Universal's legal action against 11th Hour
POSTED BY: CABridges
UPDATED: Monday, November 13, 2006 09:47
VIEWED: 59350
PAGE 1 of 2
As mentioned previously, Universal LLLC is starting to crack down on fan wares. 11th Hour received a pretty blunt notice that she is struggling to comply with, and I'm posting this as a separate entry to try and keep focused on her specific case rather than the larger issue behind it. There's already a thread here for that, let's stay with 11th Hour here.
She posted about it at the OB and included some of the legal language:
http://forums.prospero.com/foxfirefly/messages?msg=32591.1
Anyone with knowledge of intellectual property law, please contact her as soon as possible. And on a more personal note, she could use some support from the rest of us. 11th Hour has been brightening our corner of the 'verse since there's been a 'verse, I hate that she was the one drew the next bullet.
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I've gotta be honest, I think this is seriously crazy.
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Quote:
"That, no later than close of business on October 30, 2006, 11th Hour Art agree in writing to permanently cease and desist from the advertising, promoting, marketing, sale or distribution of any products bearing or referring to Universal Property"
Guess that could be seen as Universal telling me to stop guerilla marketing too. Good job Universal, can't be having a loose cannon like me running around promoting Serenity. Think of the damage that could do.
Good bye guerilla marketing posters too?
Hello Serenity Valley.
What do you think Joss thinks about all of this?
For someone who so actively promoted the movie to be be treated like this...it's shameful.
EDIT: Copied from Gossi's response to this same post over at whedonesque.com..
Quote:
I think some law firms here have fallen out of a tree and missed every clue branch on the way down.
gossi | October 24, 21:17 CET
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Joss is very big on the chain of command - do not expect any support from that front.
As far as I can tell, this is a public declaration that Universal have given up on continuing the franchise. They're taking direct hostile action against those who have given large amounts of time, money and effort to promote the show, in the hopes of picking up real chicken feed amounts of money.
If they wanted to merely stop 11th Hour from selling any copyrighted material, they could have taken the route Fox did against BlueSunShirts and delivered a cease and desist. But instead they're demanding large sums of money (well, large for 11th Hour, chicken feed for a movie studio).
This is a direct attack and insult on the fans. There are plenty of other ways they could have done this but they've gone with this tactic. If they were going to continue with the franchise, they'd try to keep us onside. Instead, they're going for the last quick buck they can get out of us.
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This is one really big load of hwai!
How the hell can this happen?
oohhh our easy goin' nature is gettin' sorely f**kin' tested!
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"Listen, if you got guests I can come back later."
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I think you're confusing Universal's legal arm with the rest of Universal. I'd be surprised if anyone involved at Universal LLLC even knew what the movie was. Their job is to protect the property, not to evaluate the usefulness of fan marketing.
I'm no supporting their move, but I don't assign evil intent to it, either. Just short-sighted intent. It's the same to us, but from their end I'd bet it's just business as usual.
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Ni ta ma de. Tianxia suoyoude ren. Dou gaisi.
Quote:
How the hell can this happen?
good question
Quote:
oohhh our easy goin' nature is gettin' sorely f**kin' tested!
you know that's right!
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Quote:
Originally posted by CABridges:
I think you're confusing Universal's legal arm with the rest of Universal. I'd be surprised if anyone involved at Universal LLLC even knew what the movie was. Their job is to protect the property, not to evaluate the usefulness of fan marketing.
As I said, there's softly softly ways of doing this and there's grab as much as possible ways of doing this. Their legal arm wouldn't use such tactics without an okay from higher up the chain.
If we asked, I'm sure there would be a "Shocked, I tell you, shocked" reaction from them... but I'd be pretty doubtful that will change much.
Basically if they keep playing hardball with 11th Hour, that is it. There's going to be a reaction to this and if they can see our discontent and shrug it off and still pursue 11th Hour and the others, it means they don't care what we think. I have a backup plan that might make them change their mind on that but really, if they don't call off the hounds, we can stick a fork in the franchise, at least as far as Universal is concerned.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
As far as I can tell, this is a public declaration that Universal have given up on continuing the franchise.
That's just an emotional response, and it's somewhat silly.
To me, this seems to imply the opposite. If they had no further interest in Serenity, they'd have no reason to persue this.
But if they see someone else making money off of their property, they can and will put a stop to it.
Unauthorized merchandise is illeagal, even if it's done by true fans.
I'm amazed that people are surprised when these things happen.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Okay, one more time: it's not what they're doing, it's how they're doing it. They're taking the most hostile, aggressive tactics available to them. You don't do this with people you want to keep onside.
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WOW! This is pretty aggressive.. and it does raise the question about guerilla marketing etc.
I might suggest that if you have favorite fan vids... you might want to save them too... before the hammer hits on those creative types as well...
I get the idea that one should not make money off another's IP.. (blah blah blah) but this SEEMS to go beyond that.. to no marketing etc.
I too wonder what this all means.. I have no idea.
As to legal advice.. try the law clinic at a local Law School, they may be able to provide some pro bono legal advice/assistance
Chindi
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The question for me is why now? Two possibilities come to mind:
1) The bods at Universal got startled by all the 'Versary letters they received, many of which commented on how Browncoats are willing to spend money on merchandise, and they wondered if they were missing out on easy money...
or
2) A lisence holder threatened Universal with legal action for not protecting the exclusivity of the lisence they had sold to him/her... resulting in a bunch of rushed, worried and consequently threatening emails and letters from the Universal Legal Dept...
I'd agree with CABridges that there is a good chance that if the latter scenario is accurate, the suits at the top who know what the movie was, and and how important the fanbase was and is, don't know what's going on. The tone of the letter sent to 11th Hour has a feeling of urgency and, almost, fear about it - perhaps due to a concern that they need to be seen to be doing something now and fast - otherwise why don't they go down the cheaper and simpler route of straightforward C&D letters?
Not a whole lot of common-sense flying around Universal at the moment I reckon... My heart goes out to those staunch Browncoats who have worked hard, profited little, and are thanked not at all by the boys who get the major cashy cash.
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good point made by Kane 1 over on the OB...
Quote:
Hang on - you've rec'd an E-MAIL demand for retrospective fees .... what legal body makes demands by e-mail? Treat it as a scam claim to extort money and report it to the Police and if you feel like it Universal but make the police your first stop (may be an FBI report would be appropriate in the US)
...does make you wonder.
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That is true..I would have expected it as a letter, not an email...
hmmm
Chindi
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Glad someone spotted that - thought it had gotten lost in the replys so I headed over here to post as well - if someone could post it on whedonesque as well it'd help get the message across to 11th Hour - and if it is Universal then maybe we should start pointing our comments at them in our special Browncoat manner.
Arbas/Kane/Kane_1 and all sorts of variations on the Kane theme :)
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Quote:
good point made by Kane 1 over on the OB...
Quote:
Quote:
Hang on - you've rec'd an E-MAIL demand for retrospective fees .... what legal body makes demands by e-mail? Treat it as a scam claim to extort money and report it to the Police and if you feel like it Universal but make the police your first stop (may be an FBI report would be appropriate in the US)
...does make you wonder.
Yeah, the wording in the excerpt 11thHour provided seemed a little odd (specifically the sentence refering to the 'valuable' copyrights). Not to mention that the 72 hour demand sounds like a ransom demand...
Does anyone know the legality of using email to threaten this kind of action? Email can be easily ignored - isn't that why papers are served in person (and not through the mail system?)
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrT:
good point made by Kane 1 over on the OB...Quote:
Hang on - you've rec'd an E-MAIL demand for retrospective fees .... what legal body makes demands by e-mail? Treat it as a scam claim to extort money and report it to the Police and if you feel like it Universal but make the police your first stop (may be an FBI report would be appropriate in the US)
...does make you wonder.
Yes. If it it legit' there should be a postal address AND telephone number which can be used to verify its authenticity. I would suggest making sure this is all above board before leaping to any other sort of action.
When I think of an interesting signature you'll be the first to know.
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here is an idea, it might be pretty thin, but here it goes.
maybe universal is going to make their own shirts and stuff and dont want it confused with 11th hr??
like i said it is thin, but who knows?? they all ready have mal's gun in the works and the replica money? maybe tshirts are next???
universals "offical" mechendise money might help them rally up for a sequal with the big wigs??
thin i know
Keep Flying!!
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I am excessively shocked about this...
just as Andy Warhol had a right to create original artwork based on the Campbell soup logo,
so 11th Hour has a right to make and even sell her original art work, which you will notice carefully avoids any use of logo or trademarked images.
a friend- who IS a lawyer of contractual law, but who does not practice in court - at lj (who I think would not want hundreds of people arriving at her lj) wrote the following piece on a similar topic several months ago:Quote:
Intellectual Property Law and the Fan - A Primer
[I originally posted a short version of this as a response to [someone at lj] lengthy analysis of a recent Harry Potter fanfic scandal regarding plagrism. For a deeper understanding of that scandal or plagirism go to that post. This one is about how fanfic, icons, vids, screen shot fall under copyright law and the extent to which, if any, they are considered copyright infringement. I updated it to include the Tasini court case, which I can't believe I forgot - it's at the end of the history section. Please note, I altered the section on Real Person Fanfic after doing a bit more research. You actually have less leeway here as opposed to more - due to libel and defamation laws - which do come into play here. Also note that my understanding of libel and defamation laws is fairly simplistic.]
Fandom and Intellectual Property Law…
Fanfic is a foggy area copyright wise, but then so is intellectual property law. People do not agree and US Copyright Law has been changed several times – there’s the 1976 Act, the amended act of 1978, and again in 1988 with the Berne Convention Implementation Act of 1988, the Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act in 1998 (or Mickey Mouse Protection Act)( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Bono_Copyright_Term_Extension_Act, the World Copyright Act), The WIPO Copyright Treaty of 1996, The European Copyright Directive and finally the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998, – which was the most controversial and went through multiple drafts before being signed by the President on October 28,1998.
A Little Bit of History
I remember back in 1996-2000, being on two list-serves, one went to a combo of Archivist and Library Association members around the Globe, but was mostly US based, and one an Intellectual Property Lawyer's list serve - regarding the legalities relating to different types of derivative works.
This was when the internet was just beginning to take off, before live journal existed or we had such things as blogs. Discussion boards were rudimentary and IM Messaging non-existent. The legal minds on the list-serves were worried that the internet would make it easier for people to steal or swipe intellectual property, cut and past links and content, manipulate images, and it would be impossible to track, police or govern. The Internet felt like an the perfect device for intellectual property theft. They were so worried that they kept trying to pass World Copyright Acts regarding the internet and finally managed to get some language into the European Copyright Directive and the US version - Digital Millennium Copyright Act – these were implementations of laws from the World Intellectual Property Organization Copyright Treaty of 1996. The Sonny Bono Copyright Extension is the other law that US put into place to implement the WIPO Copyright Treaty. Doing so, made it possible for the countries who had implemented the treaty to respect US Copyright Law and vice versa. I think I saw four or five versions of the Treaty, the Directive, and the Millennium Act before they were signed into law. And they were not agreed to by all the nations – this is important. (I may be wrong, but I think Germany may have been one of the hold-outs along with, of course, Asia, which posed obvious issues regarding international law.) The test was – where is the ISP address originating from and is the content being distributed on the site originating from that country or did the content originate in another country protected under the World Act and was
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The post below that said that a "real" action from Universal would not be sent via email is incorrect. I was contacted via email by Fox regarding an original Simpson's episode master I attempted to sell on ebay and I can guarantee you the goram email was legit. I had to hire an LA lawyer to get me out of the jam and prove I was the rightful owner of the tape otherwise Fox was demanding big bucks I did not have. It all has to do with protecting their licensed products.
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrT:
good point made by Kane 1 over on the OB...Quote:
Hang on - you've rec'd an E-MAIL demand for retrospective fees .... what legal body makes demands by e-mail? Treat it as a scam claim to extort money and report it to the Police and if you feel like it Universal but make the police your first stop (may be an FBI report would be appropriate in the US)
...does make you wonder.
Yes. If it it legit' there should be a postal address AND telephone number which can be used to verify its authenticity. I would suggest making sure this is all above board before leaping to any other sort of action.
When I think of an interesting signature you'll be the first to know.
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Gotta be a scam this is!
Hang on there friend. Some light might be shed soon.
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I can't see a legitimate demand for retrospective fees being made by e-mail, how would you get a receipt for a start? Bounce it to the police as a possible extortion attempt, they get paid for this sort of thing then if it's genuine address the problem appropriately.
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Sorry, e-mails are now commonly used as a first point of contact in such matters.
Plus there's the fact that Universal and Fox have both been taking separate actions against other people selling Firefly/Serenity related items.
It's no scam, more's the pity.
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Guys, it's definitely legit. They often use email, and sometimes also send it to an address. However, they don't have 11th Hour's address - she doesn't have her own domain name, she uses AT&T's webspace instead, so Universal don't know her address.
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Why is the Universal Legal Arm doing this? Cuz they're lawyers.
Why aren't they being nice? Cuz, they're LAWYERS. Sadly, it's that simple. The legal system isn't meant to be cuddly.
Having actually been sued - yep, served on several occassions (ammendments, ya see! whee!), depositioned, mediations, lawyers lawyers lawyers, the whole ball o'wax - I know how these things go, I know how lawyers are, and I know that the very last place to look for help is the internet. (Um. Unless you're looking up the Yellow Pages online for a lawyer...... Shush.)
11th Hour... sweetheart... you lovely talented woman: take our support, ignore our legal ramblings, and get thee to a lawyer.
(edited waaaay down so I don't sound like a complete raving lunatic 
)
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Not captioned for the sarcasm impaired.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sara013
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what she said ^
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Get a copyright/contracts lawyer and find out what your legal rights are. Sometimes demands are made and paid that are not exactly legal. I'm not a lawyer, but the demand for retroactive licensing payment sounds fishy and is a legal grey area. Since they did not send you a cease and desist letter first, I would expect this would not hold up, along with the fact Uni encouraged fan works.
I used to work in the entertainment industry and most of the legal people are snakes. It was common practice for them to write misleading contracts, hiding important stuff in legalese in the middle of the contract.
I am surprised this is coming from Universal, They are usually more even handed than the rest of the big studios. This sounds like something I would expect from Paramount Studios.
Hera7
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If Universal is taking action like this, there is a reason. And that reason is not that they have given up on a sequel. The direct opposite, I think.
That reason is one of two things, or both.
1. A licensee that has PAID Universal a fee to manufacture product under a property that is held by the studio has complained.
2. There are plans to continue the series, and the studio wants to make sure there is no one else making money off of their intellectual property.
Yes, I work in licensing.
"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."
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Studios most definitely do send out C&D's via e-mail.
"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrT:
Not a whole lot of common-sense flying around Universal at the moment I reckon... My heart goes out to those staunch Browncoats who have worked hard, profited little, and are thanked not at all by the boys who get the major cashy cash.
Have to agree , MrT !
As always , the trouble with common sense is it ain't so common !
And the trouble with 'conventional' wisdom is , well , that it's so conventional !
Gorramit , this is a heartbreak , and a travesty , as well ! I hope that this is simple , plodding , heavy-handed bureaucratic , corporate stupidity , and that TPTB will soon see it that way , come to their senses , and leave well-enough alone ! This is so dumb , you'd think there was some politician behind it !
There actually may not be another person anywhere in the 'Verse who has done even close to what 11thHour has done for the fandom of Firefly and Serenity ! Universal should be honoring and applauding her for being such an inspiration ! What gives ???
Buck up , 11thHour !
You're still my own personal Browncoat B*D*H ! My artistic temperament is in solidarity with yours through this tough time , and we will see you through this , one way or t'other !
This is about to Damage My Calm !
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leiasky:
1. A licensee that has PAID Universal a fee to manufacture product under a property that is held by the studio has complained.
Option A. A few months ago, a firm bought the shirts license from Universal Licensing LLC.
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And as far as option B goes, look how pissed off people are. Imagine people's reaction if Universal asks us to do more free promotional work for them to help the DVD along.
This is an unmitigated screw up. The tight time limits that have been given to 11th Hour are probably going to prevent any action being taken by those on our side at Universal until it's too late.
That could be deliberate. Stops pressure on people like Nathan from being asked by fans "Why aren't you doing something about this when we rallied to your side by the thousand when you asked for it?".
I guess the next 72 hours are going to be pretty interesting.
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I think you may have hit a chord there. Legal notice HAD to be delivered at the very least by certified mail (signed proof of delivery). They would also have give the offending party time to comply with said request before any kind of financial action could be taken.
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I don't think the people who are acting optimistic are acting altogether sane. I don't mean that as an insult but consider the following:
1 When Universal was supporting Serenity they asked fans to go out and advertise.
2 Universal has just demanded a stop to advertising.
The email did not just say stop using our stuff, it also said stop supporting our stuff. In essence they are trying to cut off the form of advertising that's been most effective in this sort of case and has been known to be since, at least, 1987.
Everyone who thinks it is a sign that Universal has hopes for the project please tell me where I'm wrong but first:
Ask yourself what it means to "permanently cease and desist from the advertising, promoting, marketing, sale or distribution of any products bearing or referring to Universal Property"
Well for starters it has nothing to do with preventing others from profiting from Serenity because then it would say, "permanently cease and desist from sale of any products bearing or referring to Universal Property," and it isn't trying to stop things from getting out there in order to increase demand for their own products because then it would read, "permanently cease and desist from sale or distribution of any products bearing or referring to Universal Property."
So we're left with the question, what does it mean advertise, promote, or market?
Before I hit on that I just want to point out two major points:
1 This is not limited to non-endorsed products and certainly not to products produced by 11th Hour Art, in fact it states just the reverse, it says ANY product meeting those requirements.
2 The Serenity DVD itself is a product that both bears and refers to Universal Property.
As such let us think about it in terms of Serenity itself (so I don't have to type, "product bearing or referring to Universal Property," all the time) because it is obviously covered.
So, again, what does it mean to advertise, promote, or market Serenity?
To say, "Serenity is on DVD," is to advertise it.
To say, "Serenity is good," is promote it.
To say, "Buy Serenity," is market it.
(Seriously, that's why a business sending out a person to say, "New iPods are out now," is considered advertising.)
So the order is for 11th Hour Art to agree, in writing, not to recognize Serenity or anything else from Universal. Since this is directed at 11th Hour Art and not a physical person it isn't stopping anyone from talking, but the question becomes why they don't want someone helping their marketing?
It is preventing 11th Hour Art from doing anything that endorses, announces, or even recognizes the existence of any Universal property, but since the 11th Hour Art site doesn't have a News section it is unlikely that it would say, "I just saw Slither and it kicks ass," anyway. (Some businesses do that sort of thing, even some larger ones.)
As such for 11th Hour Art this seems to be minor, perhaps the most minor thing about the situation. However when it comes to people saying, "This is a good sign," I think it's fairly major that they just said, "No more advertising our product," which is, by my understanding, the exact opposite of what would be done when product v.2 is about to come out.
I can't see this as a sign that they think Serenity will make more money because if that were the case they would be encouraging advertising and promotion, not demanding that it stop.
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I wish I knew something to say that might help, but my legal knowledge is pretty slim. My thoughts are with you 11th Hour. I hope you can find a way through this.
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"So long and goodnight."
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Ok, I'm no legal guru, and I also tend to react very emotionally, so forgive me for this:
We need an address. We need to slam their mailboxes full. We need to tell them how inappropriate we feel this is. We need to tell them that if this is due to interests in countinuing with Serenity, we'd all be happy to do what we need to do to support the sequel, as long as they can confirm it now. However, If they are doing this because they refuse to do more. We're also all very happy to never support another property of Universal ever again. As much as 11th, and many others brought people to them, we can pull them away.
Afraid they're losing a little money? They don't know what losses we can provide.
If it's all due to a company who wants to sell shirts.... how many do they think they'll sell to us with tactics such as this?
Stand up. Fight back.
"But you sleep like a ghost with me
It's as simple as that
So tell me I'm mad
Roll me up and breathe me in
Come to my madness
My opium den
Come to my madness
Make sense of it again."
Goodbye to all that. III-The Opium Den (Brave)-Marillion
visit WWW.Marillion.com for a better way of life.
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People, She was selling other peoples sh*t...She is a thief, I know we all love our thieves around here, but come on ....They should take her to court and sue the wrinkles off her ass.....Well, I would.............
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Sucks, sucks, sucks, sucks, sucks. Maybe legal, doesn't mean it doesn't suck any less.
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I feel really bad for you and the others who have been suffered needless attacks for promoting a show that was abandoned and a movie which will only have many more viewers for the sequel, do in no small part, to organizations such as yours which faithfully promoted them. This is a truly sad day.
This is capitalism at it's worst.
Copyright laws are out of control and on days like this it seems like there is nothing that we can do about it. Big studios, lawyers, middle-men and their ilk are scrambling to put laws in place to control the internet and trade because they're scared. They're quickly realizing that if they don't put in these legal controls soon and destroy the freedom of the internet as we know it, people will realize that the middleman is not not necessary in the 21st century, considering the power of the people behind the internet. We can not let them take this away from us!
I'm going to stop talking and thinking about this for the moment, because when I do think about it, I start plotting dangerous thoughts in my head and this is not the time or place for me to be plotting. There will be a day when the people take their freedom back from the oppressors who abuse our legal system and turn it against us, and that day is comming soon. There are many of us out here that share these sentiments. Big Corp/Gov may have all the lawyers and the money, but we have the numbers and we are not robots, nor do we worship money. We will not be slaves!
They can beat us down but we WILL rise again!
My thoughts are with all of the victims of this, the most recent Alliance attack on the people. I wish you luck in your future endeavors.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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What do you propose Jadehand? I've got a lot of free time and I'm down for a little mischeif.
Let's be bad guys..... "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
People, She was selling other peoples sh*t...She is a thief, I know we all love our thieves around here, but come on ....They should take her to court and sue the wrinkles off her ass.....Well, I would.............
It's been some time since I've visited 11thHour's website to see what she had for sale there before her massive editing done this past weekend, but if you're going to license something as generalized as two specific chinese characters... That's like saying, "Wait! You used the letter k and l next to each other! I own the letters k and l when they're next to each other. Pay up." It runs along the same lines as someone trying to trademark, "That's hot." And we all know how well that one did.
Let's add this one up, shall we? Let's guestimate an advertising contract for her company at roughly $40,000 a year, all paper and internet based work, paying her employees (us) for spreading around her posters. Since the movie was obviously promoted before it was released, I'd say Universal owes HER over $60,000 for the work she's done promoting their movie.
They ASKED fans to promote the movie. How can we do this without actually mentioning the movie or producing some sort of product to accomplish this for them? Perhaps us Browncoats did TOO good of a job?
I agree with the speculation that there are official license holders out there who have complained to Universal and want their licensing protected since they were they ones who paid for it. This sort of thing reeks of a mass-produced letter from some schmoe who sat at a desk and searched through CafePress' stuff just looking to shut people down and make a little money off of it.
'Cause you know that 11thHour is just rolling in dough. *cough* Please excuse the sarcasm, my head cold doesn't tolerate idiocy very well. This is just plain wrong.
~Kaele
PA Browncoats, Delaware Valley Brigade
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/PA_browncoats/
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Well said, Kaele.
This is truly frustrating! unbelievably so!
11thHour, if you're reading, Babe, we are 100% behind you on this!
There has to be a way to fight this, and to make it clear that 11thHour's work has only BENEFITED
Universal and their film.
And YES, if you need it, we can do a fundraiser, a pledge drive, a SUPPORT OUR 11TH HOUR NOW fund. Just say the word.
I'm heartsick over this.
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As I said, I'm no genius, and I'm overly emotional when it comes to bullies picking on good people. 11th hour is a brilliant artist, and I was as honored to have her autograph on the Serenity RPG, (for which she created the art) as I was our own BDHs. I just think that if Universal gets a few thousand letters saying something along the lines of: "We browncoats love Firefly and Serenity. We promoted it out of love, to bring the word to those who needed it told. You profited from that, and now it seems you want to turn on us. You turn on one of our crew, you turn on us all. If this position you are taking is due to interest in continuing our beloved story. Tell us now. We'll stand behind you and find a way through this so as no one gets hurt. If you've no plans to continue our story and this is all about the money.... You'll never see another penny from any of us, or our friends, or theirs. If this is about some moron that bought the merchandising rights.... they're done. None of us will ever buy a gorramn thing from them. Drop this crap, or watch us rise."
Let's be exceptionally! conservative. Let's say there's merely 200,000 of us, and we all tell our four closest friends that aren't browncoats, and each of them tells 3 others, and they tell 2, and they tell 1 more .... 24 million people never, ever, paying to see another film from Universal.... might hurt.
'course... I'm insane.
"But you sleep like a ghost with me
It's as simple as that
So tell me I'm mad
Roll me up and breathe me in
Come to my madness
My opium den
Come to my madness
Make sense of it again."
Goodbye to all that. III-The Opium Den (Brave)-Marillion
visit WWW.Marillion.com for a better way of life.
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From these bits, I'd say 11thHour has at least one legal leg to stand on 
Quote:
Originally posted by embers:Quote:
Intellectual Property Law and the Fan - A Primer
...
You can't trademark a title and you cannot trademark a person's name. Book titles can’t be trademarked. Television titles can but within reason and only if you prove distinctiveness.
...
Screen-shots, Images, and Icons
...
It is copyright infringement to sell a TV shirt with Spike on the front, his name and “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” underneath, but not copyright infringement with just a picture of “Spike” that you created and was not taken directly from another person's work.
...
Another perhaps better example - someone online recently posted a shirt they'd created with ironed on drawings of characters from Firefly as well as imagery taken from the show Firefly and the film Serenity. All of it was their own artwork and they got the idea from a shirt one of the characters wore on the series. Is this infringement? No. Can they sell it or show it in an art gallery? Yes. Of course they can. Just as Andy Warhol could do his paintings of Marilyn Monroe. It's not a derivative work or an adaptation. It is an innovative work distinct from the original.
...
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Embers.... that is awesome. Where did you find that? I would like to learn a bit more about this subject myself, from a legal standpoint. Maybe the Universal pigs don't have a leg to stand on themselves. Maybe they are just hoping that unwarranted bully tactics from an entity who might as well have all the money in the world as far as their victims are concerned will make the pennyless masses tremble in fear and bend over.
Jadehand... I like your idealism, but I've been through enough to know that counting on 24 million people boycotting Universal would probably never even happen. You can't even get a national no-gas day organized when gas tops $3.00/gal for the national average.... not to mention the fact that I can't count on many of my friends for anything in the first place. I'd like to see a third party in office in 2008 too but I'll be dead before I ever see that happen. Sadly, the only way that millions of people would boycott Universal was if all of the news agencies started running 24 hour coverage on how Universal was responsible for the death of millions of Jews in WWII. That always seems to sell tickets and garner a lot of sympathy.
Come to think of it, that would be pretty cool if we could blame that on Universal. If only there were a way....... "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Just a point or two :)
1) This isn't a cease and desist it's a demand for money and stock
2) You really expect me to believe that a firm of lawyers couldn't trace an address from a website when they have a legitimate legal claim to retroactive fees and stock? Sorry but any lawyer employed by an organisation the size of Universal would have no problem doing that.
Contact a lawyer? - yes if it's free
Contact the police? - most definately
Contact Universal? - through their website NOT through any url in the original e-mail (it may be a scam remember) use http://www.universalstudios.com/homepage/html/contact_us/contact_links
.html and hit the Corporate and Licensing links
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wallraven:
From these bits, I'd say 11thHour has at least one legal leg to stand on
it is a difficult question...one of her main images was this one (offered in different colors):
it is obviously original art work,
but using the phrase 'can't take the sky from me'
and the word 'Serenity' makes it clear that it is related to the movie...
I think a good lawyer could beat this wrap because it is an original personal statement and not a copy of anything from the movie,
but a bad lawyer would probably lose and end up costing 11thHour a lot of money ....
the whole situation really sucks and I hope that Universal will be satisfied with her taking down her shop w/cafepress and will drop it.
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Quote:
2) You really expect me to believe that a firm of lawyers couldn't trace an address from a website when they have a legitimate legal claim to retroactive fees and stock? Sorry but any lawyer employed by an organisation the size of Universal would have no problem doing that.
In the case of 11th Hour's, she uses AT&T's domain name, not her own. It's their webspace, their server. If Universal's lawyers wanted her address, they would have to file discovery charges with AT&T to get her address - which costs money, which they would also demand from 11th Hour.
It's very, very common practice for legal notices to go via email. Trust me.
However, unless they could prove you received it (and they can, because of the online topics here) they can't very well action it, in terms of timescales they give (3 days in this case).
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Quote:
Originally posted by embers:Quote:
Originally posted by Wallraven:
From these bits, I'd say 11thHour has at least one legal leg to stand on
it is a difficult question...one of her main images was this one (offered in different colors):
it is obviously original art work,
but using the phrase 'can't take the sky from me'
and the word 'Serenity' makes it clear that it is related to the movie...
I think a good lawyer could beat this wrap because it is an original personal statement and not a copy of anything from the movie,
but a bad lawyer would probably lose and end up costing 11thHour a lot of money ....
the whole situation really sucks and I hope that Universal will be satisfied with her taking down her shop w/cafepress and will drop it.
That's an old version of that art. The revised version did not have the word "Serenity" on it.
11th Hour
>>>}———————————————)))======<[]>======(((———————————————{<<<
"Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!" - Hoban Washburne
Firefly/Serenity Guerilla Marketing Posters ~ http://the11thhour.home.att.net
Cafe Press Shop ~ http://www.cafepress.com/11thhourart
Spread the word today ~ Give the gift of Firefly: http://www.apple.com/itunes
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What's next? I suppose all the Browncoat groups out there who depend on fan work to raise money for their charities are just SOL, huh? Nice.
I love my country, but I really REALLY hate the corporate politics.
BoomerGoodheart
"I love my Captain."
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If this is genuine then the solution is simple - let Universal know that the Browncoat community will completely boycott all Universal products, let the companies that have paid for the merchandise licences know that the Browncoat community will completly boycott their licenced products etc etc etc but before we start talking about that sort of action we have to verify that this is actually from Universals legal people. No point in going off half cocked.
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Jadehand... I like your idealism, but I've been through enough to know that counting on 24 million people boycotting Universal would probably never even happen. You can't even get a national no-gas day organized when gas tops $3.00/gal for the national average.... not to mention the fact that I can't count on many of my friends for anything in the first place.
There is a method we can use as a response to Universal but it's a nuclear option, only to be used to defend ourselves against direct hostile attacks and when we're sure that Universal has no interest in producing a sequel.
I don't even want to mention it because I'm still hopeful this can be resolved sensibly. But if it can't, there are options available to us.
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Posted by Wyyrdo on the OB
Quote:
Lot of panicking going on right now, and rightfully so. After years of the careful and unspoken “we won’t notice fan-made stuff as long as it doesn’t compete with our own merchandise, should we ever get around to making any” attitude from FOX and Universal, a conflict has arisen and a heavy hand is making itself known. No longer will fans get away with their own Serenity logo T-shirts or barely-Photoshopped crewmember designs. It’s not worth the hassle and Universal is well within their rights to block such things, even though in the real world I suspect this will end up costing them a lot in good will and fan backlash.
So, they can take our ship and take our crew and leave us to buy whatever licensed items are left over. But, and this is an important but, they can’t take the ‘verse from us.
I see it as a challenge. Can we move on and create artwork and graphic designs that represent what Serenity means to us without actually referencing the movie or its characters? I think we can.
Let’s make our own crews, our own worlds. The juxtaposition of the old west and space is not copyrighted. Nor are courtesans in futuristic settings, beat up spaceships, pretty captains, crazy telepaths, cliche-breaking funny drama, or even the Papyrus font (well, not the free version, anyway). Don’t make a poster of Mal. Make a poster he’d hang up, instead. Show us the glory and freedom of flying through the black but use your own ship design. Can’t use Blue Sun? Fine. Invent their competitor.
Such designs will not sell as easily as Serenity stuff does, obviously. No built-in advertising, no already-known symbols and catch-phrases. They won’t help promote the show or the movie as well. And for many of us, such creations simply won’t be as satisfying because we fell in love with this ship, with these people.
But I don’t want this recent legal action to mean I’ll never see any more 11th Hour artwork ever again. Running this site I’ve gotten to see the work of many insanely talented people, and I want more. Let’s go find it.
And you know what? I bet it’ll be cooler, funnier, and better than whatever Universal finally produces.
There is a balance here between our shared, and I believe righteous, anger at the way this situation has been handled and the fair and legitimate point that guys out there have paid for the right to produce lisenced goods. For example, the guys at QMX love the 'Verse and have gone about everything above board.
What we and Universal need to do is get some perspective, support the legitimate production of lisenced goods while also encouraging the Signal by allowing artistic spin-offs. We can't blame Universal for protecting their property, but we can be pretty disgusted by the heavy-handed approach they've taken in doing so.
11th Hour has stripped down her shop to its legitimate essentials, and it is now up to us to keep putting dollars both into her hands and into those of the lisence holders as it is through the latter that the message will be carried back to the studio and through the former that the 'Verse will take on new forms. Nothing could be gained by deliberately preventing the BDM going as far into the black (financially) as we can take it, nothing except a lack of a sequel on financial grounds - the only real grounds that we can influence.
Sorry for the diatribe, but there is a lot of (understandable) anger floating around so I have tried to balance it... Let's take the BDM into the black and search out that sequel, but let's do it with 11th Hour, Black Market Beagle and the rest of the shop crews on board!
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Why her? There are so many cookie cutter folks out there making tshirts and posters. 11th hour actually creates her art. She makes new pieces simply based upon the original idea. It's good stuff. If there were products for us to buy, we’d do it. These arseholes are robbing us of all products. No way to search Cafe Press, fining 11th Hour, shutting down websites...they're killing us. They're killing the fandom, folks.
This needs to get out. OUtside our world. This needs to be addressed by all fandoms...especially Universal ones. They need to know what's happening. We need to see this on news sites, blogs, movie boards, everywhere.
www.thatweirdgirl.com
---
"...turn right at the corner then skip two blocks...no, SKIP, the hopping-like thing kids do...Why? Why not?"
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Isn't there one Browncoat out there that knows someone high up at Universal? What about Mary Parent, she's a Browncoat. I for one will NOT be buying any of the licensed items. Perhaps we should ALL send Universal a bill for the marketing we did for Serenity and the sales of Firefly (which I know is Fox, but it helped Universal too)
I aim to misbehave!
Firefly items:
For lapel pins and badge holder lanyards
e-mail FireflyGal1@hotmail.com
www.outtotheblack.com
www.cafepress.com/fillies
www.cafepress.com/mssquarepeg.com
www.cafepress.com/mrsquarepeg.com
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After reading the 108 (as of 8:48 AM EST) responses to this same posting over at whedonesque, I am moved to repost this:
The Ballad of Universal
Take my heart
Take my pay
Sue me til the end of day
I don't care, still found my crew
When I helped you then got screwed
Coats of brown
Here and abroad,
Know the sitch, it's on the boards
Burn my site and be greedy,
You can't take my crew from me.
There's no place I can be
Since I helped YOU make money
But you can't take my crew from me.
~Kessa (for 11th Hour and all Browncoats everywhere dealing with this injustice)
Kessa | October 25, 07:41 CET
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11th Hour,
I am so sorry to hear about what Universal is doing to you. Their heavy handed tactics are inexcusable, especially considering all of the hard work you have contributed over the years to keep the story alive.
Please keep us posted as to what is happening in resolving this issue.
I agree w/ Jadehand and others that something must be done. We should all send emails and letters to Universal declaring our outrage over their handling of this issue. Certainly they have the right to protect their property, but a simple C&D order would have been more than sufficient. For them to demand money & threaten legal action is a tactic I would expect of the Alliance, not a studio who asked for (and REWARDED) our efforts in viral marketing of the BDM.
Perhaps we can also start donations for a legal fund if necessary to help 11th Hour protect herself from the legal dogs Universal has set on her.
__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!
"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."
Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/
http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org
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Can someone at least get word to Adam Baldwin or one of the other BDH's who frequent the boards. Maybe one of them would be willing to donate a script or some other items like Adam did and the money can go to 11th hours defense. Our wishes are nice but she needs cashey money and I would hope are BDH's are up for helping us fight.
I aim to misbehave!
Firefly items:
For lapel pins and badge holder lanyards
e-mail FireflyGal1@hotmail.com
www.outtotheblack.com
www.cafepress.com/fillies
www.cafepress.com/mssquarepeg.com
www.cafepress.com/mrsquarepeg.com
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Over on the OB, 11thHour has a website listed in her profile ( http://the11thhour.home.att.net/). It's not the CafePress store, it's her own site with free artwork banners. Well, down at the bottom (way down at the bottom)is a PayPal button. I'm under the impression that she put it on there way back when she started, just as a way to help defray website costs. That seems as good a place as any to contribute to a defense fund. Hmmm...might want to wait until she talks to a lawyer, though, and figures out what's what.
BoomerGoodheart
"I love my Captain."
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A few things from another CafePress user some of you might be familiar with (me!)
1) The year is 2006, and legal departments, especially where dealing with internet issues, will use email to communicate things. I have, on more than occasion received a C&D order that way. I simply discontinued the questioned item and did not fight it (can't afford to). I am currently trying to get a response from a company who claims they own the rights to the word "CAUTION"...Corporate Bullying is all it is.
2) Secondly, I can not afford to take any chances in the face of this being legitimate, and as such have discontinued all "SERENITY" items on my site. Sorry, but I'm in worse financial shape than 11th, I am sure of that, especially because most, sometimes all of my profits, get fed back into the Browncoat network as donations in one fashion or another.
3) Also, all my sympathies to my fellow hardworking Browncoat entrepenuers. I fell your pain.
4) Lastly, I intend, if this proves true, to boycott everything Universal...just like I do with FOX now. I say folk do the same...again if this all proves true.
Keep Flyin'!
BWAH! 
TCM
http://www.cafepress.com/10thcrew
*Download my Firefly Games for FREE at
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=13&t=12622
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In or near Ohio? Join us!
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Quote:
Originally posted by TenthCrewMember:
(can't afford to).
Well, that about sums up this whole thread.
Hell, that about sums up the justice system for every civilized nation on this sad planet.
"As much justice as you can afford."
EDIT: Okay, in retrospect felt kinda bad about using such awful language here, (my grandma would be pissed), so the jest of what I wrote was simply that universal studios are big meanies.
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I think we need to give Universal a window in which to sort this out - they may have underestimated our strength of feeling and resolve.
So let's go easy with the insults until we know for sure what the situation is because if they get pure abuse from us, that will make them very unlikely to keen to further the verse.
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I'd expect something like this from LucasEmpire, but I really expected better of Universal.
If the lawyers had their way, I could be arrested for walking down the street whistling the Ballad of Serenity.
Everyone who's identified these as bullying tactics is right; isn't there some way we can get some powerhouses in our corner? I know Joss lurks omnipresently, and even if he's as scared of lawyers as we are, this can't have escaped his notice.
-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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11th Hour:
I did check out your changes at your shop and I'm hoping it'll be enough to make Universal drop it,
I love your work...
I have bought that image I posted (the gold firefly) because it was beautifully artistic and subtle,
because it was your original artwork.
good luck
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>Let's add this one up, shall we? Let's guestimate an advertising contract for her company at roughly $40,000 a year, all paper and internet based work, paying her employees (us) for spreading around her posters. Since the movie was obviously promoted before it was released, I'd say Universal owes HER over $60,000 for the work she's done promoting their movie.
And she owes whatever their licensing fee is for selling items related to THEIR Intellectual Property.
Some of our hot properties cost 500,000 to license. . .
Universal owes nothing.
And the more trouble fans cause for Universal, the harder they are going to come down on illegal manufacture of products made using THEIR Property.
I can't say I'm happy about Universal and Fox cracking down on fans, but since I work in this industry, I see the studio side of the coin quite clearly.
"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."
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Thinking about the sales details demand - do they expect names, addresses, ACCOUNT DETAILS - if so that sounds more and more like a scam. 11th if you've confirmed that the originators are actually representing Universal can you let us know please.
(cross posted from the other thread)
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Double post - apologies
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Sorry, but I agree that someone who purchased a license probably complained. This is the legal action that Universal has to take. They are in agreements with anyone who purchased a license to defend thier copyrights. I know this is harsh, but it's kill or be killed. There's no way someone can claim they didn't take action when they show them this.
I won't be boycotting anything Universal. They've been great to the fans and to Joss. If anything I'm in full support of them. You can't blame the legal system on Universal.
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Nonsense they could issue C&Ds and NOT demand retroactive fees, stock and sales info
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**rutting double posts**
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
You can't blame the legal system on Universal.
Nope, but we can blame them for using it in such a fashion...again, *assuming* this is all true.
I not wholly convinced it is true, but like I said, I can't risk that it isn't.
As a side note, it is a good thing there is no great omnipotent creator of the Universe (from where I sit) because he/she/it could sue us for existing and thinking everything they knew first...
Plaintiff: God
Defendant: You
Accusation: Copyright infringement with the intent to promote that You are an original piece of work.
TCM
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This is rediculous. Already the trolls are out and feeding. That chum website has me all riled.
---
Quote:
And she owes whatever their licensing fee is for selling items related to THEIR Intellectual Property.
Some of our hot properties cost 500,000 to license. . .
I guess that depends. I would assume that a company hired to do advertising would include some portion of the rights in their contract so they can show exactly what it is they're promoting. That all breaks down into timing. If it were a not very well known franchise (like Firefly supposedly was) Universal would seek out companies and hire them to advertise their product. The other option would be for advertising agencies to bid for a contract for the rights to advertise it. Granted I'm not in the industry, but from some of the things I've witnessed my husband deal with (some fairly large companies you would know) that seems reasonably correct.
---
Bah. I'm almost ready to go and stuff my Browncoat and Serenity tees in an envelope with a scratched up DVD of the movie. I can mail that neat little love note off to Universal. I don't have to BUY stuff to be a Browncoat. Serenity and any Firefly will be played on regular television channels eventually.
There's always old school fandom: write some fanfics, print them and set up a free Fanzine exchange. Home made costumes, hand knitted Jayne hats. No exchange of money means no copyright infringement, right? LOL
We're a moneyed fandom, but that doesn't mean we NEED to give it to anyone at all.
I'll just take all the money I didn't spend and send it off to a good cause. Like 11th's legal fund.
~Kaele
PA Browncoats, Delaware Valley Brigade
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/PA_browncoats/
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Quote:
Posted by Wyyrdo on the OB
That was me -- I'm cabridges everywhere but the OB, since I lost my pword and signed up under another name. Also posted that at serenitystuff.com, where it's getting some attention from the people I hoped it would.
The key thing right off is not to yell at Universal. Not the studio, not the licensing people, not the lawyers, not at all. For one thing, most of the studio has no control over the legal arm (if anything it's the other way around). And for another, the more people loudly assert their right to sell material that Universal contends is infringing, the more the lawyers will believe they're right to get tough and scary.
We need to find an equilibrium, somewhere where we can promote a universe we love without agggravating the copyright holders (and where talented artists such as 11th Hour won't get nasty letters). Suggestions towards that are welcome. Suggestions on how to strike back at Universal are only making their argument for them.
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CABridges/Wyyrdo - I seem to have quoted you twice in one day - great minds and all that...
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My licensing department will be contacting you shortly... :)
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Quote:Seems to me the easiest solution is in Universal's hands: they want to promote their franchise (we presume, 'cause they've sure as hell shown no evidence of it), we want to promote it, and have been doing so for less than a pittance.
Originally posted by CABridges:
We need to find an equilibrium, somewhere where we can promote a universe we love without agggravating the copyright holders (and where talented artists such as 11th Hour won't get nasty letters). Suggestions towards that are welcome. Suggestions on how to strike back at Universal are only making their argument for them.
Is there any legal reason why Universal can't hire these fan-artists as a sort of freelance publicity corps? I'm sure it'd be cheaper for 'Versal than shelling out for a "real" publicity campaign. It'd also net them the benefit of workers who have demonstrated their effectiveness and awareness of the brand (this might be the reasoning behind the demand for sales figures).
Hasbro (and assorted license-holders) have done similar things in the Transformers fandom; fanfic writers and fan-artists occasionally get tapped to work on official products as paid freelancers.
At this point, not boosting publicity in an organized fashion would be a self-inflicted foot injury for 'Versal; they had advertisement and didn't need to spend a dime. Now they either have no publicity, or they'll have to do the work themselves (which, given their past publicity efforts, I'll believe when I see).
-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arbas:
Nonsense they could issue C&Ds and NOT demand retroactive fees, stock and sales info
Possibly. Or possibly the people who bought licenses are claiming damages and are estimating huge sales and Universal needs proof to the contrary. They can't do that without the sales records and showing what a small stock is actually on hand.
The world is not full of fuzzy bunnies and sunshine 24/7. Universal is a corporation. Sometimes they need to do mean things to survive so they can bring us shiny movies. It's the world we live in and I'd rather focus on the positive.
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You want to do something about this? E-mail them.
Below is a link to the Universal Studios contact page go to the General and Miscellaneous link in the Corporate section and both the Character and Internet links in the Licensing section.
http://www.universalstudios.com/homepage/html/contact_us/contact_links
.html
If you are not much of a writer then go to this thread: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=24840
There are some pre-written messages and another Browncoat said they would compose one today as well. I recommend the letter that PhoenixRose wrote. It's a good one. If you have a letter you want to post so that others can borrow it please do so.
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." http://whimsicalnbrainpan.blogspot.com/
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Quote:
Is there any legal reason why Universal can't hire these fan-artists as a sort of freelance publicity corps?
Several.
1) The t-shirt license has been sold exclusively to a company. Only one company can make shirts, which are distributed to shops like Hot Topic and other resellers.
2) SERENITY is not in release any more. There is no budget capital for it. Nobody is trying to advertise it at the studio.
I think the important part to remember is that Universal Licensing LLC is a seperate company, which has the sole aim of making money from licensed (paid for) merchandise for their properties - eg SERENITY. That's how their staff are judged - amount of official merchandise sold.
I'm not saying their tactics with 11th Hour are justified - they aren't, at all. However, the legal representation of Universal are a law unto themselves -- excuse the pun -- and they come from a perspective of protecting Universal's financial asset - SERENITY. They will have no idea what a Browncoat is, and they don't care. They have to ensure official t-shirts get sold, and fan wares stop that.
Of course, there's a wider picture where fan wares lead to free advertising. The industry hasn't caught up with that.
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Quote:
Originally posted by WhoIsRiver:
They have to ensure official t-shirts get sold, and fan wares stop that.
Not that I've seen. Hell, I've bought all the shirts they've released, and I can make them here at home if I so chose. I was one of the first in my area to buy them, and to tell everyone I knew to go get one.
Most folk I know bought BOTH fan and licensed merch.
I think any true fan, IMO, would buy licensed merchandise first and foremost. They understand that merchandising is part of what gets more of what they love out in the world for them to partake of it.
Just sayin'.
TCM
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Quote:
Of course, there's a wider picture where fan wares lead to free advertising. The industry hasn't caught up with that.
And that, Dear Browncoats, is where we and Universal, (if they were thinking ahead on the issue) could have a chance to make history. Can you imagine the place Universal would have in fandom history (and legal history) if they worked with us instead of against us?
The media distribution and creation economies are changing rapidly. Old School studios and networks are scrambling to catch up. Some things they do right, others, well, not so much. They're jumping off into things like "street teams" (guerilla marketing), MySpace sites, etc. just because they know those things are popular, maybe they've heard about it working for a popular band or indie film. They think they can make it work for them, but they don't take the time to research the particular audience, or -- God forbid! -- actually TALK to these people instead of just checking off a few boxes on a survey or scanning over a couple of fan sites. There's a lot of mismatch of marketing plans/licencing issues/corporate understanding of the current technology and environment going on.
Our current copyright situation is not at all adequate for the way digital content is being used, and is based on a traditional owner also being the only one to produce or license their work, and does not consider all the various ways that content can and is distributed and used today and will be in the future. A major revamping of these laws needs to be made to protect artists, but also allow for non-defamatory promotional uses and other original derivatory works. I'm not for going out and making an exact copy of someone's work and passing it off as your own or that you have the rights to sell it, but if it inspires you to make something of your own that is significantly different in style? That's a different animal, and is also something that with digital media is going to be increasingly impossible to stop and regulate.
Universal could set precedent here, either good or bad. If they really wanted to be the leader in media production for the 21st Century, they might want to consider the benefits of participatory fandom and be the first to offer limited licensing deals to their fans -- I don't think any of us are a significant threat to their bottom line; however, we ARE a significant unpaid addition to their marketing team, and they took great pains to try to use us that way in the past. I'd just like to see them step up to the plate and be respectful of the talent and devotion that helped them out in a difficult situation, and return the favor.
"We gotta go to that crappy town where I'M a hero..."
_______________________________
Shiny stuff for Browncoats at:
http://www.cafepress.com/outtotheblack
http://www.outtotheblack.com
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"we ARE a significant unpaid addition to their marketing team"
As pointed out in a previous post, Universal is not paying anyone to market Serenity, they no longer have a Serenity marketing team.. Their roll in the verse is to get paid by other people to have the right to make money off of their property. No one at Universal cares a lick about the promotion of FF. They haven't for some time. The marketing staff has been replaced with a licensing sales staff. It is sad to us, but a great example of movie industry capitalism....
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I mind me of the way New Line worked with CafePress to encourage Snakes on a Plane designs from fans. They said, straight up, that fans couldn't use the logo or any character likenesses but anything else went, go wild.
Pity it was wasted on a bad movie, but I love the idea and the recognition that fan word of mouth was powerful.
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
"we ARE a significant unpaid addition to their marketing team"
As pointed out in a previous post, Universal is not paying anyone to market Serenity, they no longer have a Serenity marketing team.. Their roll in the verse is to get paid by other people to have the right to make money off of their property. No one at Universal cares a lick about the promotion of FF. They haven't for some time. The marketing staff has been replaced with a licensing sales staff. It is sad to us, but a great example of movie industry capitalism....
I don't disagree with any thing you've said. However, maybe it's time for marketing-as-we-know-it to change. In the "Long Tail" model (see the book by Chris Anderson), new media economies are likely to be driven more by word-of-mouth and niche properties (such as Firefly/Serenity) rather than "tentpole" (blockbuster) properties that are becoming increasingly risky. Studios are starting to realize that there's money (and lots of it!) to be made from ancillary sales - DVDs, books, merchandise- as well as secondary distribution models (podcasts, Direct-to-DVD, web distribution), and even though they don't want to spend money or time promoting a lot of these things (especially once they leave initial distribution launch), wouldn't it make sense to do what you could, cheaply and easily, to work with a group of fans who really, really want to spread the word (and increase sales for YOU)?
It's a thought, and I'm not the only one to have it (see http://www.henryjenkins.org/ for more on "participatory fandom"). It would be great to see Uni REALLY jump on the bandwagon with us to start this change!
"We gotta go to that crappy town where I'M a hero..."
_______________________________
Shiny stuff for Browncoats at:
http://www.cafepress.com/outtotheblack
http://www.outtotheblack.com
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someone at Whedonesque just posted a link to a really interesting website:
http://www.chillingeffects.org/
evidently a joint project of the Electronic Frontier Foundation and Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley, University of San Francisco, University
of Maine, George Washington School of Law, and Santa Clara University School of Law clinics has been created to document C&D letters which
are being sent out to people online, and to provide legal advice in this regard.
They have places to submit C&D letters for fan fic,copyright, trademark, and other 'violations'... even if they can't fix the
problem it is good to know that there are some smart up and coming lawyers who don't want to let the corporations make all the rules just
by the size of their pocket book...because original artwork by BlueSunShirts, BlackMarketBeagle and 11th Hour does not belong to Universal...
just like Andy Warhol had every right to paint and sell Campbell soup
cans, free expression of art does mean something.
rant over.
(but seriously, do post any and all e-mail from lawyers here at
http://www.chillingeffects.org/
and see if they can be of any help!)
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"just like Andy Warhol had every right to paint and sell Campbell soup
cans, free expression of art does mean something."
He never had any legal right to paint Campbell cans. Today he would be in violation of copyright. I don't recall Campbell's trying to stop or bringing suit against him. Am I wrong on this.....
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Just my two cents.
And please don't flame me ><
Universal is NOT marketting Serenity (nor FF, for that matter) anymore. The franchise is [probably, but I am an optimist!] done for them.
Thus, anyone making any kind of cash (for whatever reason, even for Universal's stuff) is probably violating marketing/liscensing laws. There probably was a "free-for-all" marketting up until 30 September of this year, allowing one year for fans to spread word for the DVD and movie etc by word of mouth and cloth.
Shikashi, since Universal makes no money in it anymore, it would be "closing" down the marketting dept. (and dealing only through official liscencess, which, if we look at WMP and the RPG, is also shaky and foreboding).
Sadly, this probably means they're done with the it entirely, which is bad news for us (although the cast, etc, do have other work, etc, and life moves on).
I don't intend to sound down-right evil on the matter, but I DO understand why a company like Universal would do such things. Yes, they're not doing it in the nicest fashion, but that's how capitalistic gain works now (very sadly). It would be like me selling shirts with original Super Man (with C. Reeve!) or Masters of the Universe stuff, where I would make money off a dead-horse. Yes, I WOULD be promoting those franchises, but there is no IMMEDIATE cash-flow into that corporation (and sometimes those don't even exist anymore), and a few pennies here and there to them doesn't account ME making money for the product.
I DO agree that ORIGINAL art etc should be protected from this kinda rackett, but I DO understand where someone like Universal LLLC would come from.
As a final note, it does show a shiny change in the way the world has changed with the internet, art, media, etc, and how the massive corporate world of the 20th century is being strangled. Within a decade there will probably be a huge breaking in how legal issues and corporate issues, like this, etc are handled.
IKIYO.
DRE
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>The marketing staff has been replaced with a licensing sales staff.
Sales and Marketing are two different departments. Usually, notably, under the same 'Consumer Products' or 'Licensing' banner.
One has not replaced the other here.
Universal's Marketing department has other films to promote and support.
Sales execs will consider any proposals from businesses who want to give them money to manufacture product based off one of their Properties.
"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."
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My thoughts and prayers are with you, 11thHour. *hugs*
I don't know how Universal think this is kind, helpful or constuctive. It is nothing less than insulting, alienating loyal browncoats out here.
I LOVE your work and a hope you can't get this whole mess straightened out.
(One of my prized posessions of Firefly memorabilia is one of your Inara art Deco cards -it's so pretty)
Don't let this put you off. Keep producing your beautiful artwork. Just take up the challenge to create without reference to what seems to be 'forbidden'. *loads of hugs & support sent your way*
Humbug
"You know what the first rule of flying is?... Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." Mal, BDM
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Quote:Actually they do if it's based on original Universal copyright property. If you produce anything based on the Serenity Film from a T-Shirt to a fan fiction, even if all content is created by you personally that content legally belongs to Universal as a derivative work. Seriously this has been tried and tested, some guy produced an image of a spaceship he designed set in the Star Wars universe, Lucasart used it and it turns out they didn't have to pay him anything because they owned it.
Originally posted by embers:
because original artwork by BlueSunShirts, BlackMarketBeagle and 11th Hour does not belong to Universal...
just like Andy Warhol had every right to paint and sell Campbell soup
cans, free expression of art does mean something.
Copyright law, a sin against mankind, gotta love it.
There is however such a thing as fair use. If you had the Serenity logo (for instance) on your Serenity fan site that's fair use. If anyone tells you to bring it down tell them where they can shove that bumper edition of copyright law.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:Quote:
Originally posted by Arbas:
Nonsense they could issue C&Ds and NOT demand retroactive fees, stock and sales info
Possibly. Or possibly the people who bought licenses are claiming damages and are estimating huge sales and Universal needs proof to the contrary. They can't do that without the sales records and showing what a small stock is actually on hand.
The world is not full of fuzzy bunnies and sunshine 24/7. Universal is a corporation. Sometimes they need to do mean things to survive so they can bring us shiny movies. It's the world we live in and I'd rather focus on the positive.
Fair comment but surely to be accurate you'd need complete sales figures sinc the store opened - or to relevent to the licence sales figures since the licence was granted.
Not having a dig here but what is positive about this?
edit - and I have to ask again - what is different about 11th hours setup to warrant the demand for fees when others have only rec'd a c&d order? Or are you saying the action ISN'T being taken by Universal but rather the licence holder - if that's the case we have a simple reaction (you need to KNOW this is accurate info though) we publicise across every medium we have access to what the licence holder has done then boycott the company.
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"action ISN'T being taken by Universal but rather the licence holder - if that's the case we have a simple reaction (you need to KNOW this is accurate info though) we publicise across every medium we have access to what the licence holder has done then boycott the company."
Why punish the honest legal person? Why do we want him to be on the "losing side", when we are not sure he's on the "wrong side"? Read what I just wrote...again...again...once more..I mean, the licensee could very well be a browncoat you assholes.........you fuckheads are starting to sound like reavers instead of BDHs..get a grip.....Well, it's true..........
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Hang on - you're saying the licensee could be a browncoat so we shouldn't penalise them after saying it's the licensee taking the action in the first place also against a fellow browncoat????? What's the difference?
Important point if I remember the wording of my post correctly the actual quote should say something like "If the action ISN'T being taken by Universal but rather the licence holder" That's an important point IF
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Bumping because this should NOT be falling off the main page
I aim to misbehave!
Firefly items:
For lapel pins and badge holder lanyards
e-mail FireflyGal1@hotmail.com
www.outtotheblack.com
www.cafepress.com/fillies
www.cafepress.com/mssquarepeg.com
www.cafepress.com/mrsquarepeg.com
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The point of fact:
Universal has every legal right to do what they are doing (which obviously doesn't make it right, there is a cute, though erroneous, notion among many that the law is about Justice, oh how I laugh).
The reality:
What they are doing is basically what someone in the Industry (a friend of a friend) said they'd never do, because and I quote, "but who would do that, it's just too f**king petty".
Or as SimonWho put it in another thread ( http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=24744#400035):
Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Speaking of admiration for others, may I just tip my evil cap in the direction of Universal's lawyers. I know I dabble with evil as a hobby but it takes a lot of guts to do it for a living (mostly the guts of your enemies but your grandmother's will do in a pinch).
It takes a certain amount of magic to turn around a group of people from sending you letters of praise to calling for a boycott of your entire firm and you pulled it out of the hat. My heartiest congratulations.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Universals Lawyers made me do it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arbas:
Fair comment but surely to be accurate you'd need complete sales figures sinc the store opened - or to relevent to the licence sales figures since the licence was granted.
Not having a dig here but what is positive about this?
edit - and I have to ask again - what is different about 11th hours setup to warrant the demand for fees when others have only rec'd a c&d order? Or are you saying the action ISN'T being taken by Universal but rather the licence holder - if that's the case we have a simple reaction (you need to KNOW this is accurate info though) we publicise across every medium we have access to what the licence holder has done then boycott the company.
The positive side is they're a giant company who gave us a movie. All the lawsuits they've filed in the past built up to us getting a movie. Did you boycott back then? Apparently it's only bad when it's taking away something you want. Rather than when it's giving you exactly what you want.
Also, the difference apparently is that 11th hour did official licensed work before. Apparently providing art for the Serenity RPG. That could bring down all sorts of extra legal hellfire on her. If she signed any sort of contract it probably had plenty of legalease in it. She may have also been given access to Universal copyrighted material to produce the game. They might think she is now using that material in her unauthorized merchandise.
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I'm a lawyer.
Sorry.
I respect the rights of Universal to protect their intellectual property. I believe they have the right to ensure that property they spent money on are protected for their benefit.
But, here is the thing. I don't believe Serenity or Firefly belongs solely to Universal. I don't believe Serenity or Firefly is anyone's property. I believe that when they expressly and impliedly encouraged and condoned fan-advertising and promotion, they abandoned part or all of their exclusive rights in favour of the public.
That would be my defense if it went to court.
But, being from a different legal system, I'd probably lose. But losing doesn't mean I'm wrong.
I believe that we should not stare ourselves blind to the fact that Universal has certain legal rights. Traditional legal concepts cannot and should not prevail against what we are. We have to remember that we are Browncoats. We did what no other fandom in the history of television has EVER done. We kept our 'verse alive against all the odds. We are mighty. We are special. Being a Browncoat for me is not just about being a fan of a TV show. It's about being part of something.....bigger. It's an emotion. It's about an idea that matters. It's a meeting of minds.
It's the slippery slope of fanatisism. But the great thing is. I'm not alone. And that is enough.
So, how many Browncoats are we? How fanatical are you? Or are you reading this and cringing...slightly fearful for my sanity?
So what if Universal "owns" the franchise. We ARE the franchise. Why should they be allowed to hurt us?
This might be the initiative we've been looking for to relight our firefly
Burn the land and boil the sea...
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11th hour:
I cannot begin to imagine how betrayed you feel. You have done so much for this 'verse. Serenity Valley indeed and High Command has asked you to lay down arms.
But that is not Firefly and that is not the Browncoats. We are with you: out in the black and still flyin'. Our loyalty is to each other as much as the BDH. You need anything, don't be shy to ask.
They picked the wrong fandom to try and stomp on and it's really going to bite them in the pocketbook. What are those licences worth now?
__________________________________________
formerly known as RimGirl
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