Things about Firefly that niggle you

POSTED BY: hughff
UPDATED: Thursday, October 19, 2006 17:39
VIEWED: 13494
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HUGHFF

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:16 AM

I'm not talking about the big things here, like Fux cancelling the series 3 1/2 seasons too soon or running them out of order etc. I'm talking about annoying little things that you wish could've been different.

For example, Tim Minear (I think) says on his commentary to "Out of Gas" that he wishes Mal could've pulled out a huge gun (VERA!) to menace the invading crew - why would they back down when facing that pea-shooter? Frankly, I'd've thought one of Jayne's grenades would've been reasonable to have stashed somewhere for Mal to grab and would've got them out of there just fine.

For me, though, it's even more pedantic - I am a teacher. I just hate it when anyone (and especially when it's one of the crew) call Serenity a boat. She's obviously a ship. She's large enough to carry a significant cargo. Inara's shuttle is a boat but Serenity is a ship.

What's your quibble?

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DONCOAT

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:20 AM

hughff, I don't have a problem with Serenity being called a boat. As you may know, submarines are referred to as boats rather than ships. And what could be more like a submarine than a spaceship? The only difference I see is that a submarine can surface (usually) while a spacecraft has no surface to go to (usually).

So just think of Serenity as a submarine (superatmosphere?) and your problem with 'boat' goes away.

I have a little niggle with the movie Serenity. In at least a couple places, Joss abandoned the "no sound in space" convention that was such an outstanding feature of Firefly. I know, a silent space battle might have been a bit strange, but with the exception of a few close concussions that would have rattled things about, silent would have been more realistic and, in my view, more dramatic. (Yes, I'm aware of the various fanwanks that some people use to justify the sounds in the battle scene, but they don't work for me.)

There are a couple other places where I felt the dialog was somewhat confusing due to some sloppy enunciation that could have been corrected by retakes or re-recording. For example, in Book's last scene Mal says "Shouldn't've been you. Alliance should have come after me." Except Nathan says the first word more like "Shoon't've", which sounds to my ear more like "Should've" rather than "Shouldn't've". Didn't make sense to me on first viewing. Another example: in the River escape scene, Dr. Matthias says "She has her lucid moments." To me it sounded like "She has illucid moments." Opposite meaning!

Finally, in the same sequence, Simon says to River: "Find a..." as River climbs the wall to hide on the ceiling. Clearly the line is meant to have continued something like "Find a place to hide," but Sean cuts the line short. Unfortunately, due to the timing of River's movement, there's no reason for him to stop where he does. It's an obvious case where the line was written to be cut off after "Find a...", and Sean cut it off there even though it should have gone further. The result is awkward, to say the least. It took me right out of the scene.

Compare this with the script for the pilot episode, where Jayne has one of those incomplete lines (he's challenging Mal to a fight). Adam actually wrote in his script what the full line was intended to be, which meant that he could continue on if Nathan didn't interrupt at exactly the right point. The result is a perfectly smooth delivery with no jarring cutoff. (As it happens, Adam did cut the line off pretty much as written, but the point is he was able to deliver the line in a very natural way, not like a line of a script that never had an ending.)

These comments should not be construed as reducing my love and appreciation for the 'Verse in any way! But the little details matter. Joss and the cast most often get them right. Firefly/Serenity has so few of these glitches that you're rarely jarred out of the story, which makes the few exceptions even more regrettable.

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I'm pointin' right at it!

PHOENIXROSE

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:31 AM

See, I'm almost positive that Sean actually says "Find a hi-" which I always took to be continuing as "hiding place" but River was already moving and he a) knew he didn't need to finish and b) was amazed to see her climb right up a wall.
I could ramble on about all the little things that kinda bug me, but it would go on for pages and as I'm at work and can't save or think things out clearly, I won't go into it all.

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A good friend who points out mistakes and imperfections and rebukes evil is to be respected as if he reveals a secret of hidden treasure. - Gautama Siddharta

DONCOAT

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
A good friend who points out mistakes and imperfections and rebukes evil is to be respected as if he reveals a secret of hidden treasure. - Gautama Siddharta

Heh. That's me, the ol' evil rebuker himself...

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I'm pointin' right at it!

RABIT

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
I have a little niggle with the movie Serenity. In at least a couple places, Joss abandoned the "no sound in space" convention that was such an outstanding feature of Firefly. I know, a silent space battle might have been a bit strange, but with the exception of a few close concussions that would have rattled things about, silent would have been more realistic and, in my view, more dramatic. (Yes, I'm aware of the various fanwanks that some people use to justify the sounds in the battle scene, but they don't work for me.)

Uh, if you're refering to the fact that the battle between the Alliance and the Reavers (I'm assuming I'm not spoiling anyone here!

) occurred within the atmosphere of Mr. Universe's world, these aren't fan justifications - these are as written and stated on a number of occassions by Joss. Just an FYI...

Rabit

CANTER

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 5:17 PM

I don't know if you can really call it a niggle...

Simon states right through the Firefly episodes that he doesn't know what the Alliance did to River, so he doesn't know where to start treating her, and he only found out in Ariel that they cut into her brain.

But "Serenity" starts in the Lab with a doctor explaining to Simon exactly how the process worked... and that the "neuron stripping" causes her psychotic behaviour.

He states in "Objects in Space" that he cannot understand why River should know anything about firearms, but in the opening sequence of Serenity he is informed that "she is ideally suited for military deployment...even with the side-effects".

He also explains in the pilot (Serenity) that he developed contacts to smuggle River out of the academy in cryo, but in the movie he breaks her out himself.

I can reconcile the contradictions in my mind, but maybe I misunderstood some scenes.

Burn the land and boil the sea...

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 5:22 PM

It's the stupidest of stupid little things to get uppity about but... well, in the commentary about 'Shindig', the costume director mentioned that the leather necklace around Zoe's neck symbolises her marraige bond to Wash. I *love* that idea. It makes so much sense in a hostile corner of the 'verse where metal can be hard to come by and thieves are everywhere that something simple would be used in place of wedding rings.

The only problem is... Zoe's wearing it in the flashbacks in 'Out of Gas'! Every time I see that, it bugs me. *sigh*

I know... I know... concentrate on the brilliance of the writing and the wonderful acting, not the necklace...

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INDIGOSTARBLASTER

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 5:59 PM

I just read in Firefly: The Official Visual Companion, Vol. 1 that Gina Torres thinks that Zoe's necklace is made up of her old military bootlaces.

It's interesting to think that maybe Zoe and Wash have no symbols of their marriage -- it's just a state of being for them, one which requires no reminders.

Indigo S.

CYBERSNARK

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:05 PM

The camera angle on that certain death scene.

Right. Up. The nose.

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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

DONCOAT

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
It's the stupidest of stupid little things to get uppity about but... well, in the commentary about 'Shindig', the costume director mentioned that the leather necklace around Zoe's neck symbolises her marraige bond to Wash. I *love* that idea. It makes so much sense in a hostile corner of the 'verse where metal can be hard to come by and thieves are everywhere that something simple would be used in place of wedding rings.

The only problem is... Zoe's wearing it in the flashbacks in 'Out of Gas'! Every time I see that, it bugs me. *sigh*

I know... I know... concentrate on the brilliance of the writing and the wonderful acting, not the necklace...

DTH, perhaps I can provide a fanwank to help you out of your dilemma. Notice: what follows is only a suggestion, not an attempt to define canon.

Zoe made the necklace from her bootlaces as suggested above, and that's all it meant at first (as if that weren't enough).

When she and Wash fell in love, it all happened very suddenly and surprised them both. They were on the corner of No and Where at the time so they couldn't buy any rings or other tokens. So Zoe thought to take her necklace and have the marriage official* consecrate that as her token.

Voila, no problem -- the necklace was there all along. Only its meaning changed at the time they were wed.

Now, who'd like to speculate on what Wash's token was?

* I'm not thinking of Mal here, since we know he didn't approve the marriage, nor Book (who wasn't in the picture yet), but some local magistrate or justice of the peace. Wash and Zoe "ran off" to get married!

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I'm pointin' right at it!

DONCOAT

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 7:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Rabit:
Uh, if you're refering to the fact that the battle between the Alliance and the Reavers (I'm assuming I'm not spoiling anyone here! ) occurred within the atmosphere of Mr. Universe's world, these aren't fan justifications - these are as written and stated on a number of occassions by Joss. Just an FYI...

Yes, that's exactly what I'm referring to, and you just described the fanwank that's usually used to justify it. (If Joss has sanctified this explanation, I was unaware of that.)

Unfortunately, it doesn't work for me... or at least, it doesn't match up with the visuals we see during the battle. It's quite clear that the battle takes place in space, inside the "ion cloud" but not in the atmosphere. The sky is black, the Mr. Universe planetoid is far below us, and its horizon clearly shows the edge of the atmosphere much as Earth's is visible from Earth orbit.

Only after the Reaver ship follows them down do we enter the atmosphere -- sometime between the main battle and the EMP discharge.

Maybe the problem is that Joss intended the battle to be in atmo but Zoic didn't do it right. Or maybe Joss just liked having the big booms and is trying to justify it post hoc. Either way, I find it an unfortunate departure from the excellent precedent set in the series.

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I'm pointin' right at it!

ECGORDON

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 7:11 PM

The major niggle I have about the series concerns the ending to "Ariel," and the conceit the writers seemed to have to get us to believe no one else on the ship could possibly have overheard Mal chastising Jayne in the airlock.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

REDLAVA

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 7:36 PM

I try not to dwell on the small things. You can't iron out every single possible physics breaking scenario from a TV show or movie. Every movie has that one scene where you go, "that can't happen." You just have to suspend your disbelief a little.

I just wanted to chime in with my opinion about the space battle in Serenity. The Ion cloud around Mr. Universe's planet is in space or at least the VERY upper atmosphere. So techinally there would be no sound without air. The moments in Firefly where there was dead silence were good choices to have them, very dramatic and not normal in Sci-Fi. But when you come to the climax of your movie and an epic space battle between good and evil you need those sound effects to highten "the thrill ride" so to speak. What would it be like without the explosions and such? Somebody with much better A/V knowhow will have to try it. But in my opinion it would lack something.

Everybody always has the advantage over us, but that's what makes us special...and Browncoats.

HUGHFF

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 7:52 PM

1. I'm not that concerned when things are against the laws of physics so long as I can ignore them when watching - suspension of disbelief and all that. eg I teach The Matrix to my 6th form and i explain how the people farming "combined with a form of cold fusion" of the machines is far less efficient than just using the cold fusion asa direct source of energy. (My first degree is in ecology.)

2. Justifying Serenity as a boat by comparing it with a submarine is clearly fanwank (nothing personal, DC). If that's so, you shouldn't call her a ship. She's a ship - she has two lifeboats/shuttles.

3. Inconsistencies between the BDM and the wonderful, wonderful series are all forced because of the need to tell a complete story for newbies who aren't aware of the on-going narrative. Sadly, this necessity is what makes the BDM inferior. I can live with them - though I agree the noisy space battle is particularly disappointing. (Actually, I don't like the BDM half as much.)

www.cpfc.org - my life
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DESKTOPHIPPIE

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 8:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
The major niggle I have about the series concerns the ending to "Ariel," and the conceit the writers seemed to have to get us to believe no one else on the ship could possibly have overheard Mal chastising Jayne in the airlock.

Now I have this image of Wash sitting all alone in the cockpit, listening to the conversation, his face pale as milk and mumbling "Oh God! Oh God! He's gonna kill him! Oh God!"

Dammit! Now I'm going to giggle every time I see that scene!

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RIMGIRL

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 8:11 PM

I've said it before, I don't like how easily Zoe calls Mal "Sir". She was Corporal to his Sargent. It wouldn't trip off her lips.

CRUITHNE3753

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 8:23 PM

"Tell us about the part where Jayne gets knocked out by a ninety pound girl, 'cause that's not getting old!"

Seeing as it's the future, this should be:-

"Tell us about the part where Jayne gets knocked out by a forty kilo girl, 'cause that's not getting old!"

CHOO1701

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 8:40 PM

Quote:
2. Justifying Serenity as a boat by comparing it with a submarine is clearly fanwank (nothing personal, DC). If that's so, you shouldn't call her a ship. She's a ship - she has two lifeboats/shuttles.

i think your getting a bit too in depth there. (sorry).

Joss has proved a valed piont about language, and how it could chamge in the next half millenia or so (Shiny, Humped, Gorram, Ruttin').

Perhaps "boat" is just a new way of saying "ship". (although Mal does say "Wash -- Where the hell is my spaceship!?" in The Message)

its just another way of saying "ship", like in todays terms, some people call aircraft carriers "boats".

if you understood that, please say

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TRAIN!!!

MINK

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:06 PM

Another problem with the BDM intro: In "Jaynestown", Simon is asked to roleplay a businessman looking for mud, and he turns into a bumbling idiot who couldn't possibly do a worse job. In the BDM, he roleplays a high ranking military officer with totally self-assured arrogance - which took place earlier, of course.
It don't hang together.

The Reavers are of course problematic, but that's been discussed plenty and is more than a niggle. See "28 Days Later" for comparison.

"When I write my memoirs, that sh!t'll be in there, guaranteed."

HUGHFF

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:18 PM

I don't think the concept of semantic shift (change in the meaning of words) necessarily applies - though obviously it could. However, i think it more likely that this is simply a layperson not getting the language right. Quite a few people who have never had anything to do with the sea make no distinction between boat and ship - but you go down to the docks and use those terms inaccurately and you will cause considerable offense. I would assume that the crew of Serenity would know enough to make that distinction but they don't, they use boat and ship interchangably.

www.cpfc.org - my life
www.nbhs.school.nz - my work

DONCOAT

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by hughff:
1. I'm not that concerned when things are against the laws of physics so long as I can ignore them when watching - suspension of disbelief and all that. eg I teach The Matrix to my 6th form and i explain how the people farming "combined with a form of cold fusion" of the machines is far less efficient than just using the cold fusion asa direct source of energy. (My first degree is in ecology.)

2. Justifying Serenity as a boat by comparing it with a submarine is clearly fanwank (nothing personal, DC). If that's so, you shouldn't call her a ship. She's a ship - she has two lifeboats/shuttles.

3. Inconsistencies between the BDM and the wonderful, wonderful series are all forced because of the need to tell a complete story for newbies who aren't aware of the on-going narrative. Sadly, this necessity is what makes the BDM inferior. I can live with them - though I agree the noisy space battle is particularly disappointing. (Actually, I don't like the BDM half as much.)

To quote somebody or other, I don't disagree on any particular point. I fully understand and accept your item 3, f'rinstance, though I do like the movie more than half as much as the series.

On point 2, though, I do disagree a little (OK, so I lied there a second ago). Calling Serenity a boat just doesn't bother me, mostly because of the submarine analogy but also because it's a common synonym in informal usage. Our BDHes are anything but formal!

And besides, some submarines (real life as well as fictional) have carried minisubs, and most carry at least inflatables. Hey, didn't you ever watch "Voyage To the Bottom of the Sea"?

Plus, my sailboat has a dinghy, but that sure doesn't make her a ship. (And many ships, especially warships, do not carry lifeboats; I don't see the relevance of that argument).

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I'm pointin' right at it!

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:31 PM

I don't want to turn this into an argument or anything since a) you're entitled to your opinion and b) well, technically you're right! But... I kinda like it when the crew call Serenity a boat! It's almost like a pet term for her, like they're acknowledging that she's a little bucket of rust that's only holds together because Kaylee loves her so. I think it fits neatly with Serenity herself.

Again, don't want to gang up on you. And I fully appreciate the fact that you're right in what you've said!

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SERYN

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by hughff:
2. Justifying Serenity as a boat by comparing it with a submarine is clearly fanwank (nothing personal, DC). If that's so, you shouldn't call her a ship. She's a ship - she has two lifeboats/shuttles.

That I can remember off the top of my head, the occaisions when they refer to Serenity as a boat, i believe its used affectionatly - much the same way as I call my dads car the wagon (its a people carrier, not a bit of canvas in sight) and my friend calls her boat 'the tub'.

tell me, do you always use the exact correct term for inanimate objects? Or more importantly, do any of the crew look like sticklers for correct terminology?

Actually, i can see someone trying to point out to Mal that Serenity is a ship and being pegged out on her nose.

With regards to the sound in space thing - Joss is a film director, not a scientist - he's not obliged to keep absolutely to the facts just to keep a small section of his audience happy. His decisions are always tempered with what is aesthetically pleasing and balanced. Too much or too little sound is counterproductive to story telling.

so cut him some slack!

My one niggle with the film is a small amount of unclear blocking - in that introductory scene in Serenity, when Mal leaves the bridge and talks to Jayne about grenades, then see's Zoe and tells her to talk to her husband, so she stop next to Jayne and says something like 'we're robbing the place, not occupying it' - I thought (not having seen the series at that point) that she was married to him - then was faintly alarmed that the short geeky bloke was cuckolding the monkeyman with all the weapons.

actually no, that was amusing, i'm not going to niggle about that.

Edit: Aw, ok, DTH and Doncoat beat me to the pet name thing.
Great minds think alike!

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ASORTAFAIRYTALE

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Canter:
I don't know if you can really call it a niggle...

Simon states right through the Firefly episodes that he doesn't know what the Alliance did to River, so he doesn't know where to start treating her, and he only found out in Ariel that they cut into her brain.

But "Serenity" starts in the Lab with a doctor explaining to Simon exactly how the process worked... and that the "neuron stripping" causes her psychotic behaviour.

He states in "Objects in Space" that he cannot understand why River should know anything about firearms, but in the opening sequence of Serenity he is informed that "she is ideally suited for military deployment...even with the side-effects".

He also explains in the pilot (Serenity) that he developed contacts to smuggle River out of the academy in cryo, but in the movie he breaks her out himself.

I can reconcile the contradictions in my mind, but maybe I misunderstood some scenes.

This always kinda bothered me too. I never really knew why Joss did that, but I just figured that it was because he would have to explain the whole thing over for the people who hadn't seen Firefly otherwise. Or maybe he just wanted to make Simon seem cooler...

------

We're not telling people what to think, we're just trying to show them how.

USMCHELLRAISER

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RimGirl:
I've said it before, I don't like how easily Zoe calls Mal "Sir". She was Corporal to his Sargent. It wouldn't trip off her lips.

For the record, I call any senior enlisted I respect as a person "Sir" when I can sneak it in as a sign of respect and to remind both of us that personal respect and professional respect of rank are two different but not necessarily exclusive things. I don't say it in the crisp, formal military way, more like "Yessir" in between the usual laundry list of questions/demands that some of them put on me.

If I can "Sir" a 2nd Lt., and a civilian (which I of course, do), then I can throw a "Sir" here and there into a conversation with a man who has been faithfully serving the Marine Corps for like two decades.

Also, the Captain of any sailing vessel is regarded and addressed with respect- even if it is a civilain Egyptian tanker that comes into a gulf port harbor during a port lock-down and a VBSS team is the one talking to him.

And lastly, if you are in a volunteer rebel army to fight against the government when they start trying to take planets, I'm not sure that they went through military bootcamp or basic training with the usual lessons on military customs and courtesies. If I had to throw a rag-tag multi-planetary joint task force together to fight an overwhelming enemy, I'm pretty sure anyone with previous combat experience would become an officer. It would get worse when I had to replace the officer ranks with enlisted replacements to fill in "Combat-Related Sudden Occupational Vacancies". I'm not sure that their was an educational (ie-College) requirement to beceome an officer in the "Rebel Volunteer army.

I had a Ssgt. who used to respond "YesSir!" whenever he was called in an authoritative voice if he hadn't figured out who it was in the second between him being beckoned and himm responding.

Yoost a perspinion,
Ryan

"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

DONCOAT

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by asortafairytale:
[Re: Simon's personal rescue of River] This always kinda bothered me too. I never really knew why Joss did that, but I just figured that it was because he would have to explain the whole thing over for the people who hadn't seen Firefly otherwise. Or maybe he just wanted to make Simon seem cooler...

Joss has stated in interviews that he originally tried to write the movie so that Simon hired people to get her out, but it was just too slow and complex for non-Browncoats to follow. So he gave him the hero role.

I'm willing to go with the theory that Simon lied about this to the crew in the series pilot, since at that point he didn't know them well enough to fully trust them. He just told them what he needed to.

The rest of the apparent inconsistencies can be explained by Simon not fully understanding what Matthias meant by such terms as "neural stripping" until he saw the scans in Ariel, and even then not knowing the implications. We can't assume Simon had knowledge of all the experimental methods that Matthias and Co. were using on River -- presumably those methods would be as secret as the Academy itself. So he really was baffled by the effects he saw in River's brain.

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I'm pointin' right at it!

USMCHELLRAISER

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Choo1701:
Quote:
2. Justifying Serenity as a boat[edit] She's a ship - she has two lifeboats/shuttles.

i think your getting a bit too in depth there. (sorry).

Joss has proved a valed piont about language, and how it could chamge in the next half millenia or so (Shiny, Humped, Gorram, Ruttin').

The first time someone made a Marine call the regular floor "the deck", a stariway in a building(not a ship!) a "ladderwell", and a wall in another or the same building a "bulkhead", I'm sure staring and blinking occured. Nowadays however, we're used to it (not that everyone does it).

I imagine the language would change at least a lot in 500 years, and something like forgetting that there's a difference between what a boat and a ship is something that might be forgotten in however long it took for the descendants of the original colonists from "Earth-that-was" to get to where they ended up, tcha-think? Maybe no, maybe so...

"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

HUGHFF

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:07 PM

I know I'm prolongoing a debate but all this "they aren't formal" stuff is absolute nonsense. As I indicated in an earlier post, go to a port and misuse those words. People whose idea of formality extends to saying shit instead of f***ing shit will use those very phrases on you. Been there, seen it - trust me. IMO, Mal would plant someone for calling his ship a boat but never for the other way around. I't doesn't sit right with me and never can.

Edit: No swear filter - interesting. Editted for formality!

www.cpfc.org - my life
www.nbhs.school.nz - my work

USMCHELLRAISER

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Canter:
I don't know if you can really call it a niggle...

Simon states right through the Firefly episodes that he doesn't know what the Alliance did to River, so he doesn't know where to start treating her, and he only found out in Ariel that they cut into her brain.

But "Serenity" starts in the Lab with a doctor explaining to Simon exactly how the process worked... and that the "neuron stripping" causes her psychotic behaviour.

He states in "Objects in Space" that he cannot understand why River should know anything about firearms, but in the opening sequence of Serenity he is informed that "she is ideally suited for military deployment...even with the side-effects".

I could walk up to a trauma surgeon and start talking about "neural-stripping" and if he was in a position or place where his ego/image would look bad (or if he decided to just nod and look it up later, or if he didn't care), I'm pretty convinced I might be able to get away with him not being sure what it was, or even if the term existed. The trauma doctor (Medical Officer) who referred my leg injury out to a civilian podiatry specialist didn't know what "Osteo-Chondritis Dessicans" meant, but I know for a fact that he can stabilize someone missing a limb.

Man, I wish I could walk...

"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

HUGHFF

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:30 PM

Sounds like you have a helluva story to tell, USMC.

www.cpfc.org - my life
www.nbhs.school.nz - my work

MINIME

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:44 PM

On a completely different tack...

Unforuntately (mostly for my patients) I'm a doctor. So the things that bug me are:
Simon stitches VERY slowly for a top surgeon... and still leaves quite a scar.
Hydrozapam (mentioned in the list of meds Simon has on board) ought to be a very cheap cousin of Valium, going by the name...
Also, 120 isn't tachy. And even if it was, Atropine would make you more tachy, not less.
We won't start on cardiac infusors...

Any chance that for the myriad sequels (sequelae?) they'd want to hire a medical advisor?

Minime

ECGORDON

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
The major niggle I have about the series concerns the ending to "Ariel," and the conceit the writers seemed to have to get us to believe no one else on the ship could possibly have overheard Mal chastising Jayne in the airlock.

Now I have this image of Wash sitting all alone in the cockpit, listening to the conversation, his face pale as milk and mumbling "Oh God! Oh God! He's gonna kill him! Oh God!"

Dammit! Now I'm going to giggle every time I see that scene!

I should also have mentioned that it doesn't make sense that there would not be some type of warning buzzer on the bridge because of the airlock being open as they were about to leave atmo.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

USMCHELLRAISER

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by minime:
On a completely different tack...

Any chance that for the myriad sequels (sequelae?) they'd want to hire a medical advisor?

Minime

I hope so, and that when they hire you, you let me on the set.

And, that you could tell them about this guy who knows a bunch about firearms, small-unit tactics, Operation/Intelligence Briefings (I am not S-2/S-3 so if anyone from counter-intel is calling someone because I gave that away they can just sit back and chill, k?), actual urban combat and (AND!) is a Martial Arts/Knife fighting instructor. Hehhhh? Hehhhhhhhh??

Shoot, I even have awesome references...

"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

MINIME

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:45 PM

Quote:

And, that you could tell them about this guy who knows a bunch about firearms, small-unit tactics, Operation/Intelligence Briefings (I am not S-2/S-3 so if anyone from counter-intel is calling someone because I gave that away they can just sit back and chill, k?), actual urban combat and (AND!) is a Martial Arts/Knife fighting instructor. Hehhhh? Hehhhhhhhh??

Shoot, I even have awesome references...

"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

Unfortunately, I only understand about half of that paragraph - but in the highly unlikely but equally desirable event of me being asked to consult on the next 12 movies, I shall put in a good word for you! When your technical expertise is called upon in writing Jayne's next adventure, please mention briefly that you know a doctor who has worked in the earthly 'black'...

Regards,
Minime

YINYANG

Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RimGirl:
I've said it before, I don't like how easily Zoe calls Mal "Sir". She was Corporal to his Sargent. It wouldn't trip off her lips.

You've probably heard this, but Zoe was career military, right? So, anyone above her in rank would be a sir. And, whoever said something about Mal being the captain, and that being another good reason, deserves a sticker.

EDIT: To comment about the whole "niggle" (which is what, now?) thing, I think it's counter-productive, and leaves people walking away with more questions, not less. Now, really big issues are understandable, especially if they jerk the viewer from their viewing experience and back into the real world, but...

Then again, there are different issues that could jerk different people from their suspended disbelief. So, I guess I should just be quiet, now.

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

Trouble-Maker in the House!

http://richlabonte.net/tvvote

USMCHELLRAISER

Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:40 AM

Absolutely, without a doubt!

"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

NCBROWNCOAT

Wednesday, October 18, 2006 3:09 AM

My niggle is a minor one-I absolutely hate Mal's suspenders in the BDM. Too rubbery, high tech and way uncomfortable looking.

The ones used in the BDS looked a lot more comfortable and utilitarian, not to mention more in character for Mal.I read somewhere that they were actual WWII era suspenders and are very sexy.

As a former NCO and ex-spouse of a former NCO, Zoe's use of Sir makes sense. It's a sign of respect for the position Mal holds as Captain of the ship. He has the ultimate responsibility for Serenity and her crew.

REGINAROADIE

Wednesday, October 18, 2006 4:26 AM

As much as I love the whole Simon/Kaylee budding relationship thing, the one thing that bugged me a bit about Kaylee was how overly sensitive she was to wheever Simon screwed up. Looking at some of the stuff he said, yeah it was hurtful, but Simon is not a malicious person whatsoever. The comments he made were either out of frustration or social awkwardness, and yet time and time again he's chastized for said comments.

Now, I havn't been in a whole lot of relationships (I can count the number of girlfriends I've had on one hand), but I'm under the impression that a meaningful relationship involves a certain amount of adaptability on both ends. That one needs to be considerate of the other's sensitivity on specific issues, etc. In the series, but mostly in the volumes of fanfics, you get the sense that it's really Simon doing all the adapting. That he's bending over backwards to be a whole new person for Kaylee, which she remains the same person. I just think that if the show had lasted longer, and Kaylee remained the same person over time while Simon kept bending over backwards to attain her standards, that the relationship might have soured and become one sided because of her inability to change.

That why in my stories, you can see a definite change in Kaylee. That she doesn't immediately turn around and cry when Simon makes a dumb remark, but actually confronts him about it with some common sense. And later on in YOU CAN'T GO HOME AGAIN, she will make a mature decision regarding her place on Serenity which will seem like blasphemy to fans, but in actuality be something that I think Kaylee would have come to eventually.

That, as well as the various episode placements. Some people prefer the missing three eps to go after Objects in Space, but I think the episode order on the DVD's is the official one, or at least the one I prefer.

**************************************************
"I have no reason to believe you and every reason not to."
"Why's that?"
"You work in television."

STUDIO 60 ON THE SUNSET STRIP

HUGHFF

Wednesday, October 18, 2006 6:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:
"niggle" (which is what, now?)

Didn't note this earlier.

Means a small annoyance - from the same etymology as miggardly meaning small/cheap (eg a niggardly tip) probably of Scandinavian origin and not to be confused with a racist term that starts with the same sound but is derived from the Latin Negri meaning black.

Niggle is not an uncommon word in NZ, especially to describe some thing that won't go away. eg I have a niggly knee injury (a tiny meniscus tear) which causes me pain after every football match.

www.cpfc.org - my life
www.nbhs.school.nz - my work

MOOSE

Wednesday, October 18, 2006 7:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by hughff:
I know I'm prolongoing a debate but all this "they aren't formal" stuff is absolute nonsense. As I indicated in an earlier post, go to a port and misuse those words.

I've lived in a port town most of my life and know quite a few sailors (military and civilian). More often than not, they've told me not to refer to their vessel (from a fishingtrawler to an aircraft carrier) as a ship, it's a "boat". Granted most of the times this has happened, the sailor was quite proud of it, so I take it as a sign of affection. Hearing Serenity called a boat, especially by crew, doesn't bug me at all.

The thing that niggles me is that the report that the Operative pulls up in the BDM has Mal as a Captain during the war. Especially since the deleted scene on the DVD has him correctly as a Sergeant.

RIMGIRL

Wednesday, October 18, 2006 2:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RimGirl:
I've said it before, I don't like how easily Zoe calls Mal "Sir". She was Corporal to his Sargent. It wouldn't trip off her lips.

I'm not in the military, never have been. I just contrast it with how Tracey keeps calling him Sarg and every boot camp film where the Sargent is screaming, "I work for a living!" I think when he became Captain, she'd transition to calling him Captain like Kaylee does. Their's is a special, close relationship and it always feels like someone calling their brother sir.

But in the end, its my niggle. You aren't niggled, that's fine.

TEACHDAIRE

Wednesday, October 18, 2006 2:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RimGirl:
I've said it before, I don't like how easily Zoe calls Mal "Sir". She was Corporal to his Sargent. It wouldn't trip off her lips.

This is true. No soldier, even a corporal would ever call a sergeant "sir" if they wanted to live. Officers are "sir", whereas a sergeant earns his/her pay.

The correct term to use when adressing a sergeant is "Sergeant". No self rerspecting NCO wouls accept otherwise.

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For every battle honour, a thousand heroes die along, unremembered and unsung...

USMCHELLRAISER

Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RimGirl:
Quote:
Originally posted by RimGirl:
I've said it before, I don't like how easily Zoe calls Mal "Sir". She was Corporal to his Sargent. It wouldn't trip off her lips.

But in the end, its my niggle. You aren't niggled, that's fine.

Does she ever call Mal "Sir" in a flashback before the chronological beginning of the show?

If not, she might use the term for Wash's sake.

If I was still in contact with an ex, or some pretty girl I knew from before my reltaionship with my girlfriend, I might keep the name of my ex/"random pretty girl" formal to reinforce that my girlfriend never has anything to wonder about.

Now I have to re-watch the series and see...

"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

USMCHELLRAISER

Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Teachdaire:
Quote:
Originally posted by RimGirl:
I've said it before, I don't like how easily Zoe calls Mal "Sir". She was Corporal to his Sargent. It wouldn't trip off her lips.

This is true. No soldier, even a corporal would ever call a sergeant "sir" if they wanted to live. Officers are "sir", whereas a sergeant earns his/her pay.

The correct term to use when adressing a sergeant is "Sergeant". No self rerspecting NCO wouls accept otherwise.
-------------------------------------------------
For every battle honour, a thousand heroes die along, unremembered and unsung...

Sure, kind of true, I still wonder what kind of procedure was required for battle-field promotion, or even, rank in the Volunteer Browncoat Army...

Every Warrant Officer in the Marine Corps is a former "Sargent" who is now called "Sir". Also, Drill Instructors are called "Sir" and are Sargents-Gunnery Sargent in rank.

I don't think that something has to be technically incorrect to be a niggle, does it? Like Rimgirl said, it can just be something that rubs someone improperly(?) I didn't read the definition.

"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

GUYWHOWANTSAFIREFLYOFHISOWN

Thursday, October 19, 2006 4:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cruithne3753:
"Tell us about the part where Jayne gets knocked out by a ninety pound girl, 'cause that's not getting old!"

Seeing as it's the future, this should be:-

"Tell us about the part where Jayne gets knocked out by a forty kilo girl, 'cause that's not getting old!"

I think that somewhere on the trip from Earth-That-Was they stopped using metric, because in the pilot ep, when Mal is giving Patience directions he says "... Then head East half a mile, you'll see where it's been dug" not "...Then head East for 1 klick, you'll see where it's been dug"

What do you make of the nylon dot cardigan and plastic mule rest?

ROCKYSOAP

Thursday, October 19, 2006 7:11 AM

I'm not coming up with any Firefly niggles (great word!) off the top of my head, but Serenity as a whole niggled me quite a bit. I felt that the characters weren't the same as they were in the show. As a writer, I mostly understand why the changes were made, but I still don't like it. I especially don't like the fact that River seems to lose that child-like quality that makes me love her so much.

TEACHDAIRE

Thursday, October 19, 2006 8:10 AM

This may be due to the simple fact that Joss, and as far as I'm aware, the writers, are American, as was the initial audience (F*x is an American network).

As far as I know, the majority of the American citizenry haven't embraced the nightmare of the metric system after a lifetime of the Imperial system.

-------------------------------------------------
For every battle honour, a thousand heroes die along, unremembered and unsung...

SAB39

Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:39 PM

My BDM niggle is what they did to the interior of Serenity herself. The proportions of the cargo bay are all off and there's that big metal shiny circular thing taking up most of one wall for no apparent reason. The engine looks all wrong. But the *biggest* niggle of all is when Mal opens the stairway to his bunk, and a flourescent blue light comes on and the door-thing opens with a soft hiss instead of a clunk. Serenity's supposed to be lived-in, a little run down, a little spartan, but homey. That moment always makes me fume a little. This is not the ruttin' Enterprise D, people!

TEACHDAIRE

Thursday, October 19, 2006 4:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sab39:
My BDM niggle is what they did to the interior of Serenity herself. The proportions of the cargo bay are all off and there's that big metal shiny circular thing taking up most of one wall for no apparent reason. The engine looks all wrong. But the *biggest* niggle of all is when Mal opens the stairway to his bunk, and a flourescent blue light comes on and the door-thing opens with a soft hiss instead of a clunk. Serenity's supposed to be lived-in, a little run down, a little spartan, but homey. That moment always makes me fume a little. This is not the ruttin' Enterprise D, people!

Actually, the proportions of the cargo bay seem about right (Serenity is approximately the length of a 747, and a bit taller as well). As for the thing with Mal's bunk, ask yourself this question, do you make sure the light in your bedroom is working? It's a naturally dark space, and a fall could hurt. Also, it makes sense that doors that swing open like that as opposed to sliding like the majority of the other doors on board, would have a pneumatic buffer system to keep the shut when the ship goes through any kind of lateral or roll movements.

-------------------------------------------------
For every battle honour, a thousand heroes die along, unremembered and unsung...

ZZETTA13

Thursday, October 19, 2006 4:42 PM

Goodmorning fellow browncoats. I have just arrived home after working the graveyard shift so I'm a little beat. I do however think this is a really interesting thread so I want to throw my 2 cents in before I retire to my bunk. first of all everyone has their own opinion and I respect that.If we feel that something just isn't right then that's how we feel. Like Zoey said "It just bothers me."

The "Ship"-"Boat" issue doesn't really bother me any. I look at it like this. Calling Serenity a boat inplace of ship at times only makes me feel that the crew (or Mal) are trying to show that the vessel Serenity, is but a small thing in comparison to the huge universe or even the power of the alliance. They view themselves as small and so this little vehicle they tool around the verse in is small also. Like a tiny boat.

The "space battle" with all the sound I hadn't really thought of so it didn't really bother me either.

Zoey addressing Mal as "sir" is just her way of showing respect and is a reminder of the history between herself and Malcolm. Wash calls Malcolm "sir" as well but we all know where he's coming from....." Nothing... Brilliant plan sir I think we'll all be saved!!"

One thing that I think should have played out differently was the fight between Mal and the operative. IMO the operative was turned way to quickly. How could he tell the little video Mal played to the verse wasn't a fake? Nope,the only way I think that an individual of his rank and training would stop their mission would be in the death of Serenity and her crew or the death of himself.

Z

MAVOURNEEN

Thursday, October 19, 2006 4:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by hughff:

What's your quibble?

In the BDM, the makeup and hair are perfect. Too perfect. Next time you see Serenity, look at Gina Torres' hair - every ringlet in place in every scene. Perfect makeup, and a fair amount of it. Its soooo not Zoe.

Nathan had so much rougue on in some scenes I had a hard time focusing. He reminded me of a kewpie doll.

Grrr Arg. I get really irritated when I think about this.

Think about Gina saying "She's tore up plenty but she'll fly true." near the end of the BDM.

Did you get a load of her makeup and hair? If my husband just died, I had been stuck on a planet of corpses, I had been busting my wahini to help fix my ship ( boat, whatever ), do you THINK I would look as daisy fresh as she does in that scene?

SAB39

Thursday, October 19, 2006 5:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Teachdaire:
Actually, the proportions of the cargo bay seem about right (Serenity is approximately the length of a 747, and a bit taller as well). As for the thing with Mal's bunk, ask yourself this question, do you make sure the light in your bedroom is working? It's a naturally dark space, and a fall could hurt. Also, it makes sense that doors that swing open like that as opposed to sliding like the majority of the other doors on board, would have a pneumatic buffer system to keep the shut when the ship goes through any kind of lateral or roll movements.

I'm not suggesting that all these things aren't reasonable designs for a ship. But this isn't just "a ship" we're talking about, this is Serenity. The way the cargo bay looks, the way the engine looks, the way the bunk doors work are all established in the series. The bunk doors don't have pneumatic buffering and if they're illuminated at all (I forget) it's with plain old white bulbs, not blue pseudo-hightech flourescent tubing around the outside.

And that's one of the things that made the Serenity of the series feel so "real". Do you have flourescent lighting around your bedroom doorway? Do you have one of those fancy things they attach to the top of doors in public places to make them re-close when left open? Even if you were designing your home from scratch, would you put those things in? I wouldn't. They make it feel like an impersonal sterile public space, rather than a home.

Serenity isn't a luxury liner, she's more like an 18-wheeler - a second or third or fifth-hand 18-wheeler with quite a few years and miles on it, at that. I'm the first to admit I know nothing about 18-wheelers, but I'd venture a guess that especially older models don't typically come equipped with leather seats and power windows and suchlike. Which is what it felt like they did to Serenity in the movie.

It's fine that it doesn't bother you, but it bothers me, I'm afraid...

WOLFEN68

Thursday, October 19, 2006 5:39 PM

My BDM niggle:

We all know Mal is a sergeant. When the operative is viewing the "River kick butt" replay feed from the bar, he zooms in on Mal and brings up a screen that proclaims him as a serenity valley independent army veteran with a rank designation of "Captain". What gives?

I also was a little disappointed that the BDM was a little more stark and the makeup was ....just...too much. It reminded me of the Next Generation movies as compared to the original shows on TV. Why do they feel they need to change the lighting and atmosphere so much? Does that somehow enhance a movie for the big screen?

They did sadly include sounds in space as already discussed. I did like what they did with Mal's cannon shots to the Reaver ship as the sounds were there...but distant and muffled. Maybe it could be argued that the sound depicted was actually the concussion shock waves impacting the hull of firefly and transmitting the sound internal to the ship only. The Reaver ship was pretty close, which could explain the near instantaneous sound.

Unfortunately, later in the battle, there are several space sounds presented which could not be explained away in this fashion.