To save America, we need another 9/11
POSTED BY: CrevanReaver
UPDATED: Thursday, May 23, 2024 06:04
VIEWED: 15053
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At least that's the opinion of a columnist for Philadelphia Daily News named Stu Bykofsky.
Here's what he wrote in an article:
Quote:
ONE MONTH from The Anniversary, I'm thinking another 9/11 would help America.
What kind of a sick bastard would write such a thing?
A bastard so sick of how splintered we are politically - thanks mainly to our ineptitude in Iraq - that we have forgotten who the enemy is.
It is not Bush and it is not Hillary and it is not Daily Kos or Bill O'Reilly or Giuliani or Barack. It is global terrorists who use Islam to justify their hideous sins, including blowing up women and children.
Iraq has fractured the U.S. into jigsaw pieces of competing interests that encourage our enemies. We are deeply divided and division is weakness.
Most Americans today believe Iraq was a mistake. Why?
Not because Americans are "anti-war."
Americans have turned their backs because the war has dragged on too long and we don't have the patience for a long slog. We've been in Iraq for four years, but to some it seems like a century. In contrast, Britain just pulled its soldiers out of Northern Ireland where they had been, often being shot at, almost 40 years.
That's not the American way.
In Iraq, we don't believe our military is being beaten on the battleground. It's more that there is no formal "battleground." There is the drip of daily casualties and victory is not around the corner. Americans are impatient. We like fast food and fast war.
Americans loved the 1991 Gulf War. It raged for just 100 hours when George H.W. Bush ended it with a declaration of victory. He sent a half-million troops into harm's way and we suffered fewer than 300 deaths.
America likes wars shorter than the World Series.
Bush I did everything right, Bush II did everything wrong - but he did it with the backing of Congress.
Because the war has been a botch so far, Democrats and Republicans are attacking one another, when they aren't attacking themselves. The dialog of discord echoes across America.
Turn back to 9/11.
Remember the community of outrage and national resolve? America had not been so united since the first Day of Infamy - 12/7/41.
We knew who the enemy was then.
We knew who the enemy was shortly after 9/11.
Because we have mislaid 9/11, we have endless sideshow squabbles about whether the surge is working, if we are "safer" now, whether the FBI should listen in on foreign phone calls, whether cops should detain odd-acting "flying imams," whether those plotting alleged attacks on Fort Dix or Kennedy airport are serious threats or amateur bumblers. We bicker over the trees while the forest is ablaze.
America's fabric is pulling apart like a cheap sweater.
What would sew us back together?
Another 9/11 attack.
The Golden Gate Bridge. Mount Rushmore. Chicago's Wrigley Field. The Philadelphia subway system. The U.S. is a target-rich environment for al Qaeda.
Is there any doubt they are planning to hit us again?
If it is to be, then let it be. It will take another attack on the homeland to quell the chattering of chipmunks and to restore America's righteous rage and singular purpose to prevail.
The unity brought by such an attack sadly won't last forever.
The first 9/11 proved that.
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I say we fire the dude's ass! Let him join Churchill in the unemployment line !
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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How bout not having a war in the first fucking place.. but that'd make just too much sense, wouldn't it ?
Seriously, for what we've spent on this ridiculous crap already, we coulda put a price on these bastards heads so high they'd be bringin em in by the dozens and we wouldn't have had to do jack diddly but stand there with a basket to collect em and hand out the checks.
And STILL it woulda cost less, but nooo, the MIC had to get their cut, right ?
It's insanity, is what it is, and whoever wrote this bit belongs in a goddamn asylum, or even better, slap a rifle in his hand and put his ass on patrol in Haditha, instead of cheerleading from his plush suburbian gated community.
Grrr.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:Frem, you think too clearly and realistically to be the President, but I'd still vote for ya!
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Seriously, for what we've spent on this ridiculous crap already, we coulda put a price on these bastards heads so high they'd be bringin em in by the dozens and we wouldn't have had to do jack diddly but stand there with a basket to collect em and hand out the checks.
Creme de la Frem Chrisisall
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I'm having trouble getting excited about statements like this anymore. I'm hearing them more and more, and I think I'm just getting disillusioned that people can't see the inherent flaws in that logic. Just dealing with the wrongheadedness (and btw, where did the word wrongheaded make its way into our vernacular?) of this line of thinking is difficult. Do people actually think that they're being so insightful by opposing their own natural perspective that they can't (or won't) see the shortcomings of such a mindset?
Amiton.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
How bout not having a war in the first fucking place.. but that'd make just too much sense, wouldn't it ?
I went out drinking last night and I'm suffering because of it this morning. Should I make an attempt to try to alleviate my symptoms? You know, take an aspirin, re-hydrate, eat a greasy meal, start drinking again? Or should I sit around and lament the fact that I went out drinking in the first place?
Which do you think will be most helpful to me now?
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Quote:Learning from your mistake. But we really don't do that, do we? You'll drink too much again without hydrating and vitamin-ing-up first, and we'll have another war without preparing a long term strategy or determining it's potential effectiveness or necessity...it's the way of things, I guess.
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Which do you think will be most helpful to me now?
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You know, aside from the fact that we invaded Iraq for specious reasons, there IS such a thing as "the Powell Doctrine", and it was created from the bitter experience of Vietnam. It was meant to avoid quagmires like Northern Ireland and Iraq, and it goes
Quote:It seems to me that every single point of the Doctrine was violated in the Iraq invasion and, not too surprisingly, we're in a quagmire. Lesson have been learned, we just didn't pay attention to them. I'm with Frem- If we don't learn from the past we're doomed to repeat it.
The questions posed by the Powell Doctrine, which should be answered affirmatively before military action, are:
1. Is a vital national security interest threatened?
2. Do we have a clear attainable objective?
3. Have the risks and costs been fully and frankly analyzed?
4. Have all other non-violent policy means been fully exhausted?
5. Is there a plausible exit strategy to avoid endless entanglement?
6. Have the consequences of our action been fully considered?
7. Is the action supported by the American people?
8. Do we have genuine broad international support?
Oh yeah, I'm with Rue- This guy is a sick bastard and should be on the unemployment line.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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What an ugly, ugly view of humanity this joker has. And for the sake of family values let's hope all the mothers in this country die horribly--that'd bring families together right quick, wouldn't it? And while we're at it, lets put all our children in Skinner boxes so they'll grow up to be artistic geniuses! Reminds me of a bizarro video I saw the other day on YouTube:
Good news for the dems, right?
Yeah, people wanting to leave a legacy for their grandchildren are just "narcissistic." When did the right decide that Americans are hopelessly irrational and childish? Or has that been the premise all along?
Guess we've achieved the Chinese curse. These are some plenty interesting times.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody: I went out drinking last night and I'm suffering because of it this morning. Should I make an attempt to try to alleviate my symptoms? You know, take an aspirin, re-hydrate, eat a greasy meal, start drinking again? Or should I sit around and lament the fact that I went out drinking in the first place?
Which do you think will be most helpful to me now?
All time #1 works every time hang over cure:
Drink one small can of V-8 Juice with 1/4 teaspoon of cayenne pepper. Go outside and fall asleep in the direct sunlight wearing only shorts for 2 hours, or sit in a sauna for 1/2 hour. Sweating is the key, when you wake up rehydrate thoroughly. If you still feel sick go back to sleep till it works or you're sunburnt. Then you won't feel the pain of the hangover as much as the sunburn.
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Quote:I think you should stay the course. Keep on with what you were doing last night. Or better yet, surge your drinking. Just do what you were doing last night, but faster.
I went out drinking last night and I'm suffering because of it this morning. Should I make an attempt to try to alleviate my symptoms? You know, take an aspirin, re-hydrate, eat a greasy meal, start drinking again? Or should I sit around and lament the fact that I went out drinking in the first place?
Which do you think will be most helpful to me now?
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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good call!
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We already had one 9/11, and look where we are. I'd think the Left wing would be cheering for the terrorist next time.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Ain't the left wing which lobbed this cabal into power, and frankly, Shrub's done more damage to the USA than Osama could have ever in a million years even hoped for.
ter·ror·ism (ter-uh-riz-uhm)
–noun 1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
Sounds a whole lot like the TSA, DHS, FBI, CIA and related goons to me...
So yeah, let's talk about cheerleading terrorists, you pussillanimous fucktard, and we'll start with YOU, how bout that, eh ?
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Wow. Just when I thought I was beginning to understand Rap, the fella reminds me he's in a parallel universe.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
We already had one 9/11, and look where we are. I'd think the Left wing would be cheering for the terrorist next time.
What do you mean you think they'd be cheering? They do it every day, every single day for years; alternately cheering, and defending, and emoting for their jihadist brothers...THEY SUPPORT EACHOTHER....greatly and almost lovingly assisting each team to attain their respective goals...
The Left is rooting for and doing everything possible to help the terrorists; a treasonous course of action designed to put their Howard Dean/Al Franken-approved candidates in office, and keep the current cast of Pelositic Pathetics chairing all the key committees that are responsible for gay love in maple trees being legal in front of my house...aka, their well-known agenda of godless, morality-challenged secular-progressive George Sorosesque mental masterbatory fantasy vision of America...while the terrorists use their useful idiots here in America and all over the world to forestall & weaken the world's resolve to unite against them. That video we all saw of Osama & Mull-Man Omar & Zawahiri all jumping & cheering at the buildings coming down on 911 was NOT about their success in killing thousands of innocent people of all religions and origins..NO NO...they were gleefully ecstatic and cheering with tears that it wasn't gonna take but a few minutes before the momentarily-silenced Left would be out in force as they hoped and counted on blaming America and Bush and Christianity & Jews for their little gift to us...heck, another 911 attack killing thousands of people(preferably in a Red State), would send the Left into a frenzied overdose of happiness and joy....they'd all be out there in one of their Soros organized-funded demonstrations holding up signs (printed by Haliburton's silly protestors' sign division) with sayings like : We Love Islamic Beheaders, or Slit My Throat Next Achmed, and Clean Towels and Sheets For Our Al Qaida-Caucus Democrats Free Here, and Stone Me, My Bearded Brothers, I Peeked At Your Camel's Tits, etc. etc. And then Barbara Streisand would sing a benefit concert to raise millions for the muslim widows of the attackers.
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Quote:Jongsstraw- This is a joke, right? Do you REALLY believe this? Are you so warped by your fear of terrorism that you think a significant percentage of the American population is helping the Jihadists? I asked you several times, and I'm gonna ask you again WHAT you think the threat really is and how you project it taking place. You never did answer my questions, and I'm thinking it's because you feel that a calm conversation is somehow subversive.
What do you mean you think they'd be cheering? They do it every day, every single day for years; alternately cheering, and defending, and emoting for their jihadist brothers...THEY SUPPORT EACHOTHER....greatly and almost lovingly assisting each team to attain their respective goals... The Left is rooting for and doing everything possible to help the terrorists; a treasonous course of action designed to put their Howard Dean/Al Franken-approved candidates in office, and keep the current cast of Pelositic Pathetics chairing all the key committees that are responsible for gay love in maple trees being legal in front of my house...aka, their well-known agenda of godless, morality-challenged secular-progressive George Sorosesque mental masterbatory fantasy vision of America...while the terrorists use their useful idiots here in America and all over the world to forestall & weaken the world's resolve to unite against them. That video we all saw of Osama & Mull-Man Omar & Zawahiri all jumping & cheering at the buildings coming down on 911 was NOT about their success in killing thousands of innocent people of all religions and origins..NO NO...they were gleefully ecstatic and cheering with tears that it wasn't gonna take but a few minutes before the momentarily-silenced Left would be out in force as they hoped and counted on blaming America and Bush and Christianity & Jews for their little gift to us...heck, another 911 attack killing thousands of people(preferably in a Red State), would send the Left into a frenzied overdose of happiness and joy....they'd all be out there in one of their Soros organized-funded demonstrations holding up signs (printed by Haliburton's silly protestors' sign division) with sayings like : We Love Islamic Beheaders, or Slit My Throat Next Achmed, and Clean Towels and Sheets For Our Al Qaida-Caucus Democrats Free Here, and Stone Me, My Bearded Brothers, I Peeked At Your Camel's Tits, etc. etc. And then Barbara Streisand would sing a benefit concert to raise millions for the muslim widows of the attackers.
So let's start with something simple: What is the real threat, as you see it?
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Jongsstraw- This is a joke, right? Do you REALLY believe this? Are you so warped by your fear of terrorism that you think a significant percentage of the American population is helping the Jihadists?
in the town i live, one of the few talk radio stations we have broadcasts Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity on a daily basis. from my experience this IS what they believe.. the irony being that they seem to hate "liberal" Americans as much as their alleged "liberals" hate America. if Americans need to be murdered to be taught a lesson, then its for the greater good i guess.. thats the penalty for disagreement.
the common denominator between all these guys is they refuse to consider the 'malevolent government' theory. did any Americans benefit from the 9/11 attacks? if so, could they have had for-knowledge, and did they exhibit a motive or intent? the Pentagon and White House definitely are suspect, because the neocons did have an established prior 'agenda'. considering the holes in the official 9/11 story, and the subsequent aftermath with the IRaqi occupation, these are things everyone should consider. but you first have to conceive that criminals exist, in America, even in high places
Quote:
I asked you several times, and I'm gonna ask you again WHAT you think the threat really is and how you project it taking place. You never did answer my questions, and I'm thinking it's because you feel that a calm conversation is somehow subversive.
id like to hear his opinion as well.. i suspect it has to do with the individual criminal attacks that took place on 9.11, and a religious conflict with Muslims.. but from there i personally wouldnt know how to justify invading and attacking the whole middle east, over(in reality) what were a couple of(albeit atrocious)individual criminal acts. thats really where their logic IMO becomes irrational
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
ter·ror·ism (ter-uh-riz-uhm)
–noun 1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
Sounds a whole lot like the TSA, DHS, FBI, CIA and related goons to me...
Actually it sounds a whole lot like supporters of abortion on demand. And by the way, it's the Roe v. Wade decision that has done more damage to America than Osama ever could. Almost 50 million babies murdered so far.
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Well looks like they missed a couple they shouldn't have, Sky...
That's a topic I flat will not discuss here, other than to flatly state that that it's better to be murdered, than tortured, abandoned, neglected and then die one way or another - I've seen firsthand where these unwanted kids wind up if there's no one rich or politically connected enough to grind their way through the immense expense and red tape that makes the adoption process a lame fucking joke, and if there is a hell, it's right there, not in some dreamers afterlife.
You wanna call me pro-death, you go right ahead and do that, but be damned if imma discuss the matter in any more detail than that, and frankly, as far as I am concerned, if it ain't YOUR kid, and you ain't a chick, shut the fuck up.
Y'all only give a shit about em till they pop out, and then you couldn't care less when they wind up in a dumpster choking on their own umbilical, long as it prevents abortion, sure.
Screw you, buddy. 
-Frem
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I personally would like to see a world where not a single woman has an elective abortion.
Strong advocate of abstinence, free or low cost birth control, support of single mothers, support of pregnant girls who would like to put the baby up for adoption but 'can't' for some reason, all sorts of solutions out there...
but push comes to shove, I have to believe it makes most sense to leave elective abortion on the table.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Wow. Just when I thought I was beginning to understand Rap, the fella reminds me he's in a parallel universe.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
How so ? We have the fake little indian, Ward Churchill, who called the victims in the WTC " little Eichmanns". We had Bill Maher express how much courage the terrorist must have had to fly the planes into the WTC..... I just think that next time, those on the Left will be cheering WHILE the attacks are going on, instead of waiting a while before telling us how they really think.
Please, tell me where I'm wrong.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Please, tell me where I'm wrong.
"
That happens pretty much on a daily basis but does'nt penetrate, so why should it now?
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Quote:
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Please, tell me where I'm wrong.
"
That happens pretty much on a daily basis but does'nt penetrate, so why should it now?
Saying " you're wrong" and showing some one where they are wrong are entirely 2 different things. Maybe one day you'll discover this and post something worthwhile.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:You don't KNOW??? I'll give you a night to think on it, then get back with you tomorrow.
How so ? We have the fake little indian, Ward Churchill, who called the victims in the WTC " little Eichmanns". We had Bill Maher express how much courage the terrorist must have had to fly the planes into the WTC..... I just think that next time, those on the Left will be cheering WHILE the attacks are going on, instead of waiting a while before telling us how they really think.
Please, tell me where I'm wrong.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Wow. Just when I thought I was beginning to understand Rap, the fella reminds me he's in a parallel universe.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
How so ? We have the fake little indian, Ward Churchill, who called the victims in the WTC " little Eichmanns". We had Bill Maher express how much courage the terrorist must have had to fly the planes into the WTC..... I just think that next time, those on the Left will be cheering WHILE the attacks are going on, instead of waiting a while before telling us how they really think.
Please, tell me where I'm wrong.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
Well, as far as Bill Maher goes, this is his actual quote:
“We have been the cowards, lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away, that’s cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building, say what you want about it, that’s not cowardly.”
Which is certainly not what you said.
And how is Ward Churchill's comment about the amoral nature of the technocrats supporting the terrorists? Surely you're not as simple minded as Bush and believe that "My enemy's enemy is my friend"?
Oh, and also you're wrong in your whole political, social and above all Christian philosophy. Jesus hates you and you stand for.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Wow. Just when I thought I was beginning to understand Rap, the fella reminds me he's in a parallel universe.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
How so ? We have the fake little indian, Ward Churchill, who called the victims in the WTC " little Eichmanns". We had Bill Maher express how much courage the terrorist must have had to fly the planes into the WTC..... I just think that next time, those on the Left will be cheering WHILE the attacks are going on, instead of waiting a while before telling us how they really think.
Please, tell me where I'm wrong.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
Well, as far as Bill Maher goes, this is his actual quote:
“We have been the cowards, lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away, that’s cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building, say what you want about it, that’s not cowardly.”
Which is certainly not what you said.
Not verbatim, but praising them for not being cowardly equals to calling them brave in my book. Slitting the throat of a flight attendent, that's cowardly. Doing the same to a pilot and co-pilot strapped into their seats is cowardly. They were fanatical, delusional, but also cowardly. Mahar , and those who agree w/ him can go suck a red hot exhaust pipe, for all I care.
Quote:The fake little Indian made no such comment, but said that the victims in the WTC towers were ' little Eichmanns '. Amoral technocrats? They were fathers, mothers, sons and daughters. They were friends and siblings who didn't do a damn thing to deserve dying as they did. Screw Ward Churchill.
And how is Ward Churchill's comment about the amoral nature of the technocrats supporting the terrorists? Surely you're not as simple minded as Bush and believe that "My enemy's enemy is my friend"?
Quote:
Oh, and also you're wrong in your whole political, social and above all Christian philosophy. Jesus hates you and you stand for.
I'm not wrong, and Jesus is still dead. ( Unless you mean the guy who cuts the lawn every week, then I don't really care what he thinks ) Of all the gross mistakes you made, thinking I was Christian is the funniest, though not the least.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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So Rap, have you figured out what you did wrong in both threads?
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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"What kind of a sick bastard would write such a thing?
A bastard so sick of how splintered we are politically - thanks mainly to our ineptitude in Iraq - that we have forgotten who the enemy is."
I too am sick of how splintered we are politically. The above has proved we are without question.
Frankly, I don't think another 9/11 would bring us back together. The divisions are growing deeper by day. If another occurred, I believe we would immediately leap at each others throats to fight over silly things, like 'those damn liberals cheered the terrorists in' or 'those dang rightwingers spawned the "new generation" of terrorists with their illegal war in Iraq'.
What would bring us back together? Not sure. I'd hope that intelligent dialog; where people -strive- to understand what the 'other side is saying', rather than to pull quotes out of context to use as a lash against the 'other side'.
Folks, the 'other side' is the terrorists. That seems to be forgotten.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So Rap, have you figured out what you did wrong in both threads?
Told the truth.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Forgive me if I'm restating what other folks have said here- reading over this thread was too depressing to read past the first ten or so posts.
"Another 9/11 would bring us together", huh?
True. America is, fundementally, a reactionary society- we always try to play the good guy in an argument, being the first to take the punch before we hit back.
Would it be a good thing? Was two thousand+ people burning/suffocating/being crushed to death a good thing in the first place? Or the thousands now who are dying sue to the shit kicked up in the air?
Sad thing is, this dude, whoever he is, struck a chord. America is, by and large, always splintered between amazingly different groups. We are a piecemeal country of immigrants. Each and every one of us, besides a woefully small population of Natives, is an immigrant, son of an immigrant, son of a son of an immigrant... the list goes on. This creates a rather interesting divide- we are torn between the nationality of being American and whatever else Nationalities we have in us (I know I have at least six, probably more).
Add to that little tidbit that we have a superiority complex (OR "Little Brother" complex, if you will) with the rest of the world, stemming from our relativly infantile age, a measly two hundred thirty odd years; AND we love to see the good guy win.
As one meself (An American), I know; we simply can NOT accept that bad things can happen to good people. It's almost laughable at how much faith we have that, someway, somehow, the 'Good Guy' will win. Feh.
We forget, however, that, when one thrws polotics into the mix, there ceases to be a 'Good Guy' or 'Bad Guy'. They simply exist to sow distrust and taxes among an unsuspecting populous.
So, in the end, America really does NEED something to galvanize it- a swift kick in the ass when we're not looking. We need someone to think of as a 'Bad Guy' , as opposed to us, the 'Good Guy'.
We used to be that, after 9/11. But War spares none- and neither does the media.
-Danny
We move for all mankind,
A million miles from everything we've ever know...
We're on their hearts and minds,
A million heads are bowed to bring us safely home...
Hemmed in by emptiness,
A million ways that everything could be undone...
THRICE RULES!!!!!!!!!
http://www.myspace.com/otherrandomdude
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Quote:Sigh. Can you stop being so friggin' defensive long enough to have a decent discussion? Anyway, I WISH you'd told the truth.
So Rap, have you figured out what you did wrong in both threads? -Signy
Told the truth- Auraptor
In this thread you took two examples - Churchill and Maher- and basically used them as examples of the entire "liberal" movement. So you're saying that HK, Leadb, Chrisisall and many of the other non-right-wingers in this thread would CHEER about another 9-11? What an insult. What a f*cking insult. And so false. If anything, judging by the posted article and the responses on this board, I would put THAT shoe on the right foot.
In the other thread, you said that a Kerry/ Gore Presidency "would have been worse" than Bush's in terms of expanding government. But, you know the TRUTH is that the last example of a Dem President actually SHRANK government. And once again you're not arguing reality, you're only arguing about some vision in your head. And sadly, it's not even YOUR vision.
You know, I value people tremendously who can see "the truth". It means finding and neutralizing our prejudices, setting aside the way we think things should be.. or the way we want them to be... or are afraid they might be... and being quiet enough inside to let the evidence speak to us in its own voice. Letting the world tell us about itself even if the message is initially unintepretable, or frightening, or frustrating, or even joyful.
But you.... you try to hammer everything into the shape you've been told. You wallow in propaganda, and you spray it all over reality. Try to be still. Stop yelling so loud.
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Always look upstream.
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Sig...the silly assertion that it'll take another attack to unify this country was what started this thread. I suggested that not only would it NOT unify this country, that 'some' Left wingers would likely cheer on such an attack. As proof, I offered Churchill and Maher as examples where, after the first attack, Libs found ways to excuse and/ or praised the terrorist.
I wasn't speaking of ALL the Lefties, but merely giving a sample of how 'some' had already reacted. Don't get pissed at me, get pissed at the Ward Churchills and Bill Maher's of the world. No mistake made on my part. Sorry.
You base your view on what Gore or Kerry would do on what Clinton DID. They aren't Clinton, and looking at what their plans were for the country, it's a valid suggestion that they'd increase the size of Gov't. Increased gas taxes, increased income taxes.....all for what ? Raising revenue ? Cutting taxes showed a better way, but no. Gore and Kerry both want MORE control of our economy to come under the umbrella of the Gov't. No thank you.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Allie- Are you saying is that we should openly hope for what Hitler created covertly: a convenient enemy to unite us? Don't you find that a bit scary- that we would potentially value being "united" over being moral and just?
FWIW, IMHO except for blacks who have not yet been fully integrated and STILL face a lot of prejudice, first/second generation immigrants, and minorities of some religions, I don't see "ethnic heritage" as a major cause of our divisiveness. Also, division of opinion is not necessarily a bad thing. ALL nations contain diverse views.
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:Auraptor, you friggin' rhetorical retard*! What you SAID was
Sig...the silly assertion that it'll take another attack to unify this country was what started this thread. I suggested that not only would it NOT unify this country, that 'some' Left wingers would likely cheer on such an attack. As proof, I offered Churchill and Maher as examples where, after the first attack, Libs found ways to excuse and/ or praised the terrorist. I wasn't speaking of ALL the Lefties, but merely giving a sample of how 'some' had already reacted. Don't get pissed at me, get pissed at the Ward Churchills and Bill Maher's of the world. No mistake made on my part. Sorry.
Quote:Not "some of the left wing" or "the far left end of the Liberal mveoment" but THE Left wing. You made exactly the same mistake in the "Chiquita banana" thread
I'd think the Left wing would be cheering for the terrorist next time.
Quote:When will you ever learn????
What you said was It is "not the job of the office of the President to keep us safe from acts of nature." You DIDN'T say "it is not the job of the office of the President to be the PRIMARY responder". Just simply ""not the job"... Next time, try not making such broad-brush statements.
But your rhetorical carelessness is reflective of your mental carelesness: In your broad-brush approach you slop the same friggin color on everything, regardless of what it really is. Quote:You seem to forget that reducing the size of government was one of Al Gore's tasks nas VP and that's exactly what he did. I appreciate a reply in the Chiquita thread.
You base your view on what Gore or Kerry would do on what Clinton DID. They aren't Clinton, and looking at what their plans were for the country, it's a valid suggestion that they'd increase the size of Gov't. Increased gas taxes, increased income taxes.....all for what ? Raising revenue ? Cutting taxes showed a better way, but no. Gore and Kerry both want MORE control of our economy to come under the umbrella of the Gov't. No thank you.
*With apologies to the retarded who really don't deserve this comparison.
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Always look upstream.
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The politicos are eroding our civil rights in the name of national security, funds are being funneled into war when they should go towards education to keep us competative in the world market, and the infrastructure which is beginning to buckle...even the weather is turning against us 
No need for another 9-11; the first one did more than enough. International terrorists need only sit back and watch America at this point. They've done their job, fear is how our house of cards will fall. Hope we can turn this around....Chrisisall
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The only way to bring this nation together is to get to the bottom of what's driving us dysfunctionally apart. (I really don't think we need complete uniformity of opinion.) And what I see is corruption, lies, greed, and sheer mental pathology at the highest levels. Not JUST in politics- altho the corruption is getting so bad the smell must be in the ozone layer by now- but in business as well. How can we come together under a system that's designed to drive us all apart? When we are all set against each other for our very survival? Heck, we kick "fellow Americans" into the gutter every day. And it doesn't seem to matter if we rape the land ahead of future "Americans". Rule of law??? HAHAHAH! What a joke! So WTF does it mean to be "an American"? That, and $1.25-$9.00 will get you a cup of coffee. No wonder we can't see eye to eye on anything; we're all too busy trying to fuck each other over.
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Always look upstream.
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Simple, quit lettin em get away with it.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?
Nobody really wants a fight, but when you are dealing with an established elite of amoral sociopaths, no appeal to conscience, morals or even the law is gonna do ya any good.
We have left but one recourse against it, but the horrific price and risks of such a thing are so awful they are almost beyond reason to even contemplate, and thus people generally choose to suffer under the yoke - till it becomes utterly unbearable.
Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
We've been down this road before, but instead of finishing the job on those damn Tory bastards, we accepted them as Federalists and let them do it to us from inside after throwing off King George.
In over 230 years, they've been little more than a countless and continual misery to everything that makes America what it is, and every truce and reconciliation with them brings us further and closer to the brink, every new "scare" just shows clearer the scorn with which they hold liberty and freedom, and so I say, it's time to give em what they really deserve, and is long overdue in the payment.
A short drop and a sudden stop.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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ALL IT TAKES IS AN INTELLIGENT, MASSIVE SHIFT IN VOTING PATTERNS. Something that even Diebold can't cover up. But that would require a whole paradigm shift, and THAT seems to be the hardest thing of all. People willingly shackle themslves for the right to get fucked over. How sad is that?
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
ALL IT TAKES IS AN INTELLIGENT, MASSIVE SHIFT IN VOTING PATTERNS. Something that even Diebold can't cover up. But that would require a whole paradigm shift, and THAT seems to be the hardest thing of all. People willingly shackle themslves for the right to get fucked over. How sad is that?
You mean shackle themselves to the womb to tomb mentality of the LEFT. That IS fucking sad.
Freedom will save us from the Left. Nothing less.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Hey Frem; got your PM. I'd like to discuss more 'off line', but I gather your FFF registered email is shot... if you PM me an email I promise to 'behave well' with it.
Lead.B
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I wasn't proposing a womb-totomb nanny state, Auraptor. Once again you're reacting to the visions in your head and not what's in front of you. If you could just stop yelling so loud mebbe you'd hear what others are saying.
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:C'mmon Rap. Even I've read enough of Sig's stuff to know he's not wanting the left. He's more of a 'throw the bums out' kinda guy.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
You mean shackle themselves to the womb to tomb mentality of the LEFT. That IS fucking sad.
Freedom will save us from the Left. Nothing less.
The question is, what to take the place of the 'old' left and right. Ron Paul is of interest, despite being a Republican he's clearly not a classic 'Right winger'. A few others. How about some 'different' thinking here? Anything we can even approach agreement on?
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Quote:C'mmon Rap. Even I've read enough of Sig's stuff to know he's not wanting the left. He's more of a 'throw the bums out' kinda guy.
Originally posted by leadb:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
You mean shackle themselves to the womb to tomb mentality of the LEFT. That IS fucking sad.
Freedom will save us from the Left. Nothing less.
The question is, what to take the place of the 'old' left and right. Ron Paul is of interest, despite being a Republican he's clearly not a classic 'Right winger'. A few others. How about some 'different' thinking here? Anything we can even approach agreement on?
The Left is , by definition, womb to tomb Nanny state. Might not have been always, but that's what it is now. And I'm sure as hell not up for 'different' simply to be different. It has to have some substance, some MEANING. I'm all for the Fair Tax, but despite Ron Paul being for it, he's a nut case. Might have some good points, but he's the Howie Dean for the GOP.
So, Fair Tax, or at least keep the tax cuts where they are until we get the Fair Tax.
Let's agree to start agreeing there, ok?
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Ironic coming from the a representative of the party that always scoffs and jeers when we try to pay attention to what our government is doing, that you would call liberals the party of the nanny state.
You don't watch your own fucking politicians...you just listen for the talking points to tell you how to respond to allegations. You are the ones who trust too much to your government.
That isn't really the liberal mo, inspite of how often you try to label us with it. Go back to suckling on Cheney's nipple, and taking his word for it that that salty fluid is milk.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
Ironic coming from the a representative of the party that always scoffs and jeers when we try to pay attention to what our government is doing, that you would call liberals the party of the nanny state.
You don't watch your own fucking politicians...you just listen for the talking points to tell you how to respond to allegations. You are the ones who trust too much to your government.
That isn't really the liberal mo, inspite of how often you try to label us with it. Go back to suckling on Cheney's nipple, and taking his word for it that that salty fluid is milk.
Dick Durbin called our soldiers nazis and compared gitmo to a soviet gulag. OUR party is trying to do something important, like fight Islamic terroirst. All YOU fucking want to do is rip Bush and keep the military from voting in electinos.
It is the Liberal M.O., and it pisses you off that I nailed it dead to rights. You just don't like being called out on it.
Save the sucking jokes for your buddy, Clinton. At least that's one thing didn't trust Hillary with doing.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Please, tell me where I'm wrong.
"
That happens pretty much on a daily basis but does'nt penetrate, so why should it now?
Saying " you're wrong" and showing some one where they are wrong are entirely 2 different things. Maybe one day you'll discover this and post something worthwhile.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
See what I mean?
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Is it me or have AURAPTOR and the rails parted company at last?
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YOUR president is claiming Executive privilege on everything Auraptor. YOUR party is happy to remain blissfully ignorant of information. YOUR party doesn't want to govern, apparently, it wants to be taken care of by a daddy government. YOU want to abdicate responsibility over OUR democracy. We cannot check our politicians if we have no facts. We can't do our jobs as citizens. Apparently you are fine with that. Why do you hate our freedoms?
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Quote:
See what I mean?
No. Please elaborate, if you could.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
YOUR president is claiming Executive privilege on everything Auraptor. YOUR party is happy to remain blissfully ignorant of information. YOUR party doesn't want to govern, apparently, it wants to be taken care of by a daddy government. YOU want to abdicate responsibility over OUR democracy. We cannot check our politicians if we have no facts. We can't do our jobs as citizens. Apparently you are fine with that. Why do you hate our freedoms?
Let's see. Which President hid secret FBI files in their personal offices of 100's of political rivals, and then balked at even knowing how they got there ?
Which 'First Lady' kept stalling a Grand Jury order to present specific papers concerning billing records from Rose Law Firm, and then they somehow appear in her office, with her finger prints all over them?
No,it's YOUR party which wants to drag out partisan investigation after investigation, screaming about Impeachment since all the way back just after Bush was elected, all for the sake of 'getting even'. Your party doesn't want to Govern, they want to rule, and when they can't do that, they want to humiliate and ridicule our Commander in Chief...even during WAR TIME!! When there are legitimate perils to deal with, you a-holes simply want to play politics for the sake of playing games.
None of MY freedoms have been taken away. Have yours ? Oh, you mean the 'freedom' to attack the sitting President when he's of a different political party ? That freedom?
Sorry, you'll need much more than that.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Dude,
your party did a 30 million dollar investigation. It controled the senate. It impeached. Kudos to it. With all of its digging it didn't nail the Clinton's down. My guess is there was probably wrong-doing, but it didn't stick. If you can't nail somebody for it, you can't nail them for it. But you should be at least fucking looking. Inexcusable that the best thing you can do is point back at Clinton. What I want to know is, where is your righteous indignation now? Where is your effort to forward open government in this country? Why are you okay with shit that erodes checks and balances when a President of your party does it?
On edit ---
During wartime? And when exactly is that little window going to close Auraptor? And why, with such sweeping priveleges awarded to the commander in Chief by people like you, should we ever expect to see an end to this war on terror, which Bush himself said we can't ever win.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Allie- Are you saying is that we should openly hope for what Hitler created covertly: a convenient enemy to unite us? Don't you find that a bit scary- that we would potentially value being "united" over being moral and just?
FWIW, IMHO except for blacks who have not yet been fully integrated and STILL face a lot of prejudice, first/second generation immigrants, and minorities of some religions, I don't see "ethnic heritage" as a major cause of our divisiveness. Also, division of opinion is not necessarily a bad thing. ALL nations contain diverse views.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
I didn't say hope. I said exactly what I said- America is so reactionary, that to actually do something, we need a focus. That focus could be a car crash, a terrorist attack, or a hurricane. We have- rather openly-simply refused to do something until we are given some type of proof or galvaniver.
I never said "Hope". I never would- if being fractured and disjointed means three thousand less folk to mourn, then I'd gladly have that.
All I said was that that would be what it would take- we, as a whole, are so busy fighting eachother, that an outside threat is most likely the only thing that could make us stop for a minute.
Even our countrys bloody NAME is meant so that we have some disjointedness- The United States of America. By definition, that means that, although we work together for our collective good, we are first bound to State, and only secondly to Country. When you ask someone where they're from, most like they'd tell you the State. I know I would. We take pride that we are from a STATE of America, but not necessarily America itself.
Hell, that was what very nearly killed us at the beginning- People from the same StAtes wanted to fight together, first and foremost.
As to the second thing- Diversiveness and suchlike... Touche. It very well may strengthen us- or not. We won't know until that scenario actually comes up, and, by then, we'd most likely be fucked anyway.
Ja.
-Danny
We move for all mankind,
A million miles from everything we've ever know...
We're on their hearts and minds,
A million heads are bowed to bring us safely home...
Hemmed in by emptiness,
A million ways that everything could be undone...
THRICE RULES!!!!!!!!!
http://www.myspace.com/otherrandomdude
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See, that's where everyone screws it up....
I got no problem with what anyone else does or believes, hell, more power to em - it's when they wanna force ME to do or believe, that is unacceptable.
They slam THEIR taxes on MY smokes, I gotta issue with that, they make THIER churches tax exempt in spite of the blatant political influance and make every effort to bend the law against any other belief system.
They want THEIR bullshit DCMA to apply to MY property I purchased, and use on MY land, and worst of all, they want THEIR wiretaps on MY phone line and internet.... they want in MY personal business.
Yanno, I don't even know my neighbors name, he don't know mine, and in a very short conversation as we put out the trash one night, we indicated to each other that we like it just that way.
I don't force or coerce other people to do, say, or believe anydamnthing, that's up to them, and all I ever ask is that same respect, but no one seems willing to give it.
Is it really too much to ask other folk and their damned governments to keep the hell out of my life and business ?
Cause that is, in the end, what it comes down to.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:Nope. Your're a happy prisoner.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
None of MY freedoms have been taken away.
I am not a number, I am a FREE MAN!
Ha ha ha ha Chrisisall
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Quote:I consider myself left of center, and I'm not up for womb to tomb. FWIW.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The Left is , by definition, womb to tomb Nanny state. Might not have been always, but that's what it is now. And I'm sure as hell not up for 'different' simply to be different. It has to have some substance, some MEANING. I'm all for the Fair Tax, but despite Ron Paul being for it, he's a nut case. Might have some good points, but he's the Howie Dean for the GOP.
So, Fair Tax, or at least keep the tax cuts where they are until we get the Fair Tax.
Let's agree to start agreeing there, ok?
The Fair Tax? Only vaguely have heard of it. I presume this is a reference to...
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_main
Ok, I'm all for abolishing IRS and it's complexity. I have no objection to replacing it with a sales tax, other than it tends to be a bit regressive in principle; of course, with all the loop holes, it's not clear to me that the income tax is 'genuinely' progressive.
Looking at the website, these statements bother me a bit...
# Enables retirees to keep their entire pension
# Enables workers to keep their entire paycheck
Let's be honest, it doesn't much matter if they take the money up front or on the 'spend' side, they are taking the money. The only advantage is if the tax is 'fairer' and/or more effeciently collected; which is the important part. Just bugs me when they start trying to include irrelevent parts.
In any event, it seems to have some provision for reducing or eliminating the taxes for the poorly paid. So... sure.
And no, I also don't go for different's sake; it has to be meaningful. The point being, if we simply go with 'same old' discussion, nothing changes.
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Quote:Yes. I have been informed by my doctor's office they will provide records at the request of the federal government, and no warrant is required. In fact, they tell me they are not obliged to tell me my records have been provided if they ever are. To the best of my knowledge, they haven't been, but what the heck do I know?
Originally posted by AURaptor:
None of MY freedoms have been taken away. Have yours ?
President Bush has signed an executive order that if you should help someone who has helped someone who has helped someone who is believed to be a terrorist, they can seize all your assets. So far, so good for me. I basically have decided to stop contributing to any group smaller than, say, the American Red Cross as it is simply too hard to checkout who is help who with what. Even then, it still seems like a risky proposition.
I've lost the freedom to speak in private with those I wish to on the phone; no court orders are needed for wire taps.
You may not value these freedoms, but I did.
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Hopefully we suffer a 9/11 attack every year and we can be eternally pissed off at everyone!
We can all enjoy our 5 minutes hate every morning and in a generation or two we won't even question the Constitutionality of illegal wiretapping because there is no word for Constitution in Newspeak.
Boy, that would be Double Plus Good!
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
Rightious9 wrote: ..... With all of its digging it didn't nail the Clinton's down. My guess is there was probably wrong-doing, but it didn't stick. If you can't nail somebody for it, you can't nail them for it. But you should be at least fucking looking.
Interesting how you glossed over the 2 topics I brought up. There was 'some wrong doing' when hundreds of secret FBI files suddenly 'show up' at the White House, but no one knows how ???
Fuck it , I give up.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:Sounds like you might have a special circumstance which is related to public health. Other than that, I can't see why you'd be any different than anyone else.
Originally posted by leadb:Quote:Yes. I have been informed by my doctor's office they will provide records at the request of the federal government, and no warrant is required. In fact, they tell me they are not obliged to tell me my records have been provided if they ever are. To the best of my knowledge, they haven't been, but what the heck do I know?
Originally posted by AURaptor:
None of MY freedoms have been taken away. Have yours ?
Quote:Does the E.O. really read " if you should help someone who has helped someone who has helped someone who is believed to be a terrorist... " ? If so, I'd at least like a reference.
President Bush has signed an executive order that if you should help someone who has helped someone who has helped someone who is believed to be a terrorist, they can seize all your assets. So far, so good for me. I basically have decided to stop contributing to any group smaller than, say, the American Red Cross as it is simply too hard to checkout who is help who with what. Even then, it still seems like a risky proposition.
Quote:I'd question whether or not you ever really had that 'freedom' in the first place, just as I'd challenge your broad brush approach that you, as any random Joe citizen, will or could have your phone " wire tapped ". As I understand it, no such activiity is taking place, what so ever. Certain requirements must first be met ( the person you're chatting with being a suspected terrorist as one ). The fact is, the Fed has had the ability to listen into ANY conversation, w/ out use of a physical wire tap. Google 'Carnivore' and 'communication' . You'll see this sort of stuff dates back to the Clinton era. But only after we've been attacked on our own soil and a Republican is in the White House do folks want to stand up and make an issue of it. I find that a bit odd.
I've lost the freedom to speak in private with those I wish to on the phone; no court orders are needed for wire taps.
You may not value these freedoms, but I did.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:Sounds like you might have a special circumstance which is related to public health. Other than that, I can't see why you'd be any different than anyone else.
Originally posted by leadb:Quote:Yes. I have been informed by my doctor's office they will provide records at the request of the federal government, and no warrant is required. In fact, they tell me they are not obliged to tell me my records have been provided if they ever are. To the best of my knowledge, they haven't been, but what the heck do I know?
Originally posted by AURaptor:
None of MY freedoms have been taken away. Have yours ?
I wasn't being treated different than everyone else. Everyone that day was getting the form, I watched. Most of the sheep signed it. I refused, and turned it in telling the receptionist that the form was giving implied consent based on the phrasing, that I would be willing to provide a statement acknowledging they believed what was there to be true and what they 'had' to do; but that I felt it was unconstitutional and that they should not comply with such requests. They were content to take the form back unsigned. I saw the doctor that day, and they never raised the point again.
Quote:No,it merely says if you help anyone who has been found to be 'marked', then you can be 'marked'; it does not provide any limit to how many 'layers back' you peel the onion.Quote:Does the E.O. really read " if you should help someone who has helped someone who has helped someone who is believed to be a terrorist... " ? If so, I'd at least like a reference.
President Bush has signed an executive order that if you should help someone who has helped someone who has helped someone who is believed to be a terrorist, they can seize all your assets. So far, so good for me. I basically have decided to stop contributing to any group smaller than, say, the American Red Cross as it is simply too hard to checkout who is help who with what. Even then, it still seems like a risky proposition.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=29739
for the discussions in these forums, and it has a link to the EO, which you may read.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070717-3.html
Quote:'suspected' terrorist... maybe that doesn't worry you. In the past, it would have had to been proven to a relatively objective judical review; now it doesn't. All they have to do is pick either party on either end of the phone and simply state 'we suspect'.Quote:I'd question whether or not you ever really had that 'freedom' in the first place, just as I'd challenge your broad brush approach that you, as any random Joe citizen, will or could have your phone " wire tapped ". As I understand it, no such activiity is taking place, what so ever. Certain requirements must first be met ( the person you're chatting with being a suspected terrorist as one ). The fact is, the Fed has had the ability to listen into ANY conversation, w/ out use of a physical wire tap. Google 'Carnivore' and 'communication' . You'll see this sort of stuff dates back to the Clinton era. But only after we've been attacked on our own soil and a Republican is in the White House do folks want to stand up and make an issue of it. I find that a bit odd.
I've lost the freedom to speak in private with those I wish to on the phone; no court orders are needed for wire taps.
You may not value these freedoms, but I did.
Wiretap is now the common interpretation of 'using' those tools. Unless you maintain that under the Clinton administration they -were- listening to arbitrary calls; if that is your point, please state it plainly. You will note I'm not asking for measures to be put in place to have 'Carnivore' removed, I'm simply saying they should not listen unless there is a reason. And that reason should be sustained by a court order, IMHO. If you think there's no difference between having the infrastructure in place to
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Lead, do you really think those rabid alphabet agency lunatics haven't been doing this crap from the very second of their inception, legally or not ?
I mean, seriously, I can go all the way back to operation HTLINGUAL and show you that.
What really brought it to my attention, and you can look this stuff up yourself cause I really don't have time this morning, is something that happened in the mid-late 90s.
The FBI went on a little field trip to the Soviet Union in order to hone their unlawful domestic spying abilities, and they were practically slavering and drooling over the Soviet SORM-II internet monitoring system, to the point of being so eager to copy it here that Congress felt the need, in spite of the fact that it was *already* illegal for them to do so - to explicitly forbid them to build it, forbid them to fund it, and forbid them to ever USE it on american citizens if they ever found a way around the first two.
(Carnivore/Omnivore is basically just an updated clone of SORM-II, mind you.)
And what did they do ?
IMMEDIATELY funded it, built it, and then started using it on americans right away - violating their charter, the law, and three congressional directives, spitting in the face of Congress, just like the DOJ is doing right now over the whole subpeano issue... man, if you or I told the courts were to stuff a subpeano, we'd be staring down the barrels of a SWAT team before you could even blink.
The Patriot act may have illegally (ex-post facto) and retroactively granted them permission, but for a long time prior to that the FBI was operating completely rogue in clear defiance of their charter and assigned function, and it's anything but the first time our alphabet agencies have done so - the church commission and FISA were somewhat of an attempt to tighten the leash on these rabid maniacs, because in hindsight the damage they do is far and away beyond anything that ever happened here since shermans march, and that includes 9-11, cause if you tally up the death toll from their own actions, it does in fact exceed that, and it doesn't even come close to the amount of economic damage and ruined lives and careers under COINTELPRO and other assorted programs of that nature.
They've almost never even performed their assigned function, choosing to instead harrass, intimidate, spy on and ever murder the very people they are supposed to be protecting - they are a poison within us, the arsenic in the states kool-aid, and ten times the threat any terrorist organisation ever was or will be.
Any yet when they come round at appropriates time for more funding, it's handed right on over, isn't it ?
I dunno about you, but if MY guard dog started mauling peoples kids while not bothering to defend my property, I sure as hell wouldn't be patting it on the head and throwing it treats.
Yeah, it's nuts, and took a good close look at Raps crazy fortress mindset and consider that THOSE are the kind of people that operate said alphabet agencies... and are then given massive budgets with no control or oversight.
YOUR money, MY money, used to commit terrorism, against US, in the name of "keeping order".
And folks wonder why imma Anarchist....
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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I always find it quite hysterical that the same people screaming their personal business into their cell phones all day in public, for all to hear, are worried about losing their "privacy."
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Quote:Keep in mind my intention here was to try to keep Rap on track for a discussion perhaps to a conclusion on a particular point.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Lead, do you really think those rabid alphabet agency lunatics haven't been doing this crap from the very second of their inception, legally or not ?
I mean, seriously, I can go all the way back to operation HTLINGUAL and show you that.
I will grant you raise a number of concerns, worthy of additional research; and I will dig a bit later.
The point I was trying to make is that we are having further erosions of freedom. It is one thing if they listen to my conversations illegally; if I can prove they did so, in theory legal action can be taken. If they manage to legalize it, I can't even do that. I admit, what hope to I have to win such a battle even if they don't legalize it? Not much, but 'at least' I have that to stand on. Again, simply because a thing can be done does not permit them to do it. I stand by my original position stated to Rap that what I described was a further erosion; if you disagree with that, please so note.
Now, if we can get agreement on that (and I mean more with Rap, I'm reasonably confident you will agree it is a further erosion), perhaps then the next question is 'what is the correct response to this erosion?'?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I always find it quite hysterical that the same people screaming their personal business into their cell phones all day in public, for all to hear, are worried about losing their "privacy."
Me too. I'm not one of them. I attempt to keep all conversions I wish to be private to be held at least only in my home, and I'm committed to retain a land line for privacy's sake. Doesn't help entirely if the person on the other end is a cell phone user, but I do what I can.
As far as cell courtesy, I am very careful to use my cell in consideration of others. It is on vibrate at restraunts, and is not answered (folks can go to voice mail, that's what the stinking thing is for).
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I always find it quite hysterical that the same people screaming their personal business into their cell phones all day in public, for all to hear, are worried about losing their "privacy."
We also post our lives, feelings and emotions here J....
Dunno why.... could be because we feel that people need to say things like this so younger generations can hear it and realize that it's not normal for kids to grow up in classrooms where they're being video recorded the entire time they're there, just in case their teacher rapes them. If we're watched all the time J, and we're unable to make any decisions of our own based on fear of the repercussions that we could face for actually making our own choices in a world where we could be watched at any time..... we're nothing but robots then.
Consider cops today.... Even when I was 16 years old I got pulled over quite a bit, but cops liked me. I played the game. I still do. But now cops have a lot of gadgets that not only help them, but in many cases smother thier ability to be "human". Without even being a cop myself, I'm positive that your average street cop is granted a certain amount of "warnings" per week or month, or if they've met their quotas they're able to give breaks. Recently, even cops that I was sure weren't going to give me tickets at the end of our conversations gave me them. (I've got plenty of good cops stories... I've never been arrested for anything, but I'm a bit of a speed demon and probalby have a winning record if I tabulate the amount of tickets to the amount I've gotten out of)......
My point is that even today, the last time I got pulled over, which was about 2 months ago, the cop let me go because we were born in the same hospital. I think our conversation beforehand in large part had a lot to do with the events leading up to my getting away scott-free.... but he cut me a break....
Until that day, I was certain that I'd never get away with it again. I've had cops tell me that once they've started writing the ticket that they have no choice but to issue it. My heart warmed a bit when that cop let me go because I realized that at least in some parts of this country there is still a human heart beating in our police force. He could have given me a ticket for speeding that night, but we made a connection and he let me go. It was 2 in the morning and nobody was out and I wasn't drinking. I wasn't endangering anyones life going 45 on a 35 road with my wits about me. He cut me some slack, and unwittingly gave me a bit of my humanity back. He made me realize that even as bad as it's gotten recently, there still is a human heart beating in our governmental structure....
Above all, that's what I fear we will lose the most.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Neat story Jack, thanks for sharing.
One point I'd like to make, our discussions here are clearly public; and what I choose to post here, I clearly have no expectation of privacy. There are things I will not discuss in public, and I will either refrain from discussing them, drop to PM, or email. If I feel something warrants serious privacy, it gets encrypted or uses some means where I expect privacy... like a phone call placed from my home.
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I always find it quite hysterical that the same people screaming their personal business into their cell phones all day in public, for all to hear, are worried about losing their "privacy.
We also post our lives, feelings and emotions here J....
Dunno why.... could be because we feel that people need to say things like this so younger generations can hear it and realize that it's not normal for kids to grow up in classrooms where they're being video recorded the entire time they're there, just in case their teacher rapes them. If we're watched all the time J, and we're unable to make any decisions of our own based on fear of the repercussions that we could face for actually making our own choices in a world where we could be watched at any time..... we're nothing but robots then.
Consider cops today.... Even when I was 16 years old I got pulled over quite a bit, but cops liked me. I played the game. I still do. But now cops have a lot of gadgets that not only help them, but in many cases smother thier ability to be "human". Without even being a cop myself, I'm positive that your average street cop is granted a certain amount of "warnings" per week or month, or if they've met their quotas they're able to give breaks. Recently, even cops that I was sure weren't going to give me tickets at the end of our conversations gave me them. (I've got plenty of good cops stories... I've never been arrested for anything, but I'm a bit of a speed demon and probalby have a winning record if I tabulate the amount of tickets to the amount I've gotten out of)......
My point is that even today, the last time I got pulled over, which was about 2 months ago, the cop let me go because we were born in the same hospital. I think our conversation beforehand in large part had a lot to do with the events leading up to my getting away scott-free.... but he cut me a break....
Until that day, I was certain that I'd never get away with it again. I've had cops tell me that once they've started writing the ticket that they have no choice but to issue it. My heart warmed a bit when that cop let me go because I realized that at least in some parts of this country there is still a human heart beating in our police force. He could have given me a ticket for speeding that night, but we made a connection and he let me go. It was 2 in the morning and nobody was out and I wasn't drinking. I wasn't endangering anyones life going 45 on a 35 road with my wits about me. He cut me some slack, and unwittingly gave me a bit of my humanity back. He made me realize that even as bad as it's gotten recently, there still is a human heart beating in our governmental structure....
Above all, that's what I fear we will lose the most.
Nice post 6ixString...I think the vast majority of people in the Government are good and decent people, same as in the private sector. Because we only really ever hear about the bad apples, so many bad apples sometimes, it seems like everything in the world is corrupt and inept. That's why it's a good idea to keep your sense of humor handy whenever your first instinct is too get agitated....especially 'bout things and/or people you cannot do anything about. All you really can do to change anything is to vote for candidates you believe in, ones who have a track record of achievements that agree with your positions. Political promises, politically expedient flip-floppers, and opponent bashing will never help you or I one iota.
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Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I always find it quite hysterical that the same people screaming their personal business into their cell phones all day in public, for all to hear, are worried about losing their "privacy."
Me too. I'm not one of them. I attempt to keep all conversions I wish to be private to be held at least only in my home, and I'm committed to retain a land line for privacy's sake. Doesn't help entirely if the person on the other end is a cell phone user, but I do what I can.
As far as cell courtesy, I am very careful to use my cell in consideration of others. It is on vibrate at restraunts, and is not answered (folks can go to voice mail, that's what the stinking thing is for).
We need more citizens like you! Selfless & respectful of other folks around them...I'm startin' to get a little teary-eyed here just thinking that your post has given me hope for South Florida's human noise pollution problem.
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I think you're right about a lot of the people J.... it's just the unscrupulous people and their weapons of mass destruction and how they target our ability to continue being human to each other. I'm afraid of losing that... I think there really is a lot of good in humanity, but it won't ever be showcased if we're all forced to obey our masters through fear of the bad in humanity.
Like I said before... I don't belive in the Lord of the Flies.... if those boys had good women pointing thier heads in the right direction there woudn't have been chaos. That book was practically OZ without the gay sex. The lack of Government wasn't to blame in the least for Piggy's untimely demise. "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I think you're right about a lot of the people J.... it's just the unscrupulous people and their weapons of mass destruction and how they target our ability to continue being human to each other. I'm afraid of losing that... I think there really is a lot of good in humanity, but it won't ever be showcased if we're all forced to obey our masters through fear of the bad in humanity.
Like I said before... I don't belive in the Lord of the Flies.... if those boys had good women pointing thier heads in the right direction there woudn't have been chaos. That book was practically OZ without the gay sex. The lack of Government wasn't to blame in the least for Piggy's untimely demise.
Look, the hard truth here is that Good Men really would rather not have to confront Evil Men. Confrontations, threats, blockades, sanctions, wars, etc. are regrettable acts that no one wants. I was a pretty happy camper on Sept. 10, 2001...good job, proud family, a few bucks in the bank. I'm still basically the same; and although I (like most) are mesmorized by the endless brutality of the terrorists, I don't worry about it in my daily life, or really what is done to fight and defeat them. I trust that our Government, Dems & Reps...Libs & Cons alike, will do what they can to protect us. I don't care about the fine print, so to speak, of how they do it....I'm not out there wearing a badge and putting my life on the line every day, so I leave it to the professionals to safeguard America. God forbid if there ever is a serious attack, and armies of Jihadists are combing through the streets of Weston, Florida looking for infidels to shoot...I will be ready to defend my family with my snub-nose 38, my Remington 12 gauge, and as a last resort, some week-old dried out potato latkes.
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You lost me until the end there J....
When that time comes, if it ever does, I will consider you a brother in arms and we will fight to the death to protect us and ours.
Don't ever give up that right to bear arms, ya hear? "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:Yes. We did. There are two ways of looking at "privacy": one way views privacy as a thing onto itself, the other is the "no harm no foul" interpretation. So if someone were to execute a "sneak and peak" search of your home and (a) nothing ever came of it and (b) you didn't ever learn about it, the FIRST interpretation would say that your privacy had been violated while the second interpretation would say that it had not. Until quire recently, the government treated privacy (in theory at least) as a thing unto itself and that would be MY interpretation as well.
i'd question whether or not you ever really had that 'freedom' in the first place,
Quote:Well I've been making an issue of it for quite a while, and so have a number of other people. Just because you weren't aware of both the issue AND the response doesn't mean that it didn't happen.
. just as I'd challenge your broad brush approach that you, as any random Joe citizen, will or could have your phone " wire tapped ". As I understand it, no such activiity is taking place, what so ever. Certain requirements must first be met ( the person you're chatting with being a suspected terrorist as one ). The fact is, the Fed has had the ability to listen into ANY conversation, w/ out use of a physical wire tap. Google 'Carnivore' and 'communication' . You'll see this sort of stuff dates back to the Clinton era. But only after we've been attacked on our own soil and a Republican is in the White House do folks want to stand up and make an issue of it. I find that a bit odd.
And here's the thing Auraptor: If the government is meeting all of those requirements, then why in hell didn't they just GET a FISA directive? (Same as a warrant, different name) Heck, they can even get one 72-hours after the fact! The ONLY reason to do what they did is to create a precedent that says I'm the President and I can do whatever I want, Courts be damned. The whole conundrum about security OR civil right is a very very very very false dichotomy, only you're either too stupid to see that or too willing to bend over and see other people bent over.
Like I said: People will willingly shackle themselves for the right to get fucked over. Or in your case, to fuck over someone else. How sad is that?
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You're a sad little king of a sad little hill.
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Sig,
We actually had gotten down to a fairly civil tone; and I'd've been proud to call your append above mine up until the word 'dichotomy'; the rest is inflammatory and, IMHO, not helpful to a civil debate.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
We already had one 9/11, and look where we are. I'd think the Left wing would be cheering for the terrorist next time.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
Ah.. what? I think your mind may have wandered and never came back. The last thing the Left wants is anything that gives the right a chance to do this anymore.
Reporter - "Well what do you think about the state of our education system?"
Republican - "I admit it isn't exactly what we want it to be, but you can't forget about 9/11!"
Reporter - "Okay. Would you concede that our infrastructure is in rapid decline at the same time we spend billions on Iraq's?"
Republican - "Well, if that's true....Can you imagine the shape we would be in if we allowed the terrorists to blow it all up?"
Reporter - "Why do I get a feeling you aren't being entirely candid with me, sir?"
Republican - "I would have to say you are under some kind of mind-control manipulation that that the terrorists are trying to use on the American populous from some sort of new WMD or the 9/11 Muslim-witch potion."
Reporter - "What?"
*Fox reporter steps in*
Fox reporter - "Let me see if I can help clarify what Republican is saying...there have been reports coming from our intelligence that a memo, that is reported as being confirmed to have been written by Osama, has surfaced in a cave in Dubrakastan. This report mentions a possible terror plot to release 9/11 Muslim-witch potion on the masses. It states further that it will probably be released within days...I think that is why the Homeland security department took a preemptive step and raised the terror threat to Black."
Reporter - "Black?"
Fox reporter - "Yep. Don't be alarmed. This only means you can't leave your house this week."
Republican - "That is correct. See, we can never let our guard down against these barbaric terrorists. We never want to see another 9/11."
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Quote:Unfortunately, when I read Auraptor's posts I go from "simmer" to "boil" in about 0.10 seconds.
Sig,We actually had gotten down to a fairly civil tone; and I'd've been proud to call your append above mine up until the word 'dichotomy'; the rest is inflammatory and, IMHO, not helpful to a civil debate.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
They were content to take the form back unsigned. I saw the doctor that day, and they never raised the point again.
So then, you admit that this was voluntary, and that there wasn't any real imposition by the Fed Gov't into your life or freedoms, right ? I have been asked my phone number and/ or address at certain stores. I politely decline. Just because they ask doesn't mean you have to answer. Well, unless it's the IRS.
Look, we're gonna actually agree on the power of the Federal Gov't being too strong in certain places, but there also has to be a pragmatic view on such matters concerning terrorism. You're aware of the GORELICK wall of seperation between different branches of Gov't. Granted, this didn't involve infringing on the rights of citizens by the Fed Gov't, but we do tend to paint ourselves in a box when it comes to trying to prevent major terrorist activity. It's not always so simple to decipher, I'll agree.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Sig wrote: And here's the thing Auraptor: If the government is meeting all of those requirements, then why in hell didn't they just GET a FISA directive? (Same as a warrant, different name) Heck, they can even get one 72-hours after the fact! The ONLY reason to do what they did is to create a precedent that says I'm the President and I can do whatever I want, Courts be damned. The whole conundrum about security OR civil right is a very very very very false dichotomy, only you're either too stupid to see that or too willing to bend over and see other people bent over.
Unlike you, Sig, I'm willing to take a pragmatic view on the issue. Why the hell didn't they just GET a FISA directive ? Maybe because they were afraid of leaks, as seems to be case. Seems some would rather sabotage the President's office than see us track down the terrorists. Or it could be because Foreign Intelligence Suveillance Act is too slow by today's standards to be of any real benefit. But since you've likely already talked about all this, you've casually dismissed it , out of hand, as nothing more than neocon 'talking points', and have some colorful, perjorative remark to make about anyone who disagrees with your position.
Of course, if you don't like the answer, why even ask the question? Sorry, but I'll side w/ the President and the 'need to know ' crowd on this one.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:No, I don't admit it was voluntary. The form -stated- that the feds could do this. The form was a bit 'odd' in that 'by signing below' I was agreeing that they 'could', which is why I didn't sign it. When I say 'could' they were not asking me permission; they were simply making the observation then wanting me to agree. The receptionist didn't seem to have a clue on the matter, so needless to say, it's not like we had a meaningful discussion. Another point, I also had an eye doctor appointment the same week. Same form, going out to everyone that day. Again, no meaningful discussion, I declined to sign the form again. If I recall the 'point' of the form was that I wouldn't sue them if they complied to the federal requirements, so what I was really declining was to not sue them if they did comply. I should caution this was about a year ago, I didn't keep a copy of the form, and this is from memory. The form stated the the federal prerogatives as a 'fact.' No, I did not go home to and check to make sure they were not simply full of hookum.
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
They were content to take the form back unsigned. I saw the doctor that day, and they never raised the point again.
So then, you admit that this was voluntary, and that there wasn't any real imposition by the Fed Gov't into your life or freedoms, right ? I have been asked my phone number and/ or address at certain stores. I politely decline. Just because they ask doesn't mean you have to answer. Well, unless it's the IRS.
Look, we're gonna actually agree on the power of the Federal Gov't being too strong in certain places, but there also has to be a pragmatic view on such matters concerning terrorism. You're aware of the GORELICK wall of seperation between different branches of Gov't. Granted, this didn't involve infringing on the rights of citizens by the Fed Gov't, but we do tend to paint ourselves in a box when it comes to trying to prevent major terrorist activity. It's not always so simple to decipher, I'll agree.
As far as the 'walls' in internal gov. red tape, I have a tendency to agree if the data is legally obtained, and various controls/privacy concerns are addressed, the agencies should be able to do needed cross references. Yes, we can paint ourselves into a corner; it needs to be avoided.
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"Seems some would rather sabotage the President's office than see us track down the terrorists. Or it could be because Foreign Intelligence Suveillance Act is too slow by today's standards to be of any real benefit."
"Some would rather sabotage the President's office ..." Who are those "some" Rap ? Any evidence for it ? Please be specific.
"Foreign Intelligence Suveillance Act is too slow by today's standards ..."
Really ? Surveillance gets a 72 hour head start. How could it be made any faster than that ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
We already had one 9/11, and look where we are. I'd think the Left wing would be cheering for the terrorist next time.
What do you mean you think they'd be cheering? They do it every day, every single day for years; alternately cheering, and defending, and emoting for their jihadist brothers...THEY SUPPORT EACHOTHER....greatly and almost lovingly assisting each team to attain their respective goals...
The Left is rooting for and doing everything possible to help the terrorists; a treasonous course of action designed to put their Howard Dean/Al Franken-approved candidates in office, and keep the current cast of Pelositic Pathetics chairing all the key committees that are responsible for gay love in maple trees being legal in front of my house...aka, their well-known agenda of godless, morality-challenged secular-progressive George Sorosesque mental masterbatory fantasy vision of America...while the terrorists use their useful idiots here in America and all over the world to forestall & weaken the world's resolve to unite against them. That video we all saw of Osama & Mull-Man Omar & Zawahiri all jumping & cheering at the buildings coming down on 911 was NOT about their success in killing thousands of innocent people of all religions and origins..NO NO...they were gleefully ecstatic and cheering with tears that it wasn't gonna take but a few minutes before the momentarily-silenced Left would be out in force as they hoped and counted on blaming America and Bush and Christianity & Jews for their little gift to us...heck, another 911 attack killing thousands of people(preferably in a Red State), would send the Left into a frenzied overdose of happiness and joy....they'd all be out there in one of their Soros organized-funded demonstrations holding up signs (printed by Haliburton's silly protestors' sign division) with sayings like : We Love Islamic Beheaders, or Slit My Throat Next Achmed, and Clean Towels and Sheets For Our Al Qaida-Caucus Democrats Free Here, and Stone Me, My Bearded Brothers, I Peeked At Your Camel's Tits, etc. etc. And then Barbara Streisand would sing a benefit concert to raise millions for the muslim widows of the attackers.
hard concept for some I know, but its our Current government that are the terrorist
I read through this whole thread, and it makes me sad that some people still refuse for whatever reason to see what our government is doing... it literally makes me sick to my stomach!
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Quote:Now how I miss such a fine
What do you mean you think they'd be cheering? They do it every day, every single day for years; alternately cheering, and defending, and emoting for their jihadist brothers...THEY SUPPORT EACHOTHER....greatly and almost lovingly assisting each team to attain their respective goals...
The Left is rooting for and doing everything possible to help the terrorists; a treasonous course of action designed to put their Howard Dean/Al Franken-approved candidates in office, and keep the current cast of Pelositic Pathetics chairing all the key committees that are responsible for gay love in maple trees being legal in front of my house...aka, their well-known agenda of godless, morality-challenged secular-progressive George Sorosesque mental masterbatory fantasy vision of America...while the terrorists use their useful idiots here in America and all over the world to forestall & weaken the world's resolve to unite against them. That video we all saw of Osama & Mull-Man Omar & Zawahiri all jumping & cheering at the buildings coming down on 911 was NOT about their success in killing thousands of innocent people of all religions and origins..NO NO...they were gleefully ecstatic and cheering with tears that it wasn't gonna take but a few minutes before the momentarily-silenced Left would be out in force as they hoped and counted on blaming America and Bush and Christianity & Jews for their little gift to us...heck, ... would send the Left into a frenzied overdose of happiness and joy....they'd all be out there in one of their Soros organized-funded demonstrations holding up signs (printed by Haliburton's silly protestors' sign division) with sayings like : We Love Islamic Beheaders, or Slit My Throat Next Achmed, and Clean Towels and Sheets For Our Al Qaida-Caucus Democrats Free Here, and Stone Me, My Bearded Brothers, I Peeked At Your Camel's Tits, etc. etc. And then Barbara Streisand would sing a benefit concert to raise millions for the muslim widows of the attackers.
post ? Pardon me while I go and puke. ***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Jong
"I'm still basically the same; and although I (like most) are mesmerized by the endless brutality of the terrorists ..."
The everyday religious non-terrorist nuts in Afghanistan are far worse, but I don't see you calling for US troops to 'reform' the country.
"... I don't worry about it in my daily life, ..."
Isn't that the criticism made of "the left"? (Which is anyone to the left of Bush/Cheney). The progressives just don't understand the seriousness of the problem. sigh
"I trust that our Government, Dems & Reps...Libs & Cons alike, will do what they can to protect us. I don't care about the fine print, so to speak, of how they do it...."
I say, leave Democracy to the Government ! Where it belongs !
"God forbid if there ever is a serious attack, and armies of Jihadists are combing through the streets of Weston, Florida looking for infidels to shoot..."
OMG, what paranoid fantasy world does this come from ?
"... as a last resort, some week-old dried out potato latkes."
Cyanide works better.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:Has the FISA Court ever leaked anything? No. There are 11 FISA judges, all appointed SINCE 2000. So how did you come up with this "leak" idea.. at least from the FISC? It doesn't seem to be grounded in reality. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Court
Unlike you, Sig, I'm willing to take a pragmatic view on the issue. Why the hell didn't they just GET a FISA directive ? Maybe because they were afraid of leaks, as seems to be case.
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Always look upstream.
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What we got here.. is failure... to communicate, some men, ya just can't reach, and so, ya get what we had last week here, which is how he wants it... well, he gets it...
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Quote:While Joe Wilson and Val Plame don't technically count, as there was no real leak of any national security value, they did indeed lie in an attempt to harm the office of the President.
Originally posted by rue:
"Seems some would rather sabotage the President's office than see us track down the terrorists. Or it could be because Foreign Intelligence Suveillance Act is too slow by today's standards to be of any real benefit."
"Some would rather sabotage the President's office ..." Who are those "some" Rap ? Any evidence for it ? Please be specific.
And as for other specifics, we have the NY Times, the L.A. Times and the Washington Post. All 3 are guilty of printing various stories on leaks which the administration specifically asked them NOT to run. One such leak was the SWIFT program.
" By all accounts, the program has been a ringing success. The administration maintains that the TFTP has been central to mapping terror cells and their tentacles, and to shutting off their funding spigot. It has resulted in at least one major domestic prosecution for providing material support to al Qaeda. It has also led to the apprehension of one of the jihad’s most insulated and ruthless operatives, Jemaah Islamiya’s Riduan Isamuddin, who is tied to the 2002 Bali bombing.
But as has happened with other crucial counterterrorism tools — such as the NSA’s program to monitor the enemy’s international communications, which the New York Times exposed, and the CIA’s arrangements for our allies to detain high-level Qaeda operatives, which the Washington Post compromised — the TFTP’s existence was disclosed to the Times and other newspapers by anonymous government officials, in violation of their legal obligation to maintain secrecy. The Bush administration pleaded with the newspapers not to publish what they had learned. But these requests, rooted in the national-security interests of the United States, were rebuffed. "
Feel better now ? I sure as hell don't.
People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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And I don't like it any more than you do
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Here's the source, for anyone interested in reading the whole thing. It's that right-wing rag The National Review. http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDVhYWQzMmQ3YWRlNzFkYjRmZmY4ZTQzZ
mUwZjJhZjI=
Yes, I can see that the WashPost, the NYTimes anf the LATimes are all to blame. Somehow they coerced information, or they read tarot cards. It wasn't leaked by someone in the Bush administration itself. Nah, that would never happen. 
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Bush doesn't DARE ask the FISC for warrants because Auraptor thinks that Bush believes that his very own Court appointees are going to leak actual warrant info like a sieve??
Man the bilge pumps!
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:Some like to believe that seemingly random events are the work of God, who has a plan. Others believe that seemingly random wars are the work of Bush, who has a plan.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Man the bilge pumps!
Others need no 'beliefs', and assess the merits or lack of same on a issue by issue basis. Damn logic...it has no place for foolishness...doesn't make one feel as comfy about things...presents challenges...
Why couldn't I be born stupid like the masses?!?!?!Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Why couldn't I be born stupid like the masses?!?!?!Chrisisall
Wow, what a great question Chris. What, IYO, led in becoming smarter than everyone else? Could it be genetic makeup? What about the whole nature vs. nuture argument. Did you get lots of love and support growing up that the masses did not? Was the environment where you grew up more conducive to logical thought than elsewhere in the country? Was it special schooling that led to your enviable position today or simply dumb luck. Perhaps by getting to the root of your intellectual success future generations of masses will no longer have to wallow in their own stupidity.
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Not to pick on you Rap, but I had to pick somebody ...
Here are some of your worst gaffes:
I'd think the Left wing would be cheering for the terrorist next time. I just think that next time, those on the Left will be cheering WHILE the attacks are going on ... I wasn't speaking of ALL the Lefties (the last bit is called a climb-down)
You mean shackle themselves to the womb to tomb mentality of the LEFT. That IS fucking sad. The Left is , by definition, womb to tomb Nanny state (making up facts as you go along)
OUR party is trying to do something important, like fight Islamic terroirst.(while quagmired in Iraq no less !)
It is the Liberal M.O., and it pisses you off that I nailed it dead to rights. You just don't like being called out on it. (What was the point again ??)
No,it's YOUR party which wants to drag out partisan investigation after investigation, screaming about Impeachment ... (Yes, the investigations have been dragging on for years - years - costing tens of millions of dollars already !)
None of MY freedoms have been taken away. (White republican. At least you still can vote, unlike some). Have yours ? (Shall I list the ways we've ALL lost our rights ? Naw, you wouldn't read it anyway.) Oh, you mean the 'freedom' to attack the sitting President when he's of a different political party ? That freedom? (Sounds like democracy to me.)
Why the hell didn't they just GET a FISA directive ? Maybe because they were afraid of leaks, as seems to be case. Seems some would rather sabotage the President's office than see us track down the terrorists. (Now who could that be ? People inside the WH ? I guess they could be those "some people" you speak about.)
The entire sum of your argument is that "the Left" (anyone who disagrees with Bush) hates Bush so much they support global Islamists. For proof you cite Churchill and Maher, "some people" who leak 
, the newpapers, non-existent investigations. As opposed to you, the hero. It's a fucking joke.
Get over yourself, dude.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:While there is no single answer, the main cause on my inflated intelect (relative the the average) would be curiosity- the need to know how things work. Most peeps are content not quite knowing how an internal combustion engine works, or how a virus is actually transmitted. Early curiosity can lead to neuron growth that might not normally occur. Exactly HOW that curiosity is stimulated is another few hundred answers...
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Perhaps by getting to the root of your intellectual success future generations of masses will no longer have to wallow in their own stupidity.
He stoops to entertain Chrisisall
Edit to add: BDN, how's your IQ, btw? Stellar or Earthbound?
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
BDN, how's your IQ, btw? Stellar or Earthbound?
Neither, I would place myself somewhere in the tropo to mesospheric range.
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For myself- pretty damn earthbound. I'm slow. Really. It takes me foreffingever to "get" something. I don't trust new ideas, not do I see the possibilities in new technologies. Maybe it has to do with being shy. So I have to grind on stuff 24-7. Seriously.
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Always look upstream.
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Professionals have told me I'm "bright", but I look at people all around and think I'm no smarter than they are. Except for a few people, who seem to make a point of being obtuse.
But, Chris, is all, and SignyM ... if I could be as smart as either of you, I'd feel lucky.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:Rue, this is strange to read, because I'd feel lucky to seem as bright as either you or Signy...
Originally posted by rue:
But, Chris, is all, and SignyM ... if I could be as smart as either of you, I'd feel lucky.
*would this constitute an intellectual circle-jerk?*
Puny 130 Chrisisall
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Well, where I work it's all a bunch of what are supposedly really smart people. But when I go on jury duty I think - man these people are effin' brilliant.
So maybe it's just me thinking the way I do. Though I seriously wonder why SignyM says (s)he's slow.
Circle jerk ? If being honest is a circle jerk, I suppose it is.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Large difference between intelligence and sense.
lil story for ya...
Some brilliant scientist, he decides to take up a hobby, and so he buys this kit "teach a flew to jump on command, amaze your friends" etc..
And so, he teaches the flea to jump, but being a scientist, decides to then experiment, so he removes one leg from the flea, and tells it to jump, and measures how high, and another, and another, till it's down to one leg and just kinda hops when told to jump.
And so he removes the final leg, and tells it to jump, and of course, it doesn't budge.
And so he writes up a paper on how a flea hears with it's legs, because as you remove them, it's hearing gets progressively worse.
Even a genius can be a moron.
Of intellect and cleverness, I'll pick the latter, having been blessed with it and knowing of it's value.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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