Firefly River vs. Serenity River : fanfic portrayal

POSTED BY: EmpireX
UPDATED: Thursday, March 8, 2007 02:01
VIEWED: 30420
PAGE 1 of 1

EMPIREX

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 6:19 PM

I was reading a Riverfic the other day... it was set post-BDM and River was paired up romantically with a Main Character (I don't want to say who the main character was because I'm not wanting to point fingers at a particular author or 'ship - this is an occurrance that happens a lot with Riverfic in general. It was just this particular fic that made me stop and think about it.)

For some reason, the fic wasn't clicking with me. The romantic parts made me feel a bit uneasy. I wondered why it seemed so "off". Then it hit me.

The author was writing River the way Summer had portrayed her in the series, not the movie. And that made a huge difference. In the series, River was a teenager who seemed to have reverted back to a child-like state. In the movie - I don't know if this was at Joss's direction or if Summer just grew more confidant and mature in her acting choices - River's still a bit crazy, but not with that same child-like innocence. She looks, speaks, and dresses like a woman, albeit a whimsical one.

I actually saw the movie before I watched the series, so this particular pairing makes sense to me - but this fic made the Very Beloved Main Character seem a bit - pedophilic?- which is all kinds of icky and upsetting!

I guess this post is supposed to be a helpful hint or reminder to those authors who bravely write River-fic. She certainly is a very difficult character to write for, but be aware of how you portray her in fiction. It's a big turnoff to read about a character who behaves and thinks like a fourteen year old hopping in the sack with a thirty-year-old man, doesn't matter which one.

I'm just sayin'... It's kinda ... ya know... confusing and it makes me feel dirty for reading it. Does this make any sense? What do you guys think?

ASARIAN

Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EmpireX:

I was reading a Riverfic the other day... it was set post-BDM and River was paired up romantically with a Main Character (I don't want to say who the main character was because I'm not wanting to point fingers at a particular author or 'ship - this is an occurrance that happens a lot with Riverfic in general. It was just this particular fic that made me stop and think about it.)

For some reason, the fic wasn't clicking with me. The romantic parts made me feel a bit uneasy. I wondered why it seemed so "off". Then it hit me.

The author was writing River the way Summer had portrayed her in the series, not the movie. And that made a huge difference. In the series, River was a teenager who seemed to have reverted back to a child-like state. In the movie - I don't know if this was at Joss's direction or if Summer just grew more confidant and mature in her acting choices - River's still a bit crazy, but not with that same child-like innocence. She looks, speaks, and dresses like a woman, albeit a whimsical one.

I actually saw the movie before I watched the series, so this particular pairing makes sense to me - but this fic made the Very Beloved Main Character seem a bit - pedophilic?- which is all kinds of icky and upsetting!

I guess this post is supposed to be a helpful hint or reminder to those authors who bravely write River-fic. She certainly is a very difficult character to write for, but be aware of how you portray her in fiction. It's a big turnoff to read about a character who behaves and thinks like a fourteen year old hopping in the sack with a thirty-year-old man, doesn't matter which one.

I'm just sayin'... It's kinda ... ya know... confusing and it makes me feel dirty for reading it. Does this make any sense? What do you guys think?

I couldn't agree more (though, for this topic, I'd be willing to try).

Icky stuff concerning River is the main reason I don't read fanfic. And though I certainly find her beautiful, I don't think of her in terms of "sexy" or "hot". To me, the whole River persona, and her innocence, and a whole crew recognizing that innocence, and willing to protect it, is a huge part of why I love Firefly so much. All of a sudden reading how River is grappling with any of the crew -- apart from finding it all manner of distasteful to take advantage of a mentally traumatized seventeen year old girl -- really, IMNSHO, violates not just River, but the very fabric of Firefly itself.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

GORBISHUN

Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
I couldn't agree more (though, for this topic, I'd be willing to try).

Icky stuff concerning River is the main reason I don't read fanfic. And though I certainly find her beautiful, I don't think of her in terms of "sexy" or "hot". To me, the whole River persona, and her innocence, and a whole crew recognizing that innocence, and willing to protect it, is a huge part of why I love Firefly so much. All of a sudden reading how River is grappling with any of the crew -- apart from finding it all manner of distasteful to take advantage of a mentally traumatized seventeen year old girl -- really, IMNSHO, violates not just River, but the very fabric of Firefly itself.

I totally agree with that, Asarian. That's exactly how I feel.

_________________________________________
«°-:-°»Also... I can kill you with my brain.«°-:-°»

EMPIREX

Thursday, January 18, 2007 3:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:

I couldn't agree more (though, for this topic, I'd be willing to try).

Icky stuff concerning River is the main reason I don't read fanfic. And though I certainly find her beautiful, I don't think of her in terms of "sexy" or "hot". To me, the whole River persona, and her innocence, and a whole crew recognizing that innocence, and willing to protect it, is a huge part of why I love Firefly so much. All of a sudden reading how River is grappling with any of the crew -- apart from finding it all manner of distasteful to take advantage of a mentally traumatized seventeen year old girl -- really, IMNSHO, violates not just River, but the very fabric of Firefly itself.

Beautifully put, asarian. I kinda skirted around the whole ethical issue but yeah, I think maybe you hit the nail on the head.

Is it ethical to write fic pairing a child-like character with a grown up? I don't know. There's nothing romantic about someone taking sexual advantage of a weaker party (even if the weaker party *appears* to be willing). The same thing for rapefic. A rape or attempted rape should not be used as a catalyst for romance. I'm fairly certain that when a woman has been raped, having any kind of sex would be the last thing on her mind, even if it is with a certain handsome captain/doctor/mercenary. I just think people should be a little more careful about what they write and how they write.

That being said, one fic comes to mind where a River/Jayne fic was actually well done. It was also a post-BDM fic: Kaynara's Bedlam/Bed and Wine Series (which was primarily a Mal/Inara fic).

The key was that Kaynara created a version of River we never got to see, but one that I'm sure River would have become had the series continued for a few years: a lucid, clear-thinking ADULT River, capable of carrying on an adult relationship, not a pixie-ish child that pretty much just giggles and dances around being meddlesome. She also softened up Jayne a bit, made him not so thug-ish and a little more feeling. Being loved by River changes him and he's a better man for it by the end of the story. I've yet to read another Rayne fic on par with that series, but I urge anyone who writes Riverfic to check it out. That's how the pros do it, girls and boys (waves to Kaynara: "I love you! I'm your biggest fan!"). Final thought: Mal and Jayne are not pedophiles. Please don't write them like that. It's not sexy, it's icky and it does a dis-service to the awesome characters that Joss wrote.

Good thread. Does anyone else have an opposing opinion? I'd like to hear what others think on both sides of the issue.

PHOENIXROSE

Thursday, January 18, 2007 4:48 AM

It's interesting because this topic was started not long ago: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=4&t=26514
Not the exact same thing, but talk of River in relationships seems popular lately.
One series I have read that gave me a bit of a soft spot for Mal/River is Serenity Now by IrishCowgirl. It's gotten a bit more angsty lately, and there was a certain chapter where River seemed to be regressing a bit, but that's been taken down. The story is set in such a way that Mal tried to give it a go with Inara but it didn't work out and she left, and River is in her twenties by the time anything happens, so it seemed realistic to me. Also the later chapters explores how badly River could screw things up with her abilities, which was interesting.
Definitely needs to be handled with care is all I can say.

[]

MAL4PREZ

Monday, January 22, 2007 7:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
really, IMNSHO, violates not just River, but the very fabric of Firefly itself.

That's just... perfect. Thank you for saying that. Amen!!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Monday, January 22, 2007 10:28 PM

I agree with most of what Asarian said, and I honestly can't see River grappling with *any* of the crew.

That being said - I'd really like to see River in a relationship. As in River chasing someone she likes. Mostly because I imagine the crew would react very much the same way we react - some horrified, some concerned, some indifferent and one or two cheering her on. I think it could be a really interesting way of exploring just how independent River can be, and just how stable she really is.

I'm hoping to tackle something like this in fic myself... eventually. I'll try a straightforward story or two before I get into something that difficult!

Graphics available at www.desktophippie.com

DANNIISUPERNOVA

Monday, January 22, 2007 10:47 PM

Good point Desktop Hippie. In fact it was quite enlightening.

_____

"You know that's gonna fall off."
-----Nathan Fillion (to me while drunk)

How are ships unlike food?
1. If you try it and don't like it, you don't have to do it again.
2. You can have as much as you want, when you want.
3. Cravings can be very specific.
I mean, hello it's not as if there's 'ship police?

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Monday, January 22, 2007 10:55 PM

Aw, shucks! Thanks!

It's actually more or less because I've had to deal with mental illness myself. Nothing nearly as serious as what River went through (thankfully) but it does give me a certain amount of empathy with her position. She's going to get older, and she's going to get interested in the opposite sex (or maybe the same sex, if some fics are to be believed) and I'd actually really like to see just how Simon and the others would deal with that. Are they ever going to see River as anything more than a tortured child? Is she adult and healthy enough to make those decisions on her own?

Not to mention I'm kinda curious to see what kind of guy she'd go for.

Graphics available at www.desktophippie.com

ROMANCEGURU

Monday, January 22, 2007 11:52 PM

I think it has a lot to do on how we perceive River. As stated in the threads above, some see her as “weak” and therefore unable to make the choice to enter into an adult relationship with a man, especially a much older one. I do not see her as such. It saddens me that just because River is at times disturbed (and we know this less so after the BDM) that she cannot be allowed the same desires as any other girl/woman.

All River wants to be is “normal” and I think by denying her romance, your treating her character in a manner in which she would loathe. We see her wanting to be apart of the family and wanting to form intimate friendships with the crew; love is just the next advancement in her character growth. It is unrealistic to think she should remain stagnate.

I agree that River should not be portrayed in a one-sided manner, child-like/crazy ect (with the exception of a purely comedic piece) because there are many facets of her character. Even in the series, I always got the sense of her pre-academy nature shining through, a deep maturity in the way she carries herself. Balancing the woman she is becoming with the child-like innocence she encompasses is key to any good River-centric fanfiction.

Quote:
“River's still a bit crazy, but not with that same child-like innocence. She looks, speaks, and dresses like a woman, albeit a whimsical one.”

This is a good point, and helps support the supposition that River is maturing. I think in Serenity she does contain a certain ‘sex appeal’ that she did not in the series. Having to deal with the fact that she is a killer also would help balance the fragile River that some portray her as, and to extent along with her genius, age her beyond her years.

All these dynamics help support my comfortableness in pairing River romantically with any main character of her choice regardless of age. Reasonably, the initial inner struggle would be more on the man’s part in observing the apparent age difference. If you can get the characters to connect on a deeper level, age then becomes a trivial matter.

I’m slightly curious as to the fic you read, unless it was one of mine. ;-p

“Hell is coming to breakfast.”

BLUEEYEDBRIGADIER

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 2:37 AM

I really got to agree with RomanceGuru here. River is a very complex and interesting character to both watch and write about, so tackling the objective of writing River accurately becomes a lesson in patience and nuances. At least I think so personally.

When it comes to relationships involving River, I swing Rayne. Now that might make me pro-pedophilia in some people's eyes, but I think that if the author took the time to explore how River and Jayne (or River any other BDH but Simon, frankly) could and would hook up, I think some mighty spectacular work could be done. River's relationship options are somewhat limited by both her role as a member of Serenity's crew and the fact she is both still somewhat mentally unstable and in possession of psychic abilities. That and the fact that River, even before her time at the Academy, was a rather interesting person to interact with due to her extreme intelligence and her related creativity which could be a tad bit off-putting to people just meeting her.

While I support River hooking up with Jayne or another BDH or an OC (the latter two options being dependent on how the author spins River’s entrance into a relationship), I do recognize that River’s only 16 in the series and 17 by the time of the BDM, and do have qualms with someone having her enter into a sexual relationship pre-movie. Friendship or the beginnings of something I can accept with some literary sweetener, but full-fledged sexual relationships? Even I draw a line. But saying that River can’t be relationships with basically anybody is really what does a disservice, since she’s being denied a chance to experience an integral part of human existence because of some third-party declaration.

Two examples I can recall off the top of my head for how to do stories where River enters into a relationship well and effectively are Lattelady6’s Voices and Visions and TamSibling’s A New… trilogy of epic tales. In both cases, the authoresses have taken the time and effort to explore how a post-BDM River who’s saner and emotionally more mature, but still trying to deal with catching up with the stuff from her missing teenage years, reacts to developing feeling towards a much older and “problematic” Jayne Cobb, who’s not exactly come out of the BDM emotional or physically unscathed either.

BEB

Literature has shown us some of humanity's greatest achievements; history, some of our greatest failures -- Alun Lewis

ROMANCEGURU

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 3:25 AM

Quote:
But saying that River can’t be relationships with basically anybody is really what does a disservice, since she’s being denied a chance to experience an integral part of human existence because of some third-party declaration.

Very well put Blueyedbrigader!

I’m also a Rayne aficionado, but that unfortunately can turn into a whole other debate.

I also disagree with this estimation:

Quote:
“The same thing for rapefic. A rape or attempted rape should not be used as a catalyst for romance. I'm fairly certain that when a woman has been raped, having any kind of sex would be the last thing on her mind, even if it is with a certain handsome captain/doctor/mercenary.”

Everyone deals and handles the trama rape differently, and unfortunately, it’s a part of life. I’m in no way saying that it’s romantic, but it is an issue that deserves, as any, to be explored. Obviously, I do not know all the details of the fic in which you are referring, but to say that every woman reacts the same by closing herself off to future sexual relationships is just not true.

A well-written romance involving River is more interesting to read for me than any other character-centric fic’s because of the many different obstacles there is to explore and overcome. To literarily vindicate something that is considered taboo is wherein the beauty and art of fanfic lies.

*************************************************
"Hell is coming to breakfast"

STINKINGROSE

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 3:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:
Quote:
But saying that River can’t be relationships with basically anybody is really what does a disservice, since she’s being denied a chance to experience an integral part of human existence because of some third-party declaration.

Very well put Blueyedbrigader!

I’m also a Rayne aficionado, but that unfortunately can turn into a whole other debate.

I also disagree with this estimation:

Quote:
“The same thing for rapefic. A rape or attempted rape should not be used as a catalyst for romance. I'm fairly certain that when a woman has been raped, having any kind of sex would be the last thing on her mind, even if it is with a certain handsome captain/doctor/mercenary.”

Everyone deals and handles the trama rape differently, and unfortunately, it’s a part of life. I’m in no way saying that it’s romantic, but it is an issue that deserves, as any, to be explored. Obviously, I do not know all the details of the fic in which you are referring, but to say that every woman reacts the same by closing herself off to future sexual relationships is just not true.

A well-written romance involving River is more interesting to read for me than any other character-centric fic’s because of the many different obstacles there is to explore and overcome. To literarily vindicate something that is considered taboo is wherein the beauty and art of fanfic lies.

*************************************************
"Hell is coming to breakfast"

I work in an environment where we do get the occasional rape victim. Sometimes we are the first person they've told about their experience. They are never happy about it.

They haven't necessarily given up on ever finding anyone to ever be happy and have sex with, but it's usually not first on their list of priorities either.

It may take months or years, or they may have a completely unexpected reaction and lash out by becoming extremely aggressive sexually in an effort to demonstrate their own control over their bodies.

I have yet to meet anyone who's been raped that said "gee, if they hadn't done that we might never have gotten together and we're SO HAPPY now!".

Catalyst for romance? I'm thinking not so much.
Sex does not equal love. Rape is about power and hatred.

She wasn't "asking for it". It did not "get her hot". It was not "good for her". Don't ever kid yourself that it was anything other than humiliating, degrading, and traumatic.

No means no. Period.

ROMANCEGURU

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 4:25 AM

Like I said, I don’t know the details of the fic so it really depends on circumstances.

If the person is raped by her supposed suitor, then in no way should a relationship evolve from such places.

If the person is raped by an alternate character, and the victim later forms an attachment to a person he/she feels safe with, then it is plausible. Especially if that character was prominent in helping the victim recover from the trauma.

I only know of one fic that comes close to dealing with “rape”, but I wouldn’t call it that so much as a delicate situation. In this fic, the two in question are put in a situation in where they have to consummate as result of imminent life or death circumstances. The sex involved is mutual, but is not done out of enjoyment and is some what traumatizing for the male especially. This event inspires the two who wouldn’t have originally sought each other out to find solace in one another by opening up and connecting on a deeper level. I think the author dealt with the very difficult subject matter very sensitively, and it made for an interesting perspective on how two people could come together.

*************************************************
“Hell is coming to breakfast.”

SUPERFLUOUS

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 12:24 PM

When all else fails, look to Joss Whedon:

Quote:
You take people, you put them on a journey, you give them peril, you find out who they really are. If there's any kind of fiction better than that, I don't know what it is.

Firefly is a Sci-Fi drama. Joss wanted drama and havoc, andhe wanted to be the one to raise the big issues. Everyone has strong characters in Firefly; River perhaps even more so because she is so dynamic.
And I think ultimately, if there was a season two…or three...or four, there would have been relationships. Powerful, emotive relationships that would echo through the bulkheads. And then Joss would figure out some way to kill it (Wash).

But it would have been interesting to see what would happen to River. Because she is ‘damaged goods’, it would have been destructive and quirky at the same time.
Having said that, River has trouble acting normal in any situation. Yet along bunking up with another crewmember.

Although I don’t agree personally with some stories ethically; I respect the authors rights to write these fanfics, and understand thoroughly the hardships it takes to write one and post it on the Internet.
As long as its done reasonably tasteful and adds to the plot of the fanfic (bad example, River: Oops I dropped the soap…”), and doesn’t go against the Geneva convention. Preferably, River is at legal age too.

____________________________________________________________
Accept that some days you are the pigeon and some days the statue.

JERAXUS

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 2:31 PM

in my work available here

http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=15035
http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=14967
http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=14929

which takes place after the series and is a replacement for the movie i can use aspecs of both

how do you find my characterisation of river?

Play with the best die like the rest

ASARIAN

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 3:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:

I think it has a lot to do on how we perceive River. As stated in the threads above, some see her as “weak” and therefore unable to make the choice to enter into an adult relationship with a man, especially a much older one. I do not see her as such. It saddens me that just because River is at times disturbed (and we know this less so after the BDM) that she cannot be allowed the same desires as any other girl/woman..”

“Vulnerable” and “weak” ain't the same thing. I have yet to see anyone call River “weak” (and no, “the weaker party” don't count; in that context it really just means she's the more vulnerable of the two).

Also, “willing” is a slippery slope. But first things first. In the BDM, lest we forget, River is still a seventeen-year-old. Regardless of the fact that there's some indication that she's on the mend, even if she were fully healed, she's still a barely legal teenager: not something for a thirty-five year old man to fool around with.

No one, to my knowledge, has ever advocated that River, just because she's a mite whimsical in the brainpan, should never be allowed to have relationships. But to be involved with a boyfriend of her own age is quite a stretch from grappling with, say Mal, who's been a father figure for her -- even should she have a “crush” on him and appears every bit “willing”. Heck, I'm a man, and I ain't sly, and even I can readily see how a teenage girl might have a crush on Mal. After all, what's not to love? He ain't weak, he's honorable, a hero, a protector (not to mention, quite a stud to boot). But see, all these glowing qualities in Mal should precisely prevent him from taking advantage of her! And, frankly, I don't think for a moment he would. Like I don't think Mal'd ever go after Kaylee in that fashion, either. In his father role, Mal will ere protect River from overzealous folks being “romantically” interested in her (read: lecherous humps).

Though I have seen and known enough of the 'verse to be well aware that I shall perhaps stand alone in my creed, and that it will be well if I subject myself to no worse charge than that of singularity, I am not therefore deterred from avowing that I regard over-thirty crew members unsuitable suitors for River, and that, as such, far as I'm concerned, the sanctity of River's “untouchability” remains, uhm, untouchable.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

AGENTROUKA

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 4:14 PM

I'm with Asarian on this.

No one says that River is weak. But vulnerable and not up to a full on romantic relationship with a man twice her age? Definitely.

For one, being through significant trauma, being a potentially (and actual) remote-controlled killer, having to sort through the loose floating thoughts of other people... those are things that can kill innocence, but they do not necessarily make a person mature and adult in any way, emotionally or psychologically. And we don't know just exactly how recovered she actually is at the end of the movie. How should the Miranda secret have suddenly cured all the chemical imbalances and surgically damaged bits of her brain?

Then, even if none of those things applied, River is 17. How many 17-year-olds do you know who are ready to have serious sexual and romantic relationships with "actual" adults?

The reason why there's such a thing as age of consent and even a judgment on whether someone is capable of giving consent, that's not because people under a certain age or maturity level don't want sex and love, it's because they are not up to dealing with the potential consequences. The hormonal control, the emotional attachment, the ease of confusing sexual desire and honest affection, not to mention all the aspects of sexual responsibility and reproduction.

River is highly intelligent, but by no means experienced, mature and capable of dealing even with her own life, let alone that of an adult lover. Intelligence ultimately means next to nothing. It's the common sense that makes people fit to live on their own and River isn't overtly blessed with that. Yet. Just like most 17-year-olds, not to mention mentally traumatised ones.

Pairing her with someone who is actually her age, is decidedly less creepy, simply because she would meet a lover on equal terms, learn WITH someone who doesn't have a vast amount of experience to his advantage over her. I can see that as being genuinely sweet.

But River with someone who could be her father? Genuinely shudder-worthy. What kind of man would want to be with someone who would be a malleable student more than an equal partner? Creepy ones.

There are rare exceptions of young women that age being strong and mature enough to handle that, but most aren't, and I don't believe that anything that has been done to River justifies the idea that she is.

ROMANCEGURU

Wednesday, January 24, 2007 12:50 AM

When you refer to someone as the “weaker party”, how can you not be inferring that they are weak?

In speaking in terms of vulnerability, post-BDM River (which the majority of authors and readers feel is the more appropriate setting off stage for a relationship) is regaining her mental competence. To further this point, she has been given the responsibility of co-piloting the ship. If River is being allowed to hold the lives of others in her hands, she most certainly can “pilot” her own life.

We are talking about a fictional world that is very different than the easy civilized life in which we lead. I would imagine that most people grow up fast and develop maturity far faster than the young girls we know today, much in the way that you can't compare the maturity of United States 16 year old to that of a third world 16 year old. That's certainly true of River. There's probably not many mysteries of the universe left for her to discover. While we often use RL experiences as setting off points and or to bring a touch of realism to our work, to hold the Firefly verse to the same societal standards as ours definitely shows a lack of progressiveness in thought and imagination.

Conversely, old-fashion views are intermingled within this society and you should keep in mind that would have included much older men being paired with younger women, so in that respect it would not be seen as “creepy”.

Intelligence and wisdom are two separate things, both of which River has shown a lot of. You can't arbitrarily say that experience changes a person and not apply that to River. Given her experience, she's years older in wisdom than anyone on that ship, Mal and Zoe included.

Painting River as a traumatized victim, a fragile inexperienced flower and mentally incapable of making her own decisions is not doing her character any justice. She is strong, a fighter who has had to overcome much in her life and has succeeded. Her life experience combined with her extreme intellect makes her much more capable of entering a mature relationship then the average teen.

That in itself has nothing to do with whether a certain relationship is good for her or not. Everyday women make mistakes concerning men they choose to be with, and no one ever tries to take away their right to decide who to date next. Commonsense is gained through experience. How can you expect her to gain that sort of knowledge if you deny her the experience of it?

Quote:
"What kind of man would want to be with someone who would be a malleable student more than an equal partner? Creepy ones."

Equality. What relationship is ever equal in terms of experience and emotional readiness? We are here to learn from one another, where one is weak, the other is strong and the compensation allows for a relationship to flourish.

Since I ship Rayne in particular, I will argue that if anyone should be vulnerable in the pairing, it would be Jayne. River can read his mind and know exactly what he's thinking. She's also about 50 times more intelligent than him. Exactly how hard would it be to pull the wool over River's eyes when it comes to Jayne?

It’s not about taking advantage, its about human connection. Love is often blind to the restraints imposed on it. It holds no bounds.

I don’t suppose I can change opposing views on the matter. Just know that there is room for more than one school of thought, especially in the multihued world of fiction.

*************************************************
"Hell is coming to breakfast."

BLUEEYEDBRIGADIER

Wednesday, January 24, 2007 2:50 AM

I think, once you wade deep through all the arguments and thoughts expressed about this subject, one gets to the core of the matter of personal experience. By the end of the BDM, River's still only 17 years old and not really healed. In fact, assuming she will ever be healed completely is being either criminally naive or ignorant about River and where she is in her life.

Logically, River needs to test the waters before realizing that she wants to be with Jayne or Mal or anyone who's older than her by more than a handful of years. A point that has been raised more than once in fanfic where River's in a relationship with someome older (BDH or OC) is that what does River have in common with most teenagers? On top of her pretty much immesurable intellect and remaining psychosis, River's a lot farther behind emotionally than a lot of people in the same age bracket and that any person she chooses to be with in a relationship suddenly becomes a target for the Alliance or the Academy.

I could get all geeky and use my university education to point out that there's tons of evidence of relationships existing between middle-aged men and young women. Now...a good chunk of them happened during less "enlightened" period of human society, but the concept isn't completely foreign.

Really? I understand the points made by both sides here and I support their existence as valid ponderances about a story universe we all have a vested interest in...but I gotta wonder how the hell we got any ground to stand on after only 14 episodes and a feature-length movie that was supposed to be a second season of television lasting about 22 hours? Plus, we seem to forget it's Joss Whedon that created this character...the same man who's gone and done some rather shocking and confusing stuff that has had fans up in arms before. We have no real clue what Joss had in store for River, so I gotta wonder how this debate would go if we had more canon material to work off of?

Literature has shown us some of humanity's greatest achievements; history, some of our greatest failures -- Alun Lewis

JYNNANTONNYX

Wednesday, January 24, 2007 3:31 AM

Well put, RomanceGuru

I, too, am I Rayne shipper but I'm not posting this in defence of my ship - we all have different tastes. I write this to say that River has may be mentally fragile but she has many more years of her life to follow.

I realy cannot believe that Joss would want to keep River in a perpetual state of misery. Many arguments here seem to be that River is too traumatised to enter into a relationship etc etc. We can clearly see at the end of "Serenity" that she is making progress to claiming control over herself and her sanity. I think it's entirely pessimistic to assume that River will let her abuse control her life, and that she will never grow into a fully functioning adult.

--
"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think."

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:27 AM

RomanceGuru,

I'm not saying that River should be denied rmance, love and sex.

I'm saying that trying to experience and learn about these things with someone who is her own age and experience level would be beneficial, even, but doing the same with a man much older would be... not. Harmful, even, not to mention cast a questionable light upon whatever older man she would take up with, considering what exactly they would be getting out of such an arrangement.

Yes, in the past older man married younger women. The reasons for those unions were, however, not exactly feminist. They were biological and often oppressive.

A younger woman can have more children, is more likely to still be a virgin and she's not yet emotionally and mentally independent enough to have developed much will of her own, so she's less trouble to integrate into her new home (as an object that has changed hands of ownership) and take on whatever role her husband wants her to play.

I realize that this isn't the rule in modern time, so called "May-December" romances, but it's what all this human history of relationships between young women and older men that you refer to is kind of based on.

Plus, you keep bringing up the point of her life experience and use that to claim that River is mature and has overcome a lot, but... not really.

She was 14, and due to her vast intelligence probably not overtly socially integrated, hanging out with students above her age, being called "little mouse", which already implies a certain gap in experience and equality level.

Then she spends two years cut off from her family, experimented upon and trained to be a killer, often not even conscious.

Then she's taken out of that prison and spends 8 months going back and forth between periods of lucidity and periods of trance-like confusion. And then she hacks up a roomful of people, gets a big secret knocked loose in her head, physically attacks her brother and ends up hacking up another roomful of people, Reavers this time.

The time she has spent in a society much different from our modern one is 8 months. The time she spent in one very much like ours is 14 years of her life, and even then probably more sheltered than the average teen today. I just don't see where this assumption that she would be more mature than the average teen today would be coming from.

Those aren't experiences that emotionally mature someone. If that were true, everyone who's been through any kind of trauma would be a better person than those who grow up happy and healthy and unbothered, but that's generally not the case. They end up with abusive impulses and Issues themselves. Tend to need help.

I'm not saying that she is a victim 100%, but.. she is a victim among other aspects. One that needs time to catch up to where people her own age should be. Learn how to be independent before settling herself into another kind of dependence.

(Calling he brother a boob and complaining about taking medicine, hell, even beating up a bunch of Reavers.. that has nothing to do with growing up.)

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, January 24, 2007 4:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:
To further this point, she has been given the responsibility of co-piloting the ship. If River is being allowed to hold the lives of others in her hands, she most certainly can “pilot” her own life.

Sooo not true! A technical skill does not mean anything in terms of human relationships! Piloting a ship and communicating with another human being have nothing to do with eachother!

Quote:

Conversely, old-fashion views are intermingled within this society and you should keep in mind that would have included much older men being paired with younger women, so in that respect it would not be seen as “creepy”.

Just because it still happens on rim planets doesn't make it less creepy... The point is often made that the backward things happening on the rim worlds are not supported by our intrepid crew. ie burning witches, shipping slaves... Child brides and man/girl love would fall in this category as well, imho.

Quote:
You can't arbitrarily say that experience changes a person and not apply that to River. Given her experience, she's years older in wisdom than anyone on that ship, Mal and Zoe included.

I'm with AR here - River has shown lots of smarts but very little wisdom, and her experiences have not involved any kind of healthy human contact. They have done nothing to teach her social skills!

Quote:
How can you expect her to gain that sort of knowledge if you deny her the experience of it?

No one's denying her the right to get into a relationship! I think we're all in agreement that she needs to - and would very much want to!

I'm not even arguing that she could NEVER get involved with Jayne. But she would need a great of time to heal, grow up, and learn. Other relationships with people her own age would give her that opportunity.

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

ROMANCEGURU

Wednesday, January 24, 2007 9:33 PM

I’m not saying that River will suddenly be ok and skipping around with her male partner as if everything is normal. There will be obstacles, relapses and part of the intrigue as a writer/reader is to see how both River and the man of her choosing will overcome and or come to terms with these issues.

No matter how traumatized or broken you believe River to be, whomever chooses to love her in spite of this is not wrong, but courageous.

Must I reiterate the point that most stories I’ve read or written, has been set post-BDM to further allow River healing time.

Quote:
“Plus, you keep bringing up the point of her life experience and use that to claim that River is mature and has overcome a lot, but... not really.”

You don’t think she remembers all the pain and torture that she was put through at the academy? “She feels everything, how could she not.” River does deal with and overcome tremendous amounts of physical, emotional, psychological torture, along with her intellect and worldly insight she is a paradox of mature understanding and at times, acts younger then she really is. Um….Whom else on the ship tends to act emotionally immature…can’t put my finger on it, oh, right, Jayne!

Both are killers, smart in their own way but tend to regress into a child like state or attitude. Frankly, I think this is true of most adults, crazy or otherwise. Get past the age hang up and look at the parallels that might actually connect two human beings.

Do you really think a normal teenage boy could begin to understand the issues and complexities of River Tam? Be able to handle what being in a relationship with her might entail? I would place my bet that someone who knows Rivers problems, lives with her day in and out would be better equipped for the job.

You are making this into a black and white issue when there are many gray areas to explore. Life and love are not so simple. Many of these arguments are circular, and while I understand some of the points being made, I believe there should be more room left for interpretation between the lines.

*************************************************
“Hell is coming to breakfast.”

ASARIAN

Wednesday, January 24, 2007 11:37 PM

I'm with AgentRouka on this.

Just because River can run a ship, don't necessarily mean she's ready to be IN one.

Her life experience?? Other than burning years, I'd say River has virtually none. She led a very sheltered life on Osiris, with a clearly overbearing father, who no doubt kept real life all but totally outside that fancy laser-fence of his. Then, only fourteen, she went to the Academy, where she was subjected to men with tortures too unseemly to speak on. And stayed there until her brother rescued her and brought her onboard Serenity. I reckon that if River were to explore romance, she'd pretty much start off at the point where her life got brutally interrupted: at the stunned emotional level of a fourteen-year-old.

Also, development ain't an either/or thing. River may be light-years ahead on other teens, intellectually. Yet, "Clearly some aptitude for..." was clearly not spoken of her social skills.

Sure, there have always been old men and young teenage girls, and the former lusting after the latter. And, all throughout history, men have raped and pillaged. And waged war. I mean, on some planets; but only pretty bad ones. I guess that's a commentary on us. Don't make us beholden to follow in these footsteps, of course. Literature has shown us some of humanity's greatest achievements; history, some of our greatest failures. :)

Present company excluded, it's my estimation that the loudest advocates of teenage sex are usually people interested not so much in the teen's right to their own sexuality, as much as in their "right" to the teen's sexuality. So, when a thirty-five-year-old crew member is suddenly romantically interested in River, and goes on about how much River is capable of making her own decisions and such, I figure I gotta be asking myself some fairly fundamental questions about the nature of that interest.

I applaud the idea of River getting a boyfriend one day: a peer with whom she could take small steps, at a mutually set pace. Who knows, maybe someone equally messed up? (I can already hear her say: "You're my kinda crazy.") Like AgentRouka said, could be genuinely sweet. But Jayne? Possibly you're not recalling some of his previous words: "It's a girl. Cute, too, but I don't think she's all there. 'Course, not all of her has to be." Definitely shudder-worthy.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

ROMANCEGURU

Thursday, January 25, 2007 12:19 AM

Quote:
“Just because River can run a ship, don't necessarily mean she's ready to be IN one.”

No, but the argument gives evidence of River’s capability (which the major part of the dispute). Being giving the HUGE responsibly of manning the lives of others, I would think this to be in support of her competency as a person, emotionally and mentally.

Quote:
“Her life experience?”

Her experience many not have been atypical, then neither is that the life they lead. Everyone draws from their own subjections. Just because her life wasn’t as varied as say Mal’s, doesn’t mean she can’t understand what a life of that sort may have been like. She is not in the dark, she has the ability to feel and see what others feel. That combined with her intellect is a close substitute for whatever understanding you all think she may lack.

Quote:
“Present company excluded, it's my estimation that the loudest advocates of teenage sex are usually people interested not so much in the teen's right to their own sexuality, as much as in their "right" to the teen's sexuality. So, when a thirty-five-year-old crew member is suddenly romantically interested in River, and goes on about how much River is capable of making her own decisions and such, I figure I gotta be asking myself some fairly fundamental questions about the nature of that interest.”

Excluded or not, your generalizing the mind-set Rayneship authors have. This is laugh worthy, really. Most writers of fan-fiction are mature adults who have the ability to see things more than one-sidedly. You don’t throw a fiction together without tirelessly exploring the reasons for the how and the why. You're really naïve if you think an 18yr or 19yr old, (again the age most authors use) is not going to be interested in exploring her sexuality.

Quote:
“But Jayne? Possibly you're not recalling some of his previous words: "It's a girl. Cute, too, but I don't think she's all there. 'Course, not all of her has to be." Definitely shudder-worthy.”

Um, when was that statement made? In the pilot episode. I think Jayne, more so then anyone on the ship has had the most character growth by the end of Serenity. Does he have more growing to do? Most definitely. But at the and of the BDM he is in a much better place to be considered worthy of River.

Quote:
“Sure, there have always been old men and young teenage girls, and the former lusting after the latter. And, all throughout history, men have raped and pillaged. And waged war. I mean, on some planets; but only pretty bad ones. I guess that's a commentary on us. Don't make us beholden to follow in these footsteps, of course. Literature has shown us some of humanity's greatest achievements; history, some of our greatest failures.”

Wow. That is one powerful comparison. Cannot even begin to see how that is relevant.

*************************************************
“Hell is coming to breakfast.”

ASARIAN

Thursday, January 25, 2007 1:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:

Quote:
“Present company excluded, it's my estimation that the loudest advocates of teenage sex are usually people interested not so much in the teen's right to their own sexuality, as much as in their "right" to the teen's sexuality. So, when a thirty-five-year-old crew member is suddenly romantically interested in River, and goes on about how much River is capable of making her own decisions and such, I figure I gotta be asking myself some fairly fundamental questions about the nature of that interest.”

Excluded or not, your generalizing the mind-set Rayneship authors have. This is laugh worthy, really. Most writers of fan-fiction are mature adults who have the ability to see things more than one-sidedly. You don’t throw a fiction together without tirelessly exploring the reasons for the how in the why. Your really naïve if you think an 18yr or 19yr old, (again the age most authors use) is not going to be interested in exploring her sexuality.

Excluded really means precisely that: I have no judgement about Rayneship authors, nor about their motives; nary a one, let alone in general terms. I'm just saying that if a thirty-five year old man wants to date a teenage girl, that you can bet I will be asking myself some serious questions as to why. And that I will be highly suspicious, and assume he's more into it for himself than for her. I mean, what parents would not cringe if, one day, a thirty-five-year-old man rang the doorbell, asking to date their teenage daughter?

Also, the issue is not whether or not an 18yr or 19yr old is going to be interested in exploring her sexuality, but whether it's appropriate for her to do that with a man twice her age. Especially if that girl happens to be severely mentally traumatized, or, at most, is only very recently beginning to recover from the ordeal.

Quote:

Quote:
“But Jayne? Possibly you're not recalling some of his previous words: "It's a girl. Cute, too, but I don't think she's all there. 'Course, not all of her has to be." Definitely shudder-worthy.”

Um, when was that statement made? In the pilot episode. I think Jayne, more so then anyone on the ship has had the most character growth by the end of Serenity. Does he have more growing to do? Most definitely. But at the and of the BDM he is in a much better place to be considered worthy of River.

I think, at the end of the BDM, Jayne, at best, tolerates the Tams' presence. Don't change the matter none that I think he's too old for River.

Quote:

Quote:
“Sure, there have always been old men and young teenage girls, and the former lusting after the latter. And, all throughout history, men have raped and pillaged. And waged war. I mean, on some planets; but only pretty bad ones. I guess that's a commentary on us. Don't make us beholden to follow in these footsteps, of course. Literature has shown us some of humanity's greatest achievements; history, some of our greatest failures.”

Wow. That is one powerful comparison. Cannot even begin to see how that is relevant.

It was brought forth that bad things are not without precedent, and that history is replete with examples of older men and younger girls. To which I added my two coppers, that bad things done in history, used as justification for current or future practices, really make for lousy moral guidelines.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

ROMANCEGURU

Thursday, January 25, 2007 1:20 AM

Quote:
“I'm just saying that if a thirty-five year old man wants to date a teenage girl, that you can bet I will be asking myself some serious questions as to why. And that I will be highly suspcious, and assume he's more into it for himself than for her.”

Thank god this is fiction, set in an alternate universe, and involves some rather unique players and circumstances.

Quote:
I think, at the end of the BDM, Jayne, at best, tolerates the Tams' presence. Don't change the matter none that I think he's too old for River.

Tolerance is a start. You are free to feel that way, just don’t expect everyone else to.

Quote:
It was brought forth that bad things are not without precedent, and that history is replete with examples of older men and younger girls. To which I added my two coppers, that bad things done in history, used as justification for current or future practices, really make for lousy moral guidelines.

Comparing the relationship between an older man and a younger woman is not relatable to raping and pillaging no matter how you word it.

Have you ever read the novel Jane Eyre? It’s a lovely and revered romantic classic about an 18 year old girl and a middle aged man. There are also positive and beautiful examples through out history supporting such relationships, you just have to open your eyes.

*************************************************
“Hell is coming to breakfast”

ASARIAN

Thursday, January 25, 2007 2:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:

Quote:
It was brought forth that bad things are not without precedent, and that history is replete with examples of older men with younger girls. To which I added my two coppers, that bad things done in history, used as justification for current or future practices, really make for lousy moral guidelines.

Comparing the relationship between an older man and a younger woman is not relatable to raping and pillaging no matter how you word it.

And I didn't say so, either. I said that pointing to history, to find moral justification in older men dating much younger women, is essentially void, as history is full of very bad things, none of which are repeatworthy, or justifiable, merely because they happened before. By that token, I argued, we might as well start to pillage and rape again, because that too has happened before.

Quote:

Have you ever read the novel Jane Eyre? It’s a lovely and revered romantic classic about an 18 year old girl and a middle aged man. There are also positive and beautiful examples through out history supporting such relationships, you just have to open your eyes.

As for Jane Eyre, Jane wasn't at the Academy; and Rochester ain't no Jayne. :)

Actually, now that you mention it, Charlotte Bronte modelled large portions of the story of Jane Eyre after her own life. Studying French, in the early 1840's, she fell in love with her much older Professor. Jane and Rochester overcome many similar obstacles that Charlotte found on her path, What wasn't in the book, though, but actually did happen to Charlotte, was the fact that, in real life, the relationship between her and the Professor was a complete failure, and that she was left with a broken heart, whereas Jane found her love and all was well.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

ARCADIA

Thursday, January 25, 2007 2:17 AM

I like Jane Eyre as much as the next person -- it is quite an enjoyable book -- but I don't think it applies here at all. Marriages of young women to older men where common in that period, and why? Because marriage was more of a bussiness for women than a romantic persuit. It was all about getting bang for your buck -- a man who you don't mind too much, and maybe even enjoy if you're lucky, in exchange for a lifetime of being taken care of. If you don't think that reality influenced the feelings of women (and women characters) of that time, then you might want to think about it again. If Jane Eyre was born in the later 20th century I don't think she would have been interested in Rochester. She was smart and resourseful and would have gotten a scholarship and gone to college and lived her life indepentently. She wouldn't need him like she does as a women in the 1800s, and probably wouldn't want him because she'd have the opportunity to be with anyone.

Plus, I really don't see how Jane Eyre and River are comparable. Eyre's experiences were sad and somewhat traumatic, but they forced her into independence. River has never been capable of independence, and quite possibly never will be.

If you can't tell already, I am with AR and Asarian on this debate.

Earlier, you asked "what does River have in common with other teenagers?" My answer is that she has a whole, whole lot in common with other teenagers. Even with all her life experience, she is still relatively undiscovered. And by that I mean, she has not explored her personality -- her interests, her hobbies -- for a long time. How long has it been since she's read a book, learned a new dance? She's been busy trying to be not crazy. That doesn't leave much time for the finer points of self-discovery. In this area, she is behind most teens her age and way behind every emotionally mature adult, such as, say, Mal and even Jayne.

She hasn't had time to explore her body. Think about it. Most girls get their periods (and the beginnings of the sexual urges that come with it) between twelve and fourteen (though as early as nine and as late as fifteen). Despite having all the usual hormones, most girls twelve to sixteen don't know what to do with their bodies. They don't know where their... err... pleasure centers are. So, there is another thing, and other reason why it might be more comfortable for River to be with a younger partner. I'm not saying she needs to be with a virgin, but I will say there is a certain comfort in knowing your partner is not too far ahead of you. Sex is complicated. There is all this preassure and expectations... a younger, less experienced partner wouldn't have as many expectations, which can be a comfort.

And River... People keep talking about what she has overcome. As far as I am concerned, she has not really overcome anything. She survived. She lived through hell, and she lived through the confusion that followed, the insanity. Now, it looks like she has gained some clarity. What does that mean? It means it will get even harder. Now, she can go through the horrible process of processing what happened to her. She's never really dealt with what happened to her. How could she? She's had no control over her emotions or her mind, of any part of her life. She has it now, and that is going to be traumatic in its own way. Its a good step in the long run, but it is still going to be a hard adjustment.

Traumas can make people stronger. They can also make people bitter, depressed, emotionally distant, angry, and generally not likeable. They can lead to good people making bad choices out of desperation, confusion, rage... River has a sweetness to her. We see that. But it doesn't mean that she's going to get through all this okay. She still has a lot of healing and growing up to do.

Arcadia (aka Greyfable and/or Katie)
www.stillflying.net -- picking up Firefly were Joss left off. We will hold 'til he gets back.

ASARIAN

Thursday, January 25, 2007 3:33 AM

Whoa! Good post! :)

Quote:
Originally posted by Arcadia:

I like Jane Eyre as much as the next person -- it is quite an enjoyable book -- but I don't think it applies here at all. Marriages of young women to older men where common in that period, and why? Because marriage was more of a bussiness for women than a romantic persuit. It was all about getting bang for your buck -- a man who you don't mind too much, and maybe even enjoy if you're lucky, in exchange for a lifetime of being taken care of. If you don't think that reality influenced the feelings of women (and women characters) of that time, then you might want to think about it again. If Jane Eyre was born in the later 20th century I don't think she would have been interested in Rochester. She was smart and resourseful and would have gotten a scholarship and gone to college and lived her life indepentently. She wouldn't need him like she does as a women in the 1800s, and probably wouldn't want him because she'd have the opportunity to be with anyone.

I'm glad you brough this up, because it's so very true. Reminds me of my dad, who always teases my mom, saying all of Jane Austen's books are about "Finding a man." Yet a bare necessity it was. Life in those days, as an old spinster, was quite unpleasant. With no income to your name, and excluded from being able to inherit (!), life for an unmarried woman, unless you were independently wealthy, was hard, to say the least. Essentially you had to rely on the good will of brothers or some such, who'd let you live in with them, if you were so lucky.

Really, if you think about it, that whole era ain't exactly a poster-child for equality between the sexes. In fact, it was quite oppressive in nature, however charitable it may have been dressed up. The lie of it, as Mal would say.

Quote:

And River... People keep talking about what she has overcome. As far as I am concerned, she has not really overcome anything. She survived. She lived through hell, and she lived through the confusion that followed, the insanity. Now, it looks like she has gained some clarity. What does that mean? It means it will get even harder. Now, she can go through the horrible process of processing what happened to her. She's never really dealt with what happened to her. How could she? She's had no control over her emotions or her mind, of any part of her life. She has it now, and that is going to be traumatic in its own way. Its a good step in the long run, but it is still going to be a hard adjustment.

Excellent points, too.

In many ways, River's still at the most basic survival level: trying to function like a girl. And, as you so astutely pointed out, especially now that's she been able to unburden the Miranda secret, and the immediate edge is off, the real process of dealing with what happened to her has yet to unfold. At times she'll have to deal with anger, or the sadness over her losses. Or reliving the feeling of being powerless to do much more than undergo the abuses. And the flashbacks. And she'll have to cope with all of this sans her amygdela, unable to stop the occasional torrent of emotion. Contradictory as it may sound, the more normal she becomes, the harder things will be for her in the beginning.

And you're right, we have to be open to the real possibility that River may never fully recover. And that's not painting her as weak, but simply an acknowlegement of the fact that they hurt her pretty badly. And some things, like stripping her amygdela, that stuff don't grow back, either.

River has a sweetness to her, most assuredly. And I think she'll be able to find someone. But, far as I'm concerned, Jayne can go play with his rainstick. And Mal, I know, wouldn't even try anything with her.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

ROMANCEGURU

Thursday, January 25, 2007 4:13 AM

“I’m alright. I’m alright.” River is given very few lines throughout the series and movie, so I think these final lines in the BDM are quite poignant and telling. The give me the hope that she is indeed on the road to recovery. You my not see it as so, but I’ll take it as hint from the man himself.

Yes, *sarcastically* Jane fell in love with Mr. Rochester solely because she had no other options to her. You are aware that the novel is a romance? If you want to argue that point, then it is comparable. River doesn’t have very many options to her and neither does Jayne. Proximity alone can be a dangerous thing.

As easily as you pointed out the lack of parallels between the two stories, there are equally as many in support. The stories do not mirror each other completely in circumstances, but neither do our lives and societal standards to a piece of fiction set 500 years in the future.

Quote:
“And by that I mean, she has not explored her personality -- her interests, her hobbies -- for a long time. How long has it been since she's read a book, learned a new dance?”

She’s doing these things throughout the series!

A teen boy could not handle all that would entail being involved with a psychic genius killer. You’re forgetting River’s dark side, which you like it or not is now apart of who she is. I imagine killing a man with your bare hands will make you grow up really fast. Someone like Jayne could understand what it’s like living with that on your conscious.

Don’t worry, I’m sure River knows where her pleasure center is. If not, Jayne can help her find it. : )

ETA: I’m done. I'm wasting time when I could be writing another chapter of pervery fanfiction. Let’s just agree to disagree. Just know us shippers have our reasons for certain pairings that delve beyond the apparent, like it or not.

*************************************************
“Hell is coming to breakfast.”

BLUEEYEDBRIGADIER

Thursday, January 25, 2007 4:32 AM

Wow...this thread's started moving away from the main topic just a tad

I get the feeling this subject is a hidden tiger pit for Browncoats, since we got supporters of River not being quite capable or ready for exploring who she is as a person (which has a lot of valid points, mind you) verbally skirmishing with people like myself who seem to view River as someone with decent stability and conscious control over herself (which is subjective, I admit).

Like I iterated before, the issue over our differing interpretations is limited canonical source material mixing with personal beliefs and perspectives. And that's good...we're getting honest and hopefully well-presented arguments from both sides. But this topic is one hell of a sandbox that we are mighty interested in exploring...but it ain't ours. It may seem like a weak or usless ponderance, but I gotta wonder how each camp would have handled seeing stories where River started wanting to get all kinds of freaky with an older man.

In two previous series, Joss made some big decisions concerning creating couples where there was some serious age and experience differences between the partners and we got to see how those generally fell apart or stayed strong, depending on the match-up. Also, since Joss was using the American expansion westward and the Reconstruction period after the US Civil War as an inspiration point, it's not completely presumptious to think - at least I personally feel this - that Our Fearful Leader & co. could have deigned to explore ideas like River actually attempting to start something with Mal or Jayne out of a perceived notion of sameness for one reason or another. No assertion that it would have worked or lasted, but it's a possibility all the same.

River's got a long road full of paths to explore before she can really know who she is. That's not really needing debate, as assuming the Miranda Wave fixed everything is painfully naive. What I quibble over is how many teenagers of either gender have the maturity or je ne sais quoi to be able to handle something like River rightly struggling to deal with her imposed brain damage and abilities, on top of the memories and feelings relating to what both the Academy and River herself did.

BEB

Literature has shown us some of humanity's greatest achievements; history, some of our greatest failures -- Alun Lewis

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, January 25, 2007 12:08 PM

My main point of disagreement with RomanceGuru is, I think, the fact that her/his argument seems to be that high intelligence and the ability to read minds make up for the lack of life experience. That these things, somehow, imply an emotional maturity and self-awareness gained by theoretical and rational hypotheses.

I profoundly disagree with that. There is a reason it's called life experience. You have to go through certain things, know what they feel/taste/smell like and the way you react to those things. This is what enables you to make better choices, understand yourself and, very importantly, understand other people and their own experiences.

Experience can never be predicted or intuited and even if she gleaned those things from other people's memories, it would not be her own experience. It would, essentially, be a completely irrelevant object of comparison - because she doesn't have anything to compare it to.

Experience is the deciding factor, not the ability to imagine or theorize or make scientific guesses.

River doesn't have any life experience, unless you make it a competition in torture, because she has some life experience in that, but that doesn't translate to other areas in life.

Quite frankly, any more or less emotionally developed man in his mid-thirties should be bored trying to have an actual romantic (not just sexual) relationship with River, because she quite simply would be making all those silly first-time mistakes, have all those first-time illusions that more experienced people have had, grown beyond and dismissed, have come to terms with. That gap would automatically create a mentor/student dynamic, superiority and inferiority, authority and deference. Quite simply, unhealthy and unattractive to anyone not into control-play.

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, January 25, 2007 4:11 PM

I've been having thoughts about something Asarian got into waaaay back:

Quote:
All of a sudden reading how River is grappling with any of the crew -- apart from finding it all manner of distasteful to take advantage of a mentally traumatized seventeen year old girl -- really, IMNSHO, violates not just River, but the very fabric of Firefly itself.

I must go further with this idea of the fabric of Firefly, because it's such a strong idea.

As I see it, the main story to Firefly/Serenity is Mal's ongoing conflict with the Alliance. River's character serves as the push to get him back into that battle. She's an innocent that got trampled by the Alliance, and as such she brings out a protective instinct in the crew. OK, not in Jayne, but certainly in Mal. Because he chooses to protect her, and not to abandon her, she gets them all to Miranda. She's like the drop that starts the flood or something like that.

Her role is to return idealism and self-sacrifice to a hardened and self-serving crew, and her youth and inexperience are absolutely necessary for that. The fact that she's half fighting machine just heightens the tragedy of what the Alliance has done to her, because River herself is not a killer. The part of her they created and control through subconscious triggers is the killer. In the movie, she finds a way to reach that part of herself, but she does it to save the people she loves. She's still very much an innocent - and even more tragic because she's accepted this dark part of herself that she abhors, sacrificing some of her innocence to save her brother.

So... having River just jump into bed with Mal or Jayne (oh yes, there are those fics where it's that simple. "I'm 18 now, I'm going to bed who I want!" *shudder*) completely goes against what Joss has so carefully set up. It's not something I can stomach.

I'm not saying that people can't write what they choose, and hey - River and Jayne are both played by beautiful actors. Sure, there's going to be readers who like smut about them, and there's an audience for that.

But if anyone is trying to write drama about the complexity of these characters and their verse - you have to take into account River's lack of life experience... if you don't, it sells her, and this story, and the entire `verse that we love short.

IMNSHO.

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

REGINAROADIE

Thursday, January 25, 2007 4:41 PM

Wanted to sit on this for a while before chipping in my two cents. Decided to see if anyone was saying the same stuff I was thinking.

In regard to River herself as a character, I actually didn't find her that interesting of a character in the show. For the most part with FIREFLY and a little bit of SERENITY, she doesn't really do anything. All she does is look forlonging, stand in a corner and babble and cry. Pretty one note, IMHO. And it's a bit of a problem where you see everyone making a big deal over her and have these two sides fighting over her, and she doesn't even get a say in all this. No one asks her "What do you want to do." When people make decisions for a character and the character just goes along with it, it makes for a pretty bland character.

That being said, River started to become interesting when she finally DOES something. When she guns down Niska's men in "War Stories" or plays mindgames with Early in "Objects in Space" or goes to get the medical bag from the Reavers in SERENITY. That's when she becomes an actual character.

One of the more conscious things I've done in my stories is to actually have River make decisions for herself. She decides to give the whole rock music thing another try, and ends up discovering her salvation. When Simon and Gabriel fight over her, she basically goes "Fuck this" and leaves on her own valition, which has a domino effect in that 24 horus later, she's becoming a rock goddess to a disenfranchised generation. And very soon, when I finally get down and write the concert itself and bridge the stuff I've already written, she'll make the biggest decision of her life on her own.

But to answer your question, no I don't think she should shack up with Mal or Jayne. I prefer fanfics where she's interested in a guy of her own age, which is partially why I created Johnny. To have sort of a parallel male version of River so that they would fit with each other.

**************************************************
"Have you ever fired two guns whilst jumping through the air?"
"No."
"Have you ever fired ONE gun whilst jumping through the air?"

DEEPGIRL187

Thursday, January 25, 2007 5:28 PM

Now mind you, I wasn't on fan-sites at the time, but my question is this:

Where were the people defending said character's virtue (for lack of a better term), when a certain sixteen-year-old slayer and a 240-year-old vampire were shacking up?

Now I know people are going to object and say that it's a completely different situation, but one of the things this arguement seems to be about is life experience and maturity. Not many teenagers have those traits. Not to mention that if you compare the two characters, both are girls that are in extraordinary circumstances, and both have no one they can really go to their own age that would understand what they're going through.

If we're going to argue overly long about this, then we can't exactly pretend that it hasn't happened before in a Joss-helmed series. Joss found a way to deal with it then, and I think that he could have found a way to do it again, even with the new set of circumstances. And more to the point, fan fiction is a great way to explore that particular idea.

*************************************************

"I suppose if we couldn't laugh at things that don't make sense, we couldn't react to a lot of life."

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, January 25, 2007 6:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Now mind you, I wasn't on fan-sites at the time, but my question is this:

Where were the people defending said character's virtue (for lack of a better term), when a certain sixteen-year-old slayer and a 240-year-old vampire were shacking up?

To be honest, I DO find Angel/Buffy creepy, as well.

I suspect the point there was supposed to be that his own emotional maturity was stunted or some such, but... I can neither stand Buffy's character nor much of the series, so the "Joss did it in another show, so it has to be right" argument largely flies past me with no impact at all.

River is not Buffy. They have similar qualities (mainly, teenaged fighting machines), but they are not identical in any way shape or form.

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, January 25, 2007 6:23 PM

There are such fundamental differences... Buffy was very much forced to grow up early - it's a recurring theme through the series. She's on her own. River, on the other hand, is NOT a leader. She's sheltered and cared for, largely unable to make her own decisions. (though that will certainly change after the movie, I believe.)

Also, when Angel first showed up in Season 1 of Buffy, he looked like a teenager himself, which served to soften the creepy factor.

Hey - and note what happened when Buffy and Angel had sex. Joss uses monster stories to draw parallels to real life issues - she has sex with this mysterious, slightly dangerous (in a sexy way) older man and he completely changes and turns evil. This is an exaggerated take on a situation many young girls/women get into when they jump into a relationship before they're ready, and that's what makes much of Buffy season 2 so poignant - we identify with her position.

I am sooo side-tracked right now. Sorry. Work avoidance.

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

ROMANCEGURU

Thursday, January 25, 2007 9:34 PM

Most of the characters on the show are a contradiction to morality.

Please do not hold them to your rigorous ideals. There is vast room for interpretation in the verse.

*************************************************
“Hell is coming to breakfast.”

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Thursday, January 25, 2007 9:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Now mind you, I wasn't on fan-sites at the time, but my question is this:

Where were the people defending said character's virtue (for lack of a better term), when a certain sixteen-year-old slayer and a 240-year-old vampire were shacking up?

To be honest, I DO find Angel/Buffy creepy, as well.

*raises a hand* Me too. I found it a bit creepifying too.

I guess it's natural that neither of them would wait 'till Buffy was older since there was very little chance she was ever going to be older, but it was still a pretty creepy relationship. That's pretty much the reason Angel called it off. Buffy was extremely mature for her age - she had to be - but when Angel saw 'Angel and Buffy 4 ever!' written on her copybook he realised that she was still a child, and he wasn't. It just took that and Joyce's words to bring it home to him.

Graphics available at www.desktophippie.com

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, January 25, 2007 9:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:
Most of the characters on the show are a contradiction to morality.

Please do not hold them to your rigorous ideals. There is vast room for interpretation in the verse.

*************************************************
“Hell is coming to breakfast.”

I think the very fact that many characters make morally questionable choices is supposed to make the intelligent viewer question those choices. It's a commentary on humanity, not a free pass for murder, theft and violence.

When they cross lines, we are supposed to judge them.

DEEPGIRL187

Thursday, January 25, 2007 10:14 PM

I guess where I'm coming from here, is that before completely writing off the idea of River in a relationship with someone older (and it doesn't have to be crew), consider the fact that it can be done in an intelligent, thought-provoking manner.

Maybe it's just my perception of the posts I've read, but it seems as if some are completely opposed to the idea of River ever have control over her life and the choices she makes. Yes, River will always have problems. Yes, it will be hard for her to adjust socially. But that's not to say that she can't adjust at all. Viewers would have lost interest if River was treated like a child for the duration of the series. I think that if the series continued, we would have seen River making more choices about her life (regarding a relationship or not), and I think that it's understandable that people would want to explore that in fan fiction.

*************************************************

"I suppose if we couldn't laugh at things that don't make sense, we couldn't react to a lot of life."

ROMANCEGURU

Thursday, January 25, 2007 10:55 PM

Quote:
I think the very fact that many characters make morally questionable choices is supposed to make the intelligent viewer question those choices. It's a commentary on humanity, not a free pass for murder, theft and violence.

When they cross lines, we are supposed to judge them.

Judge them at will, but don’t expect the characters to strictly follow YOUR moral views. Keep in mind that because it’s Joss’s ‘verse he might possibly explore this avenue as well as many others. A Jayne/River relationship could be written as a beautiful thing or written to be fatality doomed from the start, depending on the individual premise of the fiction.

Quote:
I guess where I'm coming from here, is that before completely writing off the idea of River in a relationship with someone older (and it doesn't have to be crew), consider the fact that it can be done in an intelligent, thought-provoking manner.

Maybe it's just my perception of the posts I've read, but it seems as if some are completely opposed to the idea of River ever have control over her life and the choices she makes. Yes, River will always have problems. Yes, it will be hard for her to adjust socially. But that's not to say that she can't adjust at all. Viewers would have lost interest if River was treated like a child for the duration of the series. I think that if the series continued, we would have seen River making more choices about her life (regarding a relationship or not), and I think that it's understandable that people would want to explore that in fan fiction.

Thank you Deepgirl187, my sentiments exactly!

*************************************************
“Hell is coming to Breakfast.”

ARCADIA

Thursday, January 25, 2007 11:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Maybe it's just my perception of the posts I've read, but it seems as if some are completely opposed to the idea of River ever have control over her life and the choices she makes.

For fear this comment was inspired by one of my posts -- which, I admit, was not my best written effort ever -- I just wanted to say I have no problem with the idea of River taking more control over her self/choices/body/life, etc. In fact, quite contrarily, I think it would be an interesting and exciting journey for her. I just wanted to somewhat discredit the "River has overcome so much and therefore is more mature and wise than anyone" argument, because I think it is crap.

Also, I now feel the need to add that while I don't feel River could have a healthy relationship with an older man given where she is mentally and emotionally at the end of the BDM, and unhealthy one is quite possible. But, since I think we are arguing over the idea of a healthy ronance here, I did not say so above.

No matter what River's first romance is or who it is with, it will undoubtably be flawed and potentially just as bad as it is good. Because that's how most relationships are, first or otherwise. Also, relationships happen because, well, they happen, regardless of whether you or ready or the timing is ideal and all that. River, I think, is still some time away from being a capable, independent person who would be able to handle a romantic relationship with the good sense and maturity one needs to make a relationship really last. That doesn't mean she's not going to get into relationships anyway! And that they won't turn out mostly all right.

But, as I said above, it seems to me we are mainly arguing about whether she would have a stable, lasting relationship with Jayne (or Mal, but mostly Jayne) which... no, and especially not at this point. I guess any relationship is possible under the right circumstances. Time changes lots of things. But as of immediate post-BDM era, those relationships just don't seem possible to me, and I have yet to read a fic (and, honestly, I generally avoid River/Jayne/Mal fic, but sometimes you can't avoid it because it is part of a large fic) that has pulled any of these relationships off realisticly or well.

Arcadia (aka Greyfable and/or Katie)
www.stillflying.net -- picking up Firefly were Joss left off. We will hold 'til he gets back.

STINKINGROSE

Friday, January 26, 2007 12:00 AM

River/Jayne/Mal

Now there's one I'm not sure I could bring myself to read, but somebody's bound to try it.

Why oh why is there no emoticon for shudder?

DEEPGIRL187

Friday, January 26, 2007 12:03 AM

You know, now that I think about it, we're all looking at this from the wrong perspective. I mean, for heaven's sake, it's Joss we're talking about. If the series had continued, no one would have been happy. He would have found a way for everyone's relationship to be ruined...course, this wouldn't be looking at things from the perspective of fan fiction. What was the original topic of this thread again?

*************************************************

"I suppose if we couldn't laugh at things that don't make sense, we couldn't react to a lot of life."

ROMANCEGURU

Friday, January 26, 2007 12:03 AM

Well, at least you're open to the possibility that "any relationship is possible". Every fic is written differently and many authors often explore the various directions River’s “first” relationship can go. Many are heartbreaking and do not end blissfully, and others do.

Since you avoid reading Mal/River and Jayne/River fic because you do not agree and or enjoy it (and you have that right just as we have to write it) I can see where it would be hard to find one written to your standards. Rayne or even Maliver fic tend to attract more open minded readers.

Quote:
But, as I said above, it seems to me we are mainly arguing about whether she would have a stable, lasting relationship with Jayne (or Mal, but mostly Jayne)

No, actually we are arguing if River should ever be “allowed” to enter into such arrangements in the first place. No relationship can be guaranteed to last.

Quote:
You know, now that I think about it, we're all looking at this from the wrong perspective. I mean, for heaven's sake, it's Joss we're talking about. If the series had continued, no one would have been happy. He would have found a way for everyone's relationship to be ruined...course, this wouldn't be looking at things from the perspective of fan fiction. What was the original topic of this thread again?

Yes, deepgirl, he would have. Unfortunately, I can see him doing that especially with a River/Jayne relationship. That’s the beauty of fanfic, sometimes you can write your happy ending, and Wash can still be alive.

“Hell is coming to breakfast.”

DANNIISUPERNOVA

Friday, January 26, 2007 12:51 AM

I don't ship Rayne but I support your right to choose dammit! (being on another disliked ship)

_____

"You know that's gonna fall off."
-----Nathan Fillion (to me while drunk)

How are ships unlike food?
1. If you try it and don't like it, you don't have to do it again.
2. You can have as much as you want, when you want.
3. Cravings can be very specific.
I mean, hello it's not as if there's 'ship police?

ASARIAN

Friday, January 26, 2007 6:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

I've been having thoughts about something Asarian got into waaaay back:

Quote:
All of a sudden reading how River is grappling with any of the crew -- apart from finding it all manner of distasteful to take advantage of a mentally traumatized seventeen year old girl -- really, IMNSHO, violates not just River, but the very fabric of Firefly itself.

I must go further with this idea of the fabric of Firefly, because it's such a strong idea.

As I see it, the main story to Firefly/Serenity is Mal's ongoing conflict with the Alliance. River's character serves as the push to get him back into that battle. She's an innocent that got trampled by the Alliance, and as such she brings out a protective instinct in the crew. OK, not in Jayne, but certainly in Mal. Because he chooses to protect her, and not to abandon her, she gets them all to Miranda. She's like the drop that starts the flood or something like that.

Her role is to return idealism and self-sacrifice to a hardened and self-serving crew, and her youth and inexperience are absolutely necessary for that. The fact that she's half fighting machine just heightens the tragedy of what the Alliance has done to her, because River herself is not a killer. The part of her they created and control through subconscious triggers is the killer. In the movie, she finds a way to reach that part of herself, but she does it to save the people she loves. She's still very much an innocent - and even more tragic because she's accepted this dark part of herself that she abhors, sacrificing some of her innocence to save her brother.

So... having River just jump into bed with Mal or Jayne (oh yes, there are those fics where it's that simple. "I'm 18 now, I'm going to bed who I want!" *shudder*) completely goes against what Joss has so carefully set up. It's not something I can stomach.

IMNSHO.

Ah, yes, the fabric of Firefly. One of my favorite topics. :) I'm glad you feel it's such a strong idea, because, well, it is.

River, apart from trying to function like a girl, also functions like a catalyst (not catalyzer) for that "hardened and self-serving crew," to help them reconnect to their humanity.

Mal ain't looking for help from on high no more. After the Battle of Serenity Valley, it was really Mal, personally, who suffered a crushing defeat. Because when one is so disillusioned that one can literally no longer take the "high" road, what's left is a sense of loss of direction. Mal became, one might say, a rebel without a cause.

Then came River. And what River awakened in Mal, I think, was not so much a renewed continuation of his conflict with the Alliance, per se, but rather a way for him to turn that "upward path" inwardly, so to speak. In River, he found the realization that the 'verse, at large, don't necessarily has to make sense, or be just even. Or rather, I should say perhaps, he started realizing that helping River IS the way to have the 'the verse make sense -- along the lines of that old adage: "He who saves one life, saves the 'verse entire." I doubt any of this ever really surfaced, consciously, to the upper echelons of Mal's brainpan; but River gave Mal a renewed sense of purpose nonetheless.

That fabric has a name, you know. It's called Love. It forges ties that are stronger than the prospect of profit or the opportunities to take advantage. It's what Mal tried to explain to Saffron: "That's 'cause I got people with me, people who trust each other, who do for each other, and ain't always looking for the advantage." Mal, his own self, does not take advantage of River; CANNOT take advantage of her. Not because of any imputed closed-mindedness on the part of me and mine; but simply because doing so would be like dropping the knitting-needle, and see the whole well-crafted Firefly fabric unravel along with it before your very eyes!

Mal has a protective, fatherly role towards Kaylee, too. When Kaylee was talking 'bout what's twixt her nethers, Mal wasn't kidding when he

MAL4PREZ

Friday, January 26, 2007 4:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:
Well, at least you're open to the possibility that "any relationship is possible".

I don't think anyone here isn't open to that! Some may be saying they won't read River/Jayne, but that's a different thing! We're just opposed to the way the characters are soemtimes portrayed, because it seems to sell them short or run counter to what we saw of them in the series and movie.

Quote:
No, actually we are arguing if River should ever be “allowed” to enter into such arrangements in the first place. No relationship can be guaranteed to last.

Really - that's not the argument at all! It was your insistance that River's experience of torture and her ability to fly a spaceship make her an expert on people and relationships... this is what got me into the game!

I've repeatedly stated that she should have a relationship, and even that it could be with Jayne. But, if it's going to be a believable fanfic, the character should be River - the character Joss gave us, not some other version of her. Of course, the "River that Joss gave us" is not absolutely defined, and it's fun to talk about her and compare our different understandings of her. That's all that's happening here! It's a debate to bring out new insights.

Now - I must admit that I'm selfishly motivated here. As Asarian and I are in total agreement over, there is a fabric to Firefly that is so often ignored in fic. Almost always, in fact. I wish more writers took it into account, because I can't read much that blows it all off. So... if I can convince anyone to key in on a wider view of the 'verse, and present the characters with all this in mind, (as Joss obviously did) I'll have more that I like reading.

But that's just me.

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

ROMANCEGURU

Saturday, January 27, 2007 2:14 AM

Quote:
Really - that's not the argument at all! It was your insistance that River's experience of torture and her ability to fly a spaceship make her an expert on people and relationships... this is what got me into the game!

That is really unfair because that was one of my examples towards the main argument, not the basis of it. I never said it made her an expert, you are embellishing. Personally, I see that as just one example of her capabilities as a person, which many here paint River as completely damaged and unstable. Just because YOU many have jumped into the game at that point does not mean that was the central theme of the disagreement.

MANY have clearly stated they were not open to the possibility of Rayne, what do you think I have been arguing?

I agree fic’s are better when portrayed accurately (or as accurately as one can given personal interpretation for we are not Joss) and a lot of thought and exploration is done of the character through the story.

Of course, this is fanfiction and most of it is not going to be spot on, but we can try and at least do the 'verse justice. When you write non-canon that it going to be even more difficult. All I ask, and ask for other writers is to not be flamed and be categorized as pervey because we see different possible relationship dynamics.

For argument sake, even if some aren’t plausible, I’m still going to respect the creativity of the author for going against the norm and attempting to make it work.

“Hell is coming to breakfast.”

MAL4PREZ

Monday, January 29, 2007 7:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:
I never said it made her an expert, you are embellishing. Personally, I see that as just one example of her capabilities as a person, which many here paint River as completely damaged and unstable. Just because YOU many have jumped into the game at that point does not mean that was the central theme of the disagreement.

Wow... did it just get a little tense in here?

*adjusts collar, clears throat, takes a big step back*

Ummm... OK... River's perceived maturity is central to the River/Jayne pedophilia question (don't flame me - I'm just paraphrasing the original post here!) and you clearly used her intelligence and abilities and her life experiences to back your argument about her level of maturity.

I disagree with that. But hey now... just because I don't agree with you and I'm willing to get into debate about it, doesn't mean I hate you and want to trash any bit of fanfic you like. We're all fans here, ok? Debate is fun! Getting mad isn't!

Quote:
MANY have clearly stated they were not open to the possibility of Rayne, what do you think I have been arguing?

You know, there's just things people don't like! And some may even say - "this should NEVER be written, grrr.." I very much hope I have not come off that way. I try to be clear that as strong as I feel about some fic stuff, it's all nothing but my opinion, and the only thing my opinion affects in the end is whether or not mal4prez reads a fic. (Which at least 99.9999% of the FFF 'verse doesn't give a hoot about.)

Quote:
All I ask, and ask for other writers is to not be flamed and be categorized as pervey because we see different possible relationship dynamics.

Do you think it's possible that a person can find the River/Jayne pairing pervy without judging the writer to be so? Maybe this is what you seem to find insulting, that you think one means the other?

So maybe think of it this way - I myself don't find the writers pervy, because I feel that many writers do a hey-presto change to River's character in order to make the pairing work in a non-creepy way. This change is what bothers me, and it's what I got into debating. If that was a tangent... well, I don't apologize because I thought it was a wicked fun tangent, and Asarian's posts certainly gave me some new insight into how I treat River in my own fics. Tangents make for good and interesting rides.

Quote:
For argument sake, even if some aren’t plausible, I’m still going to respect the creativity of the author for going against the norm and attempting to make it work.

That's fine, and you should read your River/Jayne and leave glowing feedback when you feel it's deserved, and good for ANY writers having the courage to post their work publicly!

But I don't have to read it, and I can certainly debate the merit behind certain treatments of the characters. And - I stress this again - just because some of us hate the idea of a certain pairing and like to sit around chewing little aspects of it, it doesn't mean we're out to personally insult you!

)))))))) ***vibes of love coming your way*** ))))))))))))))))))))))

BTW... and here I'm going to share an opinion you (and others) may not like... I don't think simply pairing any two characters is such a huge creative against-the-norm step. Seems that most of the fic in the BSR is based on romantic pairings, whether it be canon, or non-canon or slash or space incest or Jayne and the cows. (OK, I made that last one up.) Don't get me wrong - a lot of shipper fic is quite stunning, and any pairing can be handled in a novel way which is creative. But I'd love to see writers do fics that aren't all about romantic fantasties... now that's against the norm!!

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Maybe it's just my perception of the posts I've read, but it seems as if some are completely opposed to the idea of River ever have control over her life and the choices she makes.

I'm not opposed to it at all. I just don't think that's the state of things at any time during

BUGCHICKLV

Friday, February 2, 2007 9:28 AM

"Seems that most of the fic in the BSR is based on romantic pairings, whether it be canon, or non-canon or slash or space incest or Jayne and the cows. (OK, I made that last one up.) Don't get me wrong - a lot of shipper fic is quite stunning, and any pairing can be handled in a novel way which is creative. But I'd love to see writers do fics that aren't all about romantic fantasties... now that's against the norm!!"

I'll admit it: I love reading River/Jayne. And I write it. But what I wrote 2 years ago is NOTHING like what I've written more recently. I just cannot write the Happily Ever After fics anymore (but I *DO* read them).

Now they tend to be more about pain and angst and hurt/comfort and connecting on a base level and everyone else is paired up and sharing common interests and learning new ones and exploring new sexuality and what it might be to love and a curious RIVER taking advantage of a MUCH less mature Jayne who's overwhelmed cause OMG she is a hottie so why not? And in some of them I've killed her and in others I've killed him.

I also tend to like READING the notsohappilyeverafter fics.

Also, there are those of us who more broadly define River/Jayne to include a murderous hatred, an antagonistic affair, genuine friendship, and sex for sex sake (which tends to take place once she's older cause WE HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT JOSS HAD PLANNED. And it's not like he didn't do it before with Bangel and Spuffy.)

And honestly, it does feel like the majority of anti-Rayne comments say "Eww Rayne is written by Pervs for other Pervs." So we tend to take it personally.

(Also, for mentioning the cow thing--you are ev0l. I now want to write that.)

**********
"Do you know what the chain of command is here? It's the chain I go get and beat you with to show you who's in ruttin' command."

AGENTROUKA

Friday, February 2, 2007 11:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bugchicklv:

And honestly, it does feel like the majority of anti-Rayne comments say "Eww Rayne is written by Pervs for other Pervs." So we tend to take it personally.

I can't speak for others, but I, personally, don't consider Rayne-writers perverts.

I just consider them to be writing an out-of-character fantasy version of River (and occasionally Jayne) that often completely disregards the depths of her mental problems, immaturity and trauma, for the sake of fulfilling a certain preferred scenario.

(I do think that of most River-pairings, with varying vehemence.)

Which is fine, writers have that right, I happily ignore their work and don't judge them.

But in a public discussion thread like this one, I think it's fair and allowed to discuss why and how I consider this to be OOC and not really justifiable in the context of the show and real life examples.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, February 2, 2007 11:43 AM

Can somebody point me in the direction of the Jayne/cow stories?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

MAL4PREZ

Friday, February 2, 2007 2:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bugchicklv:
I also tend to like READING the notsohappilyeverafter fics.

I do too, totally! Angst is lots of fun.

But I'm really talking about non-pairing, or stories where the lovey relationships come second. Really - how many fics out there deal with Kaylee as an individual, and not Kaylee as half of Kaylee/Simon or Kaylee/Jayne? (or K/River or K/Inara or whatever) Very, very few.

So how about a fic about River, about her dealing with her trauma, and any relationship she might have with Jayne is secondary to that? That might interest me, because it really respects the depths of this character and her experiences.

Quote:
And honestly, it does feel like the majority of anti-Rayne comments say "Eww Rayne is written by Pervs for other Pervs." So we tend to take it personally.

That's a shame, and I know some people do get a little vehement and say stuff like that. I'm with AR though - it's the characterizations generally involved with this pairing (or with any River pairing) that gets at me.

But really - don't confuse the comment "I find Jayne/River pervy" with "This writer is a perv for writing Jayne/River." It's two different things! One is a perception, one is a judgement.

Quote:
(Also, for mentioning the cow thing--you are ev0l. I now want to write that.)

Hey - go crazy! See, you have one reader already!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

SPACEANJL

Friday, February 2, 2007 3:18 PM

Gonna pop in here my own self. I write Firefic big time. 90,000+ words and counting. But I write in a framework I see growing out of the series/comic/movie.

And what I saw in the last scene of the BDM was interesting enough to spin part of my brain off down a very dark and twisty path.

Take one teenage girl. Put her in close proximity to a charming, funny, handsome, protective war hero. Throw in some heartache for him. So, we have brooding and slightly tortured, but covering it up with a charming grin.

River would be perfectly normal if she got a crush. And River wants to be normal...

Of course, we then have the reaction of said man. Which will be interesting. Especially if man is honourable. (And tortured. And lonely. And really, really freaked out by the whole thing. Including his response.)

I avoid Raynefic. Not my thing. I don't see Jayne as chasing children. (Besides, his wife would kill him.) But it's a big 'Verse - some people juggle geese. (Jayne and cows...?)

Writing the whole crew as an ensemble is not so easy. Seven people in a small space, all reliant upon each other. New relationships evolving (and this includes Zoe as a lone character, not part of a pair.) Maybe I'm not as twisted as Joss (or some folk) but I'm happy writing my own version of what I see evolving out of what Joss gave us. And I see River growing up, trying to be normal, but with a dark knowledge of her own limitations in that way - she was always smarter than other folks. Maybe she's even trying to be 'normal' according to some formula she's worked out.

But proximity or not...you put any woman with a pulse near Cap'n Tightpants, and tell me she's not going to look?

BUGCHICKLV

Friday, February 2, 2007 6:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
Take one teenage girl. Put her in close proximity to a charming, funny, handsome, protective war hero. Throw in some heartache for him. So, we have brooding and slightly tortured, but covering it up with a charming grin.

River would be perfectly normal if she got a crush. And River wants to be normal...

Of course, we then have the reaction of said man. Which will be interesting. Especially if man is honourable. (And tortured. And lonely. And really, really freaked out by the whole thing. Including his response.)

Totally agree (epecially on the crush thing); but change it to a less than honorable, creeped out, selfish, greedy, gun-slinging mercenary. EGADS! You have the same potential for all sorts of scenarios (as long as we don't foofify Jayne. Which I think I used to do--but avoid like the plague now).

MOST of these scenarios don't work out and some of the best writing/reading is when they realize the mistake.

And who HASN'T made a really bad decison, especially when it comes to sex/relationships? Me? I make 'em all the time--but nothing I wouldn't do again exactly the same. I'd rather regret the things I DID do than the things I didn't.

Quote:
I avoid Raynefic. Not my thing. I don't see Jayne as chasing children. (Besides, his wife would kill him.) But it's a big 'Verse - some people juggle geese. (Jayne and cows...?)

LOL! Just like I avoid Mal/River because it's too incesty IMHO (although I *DO* like some of the Crazy Space Incest. *shrug* I think it is because the VERY FEW writers I've chosen to read are INCREDIBLY good at it and make it not so icky).

18 yrs old is not considered a child in most cultures. Now, emotionally/behaviorally--that's another story. But then again, I happen to think Jayne was stunted somehow, someway around that time--jail?--so it puts them on a level playing field. And many of our writers do age her quite a bit.

FYI Mercedes McNab is only one year older than Summer and yet he was shown half-nekkid in bed with her in Angel. Wife didn't kill him then. And Jewel is a year YOUNGER than Summer. But those people who draw the line on Rayne SIMPLY BECAUSE of the age thing (and yet go nuts over Raylee) seem to forget that.

But you are right--there's room for everyone in this verse. That is the beauty (and the curse) of having so little to work with.

ARRRRGH! I am determined to write the cow/Jayne thing (but from the cows' perspective). Can't help it...I wrote about Binky reeeeeally liking the licky-thing, and Vera being jealous of Boo (sorta)--so this is 100% a natural evolution.

Yes, I know. Me=Bent.

Quote:
But proximity or not...you put any woman with a pulse near Cap'n Tightpants, and tell me she's not going to look?

I'd look, but when I realized it was my dad I'd start gagging and flailing about. Cause, IMHO, Mal is more of a father to her than her own ever was.

Plus, I happen to worship Adam while finding Nathan just ok. And for some people the degree of like we have for the actor can't help but filter into our preferences for fanfic (writing or reading). It's why I read A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G with Jayne in it: Mal/Jayne *rowr* Jayne/Simon *zomygawd* Jayne/Inara *fans self*...you get the point.

But I guess what I am saying here is who's to say what is Out Of Character? Especially for a fic that happens in the FUTURE or is AU? We have NO idea what Joss had planned. And Buffy season 6 is so completely different from Buffy season one, that if someone had written Spuffy back when she was in high school EVERYONE would have lambasted the writer for writing her out of character--even if it were under the exact same circumstances as Joss gave us 3 years later!

But time passes and circumstances change which means ANYTHING can happen. That is all most of us who like Rayne are saying.

**********
"Do you know what the chain of command is here? It's the chain I go get and beat you with to show you who's in ruttin' com

BUGCHICKLV

Friday, February 2, 2007 6:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Can somebody point me in the direction of the Jayne/cow stories?

Working on it.

No, really.

**********
"Do you know what the chain of command is here? It's the chain I go get and beat you with to show you who's in ruttin' command."

MAL4PREZ

Friday, February 2, 2007 6:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bugchicklv:
FYI Mercedes McNab is only one year older than Summer and yet he was shown half-nekkid in bed with her in Angel. Wife didn't kill him then. And Jewel is a year YOUNGER than Summer. But those people who draw the line on Rayne SIMPLY BECAUSE of the age thing (and yet go nuts over Raylee) seem to forget that.

I'm beating a dead issue here, but it's River's mental age that's the issue, not her years-old age.

Edit to add: the age of the actors is irrelevant. We're talking about the characters here!

Quote:
Plus, I happen to worship Adam while finding Nathan just ok.

*gasp* wipes eyes, looks again...

Just okay?

*minor cardiac arrest*

OK, I'm recovering... LOL!

Quote:
But I guess what I am saying here is who's to say what is Out Of Character?

Defining OOC five years down the road - sure, not possible. I don't think anyone's trying to do that! But OOC during the series and movie and within a short time after... that can certainly be argued. I mean, if Mal randomly started flitting around the ship in a tutu and pointe shoes right after the movie ends, that's OOC. It may be fun, and write it if you want, but it's certainly OOC.

The argument I have is with fics where - right after the movie - River attacks Jayne and they fall madly in love forever and ever and make lots of babies. Sure, fun porn and fantasy, go ahead and write it. But it's OOC. IMO.

Quote:
ARRRRGH! I am determined to write the cow/Jayne thing (but from the cows' perspective). Can't help it...I wrote about Binky reeeeeally liking the licky-thing, and Vera being jealous of Boo (sorta)--so this is 100% a natural evolution.

LOL! Good lord. Bring in on you crazy person!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

BUGCHICKLV

Friday, February 2, 2007 7:48 PM

Hey Mal, I know YOU are talking about the mental age thing, but the poster I was replying to mentioned Adam's wife having a cow (cow? ARRRGH! They're everywhere!!) and I just had to clear that up.

But I did say that I believe Jayne was emotionally stunted and I think he and River might be on a level playing field, though not when it comes to life experience. Both conditions I think could be cause for some interesting fic.

I tend to read fanfic on Livejournal and it's been a long while since I've seen a "Kill the reavers, fix the ship, OMG JAYNE IS HOT, lets have babies" fic.

Maybe that is different here and is what the hullabuloo is all about...

**********
"Do you know what the chain of command is here? It's the chain I go get and beat you with to show you who's in ruttin' command."

MAL4PREZ

Friday, February 2, 2007 9:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bugchicklv:
I tend to read fanfic on Livejournal and it's been a long while since I've seen a "Kill the reavers, fix the ship, OMG JAYNE IS HOT, lets have babies" fic.

Maybe that is different here and is what the hullabuloo is all about...

Speaking for myself only: I have particular tastes, and it seems like there isn't a lot besides romantic type fics here lately. Even adventure stuff tends to be couple oriented... you know, a heavy dose of the lover worrying over the loved one and lots of making up after. That can be nice, but I'm a little burnt out with it.

I don't know my way around LiveJournal - I've tried but it seems hard. I'll find a fic I like but I can't manage to get a list of other fics by that author. I guess I'm just LiveJournal challenged LOL!

I figure whinging about what I'd like to read might help my cause... either that or make people really hate me.

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

BUGCHICKLV

Friday, February 2, 2007 10:09 PM

If you like Gen/Action then you should try

http://community.livejournal.com/ff_fanfic/

or

http://community.livejournal.com/afterserenity/

But I find that keeping an eye out for the daily post at
http://community.livejournal.com/the_cortex/

is usually enough to find out what's being written. And the mods group things well, and always let us know when something is gen, het, slash etc.

I think there is also a community called the crack van that provides EXCELLENT referrals--you just have to wade through the 40thousand OTHER fandoms being recced every month.

http://community.livejournal.com/crack_van/

There's also a website/community for a virtual season 2 called "Freedom is What?"--with REALLY good episodes. Some of the writing is PHENOMENAL. And there usually ain't much by way of fluffy in them.

http://community.livejournal.com/freedom_is_what/

Just a few suggestions. These might not be what you're looking for, and if not just do an interest search or look for other communities.

There are soooooo many communities at LJ that are dedicated to Firefly so if you enter that in the search space, Good luck!!

**********
"Do you know what the chain of command is here? It's the chain I go get and beat you with to show you who's in ruttin' command."

YINYANG

Saturday, February 3, 2007 12:14 AM

Don't forget the folks with Virtual Firefly, either! Their writing just keeps improving, and it's the only fanfic I've read that feels very cannon (which is really, really, really saying a lot... really).

http://www.stillflying.net

Rules: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=22892
Voting: http://www.wunschliste.de/index.pl?vote&r=09

PLATONIST

Saturday, February 3, 2007 3:58 AM

Thanks for posting the other fic sites bugchicklv.

more often than less, I find nothing here but lack of plot, poor characterizations, unfit dialogue, unbelievable sexual pairing (I need a mind trojan for some) fantasy OCs that I care nothing about, off beat tone and theme for this verse...I think you get the picture....but once in a while I stumble upon a fic from a young writer that has depth and passion and it makes up for all the shallow watered ones I've had to wade through...for any new writer, to this verse, I would suggest short plot driven stories with canon pairings, otherwise you stand the chance of losing your audience or narrowing it down to the few readers that want Jayne/Cow

ASARIAN

Saturday, February 3, 2007 6:42 AM

Been out of this thread for a spell. Like to walk it a while.

I believe AgentRouka said it best: certain fanfic is written out-of-character for the sake of fulfilling a certain preferred scenario.

There's something else I read:

"Take one teenage girl. Put her in close proximity to a charming, funny, handsome, protective war hero." Etc.

When I read this, my heart sank into my shoes. Not because of any perceived perviness or anything, but because of a realization I just had. One that brought me back to the fabric of Firefly.

Let's say, for the limited scope of this thread, that there are only two loves: Love, and the stuff surrounding making love. The part where my heart sank to my feet, is where it dawned upon me that the very fabric of Firefly is uprooted on a much more fundamental level even than I initially realized. In a nutshell (and somewhat over-generalized, to make the point): Firefly is about Love, vs. the majority of fanfic being about making love.

Why does having this sink in dishearten me so? Because, well, I think the magic which is Firefly is seated in being the opposite of pretty much everything else in Hollywood: it's about Love, and not the making love. The former is about having deep, tender, ineffable feelings of affection for people, and letting those feelings be real enough to do right by your teenage crew member, even if you don't figure the percentage. Or even if it costs you. The latter is about, well, Imponderables and Water Coolers. :)

They say in Hollywood there's really only 1 story: "The delayed frak" (slightly censored) as they call it. So, who could blame our fanfic writers for going that route? Not me. Don't mean I don't cringe at this schism between what may well be the one-and-only true Love story ever told, Firefly, and the predominant emotion of sex and romance near exclusively exploited in fanfic.

So I'd say, Take one teenage girl. Put her in close proximity to a charming, funny, handsome, protective war hero. And then... make it about Love, not making love. Like our genius man Joss did. I'll look forward to reading that. Don't expect to find me near the water cooler, though.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

6IXSTRINGJACK

Saturday, February 3, 2007 6:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bugchicklv:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Can somebody point me in the direction of the Jayne/cow stories?

Working on it.

No, really.

**********
"Do you know what the chain of command is here? It's the chain I go get and beat you with to show you who's in ruttin' command."

GREAT!

Hey with a name like BUGCHICKLUV maybe you can hook a brother up with some Jayne/Chicken stories too?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

AGENTROUKA

Saturday, February 3, 2007 11:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:

So I'd say, Take one teenage girl. Put her in close proximity to a charming, funny, handsome, protective war hero. And then... make it about Love, not making love. Like our genius man Joss did. I'll look forward to reading that. Don't expect to find me near the water cooler, though.

That is beautifully said.

A lovely post entirely, in fact!

While I love fluff and sex as much as the next girl (and I have written lots of fluff), the stories that really move me are the ones where that is secondary to the actual, unsexual nature of love and how that allows people to be more than before. To let go and forgive and provide space and lend safety.

Exploring River and Mal and NOT adding in the "hot, nubile, bendy, barely legal teenaged girl" factor that no red-blooded man can supposedly resist - now that's refreshing, brave and original writing I would love to see.

SPACEANJL

Saturday, February 3, 2007 2:06 PM

Well, that's partly what I am trying to do I'm three stories into my arc, and so far, Mal has just registered River is more than a killing machine/fabulous pilot. He got all snotty and over-protective when she expressed interest in a boy, but he's still convinced it's because he's the captain and in charge, blah blah.

I think the Serenity River was a condensed version of what the character evolution would have been, had the series continued. The sweet little girl we see in the first R Tam session is absolutely heart-breaking, when you see the fragmented, scared and confused nutjob we get later. But once River embraces that part of herself ('my turn') and begins to control it, instead of it controlling her...

Firefly is about a family. And I don't think any fic has to be purely about bed-hopping, space-spawn and a line drawn under the 'happy-ever-after'. All these people are recovering from something, be it war, bereveament, sanctioned torture or abandonment, adjusting to a life together.

BTW, the bit about the wife referred to Jayne's wife, and was a blatant self-promotion for my fic.

STINKINGROSE

Saturday, February 3, 2007 10:25 PM

I'll add another blatant plug for your fics and raise you a mental visual.

Mal realizes what he's thinking and immediately starts looking around for a wire brush (to scrub out the inside of his head for having those thoughts).
"Wait..what am I THINKING??!!!"

Okay, what he does for amusement in his own head is one thing....what he does with his body needs to square with his code of ethics.

(... you could always put him through so much he starts crunching new code...)

SPACEANJL

Sunday, February 4, 2007 12:52 PM

That's pretty much a large part of the next story arc right there. See, I think the best angst comes from the little everyday things.

Just watch that last scene in Serenity again. Or the last interaction between Mal and River in OiS. As has been pointed out, up until then, he's barely spoken directly to her (except the panicked endearments when he tries to get her to put the gun down at the beginning of the episode.) But there is a real connection forming there - and it is Love, the sense of family and belonging. And I'm sorry, but I never got any sense of a connection forming between Jayne and River at any point in the series or the BDM. (I've watched 'em a few times over, shall we say.)

I am going to have me so much fun...(evil Minear-like laughter)

And of course, Inara is going to have a cow (oops, there they are again...)

PLATONIST

Sunday, February 4, 2007 4:50 PM

Leave the arcing to Joss!

Joss clearly states in the Director's comments that Mal is "teaching" River (an underage girl) a life lesson and uses the piloting metaphor to speak on the nature of love. Misinterpretation of this scene sullies its' beauty and Joss' words.
Justifiying using it as a springboard for a future romantic(sexual) relationship in fan created fiction is misguided because it compromises the growing trust between two of your main characters.

Please don't beg for comments. You already have mine.

STINKINGROSE

Sunday, February 4, 2007 10:13 PM

Please go read her fics before assuming anything about what she's likely to do.

Hers is an evil laugh and a twisty mind that makes you think you're going one place only to find yourself somewhere else. You usually do not see it coming, but when you go back you can see where she laid the trap all subtle like.

She's more likely to beat up on Mal 'cause it's fun to Cap'n bash. I'm pretty sure River is sacrosanct (more or less) until she's feeling all better.

But I could be wrong..

I've got River going with a younger boy, though she did make a pass at Jayne just to see what would happen. He got to show a bit of moral fiber, and be terribly discomfited at the same time. Jayne turned down trim. No, really!

PLATONIST

Monday, February 5, 2007 2:21 AM

Actually, I've read some of the above mentioned writer's fic posts and enjoyed them and left comments.

Give me a chance to clarify. The relationshp between Mal and River is one that is dear to my heart (I'm a parent of a teenage daughter) and I love the direction Joss was going with them post movie (as I see it as a daddy/daughter relation, remember Lil' Albatross) as much as I love Inara's journey in to teaching. After my own heart... are ya Joss?

We all agree that they are "family". Saying as much, any implication that they are destine for a sexual encounter or relationship beyond a teenage crush loses its luster as anything I would be interested in reading.

Writers can write what ever they want, but if they want to be taken seriously by their intended audience (thinking breathing fans of Joss' verse) they need to challenge themselves to go beyond current standards of poorly confluented popular media writings that often include serial bedhopping. The Forty Year Old Virgin writers actually poked fun at these practices with great success.

Fiction is the hardest writing genre a writer attempts. It takes drawing from personal life experiences to create fleshed out characters within a well developed plot. We can only assume that a big part of River's character growth will be sexual (she has heightened awareness after all, LOL) but to portray every male character on and off the boat as lusting after her innocent virginity in the guise of jealousy for her affections is creepy and lecherous at best, especially for Mal because it is out of character. The Captain has a strange sense of nobility and after all he is in love with someone else regardless if it works in your AU.

As an English teacher, nothing burns me as much as young talented writers that portray every relationship between male and female characters as a potential pairing. It's the easy way out. The adolescent angsty soap opera. From an audience's viewpoint, it is far more interesting for characters to develop relationships not based on preconceived gender orientation, ie Mal and Zoe or Wash and Kaylee. It keeps us guessing!

There are numerous themes that writers can draw from in this verse. Choose from your heart and write with your soul. If you end up with a fairytale so what? We all love The Princess Bride. Like I tell my students, wait to put your name on your work until you are honestly satisfied -- a final copy-- something to be proud of. And certianly never ever put my name on it!

I will watch for her next posting with anticipation.

SPACEANJL

Monday, February 5, 2007 1:44 PM

Why, thank you, kind sir.

I'm afraid I did go down the route of bed-hopping with Jayne, but that was because, he was, well, Jayne. And the character he has a relationship with, is a grown woman with life experiences and a full knowledge of what she's getting herself into. (Jayne's pants mainly, but, meh... ) Otherwise, the other relationships I have referred to are canon, inferred from series or BDM. And my idea of why Mal and Inara can't make a go of it, well, I've set them out so far. (Joss himself is a Frank Herbert fan, so the Bene Gesserit vibe spoke to me.)

All I'm saying, is that regardless of what he might do about it, Mal is a very likely candidate for a crush. And the responses to that situation will be interesting to write. Particularly as he is an honourable and decent man.

There is enough hinky pornfic out there without me adding to it. *adopts noble stance* I am after all attempting to create and visualise in the style of the master, a homage, if you will.

That, and I like blowing sh*t up.

MAL4PREZ

Monday, February 5, 2007 3:44 PM

Ahhh! This is very frustrating. I have several chapters of fic that addresses all this in my own way, but I can't post it yet, and can't talk about it because I don't want to give things away.

Will you all just be ready to return to this topic when I finally get around to posting?

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

STINKINGROSE

Tuesday, February 6, 2007 12:51 AM

If you promise to make a new thread.. this one's getting long in the tooth.

JETFLAIR

Sunday, February 11, 2007 12:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
After all, what's not to love? He ain't weak, he's honorable, a hero, a protector (not to mention, quite a stud to boot). But see, all these glowing qualities in Mal should precisely prevent him from taking advantage of her! And, frankly, I don't think for a moment he would.
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

That was absolutely perfectly put. I recognize that everyone has the right to express themselves artistically in fanfic as they wish, but for me, as a reader and as a Mal fan, it bothers me profoundly to read Mal/River "romance."

Mal, whatever his faults, is a profoundly honorable man with a deep respect of women. Do I have a crush on him? Yes indeed :)

But the Mal I love, respect, and am attracted to, the Mal portrayed in Firefly, would not engage in a sexual relationship with River, for all the reasons already discussed in this thread. Not even if she is over eighteen, not even if she has a crush on him.

In my view, the Mal/River fics violate not only River, but Mal as well. And Mal ain't a character I enjoy seeing violated.

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

JETFLAIR

Sunday, February 11, 2007 1:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Let's say, for the limited scope of this thread, that there are only two loves: Love, and the stuff surrounding making love. The part where my heart sank to my feet, is where it dawned upon me that the very fabric of Firefly is uprooted on a much more fundamental level even than I initially realized. In a nutshell (and somewhat over-generalized, to make the point): Firefly is about Love, vs. the majority of fanfic being about making love.

Why does having this sink in dishearten me so? Because, well, I think the magic which is Firefly is seated in being the opposite of pretty much everything else in Hollywood: it's about Love, and not the making love. The former is about having deep, tender, ineffable feelings of affection for people, and letting those feelings be real enough to do right by your teenage crew member, even if you don't figure the percentage. Or even if it costs you.

So I'd say, Take one teenage girl. Put her in close proximity to a charming, funny, handsome, protective war hero. And then... make it about Love, not making love. Like our genius man Joss did. I'll look forward to reading that. Don't expect to find me near the water cooler, though.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

Another wonderful and very thought-provoking point. You just made me realize what it is that is probably the most challenging in the writing of my own fanfic. That non-sexual, non-sentimental, genuine love is one of the most precious elements of Firefly, and the elusive element I'm trying to capture.

It's incredibly difficult, though, because written expressions of love tend to come across as either unrealistically sentimental for the 'verse, or as sexual. People are so accustomed to looking for the sexual element in everything that one has to be almost explicit in saying "that's not what I'm getting at!"

My story is a POW drama, and Mal and Wash are locked up together. Twice now I've told people the story outline and recoiled when they said "Oh, so it's slash?" NO! In the same story, Mal hugs Zoe in two seperate scenes, very tender, loving, and completely non-sexual scenes, and I had someone complain that I was writing Mal/Zoe fic.

So as a writer, it's very difficult to portray love that will not be construed as sexual in nature.

At its core, my story is about Mal recovering from a series of devastating events and being able to do so, being able to cope and to remain the relatively whole, caring person he is in the series, thanks in part to the unexpected love and caring of the people around him.

I think on the screen, that would be so much easier to portray without words, with the use of those little silent moments and looks and smiles. Because in the written word, with my limitations as a writer, the essense of that love captured by Firefly is the most elusive and precious quality I could imagine.

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

ASARIAN

Monday, February 12, 2007 3:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jetflair:

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:

Let's say, for the limited scope of this thread, that there are only two loves: Love, and the stuff surrounding making love. The part where my heart sank to my feet, is where it dawned upon me that the very fabric of Firefly is uprooted on a much more fundamental level even than I initially realized. In a nutshell (and somewhat over-generalized, to make the point): Firefly is about Love, vs. the majority of fanfic being about making love.

Why does having this sink in dishearten me so? Because, well, I think the magic which is Firefly is seated in being the opposite of pretty much everything else in Hollywood: it's about Love, and not the making love. The former is about having deep, tender, ineffable feelings of affection for people, and letting those feelings be real enough to do right by your teenage crew member, even if you don't figure the percentage. Or even if it costs you.

So I'd say, Take one teenage girl. Put her in close proximity to a charming, funny, handsome, protective war hero. And then... make it about Love, not making love. Like our genius man Joss did. I'll look forward to reading that. Don't expect to find me near the water cooler, though.

Another wonderful and very thought-provoking point. You just made me realize what it is that is probably the most challenging in the writing of my own fanfic. That non-sexual, non-sentimental, genuine love is one of the most precious elements of Firefly, and the elusive element I'm trying to capture.

It's incredibly difficult, though, because written expressions of love tend to come across as either unrealistically sentimental for the 'verse, or as sexual. People are so accustomed to looking for the sexual element in everything that one has to be almost explicit in saying "that's not what I'm getting at!"

My story is a POW drama, and Mal and Wash are locked up together. Twice now I've told people the story outline and recoiled when they said "Oh, so it's slash?" NO! In the same story, Mal hugs Zoe in two seperate scenes, very tender, loving, and completely non-sexual scenes, and I had someone complain that I was writing Mal/Zoe fic.

So as a writer, it's very difficult to portray love that will not be construed as sexual in nature.

At its core, my story is about Mal recovering from a series of devastating events and being able to do so, being able to cope and to remain the relatively whole, caring person he is in the series, thanks in part to the unexpected love and caring of the people around him.

I think on the screen, that would be so much easier to portray without words, with the use of those little silent moments and looks and smiles. Because in the written word, with my limitations as a writer, the essense of that love captured by Firefly is the most elusive and precious quality I could imagine.

Jetflair!

You're so right: the Firefly Love is a most elusive and precious quality. So elusive even, I've argued on occasion, that it escapes many. :) Seriously. I've personally witnessed people be totally awestruck by Firefly, yet unable to express why. The essence of real Love, captured so brilliantly in Firefly, is so rare, that while it still resonates with the core of people's soul, of course, often, on a more conscious level, the why of their excitement eludes them. They just know they Love it. And want more.

So, I'd say, be gentle to yourself when you write fanfic. :) Because, really, it's extremely difficult to get it right. If it makes any difference, during the course of reading this thread, I had the idea of maybe writing my own fanfic then, and asked a good mutual friend of ours, FollowMal, who I could read first, to learn the trade, so to speak. She recommended yours as the creme-de-la-creme. Is that a commentary on you? Why yes, I think it is. :)

You know, in the other forum, I'd probably be unable to suppress the urge to call you Cap'n. I'd look silly doing that here, for certain. :) Don't mean I can't follow

AGENTROUKA

Tuesday, March 6, 2007 4:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Leave the arcing to Joss!

Joss clearly states in the Director's comments that Mal is "teaching" River (an underage girl) a life lesson and uses the piloting metaphor to speak on the nature of love. Misinterpretation of this scene sullies its' beauty and Joss' words.
Justifiying using it as a springboard for a future romantic(sexual) relationship in fan created fiction is misguided because it compromises the growing trust between two of your main characters.

Please don't beg for comments. You already have mine.

May I just say that this was beautifully put and spot on. You've really captured the point of that scene here.

It always hurts to see it "dragged" into a sense of romance and sex because it takes away so much of the purely human beauty and profundity.

AGENTROUKA

Tuesday, March 6, 2007 5:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
All I'm saying, is that regardless of what he might do about it, Mal is a very likely candidate for a crush. And the responses to that situation will be interesting to write. Particularly as he is an honourable and decent man.

The question that mostly concerns me in this scenario - and I'm not speaking about your fic in particular, as I haven't read it, but rather in general, and since you write Mal/River - is what in the 'verse would make Mal interested in River.

That River could develop as crush is no surprise, lots of girls start flirting with their father figures in a playful way, or develop crushes on authority figures or distant music/movie stars because it's safe, because they likely won't ever respond.

But Mal? What - beside a "hot young body" - would be the draw for Mal? He's so much older and more experienced and beyond so many things that River still has to go through.

I'm honestly curious why Mal would return a romantic and sexual attraction to someone whose father he could be.

It baffles me!

SPACEANJL

Wednesday, March 7, 2007 8:51 AM

I can tell you haven't read my stuff, since I am not a M/R shipper per se. And my point was Mal's reaction to being crushed upon, with all variations of panic.

What ever attracts two people? All I've done is set out River's side. If you go through the BSR, there are all permutations of relationship, most of which are admittedly horrible. In concept, as well as execution.

I'm aware from previous comments of yours that you would never even consider reading my stuff. Post-BDM and canon though it is, it also contains an OC crew member, designed to be the voice of the 'normal' 'Verse, a la Wash. And - horrors! - she's married to Jayne. I'm exploring that as a valid relationship to throw the other relationships into relief; two people of roughly the same age with various life experiences behind them, as opposed to 'Young Love' (S/K) 'Thwarted Love' (M/I) or the beginnings of adult feelings (R). It was important to Joss that there was an example of a happy adult relationship on board, and after he kebabed Wash, I felt there should be a replacement. And there are excellent reasons why it wouldn't be M/I.

Mal is an emotional basket-case, bless the man. But that's a whole other thread. I can write you something convincing and honest, but you would have to bother to read it and the back-story to get the nuances.

And the argument you just sat out against M/R, is exactly the argument I find against Jaylee or Rayne, myself.

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, March 7, 2007 9:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
I can tell you haven't read my stuff, since I am not a M/R shipper per se. And my point was Mal's reaction to being crushed upon, with all variations of panic.

Oh, I'm sorry, I just assumed that you favored a mutual attraction, since you mentioned Mal in your story being jealous of some boy flirting with River in some other thread somewhere (or maybe even here). Anyway, I wasn't inquiring about your story, but rather the general idea, but I see was overly presumptive, sorry.

So you don't actually think he would return her feelings? I guess, I'll have to find someone else to ask some time. :)

Quote:
And the argument you just sat out against M/R, is exactly the argument I find against Jaylee or Rayne, myself.

So would I, incidentally. :)

Jaylee less vehemently than anything involving River, since Kaylee has five years on River, but.. yeah. :)

SPACEANJL

Wednesday, March 7, 2007 9:41 AM

Well, hopefully when I write and post it up, it will all make sense.

River is bright and sweet and honest, and she's no longer a child. But yes, half his age and crew - is going to weird Mal out. I figure that in his time in service, he must have been the recipient of crushes before. But he isn't that old. The age gap is less than the Grissom/Sara one in CSI, for example. Or the very convincing Holmes/Russell relationship in the Laurie King books.

What happens when he meets somebody who loves the Black and Serenity as much as he does? Someone who can understand his pain? The fact it's wrapped up in a youthful package is the bad bit. But if Joss can do freaky mindjobs on our assumptions...

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, March 7, 2007 9:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
But he isn't that old. The age gap is less than the Grissom/Sara one in CSI, for example. Or the very convincing Holmes/Russell relationship in the Laurie King books.

To me, it's more the age contrast inherent in that age gap that causes the disconnect. Say, 35 to 55 is far less monumental than 16 to 32, 17 to 33. The former are two mature adults, the latter are separated by a very distinct phase of maturation that one has gone through and the other not yet, and not for years to come.

When she comes onto the ship, River is pretty much exactly half Mal's age, and I just have a really hard time picturing a scenario where Mal could overcome that gap, that initial paternal attitude, without losing those qualities of honor, responsibility and maturity that I like in his character.

But to each their own. :)

SPACEANJL

Wednesday, March 7, 2007 10:14 AM

Well, I have to say...I regard that as a challenge.

Keep watching the skies. (Or the BSR)

I don't see that it has to be a happy-ever-after, line drawn under it and final scenario, anyway. And I liked the idea posited earlier in this thread that Mal's age makes his paternal mean old man stance a bit of a joke. I'm not sure how old you are, but I'm the same age as NF, so that colours my perceptions.

btw, age gap in the King books? They first meet when she is fifteen and he's fifty-four. And it works, since tha author takes time to show the character maturing over the next few years.

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, March 7, 2007 10:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
And I liked the idea posited earlier in this thread that Mal's age makes his paternal mean old man stance a bit of a joke. I'm not sure how old you are, but I'm the same age as NF, so that colours my perceptions.

A paternal attitude is just that, a question of attitude, since Jayne, for example, doesn't have a streak of that in him and is at least Mal's age.
Mal leadership style is very personal, it's closely tied into this naturally paternal streak and displayed already in the first scene we meet him, his pep talk to soldiers his age or only a bit younger. It's not necessarily tied to the "mean old man" stance, but a real aspect of his character.

Plus, with the age gap and actual age-constellation of Mal and River, paternal feelings really are a more natural response and not a joke at all. It'd be a sign of immaturity in a thirty-something man if he felt more like a peer to an emotionally damaged teen half his age than an adult source of support.

So, I don't see a discrepancy there that would discredit Mal's paternal feelings as artificial.

Quote:
btw, age gap in the King books? They first meet when she is fifteen and he's fifty-four. And it works, since tha author takes time to show the character maturing over the next few years.

As you point out - it apparently can be done, in fiction and real life. I just don't, personally, see it in Mal or River, nor do I think it's the rule with relationships of that age constellation to be healthy.

PLATONIST

Thursday, March 8, 2007 1:14 AM

The problem that I have with M/R or M/OC is that the writer has the laborious task of deconstructing the relationship between Mal and Inara in a convincing manner. This is not an easy writing objective to meet. It is usually achieved by writing Inara (post BDM) as a calculating sinister character, in a contrived plot, breaking Mal's heart at every turn and task. I somewhat follow along objectively with great anticipation until I lose interest because I start to realize that the story ceases to feel like Firefly once the chemistry of M/I is gone and not regained.

In these fics, especially M/R, Mal tends to act like a fickle jilted 16 year old that has lost his intended prom date to his best friend. Last I looked Mal doesn't play jacks on the hull floor.

Then I start asking myself, with respect for the writer, would losing Inara, for whatever reason, send Mal flying into the arms of another, that just conveniently happens to be taking on all of the attributes of Inara, that Mal found so intriguing. Replacement Inara? Hasn't that been done already?

I'm not saying that I'm the biggest M/I shipper on this planet, but I do think they have the best romantic chemistry that the show has to offer. It was obviously important to Joss, the creator, he carried their "love's strength" theme soundly into the movie. I think if the show or trilogy would have continued they would have had a long and involved relationship (they've already shared so much). A tragic ending... perhaps, but one based on true mature love with them making all the sacrifices that they would deem necessary to sustain a beautiful and rare feeling.

EMPIREX

Thursday, March 8, 2007 2:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
The problem that I have with M/R or M/OC is that the writer has the laborious task of deconstucting the relationship between Mal and Inara in a convincing manner. This is not an easy writing objective to meet. It is usually achieved by writing Inara (post BDM) as a calculating sinister character, in a contrived plot, breaking Mal's heart at every turn and task.

In these fics, especially M/R, Mal tends to act like a fickle jilted 16 year old that has lost his intended prom date to his best friend. Last I looked Mal doesn't play jacks on the hull floor.

LOL! I totally agree, Platonist. Now I don't object to Inara/Other (mainly because of her job - that's just something we have to accept as an audience) and I don't object to Mal/Other, either - but let's take a look at the show.

In both instances where Mal embarks on a sexual relationship (with Saffron and with Nandi), it is not about love. It's about lust and it's about comfort. On the show, Mal and Inara aren't "together", but it seems to me, it takes an awful lot of "persuasion" to get him in the sack.

Saffron had to strip naked and pretty much ambush him and Nandi most definitely persued him, employing her fine rice wine and powers of seduction. Now why would two beautiful women have to go to such lengths to bed an unattached heterosexual man? Simple. IT'S BECAUSE HE'S IN LOVE WITH INARA. You can't just dismiss it. And you can't just turn Inara into a nasty little harpy or send her away as a means of "dealing with it". Doesn't matter if she's on the ship or not. She's on his mind and in his heart, as the movie makes perfectly clear. So I can see Mal sleeping with another woman, but falling in love out of the clear blue when he's carried such a torch for Inara for so long? Don't buy it.

And as for Mal/River, yeah. A lot of the Mal/River fic that I've attempted to read has Mal acting really immature, but then again, River usually acts like a child in them, so I guess that makes a kind of sense...

But the only way for Mal/River to work is if Inara is dead or gone, River is cured of her craziness, and is portrayed like an adult. AN ADULT. That's the key. I'll say it again: not flitting around like a whimsical pixie giggling and meddling. Cuz Mal's not going to bed a crazy teenager. I don't care how awesome her powers of perception are or how hot and limber she is. Mal's better than that. He's a man of honor, which is why we all love him, right? ... Which was the entire point of my original post...which I realize has gotten WAY off topic! LOL