Firefly Sets Yet Another Record!

POSTED BY: 6ixStringJack
UPDATED: Friday, February 23, 2007 02:07
VIEWED: 52483
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6IXSTRINGJACK

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 3:32 AM

It's only been a few weeks since Muslix64 bypassed HD DVD's DRM protection and now it appears the first HD DVD movie has made its way onto BitTorrent. The movie of choice is the sci-fi flick Serenity, which weighed in at 19.6GB. The .EVO file is playable on most DVD software packages like PowerDVD, the question is will people be willing to download such a hefty file and how will the Hollywood honchos respond. Either way it looks like it's score 1 for the Pirates, 0 for DRM. – Louis Ramirez

First Pirated HD DVD Movie Hits BitTorrent [Ars Technica]

See more here: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070115-8622.html

Say what you will about pirating, but being a browncoat (see: pirate), I'm quite happy about it. I think it's quite an honor and good advertisement for Serenity that it was the first choice for the first hacker to successfully hack DRM on the new technology.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

ECGORDON

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 3:59 AM

I wish you hadn't given this information, and hopefully very few people take advantage of it. Anything that keeps people from buying official Universal DVDs is not good.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

CMOTD

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 4:00 AM

Will this reduce the number of serenity DVDs sold by Amazon.com?

Takes more than combat gear to make a man
Takes more than a license for a gun
Confront your enemies, avoid them when you can
A gentleman will walk but never run

-Sting, An Englishman in New York

6IXSTRINGJACK

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 5:04 AM

Whatever man... I was waiting for the haters to come out.

If anything this will bring more people to us and they'll see that maybe there's still a chance to buy the show to see more. That's what happened to me. I did the same thing with Arrested Development. I had already downloaded the first two seasons of that show, but when I found out FUX was going to cancell it, I dropped $60.00 on their website that I didn't need to drop on the DVDs. Sure, not everyone who downloads it is going to buy it, but it's still a higher percentage of people who would have had they'd never seen it at all. It's rather like cold calling in that regards, although this is free advertizing and it's a product that people will want. This technology is here to stay. Hackers will always find workarounds.

Don't be an Alliance-bot.

I'm not getting into another argument about the virtues of Piracy and just how wrong your train of thought is and how Alliance-like you sound when you say such things as I've been over this all before.

I think it's a beautiful thing that the only "real-life" pirates left in this world chose Serenity to be their flagship "F YOU!" to DRM, HDDVD, BlueRay and the MPAA in this, the next round of entertainment butchering.

Can't stop the signal bro.

Just for you, here's a little bump on the thread.

CMOTD - There has never been any evidence that the ability to download movies or music online has reduced the number of DVDs or CDs of quality goods in the stores. (read: QUALITY goods)

If the CD's only have one good song on them, that's a different story altogether and those Artists are getting screwed by legal downloading vendors such as ITunes just as much as illegal sites. Who is going to drop $16.00 on a CD when they can pay $0.99 for a song. Anything the RIAA or MPAA has said about piracy has nothing to do with them looking out for the interests of the artists. This is just a ploy to guilt people into buying 14 crap songs to get the one good one you were looking for to help their bottom line. They figured out that it wasn't working so they turned on their own artists they supposedly cared so much about and started selling their songs for a buck a piece.

Piracy gives you a choice to support what you really like. Piracy of CDs and DVDs is like giving people a vote as to what they like and support. If they really are a fan of Firefly/Serenity, they will buy a copy of the show/movie. If not, then I don't want them spending money on something they think is crap after they have plunked down the money and watched it. Wouldn't that just be fodder for negative feedback of this great show?

Don't kid yourself... though we love this show, there will always be haters.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

BABYWITHTHEPOWER

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 5:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
I wish you hadn't given this information, and hopefully very few people take advantage of it. Anything that keeps people from buying official Universal DVDs is not good.

Too many of you are thinking that stealing this movie is going to hurt the chances of a sequel. Well, considering Serenity already made the money Universal said was required to consider a sequel, and they haven't talked word one with Joss, I'd say you're holding out for a train that aint coming. But I digress, those of you that feel that this will hurt a sequel are obviously not seeing the big picture. Think about it, the time necessary to crack the DRM protection on a brand new technology is astronomical. Serenity was popular enough that this guy cracked the code on Serenity over every other HD movie out there. And at a whopping 19GB in size, it will take dedication from anyone wanting to download it. And if you don't think execs pay attention to stuff like that you're wrong. What's worth stealing is worth making more of.

This is the beginning of a new era of piracy, and it's only right that Serenity stands at the threshold. Our Captain would be so proud.

And in the words of reavers_ate_my_dvd on gizmodo:

You gotta love that the first pirated HD DVD is the one about space pirates who broadcast a video that the government wants to keep secret.

Can't stop the signal.

Can't stop the signal is right.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll be in my bunk.
XO of the 76th Battalion http://76thbattalion.homestead.com/index.html
http://www.myspace.com/babywiththepower

SIGMANUNKI

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 8:17 AM

Heard about this earlier today off of /. Quite frankly, all this has done is prove what everyone (including me) said about DRM. Namely, that it just won't work. In fact, there is exactly no way to secure this type of medium.

What really needs to happen, is for companies to stop stealing our fair use rights by using these "techniques" and just cope with the world as it sits today. Basically, they need to figure a way so that they take advantage of this tech, instead of fighting against it.

If they continue to fight against it, they will lose i.e. I can write code way faster than they can make laws.

As for its effects on sales... Well they screamed bloody murder when Beta/VHS/CD's/DVD's/etc came out and became recordable. They said it'd be the end of the recording/movie industries. Well, that didn't happen. So, why should I believe them this time?

IMO, if they want to get good sales, they should do the stunning move of making a quality product. Something which has been severely lacking in the past decade (arguably more).

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

6IXSTRINGJACK

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 9:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Heard about this earlier today off of /. Quite frankly, all this has done is prove what everyone (including me) said about DRM. Namely, that it just won't work. In fact, there is exactly no way to secure this type of medium.

What really needs to happen, is for companies to stop stealing our fair use rights by using these "techniques" and just cope with the world as it sits today. Basically, they need to figure a way so that they take advantage of this tech, instead of fighting against it.

If they continue to fight against it, they will lose i.e. I can write code way faster than they can make laws.

As for its effects on sales... Well they screamed bloody murder when Beta/VHS/CD's/DVD's/etc came out and became recordable. They said it'd be the end of the recording/movie industries. Well, that didn't happen. So, why should I believe them this time?

IMO, if they want to get good sales, they should do the stunning move of making a quality product. Something which has been severely lacking in the past decade (arguably more).

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

'Nuff Said!

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

DARKFLY

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 9:15 AM

Cool to have a record but since its illegal I wouldn't do it.You know if we all bought Serenity/Firefly merchandise for ourselves & for other people's birthday & christmas presents every year then maybe in 2 years Universal might realize that they've made a bundle on Serenity merchandise & might consider making film since if you add the film box office($39 million) plus DVD sales($8-13 million?) & Books & other stuff(a few million maybe) then for Universal Serenity has made $52-55 million maybe.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Things are about to get interesting...Define interesting...Oh GOD oh GOD we're all going to die.

Go to

to see my cool trailer.

ROY

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 9:26 AM

I'm with the hackers on this sort of stuff. I see no difference between getting a torrent copy and recording a show from the TV. If you really like the product you'll most likely still go out and purchase the original. Many a time I've recorded a movie, enjoyed it and subsequently gone out and bought the original.

Why is it that sellers don't want you to try before you buy ? Simple, if it turns out to be crud you won't buy it, so its in their interest not to let you determine its crud before you part with the cash. As a result people who don't know about Serenity (and there's a hell of a lot of them) will not part with their cash based on a fancy cover, they'd be more inclined if they could try before buying - here's an opportunity for some to do just that. A lot of people will not part with the cash to buy Serenity or any other show because they are fed up with being burned, letting them try first will get people to watch who otherwise would walk right by it.

Serenity is a quality product, those who like the download will consider buying the original - some won't, but many will. Note that much of the bruhaha over torrents is from the media companies, I don't hear as much bleating from the software world though they are probably hit harder, I guess they've learned to adjust to it.

The suits will notice this & probably track whats happening with the torrents, if the demand is big enough they'll see a market to be exploited and that gets us a little closer to Season 2.

If misbehaving is what it takes to get their attention, then lets be bad guys. :fork

SHAMELESS

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 9:31 AM

Well.
Hmm.

The fact that it's the first ever HD DVD (or just movie? Can we just say movie?) to get sneaked onto BitTorrent is real shiny! I do, however, have mixed feelings.
1. "You gotta love that the first pirated HD DVD is the one about space pirates who broadcast a video that the government wants to keep secret.

Can't stop the signal."
This is just awesome. So awesome, in fact, that I'm putting it in my signature.
2. WE'RE POPULAR! LOOK AT US GO! WOOO!
3. Shit, what about DVD sales?
4. The more lists the Browncoats top, the more likely it is that people will find out about Serenity/Firefly, become fans, and buy merchandise.
5. Or they'll just download everything illegally because I'm PARANOID and there'll never be a sequel!
6. Judging by the majority of Browncoats (and even just normal (not rabid) fans, like my lazy AND cheap friend who STILL bought the DVDs), most Firefly lovers will probably buy the stuff.

So, in the end, my need to convert people wins over my fear of DVD sales being hurt. And just for the record? I know that Serenity's in the black (financially), and I know that Universal hasn't approached Joss about a sequel - but gorramit, there's a limit to how much money can be made before people wake up and feel a powerful hunger for a Fruity Oaty Bar!

------------------------------------------
RPG launcher bought in third world country illegally - $10
Landmines - $50 per
Attack/track dogs bred 1st class - $250-500 per
Highpowered assault rifles - $600 per
The look on your face when I show up on your doorstep with a bigfoot - ... Priceless

When watching Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban in theaters:
In the Shrieking Shack, with Sirius Black (Quote #1) and Harry Potter (Quote #2):
"It's Jesus!"
"Harry Potter's the AntiChrist!"

BROWNCOAT1

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 12:22 PM

Here's hoping that the BDM being up on Bit Torrent will lead some new people to buy the dvd and join the browncoat ranks.

__________________________________________
Holding the line since December '02!

[img] [/img]

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

Color Sergeant

[img] [/img]

http://76thbattalion.homestead.com/index.html

SHINYED

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 1:01 PM

I guess I'm from another generation I suppose, but stealing is stealing...period! I know in today's world the young folks out there are quite used to downloading, copying, burning, etc etc just about every form of entertainment there is.... they feel they have a "right" to get whatever they want, regardless of any ability to pay for it, and without any remorse for stealing.

Some friendly advice from an old geezer....never steal, never be dis-honest, & always work hard. The "things" you obtain in life by working & paying for them are the most rewarding.

DONCOAT

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 2:57 PM

Well, for myself... since I already bought the HD-DVD of Serenity, I would feel no guilt about downloading this. Well, I might feel guilty about the heavy burden on my poor router.

I don't have an HD player yet (I'm waiting until the dual players come out so I can play either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray). It would be nice to be able to play the movie I own, now, wouldn't it? But AFAIK there are no HD-DVD drives for PCs available yet, at least not reasonably-priced ones.

As for pirating overall, I am in the mixed-feelings category. I deeply resent DRM and its horrendous impact on usability. For example, people are having a hard time setting up systems that connect HD players to HDTVs through an A/V receiver (using a digital link rather than analog/component video), because the player doesn't get the necessary handshake to the display. Ridiculous.

Further, I firmly believe that most people who pirate content (movies, music, or whatever) would never have paid for it in the first place, so the loss to the provider is minimal and probably offset by increased sales to those who found that material via the pirate channel, then bought legit copies and/or more of the same.

I'm an example of that, my own self. I've downloaded quite a bit of music from Usenet groups, but most of it is stuff I'd never buy, or stuff I already own on records, tapes, or CDs but didn't want to go through the hassle of ripping to mp3. There are definitely cases where I've bought CDs I never would have purchased if I hadn't found the artist online first.

And that's where I may differ from some other folks -- if I download something on the "black market" and find I like it and play it a lot, I make it a point to buy a legal copy. Part of that is because the CD almost always sounds better than an mp3 rip, but it's also to support the artists that I like.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

MIGHTYROAR

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 3:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by babywiththepower:
Well, considering Serenity already made the money Universal said was required to consider a sequel,

Did it? How much has it made, and how much were Universal after?

CMOTD

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 4:55 PM

they were after 40 million. I read that Serenity only made 25 million at the box office. How acurate is that figure?

Takes more than combat gear to make a man
Takes more than a license for a gun
Confront your enemies, avoid them when you can
A gentleman will walk but never run

-Sting, An Englishman in New York

DEEPGIRL187

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 4:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
I'm an example of that, my own self. I've downloaded quite a bit of music from Usenet groups, but most of it is stuff I'd never buy, or stuff I already own on records, tapes, or CDs but didn't want to go through the hassle of ripping to mp3. There are definitely cases where I've bought CDs I never would have purchased if I hadn't found the artist online first.

And that's where I may differ from some other folks -- if I download something on the "black market" and find I like it and play it a lot, I make it a point to buy a legal copy. Part of that is because the CD almost always sounds better than an mp3 rip, but it's also to support the artists that I like.

Here, here, DonCoat. I download MP3's, and it often leads to me buying the CD. If I do so, then I delete the MP3 from my computer. If I couldn't download MP3's, I'd be less likely to buy CD's, because I rarely listen to the radio or watch music videos.

I do want Serenity to be promoted by more legitimate means. This will make a sequel more receptive to the powers that be. But I also understand the feelings of people that buy a HD-DVD and can't watch it because it's not compatible with whatever. Fair use is fair use, and it's high time that those hundans stop stealing our lawufully given rights.

*************************************************

"I suppose if we couldn't laugh at things that don't make sense, we couldn't react to a lot of life."

ADAPA

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 6:02 PM

Quote:
Some friendly advice from an old geezer....never steal, never be dis-honest, & always work hard. The "things" you obtain in life by working & paying for them are the most rewarding.

True but I'm tired of buying stuff & being disapointed. I'd rather give it a quick listen/watch then, as DonCoat said, pay for the good copy for my collection. We just have to have faith that people who download will become browncoats.

It is an honor to be the first--

Crimson Dark

http://www.davidcsimon.com/crimsondark/index.php?view=comic

CAPTAINJOSH06

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 6:16 PM

I don't like Pirating, not only does it destroy the Industries, but this means that their will be a reduction(flux) in Official Serenity sales.
So anyone who wants to create a large income for the Industries and make them realise this is a very Popular Film/TV series, any of those plans could be seriously hindered.

This Bittorrent is not good and we should do well in making sure it is not hosted on any other Illegal download sites.

RAZZA

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 6:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ShinyEd:
I guess I'm from another generation I suppose, but stealing is stealing...period! I know in today's world the young folks out there are quite used to downloading, copying, burning, etc etc just about every form of entertainment there is.... they feel they have a "right" to get whatever they want, regardless of any ability to pay for it, and without any remorse for stealing.

Some friendly advice from an old geezer....never steal, never be dis-honest, & always work hard. The "things" you obtain in life by working & paying for them are the most rewarding.

Ed:

I hear you wholeheartedly about stealing. I would submit that the only one's stealing in this case are the movie studios. What else do you call selling materials at exorbitant rates that would elicit a healthy profit at half the price? Regardless, I don't see pirating the items as stealing, so much as borrowing a friends copy before deciding to spend the dough on your own copy. I torrented every episode of the original Firefly series, so by your definition I'm a thief who stole from Fox Studios. Wrong again, I also bought two sets of the Firefly DVD's. Why, because the show was great and while I had every episode already, I wanted the actual DVD which has so much more to offer than shoddy bitorrent files. If movie and television producers put a decent product out there, they will make money on it, as evidenced by the fact that they still seem to make money hand over fist despite the easy availability of pirated material.

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

RAZZA

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 6:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainJosh06:
I don't like Pirating, not only does it destroy the Industries, but this means that their will be a reduction(flux) in Official Serenity sales.
So anyone who wants to create a large income for the Industries and make them realise this is a very Popular Film/TV series, any of those plans could be seriously hindered.

This Bittorrent is not good and we should do well in making sure it is not hosted on any other Illegal download sites.

Captain:

So show me all the movie studios and record producers who have been going out of business as a result of bitorrenting? You can't because there aren't any. The industry is healthy and vibrant despite bitorrenting. How can this be, if, as you say, the industry is being destroyed? The only pirating I have a problem with is the mass piracy you see done on a huge scale in countries such as China. Bitorrenting is akin to letting a friend borrow an old vinyl LP to record on a cassette tape. It hurts no one, in fact there have been studies that show that the record industry's profits grew in cities where such services as napster and bitorrenting were widely used.

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

WINDIE

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 7:02 PM

DonCoat,

If you really want a reasonably priced HD drive the xbox360 one works fine with an XP PC.

Just for info.

As for the torrent thing I neither care or am concerned. As far as I can see non of the so called big wig's at any of the studios care about their products enought to carry things through to a conclusion. The number of shows that have been cancelled over the last couple of years is quite shocking.

All that studios/tv stations appear to be interested in are either so called reality shows or long winded/ lets drag this out things like lost ( I enjoyed the first season but bloody hell the writers must be on acid or something for the rest of it). Any way tiny rant over.

Why have they taken the sky from ME

SHINYED

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 7:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Razza:

I hear you wholeheartedly about stealing. I would submit that the only one's stealing in this case are the movie studios. What else do you call selling materials at exorbitant rates that would elicit a healthy profit at half the price? Regardless, I don't see pirating the items as stealing, so much as borrowing a friends copy before deciding to spend the dough on your own copy. I torrented every episode of the original Firefly series, so by your definition I'm a thief who stole from Fox Studios. Wrong again, I also bought two sets of the Firefly DVD's. Why, because the show was great and while I had every episode already, I wanted the actual DVD which has so much more to offer than shoddy bitorrent files. If movie and television producers put a decent product out there, they will make money on it, as evidenced by the fact that they still seem to make money hand over fist despite the easy availability of pirated material.

I would not consider borrowing someone else's products for your use stealing, and I do believe in a "test drive" for things that I want to buy. I suppose I'm too old and out of the loop to really keep up with today's technological options for obtaining free material....so don't think I'm trying to be a goody two-shoes, because I'm not. I just know that somewhere, somehow, someone has to pay for things...usually me I guess.

CAPTAINJOSH06

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 7:34 PM

Im looking on the long term side. If more people begin buying Illegal Copies of DVDs and Cds etc..., the record companies will eventualy go bust, investing in things which will in a short time people will get for cheep or almost free from download sites.

There is an even balance in the Record industry and if Piracy goes up, the balance will shift.

Im not normaly bothered, but in the browncoat world, Serenity going on Pirate copies is not an entirely good idea.
People swapping films or copying films for friends is in affect just as bad, but not on a wide scale like some Pirate set ups.

-CaptainJosh

DAREDEVIL

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 7:47 PM

ok emmmmmmmmmmmmm at least they set another record

DAREDEVIL

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 7:47 PM

ok emmmmmmmmmmmmm at least they set another record

RAZZA

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 8:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainJosh06:
Im looking on the long term side. If more people begin buying Illegal Copies of DVDs and Cds etc..., the record companies will eventualy go bust, investing in things which will in a short time people will get for cheep or almost free from download sites.

There is an even balance in the Record industry and if Piracy goes up, the balance will shift.

Im not normaly bothered, but in the browncoat world, Serenity going on Pirate copies is not an entirely good idea.
People swapping films or copying films for friends is in affect just as bad, but not on a wide scale like some Pirate set ups.

-CaptainJosh

CaptainJosh:

I appreciate your concern for the beleagured entertainment industry, but I submit that if they are unable to adapt to a changing world, they don't deserve to survive. I-Tunes has demonstrated what a successful business model offering music and media online can be, but instead of embracing and profiting from this success, the entertainment industry remains frightened by it. Artists by and large aren't concerned by people downloading their creations online. Hell, many artists offer free downloads of their music on their websites. They do this because it means they can distribute their works without the vaunted entertainment industry as a middleman sucking them dry on the coat tails of their talent. The Entertainment Industry needs to realize that there is huge money to be made offering these services to customers at a reasonable price. Piracy would be non-existent if such an alternative existed. I would much prefer downloading a quality product from the licensed manufacturer at a reasonable price to rolling the dice on a dubious pirated copy. Unfortunately, the industry is still under the mistaken belief that the only way they can continue to make money is to increase their prices and gouge the heck out of people who aren't able to take advantage of the pirating universe or who feel bad about "stealing" from the poor helpless Entertainment Industry. Sorry, I don't buy it, they only have themselves to blame!

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

CAPTAINJOSH06

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 8:54 PM

When you place the argument in that context then I agree, but as you have said Piracy isnt good and the Industry must adapt to eliminate the threat of illegal copies.

How ever, it depends on what you mean on reasonable prices, as Most Official things I see online are at lower prices than if you were to buy it off the shelves.
I bought a game off the shelves for £25 and saw that it could be bought from the internet for around £15 to £20. I honestly thought the game would cost £30+ as it was new, but it didnt.
Now such gaming companies like EA experimented with downloadable games. Personaly it was not a good thing as you had to use a software called EA downloader, and I blieve you pay once and can download the game again if u loose it using your account, how ever if you loose your account, then you got to rebuy the download....

I know games are not Films and so on, but changing the Industry in itself is also a very risky business and a gamble.

-CaptainJosh

MONKSDAD

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 9:00 PM

The story hit IMDB today... Any pub is good pub

http://imdb.com/news/sb/2007-01-17/

"And I think calling him that is an insult to the psychotic lowlife community."

RAZZA

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 9:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainJosh06:
When you place the argument in that context then I agree, but as you have said Piracy isnt good and the Industry must adapt to eliminate the threat of illegal copies.

How ever, it depends on what you mean on reasonable prices, as Most Official things I see online are at lower prices than if you were to buy it off the shelves.
I bought a game off the shelves for £25 and saw that it could be bought from the internet for around £15 to £20. I honestly thought the game would cost £30+ as it was new, but it didnt.
Now such gaming companies like EA experimented with downloadable games. Personaly it was not a good thing as you had to use a software called EA downloader, and I blieve you pay once and can download the game again if u loose it using your account, how ever if you loose your account, then you got to rebuy the download....

I know games are not Films and so on, but changing the Industry in itself is also a very risky business and a gamble.

-CaptainJosh

Captain:

I suspect we agree more than disagree on these issues, but your example is indicitive of how the entertainment industry still hasn't figured it out. EA is one of the worst offenders of this shortsightedness. They have done nothing but put up obstacles for their titles when they try to bring them to the very successful xbox live experience, for example. Instead of doing what every other gaming company has done and using Microsoft's xbox live servers, EA has insisted on using their own servers for multiplayer games on xbox live. This has caused all kinds of havoc and the result has been a poor online experience for EA titles. Ask anyone who plays them on xbox live and you will quickly learn how much they hate EA and their obstinance on this issue. Why did they make it so difficult for you to download the game, and why the possibility that you may lose your game even though you paid for it? Could it be that they don't have a real committment to this kind of distribution model? Could it be that they have their head up their ass and can't figure out how much money they could make if they made it easier and could assure their customers that when they pay for something they own it? This is what I mean when I say the entertainment industry is to blame for a rampant pirate community, not a bunch of theiving scoundrels who just want free music, movies, and games. Sure such people exist, but the vast majority of people who download entertainment media from such sites are just like me and you. That is, willing to pay for a good product if they offer it to us in a simple interface at a reasonable price. For god's sake how can a bunch of "pirating loafers" figure out how to bring their product to market in a more effective and simple manner than industry itself?

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

CITIZEN

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 10:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Heard about this earlier today off of /. Quite frankly, all this has done is prove what everyone (including me) said about DRM. Namely, that it just won't work. In fact, there is exactly no way to secure this type of medium.

DRM is fairly easy to circumnavigate, for a start the best programmers never write the things, but some of the best untapped talent you can bet are working on breaking it. Whether its software music or film it will be broken within weeks of it becoming publicly available, and in many cases since these are nearly always generic protection routines licensed from some other company they will be broken long before release.

But none of these reasons is why DRM is a waste of time. The reason it is a waste of time is because it doesn't do what it says on the tin, in fact it does the exact opposite.

DRM is supposed to stop or dissuade someone from using/listening/watching without original copyright owner 'permission'. What DRM does is push the price up even further than the already scalped prices, making more people want to break the protection. What it does is merely inconvenience 'legal' users by constantly hassling them, or preventing them from using it legally because, as previously discussed, the routines are crap. I have a number of games for instance that I have bought and paid for that I have actually had to crack because the DRM doesn't work on my machine and it assumes that the disc must be counterfeit.

Meanwhile the pirates are using these things quite happily after breaking the DRM.

So well done to those who have created DRM, you've inconvenienced and alienated people who gave you their money, created more pirates and not harmed them one little bit, and far from dissuaded them.

Good job.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

MAZAEN

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 10:49 PM

You can make it all seem nice and fuzzy but pirating movies is still stealing. Some actors/ producers get cuts from the movies they produce. So it's really it's quite possible that it this pirating is in effect stealing from Adam, Nathan and Gina and Joss. In a day an age where movie sales are at an all time low due to increased game sales, if everyone pirated the movies, companies would go out of business and we the browncoat fans wouldn't get that unexpected and against all odds Serenity movie.

CITIZEN

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 10:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mazaen:
You can make it all seem nice and fuzzy but pirating movies is still stealing.

So's the film industry.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

MAZAEN

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 10:52 PM

Yes because someone else does it is OK for everyone to do it too. Sorry I don't buy that.

CITIZEN

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 10:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mazaen:
Yes because someone else does it is OK for everyone to do it too. Sorry I don't buy that.

No, I'm saying I'm not going to shed a tear for theives getting stolen from, especially when the reasons a vast majority of people do it is because of the actions of people in the industry.

They promote piracy more than anyone else.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

SLOWHAND

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 11:07 PM

It's kind of ironic to me. They are trying so hard to stop Pirates that the people that buy the things are getting screwed. Here's an example.

I bought a DVD the other day. It had some kind of copy protection on it. I put it in my PC's DVD player, and it wouldn't play. I looked it up online and I found out that because of the copy protection, it would only play on certain, registered DVD players. My other DVDs play just fine, but these would not play at all. (The DVDs are the Justice League series by the way) So, I spent a ton of money on DVDs that I can't watch. Then I hear from a friend of mine that he'll burn them for me cause he downloaded them! So much for copy protection!

So let's review. They are now releasing DVDs that the people that BUY them cannot watch, but people that want to copy and pirate them can.

That seem right to you?

RAZZA

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 11:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
They promote piracy more than anyone else.

Hear! Hear!

I absolutely love it when I can find common ground with someone I usually disagree with!

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

MAZAEN

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 11:55 PM

No I agree people shouldn't shed tears for movie companies. Movie companies promoting pirating and people pirating = equal mischief.

PHYRELIGHT

Thursday, January 18, 2007 2:53 AM

*snickers* See what happens when you make a bunch of browncoats all techy??

Though a word to the wise: the money lost in all that hacking is probably gonna hurt Universal (our saving grace) as much as Fox (the evil, lecherous humps). Though, serves Fox right for giving us the one-two around Christmas time of 2002.

_______________________________________________________

The Whedonverse:
Where all the women are strong...
All the men are good-looking...
And, all the children are weapons of mass distruction.

SIGMANUNKI

Thursday, January 18, 2007 3:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

But none of these reasons is why DRM is a waste of time. The reason it is a waste of time is because it doesn't do what it says on the tin, in fact it does the exact opposite.

Well, I'm going to disagree with you here. The reasons I gave are reasons for not using DRM.

But, as you pointed out, they aren't the only ones. Nice additions to the list btw

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

SIGMANUNKI

Thursday, January 18, 2007 4:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ShinyEd:
I guess I'm from another generation I suppose, but stealing is stealing...period! I know in today's world the young folks out there are quite used to downloading, copying, burning, etc etc just about every form of entertainment there is.... they feel they have a "right" to get whatever they want, regardless of any ability to pay for it, and without any remorse for stealing.

Some friendly advice from an old geezer....never steal, never be dis-honest, & always work hard. The "things" you obtain in life by working & paying for them are the most rewarding.

Not to pick nits, but by definition, since the original owners still have access to what was "taken", it isn't stealing. What it is is, unauthorized copy.

You might say that I'm just mincing words, but there really is a subtle, but significant distinction. For example, if I take a picture of the pages of a book of yours, have I really stolen it? No, you still have the copy. What I've done is unauthorized copy.

Please note that I'm not saying that either is ok. I'm just pointing out that there is a difference. And yes, there is a difference when it comes time for sentencing if you get caught.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

IVY

Thursday, January 18, 2007 4:20 AM

Hmmmm, I'm pretty much tech stupid, but my husband is a total tech-head (likely to be found surfing Gizmodo at all hours of the day and night). I just read him the initial post in this thread and it seems he knew all about it but didn't bother to tell me because he thought I'd be bored by the tech talk. (which of course led to tech talk...)

Anyway, we have a really sweet HDTV but my husband absolutely refuses to buy a HD DVD player until one technology wins. (I'm old enough to remember VHS/Beta so I actually understand his reasoning). He said that he was actually going to download the pirated version of Serenity as a suprise to me and to see what the quality looks like.

I am a very law-abiding, rule-following person, but I don't feel bad about this one bit. I've personally purchased about 10 copies of Serenity and almost as many box sets of Firefly (for gifts). I will absolutely purchase the HD DVD when we finally have a player. They are getting plenty of my $$ and will, no doubt, get a lot more in the future.

No guilt here.

Ivy

I've been sane a long while now, and change is good...

SIGMANUNKI

Thursday, January 18, 2007 4:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mazaen:

In a day an age where movie sales are at an all time low due to increased game sales, if everyone pirated the movies, companies would go out of business and we the browncoat fans wouldn't get that unexpected and against all odds Serenity movie.

You ever stop to think why games are up so much and movies are down so much?

Let's look at this in terms of just money.

Movie: $20-30 == 1:20-3hrs entertainment

Game: $30-80 == 8-60hrs entertainment

Also, games are interactive.

Now, take a good long hard look at those numbers. Why, honestly WHY would people stick with movies?

And as someone else above said, the games industry is getting hit at least as hard (arguably harder), and do we hear them constantly bitching? No. In fact, the industry is growing.

All the movie/recording industry is doing is crying that the sky is falling.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

ICHITHEKILLER77

Thursday, January 18, 2007 5:20 AM

dont lose all hope my people... if universal brings the movie to XBOX live.. yes the XBOX 360 can download movies on HD and on standard form... and if you look it up movies on XBOX live are selling very well... maybe we should make a petition for that... but you guys need to get a XBOX 360!!!

I miss watching the show :(.... but i got my xbox in handy.. so go to xboxsoft.net

CEDRIC

Thursday, January 18, 2007 6:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Here's hoping that the BDM being up on Bit Torrent will lead some new people to buy the dvd and join the browncoat ranks.

Hear, hear! I don't really like piracy--I know what it feels like for the artist getting ripped--but this is one more way to spread the signal.

Though if the data pirates *really* want to help the cause, they could mass produce illegal discs of Serenity 1 & 2 (the episodes), Our Mrs. Reynolds, and Out of Gas, and hand them out for free. Not that I'm advocating that plan, but if I were Fox, I'd be handing out free samplers of Firefly left and right. It could only boost DVD sales.

"Some things stay with you, 'til the day you die."
On the Drift: Music Inspired by Firefly and Serenity, now on sale at
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bedlambards/from/celtic

LEXIBLOCK

Thursday, January 18, 2007 11:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
I wish you hadn't given this information, and hopefully very few people take advantage of it. Anything that keeps people from buying official Universal DVDs is not good.

Yeah right, because it will have a big effect on wether or not people buy it - no wait, it won't.

MAGDALENA

Thursday, January 18, 2007 11:26 AM

I really don't go for pirated music or movies myownself because I come from an artistic/performance background and know how much it bites into the rights of the performer - but having said that - if there is something I really want and I have the opportunity to try it on pirated copy I do that and if I like it I will buy it later on...

Lets hope most people are like that and end up loving the whole thing so much that they do what I do to show their support!

...lets hope...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I can put one foot in front of the other - I'm Magdalena, & I'm marching with the 76th" http://76thbattalion.homestead.com/index.html

ASARIAN

Thursday, January 18, 2007 12:28 PM

Here's how I see it. Since I already bought the Serenity HD-DVD (even though I don't have a player yet, lol), I have no quams with downloading a hacked version, too. I come in it at being able to have access to the material. Had I not bought the HD-DVD, I wouldn't download it. But considering how many legal Firefly boxes I purchased already (for friends and such), I'd say they owe me at least full access to the material. It's like suddenly they invented a book you couldn't Xerox anymore; how silly would that be? If I need to Xerox a page, or scan it, I'll darn well do so as I please.

But back to access to the material, I make some occasional Firefly art; and I like to take screengrabs from the source direcly. Do it all the time. So, now the man says we can't do that no more with HD-DVD? I say differently. :) I paid for it, I want access to it. Period. Way I figure this, with the hacked HD-DVD copy, us people have been given the highest end of screen-cap resolution ever offered a human soul in this crap-heel 'verse.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

VERTEBREAKER

Thursday, January 18, 2007 2:56 PM

I'm positive this has been brought up, since I only scanned the topic, but this gets the 'Verse a lot of "free" press. Yeah, there might be some people that download it, but honestly, a lot of people might see the hassle in acquiring a near 20 GB movie. It might get people interested in the movie, though. *shrug*

And, like it's been said, those that DO watch it should be instantly converted to Browncoats.

As much as I dislike anyone who's ever downloaded more than two episodes of Firefly without buying the discs, a few people downloading BDM and spreading the good word will probably do more good than bad.

_______________________________________________________________________

KAIN

Thursday, January 18, 2007 4:09 PM

This is the real truth of it, if people see something and like it they will go buy it. EVERYONE I have let borrow my Firefly series are now BROWNCOATS. NO exceptions. The fact that Serenity is the first has got to get someones attention. Maybe one of those greedy execs will realize what we've been trying to tell them for years, PEOPLE WANT THIS!

to everyone that knows you can't stop the signal!

Kain

KAIN

Thursday, January 18, 2007 4:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cedric:
Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Here's hoping that the BDM being up on Bit Torrent will lead some new people to buy the dvd and join the browncoat ranks.

Hear, hear! I don't really like piracy--I know what it feels like for the artist getting ripped--but this is one more way to spread the signal.

Though if the data pirates *really* want to help the cause, they could mass produce illegal discs of Serenity 1 & 2 (the episodes), Our Mrs. Reynolds, and Out of Gas, and hand them out for free. Not that I'm advocating that plan, but if I were Fox, I'd be handing out free samplers of Firefly left and right. It could only boost DVD sales.

"Some things stay with you, 'til the day you die."
On the Drift: Music Inspired by Firefly and Serenity, now on sale at
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bedlambards/from/celtic

Hey Cedric!
Boy are you right, we heard you guys perform a song or two off your CD and how many have I bought now? 6 at last count for friends and one just for my car! Tell Hawke "Kain and Mimi" say Hi and we hope to see you in Alabama, unless ya wanna hit Tennessee on your tour! :biggrin"

Kain

CAPTAINJOSH06

Thursday, January 18, 2007 4:20 PM

My personaly experience being every DVD I have works fine with me, as I have a multi region DVD player and do not use the PC to watch films.

But I honestly believe that the bringing out of Serenity for Pirates to use will be a blow against Universle who us Browncoats like!

When you think of it on the gaming world perspective, companies have done well to make pirates alittle more bored with their products.
If you were to download a game like Medieval II Total War from certain sites (non official copies) then you can play the game, but once you complete it, you want a better experience, so you attempt to play online, how ever....it wont work.
The CD Key, you can use any CD Key you want which looks like an official one, but only an official CD key allows you to play online with the rest of the community!

Now us as a Browncoat Community, think long and hard, if we want this planned MMORPG to be released, or maybe to change Joss's mind and bring out another film or TV episodes to finish the Firefly story, then copy right and reducing the pay to Universal and the Serenity/Firefly Actors is not the way.

TERRI

Thursday, January 18, 2007 4:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainJosh06:
I don't like Pirating, not only does it destroy the Industries, but this means that their will be a reduction(flux) in Official Serenity sales.
So anyone who wants to create a large income for the Industries and make them realise this is a very Popular Film/TV series, any of those plans could be seriously hindered.

This Bittorrent is not good and we should do well in making sure it is not hosted on any other Illegal download sites.

See, the flaw in your logic is that all the people who are downloading the movie, would have bought it on DVD. That's not only not likely, it's not feasible. I mean, Serenity is a great story, and an awesome movie, but to think that 100% of the people who see this movie will become rabid Browncoats is just naive. So, think about it this way: They're watching the movie for free, right? So, you can compare that to watching the movie on HBO. What we want is people watching it, we really shouldn't care how. Because the Browncoats will show themselves, and they will want a real copy, with real Nathan and real Summer looking at them on the cover, and they'll want to buy the series. So, how many people, who have never seen the movie before are going to buy the movie, right off the shelf without having seen if before? I wouldn't. I very rarely buy a movie I've never seen before, maybe one or two, and I have a massive DVD collection. How many have you bought without seeing them? So, you say, they can rent it. Well, that enlarges our pool slightly. Maybe from a couple dozen to a couple hundred. Not many. They're still paying. But, the people who are going to download a free copy that's in the thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands. That increases our pool even more, that's more people who have the opportunity to fall in love with the 'Verse. And that's how I was introduced to the BDM's (renting the movie at Blockbuster) but I had a foot in the 'Verse already, and an a HUGE Joss Whedon fan. Sooooo, granted, we shouldn't be thinking about downloading the movie. We are fans of the 'Verse, we know the struggles, the trials and tribulations, but for those who are just finding out, I say give them a chance. Let them get sucked in and when they fall in love like we have, they'll go out and buy it for themselves. You know what they say: Any publicity is good publicity.

TERRI

Thursday, January 18, 2007 4:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainJosh06:
"But I honestly believe that the bringing out of Serenity for Pirates to use will be a blow against Universle who us Browncoats like!

When you think of it on the gaming world perspective, companies have done well to make pirates alittle more bored with their products.
If you were to download a game like Medieval II Total War from certain sites (non official copies) then you can play the game, but once you complete it, you want a better experience, so you attempt to play online, how ever....it wont work.
The CD Key, you can use any CD Key you want which looks like an official one, but only an official CD key allows you to play online with the rest of the community!"

"Now us as a Browncoat Community, think long and hard, if we want this planned MMORPG to be released, or maybe to change Joss's mind and bring out another film or TV episodes to finish the Firefly story, then copy right and reducing the pay to Universal and the Serenity/Firefly Actors is not the way."

I don't see what your first point has to do with your second. If you want to play the Firefly MMORPG, then you'll have to have the key. You can't play an online RPG offline. Also, bittorrent will most likely be a nonissue because you'll most likely not need to download the game using a torrent, you'll probably be able to download it off the website (with a fee). The MMORPG is already being developed. They wouldn't have started that if they didn't think they had a chance to make money, and I doubt the rate of download on the movie is going to effect that one way or another. They're probably hoping more people will download it, so that there will be omre exposure to the 'Verse out there, so that people will already have some experience there. And like I've said before, not everybody who downoloads the movie would have bought it in the first place. I think that for a series and movie that had a seemed to have a pretty narrow focus, Serenifly can appeal to anybody if they can just give it a chance.

CAPTAINJOSH06

Thursday, January 18, 2007 5:13 PM

Personaly, I have seen movies at the cinema, then waited for the DVD, then bought the DVD and watched it, sometimes lent it you m8s, they watch it, and buy it. Then I watch it as many times i want.

SEAFORT32

Thursday, January 18, 2007 6:12 PM

Wow. I couldn't disagree more. Hacker cred and counter culture acceptance is all cool and all, but that is it. It doesn't get movies made. No suit sitting in the boardroom is going to say "Let's make a movie so it can be downloaded." Sure it shows it is super popular. Say everyone on the planet downloads it. Still won't make a movie, since all that proves is that fans of the material aren't willing to pay for it. I offer it will acutally have the opposite affect. Wouldn't it be more productive to say that HD-DVD Serenity drove actual HD-DVD hardware sales? That would get a movie made. How will downloading content encourage the makers of the content to make more?

Am I Browncoat? I say I'm a Browncoat and download sites are Badger. Didn't Mal have honor among thieves that Badger didn't have? Didn't he return the medicine at the peril of his life? Shouldn't we buy the movie at the peril of our wallets?

I'm not a hater, and I'm sure none of us are. We all just want more Firefly.

GRONIGER

Thursday, January 18, 2007 6:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainJosh06:
My personaly experience being every DVD I have works fine with me, as I have a multi region DVD player and do not use the PC to watch films.

But I honestly believe that the bringing out of Serenity for Pirates to use will be a blow against Universle who us Browncoats like!

Now us as a Browncoat Community, think long and hard, if we want this planned MMORPG to be released, or maybe to change Joss's mind and bring out another film or TV episodes to finish the Firefly story, then copy right and reducing the pay to Universal and the Serenity/Firefly Actors is not the way.

One thing I have noticed in glancing through this, is there are people out there in the 'verse that will follow the rules - whatever they may be - because they are there. And then there are those that 'Aim to misbehave.'

I would have to be the latter. I won't down load a lot of stuff off the net because I am rather stupid when it comes to that stuff. But, there are plenty of time that I refuse to follow the rules just because they are stupid.

I think that pirating Firefly/Serenity stuff off the net is a tribute to all Browncoat and a stand against an overbearing gov't that has to put rules on every gorram thing.

RAZZA

Thursday, January 18, 2007 6:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Seafort32:
Wow. I couldn't disagree more. Hacker cred and counter culture acceptance is all cool and all, but that is it. It doesn't get movies made. No suit sitting in the boardroom is going to say "Let's make a movie so it can be downloaded." Sure it shows it is super popular. Say everyone on the planet downloads it. Still won't make a movie, since all that proves is that fans of the material aren't willing to pay for it. I offer it will acutally have the opposite affect. Wouldn't it be more productive to say that HD-DVD Serenity drove actual HD-DVD hardware sales? That would get a movie made. How will downloading content encourage the makers of the content to make more?

Am I Browncoat? I say I'm a Browncoat and download sites are Badger. Didn't Mal have honor among thieves that Badger didn't have? Didn't he return the medicine at the peril of his life? Shouldn't we buy the movie at the peril of our wallets?

I'm not a hater, and I'm sure none of us are. We all just want more Firefly.

Seafort:

Again, folks keep missing the point here. Peer-to-Peer file sharing actually increases sales of entertainment media. Here are some articles about studies made when Napster what at it's height:

http://news.com.com/Study+Napster+users+buy+more+music/2100-1023_3-243
463.html

http://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSharing_March2004.pdf

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-522383.html

http://partners.nytimes.com/library/tech/00/07/biztech/articles/21naps
ter-study.html

This article:
http://news.com.com/Study+finds+Napster+use+may+cut+into+record+sales/
2100-1023_3-241065.html
actually gives the strongest evidence that this is so, yet the article headline "Study finds Napster use may cut into record sales" makes it sound like just the opposite is true. From the article istelf, I quote:

Quote:
As reported earlier, SoundScan division VNU Marketing tested the theory by looking specifically at sales in stores near universities, where online music has been more widely adopted than in the general public. In those stores, SoundScan data shows that record sales have actually dropped 4 percent in the past two years. In stores near the 67 colleges that have banned Napster, citing an overload on their internal networks, sales have dropped 7 percent in two years.

According to the recording industry's own study, stores located near campuses where Napster was allowed and widely used were better than those at stores near campuses that banned the use of Napster. How can this be if as the article title says, "Napster use may cut into record sales"?

I maintain, that the vast majority of people who use peer-to-peer file sharing are actually very good spending consumers as well! In fact, access to a greater variety of media and a network of like minded people with simliar tastes makes you more likely to spend your money on something than less likely if you ask me. That's just common sense. We are a bandwagon society like it or not.

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

SIGMANUNKI

Thursday, January 18, 2007 7:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainJosh06:

Now us as a Browncoat Community, think long and hard, if we want this planned MMORPG to be released, or maybe to change Joss's mind and bring out another film or TV episodes to finish the Firefly story, then copy right and reducing the pay to Universal and the Serenity/Firefly Actors is not the way.

Sophistry!

We need the game servers to play the MMOG so the risk of putting out a DVD is radically different to that of a MMOG.

Joss is also not pursuing anything on a screen (big or little) with regards to FF/S. So, there is no mind to change when it comes to Joss. All the companies care about it profit. Even if it is a small profit, all they care about is profit. As long as they get it, they're happy. Risk is a very bad thing these days for the movie industry and we've proven to them, even with downloading, they'll make some (or do you honestly think that no-one has downloaded the DVD version of the series or movie?). Now the ball is in there court.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

SIGMANUNKI

Thursday, January 18, 2007 7:41 PM

@Seafort32:

Hyperbole can be used to make a point, but it absolutely cannot be used as an argument. Try again.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

MACAVITY

Thursday, January 18, 2007 7:47 PM

. . . Heh, I was just about to post a similar article from El Reg (which can be seen here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/18/hd-dvd_crack/ ) in the News section. Good thing I checked over here first!

Now, while I pwersonally don't think pirating movies is a good idea - and especially not the Big Damn Movie - I still think that the cracking of the HD-DVD's encryption is extremely shiny.

Just goes to show that no matter how hard you try . . . you can't stop the signal!

"First come smiles, then come lies. Last is gunfire." - Roland Deschain, gunslinger

SIGMANUNKI

Thursday, January 18, 2007 7:49 PM

@Razza:

And as I recall, total sales actually increased after Napster was widely adopted. But, total sales started to go down after the industry took a heavy hand. Apparently they haven't learned a lesson from this. Namely, that you don't bit the hand that feeds.

IMO, they are just pissed that after having a monopoly on distribution for as along as they've existed, the consumer now has the power to make that monopoly to go away. And now those aged bastards are fighting the only way there narrow little minds know how, legally. Well, as the consumers have shown, they can sue and sue and sue, and we'll keep downloading.

I pity them.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

RAZZA

Thursday, January 18, 2007 8:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I pity them.

I agreed with every word until here. I cannot find it my heart to pity anyone this stupid and obstinate.

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

SEAFORT32

Thursday, January 18, 2007 8:29 PM

Ok, so I'm trying to make a point I guess...

I'm just not a fan of taking something that you should pay for.

If Napster and such actually increase sales then why is the record industry trying to prosecute the biggest offenders? Why am I now getting anti-pirate advertisements on some of my DVD's? If peer-to-peer is good for business, why aren't they promoting it? My uncle is a musician and is is PRO downloading. He wants the record companies to go out of business. Anecdotal, I admit.

A big difference between the music industry and the movie industry is the cost. If the record industry goes down the tubes, we will all still have music. It takes almost next to nothing to make music and post it. Movies take $100's of millions (depends on if it is a romantic comedy or Star Wars, true). So if you can show me how the movie execs think that pirating movies is a way to get a return on their investment, then I'll see how that'll get us another Firefly flic. Until then I'm not to keen on it.

I don't want this to devolve into a flame war. So if this starts to get hot I'm out, btw.

RAZZA

Thursday, January 18, 2007 8:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Seafort32:
I don't want this to devolve into a flame war. So if this starts to get hot I'm out, btw.

Seafort:

We all hate (well most of us anyway) flame wars, so I'll promise not to let it devolve into that.

I'm afraid I can't convince you that "..movie execs think that pirating movies is a way to get a return on their investment..." because they don't. That's the problem! They are so blind and stupid to what is virtually staring them in the face that have stuck their head in the sand rather than deal with it. The movie entertainment business is a billion dollar industry. The industry is not in any trouble of going broke because a small minority of peer-to-peer users don't spend money on movie products. As I've said, people who use peer-to-peer networks do in fact buy movies and DVD's. There is evidence to support the supposition that they buy more than non users in fact. I have a large DVD collection and I have also downloaded movies online. Why is it so hard to believe that someone would download a movie, enjoy it, and then want a DVD of it? Is the movie company worried that if they get it free and don't like it they won't buy it? That speaks more to the product they produce than anything else. If they provided us an opportunity to download it as a rental at a reasonable price and let us watch it once you might have a case. They don't give us this option, however, and why is that?

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

RAZZA

Thursday, January 18, 2007 8:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Seafort32:
...No suit sitting in the boardroom is going to say "Let's make a movie so it can be downloaded."

because these empty suits sitting in a boardroom are blind to a distribution model which costs virtually nothing and widely desired by consumers. Doesn't make that distribution model invalid, just the empty suits stupid.

Quote:
Sure it shows it is super popular. Say everyone on the planet downloads it. Still won't make a movie, since all that proves is that fans of the material aren't willing to pay for it. I offer it will acutally have the opposite affect...

Except this makes the assumption that people who download the movie for free will never in fact purchase the DVD. What evidence do you have to support this huge assumption?

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

MACAVITY

Thursday, January 18, 2007 8:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Razza:
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I pity them.

I agreed with every word until here. I cannot find it my heart to pity anyone this stupid and obstinate.

Myself, I pity them because they're stupid and obstinate.

If they weren't so blinkered, we wouldn't have had the hoo-ha with the original Napster and all the file-sharing services that sprang up when Napster went down - instead, they would have said something like "We like your idea, but the way it's executed leaves something to be desired. Would you mind if we formed a partnership to make this a profitable enterprise?"

Instead, though, they went and sued, which got people's dander up and led to the whole DRM-DMCA-CSS-AACS-etc. mess.

There are very few things I'll buy from mainstream entertainment companies - and Doctor Who, Torchwood, and just about anything related to Firefly and the BDM top the list - so most of my money goes to indie groups and labels.

Part of the reason is that the independents in the business are more concerned with keeping their customers happy than they are with the bottom line (because, after all, the happier your customer is, the more likely you are to keep him, and the more likely he is to give you his money).

Another part of the reason is that most of the mainstream stuff is . . . well, to call it trash would be an insult to the trash.

But mostly . . . well, what kind of browncoat would I be if I didn't support the independents?

"First come smiles, then come lies. Last is gunfire." - Roland Deschain, gunslinger

MOONSHINER

Thursday, January 18, 2007 10:06 PM

Well, I don't even possess an HD DVD player, nor an HDTV. The market for HD DVD hasn't really kicked off yet. I don't see any danger in this release leaking onto the internet

SEAFORT32

Thursday, January 18, 2007 11:22 PM

Razza,

Ah! Ok, here we get to the root. We are talking about two different things, I think. Reality and Perception.

You are talking about Reality. Do downloads help or hurt? I browsed through the study you cited and that made it seem to even out or be slightly positive in favor of downloads. Napster did get shutdown at least for a while, so there are probably studies supporting the suit's point of view. I'm not going to argue that one way or the next.

I'm talking about Perception. The suits perceive that downloads are bad, they will cut into profits, and so they will not make a movie that won't make tons-o-cash. They will ignore Reality no matter how much it makes sense. We've all met those kind of people, eh?

Until someone banks on Reality and builds a movie studio around the idea that free downloads are a good thing, we need to deal the Perception that they are a bad thing.

So that's why I won't download that HD-DVD version of Serenity. As a Browncoat who wants to see more sequels I need to be sensitive to that Perception...at least until you start up a movie studio ;) Then I'll download your movies for free!

Thanks for the discussion!

69RDRNR

Thursday, January 18, 2007 11:52 PM

How many HD-DVD owners didn't buy Serenity? Serenity was the first I bought! My real question though is why pirate the HD-DVD...to watch it on your computer? I think that the benefit of HD is somewhat lost on smaller screens. How many people are willing or able to connect their PC to a bigscreen TV. Honestly if you want a "free" version of the movie you are probably better off with the SD version which most people would be capable of watching on whatever display they have. I seriously doubt that someone would watch the HD version and like it without liking the SD version. If you want to argue that it might make HD-DVD more accessible and encourage people to buy into the format, I could see that.

IVY

Friday, January 19, 2007 4:26 AM

We can connect our PC to our big HDTV. We do not own a HD DVD player yet - because we are sitting it out to see what format "wins". As soon as we purchase a HD DVD player, you can be sure Serenity will be purchased the same day.

As I said earlier in this thread, I've purchased about 10 copies of the regular Serenity DVD.

If the movie industry wants to sell more HD DVDs, maybe they should stop all this nonsense with 2 formats.

ugh - I'm too old for all of this. I remember the VHS/Betamax wars....

Ivy

I've been sane a long while now, and change is good...

DARKFLY

Friday, January 19, 2007 9:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MightyRoar:
Quote:
Originally posted by babywiththepower:
Well, considering Serenity already made the money Universal said was required to consider a sequel,

Did it? How much has it made, and how much were Universal after?

Serenity made $39,000,000,000(39 million) at the world box office the budget was $40,000,000,000(40 million) & about 5 months ago I heard Serenity on DVD had sold around 700,000 DVDs so by now its probably sold closer to 800,000 DVD's so if you roughly cacualute the cost of a DVD then on DVD Serenity has made about 10-12 million dollars so the movie has made roughly 50-51 million dollars plus then you got merchandise which will probably add another million.

Serenity came out on the first week of being able to buy HD-DVDs & came the no.1 selling HD-DVD that week

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Things are about to get interesting...Define interesting...Oh GOD oh GOD we're all going to die.

Go to

to see my cool trailer.

SIGMANUNKI

Saturday, January 20, 2007 7:40 AM

DISCLAIMER: It's 2:40am, I'm tired.

@Seafort32:

You seem to be strangely obsessed with totally free downloading as a business model. No-one here is advocating this. What people are saying is that having the downloading going on that is going on today is (arguably) not actually harming anything. Once you accept that, the discussion will take on a very different colour.

Quote:
Originally posted by Seafort32:

If Napster and such actually increase sales then why is the record industry trying to prosecute the biggest offenders? Why am I now getting anti-pirate advertisements on some of my DVD's? If peer-to-peer is good for business, why aren't they promoting it? My uncle is a musician and is is PRO downloading. He wants the record companies to go out of business. Anecdotal, I admit.

It wasn't the recording industry that started the ball rolling on the Napster deal. It was Lars Ulrich of Metallica. And he has said some things regarding this issue that... well... he doesn't know what he's talking about. This then raised a "red flag" for the recording industry and they took over from there. Needless to say it went wildly out of control.

You see, these execs have no clue how tech works. They stopped listening at the point in which people said that people could get the music for free. They didn't study the effects of what was going on, nor how prolific it was to see if it was worth going after. They even ignored every study that showed that it may have been a good thing for sales (which it was). They just started suing. After Napster, they went after similar companies and then started suing individuals.

And now after having done all of these things the recording industry would look pretty stupid if they admitted that they were wrong. That and the fact that if they admitted defeat/wrongness/etc, they probably think that it would give the impression that they were giving the ok for downloading.

Basically, they've made such a big deal about it, they can't stop now.

The problem is that every single tactic that they've used has had zero effect of slowing downloading down. In fact, it's arguable that it has increased. Or in other words, the recording industry has widely published a method of "rebelling against the man" to every pissed of teenager that there is.

Oh, and one piece of fud that they recording industry has used to support there conjecture that downloading is hurting sales is that in the past years they've had to lay off employees and there profits have gone down. This certainly is true, but the causes are far from what they say they are. Basically, all you have to do is normalize the economic depression and compare the recording industry to other industries. The results are that the recording industry has actually done the best out of all of them.

Regarding to anti-piracy messages on your DVD's... they've always been there in one form or another. Nothing has changed except for the presentation. And that tends to change over time regardless so this development is rather insignificant.

Your uncle probably wants the recording industry to go out of business because they screw artists. The contracts are always wildly in favour of the label. A good example of this is when TLC filed for bankruptcy shortly after a very successful album release.

Quote:
Originally posted by Seafort32:

A big difference between the music industry and the movie industry is the cost. If the record industry goes down the tubes, we will all still have music. It takes almost next to nothing to make music and post it. Movies take $100's of millions (depends on if it is a romantic comedy or Star Wars, true). So if you can show me how the movie execs think that pirating movies is a way to get a return on their investment, then I'll see how that'll get us another Firefly flic. Until then I'm not to keen on it.

You're posing the question in a way that tells me that you aren't really willing to listen. But, I'll assume that I'm wrong and g

SEAFORT32

Saturday, January 20, 2007 12:59 PM

Ok, I think we are at the agree to disagree part of the conversation.

I don't agree or disagree with anything you are saying regarding actual or potential damage to any industry.

I'm not trying to argue that downloads "actually" hurt or help. I'm just trying to point out that the suits "perceive" that they hurt, and make decisions based on that perception. It is that perception I worry about as a Browncoat.

You are arguing reality, and I'm arguing perception. Though some say that perception is reality...whatever.

For fear of opening up another can of worms, I have heard CDs made by a guy in a 10x10 shack with a few thousand dollars of equipment. Indistinguishable from pros. Age of the digital and all that.

But any hoo. I concede that you just may be right about downloads having no actual or material hurt. Do you see my point that the suits think it hurts and make decisions based on that?

KJ

Sunday, January 21, 2007 3:39 PM

What the movie industry and recording industry needs to do is hire virus hackers to sabotage pirated materials, then when everyone who downloads would get a little 'bonus'.

PINBALLWIZARD

Sunday, January 21, 2007 4:34 PM

I'm not a fan of piracy, especially in the case of the BDM. But I think the fact that someone has already broken the newest anti-piracy code is hilarious.

No, I am not insane, I am crazy. Thank you for asking.

DONCOAT

Sunday, January 21, 2007 4:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by KJ:
What the movie industry and recording industry needs to do is hire virus hackers to sabotage pirated materials, then when everyone who downloads would get a little 'bonus'.

Ironically, Sony/BMG did the exact opposite. They placed a rootkit (virus) on their legitimate CDs that infected legitimate users. What's more, when they got caught they released an "uninstaller" for it that was, itself, a virus. Google "Sony rootkit" for the full story.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

CEDRIC

Sunday, January 21, 2007 5:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

To get the level of sound quality it required 10's of thousands of dollars worth of equipment, with maintenance and monthly rent costs. But, at that level, I'm probably very much low balling it.

If you don't want to spend money on building a recording studio yourself (really who does this?), you're probably looking at about $100/hr as a low figure for studio time. Though with expertise comes a much higher price.

With regards to cost of making a film, it isn't as much as you might think. You see, a lot of movies are made in California which has ridiculous fees when it comes to shooting locations. Also, companies that work out of California charge ridiculous fees because they have to pay ridiculous rent and pay ridiculous salaries because homes/appartments cost a ridiculous amount of money. You might note that movies save millions by shooting not in California.

Basically, a lot of the cost is artificial.

You also don't seem to realize that a bunch of friends can make a cheap movie that is actually pretty good. To Know A Jedi is a fan film which I believe was made for about a grand.

Sigmanunki,

I agree with you that downloading actually increases sales, even though this seems counterintuitive.

However, your comparison of the movie and music industries is way off. For one thing, you compare big studio recording with fan films--the two are not equivalent. A more accurate comparison would be to compare independent music with independent film. I know by experience that making a sellable indy album is far less expensive than making a sellable indy film--Done The Impossible cost far more to make than On the Drift. And I believe both are typical in terms of production cost for indy products.

As for who builds their own studio--a lot of musicians do. The Brobdingnagian Bards sell thousands of CDs a year, all produced at their home studio. My own band rents a studio that is in a friend's house. It's not that uncommon.

*rant warning--not directed at Sigmanunki*
By the way, while we're all talking about how piracy is noble because it strikes back at big industry--let's remember that data pirates do not discriminate: My own indy music is on Limewire, without my permission. It's not there because someone thought, "Man, those Bedlam Bards are getting rich off of overcharging for their music; I'm gonna take them down." If they thought that, they need to be locked up for insanity. It's not there because someone thought, "People should be able to sample this music before they buy." After all, I've made it possible to download nearly half the album for free anyway, and you can hear samples of every song online. Hell, I want people to hear my music for free; it increases sales. What bothers me is that the folks at Limewire didn't even ask permission. It's not noble; it's rude.
*rant over*

"Some things stay with you, 'til the day you die."
On the Drift: Music Inspired by Firefly and Serenity, now on sale at
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bedlambards/from/celtic

SAMEERTIA

Sunday, January 21, 2007 8:42 PM

At 19.6 gig?
Okeee... doing the math...
I can...
a) rent from Blockbuster for $3.00
b) buy from Amazon for $14.99
c) buy on special order from my local video store- $19.95

OR I can take forty-five minutes to download a 19.6 gig pirated movie...

My regular salary as a manager comes to about 18.50 an hour... at forty-five minutes download at average connection speeds with my laptop...that means that I'm 'spending' roughly 15$ salary to get a pirated copy of a film that I could order off of Amazon for the same price, or could rent from Blockbuster five times over.

I'm not seeing the monetary benefit here. But then, I'm wierd that way. Plus, I have issues with stealing. *shrug*

SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, January 21, 2007 10:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Seafort32:

I'm not trying to argue that downloads "actually" hurt or help. I'm just trying to point out that the suits "perceive" that they hurt, and make decisions based on that perception. It is that perception I worry about as a Browncoat.

But, suits only care about the bottom line. So, in suit language:

Suit 1: Ug, movie make money.
Suit 2: Ug, you right, make money
Suit 1: Make more money. Make more movie.
Suit 2: Ug.

Basically, when it comes down to the decision to make a movie, they only care about the bottom line. If it's in the black, more movie. If not, no more movie. As Michael Moore has said, they only allow him to continue making movies because he makes them money. What else would fund him to make movies that are actually fight /against/ the industry.

The downloading issue is a side issue that they deal with separately. And arguably, they don't have the mental capacity to keep all these things in mind when considering whether to green light any particular movie.

So, as long as enough people buy it for it to be profitable, all is well and good with the world.

Quote:
Originally posted by Seafort32:

You are arguing reality, and I'm arguing perception.

But, in this case they aren't even an approximation; they are pretty much opposites. Sure suits make decisions based on there perceptions, but in the case of downloading those decisions are not really linked to green lights. Though they are linked to the lawyers that will sue the downloaders if they are caught. But, that's pretty much the extent.

Basically, if they make money they are happy. If they perceive something is taking away money, they will go after the people that they think are "costing" them money regardless of the reality of the situation.

They are pretty much separate issues in the industry.

Quote:
Originally posted by Seafort32:

For fear of opening up another can of worms, I have heard CDs made by a guy in a 10x10 shack with a few thousand dollars of equipment. Indistinguishable from pros. Age of the digital and all that.

Shiny, what album?

Quote:
Originally posted by Seafort32:

Do you see my point that the suits think it hurts and make decisions based on that?

As basically stated above, yup

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, January 21, 2007 10:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by KJ:
What the movie industry and recording industry needs to do is hire virus hackers to sabotage pirated materials, then when everyone who downloads would get a little 'bonus'.

Are you aware of how many laws this would break? A wrong + a wrong does not equal a right.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, January 21, 2007 10:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:

Ironically, Sony/BMG did the exact opposite. They placed a rootkit (virus) on their legitimate CDs that infected legitimate users. What's more, when they got caught they released an "uninstaller" for it that was, itself, a virus. Google "Sony rootkit" for the full story.

For that matter, it actually damaged people's PC's. Which, as I recall, how they got caught in the first place. At any rate, very illegal.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, January 21, 2007 10:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cedric:

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

With regards to cost of making a film, it isn't as much as you might think. You see, a lot of movies are made in California which has ridiculous fees when it comes to shooting locations. Also, companies that work out of California charge ridiculous fees because they have to pay ridiculous rent and pay ridiculous salaries because homes/appartments cost a ridiculous amount of money. You might note that movies save millions by shooting not in California.

Basically, a lot of the cost is artificial.

You also don't seem to realize that a bunch of friends can make a cheap movie that is actually pretty good. To Know A Jedi is a fan film which I believe was made for about a grand.

...snip...

However, your comparison of the movie and music industries is way off. For one thing, you compare big studio recording with fan films--the two are not equivalent.

I actually wasn't comparing them. I only made mention to show that we can make pretty good movies for VERY cheap i.e. technology is making the industry less and less viable. At least less viable they way it is currently being run.

Quote:
Originally posted by Cedric:

A more accurate comparison would be to compare independent music with independent film.

Not really.

It's all about in industry A it cost X money to do what industry A does. Then, some Joe makes what industry A does for ridiculously little money, especially by comparison. When considering the quality of Joe's work, it's pretty damn good even compared to what is produced by the industry.

That's really that the litmus test is for whether it's worth it or not.

Quote:
Originally posted by Cedric:

As for who builds their own studio--a lot of musicians do. The Brobdingnagian Bards sell thousands of CDs a year, all produced at their home studio. My own band rents a studio that is in a friend's house. It's not that uncommon.

Not that uncommon, and prolific are two very different things. What I was getting at was that comparing how many bands there are v.s. how many people build there own studio, the ratio is rather low.

Quote:
Originally posted by Cedric:

What bothers me is that the folks at Limewire didn't even ask permission. It's not noble; it's rude.

Are you sure that they had a choice? Perhaps some guy using there software put it there. I doubt they check every file that gets put on there network. They probably don't even know it's there.

It might be the same problem that Napster came into after the recording industry got after them. Namely, that it is impossible to filter songs when the upload is use controlled. So, they might not be trying.

A friendly email might go a long way if you really want to get those songs taken down.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

SEAFORT32

Monday, January 22, 2007 3:47 AM

As far as the album, it was a children's album done for charity. Done by the front man from the "Presidents of the United States of America" Chris Ballew. They had a few hits a few years ago (Kitty, Peaches). I have a copy, but I won't burn it ;) at his request. Wants all the money to go to charity. Pretty good stuff if you have kids and are sick of the Disney stuff. He also did the theme song to the Drew Carey show, "Cleveland Rocks" in the same little studio, and produced some other bands' music. He says the hard part isn't quality recording, it is who you know to get it distributed, and the Internet really evens out the playing field.

Anyhoo. I was arguing exactly what you said that the perception and reality could very well be opposites. I can't buy that the suits don't care about downloads, and only the lawyers do. If the music industry is against it then the movie industry will be too. The difference is the download size and access to broad band. Music is very small, and people download just a song at a time. Fast, easy, lots of volume. A movie is huge! 10+gb for a HD version. The movie industry probably isn't as vocal because people just aren't doing it...yet. More broadband, more movie downloads, more noise and lawsuits from the movie industry. I think that perception (wrong as it may be) that downloads cut into profits is real. That perception will have a real affect on what movies will be made if it is thought nobody will buy it, just download it.

This is getting really far off from actual reality at this point, and veering way into the hearts and minds of people who run a business that I really can only make guesses about.

My personnel choice is to pay for anything I care about to make sure they make more of it.

MICJWELCH

Monday, January 22, 2007 2:14 PM

I never would have bought Firefly if I hadn't been able to download it first.

"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."

CEDRIC

Monday, January 22, 2007 7:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
[B
Quote:
Originally posted by Cedric:

What bothers me is that the folks at Limewire didn't even ask permission. It's not noble; it's rude.

Are you sure that they had a choice? Perhaps some guy using there software put it there. I doubt they check every file that gets put on there network. They probably don't even know it's there.

It might be the same problem that Napster came into after the recording industry got after them. Namely, that it is impossible to filter songs when the upload is use controlled. So, they might not be trying.

A friendly email might go a long way if you really want to get those songs taken down.

Hmmm. Do they have a choice about hosting illegal copies of copyrighted material? Yeah, I think they do. And the people who put it up there definitely had a choice about it.

And as for a friendly email to Limewire--no one at Limewire responded when I contacted them. So do you think the sites where we can download the HD Serenity would stop making it available if someone at Universal wrote them a polite email? Interesting theory.

"Some things stay with you, 'til the day you die."
On the Drift: Music Inspired by Firefly and Serenity, now on sale at
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bedlambards/from/celtic

KJ

Wednesday, January 24, 2007 3:46 AM

If someone found a way to remove 1/10th of a cent from your paycheck, how many 1/10th's could you afford to overlook?

PONGLUVER

Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:37 PM

So fail to realize several things:

a) Joss doesn't make a lot of money, true he ain't starving, but you not stealing from Ben Affleck either.

b) This DOES hurt the chances of a sequel or anything else Joss wants to do. If movie executives believe his fans are not just pirates but pioneers of piracy, they will be even more unlikely to OK a project he might want to do.

c) I manage a video store, and i can see first hand that piracy does effect sales. For instance: When "The Benchwarmers" finally showed up on pirate bay, our sales dropped 20% in the subsequent 3 weeks.

I polled random customer at my store (boredom sets in quickly).

Say 500 people DL Serenity. Only about 10% are likely to still buy that movie. 20% say they would have purchased the movie anyways but see no point in it since they already have it. So instead of selling 150 copies you sell only 50 copies. Now imagine that on a large scale. Is that hard proof that pirating this dvd is gonna ruin Joss? No. That was a little poll at one blockbuster over about a weeks time. But it shows from peoples own mouths the possibility that it could. What REAL fan would want to chance that? A real fan could buy a copy of the movie and GIVE it to someone, and ask, if you like it, do the same. Thats what i have done. I have purchased 11 copies, and about half of those people purchased extra copies and gave it to someone else. That is helping Joss. Not DLing it.

Im not againt piracy, let me repeat, I AM NOT AGAINST PIRACY.

I am just against pirating Joss' work. I would think any of his true fans would think that too. To say not paying for Joss's work really supports it is stupid, especially when it make so little money to begin with.

SIGMANUNKI

Wednesday, January 24, 2007 11:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Seafort32:

I can't buy that the suits don't care about downloads, and only the lawyers do.

I never said that they didn't care. I only said that downloading and green lighting movies were separate issues. It's that the front lines of the battle is not done by the execs, but by the lawyers. And it's the execs that command the lawyers.

Quote:
Originally posted by Seafort32:

If the music industry is against it then the movie industry will be too.

And they've said as much.

Quote:
Originally posted by Seafort32:

The difference is the download size and access to broad band. Music is very small, and people download just a song at a time. Fast, easy, lots of volume.

Actually that's not true. People do not download a song at a time. In fact, not only do they download whole albums at a time, but whole discography's are common on BT sites.

Quote:
Originally posted by Seafort32:

A movie is huge! 10+gb for a HD version. The movie industry probably isn't as vocal because people just aren't doing it...yet. More broadband, more movie downloads, more noise and lawsuits from the movie industry.

Again wrong. Movies are not huge by any stretch of the imagination. Common sizes are 700MB and 1.4 GB. This isn't big.

Also, it is common to have shrunk DVD's available for download (4.37 GB) and it's becoming more and more common to see full DVD's available (7-8GB). People don't really blink at these sizes anymore as HDD sizes are getting quite large (as in 250GB+) for cheap.

There is also the fact that the more people in the swarm that are uploading/downloading, the faster people get the files. Bittorrent is very scalable. There's also the little fact that one can start a torrent and walk away. All that needs to happen is for the computer to remain on and connected to the internet. So, what does it matter if it takes 10 minutes or a couple weeks or more?

For that matter, the whole point of this thread is that people are doing it now!

I would imagine that the movie industry isn't being very vocal on the issue because they are letting the recording industry take the lead. Not only does this let the recording industry take most of the legal fees on this issue, it also allows the movie industry to largely avoid the... negative public opinion.

Quote:
Originally posted by Seafort32:

I think that perception (wrong as it may be) that downloads cut into profits is real. That perception will have a real affect on what movies will be made if it is thought nobody will buy it, just download it.

I never said that the perception that downloads cut into profits wasn't real.

But, risk analysts will largely decide what gets made and what doesn't. And they take into account history into the equation. If movies of a certain type, with a certain audience, have shown to be profitable, and the historical profit margin shows that it will make money, then the movie will be made. Or at least it would be put into the "not really a risk" category and the execs get to choose which ones they think will make the most money.

In all honesty, I really think that you are putting way too much emphasis on the impact on downloading. It has been going on for years with very little impact on what gets green lit or not. Or do you have evidence to the contrary?

Quote:
Originally posted by Seafort32:

My personnel choice is to pay for anything I care about to make sure they make more of it.

That is my opinion as well. My only question that I have to you is, how do you know what you care about unless you take a look first?

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

SIGMANUNKI

Wednesday, January 24, 2007 11:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cedric:

Hmmm. Do they have a choice about hosting illegal copies of copyrighted material? Yeah, I think they do. And the people who put it up there definitely had a choice about it.

Actually, if they don't know about it the asking if they have a choice in the matter is moot. To make a choice, one must know that the question exists.

And we aren't talking about the people who put it up there, we are talking about Limewire itself.

I know that this is probably an emotional issue for you, but we do have to look at it rationally. Otherwise, the conversation will degrade rapidly.

So, how exactly does Limewire work? Is it like Napster so they actually host the files themselves? Or is it like Kaaza, so they don't? A quick google says it is the latter (Limewire is Gnutella compatible):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnutella

Limewire doesn't actually host the files themselves, it is the user that does that. Also, how searching works, Limewire servers might not even be contacted and even if they are, the file transfer is negotiated between the node that has the file(s) and the node that wants them. So, Limewire is "out of the loop" again.

Technologically speaking, Limewire can't really stop what's going on aside from banning users if they find copy-righted material on there computer(s). But, again this isn't really possible as who's to say what's copy-righted or not? One cannot determine this by purely examining the file. It takes someone to point it out.

Quote:
Originally posted by Cedric:

And as for a friendly email to Limewire--no one at Limewire responded when I contacted them. So do you think the sites where we can download the HD Serenity would stop making it available if someone at Universal wrote them a polite email? Interesting theory.

Interesting. You're inferring that what I've asked of what you've done, applies to others as well. This is not the case. Every situation is different.

First off, are you sure you contacted the correct department? Did you call them personally? Did you contact them or did your lawyer? Companies seem to react better to lawyers than "just some Joe." How many contact attempts were made? etc.

Secondly, any BT site that might host HD Serenity is a very different beast. As in, they are NOT a company. Though from time to time, there are a great number of these sites that get shutdown. Companies like Universal are actually quite hard at work.

Basically, they aren't asked. Those sites get a cease and desist with the threat of getting sued. We all remember the whole t-shirt fiasco from just a couple months back, right?

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

SIGMANUNKI

Thursday, January 25, 2007 12:11 AM

@Pongluver:

My god, where do I start.

You fail to realize something, where you work is quickly becoming an antiquity. Or do you think that things like NetFlix don't have an impact on your bottom line? Also, what other factors what there beside a movies showing up on a BT site that might effect sales? Because, I got to tell you, as soon as a movie becomes available to the general public, hours later it's on the net.

I got a question for you. What kind of math are you using? 30% of 150 is 45 not 50. What kind of stats are you using? Likely are probably do NOT translate to an actual sale. The actual hit to the industry is not decided by what people think they'll do, but what they actually do.

Basically, a poll done over a week at a store where people have gone to rent a movie is hardly representative of the population in general. Not to mention that only a percentage of that 30% would actually buy it IF you take what they say at face value. That's just stats 101.

"""
A real fan could buy a copy of the movie and GIVE it to someone, and ask, if you like it, do the same.
"""

Bullshit! A real fan loves what they are a fan of. This typically goes along with buying merchandise from whatever they are a fan of, but not necessarily. Some people just don't have the money to spend.

But, to say that because I didn't buy copies to give away to other people makes me not a "real fan" is ludicrous and, quite frankly, offensive.

"""
That is helping Joss. Not DLing it.
"""

It only helps Joss IF Joss gets money from each sale. And even then, only if the DLing replaces a sale. An argument can be made that it would help the series, but if that was true, we'd have season 2 (the DVD sales are quite impressive).

"""
To say not paying for Joss's work really supports it is stupid, especially when it make so little money to begin with.
"""

Actually, since no-one here said this, it makes you stupid for say this.

EDIT: It actually does support it in a way. It lets people know that it is popular. Please note that one can support someone in more than one way.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

PONGLUVER

Thursday, January 25, 2007 5:40 AM

Lets pay attention instead of barking out stupid comments.

Sales of dvd's make studios money which in turn makes them more likely to fund any projects Joss if they view him as being someone who can make them money. TO help Joss doesn't mean it has to go directly in his pocket.

Its 30% of the 500 people who download it. Read the WHOLE paragraph next time. And i believe i stated that it was not a scientific poll, but it WAS from the mouths of actual people and does represent to a degree (albeit small) what an average person might do.

SO before making asinine statment's you should finish you homework.

also....

6IXSTRINGJACK said and i quote "Piracy gives you a choice to support what you really like. Piracy of CDs and DVDs is like giving people a vote as to what they like and support".

So before calling someone stupid, make sure you aren't making yourself look stupid.

btw

Quote:
"Bullshit! A real fan loves what they are a fan of. This typically goes along with buying merchandise from whatever they are a fan of, but not necessarily. Some people just don't have the money to spend.

But, to say that because I didn't buy copies to give away to other people makes me not a "real fan" is ludicrous and, quite frankly, offensive."

Any REAL fan can find a way to save up 13 dollars for a DVD. And i didn't say you HAD to buy other people copies to be a real fan, don't put words in my mouth. I said a real fan COULD, as in find another way BESIDES pirating to pass the word on. Hell, you could bring your own copy of it and let someone watch it. The same purpose is fulfilled. There is always another way other than possibly hurting sales of something you are supposed to be a fan of. THAT is my point.

LOCRAY

Thursday, January 25, 2007 10:04 AM

had it not been for piracy, I would not be here and would never have seen serenity in the first place and would then never have BOUGHT firefly (after I downloaded and watched it).

PONGLUVER

Thursday, January 25, 2007 7:33 PM

Locray, in response to you, i believe that piracy will bring in some people, like yourself. Those people are in the 10% i eluded to earlier. There are several shows i fell in love with through piracy i'd have never seen otherwise (Roswell, Veronica Mars, Dead Like Me). I bought them all. My Concern is the others who would not follow the same path you apparently have. I myself have several friends who have (to my chagrin) downloaded Buffy and Angel, and Dig them, but see no point in buying them now that they have them on server. Be honest, THAT is far more common with the average pirate that what WE have done. THAT kind of thing is why i don't support this. I know for a fact, that my friends would buy the series if they couldn't download them. Like i said, i'm NOT against internet piracy. I AM against pirating the work of someone we are supposed to be fans of and who needs every DVD sell possible as it is. The main point most here seem to say is, "There is NO PROOF Piracy Hurts DVD Sales". True, but there is also no proof that it doesn't either. MY point is, we are supposed to be the most loyal fans in existence right now, how could we support something that could POSSIBLY hurt the very thing we are supposed to be fans of?

I'm not saying don't pirate. Hell, pirate to your hearts content. I am DL-ing music as i type this. I am saying that perhaps we shouldn't promote pirating "OUR" verse, because it might bite us on the ass later. If it can POSSIBLY, even a fraction of a percent, hurt Joss or his future projects, as a fan i have to say its not worth it.

RAZZA

Saturday, January 27, 2007 8:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by pongluver:
Locray, in response to you, i believe that piracy will bring in some people, like yourself. Those people are in the 10% i eluded to earlier. There are several shows i fell in love with through piracy i'd have never seen otherwise (Roswell, Veronica Mars, Dead Like Me). I bought them all. My Concern is the others who would not follow the same path you apparently have. I myself have several friends who have (to my chagrin) downloaded Buffy and Angel, and Dig them, but see no point in buying them now that they have them on server.

Pong:

Would have bought the "several shows" you fell in love with had you not found them through piracy? Maybe, but probably not because you wouldn't have known about them. Okay, your cheap friends didn't buy once they pirated. I got news for you! They never would have bought in the first place! Even if they had been given a copy of the DVD's by a friend and pirating were non-existant. The net result of your own arbitrary poll is that sales were increased from consumers who never would have otherwise wasted their time thinking about the shows in question.

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

PONGLUVER

Sunday, January 28, 2007 1:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Razza:
Pong:
Would have bought the "several shows" you fell in love with had you not found them through piracy? Maybe, but probably not because you wouldn't have known about them.

You see i was agreeing that in SOME CASES piracy CAN open people up to new shows they wouldn't see. Had i ever saw them in a non-piracy setting, yes, i would have still purchased them. Once again, for the THIRD TIME, I am not against piracy. I was conceding that point so i don't understand where you are going with that. You aren't pointing out anything that wasn't covered.

Quote:
Okay, your cheap friends didn't buy once they pirated. I got news for you! They never would have bought in the first place! Even if they had been given a copy of the DVD's by a friend and pirating were non-existant.

I got news for you, they would. I actually KNOW them. My friends liked those shows BEFORE they dl'd them, those were just SUPPOSED to tide them over until they could buy them. Now they see no point in buying them. So i dont understand your basis for this asinine statement.

Quote:
The net result of your own arbitrary poll is that sales were increased from consumers who never would have otherwise wasted their time thinking about the shows in question.

And in reading my arbitrary poll, you are assuming that none of them had ever heard of the movie. That was never said, in fact all of the people i counted in the poll has SEEN the movie. So your deduction of the sales increase is once again, wrong. 3 for 3, good job.

I am frankly amazed by the comments made by people here without fully reading (or at least comprehending) the posts they are commenting on.

RAZZA

Sunday, January 28, 2007 2:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pongluver

You see i was agreeing that in SOME CASES piracy CAN open people up to new shows they wouldn't see. Had i ever saw them in a non-piracy setting, yes, i would have still purchased them. Once again, for the THIRD TIME, I am not against piracy. I was conceding that point so i don't understand where you are going with that. You aren't pointing out anything that wasn't covered.

For someone who isn't against piracy, you sure seem to have a problem with it! If you aren't against it why are you insulting me and others in this discussion so vehemently? Is Joss' work somehow more sacred than every other artists work out there?

Quote:
I got news for you, they would. I actually KNOW them. My friends liked those shows BEFORE they dl'd them, those were just SUPPOSED to tide them over until they could buy them. Now they see no point in buying them. So i dont understand your basis for this asinine statement.

Since your friends didn't in fact buy them, perhaps you didn't know them as well as you thought. Sorry for calling them cheap, but if the shoe fits... No need to call me asinine :(

Quote:
And in reading my arbitrary poll, you are assuming that none of them had ever heard of the movie. That was never said, in fact all of the people i counted in the poll has SEEN the movie. So your deduction of the sales increase is once again, wrong. 3 for 3, good job.

I am frankly amazed by the comments made by people here without fully reading (or at least comprehending) the posts they are commenting on.

Actually, you never said they had seen it before, so I'm not sure how I was suppose to divine that fact from your post, but no biggie. I suspect that the 20% that said "..they would have purchased the movie anyways but see no point in it since they already have it.." wouldn't purchase even if they didn't have it. In any case, since they had seen it before downloading it, the poll isn't very indicitive of some of the assertions that myself and Sigmanuki have been proposing.

Namely, that people who would never have otherwise watched and fallen in love with the show did so as a result of DLing it, and then unlike your friends, actually purchased it. Posts by Micjwelch and Locray earlier in this thread, my own personal experience, as well as some of the research I posted earlier support that assertion.

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

PONGLUVER

Sunday, January 28, 2007 3:25 AM

I have a problem with calling yourself a fan of someones work then actively interfering with its success. And i never called you asinine. I said your statement was. Considering i know my friends spending habits and know that movies/shows they haven't been able to download they have purchased in the past. I have no problem calling them cheap. They are. And the was no need to divine....... or perhaps derive is the word? IT was relevant only if the argument you tried to bring was brought. I am not waging war on piracy. I am waging war on people who call themselves fans, but aren't dedicated enough to spend 13 bucks on a DVD. That's not a fan. Thats not respectful to the verse. Thats not a Browncoat.

You ask is Joss' work more sacred than everyone else's?

Yes. I am a fan. In the truest sense if the word. I watched Buffy/Angel/Firefly from day one. I truly believe if you a really a fan of someones work, then you have no right to steal it. Especially in the Jossverse, where things get canceled so easily. When every DVD sale counts SO MUCH. I cannot fathom how a real browncoat would ever support it. Do i care if you pirate from George Lucas. Hell No. But on a site dedicated to someones creation, to openly support STEALING IT!?

That is insane.

RAZZA

Sunday, January 28, 2007 3:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pongluver:
I have a problem with calling yourself a fan of someones work then actively interfering with its success. And i never called you asinine. I said your statement was. Considering i know my friends spending habits and know that movies/shows they haven't been able to download they have purchased in the past. I have no problem calling them cheap. They are. And the was no need to divine....... or perhaps derive is the word? IT was relevant only if the argument you tried to bring was brought. I am not waging war on piracy. I am waging war on people who call themselves fans, but aren't dedicated enough to spend 13 bucks on a DVD. That's not a fan. Thats not respectful to the verse. Thats not a Browncoat.

You ask is Joss' work more sacred than everyone else's?

Yes. I am a fan. In the truest sense if the word. I watched Buffy/Angel/Firefly from day one. I truly believe if you a really a fan of someones work, then you have no right to steal it. Especially in the Jossverse, where things get canceled so easily. When every DVD sale counts SO MUCH. I cannot fathom how a real browncoat would ever support it. Do i care if you pirate from George Lucas. Hell No. But on a site dedicated to someones creation, to openly support STEALING IT!?

That is insane.

Ahh, now I understand. You are a TRUE fan and everyone else who disagrees with you are low life scum who couldn't possibly be fans. How very self righteous of you. I see now that piracy isn't the issue at all, only your belief in your own superiority over all other fans of Joss' work. As a fan, I humbly disagree with you, but since I'm not a TRUE fan it doesn't really matter does it?

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

OPERATIVE1985

Sunday, January 28, 2007 3:54 AM

as much as I love Serenity and Firefly, i really am not going to even try to download a 20gb rip of Serenity in HD. I plan on buying the HD-DVD drive for the xbox 360 and buy serenity. Does anyone know what special features are on the HD version of Serenity?

"I already know you will not see reason" - The Operative
_________________________________________________
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature
_________________________________________________

PONGLUVER

Sunday, January 28, 2007 4:51 AM

i believe they are the same as the dvd release, i haven't got to explore the dvd all that much. However, i bought the Australian 2-disc collectors tin version and it has more features and is rather cheap from ezydvd.com.

Anyways, Razza. Nice cynical way to respond and twist my statements. Can't attack my argument, so just attack me. Quite the childish approach. That's Fine. Perhaps we will just have to agree to disagree on the subject. But you were semi right. If you (hypothetically anyone, not necessarily YOU) agree with stealing material, then no i don't consider you a fan of that material, just someone jumping on a bandwagon who is too cheap to invest in the bandwagon. Sorry if that offends you or anyone else here, but....how did you put it? .....If the shoe fits.

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