The Rime of the Ancient Mariner

POSTED BY: MalsNara
UPDATED: Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:09
VIEWED: 6622
PAGE 1 of 1

MALSNARA

Saturday, March 31, 2007 3:22 PM

This the poem that Mal talks about in Serenity when The Operative calls River an albatross. Thought ya'll might wanna take a look. Any thoughts on why Joss used it?

P.S It's very long
________________________________________________

It is an ancient Mariner,
And he stoppeth one of three.
'By thy long grey beard and glittering eye,
Now wherefore stopp'st thou me?

The bridegroom's doors are opened wide,
And I am next of kin;
The guests are met, the feast is set:
Mayst hear the merry din.'

He holds him with his skinny hand,
"There was a ship," quoth he.
'Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!'
Eftsoons his hand dropped he.

He holds him with his glittering eye—
The Wedding-Guest stood still,
And listens like a three years' child:
The Mariner hath his will.

The Wedding-Guest sat on a stone:
He cannot choose but hear;
And thus spake on that ancient man,
The bright-eyed Mariner.

"The ship was cheered, the harbour cleared,
Merrily did we drop
Below the kirk, below the hill,
Below the lighthouse top.

The sun came up upon the left,
Out of the sea came he!
And he shone bright, and on the right
Went down into the sea.

Higher and higher every day,
Till over the mast at noon—"
The Wedding-Guest here beat his breast,
For he heard the loud bassoon.

The bride hath paced into the hall,
Red as a rose is she;
Nodding their heads before her goes
The merry minstrelsy.

The Wedding-Guest he beat his breast,
Yet he cannot choose but hear;
And thus spake on that ancient man,
The bright-eyed Mariner.

"And now the storm-blast came, and he
Was tyrannous and strong:
He struck with his o'ertaking wings,
And chased us south along.

With sloping masts and dipping prow,
As who pursued with yell and blow
Still treads the shadow of his foe,
And foward bends his head,
The ship drove fast, loud roared the blast,
And southward aye we fled.

And now there came both mist and snow,
And it grew wondrous cold:
And ice, mast-high, came floating by,
As green as emerald.

And through the drifts the snowy clifts
Did send a dismal sheen:
Nor shapes of men nor beasts we ken—
The ice was all between.

The ice was here, the ice was there,
The ice was all around:
It cracked and growled, and roared and howled,
Like noises in a swound!

At length did cross an Albatross,
Thorough the fog it came;
As it had been a Christian soul,
We hailed it in God's name.

It ate the food it ne'er had eat,
And round and round it flew.
The ice did split with a thunder-fit;
The helmsman steered us through!

And a good south wind sprung up behind;
The Albatross did follow,
And every day, for food or play,
Came to the mariner's hollo!

In mist or cloud, on mast or shroud,
It perched for vespers nine;
Whiles all the night, through fog-smoke white,
Glimmered the white moonshine."

'God save thee, ancient Mariner,
From the fiends that plague thee thus!—
Why look'st thou so?'—"With my crossbow
I shot the Albatross."

Part II

"The sun now rose upon the right:
Out of the sea came he,
Still hid in mist, and on the left
Went down into the sea.

And the good south wind still blew behind,
But no sweet bird did follow,
Nor any day for food or play
Came to the mariners' hollo!

And I had done a hellish thing,
And it would work 'em woe:
For all averred, I had killed the bird
That made the breeze to blow.
Ah wretch! said they, the bird to slay,
That made the breeze to blow!

Nor dim nor red, like God's own head,
The glorious sun uprist:
Then all averred, I had killed the bird
That brought the fog and mist.
'Twas right, said they, such birds to slay,
That bring the fog and mist.

The fair breeze blew, the white foam flew,
The furrow followed free;
We were the first that ever burst
Into that silent sea.

Down dropped the breeze, the sails dropped down,
'Twas sad as sad could be;
And we did speak only to break
The silence of the sea!

All in a hot and copper sky,
The bloody sun, at noon,
Right up above the mast did stand,
No bigger than the moon.

PLATONIST

Saturday, March 31, 2007 4:18 PM

A story to tell (Miranda), an albatross (River, is she good or bad luck?), a mariner (Mal), the wedding guests (viewers)...so many analogies, plus the poem is from the Romantic Period of literature (Josh draws his writing style from this period with Shakespearean sprinkles (the Tempest and the St. Crispin's Day soliloguy, Mal delivers)

By the way, River's, "please make me stone", is from The Hunchback of Notre Dame (Hugo, 1823), the same period of time.

MALSNARA

Saturday, March 31, 2007 4:19 PM

Thanks, I didn't know that last bit and the others parts I agree with too.

"some people juggle geese"

THOLO

Saturday, March 31, 2007 5:13 PM

Iron Maiden wrote a song called The Rime of the Ancient Mariner, based on the poem.

It's 13 minutes long and on the Powerslave album.

Give it a listen.

Keep Flying!!
Tholo

GLADIATOR32

Saturday, March 31, 2007 5:27 PM

And a belter of a tune it is, too. The mid section of that song is one of the most powerful things ever recorded

-------------------------------

www.myspace.com/32dan32

WANDERINGFOOL

Saturday, March 31, 2007 5:47 PM

Yes that is a great song!!!! by a great band!!!

good poem too

TURNIPYODOUR

Saturday, March 31, 2007 7:27 PM

I think we need a link so that people can experience this song in all its glory. Be prepared for an 11 minute Maiden masterpiece:

Part 1

Part 2

From the Iron Maiden video 'Live After Death' filmed live in concert at Long Beach Arena 1985.

Up the irons!!!

RHYIANAN

Saturday, March 31, 2007 8:21 PM

Hmm, maybe watching this will stop me from reading this poem to the tune of gilligan's island. Darn literature teacher for pointing out that it fits the tune (which is also the way she told us to test if a particular poem is a ballad or not).

I'm a leaf on the wind

ZOID

Sunday, April 1, 2007 6:14 AM

Mal's 'Nara:

I don't think there was any deep hidden meaning in Joss' allusion to The Rime. The Op called River an albatross -- a bringer of bad luck and disaster -- and Mal pointed out that the albatross was actually considered good luck. The albatross only brings bad luck if you kill it (and by extension, the good luck it brings).

Not exactly a throw-away exchange of lines, by any means; but, not filled with deeper significance, either. It's possible to read too much into the writer's intentions...

On the positive side, another writer may have used a hackneyed old cliche ("You can have the girl when you pry my cold, dead fingers off of her."). Joss' true gift is the ingenuity he instills in even his throw-away lines.

Considerately,

zoid

_________________________________________________

"So the question you've got to be asking yourself, Mr. ... um... Operative, is 'was that five ident beacons or six?' Well? Do you feel lucky?" -Capt. Mal Reynolds, (sorta) Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

CYBERSNARK

Sunday, April 1, 2007 3:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
On the positive side, another writer may have used a hackneyed old cliche ("You can have the girl when you pry my cold, dead fingers off of her.").

Actually, that still would've been a pretty funny Mal-ism, just for a different reason.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

CRUITHNE3753

Sunday, April 1, 2007 3:51 PM

What flavour is it?

NAFLM

Monday, April 2, 2007 7:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Rhyianan:
Hmm, maybe watching this will stop me from reading this poem to the tune of gilligan's island. Darn literature teacher for pointing out that it fits the tune (which is also the way she told us to test if a particular poem is a ballad or not).

Then you probably don't want to hear me say that I sometimes get the Firefly theme song confused with the theme song from The Facts of Life.

MARINA

Tuesday, April 3, 2007 4:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:

Mal's 'Nara:

I don't think there was any deep hidden meaning in Joss' allusion to The Rime. The Op called River an albatross -- a bringer of bad luck and disaster -- and Mal pointed out that the albatross was actually considered good luck. The albatross only brings bad luck if you kill it (and by extension, the good luck it brings).

Not exactly a throw-away exchange of lines, by any means; but, not filled with deeper significance, either. It's possible to read too much into the writer's intentions...

On the positive side, another writer may have used a hackneyed old cliche ("You can have the girl when you pry my cold, dead fingers off of her."). Joss' true gift is the ingenuity he instills in even his throw-away lines.

But by the same token Joss chose to use the analogy in the script at all, when he might just as easily have chosen something else. The "significance" that I got from it however was pretty straightforward - it's making the link between sea exploration, solitude, etc. to space exploration, solitude, etc. Just another one of those particulars that was thrown in to reinforce the (forgive me) "last frontier" theme.

Don't make faces.

ZOID

Tuesday, April 3, 2007 10:14 AM

marina replied:

Quote:
But by the same token Joss chose to use the analogy in the script at all, when he might just as easily have chosen something else. The "significance" that I got from it however was pretty straightforward - it's making the link between sea exploration, solitude, etc. to space exploration, solitude, etc. Just another one of those particulars that was thrown in to reinforce the (forgive me) "last frontier" theme.

...And on the flip side of that same token, maybe Joss called River and "albatross" exactly twice in the movie because he knew "Into the Blue" was filming across town, and on a release schedule similar to his own...

That Joss. He's such a punster.

On the other, other side of this contested token however (exactly how many sides has this token got anyways?), IF Joss intended deeper significance from this nuance, it would be fairly apt since -- like The Ancient Mariner -- Malcolm can truly never go home again. Mal is doomed to roam the 'seas' of space forever.

Ergo, by calling River an "albatross" the second time -- at the movie's conclusion -- Joss is signifying that Mal's kept his good luck charm alive and just perhaps earned a chance to go home (or make a new one of his own). We know he's a lubber by birth and rearing, so why did he choose a space mariner's life, never dwelling on dry land again?

Personally, I rather doubt that Joss would be quite this specifically subtle, even with his core followers. I suspect that it's more likely a convenient turn of phrase to call a bad luck-bringer an 'albatross', and then have the main character clarify that according to the poem, an albatross was traditionally considered good luck, not bad luck. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

And the tendency may exist to read significance into such devices that the author never intended. This leaving things open-ended enough so that the viewer comes to their own personal conclusions about the deeper meaning of the movie, is a hallmark of great films like "Blade Runner", the first "Matrix", etc., and it often stems from the throw-away lines. That the viewer may come to any of twenty differing conclusions is intended by the creator, more so than that one conclusion was intended by the creator. He/She simply casts the philosophical stink bait out upon the waters of consciousness, and then lets the little fishies of each individual's mind fight over it...

Pescadorially,

zoid

P.S.
See? I can argue both sides of just about anything. It's tough to live with myself. Really.
_________________________________________________

"Yo no soy marinero, soy capitán" -Capt. Mal 'Ritchie' Reynolds, (sorta), Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

CALHOUN

Tuesday, April 3, 2007 10:53 AM

I recently found this poem in a book of poetry(of all places..) and read it(30 something odd pages...) but each paragragh had next to it a version interpreted in a more modern style, made it better in my eyes.

MARINA

Tuesday, April 3, 2007 1:11 PM

Edited to eliminate excuses for wrath.

ZOID

Tuesday, April 3, 2007 11:04 PM

marina replied:

Quote:
Really?

You honestly believe that it's worth the time and energy to argue that the very basic correlations between the poem and the status of Serenity are "reading too much into it?"

Besides which, if other people want to discuss the poem and what THEY read into it, I don't see why you would continually insist on telling them they're wrong. You're correct in that there are a lot of things, in Serenity and pretty much any good book/song/film/series, that are open ended. Personally I think the authors would want there to be discussion and debate over those issues - otherwise, what is there to talk about?

With all respect (and I'm genuinely not trying to be rude), if you don't want to talk about the poem and the connections others made with the film, then maybe stop reading this thread? Because of all the things in the world, *possibly* reading too much into a literary reference seems like it wouldn't even make the list of things to worry about...

...And yet, here I am discussing the poem and the movie. Why are you so incensed? Is it that my opinion -- that the reference to The Rime is given strictly in passing and of no additional import -- is a valid (arguable) position? Or is it just that I disagreed with you that makes you angry?

If others argue that Joss' referring to The Rime was intentional of some greater significance, I readily admit that is a valid (arguable) stance. If I counter-argue that it is not, that is an equally valid stance, since we have no word from Joss himself about his actual intentions.

We are discussing the poem and the movie, so I haven't caused that discussion to come to a close by disagreeing. Furthermore, I haven't suggested that -- since your opinion differs from mine -- you go somewhere else to avoid a conflict of ideas. In other words, I have been respectful of the ideas of yourself and others, even if I disagree with them.

How can one benefit from the contrast of ideas without opposing viewpoints? Additionally, I made a fairly compelling argument for your position; but, you chose not to mention that in your riposte. Apparently, unless everyone agrees with your opinion then they and their arguments are worthless to you; you denigrate them.

So, whether you intended it or not, your 'Shut up! I don't want to hear your opinion because it disagrees with mine' attitude was rude, and wholly unjustified by any statements I made. I did not attack anyone else's opinion. So why did you attack both me and my argument with your counter-argument of 'I want you to go away'? Saying, "I'm genuinely not trying to be rude" doesn't cover the fact that you were intentionally rude.

...But, to put on the 'peacemaker hat' and not let this become some sort of personal war of words that is both uncalled for and to no one's benefit:
The goal of the sport of debate is not in determining who's the winner. Rather, it is to view both sides of the topic of investigation, and as a consequence, to derive a more well-rounded knowledge of the subject than would be possible from a myopic, one-sided discussion. My intent was to state my differing opinion, and then discuss both it and the differing opinions of others, thereby achieving a more rich discussion than simply, "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner references had an expanded meaning within the movie" and "Oh, I agree completely!", followed by, "Me too!"

Where's the quest for elucidation in that?

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
...And now, I depart the thread, per your polite invitation...
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

MARINA

Wednesday, April 4, 2007 1:00 AM

I think you misunderstood me, which I apologize for. I also think I misunderstood your earlier post, which I mentioned to you.

However, I did want to clarify that I don't actually HAVE an opinion on this (nor has the concept of "winning" anything entered my mind - this isn't a competition, and if it were, this wouldn't be the one I'd spend my time on). There have been a lot of snarky posters lately shooting others down, and for some reason I read your comment about others reading too much into it as a criticism. Apparently I was mistaken, and rather than wanting people to stop talking about theirs, you actually wanted to exchange opinions. My mistake.

Don't make faces.

OOKAMIKAWAHARA

Wednesday, April 4, 2007 7:43 AM

Zoid, you ever been done debate class? I swear your sounding like my brother almost lol. He ended up taking to yrs during High school if I remeber correctly. Anyways just a quick wave from Japan. Thanks everyone for posting the lines of the poem and stimilating conversation / thoughts. As for my own opinions, well we`ll leave those for another time. Anyways keep flyen and stay shiny.

mata, Ookami yori

ZOID

Wednesday, April 4, 2007 9:29 AM

marina wrote:

Quote:
I think you misunderstood me, which I apologize for. I also think I misunderstood your earlier post, which I mentioned to you.

However, I did want to clarify that I don't actually HAVE an opinion on this (nor has the concept of "winning" anything entered my mind - this isn't a competition, and if it were, this wouldn't be the one I'd spend my time on). There have been a lot of snarky posters lately shooting others down, and for some reason I read your comment about others reading too much into it as a criticism. Apparently I was mistaken, and rather than wanting people to stop talking about theirs, you actually wanted to exchange opinions. My mistake.

Apology accepted; forgiven and all offenses forgotten. Understanding is all I seek.

I've reread my posts on this thread and detect no 'snarkiness' on my part. Disagreement, yes; but without denigrating the opinions of others. I do, however, completely understand your instinct to protect others, since I myself have done the same on numerous occasions on these boards. Some folks aren't 'happy' unless they are making others feel bad about themselves. What that says about these miscreants is unsettling; but I personally usually wait until they have called others 'dumb', 'stupid', or 'cattle'/'sheep'/other type of non-human animal before I go off on 'em.

Please accept my offer of unconditional peace between us.

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
...And good luck in S. Korea. Keep safe and well. I'm sure you'll find much to learn from and love about that ancient civilization.
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

ZOID

Wednesday, April 4, 2007 10:02 AM

Ookamikawahara wrote:

Quote:
Zoid, you ever been done debate class? I swear your sounding like my brother almost lol. He ended up taking to yrs during High school if I remeber correctly. Anyways just a quick wave from Japan. Thanks everyone for posting the lines of the poem and stimilating conversation / thoughts. As for my own opinions, well we`ll leave those for another time. Anyways keep flyen and stay shiny.

mata, Ookami yori

*zoid faces West and waves back, causing total strangers in the Barnes & Noble to look strangely at him*

Debate (forensics) was more rewarding than chess, which I became disinterested in when it became clear to me that chess was nothing more than mental warfare, with nothing to be gained. Debate can be warfare, too; but I prefer it when it is a synthesis of minds, weighing a subject's pros and cons. In that way, everyone -- participants and audience alike -- comes away enriched by the exercise.

Alas, too many times people hear the terms 'debate' or 'argument' and immediately affix negative connotations to them. But true debate is not threatening to punch someone you disagree with, and a true argument is not a shouting match. Rather, an argument is "the advancement by each side of facts and reasons intended to persuade the other side". ...And I'm not even particularly fond of that definition, because as I said, I don't care to persuade others, particularly. I simply seek Understanding of everything my mind comes in contact with. Anything short of that is a disappointment.

One of the many beauties of debate is that it teaches one to truly listen to what others are saying, in order to be an effective participant. Too many times in this increasingly self-absorbed world we live in, we hear but fail to listen to others, wouldn't you agree? That failure is the source of all enmity, on an interpersonal and international level.

...ummm... so, yeah. I like debate.

And I participated in this thread because I found its premise debatable, by which I mean, 'worthy of a complete examination'. I do hope folks will carry on with that exercise...

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
Have a beautiful day, Ookami-san
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

OOKAMIKAWAHARA

Thursday, April 5, 2007 7:31 AM

Hey Zoid,
Thanks for the mail and the wave! Always fun to be hanging around in Barns and Noble! Yeah I actually helped teach a debate class once well working as a sub. Not to mention my own college training was in International Studies ie read Poli Sci major. So I`ve done a far bit of structured arguments and presenting cases as well lol. Model U.N. is one of the funnist one. Where else can you represent a country that lies, cheats, commits gross violations of human rights and yet can get a good many other countries to follow their lead. (No I`m not pointing the figure at any one country here, look at every country and its got a crappy record on some issue lol) I think it was Book that said Goverments are made up of people noteablely ungoverned etc. Anyways continue thrilling sides of said conversation. I liked how the full text was added in and everyones interepation of it. Anyways this is eating up net cafe time so I will talk with ya later.
mata, Ookami yori

ZOID

Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:09 AM

Ookamikawahara replied, in part:

Quote:
...Not to mention my own college training was in International Studies ie read Poli Sci major. ...

Me too.

But fairly early on, I realized that Pol Sci = Chess. Unlike "War Games" WOPR, however, I came to the conclusion that chess is ultimately a zero sum game, too; tic-tac-toe, just on a more finely grained, broader scale. When played by skilled practitioners, Politics -- as with chess -- becomes a war of attrition, with the needs and goals of the common people as the pawns. In politics, too much is sacrificed by the front rank, in order to keep the 'nobles' out of jeopardy. Rather than drawing out a bloody war of political attrition to its inevitable total destruction, wouldn't it be nice if the 'kings' (read: 'heads of state' or 'majority/minority leaders') stood alone on the battlefield and bloodied only themselves for a change?

Ergo, WOPR's conclusion was illogical. Chess (and by analogy, Politics) is the most devastating of all war games. How about a nice game of Global Thermonuclear War, instead? At least it's a quick and humane death. Just save me a seat at ground zero, please...

So I concentrated instead on logic, cultural anthropology and literature, and let the politicians (which, by then, I knew myself not to be) take care of 'governance' and 'international law', whatever the hell that is. In other words, had I written WOPR's lines, it would have asked, (vocorder) "How about a nice game of Chaucer?" (/vocorder)

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
They say that within a certain radius of an atomic blast, any exposed lifeform is instantaneously vaporized. Or as we used to say in the 70's: "Beam me up Scottie. There's no intelligent life on this planet."

P.P.S.
Since we seem to have run out of steam on The Rime take, anyone care to venture which Canterbury Tales characters most resemble our BDH's (and whether or not Joss intended them to)?
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'