Tonight's Angel was Beautiful

POSTED BY: Knibblet
UPDATED: Friday, February 13, 2004 15:54
VIEWED: 22636
PAGE 1 of 1

KNIBBLET

Thursday, February 5, 2004 3:05 AM

I won't ruin it for anyone. It was beautiful.
'nuff said.

CHANNAIN

Thursday, February 5, 2004 3:10 AM

I'd like to second that. An excellent 100th episode

We have art so as not to die of truth ~ Neitzsche
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

INSANESPIKE

Thursday, February 5, 2004 3:14 AM

I agree whole-heartedly. One of the best episodes of Angel I have seen.

ARAWAEN

Thursday, February 5, 2004 3:28 AM

So beautiful, I am going to treat it as the series finale. Farewell Doyle! Farwell Lindsey! Farewell Cordelia! Farewell Angel Investigations!

Arawaen

CECIL

Thursday, February 5, 2004 3:31 AM

Your all lucky. I didnt even get to see it. A stupid college basketball game was on. I wanted to see Cordy again. Its not fair!!!!

MAL
"Nice shot."
JAYNE
(slurred)
"I was aiming for his head"

KNIBBLET

Thursday, February 5, 2004 3:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by cecil:
Your all lucky. I didnt even get to see it. A stupid college basketball game was on. I wanted to see Cordy again. Its not fair!!!!
B]

My email is knibblet@hotmail.com

If you'd like, send me a note and I'll write you a play-by-play of the episode.

SHEPHERDOFHERMAS

Thursday, February 5, 2004 3:35 AM

This was a very emotional episode for me. Charisma was magnificent. This is my favorite Angel episode to date. It is hard to imagine where the show will go from here, but I will ache now that I have seen again how powerful it is when Cordelia is in the mix.

PHLEBOTININ

Thursday, February 5, 2004 3:53 AM

Charisma was magnificent indeed. I can't believe how moving this episode was. So beautiful and so very, very sad.

SUCCATASH

Thursday, February 5, 2004 4:01 AM

Wow. Long live this show!

CECIL

Thursday, February 5, 2004 4:09 AM

Thanks, but I'm gonna see if I cant download it first, if I cant, than I'll email ya. Thanks

MAL
"Nice shot."
JAYNE
(slurred)
"I was aiming for his head"

APEMAN61

Thursday, February 5, 2004 4:12 AM

Yes It was good

GINOBIFFARONI

Thursday, February 5, 2004 4:54 AM

Not to give anything away, at the end all I thought was " No... Joss sucks "

Only on one of his shows you get the emotional rollercoaster like this.

Next weeks looks like it could be fun...

Spike a Nazi ? Looking forward to it

" Thats not fair !!!!
I didn't even have a soul when I did that!"

STEVE580

Thursday, February 5, 2004 5:01 AM

Wait wait...so there was an episode, and the basketball game just meant it wasn't aired here in MD? That f'ing sucks!

Damn it. I'll pay for the cost of a tape and shipping if someone could send me a copy...till then, guess I'll search Kazaa.
-Steve

*edit* ah, 'twould seem I've found what I was seraching for. For anyone who missed tonight's Angel, http://www.buffy.nu/article.php3?id_article=3168 has the entire episode available for downloading. I have 2% so far! Woo-hoo!

RUXTON

Thursday, February 5, 2004 6:08 AM

...Didn't realize how much I missed Cordy. Pity she's not a regular any more. Loved her whup-arse job on the zombies.

But given what happened to her at the end of the show, and the Mutant Enemy history with similar situations, I suspect we can mebbe, hopefully, look forward to seeing her again.

Maybe her popularity with the fans, as shown in this forum already, will get her back before TOO long.

Nice to see Glenn Quinn on the tape, too. Long live the real Doyle.

......Rxtn

INDIANABANZAI

Thursday, February 5, 2004 6:52 AM

Wow.

Last time I came this close to tears while watching TV....

... was the first time I saw "Out of Gas".

Damn you, Joss, for making such emotionally draining TV! And thanks.

BOOMERGOODHEART

Thursday, February 5, 2004 9:37 AM

As soon as Angel's phone started ringing at the end, I knew what was up. Way cool.

BoomerGoodheart
"I love my Captain."

WINTERFELL

Thursday, February 5, 2004 11:19 AM

I don't think charisma will be coming back.. she was specifically looking for a way to get her character off the show for good. i think this was the all time classiest way to do it. This episode was the most Angel-like episode I've seen all season.. it really brought thoughts and memories back from watching the first few seasons. IMO it could have easily been the series finale and I would have accepted that and cherished it. That was 50 times better than the buffy finale even.. ug.. i miss doyle.. :(

~~Robb of Winterfell~~
~ http://winterfell.org ~
High Fantasy Heavy Metal

THALOS

Thursday, February 5, 2004 2:25 PM

It was a solid episode, but I was slightly dissappointed about the whole Doyle situation. My feeling was that when Spike's "source" was figured out to be Doyle, then there would be a whole episode based on trying to figure out the truth about this new Doyle, meanwhile buying time for Lindsey to do some plan. The way it played out in this episode, Lindsey could have used any alias in order to "hide" his true identity from Angel and copmpany.

Am I way off base, or not?

"Whoa, good Bible."

KNIBBLET

Thursday, February 5, 2004 2:39 PM

Lindsey chose to use Doyle's name as a way of 'adding insult to injury'.

The long-term plan was to mess with Angel and Spike until Spike was absolutely convinced he was the real deal and Angel doubted himself so thoroughly, he'd be completely ineffectual.

He never expected Cordelia to wake up and throw a "gorilla throwing barrels" sized monkey wrench into the works. Her appearance changed everything.

Yes, he could have used any name. Lindsey chose to use "Doyle" as a joke. Hurt your enemy whilst hiding behind the guise of a friend.

Spike wasn't supposed to give Cordelia a 'taste test'. Lindsey was most likely expecting Spike to drink till his eyeballs turned pink. Angel wasn't supposed to drag Spike of Cordy. Cordy wasn't supposed to be around for any of this.

This episode reminded me why Joss should be elected God or at least, Potentate of Guilty Pleasures.

HIROSTONE

Thursday, February 5, 2004 4:37 PM

Cordelia was always my favorite Joss character. Even when she was with the "Joan Collin's 'tude", she was just being honest and herself. And I've always felt that Cordy was the most evolved of all of Joss' characters the way she went from "Queen C" to "A Power That Be".

Charisma was beautiful, as always, and I have been and always be in love with her. But it was a very touching and cathartic way to let her character go. Fans will certainly miss her. And remember, Cordy will never truly be gone.

No, I don't mean that through some kind of "always remembering her/always in our thoughts" stuff. Like in comic books, Joss' characters never die, they just get re-written (or they appear as The First).

-Hiro

Paraphrasing Zoe:
"Once you're in Serenity, you never truly leave."

HJERMSTED

Thursday, February 5, 2004 4:50 PM

Fantastic episode!!!

Both the funniest and the saddest ep of the season (if not the series).

Cordy: "Uh... Spike WHO?"

roflmao!!!

Thanks ME!! Fantastic job!

It was great to have Charisma back and in such fine form. She didn't have to come back. She could have pulled a diva on Mutant Enemy like a certain Scooby snack is doing at present.

Oh well... this just means Charisma actually outlasted SMG in the Buffy-verse since they both started on the same day.

mattro

KNIBBLET

Thursday, February 5, 2004 5:03 PM

If I remember correctly, SMG originally auditioned for the part of Cordelia but was offered Buffy. To quote Artie Johnson ... "Very interesting ... but stupid." :)

So observant kittens and cats, how old does quoting "Laugh In" lines make me?

Quote:
Originally posted by Hjermsted:
... Charisma ... didn't have to come back. She could have pulled a diva on Mutant Enemy like a certain Scooby snack is doing at present... this just means Charisma actually outlasted SMG in the Buffy-verse since they both started on the same day.

AERRIN

Thursday, February 5, 2004 5:08 PM

Just a note for those who missed it because of basketball (though I've heard it's supposed to air Saturday? may want to check local listings.)

If you can't find the ep up on Kazaa yet, try buffy.nu. Just install bittorrent, and you have easy and instant access to great-quality Angel eps. Highly reccomend it.

ETA: Teach me to skim down the list. I see it's already been mentioned! Ah well. Another can't hurt, right? ;)

KASUO

Thursday, February 5, 2004 5:39 PM

Highlights:

- Wes saying "You look hot" and "old school"

- Harmony: "I'm evil. I can beat her up."

- "One for the road."

________
"Let's moon 'em!"

OKKAY

Thursday, February 5, 2004 6:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Winterfell:
I don't think charisma will be coming back.. she was specifically looking for a way to get her character off the show for good. i think this was the all time classiest way to do it. This episode was the most Angel-like episode I've seen all season.. it really brought thoughts and memories back from watching the first few seasons. IMO it could have easily been the series finale and I would have accepted that and cherished it. That was 50 times better than the buffy finale even.. ug.. i miss doyle.. :(

~~Robb of Winterfell~~
~ http://winterfell.org ~
High Fantasy Heavy Metal

I was under the impression that it wasn't Charisma that wanted to leave the show, but rather the producers (or whoever's in charge) who made the decision to get rid of her.

My thoughts on this episode were that had they never come up with that stupid Connor storyline, Cordelia would still be a regular on the show. I may be in the minority here, but in my opinion, Angel has gone downhill ever since the episode where Holtz stole Connor.

I really hope that next season, they find some way to bring Cordelia back, the show is not the same without her.

SPIKESPIEGEL

Thursday, February 5, 2004 6:40 PM

I thought it was a good episode, and Charisma was in fine form ... in every sense.

David Fury is great with the plot and action, but not one of the best at the humor, and I thought the jokes could've used a punch.

In a way, I found the ep underwhelming, because it was just a one-off that wasn't all that dramatic. I mean, the ending was done so ... casually.

But I decided that was best. To have given it a big heavily scored, sob-for-twenty-minutes ending, to blow up all of Los Angeles or have really long speeches and, like, people cradlilng broken, bloody bodies and crying, "NOOOO!" (anti-spoiler, I guess: that's not what happens).

It was a really classy finale for Charisma, and finding a way to salute Glenn Quinn was equally classy and charming.

But all through the episode, my wife is saying, over and over, "This show SO needs Cordelia back." Her brief reappearance, sans all the possessed-by-evil, elevated-to-higher-whateverhood crap, just demonstrated how much she brought to the show.

And, man, I don't wanna get spoilery, But the discussion between Angel and Cordy about the course of their relationships and feelings was absolutely perfect.

"Bang."

KNIBBLET

Thursday, February 5, 2004 6:56 PM

It was the quiet ending - the way the phone call would actually come from the hospital - the 'realness' of a completely unreal situation.

As soon as Angel turned and Cordy wasn't there, I knew. Just as I knew when the wedding ring hit the floor in "Sixth Sense", I knew.

I'm a grown woman and I'm not ashamed to admit, it stole my breathe, closed my eyes and left me fighting tears.

Lovely way to say goodbye to Cordelia.

SPACEANGLER

Thursday, February 5, 2004 7:07 PM

You know what?
It's times like these I get really pissed there's no WB in Virginia.
Guess i'm stuck watching last season's eps on TNT until next year.

--------------------------------------------
"Can he, you know, chase us? Because I know if I woke up looking like that, I'd just run towards the nearest living thing, and then kill it." ~Aqua Teen Hunger Force

SEANMACROS

Thursday, February 5, 2004 7:46 PM

If you're not happy with the fact that you don't get a WB station locally in your area, Dish Network offers a Superstation Package among their other offerring which includes 3 wb's and 2 upn's. It was my way around their not being a local WB affiliate. Plus the WB affiliates are from NY, Denver, and LA which makes some of those frustrating time conflicts less so because you can see a 9:00 show at 9:00, 10:00 or 12:00. I don't know if Directv offers anything similar.

SPACEANGLER

Thursday, February 5, 2004 7:47 PM

Meh, i'm poor. Guess I'll just use BitTorrent, unless anyone can upload the latest episode onto my FTP server.

JUSTDAVID

Thursday, February 5, 2004 7:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Knibblet:
... how old does quoting "Laugh In" lines make me?

42.

Quote:

It was the quiet ending - the way the phone call would actually come from the hospital - the 'realness' of a completely unreal situation.

I totally agree. I watched Smallville before Angel, and when

Select to view spoiler:

they did the closing scene with Jonathan Kent maybe dying, I saw it coming a good minute before, and it was SO cliche, with a slow-mo shot of a plate dropping, the whole thing just rang so false.

But with Angel, it felt completely real, and heartbreaking. I'm still absorbing it.

Haken needs a new development system for fireflyfans.net, please donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283

SPACEANGLER

Thursday, February 5, 2004 7:52 PM

Oh, by the way...
Totally off topic, but still on Angel. The episode Wednesday on TNT at 5, I don't know which one it was, but it was right after "Five By Five", the girl from Law and Order and the police were all combing over the room where Wes was tortured. They were all wearing blue gloves. Exactly (and I mean EXACTLY) like the gloves the bad guys on Firefly wear.

Weird, huh?

SPIKESPIEGEL

Thursday, February 5, 2004 8:01 PM

Ah, but in defense of that Smallville scene,

Select to view spoiler:

the line Jonathan gives when he has the heart attack in the barn is the same line Glenn Ford said when HIS J.K. had his fatal heart attack in the barn in Superman: The Movie.

That awareness of what had come before and very subtle nod to it impressed me.

"Bang."

JUSTDAVID

Thursday, February 5, 2004 8:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpikeSpiegel:
That awareness of what had come before and very subtle nod to it impressed me.

You're right, I always like it when they do that kind of thing. I really shouldn't have judged Smallville by Angel standards. I enjoy Smallville very much for what it is.

Angel has just been SO good lately.

Haken needs a new development system for fireflyfans.net, please donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283

SPIKESPIEGEL

Thursday, February 5, 2004 9:01 PM

You know, I'm mixed on the overall direction/quality of "Angel" lately. Cordelia's brief return reminded me of how much I miss her -- the her before she became whatever goddess she was before the Jasmine arc started.

I CERTAINLY love this season's lighter and more self-contained stories, compared to the horrors of last season, but I find myself longing for the simpler, and I think better, times of the first two or three three seasons. This moping about being corrupted by Wolfram & Hart ... well, duh. DO something about it, already.

Yeah, overall, I do like this season, and it's a great recovery from last season. I just feel it's a hair short of greatness. And with Cordy gone, I realize the only character left on the show I TRULY care about is Angel. I like the others, but none of them quite measure up to Cordelia, just as Eve seems like only a pale (literally) imitation of Lila.

But I feel like the show is on the right track, and am optimistic it can get even better.

"Bang."

INDIANABANZAI

Thursday, February 5, 2004 9:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpikeSpiegel:
Ah, but in defense of that Smallville scene,
Select to view spoiler:
the line Jonathan gives when he has the heart attack in the barn is the same line Glenn Ford said when HIS J.K. had his fatal heart attack in the barn in Superman: The Movie.

That awareness of what had come before and very subtle nod to it impressed me.

Really? I thought

Select to view spoiler:

all that was said in Superman: The Movie was "Oh, no," and then he collapses.

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL

Thursday, February 5, 2004 10:18 PM

I live in LA, and on Tuesday I had my 32nd birthday party at the Cat & Fiddle, the pub where the gang was headed at the end of the episode. If only I'd been born on the 4th instead of the 3rd, I could've met them there...!

I miss Cordy and Lindsey already. I hope Lindsey isn't gone for good.

SPIKESPIEGEL

Thursday, February 5, 2004 10:37 PM

Indy,

Damn. When I get home, I'll have to drop the Superman the Movie DVD into the gizmo and double-check. You may be right; now I'm not sure.

BTW, people, the Superman movie spec. ed. DVD has some of the most fun and interesting commentary I've ever heard (Donner and writer Tom Mankiewicz), sounding like two guys you'd overhear telling stories at the coolest cocktail party ever. Highly recommended.

I return you now to your regularly scheduled Angel/Cordelia thread ...

"Bang."

KALATHENA

Thursday, February 5, 2004 11:08 PM

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU, Joss, for making a liar out of me. I truly believed before I finished watching this ep a few minutes ago that Joss would never break that part of his formula.

I should have stuck with my original gut feeling when she pulled the curtain at the hospital. I knew it then, but the episode reeled me in so tightly that I completely forgot. Nice work.

Wow. The dialogue in this one really rocked. I especially loved:

Angel: I'm not letting anyone I care about go in there.

Spike: I'll go.

Angel: Okay.

I have a couple of issues, one small, one kinda large, though I may still find that things will change...

First, since when does Angel have any qualms about torturing Wolfram & Hart employees?? He did it before when Connor went missing. That whole scene just reeked of backing off because Eve was female. After last week's ep, that seemed totally anathema of the show.

I really do hope this thing with Lindsey isn't over. I'd hate to think they did this whole build up for just simple revenge. That kind of linear plotting is beneath this writing team.

Quote:
I was under the impression that it wasn't Charisma that wanted to leave the show, but rather the producers (or whoever's in charge) who made the decision to get rid of her.

Nope. You were under the wrong impression. In the interviews I read Charisma left for 2 reasons. 1) She felt there wasn't much left to do with the character (remember, she played it for seven years) and 2) She did not want to be on a full-time series after she had her baby.

I hope this isn't a wrap-up of the whole questioning their decision to work for W & H. It was, however, an incredibly beautiful wrap-up for Cordelia.

--Kala

SERENITYVALLEY

Friday, February 6, 2004 12:09 AM

I realize that I LOVE this season because of all the references to other epsiodes. Yeah, there's always pop culture references, but I love it when they mention things that have happened earlier in the show and this episode had the most so far.
-Doyle
-"threw him out a window"
-Cordy and Angel meeting that one night
-Lindsey's hand cut off
etc.

http://www.simple-assault.com/Firefly.htm

STEAMEDBAO3

Friday, February 6, 2004 12:12 AM

Now i am as big an angel fan as the next guy but the 100th episode was horrible. It wass choppy, unfinished and it felt as if they were tryin to wrap up plot points just for the sake of wrapping up plot points. Also it seemed as if they could not decide what to do with Cordy...at one point she is her old sunnydale self than she is the wise Obi Wan type character and than she is ready to kick but. It was very haphazardly thrown together with out any real thought. It felt rushe. Put than That is just my two cents.

God created Mudder's Milk so the Independence wouldn't take over the 'verse.

STEAMEDBAO3

Friday, February 6, 2004 12:13 AM

Now i am as big an angel fan as the next guy but the 100th episode was horrible. It wass choppy, unfinished and it felt as if they were tryin to wrap up plot points just for the sake of wrapping up plot points. Also it seemed as if they could not decide what to do with Cordy...at one point she is her old sunnydale self than she is the wise Obi Wan type character and than she is ready to kick but. It was very haphazardly thrown together with out any real thought. It felt rushe. Put than That is just my two cents.

God created Mudder's Milk so the Independence wouldn't take over the 'verse.

WINTERFELL

Friday, February 6, 2004 12:15 AM

thanks for the clarification Kala.. I also read those interviews with charisma and why SHE wanted to leave (Glad I wasn't going mad thinking that or something)

As far as characters go, I have to say out of all the characters in all of the Buffy-verse I think Wes gets crapped on the most. No one seems to pick HIM as the fav character or best actor or whatever.. Are there any other Hardcore Wyndham Pryce fans out there besides me???

Here's a guy who has really evolved as a character.. and just continually is dealt bad hand after bad hand in life, but keeps rolling with the punches.. He is amazingly devoted to his friends but NOT above doing what is right (taking Conner) when the chips are down. He shot what he thought was his father like 15 times without even blinking when he threatened Fred.. I mean Wes is just a truly amazing character. What makes all of his quirks so great to me I suppose is the fact that unlike spike and angel who could pull all of that off as well.. Wesley was never evil.. (minus the ep where he had that blood stuff on him) I mean.. he never killed people like angel or spike and yet it's like he has to pay as much as they do in life.. Think that's why I loved Doyle so much too. He was a generally good (though a bit shady at times) guy who had a good past and didn't deserve what happened to him, yet he made the best of it. Angel and spike deserve any misery they get.

CECIL

Friday, February 6, 2004 12:22 AM

I would like to thank STEVE580 for the link. That episode was awesome.

MAL
"Nice shot."
JAYNE
(slurred)
"I was aiming for his head"

JUSTDAVID

Friday, February 6, 2004 12:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SteamedBao3:
...the 100th episode was horrible.

Do we have an emoticon for astonishment?!
I had to check some of your other posts to make sure you weren't just a troll (no offense).
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but WOW do I disagree with you!

Haken needs a new development system for fireflyfans.net, please donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283

KURUKAMI

Friday, February 6, 2004 1:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Winterfell:
No one seems to pick HIM as the fav character or best actor or whatever.. Are there any other Hardcore Wyndham Pryce fans out there besides me???

*raises his hand* Yo!

Despite Wes's somewhat farcical introduction to Angel back in season 1, he's really grown and evolved as a character. I think I've really been loving him since... hmm, probably since around mid-season 3 for certain, but probably since back in season 2 in "The Thin Dead Line".

And season 4 is where he majorly came into his own, being magician and gadget-guy. Wes da man... far more than Angel, in my book anyways.

History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.

WINTERFELL

Friday, February 6, 2004 1:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kurukami:
*raises his hand* Yo!

Alright!! knew there had to be some sensible folk out there.

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, February 6, 2004 1:38 AM

I'm a big Wes fan as well,

the love triangle ( been there )

I also share his afinity for shotguns...

" Thats not fair !!!!
I didn't even have a soul when I did that!"

TWOBLUEEYES

Friday, February 6, 2004 2:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAngler:
You know what?
It's times like these I get really pissed there's no WB in Virginia.
Guess i'm stuck watching last season's eps on TNT until next year.

--------------------------------------------
Angel's 100th episode.

Just so perfect.

Thank you, David Fury.
Thank you, Charisma, for returning.
Thank you, for remembering Doyle.

And SpaceAngler, if you live in the Richmond area, Angel is broadcast on Channel 12 (NBC) on Friday at 2:30 a.m. ! I'd prefer the WB's scheduled airing but at least it's shown here !

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME

CECIL

Friday, February 6, 2004 4:43 AM

I loved that they showed Doyle on the tape. Brings a tear to your eye and makes you remember him, Cordy and Angel all in that one little room. I almost expected Angel to answer "Angel Investigations" when he picked up the phone at the end. But, I love how it ended. I very nearly cried.

MAL
"Nice shot."
JAYNE
(slurred)
"I was aiming for his head"

STEVE580

Friday, February 6, 2004 12:12 PM

I'm currently watching seasons 1, 4, and 5 of Angel simultaneously, and it was less than a week ago that I saw the ep with Doyle’s tape. I thought it was awesome that they brought it back again.

This episode was really, really good. I love this whole season; got kinda nervous when Angel threatened quitting. It seems so…fresh. The good guys having the upper hand, not being the underdogs – when have you seen that before?

Someone said this ep lacked comedy, but I don’t know; I laughed out loud several times. The Harmony scenes, for one; and the scene where Spike agrees to help. I particularly like the one with Harm, because it was the first time that she was ever really an important member of the group.

Then the fight with Angel and Lindsey was cool. I loved the end: “I’m Angel. I beat the bad guys.” It was so simple; he beats the bad guys.

Then they all went out for drinks at the end…it made them seem like a cohesive unit, perhaps for the first time. I really hoped Cordellia was going to stay at the end, though I knew she wouldn’t. When at first, it seemed as though she had no good reason to leave, I got a bit upset with the writers: why would she abandon them? Then the phone call; that was great.

So yeah, great episode.

And hey, Cecil: You’re welcome.

-Steve

STEVE580

Friday, February 6, 2004 12:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Winterfell:
...Angel and spike deserve any misery they get.

Whaaah...how do you figure? Because their bodies were used to commit crimes? That doesn't seem very fair...
-Steve

KALATHENA

Friday, February 6, 2004 12:52 PM

Quote:
Someone said this ep lacked comedy, but I don’t know; I laughed out loud several times.

Me, too. In fact, it was so funny that my husband asked, "Did you catch who the writer was? Is this an Espenson?" It did have that "laugh your butt off till the tragic ending..." feel of an Espenson episode. Good job, David Fury!

The connections to the past they made were wonderful. This was a great fan episode without resorting to a stupid clip show. They even showed a clip and it made sense that they did! Brilliant.

I'm a little disappointed that Lindsey really did turn out to be evil. Ah well. My old theory about him trying to bring down W & H REALLY fell apart last night. However, a new and extremely chilling thought hit me just before I climbed into bed last night. I include spoiler space only because it gives away what happens to Lindsey at the end of the ep. This is pure speculation:

Select to view spoiler:

Lindsey isn't being eaten by the Senior Parnters. They're MAKING him a Senior Partner.

Kinda chills the blood, eh?

--Kala

KNIBBLET

Friday, February 6, 2004 4:32 PM

Kinda chills the blood, eh?
--Kala

Chilly Willy the Freakin Penguin, chilly.
Gads, woman, you're evil for thinking it :)

WINTERFELL

Friday, February 6, 2004 6:30 PM

"Whaaah...how do you figure? Because their bodies were used to commit crimes? That doesn't seem very fair...
-Steve"

Are you saying that Angel's and Spike's SOULS don't deserve it because they weren't present for the majority of the killing? (they have both done some pretty bad stuff even after they got thier souls back)

One could also argue that mearly surrenduring to dru and darla in the first place and becoming vampires is enough of a crime...

Wes never did

KALATHENA

Friday, February 6, 2004 6:35 PM

Heh heh. Yeah, I tend to be a bit on the evil side. Comes from being married to an author.

But you gotta admit, what Lindsey did sure would impress the sh** out of them, wouldn't it?

--Kala

LITWOLF689

Friday, February 6, 2004 9:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by cecil:
Your all lucky. I didnt even get to see it. A stupid college basketball game was on. I wanted to see Cordy again. Its not fair!!!!

MAL
"Nice shot."
JAYNE
(slurred)
"I was aiming for his head"

The same thing happened to me but I have found out when it will be on again.

The 'Your Welcome' 100th episode is coming on on Saturday, February 7th, at 5:00 pm.

This is when it will be where I live anyway and thats in Maryland. You might, if you can, bring up a guide on your tv and check the time but that's what time it is for me.

Enjoy the episode!!!
^-^

KURUKAMI

Saturday, February 7, 2004 12:37 AM

Quote:
But you gotta admit, what Lindsey did sure would impress the sh** out of them, wouldn't it?

I find myself wondering just what exactly Lindsey was up to. It doesn't really make sense that he'd go to all the trouble to set up Spike, break into Wolfram and Hart and all that, just to try to settle a vendetta with Angel... particularly since they parted on semi-decent terms.

Eve's assertion that there was some beastie down in that room that was (forgive my tired memory, I may be mistaken) something that was there to kill Angel if necessary similarly strikes me as off. If Lindsey wanted to kill Angel, it seems likely that he'd be able to try to do so without all the hullabaloo of the big room downstairs.

Also... was I the only one who noticed that said room looked a lot like the same big summoning room that Darla was brought back to the human world in, back at the end of Season 1? That little tidbit, combined with the weird inscribed stones on that big central plateau, makes me suspect that Lindsey had some entirely different motive... and that his getting dragged into that portal in the sky might've been just what he was hoping for. Sure, the tats that concealed him from the attentions of the Senior Partners seemed to have evaporated... but presumably he was still tremendously strong and tough, with an array of sorcerer's tricks to call upon.

I think we haven't seen the last of Lindsey this season. He had a bit too much setup time to just go *poof!* like that, particularly since it's still the middle of season 5.

History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.

KALATHENA

Saturday, February 7, 2004 2:00 AM

Yeah, I think it was the same set they used to summon Darla.

I do think there's going to be more with Lindsey, but it could just be the obsessive longing of a Christian Kane fan. The revenge plotline was way too linear for this team, though they have on occassion done a big build up to nothing.

Yes, they did leave on semi-decent terms and Lindsey seemed to be headed down a redemptive path. I was hoping they'd stick with their theme of grayness having to fight a powerful Lindsey, who actually *was* on the side of good and the Powers That Be in order to maintain what they'd gained by taking over W & H. That doesn't seem to be playing out now.

However, Lindsey did once before try to set himself on the redemptive path and failed miserably. Perhaps he's failed again only to gain what he's always wanted most: More Power.

The more I think on this, the more I think he's just got the promotion of a lifetime...or an eternity.

--Kala

STEVE580

Saturday, February 7, 2004 6:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Winterfell:
"Whaaah...how do you figure? Because their bodies were used to commit crimes? That doesn't seem very fair...
-Steve"

Are you saying that Angel's and Spike's SOULS don't deserve it because they weren't present for the majority of the killing? (they have both done some pretty bad stuff even after they got thier souls back)

One could also argue that mearly surrenduring to dru and darla in the first place and becoming vampires is enough of a crime...

Wes never did

It's mentioned on the show that when you become a vampire, that just means that you leave your body, and a demonic force takes it over. So, when you return to you body, you can't be held accountably in any way for what happened while you were out.

I don't know, Spike's been pretty much heroic since the return of his soul. As for Angel, he lost his soul a couple more times; and there was that time after Darla came back. But nothing he's ever done (nothing Angel's ever done, that is; not Angelus) qualifies as 'evil'.
-Steve

STEVE580

Saturday, February 7, 2004 6:57 AM

Agh! Double post!

DRAKON

Saturday, February 7, 2004 5:02 PM

When Harmony was smackin Eve, and Eve gave in soo quickly, did anyone else here a little voice in the back of their heads "I was gonna get me an ear, too."

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

DRAKON

Saturday, February 7, 2004 5:14 PM

Not so sure it did. We know that he wanted W&H back, from Angel. But does that mean he was evil? Or simply anti-Angel?

Wife has a theory that we are gonna see more of Eve. And that she will turn out to be "Daddy's Little Girl", the favorite child of a senior partner. Possibly even the kid that they swapped Conner for.

We'll see.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

WINTERFELL

Saturday, February 7, 2004 5:40 PM

so... locking that room full of lawyers in with darla and dru to kill was just jim dandy with you?

besides... when you become a vampire you first have to be drained of most of your blood.. then conciously make the descision to drink from the vampire who drained you.. so in a way.. you are making the choice to become the vampire.. that is why you are losing your soul and allowing the demon to enter.. so again.. you deserve it.

plus.. after you get your soul back.. you're still half demon and not a peaceful one.. you have to conciously make the decision every day not to drink human blood and kill things.. you see angel when they fed him just a tiny bit of connor's blood? he was getting seriously evil fast.. the point is.. if you really wanted to do some good, some would argue that you should stake yourself to kill the demon within.. as darla did when connor was born.

GTHING

Saturday, February 7, 2004 6:08 PM

I too loved “You’re Welcome”. I especially enjoyed its nods to Season 1 episodes. So what if Season 1 is my least favorite of Angel’s seasons, it was a real nice gesture anyway. My only complaints about Season 1 are it was uneven and it lacked the imagination we would see in later episodes. I still rate “Soul Purpose” and “Destiny” a little higher for this season’s episodes, but “You’re Welcome” ranks up there as well.

“You’re Welcome” is about where our heroes started and where they have gone. I love the idea of making Angel discover on his own why he became involved in this ultra-weird thing with Wolfram and Hart. He really wanted to make a difference. This was a card life dealt him, and it is his destiny to make the most of it.

Oh yeah, Harmony duking it out with Eve! That was cool too!

Excerpt from My Genre Geek Resume:
~huge Odyssey 5 fan (despite its cancellation)
~dangerously obsessed with BtVS and Angel
~former Andromeda fan

KALATHENA

Saturday, February 7, 2004 9:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Drakon:
Not so sure it did. We know that he wanted W&H back, from Angel. But does that mean he was evil? Or simply anti-Angel?

Good point. I HOPE that there is more complexity to his character than hell-bent-on-revenge. I wanted to believe he wasn't evil anymore, but I'm just not so sure.

Quote:
Wife has a theory that we are gonna see more of Eve. And that she will turn out to be "Daddy's Little Girl", the favorite child of a senior partner. Possibly even the kid that they swapped Conner for.

Interesting theory, but this is one I SERIOUSLY hope is not true. The only other time I've ever found a character as annoying as Eve was when they had the Lila & Gavin dynamic going on. I really just cringed every time I saw Lila during that time, and not in a good way. I feel about Eve the same way. It's not an "Oh no! What's she going to do *now*?" kind of cringe, but a "Gods, I hope this scene is short so I can pay attention again." kind of cringe. I don't find her funny; I don't find her scary; I don't find her intriguing. I just want her off the screen as quickly as possible so I can go back to being entertained.

I am *praying* we have seen the last of Eve. I won't hold my breath because there are a butt load of loose ends about her, but the less screen time she has the better I'll feel.

--Kala

KNIBBLET

Sunday, February 8, 2004 11:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Winterfell:
so... locking that room full of lawyers in with darla and dru to kill was just jim dandy with you?

Hell yeah. Dandy fine, ducky, yippee skippy and praise worthy!!

They deserved anything they got. They were W&H lawyers celebrating all the evil that W&H was. They deserved NOTHING more.

Just because you're human, doesn't mean you don't deserve to die at the hands of the evil you seek to let loose on the rest of the world.

WINTERFELL

Monday, February 9, 2004 12:24 AM

"Hell yeah. Dandy fine, ducky, yippee skippy and praise worthy!!

They deserved anything they got. They were W&H lawyers celebrating all the evil that W&H was. They deserved NOTHING more.

Just because you're human, doesn't mean you don't deserve to die at the hands of the evil you seek to let loose on the rest of the world."

it seemed that the rest of Angel Investigations wholeheartedly disagreed with (you and) Angel and called him on it.. I am going to have to go with my man Wes on this one and say, no.. it was wrong to do what he did.

you can't just murder all the worlds evil and wash yer hands and say.. ok done..

STEVE580

Monday, February 9, 2004 5:17 AM

Quote:
You can't just murder all the world's evil and wash yer hands and say.. ok done..

Uh...actually, I vote you can.
People are sentenced to die every day for crimes they commited, and I'm sure not one of them did anything as bad as the people in that room. Why was Wes upset with Angel? Because it wasn't a heroic thing to do, certainly. Perhaps it was even morally questionable, they waey some people consider the death penalty to be. But evil? Hell no.

So becoming a vampire was a bad choice for Angel; we all make bad choices. If Angel is evil, then I've never met anyone who isn't.

As far as the 'demon inside', that part is evil. But, generally, Angel keeps control of it.
Even so, do you really thing their world would be a better place if Angel staked himself? Is that the heroic thing to do?

And what of Spike - what evil did he do? As a vampire with a soul, he's done only good, and as a man, he was a decent guy, taking care of his elderly mother and what not. Hell, even for the latter part of being a souless demon, he fought for good. That's pretty signifigant, to me.
-Steve

WINTERFELL

Monday, February 9, 2004 10:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:
Uh...actually, I vote you can.
People are sentenced to die every day for crimes they commited, and I'm sure not one of them did anything as bad as the people in that room. Why was Wes upset with Angel? Because it wasn't a heroic thing to do, certainly. Perhaps it was even morally questionable, they waey some people consider the death penalty to be. But evil? Hell no.

So becoming a vampire was a bad choice for Angel; we all make bad choices. If Angel is evil, then I've never met anyone who isn't.

As far as the 'demon inside', that part is evil. But, generally, Angel keeps control of it.
Even so, do you really thing their world would be a better place if Angel staked himself? Is that the heroic thing to do?

And what of Spike - what evil did he do? As a vampire with a soul, he's done only good, and as a man, he was a decent guy, taking care of his elderly mother and what not. Hell, even for the latter part of being a souless demon, he fought for good. That's pretty signifigant, to me.
-Steve

you seem to be applying your oppinions selectivly to the characters you like best to manipulate your argument. If I go by what you have already stated, then the lawyers angel left to die weren't evil either. They simply made a few poor choices about who to work for.. that would mean angel made the "poor choice" of letting innocent people die.. in fact, lets take it further.. darla and dru can't be held responsible for the demon's "poor choice" of killing those folks either so they aren't evil either.. in fact.. I am really not sure what angel is doing fighting these innocent people who make "poor choices" every day either.. makes him seem evil.. but i suppose that's just another poor choice.. so we can't villify that either.. looks like evil really doesn't exist at all.. just normal folk making bad choices. end of series.

STEVE580

Monday, February 9, 2004 12:29 PM

The differance is, Angel's decision to become a vampire didn't directly affect anyone but himself, at least initially. I'm not sure if his reason for chosing this is discussed at any point, but I'd wager he made the decision because he wanted to be powerful and immortal, not because he wanted to do harm to people.

The other differance is that Angel's mistake is hundreds of years old. He's a completly differant man now; ashamed of his past, and seeking redemption. The lawyers in that room made no effort to change, and didn't mind doing all the horrible things they did every day.

You are right, though. Those lawyers did make bad choices; they made them often. And it's the choices that we make that determine who we are. Killing someone is a poor decision, and you are held accountable. Wheras Angel's decision to become a vampire is akin to deciding to drive a car while you're tired; if you fall asleep and kill someone, it isn't the same as if you hunt them down and beat them to death.
-Steve

WINTERFELL

Monday, February 9, 2004 1:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:
The differance is, Angel's decision to become a vampire didn't directly affect anyone but himself, at least initially. I'm not sure if his reason for chosing this is discussed at any point, but I'd wager he made the decision because he wanted to be powerful and immortal, not because he wanted to do harm to people.

The other differance is that Angel's mistake is hundreds of years old. He's a completly differant man now; ashamed of his past, and seeking redemption. The lawyers in that room made no effort to change, and didn't mind doing all the horrible things they did every day.

You are right, though. Those lawyers did make bad choices; they made them often. And it's the choices that we make that determine who we are. Killing someone is a poor decision, and you are held accountable. Wheras Angel's decision to become a vampire is akin to deciding to drive a car while you're tired; if you fall asleep and kill someone, it isn't the same as if you hunt them down and beat them to death.
-Steve

So, you are arguing intent then? Like.. because Angel didn't really know what he was getting into when he decided to become a vampire, then that makes him less guilty of the crimes that were committed? And because the lawyers actively intended to continue to make these poor decisions they are then MORE responsible for there "evil" than angel? I dunno.. it's a tuff sell but I can kinda see what you're saying.

I personally believe that even an alcoholic is as responsible for the deaths he causes in an automobile accident that he didn't intend to get into when drinking, as say, the DC sniper or someone who actively went out to kill people.

Anyway.. I guess this tangent has been gloriously traversed.. What my original point was = ...to me Wes just seems to get the raw end of the deal over and over again.. he seems like a generally good guy who.. (in the evidence I have seen) hasn't deserved it "as much" as angle and spike. Obviously you believe that the soul of spike and angel are innocent of the crimes committed throughout the ages in their guise. I am still not so sure about that.

If you believe the soul of angel is innocent.. I guess I might be able to buy that.. BUT.. Angel as he is now seems to be "a being which is comprised of the soul of the human he once was.. and the angelus demon sharing the same body".. I believe he is the sum of those parts and therefore responsible to some extent for both Angel and Angelus' crimes.

SPACEANGLER

Monday, February 9, 2004 3:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by twoblueeyes:
And SpaceAngler, if you live in the Richmond area, Angel is broadcast on Channel 12 (NBC) on Friday at 2:30 a.m. ! I'd prefer the WB's scheduled airing but at least it's shown here !

Actually, it didn't. Some show called "Everwood" came on. Anyone know where I can get it?

--------------------------------------------
Spike: We all have addictions, Angel. I believe yours is called 'Slutty the Vampire Slayer.'

TWOBLUEEYES

Monday, February 9, 2004 5:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAngler:
Quote:
Originally posted by twoblueeyes:
And SpaceAngler, if you live in the Richmond area, Angel is broadcast on Channel 12 (NBC) on Friday at 2:30 a.m. ! I'd prefer the WB's scheduled airing but at least it's shown here !

Actually, it didn't. Some show called "Everwood" came on. Anyone know where I can get it?

--------------------------------------------
Spike: We all have addictions, Angel. I believe yours is called 'Slutty the Vampire Slayer.'

Are you in the Richmond area ? Honestly, I saw it, got up 2:30 a.m., Friday ! Can I send you a tape ?

STEVE580

Monday, February 9, 2004 5:24 PM

I agree; Angel and Spike are partially responsable for the deaths because of tehir decision to become vampires. But they never conciously decided to kill anyone (though Angel allowed several to be killed through neglect).

As for Wes...I don't think I ever really forgave him for stealing Conner. You don't take a man's child like that. Isn't right. I know, he thought it was in danger, yadda yadda; but if your neighbor and his baby are living in a house that violates fire safty codes, you tell the neighbor, and get the problem fixed; you don't break into his house at night and steal the kid.

That was sweet when he shot his 'dad' like eight times, though.
-Steve

WINTERFELL

Monday, February 9, 2004 5:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:
I agree; Angel and Spike are partially responsable for the deaths because of tehir decision to become vampires. But they never conciously decided to kill anyone (though Angel allowed several to be killed through neglect).

As for Wes...I really forgave himfor stealing Conner. You don't take a man's child like that. Isn't right. I know, he thought it was in danger, yadda yadda; but if your neighbor and his baby are living in a house taht violates fire saftey codes, you tell the neighbor, and get the problem fixed; you don't break into his house at night and steal the kid.

That was sweet when he shot his 'dad' like eight times, though.
-Steve

Bwahaha..

yeah i was so thrilled when wes shot his "Dad" like that.. I agree wes made a bad call stealing connor like that.

However.. Angel used to make it a real big deal to let folks know that the most important thing you could do to be his friend is know when to put him down if it came to that... I think wes, having been privy to Angelus' nature in the past, was simply affaid that this was the time.. though.. i don't like his methods.. he should have told his friends.. not acted alone.. so.. yeah.. it was not cool of him

damn, i think we sucessfully finished that entirely-too-deep-for-this-board conversation. you have my respect for hanging in there

~~Robb of Winterfell~~
~ http://winterfell.org ~
High Fantasy Heavy Metal

STEVE580

Tuesday, February 10, 2004 4:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Winterfell:
Bwahaha.. yeah i was so thrilled when wes shot his "Dad" like that.. I agree wes made a bad call stealing connor like that.

However.. Angel used to make it a real big deal to let folks know that the most important thing you could do to be his friend is know when to put him down if it came to that... I think wes, having been privy to Angelus' nature in the past, was simply affaid that this was the time.. though.. i don't like his methods.. he should have told his friends.. not acted alone.. so.. yeah.. it was not cool of him

damn, i think we sucessfully finished that entirely-too-deep-for-this-board conversation. you have my respect for hanging in there

Lol, thanks

Yeah, I watched the dad-shooting scene like eight times, and showed it to several friends who'd never even heard of the show. It was just so cool!

Wasn't Wes also the one that had the slow-motion scene at the beginning of that ep -- where he takes both guns, and does a kind of Max Payne dive? Because that was nice, too.
-Steve

WINTERFELL

Tuesday, February 10, 2004 11:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:
Lol, thanks

Yeah, I watched the dad-shooting scene like eight times, and showed it to several friends who'd never even heard of the show. It was just so cool!

Wasn't Wes also the one that had the slow-motion scene at the beginning of that ep -- where he takes both guns, and does a kind of Max Payne dive? Because that was nice, too.
-Steve

hell yeah it was.. just another neat trait they gave that character as time went on.. his gun-slinging-superior-aim-thing!

STILLSHINY

Tuesday, February 10, 2004 5:57 PM

Ok, I was stuck in Dallas. At a boat show.

My wife recorded it. Sat down & watched it last night. Freaking Shiny Wow! I could not stop cheering & crying. This was so Awesome. I loved Season 1. Doyle! The hat totally goes to my wife who sat by my side and gave nothing away. I have so many fav moments I really can't list them.

“Firefly is the source of probably more joy & pain than anything I’ve done.” - Joss

GHOULMAN

Friday, February 13, 2004 3:25 PM

... I'm a big fan of Angel - but the girls are getting few and far between!

Can't tell ya how much I miss Lyla. mmmmm... Lyla.

SPACEANGLER

Friday, February 13, 2004 3:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by twoblueeyes:
Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAngler:
Quote:
Originally posted by twoblueeyes:
And SpaceAngler, if you live in the Richmond area, Angel is broadcast on Channel 12 (NBC) on Friday at 2:30 a.m. ! I'd prefer the WB's scheduled airing but at least it's shown here !

Actually, it didn't. Some show called "Everwood" came on. Anyone know where I can get it?

--------------------------------------------
Spike: We all have addictions, Angel. I believe yours is called 'Slutty the Vampire Slayer.'

Are you in the Richmond area ? Honestly, I saw it, got up 2:30 a.m., Friday ! Can I send you a tape ?

Oh! Gorramn it! I tuned in on FRIDAY NIGHT, so technically it was 2:30 AM SATURDAY MORNING! Whoops.

--------------------------------------------
Spike: We all have addictions, Angel. I believe yours is called 'Slutty the Vampire Slayer.'

*EDIT* Sure, i'd love a tape of it. If you live in Richmond, we can just agree to send it to one of the VCU buildings and I can pick it up there.

GOOG

Friday, February 13, 2004 3:54 PM

Best episode yet. And for this show, that says a LOT.