"Bored now."

POSTED BY: Knibblet
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 8, 2004 20:04
VIEWED: 10988
PAGE 1 of 1

KNIBBLET

Tuesday, March 23, 2004 5:55 PM

I just rewatched the episode wherein Cordi wished that Buffy had never come to Sunnydale.

I hadn't noticed that the same "Bored now" comment Willow gave Warren when she flayed him was what Vamp Willow said to Cordelia when Vamp Xander was going to eat the prom queen.

That's what I like - the teensy touches that mean so much. Right before they flay or eat you.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

KILLEDBYRIVERSBRAIN

Wednesday, March 24, 2004 12:02 AM

Yep, I liked that myself. Also nice Willow mentioned vamp Willow seemed kind of gay. A couple of seasons later, Willow is gay. As you say, these kinds of references are just awesome.

I hope you like Guinness, sir. I find it a refreshing substitute for . . . food.
-Jack O'Neill

LISSA

Wednesday, March 24, 2004 12:59 AM

I love "bored now" :) teeheehee...

on the gay thing, the joke was continued in season 6's tabula rasa. memory-wiped willow says "and i think i'm kinda gay" just like in the wish. fun stuff:)

~lissa, spwhore

IDEFIX

Wednesday, March 24, 2004 12:49 PM

I also liked when Willow said "I think I did pretty well" or something to that effect, in the EP where Xander got split in two and one of them is wigged out about it and says something like "Wait til you meet an evil copy of you and see how you handle it".

that's the moments where you just have to smile. he's forgotten about it at the moment but Willow has not and we have neither.

...and "bored now" is so cool a quote. I think I have to put that in a sig somewhere. I can actually hear her say it whenever I read it. Willow is the cutest even when she's evil.

Idefix

GHOULMAN

Tuesday, March 30, 2004 5:27 PM

'Bored now' is Willows inner self screaming for love. It signifies her shell like existance in spite of her growth as a woman. When Willow forgets what a special person she is she can be very self-destructive. She regresses into that little schoolgirl who is 'bored' (a passive aggressive responce) with the world around her.

It also shows that Willow has a deep emptyness that can come out in irrational violence. Veins and all.

MAUGWAI

Tuesday, March 30, 2004 5:31 PM

I also like in season seven when Buffy has to kill Anya and reminds Willow that she told her to "kick his ass" during "Becoming, part 2" in second season, only it was Xander who told her Willow said that when she never did. And when Willow objected to Buffy's comment, Xander cut Willow off so Buffy would never find out what he did. That's a really long memory on that reference.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

GHOULMAN

Thursday, April 1, 2004 8:32 PM

^^^ Brill! YOU are a good viewer. PAying attention to the continuity. Not just within the show itself, but continuity over 6 seasons. SIX! Frellin' amazing moment there. Glad you mentioned it!

Willow: "I never said that..."
And Xander cuts here off.

And as we all know, the signifigance was that Xander wanted Angel gone (Xander always hated Angel, soul or not) and so lied to Buffy that Willow could get Angels' soul back in time (with a spell).

All the characters acting just as they should despite the consequences. Truely granite hard characterization. Really, really, brill stuff. So good. Makes ER look like an afternoon soap. Wow. *gush*... ok, I'll stop lovin' the Joss writing. Hell no! I just can't! It's too great!!!

KNIBBLET

Thursday, April 1, 2004 8:56 PM

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who said "AHAH! Xander is busted ... finally ..." only to see it go by.

There are many examples of it throughout the Buffy 'verse. Canon was always respected, gotta respect that in your basic demons.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

GHOULMAN

Friday, April 2, 2004 3:06 PM

^^^ it's continuity. Canon is something Star Trek nerds use to nail down detailed timelines and tech evolution, etc. Which is great fun if you're an aspiring engineer. It's not important to story telling as long as you don't really frell up something obvious ... like Romulans NOT having invisibility.

Continuity in story telling is a sign of a mature drama. Yeah Joss! :)

GHOULMAN

Friday, April 2, 2004 3:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:

Willow: "I never said that..."
And Xander cuts her off.

And as we all know, the signifigance was that Xander wanted Angel gone (Xander always hated Angel, soul or not) and so lied to Buffy that Willow could get Angels' soul back in time (with a spell).

Ghoulman is a moron... that sentance is backwards. <--(in self) It should read Xander DIDN'T tell Buffy. Instead of telling the Buffster what Willow said Xander lied and told Buffy to "kick his ass".

Please continue with your regular reading.

FARWALL

Sunday, May 9, 2004 11:41 PM

Have to say, I love the delivery of the phrase "bored now" and everyone I knew at Uni (litterally everyone I hung out with at Uni where big buffy fans, and this was a group of upto 40 people) picked up on it straight away and addopted it as common tongue (along with many, many other phrases and gramatical quirkes from Buffy, or, as I now realise from having seen Firefly, from Joss Whedon).
So it just seemed completely natural to see Willow use it again 4, or so, seasons later.

----------
I have no faith but it's all that I want
to be loved and believe
in my soul.

AURAPTOR

Sunday, May 23, 2004 4:35 PM

For me, 'Bored now' is Willow's most vivid quote. Something about it and / or its delivery by Willow just stands out. Hi-larious. Agree lots w/ what was already said here. Just one of those lines that made me chuckle to myself every time I think of it. No shortage of those, but still.... good thread.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

OBJECTIVEASSESSMENT

Thursday, May 27, 2004 8:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:

Willow: "I never said that..."
And Xander cuts here off.

And as we all know, the signifigance was that Xander wanted Angel gone (Xander always hated Angel, soul or not) and so lied to Buffy that Willow could get Angels' soul back in time (with a spell).

I beg to differ. I think Xander didn't tell Buffy about the spell because, if he did, then Buffy would have went into the fight half hearted, not wanting to kill Angelus incase Willow could turn him back into Angel. If Buffy done this she would probably have been killed. While not condoning Xander's behaviour I think he did what he thought was best for Buffy, just like he did all through the series.

"When you can't run...you crawl...and when you can't crawl...when you can't do that..."
"Find someone to carry you"

NUR

Thursday, May 27, 2004 8:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
For me, 'Bored now' is Willow's most vivid quote. Something about it and / or its delivery by Willow just stands out.

I agree completely, if someone asked me to pick a completely random Willow quote "Bored now, want to play." would be the first thing to jump into my head. Someone mentioned earlier that they hear Willow's voice everytime they read it and I'm exactly the same way. It was just one of those perfectly executed moments. This is a little off topic but its the same for Drucilla's "It fills my head with singing." and Simon's "Your patient should be dead." They just seem to fit into that little nook of brain reserved for those characters and always come up when pondering.

http://www.thecherryorchard.net

Those who restrain desire, do so because thiers is weak enough to be restrained.
-William Blake

O my Lord! bestow wisdom on me, and join me with the righteous.
-Qur'an 26:83

LENNIER

Friday, May 28, 2004 12:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
'Bored now' is Willows inner self screaming for love. It signifies her shell like existance in spite of her growth as a woman. When Willow forgets what a special person she is she can be very self-destructive. She regresses into that little schoolgirl who is 'bored' (a passive aggressive responce) with the world around her.

It also shows that Willow has a deep emptyness that can come out in irrational violence. Veins and all.

Great comments!
I have a similar take on her, though for me the key is all in Willows self-hate and self-doubt (as best illustrated by her dream in "Restless"), and she feels as if she is worthless on a fundamental level, and that everything good about her are things that she has built up as an outside 'shell', but that aren't really 'her' (this is not true, though there is a some tiny truth to it ...but Willow believes it overly much, and believes it on a 'deep' level that she's not entirely aware of). All of the coolness etc. that she's built up, she feels is a sham (again, as illustrated by Restless, though reinforced by SO many other things). Her self-hate/self-doubt, as is common, led her to use magic as a way to escape herself (magic as a drug, and also as power, or as a metaphor for anything we can use to escape) ...especially after loosing Tara, another 'external' thing that gave her some value.
Here's a better way to put it: she *thinks* she can only find value through things outside of herself. Without Tara, she has no value, and she can't face that, and has to escape into another world where these things don't matter. First it was magic-as-drug/pleasure, and finally it was magic as a way to shut out the world completely (when Tara died), as a way of escaping reality and denying her emotions (the pain emotions that is ...the anger emotions were the 'safe' ones she could escape into). That's how she became a 'different person' as evil Willow, because she had escaped herself ...though enough of her remains that this emotion-less moral-less vessel is equivalent to vampire-Willow (making her use that same phrase 'bored now').
Well, i'm writing this rushed, so it may not all be right, but you probably get the idea (in fact, you've probably thought of this all already!).

(There's also a side point about how Willow's morality was always a bit thin, and usually it wasn't a problem simply because she always is trying to *please* everyone, and wants to be liked ....but I won't get into that)

by the way, this does not apply so much to her s7 self, especially not at the end of the season, where she begins to really grow past this. But it applies for most of s1-s6 (and I'm not saying it's often 'on the surface', I'm not saying she's wallowing in self-hate all the time, though you do see the self-doubt constantly even in her speech-style), it's just something that I think is hiding on a deep level, and 'exploded' outwards in season 6.

Also, I'm failing to articulate the most important part, which is the way Willow escaped into POWER ...it was really the power that magic gave her which allowed her to escape from herself and allowed her to take value from something outside of herself (and we see this escape into power take many different forms in the different episodes).
And this sort of escape from self was a lot of what s6 was about (ties into all of Buffy's stuff with Spike, and even a lot of the other characters; Warren is the best example, on the 'dark' side, and is a great foil for Willow too).
I emphasize this power thing because a lot of fans became overly fixated on the drug metaphor, but really that was just one classic way to express a larger problem, something that can apply to any circumstance where we do something to escape something we don't like; there was only the one episode that really hit the drug thing on the end, and the other episodes (though occasionally making the references) were about something more general
(and even in that episode, I would argue that drugs are a metaphor for the way that

GHOULMAN

Friday, May 28, 2004 7:00 PM

Terrific and detailed comments Lennier ! Great comments indeed. Right back at ya!

Is it too obvious I've a crush on Willow? Tee hee...

JOHNCLARK

Friday, May 28, 2004 7:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Terrific and detailed comments Lennier ! Great comments indeed. Right back at ya!

Is it too obvious I've a crush on Willow? Tee hee...

Who doesn't?

Lennier - good analysis

---------------------------------------------
Experience has taught me that interest begets expectation, and expectation begets disappointment, so the key to avoiding disappointment is to avoid interest. A=B=C=A, or whatever

ARAWAEN

Friday, May 28, 2004 7:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
^^^ it's continuity. Canon is something Star Trek nerds use to nail down detailed timelines and tech evolution, etc. Which is great fun if you're an aspiring engineer. It's not important to story telling as long as you don't really frell up something obvious ... like Romulans NOT having invisibility.

I don't think trek can fairly use the word continuity anymore.

Quote:

Continuity in story telling is a sign of a mature drama. Yeah Joss! :)

Unfortunately it also seems to be a big turn off for tv executives. They claim new people can't get into the show. I think it is 'go-se' because I didn't start watching Buffy until 3rd season and I became addicted nonetheless.

Arawaen

Um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm Angry. And I'm Armed.

LENNIER

Saturday, May 29, 2004 10:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JohnClark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Terrific and detailed comments Lennier ! Great comments indeed. Right back at ya!

Is it too obvious I've a crush on Willow? Tee hee...

Who doesn't?

Lennier - good analysis

I second that 'who doesn't'!!

Thanks! you know, I have to say, when I try to talk about this sort of stuff on Buffy boards I usually get a "shut yer hole, season 6 sucks and your comments about Willow are wrong". That is just to give you an idea of how much I appreciate your appreciation.

Thank you ever so very much for not 'attacking' me.

SOUTHERNMERC

Saturday, May 29, 2004 11:04 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Continuity in story telling is a sign of a mature drama. Yeah Joss! :)

Unfortunately it also seems to be a big turn off for tv executives. They claim new people can't get into the show. I think it is 'go-se' because I didn't start watching Buffy until 3rd season and I became addicted nonetheless.

TV execs can be stupid like that. I didn't get into Buffy until season six! Then I just HAD to watch the other seasons...even went out and bought them all on DVD (goin through the first season I watched right now actually, season 6)!

Jayne: "See, Vera? You get dressed up, you get taken someplace fun!"

GHOULMAN

Sunday, May 30, 2004 3:22 PM

Lennier wrote:

Quote:

when I try to talk about this sort of stuff on Buffy boards I usually get a "shut yer hole, season 6 sucks and your comments about Willow are wrong".

What?!???

Let me get this straight... the Buffy FANS (fans thay say eh?) don't get this? I'm completely shocked and dismayed. What the frell is that all about???

It's rather plain from what I've read that your assessment of Willows' psycological makeup is bang on. And I'm sure I've read a few Marti, Tim, Joss interviews that would pan out that conclusion.

They can't be real fans, just kids who like Buffys' clothes?

Lennier, you are right on about Willow. If anyone tells ya different thay aren't paying attention. And I apparently ride a really high falutin' horse so I know I'm right and everyone is intitled to my opinion.

IDEFIX

Sunday, May 30, 2004 4:25 PM

I have to third the "who doesn't" comment. although I'm usually into boys I can't resist Willow. and I'm almost sure no sane and healthy person should be able to resist Willow.

and about her 'problems' with magic: I have to say it seemed to me about the way you described it. she always felt useless, unimportant, not adequate and had to look for something to define herself by. magic was a way to be special and a way to help Buffy fight the good fight. be a productive part of the team.

Xander was about in the same place to start with but he somhow managed to define himself by being himself (steady, brave, goodnatured, optimistic) and being ok with it. he really treasured every time someone (Buffy or Giles) told him he did good or he was important but he seemed to be able to live with being just Joe Normal most of the time. he fetched the snackfood and helped as well as he could and somehow he was centered enough in his own personality. The Zeppo was a whole episode all about how Xander coped with being normal. and cope he did.

he did what Willow should have done. instead Willow was the computer crack and it wasn't enough for her. she was too small and not strong enough to help with the fighting and Giles was too much the brain of the gang for her intellect to be much needed and even if it were it wasn't good enough. she was always from the beginning to the end searching for something to make herself better or worth anything to the gang. and I think she was always easy to seduce by power of any kind, because she maybe felt powerless growing up, being ignored and analysed by her parents and being kicked around by people like Cordy. and she always was defensive and secretive about her search for power. she always answered any kind of caution with "Don't you trust me? Don't you think I'm good enough?". and there's probably no right answer to that one if you're in Giles' or Buffy's shoes. the warnings are valid but if she perceives it as a sign of untrustworthiness or lack of ability on he side it has to drive her deeper into the seek for power and something to make her strong and useful.
I think it had to blow up sooner or later and it was very well handled in S6.

Idefix

LENNIER

Monday, May 31, 2004 2:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Lennier wrote:
Quote:

when I try to talk about this sort of stuff on Buffy boards I usually get a "shut yer hole, season 6 sucks and your comments about Willow are wrong".

What?!???

Let me get this straight... the Buffy FANS (fans thay say eh?) don't get this? I'm completely shocked and dismayed. What the frell is that all about???

It's rather plain from what I've read that your assessment of Willows' psycological makeup is bang on. And I'm sure I've read a few Marti, Tim, Joss interviews that would pan out that conclusion.

They can't be real fans, just kids who like Buffys' clothes?

Lennier, you are right on about Willow. If anyone tells ya different thay aren't paying attention. And I apparently ride a really high falutin' horse so I know I'm right and everyone is intitled to my opinion.

thank you so much!

As for their reaction, there are certainly many 'mature' adults who are saying this (at least judging by their wording), this isn't just a case of some annoying kids/teens (though I'm sure that accounts for a good portion of it). The problem is, a lot of Buffy fans loved things about the first few seasons so much that they can't let go, and can't grow up with the show, or appreciate the different artistic directions joss wanted to go in. A lot of them feel betrayed by what happened later. Personally, I think the real quality showed up in seasons 4 - 6 (not that 2 and 3 aren't also brilliant and well made), even though I admit they don't tend to have the kind of enjoyable or surprising emotional payoff that the early seasons did. So when you even try to talk about stuff relating to season 6, there's a huge bias against it by many *many* fans (and I've found people on boards tend to react before thinking, or else form a fixed opinion, and may have some semi-logical reasons for it, but not be willing to take a second look at their reasons).

A lot of people seem to be of the opinion that Willow's personality in season 6 is completely inconsistent with what came before (which may be true on the shallowest level, but...), and that the writers were basically screwing up for the entire season. A lot of people especially had problems with the drug metaphor, they thought the character would never do that, and that it was just a cliche (but what isn't on Buffy or Firefly? --it's all about re-understanding cliches that we took for granted and making new use and creative of them), and they thought "Wrecked" was an 'after school special' (which is ridiculous, 'cause it wasn't at all about saying 'drugs are bad', it was just using the drug metaphor as an important part of Willow's journey, and showed that this particular way of using 'drugs', or anything equivalent could be bad ...as I said, I think they generalized it to being a universal problem with the transition-to-adulthood that was much larger than drugs specifically. And in fact, I think it's just about the best and most meaningful treatment of drugs that I've ever seen on tv, even though it wasn't 'the point' in the way that some people seemed to think it was (ie. it wasn't an episode constructed to be a pedantic message about drugs!). )
sorry to rant, I get annoyed about this stuff.

Anyhow, a combination of Willow's shift in surface behaviour, with people's distaste for season 6 and the later seasons in general, with the drug stuff that a lot of people reacted badly too (which I'll add, I think is a 'knee jerk' reaction ...we've just seen too many badly-done drug stories that whenever we see it we assume it must be bad, even in a case like "Wrecked" where it's used brilliantly), a combination of all this stuff makes people just blank out anything I have to say in trying to explain Willow's character in relation to those events. Some people I've talked to do have some developed arguements, but it always seems as if there's an obvious flaw in them that I can't get them to notice, and I can't get them to listen to my own lo

SOUTHERNMERC

Monday, May 31, 2004 3:01 AM

The seasons I liked best were, in order of fav to least: five, two, three, seven, six, one, and four. There are many reasons I put them in this order, the main is not just how well they were put together (which would put seasons six and seven right behind five in the favs slot), but how I felt about that year in general. Season seven had FF starting, and ending, during that run, so there are some issues there. Season six WAS a downer and, tho I loved how much it emulated real life, "down" episodes hit me rather hard emotionally. Great season, no doubt, and a WONDERFUL ending (Xander saves the world? Woo hoo!), but what a rough ride! I think the main detractors from the later seasons are just used to normal, SAFE, TV, which doesn't take its characters to such incredible depths. I guess many were just expecting Willow to "get over it" in an episode or two and move on. Very UNLIKE real life.

Jayne: "See, Vera? You get dressed up, you get taken someplace fun!"

GHOULMAN

Tuesday, June 1, 2004 3:38 PM

Lennier,
Season 6 was the best season in my opinion as the characters went well beyond mere TV melo-drama.

The characters "grew up" in believable ways. Human ways. Real ways. So... you know, did one feel betrayed when Hamlet killed Ophilia? Jesus... who are these people that didn't like season 6? Do they hate the ep the Body? That show was what got me interested in Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Joss Whedon in general.

And I have a high horse to prove it!

Willow is the ONLY character who could fall into a "drug" habit (metaphorically or not). Willow did these things all the time, whether it was drugs or magic wasn't the point. Willow would scare her mother or get irrational - and these things are psychological signs that she could, in fact, loose herself.

If the so called fans can't see this they are in for a big surprise when they grow up and thier own friends start behaving in so called "out of character" ways *chuckle*... some peoples children. Honestly!

And Mari Noxon (name right?) is right to say the fans got what they need. Anything else would be pandering... which is what most culture does and which is why most culture is crap.

Lennier... have you ever thought about becoming a writer? You know character!

GHOULMAN

Tuesday, June 1, 2004 3:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
SNIP!er or later and it was very well handled in S6.

Idefix

You know, if one looked I bet we could find examples that demonstrate your ruminations here. Nice work. :)

LENNIER

Sunday, June 6, 2004 12:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Lennier,
Season 6 was the best season in my opinion as the characters went well beyond mere TV melo-drama.

just for the record (though you probably didn't mean it this way), Buffy never was mere tv melodrama ...in the earlier seasons, it was too much an action/comedy/horror (and with a point) to be that, and in the later seasons, as you say, the characters grew up in believable ways (and also, the thematic content became stronger, which you don't see in tv melodrama) ...some people argue that the show became blandly melodramatic in the later seasons, that it was only creative initially ...I agree that it is 'more' like a melodrama in the later seasons (and I agree that it went 'dangerously' close to straight melodrama in certain episodes of season 6), but only in the sense that there was more drama and it was more about the characters for their own sake, which isn't itself a bad thing, as long as they don't do totally-straight-drama (which never actually happened, it always stayed a little off-key) for several episodes in a row, and as long as it still means something (drama is only bad in tv because most tv does it badly, and without a thematic reason, or with bad performances, or without a style, or with characters who are not complex enough or who don't have any 'personality', ie. things that make them unique and strange).

Also, I do think the performances became much more complex in the later seasons, 'despite' being more dramatic; the early season may have been obvious about being 'different', but the later seasons have carried that forward into more subtle territory ...particularly, the way the comedy intermingles with all the other styles becomes much more 'refined' (for lack of a better word) and integrated in the later seasons. In the first 2 seasons, you can 'see' how the styles collide, but starting with season 3, I think they actually began creating a 'new' style ...when I try to really explain it or separate out its parts, my head starts to hurt, because you can't ...they truly 'fused' everything together.
ok, I'm writing this quickly and vaguely, this may not make perfect sense... all I mean to say is that in my opinion the style is even more complex in later seasons, even though it's not as obviously 'weird' (also, part of that lack of weirdness is just that we've gotten used to it---anyone jumping in to the show still says "what the...?"), and at the same time, I appreciate that the early seasons were more blunt about it, I appreciate that as an essential phase of the show that had its own kind of value (though season 1, only barely *g*).

Since you mentioned that in your opinion season 6 is the best season, I'll just say that myself I feel that season 4 and 5 and 6 are almost exactly equal in quality (though each for COMPLETELY different reasons). And actually, as for example one of the posts by someone in this thread, I think season 4 needs defending a lot more than season 6 (season 6 got a louder negative response, but it has a LOT of people defending it, and rightly so; season 4 doesn't have so many people actively defending it, but I think it deserves it just as much---it was the intellectual/experimental season, and in a way I think the actors and writers hit the top of their game that season, just in terms of execution. In a way it's the season that is most clearly making an effort to put the show into 'art' territory; it was the first season to have a fully-coherent set of ideas developed across the season in almost every single episode, in every character and subtext ...though admitedly, the themes themselves are partly about the incoherency of exploration and discovery, so when joss calls the season 'weirdly incoherent' he's also right, and that's exactly how the season had to be to express its ideas; also, season 4 had some of their best directing and cinematography).

Quote:

The characters "grew up" in believable ways. Human ways. Real ways. So... you know, did one feel betrayed when Hamlet killed Ophilia? Jesus

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GHOULMAN

Sunday, June 6, 2004 4:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lennier:
SNIP!

Wow. Did I say wow? Funny but when I read your post it's pretty obvious I'm wrong about season 6. And in more than a few ways! Great post. Terrific analysis and comments.

Sorry I can't be in depth guy here but my life is tooo busy. Luckily I happened to be in the office this sunday awaiting the D-Day parade so here I am trying to come up with something intellegent to match your post. Wish me luck! I feel like i'm following a really great act... *chuckle*

Lately I've caught the earlier seasons on reruns and when I think of your comments I see the larger Joss 'verse and remembered that the continuity in character is rock solid but subject to human nature. Which is why it's sooo great! And here I am thinking you should be a writer as you've just demonstratged a natural talent for structure. Something writers struggle with all thier lives and often fail at. Nice work!

And I think I'm backwards about melo-drama just as you say though I don't think melo-drama is neccessarily a bad thing. And I think you explain that perfectly well and point out what makes it work as a drama.

... I just have compliments for you here.

Oh, I do have an opinion about the academics you mention...

Quote:
ok, enough flattery!
I've thought about writing essays and finding a place to have them published ...but I'm not actually an arts student currently, so I feel like I'm not 'supposed' to do this ...and I'm simultaneously put-off and inspired by how awful and misguided many of the 'academic' papers on Buffy have been (though there are a few real gems). There was actually a paper at the most recent conference about the 'dead/evil lesbian cliche' ...that's ALL they had to say about Tara, that she was an example of the fact that joss is a Heterosexual White Male who hates lesbians, or something. Pop-culture analysis makes me sick because it just assumes what it is postulating, and assumes that the work it's talking about is too clumsy to have an internal coherency that might overide their assumptions; they just pick out whatever random elements they want to argue their case, and ignore the context, not really caring what is actually going on inside the work; all they care about are surface appearances and how they can relate them to cultural trends. I've even seen pop analysis that treats buffy as that girl-kicking-ass-in-a-miniskirt cliche that has almost nothing to do with the series at all (aside from season 1); ie. treating her as a 'xena' type stereotype that is a 'false' feminism where their sexiness 'undercuts' their power (and frankly, even xena doesn't deserve that kind of treatment! that type of analysis should be reserved for things like "Charlie's Angels"---i would actually agree in that case, they try to sell them as sex-objects 'before' showing them as empowered women).

I read that in the U.S. there are academics looking into Buffy the Vampire Slayer as a well oiled philosophy machine. The main characters in some seasons followed Platonian ethics and such. Kant is talked about and so on. In fact, I have a friend who is a philosophy guy (you can tell because he quit a month before getting his PHd and is jobless) and we have mulled over a few Buffy-isms and he marveled at the last season where the Buffster took on a leadership role like no other. A leader with an army and an enemy. And a leader who was falible. A leader who got people killed. Drama? Oh yes! Makes West Wing look silly wha?

And I have a BIG bone to pick with smarmy little intellectually stunted English Profs who like to "cut and paste" thier cultural constructs onto anything. I feel that's a cheat. If you want to talk about the symbolism, metaphor, and meaning of Art you must demonstrate your opinions and observations onto the Art being deconstructed. That is, if the elements in the Art don't demonstrate the smarmy Profs thoery then the theory must be wrong.

Take Buffy at face value. Teen sex kitten who fights demons. Pretty comic bo

LENNIER

Monday, June 7, 2004 11:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Wow. Did I say wow? Funny but when I read your post it's pretty obvious I'm wrong about season 6. And in more than a few ways! Great post. Terrific analysis and comments.

whoa, I wasn't trying to get you to change your mind! that's why I made a point of saying I wasn't being antagonistic... I thought you had a good point of view, that also agrees with mine 'within error margins'. I only wanted to make a point of saying what my own opinion was, and that I didn't want to leave out s4 and s5. The most I was hoping for was a "yes, s4 and s5 are also good".

Anyhow, I just wanted to make clear that I wasn't writing that to change your mind, only to offer my perspective. If I try to change your mind, you'll feel it.

I just worry that my 'voice' often comes off as confrontational, even when I don't mean to be; here I was trying to add something, i was not trying to nulify or attack anything that you said. And especially, I was not in any way critisizing s6 for any 'lack' (and I completely agree with the full extent of your praise of it), I was only pointing out that other seasons did certain things better (or just 'different'), and was trying to explain why I felt they deserved a place beside s6.

Quote:

Quote:

I've thought about writing essays and finding a place to have them published ...but I'm not actually an arts student currently, so I feel like I'm not 'supposed' to do this ...and I'm simultaneously put-off and inspired by how awful and misguided many of the 'academic' papers on Buffy have been (though there are a few real gems). There was actually a paper at the most recent conference about the 'dead/evil lesbian cliche' ...that's ALL they had to say about Tara, that she was an example of the fact that joss is a Heterosexual White Male who hates lesbians, or something. Pop-culture analysis makes me sick because it just assumes what it is postulating, and assumes that the work it's talking about is too clumsy to have an internal coherency that might overide their assumptions; they just pick out whatever random elements they want to argue their case, and ignore the context, not really caring what is actually going on inside the work; all they care about are surface appearances and how they can relate them to cultural trends. I've even seen pop analysis that treats buffy as that girl-kicking-ass-in-a-miniskirt cliche that has almost nothing to do with the series at all (aside from season 1); ie. treating her as a 'xena' type stereotype that is a 'false' feminism where their sexiness 'undercuts' their power (and frankly, even xena doesn't deserve that kind of treatment! that type of analysis should be reserved for things like "Charlie's Angels"---i would actually agree in that case, they try to sell them as sex-objects 'before' showing them as empowered women).

I read that in the U.S. there are academics looking into Buffy the Vampire Slayer as a well oiled philosophy machine. The main characters in some seasons followed Platonian ethics and such. Kant is talked about and so on. In fact, I have a friend who is a philosophy guy (you can tell because he quit a month before getting his PHd and is jobless) and we have mulled over a few Buffy-isms and he marveled at the last season where the Buffster took on a leadership role like no other. A leader with an army and an enemy. And a leader who was falible. A leader who got people killed. Drama? Oh yes! Makes West Wing look silly wha?

Yes! I've been neglecting to mention season 7, only because its overall quality is not as clear-cut in my mind as s4-s6, so I'm not quite ready to call it 'a nearly perfect masterpiece' in the way that I would for s4-s6 (which is not to say that it's not just as good, but currently there are a few things that make me uncertain about it ...and my gut feeling is that it's just slightly 'under', though still extraordinary and important) ...but for reasons such as the one you mention, it is an extraordinary season that took the

MAUGWAI

Monday, June 7, 2004 11:47 PM

You guys have said some interesting things, so I thought I'd chime in with some loose change.

Goulman, I am not a smelly fanboy. I am neither smelly nor a boy. Also, it's completely not important to anybody but me, and it's an easy mistake to make, but Hamlet didn't kill Ophelia. She went crazy and killed herself. Hamlet's actions played a major part, but she already had issues, and she did the deed herself.

I agree that season 6 was good. It's my personal favorite. I think one of the reasons people don't like it is because they set up an expectation of what an episode of Buffy should be. If you go in looking for every episode to be "Surprise," then you're going to be disappointed. Have no expectations, and you'll like what you see because Joss is always trying something new. I love how many episode endings found me still open-mouthed and silent five minutes later. I felt that way because I never tried to predict what would happen, so I was never disappointed. I simply analyzed what I saw, like you guys are doing.

Season seven was so coherent. Every episode from beginning to end was pushing to one goal. It opens with power, it closes with power and who has it. And in between it focuses on Buffy's solitude. Good stuff.

Just some rambling thoughts I had while I was reading your posts.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

LENNIER

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 12:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by maugwai:
You guys have said some interesting things, so I thought I'd chime in with some loose change.

Goulman, I am not a smelly fanboy. I am neither smelly nor a boy. Also, it's completely not important to anybody but me, and it's an easy mistake to make, but Hamlet didn't kill Ophelia. She went crazy and killed herself. Hamlet's actions played a major part, but she already had issues, and she did the deed herself.

I think Ghoulman meant that Hamlet the play killed Ophelia, not Hamlet the character. The analogy is that when Tara died people were angry at Buffy the show, and at the writers, NOT at Warren (well, they may have been angry at warren, but they expressed their anger at the show).

Quote:

I agree that season 6 was good. It's my personal favorite. I think one of the reasons people don't like it is because they set up an expectation of what an episode of Buffy should be. If you go in looking for every episode to be "Surprise," then you're going to be disappointed. Have no expectations, and you'll like what you see because Joss is always trying something new. I love how many episode endings found me still open-mouthed and silent five minutes later. I felt that way because I never tried to predict what would happen, so I was never disappointed. I simply analyzed what I saw, like you guys are doing.

I love that feeling of awe and silence. I was discussing this with someone recently, in response to some comments joss recently made (he said that surprise is the most holy and humbling emotion that we have, and he was talking about how much spoilers and previews sadenned him because suprise was no longer possible; he said that surprise makes us feel 'small in the world', as if things are much larger and scarier and more complicated than we imagined).
I think quite a lot of Buffy's style is about creating various kinds of shock (not just plot or emotional, but even the shocking way they hit us with jokes or style changes), and leaving us permentaly in a state of shock, and transforming that shock from comedic to dramatic to horror etc.
They play that shock so well, controlling the levels and energy, that's it's like music or like a dance. That's a large part of the art of the show, I think, and it's one of the most neglected in discussions of 'what the show is' (even though it's one of the most obvious parts of our reaction).

Refining what I said in the last paragraph:
actually, it's kind of about 'repressed shock'. I find often that my laughter is repressed, even when something is hilarious. It's like they 'keep' the shock and keep pushing the energy stronger by holding that tension tight, and transform that energy between all the different genres. It's like we live in the moment before shock, while we're watching the show. I found Hush really unnerving for this reason, becaue the stifled screams etc. were exactly how I felt when watching the show.

Quote:

Season seven was so coherent. Every episode from beginning to end was pushing to one goal. It opens with power, it closes with power and who has it. And in between it focuses on Buffy's solitude. Good stuff.

I'm definitely still re-assessing my opinion of s7, my opinions/feelings aren't set in stone. I do totally agree that it's coherent that way, that its topic was coherent ...what I'm less sure of is if what they're saying within the topic is as coherent, and whether every thread and episode in the season ties in as well as it did in previous seasons (or if what they're saying is as 'insightful' as previous seasons, though that's highly subjective of course).
Anyhow, I'm not one of the people who thinks that it's 'bad' or anything, my feeling is just that it might not be quite as coherent as the previous seasons.
But what I'd agree with, and this is perhaps what you're saying, is that it states its topic very clearly and coherently, perhaps even more so than previous season.

ah, ignore me. What I should really say is that I love hea

GHOULMAN

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 1:07 AM

No, no, no, that bastard Hamlet ripped into Ophelia and she killed herself in despair. Hamlet did it!

*chuckle*, I know, it's an old argument.

And I'll be back to comment (Lennier! You go... er, boy? Whatever. And I'll message ya). Not sure when as I'm working late into the night. As the time index above will attest. Nite.

GHOULMAN

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 4:27 PM

OK first... my eyes are bleeding. Lots of text. I read it last night and went over again to collect some thoughts. Nice work once again Lennier! You are the shabazz!

Oh, I didn't really change my mind (about season 6) as take in all you have pointed out. That is, I'm wrong because I didn't see the whole picture and thus not your point. And I'm aften confused about what season is what so bare with me. Bear with me? A bear! Undo it! heh heh. Sorry...

You are obviously talented in the higher order. Your sagacity and insight is the difference between mere existance and actually living. You are Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Plato once told a story to describe our reality. Reality, he tells us, is a tribe sitting in a cave watching a shadow play created by hidden men from behind. The people watch the shadows and believe them to be reality. One person (let's call her Buffy) walks out of the cave and discovers the sun, the sky... a higher reality. A truer reality. This person is called the Philosopher. Buffy is that person. And so are you.

Quote:

Lennier wrote:
Monday, June 07, 2004 13:06
I just worry that my 'voice' often comes off as confrontational, even when I don't mean to be...

I'm not a sensitive reader on a public BBS. Considering the attacks on me by everyone from Paramount producers, writers, TV drones @ SPACe the fanboy network, etc. I've grown a pretty thick skin. So don't worry, but when I'm aggressive you can't mistake it for anything else. I've made sailors blush. Then kiss my toes. And give me money LOL!

Quote:
About Buffy being faliable, I'm always annoyed when people use that against her, claiming that it makes her a 'bad role model' or something. I've always felt that she's one of the best role models because she and her problems are truly 'real', and she succeeds despite it all ...she wanders but finds the right way in the end.

You're comments here are the very centre of BtVS in it's entirty. At it's basic premise (the true one, not the teen sex pot one I mentioned) this is what BtVS is about. If someone asks what is BtVS about you can simply answer; "it's about a girl growing up to be a woman." and it's great stuff!

Buffy has gone through, as you deftly point out, all sorts of troubles and conflicts that are a part of all our lives (well, not the older Vampire boyfriend part but ... you know) and it's how we deal with these classic hurtles in life that is entirely what drama and stories are about. Buffy takes all that on with alacrity, at least usually. She isn't perfect but who is? Just as you say, this is a story aboyut growth - if the Buffster was superhero perfect the show would just be the pandering crap we would have expected from the teen sex scenario... which I'll comment on next. After all, your comments are still right on.

Quote:
...again, I'm annoyed by critics and feminists who complain that Buffy is not fully independent and empowered in her high school years ...cause who is like that in high school?? or at any age for that matter ...buffy is as close as we'll get, I think, to a realistic 'handbook' towards independence, particularly for girls).

I've noticed that critics only see the surface. And that's what I meant about the "teen sex kitten deamon fighter" thing. I'll explain a bit...

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Take Buffy at face value. Teen sex kitten who fights demons. Pretty comic book stuff, which is where Joss is comming from. It's a very standard school girl sex fantasy for men. All that's missing is Buffy in a Catholic mini. Now, this is certainly demonstrated in Buffy and can be said to be true. But that doesn't mean to say the show panders to this (slightly creepy) sex fantasy... though the whole Angel/Buffy romance did get so close to that even Angel and Buffy once said they were creeped out by thier own desires! Truly a show that knows itself!

So the above may seem 'bad' but the real brillience of this show is it's subversion of these comic book elements. That is, instead of pandering to sex

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LENNIER

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 7:42 PM

I'm posting this before I read Ghoulman's response, because I'm embarassed about some of what I wrote, and want to acknowledge a problem with it---
in the 'fetish' part of the response, I became quite lost and I crossed about 5 different topics without 'realizing' it, and ended up talking
about something completely different than what I started with. The result is that what I say at the end may seem to contradict what I was saying at the beginning (i think?), and corrupt the coherency of the argument (well, it isn't coherent at all, is it? i was just sort of ranting) ...but
actually, I'm talking about something different, and if I had made that clear (and written it better) then there would be no contradiction.
Anyhow, I just wanted to acknowledge the problems with that part of my post.

One way to put it in perspective, is to say that what i SHOULD be talking about, the context within which this argument is located, is with respect
to feminist critisisms that claim Buffy is a failure as feminism, and may even be ANTI-feminist (ie. I'm not debating how the show deals with
sexuality, I'm talking about whether or not the show's message is signficantly 'corrupted' by its sexual side ...and aside perhaps for season 1, the
answer is a definite no ---for two reasons ...one is that, its active treatment of sexuality simply does not undercut its empowerment and themes, and the 2nd reason is that the dis-empowering fetishizing that COULD be attached to the show exists entirely OUTSIDE of it, and the
show should not be held responsible for how people can *choose* to objectify it).

I'm not sure if what I'm saying here is entirely clear either, but hopefully it simplifies things a little bit.

A side analogy I've been wanting to the mention is the danger of being over-cautious of female sexuality (and that's part of why Buffy's playful and wholehearted embracing of it is so important) ...eg. "women don't belong in the army
because they'll distract the men". There's a danger of going too far and
actually becoming sexist on the 'other' side, and I would say that is where some feminists have gone in attempting to trash Buffy.
One brilliant article in "What's at Stake in Buffy" actually parodied the feminist articles in this way: "Buffy can't be feminist because she has
breasts".
In a related point, there's a related set of issues regarding Buffy as a 'conventional' girl ...she's powerful, but much of her behaviour in the early seasons is 'girly' and she likes clothes, and other things that bother the feminists ...I won't get into the details, but the real issue there is that Buffy ISN'T meant to be a 100% feminist work, it's also supposed to simply be a refelction high school, and being young, which means it's wrong to judge those aspects purely in feminist terms ...and also, in later seasons Buffy clearly grows up into a better feminist model, so the critisisms really don't hold if you consider that it's supposed to be a progression. And the show never claimed that it was 'the' feminist ideal, it's more meant to be a step in the growing process (this time I mean our growth as a culture) ...though I think that by the later seasons, it's achieved a pretty good feminist ideal (regardless of whether or not it lines up with any particular version of feminism).

note to Ghoulman: I may not respond to your response for a few days.
Also, this is getting to be a lot of words even for me, so I may just need to drop some points.

GHOULMAN

Tuesday, June 8, 2004 8:04 PM

^^^ No worries Lennier, I know you're in school so don't think you gotta reply out of politness - and you're very polite. And I hope my responces hit your meaning. I read it with an editors eye. So you went off a little, it's a BBS, it's all good.