Mary Sue - the thread.

POSTED BY: AgentRouka
UPDATED: Monday, April 2, 2007 19:42
VIEWED: 24149
PAGE 1 of 1

AGENTROUKA

Friday, September 22, 2006 7:11 AM

Mary Sue fic. We so rarely talk about it in depth. So let's!

Like it?
Hate it?
Wrote it?

What is your most/least favored Mary Sue scenario? The lost family member or the lost lover? Why?

We all know the general guidelines, but where is the delicate line between an original character and a Mary Sue/male MS for you? Do you "know it when you see it"? Does it depend on the general quality of the fic? Or the treatment of the other characters?

Do you occasionally long for a Mary Sue warning along with the slash/smut/pairing/spoiler warnings that are the usual standard?

Have you ever been the obnoxious person to point out Mary-Sue tendencies to the author of a fic, only to receive vehement denial? Or were you thanked for your kind advice which was actually used, leaving you feeling vaguely startled, flattered and guilty of manipulating someone's creative expression?

What about fic cliches in general? How much can you take? Which ones do you like, which ones do you hate, and which ones puzzle you in their popularity?

Please opine!

EMBERS

Friday, September 22, 2006 7:32 AM

not a huge fan fic reader,
I prefer it funny and short
(Mary Sues are NEVER funny or short)

only good Mary Sue ever written IMO was Dorothy L. Sayer's creating the character Harriet Vane so she could marry her fictional hero: Lord Peter Whimsey
(I almost wrote my own novel, stealing him away from her!)

SPACEANJL

Friday, September 22, 2006 8:45 AM

Have to say, I think most ficcers are MS-ing to some degree. Statistically, the majority are young and female, so there are a large number of Kaylee/River indentifiers. If you can't fit yourself into the skin of existing characters, that's when the fun starts.

But the warning signs for me are the physical descriptions, and the startling ability to do a huge number of things really well. And the reduction of all other characters to cut-outs.

Fic hates - we did this in another thread. Space-spawn, Rayne and definitely any combination of the two.

Of course, I should probably not dare to venture an opinion here, 'cos, well, erm, writer...

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Friday, September 22, 2006 8:49 AM

I'm completely lost. Don't get to read much fic. What's Mary Sue?

More animations available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, September 22, 2006 8:54 AM

Mary-Sues and Marty-Stus described here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue or here: http://www.subreality.com/marysue/explain.htm

Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without. - Gautama Siddharta

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Friday, September 22, 2006 9:02 AM

Thanks a million for that, PR. I've come accross that a LOT in Buffy fanfic. Never knew there was a name for it! Ha!

Like I said, I don't get time to read a lot of fanfic, not nearly as much as I'd like. I'm making my first tentative forays into writing Firefly fanfic though, so I wanted to make sure I avoided anything bad!

More animations available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

XEYRA

Friday, September 22, 2006 12:51 PM

The most startling -- and horrifying -- examples of Mary Sues I've come across in fanfic are in Lord of the Rings. A lot of teenaged girls creating perfect characters so they can go conquer the hearts of Legolas, Aragorn and Boromir and sometimes all three at the same time. They even invent races for their character that would make Tolkien roll in his grave, they're all perfect and beautiful and with multi-colored eyes, and if they're not the long lost sister of Arwen or somesuch, they're some elven princess from a far-away kingdom...

So, yeah, big Mary Sue hate here. They make me cringe and want to knock my head against a wall. I've come across a few Mary Sues in Firefly fanfic back at Fanfic.net, but mostly people are smarter and more reasonable in this 'verse. Probably because not many teenaged girls saw Firefly or Serenity, whereas everyone must have seen LotR at some point and sighed over Legolas's cheekbones and Aragorn's rugged looks...

http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y255/Xeyra/Firefly%20and%20Serenity/B
anners%20and%20Headers/

"People tell you things all the time, without talking. The way they move, the way they aren't talking." - River Tam

DANNIISUPERNOVA

Friday, September 22, 2006 1:33 PM

Well, I'm creating a character (the first time in a long while) for a fic. I'm hesitant about posting it, though I don't think she's an MS because not only does she swear all the time and been raped,she's promiscious and a drug addict. But she is mostly a plot device. Any suggestions?

I love the Castro, because if somebody grabs my ass, I know they're picking my pocket.

MAL4PREZ

Friday, September 22, 2006 1:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
What is your most/least favored Mary Sue scenario? The lost family member or the lost lover? Why?

I'm definitely not a fan of Mary Sues. Where they come from doesn't matter - if they are there, the most I'll do is skim over a fic.

Why don't I like them? The characters Joss created are so complex and flawed and real that I don't like to see them set against some ideal plastic-y character, and I don't like to see them getting all fixed and sorted out by same. The focus changes from these marvelous canon characters to some cardboard cutout's enjoyment of/intreraction with them, and I'm not drawn to that.

Quote:
We all know the general guidelines, but where is the delicate line between an original character and a Mary Sue/male MS for you? Do you "know it when you see it"? Does it depend on the general quality of the fic? Or the treatment of the other characters?

I agree with SpaceAngl - there definitely are hints of MS-ness in any original character, because the people we create contain little pieces of us. But the real problem, for me, is when the MS knows everything and fixes everything.

It's like someone walking into a horror movie and saying don't go down the dark stairway you damn fool!! which we all want to say, but that ruins it all! The characters don't know they're in a ghost story, that's why they walk right into their grisly deaths. Or get in trouble but make a daring heroic escape.

MS's ruin the Jossian story the same way. I like watching Joss's characters struggle with their issues, and I want to see them work it out themselves, instead of some schmoe coming along and ruining the tension Joss set up.

Quote:

Do you occasionally long for a Mary Sue warning along with the slash/smut/pairing/spoiler warnings that are the usual standard?

I don't think this would work, because I don't think most people realize they're writing a Mary/Marty Sue.

Quote:
Have you ever been the obnoxious person to point out Mary-Sue tendencies

If I really don't like a fic, I just leave it. As strongly as I may feel against something, it's only fanfic, and people should write what they want. Fic as a vehicle of fantasy or full-blown Mary Sue-ness is really OK - probably even a healthy thing for the teenaged LoTR lovers. But I'm sure as hell not gonna read it!

Which is why I like these threads - I get to vent things that I wouldn't leave as a comment.

Quote:
What about fic cliches in general? How much can you take?

What are the other cliches? Um, other then the sex, sex and more sex thing. Which also has it's place, but I do get sick of it. How many times can these characters have the Ultimate Orgasm? Sheesh!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Friday, September 22, 2006 1:54 PM

*is distracted by thought of Simon's ultimate orgasm*

Oh... um... what were we talking about?

More animations available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

AGENTROUKA

Friday, September 22, 2006 1:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
Have to say, I think most ficcers are MS-ing to some degree. Statistically, the majority are young and female, so there are a large number of Kaylee/River indentifiers. If you can't fit yourself into the skin of existing characters, that's when the fun starts.

Very good point.

Kaylee-Sue and River-Sue are very common, I think, because the characters already have very very slight Sue-esque traces, in that their flaws have not yet been explored a lot on the show. They're geniuses (each in her way) and pretty. Kaylee is the universally beloved and overprotected sunshine, River is super-tragic, occasionally snarky fighter-psychic girl who carries gruesome secrets. (Hell, it's a miracle Joss managed to pull off her character as three-dimensional in the first place!)

Some writers let themselves be seduced into writing them as Mary-Sues, arund whom the whole crew revolves and for whom normal rules are bent. River dictating to others how they should live their lives because she can "see how they really tick" comes to mind.

And hey, why should being a writer stop you? You have a right to an opinion!

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, September 22, 2006 2:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by danniisupernova:
Well, I'm creating a character (the first time in a long while) for a fic. I'm hesitant about posting it, though I don't think she's an MS because not only does she swear all the time and been raped,she's promiscious and a drug addict. But she is mostly a plot device. Any suggestions?

If you read the Wiki article, it says that many Mary Sues a have tragic past to overcome or have those kinds of huge gaping, but somehow "cool" flaws. So depending on how/why she's written, she might qualify. If she's nothing but a plot device, she's not likely to have much depth, which is irritating even if she's not a Mary Sue. My advice would be to be very, very careful what you do with such a character.

Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without. - Gautama Siddharta

AGENTROUKA

Friday, September 22, 2006 2:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by danniisupernova:
Well, I'm creating a character (the first time in a long while) for a fic. I'm hesitant about posting it, though I don't think she's an MS because not only does she swear all the time and been raped,she's promiscious and a drug addict. But she is mostly a plot device. Any suggestions?

Are you being funny? *G*

MAL4PREZ

Friday, September 22, 2006 2:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
*is distracted by thought of Simon's ultimate orgasm*

Oh... um... what were we talking about?

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

EMMARIGBY

Friday, September 22, 2006 4:24 PM

Oooh, Fanfic talk! My favourite!

I try to be tolerant of Mary Sues. After all the first thing that I do on reading or watching something good is mentally insert myself into the story. But that's purely for my own guilty and self absorbed mental gratification. 'Tis unseemely to do it in public!

___________________
Hissssssssss!

LEIASKY

Friday, September 22, 2006 5:26 PM

>I'm definitely not a fan of Mary Sues. Where they come from doesn't matter - if they are there, the most I'll do is skim over a fic.

Ditto for me.

If an OC doesn't capture my attention right away, I don't usually bother with the fic anymore because they usually turn into a MS - unless its an author I KNOW will do justice to an OC.

Similarly, I don't tend to read fic that has new /old 'love interests' for any of the characters, regardless of gender.

But I tend to stick to cannon relationships anyway. Anything else is usually just too disturbing for me to enjoy.

I'm real picky, so it's likely not many out there will share my opinions.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

LEIASKY

Friday, September 22, 2006 5:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
*is distracted by thought of Simon's ultimate orgasm*

Oh... um... what were we talking about?

*is distracted right along with the hippie*

What was I saying?

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

ELOISA

Friday, September 22, 2006 5:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Kaylee-Sue and River-Sue are very common, I think, because the characters already have very very slight Sue-esque traces, in that their flaws have not yet been explored a lot on the show. They're geniuses (each in her way) and pretty. Kaylee is the universally beloved and overprotected sunshine, River is super-tragic, occasionally snarky fighter-psychic girl who carries gruesome secrets. (Hell, it's a miracle Joss managed to pull off her character as three-dimensional in the first place!)

Don't hate me for saying this but I once had a general feeling when considering the 'verse that if Firefly had had its full stock of seven series, River would have died either at the end of series 6 or halfway through series 7 leaving everyone else to pick up the bits. As Joss created her, her flaws break her in terms of serious self-determined plot-driving (in that her character drove the plot of Serenity but she didn't; it was people's desire to use her that did), but there would be an ever increasing risk even in a professionally written series that her powers would turn her into Superwoman, making the whole thing potentially boring. Killing her would work in the same way that killing Wash broke the invulnerability bubble at the end of Serenity, only even more spectacularly, which is another good reason for it to happen.

*holds hand up* I have a confession to make. My first original writing came from self-inserts and other inserted characters. In my defence, I was eight years old at the time. I trust I've grown out of it. I spend more of my time now working out ways for my characters to be less powerful, which is quite interesting in the case of the omniscient one.

NOSADSEVEN

Friday, September 22, 2006 7:42 PM

In the exchange of ideas between writer and reader, Mary Sue fic weighs heavily for the writer. They get much more out of writing it than any reader can get out of reading it. As a reader, I'm glad that the author has had that outlet, but I'm not going to bother reading it! A typical Mary Sue ends up being the agent of change for everything, and since I really don't have any interest or investment in the character herself, it makes for a very uninteresting story.

As far as warnings... Mary Sue fic usually makes itself apparent pretty early on - often even in the description. I only have to venture as far as I already need to to gage other make-it-or-break-it factors like poor grammar or characterization.

Regarding cliches... I can like all sorts of cliches as long as they are executed well. Fanfic can be a vast source of poorly executed cliches, but so can other, professional, media.

I don't watch the tv show "NCIS", but I tuned in recently for what I'm guessing was a season finale. It had the tired 'beloved leader with painful past in a coma' cliche as the primary plotline, and, as much as I'm ashamed to admit it, I find that cliche appealing. Well, let me tell you, I thought the execution was awful. I could only think to describe it as bad fan fiction, but on TV.

I guess that's why I find Joss's work so appealing. He manages to take cliches and either turn them on their heads, or transcend them. Because, when it comes down to it, I really do like my cliches.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

AGENTROUKA

Saturday, September 23, 2006 7:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Eloisa:
Don't hate me for saying this but I once had a general feeling when considering the 'verse that if Firefly had had its full stock of seven series, River would have died either at the end of series 6 or halfway through series 7 leaving everyone else to pick up the bits.

Season 7? Wow, you think far ahead! *G*

Given that much space, I can agree.

There are a lot of aspects of River that leave room for exploration, inherent flaws and an active examination of those.

"Great power comes with great responsibility." The concept of River using and/or abusing her ccapabilities would have come up.

And they could have carved out more beautifully the contrast between her very harmony-oriented personality and the purposes for which she was trained, giving greater poignancy to her inner struggle that's summed up as "Put a bullet to me." in the movie. That's powerful stuff.

But ultimately... you're right. It doesn't get much more pre-emptive than mind-reader, and that only serves so long before you have to add new problems, which only intensifies the victim role, which takes away depth.

Unless... they made her a villain! *G*

SPACEANJL

Saturday, September 23, 2006 8:04 AM

I think River was a great character for driving a story-line. Quite apart from the fact that we do not know what her ultimate purpose was to be, or even if whatever process was in progress was completed, we now have someone on the verge of adulthood. I like your take on the conflict between the gentle little dancer and the weapon (I have used something similar myself.) And there is the fun part about mind-reading - how much can she read? In what depth? And does she know what she is reading? There are things that she will not have come across - can you visualise or process things you don't have experience of? The weight of a dead world nearly broke her mind, and I think it is possible that until they actually landed on the planet and saw the bodies, she still had a deep fear that she was imagining it all.

Anyhow, that is rather wandering off the original MS discussion. I wrote an OC, because I wanted to put the Wash point of view, the 'let's not kill everybody in the room' voice, and I was unsure of my ability to write Wash. And I wrote an older female OC because I could to some extent think what would I do in a situation - given that I had a background and upbringing consistent with the 'Verse as it stands. That I think is a MS downfall - present-day personality in an already fully-realized and different reality.

In my own defence, I have also written fic from multiple first-person viewpoint, male, female and all ages. Sometimes from the view of aliens, wizards and anthropomorphic personifications, too. I've built up a whole world of my own to write in, which I have had since the age of ten or so. (I still maintain that giving a seven-year-old 'The Hobbit' to read does not affect their development...)

ELOISA

Saturday, September 23, 2006 9:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
I still maintain that giving a seven-year-old 'The Hobbit' to read does not affect their development...

Hey, I was five. The younger the merrier.

STINKINGROSE

Saturday, September 23, 2006 8:32 PM

Not trying, probably writing one anyway. Sigh. Hey, Joss I ain't.
Trying to back my OC off and dig into the canon characters which are much harder for me because if I get it wrong *everyone* will know.
(But I LIKE my character.)
Thanks for the laugh. I tried to picure a Simon orgasm face and got the giggles. Human facial expression at its most uninhibited can be amusing.

REGINAROADIE

Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:04 PM

The whole issue of Mary Sue is something that I inadvertently dealt with in my writing fanfics for this site.

For my first real story of my own, I decided to incorporate my experience as a wedding videographer in telling the story of Simon and Kaylee's wedding. I'm a big S/K shipper, but I always like to approach it from a different angle. I find most of these stories are fluffy "I love you Simon/Kaylee, let's fuck each other's brains out" stories, which after a while get's incredibly boring. So I decided to tell the story of their nuptuals from an outsiders P.O.V., which lead to the creation of Shooter. Now, at the time, I basically wrote Shooter as myself, more or less. And many of the experinces and emotions I felt as a wedding videographer (especially during wedding where I actually knew the people there and grew up with them), I decided to incorporate into the story in order to make it more emotionally true. So at the time, me having Shooter be a friend of a cousin of Kaylee's whom Kaylee would visit during the summer when they were kids didn't seem to be a big deal at the time. But when I actually read up on Mary Sue fanfics and all that, I immediately went "OH GOD, I just commited the biggest sin of any fanfic writer."

But after talking to misskitten, she calmed me down and explained that THE SERENITY GIG was really an anti-Mary Sue story. That the character of Shooter (ie. myself) doesn't fuck Kaylee, but is there to document her first day of unavailability. Which was never really my intention for the character anyways. When I brought him back in YOU CAN'T GO HOME AGAIN, I made him merely the catalyst of the whole story, since he's a guy who can cross between the Core and Rim worlds with ease. I always thought of him as being a witness. That his whole purpose is to be the physical incarnate of the Heisenberg principle. That by watching something, he'd inadvertently change the outcome of it. Also, I imagined him as kind of a daredevil cameraman/director in the vein of Werner Herzog or Orson Welles. Whenever on FIREFLY or SERENITY when you saw the "hand held" shots of the ships in outer space or the Reaver battles or whatever, I always thought that Shooter would be the person filming that.

And when I finish YOU CAN'T GO HOME AGAIN, I have an idea for a stand alone story about one of his adventures, involving an Alliance battle cruiser, Reavers and a rocket jet pack, ala THE ROCKETEER.

**************************************************
"I have no reason to believe you and every reason not to."
"Why's that?"
"You work in television."

STUDIO 60 ON THE SUNSET STRIP

DANNIISUPERNOVA

Monday, September 25, 2006 3:40 AM

Yeah, but the thing is, though she is a plot device, she also has like...actual depth to her. She doesn't really overcome her tragic flaws, she more just uses them as an excuse to fuck with people. She does have the whole dying for a friend thing which is slightly Mary Sue(ish) but only a couple people on board actually like her. So I'm large with the torn.

I love the Castro, because if somebody grabs my ass, I know they're picking my pocket.

ARCADIA

Monday, September 25, 2006 5:18 AM

Ugg... I ran across a Mary-Sun in the BSR today, and I'm reminded why I don't really like them most of the time. "OC is dating Mal and has all this talents and look she was injured and she's pivotal to the overarcing politics of the show..."

OCs are just such a fine line.

And really... there are some Mary Sue stories that I read and go, "well, s/he was a Mary Sue, but the story was great, I really felt for the characters, so its okay..."

But, well, so little of fanfiction is actually well written. I am such a fanfic snob, though, so don't listen to me...

Arcadia (aka Greyfable and/or Katie)
www.stillflying.net -- picking up Firefly were Joss left off. We will hold 'til he gets back.

HERA7

Monday, September 25, 2006 10:25 PM

Here is a Mary-Sue test which allows an author to tell if the character has gone over the line for Sueness.

http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm

And another for more original fiction

http://www.onlyfiction.net/marysue.html

EMMARIGBY

Monday, September 25, 2006 10:49 PM

Ooh, I enjoyed that test. Definately highlighted some of the major wince-worthy traps!

In reference to the previous discussion I wen't through putting River's stats. She came out with a score of 48 which is very high!

I quote:
Fanfiction authors, you might just want to start over. Role-players and original fiction authors, at this point your characters are likely to provoke eye-rolling and exclaimations of "yeah, right!" from your readers. (Well, at least from me.)

I guess the Great God Joss can get away with things the rest of us mere mortals would be truely aweful at!

___________________
Hissssssssss!

ELOISA

Monday, September 25, 2006 11:57 PM

I put a couple of my OCs through the test and they scored fairly highly (38 and 42), prompting worries from Elly. I then ran a few more canon characters in the similar genres in similar story situations through it... and they all scored a lot higher. I think that part of the problem is that SF, fantasy, cyberpunk and urban fantasy fiction protagonists are automatically skewed up due to the demands of the genre. A score of 48 compares very favourably, BTW, with Mercedes Lackey's Vanyel Ashkevron (66). All is relative, though. I would reckon that China Mieville's Bellis Coldwine would have a much lower score, and I count Mieville as the best writer working in Britain today.

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, September 26, 2006 12:49 AM

I put through one of my original characters that I was a bit worried about, and got a 26.

22-28
Some definite Sue-like tendancies here. Some polishing is most likely in order to put original fiction and RPG characters back into the balance, especially if Kirking is involved. Fanfiction characters should definitely have some work done.

All right - anyone who's read Easy Tickets and thought Jase was marty sue-ish, drop me a PM! And don't be shy - honest criticism I like!! (But don't post here, I don't want to take over the thread.)

But I tested another one and got a 4! Yay for Ray!

0-15 Points
Your character should be fine at this level.

Good test!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

BLUEEYEDBRIGADIER

Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:53 AM

Quote:

Mary Sue fic. We so rarely talk about it in depth. So let's!

Like it?
Hate it?
Wrote it?

Personally, I only go all hater on Mary Sue/Marty Stu stories when the character's actions are affecting a tad too much change. If they're suddenly solving long-standing issues like Mal & Inara's UST dance or Jayne's self-centred behaviour without much time to allow for naturalistic evolution? Then there's a problem ;)

Otherwise, I let the author run the show as they may. Minor characters have all kinds of effects on the BDHs, even when Joss is doing the scribe-work. Sheriff Bourne (Gregg Henry's character from "The Train Job") is a one-shot role that causes Mal to take a big step towards altering the crew's lives and interpersonal dynamics cuz of information and observations he provides.

Quote:
What is your most/least favoured Mary Sue scenario? The lost family member or the lost lover? Why?

Most favoured and least favoured MS scenarios, huh? I certainly don't mind the situations where the OC or OCs instigates a heist or job for the crew and interacts with them closely. Really, I will give any situation with an OC a fair shake till they start acting like Superman. Although, the lost lover or family member scenario is really mighty hackneyed in its usage. I think only Dawn Summers works in that scenario, cuz Joss fucked that cliche up badly (in the "gonna fuck you up so even yo momma won't recognized ya" vein of things) with his "make her a anthropomorphized portal key" plotline ;)

Quote:
We all know the general guidelines, but where is the delicate line between an original character and a Mary Sue/male MS for you? Do you "know it when you see it"? Does it depend on the general quality of the fic? Or the treatment of the other characters?

My guideline is "Are they (the MS/OC with MS tendencies) making an observation about something that a BDH would notice but not comment on for some reason? Or are they doing some impossibly prophetic stuff that changes a character's personality?" That and just looking at the quality of the author's work. If I can tell they are striving to have a storyline with an OC who's intelligent and capable but whose flaws are not readily visible, then I will give them some rope. They can either pull me along or hang themselves ;D

Quote:
Do you occasionally long for a Mary Sue warning along with the slash/smut/pairing/spoiler warnings that are the usual standard?

Nope...never really felt any longing for a Mary Sue/Marty Stu warning. Mainly because I could label someone's OC as one right off the bat, but eventually come to see that character as a lot more well-rounded than at first glance. Only way a warning should be used is if the author is intentionally using a blatant example of the Mary Sue character template. And hopefully only then as a parody or for humour;)

Quote:
Have you ever been the obnoxious person to point out Mary-Sue tendencies to the author of a fic, only to receive vehement denial? Or were you thanked for your kind advice which was actually used, leaving you feeling vaguely startled, flattered and guilty of manipulating someone’s creative expression?

Never pointed out an OC's MS tendencies, personally. Certainly made critical comments about the validity or believability of a character's actions or emotions...but never outright remarks about somebody's character being an MS. Not because I am cowardly...but because I see salvation where others don't. I think a lot of MS situations can be fixed with a touch of careful shepherding and creative writing.

Quote:
What about fic cliches in general? How much can you take? Which ones do you like, which ones do you hate, and which ones puzzle you in their popularity?

Other fic cliches, eh? I like most of them if done well. Joss himself proves that knowing how to write can mean using the oldest and most whipped dead horse-like plot constructs like they're brand new. I did wonder at a short run of stories at the BSR where Serenity gets totally annihilated

PHOENIXROSE

Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:49 AM

After first reading the descriptions of Mary Sues I posted earlier, my mind went to the Orson Scott Card character of Bean, so I ran him through the test and he's a 64. One thing that test doesn't ask is "Is your character better/smarter than the hero of the story?" which Bean was in "Ender's Shadow". Ugh.

http://www.bigdamnthankyou.com - show Universal your gratitude!

Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without. - Gautama Siddharta

SPACEANJL

Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:31 PM

I took the test.

34

Crap.

If anyone has read it, does it come over that badly? No-one has slapped me upside the head for it yet...

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:47 PM

Actually, I was thinking about this test last night. I still like it, but I'm not so ready to agree with it easily. And not just because one of my characters is borderline (on further reflection - I have to admit that my character totally is MS-ish! But I like him that way. )

The problem is - if you have a character who's young and attractive and at all capable, you're screwed on this test! That don't seem right. Audiences love young attractive characters. And you need them to be able to do something to advance the plot. Realistically, you do!

The best way to pass this test to have a 40+ year old ugly overweight dope who can't spell dog. A story full of those just wouldn't be fun.

Anyway, I'm with BEB. Joss has proven that a mary sue and a cliche storyline can be fabulous, if it's written well. It's that written well part that's so hard to do or define.

I still like the test for pointing out things not to do (and being pretty funny about it) but I'm not inclined to think the results are in stone.

And I love that character of Orson Scott Card's, gorramnit!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

SHINYTRINKET

Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:49 PM

Took the test and my OC got a 24.

I guess for my first try at fic writing that's not TOO horrible, and the folks who have commented on it have left positive feedback...so I hope in the continuation of the story I can continue to walk the line without going too far in the wrong direction!

*************************************************
The 3 rules of aging:
1. Never bypass a bathroom
2. Never waste an erection
3. Never trust a fart

ELOISA

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 1:32 PM

I've been thinking about it as well. Specifically, my criticism is that while it very correctly flags up the overall ridiculousness of slotting overpowered juveniles into main story roles, it does not address the main issue of a true Mary Sue fic in sufficient depth - that is as an idealised self-insert.

M4P; firstly Jase didn't seem Mary Sueish as I was reading Easy Tickets, and secondly I doubt that he would have been truly one anyway. I do know a lesbian teenage River-fan who could conceivably have written an emotionally scarred male self-insert for the sole purpose of River-snogging, but that never seems like your style to me.

The overpowered character - especially a youngster who has supreme control over his/her abilities to fight/use magic/fly spaceships/whatever annoys the heck out of me *unless* there are flagged reasons for it AND the rest of the storyverse is powered up to match. A story involving any sort of conflict (which is all of them, really) where one side has an overwhelming advantage and the other side never has a chance is boring anyway. However, I still don't think that this makes the leading character in such a story necessarily a Mary Sue, nor must a Mary Sue necessarily be in this sort of milieu. The key to the annoyance factor of a Mary Sue in my book is the blatant self-insertion character who can do anything or more than she/he should be able to do.

PONYXPRESSINC

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:45 PM

Also, my favourite 'Mary Sue', tickles me even more that she realised that Harriet Vane couldn't marry Lord Peter at the end of Strong Poison without loosing her self respect, leading to more novels.

I couldn't help liking Harriet, even in her irritating moments. :D

PONYXPRESSINC

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:48 PM

Hello Embers,

Quote:
...only good Mary Sue ever written IMO was Dorothy L. Sayer's creating the character Harriet Vane so she could marry her fictional hero: Lord Peter Whimsey.

Also, my favourite 'Mary Sue', tickles me even more that she realised that Harriet Vane couldn't marry Lord Peter at the end of Strong Poison without loosing her self respect, (leading to more novels).

I couldn't help liking Harriet, even in her irritating moments. :D

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:52 PM

Good points, Eloisa! It's the obvious self-insertion factor that really makes MS fics hard to read.

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 3:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Good points, Eloisa! It's the obvious self-insertion factor that really makes MS fics hard to read.

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

And the way the canon characters tend to be written OOC to suit the self-insertion attention fantasy.

That's why your character was never a MS to me. He is a teenaged victim, but he's not the entire focus of the story and everyone's attention. Just as much deeply caring attention is paid to, for example, Ray, the man who hurt him. So much that Ray nearly eclipsed Jase to me, in importance. Layered writing and characters. That's no MS, truly.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 3:08 PM

Thanks AR! That makes me happy to hear!

So... this probably should be obvious, but what's OOC?

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 3:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

So... this probably should be obvious, but what's OOC?

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

Out of character. :)

EMBERS

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 4:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PonyXpressInc:
Hello Embers,

Quote:
...only good Mary Sue ever written IMO was Dorothy L. Sayer's creating the character Harriet Vane so she could marry her fictional hero: Lord Peter Whimsey.

Also, my favourite 'Mary Sue', tickles me even more that she realised that Harriet Vane couldn't marry Lord Peter at the end of Strong Poison without loosing her self respect, (leading to more novels).

yes it was a classic Mary-Sue problem, she couldn't just be a VICTIM, she couldn't allow him to rescue her!
No no she had to make him grovel, for years, so that they could marry as equals....

I liked Harriet too, except that my dearly beloved Lord Peter wanted her...and in MY novel I was going to knock her out of the way and get him to realize I was his true soulmate!

River Tam Sessions on YouTube

PONYXPRESSINC

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 4:31 PM

Quote:
my dearly beloved Lord Peter wanted her...

I was completely besotted with him myself at one time. Still am come to think of it whenever I re-read the books. There’s something about very, very, very intelligent men.

Which is a bit odd considering that for me, when it comes to Firefly characters it’s Jayne every day and twice on Sundays.

PONYXPRESSINC

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 4:33 PM

Drat, computer got confused, double post, sorry.

SMARTBUTDUMBBLONDE

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 6:20 PM

score! I only got 22, which for my first OC isnt too bad I guess...

I'm trying hard to make sure my OC is in no way marySueish.

I would like to justify myself though, it does annoy me when people describe their character's features in minute detail, I only mentioned my OCs said features in the prologue as a hint as to who she might be.

***************
Never do anything you wouldn't want to explain to the paramedics.
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

ELOISA

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 7:54 PM

The whole minute-detail-description thing is a matter of author's style as much as anything. I posted part of my novel on my writing group for the feedback, and everyone pointed out how I just describe a few of each character's features (hair, skin tone etc.) and they protested I wasn't thorough enough. In Minette Walters' first book she didn't describe any of the three leading women characters except to state their hair colour and that one of them wore glasses. Other authors go into minute detail (Mercedes Lackey, for instance). It's taste.

The interesting effect is upon the readers. Susan Cooper never says what colour her character Jane's hair is. A friend asked a whole load of female readers of the Dark Is Rising sequence their opinion. A bit later he asked what their own hair colour was. It tallied. The less you say the more people have to use their imagination, and the more they seem to relate in some way to the characters.

I second AgentRouka on the canon-OOCness. However, I've never been 100% certain whether to attribute it to the Mary Sue itself or to the author's inexperience. The two often sit together - when an author's developed a little more s/he often has more depth in OCs along with ability to keep characters IC.

(And I feel the same way about Harriet Vane, BTW.)

SMARTBUTDUMBBLONDE

Thursday, September 28, 2006 6:24 PM

I just tried out Auraya from the "Age of the Five" trilogy by trudy canavan and she scored 94! and I've only read the first book, there could be more points in the others.

***************
Never do anything you wouldn't want to explain to the paramedics.
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, September 28, 2006 6:44 PM

94 - yikes! I've never heard of the book, but now I'm curious.

New things I've learned - OOC and IC. Check!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

STORMWOLFDAWN

Friday, October 6, 2006 12:43 AM

I detest MS's. They were highly prolific in my old fandom The Sentinel. Usually a female sentinel who tries to steal Blair from Jim. Yuck.

Now I come to Firefly and the BSR. Its crawling with MS's, and most don't even knows they are MS's. If you want to create an OC then write an original story not fanfiction. Unless the OC is the bad guy or some lowly henchman, the OC tends toward MS leanings. And in this fandom where Joss gives us a strong fighter female type who was experimented on by the government(River) then the biggest MS's tend to be characters who are either River's old classmates, or government trained assassins or experiments themselves. And as a recent series in the BSR shows the MS with the experimental body or trained government assassin gone wrong doesn't have to be female.

In fanfiction any OC is more than likely to have MS tendencies. If you want to create MS like original characters, stick to original stories is what I say. There are nine really good well developed characters to play with in this universe, don't need any MS's to come along to have sex with their author's favorite char.

"I was aiming for his head" -Jayne

EMPIREX

Sunday, October 8, 2006 4:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Stormwolfdawn:

Now I come to Firefly and the BSR. Its crawling with MS's, and most don't even knows they are MS's. If you want to create an OC then write an original story not fanfiction.

If you want to create MS like original characters, stick to original stories is what I say. There are nine really good well developed characters to play with in this universe, don't need any MS's to come along to have sex with their author's favorite char.

ITA! I'm pretty much a cannon-loving girl: Wash/Zoe, Kaylee/Simon, Mal/Inara, and I'm a bit of a fanfic snob myself.

It should be obvious. We don't read fanfiction to learn about someone else's OC/MS/Idealized Version of Themselves. We read fanfiction because we want more of the tv or movie characters that we love!
Now that's not to say that there are no good OCs. I've read some great Other Characters in Kaynara's Bed and Wine series (not to mention the only River/Jayne romance that didn't make me queasy!), The Pillow Book of Inara Sera, and various pre-Firefly fics featuring Mal's mother or other friends or family from Mal's past.

But nothing makes me want to

more than some thinly veiled version of the author inserted into the story for the sole purpose of doing nasty or (even worse) *romantic* things with our BDHs. Sorry. Don't wanna read it and I really wish I didn't have to wade through all the drivel to find the good stuff.

Is that harsh? Maybe.

STORMWOLFDAWN

Sunday, October 8, 2006 5:44 AM

Yep, totally with you there. I love all the cannon pairing, but I have to admit I am total Rayne babe. Can't help it. I also happen to love slash if its Jayne/Mal or Jayne/Simon but I did come from a fandom(The Sentinel) where slash was huge so I fell in love with slash there and brought that love with me to this fandom.

But yes, down with the damn MS's!!!

*****************************
"Shiny, Let's be bad guys." -Jayne

JETFLAIR

Monday, October 9, 2006 6:18 AM

Wow......every time I think I have my hands full dodging fic pitfalls, along comes something else I've never even heard of to worry about! As if the various fanfics I read that leave me wanting to scrub my eyeballs with brillo pads weren't enough.........

This was interesting to read though, as I think it goes a long way to explaining why I don't usually like original characters.

Now to the uncomfortable question......are my original characters Mary Sues? I only have two contenders in The Losing Side, both of whom started as very minor characters, but are slowly becoming more and more important to the story, especially in the stuff I've written but haven't posted yet.

The one who really worries me is Khiloh. Mary-Sue-ish qualities:

-He's human, but he doesn't have any glaring flaws. He saved Mal's life and has been a lifeline for Wash. He's kind, intelligent, insightful, a loving father, and very loyal to his friends. These facts are amplified by the fact that he's an Alliance prison guard and therefore should NOT be nice, kind, and loyal. He becomes a good and true friend to Mal and Wash. Also, I adore his character personally.

Not Mary-Sue-ish:

-No special powers, freaky hidden ties to the characters, no particular tragedy in his life, not any more talented than any of the characters, not a romantic interest to any of the characters (heck, he's married and has a kid), and I don't go on for pages about how handsome he is! He's not like me in particular, he's not female, and he's not going to die tragically saving Mals's life, either.

On the test, his score is 26 (waves at Mal4Prez). The thing is, I don't want to give him some gaping flaws. The whole reason he's in my story is that said story was in serious danger of devoloving into a sadistic exercise in surrounding Mal with horrible people putting him in miserable situations. In order to keep the feeling of humanity that Firefly had, my story desperately needed a few true good guys.

What's the verdict? :)

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

MAL4PREZ

Monday, October 9, 2006 1:38 PM

*waves back to Jetflair*

I don't think Khiloh's an MS. He's got the unexepectedness of being a nice regular guy even though he's an Alliance soldier. That gives him depth, and fits Joss's idea that the Alliance isn't all evil.

Also, I don't see Khiloh telling Mal and Wash things that YOU would tell them if you were in the story, which is the thing that would get annoying.

BTW - I'm down with the MS bashing, but take it easy on OC's in general, okay folks? Joss would have brought in new characters, some briefly, some for longer stays. Us fanfic-ers are trying to continue the FF goodness in any way we can, and that has to include new characters. We can't help it if we're not as good as Joss!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

JETFLAIR

Monday, October 9, 2006 1:54 PM

After a night of pondering on Mary Sues and the questions raised in that quiz, a few more random thoughts popped up. I'm still fuzzy on the exact definition of a MS, but it really would seem, as others have said already, that many, many professionally written characters fit that description.

I don't know how well these fit into the MS profile, but a couple of dynamics bug me a lot with how almost inevitable they seem in fiction:

The main characters will always have the worst luck in the world when it comes to getting into trouble, especially violent trouble, repeatedly and more so than any living person most of us will ever meet. But, they also have the best luck in the world when it comes to surviving, getting rescued, never suffering permanent injury (except for pretty scars), and never being particularly traumatized by what happens to them. (Sorry Mal, that's you! I still love you, though:)

Also, most fictional characters seem, well, dumber than the average human. They don't have intelligent conversations or know more than the average lab rat about human nature, nor do they make smart decisions. This, actually, is one of the reasons I love Firefly - it's an exception to that rule. The flip side to this is that the hero will all too often come up with a stroke of complete brilliance out of nowhere to save the day, then often return to being dumb as a rock. Yet, most authors ACT like their lead characters are intelligent.

So, while it's easy writing the existing Firefly characters, it's hard to add OCs and have them not be problematic. Dumb characters with strokes of brilliance are trite and boring; intelligent, insightful characters are Mary Sues. Hmmm.

The more I think about it, the more writing seems to become an exercise in avoiding pitfalls!

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

LEIASKY

Monday, October 9, 2006 11:35 PM

I took a look at that little test to just see how my first attempt at putting two OC's into a story I'm currently working on would rate.

My first thought is that someone has WAYYYYYY too much time on their hands to create such a test.

My second thought was, the characters got an 11, I think I'm fine.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, October 10, 2006 7:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jetflair:
never being particularly traumatized by what happens to them. (Sorry Mal, that's you! I still love you, though:)

You haven't seen the sequel I'm working on, LOL!!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

FRELLINGBLONDE

Tuesday, October 10, 2006 9:12 PM

*breathes a sigh of relief* I didn't think my OC had the makings of a Mary Sue (something I've been guilty of writing in the past, when I was like 14.) but I took the test anyway. Scored an 8. Just as I thought, she's too much of a lying b*tch to be a Mary Sue.

BROWNCOATJIM

Saturday, October 21, 2006 12:37 AM

ok, now someone is going to think i am an asshole for this, but maysues, to me, are a sign of immaturity in the writer. i never knew the term mary sue before tonight and looking at the wikipedia link ( i love wiki)and always just called them either simple 2 dimensional characters or superman-types. Personally, I have always preerred the dark and terribly conflicted type of character, but even he or she needs to be fleshed out with good traits and even humor and silly qualities. in other words a person, actual and whole ( doesn't that have a nice ring to it?).
How do you craft whole characters? In my opinion, before you can write about life, you need to live life. There is no substitution for experience. You need to know these people in your life, you need to have done these things yourself, before you can be a storyteller about them.
Finally, to me, how do you show the multiple facets of a given character? through dialogue with other characters. Show, don't tell, remember. Make the conversation as rel as your own conversations.

Simon: "Were there any Feds?"
mal: "No, no Feds, just an honest brawl between folk."

RIVERTHRACE

Thursday, November 23, 2006 2:19 AM

Knowing that
1. I'm not a persistent writer
and
2. Naturally immature (being a teenage girl who saw Firefly and all)
I prefer to imagine my personal time on board.I swear, I can do this for two hours before I sleep. Of course I'm much better looking and have a few cool skills.
Not to sound like an Anne Shirley or anything.
My point is, I too believe MSing should be kept private, to preserve dignity on all sides.

I am new. Feed Me.

JAMESTHEDARK

Monday, November 27, 2006 11:53 PM

This test is sort of bottom-heavy. In order to get anything near a low score, you're character has to be positively drab. When I put in Jacob Greyson (the main character of the Legacy series, which follows another crew in the same 'Verse), I ended up getting a score of 30 on check-box test.

MS traits being:
He's covered in brutal scars from a fire during his youth.
He ran away from home after losing sister in said fire. Worse, he's guilty about it.
He becomes involved in a love-triangle.
He sires a son.
He violates another MS trait about lovers, but I can't say it because it'd ruin the dramatic potential.
He's about as competant as other characters, and more observant than many.
He doesn't die from somebody looking at him sideways.
He actually impacts the progression of the story.
He got snatched by the bad guy, and tortured, to make it worse.
He has an altruistic bone in his body.
He can speak two languages in a 'Verse where everybody else is expected to.
He's as agnostic and centrist as I am.
*gasp* He's a white male.

Non-MS traits:
He's not described at all for a long while, and he's not even the third character introduced at the beginning of the story.
He's not pretty. He's not hideous, either.
He's not in particularly good shape, nor is he very young. He starts the story at the edge of turning thirty.
He is in a committed relationship, and indeed, married.
While he is fairly perceptive, sometimes, he can be quite blind to things which are obvious to others, like his wife's borderline-sociopathy.
He is tough, but Zane (another character) is tougher, he's strong, but both Sylvia (who scored much higher on the test), and Casher (ditto with Sylvia) are stronger.
The renown he accumulates leads to embarrassing and compromising situations more often than it helps.
He screws up. Often. The love-triangle is a perfect example of this.

...
That test is rigged, I tell's ya'. Rigged!

EDIT: Just did the other test. Jacob scored a 28, which is better. I guess the other test wasn't as Sue loaded as the first one.

--------------
I ain't lookin' for help from on high. That's a damn long wait for a train don't come.

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature.

MISSKITTEN

Saturday, December 16, 2006 5:43 PM

LOL, I decided to put my character "Leilah" (from my one-shot "Am I pretty?" where I wrote a story from the POV of one of Simon and Kaylee's two kids at age 6)

Mostly the questions I had to click "yes" for were questions like if the character was close to a Canon character, if a Canon character would die for your character etc... and I just though... well of course they would, it a child of two of the canon characters, so duh... lol

I ended up with the score 24 because of it... lol

*~*~*

"Joss, if you kill him now I'll stuff a compression coil up your ass sideways!"
~ Kaylee, "Serenity in 2000 words or less"

Kaylee's the perfect woman!

ANNUETTE

Sunday, December 17, 2006 11:26 AM

I don't like Mary Sues, i try to avoid them which if why i avoid fanfiction.net when the specific search engine is down. Saying that I like well written OC's who intergrate into 'verse and plot alike, I just think there are enough good characters in Firefly not to need Mary Sue's and I enjoy reading about them.

Admitedly I mainly read slash and gen so I don't see all that many of them, but when i do unless it becomes clear it isn't aMary Sue I hit the back button. I 'd enjoy reading about the crew meeting/talking/whatever with an OC but I don't want to read about a MS throing the crew off balance and making them OOC.

That's just my opinion. When i was younger i did write one and thankfully scrapped it but MS were one of the reasons i left one of my fandonms when it became so damn heavy with them, so when i can avoid I will.

TAMSIBLING

Sunday, December 17, 2006 7:06 PM

Okay - I didn't read everyone's post word for word, so forgive me if my comments seem slightly misguided, however ...

I think we need to make the distinction between Mary-Sue and OC. Not all OCs are Mary-Sues and vice versa. I agree with Mal4Prez - had the show gone on longer, Joss would have brought in new characters. Just look at Doyle from S1 of Angel, Dawn from S5 of Buffy, Riley from S4 & 5, Anya from S3, etc.

And he actually did introduce some OCs in the movie. Can you imagine the kind of story arcs Mr. Universe could have had if he'd been a regular on the series? There is no limit to the types of jams he could have helped our BDHs out of.

In my opinion an OC is brought on board to act as a foil for one or more of the canon characters. I agree, they are flawed, they wouldn't be any fun to write, nor would they have the kind of staying power or instill the type of loyalty us browncoats give them if they were cardboard cut-outs. However, our BDHs have known each other and been friends/family for years - after a time, the people who know you best may miss the signs that you are changing and/or struggling. Has anyone not found this with a best friend? Someone who you used to be so close to you couldn't tell you were two people and then one day grew apart?

It's a big 'verse and OCs are necessary to bring out some emotions in our characters, some other previously undiscovered character flaw, etc.

Now, Mary-Sues, for the purpose of being much too trite and "easy," are another matter, I agree. I have never created a Mary/Marty Sue for the express purpose of "fixing" a current BDH, however I do think there are examples on the site of some good ones. I absolutely adore the character of Freya that Jane0904 has written and I think part of the reason is that Freya does not have all the answers. She is as flawed, if not more so than Mal. Do I think it's a stretch that they're married? Yes, especially considering that Inara is still around, but if Freya were just an OC, I would still read about her.

I also think AWindsor's Pirate Children are inspired. They are the perfect amalgam of their BDH parents and always make me smile/laugh. I don't know if they're technically Mary/Marty Sues, but they are great characters.

I guess that's all ... rant done. Thanks for opening up this topic of discussion.

***
So ... explain to me your obsession with all things evil?

STORMWOLFDAWN

Tuesday, February 20, 2007 6:21 AM

This hasn't been posted on in awhile but since then the unseemly amount of stories being posted in the BSR with Mary Sues make me want to come back to this thread.

These writers need to realize that they are writing Mary Sues and not OCs that drive the plot. I don't want to read about some stupid girl who was in the Academy, who is all tough and not-perfect and doesn't have all the answers but still manages to be annoying because she is a Mary Sue. Re-read the Mary Sue test, Mary Sues arent perfect, just perfectly flawed. An author wants to write a Mary Sue then write an original novel with her original characters and post it on an original fiction archive. there are lots of those on the web, but the only OCs I want to read about are the ones that the crew end up killing in the end.

Mary Sues in an original novel are cool, because they become real character...ie Anita Blake, Ayla, Jane Eyre...hell I think Mal is a Marty Stu, but in fanfic Mary Sues are just annoying and not part of the scenery I and probably alot of people do not want to see.

The stuff in the BSR has gone downhill, I haven't read a good story on it in so long. Thank god for the Livejournals!

STORMWOLFDAWN

Tuesday, February 20, 2007 6:32 AM

Its true that in alot of original fiction the main characters can be considered Mary Sues but that's original fiction. Its their own universe and their own characters and it works especially if that 'proffesional writer' is really good.

But this is fanfiction and while there are some really good writers in fanfiction who can take the characters from the show, book, movie etc and create some really good stories, you still have people who come in and create OCs in an already created world and they become detested Mary Sues. It really only applies in fanfiction, though i will admit there are some original stories that the Mary Sues are really bad but that's just an indication of how horrible that writer really is. Mary Sue is a big indication of lack of talent in an author when it comes to fanfiction.

Yes Mal is probably a male version of a Mary Sue, he's the kind of tragic hero that a geeky guy like Joss would probably daydream he could be. But Joss is a hell of a writer who can create an original character and make him believable while us amateurs could only hope do justice to his characters and when amateurs bring in their own version of the person they wish they could be they fall short.

LEIASKY

Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:45 PM

>Thank god for the Livejournals!

I agree about most of the stuff being posted in the BSR not being good anymore.

How about some links to those LJ's? I'm always looking for something good to read!

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

STORMWOLFDAWN

Tuesday, February 20, 2007 10:36 PM

Here you go...

Rayne Shippers
http://community.livejournal.com/rayne_shippers/

Firefly Fanfic
http://community.livejournal.com/ff_fanfic/

Here's a big list of livejournals some have fanfic some are just anything dealing with Firefly or Joss.

http://www.livejournal.com/interests.bml?int=firefly

And I have found a few good stories at Fanfiction.net. Mostly Rayne being as I am a huge Rayne fan. The cool thing about fanfiction.net is that you can do a character and pairing search.

LEIASKY

Tuesday, February 20, 2007 10:41 PM

Eh, not into reading River/Jayne fic. And I check the other link you posted frequently but rarely find anything interesting there either.

fanfiction.net is hit and miss really. Most of it is terrible but at least it has a halfway decent search function.

I'm just real picky about what I read so its hard to find anything I like.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

STORMWOLFDAWN

Tuesday, February 20, 2007 10:54 PM

Its too bad you don't like Rayne but then I am against Jaylee myself and I know lots of people like it. Right now the best series I've read in a long time is a Rayne series by Dyce being posted on Rayne_Shippers and in fanfiction.net. Its absolutly wonderful and its slowly bringing River and Jayne together not tossing them into bed the first paragraph.

I also happen to love slash, and my favorite in slash is Mal/Jayne.
http://community.livejournal.com/shiny_hats/

A good link for a bunch of Firefly stories is here

http://firefly.populli.org/

PHOENIXROSE

Thursday, February 22, 2007 9:29 AM

There are a few OCs that I appreciate, I can admit that. Mostly, though, not so much.
I find it hard enough to do the original crew real justice, which is why I've only got three fanfics written. They're not very long, but I'm proud of them. If I were to write a longer story and have an OC, it would probably be a villain rather than a new member of the crew. They've gotta have someone giving them a hard time, don't they?
But really I prefer to explore the people and how they relate to each other. The most recent thing I wrote was a 'fill in the blank' in Zoe's relationship with Wash. That kind of thing is what really interests me.
I will never, ever, ever write a character of a pretty little ass-kicker who sleeps with Simon. Even if I had the skill to pull it off (which I don't think I do) the characteristics themselves would scream 'Mary Sue' and it wouldn't matter how well it was written.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

SPACEANJL

Thursday, February 22, 2007 10:06 AM

Stormwolfdawn, I can't quite get my head around your posts. You don't like OC's and want a 'verse consistent with Joss' writing. And then you want Rayne and slash?

No.

Rayne Is Not Canon. But I know the futility of arguing with folks on this.

If all you want is turnabout pairings within the same small group, then all you have is 'Friends'-in-Space, and Joss' vision deserves to be served better than that.

An OC should serve a purpose within a plot-line, and if you are in a post-BDM 'Verse, then that purpose would be one originally served by Wash, Book or even Mr Universe. The voice of faith, reason or the McGuffin to drive the plot. They can be well-rounded individuals, or a quickly sketched cameo. But anything that just consists of folks as brief cannon-fodder for our BDH's, while they bunk-hop their way across the Black, doesn't appeal to me. Not everyone they ever meet wants to bed/kill them.

STORMWOLFDAWN

Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:01 PM

Your mistaking my posts. One of the best stories in the BSR is Hotpoints series. His/Her OCs do drive the plot and they are enjoyable, but they aren't there to take relieve his/her fantasy to boff one of the crew which is what MS usually do.

Consistent with Joss's writings means when you create a OC you don't take away from the main chars. I happen to love AUs, and have written many of them in both this fandom and in my earlier fandom The Sentinel. What I don't like is Mary Sues and people who can't get it through their thick skulls that the OCs they are writing are Mary Sues and are just a waste of space.

I like villains OCs and some OCs like in Hotpoints who flow the plot along but not some female who happens to be from the Academy/ or a kick everyone's ass female who is married to Mal, or Jayne.

As for Rayne...hey all I say was if you had given Joss a few more seasons it would have happened....look at Buffy/Spike! LOL

-----------------------------
"I was aiming for his head." -Jayne

SPACEANJL

Friday, February 23, 2007 8:54 AM

Okay. Point taken. Haven't read Hotpoint.

Maybe I'm just a little sensitive on the subject, having written an OC crew member myself.

Rayne worries me on so many levels. I just can't see those two characters forming that kind of relationship, I really can't. It isn't an age thing, or even a culture thing, particularly, just an absolute personality thing. But, as I said, you can't argue with someone else's view of it.

As for the Spike/Buffy thing...given the choice between Mr-Billowy-Coat-of-Pain and his poofy hair, or some quality snark with those cheekbones...hehehe. (Look, I like bad boys. It's a character flaw.)

...er, bum. Just realised that I should run away from this thread very fast. Female OC crew member is Mrs Cobb. In my defence, she IS the cook. And physically, I doubt she could even take Kaylee.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, February 23, 2007 9:25 AM

I had to laugh when I first started reading this thread. I had no idea what Mary Sue was and I thought it was a woman here at FFF that wrote fan-fics. Here I was thinking that you all were some of the meanest critics I've ever seen and then I find out it's a just burn about shoddily written characters that are just too perfect. (loose translation at best) I was thinking, "Gee, what will Mary Sue think when she reads this thread?"

I had a few questions though from one of the posts that I saw. I'm not arguing the point, by any means. I'm just curious what your opinion is...

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I agree with SpaceAngl - there definitely are hints of MS-ness in any original character, because the people we create contain little pieces of us.

Does this pertain simply to any character that is written in a fan-fic of a particular show, comic book, [insert media here].... or are you even refering any original work as well?

If this is true of all stories, and not limited only to fan-fics, are there MS tendancies in Joss's characters as well, or is Joss somehow above MS-ness? I just ask this, because using the logic above I would think that Joss's characters all contain little pieces of him, therefore taking on the MS-ness in themselves as well.

Are there any examples of any good characters in literature that have ever been written in which the author just couldn't relate to them at all and the character did not share a single trait with it's author?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

SPACEANJL

Friday, February 23, 2007 9:40 AM

Going to be a bit wanky on this one...

I think a good character has to be understood by the writer, even if that character is very different from the writer. The key elements are imagination and empathy.

Just writing yourself as you are now and slapping that into the middle of an alien scenario will jar horribly. And that is one Mary-Sue element.

Oh, good characters very different from author? Richard Adams, 'Watership Down'.

Good characters that are drawn from author, but avoid MS-ness? Arthur Dent.

Horrendous MS-ness that people have paid money to read? Catherine Cookson.

Horrendous MS-ness in the BSR...no, that way lies trolldom.

I used to work as a bookseller, and was continually amazed by some of the sheer rubbish that gets published. (Of course, now I am trying to write professionally myself, I bless it.)

An Original Character does not have to be a Mary-Sue. I certainly hope mine isn't. But it is a pitfall, unless the writer is prepared to stretch themselves to try and attain a different perspective, and maybe come to a decision or an outcome that is different to what they might do in that situation.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, February 23, 2007 10:50 AM

Ha!... I could just imagine me in any alien scenario. I'd be the the annoying guy that talks about conspiracy theories all day. In Firefly, I think every conversation I was involved in would pertain to Reavers, PAX or the meddling of the Alliance.... or any combination of the three. Or telling people "I told you so".

I never read any Richard Adams, but I did see the old cartoon Watership Down earlier because of a freind at work and I thought it was great.

Unfortunately, I've never read Arthur Dent or Catherine Cookson (not unfortunatly about her I guess), so I really can't relate.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the BSR? I'm assuming that was in answer to my question of any characters of Joss and MS-isms.

Has anybody read Hunter Thompson? Particularly Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. Although the situations were outrageous, I think that was pretty much Hunter in the story playing himself. I think that was an example of somebody who could write himself into a fictional setting and it worked very well, but he has an excellent writing talent and is no doubt the exception to the rule.

As far as bestsellers, I've read a lot of Michael Chriton before. I think most of his movies are crap, but the books are great. Am I a victim of bad taste or does anybody feel that his work is exceptional as well?

Good luck with your writing SpaceAnJL. Thanks for responding.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

SPACEANJL

Friday, February 23, 2007 12:11 PM

Arthur Dent was the everyman 'hero' of Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

BSR is the Blue Sun Room.

As for the great gonzo himself...I just wrote a chapter set in New Vegas, has a loon flailing at bats and blabbering about the lizards in the casinos...

If you like Michael Crichton, try Lincoln Preston. (Wrote 'the Relic', which is better than the film version of it.)

"You can turn your back on a person, but never turn your back on a drug. Especially when it's waving a razor-sharp hunting knife in your eye."

EMPIREX

Sunday, February 25, 2007 2:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Stormwolfdawn:
Its too bad you don't like Rayne but then I am against Jaylee myself and I know lots of people like it. Right now the best series I've read in a long time is a Rayne series by Dyce being posted on Rayne_Shippers and in fanfiction.net. Its absolutly wonderful and its slowly bringing River and Jayne together not tossing them into bed the first paragraph.

The mark of an excellent author is one that can make you like something (a pairing or character) that you don't *want* to like. For instance, in the X-Files community, I'm a die-hard Mulder/Scully 'shipper. I wouldn't go *near* a Mulder/Other or Scully/Other fic if my life had depended on it. However, people kept rec'ing this one fic - I think it was called "Seven Stages of Human Madness" - a largely "pre-X-Files" casefile fic where Mulder is married to a woman named Deborah and has a child with her. Their child is abducted and murdered and the marriage does not survive: infidelity on his part, a nervous break-down on hers. Flash forward years later, the murderer is arrested, Deborah has become an assistant district attorney, and Mulder works with Scully on the X-Files. Even though it ended in Mulder/Scully, my heart broke over the breakup of Mulder and Deborah's marriage. The point is, she was no Mary-Sue. She was an extremely sympathetic and compelling character. The whole thing just made me cry my eyes out. I had to read it with a box of tissues!

I'm not a Rayne fan, but I want to rec you one really great post-BDM fic, Stormwolfdawn. It's primarily a Mal/Inara, but there's some truly lovely Rayne towards the end. Beautifully written River and Jayne - what each might have become if both characters had been given the chance to grow more: Kaynara's "Strange Bedfellows/Bedlam/Bed and Wine" series. It's a slow build to Rayne, which is what made it so plausible. One of the best fics I've ever read. Very Exciting. But it's a tear-jerker, I warn you.

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I was thinking, "Gee, what will Mary Sue think when she reads this thread?"

Ha! Too funny!! I want to register as MarySue so I can post a stingy reply LOL!

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I agree with SpaceAngl - there definitely are hints of MS-ness in any original character, because the people we create contain little pieces of us.

Does this pertain simply to any character that is written in a fan-fic of a particular show, comic book, [insert media here].... or are you even refering any original work as well?

Sorry I never responded - I just saw this post today!

First, the reason I said what you quoted was because I sensed a kind of witch hunt paranoia getting started here. Some writers were getting this tone like "OMG my OC is a bit like me it's an MS I must kill it now!!" and other folks were suggesting that all OCs are bad because they are reflections of the writer.

My point is - of course all characters are, in at least some degree, reflections of the writer. Any character created in any media is made out of what's in the creator's head!

The writer has to feel for the character, be passionate about him/her, in order to inspire passion in the reader. (And I mean passion as like or dislike.) So, the best characters we write will have our traits or the opposite of our traits because that's what we know, and that's what we're inspired by.

The problem with a true MS is - the writer doesn't know when to let go...

Perhaps I was off in saying this is a hint of MS in every OC. I was trying to say that there is a hint of author surrogate - which, by some definitions, by the definition in that test, is the same thing as a Mary Sue.

I guess the two could be differentiated like this: MS's have the unfortunate habit of not fitting. In fanfic, they take over the canon characters, imposing the will and personality of the writer on an already created `verse, whether it makes sense or not. Often, the cannon characters and tone of the fictional world are greatly changed.

In orginal fic, an MS can do the same thing if the writer's primary focus is self-aggrandizement and fantasy fulfillment, rather than creating a believable and self-consistent world. A good writer can do both at the same time - which is why some characters who score so high on the MS test don't bother us. When we read them, we see them fitting into their world, and we don't see the hand of the writer.

Quote:
If this is true of all stories, and not limited only to fan-fics, are there MS tendancies in Joss's characters as well, or is Joss somehow above MS-ness? I just ask this, because using the logic above I would think that Joss's characters all contain little pieces of him, therefore taking on the MS-ness in themselves as well.

I sort of got to this above...

But of course Joss's characters have MS tendencies! Kaylee and River are definitely half way there, which is why so many fic writers have an easy time turning them into KayleeSue and RiverSue. But Joss is so creative in how he uses them, and he gives them such deep interaction with other characters and puts them in such a vivid world, that it works.

Which is why we should take the Mary Sue thing with a big bunch of salt, and think though any character ere we judge and dismiss...

Quote:
Are there any examples of any good characters in literature that have ever been written in which the author just couldn't relate to them at all and the character did not share a single trait with it's author?

I'm not sure about that, haven't studied much literature, just read it for fun.

It would certainly be an interesting challenge to try...

My feeling is that I couldn't make a character who I found fully despicable. To create an OC, I have to know everything about them, even the things they hide and, perhaps, don't even know about themselves. Anybody you know at this level, you begin to feel for. Because we're all human (at least, I try to make characters who are.)

I ha

TINADOLL

Tuesday, March 27, 2007 8:29 PM

Most Mary-Sues annoy me. MOST. Unless well written...By me...Like Scorpion..

So whats wrong with a little Jaylee?

6IXSTRINGJACK

Thursday, March 29, 2007 12:59 AM

Hey thanks for the thought out reply. No worries about Michael Chriton. I've never considered myself cultured, and I kinda figured that just admiting that I actually find enjoyment in one thing that the masses seem to enjoy kinda sets me up to take a few jabs. I usually run from anything that the proles tend to enjoy.

Maybe the MartySueness of Chriton's work is what attracts me to his stories. When all this bad crap is happening in the world and you feel completley impotent when it comes to doing anything about it, I must admit that it's nice reading a story and putting myself in a position where I can actually make a difference. At least, that's how I read his work. I nearly always imagine myself as the main character that I associate my own tendancies the most with.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

ALLIETHORN7

Thursday, March 29, 2007 2:01 AM

Oh, Christ... how I would LOVE to say I hate them- if I hadn't already wrote one! Though, I'm glad to say, she was gone after a few chaps...

-Danny

I wanna take the Bullet,
The one aimed straight for your Heart;
I wanna meet the wolves halfway,
And let them Tear me APART,
But that's not the way they do it here...
THRICE RULES!!!!!!!!!

MAL4PREZ

Monday, April 2, 2007 7:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I usually run from anything that the proles tend to enjoy.

Yeah, I get horrified by liking things the crowd goes for. I resisted Matt Damon for years cause of all the Matt and Ben are the best crap, then when I finally saw Good Will Hunting... *crush*

LOL! I still don't like Ben though. So there - I maintain some individuality!

Quote:
Maybe the MartySueness of Chriton's work is what attracts me to his stories.

If I were a guy, I probably would go for this stuff too! But I'm a little sensitive to how characters are portrayed as far as gender, and can't get past it with him...

So what's my guilty pleasure? Oh yes, the writing is *abominable* and the extras are chosen for good looks rather than acting ability, but I did sit in for several seasons of Charmed. Most definitely there was identification with the main characters, despite all the shortcomings of the show.

I just never got why they whinged so much about wanting to be normal. As if it's better to work 8 hours days and pay taxes and change diapers for a living. Yick.

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.