Angel -- "The Jasmine Arc: Atheism for Dummies"
POSTED BY: Novagrass
UPDATED: Friday, February 20, 2004 21:39
VIEWED: 20661
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So we all know how Joss is the big raging atheist. He has not kept that a big secret at all. But up until now, he's never *really* told a story about faith and the loss of it.
And then there was "Jasmine Arc" on Angel. Never before have I seen such a message of the loss of faith so clearly and blatantly presented in the media, and quite frankly, it's extremely refreshing. Let's look at the facts...
1. Jasmine as God and religion in general. She has promised salvation and appears to possess the power of love. Obviously, to those affected by her spell, she is a deity. But it's clear to the rest of us that she's manipulating everyone. Underneath her beautiful facade lies a rotting demon, a rotting demon that represents the attrocities committed under God's name.
2. Fred as the enlightened atheist. She feels alone and scared in a world of people who are blindly devoting themselves to a corrupt entity. Knowledge has stripped her of her faith... she wishes to go back to the times where she didn't have to think about being alone in the world, where she could be ignorantly happy.
3. The people as the blind, irrational followers. They are ignorant. They irrationally stand up in front of eachother and preach their irrational and emotional testimony. Some cry, some promise to kill the heathen Fred who doesn't believe in the light of Jasmine.
4. Jasmine's "food" as those who's lives were lost to give God and religion more power. She glows with a heavenly radiance after swallowing the souls of her followers.
5. Connor as the devoted worshipper who, no matter how much he knows, still blindly condemns those who see the "truth."
Here, Joss and the writers have crafted the most accurate portrayal of the feelings associated with the loss of faith. At first they are alone and want to go back to being blissfully ignorant, loving the non-existant being in the sky. Then they harbor resentment and pity for those who still believe.
Now, this isn't to say that Joss is preaching... because I honestly don't think he is... plus the story still has to unfold. After the pity there is the respect for religion as a moral force and an anthropological mystery, which I hope is portrayed in the next few episodes. I hope that Joss isn't still bitter and resentful toward the non-atheists out there... 'cause that becomes pompous and preachy. Hell, even if it is a sermon, it's still a heartfelt metaphor... and you gotta respect that whether you agree or not.
--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--
"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon
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I agree with you. The points you make are excellent. I live in Utah and I grow tired of the "Christian" censorship and propaganda I experience. Joss is refreshing!
On a side note, I'm curious how Gina Torres can be a god on Angel, and I've heard Angel talk about Armageddon, but meanwhile, the end of the world is coming thanks to Nathan Fillion and The First on Buffy.
How come Angel doesn't talk about The First? Am I missing something? I've heard Angel is coming to Buffy in the finale. Not sure how the two shows are handling the End of the World at the same time, yet they are fighting different enemies.
Can someone explain to a newbie?
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I think the two shows sort of live in their own universes, except when it's convenient plot-wise for them to intersect.
Radegund
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Oh. Hmm. (scowls)
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I think the original concept would have had both shows following a common line, but the switch of networks may have thrown that off.
Maybe Gina is the physical form of the " bigbad "
After all, gods work in mysterious ways. Even evil ones.
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did the willow crossover not make you think it was the same?
I think this storyline will be resolved before the end of the season. Besides, didn't Gina only sign for 3 eps? Thats what all the news says from beforehand.
I'm pretty sure they're the same universe fully still, just the networks limited how much crossing over they can do.(are they still awkwardly avoiding the word Buffy on Angel? I noticed they didn't use it when Angelus called up Buffy's home, seemed a bit suspicious though not awkward)
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Originally posted by Radegund:
I think the two shows sort of live in their own universes, except when it's convenient plot-wise for them to intersect.
I see it the other way around: The shows take place in the same universe, except when it is inconvenient for the plot.
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I find it interesting that both Angel and Buffy now have very blatant atheist plots going on, with different spins on it.
Caleb is quite clearly portrayed as an athiest ("Do you think I'm God?" "I'm beyond such concepts."), but he's evil as all get-out. So there you have the atheist as the evil, self-centered bastard.
Then on Angel you have Fred, who saw through Jasmine's charade and has now lost her faith. But she is actually doing the right thing, saving everybody from an evil demon.
I wonder if Marti Noxon has anything to do with the difference....
One more thing...
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But up until now, he's never *really* told a story about faith and the loss of it.
Except for Cap'n Tightpants. Actually, he seems to be quite interested in it recently.
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5. Connor as the devoted worshipper who, no matter how much he knows, still blindly condemns those who see the "truth."
Connor has had this problem since his initial return to the Earthly dimension. No matter how much evidence he receives to the contrary he will always choose the myth/lie over the reality before him. Look at his attitude toward Angel over the seasons (always believing Holtz' half truths) and his allegiance to Cordy prior to Jasmine's arrival.
Knowing all this made me nervous when in last night's episode Angel refused to leave the hotel without curing his son of the brainwash.
Connor has yet to prove himself trustworthy to Angel and the cavalry.
mattro
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By the by...
Did anybody else notice the bit at the beginning of the Angel episode where Gina spoke to Jasmine's followers in their native language? She spoke to one young woman about her baby in what sounded like Vietnamese, but could have been Mandarin. I laughed after she did that, thinking, "Well, it's not like she hasn't had practice."
Yeah, I find lots of things funny. Don't ask why.
- T
"Two by two, hands of blue..."
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Originally posted by BlueSunWorshipper:
Did anybody else notice the bit at the beginning of the Angel episode where Gina spoke to Jasmine's followers in their native language? She spoke to one young woman about her baby in what sounded like Vietnamese, but could have been Mandarin. I laughed after she did that, thinking, "Well, it's not like she hasn't had practice."
Yeah. I think it was Mandarin, but I honestly didn't understand a word of it, so I'm not sure....
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Originally posted by Charlie:Quote:
Originally posted by BlueSunWorshipper:
Did anybody else notice the bit at the beginning of the Angel episode where Gina spoke to Jasmine's followers in their native language? She spoke to one young woman about her baby in what sounded like Vietnamese, but could have been Mandarin. I laughed after she did that, thinking, "Well, it's not like she hasn't had practice."
Yeah. I think it was Mandarin, but I honestly didn't understand a word of it, so I'm not sure....
Jasmine did in fact specifically say it was Mandarin! (see the "Gina on Angel" thread).
Radegund
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An interesting side not, the Angel Episode "Magic Bullet" was written (and directed) by co-executive producer Jeffrey Bell. Who worked on the X-Files and turned out some religion themed episodes and, of course, some of the real heavy conspiracy themed episodes on that program, as well.
Keep Flying!
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disclaimer: this would be me venturing into territory that i've tried to stay out of on this board so far because kind of thing tends to cause folk to spontaneously combust. so here goes.
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Originally posted by Novagrass:
So we all know how Joss is the big raging atheist. He has not kept that a big secret at all. But up until now, he's never *really* told a story about faith and the loss of it.
atheism a disbelief in the existence of deity - the doctrine that there is no deity
faith firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
belief a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing.
by Webster's definitions your characterizations vs. faith are bang on. however, i'm of a mind to believe atheists don't generally have the faith to lose in the first place. anyone who says they're an atheist because they don't believe in the Almighty anymore still has the faith. it's just broken or lost. i mean can you really be against something that doesn't exist?
"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal
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by Webster's definition, atheism is the total absence of belief, not the loss of faith. an atheist generally doesn't have the faith to begin with.
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So we all know how Joss is the big raging atheist. He has not kept that a big secret at all. But up until now, he's never *really* told a story about faith and the loss of it.
I would say Joss is an Agnostic (based on his work anyway). An agnostic is someone who thinks it is impossible to know whether or not there is a god. That a person should think out questions of conduct for himself and be held accountable for his own actions. which is a central theme in much of his work.
but, both atheists and agnostic can start out with full faith in whatever religion and then lose that faith.
as for never doing a story about someone having faith then losing it, well, go back and watch firefly and pay attention to Mal.
Keep Flying!
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Originally posted by BRTick:
as for never doing a story about someone having faith then losing it, well, go back and watch firefly and pay attention to Mal.
Mal goes from referring to the Independent reinforcements as angels to forbiding the very idea of God's presence on his ship--if that ain't broken faith, i don't know what is.
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I would say Joss is an Agnostic...is someone who thinks it is impossible to know whether or not there is a god. That a person should think out questions of conduct for himself and be held accountable for his own actions. which is a central theme in much of his work.
that's what I was trying to get across, only you did it much better. i changed my post because of that - i know, bad channain, bad bad - but there's nothing that brews up trouble faster than a discussion of faith and/or religion.
"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal
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Originally posted by Channain:
I would say Joss is an Agnostic...is someone who thinks it is impossible to know whether or not there is a god. That a person should think out questions of conduct for himself and be held accountable for his own actions. which is a central theme in much of his work.
"I'm a very hard-line angry atheist" Whedon Says "Yet I'm fascinated by the concept of devotion..."
http://www.fireflyfans.net/news.asp?newsid=267
Atheist.
--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--
"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon
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Quote:
Originally posted by BRTick:
as for never doing a story about someone having faith then losing it, well, go back and watch firefly and pay attention to Mal.
BRTICK: Ok, I'm sorry I didn't CLARIFY myself. What I meant was a STORY ARC on it, a metaphorical villain arc on Buffy or Angel. Yes, Mal is an atheist, but his story isn't about BEING an atheist. It's a character trait of his, not his story.
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atheism a disbelief in the existence of deity - the doctrine that there is no deity
faith firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
belief a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing.
i'm of a mind to believe atheists don't generally have the faith to lose in the first place. anyone who says they're an atheist because they don't believe in the Almighty anymore still has the faith. it's just broken or lost. i mean can you really be against something that doesn't exist?
Channain: By this logic, when you lose faith in God, or the belief in God, you become an atheist, someone who does not believe in the existance of a God. Because he's an atheist doesn't mean he's always been an atheist, and I'm confused about your differentiation between loss of faith and the breaking of it. In both cases it was once there, so that it can be lost or broken. Broken faith and lost faith are the same thing to me. Though, I suppose, if you lose faith there's the possibility of finding it... but then again, you can repair broken things as well... so I guess I'm back to them being the same thing.
I once believed in God. I no longer do. I am an atheist. The definition of atheism doesn't stipulate that the atheist NEVER belived in God. Most atheists I know have grown up in a somewhat religious environment, and were at least a little faithful in their younger days.
EDIT: Ignore my confusion, the later posts helped me out.
--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--
"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon
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"I'm a very hard-line angry atheist" Whedon Says "Yet I'm fascinated by the concept of devotion..."
okay, so i'll cheerfully stand corrected. can't vouch for BRtick though, who educated us on the agnostics. speaking from personal experience (which is to say, someone who's been there), i'm still of the opinion that angry atheist is just a colorful way to say broken believer.
"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal
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Originally posted by Channain:
i'm still of the opinion that angry atheist is a colorful way to say broken believer.
"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal
Hehe, well whatever terminology you use, let's just leave it at Joss doesn't believe in God, atheists don't belive in God, and The Jasmine Arc is a metaphorical journey through becoming an atheist.
--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--
"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon
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Hehe, well whatever terminology you use, let's just leave it at Joss doesn't believe in God, atheists don't belive in God, and The Jasmine Arc is a metaphorical journey through becoming an atheist.
i can live with that. like Paul Bettany calls himself a "misguided adolescent," which is English for actor. it's all in the interpretation....or JW is an atheist who writes about agnostics? what's that do for ya?
"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal
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The current Atlantic has an article in the beginning section coins a new word I have become fond of: Apatheist. An apatheist is a person who doesn't care about religion all that much one way or another. It might include believers as well as non-believers. Fun idea -- I knew there was a word out there for my religious preference.
But the current story arc on Angel and on Buffy is by no means apatheistic.
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"I'm a very hard-line angry atheist" Whedon Says "Yet I'm fascinated by the concept of devotion..."
http://www.fireflyfans.net/news.asp?newsid=267
Well, I stand corrected. it's interesting that a "hardline" atheist would be so fasinated by faith , devotion ,god,personal morals, etc, and what it means.
Keep Flying!
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The current Atlantic has an article in the beginning section coins a new word I have become fond of: Apatheist. An apatheist is a person who doesn't care about religion all that much one way or another. It might include believers as well as non-believers. Fun idea -- I knew there was a word out there for my religious preference.
HEY! that is a fun idea. i'm a believer (not a trace...of doubt in my mind...) but i've had all manner of objections with religion in general because of all the gorramn rules and prejudices that seem to follow on occasion. like how "true" Christians don't believe you believe unless you're wearing a cross (not a bad thing, mind). i wear a yin-yang pendant, which some uninformed types have taken as evil-paganistic, totally ignoring the idea of balance between light and darkness. plus let me just say it fits the Gemini persona SO well.
this is the kind of broad-scope thinking that goes on when your mother was raised by parents of two protestant religions, baptized by a third and confirmed/married into a fourth...the child becomes an apatheist
"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal
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I'm confused about your differentiation between loss of faith and the breaking of it.
here's my thinking...
lost faith is when someone basically grows away from it. they're aware of it, but don't actively practice it. they'll got to church on holidays, but that's it. it can also be those dark despair times when things are so bad, they can't see the light and often times stop looking altogether.
broken faith is when someone has good reason to be so pissed off at God they deliberately choose to step away from the God path onto a life path of their own. that's not to say they'll automatically end up in the special hell or anything. it's a conscious decision, same as someone who deliberately turns back onto the God path again.
as you say, though, what's lost can be found, and what's broken can be repaired, but here's the twist - humans were given the ultimate gift of free will. what we do with it is strictly up to us.
again, this is simply my point of view. long winters in Minnesota tend to cause all manner of contemplation.
"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal
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Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:Quote:
I'm confused about your differentiation between loss of faith and the breaking of it.
here's my thinking...
lost faith is when someone basically grows away from it. they're aware of it, but don't actively practice it. they'll got to church on holidays, but that's it. it can also be those dark despair times when things are so bad, they can't see the light and often times stop looking altogether.
broken faith is when someone has good reason to be so pissed off at God they deliberately choose to step away from the God path onto a life path of their own. that's not to say they'll automatically end up in the special hell or anything. it's a conscious decision, same as someone who deliberately turns back onto the God path again.
as you say, though, what's lost can be found, and what's broken can be repaired, but here's the twist - humans were given the ultimate gift of free will. what we do with it is strictly up to us.
again, this is simply my point of view. long winters in Minnesota tend to cause all manner of contemplation.
"I'm still flyin'...that's enough." ~ Mal
Ahh, I see where you're coming from now.
And the confusion endeth.
--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--
"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon
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Quote:
Originally posted by BRTick:
Well, I stand corrected. it's interesting that a "hardline" atheist would be so fasinated by faith , devotion ,god,personal morals, etc, and what it means.
Keep Flying!
In my experience, a lot of atheists are interested in faith and related ideas. Some of them become obsessed... a lot of anthropologists dedicate their lives to studying religion despite (or maybe because of) being atheists. Maybe they're trying to discover a new thought, a way to allow them to believe again, because it's very terrifying to feel so alone in the universe.
And I'd watch what you'd say about personal morals. You probably don't mean it the way I'm interpreting it, but religion is not the source of morality. It's sad to believe that the only thing keeping human morality in check is their dedication to a potentially nonexistant ideal. It's much more rational (not to mention comforting) to believe that morality is inherant in human nature (some more than others). Keep in mind that the most immoral attrocities in human existance (the Crusades, Jihhad, the Holocaust, etc...) have stemmed from religious teachings. To say that religion is the source of morality is to ignore the very history of religion at the expense of a belief in the inherent good of humanity.
Again, you probably didn't mean it the way I interpreted it... but I'm in a preachy mood today.
--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--
"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon
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And I'd watch what you'd say about personal morals.
Well,what I meant(kinda), How many times have you heard someone say something is right or wrong because the bible (or whatever religious tome may apply) or their religious leaders say it is right or wrong? Those that carried out the Crusades or Jihad or whatever believe that they are acting in a moral way, that what they are or were doing is right. It would be nice to believe that morality is inherent, and maybe it is, but people can carry out acts other would see as immoral and still believe what they are doing isn’t. When it comes to morals in really comes down to a persons own sense of what is right and wrong, and In the end only that individual can be held accountable for their own actions.
Take Firefly, for instance, the crew carries out acts that most see as immoral (stealing killing, etc.) and yet most of the time, they seem to be doing what they see as right and good to survive.
Keep Flying!
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Quote:
Originally posted by BRTick:
Take Firefly, for instance, the crew carries out acts that most see as immoral (stealing killing, etc.) and yet most of the time, they seem to be doing what they see as right and good to survive.
Keep Flying!
mor·al
*adj. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
*Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
*Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
Nowhere in the definition of morals does it stipulate a religious conviction. I admit that morals are certainly plyable. They aren't definate "this is right and this is wrong" scenarios. Different religions preach different morals... but every religion does preach morality. Take Zen Buddhists, for instance. Zen Buddhism is fundamentally an atheistic religion... there is no belief in a higher power. Are you saying that because they don't conform to Judeo-Christian concepts of god that they are any less moral than you? If you, you're more ignorant that I thought.
What you're saying is that religion shapes us morally. That may be true, only because religion is the basically the only place where most people learn morality (whether it be from family religious convictions, church, or whatever). But who shaped the moral convictions preached by religion? That's right, humans like you and I. Religion is a human-created concept, therefore humans put their ideas of morality and structure into the teachings. You are saying religion shapes humanity, but in reality, humanity is what shaped religion. Your logic that morals are not inherent in humanity is flawed at best. After all where did they come from in the first place?
I am an atheist. My father is an atheist. My uncle, and my sister and on and on and on... all atheists. Does that mean we have looser moral convictions? Certainly not. In fact, if I had to choose the most moral person I know, it would be my sister. Most atheists are moral for morality's sake. Most aren't moral because they fear eternal damnation; Most aren't scared into being moral. Most know the difference between right and wrong as well as the staunchest Christian follower, if not more so. (That is not to say that all atheists are moral, as there certainly are immoral atheists. Just as there are immoral Christians and Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and Hindis)
I am still confused as to your ignorance at not allowing for the possibility of inherent human morality. Atheists are no more or less moral than any religious participant. It's as simple as that. The end.
--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--
"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon
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I am still confused as to your ignorance at not allowing for the possibility of inherent human morality.
I’m, not disallowing for the possibility of inherent morality, we all want to do what is right and avoid what is wrong. But, I think most of our ideas of exactly what is right and wrong are learned, from our parents, society, and, our religion or philosophy or whatever.
Keep Flying!
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Hey. I was a non-registered casual viewer of this site until I read this thread.
I love the site, anyway - so what the hell.
Nice to meet all of you.
I just wanted to insert a clarification in this discussion: the difference between religion and spiritual belief.
I don't support any organised religion really, besides Buddhism, maybe, but people can still always take advantage of an organised system with leaders like that. I do however consider my self laden with spiritual belief, surrounding my body, making it up, and driving these words to pixel.
This quote isn't exact, but you'll get the idea:
"A little philosophy inclindeth one's mind to athiesm, more inclindeth one's mind to spirituality."
-Shakespeare (though it might have been under the pen name of Francis Bacon, as a lot of the more overtly spiritual writings were)
I think this quote sums up my opinion on the matter perfectly. I grew up believing all the 'no different from the apes' jokes/quasi-philosophy, and it was when I decided to dedicate my time to working through life slowly and methodically, using reason and intuition, that I found the answers and proof I needed.
Ah . . . kind of got off on a tangent there.
Religion = someone telling you how to live your life
Spirituality = using your reason to come to know yourself and the world you have found yourself in
You don't know me, son, so let me explain this to you once. If I ever kill you you'll be awake. You'll be facing me. And you'll be armed
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This is why you don't talk about religion and politics. It makes everyone all crotchety and angry. Anyone remember the war discussion?
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Don't mention it Talrius! Shhhh, stay quiet, we've already got some vid ownership problems on another thread that is making people's blood boil.
-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle
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We've already got some vid ownership problems on another thread that is making people's blood boil.
Yeah, I got an e-mail from Debchan over that. You know she pulled all her Firefly grabs because of that.
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I don't know.
I think this discussion was handled pretty cordially - considering how rough it could gotten.
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You're right it's not as bad as other discussions going on. Where people are threating to report others to law enforcemnt. This board is getting kinda violent lately.
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Originally posted by Talrius:
You're right it's not as bad as other discussions going on. Where people are threating to report others to law enforcemnt. This board is getting kinda violent lately.
Remorse breeds violence, after all.
But seriously, I didn't mean to sound angry. Really I didn't. I swear.
Or did I?
--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--
"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon
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Originally posted by orangehorse:
I don't know.
I think this discussion was handled pretty cordially - considering how rough it could gotten.
If it would make you feel better I could call somebody something real awful like "Fox Programming Executive" or something... naw, that would be too mean...
Keep Flying!
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Originally posted by Novagrass:
And then there was "Jasmine Arc" on Angel. Never before have I seen such a message of the loss of faith so clearly and blatantly presented in the media, and quite frankly, it's extremely refreshing. Let's look at the facts...
Sigh...kind of a slow bunch here, aren't yah. This arc is obviously Joss's way of presenting the Anti-Christ, not the effects of the Holy Trinity. I mean if you guys knew what you were talking about like an Atheist such as Joss you wouldn't have made such a blatant mistake. Jasmine has the characteristics of the Anti-Christ not the Christ (which happen to be opposite things in case you didn't know). It's more of a aesthetic representation than a Biblical representation, though. So all the examples that you made should be reversed to equal believers not atheists, agnostics, or apatheists.
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Originally posted by xion47:Quote:
Originally posted by Novagrass:
And then there was "Jasmine Arc" on Angel. Never before have I seen such a message of the loss of faith so clearly and blatantly presented in the media, and quite frankly, it's extremely refreshing. Let's look at the facts...
Who do you think you are to completely disregard my opinion and then condemn and insult the posters to this thread, even as you yourself ignore all evidence I've provided for my observation? Did you read the post further than the initial statement or did you simply react out of irrational emotions? If you had read further, you'd understand my position. If you're observation is so superior, how about detailing it bit further, instead of condemning me and the other posters to this thread. A simple statement of damnation does not a logical argument make.
Now, where does all of this anti-Christ stuff come from? I don't believe we brought up direct allusions to individual religious figures (i.e. Christ). Instead, we (or at least I) associated Jasmine's character as representing the evils of religion (which seems an accurate assumption based on Joss's DIRECTLY STATED atheist beliefs... see an earlier post for more detailed information on this subject). Though, Jasmine may not actually be an evil figure and may be acting out of genuine love for her followers. She may only look ugly, and the story may be a statement on superficiality as well as broken or lost faith.
--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--
"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon
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Here are some articles in which Joss Whedon expresses his opinions about the existence of God:
100 Questions with Joss Whedon (#74 to be specific)
http://www.slayage.com/news/030220-joss100qs.html
Is there a God?
http://www.theonionavclub.com/avclub3837/avfeature_3837.html
Who could you take in a fight?
http://www.theonionavclub.com/avclub3905/avfeature_3905.html
mattro
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Quote:
Here are some articles in which Joss Whedon expresses his opinions about the existence of God
Sweet muscular Jesus!
ha! that gets me every time!
Keep Flying!
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As I was reading this interesting thread, I realized that, when it was posted that Joss was "an angry athiest"- something about that line kept twinging in my mind's side as not sounding right... is there really such a thing as an "angry athiest"?
The pivotal word here is the concept of innate "athiestic anger" - who would they be mad at?
When you don't believe in god, the emotional attitude toward the subject (of whether there is a god) is more along the lines of ..."uh, whatever...."
If there are angry athiests, then surely their anger must be directed at the persistent and relentless prattle of those tireless, prodding believers, (you know who you are... wink wink, nudge nudge) and is not a component of their athiestic belief per se.
As to Joss "challenging God" when things go bad, that's probably just a cursing habit he picked up from his Dad (or Mom).
It's much more satisfying to vent your anger at the "big guy in charge"...somebody such as GOD - hence, personifying him/her, than yelling at the outcome of a series of random events.
"You damned tree! Why'd ya let the wind knock all of your damned leaves off your branches so they could be pulled to earth by the force of gravity thus necessitating me to have spend my Saturday raking the damned yard!!!"
It's just not as satisfying. It doesn't evoke the sense of reckless defiance one gets when one takes the name of a so-called God in vain. The act of cursing is like daring those alleged powers-that-be to strike you down. It's a far more bully thing to do than to say under your breath, "O drats."
Athiestic anger would surely have to be be towards man, not towards the chaos inherent in life, which actually is kinda pretty.
In my view, there's gotta be something running all these fractals, but that's another thread.
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Oh, GOSH, not again....
--------------------------------------------------
DOBSON: I'm supposed to be meeting my wife's sister. I've only got a few days to see her...
ZOE: I wish there was another way...
DOBSON: Oh, no, no. That woman is like a dragon. I mean, I believe she has a tail. If there's any other moons we need to visit, or if we could just
fly very slowly...
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i am an agnosticwell more or less an atheist who is in private a little smug about my beliefs but i am also one whose never been fond of atheists (you know the pretentious gits) who are insulting or cruel to those who posess and profess faith. I am not crazy about fundamentalist of any breed. here's two of my favorite quotes
'Morality evolved to sanctify procreation' Gore Vidal
'the problem with the world today is that fools and fanatics are so sure of themselves while wiser men so full of doubt' bertrand
so what i am saying is sure go out and stop the fear mongers and other haters but leave people what they rely to make life less harsh.
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i am an agnosticwell more or less an atheist who is in private a little smug about my beliefs but i am also one whose never been fond of atheists (you know the pretentious gits) who are insulting or cruel to those who posess and profess faith. I am not crazy about fundamentalist of any breed. here's two of my favorite quotes
'Morality evolved to sanctify procreation' Gore Vidal
'the problem with the world today is that fools and fanatics are so sure of themselves while wiser men so full of doubt' bertrand
so what i am saying is sure go out and stop the fear mongers and other haters but leave people what they rely to make life less harsh.
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As an atheist, I feel somewhat insulted by the statements that we do not have faith. An atheist is not someone who doesn't believe in god, an atheist BELIEVES there is no supreme deity. Just as a christian can never prove to me that his god exists, I cannot prove he doesn't. I have faith that there is no deity. Proving something does not exist is not really possible unless you can be everywhere and everywhen in every dimension. To be a true atheist, you have to have faith. For these reasons I respect everyone's right to believe what they choose, I'd just prefer it if American society extended that respect to me as well.
Well, that was a slap and a tickle!
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If you want some great commentary on the Jasmine story arc, be sure to get the copy of the Angel compainion to Seven Seasons of Buffy. Not sure exactly when it's coming out, but it will likely be sometime this summer. There will be an essay by SF author Steven Harper (DREAMER; NIGHTMARE; TRICKSTER) on the Jasmine story and the biblical parallels in it.
Steven Harper is my husband so that's how I know the essay will be ther. :-)
--Kala
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Originally posted by BRTick:Quote:
"I'm a very hard-line angry atheist" Whedon Says "Yet I'm fascinated by the concept of devotion..."
http://www.fireflyfans.net/news.asp?newsid=267
Well, I stand corrected. it's interesting that a "hardline" atheist would be so fasinated by faith , devotion ,god,personal morals, etc, and what it means.
Keep Flying!
That isn't uncommon. I'm an atheist, but I'm fascinated by religion. Also, faith doesn't just have to be restricted to god or other supposed "higher powers".
--------------------------------
It's sickening how comforting the privacy of the mind can be.
"Bible's broken; contradictions, false logistics. Doesn't make sense." - River
http://stripe.filetap.com
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Quote:
Originally posted by HRHTheDude:
As an atheist, I feel somewhat insulted by the statements that we do not have faith. An atheist is not someone who doesn't believe in god, an atheist BELIEVES there is no supreme deity. Just as a christian can never prove to me that his god exists, I cannot prove he doesn't. I have faith that there is no deity. Proving something does not exist is not really possible unless you can be everywhere and everywhen in every dimension. To be a true atheist, you have to have faith. For these reasons I respect everyone's right to believe what they choose, I'd just prefer it if American society extended that respect to me as well.
That's the stupidest thing I've ever read.
-Steve
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Wow, that was a compelling argument. Kinda sad really. I was hoping for a discussion, gainsaying is just boring. Thanks for making me wait all this time for nothing.
Catcher in the Rye is the stupidest thing I've ever read.
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Quote:
Originally posted by MaTwang:
As I was reading this interesting thread, I realized that, when it was posted that Joss was "an angry athiest"- something about that line kept twinging in my mind's side as not sounding right... is there really such a thing as an "angry athiest"?
I cannot say whether or not Joss is an angry atheist, but I was. I hated God with a passion. My understanding is that I am not alone, I believe C.S. Lewis, G.K. Chesterton and Thomas Merton were all angry atheists prior to their 'conversion'.
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The pivotal word here is the concept of innate "athiestic anger" - who would they be mad at?
When you don't believe in god, the emotional attitude toward the subject (of whether there is a god) is more along the lines of ..."uh, whatever...."
If there are angry athiests, then surely their anger must be directed at the persistent and relentless prattle of those tireless, prodding believers, (you know who you are... wink wink, nudge nudge) and is not a component of their athiestic belief per se.
That is the question. It would makes sense to be mad at the 'fools' who believe, the institution, etc. but angry atheists, like myself have a grudge against God.
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As to Joss "challenging God" when things go bad, that's probably just a cursing habit he picked up from his Dad (or Mom).
Joss did refer to God as 'The Big Sky Bully' in a commentary (for 'The Body' I think).
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It's much more satisfying to vent your anger at the "big guy in charge"...somebody such as GOD - hence, personifying him/her, than yelling at the outcome of a series of random events.
"You damned tree! Why'd ya let the wind knock all of your damned leaves off your branches so they could be pulled to earth by the force of gravity thus necessitating me to have spend my Saturday raking the damned yard!!!"
Maybe one of the sources of belief in God is mankind's tendency to 'imagine' or 'perceive' a cosmic force intentionally thwarting our desires. A number of cultures have beliefs that center around the disbelief in accidents. Everything happens for a reason, and not the pop psychology variant. Bad things happen because of evil spirits, witches (evil ones I assume
) Quote:
It's just not as satisfying. It doesn't evoke the sense of reckless defiance one gets when one takes the name of a so-called God in vain. The act of cursing is like daring those alleged powers-that-be to strike you down. It's a far more bully thing to do than to say under your breath, "O drats."
Though one must admit that it does fly in the face of the argument that belief in God is illogical. If you are going to deny a belief or action on the ground of logic, one would hope that your alternative is to believe and act logically. Though I actually agree with you one this, it is more satisfying to shake your fist at the 'heavens' though I believe it is because we are subconsciously egotistical enough to believe that the PTBs prevented us from accomplishing or getting whatever it was that we are angry about. Hell, I have blamed God for traffic lights changing (and for not changing), how silly is that? I must have a real chip on my shoulder to think that with 6 billion people on the planet, God wants to prevent me from getting to work on time.
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Athiestic anger would surely have to be be towards man, not towards the chaos inherent in life, which actually is kinda pretty.
In my view, there's gotta be something running all these fractals, but that's another thread.
This kind of discussion has always been up my alley, I even took a year of graduate theology before getting to depressed to continue. But overall, I would say that their are at least two kinds of atheists. Those that genuinely believe that their is no God and those that have something against God and religion (or a particular religion).
I was an angry atheist once. While that changed, I no longer believe in mankind, so I guess I am always doubting something.
Arawaen
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Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
by Webster's definitions your characterizations vs. faith are bang on. however, i'm of a mind to believe atheists don't generally have the faith to lose in the first place. anyone who says they're an atheist because they don't believe in the Almighty anymore still has the faith. it's just broken or lost. i mean can you really be against something that doesn't exist?
I don't see this the same way, maybe I am missing something.
Due to the non-corporeal nature of the deity, (or actually most models of divinity) making objective statements on its existence or lack thereof is impossible.
Since you can't touch it, see it, or ask it questions in open public forums, but only inside your own skull, you cannot objectively (i.e. independent of any specific observer) prove God exists. But you cannot prove that God does not exist.
The best atheistic arguments all rely on model dependent thinking. If and only if their particular model is the only one possible, does it exclude God.
This leaves the acceptance as well as the rejection of God as a belief. Both are faith based assumptions that one picks.
Atheism enjoys a bit of popularity, because of the mechanistic and successful nature of science, and the laws of nature revealed via this method of epistemology. Mankind did not set foot on the moon based on faith, but by hard work, study, experimentation, risking and sometimes losing, lives. God did not help.
Some folks elevate science up as a religion, where the two cannot be more distant. Science offers theories, ideas that may be true, but reality, objective reality, is the final arbiter of truth. Not our faith, our hopes or our ideas.
Religion is more authoritarian based, even the free spirited wiccan communities have their favorite writers. (In an eariler era they would have been made prophets and saints.) But the basic idea behind almost any and all religions is "This is the way it is, I said so"
Sometimes this can be a good thing. Being hung up on the decision loop can even get deadly, if you are not careful. Having an answer, even a wrong one, allows you to test out that answer, to move along, see if it is right. Having no answer, well, one gets stuck.
"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arawaen:
Maybe one of the sources of belief in God is mankind's tendency to 'imagine' or 'perceive' a cosmic force intentionally thwarting our desires. A number of cultures have beliefs that center around the disbelief in accidents. Everything happens for a reason, and not the pop psychology variant. Bad things happen because of evil spirits, witches (evil ones I assume
I think this is close. Before the discovery of the various laws of mechanics, when something happened, when things changed, mankind assumed that a similar cause was responsible for it. The field did not plow itself, someone had to do it.
Thus, snow does not fall by itself, or trees grow by themselves. The idea that change was produced or chosen by an intelligence seems to make perfect sense.
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I must have a real chip on my shoulder to think that with 6 billion people on the planet, God wants to prevent me from getting to work on time.
It is sometimes more satsifying to think that one is important or special to a very powerful entity, than to think that one is nothing but an mote. Egoism may be one's only defense against the great abyss of meaningless struggle in an uncaring, insensate universe.
For some reason I am reminded of the immortal words of Ambassador Londo Molari, "In troubled times such as these, you can never have too many gods."
"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"
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I felt that the Jasmine arc was more (or possibly ALSO) about Peace vs. Freedom. It was remarkably relevant to our times. There's a conflict and struggle going on in the wake of terrorism on US soil, what's truly more important? how many freedoms are worth sacrificing to make sure we stay safe from the terrorist attacks? in Jasmine's world, there was true and total harmony, it was Peace. But there was absolutely no freedom at all.
"A man of honor... in a den of thieves!"
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Quote:
Originally posted by metr0man:
I felt that the Jasmine arc was more (or possibly ALSO) about Peace vs. Freedom. It was remarkably relevant to our times. There's a conflict and struggle going on in the wake of terrorism on US soil, what's truly more important? how many freedoms are worth sacrificing to make sure we stay safe from the terrorist attacks? in Jasmine's world, there was true and total harmony, it was Peace. But there was absolutely no freedom at all.
"A man of honor... in a den of thieves!"
Well there was the slight problem in that Jasmine was eating people. But other than that, yeah.
"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"
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'Those who give up freedom for safety deserve neither.' That's a great quote by like Jefferson or something. I think that sums up the Jasmine arc if it is about peace v. freedom.
Atheism. Ah my old friend. I'm a devout atheist and anyone who says that an atheist had no faith to lose is dead off. I wanted to believe, I wanted a mechanism that would give my life meaning and purpose. I wanted the ability to think that when things happen to me, it's out of my control, that someone else guided and scripted the whole thing. But life doesn't work that way. Sh*t happens.
It's a frightening day when you realize, I'm not special. That's what religion is really about, it makes your life meaningful, it gives you a route to continue existing, if only in the vaguest terms. Being an atheist means coming to terms with the fact that, you as an individual, and your life, and everything you do in the grand scheme of things is nothing. You are just an ant in the hill, and when you die you will be replaced. Self reliance and existentialism hit it on the mark, I am in control of this life and anything that happens in it is a direct result of an action, or lack there of, of myself.
Now, as an Atheist I get a lot of crap thrown my way. But I also have my reasons. I studied the faiths, Christianity, Judaism, Isam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc... and at first I thought maybe my issue wasn't with a divine being, but that I had issues with the tight constraints of any one religion, that when it becomes an institution even the purest of intents can become perversed and distant from their original meanings and intentions. Basically the authenticity and truth of any one religion gets clouded by the politics of man. But then I considered, if this is true, wouldn't this divine being somehow show us the error of our ways to allow us to return to a simpler worship, or at least that it would makes it's presence known so as to truely offer the hope that it claims to offer. I mean would a deity allow the bastardization of itself? I think not. In Oz's words though, that may be a radical interpretation of the text.
So then I thought why do people worship? Why do people rely on a deity? What does it bring to their lives? The answer was simple: purpose. Hope breeds purpose, if one believes that things can get better one trys to make them better. This gives guidance and purpose, things get better because people try to make them better, and tada! look everyone it's god's work!
When there is no god to rely on, there is only yourself. Most religions seem to base themselves that when good things happen, God was helping you, but when bad things happen you have somehow spurned god, or have been mislead by evil, and now god is teaching you a lesson. It's the big finger in the sky poo-pooing you for your mistakes. It's like me and my friends say: How come when someone wins an award they thank god, but the losers never blame god? When you are left with yourself, when you screw up, it's completely your fault, when something good happens, it's also your fault. If you fall from a 10 story building and live, it's not because god didn't want you to die, it was chance. The universe is a big giant random probability machine, and once in a while the unprobable becomes probable for you.
Now I have decided for myself that there is no divine being watching over us. The only place I give that there may have been a 'touch' of god is as a first mover. Something putting this whole wacky Earth experiment in motion, something causing a big bang that made the universe become. Technically this makes god an atom. One single atom that's unprobable became probable and blew the roof off the whole damn thing. An atom, the same atom being a piece of every single piece of matter in the universe. All came from one, as nothing can truely ever be destroyed, it just changes form. Technically everything being made of the stuff of this 'god.' But still I do not worship, as this god just is, with no intentions, benificience, nemesis, this is a hands off and MIA god that in a sense destroye
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Atheism... I wanted the ability to think that when things happen to me, it's out of my control, that someone else guided and scripted the whole thing. But life doesn't work that way. Sh*t happens.
You don't need to believe in God to believe that everything is out of your control, guided and scripted by forces that dwarf us. Strict materialism denies any divine intelligence but also denies free will, everything is just mechanical.
Belief in a divine being doesn't imply that 'someone is guiding or scripting the whole thing'. Many traditions accept that 'God' (for lack of a better word) gave his creation freedom, the shit happens because of our choices, our collective choices. The reason certain choices are considered so bad is that they don't simply hurt the individual making them, but spread out infecting the whole community as it were.
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It's a frightening day when you realize, I'm not special. That's what religion is really about, it makes your life meaningful, it gives you a route to continue existing, if only in the vaguest terms. Being an atheist means coming to terms with the fact that, you as an individual, and your life, and everything you do in the grand scheme of things is nothing. You are just an ant in the hill, and when you die you will be replaced. Self reliance and existentialism hit it on the mark, I am in control of this life and anything that happens in it is a direct result of an action, or lack there of, of myself.
It can also be a frightening day when you realize that you are special, not in the sense that you are priviledged (and TOO MANY people practice religion for the reason you mentioned). I have found that most religions are a burden when truely practiced body, mind and soul (though it is a small percentage of any religion's members that does so).
Atheism is such a broad category, just like Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc. The people who fall under its definition can be so wildly different as to be actually closer to their opposition that to their fellows. I am not even talking about denominations, which are finer grained definitions. Some Christian philosophies believe in free will, some believe in predestination. Christian existentialists and atheist existentialists probably have more in common with each other than with a rationalist from either side of the divine existence camp.
Um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm Angry. And I'm Armed.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HRHTheDude:
Wow, that was a compelling argument. Kinda sad really.
Who's arguing? I was just making a comment.
-Steve
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I read some of the answers to the "Is There A God?" question on the site linked obove.
and I really found one that sums up my own thoughts about it.
it's the statement of one Andy Richter, whom I don't know anything about.
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"Andy Richter: I don't think so. I don't know. I don't think about it much, because I figure, what's the point? I don't know if it's agnosticism. There are things that are beyond our comprehension, so why bother? That's sort of my spiritual feelings. I feel like there might be some design. You can't think, like, "Well, how did everything get here?" I don't know. That's how it is. "I don't know, next, now what's for lunch?" When you pray, I don't think anyone's listening. Besides other people, I don't think anyone cares if you murder people or masturbate or shove things up your butt. I don't think there's anybody sitting in the sky watching you. You're on your own. All you have is other people around you, and how you treat them. I actually think that not having a focus on God would make life better, because there would be more of an imperative to be nice to each other. There would be no more brand-name wars over stuff, and pointless arguments over east side/west side, go-fight-win. But I don't know. People have got to worry about something, and there's obviously some kind of anthropological, almost zoological need. This particular animal does this particular thing. Instead of constructing a hive out of paper that they chew up, they create a God. It's just something that they do."
and I never had this urge to chew up a god of any kind.
I was (shortly) attending christian classes in first grade (protestant and catholic, I tried both that are available here in germany) and I came home and told my mother if it was ok that I don't go there anymore because they tell me some bullshit and I really don't have the patience for sitting through this. maybe I never believed in any god because of the way it's usually told to children. maybe if they talked about a noncorporeal higher power somewhere guiding my life I would have at least thought about it maybe being true. but they insisted on talking about this man up in the sky and I just rolled my eyes at them.
and now I really don't want to be guided by any higher power so I hope that there's no god. to me it feels really weird that so many people believe in god. for me it's just not logical to come up with the concept. I know that I can't ever know if there is one (or many) or not so I just don't think too much about it and try to think about things I can know and I can change. same with the big questions: "Why am I here?" "What will happen to me, when I die?" I can't ever know so why bother to think about it? it's not really relevant for my life if I will be reborn or just gone or in some kind of afterlife. I can't prepare for something I know nothing about and my life won't be any better if I come up with a 'believe' just for the sake of it. I just wait and see.
and morality has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. I can learn what's right and wrong without ever having attended one single lesson of any religion. we do have special school classes for the atheist or believers in religions other than the popular ones. they are called "ethics" class and I really loved those. we started out with questions like "What would you do..." and "Why would you do that?" and "Do you think that's right?" and ended it with a look at different philosophers and religions. really inspired us to think and not just do what we were told because you simply weren't told but asked. and I appreciated that when I was a child and I still appreciate it.
I think the world would be a better place if there were no religions and people were taught to think for themselves and act according to that and be responsible for what they do.
might be a strain on some people but maybe not and we all would be surprised of what humanity could achieve if they all were encouraged to think and not obey.
and now you've all figured out that I'm anti-authoritaria
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Quote:
Originally posted by BlackEyedGirl:
Atheism. Ah my old friend. I'm a devout atheist and anyone who says that an atheist had no faith to lose is dead off. I wanted to believe, I wanted a mechanism that would give my life meaning and purpose. I wanted the ability to think that when things happen to me, it's out of my control, that someone else guided and scripted the whole thing. But life doesn't work that way. Sh*t happens.
I really liked this post. I ain't an atheist, I define myself as the opposite of an agnostic. Agnostics doubt there is no God, I doubt that there isn't one. If that makes any sense, welcome to my world.
I hang with pagans alot, mostly because paganism is still such a generic rubric that can allow any theological belief. Allows me the freedom to sort out the answers myself, rather than sit quietly and have it handed to me.
As for "meaning" and "purpose", these are not real things. These are mental constructs. When you ask what the meaning of something is, what it represents, or stands in for, you (well, I at any rate) have to ask, "Meaning to who? In whose mind does this mean that?"
The same goes with purpose. Both concepts inherently imply some intelligence. And then the question becomes which intelligence, and more importantly, which intelligence whose meaning should be used.
In another thread there was discussion of the Civil War. The Confederate flag is to some seen as a symbol of racism. To others, a symbol of state's rights, or rebelling against authority, with the racist concept stripped clear. Same image, two different meanings.
So who is right? Unfortunately, right don't enter in to it. In the minds of some, that flag means one thing. That is a fact. In the minds of others, it means something completely different. That is also a fact, and both groups will act as if the flag means exactly what they think it means, because to them, it does mean what they think it means.
[Same can be said of the swastika. P.J.O'Rourke talks about a trip to India, when he sees a logo for one of the national political parties, comprising a swastika, an om, and a second swatiska. To western eyes, it looks pretty odd. P.J. interpreted it as "Seig Heil, Inner Peace, Seig Heil"]
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I believe that there doesn't have to be a why, because I think the answer is, we just are.
Well I ain't so negative as that. I got a brain, which means I can create my own meaning, or purpose. We may just be, but so?
We don't live in isolation, and the universe works the way it does. And is completely insensate to my desires, wishes, hopes or wants. I do have to figure out how this world works. (The next, I figure there will be plenty of time for that later.) The reason for that is to get the universe to do what I want, create the effects from my actions that I find desirable, beneficial, and keeps me from getting killed.
So, figure out what you want to do, and figure out how the 'verse works. Then once you got those two, you can figure out how to get from where you are, to where you want to go.
"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
I think the world would be a better place if there were no religions and people were taught to think for themselves and act according to that and be responsible for what they do.
Not so sure about that. I will note that early Americans were for the most part Christian Protestants of one stripe or another. Quakers, Puritans, Baptist, etc. From those various Protestant traditions, (well Protestantism in general) the concept of individual freedom and rights came about.
Do you really think any power structure would allow that to happen, if that power structure were not, at least conceptually or rhetorically, beholden to some divine authority?
Governments and politics come about because you have a bunch of folks all trying to accomplish similar goals, like not getting eaten by lions. To coordinate something like defenses, someone has to be put in charge. Or else, someone with the biggest guns and the will to use it, declares himself Leader, and force everyone to do their bidding.
Along the way, the "divine right of kings" came about. Which was one way to keep the aristocracy under the influence of the Church (notably in western tradition, the Catholic Church). This proved to be more beneficial than declaring the Emperor God, as that put an authority over the king.
Also, out of the Protestant Revolution, (and the various wars fought over the issue), we ended up with the concept of freedom of religion. Your interpretation of the Bible may be just as right as mine, even if your interpretation is that I am completely nuts. But we can tolerate each other, agree to disagree, and live happier.
What this does in turn, is again, give folks the freedom to listen to what the divine tells them personally. To figure out moral questions, meaning and purpose of life, etc. Discuss, debate, and all that jazz, and in the process improve on how we think the universe works, and thereby figure out ways to provide for more and more of our desires.
Why is it western culture has spread, has shown itself to be so successful, while much of the rest of the planet has lagged behind? Technically, economically, politically, militarily, and culturally, the west came up with a conceptual framework that has proven more successful, and faster at achieving that success, than any competitors. I don't think anyone can argue some kind of racial superiority, so it must be some cultural factors that got us where we are today.
Religious tolerance leads to tolerance in other areas of thought. Selecting your own congregation's deacons, (Presbyterians) or even your own pastor (Congregationalists) leads to picking your own leaders in other areas, such as political governments. Even if you "know" the One True Way, it is the tolerance of all those folks who are simply mistaken, (but maybe they might have a good point here and there) that leads to developments that improve your lives, as well as those of the heathens.
"Knowing" God sees mankind as special, instead of just an animal or "biot" (a biological robot. Does exactly what it is programmed to do), well, its a great self esteam booster for some. And can lead you to try things that otherwise you would not. Thinking one is nothing, that whatever you do does not matter, well, that is not good for getting things done.
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and now you've all figured out that I'm anti-authoritarian at heart. I hate being told because I believe in myself and the power of my own mind and the judgement of my own conscience.
This is the ultimate irony as I see it. This very anti-authoritarianism is a direct result of religious influences and thinking. Would we have the Internet, if Martin Luther had not nailed those complaints to the church door? Or if the Catholic church decided that "thou shalt not kill" did not apply to this apostate heretic? (Granted they did try for some time, but the weight of the Protestant Revolution kind of forced that back. It was losing them buns in the seats, and cutting into to the tithes they were collecting.)
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I'm not really sure what to answer. I don't think I (or any other human being) need the 'knowledge' (that is exactly _not_ knowledge but believe) of a god that loves them (and I never saw the christian god as a 'loving' one, much too much hate and violence in the bible for it, too much commandments and too little encouragement to think on your own and decide for yourself) to find out that humans are something other than animals or maschines. I believe us thinking about anything is what makes us different but I don't believe it makes us superior, just different.
I don't need a god to tell me what I should do and I sure don't need one to find meaning in my life. we can find meaning in any number of things to do. causes to support. friends to help. loved ones to make happy. kids to raise. even businesses to run. whatever. I don't see any need for a god there but that's just me obviously. I can acknowledge myself for what I am without being created by god and loved by god and planned by god. I know that I exist because my parents wanted a child and they are proud of me and they love me and so do my friends and they all do it because I am who I am and that's what I cherish and live for.
I'm not sure where we would be without christian religion and it's really hard to speculate. maybe the same people would have come up with the same ideas of freedom if there was no church to oppress them. the government would have done that on its own pretty effectively I think. it's about the same fight: freedom of thought. if the rules come from the church or the government doesn't matter that much, does it?
I don't know why we western cultures are the 'elite' nowadays. I don't even believe it really. again not superior but simply different. I'm not into being overly proud of myself or my country or my culture or whatever. humility is something I value greatly in a human being, because I think we really don't deserve to act all superior to everyone and everything else. maybe we have more materially because the country we come from has good natural resources and we manged to use them early on and trade and learn and develop.
I'm no history buff and what we learn in history lessons over here in germany greatly varies from what you learn in the US. so we probably have not much common knowledge to draw from, even if I should know more about Luther than you but I really don't. I probably know more about the roman empire than I know about the US but then again maybe not but the focus is a different one at least. we look at the US in a totally different light than you do. we even look at ourself much more from the outside in. it's our way of viewing and dealing with being german and having to live with ancestors that made big mistakes none of us can change and none of the others will ever forget. we simply are not proud to be german anymore because that's what lead to the holocaust. we are tought to be ashamed and we don't really get whatfor because we are new people that have done nothing wrong. so we are a bit cynical and seem to view everyone and everything from the outside. and I think it becomes us, it sure becomes me. I will never own a flag of any country and I will never judge people for what their grandparents did. I'll only frown at them if they are proud of their countries achievements and they know as well as I do how those 'achievements' were obtained. we all have bad history but some of us acknowledge it as such and others gloss it over. having acknowledged your own countries bad history you get to a state of expecting the same from everyone else. so it's good in a way to come from a nation with obvious bad history because you learn early on what to be proud of and what not. personal achievements seem to fall into category one whereas simply being born in a specific country or of a specific race or religion falls into category two.
but again that's not really on topic anymore. I can't really argue what we would be like if we never believed in god because it's just not that easy to tell. believing in god seems to be some
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Originally posted by Idefix:
I will never own a flag of any country and I will never judge people for what their grandparents did. I'll only frown at them if they are proud of their countries achievements and they know as well as I do how those 'achievements' were obtained. we all have bad history but some of us acknowledge it as such and others gloss it over. having acknowledged your own countries bad history you get to a state of expecting the same from everyone else. so it's good in a way to come from a nation with obvious bad history because you learn early on what to be proud of and what not. personal achievements seem to fall into category one whereas simply being born in a specific country or of a specific race or religion falls into category two.
Idefix
It's too bad Americans are not taught about the mistakes of our forefathers. I, for one, love my country and my flag, but I am keenly aware of whose backs were broken to build it into what it is. I see the flag as representing the Constitution, not the government, therefore I am proud of it. The U.S. government has done many bad things, several as bad as anything the German government did. The point is to learn from those mistakes, which Americans are not allowed to. The subject of Native Americans is kind of glossed over, as is the subject of slavery. (BTW - the Civil War was not fought to free the slaves, that was just a brilliant military tactic to incite insurrection.) The U.S. helped the U.K. overthrow Iran's democratically elected leader over an oil company, put Sadaam Hussein in power, gave him weapons to gas his own people, then sold weapons to his enemy. Yet we have the nerve to ask, "Why do they hate us?" We have been tinkering with Mideast politics for over 50 years, someone just finally tinkered back. I think the U.S. has a lot to learn from Germany and the rest of the world, especially humility.
Can you believe Ashcroft had the nerve to warn us about the dangers of corruption in the government? Who does he think he works for?
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Originally posted by Idefix:
I'm not really sure what to answer. I don't think I (or any other human being) need the 'knowledge' (that is exactly _not_ knowledge but believe) of a god that loves them (and I never saw the christian god as a 'loving' one, much too much hate and violence in the bible for it, too much commandments and too little encouragement to think on your own and decide for yourself) to find out that humans are something other than animals or maschines. I believe us thinking about anything is what makes us different but I don't believe it makes us superior, just different.
Ah, but this is the 21st century. You have to admit that you are a product of 5 thousand years of recorded history and culture, as well as what else came before that. Maybe in today's world, you don't. But what about earlier?
The big reason atheism has its somewhat mainstream status is due to the sucess of the scientific method. But that success would not exist if the Catholic Church had tried to argue against it, and the Aquinine split between practical and revealed knowledge was not created.
And again, there is the idea that the universe is God's creation. We often try to discern the thinking of artists by analysing their artwork. Thinking of the entire verse as one massive kinetic sculpture, means one can divine the thinking of God from observing and learning about how the universe works.
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I'm not sure where we would be without christian religion and it's really hard to speculate. maybe the same people would have come up with the same ideas of freedom if there was no church to oppress them. the government would have done that on its own pretty effectively I think. it's about the same fight: freedom of thought. if the rules come from the church or the government doesn't matter that much, does it?
Actually I think one can see what the world would be like. At the risk of sounding bigoted, I would like to point out the difference in technical progress between Europe (and America, commonalities in culture here, although there is some problems here in that America had a large contingent of dissenters from European authority) and China, or the Arab world. They've lagged behind Europe technically and in the concept of freedom, well... take a look sometimes.
The idea of freedom is dangerous to a political power structure. And because of that, without some higher authority to appeal to, any government is going to have to stamp out the concept, in order to protect their own phoney balony jobs.
Democracy is highly chaotic and unpredictable. And the wars between Athens and Sparta illustrates the flaws associated with the concept of democracy, how subseptiable it is to a more totalitarian state.
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I don't know why we western cultures are the 'elite' nowadays. I don't even believe it really. again not superior but simply different. I'm not into being overly proud of myself or my country or my culture or whatever. humility is something I value greatly in a human being, because I think we really don't deserve to act all superior to everyone and everything else. maybe we have more materially because the country we come from has good natural resources and we manged to use them early on and trade and learn and develop.
No, its ideas. Natural resources don't mean anything if you don't get up off your butt and do it. And that includes the most important resource in the verse, that grey stuff between your ears.
And if you don't think you can, or should, for whatever reason, you won't.
What is the difference between Hong Kong, and the rest of China? East and West Germany? North and South Korea? In each case the place with the greater amount of individual freedom has been far more successful by any objective standard, than its counterpart. Hong Kong had nothing in the way of natural resources. It did inherent England's concept of freedom, and that really made all the difference.
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I will never own a flag of any country and I will never judge people f
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Its not that we ain't taught or are ignorant of the sins of our fore fathers. Its just that:
1) we ain't them. We got too many sins of our own to worry about ones we had no hand in committing. They're dead and, if there is a Heaven, well either they are there or not. Either way, we ain't guilty of stuff that happened before we were born.
2) Nothing America has done has been qualitatively worse than what anyone else was doing at the same time, or had done in the past. (And some are still doing today) Peroidic Hun invasions, Religous wars throughout Europe, slavery. You want to compare sins, there are too many other places that have done far worse.
3) All in all, America has been pretty good. You can sit there and chalk off bad things time after time after time, but when you compare it all the good this country has done, well, the balance is on the good side.
4) We've learned from our mistakes in the past. We've grown. We ain't killing indians no more, slavery is done and over. (And yes, the Civil war was about slavery. Look at the Declaration of Secession from the Confederate states. When the Southern states say they are leaving over slavery, well, you gotta believe that such is the case.)
5) And probably most important, a lot of the folks who are trying to remind us how bad we are, seem to have not so hidden agendas. "If those dumb American would only avail themselves of our wise council." etc. Frankly, we don't trust you.
One of the big reasons why Martin Luther King was successful in his bid for civil rights, was his ability to appeal to America's self image, the goodness that Americans saw in themselves and their country. Not by telling them that America suck eggs on toast.
If he had, we would have simply showed him the door. Its a free country, and anyone is free to leave it any time they please.
And there is a difference of outlook or world view apparent here. American is forward looking. We're a young culture, relative to the old nations of, well, the rest of the planet. We are more worried about what to do NOW, and Tomorrow, than all the sins and flaws in yesterdays actions. There is nothing one can do about the past, except learn from it, and move on.
"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"
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I don't think what you talk about and what I talk about are the same things. I talk about a society without believe in god or gods whatsoever and that's as far as I know never been tried because there simply are no nations that are atheist as a whole.
so comparing western cultures to arabic is just comparing christian believe in islam believe. and I think we do better nowadays because we got rid of some of that believe whereas the arabs stick to it with a lot of passion. their believe is what keeps them backwards in a way, isn't it? that was what I wanted to say at least. what we agree on is lack of freedom most often leads to less happyness for the people. that's why germany got reunited 14 years ago.
kommunism tried to discourage religious believe but I think it never really succeeded. I know eastern germans are christian the same as western germans are. maybe even more so just because.
I'm still not really convinced that religion or believe in god is the difference. so natural resources aren't important nowadays but they were important a few hundred years ago. now we live in something called the "age of service/information" or whatever it's called in english. so manpower and ideas seem to be the main assets now. it's true that you can have everything and no motivation do make something out of it and if you just sit on your butt you won't get rich. but is believe in god the only possible motivator for freedom?
and then again maybe getting rich isn't what it's all about for some people. it's a very non-american thought but maybe some poeple are more happy living a more simple live without the strive for wealth and glory. flying to the moon isn't everyones dream. I think what we all have in common is the need to be happy but what that entails is quite different for different people. and so the most precious thing for everyone would be freedom to choose. but having someone else choose for you only stings when that someone chooses something you wouldn't have. so sometimes the majority doesn't rebel because they would have chosen the same way to be happy anyways and that's what makes a government/religion or other system designed to take your freedom away a working one. I'm not sure what believe in god has to do with that concept.
and I know for a fact that I don't know anybody here in germany who thinks america is a better place to live in right now than germany (ok, I know soemone who actually lives over there at the moment and I haven't talked to her in a while but she's coming back this year, so...). we hate our own government with a passion even though the alternative isn't appealing either and the economical situation over here isn't what it should be but we wouldn't want to switch places with you.
me and my friends might talk about going abroad somewhere. maybe the UK, maybe some skandinavien country, australia, wherever, it's just talk mostly. but the USA is really not on the top of the list of anyone I call a friend. and don't ask for reasons because there are too many people that don't want to hear them and I'm really no politics expert either and don't want to fight anyone. it's more a general feeling of not wanting to be part of that nation. not feeling save and comfortable and in good conscience. it's not all our dream to go to the land of endless possibilities and be rich and famous and whatever. we can see the flaws in your society from over here pretty well and sometimes they even outshine the merrits. and sometimes we even believe our own is better.
see it as just a different perspective. be happy with what you have but know that others are happy with what they have too and they don't look up to your country and see the garden of eden. some see the extreme opposit of it. and these some are not all terrorist trying to kill innocent people or fanatics with their eyes blinded by some doctrine. lots of europeans don't want to follow in americas footsteps more than necessary...
...but we still do: we even got reality TV over here nowadays. and we do blame you for it *grin*.
and I reall
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Originally posted by Idefix:
I don't think what you talk about and what I talk about are the same things. I talk about a society without believe in god or gods whatsoever and that's as far as I know never been tried because there simply are no nations that are atheist as a whole.
Well, here is the thing. The various belief systems, religions as well as more atheistic philosophies, get co-opted by whoever the powers that be are. Local potentates and such. So in one sense I do think looking at the various cultures does at least indicate where things might have gone.
I mean take a look at Plato's Republic. The whole concept of philosopher kings just begs for some strong man to make that plan a reality. While the philosopher may not be king himself, the power behind the throne can be a pretty cushy job. And less apt to get one knocked off.
Each religion has had their hand at political power. Some more obvious and direct than others. But really, what a religion is, is essentially a philosophy, a world view that assumes some divine agency of one type or another. Remove that assumption, what are you left with?
In most instances, morality, politics, economics and social theories. How folks "should" interact with each other.
I see a monopoly of the use of force as inevitable in any conscious social structure. Sooner or later, the guy with the biggest guns takes over, if the system is not set up to prevent it. When that power takes control, he is going to adopt a world view that will ensure he stays in power. Whether you call it "divine right of kings" or something else does not matter that much. Its the effect of the philosophy has on culture and more importantly, his place in the political structure.
Now, some of this is done with the best of intentions, the idea that their philosophy is really better. But the selfish element is still a problem. Lenin may have read every word Marx wrote, and may have believed it with all his heart mind and soul (?), but Marxism still kept him in power.
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so comparing western cultures to arabic is just comparing christian believe in islam believe. and I think we do better nowadays because we got rid of some of that believe whereas the arabs stick to it with a lot of passion. their believe is what keeps them backwards in a way, isn't it? that was what I wanted to say at least. what we agree on is lack of freedom most often leads to less happyness for the people. that's why germany got reunited 14 years ago.
I think this is a good point. It is the lack of freedom that has held back, not just arabic culture, but also almost all non-western cultures on this rock. It is the presence of government recognized freedom that spurs and encourages risk taking, and cultural and technical advancement, increasing the happiness of the most folks. So the question is, where does this idea of individual freedom and rights come from, especially when it is antithetical to the existing political power structures? How do you create it out of nothing?
A co-worker one time said something that has stuck with me. Sometimes having a wrong answer is better than no answer at all. We can sit here and debate, argue, discuss almost any issue we want. We can disagree about many things. But, unless we come to some kind of agreement, we're stuck. Nothing gets done, because we don't know what to do.
Once you have an answer, even if it is wrong, this moves the process forward. Then one can take actions based on that answer, whereas without one, with disagreement and indecision, nothing happens.
If the answer is wrong, actions taken based on that answer will yeild consequences that were unexpected. Thus showing the answer was wrong. If the answer was right, then the consequences of that action will indicate that as well, as the consequences end up what we did expect.
The concept of God is a great discussion ender. "God says" may not be a logical argument, but then it don't have to be. It provides an answer, which allows you to take actions which result in
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