werent being written by staff writers, but by scifi writers. But, clearly the acting is better in FF.
Battlestar Galactica was too 70s. And Buck Rodgers...no. So 70's it was even too 70's in the 70's.
Dr. Who is hard to compete with - production value was minimal - why exactly is the galaxy overrun by badguys who can be defeated by pushing them over? Where the ultimate defense against them is stairs? But the writing was tight, and you loved the characters - who doesnt remember Romana and Leela?
Thank you, who ever first brought up Blake's 7. I think I've see the majority of those shows on PBS way back in the day - very very much like FF, except rather than being on a cargo ship, they were on one of the most powerful battleships in space. Ok, you've got more ships, so we'll run, but you better catch us with all of them at the same time.
Bab 5 after they hired Bruce great stuff, far better than any of the newTrek that was out at the time. Might not be as good as FF, though great great fx.
Farscape - I dont have cable, so I've only caught a few eps - and they've all been brilliant. I think Farscape might be a bit better than FF.
Futurama - everyone leaves out the funny stuff, because no one takes humor seriously - but solid writing, likeable characters, and we got screwed by FOX again. So it had to be good.

"Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes." -Terry Pratchett "Night Watch"

DINALT

Sunday, August 13, 2006 4:25 AM

Great post GrrrArg, and pretty much sums it up perfectly.

The question of the best sci-fi show ever aired will always be a tricky one, as everyone will have their own personal opinions. As I've said before, Firefly had the potential to be one of the best, if not the best.
But that's about all that can be said for the moment - the movie added greatly to the series, but still left a lot of character development to be achieved. (Leastways in my opinion, lol).

I know it's been posted that Firefly was always going to be a tragedy, in many ways like a Shakespearian play.
But I think to achieve that, it needs more to bring it to fruition. Probably oversimplified, but Shakepeares plays generally pick an underlying theme, be it revenge, jealousy etc., and let the central characters explore that theme to its final tragic conclusion.
I don't personally feel that Firefly was allowed to mature long enough for that to happen. They weren't fighting for a cause as such and weren't fighting the Alliance - they were just trying to eke out an existence on the frontiers of space.
They had lines they wouldn't cross, for example returning stolen medicines, but other than that they were essentially wild west outlaws.

Serenity the movie did however show how the series could develop, with Mal taking a stand against the Alliance. And it would be interesting to see how that develops (if Firefly is ever resurrected as a show).
It would also serve to show how Zoes character develops. Will she stay stoically calm, or seek vengeance against the Alliance. (It may not have been the Alliance that killed her husband, but their actions created those that did).
In particular, it would be interesting to see how the broadcast revelation affected Alliance worlds, or whether the Alliance would just use PR tricks and deny the authenticity of the broadcast.

The only problem is, it probably left the Alliance wanting Mals blood. And as Serenity isn't a warship, and there's no organised resistance to the Alliance (that we yet know of), it seems unlikely that Mal & crew could stay out of Alliance hands for very long. And that's just being realistic, as Serenity isn't a Millennium Falcon that can outrun enemy ships, nor a Liberator (Blakes7 ref again) that can outrun or outfight virtually anything flying.

But then, the series could evolve with a dedicated resistance of 'browncoats' still wanting to fight the Alliance. I think the movie has intrinsically changed the characters, and it'll be interesting to see if another movie or series is ever forthcoming, just to see how Mal & Co fare.

DARKFLY

Sunday, August 13, 2006 9:04 AM

I pretty much agree with you totally Dinalt.

Just remember Browncoats FOX are Oh Liou coe shway duh biao-tze huh hoe-tze duh bun ur-tze(you don't want to know what that means but if you do go to Browncoats.com then go to the Chinese translations then to the episode Safe.

-------------------------------------------------------

Go to http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=19&t=22697 for more info!

Things are about to get interesting...Define interesting...Oh GOD oh GOD we're all going to die.

DINALT

Sunday, August 13, 2006 12:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Darkfly:
I pretty much agree with you totally Dinalt.

Just remember Browncoats FOX are Oh Liou coe shway duh biao-tze huh hoe-tze duh bun ur-tze(you don't want to know what that means but if you do go to Browncoats.com then go to the Chinese translations then to the episode Safe.

Yep, that sums Fox up pretty well.

Thanks Darkfly.

COZEN

Sunday, August 13, 2006 1:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
...if the Law gets bent on occasion, that behavior never compromises Mal's ultimate law, his own sense of right and wrong.
(NB: ...With one exception. Care to name it?)

Okay, I'll take a stab at this. It's when Mal allows himself to be seduced by Saffron (Our Mrs. Reynolds, of course). He even concedes he's going to that "special Hell" for succumbing to her... special charms. And I loved him for it. Yep, you read that right, I loved the character's human weakness. A tragic weakness of the space dimension variety.

As for more examples of non-displaced loyalties: bring 'em on! Because I'm still trying to work out Inara's loyalty, which I don't think is as simple as it seems. She ain't just in love with the hunky feller.

Sigh, to reiterate the desires shared by so many Browncoat wannabes: we require another 120 or so episodes to resolve these issues to their inevetably tragic, yet oddly humourous, conclusions.

CITIZEN

Sunday, August 13, 2006 2:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
P.S.
I still don't understand why it's assumed that The Sino-Anglo Alliance consists of Chinese and American co-hegemony; "Anglo" means English, and at least one major capitol is named Londinium, the capitol of England's ancient Roman name...

I believe it's actually flat out said at one point, certainly implied (Two last super powers). Anglo-Sphere was used to describe English speaking Nations, coined by Churchill, so it's not beyond belief Anglo could mean American, especially given Britain was absorbed into America prior to the exodus in the Backstory.

Besides we know all you Yanks realised you made a mistake and want to be British again...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

SPACEANJL

Sunday, August 13, 2006 3:13 PM

OVC states that it is the remaining Superpowers, America and China, who join together to evacuate Earth and colonise the new system. Always wondered if this was a bit Bladerunner, and just left the really poor and religiously awkward to die on a suffocating barren world. (morbid much?)

Zoid - so, you have a theory on why Jayne joined the crew? Be interested in that, see if it's like mine.

Ooh, C J Cherryh fans, too. Anyone like the 'Foreigner' sequence?

GRRRARG

Sunday, August 13, 2006 3:25 PM

Well, being something of an Anglophile, I wouldnt mind so much being a brit, or at least Canadian (better people, better food, and better beer, why move around the world when Eden was so near?) - except after watching one of the Monarchy eps. Or any military campaign from about The Seige of Boston to the beginning of the 20th century. "Say, heres a good idea. See that U shaped valley with the Russian cannons on all sides? Why dontcher ride right down the middle of that? Good show, what? Off you go now, lads!"

Still, from a political sense, it makes more sense that its an American-Chinese alliance. I believe its in the bonus material in the DVD where they say its assumed that only 2 superpowers are left at the point everyone leaves Earth - China and the USA. That doesnt imply GB - that might imply that our allies are part of an American political bloc, and chief among these are the Brits (What? We left the French on the launch pad? Um. Oops. We...didnt...mean to. Honest.).

Now, someone brought up the point that one of the cities is named Lundinium, the Roman name for Lugh Dun, modern day London, as a proof that Anglo refers to England, not the US. Here I can speak with some amount of professional knowledge, since I'm a geographer - its a good point, since often names are given based on where the the settlers were from - Plymouth, Boston, Worcester, Glouster - all brit placenames in Massachusetts. But sometimes geographers, not settlers, name stuff - and we're an over-educated lot. So naming cities after ancient Roman cities might appeal to me and mine - I already know the first two names I'd give Martian colony sites: Bradburyville and Columbia City. But surely some Martian city would be named Vern - a brit, but the name wasnt placed there because it was british.

"Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes." -Terry Pratchett "Night Watch"

GRRRARG

Sunday, August 13, 2006 3:27 PM

Er...I mean, "wouldnt be placed there." Yes. This is what I meant to type.

Damned temporal paradoxes....

"Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes." -Terry Pratchett "Night Watch"

SPACEANJL

Sunday, August 13, 2006 3:40 PM

Nah - Martian Colony would have to be named 'Cartertown' or something.

("Barsoom." "I'm sorry, did you belch?")

CITIZEN

Sunday, August 13, 2006 4:08 PM

Quote:
Or any military campaign from about The Seige of Boston to the beginning of the 20th century. "Say, heres a good idea. See that U shaped valley with the Russian cannons on all sides? Why dontcher ride right down the middle of that? Good show, what? Off you go now, lads!"

I don't think anyones got the market cornered on that, just think of the First World War:
British: "Okay chaps up and at 'em, remember walk in single file very slowly toward their machine guns. More sporting that way what! Tally Ho!"

Canadians: "What's this moaning all aboot? Up over the Trench, single file, not to fast now, don't want them missing!"

Australians: "Come on Mates! Let's go get the Fritz, and remember double hard out back blokes like you can take it, walk toward them Germs, have a tinny on the way if ya like!"

Americans: "Well walking slowly toward the machine guns hasn't helped the allies much, but it's sure to work for us! Remember, slowly men!"

French: "Nous sommes de grands woopsies français et nous ne combattons plus de bluergh !"

Germans: "Für den Ruhm des Kaiser müssen wir gehen sehr langsam in Richtung zu den Gewehren! Es ist eine Strategie, also geisteskrank sehen die englischen Schweinhunde sie nie zu kommen!"

Quote:
cities is named Lundinium

It's actually one of the planets that is named Londinium, Londinium and Sihnon are the Alliance core worlds.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

KINGOFALLLONDINUM

Sunday, August 13, 2006 5:01 PM

For me it is the best. And it is not that difficult of a choice. This despite the short run of the show. It could be argued that Firefly should not be counted against other long running sci fi shows, but I've never responded to a sci fi show in the same way as I have to Firefly.

I like Star Trek TNG, don't get me wrong. It is an enjoyable show to me. But I never connected to the characters of that show like I did to the ones on Firefly. And connecting to the characters is what ultimately distinguishes a show for me.

Star Trek TNG characters are just not as complex to me. And they rarely and I mean rarely, surprise me. A really great character can surprise you.

Also, it would get annoying to me how almost every problem on TNG would be solved with tecknobabble. Basically there was some crazy scientific explanation for saving the Enterprise every week. Many times I would think: "if you could do that all along, why didn't you just do that right at the start of the show and save a lot of grief."

One more thing to add: I've recently begun watching the DVD's of Babylon 5. I never watched it when it originally aired but have had many people over the years tell me it is good.

So I started rentin the DVD's. I've watched the first two seasons now. And I'm enjoying it enough to keep watching - it gives me something to do. But I'm not sure if I will continue on to the rest of the seasons.

My point in bringing up Babylon 5 is this: it pains me that a show like Babylon 5 gets 5 full seasons while Firefly only gets 11 aired episodes. Why the heck is that? Firefly is a thousand times better than Babylon 5. Heck, maybe more than a thousand times better. And it can't even last a full season?

Depressing...

CANTTAKESKY

Sunday, August 13, 2006 5:07 PM

ROFL, Citizen. That was good.

Well, my two cents to this thread is:

Firefly is the best TV show ever in the world since the beginning of all time and forever and ever amen. Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong and will burn with all Islamofascists and their virgins.

-------
"Maybe she's a lazy hooker. They can't all have hearts of gold and good work ethics." -- Jaye in Wonderfalls

ARCADIA

Sunday, August 13, 2006 5:13 PM

Firefly is the nearest and dearest to my heart. Does that make it the best?

hmm...

I don't gorram care -- its the best to me!

[center]
Arcadia
aka Greyfable and/or Katie

like the avatar? there are more. grab one here: http://snipurl.com/syt0. Happy Summer of Serenity!
www.stillflying.net -- picking up Firefly were Joss left off. We will hold 'til he gets back.
[/center]

GRRRARG

Sunday, August 13, 2006 10:24 PM

Well, if we're talking walking into the teeth of death when its a proven Bad Idea, lets not forget Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg.
"Well, y'all remember what happened at Mechanicsburg we we dug in an' them Yankees justa kept comming and we kept a killin' em?
An' y'all remember when we was at Malvern Hill an' them Yankee's had got all dug in themselves and we was the ones gittin killed?
Well, now, heres mah plan. Jimmy Longstreet here is gonna tell that feller Pickett and his boys to march across a mile of open ground right inta the Union center, where they got the high ground an' the same feller who dug the yankee guns in at Malvern Hill has cannon dug in here. Giterdun."

"Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes." -Terry Pratchett "Night Watch"

GRRRARG

Sunday, August 13, 2006 10:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong and will burn with all Islamofascists and their virgins.

Well, damnit. I dowanna burn with virgins. I want to go to the Special Hell - the one with the scarlet women.
Oh BOY do I wanna go to the Special Hell....

....

....

I'll be in my bunk....

"Don't put your trust in revolutions. They always come around again. That's why they're called revolutions. People die, and nothing changes." -Terry Pratchett "Night Watch"

CAROLJUDE

Sunday, August 13, 2006 10:32 PM

In the realm of 'best' lists, I put Star Trek aside as I do The Beatles - both are exempt from ranking, they exist supremely and are not to be judged/cannot be judged.

That said, in response to the thread title: YES. QUITE DEFINTELY.
(And without the help of people who look like fish or have odd noses or foreheads, to boot!)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Walk tall, or don't walk at all...

ZOID

Monday, August 14, 2006 2:53 AM

cozen replied:

Quote:
Okay, I'll take a stab at this. It's when Mal allows himself to be seduced by Saffron (Our Mrs. Reynolds, of course). He even concedes he's going to that "special Hell" for succumbing to her... special charms. And I loved him for it. Yep, you read that right, I loved the character's human weakness. A tragic weakness of the space dimension variety.

Hmmm... Maybe I didn't make this easy enough. I idon't think Mal took advantage of YoSaffBridge. So, contrary to Book's warning, I don't think he'll qualify for damnation for succumbing to her wiles. She was, after all, not only naked, but articulate as well, and Book "would've kissed her too". (NB: As I would've, and with a lot less provocation than it took to get Mal on the hook. Not all noble-like neither.)

So, I suppose, everyone should keep guessing. I could give a hint, but it'd make the answer so obvious that it would take the fun out of it. Maybe tomorrow...

Why is Inara loyal to Mal? She tells you so herself in the pilot. Asked by Inara why he is fascinated by Mal, Book replies that he is "something of a mystery". He then asks her why she is fascinated by Mal, and she replies, "Because so few men are."

It almost seems like a throwaway line, but think about it.

My basic assumption is that the crew of Serenity are a family, not just a group of people who've cast their lot together to make a living. Mal is their father figure. The next step is to examine the way the crew interacts with him and see if this fits the profile...

Inara is -- I won't say 'high-priced call girl', because she's much more than that -- the embodiment of the Ideal, of all that is desirable in the Feminine. She is an Object, and the ultimate 'trophy' to all the men she meets. They are made transparent to her by this singlemindedness on their part. I daresay she can feel their eyes fondling her, and that makes her feel *fill in the blank, they probably all fit*.

Mal is different. "Inara, he doesn't even see you," Mal tells her in "Shindig", and:

Quote:
He treats you like an ornament. Other men look at you and discuss if you're worth the cost. The women talk behind their fans, picturing you with their husbands. And to your face, they're sweet as pie.

Mal does see her. And she knows it. She is nothing special, no porcelain idol on a pedestal. She is simply a girl. ...Like her father would see her. Just as her father would chastise her for her choice of career, for the things she is depriving herself of by that choice, and yet still love her for the person she is, for her beautiful soul...

Ahhh! Hookers, strippers and porn stars and their Electra complexes! 'Tis a tale as old as time!

But can Inara and Mal ever be happy together? That, as the Danish prince said, is the question...

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
"So zoid... Are you saying Book sees Mal as a father figure?! You must be nuts!"

That's exactly what I'm saying. And the proof is staring you right in the face throughout the series, like a gummed up "reg couple"...

P.P.S.
There's only one member of the crew who doesn't see Mal as a beneficent father figure. Hmmm... I wonder who that could be, and what illumination can be gained by passing through this filter?
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

FLAMETREE

Monday, August 14, 2006 9:40 AM

Best sf ever?

Easy! Blake 7 and that didn't cost a million an episode.Who can forget Servalan (walking over corpses in haute coute and high heels), Avon or Villa?

After that B5.

Which makes firefly about number 3.
By the way for those of you who have never seen it blakes 7 was basically about a gang of criminals swanning around the universe and never quite getting ahead of the game.

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Monday, August 14, 2006 9:45 AM

Blake was a truly, truly excellent show. And I thought it had the best series finale ever until I saw the last scene of the last episode of Angel.

Babylon 5 was brilliant too, I got really involved in that story and the characters were amazing. Not only was the story a true epic that unfolded perfectly over the years, but the action sequences were some of the best I've seen on TV.

I'd still rate Firefly higher though. Or more correctly, I know that Firefly would have been better if it had been allowed to continue. I think that's the saddest part about the cancellation for me. It's all the stories we never got to see. All those great episodes that would have blown B5 out of the water.

More animations available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

FLAMETREE

Monday, August 14, 2006 8:42 PM

Blake 7 spoiler

I havn't seen the angel finale so I can't compare
but it true B7's end was the best. The entire family was watching when it was first on. It was excellent and surprising.

When the story starts with the hero being convicted of peadiphilia and ends with a massacre of all the participants by the villianess of the series how can you not love it.

SHINYGAV

Monday, August 14, 2006 9:15 PM

Second-best, after Space: 1999 :-)

That show rocked. Saturday mornings haven't been the same since it finished.

The episode with the killer space foam was particularly scary.

MSG

Monday, August 14, 2006 9:22 PM

Of course it's the best..not only is it a great series with so much complexity that we can endlessly talk and never run out of speculation and interest, but it brought us all together so it's the greatest thing around!!!!

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

DARKFLY

Tuesday, August 15, 2006 7:21 PM

You know I haven't actually seen Blake 7 mostly cause I was in the wrong generation what exactly is Blake 7 about I don't mind spoilers.Babylon 5 wise I remember watching the first episode when I was younger(under 10) but I gave up watching it mostly cause it didn't appeal to me but I was young so can anybody explain what it's about.

Be sure to check ou this thread if you want to actually pilot the spaceship Serenity in a space simulator. http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=23082

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Go to http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=19&t=22697 for more info!

Things are about to get interesting...Define interesting...Oh GOD oh GOD we're all going to die.

FLAMETREE

Tuesday, August 15, 2006 7:42 PM

B7 was about a gang of criminals original led by Blake. They escaped from a prision ship on to the liberator the most advanced ship around at the time.

Blake was leader of rebels (I guess like Mel).
In the beginning the was a focus on the rebellion overcoming the federation. Later Blake was written out. He was not a very popular charater. I think he would appeal to americans more the british. there was always politics.

Anyway after that is was mainly the search for blake plus various criminal enterprises. This characters killed security guards they didn't negiotiate where to shoot them in the leg. All action took place in the famous BBC quarry.

It was written by Terry Nation was mostly character driven and the background tended to shake. But the characters where somehow very real more real I have to say than firefly. They bullied, lied, stole and betrayed each other. It was also funny, witty and sometimes wise, sarcastic and ironic. Also there was the famous thumb print on the opening title scene which has been removed from the DVD's. How could they!

As with all shows not for everyone. Firefly is good. But B7 is the gold standard.

DINALT

Tuesday, August 15, 2006 7:57 PM

Love it or hate it, B7 had a big impact on the sci-fi scene - mainly because it wasn't clear cut.

Try this link to Wikipedia if anyone wants to know more, a lot of information on episodes, characters etc:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blake's_7

But if you can't be bothered with the link, here's what they have to say about B7's influence:

Quote:
Blake's 7's major legacy to future TV space opera was the use of moral ambiguity and dysfunctional main characters to create tension, as well as long-term plot arcs to hold episodes together. Most (though not always all) of these traits were seen in Lexx, Andromeda, Deep Space 9, Babylon 5, Farscape, the new Battlestar Galactica and Firefly rather than the "feel good" tone and unconnected episode structure of early Star Trek or the series' main contemporary, Doctor Who. Blake's 7 was also arguably unique in TV SF in that it had a major influence on written SF, with the revival of written space opera in the '90s coming from the UK at the hands of writers such as Stephen Baxter, Alastair Reynolds, and Iain M. Banks. These authors are all of the generation that watched Blake's 7, and their work features morally ambivalent, often sarcastic and driven characters, whose usually violently-terminated lives are spent in vast and baroque spacecraft.

DARKFLY

Tuesday, August 15, 2006 9:55 PM

Thanks for the link what about Babylon 5.

Go to http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=19&t=22697 for more info!

Things are about to get interesting...Define interesting...Oh GOD oh GOD we're all going to die.

DISCARIOT

Thursday, August 17, 2006 3:07 AM

Well...it's my favorite I still can't believe such an incredible show could get cancelled--even by a complete bunch of idiots

DARKFLY

Friday, August 18, 2006 10:38 PM

Don't suppose anybody could tell me info on Babylon 5 cause I've never seen it except for the 1st episode which was when I was quite young.

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Go to http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=19&t=22697 for more info!

Things are about to get interesting...Define interesting...Oh GOD oh GOD we're all going to die.