Tehran Condemns 300

POSTED BY: Dayve
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 3, 2026 21:56
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DAYVE

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 3:20 PM

via Huff Po

Monsters And Critics | March 13, 2007 08:14 AM

Iran on Monday strongly condemned the US film company Warner Bros. over the allegedly 'anti-Iranian' blockbuster film 300.

Javad Shamqadri, art advisor to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, told Fars news agency that the film was an insult to Persian culture and in line with the American 'psychological war' against Iran.

Funny, I don't remember such a condemnation over the 1962 film version - 'The 300 Spartans'

from IMDb...
Essentially true story of how Spartan king Leonidis led an extremely small army of Greek Soldiers (300 of them his personal body guards from Sparta) to hold off an invading Persian army more than 20 times as large. The actual heroism of those who stood (and ultimately died) with Leonidis helped shape the course of Western Civilization, allowing the Greek city states time to organize an army which repelled the Persians. Set in 480 BC. Written by Jes Beard

(personally, i was more insulted by 'Ishtar')

SHINYED

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 3:56 PM

Pretty interesting, if not predictable, reaction from Iran. I'm waiting (not long) for the mullahs in Iran to issue one of their glorious fatwas and order the deaths of all those involved in the film. That would send Hollywood actors, writers, etc etc all scrambling & fleeing like Roman Polanski during a kiddie-porn raid at Nicholson's mansion....hey if it takes maniacal & demented religious sub-humans from Islam to shake up Hollywood degenerates...well it almost seems like a win-win.

GEEZER

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 6:05 PM

In a later update, Tehran has moved to sever all diplomatic relations with Sparta in response to their attack on peace-loving Persian invaders 2,487 years ago. Said President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, "Twenty Persians are the equal of one Spartan infidel any day. We see in this unbelievable tragedy the disguised hand of Bush - and his lapdog Blair."

"Keep the Shiny side up"

MALBADINLATIN

Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
peace-loving Persian invaders

Thanks Geezer! That'[s the funniest thing I've heard all day.

"You can believe your eyes...or you can believe me." -Groucho Marx

RUE

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 5:23 AM

The funniest criticism of "300" was written by Ken Turran. For one thing he said you could tell the Persians were the bad guys b/c they were portrayed as extremely effeminate and debauched. He also said the Spartans' leather gear looked like leather speedos and they looked like "unusually fit lifeguards marching in the Doo Dah parade".

Now THAT'S funny.

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 10:10 AM

Oh great. I've already seen it. Damn. NOW what am I suppose to do ?

I wish those mullahs would get their movie reviews out faster, so that way I can make my moview plans accordingly. Sheesh!

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

ARCLIGHT

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 11:56 AM

Good stuff, Geezer. However, you forgot to mention the film is the brain child of Richard Cheney and entirely funded by Haliburton.

CAUSAL

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
In a later update, Tehran has moved to sever all diplomatic relations with Sparta in response to their attack on peace-loving Persian invaders 2,487 years ago. Said President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, "Twenty Persians are the equal of one Spartan infidel any day. We see in this unbelievable tragedy the disguised hand of Bush - and his lapdog Blair."

*pfffft!*

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*gasp*

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

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CAUSAL

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dayve:
Essentially true story of how Spartan king Leonidis led an extremely small army of Greek Soldiers (300 of them his personal body guards from Sparta) to hold off an invading Persian army more than 20 times as large. The actual heroism of those who stood (and ultimately died) with Leonidis helped shape the course of Western Civilization, allowing the Greek city states time to organize an army which repelled the Persians. Set in 480 BC. Written by Jes Beard

Not to nitpick with IMDB, but the most conservative estimate of Xerxes' troop strength was 250,000. So Leonidas had 300 Sparatans and assorted others for a total of about 2,500 (Ernle Bradford, Thermopylae), which means he was outnumbered 100 to 1.

Guess that means Tehran will have to revise their press release.

________________________________________________________________________
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GEEZER

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:55 PM

Breaking news from our correspondent in Tehran.

Thanks, Bob. In a stunning development, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei has issued fatwas against the University of Michigan, Sylvester Stallone, and the town of Spartanburg, South Carolina in the United States. He stated, "By honoring the name of the Spartan infidels, these tools of evil insult our Persian fathers and our God. They must be struck down."

In a related story, state-controlled Iranian media is reporting that the weapons used by Leonidis and his Spartan terrorists are believed to have been supplied by Halliburton Corporation.

This may never get old.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

In a related story, state-controlled Iranian media is reporting that the weapons used by Leonidis and his Spartan terrorists are believed to have been supplied by Halliburton Corporation.

Huh? They didn't exist back then...is there a connection via family or something?

I don't get it Chrisisall

GEEZER

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 3:04 PM

And now, more on the Spartan/Halliburton connection.

Scholars at the University of Tehran have discovered that Halliburton Corporation is the continuation of a 3000 year old secret society dedicated to the destruction of the Persian people. According to Dr. Mozafar Bakhtiyar, faculty member of the Faculty of Literature and Humanities, the word "Halliburton" is a corruption of the society's name, "χασάπης των εισβολέων", Greek for "Butcher of Invaders".

This just in! the Grand High Counsel, the religious ruling body of Iran, has declared a Jihad or holy war, against Sparta. Military operations will commence immediately, once the Revolutionary Army's command structure finds Sparta on the map.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

DEEPGIRL187

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 3:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Breaking news from our correspondent in Tehran.

Thanks, Bob. In a stunning development, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei has issued fatwas against the University of Michigan, Sylvester Stallone, and the town of Spartanburg, South Carolina in the United States. He stated, "By honoring the name of the Spartan infidels, these tools of evil insult our Persian fathers and our God. They must be struck down."

As a hardcore U of M fan (except during basketball season), I take extreme offense at anyone even insinuating that their mascot is the Spartan. The correct term, if you please, is Wolverine. Spartans are for those infidels in Lansing (otherwise known as Michigan State).

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."

RUE

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:06 PM

Slick,

I keep waiting for the punch line ... are you going to get to it any time soon?

SHINYED

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 5:32 PM

Just released today..." In a stunning development related to the "300" story, the highest of highs...the magilla-mullah of Teheran, Iatoilet Khomaniac issued a belated fart-twat today calling for the death of all survivng members of the band A Flock Of Seagulls." It seems their 1982 hit "I Ran", with it's homosexual theme, is being heard there for the first time(thanks to free Iraqi radio stations) and has sent the muzzy-wuzzies of Iran into another one of their outraged epileptic, body-twitching fits of dementia and death. Fortunately,they at least have some form of recreation to enjoy after a long day of genuflecting and burning American flags & jumping up & down like horny toads.....they can always gang rape a young Muslim girl nearby, have HER tried and convicted of a crime against Sharia...followed by a mere 90 lashes from the whip....that's a real hoot in the zany world of Islam.

GEEZER

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
As a hardcore U of M fan (except during basketball season), I take extreme offense at anyone even insinuating that their mascot is the Spartan. The correct term, if you please, is Wolverine. Spartans are for those infidels in Lansing (otherwise known as Michigan State).

As noted in an earlier story, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei has declared a fatwa against the University of Michigan. In a later statement, he expanded this edict against Michigan State University, the actual home of the Spartans sports teams. Claiming that although a translation error had caused the original action against U of M, who are known as the Wolverines, he noted that the fatwa would remain in place since no fatwa removal forms had yet been printed.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

DEEPGIRL187

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:11 PM

Here ya go Geezer, go wild.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2007-03-13-300-iran_N.htm?csp
=34

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."

GEEZER

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Slick,

I keep waiting for the punch line ... are you going to get to it any time soon?

Maybe. Maybe not. Does there really have to be a punchline? If no one else has to constantly worry about the arrival of a punchline and you do, do you have an obsession? Have you sought treatment for this punchline obsession?

...and in FFF.net news, Rue checks into the Henny Youngman Clinic For the Seriously Un-funny for treatment of punchline obsession. Doctors are recommending a regimen of laugh tracks and rimshots.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Here ya go Geezer, go wild.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2007-03-13-300-iran_N.htm?csp
=34

I give up. You just can't beat the real thing.

Hey Rue. Check link this out. Here's your punchline.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

RUE

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:21 PM

You ARE making assumptions, aren't you. TSK TSK

What makes you think I 'constantly worry'? Do you have a problem projecting yourself onto others? Have you sought help for that delusional thinking?

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:25 PM

Geezer man, we don't always see eye to eye, but you so came up with the funny on here- I gotta hand it to ya!

Cracked-up Chrisisall

RUE

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:37 PM

Slick,

Is this the punchline?

"Even some American reviewers noted the political overtones of the West-against-Iran story line — and the way Persians are depicted as decadent, sexually flamboyant and evil in contrast to the noble Greeks."

Before Spartans are portrayed as uber-men in the heroic western mold I think people need to know Spartan men lived together in groups exclusively and never with women. And the men in those clubs had great sex with each other. The Spartans didn't have a whole lot of children who survived, thanks to their bizarre child-rearing practices. Because of that, and despite the massive use of slaves, the Spartan culture died out quite early. If ever a culture deserved the Darwin Award, it would be them.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:42 PM

"Sly" is the term.

Boy whore Chrisisall

GEEZER

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Slick,

Is this the punchline?

"Even some American reviewers noted the political overtones of the West-against-Iran story line — and the way Persians are depicted as decadent, sexually flamboyant and evil in contrast to the noble Greeks."

Yep. I've often thought that people who see political overtones in absolutely everything are pretty funny.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CAUSAL

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
You ARE making assumptions, aren't you. TSK TSK

What makes you think I 'constantly worry'? Do you have a problem projecting yourself onto others? Have you sought help for that delusional thinking?

Good Lord, Rue, can't we keep this crap in RWED? Geezer's just having a spot of fun is all.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

RUE

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:57 PM

Why do you keep posting in RWE? Can't you keep your crap out of it? No need to reply. Just having fun, is all.

Actually, my post was replying to Geezer's post:

"Does there really have to be a punchline? If no one else has to constantly worry about the arrival of a punchline and you do, do you have an obsession? Have you sought treatment for this punchline obsession?"

As I've mentioned before, I don't mind throwing it back.

CAUSAL

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 7:01 PM

As a proud Swiss-German American, I can tell that your rhetoric is obviously an insult against the proud heritage of...erm...makers of chocolate and clocks! There will be worldwide protests over this outrage, infidel!

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

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GEEZER

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 9:54 PM

Sorry, Casual.

I forgot that Rue doesn't hold with having the F-word

Select to view spoiler:

Fun

in RWED. We must be serious, very serious.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CAUSAL

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 10:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Before Spartans are portrayed as uber-men in the heroic western mold I think people need to know Spartan men lived together in groups exclusively and never with women. And the men in those clubs had great sex with each other. The Spartans didn't have a whole lot of children who survived, thanks to their bizarre child-rearing practices. Because of that, and despite the massive use of slaves, the Spartan culture died out quite early. If ever a culture deserved the Darwin Award, it would be them.

Quote:
Spartan marriage customs fascinated other Greeks, who knew so little about them anyway. ... In fact, in sexual matters, the Spartans, true to their conservative outlook in everything, seem to have had the highest rate of monogamy in all Greece. They undoubtably had a high respect for their women and regarded them as having a greater equality than the Oriental approach to be found in Ionia, Athens, or Corinth. Also, contrary to the attitude that might have been expected among a warrior caste, homosexuality seems to have been little known--quite unlike the Thebans in northern Greece who were to make a cult among their soldiers of coulples fighting side by side together, as in the infamous "Theban Band of Lovers."

From Thermopylae, by Ernle Bradford, Da Capo, 1980.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

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CAUSAL

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 10:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Sorry, Casual.

I forgot that Rue doesn't hold with having the F-word
Select to view spoiler:
Fun
in RWED. We must be serious, very serious.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Listen, next time you post something like this, you better put a "humor" warning on it. I do not enjoy shooting milk out my nose.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

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KHYRON

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 10:39 PM

I find it pretty strange how in one thread Rue vehemently opposes Coulter for calling somebody a "faggot", and here she dismisses an entire culture as a bunch homosexuals who didn't know how to raise children.

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

CAUSAL

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 10:48 PM

Mmmm...delicious irony...

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FUTUREMRSFILLION

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 10:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
I find it pretty strange how in one thread Rue vehemently opposes Coulter for calling somebody a "faggot", and here she dismisses an entire culture as a bunch homosexuals who didn't know how to raise children.

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

Well the facts seem to be in her favor - Spartans could marry at 20 but could not live with their families until after they left military service. Boys started military training as 6 or 7 year olds and babies that were deemed unfit or boys that didn't seem to fit the ideal of the warrior were left to die on the side of a mountain.

Sounds to me like a whole bunch of men living together in CLOSE proximity and ummmmm not real good parenting skills.

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"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 10:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Before Spartans are portrayed as uber-men in the heroic western mold I think people need to know Spartan men lived together in groups exclusively and never with women. And the men in those clubs had great sex with each other. The Spartans didn't have a whole lot of children who survived, thanks to their bizarre child-rearing practices. Because of that, and despite the massive use of slaves, the Spartan culture died out quite early. If ever a culture deserved the Darwin Award, it would be them.

Quote:
Spartan marriage customs fascinated other Greeks, who knew so little about them anyway. ... In fact, in sexual matters, the Spartans, true to their conservative outlook in everything, seem to have had the highest rate of monogamy in all Greece. They undoubtably had a high respect for their women and regarded them as having a greater equality than the Oriental approach to be found in Ionia, Athens, or Corinth. Also, contrary to the attitude that might have been expected among a warrior caste, homosexuality seems to have been little known--quite unlike the Thebans in northern Greece who were to make a cult among their soldiers of coulples fighting side by side together, as in the infamous "Theban Band of Lovers."

From Thermopylae, by Ernle Bradford, Da Capo, 1980.

________________________________________________________________________
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Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

Causal - Quoting Thermopylae does not help your postion - it even states that little is known about Spartan society. This person is making statements based on opinion not verifiable fact.

----
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I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

CAUSAL

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 11:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Causal - Quoting Thermopylae does not help your postion - it even states that little is known about Spartan society. This person is making statements based on opinion not verifiable fact.

Actually, please read the quote more carefully. It says the other Greeks knew very little about Spartan culture--not that little is known about them by anyone at all. In fact, there is a great deal of historical data available on Sparta and Spartan culture. I'm sure that Mr. Bradford, as an historian specializing on Mediterranean military history, would have known and used those sources, and because of that, I'm pretty sure that referencing his book exactly helps my position.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited to add: what historical sources has Rue offered? Seems that Rue is just making the assumption that military men living in barracks can't keep their hands off each other. At least I referenced the work of a scholar.

Re-edited to add: when did this thread go from funny to snarky? Oh, wait, we're in RWED, where people disagree with each on the basis of who the other person is, not the argument they're making. Maybe we should petition Haken to change the name of the forum to "Real World Ad Hominem."

Re-edited to add: it was fun while it lasted, Geezer. Next time, post this sort of thing in Talk Story!
________________________________________________________________________
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AURAPTOR

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 11:54 PM

As a 2nd thought, I wonder if this gives the Hollywood elites any pause for concern. I mean, THEY are the ones the mullahs would behead first, if given half a chance.

Are they SURE they don't want to support the GOP?

I'm just sayin'.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Thursday, March 15, 2007 12:46 AM

Khyron,

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
I find it pretty strange how in one thread Rue vehemently opposes Coulter for calling somebody a "faggot", and here she dismisses an entire culture as a bunch homosexuals who didn't know how to raise children.

Not really. The 'gay' thing is not my issue. I was hoping to prevent any shock on the part of people who view the Spartans as 'manly men' in the Western mold. And they weren't 'gay' in the modern Western sense either. Their culture was completely different from ours.
And you won't find 'gay', 'faggot', or any sexual perjorative term in my post. That's YOUR interpretation, probably based on your own homophobia. Oh, and ingnorance. Can't forget the ignorance, either.

The problem they had in their culture, as I indicated, was they didn't have that many children actually survive. They literally put 'imperfect' children out to die in large numbers. For the ones that weren't put out to die, their boys were raised in packs by older boys out in the wilds. At a young age, 3 or 4, they were put out in the mountains with, I believe, one cloak. Either those packs of boys found them or the other way around. They lived severely deprived lives in the hills with no shelter, food or clothing beyond what they could get for themselves. They were expected to be self-sufficient from then on, or die. (Though thieving was a lesson they were supposed to learn.) That's what caused their decline and was a key "Darwin Award" feature of their culture.

If they survived childhood they were put through severe physical tests. If they survived those they were admitted into male communal homes, where they lived the rest of their lives (with brief visits to the wife).

Just to reiterate what I said, since you seemed to have missed understanding the big words:
Before Spartans are portrayed as uber-men in the heroic western mold I think people need to know Spartan men lived together in groups exclusively and never with women. And the men in those clubs had great sex with each other. The Spartans didn't have a whole lot of children who survived, thanks to their bizarre child-rearing practices. Because of that, and despite the massive use of slaves, the Spartan culture died out quite early. If ever a culture deserved the Darwin Award, it would be them.

GEEZER

Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Just to reiterate what I said, since you seemed to have missed understanding the big words:
Before Spartans are portrayed as uber-men in the heroic western mold...

Err, Rue. It was you who first referred to the Spartans as "Uber-men in the heroic western mold". The rest of us were just making fun of the Iranians. BTW, I got no problem with gay men being heroic. Why do you?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

JASONZZZ

Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:46 AM

The problem is that your particular phrasing misleads the reader into the understanding that your "aversion" to homosexuality leads to the conclusion that you believe they shouldn't be cast as archetype for "proud warriors" and rather in fact you are glad they no longer exist as part of the human race.

I am not sure if further padding (or perhaps some needed "back-paddling" on your part) your response leads me to think otherwise. Your description of those selected parts of their culture sounds on the level to what I remember, but I am not sure how judging them with today's standards of morality and any other ruler deserves them to be cast out of the human gene pool.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

Just to reiterate what I said, since you seemed to have missed understanding the big words:
Before Spartans are portrayed as uber-men in the heroic western mold I think people need to know Spartan men lived together in groups exclusively and never with women. And the men in those clubs had great sex with each other. The Spartans didn't have a whole lot of children who survived, thanks to their bizarre child-rearing practices. Because of that, and despite the massive use of slaves, the Spartan culture died out quite early. If ever a culture deserved the Darwin Award, it would be them.

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RUE

Thursday, March 15, 2007 2:07 AM

Slick,

B/c the Iranians were made into the 'bad guys' by casting them as effeminate and debauched. And the Spartans, the 'goods guys', were by contrast cast into the prototype heroic western mold. Which historically they don't fit.

RUE

Thursday, March 15, 2007 2:14 AM

"The problem is that your particular phrasing misleads the reader into the understanding that your "aversion" to homosexuality leads to the conclusion that you believe they shouldn't be cast as archetype for "proud warriors" and rather in fact you are glad they no longer exist as part of the human race."

Hunh??? No misleading. I said exactly what I meant. You just need to R-E-A-D _ T-H-E _ W-O-R-D-S I wrote.

"I am not sure if further padding (or perhaps some needed "back-paddling" on your part) your response leads me to think otherwise. Your description of those selected parts of their culture sounds on the level to what I remember, but I am not sure how judging them with today's standards of morality and any other ruler deserves them to be cast out of the human gene pool."

I didn't add or subtract anything from my first post when I quoted it. No padding or back-paddling at all. You just need to read my words literally.

And, btw, evolution's tool is transmitting on your charcteristics to the next generation ad infinitum. The culture that literally dies out has failed in the most basic way possible. That's not a moral judgement.

CAUSAL

Thursday, March 15, 2007 2:19 AM

You know, I'd love to see some research. I've done a bit, and some of what you're saying is close to being right, but none of it is exactly right. For instance: yes, city elders examined infants and discarded small and deformed ones. But your term "in large numbers" is ambiguous--large numbers in comparison to what? And is that large numbers in a year? A month? Over the course of their civilization? At any rate, they lasted as a dominant power for about three hundred years (roughly from 630 BCE to around 300 BCE), so their program of abandoning infants didn't deplete their numbers as seriously as you're making out. In addition, Bradford (same book as before) describes boys being taken from their mothers at seven or eight to begin their military training (suggesting that they didn't roam in wild packs of boys up to that point). And a Spartan man was in active military service (and hence in the barracks) from twenty to thirty, at which he became essential a reserve soldier and could leave the barracks to live with his family.

Now, here's the difference: I've done my research; I can reference scholars who've written on the subject. You, on the other hand, are getting mad on behalf of Iran (odd choice, but hey, it's yours to make) because you feel that the movie has some cultural/political overtones that even the director has said he didn't intend. So to discredit the movie, you're throwing out bold assertions about Spartan life and culture--but it seems obvious that you haven't really done any research on the subject at all. If all you really want to do is insult Geezer, whose intention, I believe, was to provide a moment of levity, then carry on (though I think it's safe to say most of us wish you wouldn't). But if, on the other hand, you're going to try to speak authoritatively about historical matters, you're going to have to do one hell of a lot better in your scholarship and your argumentation than you've done up to this point.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited to add: they never died out the way you seem to think so. Check a map: there's still an inhabited city of Sparta to this day. What they did do was lose influence in Greece and so declined from their former position of dominance (like all great powers must).

________________________________________________________________________
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RUE

Thursday, March 15, 2007 2:29 AM

Causal,

Here is some information gleaned from the internet. (It is the most easily posted.) I was actually accurate with nearly all of it.

-----------------

http://www.pbs.org/empires/thegreeks/educational/lesson1.html

Social Structure of Sparta:
Three classes: Spartiates (military professionals who lived mostly in barracks and whose land was farmed by serfs; they served in the army and could vote).

Perioeci or "neighbors/outsiders" who were freemen; they included artisans, craftsmen, merchants; they could not vote or serve in the army; foreigners could be in this class.

Helots (serfs descended from those peoples who had resisted subjugation by Sparta and who were constantly rebelling. They were treated like slaves and gave 1/2 of their produce to the Spartiate citizens who owned the land.)

Boys: Boys were taken from parents at age seven and trained in the art of warfare. They were only give a cloak - no shoes or other clothes, and not enough food so they had to steal (to learn survival skills). At age 20 they were placed into higher ranks of the military. To age 30 they were dedicated to the state; then they could marry but still lived in barracks with other soldiers.

The men lived most of their lives in military barracks.

---------------------

I got the age wrong where they were set out into the hills, but the rest right.

As to 'how many' children were set out to die from exposure, it was enough that the particular cliff has the bones of thousands of infacts at its bottom. (I'll have to find the source for that.)

-------------------

I didn't just post cause of Slick, I had and have sources of information as well. Now your sources and my sources may not say the same thing. But my posts are, as usual, researched and fact-based. And my sources are credible.

CAUSAL

Thursday, March 15, 2007 2:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Boys: Boys were taken from parents at age seven and trained in the art of warfare. They were only give a cloak - no shoes or other clothes, and not enough food so they had to steal (to learn survival skills).

It sounds like you're confusing two separate things. The military training all Spartan male children received was given in the agoge. They were trained from the age of 7 or 8 until about the late teens. The conditions were harsh, but not brutal. They did have to scrounge for food, but not because they weren't given any at all, just not enough. During this period they lived with the other trainees--not in comfort, for sure, but also not on the streets or in the wilderness.

The other thing that you seem to describe is called the crypteia. But it wasn't as barbarous as you're describing. Participation in the crypteia was limited to the most promising young trainees, those who had leadership potential. They were sent out into the countryside basically to fend for themselves, but also to keep an eye on the helots (in typically Spartan brutal way) who the Spartiates worried might be prone to insurrection if they weren't controlled.

Quote:
At age 20 they were placed into higher ranks of the military. To age 30 they were dedicated to the state; then they could marry but still lived in barracks with other soldiers.

The men lived most of their lives in military barracks.

Actually, because the Spartans didn't expand their population through colonial expansion, as did the other Greek poleis, the Spartans took marriage very seriously. They were expected to marry immediately after the crypteia period, which would put them in their late teens or early twenties. Spartan culture placed such a high premium on reproduction (which was strictly limited to married couples) that unmarried men were shunned during public ceremonies, and, in some case, not allowed to take part at all. In addition, while it is true that Spartan men were "dedicated to the state" for a period, it only lasted 10 years: from a man's twenties to his thirties. During this period he lived in the barracks, not with his family. After the age of thirty, a Spartan man was still expected to be available for military service (though in a "reserve" capacity) and so was free to live with his family, rather than in barracks.

Quote:
As to 'how many' children were set out to die fromn exposure, it was enough that the particular cliff has the bones of thousands of infacts at its bottom. (I'll have to find the source for that.)

That sounds like something you might have picked up from the movie (which was, obviously, not a accurate depiction of the reality of the situation). In any event, I'm sure predators and scavengers made off with the remains long before there was a chance for the bones of "thousands of infants" to collect. That's dramatic and everything, but I'm not convinced that it's the case.

Quote:

I didn't just post cause of Slick

I wish you would give him the courtesy of calling him by his name, instead of this demeaning nickname (that no one else bothers to use, anyway). Calling him “Slick” just isn't very nice, and it doesn’t seem to promote open dialogue, nor a friendly atmosphere on these boards.

Quote:
I had and have sources of information as well. Now your sources and my sources may not say the same thing. But my posts are, as usual, researched and fact-based. And my sources are credible.

Well, no question, historians disagree about what’s actually the case over their interpretation of the evidence. But my trouble isn’t so much that you have different sources than me. My trouble is that you seem to post without doing very much research first. This can lead to basic factual errors that could have been avoided given proper antecedent research.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, a

RUE

Thursday, March 15, 2007 2:49 AM

Hey Causal,

I have to get on with life. So I'll check back tomorrow for your post.

SOUPCATCHER

Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Quote:

I didn't just post cause of Slick

I wish you would give him the courtesy of calling him by his name, instead of this demeaning nickname (that no one else bothers to use, anyway). Calling him “Slick” just isn't very nice, and it doesn’t seem to promote open dialogue, nor a friendly atmosphere on these boards.

Actually, I appreciate the nickname Slick. Geezer is a master at moving the topic to exactly where he wants it to be. It's pretty impressive. I remember long ago discussions where I've gone back and forth with Geezer and realized he'd manuevered me all over the map and I was so busy playing catch-up that I never did get to make that point I wanted to make. Slick works.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Re-edited to add: when did this thread go from funny to snarky? Oh, wait, we're in RWED, where people disagree with each on the basis of who the other person is, not the argument they're making. Maybe we should petition Haken to change the name of the forum to "Real World Ad Hominem."

Rue is one of those types that can’t find anything funny unless it involves some derogatory comment about Bush.

Frankly, I was enjoying Geezer’s witty remarks. I was actually thinking of joining in the fun. Something scathing about how Alexander conquered the entire Persian Empire and some in less then ten years, while the Persians spent 150 years getting their collective butts kicked out of Greece on successive invasions. But then it occurred to me that the Spartans actually weren’t involved in that particularly Greek exploit. And the mood seems to have passed anyway.

Spartans were not big players in the homoerotic camp like many other Greeks, but most Greeks didn’t accept it nearly as much as some people today want to believe. There was no wide consensus among classical Greek City-states. In some cities it was acceptable, but in others it was not. And you have to draw a distinction between homosexuality and homoeroticism. Homosexuality was not widely accepted in the classical Greco-Roman world at all. Homoeroticism, on the other hand was acceptable in certain places. Probably not Sparta as much as other Greek cities. However, this was almost universally limited to pederasty, not sex between adults, which was far more likely to be viewed contemptuously by most Greek societies, even those that were open to the idea of sexual pederasty. So homoeroticism between soldiers of the same age was probably not generally considered acceptable by Greek, particularly Lakodaemon, societies. It seems clear to me that it happened, but I’m sure that it happens in modern militaries as well. Contemporary references by Xenophon explicitly denying it occurred, says to me that it wasn’t acceptable regardless of whether it was happening or not. Now it may have been more common among Spartan soldiers then among modern US infantry today (it’s hard to quantify that) but to attempt to elevate that to a homosexual tendency defining the Spartan military society is a gross misunderstanding of the Lakodaemon culture and Greek culture in general, and probably says more about the desires of certain modern social political ideas then ancient Spartan/Lakodaemon military culture.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

6IXSTRINGJACK

Thursday, March 15, 2007 4:34 AM

Sorry. I misread the title. I thought somebody was giving away free condoms.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

KHYRON

Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
And you won't find 'gay', 'faggot', or any sexual perjorative term in my post.

Of course not, I wasn't implying that there was, just pointing out what seems to be a double-standard on your part. I quoted the word "faggot" not because you said it, but because Coulter said it and I didn't want to leave it unquoted because then it would seem like I was saying it.

Quote:
That's YOUR interpretation, probably based on your own homophobia. Oh, and ingnorance. Can't forget the ignorance, either.

Yes, I disagree with what you said, therefore I must be a homophobic ignorant fool. Very good, glad we established that.

Quote:
Just to reiterate what I said, since you seemed to have missed understanding the big words:

I do tend to struggle with those big two- and three-syllable words you use, but I promise to concentrate this time.

Quote:
Before Spartans are portrayed as uber-men in the heroic western mold I think people need to know Spartan men lived together in groups exclusively and never with women. And the men in those clubs had great sex with each other. The Spartans didn't have a whole lot of children who survived, thanks to their bizarre child-rearing practices. Because of that, and despite the massive use of slaves, the Spartan culture died out quite early. If ever a culture deserved the Darwin Award, it would be them.

Boy, that sure gave me a headache. That last sentence alone made me grab the dictionary six times! But did I get your drift this time?

Clearly homosexuality wasn't as frowned upon back in those days as it is in contemprary society and for that reason it was probably more common, but what you said, and especially the way you said it, sounds like something PN would say. It's intentionally divisive and not backed up by anything I've ever read on the topic.

As for weeding out the weakest, it's an example of artificial selection. We do the same with domesticated animals all the time and it seems to work - it's not nice when applied in human societies, but, speaking objectively, a society should become stronger because of it. Unless they got rid of almost all of the next generation, which seems very unlikely.

Regarding the thousands of infant skeletons thing, if that's true, the Spartans were around for centuries, so that number may be high in absolute terms but definitely not high enough to justify saying they eradicated themselves. Spartans liked warfare, and in a lot of wars thousands of people can get killed in a day, yet you don't argue along these lines, you'd rather use an emotionally manipulative argument for their demise such as 'baby-killers' than one that would make slightly more sense.

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

GEEZER

Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
Actually, I appreciate the nickname Slick. Geezer is a master at moving the topic to exactly where he wants it to be.

Sort of like in this thread, where everyone was having good clean fun ragging on the Iranians until I came in and got all snarky about the Spartans. No. Wait. That was Rue.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Thursday, March 15, 2007 12:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Slick,

B/c the Iranians were made into the 'bad guys' by casting them as effeminate and debauched. And the Spartans, the 'goods guys', were by contrast cast into the prototype heroic western mold. Which historically they don't fit.

Rue, it's an action movie, not a scholarly critique of Spartan vs. Persian culture. Sheesh.

The current Iranian reaction, on the other hand, is a hoot.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CAUSAL

Thursday, March 15, 2007 12:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Spartans were not big players in the homoerotic camp like many other Greeks, but most Greeks didn’t accept it nearly as much as some people today want to believe. There was no wide consensus among classical Greek City-states.

Well, and there's the whole thing, I think. There was no "Greece" in 480 BCE the way there is today. That is, there was no united nation-state. Heck, the nation-state concept didn't even develop for another 2,000 years! Instead, you had lots of little poleis that shared a language (albeit with dialectical differences)(is "dialectical" a word? Meh.). Those little poleis also shared some common cultural elements, but not nearly as much as we like to assume. To other Greek, poleis, the Spartans were exceedingly strange, because they were more different than most!

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

HERO

Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Well, and there's the whole thing, I think. There was no "Greece" in 480 BCE the way there is today.

Obviously you never read Plato's most famous dialogue:

Summer lovin' had me a blast
Summer lovin', happened so fast
I met a girl crazy for me
I met a boy, cute as can be

Summer days driftin' away,
To uh-oh those summer nights
Tell me more, tell me more,
Did you get very far?
Tell me more, tell me more,
Like, does he have a car?

She swam by me, she got a cramp
He went by me, got my suit damp
I saved her life, she nearly drowned
He showed off, splashing around
Summer sun, something's begun,
But uh-oh those summer nights

Tell me more, tell me more,
Was it love at first sight?
Tell me more, tell me more,
Did she put up a fight?
Took her bowlin' in the Arcade
We went strollin', drank lemonade
We made out under the dock
we stayed up until ten o'clock

Summer fling don't mean a thing,
But uh-oh those summer nights
Tell me more, tell me more,
But you don't gotta brag
Tell me more, tell me more,
Cause he sounds like a drag

He got friendly, holdin' my hand
Well she got friendly, down in the sand
He was sweet, just turned eighteen
Well she was good, you know what I mean

Summer heat, boy and girl meet,
But uh-oh those summer nights
Tell me more, tell me more,
How much dough did he spend?
Tell me more, tell me more,
Could she get me a friend?

It turned colder, that's where it ends
So I told her we'd still be friends
Then we made our true love vow
Wonder what she's doin' now

Summer dreams ripped at the seams,
But oh, those summer nights

**********************

I'm just sayin...

H

RIVERISMYGODDESS

Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:45 PM

I am not getting into any discussion you might be having about politics or history or the movie or whatever, I just wanted to say that every time I see this thread's title, my brain translates it as:

Tehran Condoms 300

RUE

Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:46 PM

Causal,

I'll reply later when I get more time.

RUE

Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:48 PM

Slick et al

Let's see. If I find Slick's posts funny I'm allowed to comment on them. If I don't, then I'm not allowed to comment. Are those the rules? I just want to know.

I did post a reference to something about the movies I thought was truly funny, and that was Ken Turan's review in the LA Times. Among other things he said the Spartans (in something like leather speedos) looked like unusually fit lifeguards participating in the Doo Dah Parade. Now, he REALLY knows how to do insults. There was a lot of other funny stuff in there for anyone who's interested.

CAUSAL

Thursday, March 15, 2007 4:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Slick et al

Let's see. If I find Slick's posts funny I'm allowed to comment on them. If I don't, then I'm not allowed to comment. Are those the rules? I just want to know.

Well, no, obviously, those aren't the rules. But Geezer was having a bit of fun. He was making light of the Iranian reaction to 300 (which, you've got to admit, is pretty ridiculous). And so we're all in here goading him on and having a grand old time of it. So it was kind of a bummer to have our fun spoiled by an attack on both Geezer and the film itself. So of course, you're allowed to post, but heavens, nobody likes a wet blanket! If you'd wanted to discuss the issue in a serious way (which at this point, of course, we're already there) you could've always started a new thread instead hijacking this one. But meh--we got to discuss history, and that's almost as fun as laughing.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Thursday, March 15, 2007 4:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Causal - Quoting Thermopylae does not help your postion - it even states that little is known about Spartan society. This person is making statements based on opinion not verifiable fact.

Actually, please read the quote more carefully. It says the other Greeks knew very little about Spartan culture--not that little is known about them by anyone at all. In fact, there is a great deal of historical data available on Sparta and Spartan culture. I'm sure that Mr. Bradford, as an historian specializing on Mediterranean military history, would have known and used those sources, and because of that, I'm pretty sure that referencing his book exactly helps my position.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited to add: what historical sources has Rue offered? Seems that Rue is just making the assumption that military men living in barracks can't keep their hands off each other. At least I referenced the work of a scholar.

Re-edited to add: when did this thread go from funny to snarky? Oh, wait, we're in RWED, where people disagree with each on the basis of who the other person is, not the argument they're making. Maybe we should petition Haken to change the name of the forum to "Real World Ad Hominem."

Re-edited to add: it was fun while it lasted, Geezer. Next time, post this sort of thing in Talk Story!
________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

Why is someone disagreeing with you snarky? When I get snarky - you will know it.

----
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

CAUSAL

Thursday, March 15, 2007 4:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Why is someone disagreeing with you snarky? When I get snarky - you will know it.

So sorry, FMF, if you thought I was calling you snarky! I totally wasn't talking about you. I was referring to...well, to others on the boards. Also, sorry if my post was a bit harsh in tone. I get tetchy when my scholarship is criticized; sorry if I over-reacted.

After all, I'm angling for the title "Bearer of Baked Goods" so I better not get on your bad side!

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

JASONZZZ

Thursday, March 15, 2007 5:10 PM

Don't forget 'stylistic', man especially that scene with the Oracle of Delphi. I don't just mean that it was dripping with sexuality, the "liquid" styling reminded me of a lot of the fanzine posters - except it was moving and writhing right in front of my eyes on a 25 foot tall screen.

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Rue, it's an action movie, not a scholarly critique of Spartan vs. Persian culture. Sheesh.

The current Iranian reaction, on the other hand, is a hoot.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs new equipment to keep the site shiny. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283
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Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.

JASONZZZ

Thursday, March 15, 2007 5:12 PM

yeah, I don't think it really matters whether the rules are there or not. You and pretty much most everyone else will continue to do what they will.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Slick et al

Let's see. If I find Slick's posts funny I'm allowed to comment on them. If I don't, then I'm not allowed to comment. Are those the rules? I just want to know.

Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs new equipment to keep the site shiny. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13317#185514

Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.

RUE

Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:26 PM

To recap, here was the exchange

Quote:
Slick: In a later update, Tehran has moved to sever all diplomatic relations with Sparta in response to their attack on peace-loving Persian invaders 2,487 years ago. ..."

Now, I happened to think the post was heavy handed, lame, and not actually funny. So I posted

Quote:
Rue: The funniest criticism of "300" was written by Ken Turran. ... the Spartans' leather gear looked like leather speedos and they looked like "unusually fit lifeguards marching in the Doo Dah parade".
Now THAT'S funny.

Well, Slick seemed to be enjoying his own humor so much he continued on.

Quote:
Slick: Breaking news from our correspondent in Tehran.
Thanks, Bob. In a stunning development ... blah blah blah
This may never get old.

Since I STILL didn't find it funny, I posted

Quote:
Rue: Slick,
I keep waiting for the punch line ... are you going to get to it any time soon?

At which point Slick decided to get personal and attack me.

Quote:
Slick: Maybe. Maybe not. Does there really have to be a punchline? If no one else has to constantly worry about the arrival of a punchline and you do, do you have an obsession? Have you sought treatment for this punchline obsession?

MY comments were topical and apolitical. I didn't attack anyone. In fact it was Slick who posted the link to the 'political overtones' of the film and brought up the topic. Something I might add he has attacked ME for. And which YOU ALL accept at face value. Slick's good at this kind of thing, so you really do need to go back and check facts. Something you all seem to be very bad at doing.

Anyway, I need to go back to work. More later.

GEEZER

Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:55 PM

And in enertainment news, Sylvester Stallone, who played tough cop John Spartan in the Sci-fi/action adventure Demolition Man, has taken issue with recent slanderous allegations against the Spartan people and issued a personal challenge to left-wing web-pundit Rue. Said Mr. Stallone, "Meet me outside Spagos, Rue, and I'll show you Uber-man." The humor-challenged liberal commentator and sometimes stalker has not yet issued a reply. More as it occurs.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

JASONZZZ

Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:12 PM

*Ding Dong*

(peeps out the peephole)

hmmm... no one there...

Well, somebody rang the bell...

Hello? Hello?

Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs new equipment to keep the site shiny. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283
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Given the freedom to do so, anarchy will result in an organic organization unto itself.

JKIDDO

Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:25 PM

You know Geezer, I'm actually in agreement with your statement It just seems a bit strange to me that folks who are so upset by her method {"joking"}of demeaning her targets would use those same methods to demean her. If you got a problem with her, act rational, don't act like what you hate. Well said!

But now you're just acting mean-spirited and hostile.

www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=27407

GEEZER

Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JKiddo:
You know Geezer, I'm actually in agreement with your statement It just seems a bit strange to me that folks who are so upset by her method {"joking"}of demeaning her targets would use those same methods to demean her. If you got a problem with her, act rational, don't act like what you hate. Well said!

But now you're just acting mean-spirited and hostile.

Err, "Joking" wasn't the method that bothered me, obviously. Comparing someone to an unfairly oppressed minority was. Unless you consider liberals, pundits, or stalkers unfairly oppressed?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CAUSAL

Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:41 PM

Yeah! Geezer! Recapture that magic!!

Plus, I love her recap--better watch that slant, though, it's a doozy. That thing should come with a warning label and its own zip code.
________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, March 16, 2007 12:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverIsMyGoddess:
my brain translates it as:

Tehran Condoms 300

HA! I'm not the only one.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

JKIDDO

Friday, March 16, 2007 12:18 AM

Quote:
Err, "Joking" wasn't the method that bothered me

But all that stuff about bathing in virgin's blood and being a vampire (or was it a werewold... I forget)... they were jokes, man! And yeah, they bothered you.

So why don't you go back to being the reasonable fellow that I think you are and stop being so mean.

RUE

Friday, March 16, 2007 1:55 AM

Slick,

Better keep your day job.

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
And in enertainment news, Sylvester Stallone, who played tough cop John Spartan in the Sci-fi/action adventure Demolition Man, has taken issue with recent slanderous allegations against the Spartan people and issued a personal challenge to left-wing web-pundit Rue. Said Mr. Stallone, "Meet me outside Spagos, Rue, and I'll show you Uber-man." The humor-challenged liberal commentator and sometimes stalker has not yet issued a reply. More as it occurs.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Friday, March 16, 2007 2:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Slick,

Better keep your day job.

I'm retired. My day job is to make fun of stuck-up killjoys. I think I do it pretty well.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

RUE

Friday, March 16, 2007 2:13 AM

Causal

You are getting as biased as Slick. There was no spin, the ellipses were there to save space. You had no problems figuring out what I was refering to, did you? So, up until Slick decided to attack me personally, show me where I did anything but say his jokes weren't funny. Am I not allowed an opinion? Show me where I attacked anyone, let alone Slick. Show me where I did anything but respond to the topic of the thread. Please. In detail.

RUE

Friday, March 16, 2007 2:14 AM

Slick,

Not really.

Quote:
I'm retired. My day job is to make fun of stuck-up killjoys. I think I do it pretty well.

GEEZER

Friday, March 16, 2007 2:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Slick,

Not really.
Quote:
I'm retired. My day job is to make fun of stuck-up killjoys. I think I do it pretty well.

Yeah. I'd assume a stuck-up killjoy would feel that way. Please go and rain on someone else's parade for a while.

Meanwhile, the Iranian response to "300" continues to be funny.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, March 16, 2007 2:54 AM

I feel good now. I see that when I take a step back and just watch for a while, ya'all go and tear each other apart. For a while there I was thinking it was just me.

Keep flyin' playas

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

CAUSAL

Friday, March 16, 2007 3:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
I'm retired. My day job is to make fun of stuck-up killjoys. I think I do it pretty well.

Hear, Hear!

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

RUE

Friday, March 16, 2007 4:07 AM

Well Causal, you've joined the ranks of the assholes. Good for you.

YINYANG

Friday, March 16, 2007 5:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dayve:
via Huff Po

Monsters And Critics | March 13, 2007 08:14 AM

Iran on Monday strongly condemned the US film company Warner Bros. over the allegedly 'anti-Iranian' blockbuster film 300.

Javad Shamqadri, art advisor to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, told Fars news agency that the film was an insult to Persian culture and in line with the American 'psychological war' against Iran.

Funny, I don't remember such a condemnation over the 1962 film version - 'The 300 Spartans'

from IMDb...
Essentially true story of how Spartan king Leonidis led an extremely small army of Greek Soldiers (300 of them his personal body guards from Sparta) to hold off an invading Persian army more than 20 times as large. The actual heroism of those who stood (and ultimately died) with Leonidis helped shape the course of Western Civilization, allowing the Greek city states time to organize an army which repelled the Persians. Set in 480 BC. Written by Jes Beard

(personally, i was more insulted by 'Ishtar')

Difference of two cultures. Sure, it's odd for us, because we understand that this is a movie from comic book land, and nothing more - but Iran may as well be a whole different planet (or not: I don't know a lot about Iran, just going off what I've seen and heard). I'm not saying I think that they'll nuke us for this movie, but that perhaps looking at it from a different perspective wouldn't be a bad thing.

It's like this bizarre article I read, called "A Lesson in Hate."

http://www.smithsonianmagazine.com/issues/2006/february/presence.php

Quote:
[...] Some biographical sketches suggest that Qutb arrived with a benign view of America, but if that’s true it didn’t last long. During a short stay in Washington, D.C., he witnessed the commotion surrounding an elevator accident and was stunned to hear other onlookers making a joke of the victim’s appearance. From this and a few offhand remarks in other settings, Qutb concluded that Americans suffered from “a drought of sentimental sympathy” and that “Americans intentionally deride what people in the Old World hold sacred.”

This became the lens through which Qutb read nearly every American encounter—a clash of New World versus Old. Qutb easily satisfied the requirements at the graduate school of the Colorado State College of Education (now known as the University of Northern Colorado) and devoted the rest of his time to his true interest—the American soul, if such a thing existed. “This great America: What is its worth in the scale of human values?” Qutb wondered. “And what does it add to the moral account of humanity?” His answer: nothing. [...]

Not that Iran's reaction isn't still unwarranted - or that I think you should stop making jokes (after all, it's not like you're in Iran saying these things, or that your words here, in this thread, have any weight at all, really). If it's amused you, fine. It's just something to think about now that we're being serious [not like I think anyone's gonna really stop with the Rue vs. Geezer - which in my mind is funnier than the stuff before that ($50 on Rue) - long enough to care about what I have to say, or that I'll have conveyed my meaning well enough, which is why I mostly lurk around these piranha waters].

DECAF

Friday, March 16, 2007 8:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

I'm retired. My day job is to make fun of stuck-up killjoys. I think I do it pretty well.

While I like the descriptiveness, I think we should rely on the more general term here. Rue is a heckler. If a stand-up comic tells a joke, the appropriate responses are to laugh, or not to laugh. If it is too offensive to take, you walk out. Those are the rules, but since we're in "no one can hurt me" land here on the internet, hecklers are free to look for places to cause a ruckus and feel important.

In case the parallel eludes you, what happens when a heckler starts up? The comic gets dragged off track and suddenly it becomes an argument between the two of them, the routine left aside, much to 99.9% of the audience's chagrin. The comic sees that and tries to get back into the flow of things, but the heckler won't let him. Either the heckler has to get tired of being an ass, or the comic walks off stage in frustration. I could be off base on this, but it sounds awfully familiar.

I'm just thankful Geezer didn't pull a Kramer :)

_________________________________
"The probability that we may fail in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just."
- Abraham Lincoln

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, March 16, 2007 9:00 AM

Yinyang:

Kinda funny you mention this article here. Even funnier are my emotions about reading it. When I see someone openly critisizing the American way of life my first instinct, naturally, is to get defensive. Yet at the same time I do sympathize with Qutb's point of view here. I don't hide the fact that I think the world would be much better off if 90% of the population were just gone when I woke up tomorrow morning. The very fact that this story is printed and read and passed around, especially I'm guessing, by and between Anti-Americans, including Communists, die-hard brainwashed Liberals as well as "One-World" thinking Masonic Repuglicans, among others, is nothing more than an attempt to make everybody, including American's, hate America even more, ultimately weakening it to the point that China or Russia or who ever wants to have it can just roll over us.

Yet, at the same time, I've argued to people for years that this war is bullshit and who the hell are we to call anyone else evil? I look around me in any direction here and I see families falling apart (including my own which pretty much exploded in the last 2 years), infidelity, lies, amorality, hate, intolerance and everybody thinking they know what's good for you and they're doing things such as making sure that you take your pills and shots and can't afford to smoke.... Who the fuck are these people anyways? Let he who is free from sin cast the first stone. That's what I thought dickwads.

This is what I'm supposed to be happy about giving the rest of the world? A legacy for their children, devoid of religion and morals and rife with blood gore sex and MTV? Don't get me wrong here... I'm not preaching. I partake just as much, if not more than probably most people on this board.... maybe that's why I probably feel so much more guilty about shit than most people on this board do. 90% of the time my life sucks and so it does for most of the people I know. That's why we indulge ourselves in our vices. People are shit...

I guess the reason I keep thinking more and more about religion is that if there is no God, I really can't even see the fucking point of any of this anymore. Where's the fun at? I thought being free from God would be fun and games all day.

If they have it any better over there, and I won't take any newscast from either our contry or theirs as evidence on this either way, more power to them and I can't half blame them from wanting to keep us from INVADING them too.

EDIT: The Dickwad commment above wasn't meant as an attack to anybody personally here. I know how sensitive we can all be in here, so I figured that I'd just mention that before I had the whole thread turns on me. If you're guilty of what I was throwing out there, you already know who you are.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, March 16, 2007 10:05 AM

On a far less serious note:

Quote:
Originally posted by ShinyEd:
Just released today..." In a stunning development related to the "300" story, the highest of highs...the magilla-mullah of Teheran, Iatoilet Khomaniac issued a belated fart-twat today calling for the death of all survivng members of the band A Flock Of Seagulls." It seems their 1982 hit "I Ran", with it's homosexual theme, is being heard there for the first time(thanks to free Iraqi radio stations) and has sent the muzzy-wuzzies of Iran into another one of their outraged epileptic, body-twitching fits of dementia and death. Fortunately,they at least have some form of recreation to enjoy after a long day of genuflecting and burning American flags & jumping up & down like horny toads.....they can always gang rape a young Muslim girl nearby, have HER tried and convicted of a crime against Sharia...followed by a mere 90 lashes from the whip....that's a real hoot in the zany world of Islam.

Congratulations ShinyED......

I think this may be the funniest post I've ever seen on this board or any other I've ever been on. I take it back if it is true though....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

BABYWITHTHEPOWER

Friday, March 16, 2007 11:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Well Causal, you've joined the ranks of the assholes. Good for you.

If he's an asshole, then what exactly does that make you?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll be in my bunk.
XO of the 76th Battalion http://76thbattalion.homestead.com/index.html
http://www.myspace.com/babywiththepower

CAUSAL

Friday, March 16, 2007 12:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Well Causal, you've joined the ranks of the assholes. Good for you.

Listen, why are the insults flying now? I haven't called you any dirty names. I'm just disagreeing with you. I think your original post was factually inaccurate and I think you're being far too sensitive about the film, but how does that justify your throwing insulting names around? You originally came into a thread that was meant for a bit of comic relief and you were just a wet blanket from minute one, and for some reason I'm supposed to feel sorry for you? If you didn't find Geezer's jokes funny, you could have just found another thread to read. But, oh, that's right, you've got it in for Geezer on account of his political views, so no matter what he says, you've got to stand in opposition to it. Well, now you've been in this room for a day and a half and no one is rushing to your aid nor condemming Geezer for his awful ways. Now you know what it feels like to be in the political discussion threads when you hold a minority opinion. It's not very fun because people don't just disagree with you: they're mean about it. And it hurts. I hope this will inspire you to debate on those forums with a little more sensitivity to the feelings of the people you're disagreeing with.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

CAUSAL

Friday, March 16, 2007 12:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Decaf:
I think we should rely on the more general term here. Rue is a heckler. If a stand-up comic tells a joke, the appropriate responses are to laugh, or not to laugh. If it is too offensive to take, you walk out. Those are the rules, but since we're in "no one can hurt me" land here on the internet, hecklers are free to look for places to cause a ruckus and feel important.

In case the parallel eludes you, what happens when a heckler starts up? The comic gets dragged off track and suddenly it becomes an argument between the two of them, the routine left aside, much to 99.9% of the audience's chagrin. The comic sees that and tries to get back into the flow of things, but the heckler won't let him. Either the heckler has to get tired of being an ass, or the comic walks off stage in frustration. I could be off base on this, but it sounds awfully familiar.

Nice analysis decaf. Thanks for the clarity.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

SHINYED

Friday, March 16, 2007 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Originally posted by ShinyEd:
Just released today..." In a stunning development related to the "300" story, the highest of highs...the magilla-mullah of Teheran, Iatoilet Khomaniac issued a belated fart-twat today calling for the death of all survivng members of the band A Flock Of Seagulls." It seems their 1982 hit "I Ran", with it's homosexual theme, is being heard there for the first time(thanks to free Iraqi radio stations) and has sent the muzzy-wuzzies of Iran into another one of their outraged epileptic, body-twitching fits of dementia and death. Fortunately,they at least have some form of recreation to enjoy after a long day of genuflecting and burning American flags & jumping up & down like horny toads.....they can always gang rape a young Muslim girl nearby, have HER tried and convicted of a crime against Sharia...followed by a mere 90 lashes from the whip....that's a real hoot in the zany world of Islam.

Congratulations ShinyED......
I think this may be the funniest post I've ever seen on this board or any other I've ever been on. I take it back if it is true though...

6ixString....glad you enjoyed the post.
The first part is fictional.
The second part is all too true....happens every day all over the Muslim world....only some of it gets reported here, and then only a fraction of the media even bother to cover it....it kinda goes agin' their "we must love muslims" agenda.

CAUSAL

Friday, March 16, 2007 12:38 PM

Quote:

Iranians buzzed with resentment at the film's depictions of Persians, adamant that the movie was secretly funded by the U.S. government to prepare Americans for going to war against Iran.
...
The morning newspaper lay on the table with the headline "300 AGAINST 70 MILLION!" (the population of the country). It was echoed by the evening news: "Hollywood has opened a new front in the war against Iran."

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1598886,00.html?cnn=yes

Do you think most Americans even know that the Persians are the Iranians?

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

GEEZER

Friday, March 16, 2007 2:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Quote:

Iranians buzzed with resentment at the film's depictions of Persians, adamant that the movie was secretly funded by the U.S. government to prepare Americans for going to war against Iran.
...
The morning newspaper lay on the table with the headline "300 AGAINST 70 MILLION!" (the population of the country). It was echoed by the evening news: "Hollywood has opened a new front in the war against Iran."

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1598886,00.html?cnn=yes

Do you think most Americans even know that the Persians are the Iranians?

Never could figure out why they changed their name, back prior to WWII.

I did notice that, in their outrage, the Iranians do tend to gloss over the fact that their Persian forefathers were attempting to invade and conquer Greece. They also avoid the fact that, regardless of the merits of their respective cultures, they got their asses handed to them by a much smaller force.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

JKIDDO

Friday, March 16, 2007 3:22 PM

Decaf- I disagree.

Back in the Ann Coulter thread- which you probably didn't read- there was a group of folks joking about Ann's reptilian hands, big adam's apple, undead appearance, and questionable gender. Geezer came in like a big buzz-kill and took everyone to task for their prejudice against transexuals, blacks, Jews, and gays.... I kid you not! He harped on how terrible it was to have fun at someone's expense based on prejudicial or personal characteristics. And here, he's doing the same thing that he crapped about in the other thread.

CAUSAL

Friday, March 16, 2007 3:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
I did notice that, in their outrage, the Iranians do tend to gloss over the fact that their Persian forefathers were attempting to invade and conquer Greece. They also avoid the fact that, regardless of the merits of their respective cultures, they got their asses handed to them by a much smaller force.

Fact 1: the Persians invaded Greece
Fact 2: there really was a battle of Thermopylae, and the Spartans and allies really did hold out for three days
Fact 3: the Greeks really did subsequently throw the Persian invaders out of the country (I just love the line from the graphic novel--which also made it into the movie--"The enemy outnumbers us by a paltry 3-to-1; good odds for any Greek")

Now, the Iranians are up in arms, it seems, primarily because Xerxes (and, by their lights, all Persians) was depicted as a decadent, self-indulgent ruler, surrounded by all manner of debauchery. And maybe Frank Miller (and, following him, Zak Snyder) took some liberties with this in order to contrast him with the Greeks (who were plenty decadent themselves, in some cases). But let's not lose sight of the fact that Xerxes wasn't a Muslim. It was another 1,100 years before Mohammed had his first vision, so I think it's a little unrealistic of the Iranians to complain about the manner in which Xerxes was depicted. I'm not sure what the sexual ethics of Zoroastrianism are, but I can't imagine they were as draconian as the Islamic ones are. As well, it seems pretty common place for absolute rulers like Xerxes to indulge themselves on an grand scale because hey: they can. So I can't really see how this film is the insult to Iran. They may share the geographic homeland of the Persian empire, and they may retain genetic connection to those ancient peoples, but the Iranians are not the Persians.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

CAUSAL

Friday, March 16, 2007 5:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JKiddo:
Back in the Ann Coulter thread- which you probably didn't read- there was a group of folks joking about Ann's reptilian hands, big adam's apple, undead appearance, and questionable gender. Geezer came in like a big buzz-kill and took everyone to task for their prejudice against transexuals, blacks, Jews, and gays.... I kid you not! He harped on how terrible it was to have fun at someone's expense based on prejudicial or personal characteristics. And here, he's doing the same thing that he crapped about in the other thread.

Interesting thing that: Geezer's first post over there was a joke:

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer (Ann Coulter thread):
John Edwards is a bunch of sticks? Well, he always did seem a little stiff...

What was that SoupCatcher said about false equivalency? 'Cause I'm pretty sure it applies in this case.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

KHYRON

Friday, March 16, 2007 5:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JKiddo:
And here, he's doing the same thing that he crapped about in the other thread.

Haven't seen that happening. In the other thread, he was critical of the below-the-belt, distasteful comments that were being made against Ann Coulter, and here he mocks the Iranian regime by using parody. I don't see any double-standard.

As Causal said, false equivalency.

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

GEEZER

Friday, March 16, 2007 6:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Now, the Iranians are up in arms, it seems, primarily because Xerxes (and, by their lights, all Persians) was depicted as a decadent, self-indulgent ruler, surrounded by all manner of debauchery.

According to most of the web biographies goggle brings up, Xerxes did retreat into self-indulgent living, and possibly debauchery, following the Greek war. After 15 years of extravagance had seriously reduced the treasury, his son Artaxerxes is reported to have connived with his vizer to assassinate Xerxes and place Artaxerxes on the throne. Artaxerxes is also implicated in the murders of two of his younger brothers. Gotta love those Persian family values.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

JKIDDO

Friday, March 16, 2007 6:47 PM

Quote:
Gotta love those Persian family values.

It seems to me that he's assuming that Iranians are religious nut-jobs. Prejudicial because it "pre-judges" Iranian reaction. AFA being "below the belt" or "distasteful"- that depends very much on your audience. Geezer's comments about Iranians aren't distateful to this audience. But I know some Persians.... nice folks, moderate in their religion, professionals, good family people, one son is my daughter's boyfriend ... who would be highly offended. In other words, you and Geezer share a common prejudice which makes this thread not "distasteful".

CAUSAL

Friday, March 16, 2007 6:53 PM

Boy, oh boy, do I wish Haken had made an eye-rolling emoticon.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

JKIDDO

Friday, March 16, 2007 6:55 PM

Quote:
Gotta love those Persian family values.

BWAAHAHAHA!!! Oh yeah this is seriously funny!!! Thanks for the laugh!

NOT

SOUPCATCHER

Friday, March 16, 2007 7:01 PM

The difference between Geezer and Rue is the difference between Odysseus and Achilles. And the manipulative will always have the advantage over the straightforward.

GEEZER

Friday, March 16, 2007 7:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JKiddo:
It seems to me that he's assuming that Iranians are religious nut-jobs. Prejudicial because it "pre-judges" Iranian reaction.

Actually, I'm just expanding, in a satirical manner, on previously demonstrated characteristics of the Iranian government and religious hierarchy. Satire is an ancient and well-respected form of political and social commentary in Western civilization. When you denegrate satire, you denegrate Western Civilization. I should be upset.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Friday, March 16, 2007 7:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
The difference between Geezer and Rue is the difference between Odysseus and Achilles.

So I'm a demi-god and Rue is...a heel?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

JKIDDO

Friday, March 16, 2007 7:42 PM

oops

RAZZA

Friday, March 16, 2007 7:49 PM

Soup:

I always appreciate your input, but I find Rue's posts often very tangential, distracting, and about as straightforward as winding mountain road. I often think there are two Rues. One who is not knee jerk reacting and who speaks cogently and is effective in their persuasiveness. A second who feels the need to be contrary and mean spirited just because they disagree with someone.

I've been on the receiving end of both Rues and find the former enjoyable if trying while the latter distastful and annoying.

I think Rue's conduct in this thread has unfortunately been more of the former and not so much of the latter.

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
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