Handy grammar guide

POSTED BY: PhoenixRose
UPDATED: Friday, August 17, 2007 18:08
VIEWED: 25527
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PHOENIXROSE

Wednesday, August 2, 2006 8:10 AM

From your friendly neighborhood PhoenixRose comes her handy guide to grammar! Here I outline the difference between words that sound or look the same and give a few tips on sentence structure. These are mostly based on the most common mistakes I see in BSR fanfic, and I thought there might be some folk who would appreciate a few pointers.
I keep updating, so check back if you feel like it.
Everything can be checked and expanded upon at www.dictionary.com
Here we go:

You’re = you are. As in "You’re a writer." or "You’re a Firefly fan!"
Your = possessive term. As in "This is your story." or "That is your boxset of Firefly."
Yore = past, history. As in "Days of yore."

There = description of location. As in "It is over there." or "There it is."
They’re = they are. As in "They’re not here." or "They’re not yours."
Their = possessive term. As in "That is their house." or "This is their problem…"

Too = also, as well. As in "Me too!" Also used as a descriptive term of something excessive or emphatic. As in "This is too much." or "I will too do this!"
To = descriptive of direction "Went to the store." Also if it’s regarding anything "An answer to a letter."
Two = 2

Advice = the noun. As in "Anyone have any advice?." or "I need your advice."
Advise = the verb. "To advise". As in "I want you to advise me." or "I must advise you..."

New = recent, not old. "He bought a new set of Firefly because his old disks were worn out."
Knew = past tense of "know". As in "She knew there was trouble when she heard shots fired."

Quit = to stop, to desist. As in "He wants to quit smoking."
Quite = really, actually. As in "I am quite sure about this." Can also mean to a high degree, as in "It's quite good." Usage note Eloisa has informed me that 'quite' can be used a bit differently in the UK. Much the same way as those in the US sometimes use 'rather' it can be sarcastic in its tone so that it means "slightly", "mostly", "sort of" or "very" depending on tone and context. See her posts below for more nuance.
Quiet = silent. As in "Please be quiet, I'm trying to think."

It’s = it is. As in "It’s a crying shame that Firefly was cancelled." Also used for it has, as in "It’s rained every day this week."
Its = possessive term. As in "The Alliance retracted its statements."

Lose = to suffer loss. As in "The Independents were sure the Alliance would lose the war."
Loose = not tight. As in "Her shoes were loose because they were a size too big."

Loss = the state of being deprived of or of being without something that one has had "The loss of a friend" "It's their loss" etc.
Lost = past tense of 'lose'. "They lost the game." Also 'to be lost' is an adjective: "You're lost in the woods."

Hon = short for honey. As in "See you later, hon."
Hun = a barbarous or destructive person; an invader. Attilla the Hun. Was also used as a disparaging term for Germans during the World Wars. I cannot stress enough: This is an insult. Please stop using it as a term of endearment or short for 'honey'.

Poor = meagerly supplied or endowed with resources or funds "A poor family applied for welfare. " "The area was poor in minerals. " Also of an inferior, inadequate, or unsatisfactory kind "He suffered from poor health."
Pore = to read or study with steady attention or application "She pored over the manuscript. " Also a minute opening or orifice, as in the skin or a leaf, for perspiration, absorption, etc. "Sweat streamed from his pores. "
Pour = to send (a liquid, fluid, or anything in loose particles) flowing or falling, as from one container to another, or into, over, or on something: "I will pour a glass of milk." or "She poured water on a plant. "

(Thanks to Squish!)
Then = at that time. As in "I was still in school then." Or "Come at noon; I'll be ready then."
Next in time, space, or order; immediately afterward. As in "I watched the late movie and then went to bed."
In addition; moreover; besides. As in "It costs $20, and then there's the sales tax to pay."
Used after but to qualify or

NANITE1018

Wednesday, August 2, 2006 10:54 AM

Thank you PhoenixRose. Those are really common mistakes on the 'net. Especially "your" instead of "you're". That one always annoys me.

HAWKMOTH

Wednesday, August 2, 2006 10:56 AM

Excellent!

Care to borrow my guide to punctuating dialogue?

http://words-in-flight.livejournal.com/14637.html#cutid1

I also suggest a reminder on the proper spelling of character names.

PHOENIXROSE

Wednesday, August 2, 2006 11:21 AM

You're quite welcome, Nanite! I know, they annoy me too. Just doing my part to bring down the annoyance level...
Excellent guide, HawkMoth!
OK, character names, if needed:
Zoë Alleyne Washburne
Hoban "Wash" Washburne
Malcolm Reynolds
Inara Serra
River Tam
Simon Tam
Jayne Cobb
Shepherd Derrial Book
Kaywinnit Lee Frye - Kaylee

"Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. A language that also has a grammar can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them."

HAWKMOTH

Wednesday, August 2, 2006 7:08 PM

Thanks, PhoenixRose.

(Although I'm pretty sure it's "Alleyne" for Zoe, and I know it's "Frye" for Kaylee.)

And thank you, because it can't be said often enough:

Shepherd!

DAYVE

Wednesday, August 2, 2006 7:23 PM

....i feel as though I've been transported back in time...back to Ms. Newsome's 8th grade english class..... but an english class like no other on this earth.... an english class in...The Twilight Zone....

i'm just glad no one is griping about bad punctuation, for i am Dayve...King of Grammatical Errors... he who uses too many dot dot dots

HAWKMOTH

Wednesday, August 2, 2006 7:31 PM

If PhoenixRose gives me permission to share her thread, I'd be happy to post some punctuation rules here!

PHOENIXROSE

Thursday, August 3, 2006 3:35 AM

I looked up the name spellings in about three different places, and they all said "Allayne" and "Fry". I'll see if I can find some official place that has all their names. Or you can. And if so, well, I'll change it.
Well, you posted your link to your guide, and that's shiny. If you want to post a few punctuation rules, I have no problem with that.

And hey, I'm way more efficient than any English class! English classes for years and a lot of it is summed up in that one page of text at the top of the thread. Pretty sad.
(I've actually pasted it into a document and it's four pages. But still!)

"Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. A language that also has a grammar can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them."

HAWKMOTH

Thursday, August 3, 2006 4:05 AM

Referencing the Serenity Official Movie Magazine (as it's what I've got at hand at this moment...):

"Zoe Alleyne Washburne" (Did we see Zoe's dossier in the movie, when the Operative was researching the crew? Something that could be zoomed on the DVD?)

"Kaywinnet Lee Frye" (Although Zoe and Wash's last names were a mystery until the movie came out, "Frye" was right out of the script for Shindig back in the day).

You have awesome summing up powers!

LEIASKY

Thursday, August 3, 2006 5:13 AM

Excellent post. I'm sure it will be very helpful! I've definitely made some of those mistakes before.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

PHOENIXROSE

Thursday, August 3, 2006 7:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HawkMoth:
You have awesome summing up powers!

OK, names are changed, things are shiny, and I'm glad to be doing good works!

If anyone has any questions or are fuzzy on word usage not covered here, please feel free to ask! I will be editing and adding anything I think of, and I'm happy to answer specific questions.

...My mom says I'm a frustrated English teacher.

"Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. A language that also has a grammar can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them."

HAWKMOTH

Thursday, August 3, 2006 12:07 PM

I know just where you're coming from--I taught English once upon a time and set up a grammar guide* page out of frustration when I was in ST:Voyager fandom. You really did hit on all the worst "offenses" in your first post.

(*Known as "DangerMom's Handy-Dandy Grammar Guide!"

Here's an excellent source for all writers:

Common Errors in English: http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/errors/errors.html

PHOENIXROSE

Thursday, August 3, 2006 3:15 PM

Major updates have been added to main post! Just... thought I'd declare that. Keep seeing things that get mixed up and annoying. Gets rid of some itchy frustration, really, to have a place to post "No, it's like this!" and hopefully have people appreciate it.

"Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. A language that also has a grammar can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them."

DESERTGIRL

Thursday, August 3, 2006 3:28 PM

Great addition for us writers. These are all things that spell check does not catch. I for one get so wrapped up in the story as it is coming out that what gets typed isn't necessarily the right word.

Here’s what I have been wondering.

The crew tends to drop g’s from their words as in wonderin and thinkin. Should that g be replaced with a ‘ ?

I seem to remember from creative writing class (a very long time ago) that in dialogue. Each new speaker starts a new line.

What I don’t remember is:

1. Do I remember correctly that if a second PP is needed by the same speaker quotations are not used at the end of the first PP but are used again at the start of the second.

2. What if you want to add a tag onto that PP such as "Ching-wah tsao duh liou mahng," Mal slamed his cup down on the table.

or "Inara you have got to stop that your driving me crazy.

Mal picked up the tea cup to throw at her. "Put your cloths on."

2. And lastly. If you put a tag in the middle of a dialogue PP should you really start a new line when the dialogue picks back up, even if it is the same speaker?

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, August 3, 2006 4:13 PM

PR -

Can you add two of my punctuation pet peeves?

Use of semicolons (;) versus commas (,) - semicolons separate what could be complete sentences!

And punctuation with quotes... it makes me crazy!! Don't use a period, as in:

"I'm so hot." said Mal. WRONG!!!

These are right:

"I'm so hot," said Mal.
"I'm so hot," Mal said.
"I'm so hot!" yelled Mal.
"I'm so hot." Mal scratched his nose while he spoke.

Desertgirl - I'm slow - what do you mean by tag and PP?

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

DAYVE

Thursday, August 3, 2006 4:29 PM

I would be eternally grateful to any educator (primary or secondary - English or otherwise) who could effectively teach the proper conjugation of the verb " to See"...

If I hear one more overpaid athlete (or anyone else), give an interview and say “I seen you at Wal-Mart, or I seen this or I seen that….”
Well, it just really bugs me, is all I’m saying.

HAWKMOTH

Thursday, August 3, 2006 11:00 PM

Good one to point out, MAL4PREZ.

>>"I'm so hot," said Mal.
"I'm so hot," Mal said.
"I'm so hot!" yelled Mal.
"I'm so hot." Mal scratched his nose while he spoke. <<

What also needs to be emphasized is that verbs and pronouns (and articles) used thusly are not capitalized, which is usually an error seen with the improper use of commas and quotation marks. Plus, using commas to set off names when someone is directly addressed:

"What's wrong, Mal?" asked Zoe.

"I'm so hot," he replied.

"Kaylee, check the life support settings," the first mate ordered.

"Sure, Zoe, I'll get right on it," she replied.

DESERTGIRL

Friday, August 4, 2006 5:27 AM

Sorry should not abraviate. PP stands for paragraph.

By tag I mean what happens outside the dialogue. Such as:

"Give me the money," he said while putting his hand on his gun.

'he said while putting his hand on his gun'is what I would call a tag for dialogue.

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, August 4, 2006 8:01 AM

desertgirl:
Yes, it would be proper to replace a dropped "g" with an '. This can make for some strange looking sentences.
"I was just sayin'," said Jayne. Looks weird, yet is correct.
Yes, when a second paragraph of dialogue is used for the same speaker, you do not put quotes at the end of the old one, but you do put quotes at the beginning of the new one. This shows that someone is still talking, but it's still the same person as before.
This: "Ching-wah tsao duh liou mahng," Mal slamed his cup down on the table.
Would actually be written like this: "Ching-wah tsao duh liou mahng." Mal slammed his cup down on the table. (could also have a "!" at the end)
This: "Inara you have got to stop that your driving me crazy.

Mal picked up the tea cup to throw at her. "Put your cloths on."
Would actually be written like this: "Inara you have got to stop that, you're driving me crazy." Mal picked up the tea cup to throw at her. "Put your clothes on."
So no, if there's a tag like that in the middle, you usually wouldn't start a new line, unless the tag you insert does not have to do with the character who is speaking.
For example:
"Inara, you've got to stop that!"
Inara flinched.
"You're driving me crazy!" Mal continued.

And yes, semicolons. I've always thought of them as something like a "soft" period. They can be used to break up run-on sentances and other handy things like that. I love them...

"Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. A language that also has a grammar can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them."

MAL4PREZ

Friday, August 4, 2006 2:53 PM

desertgirl,

Yeah - what PR said!

Funny, I think I'm decent with grammar and punct (with beta help!) but I don't remember the words for anything. tag and nominative and dangling parti-whatever. blech!!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

SAHARA

Friday, August 4, 2006 3:07 PM

What a great, great thread.

For some reason, I can never remember when to use "affect" and when to use "effect". Any tips?

Sahara
Blackbird fly into the light of the dark, black night.

RUGBUG

Friday, August 4, 2006 3:12 PM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Friday, August 4, 2006 3:13 PM

Thanks, PhoenixRose! Your reely good to correct our grammer like this. Their are just to many silly mistakes being made these days. Its a real annoyance. Noone should be forced too read threw badly written posts. Hear's hopeing all our post's will be grammer perfect from now on!

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, August 4, 2006 3:21 PM

Certainly, Sahara! It's rather comlicated, I might just copy from dictionary.com

Effect:
Something brought about by a cause or agent; a result.
The power to produce an outcome or achieve a result; influence: "The drug had an immediate effect on the pain." "The government's action had no effect on the trade imbalance. "
A scientific law, hypothesis, or phenomenon: the photovoltaic effect.
Advantage; avail: "She used her words to great effect in influencing the jury."
The condition of being in full force or execution: "A new regulation that goes into effect tomorrow."
Something that produces a specific impression or supports a general design or intention: "The lighting effects emphasized the harsh atmosphere of the drama."
A particular impression: "Large windows gave an effect of spaciousness."
Production of a desired impression: "Spent lavishly on dinner just for effect."
The basic or general meaning; import: "He said he was greatly worried, or words to that effect."
effects Movable belongings; goods.

Affect:
To put on a false show of; simulate: "He affected a British accent."
To have an influence on: "Inflation affects the buying power of the dollar."
To attack or infect, as a disease: "Rheumatic fever can affect the heart."

I hope that's clear. Of all similar words, they seem most similar.

"Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. A language that also has a grammar can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them."

SAHARA

Friday, August 4, 2006 3:24 PM

Thank you!

Shiny.

I guess where I get confused is that I think of "The power to produce an outcome or achieve a result; influence:" for "effect" and "To have an influence on:" for "affect" to be almost indistinguishable.

I want it to be as easy as "if you can answer the question with "him", then use "whom" in the question.

Sahara
Blackbird fly into the light of the dark, black night.

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, August 4, 2006 3:33 PM

Very welcome, Saraha! Always happy to help. Yes, they seem very similar. Those trip even my mom up at times.

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
Thanks, PhoenixRose! Your reely good to correct our grammer like this. Their are just to many silly mistakes being made these days. Its a real annoyance. Noone should be forced too read threw badly written posts. Hear's hopeing all our post's will be grammer perfect from now on!

Are you mocking me?

"Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. A language that also has a grammar can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them."

ISAACSHEPHERD

Friday, August 4, 2006 4:15 PM

Wow PhoenixRose that's a pretty handy guide (and that's comming from an English major ). For anyone who wishes to polish up grammar and or/spelling I highly suggest a book simply titled "The Grammar Bible", I don't have the book around otherwise I'd say the author. The author starts from the beginning and gives good examples to polish up that grammar if it's been a while.

IS

The Bible's a bit fuzzy on the subject of kneecaps.

SQUISH

Saturday, August 5, 2006 2:27 AM

If I may, I'd like to add something that I see often in grading college papers (something that I never would have imagined that people would confuse for one another):

Then and Than (info. below taken from dictionary.com)

Then:

At that time: I was still in school then. Come at noon; I'll be ready then.

Next in time, space, or order; immediately afterward: watched the late movie and then went to bed.

In addition; moreover; besides: It costs $20, and then there's the sales tax to pay.

Used after but to qualify or balance a preceding statement: The star was nervous, but then who isn't on the first night of a new play.

In that case; accordingly: If traffic is heavy, then allow extra time.

As a consequence; therefore: The case, then, is closed.

Than:

Used after a comparative adjective or adverb to introduce the second element or clause of an unequal comparison: She is a better athlete than I.

Used to introduce the second element after certain words indicating difference: He draws quite differently than she does.

When. Used especially after hardly and scarcely: I had scarcely walked in the door than the commotion started.

Thanks for starting this thread and I highly recommend Hawkmoth's link cited above!

PHOENIXROSE

Saturday, August 5, 2006 12:32 PM

Quite excellent, squish!

Knew I was forgetting a few things...

I'm adding that to the top post, just to make reference easier.

"Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. A language that also has a grammar can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them."

PHOENIXROSE

Sunday, August 6, 2006 10:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dayve:
I would be eternally grateful to any educator (primary or secondary - English or otherwise) who could effectively teach the proper conjugation of the verb "to see"...

Ok, then.
"Are you going to see it?"
"Will you see it?"
"Have you seen it?"
"Did you see it?"
"Yes, I saw it."
"No, I haven't seen it."
"No I didn't see it."
"Has he seen it?"
"No, he hasn't seen it."
"No, he didn't see it."
"Yes, he saw it."

Is that all clear?

"Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. A language that also has a grammar can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them."

COZEN

Sunday, August 6, 2006 12:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:

And yes, semicolons. I've always thought of them as something like a "soft" period. They can be used to break up run-on sentances and other handy things like that. I love them...

Although I'm certain semicolons exist for a good reason, I've had a hard time accepting their necessity. To wit, I'm with Vonnegut:

“Do not use semicolons. They are transvestite hermaphrodites representing absolutely nothing. All they do is show you’ve been to college.”
-- K.V., A Man Without a Country

{edited to add....} "Rules can only take us so far. Even good rules." ibid. In the context of this thread, I would apply that statement this way: proper grammar is a good thing, but secondary to getting the message to the reader.

Fun thread... for a geek.

***
Huh: an incomplete citing of a source. *Gives up all literary pretensions.*

PHOENIXROSE

Sunday, August 6, 2006 1:06 PM

Um, I think grammar is important to properly convey a message to a reader. Sometimes I can't understand what is meant because the structure is so incomprehensible. Most of the time I can work it out, true, but it can take several readings, or the initial reading just doesn't go smooth because I keep pulling up short at an error and going "Do they mean... They must. Okay." It interrupts the flow of stories in particular, but sometimes it's a problem in simple posts.
And just for the record, I haven't been to college. I also am not getting all that in-depth here; there are things that can't be summed up easily and maybe aren't as important as actually using the right word. Usage is something everyone should know for any language they speak, and so I don't really consider it a geeky pursuit.
Please take your backhanded 'compliments' elsewhere. Thank you.

"Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. A language that also has a grammar can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them."

COZEN

Sunday, August 6, 2006 1:22 PM

Wasn't meant as an insult. I'm very sorry you took it that way. I thought I could contribute to a lively, if somewhat insular, debate. I guess this is one of those cases where I was poking a little fun, and no one but me got the joke. I suppose my choice of emoticons weren't good enough for the task.

Again: my apologies. I won't bother you again.

MSG

Sunday, August 6, 2006 2:47 PM

I see we are having a moment:)Excellent grammer lesson. I give it an

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, August 7, 2006 10:06 AM

Oh look, I've been teacher elf mooned... Yay?

Hey, I found a site called "The Apostrophe Protection Society". It's got some good and simple info on proper use of apostrophes. http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/

"Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. A language that also has a grammar can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them."

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, September 1, 2006 11:40 AM

I'm sad my thread is dying. I'm sorry I got snarky and put my back up, but that was nearly a month ago! I'm better now!
And I did send an apology and explination to cozen, but I don't know if he even got it.

A family is a place where minds come in contact with one another. If these minds love one another the home will be as beautiful as a flower garden. But if these minds get out of harmony with one another it is like a storm that plays havoc with them. - Gautama Siddharta

FELLOWTRAVELER

Friday, September 1, 2006 12:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by cozen:

Although I'm certain semicolons exist for a good reason, I've had a hard time accepting their necessity. To wit, I'm with Vonnegut:

“Do not use semicolons. They are transvestite hermaphrodites representing absolutely nothing. All they do is show you’ve been to college.”

-- K.V., A Man Without a Country

Now, that's funny!

LVS2READ

Friday, September 1, 2006 1:41 PM

Great thread, PR!

You missed my biggest pet peeve (I think--didn't catch it as I scrolled down): using 'alright' instead of 'all right'. I don't know, maybe I'm old school and 'alright' is becoming accepted, but it still jars me every time I see it. Already is a word, alright is not. At least in my book.

Here's wishing this thread a long and useful life!

"I love my captain."

MAL4PREZ

Friday, September 1, 2006 1:44 PM

Hey now, I love the semicolon! Lots of short sentences bother me. Don't get me wrong - it works great for Vonnegut. He's sarcastic. Makes fun of a lot of stuff. All the breaks work for his style. They make it tongue in cheek.

Hi-ho.

(You've read slapstick, right?)

Myself, I want my fiction to flow. I want the writing and my voice to be invisible, so the reader will forget that I am telling the story. They should see the characters and the settings and not be aware of me at all. I am a window, see how I... um, never mind.

I find that sentence lengths and the pauses between phrases are a HUGE part of this. Too many hard stops ruin it. They kill the flow. Break up continuity. Get kind of dull to read too. Unless you're Kurt Vonnegut and you're speaking in your own voice which needs short setences. (OK, it's his narrator's voice, but he admits it is often some fictionalization of himself.)

Hope this doesn't come off ranty. I felt a moment of OMG I must get rid of all my semicolons cause Kurt said so! But then I changed my mind. It's all about the style you want. Semicolons provide a shorter break than periods; they are flowy and I like that.

As for what PR said above, I second the need for clarity and less errors! You should never have to go back over a phrase to figure out what the hell the writer means. That kills the illusion!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, September 1, 2006 1:48 PM

Hmmmmm, that's an interesting one.
From dictionary.com:
—Usage note: The form alright as a one-word spelling of the phrase all right in all of its senses probably arose by analogy with such words as already and altogether. Although alright is a common spelling in written dialogue and in other types of informal writing, all right is used in more formal, edited writing.
adj : nonstandard usage adv 1: used to reinforces an assertion; "it's expensive all right" (syn: all right, without doubt) 2: sentence-initial expression of agreement [syn: very well, fine, all right, OK] 3: in a satisfactory or adequate manner; "she'll do okay on her own"; "held up all right under pressure"; ('alright' is a nonstandard variant of 'all right')
So for them writing stories, this is something to watch for. However, informal usage seems fine. And our Big Damn Heroes use informal speech a lot of the time, so would this be how we'd put it in their dialogue? Or should it be avoided altogether?
Good one, Lvs2read!

*edit* Mal4Prez, you put things so well!

A family is a place where minds come in contact with one another. If these minds love one another the home will be as beautiful as a flower garden. But if these minds get out of harmony with one another it is like a storm that plays havoc with them. - Gautama Siddharta

STINKINGROSE

Sunday, September 10, 2006 1:48 AM

You know, it's embarassing but I think I may have asserted the inverse of the it's/its rule the other day.
I'm so used to seeing that poor apostrophe abused around town I am starting to forget everything I have learned since third grade.
Knowing the difference between affect and effect helped me in anatomy and physiology class. I had no trouble differentiating between afferent and efferent paths of the nervous system.
Yay vocabulary wonks!

PHOENIXROSE

Sunday, September 10, 2006 3:09 AM

It can be hard to remember that kind of thing (especially with it's and its) and that's what this thread is all about!

Health is the greatest gift, contentment the greatest wealth, faithfulness the best relationship. - Gautama Siddharta

RMMC

Sunday, September 10, 2006 6:07 AM

Nice thread, PR. I've got one to add to the mix because strange as it may be, I've actually run across it when reading fic.

Bare: without clothing or covering. This includes:
a.) being physically naked, (example: Kaylee touched Simon's bare back.)
b.) having an object devoid of any usual components, (example: The cockpit control panel was bare of dinosaurs.)
c.)not concealing the view (example: At the start of the movie, you could see Mal through the bare glass of the cockpit.)

Bear: Large furry animals that are usually quite dangerous and still hunted for sport. (Example: Kaylee's favorite book as an old Earth book titled "Goldilocks and the Three Bears.")

Barred: to be excluded from. (Example: Due to having been caught cheating, Tracey was barred from the card tables.)

Yeah, I won't throw stones about punctuation. I know mine's not the best.

But I will have fun and make a confusing sentence with all three.

The entire crew voted that Jayne should be barred from lying bare on the bearskin rug while cleaning Vera.

*******
RMMC

PHOENIXROSE

Sunday, September 10, 2006 6:50 AM

I was debating whether to put that one in, RMMC. Good to have it on here. I'll add something for "bare" though, because it's often used in sentences such as "She bared it all" or something like that. This of course just means to get naked, but it's important to remember, when using this sentence, that you don't add an 'r'. As RMMC pointed out, 'barred' means something totally different from 'bared'. Same with 'barring' and 'baring'.
Also, 'bear' can also be a verb. "To bear a burden" or "Bear in mind". This is the same verb as would be used in the past tense as "bore" as in "She bore herself well under pressure." Bore, of course also has another meaning, as in "It bored her" or "It was boring".
Oh dear, you don't think about how confusing English can be until you start talking about these little points, do ya? Well, I never did, anyway...

"Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. A language that also has a grammar can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them."

RMMC

Monday, September 11, 2006 2:24 AM

Thanks, PR. I wouldn't have mentioned it, but I've run across it more than once (bear where it should be bare) due to many folks thinking that spell and grammar check in MS Word is comparable to having a beta or an editor. It's not.

Heck, I've seen these sorts of mistakes (lack of knowledgable editing) in professionally marketed books and big city newspapers.

Thanks for making such a nice guide for folks.

******
RMMC

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, September 11, 2006 10:04 AM

There are so many definitions of "bear" that I'm not sure I summed it all up, but 'bear' 'bare' 'bore' and 'boar' have been added to the top main post. Whew!

I've also seen it in professional books and newspapers in particular. Bothers me. I hope to make the quality of this site just a little higher than some newspaper

"Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. A language that also has a grammar can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them."

RMMC

Monday, September 11, 2006 8:45 PM

Looks good!!!! But it also looks like we both forgot reproduction (bearing young) and that's it's a compass direction of one thing to another [a ship to move at a bearing of "x". (I have no idea other than it usually has decimalized numbers going with it.)] Plus the furry bears. GAHHH! Too much fur! AAIIEE!!!!

*whimper*

So them's the bear facts, folks.

♪Look for the bear necessities
The simple bear necessities
Forget about your worries and your strife.♪

******
RMMC

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, September 18, 2006 3:53 AM

*hums along*

Okay, I fixed it. The bearing of children could said to be carrying, so I just snuck it in there.

"Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. A language that also has a grammar can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them."

RMMC

Monday, September 18, 2006 9:14 PM

Looks great, PR! You did a very shiny job!

And now we can really blow some minds with the following nature tidbit: polar bears aren't bears; they're more closely related to the weasel family.

*******
RMMC

ELOISA

Wednesday, September 20, 2006 1:16 PM

Phoenixrose, I'd be grateful if you'd amend the top post to clear up some confusion over the definition of "quite".

I had a discussion about this yesterday with an Australian and an American (I am British). In US English, "quite" always means "very". In Australian English, "quite" almost always means "slightly". In UK English, "quite" normally means "slightly" except when used for dramatic irony. The difference in the UK - annoyingly enough, when posting on the internet - is often conveyed solely in tone of voice. I might say, "I'm quite OK" when I had a slight headache but apart from that was fine. I might also say, "I'm quite OK!" when I was on top of the world. In the same way, the interjection "Quite" as a one-word sentence would mean "maybe you're right" if said with a down-tone at the end or "extremely so" if said in a stronger voice.

This confusion aside, it would help international relations on this site if you mentioned this problem in the first post. I'm likely to use "quite" in fanfic with its full range of meaning, even if I haven't yet, and I know I've read some other authors who've seemed to use it in a UK "slightly" context. UK readers would be able to decode the US meaning by a US author due to context, but the reverse is not true.

PHOENIXROSE

Wednesday, September 20, 2006 1:35 PM

Ok, I'd be happy to do that, but let me clarify a few things with you first, since I'm not a native to the UK and don't want to miss any nuance...
Could it be said to be similar in meaning to "rather"? Or is it more like "partly"? Or maybe even "mosty"? I don't want to get this wrong, so please let me know!

The only real failure in life is not to be true to the best one knows. - Gautama Siddharta

ELOISA

Wednesday, September 20, 2006 2:00 PM

In the British English sense, "rather" can be used to mean both "extremely" and "slightly", with the latter closer to the dictionary definition and the latter as a sarcastic understatement, so yes, it's very similar to "rather" - unless, that is, "rather" is used in a different way in the US!

Thinking about it, there seem to be three levels of "quite" in use in UK English:

1) Slightly ("quite good" in dullish tone = just about acceptable)

2) Most of the way there, often in a surprising manner ("quite good" in excited tone = goodish, better than I expected)

and 3) Extremely ("quite marvellous" = wonderful; we wouldn't normally say "quite good" to mean wonderful). The stages between don't seem to be covered. What I don't know is how this will fit into what you can say about the silly word... Ah, for the good old days when words simply had contradictory meanings, such as "nice" once meaning "nasty".

I wonder if this means we need a UK/US translation dictionary in the BSR forum too.

PHOENIXROSE

Wednesday, September 20, 2006 2:10 PM

UK to US English dictionary might not be a bad idea! I'd be happy to contribute anything I know.

Sounds like it is close to the way we use "rather" (those of us who actually use rather, anyway) "Rather" is used both seriously and sarcastically. So now I think I understand a bit better. I'll see about putting that in there without it being too muddy.

The only real failure in life is not to be true to the best one knows. - Gautama Siddharta

ELOISA

Wednesday, September 20, 2006 2:18 PM

Thank you, PR.

I'll come back on here and start a US-UK thingy after work this evening. By association it may even prod me into finishing the two incomplete Firefly shortfics I have on my hard drive.

MISSKITTEN

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 3:44 PM

I just looked at the list and found which are my common mistakes... lol...

Grammar:
- Loose vs Lose - someone pointed out to me that I used "loose" when I should've used "lose" (but now I've been corrected)
- Noone - For a long time I wrote that, this has also been pointed out to me and I don't anymore.

Character names:
- I always write Zoë as Zoe (Bad me, but I can't help it, I always forget those two dots)
- I always believed Malcolm was written "Malcom", luckily I've pretty much always used "Mal", so there's been no problem there.

This guide's realy good, keep it up. There should really be more of these out. Too many people make so many of these mistakes and it's so easy to correct most of them.

*~*~*

"Joss, if you kill him now I'll stuff a compression coil up your ass sideways!"
~ Kaylee, "Serenity in 2000 words or less"

Kaylee's the perfect woman!

SAB39

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 8:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sahara:
I guess where I get confused is that I think of "The power to produce an outcome or achieve a result; influence:" for "effect" and "To have an influence on:" for "affect" to be almost indistinguishable.

Ok this is a little late, only just noticed this thread.

The difference between "effect" and "affect" is very simple in fact: one's a noun, one's a verb!

If it affects you, then it has an effect on you.

Dong ma? :)

Stuart.

PHOENIXROSE

Friday, October 6, 2006 1:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sab39:
The difference between "effect" and "affect" is very simple in fact: one's a noun, one's a verb!

If it affects you, then it has an effect on you.

Dong ma? :)

Thank you, kind sir!

"Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. A language that also has a grammar can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them."

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Friday, October 6, 2006 5:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Very welcome, Saraha! Always happy to help. Yes, they seem very similar. Those trip even my mom up at times.
Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
Thanks, PhoenixRose! Your reely good to correct our grammer like this. Their are just to many silly mistakes being made these days. Its a real annoyance. Noone should be forced too read threw badly written posts. Hear's hopeing all our post's will be grammer perfect from now on!

Are you mocking me?

Me? Mock the beautiful, talented Phoenix Rose? Never! *looks very innocent*

More graphics available at www.desktophippie.com - yes, I've moved!

PHOENIXROSE

Sunday, October 29, 2006 6:27 PM

Your innocent look does not fool me!

Oh yeah, and bump

"Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. A language that also has a grammar can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them."

ASORTAFAIRYTALE

Sunday, October 29, 2006 7:25 PM

Thanks, this should clear up a few things around here....It kinda bothers me when people make mistakes like that, but then I also am kinda crazy too....

---------
Love keeps her in the air when she outta fall down, tells you she's hurting before she keels. Makes her a home.

FARFLY

Sunday, October 29, 2006 7:42 PM

ireadsomewherethatallgrammarrulesweresuspendedwhileusingtheinternet?

Also, according to the following item, spelling errors are OK.

"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. "

MAZAEN

Sunday, October 29, 2006 10:22 PM

Linking words

A really useful tool is to build on sentences in your documents. One way you can build on sentences is to use a linking word.

eg Firefly has many characters. (I'll pick the linking word 'character')One of the characters is Wash. (I'll pick linking word Wash but will use a similar phrase to describe 'Wash'.) This blonde-haired, entertaining character pilots the ship, which is called Serenity. (I'll pick the linking word 'Wash')Wash is a funny guy who's married to Zoe, who is another crew member on the ship.

MAZAEN

Sunday, October 29, 2006 10:45 PM

I was wondering if someone kmew about tense. I'm having trouble with tense. I've been told you should always use the same tense when you write a document. If you are going to use past tense, you use past tense throughout the document. If you are going to use present tense you use present tense throughout the doucment. I have written the paragraph below in all present tense, but it doesn't seem to make sense. Does anyone know why?

As Mal is standing, he looks outside the window of Serenity and into the blackness and the stars. He remembers looking up to the same stars when he has been in the war. On one night in the war, he has fought with Zoe against the alliance. When Zoe and Mal have been fighting, alliance planes have flown over Zoe and Mal's position. The planes have shot at Mal's troops, lasers placing colourful stripes over the landscape.

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, October 30, 2006 2:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mazaen:
As Mal is standing, he looks outside the window of Serenity and into the blackness and the stars. He remembers looking up to the same stars when he has been in the war. On one night in the war, he has fought with Zoe against the alliance. When Zoe and Mal have been fighting, alliance planes have flown over Zoe and Mal's position. The planes have shot at Mal's troops, lasers placing colourful stripes over the landscape.

Brain hurty!
Ok, I'm not sure how to explain... Um, this paragraph involves memory, so it would go into the past tense. I'll see if I can write it properly...
"Mal is standing on the bridge of Serenity, looking out the window into the stars and blackness. He remembers looking up at the same stars when he was in the war. He was fighting against the Alliance; Zoe was there with him then. Mal remembers the planes flying over his position, shooting at his troops, the lasers painting colourful stripes over the landscape."
This describes, in the present tense, Mal remembering something from the past, which has to be in the past tense. I find it much easier to write (and read) stories all in past tense, personally.
Er, I hoped this helped. It's really hard to describe all those niddly little rules that can take years to absorb.

As for grammar rules not applying on the internet, that's just being lazy. It's written communication and is easier to understand if it's correct. Even l33t speak has its own grammar to it, in my experience. Everyone has the same frame of reference so everyone can understand what is being said. However, this is mostly a resource for fic writers. Grammar rules do apply when you're writing a story. If people want to use it for their day-to-day posting and communication, I will not mind at all, but I started this thread mostly for the fic writers (hence its location).

"Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive, because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols. A language that also has a grammar can manipulate its symbols to express clear and regular relationships between them."

PHOENIXROSE

Sunday, January 14, 2007 8:09 AM

*sneaks in and bumps thread*

I've also added a few things to the top post.

ODDNESS2HER

Monday, January 15, 2007 8:59 PM

This will be a great help to the aspiring writers in our midst. There are a couple of additions you could make to your "bore, boar" entry:

boor (n) a churlish, rude or unmannerly person (like Jayne!)

Boer (n) a South African of Dutch extraction

Fun with words!

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Tuesday, January 16, 2007 8:28 PM

I got one. I hate to pick on Gwenfrewi, but she used this sentence in her Mal Love-Bot piece, which is otherwise excellent.

Quote:

Sneaking quietly into the cargo bay was easy since Simon had taken to sharing Kaylee’s bunk, but opening the box would be tricky, but she wasn’t a genius for nothing.

Shouldn't put 2 dependent clauses , both starting with " but", in the same sentence.
I got no problems with run-on sentences, sometimes they are the way to show pace or thought process.

PHOENIXROSE

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 11:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
I got one. I hate to pick on Gwenfrewi, but she used this sentence in her Mal Love-Bot piece, which is otherwise excellent.
Quote:

Sneaking quietly into the cargo bay was easy since Simon had taken to sharing Kaylee’s bunk, but opening the box would be tricky, but she wasn’t a genius for nothing.

Shouldn't put 2 dependent clauses , both starting with " but", in the same sentence.

I always liked the word 'however' for these kinds of things. Definitely a snarled sentence no matter what, though.

[]

FLATTOP

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 12:10 PM

Bump.
Just because I like the subject.
Grammar, spelling, diction, and penmanship are not just for fanfic.
Make your grandmother's day, send her a piece of snail-mail that you've written in your finest hand.

----------
Vote for Firefly http://www.richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html

Sign up NOW! http://fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=11&t=25704
More Information: http://76thbattalion.homestead.com/index.html

PHOENIXROSE

Wednesday, January 24, 2007 5:29 PM

I have added poor, pour, and pore to the first post. Came across an error with that one (several times) in a professional novel. Really unbelievable.

[]

PHOENIXROSE

Monday, February 19, 2007 9:31 AM

Okay, I see many people say "It peeked her interest" or something like that. This drives me crazy. I have added peek, peak, and pique to the top post.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

SAVEWASH

Tuesday, February 20, 2007 12:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by sab39:

The difference between "effect" and "affect" is very simple in fact: one's a noun, one's a verb!

If it affects you, then it has an effect on you.

Dong ma? :)

Stuart.

Oh, I don't want to take something easy and make it difficult, but this isn't quite true.

Effect (v.t.) to produce as an effect; bring about; accomplish: to effect a change.

Granted, this isn't commonly used, but it's correct. Most of the time, you're safe using sab39's rule.

"We need to keep our heads so we can ... keep our heads."

YINYANG

Tuesday, February 20, 2007 1:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
It’s = it is. As in "It’s a crying shame that Firefly was cancelled." Also used for it has, as in "It’s rained every day this week."
Its = possessive term. As in "The Alliance retracted its statements."

You've almost convinced my atheist self to become an agnostic. If you'd just had a thread with this in it, that would have been awesome.

PhoenixRose: conveniently available for hero worship.

Rules and voting: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=22892

RIVERDANCER

Sunday, April 15, 2007 12:00 PM

*bump*

PHOENIXROSE

Sunday, April 22, 2007 11:55 AM

Hehehe, that's a great pic! I fixed it so it'll show up here:

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

PHOENIXROSE

Sunday, May 13, 2007 8:46 PM

Feel like bumping this again. Would like to see a lot more people using 'a lot' rather than 'alot'(*twitch*)

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

CONSTANCE

Sunday, May 13, 2007 8:55 PM

I would like to promote the proper spelling of my haircolour. I am blonde. My boyfriend however is blond. (and oh Im a girl.. just mentioning it so the point might come across clearer)

Thanks for the thread by the way. English is not my native language so this was helpful.

Constance

MAL4PREZ

Monday, May 14, 2007 2:26 PM

OK, I was so fascinated by this that I looked it up on dictionary.com:

—Usage note The spelling blonde is still widely used for the noun that specifies a woman or girl with fair hair: The blonde with the baby in her arms is my anthropology professor. Some people object to this as an unnecessary distinction, preferring blond for all persons: My sister is thinking of becoming a blond for a while. As an adjective, the word is more usually spelled blond in reference to either sex (an energetic blond girl; two blond sons), although the form blonde is occasionally still used of a female: the blonde model and her escort. The spelling blond is almost always used for the adjective describing hair, complexion, etc.: His daughter has blond hair and hazel eyes.

So it sounds like there is a gender involved in the spelling (who knew? I didn't!) but it's not a hard and fast rule.

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

DARKFLY

Thursday, June 7, 2007 11:41 AM

thanks PhoenixRose your the best.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.myspace.com/darkfly7
Darkfly's Fan fiction, The Dark Chronicles OUT NOW

Want pics, vids, ringtones,ect releated to Serenity and Firefly
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=26986

PHOENIXROSE

Thursday, June 7, 2007 12:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Darkfly:
thanks PhoenixRose your the best.

*sputters*

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

MAL4PREZ

Monday, July 16, 2007 5:00 PM

OK, I know this thread isn't about punctuation, but so many fics do quotations wrong that I think need a review of the basics is needed. I'm super bored today, so what the heck!

These may seem like small things, but they make a huge difference. Commas and periods indicate a different length of pause, and dialogue won't flow right if the punctuation is wrong. Most readers will sense it, even if they don't consciously recognize the error. So, make your readers more comfortable - get it right!

***Anytime a tag (ie. he said, she asked, they called out, George explained, etc...) is used with a quote, it is NOT a separate sentence. It gets a comma, not a period.

right: Wash queried, "Where are my dinosaurs?"
WRONG: Wash queried. "Where are my dinosaurs?"
right: "River has them," Simon said.
WRONG: "River has them." Simon said.

***BTW, the punctuation goes inside the quotation marks:

right: "We do business," Mal said.
WRONG: "We do business", Mal said.

***Because it's not a new sentence, don't capitalize the speaking action verb thingy, even after a question or exclamation:

right: "Are you gonna eat that?" asked Jayne.
WRONG: "Are you gonna eat that?" Asked Jayne.

right: "I'm a mad genius!" yelled River.
WRONG: "I'm a mad genius!" Yelled River.

***DO capitalize when it's a new sentence:

right: "Are you gonna eat that?" Jayne pointed at Kaylee's plate.
right: "I'm a mad genius!" River's face turned red as she yelled.

***When the tag's in the middle of the quote, use a comma only if the sentence in the quote ends:

right: "I told you," Mal said, "that I wanted pay up front. Now pay."
WRONG: "I told you," Mal said. "that I wanted pay up front. Now pay."

right: "I told you that I wanted pay up front," Mal said. "Now pay."
WRONG: "I told you that I wanted pay up front," Mal said, "Now pay."

Any more I missed?

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

PLATONIST

Tuesday, July 17, 2007 1:59 AM

I don't know if this is possible, when posting fic on this site, but I have my students write in their doc program (Works or Word).

They edit using Spell and Grammar Check, then copy and paste in our online writing program (Holt), then send and have it graded by a writing rubric that suggests improvement. I access their writing sample on-line and average their rubric grades.

They can reformat if necessary, but I think the program auto formats. Anyway, just an idea.

2X2

Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:47 PM

This is an excellent thread!

And since I saw way up at the top a reply about character names, I would like to ask if anyone can confirm the proper spelling of the planet Londinum / Londinium

Acording to the RPG, the planet is actually Londinum - no extra 'i'. There is a map of the worlds in the RPG that shows this spelling.

This image also appears in the Serenity Visual Companion, however, the spelling in the write up has it as Londinium, with the second 'i'.

I haven't read the novelization yet, but I was wondering if there are any other instances out there to give us a clear indication of which is the correct spelling?

I've been using Londinum because I first saw it in the RPG, and have been thinking most people have been using Londinium in error. Now that I've found it in the Visual Companion as well, I'd rather be sure before I put my foot in it pointing it out to anyone.

Anyone?

FREDGIBLET

Thursday, July 19, 2007 9:21 PM

Probably depends on if it's a American descendant or a descendant from anywhere else on the world...

PLATONIST

Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:23 PM

I assumed "nium", from Latin, (they liked their vowels)

as in millennium or plutonium

I've seen the "num" also used... as in aluminum

good catch

FIZZIX

Friday, July 20, 2007 12:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
I assumed "nium", from Latin, (they liked their vowels)

as in millennium or plutonium

I've seen the "num" also used... as in aluminum

good catch

Aluminium is the British spelling, if memory serves. I prefer it. Lawlz. It's an American vs British thing. Americans distorted it.

/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\
May not be smart, and it may not please you, but you're definitely gonna see what I have to say.
Put this in your sig if you had a favorite show that may have been named Firefly and was canceled by FOX.

FIZZIX

Friday, July 20, 2007 12:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
OK, I was so fascinated by this that I looked it up on dictionary.com:

—Usage note The spelling blonde is still widely used for the noun that specifies a woman or girl with fair hair: The blonde with the baby in her arms is my anthropology professor. Some people object to this as an unnecessary distinction, preferring blond for all persons: My sister is thinking of becoming a blond for a while. As an adjective, the word is more usually spelled blond in reference to either sex (an energetic blond girl; two blond sons), although the form blonde is occasionally still used of a female: the blonde model and her escort. The spelling blond is almost always used for the adjective describing hair, complexion, etc.: His daughter has blond hair and hazel eyes.

So it sounds like there is a gender involved in the spelling (who knew? I didn't!) but it's not a hard and fast rule.

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

I use the rule , as it's the same sort of thing in French.(Which, oddly enough, in French, is not capitalized. But. This is an ENGLISH grammar thread. Heh.) This makes it a hard line, and I arbitrarily assign inanimate objects gender - typically based on characteristics. (May also come from French. Who said I had logic to my usage of blond/blonde?)

PR, you are of the awesome.

/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\/|\
May not be smart, and it may not please you, but you're definitely gonna see what I have to say.
Put this in your sig if you had a favorite show that may have been named Firefly and was canceled by FOX.

PLATONIST

Friday, July 20, 2007 4:13 AM

Actually it was "aluminum" first, as it is in the US today- Al on the table.

The British changed it to "aluminium" to align the spelling with the other element spellings, such as sodium.

Yes... a difference, but not a distortion.

MAL4PREZ

Friday, July 20, 2007 1:58 PM

I know nothing about RPG, but here's my take:

I've always thought the word was pronounced with four syllables: lond-in-i-um. Without the i, it's lond-di-num, which sounds a lot like laudanum, which is an opiate. That seems weird to me.

Except... I just checked the Serenity the Pilot script and it's spelled without the i. Oh my stars - have I been wrong all this time?

How do you guys pronouce it?

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

PLATONIST

Friday, July 20, 2007 6:25 PM

In regards to pronunciation, Londinum would be

"lon-di-num" 3 syllables as is "lau-da-num"

"Londinium" would be "lon-di-ni-um" 4 syllables

I like Londinium too. Londinum sounds like "umpa- lumpa'. Although Dahl is the crowning glory of Postmodern British Children's Literature. Don't get me started on Rowling and her blatant rip-off (Oh! sorry, I mean influence) of his brilliance!

2X2

Tuesday, July 24, 2007 9:57 AM

From what I have discovered, the script was a TYPO... the proper spelling is 'Londinium', like the Roman city in Britain.

Joss himself has just confirmed this in a thread on Whedonesque about the new QmX Blue Sun posters, one of which is a Londinum poster, which he pointed out was spelled incorrectly. Now there will only be the original 300 poster sets being sold at Comic Con with the mis-spelling (which everyone predicts will make it an instant collector's item) and the rest will be corrected to read 'Londinium'.

So fear not, you had it right!
Oh, and you have the pronunciation correct too :oD

ETA: oh, here's the link to the Whedonesque post if anyone's interested: http://whedonesque.com/comments/13798

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I know nothing about RPG, but here's my take:

I've always thought the word was pronounced with four syllables: lond-in-i-um. Without the i, it's lond-di-num, which sounds a lot like laudanum, which is an opiate. That seems weird to me.

Except... I just checked the Serenity the Pilot script and it's spelled without the i. Oh my stars - have I been wrong all this time?

How do you guys pronouce it?

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HOBBLEIT

Tuesday, July 24, 2007 10:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Actually it was "aluminum" first, as it is in the US today- Al on the table.

The British changed it to "aluminium" to align the spelling with the other element spellings, such as sodium.

Yes... a difference, but not a distortion.

but both spellings were put forward by the same man. The Europeans chose Aluminium and the Americans chose to use Aluminum.

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PHOENIXROSE

Tuesday, July 24, 2007 12:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by hobbleit:
both spellings were put forward by the same man. The Europeans chose Aluminium and the Americans chose to use Aluminum.

So what's wrong with that?

Glad we got Londinium worked out. Never trust the RPG book

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, July 24, 2007 1:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 2x2:
From what I have discovered, the script was a TYPO... the proper spelling is 'Londinium', like the Roman city in Britain.

Thanks 2x2! That's a relief - not the not being wrong part as much as that "Londinum" would just be annoying.

But speaking of punctuation (I know, no one was LOL!) has anyone else noticed how JK Rowling uses colons? I don't have the book here for a quote, but she'd use them like this:

Harry ran into the trees: The shadows were very dark.

Kind of like semi-colons, but with the second part capitalized. Is this an English (like England-English) thing? I don't recall seeing it before.

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2X2

Tuesday, July 24, 2007 3:14 PM

Quote:
Thanks 2x2! That's a relief - not the not being wrong part as much as that "Londinum" would just be annoying.

Happy to be of service ;o) (though, I kinda of liked Londinum, personally

)

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

But speaking of punctuation (I know, no one was LOL!) has anyone else noticed how JK Rowling uses colons? I don't have the book here for a quote, but she'd use them like this:

Harry ran into the trees: The shadows were very dark.

Kind of like semi-colons, but with the second part capitalized. Is this an English (like England-English) thing? I don't recall seeing it before.

I noticed that too! I've never seen it before that I can recall though, and I also found it very curious.

FIZZIX

Thursday, July 26, 2007 6:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 2x2:
This is an excellent thread!

And since I saw way up at the top a reply about character names, I would like to ask if anyone can confirm the proper spelling of the planet Londinum / Londinium

Acording to the RPG, the planet is actually Londinum - no extra 'i'. There is a map of the worlds in the RPG that shows this spelling.

This image also appears in the Serenity Visual Companion, however, the spelling in the write up has it as Londinium, with the second 'i'.

I haven't read the novelization yet, but I was wondering if there are any other instances out there to give us a clear indication of which is the correct spelling?

I've been using Londinum because I first saw it in the RPG, and have been thinking most people have been using Londinium in error. Now that I've found it in the Visual Companion as well, I'd rather be sure before I put my foot in it pointing it out to anyone.

Anyone?

Ah, I recall that it's Londinium, Joss says so. (*can't remember the source, other than Joss.*)

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ELOISA

Monday, August 13, 2007 11:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
But speaking of punctuation (I know, no one was LOL!) has anyone else noticed how JK Rowling uses colons? I don't have the book here for a quote, but she'd use them like this:

Harry ran into the trees: The shadows were very dark.

Kind of like semi-colons, but with the second part capitalized. Is this an English (like England-English) thing? I don't recall seeing it before.

It's not standard UK English. Probably an idiosyncrasy that went uncorrected by her editor - I know of one who always puts four dots in ellipsis instead of three...(.)

On the word-construction topic, I am convinced that "anymore" is an acceptable word. My flatmate is convinced that it has to be written "any more". Any advice?

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, August 14, 2007 3:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Eloisa:
It's not standard UK English. Probably an idiosyncrasy that went uncorrected by her editor - I know of one who always puts four dots in ellipsis instead of three...(.)

Um... aren't you supposed to use four dots when it's ending a complete sentence or something? I'm never quite sure; I kind of just throw in 3 or 4 randomly.

But now I wonder if the Rowling's use of the colon is going to become standard, as new writers copy her. Interesting. If a writer is popular enough, they can create their own punctuation rules LOL!

Quote:
On the word-construction topic, I am convinced that "anymore" is an acceptable word. My flatmate is convinced that it has to be written "any more". Any advice?

I use "anymore". No idea of the correctness of that - except that both options come up on dictionary.com. There's no explanation of one versus the other though.

Of course, things may be different in England!

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PHOENIXROSE

Tuesday, August 14, 2007 8:25 PM

I'm fairly sure anymore is a word, and anymore versus any more is kind of like everyday versus every day. For example: "You can't have any more caffeine." would be correct, whereas "You can't have anymore caffeine." would not be. "I can't take this anymore." would be a proper way to use 'anymore'. Anymore means 'any longer' or 'nowadays' which makes the rather odd-sounding "That's just how it is anymore." to be grammatically correct. 'Any more' means 'something more' 'in addition' 'a greater quantity' etc. See?

Amd I didn't notice any colon use like that in Deahtly Hallows. Can you give me a page number?

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Amd I didn't notice any colon use like that in Deahtly Hallows. Can you give me a page number?

I thought this would be a pain in the butt to find, but I opened the book randomly and got one! Page 265. For those who don't have the book on hand:

"STOP!" Harry thundered, and the powerful voice of Runcorn echoed through the Atrium: The wizards sealing the fireplaces froze.

Hmm... there's another on 269, then 272, then 278...

I don't mind it; it actually flows well. I've just never seen this usage before.

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