We're celebrating what, again ?
POSTED BY: Fremdfirma
UPDATED: Thursday, January 9, 2025 00:43
VIEWED: 10410
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Is anyone else pissed that this so-called holiday has become about the most hypocritical joke EVER?
Celebrating WHAT fucking "freedom" ?
The "freedom" to be declared an enemy combatant and sent off for "extraordinary rendition" ?
The "freedom" to be harrassed and spied upon ?
The "freedom" to be shaken down and felt up by the TSA ?
I'm very tempted to go outside a run a goddamn Gadsden flag up the pole - but I can't take the risk of being arrested and having my home seized for "Terrorism"... ain't that a fuckin laugh ?
And just in case you don't get the core reasons for my annoyance, here they are.
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IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
Gee, that sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it ?
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
Can you say "signing statements" ? I knew you could
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
I believe we call that the Greater Washington DC area, yes ?
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
Care to check the timestamps on recent Congressional Votes, especially tight ones ?
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
Of course, simply ignoring them has the same effect, cause he's 'the decider' yanno
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
Huh ? what ? since when have the People had any authority.. oh wait...?
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
Or simply ignored the la
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Ergo, in the end, we have accomplished NOTHING, save to replace one King George with another, and celebrating a lie of this magnitude disgusts me utterly, with rabid patriotism and ignorant self-imposed deliberate and malicious blindness ruling the day as they cheer on the death of liberty.
Among other deformities, it has an awful squinting; it squints toward monarchy, and does not this raise indignation in the breast of every true American? Your president may easily become king. Your Senate is so imperfectly constructed that your dearest rights may be sacrificed to what may be a small minority; and a very small minority may continue for ever unchangeably this government, altho horridly defective.
I say unto you, fuck the 4th, and the lies that come with it.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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There's a lovely piece on The Nation's editorial page, accessible thru yahoo. opinions, about Thomas Paine, advocating the original Revolution, and advising Congress to impeach Cheney and Bush.
Meanwhile, best we can hope for is that there is an election only 18 months away, so these guys aren't in charge for life.
And hurrah for the Gadsden flag, a better symbol for America, actually, than the Stars and Stripes.
" There's always a difference, the difference between bad and worse, which is much sharper than the difference between bad and better."
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Let me first say that I'm not entirely unsympathetic to your views. The reach and power of the Imperial Federal Government has extended well beyond what the Founding Fathers had in mind. I'm not so paranoid that I think that my mail is being read or my phone conversations are being listened to by men in black. , but there are problems.
It's clear from the latest immigration bill skirmish , that there are many in D.C. who consider themselves the top of the food chain, and that the rest of us should be lucky we're allowed what freedoms we still have.
I believe it was Benjamin Franklin who said that we have been given a Republic, now it's up to us to keep it.
I wonder what he'd think of us now.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
There's a lovely piece on The Nation's editorial page, accessible thru yahoo. opinions, about Thomas Paine, advocating the original Revolution, and advising Congress to impeach Cheney and Bush.
Meanwhile, best we can hope for is that there is an election only 18 months away, so these guys aren't in charge for life.
I trust some will still be as vigilant toward our freedoms should the Democrats take over the White House, and control Congress as well. For it is their plans which truly are designed to strip us of our rights. ( Fairness Doctrine, for example ) There's nothing at all which Cheney or Bush have done to warrant impeachment, though I do understand such talk is inevitable. It is all that some simpletons can muster, when trying to voice some sort of contrary opinion. Lacking the mental capacity to formulate rational thought, they instead simply blurt out "Impeach" . Though if asked 'why?', they could not say.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Whooa, back up the turkey truck son... now lookahere.
Whatisdis wit playin the gestapo an tryin to scare folk outta the thread?
I say, i say, i say, it's downright unseemly son, skedaddle off a minnit and siddown.
Strikes me a bit fancy that yer talkin outta both sides o yer mouth, cause ya ain't talkin no sense sayin two differin things in the same breath, ya hear?
Ya come straight out and go denyin that us poor fool americans are gettin spied upon by the gubbermint, when it's been right as rain admitted by the plumb fool idjits that what did it in the first place!
An on top o that you go on blamin the dimmocrats for strippin us of our freedoms, not sayin they didn't help push the ball along son, but ain't them what started it in motion, I say, I say, son..
Don't get on a-thinkin that noboddy luvs them dimmocrats no more than any other buncha plumb fools up on da hill polishin chairs with their backside for a livin, ya all steamed up bout all the wrong things ya ask me...
An the nerve! ya go on tellin folk they dun nuttin impeachable ? whyfor ya kin see it a mile away that they did, I say, I say! even I kin name a hunnert things, but let's keep it simple and go with what put an end to tricky dick - when da con-gress send ya a letter called a SUB-PEE-NOE, it means cough up the goods ye damn fool, er yer gonna go ta JAIL, is what it is, I say, I say there...
An to top it all off, ya go an be insultin to them fair folks who be wantin justice done, such as it is around here these days, I got half a mind to get me a willa stick and learn ya good about mistreatin yer peers, now shaddap an set a spell, and let other folks chime in ya greedy damn fool !
I'm Foghorn Leghorn, and I be approvin of this message, I say I say I say...
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
There's nothing at all which Cheney or Bush have done to warrant impeachment, though I do understand such talk is inevitable. It is all that some simpletons can muster, when trying to voice some sort of contrary opinion. Lacking the mental capacity to formulate rational thought, they instead simply blurt out "Impeach" . Though if asked 'why?', they could not say.
I wrote out a long post about the many, "Why"s but realized the important thing was not, "Why?" but instead your statement, "There's nothing at all which Cheney or Bush have done to warrant impeachment."
That statement really shows you don't know what impeachment is all about. No one ever needs to do something to be impeached. If you needed to do something wrong before you could be impeached then article two section four would not read, "The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors," because if you had to be known to be guilty first there would be no need for a conviction.
Conviction is only necessary if the Constitution allows people to be impeached without doing anything wrong.
What is required is not for Bush or Cheney to have committed "Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors" but instead for there to be a distinct and visible possibility that they may have committed such things.
Bush admits to warrantless wiretapping, some people believe that this qualifies as such while Bush maintains that it is legal. The next logical step is to draft articles of impeachment. Then the House is to debate the case for and against, in this case whether or not is possible that warrantless wiretapping might qualify as grounds for dismissal. If the House votes for impeachment then, and only then, does the question of whether or not Bush really did anything wrong come up. In this case the question is not whether or not he did it but whether or not it was wrong, more specifically whether or not it is grounds for removal from office under Article II Section IV.
It should be noted that the question of whether or not the subject did anything wrong comes up in the Senate, where as impeachment or lack there of is determined in the House.
On the side of Cheney you've got a question of involvement in bribery. That he accepted the money is not in question, nor is the fact that he lied about accepting the money. (Though, it should be noted, there was debate on whether or not you can call publicly and willfully denying what he knew to be true can described using the word, "Misled.") The only ambiguity lies in whether or not the money was a bribe. This question has never been resolved.
What is supposed to happen next is simple. The House weighs the evidence, but does not consider the guilt or innocence of Cheney or even whether or not Cheney may have done anything wrong. It determines whether or not the evidence warrants a trial, and votes. If the vote is for impeachment then, and only then, does what Cheney did or did not do come into play.
You are skipping the entire process and pronouncing them innocent before it is even determined whether or not there should be a trial. We've seen this happen before. I remember just recently the Attorney General said that he knew nothing was done improperly in a certain place at a certain time in spite of not knowing what was done or how it was done and, in fact, not knowing what the certain place and the time were. He also stated that he didn't know who was involved.
If the top lawyer in the country can know that everything was above board without knowing who, what, where, when or how it doesn't surprise me that you can know the President and Vice President have done nothing to warrant something you need to do nothing in order for it to be warranted, but I have to ask:
Why don't you want to see them proven innocent?
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We're celebrating our freedom from oppressive foreign powers that want to tell us how to live. We're celebrating our victorious rebellion against an overwhelming imperial force from overseas.
uh...
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I'm Foghorn Leghorn, and I be approvin of this message, I say I say I say...
Only one appropriate reply to that: " Are ya gonna come along peacable, er am I gonna hafta muss ya up?"
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Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
What is required is not for Bush or Cheney to have committed "Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors" but instead for there to be a distinct and visible possibility that they may have committed such things.
Bush admits to warrantless wiretapping, some people believe that this qualifies as such while Bush maintains that it is legal. The next logical step is to draft articles of impeachment.
What are they waiting for? I hear a lot of people expressing a lot of reasons for impeachment. Is everyone just waiting for someone else to make the first move? Will it be a retroactive impeachment since Bush will be gone soon?
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Quote:
I wrote out a long post about the many, "Why"s but realized the important thing was not, "Why?" but instead your statement, "There's nothing at all which Cheney or Bush have done to warrant impeachment."
That statement really shows you don't know what impeachment is all about.
Actually, I do know what impeachment is about. It's the proceedings which are brought forth in the House, and then , following a simple majority passage, tried in the Senate. After both sides have been given time to plead their case, a 2/3rds majority vote is required for conviction. My original point still stands. There's nothing which Bush or Cheney have done which would even warrant impeachment proceedings in the House. The pin head Representative, Jessie Jackson Jr is even trying to get Bush impeached for commuting Libby's prison sentence, a purely idiotic and clearly politically motivated move on Jackson Jr's part. He should know there's absolutely nothing wrong, nor any abuse of power in Bush's action, but Jackson Jr is simply trying to stir up negative sentiments against the President. It's a show, a game,and I for one find it despicable.
Quote:Wrong. Conviction is the RULING by the Senate given after the evidence has been presented. It follows that the case HAS been made which proves the person in question did commit a, high crime/misdemeanors, what ever.... while in office. You're convoluted logic is making this far more complicated than needed.
Conviction is only necessary if the Constitution allows people to be impeached without doing anything wrong.
You claim that Bush admits to wireless wiretapping, when instead all he's allowed for is the tracking of calls, not the individual tapping of lines. The language needs to be specific here, because there are distinct difference in actions taken w/ respect to the collection of data. And just as you say 'some people believe that this qualifies' as grounds for impeachment, Rep. Jackson Jr claims commuting of Libby's jail term also qualifies for impeachment. It clearly does not, nor is the false claim of 'wireless wiretapping'. Again, all this is just obstructionism by the opposition party, purely for show, purely for politics.
Quote:What bribery? From who ? And for what purpose ? Hard to claim it a fact when no case has been made. First I've heard of it, though I don't read democratundeground or the daily KOS much. Was it worse than Gore getting 'campaign donations' from Buddhist monks in exchange for allowing top secret missile technology to 'fall' into the hands of the Chinese government?
On the side of Cheney you've got a question of involvement in bribery. That he accepted the money is not in question, nor is the fact that he lied about accepting the money.
Quote:
Why don't you want to see them proven innocent?
That's putting the cart before the horse. By your 'logic', each and every President , VP and who knows how many officials should be in a perpetual state of impeachment, all to prove their innocence.
Thankfully, our system doesn't work like that. At least, so far.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:Wrong. Conviction is the RULING by the Senate given after the evidence has been presented.
Conviction is only necessary if the Constitution allows people to be impeached without doing anything wrong.
Please read things before you respond. There would be no need for a ruling in the Senate, or anywhere else, if impeachment could only occur when one had done something wrong. If, as you claim, impeachment requires that the impeached person has done something to warrant impeachment then only guilty people could be impeached in the first place.
If only guilty people could be impeached then all impeached people would, necessarily, have to be guilty. That makes the idea of conviction redundant at best, why require conviction if a person need be proven guilty before they are even impeached? And before you quibble with the word "proven" consider this: The only way to actually know whether or not someone has done something to warrant impeachment is to have it proven (or disproven.)
Quote:
It follows that the case HAS been made which proves the person in question did commit a, high crime/misdemeanors, what ever.... while in office.
Indeed. The case is made in the Senate, which only happens AFTER a person has been impeached.
So tell me, how is any corrupt official ever to be impeached if they can only be impeached after they've had a trial that only takes place after they've been impeached.
Quote:
You're convoluted logic is making this far more complicated than needed.
How is my logic any more convoluted than:
We can't impeach him because we haven't had a trial.
We can't have a trail because we haven't impeached him.
?
Quote:
That's putting the cart before the horse. By your 'logic', each and every President , VP and who knows how many officials should be in a perpetual state of impeachment, all to prove their innocence.
I never said that, nor did I imply that, and you know it.
I said that (and I'm paraphrasing) when charges, not actions, that warrant impeachment are raised they should be investigated, and, if there is enough evidence to warrant a trial the civic official in question should be impeached and subsequently tried before the Senate. It is only in the Senate that it will be determined whether or not the official actually committed the actions he is accused of in the charges warranting impeachment.
Quote:
You claim that Bush admits to wireless wiretapping, when instead all he's allowed for is the tracking of calls, not the individual tapping of lines. The language needs to be specific here, because there are distinct difference in actions taken w/ respect to the collection of data. And just as you say 'some people believe that this qualifies' as grounds for impeachment, Rep. Jackson Jr claims commuting of Libby's jail term also qualifies for impeachment. It clearly does not, nor is the false claim of 'wireless wiretapping'. Again, all this is just obstructionism by the opposition party, purely for show, purely for politics.
Ok, let me rephrase: That Bush has approved commonly referred to as "warrantless wiretapping" by the press which were declared illegal by various judges has been admitted to by Bush.
You're sidestepping though, if you are right and impeachment can only occur if people have done things the whole thing is moot, the impeachments in our history (slightly more than 60, not all of presidents and vice presidents) were almost certainly all out of order, and none of this matters.
Quote:Quote:What bribery? From who ? And for what purpose ? Hard to claim it a fact when no case has been made. First I've heard of it, though I don't read democratundeground or the daily KOS much.
On the side of Cheney you've got a question of involvement in bribery. That he accepted the money is not in question, nor is the fact that he lied about accepting the money.
First off I didn't say there was any bribery, I s
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Ergo, in the end, we have accomplished NOTHING, save to replace one King George with another, and celebrating a lie of this magnitude disgusts me utterly, with rabid patriotism and ignorant self-imposed deliberate and malicious blindness ruling the day as they cheer on the death of liberty.
Your right...the soldiers will be there to kill you for writing this...no wait...they wont...because your FREE!
The right to be ignorant of your rights is what your celebrating with this thread. The "BoomBoomBoom" your hearing are the fireworks celebrating your freedom...not the firing squad illustrating point.
H
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Quote:Part of what we are celebrating is that people like you can throw these completely ignorant fits because you live in a country that is so free, stable and wealthy and has been so for so long that you have absolutely no context upon which to compare and therefore appreciate the value of what you have. The truth is that you are so spoiled on the freedom and wealth this country has that you have no clue how ungrateful you are. And that is truly something to celebrate.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Is anyone else pissed that this so-called holiday has become about the most hypocritical joke EVER?
Celebrating WHAT fucking "freedom" ?
The "freedom" to be declared an enemy combatant and sent off for "extraordinary rendition" ?
The "freedom" to be harrassed and spied upon ?
The "freedom" to be shaken down and felt up by the TSA ?
I'm very tempted to go outside a run a goddamn Gadsden flag up the pole - but I can't take the risk of being arrested and having my home seized for "Terrorism"... ain't that a fuckin laugh ?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Jong, thank you.
Why do people who think America sucks still living here? Get the F out of this country then!
You are FREE to go out and live your life the way YOU want to.
You are FREE to make your own decisions.
There wasnt a war over this for nothing!
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Quote:
Please read things before you respond. There would be no need for a ruling in the Senate, or anywhere else, if impeachment could only occur when one had done something wrong. If, as you claim, impeachment requires that the impeached person has done something to warrant impeachment then only guilty people could be impeached in the first place.
If only guilty people could be impeached then all impeached people would, necessarily, have to be guilty. That makes the idea of conviction redundant at best, why require conviction if a person need be proven guilty before they are even impeached? And before you quibble with the word "proven" consider this: The only way to actually know whether or not someone has done something to warrant impeachment is to have it proven (or disproven.)
Now you're making my case for me. Pick a position, and then stick with it. I'll say again. Bush and Cheney haven't even done anything which would 'rise to the level ' of impeachment. As evident by the absurd remarks by Jessie Jackson Jr, pushing for impeachment for Bush when there's absolutely no case. Bush was well with in his powers to commute Libby's prison sentence, that is undeniable Constitutional mandated power. THIS is what I'm talking about. Happy now ?
Quote:You said 'bribe'. It's right there in the text above your comment. Thats why I asked what the hell you're talking about. Your exact words - " On the side of Cheney you've got a question of involvement in bribery. That he accepted the money is not in question, nor is the fact that he lied about accepting the money. " There IS no question of bribery w/ Cheney. If you have anything of substance to say, then say it. That he accepted WHAT money? Your speaking as if your wild conspiracy theories (Daily KOS, D.U. ,moveon dot org,etc..) were 'common knowledge', when they aren't. You 'claim' your source is from the 'GOP controlled House, but you offer nothing to support your claim, only juvenile insults and specious remarks. Since I don't know your conspiracy theory, I must not care or know about anything that goes on in th is country. Wow, what an asinine comment. If you can't do better than that, then I'm wasting my time.
First off I didn't say there was any bribery, I said, "The only ambiguity lies in whether or not the money was a bribe." If you didn't catch that, whether or not it is a bribe is ambiguous. I don't know it was a bribe, I don't claim it was a bribe, and if it is a bribe I make no assumptions as to what purpose it was for (given the source of the money preferential treatment would make sense but I won't assume it.)
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I trust some will still be as vigilant toward our freedoms should the Democrats take over the White House, and control Congress as well. For it is their plans which truly are designed to strip us of our rights. ( Fairness Doctrine, for example ) There's nothing at all which Cheney or Bush have done to warrant impeachment, though I do understand such talk is inevitable. It is all that some simpletons can muster, when trying to voice some sort of contrary opinion. Lacking the mental capacity to formulate rational thought, they instead simply blurt out "Impeach" . Though if asked 'why?', they could not say.
Wow man.... Repuglican loyalist dillusions. I'm not saying that you're totally wrong, in fact I happen to agree with some of what you're saying. But Bush and Cheney didn't do anything to warrant impeachment? Truely you can't be that obtuse?
Bush and Cheney have pissed all over our Constitution from the very beginning (Cheney did it to line his pockets).... and what more, you're absolutely right about the Demoncrats. F Bush and Cheney and the current Communist Administration. They (Repuglicans) are supposed to be the party that doesn't do this to its people and their freedoms, and yet, they strenghtened the Centralized Government to levels that it had only imagined achieving in it's most tyrannical dreams and has caused the death of liberty and justice for all of us and our children and thier children.
Admittedly, the only thing I fear even more than 8 more years of this shit at the hand of that evil son of a bitch Giuliani, who I belive is infinately smarter and more capable of deception than Bush Jr., is having Hillary or Obama sitting on the throne in 18 months and having a Demon House and Demon Senate playing their yes man. Man.... you think we got it bad now. I'll be paying $200.00 for a carton of cigarettes, and $200.00 more a month for Universal Healthcare, and we'll all be singing the Communist Anthem at the ballgame in 8 years.
A Vote For Ron Paul, Is A Vote For FREEDOM.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Why don't you form your own country somewhere...
There were people who tried this not long ago. They were called Davidians. Just ask the charred skulls of the children how much the Government frowns upon what you're suggesting.
Of course, the Lifetime made for TV movie says that David raped all of the women in his commune, so I suppose they all got what they diserved, didn't they?
Go back to your mindless sitcoms and let the adults talk for a while prole.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
...what the fuck is the problem dude? What..lost a job? A girlfriend or wife? Your wallet? Had your identity stolen?...Lost your Ipod files?
No, actually, it's our nation we've lost. To neo-con shitheads who're raping her daily before our eyes. It's our very love for our country and the freedom she represents that prompt the cries for justice. You gotta problem with that? I guess you do.
Quote:
Why don't you form your own country somewhere...
That's plan 'b'. Plan 'a' is to save this one from from the forces attempting to ruin it (and the asshats supporting them - that's you!)
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Go back to your mindless sitcoms and let the adults talk for a while prole.
Ok...and let's look at your very ADULT words.....
"Repuglican loyalist dillusions"
"pissed over our Constitution"
" F Bush "
"8 more years of this shit"
and my personal favorite.." Repuglicans caused the death of liberty and justice"
Now, anyone can clearly see how adult your statements are, and I have given myself a strong talkin' to....to be more adult, to be more like 6string....thanks!
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Quote:
Originally posted by BionicBatman:
Jong, thank you.
Why do people who think America sucks still living here? Get the F out of this country then!
There wasnt a war over this for nothing!
Oh please, I consider it a pleasure just trying to help a fellow Browncoat get through his misery, hatred & un-happiness.
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Frem, thanks for posting this.
Your love for our country is obvious, as is you hatred of corporate controled/friendly government.
I salute ya Chrisisall
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"What? You're free!...free to pontificate and spew at your leisure in air-conditioned luxury ...certainly not being forced to strap dynamite sticks to your chest, and certainly not getting whipped to death 'cause your beard is too fucking short, and certainly not seeing your sister raped and stoned to death 'cause she blinked at some guy...right? Well that's the other side pal, I bleed not a drop, and sweat not a bead for them. Why don't you form your own country somewhere.."
If this is a statement that defines our freedoms...We are in bigger trouble than I thought. How about an illegal income tax, turning a cheek at a subpoena, a fairness doctrine, monopoly money from the private entity known as the Federal reserve bank, Patriot Act...etc. So, let us not use the "We are not as bad as a Muslim state" argument to defend the "we are still free" position....It is as laughable as shit pancakes..........Well, it's true.......
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Quote:Er, I think the context is in the comparing of government in the past to government now...in the past when government wanted to do something illegal/unconstitutional or whatever, it was done behind closed doors. Neo-Cons have made it a policy to do as they will in front of us, pushing the visible envelope of power that much further. These CAN BE the first steps toward fascism, and we must be aware. It also might all go away with following administrations. I believe the pendulum will swing back to the center, after going all wacky for so long. At least I HOPE that's what it's gonna do.....
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Part of what we are celebrating is that people like you can throw these completely ignorant fits because you live in a country that is so free, stable and wealthy and has been so for so long that you have absolutely no context upon which to compare and therefore appreciate the value of what you have.
Quote:One need not be grateful that one's country holds to it's Constitution, and conversely need not be ashamed of calling 'foul' when it doesn't.
The truth is that you are so spoiled on the freedom and wealth this country has that you have no clue how ungrateful you are.
I'm grateful to the powers that be for being born a citizen of this land, but I DEMAND my government operate according to the established rules set down long ago.
Plus: I'd like it to play nice, as well. But that's more a desire than a demand.....
Patriot Chrisisall
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Quote:Kaneman, my man!!!
Originally posted by kaneman:
If this is a statement that defines our freedoms...We are in bigger trouble than I thought. How about an illegal income tax, turning a cheek at a subpoena, a fairness doctrine, monopoly money from the private entity known as the Federal reserve bank, Patriot Act...etc. So, let us not use the "We are not as bad as a Muslim state" argument to defend the "we are still free" position....It is as laughable as shit pancakes..........Well, it's true.......
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Quote:Frem is not comparing anything. Frem is an extremist. And painting the American system as totalitarian and acting as if he or other Americans have nothing worth being grateful for can only be a consequences of ungrateful ignorance. You can disagree with the system or disapprove of certain political bodies or polices, but to suggest that we as Americans have nothing worth celebrating is nothing short of asinine. And it illustrates the complacency that has come to dominate many people’s political views in America. Many Americans have no context upon which to compare the transgressions they see or believe they see in America. They are so spoiled with immense freedom and wealth they can’t even imagine what real totalitarianism and real poverty is.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Er, I think the context is in the comparing of government in the past to government now...in the past when government wanted to do something illegal/unconstitutional or whatever, it was done behind closed doors. Neo-Cons have made it a policy to do as they will in front of us, pushing the visible envelope of power that much further. These CAN BE the first steps toward fascism, and we must be aware. It also might all go away with following administrations. I believe the pendulum will swing back to the center, after going all wacky for so long. At least I HOPE that's what it's gonna do.....
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Extremely pissed, yeah. But I don't see that he's pissing on the US system, more that he ranting about it being subverted...
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Frem is unleashing a fanatical political hatred of the US system as a whole. Frem is an extremist.
Quote:It can be, for some unlucky ones...
And painting the American system as totalitarian
Quote:I agree with that, there is much to celebrate and to be glad of.
You can disagree with the system or disapprove of certain political bodies or polices, but to suggest that we as Americans have nothing worth celebrating is nothing short of asinine.
Quote:I wouldn't use the word 'complacent' to describe Frem...
And it illustrates the complacency that has come to dominate many people’s political views in America.
Quote:If they're youngish, I guess you're correct...
Many Americans have no context upon which to compare the transgressions they see or believe they see in America.
Quote:
They are so spoiled with immense freedom and wealth they can’t even imagine what real totalitarianism and real poverty is.
This may be true for many, but I think many here at RWED have no problem imagining it. Personally, I've seen some severely poor folk near the Hatian side of the Dominican Republic. Made poverty in the US look enviable
.Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
If this is a statement that defines our freedoms...We are in bigger trouble than I thought. How about an illegal income tax, turning a cheek at a subpoena, a fairness doctrine, monopoly money from the private entity known as the Federal reserve bank, Patriot Act...etc. So, let us not use the "We are not as bad as a Muslim state" argument to defend the "we are still free" position....It is as laughable as shit pancakes..........Well, it's true.......
And let me be the first to state that I hate Demoncrats more than anyone on this board (and to use a phrase that Josswhachmacallit will love, I F-ing hate them and I challenge anyone to say they F-ing hate Demoncrats more than anyone else on this board) At the same time I think one would be a fool not to admit that Bush and Cheney are F-ing monsters and need to go. And I don't want to see an Obama or a Clinton in next time. I told you..... I F-ing hate Demoncrats.
A vote for Ron Paul, is a vote for LIBERTY!
Quote:
Chrisisall: If they're youngish, I guess you're correct...
Great post otherwise my man, and I really appreciate it, but I don't belive this part to be true. I figured a lot out on my own from reading books and seeing the world with my own eyes for once after I left home at 19 and things were a lot different. I think a lot of parents would love to teach their kids a lot of things they're afraid to because it might come back to them when they go to school and show their friends.
I mean, come on..... a screwdriver is considered a fracking weapon in school for cryin' out loud....
No wonder it's cheaper to ship most shit around the globe than to have it made here today. Our kids are being taught to be the "retards" of the world, for lack of a better term.....
But won't the mother's be proud when their kids participated in their touch football tournament where there was no score and no winners and losers so everybody feels good?
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:My joke failed.
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:Quote:
Chrisisall: If they're youngish, I guess you're correct...
Great post otherwise my man, and I really appreciate it, but I don't belive this part to be true.
I meant youngish as in babies, cause they can't read yet....
Can't all be winners...Chrisisall
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Before the toadies' reframing of the argument takes complete hold of this thread...
Here's the deal, these people defending the current government are Royalists. These people would never have faught a revolution against King George back in the day. These people think that as long as a person can rant on the internet and not be beheaded then they are free. Nevermind Frem's point that we faught a revolution against PRECISELY THE POLICIES THAT WE TAKE FOR GRANTED TODAY--times change, they'll say, and we obviously don't need as much freedom now as the founders did. Obviously, wealth trumps freedom in this country--or in the mind of the toadies, wealth IS freedom.
Again, the point of Frem's post is that we faught a war for independance, not against the Mulahs and Sharia, but against PRECISELY THE POLICIES THAT WE TAKE FOR GRANTED TODAY (income tax, standing army, being held indefinitely without trial, etc.--hello?). Frem is saying that American government has lost its way, is that so hard for folks to understand?
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:How come I can't make it that simple?
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Frem is saying that American government has lost its way, is that so hard for folks to understand?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What HK said.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Frem is saying that American government has lost its way, is that so hard for folks to understand?
Not hard to understand. Hard to admit. Especially for those who were fooled twice.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:Not hard to understand or admit. The difficulty comes in when you can see nothing but bad and you seek to paint the whole as such. The good is real too and it vastly outweighs the bad, so any real political view must take that into account or an intelligent person could assume people supporting that political view have not really thought things threw or they are pushing a bigoted, one-side or self-serving view. You can’t expect intelligent people to support you, if you’re vision is so clouded by extremism. It’s not really that hard to understand. If you can't celebrate or appreciate how lucky the vast majority of Americans are in living in this country, then I can’t see how you can expect anyone to take your complaints seriously or view them as anything other then extremism.
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Not hard to understand. Hard to admit. Especially for those who were fooled twice.
This is absolute nonsense:
“Ergo, in the end, we have accomplished NOTHING, save to replace one King George with another, and celebrating a lie of this magnitude disgusts me utterly, with rabid patriotism and ignorant self-imposed deliberate and malicious blindness ruling the day as they cheer on the death of liberty.”
It is either the ramblings of a lunatic, an attention-seeker or it is a lie. To say that we have accomplished nothing in our +200 years as a nation and that we are dictatorship run by a king is absolutely bullshit. It can’t possibly be true and no intelligent person would honestly make this claim and expect others to believe it. It is pure anti-Americanism, hatred of America. I’m okay with talking about America’s faults. I’m not okay with lies and extremist one-sided views that attempt to paint American as evil. And such views do not help the cause of fixing America's problems; all they do is hide those problems behind layers of extremism that no one can take seriously.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:You know, Finn, every time I show up at my doctor's office, he asks me what my problem is. I say to him, why do you always assume I have a problem, can't I just stop by to hang?
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The good is real too and it vastly outweighs the bad, so any real political view must take that into account or an intelligent person could assume people supporting that political view have not really thought things threw or they are pushing a bigoted, one-side or self-serving view.
Seriously, when one is discussing problems, it CAN come off like that's all there is. Frem comes off severe, but I love his devotion to his points. He's pissed because he cares. Of course "Nothing has been acomplished.." is wrong, literally. But I take phrases like that to be similar to me saying I "love" Serenity. Do I? Would I marry it?
Quote:Once again, for the cheap seats: Hating a particular administration, or corporate influence/control of public officials does not = anti-America. *sigh*
It is pure anti-Americanism, hatred of America.
I feel like I'm redundantly repeating myself Chrisisall
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Quote:So you can’t view the issues in anything other then colors of black and white? Well for me extremist positions have never really proven themselves to be the right positions. In fact, more often then not they tend to be those that society later comes to regret.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Seriously, when one is discussing problems, it CAN come off like that's all there is. Frem comes off severe, but I love his devotion to his points. He's pissed because he cares. Of course "Nothing has been acomplished.." is wrong, literally. But I take phrases like that to be similar to me saying I "love" Serenity. Do I? Would I marry it?
Quote:There is nothing cheap about it. It is anti-Americanism. The belief that America has done nothing in 200 years but promote its own dictatorship and that there is nothing about America that is worth appreciating or celebrating is anti-Americanism. How is that not anti-Americanism? Don’t accuse me of being cheap and then defend extremist one-sided positions for Frem’s sake.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Once again, for the cheap seats: Hating a particular administration, or corporate influence/control of public officials does not = anti-America. *sigh*
In any event, I don’t agree with Frem. He’s welcome to hold his extremist views, but I’m not going to apologize for them. America has plenty of problems, but there is enough good in American to spend at least one day appreciating how lucky we are to live in America. You’re welcome to disagree, and you can.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Whoh, pardner, I'm in agreement with this right here, but that ain't the point. To hyper-focus on an issue doesn't make it a black and white view. Bush's crew hasn't done ALL bad, but enough that it overshadows the good- for many. You're reacting to Frem's post as if it's ALL bad (It would seem). We need to dial down the emotion to see the real points here.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
So you can’t view the issues in anything other then colors of black and white? Well for me extremist positions have never really proven themselves to be the right positions.
One of the wheels are busted, and we need to fix it before the damage gets worse. That's all.
Quote:"Once again, for the cheap seats" is a line from the Last Boyscout, basically it means I'm sayin' it again louder. I don't know how much you spend on dates...
Quote:There is nothing cheap about it. It is anti-Americanism. The belief that America has done nothing in 200 years but promote its own dictatorship and that there is nothing about America that is worth appreciating or celebrating is anti-Americanism. How is that not anti-Americanism? Don’t accuse me of being cheap and then defend extremist one-sided positions for Frem’s sake.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Once again, for the cheap seats: Hating a particular administration, or corporate influence/control of public officials does not = anti-America. *sigh*
An example of Anti-Americanism is: not just seeing the cyber-porn, but judging that ALL Americans are responsible for it, they widely promote kiddie-porn, enjoy it, and ultimately will be destroyed by it!
See, I just think there are some problems w/it.
Savy? Chrisisall
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Quote:But that’s not what Frem is saying. He’s not saying there is a problem that we need to fix; he’s saying the whole thing is bad. I don’t know why you can’t see that or won’t see that or why you attempt to attribute some sort of moderate position to Frem, because it is not what he said. Either way, you don’t seem to disagree that his words at least are extremist; you just refuse to admit it is what he meant. Maybe you're right. Only Frem knows for sure what he meant, but I can’t read is mind, all I know is what he said, and I don't agree with it or feel it is a helpful dialogue.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Whoh, pardner, I'm in agreement with this right here, but that ain't the point. To hyper-focus on an issue doesn't make it a black and white view. Bush's crew hasn't done ALL bad, but enough that it overshadows the good- for many. You're reacting to Frem's post as if it's ALL bad (It would seem). We need to dial down the emotion to see the real points here.
One of the wheels are busted, and we need to fix it before the damage gets worse. That's all.
Quote:Most people have told me I’m a big spender, perhaps because I dated poor women?
Originally posted by chrisisall:
"Once again, for the cheap seats" is a line from the Last Boyscout, basically it means I'm sayin' it again louder. I don't know how much you spend on dates...
Quote:Yeah, could be. Another example is saying we are a dictatorship, have been for 200 years and that there is nothing worth appreciating in or of America.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
An example of Anti-Americanism is: not just seeing the cyber-porn, but judging that ALL Americans are responsible for it, they widely promote kiddie-porn, enjoy it, and ultimately will be destroyed by it!
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:If that's his TRUE point, then I wouldn't agree with it...If America truly sucked, we couldn't be talking like this right now.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
But that’s not what Frem is saying. He’s not saying there is a problem that we need to fix; he’s saying the whole thing is bad.
Quote:I just take that as zeal. Now if you want to make a case for economic dictatorship...hmmm, well, not so far...
Another example is saying we are a dictatorship, have been for 200 years and that there is nothing worth appreciating in or of America.
Still and all, it's a might rocky time, at the moment...(IMHO)
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:
Patriot Chrisisall
Better watch out, Chris. Posting something like this could get you arrested for treason, blasphemy, obscenity, AND desecrating the flag.
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* nevermind *
(deleted for the pointless of answering rovist demagoguery)
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Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
You know, I like to keep things civil
Sarge, just admit that this is a GREAT flag...
...let visions of Neo-Con scum objecting to this wash over you like soapsuds....
My America is a SEXY America
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Quote:Or the way it made you look like a fruitcake. Undeservingly, I’m sure. Let’s just all try to agree that this is a great flag:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
* nevermind *
(deleted for the pointless of answering rovist demagoguery)
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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You know Finn. I get real touchy about people telling me I hate America. So just don't do it, m'kay?
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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What I am *sayin* is that we threw a revolt for LESS than this, and in fact to defy this very treatment that is downright *celebrated* these days and that right does piss me off.
Politically, in the end we HAVE accomplished nothing - because at the end of the day our leadership indulges in far worse excesses, abuses and usurpations than King George would have ever *dreamed* of committing, while hordes of kool-aid drinking dittoheads cheer it right on, since it's not directed at THEM (yet), just folks THEY dislike.
Since when did it become extremism to want our Gov to follow it's own goddamned rules ?
Anarchist I may be, but time and time again I've stated that I would SETTLE for a halt to the endless abuses and usurpations, which is one reason I favor Ron Paul.
Beyond that, calling ME ignorant of our Governments foundations, history, and the abuses thereof is about as facetious a comment as humanly possible around here given previous threads discussing the matter, if anything it is those defending said abuses that would be ignorant of the Constitution and what it means, but it's "just a goddamn piece of paper" to you, right ?
It's far more than that to me, it's the very bedrock upon which our freedoms rest, which has been saturated, weakened, and is rotting from the unchecked corruption of power in all high offices top to bottom, regardless of party - and your attempts to make it a fuckin partisan issue show where you really stand, when it comes right down to it, it's ok when YOUR guys do it, but not the other guys, uh huh - go look up Hoyles Law, fool.
Just as the rethugs scare me with this corpo-fascist sig-heil shit, so too do the dimocrats with their "for your own good" nannyism, my life is MY business, innit ? but neither friggin one of em wants to leave it at that, and thus, a pox on both their houses, I say.
Damn right I'm angry, I want my fuckin country back - not this whitewash on a corpo-fascist imperial empire.
Let's talk about those "Freedoms" you SAY we have.
Start with say... the idea of simply walking down to the nearest hardware store and buying a pistol for self-defense, can you do it ? or do you have to practically BEG the states permission ?
Marriage, which is none of the Gov's biz being a religious contract... gotta go beg permission, yes ?
I wanna build a shed on my property, oh, wait.. can't do that... need a permit...
I decide the Gov has done a piss poor job and failed to faithfully execute their duty, and on april 15th I decide to tell em to go to hell - I can do that right ?
(Sarcasm)
I decide I wanna go fishing or hunting on my buddys property, it's all ok, right ? oh wait...
I decide I wanna smoke a phattie on my front porch, no one's gonna bother me about it, right ? oh wait...
The list goes on and on and on, and not one damned bit of it even the Gov's BUSINESS, much less in any way shape or form under it's control nor should it be - they've simply taken, and taken, and usurped, and taken, with damn fools cheering them on all the while.
For heavens sake these days you have to even BEG PERMISSION to PROTEST ? what kind of counter-intuitive IDIOCY is that ? and IF the powers that be even bother to ALLOW you, it'll be in a euphamistically named "Free Speech Zone" a mile away somewhere in the basement of a damned parking garage, whoopie, we're so free...
And all those firecrackers yer so damn happy to be setting off ? uh huh - and what's gonna happen should you get *caught* with them, most of em, eh ?
Oh the irony of our primary form of 'celebrating' our so-called 'freedom' being illegal.
Patriotism doesn't blind me, it outrages me, should I be HAPPY that the gov pisses all over the very foundations of our entire country, our entire philosophy ?
Should I be happy that we are a de-facto corporate oligarchy instead of a constitutional republic, no matter what it says on paper ?
Fuck that, you wanna define hatin america, you go right to the folks shredding constitutional rights and the kool-aid drinking pissants helpin em do it while chee
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Quote:Except that I never said such a thing.
Originally posted by SergeantX:
You know Finn. I get real touchy about people telling me I hate America. So just don't do it, m'kay?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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(ETA: whoopsie! Half these posts weren't here when I started this reply. Good to see Frem's return to the thread. Carry on, sir.)
Finn, here you skip over Frem's lengthy itemized list of comparisons between our current government's policies and those of King George the First of England (which, btw, our founding fathers just happened to go to war to end) and instead attack his most emotionally charged--and therefore most vulnerable--statement.
Of course, you say it would take a "mind reader" to understand Frem's point, because from where you sit, open-mindedness itself must look like a psychic power.
Plenty of intelligent folks here understood Frem's point perfectly without having to read his mind or even agree 100% (witness AURaptor's "mindreading" at the top of the thread). And btw, the "NOTHING" that Frem said we accomplished was the "nothing" of difference between Bush's policies and those of George the First listed in his post. I believe his contention was that we went to war against England for a greater purpose than simply changing ownership of the monarchy.
Why don't you refute his points instead of attacking his emotionalism as if that were his point?
And finally, none of what Frem wrote in his post claimed that America is "evil," nor that Bush is a "dictator"--George the First was not a dictator, he was king presiding over a constitutional monarchy.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Except that I never said such a thing.
Of course you didn't. Plausible deniability etc, etc,... And Bush never said that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11. Whatever. I'm not going to play the sophistry game with you. But the next time someone tries to squelch dissent with accusations "America Hater" the only reply I'm likely to give is a curt 'fuck you'. It's all that kind of nonsense deserves.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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USA now annexed by NWO in SPPNA, officially merged with Canada and Mexico, with millions of manufacturing and farming jobs exported to Communist China, official owner of Fox News via Wendi Deng, the Communist Chinese wife of Sir Rupert Murdoch Australian Knight of the British Empire.
Quote:
Wendi Murdoch (née Deng) (simplified Chinese: 邓文迪; pinyin: Dèng Wéndí, originally 邓文革; pinyin: Dèng Wéngé) (born 1968) is a Chinese born American businesswoman, and wife of News Corporation Chairman and CEO Rupert Murdoch.
Deng was born in Shandong, China, and raised in Xuzhou, the neighbouring province of Jiangsu.[1] She attended the local Xuzhou No. 1 Middle School. During high school, Deng's father relocated to Guangzhou to work at the People's Machinery Works, whilst Deng remained behind for a short while. Afterwards Deng joined her father in Guangzhou, and began medical studies. In 1987, at the age of 18, she met Jake Cherry (who is 30 years older than Deng), an American working for Guangzhou Engineering Factory, and his wife (Joyce Cherry), who started teaching Deng English. In 1988 Mr. and Mrs. Cherry sponsored a student visa for Deng and she moved to America to live with the Cherrys and to study at California State University.
In 2000, the Wall Street Journal published an article in which claims were made about Deng's personal history. The authors claimed that, in 1990, Jake Cherry left his wife to marry Deng after his wife found photos her husband had taken of Deng in a Guangzhou hotel room. Four months through their marriage, the article said, Jake Cherry asked Deng to leave when he found out she had been seeing another man. Similar reports about Deng's personal history have been published by The Daily Telegraph, ABC News, New York Magazine, The Monthly, and numerous other respectable sources in the media.
She divorced Cherry after two years of marriage.
She married Rupert Murdoch on June 25, 1999.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendi_Deng
Joss was right to predict the Alliance merger of Commie China and USA. No wonder Fox killed Firefly before its first episode.
In East Tennessee, we don't shoot fireworks on the 4th, we shoot firearms in our backyards. Just like the Founding Fathers.
"Dirty dirty whore!"
-Capt Malcolm Reynolds, Trash
DRIVE VS POLICE STATE: FREE TV EPISODES ONLINE
OOPS! CANCELLED!!! FINAL EPPS ON JULY 4 8PM EST
WTF?! FINAL EPPS FRIDAY 13 JULY 8PM EST!!! FOX SUX!
www.myspace.com/driveonfox
FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
https://video.indymedia.org/en/2007/02/716.shtml
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=8cd2bd0379340120e7a6ed00f2a53ee5
.1044556
www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv
Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/
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Quote:Several reasons. First of all, discussing anything with Frem is usually pretty difficult because he tends towards irrationalism and emotionalism. He’s basically just screaming about how awful the world is treatign him because he can’t get his way. It strikes me as being a little bit like trying to argue with a bratty eight year old, to be honest. So refuting his points is often rather frustrating at best.
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Why don't you refute his points instead of attacking his emotionalism as if that were his point?
Second, I don’t necessarily always disagree with his individual points; rather it is his broader theory of government oppressive that I don’t agree with. I think you should be able to sit out on your front porch and smoke a phattie (at least I think I do.) But that’s not the issue. Just because the law doesn’t allow you to do that, doesn’t mean we live under an oppressive government. In fact the government is simply responding to the will of the majority of voters. Most voters do not want certain drugs to be legal, regardless of whether I or Frem do or not. The area where I disagree with Frem is not just the irrational rhetoric, but I don’t define oppression by the government as being one person not getting their way. There are 200 million other voters in this country, and in many cases I suspect it is not government that is oppressing Frem, but the People. The government is just responding to the voters, and so the government is actually a government for the people and by the people (usually). Frem's problem is that he can't except the reality that this is not the utopia he believes he was promised, but it is a lot better then most alternatives.
And 200 years ago in the United States the last thing a Black man was worried about was whether he could sit out on his porch and smoke a phattie. In order to throw this fit of his, Frem ignores an awful lot. But that’s his opinion and he’s welcome to it. And if you agree with it, then that's fine too. But I don’t have to agree with it.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Finn, don't you ever wonder why so many independent-minded folk thing you're a boot-licker?
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Always look upstream.
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No.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Well, I guess that explains why you are the way you are!
I do wonder tho- how do you feel about warrantless wiretapping? Signing statments? Indefinite detention?
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:I don’t think any of it means America is not worth celebrating on July 4th, do you?
Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, I guess that explains why you are the way you are!
I do wonder tho- how do you feel about warrantless wiretapping? Signing statments? Indefinite detention?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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I guess I didn't ask clearly enough: Do you think they are Unconstitutional?
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:I guess I didn’t make myself clear enough, the issue here is not that there are things we don’t agree with, but rather despite these things, is America still worth celebrating? Is it?
Originally posted by SignyM:
I guess I didn't ask clearly enough: Do you think they are Unconstitutional?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Celebrating? Yes. There is much to be happy with: Woman have the vote and slaves were freed. But mindlessly celebrating? No.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. -- Samuel Adams
But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your States as well as in the Federal Government. -- Andrew Jackson,
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin
There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. -- Edmund Burke
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:What does this mean? Either you believe America is worth celebrating or you don’t, but this sounds like you’re saying that someone can celebrate America, as long as you agree with how they’re doing it or what they believe in.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Celebrating? Yes. Mindlessly celebrating? No.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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You asked me my opinion and I gave it, and now you're trying to imply that I'm going to ram it down everyone's throat? Obviously not.
But I personally think that the bar the Founding Fathers set for most people is too high. Most folks want to set off fireworks and have a brewski. As long as they're comfortable they really DON'T care much about freedom. And freedom really DOES require eternal vigilance because most people with a little bit of power will use that power to gain more, and it snowballs unless others actively oppose it.
I think the FF were well aware of the trend of power concentrating into fewer and fewer hands. Beign educated historians I'm sure they were aware of the fall of the Roman Republic, as well as the excesses of monarchies. They did their best to avoid it by creating three Branches (which Cheney is not part of!) and by creating the vote, which is a lot easier than having to shoot a government out of power. But despite all of these structural and procedural improvements, Ben Franklin was not particularly optimistic about our prospects. When asked about the form out government would take, he reputedly said "A Republic, if you can keep it".
I think we've kept the form but lost much of the substance.
PS: I think freedom is worth celebrating.
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
....and the asshats supporting them - that's you!)
SergeantX
That's the best you got Barney?...pretty sad and lame. Read my post again Herbert...you might learn something about life...live it and enjoy it...save your whiny bullshit for explaining to your mate why you can't perform properly due to your "nation being raped" mental problems.
I got better... read past post....enjoy the pancakes.....
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Read my post again Herbert...you might learn something about life...
Well I took your advice, and indeed, I did learn something. I learned don't think people should complain when they see their country being hijacked. That's too bad, cause we're not shutting up. What you guys are failing to face is that it's not America we hate. It's you. You and all the fear obsessed weenies that endorse the Bush administration. You've betrayed your country, and if we have to, we'll run your asses out of town on a rail to save it.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
What? You're free!...free to pontificate and spew at your leisure in air-conditioned luxury ...certainly not being forced to strap dynamite sticks to your chest, and certainly not getting whipped to death 'cause your beard is too fucking short, and certainly not seeing your sister raped and stoned to death 'cause she blinked at some guy...right? Well that's the other side pal, I bleed not a drop, and sweat not a bead for them. Why don't you form your own country somewhere.."
If this is a statement that defines our freedoms...We are in bigger trouble than I thought. How about an illegal income tax, turning a cheek at a subpoena, a fairness doctrine, monopoly money from the private entity known as the Federal reserve bank, Patriot Act...etc. So, let us not use the "We are not as bad as a Muslim state" argument to defend the "we are still free" position....It is as laughable as shit pancakes..........Well, it's true....
What the hell happened to you Kaneman? Where's all you abusive words?...You're not living up to your ID Tag. Has "the man" beaten you down so low that you are now ready to tow the line and be all nice and fuzzy? Jeeeez, I'm not ready to see that from you.
My tag may stay forever...If you call my post towing the line.............WoW!!! See..I have no prob telling people to rape and kill unwanted black fetuses so we can build a fence against illegal immigrants...but down play my right to say it...?and you got a little testy over my Chinese food post...........Don'tcaremuchisall.....Well, it's true....
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Quote:
My tag may stay forever...If you call my post towing the line.............WoW!!! See..I have no prob telling people to rape and kill unwanted black fetuses so we can build a fence against illegal immigrants...
I can vouch for Kane's black crack baby fence because I helped...
If you're not on our side of the fence, you'll have to look the crack babies in the eye!
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Give the sheep cake and circus and you can do whatever you want to behind their backs.
If there is any hope, it lies with the Proletariat...
Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious. "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Bold words Rosie...but I seem to recall that your ilk are the folks who always threaten/promise to leave the country every election, but none of you ever do.
Not true, Sally, oh how I do love Dr. Cox's character on scrubs. You're real original there Susan.
Anyhow... I hate Demoncrats and I hate celebrities who decide their political opinions matter, particularly the ones that say they'll leave and then don't. (I belive that Johnny Depp is the only one who threatened it and actually went through with it)
My hatered and distrust for our Government is bipartisan from top to bottom.
I love America. I love Freedom. I am a Patriot. Not a mindless zombie watching fireworks while I guzzle my beer and wave my flag around, and not have a clue what any of it means.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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LOL.... Sheeple..
I love how you still equate me with the MSNBC-Bush-Bashing-base as well. I hate the man, but admittedly, I was happier to have him in than either of his alternatives. Why would I give MSNBC's lies any more creedance than FOX News?
Anyhow, it is your interpretation of my words that I don't reflect what I believe in my writing. You are so closeminded that you would never even begin to be able to understand where I'm coming from, and talking to people like you is as effective as hitting my head repeatedly with a hammer.
Why should your kids give a rat's ass about their loss of freedom and what the Government has already taken, and why should they ever even know about what was already taken from them that their ancestors here had? It's not as if they're learning about these issues in a Federally Funded School System or your household. You just keep being a good consumer and watch FOX News (or MSNBC) and don't ask any questions, or teach your kids to ask why they're going to grow up having video cameras watching them all day at school "for their protection".
Meanwhile.... the adults are having a conversation here and you're becoming quite a pest.
If it truly is "total nothingness" to you, why don't you just disappear? I surely don't want you here questioning my patriotism. "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
What you guys are failing to face is that it's not America we hate. It's you. You and all the fear obsessed weenies that endorse the Bush administration. You've betrayed your country, and if we have to, we'll run your asses out of town on a rail to save it.
Hear, Hear, Sarge!
You get the tar, I'll get the feathers, and I'm sure Jack can find us a fencerail...
I find it rather ironic that the same slams bein thrown in my direction were also thrown in the direction of Patrick Henry when he said it would come to this, and explained how in chapter and verse, something we've addressed in other threads.
And for the record, given the choice, I'd do more than leave this country, I'd leave this PLANET - but till that's a viable option imma do everything in my power to drag the country of my birth back to the Constitutional Republic it's supposed to be.
Be damned to the Federalists, I say.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And for the record, given the choice, I'd do more than leave this country, I'd leave this PLANET - but till that's a viable option imma do everything in my power to drag the country of my birth back to the Constitutional Republic it's supposed to be.
Damn right Frem.... this planet is just getting too small. I'd love to go to another country that was better, if there were one, but I don't imagine that once you strip away all of the layers of bullshit surrounding the pride of any nation there's really any place on this rock that has it right, or anymore right than we do.
You're more than welcome to get in on my plans to build a rocket and start a pot and tobacco farm on the dark side of the moon. (Darkside, cause the FEDS will be less likely to detect me, and we can just use mirrors for light anyhow) Don't suppose they'd let me leave the atmosphere even if I figured out how to on my own though. Don't exactly have the tools necessary to execute those plans yet, either.
However, I do have this spare fencerail lying around here somewhere.... Wonder what we could use that for?
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:Not at all.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Should I be happy that we are a de-facto corporate oligarchy instead of a constitutional republic, no matter what it says on paper ?
But Frem, amidst all you understandable (and shared) anger, can you see a light at the end of this Neo-Con tunnel? Will corporate American government fall at some point, in favour or the rule of law and will of the peeps? Or are we ultimately headed toward revolution of some kind? Shrubbie's ratings domestically and worldwide is shrinking- is that not a sign of at least a partial awakening?
Just fishing here for something positive...
Chrisisall
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Quote:Well then, you implied is stongly...
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:Except that I never said such a thing.
Originally posted by SergeantX:
You know Finn. I get real touchy about people telling me I hate America. So just don't do it, m'kay?
"It is pure anti-Americanism, hatred of America."
Wouldn't ya say?
Just sayin' Chrisisall
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Quote:Much like season three of BSG...
Originally posted by SignyM:
I think we've kept the form but lost much of the substance.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Plausible deniability etc, etc,...
"Dude, what happened to all the slaves working on the south wall? Looks like they're all dead!"
"Ah, Imo-Tep said he wanted that side of the pyramid done today, no matter WHAT!"
"But he didn't say to work 'em to DEATH!!"
"Well...he didn't say NOT to...."
And there it began
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Quote:You do that a lot.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
then I'm wasting my time.
So do I Chrisisall
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Quote:Actually I define it by the level of corruption, the erosion of freedoms, and the condoned illegal activities perpetrated in the name of National Security that bring shame to America.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don’t define oppression by the government as being one person not getting their way.
This is a road I don't want my country on, and one, that in the past- for certain other countries, has led to all manner of unpeasantness.
Satan Clause is out there, best be prepared, son. Always be prepared.
Willis-quoting Chrisisall
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Quote:No. I didn't imply anything. What I said was that a particular paragraph written by Frem was pure anti-Americanism. (Whether that interpretation was Frem’s intent, I can’t say, but certainly it was a valid interpretation.) What Serg thinks this has to do with him hating America, one can only wonder. Perhaps he was just speaking rhetorically.
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Well then, you implied is stongly...
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:Except that I never said such a thing.
Originally posted by SergeantX:
You know Finn. I get real touchy about people telling me I hate America. So just don't do it, m'kay?
"It is pure anti-Americanism, hatred of America."
Wouldn't ya say?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Anticipatory pre-emptive strike?
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
What Serg thinks this has to do with him hating America, one can only wonder. Perhaps he was just speaking rhetorically.
Looking back, yeah, you weren't talking to or about him with that.
Chrisisall
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Quote:Nah, he has a point of view- that this system works- on most levels at least.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn, don't you ever wonder why so many independent-minded folk thing you're a boot-licker?
Some view American Government as in need of a tune-up, other think it needs a major overhaul.
I'd save 'boot-licker' for Hero and AU
The early bird gets to post Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Actually I define it by the level of corruption, the erosion of freedoms, and the condoned illegal activities perpetrated in the name of National Security that bring shame to America.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don’t define oppression by the government as being one person not getting their way.
This is a road I don't want my country on, and one, that in the past- for certain other countries, has led to all manner of unpeasantness.
And how different would things be if two airplanes hadn't flown into the World Trade Centre towers? Perhaps the present administration went overboard with the terrorist threat but something had to be done. Would everyone be happy if after the attacks Bush simply stated that we shall do nothing because we are free and liberty comes before life? What if there have been no further terror attacks on American soil because of the measures taken by this administration? What if Iraq was a preemptive strike (not when it was struck but who knows down the road)? Will the 'war on terror' ever end so the patriot act can be shelved? Will it be shelved by the next president regardless? Have there been other times in America's history where the future looked grim to some before the ship righted itself?
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Quote:Bush n' Cheney would be doing their Pinky and the Brain schemes to try and grab the power that Bin Laden served them on that silver platter.
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
And how different would things be if two airplanes hadn't flown into the World Trade Centre towers?
Quote:No.
Would everyone be happy if after the attacks Bush simply stated that we shall do nothing because we are free and liberty comes before life?
Quote:They (terrorists) mostly shot their wad with 911, I suspect.
What if there have been no further terror attacks on American soil because of the measures taken by this administration?
Quote:It wasn't, so we needn't discuss that point.
What if Iraq was a preemptive strike (not when it was struck but who knows down the road)?
Quote:Bureaucrats give up power...are you mad?
Will the 'war on terror' ever end so the patriot act can be shelved?
Quote:One can hope...
Will it be shelved by the next president regardless?
Quote:Yes, and I'm hoping our darkest days are almost behind us.
Have there been other times in America's history where the future looked grim to some before the ship righted itself?
Itemized Chrisisall
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What if we didn't overthrow a democratically elected leader and replace him with a brutal dictator back in 1953 ?
Full Circle - you DO shit, other shit follows, it's called cause and effect, and some day down the road, future generations will curse at US for the blowback from invading Iraq, just as imma cussin the bastards who propped up the Shah.
Is that any kinda legacy to leave our youth ?
No wonder they hate us so, not only watching us crush their freedoms before they even experience them, but many of them are indeed smart enough to know how badly our current international idiocy is going to blow back on them down the road.
As for hope, Chris - I am of the mind that Ford made a dire mistake in pardoning Tricky Dick, and that we should have cleaned house and shut down these totally *ruinous* mad dog alphabet agencies then, or it would not have come to this... and that leads us to the decision point we're soon to be at here.
Impeach em, not just Bush and Cheney, but a full-on purge, clean house of the whole little cabal, Kristol, Rove, Wolfie, Scooter and every single damned one of the madmen who got us into this, lock em up and pitch the keys into the sagebrush so their lingering influance a'al Kissinger won't keep coming BACK to haunt us over and over again.
Believe me, there's plenty and plenty of evidence for prosecutin em, RICO for starters, as what they've done most certainly constitutes a criminal conspiracy and subversion of our system of government for personal and idealogical gain without regard to the consequences, and in Scooters case this isn't exactly the first time he's played it fast and loose with classified info.
And enough with the damned gestapos already, DHS, TSA, CIA, NSA - all they've ever accomplished is contributing to the destruction of the society they're supposed to be protecting, we cannot win against dictators and madmen by BECOMING them, but rather refusing not only to bow to them, but also refusing to sacrifice what we are because of their actions, you don't break a siege by burning down your own castle, which is what we've mostly done in the past ten years or so.
Drag these jackboot goons out in public and put em on the stand like Church and Pike did (See Also: Church Commission) and let em have it, throw the ones who've really stepped over the line in prison with the rest of those mentioned above, and clean house, then slash the budgets, break their charters and be done with the whole misery.
Will some apologists scream "witch hunt" ?
Sure.
Will there probably be some personal agendas and partisan bickering ?
The nature of the thing assures it, alas.
BUT IT *MUST* BE DONE!
It's like bugbombing for roaches, you either put up with the temporary fallout, stink, and cleanup, or you put up with the roaches forevermore.
None of this pardon shit neither, Ford totally fucked it up by not cleaning house when he had the chance and the american people damn well wanted it cleaned - as they do now.
We cannot waste this second chance, cause we might not get another, we need to not only impeach tweedledumb and tweedledumber, we need to go right on down the list and sink the lot of em, no sweetheart deals, no pardons, no probation, no club fed - hard time in the pen for the lot of em.
Look at the list already, Abramoff, Ney, Foley, on and on it goes, a culture of corruption on BOTH sides of the political fence (That jackass who took the $100,000 bribe too) that's been allowed to fester so very long that at the bottom of it, it gets so damn sick and woo-woo *strange* that it's almost beyond belief, I don't even wanna think about where it'd go from there if unchecked for another decade.
So purge em, and do it now while the complete rampant arrogance of the current administration has pissed off enough joe sixpacks to support it, get the pitchforks and torches and go to town on them while we've got some chance, and some hope to do so - their own actions have stuck their necks out this time, and as stated in the beginning of this thread, it is out
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Quote:Al Qaeda just hated the WTC. It obstructed their view of Venus. But after they got rid of that, they were cool.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
They (terrorists) mostly shot their wad with 911, I suspect.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Re: Twin Towers.
What we *shoulda* done is respond like AMERICANS, put the damned things BACK up, downright immediately with all hands on the job, as a spit in the face of those who even dare to THINK we can be frightened or defeated in such a fashion.
All we got now is a big hole in the ground and a political sop instead.
I'm also of the mind that all american flagpoles oughta have an extra two feet on em, painted bright silver, and when the enemies of liberty or our nation attempt to cow or threaten us, we should raise old glory HIGHER, in pure american defiance of tyranny - but that's not the course we've taken.
I am NOT afraid of terrorists, to be so is to hand them victory without even a fight.
-F
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Quote:[sarcasm]Why even bring this up, Frem? Do you expect us to learn from our mistakes? You must be mad.[/sarcasm]
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
What if we didn't overthrow a democratically elected leader and replace him with a brutal dictator back in 1953 ?
Quote:I'm for that.
Impeach em, not just Bush and Cheney, but a full-on purge, clean house of the whole little cabal, Kristol, Rove, Wolfie, Scooter and every single damned one of the madmen who got us into this
Definitely. Chrisisall
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Quote:Whackin' Al-Queda in Afghanistan was good, but why not round them up and make the prisoners work on a rebuild-chain-gang?
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Re: Twin Towers.
What we *shoulda* done is respond like AMERICANS, put the damned things BACK up, downright immediately with all hands on the job, as a spit in the face of those who even dare to THINK we can be frightened or defeated in such a fashion.
Make 'em useful.
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Not that it ain't been said before, mind you.
But let's dump the usual politically correct cut and paste editing and post the WHOLE thing here as a reference - rather than the cleaned and clipped american public school history class version.
No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope that it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen, if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve.
This is no time for ceremony. The question before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty towards the majesty of heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.
Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren, till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation?
For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth -- to know the worst and to provide for it. I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided; and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years, to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House?
Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with these warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation -- the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motives for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies?
No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us; they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer on the subject? Nothing.
We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves longer.
Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical h
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Nice to read again.
Thankful Chrisisall
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That was worth all the fireworks. Thanks Frem.
Oh BTW- Wudja hand me a brewski?
Thanks
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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I return to discover this bored has not changed one bit but stayed full of Godless American-haters and theives of the soul! People KILLED Jesus so his rating was low too at one time so President Bushes low ratings are just fine with ME!!!!!!!!!!
All you American citizens that dont celebrate Our Fourth Of july are anti-Americans!!!
You are fools of the Nth degree, and of course will go to the resting place you deserve- HELL, and there suffer your worst nightmares night and day for all eternity, and I will be laughing at you with the Angels!!!
President Bush has stayed true to course in protecting Gods land of ours, and you redicule him endlessly it never stops!!!!!!!!!!!
You are all good at quoting parts from the Constitution where it says to throw out your government when it suits you but not quoting the parts where ir refrences GOD as the reason we exist as a country!!!
The more things change the more YOU idiots remain the same as always!!!!!!!!!!!
I extended my hand to you lost idiots last time and now I just come to gloat!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I remember all your names too.
I wrote them down and I see some new ones to take.
Pray terrorists dont kill you before you make peace with HIM!!! The LORD GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The one that I and President Bush serve!!!!!!!!
TheRightStuffReturns
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Oh boy, I can just see the new signatures now.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Re: Twin Towers.
What we *shoulda* done is respond like AMERICANS, put the damned things BACK up, downright immediately with all hands on the job, as a spit in the face of those who even dare to THINK we can be frightened or defeated in such a fashion.
The American thing to do would be to build them again 20 feet higher with AA missiles on the roof.
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheRightStuffReturns:
I return to discover this bored has not changed one bit but stayed full of Godless American-haters and theives of the soul!
How's it hangin' TRSR? Long time no vomit.
'Bored' now? (That's a Buffy refrence, BTW)
I see you're still dictionary-challenged.
(This is too easy....)
Effue, and the Angels you rode in on
And remember; I'm EVIL! I'll swallow your SOUL!
Dead by dawn dead by dawn dead by dawn Chrisisall
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Heya Siggy
Sounds about like we need to call in a fire mission from the I.A.V Dortmunder (gold).
http://www.fireflyfans.net/reference.asp?r=585
http://www.greatlakesbrewing.com/beerProfile.php?beer_id=00000001
For a friendly fire bombing run - so we can all get bombed together... heaven knows I am.
-F
(Edit: Fletch ? DAMN STRAIGHT.)
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:
Originally posted by TheRightStuffReturns:
I return to discover this bored has not changed one bit but stayed full of Godless American-haters and theives of the soul!
How's it hangin' TRSR? Long time no vomit.
'Bored' now? (That's a Buffy refrence, BTW)
I see you're still dictionary-challenged.
(This is too easy....)
Effue, and the Angels you rode in on
And remember; I'm EVIL! I'll swallow your SOUL!
Not as evil as where you will end your days. I rember you threatened me last time with violence and violence is how it will go for you in the end!!!!!!!!You cant swallow my soul but SATAN CAN SWALLOW YOURS!!!!!!!!!!!
TheRightStuffReturns
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Quote:Drunkenness and debochery is the way of Satan to get hold of your souls you idiots!!!!!!!!!I have to go now.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Heya Siggy
Sounds about like we need to call in a fire mission from the I.A.V Dortmunder (gold).
http://www.fireflyfans.net/reference.asp?r=585
http://www.greatlakesbrewing.com/beerProfile.php?beer_id=00000001
For a friendly fire bombing run - so we can all get bombed together... heaven knows I am.
-F
(Edit: Fletch ? DAMN STRAIGHT.)
TheRightStuffReturns
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