Controversial Mal characterization

POSTED BY: SpaceAnJL
UPDATED: Saturday, January 3, 2009 06:12
VIEWED: 42818
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SPACEANJL

Thursday, August 23, 2007 1:02 PM

I know Mal is probably short for 'maladjusted' rather than Malcolm, but could we maybe see a way forward for him that doesn't end in misery and angst? (Yeah, I know it's Joss - puppy sandwiches all round.)

I'm not advocating instant bounceback from the trauma of war. I'm not in favour of any fic that sweeps every human reaction under the carpet in favour of fluffy bunnies. But could there possibly be a glimmer of hope for these people? That maybe this little group could put the 'fun' back in dysfunctional, and have something approaching a normal existance, emotionally speaking. And no, I am not advocating spacespawn and wedding bells. This is me.

Maybe I'm just trying to find a balance between drama and humour that feels like real people to me. I just think more could be made of NF's gift for comic timing - I know Joss hoped to take advantage of it. And any guy that will let it all hang out ('Trash') deserves some laughs.

So, a Mal who doesn't end up married to Inara and knee-deep in brats, but equally doesn't end up eating his pistol on some lonely asteroid? Any takers?

CHRISISALL

Thursday, August 23, 2007 1:23 PM

Mal seemed pretty hopeful at the end of Serenity...

Just sayin' Chrisisall

MANWITHPEZ

Thursday, August 23, 2007 1:31 PM

I'd prefer to see an old Mal as the Uncle Jesse of space!

Still findin' ways to run shine and stick it to the man, if only his crazy ass nephews would stop blowin up the outhouse with the old exploding arrowhead gag!

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

http://manwithpez.livejournal.com

JONGSSTRAW

Thursday, August 23, 2007 1:41 PM

At some point after the war Mal made a decision that doing crime is ok and justifyable. I'm not sure when that occured. In Out Of Gas when he's showing the ship to Zoe he talks about being free of the Alliance, taking jobs as they come, living like normal people etc...doesn't really refer to doing crime to pay for that lifestyle.

I'd like to know what Mal did between the end of the war and buying Serenity...that would help explain his acceptance of being a thief.

In Serenity, during the pre-Mule boarding exchange with River he says..." This is what I do darlin', this is what I do." His facial expressions clearly indicate he is terribly conflicted about what he has become, his voice quivers a bit, and his eyes dance around....I really feel for him at that moment, as if he's saying THIS is what the Alliance has forced free-thinking men to do.

WYTCHCROFT

Thursday, August 23, 2007 2:43 PM

a lot of interesting thoughts here... and they illustrate why Mal is such a magnetic character to us fans!

(Jongsstraw - you are on my wave length... im considering trying a gap filling one shot to explore the shift in himself and his career - and why Zoe went along with it.

manwithpez - this too! Mal can be a broad comic foil and FUN gorram it! i decided to write an up coming piece with saffron in to explore this element.)

ok, nuff of that - some thoughts on Mal outside of his personality.
i'm becoming quite interested in Mal as a symbol of the Paternal. River refers to him as a Dad. and the crew of Serenity are very much a family unit.. part of the show's appeal. cool. BUT
this kind of paternalism can have a dark shadow.

(The kind whedon explored in Family - Buffy5 for one thing)

on one hand paternal characters and authorities are very protective - we look to our own, etc.
but this can implode into prejudice about 'others' seen as threatening.

(i see Mal's protection of Nandi and her girls in two lights: a daddy protecting the girls, maybe... or possibly a sort of growth to take on a cause he has no stake in, from Serenity will not truly gain. Given this, the writers make sure that growth comes at a cost - nandi's death and the pain it causes.)

Or just into a genial belief that 'Daddy knows best' which can result in the kind of benevelant empire you see in Star Trek's Federation, (the ambiguities of which were not explored untill Inserruction and Deep Space 9.)

similarly Han Solo

(- whose relationship to the 'Kid' Luke Skywalker and his sister Leia is not far removed from the Mal - Simon/River dynamic -)

became a less intersting character when his own latent paternalism was subsumed within that of th e well intentioned rebel alliance. a rebel alliance whose effects have not been explored on screen - post Jedi. when the Empire falls - what do you get replacing it?

star wars is a fairy tale - and fairy tale sdo not go further than endings - which is one reason why people are wary of simliar situations in real life - the fall of saigon, the ussr, iraq ad nauseum, all much more 'difficult', morally ambivalent and interesting.

(As noted elsewhere on the board what happens post-BDM will have to touch on this)

Is Mal aware of any of this - i am making any sense?? - scattered thoughts as always...

post on!

make someone a browncoat today - don't drive nobody away

PLATONIST

Thursday, August 23, 2007 2:46 PM

Actually, this makes more sense to me before Mal commits to a wife, babies etc...Grown-ups need to come to terms with who they are and what they want before successful relationships are established, not in spite of or because of them.

And IMHO that is where Joss left us at the end of the movie.

Mal has some pretty big issues, though. It will be a painful process. Have you read any Tamsibling?, she does wonders with the crew's inner conflicts and relations.

CHANNAIN

Thursday, August 23, 2007 2:46 PM

I'm working on it, but fan fic doesn't flow fast for me. It didn't before I was in school. These days? It's slower than snail's pace.

I could see him hooking up with Inara, but not getting married, then sticking together when she gets pregnant. Then of course, Inara dies when their daughter is like five or something. Y'know, your typical bittersweet *koff*English*koff* ending.

Of course I'd get skewered - virtually here, and physically once the MNIndys found out - if I killed Inara, so I won't be writing that anytime soon.

Mal is on a journey and journies take time. There's lots on the to-do list - make peace with God, find a way to get past the war, figure out how to get Inara to give up whoring - not necessarily in that order either. So if a happily-ever-after is to be found for Mal, it likely won't be anytime soon.

Doing the impossible makes us mighty
Minnesota Browncoats
http://www.mnfirefly.com/portal/html/index.php

WYTCHCROFT

Thursday, August 23, 2007 2:48 PM

TamSibling?

yeh! she's a gorram miracle worker on that score!

I hope she realises...

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, August 23, 2007 3:47 PM

Good topic SA. And by the way, may I just say that as much as I come off strong with my opinions about fic stuff, I'm so glad that people disagree because these discussions are the funnest way to avoid work LOL! Keep it coming!

So... it's entirely possible that Mal could end up happy as can be, and if he were a real person I'd be all for that as soon as possible. Thing is - he's a fictional character, and any happy ending for him is... an ending. It is for me, because what happens after is just less interesting.

It's like what Frodo and Sam talk about on the stairs of Cirith Ungol: the stories that are the worst for the people in them are often the best to hear. Happy stories get dull. And it's not just me - sexual tension pulls in more viewers/readers than what comes after the couple gives in... anyone remember the show Moonlighting in the 80s? As soon as Cybil Shepard and Bruce Willis got together, the show sucked.

I see Firefly as being about Mal's struggle through his issues. It's not that I want him to go down the toilet, but I want to see all that happens before he gets his happy on. And having a woman (or man, let's include all our slashy friends LOL!) hand him his healing on a plate... well, I've said too much about that already.

SA: of the extremes you present - wedded bliss versus bullet eating, I like neither. But I tend to openly criticize the former much more. I've yet to see a fic where Mal completely fails, but I've seen plenty that gives him that unrealistic instant bounce to happy-joy-joy land.

As for humor/darkness balance - if only we could all do it half so well as Joss!

Quote:
I'd like to know what Mal did between the end of the war and buying Serenity...that would help explain his acceptance of being a thief.

My newest, if I ever get the damned thing done, addresses this...

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

SAFEAT2ND

Thursday, August 23, 2007 4:11 PM

I dunno that Mal made a 'shift' per say to crime, my take on it is that his grand shceme of living free of the Alliance, fell way short. As a result, and in order to keep flying, he had to do what was necessary. And that included the odd petty crime.

BUT if you'll notice, most of their heists go against the Alliance which he sees as bad, so that justifies the crime in his mind. Doesn't make it right mind you...

I see him more as a Robin Hood persona. Isn't that, after all, what the Browncoats/Independants were all about? Standing up against the Alliance for the little guys?

Now I may be WAY off base but...

_______________________________________________________________
"Got a headful of lightning
And a heart full of rain
And I know that I said
I'd never do it again
Oh and I love you sweet baby but I always take the long way home."

WYTCHCROFT

Thursday, August 23, 2007 5:28 PM

well i hear pretty much agree here -
but what is interesting is speculating on the moments of choice

(something we know joss is keen on emphasising)

when did the lines first get blurred etc etc -
who or what influenced him...

lotta plot potential!

THESOMNAMBULIST

Thursday, August 23, 2007 5:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
I know Mal is probably short for 'maladjusted' rather than Malcolm, but could we maybe see a way forward for him that doesn't end in misery and angst? (Yeah, I know it's Joss - puppy sandwiches all round.)

I'm not advocating instant bounceback from the trauma of war. I'm not in favour of any fic that sweeps every human reaction under the carpet in favour of fluffy bunnies. But could there possibly be a glimmer of hope for these people? That maybe this little group could put the 'fun' back in dysfunctional, and have something approaching a normal existance, emotionally speaking. And no, I am not advocating spacespawn and wedding bells. This is me.

Maybe I'm just trying to find a balance between drama and humour that feels like real people to me. I just think more could be made of NF's gift for comic timing - I know Joss hoped to take advantage of it. And any guy that will let it all hang out ('Trash') deserves some laughs.

So, a Mal who doesn't end up married to Inara and knee-deep in brats, but equally doesn't end up eating his pistol on some lonely asteroid? Any takers?

Now that is interesting. I actually regard Mal as very hopefull character. I certainly couldn't imagine him eating a bullet. He thrives off the misery too much. But it'll never get the better of him.
I sort of regard Mal as a similar character to Humphrey Bogart's character Rick Blaine in Casablanca... Always fighting for the losing side, but remains defiant in spite of it.

www.cirqus.com

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, August 23, 2007 5:49 PM

For me Platonist really summed up the point about grown folk having to adjust and be happy for themselves before any Marry-making or child rearing should occur. But there are always reversions to the former self on occasion. It isn't interesting entertainment. It is human nature to go back to the familiar.

And the fact that I cannot see Mal simlpy dropping a bunch of puppies with Inara or chewin' on a bullet out in the black should be pretty appearant. I see the wit and humor of so much in him that IMHO is the hope springing forth from him that we all want to see. The humor is his contribution to the world, no matter how strange or dry or twisted (the whole "Kaylee's dead" thing to Simon broke me in two).

OLDGUY

Thursday, August 23, 2007 6:53 PM

you kids are gettin close to it...and dancing around all the same... a guy like Mal has already met his highest point. He stood his ground and with all he had he looked into the face of the enenmy and lost. He lost so much that he has no desire to exist in the world of "normal society".
He lost, among other things, that little line in the sand that most folks will not step across..mainly because we live in fear of loosing something.. our freedom, our finances, our public image...
Mal said it himself..."he has no rudder" and likewise, no anchor. He will make a decision for the moment of survival and to keep himself powered in the direction..whatever direction it is...that he is going. He won't always like it, but he will do it. However, this doesn't mean he won't take up action for a cause. He is not taking up the cause, but the action required at the moment. He'll fight for the whore house, he'll pick up an unconcious River from a bar floor. Not because he has a goal, or a financial strategy for lasting wealth and power, or some duty to a community or government. in Firefly and Serenity we are able to look at the most basic element of man with his strengths and weaknesses, his cunning and stupidity. We can relate when he comes up short or takes a bad turn, and we cheer when he gets it right..and smile deep inside when he makes that last little turn, after starting out wrong, messing up, falling deep into the pile, and yet at the last moment, right after the last commercial (grin), he pulls it out with the help of those he cares for, or has tried to do right by, or just because some higher power might have decided that tommorrow might be a better place if Mal is allowed to live, and fight, and love again.

Old Guy

NVGHOSTRIDER

Thursday, August 23, 2007 7:17 PM

That is pretty much what I said but I seem to lack the motivation to put alot down today. That and I have been posting waay too much on the whole Mal characterization thing and haven't posted one bit of Mal fic. Seems I might have to now. What's the saying? Put up or shut up? I guess I better man up or quit debating on the fine points of our shiny captain.

WYTCHCROFT

Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oldguy:
you kids are gettin close to it...and dancing around all the same... a guy like Mal has already met his highest point. He stood his ground and with all he had he looked into the face of the enenmy and lost.

Old Guy

yeah... but - are you taking the BDM of Serenity into account? Firefly the show is about the aftermath of defeat... anything post-BDM has to show the aftermath of 'victory'. Both personal and social. this is why i see links with Buffy 8 where joss has to follow the big victory of Chosen...

this is what drew to me try a post BDM fic - else i would not have put my toe in such deep waters!

NBZ

Thursday, August 23, 2007 9:46 PM

Ok, my thoughts. Not really specific to one side or the other.

Firefly is no fairy tale. The equivalent of happily ever after is living to the next day/crisis/whatever. Just like in reality. But with spaceships. And Reavers. Even if you win, you still have to live, and that always has its pitfalls, even if they are small.

If you want a pretty positive fic series, you can try the sushi_fic community over at livejournal. They have a single multi author tale where things after the BDM fall into place in a good manner (You will need to find a page listing them in the right order, as they are written out of order). While not boring, I found it depressing. It was just too hunky dory. (Or the fact that it went too far into the future. I dislike that as well.)

One thing to avoid though is over analysing the situation/character. Mal is not miserable by any standards.

(However this is something that can be explored by a writer. get a situation where he becomes miserable. Finds the ship as a prison, no longer freedom. Should be easy as one thing that he finds incredibly grating is the loss of authority, or people questioning his orders. Which do happen regularly.)

I think we have seen Mal happy on a few occasions. Like at the end of Serenity, the Pilot. He says it's enough, and is pretty relaxed. (At the BDM he is relaxed too, but that is not the same IMO.)

There are a few of these (End of Trash), and it's these small times that probably make it all worth it.

I don't think he needs to confront his issues before being "ready for commitment". he has and hasn't already. There is only so much that can be fixed. I would assume he is pretty well adjusted for what he has gone through.

As a comparison - Zoe. Yes, she got married. But apart from that she has moved on a lot less than Mal has. She still sees herself as a soldier. In an army that was dismantled over seven years ago.

And why does someone need to be in a relationship to be considered happy? While Zoe may be happy to put her arm round Simon in The Message as gesture of camaraderie, Mal more or less freezes both times it happens to him ( Wash in OMR puts his hand on Mals shoulder and the deal guy in Jaynestown grips his arm).

Happyness != relationship.
Mysery != no relationship.

(Also, while the BDM can be taken as a victory, I doubt it is one. The main thing it changes is that the crew are probably no longer anonymous to some segments of the Alliance, making it a lot harder to hide. Though there was nothing in the shown segment of the broadwave connecting the crew to it, so to the ordinary person there is no connection.)

JETFLAIR

Thursday, August 23, 2007 10:34 PM

I don't neccessarily see the portrayal of Mal as happy as unrealistic. I find a *stable* Mal unrealistic, but at least in Firefly, I don't think Mal is unhappy with his life.

He has enough baggage to fill a cargo ship, but he seems content enough. As with any life, his is filled with upsets and hurts and problems, but also joy and his own version of love.

He's chosen a life he can live with. I think that given said baggage, he needs both constant challanges and the task of leading other people to keep him sane, keep his mind off the past and keep him from brooding about himself. Mal, financially secure on a peaceful little homestead somewhere farming tomatoes, would probably go insane.

If as fic writers we want to write Mal as happy (and please do so - I love the man and enjoy reading realistic scenarios where he experiences joy in life), we need to keep in mind that what makes Mal happy may well not be what makes the average person happy. Mal may not enjoy parts of it, but he *likes* his rabble-rousing life.

So finding the things within Mal that bring him joy, and writing a story focused on that, or with that outcome? Not controversial at all, to me. In fact, if well done, it would be a joy to behold.

The problem arises when an author takes a steriotypical, average-person view on what constitutes a happy story or a happy ending for him. That's where we get Mal, Inara, 2.5 kids, and a ranch.

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

NBZ

Thursday, August 23, 2007 10:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jetflair:
He has enough baggage to fill a cargo ship, but he seems content enough. As with any life, his is filled with upsets and hurts and problems, but also joy and his own version of love.

I agree (with all your post).

One thing about firefly is that it does not always accept notions from our 'verse.

Maybe he is happiest when he is screaming across his ship to get hold of Kaylee instead of using the Comms like any sane captain would.

ZONER

Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:49 PM

"i really agree with these last two posts.

i don't understand the need to brush issues or dilemnas under the carpet - on the other hand too much wallowing and you lose the flavour of Firefly

which thrived onquirky juxtapositions and mood swings...
(did i say thrived? i meant cancelled.)

...and risk inventing basically 'new' characters. as a writer i wanna explore all avenues - as a reader? hell, i just want more FireFly!" wytchcroft

WYTCHCROFT

Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:52 PM

curses! i had to get zoner to help me post that! this FRACKING P.C.!

SPACEANJL

Friday, August 24, 2007 8:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jetflair:

He's chosen a life he can live with. I think that given said baggage, he needs both constant challanges and the task of leading other people to keep him sane, keep his mind off the past and keep him from brooding about himself. Mal, financially secure on a peaceful little homestead somewhere farming tomatoes, would probably go insane.

we need to keep in mind that what makes Mal happy may well not be what makes the average person happy. Mal may not enjoy parts of it, but he *likes* his rabble-rousing life.

The problem arises when an author takes a steriotypical, average-person view on what constitutes a happy story or a happy ending for him. That's where we get Mal, Inara, 2.5 kids, and a ranch.
B]

Quite. I have an issue with the whole 'happy ending' concept, because life doesn't end neatly. After the party, the big shoot-out, the final battle...someone has to do the washing-up, patch up the wounded, or sit in an Alliance prison camp awaiting war crime charges. 'Firefly' tried to show that - small people who got rolled over by history picking themselves up and looking for the next job.

I also have an issue with the 'normal' concept of happy ever after. For the record, I am happily married myself, but only recently, and I'm in Mal's age bracket. Maybe because of this, I get rather weirded out by the 'mean old man' scenarios. It is possible to get to your mid-thirties or so with a minimum of possessions, and a quantity of emotional baggage, but without being so bent out of shape that you are not open to any new possibilities. It is also possible that the idea of settling down to a 'normal' job and popping out kids makes you come out in a cold sweat.

Just my personal take on it. I tried living the normal life, being the good little cog in a busy world. Recipe for disaster. Some people are not meant to wear a suit, sit in a workplace and be nice to folk all day. They would rather live with a little financial uncertainty, but find themselves able to look in the mirror...Just had a mental image of Mal in a call-centre, in some Alliance Retraining scheme after the war. I may have to go and write this.

MANWITHPEZ

Friday, August 24, 2007 8:54 AM

You know..it might do to wait for the "Better Days" comic to come out. By all descriptions, it's supposed to be about how the crew reacts to both a job well done, and the rewards that come with it. Granted, Firefly didn't show Mal having much success in anything...Inara, money, crew loyalty, etc. They get a huge take from robbing St. Lucy's, but lose the money soon after to Niska. They steal a priceless artifact (the Lassiter), but can't sell it anywhere. Even in the pilot, they ended up "selling" the goods to Patience at a huge markdown (presumably) from what was going to come from Badger. It would seem that post series, there was success somewhere (I'm guessing the sale of the Lassiter). Elseways, how do you explain the new mule? And "Those Left Behind" shows how jobs have been drying up left and right for Serenity's crew. Things are extraordinarily bad for this group most of the time. It might do to wait and see Joss's interpretation of "success".

I mean, in regards to writing about Mal's future.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

http://manwithpez.livejournal.com

SPACEANJL

Friday, August 24, 2007 9:19 AM

I'm sure there is a mention somewhere that the new mule was bought from the proceeds of the Lassiter sale.

I'm always more amused by the everyday in the ff 'Verse; one of my favourite scenes is that beginning of 'Bushwhacked'. I know it goes against the grain a bit, but the whole McGuffin that is River's central importance to the Alliance actually twitches me a bit. Far more interesting to have people who are not central to every plot and machination at the very highest level negotiating their way through the world.

But...back on topic. Mal. I prefer the Mal of the series to the one of the BDM. A lot of subtlety was lost in the drive to get FF on the big screen. But maybe because I am aware of the darkness and despair in the past, I would just like to see people draw out of that a little, and have those small moments of happiness and/or normality. A life where 'success' is having some fresh food on the table, and happiness is measured by looking into the starfield and choosing where to fly.

WYTCHCROFT

Friday, August 24, 2007 9:42 AM

i love this thread! S.A. you rule!
my response to this thread is a
new fic called (ho ho) MALIFIC. just posted.

let me know what you thnk!

forgot to add:

one think i'm interested in TRYING to do (it's gorram hard!) is take a post-BDM Mal and gradually create a balance in the character half way between the F.F show and the movie. which'll mean i can do a FUN fic next time! - a big relief -

make someone a browncoat today - don't turn nobody away

OLDGUY

Friday, August 24, 2007 1:35 PM

all too typical sequel material.. opening scene finds the Zo girl out kickin some backside someplace..lost in herself...still the soldier, still suffering the loss of her love..but she's on her own...save for a couple unknowns that have taken to running with her..interesting characters..could be important to the plot, or short term distractions. Where's Mal?..trying his best to settle down somewhere distant..war's long done..and he and his whore are attempting to make house...he's now the less willing. The Doc and sis are also back in civilization and the rest of our crew are scattered to the wind.
Into the plot walks some new faces...looks like Mal was not the only freelancer/privateer in the verse..and maybe a character from the Reav side of things..a realization that they are not all totally crazed..that there is some method behind some of the madness, that in fact, the teraform injection isn't what set them to the most extreme...that it was some corrupt local leaders on miranda that spawned a drug lord campaign..to build their version of an army capable of waging the confusion of war against the alliance, allowing them to do business under cover...and to this end, we find that our "assasin" and his belief were not so unfounded..and now Zo must seek him out with the help of her new found "non-Mal-contents". Ultimately the crew. or some of them can be pulled into the story line as much or as little as you want..but the saga can continue in a much more open frame.

DATALESS

Friday, August 24, 2007 4:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
I know Mal is probably short for 'maladjusted' rather than Malcolm

I think that it is just as River said "Mal means bad in the Latin."

Maladjusted actually means badly or unsatisfactorily adjusted, esp. in relationship to one's social circumstances, environment.
Malcontent works too. As in...
1. not satisfied or content with currently prevailing conditions or circumstances.
2. dissatisfied with the existing government, administration, system, etc.
–noun
3. a malcontent person, esp. one who is chronically discontented or dissatisfied.

Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/malcontent

I'm sure their are a few other mal words that work just a s well.

Though malodorous doesn't so much work for Mal but is probably better for Jayne.

JETFLAIR

Friday, August 24, 2007 4:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:

But...back on topic. Mal. I prefer the Mal of the series to the one of the BDM. A lot of subtlety was lost in the drive to get FF on the big screen. But maybe because I am aware of the darkness and despair in the past, I would just like to see people draw out of that a little, and have those small moments of happiness and/or normality.

Me too. I felt that Mal's character arc was driven several steps backwards by the movie, so it could be replaced by a movie character arc. Maybe he did re-take that ground over the course of the movie, but it still felt artificial to me.

Perhaps the Mal in the movie was the darker Mal that Joss wanted all along, but after seeing a whole series of him being one person I grew to love and understand, the movie felt like a betrayal of that character. Like they changed the rules.

Sure, it can be explained. Not even that hard to explain it. But I, personally, do not choose to accept it 100%, and when I examine Mal's character I rarely include his actions in the movie. Some of those actions and moments I accept. Others I don't. Maybe that makes me hypocritical or something, but that's the way it is.

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

SAFEAT2ND

Friday, August 24, 2007 6:17 PM

Thank-you Jetflair!!

That's exactly how I feel too. But when I tried to explain it, it always came out too wordy and too preachy.

Plus I don't subscribe to the whole "That's Joss's way" thinking. Maybe it's because I'm not a Buffy fan.

I think Mal has come to terms with his lot in life. Some else said he has a lot of baggage that he carries around and that is bound to affect anyone. I totally agree. Also that he is happiest when he's running down the corridor hollering at Kaylee is also spot on.

But then there I go maybe reading TOO much into a fictional spawn of someone elses imagination.

P.S. Mal4prez and Wytchcroft, I like your takes on Mal. Keep it up.

_______________________________________________________________
"Got a headful of lightning
And a heart full of rain
And I know that I said
I'd never do it again
Oh and I love you sweet baby but I always take the long way home."

JETFLAIR

Friday, August 24, 2007 6:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by safeat2nd:
But then there I go maybe reading TOO much into a fictional spawn of someone elses imagination.

LOL! If any non-Firefly fan read my posts about Mal, examining his mental makeup as though he were a completely real person....there would probably be enough there to have me committed! I can see myself writing on a blackboard: "Mal is not real. Mal is fictional. Mal was invented by someone else. Mal does not exist. I do not love Mal. Mal is a movie character."

Talk about characters coming alive on screen......

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:

Quite. I have an issue with the whole 'happy ending' concept, because life doesn't end neatly. After the party, the big shoot-out, the final battle...someone has to do the washing-up, patch up the wounded, or sit in an Alliance prison camp awaiting war crime charges. 'Firefly' tried to show that - small people who got rolled over by history picking themselves up and looking for the next job.

I also have an issue with the 'normal' concept of happy ever after. For the record, I am happily married myself, but only recently, and I'm in Mal's age bracket. Maybe because of this, I get rather weirded out by the 'mean old man' scenarios. It is possible to get to your mid-thirties or so with a minimum of possessions, and a quantity of emotional baggage, but without being so bent out of shape that you are not open to any new possibilities. It is also possible that the idea of settling down to a 'normal' job and popping out kids makes you come out in a cold sweat.

Just my personal take on it. I tried living the normal life, being the good little cog in a busy world. Recipe for disaster. Some people are not meant to wear a suit, sit in a workplace and be nice to folk all day. They would rather live with a little financial uncertainty, but find themselves able to look in the mirror...Just had a mental image of Mal in a call-centre, in some Alliance Retraining scheme after the war. I may have to go and write this.

GREAT post! And you're spot on with the call-center. I have something very similar planned for both Wash and Mal when they get out of prison. It's on a grander scale for Wash, he gets to pilot an upscale luxury cruiser, but finds that he chafes against being used as an employee and having almost as little freedom to be himself as he did in the prison.

For Mal, I have it not a forced "retraining" scheme, but a job the Alliance sets him up with as a sort of benevolent "giving him a new start" sort of thing. Menial office work, probably customer service. Surrounded by happy people who dream of nothing more, and want Mal to join them at the company picnic and help design employee incentive programs.

You might get some idea of how that will end by listening to the Firefly theme....."Tell 'em I ain't coming back......."

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

MAL4PREZ

Friday, August 24, 2007 7:19 PM

(Thank you safeat2nd!!)

I'm with you jetflair, about the movie. Hey, I like it, but so many things were different - had to be different - that I prefer to stick with the series as canon. Of course, I think there's plenty of dark Mal in the series, enough for me to build off in my own way...

As for the new mule - wasn't that stolen in the comic book? They certainly did drive around in a yellow hovercraft, and that can't be a coincidence.

Oh - I also have some forced retraining sort of thing happening for Mal after the war, though in a very different way than we're talking here. But I looove the idea of Mal being forced to telemarket. oh my gawd, the fun that could be had with that...

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

JETFLAIR

Friday, August 24, 2007 8:10 PM

Quote:

I'm
Oh - I also have some forced retraining sort of thing happening for Mal after the war, though in a very different way than we're talking here. But I looove the idea of Mal being forced to telemarket. oh my gawd, the fun that could be had with that...

I can't wait to read your take, as I'm sure there will be angst involved ;)

Mal being forced to telemarket.....oh, it is fun indeed. So hilarious that I've already written parts, when I just want a good laugh. I haven't decided on his actual job yet....but it will be something like that. I'm thinking customer service - because I can actully see Mal being able to sell staplers, but can you even imagine him in customer service? :snickers just thinking about it:

My particular favorites right now are when Mal gets invited to the company picnic to benefit Alliance war orphans, and a scene where Mal's manager decides to write him up for his "bad attitude."

Just thinking about his reactions makes me want to start laughing out loud. Mal's take on employee recognition programs plans to be entertaining too ;)

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

MAL4PREZ

Friday, August 24, 2007 8:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jetflair:
My particular favorites right now are when Mal gets invited to the company picnic to benefit Alliance war orphans, and a scene where Mal's manager decides to write him up for his "bad attitude."

OK - you're making me think of Dead Like Me - a surly grim reaper trapped in cubicle hell LOL! Happy Time!

Mal in this situation will be priceless. I can't wait to see it, jetflair!

MANWITHPEZ

Friday, August 24, 2007 8:34 PM

I was under the impression that the hovercraft was the new mule. It would seem to me to be the kind of thing that they could never have afforded during the series, and Malcolm is starting to worry about keeping the crew fed, let alone Serenity in the air in the movie. Those Left Behind gives no mention of it.

I don't think.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

http://manwithpez.livejournal.com

KATESFRIEND

Saturday, August 25, 2007 2:23 AM

I agree with Jetflair's view of Mal in the movie, and for this reason I'm a little nervous of Joss's enchantment with the darkness of Battlestar Galactica. I love the Character of Mal in Firefly, and want to see more of THAT character if any. The world already can be a pretty dark place, we don't need to deliberately make it darker. What we could use is an example of how someone who's been through hell pulls his humanity back together again when he's had every reason to lose faith in life and love. That's the show I want to see. That's the show the world could use right now, not one that just shows how screwed up people are capable of becoming. We already know that.

Even the most successful and decorated heroes from WWI and WWII complained of nightly nightmares for the rest of their lives. I grew up with combat veterans of WWII and knew instinctively there were missing pieces to them. Then in the 1980's and 1990's I watched as homeless people appeared from thin air and then learned that 70% of all the homeless people then were Viet Nam vets. Now with the current conflict in the Mideast we will have another generation of people with damaged minds and spirits. Firefly, as with any good scifi, lets us look at the same old problems from new angles. And Mal and Firefly would have been a brilliant example of survival in the face of overwhelming odds. The necessary anti-hero for the times.

Could Mal ever be happy? I hope that's one of the reason Joss cast Nathan for the role. Can you imagine a more consistently optimistic, upbeat person? I certainly hope Joss was planning a recovery for Mal - slowly and painfully but realistically - before he killed him off. Could the Mal that was evident in the first few minutes of the pilot ever return? In some form, that's what I'm waiting for. Remember him hugging Kaylee so joyfully in Ariel? He's still in there - somewhere.

PLATONIST

Saturday, August 25, 2007 6:24 AM

Whew! Great posts guys!

Just a quick comment. The Mal in the movie may not be the one we came to know and love in the series, but it is a much more realistic portrayal of an antihero that is living on the edge with not a whole lot to live for.

I think Joss explains it best by saying that Mal is pulling him self apart. Shit happens; Inara leaves (romantic dream shattered), Book moves on (loss of a friend/confident), life with the Tams (need I say more), loyal crew questioning (Zoe and Kaylee). Life has taken a turn, Mal reacts and goes into survival mode.

The Mal of the film is not the weekly serial wise-cracking hero of TV, where issues like life and death are resolved between commercial breaks. This is a much grittier and realistic look at how this character would react under these kinds of circumstances, living this kind of existence.

Living on Serenity, not so fun anymore because life settles in and stays for a long visit.

So...same character, we just see more of his darker side.

WYTCHCROFT

Saturday, August 25, 2007 7:11 AM

yeah i agree on this -

except just to note in general
that a lot of fans seems to play down the darker elements of Mal's character as seen in FireFly
even as others downplay the humour in Serenity (BDM).

i don't see a WHOLE acre of difference -
just a subtle shift - something closer to what Joss probably intended pre-Fox meddling..

but it plays for me as harmoniously as a second season vision
(what does everyone make of the comic and its version of Mal?)

just like the shifts in characters in BTVS or Angel - never exactly the same from season to season... and i'll stop there before i just repeat what you've already said.

SPACEANJL

Saturday, August 25, 2007 9:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by jetflair:
My particular favorites right now are when Mal gets invited to the company picnic to benefit Alliance war orphans, and a scene where Mal's manager decides to write him up for his "bad attitude."
OK - you're making me think of Dead Like Me - a surly grim reaper trapped in cubicle hell LOL! Happy Time!

Mal in this situation will be priceless. I can't wait to see it, jetflair!

*snickers* Guess I'm not the only one with a very sick mind, then. I'm now thinking of Kevin Spacey in 'American Beauty'...can I join in, too? I have a whole raft of madness dammed up.

Alt. scene - can you imagine Mal (or Zoe!) forced to flip burgers at Mooby's? (I just have this vision that that was the fry-cook opportunity Wash got fired from - he'd fit in so well with Randall and Dante...)

PACHELBEL

Saturday, August 25, 2007 11:53 AM

Isn't the next comic set called "Serenity: Better Days " ?

NCBROWNCOAT

Saturday, August 25, 2007 9:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jetflair:
Quote:

I'm
Oh - I also have some forced retraining sort of thing happening for Mal after the war, though in a very different way than we're talking here. But I looove the idea of Mal being forced to telemarket. oh my gawd, the fun that could be had with that...

I can't wait to read your take, as I'm sure there will be angst involved ;)

Mal being forced to telemarket.....oh, it is fun indeed. So hilarious that I've already written parts, when I just want a good laugh. I haven't decided on his actual job yet....but it will be something like that. I'm thinking customer service - because I can actully see Mal being able to sell staplers, but can you even imagine him in customer service? :snickers just thinking about it:

My particular favorites right now are when Mal gets invited to the company picnic to benefit Alliance war orphans, and a scene where Mal's manager decides to write him up for his "bad attitude." Just thinking about his reactions makes me want to start laughing out loud. Mal's take on employee recognition programs plans to be entertaining too ;)

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

Jetflair,

Snicker, then laughs out loud. I'm thinking Mal would be more than a bit like the character of Peter Gibbons in OFFICE SPACE, just fed up with the whole thing and plotting revenge on Bill Laumbaugh(the boss) by hijacking the year 2560 computer virus to line his own account. I can't wait to read this.

Oh, and being forced to wear 37 pieces of flair.

I was incredibly bored at work Friday and quickly wrote a few paragraphs of "Mal Happily After". Nice soft bed, waking to sunshine every morning to a very willing and sweet Inara, 2.5 kids, prosperous ranch. The worst thing in his life is the 4 year old running screaming into the bedroom just when he wants to have morning sex with Inara.

It was just so sickingly fluffy and sweet that it put me into a sugar high. I don't think it'll see the light of a computer screen again.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

JETFLAIR

Sunday, August 26, 2007 2:22 AM

NC, you're right on with Office Space....can you imagine some plump, cheerful little person asking Mal if he's having problems with his TPS reports? And like Peter, Mal doesn't give a darn....but throw in a wicked sense of humor, a major case of PTSD, and the outsider's ability to see how blindingly stupid the corporate world is.......oh, yes. Fun.

"What's this?" asked Mal.

Betty grinned, giving a cheerful bounce. "RSVP for the company picnic, silly. There's going to be a barbecue, and balloons, and a dunk tank. It's all going to raise money for Allied war orphans."

"Sounds like – all my worst nightmares come to life," said Mal.

She giggled. "Oh, you're so silly." She grabbed his head and smooched him on the cheek. "Always joking around. I'll put you down for two tickets, I just know Ashley's dying for you to ask her to come with you."

Mal shuddered and scrubbed his cheek. "Forget it. I ain't comin.'"

"Such a tease," she said with a smile, moving to slap him playfully on the arm.

Mal blocked the blow with a sharp move and stood, his face grim. "I ain't teasing. And I ain't fond of being slapped around, play or no. Take it elsewhere."

Tears started streaming almost instantly down her face, and she cast an accusing look at Mal before turning and hurrying away with a sob. Mal stood, blinking.

"I'm almost afraid to ask, but – what did you do this time?" asked Peter, poking his head up from the adjoining cube.

"I told her not to hit me!"

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

SPACEANJL

Sunday, August 26, 2007 12:51 PM

This better lead to a Big Damn Fic.

I still can't get the image of Zoe out of my head. A little explanation for why she doesn't like to cook...The one employee nobody ever asks to wear the perky mascot suit.

Is 'Office Space' the US version of 'The Office'? Because if I attempt to put David Brent and Mal in the same headspace, something will break.

SpaceAnJL. The one employee who COULD fit in the bloody suit.

NCBROWNCOAT

Sunday, August 26, 2007 1:49 PM

Office Space is a little movie from 1999 written and directed by Mike Judge. It's about a worker that just doesn't give a gorram about work. To make matters worse he finds out that his girl friend is sleeping around and 2 of his friends are fired.

He and the 2 friends decided to get back by using a planned software upgrade for the year 2000 to transfer money to their own account.

The ironic thing is that the 2 HR people that are deciding who to fire decide that the main character is the perfect worker.

It's hilarious and well worth watching.

We do have our own version of The Office and Nathan has expressed more than a desire to appear on it. And he has an in.

Joss has directed an episode and Nathan's good friends with James Gunn (he also directed Nathan in Slither and is very warped), whose wife, Jeanna Fisher, plays Pam the receptionist on The Office.

I love the whole cast of The Office and can't wait for the new season to start.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

NBZ

Monday, August 27, 2007 6:21 PM

ok, a question about Mal's speech pattern. Is it poetic?

I know it is a made up style, but to me it occasionally sound poetic. Especially in the longer monologues.

But is it only me that sees (hears) something that potentially is not there?

SPACEANJL

Monday, August 27, 2007 6:37 PM

The poetry comes from the rhythms of the speech. Joss used a number of extant sources, including Shakespeare, and real Western documents, plus of course, excellent writers. And some really good chinese cussing.

Think of...a wide open plain. A big sky. Nothin' but freedom far as you can see. Room for a man to breathe and think and mebbe just sit on his porch and wonder at the way of it all. I conjure that's the root of it.

'Course, you got to kinda take your own brain off the hook, and just let the words come. And it's a deal more than just leavin' the ends off words and abusing the apostrophe.

It's not only Mal who has a particular rhythm. If you read a page of dialogue, you should be able to tell who is speaking without names. Particularly if it's crazy talk. (BTW, song lyrics and lines of poetry are good. So is stealing from Hunter S Thompson.) Appalling grammar and worse language usually indicate something big and mean (though not without a certain insight and some smartass remarks.) Clear diction and sarcasm indicate a top three percent, unless talking to a woman, when articulation takes a swan dive.

MAL4PREZ

Monday, August 27, 2007 6:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
ok, a question about Mal's speech pattern. Is it poetic?

I know it is a made up style, but to me it occasionally sound poetic. Especially in the longer monologues.

I definitely think it's poetic, to varying degrees for the different characters. Book is the most poetic, I think - the preacher thing. The monologue he does in the BDM (was that a cut scene? I forget...) is pretty much poetry.

But any dialogue between Mal and Zoe I absolutely love because they get this rhythm going. On the train in the Train Job is one of favorite exchanges... and the shootout in the pilot ("You were right about his bein' a bad idea/Thanks for sayin', sir" Pure love LOL!!)

Some comment was made by one of the show writers about the language... that it's based on a period of time that's so interesting because the slang is rough and sloppy, but, oddly, people had much more extensive vocabularies than we do. ie Zoe and her "sanguine" comment. Kaylee and "addlepated."

Yeah... definitely poetic!

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

NBZ

Monday, August 27, 2007 11:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
The monologue he does in the BDM (was that a cut scene? I forget...) is pretty much poetry.

I am pretty sure that is the Bible.

(there is a longer version in 2x17 of Virtual Firefly over at stillflying.net if you want a gander)

By Dialogue in TTJ, do you mean "It don;t concern us" "It concerns me..." exchange or the "Whatever happens, remember I love you" "Sir?" "Because you're my wife" "Right. Sir. Honey"

I can't decide which exchange is better. Actually scratch that, I prefer the second. less words.

MOBBEX

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 3:47 AM

My cartridge fell out of my gun...

It has a strong rhythmic quality to it, yes. And he use images aplenty. Definitely poetic in my view.

THEHEROOFWILLIAMTOWN

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 4:23 AM

I don't to sound too up myself here but i'm trying to write a Fanfic novel (Like the umpteen dozens of star wars type ones floating around). It's set pretty well right after Objects in Space. I see Mal as being a realist, ideals are good for those that have the coin to back them up. He has no problem shooting people. I hope i get it right.

As for the whole character of Mal being the happy go lucky laugh a minute OR Eating a gun barrel i don't know. I'd say he's niether he wont eat a bullet but he wont pretend life is grand either.

Also the comic had it pretty good as far as the character i saw him as.

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 3:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
The monologue he does in the BDM (was that a cut scene? I forget...) is pretty much poetry.
I am pretty sure that is the Bible.

Really? OK, obviously I'm Bible ignorant, but I somehow had the idea that was Bible-like without being actual Bible. I think I just make these things up out of thin air.

Um.. but it's still poetic though. Right?

Quote:
By Dialogue in TTJ, do you mean "It don;t concern us" "It concerns me..." exchange or the "Whatever happens, remember I love you" "Sir?" "Because you're my wife" "Right. Sir. Honey"

The first. Definitely. But it's this part:

MAL - Hell, this job I would pull for free.

ZOE - Then can I have your share?

MAL - No.

ZOE - If you die can I have your share?

MAL - Yes.

lovelovelovelovelove! I want to know how much work it took Gina and Nathan to get the timing down, or if it just happened. It's flawless! Exchanges like this are why I can watch the damn series 100 times and not get tired of it.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

NBZ

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:07 PM

There are plenty of nuggets in there. :)

(Found out it was an actual bible prayer elsewhere. Can't remember where. Yes it is still poetic. Along with the rest of the convo.. "sidle up and smile. hit you where you're weak." and "The type of man they are like to send believes hard, doesn't think to ask why." all have rythm)

SAFEAT2ND

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 11:53 PM

I've been trying to figure out the word for poetic style of speaking, and it's been bugging me for days. Right on the tip of my tongue....

Cadence. Mal's style of speech has cadence. Not necessarily full on iambic pentameter, but there is a flow to it. A flavour perhaps. Fun to listen to none the less.

_______________________________________________________________
"Got a headful of lightning
And a heart full of rain
And I know that I said
I'd never do it again
Oh and I love you sweet baby but I always take the long way home."

NBZ

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 12:43 AM

ok, another question. Kaylee.

Would Mal ever (try to) kick her off the ship?

Post BDM will he try to push everyone away or keep them close?

@SAFEAT2ND: true.

EMPIREX

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 3:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by manwithpez:
I'd prefer to see an old Mal as the Uncle Jesse of space!

OMG! I can't even tell you how hard that made me laugh! Thanks!

I needed that.

Patsy: When you were two years old, we tied you to the central reservation of a motorway.

Edina: But you were like a homing pidgeon, sweetie....back within a week!

CAUSAL

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 3:50 AM

I saw an interview on the BBC with Britain's last surviving War War I vet. He told a story about some of the horrendous things he saw during the war. His last line said it all: "I'll never leave there. I'll always be there." (Or some such close to that.)

Mal might be able to become somewhat functional. But he'll be in Serenity Valley for the rest of his days.

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police
- Vote JonnyQuest/Causal, for Benevolent Co-Dictator of Earth; together, toward a brighter tomorrow!

THEHEROOFWILLIAMTOWN

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 12:32 PM

You don't really 'get over it' you just 'get on with it'. A little something i've always noticed is it's mainly others that bring up the war not Mal. He hasn't forgotten it but he's getting on with things everyone else just seems to remind him of it.

CAUSAL

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 1:23 PM

THEHEROOFWILLIAMTOWN

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 1:37 PM

Yeah when i say 'get on with it'. That means exactly what you mean. I don't understand what war does as i've never served. What i said was that Mal still is affected by the war but he's just trying to carry one with life or 'get on with it'.

I didn't really put it clearly in my other post.

CAUSAL

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 1:40 PM

Damn. I reread your original post and realized that I was reacting to something that you weren't saying (hence the null post). Plus I've been trying to cut back on the snark. Sorry!

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police
- Vote JonnyQuest/Causal, for Benevolent Co-Dictator of Earth; together, toward a brighter tomorrow!

THEHEROOFWILLIAMTOWN

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 1:42 PM

Nah mate it's alright i have to admit i was a little confused but that's how i spend alot of my time these days.

All in All 'no harm no foul'.

CAUSAL

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 1:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHeroOfWilliamtown:
i have to admit i was a little confused but that's how i spend alot of my time these days.

Me, too, obviously!

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police
- Vote JonnyQuest/Causal, for Benevolent Co-Dictator of Earth; together, toward a brighter tomorrow!

JONGSSTRAW

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 2:01 PM

The catalyst for Mal's change in the BDM I believe stems from when he shot the guy who was trying to get on the mule, then taken by the Reavers. Mal came up with all the reasons he could use to defend his actions when Zoe brought it up later, and his final answer about leaving wounded behind as a reason why they lost the war was his lowest point.

When Jayne asks him why he rescued River and brought her back, Mal glances over at Zoe...it is that moment that tells me Mal has changed...his humanity has kicked back in...he could not abandon another person.

PLATONIST

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 2:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
The catalyst for Mal's change in the BDM I believe stems from when he shot the guy who was trying to get on the mule, then taken by the Reavers. Mal came up with all the reasons he could use to defend his actions when Zoe brought it up later, and his final answer about leaving wounded behind as a reason why they lost the war was his lowest point.

When Jayne asks him why he rescued River and brought her back, Mal glances over at Zoe...it is that moment that tells me Mal has changed...his humanity has kicked back in...he could not abandon another person.

Good observation, I missed that...ummm more to think on... Thanks

SPACEANJL

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 7:21 PM

Another point to add: Mal's leadership qualities during the war. This man always inspired people to follow him. He still takes care of those under his 'command'.

He's flailing and a little lost, until he finds something new to believe in. You watch one small damaged little girl carve her way through a bar of folks like the Angel of Death come down, and then fall like a broken angel. You think that he could leave her lying there?

Of course, I don't think Mal has a very clear idea of the why himself. But...both he and River had a clear shot in the bar, before Simon horned in. Neither of them took it. You might want to wonder on that a while.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 7:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
Of course, I don't think Mal has a very clear idea of the why himself.

Joss said in the commentary that someone (his wife?) brought this issue up late in the movie-making process: he never explicitely addressed Mal's decision to bring River back to the ship. So Joss says - of course Mal brought her back! Wasn't any need for him to waffle about it, he probably didn't even question himself until he was out of atmo. It was just the thing to do. (I'm totally paraphrasing, I can't remember what Joss actually said, but you get the point.)

Kind of goes with him (Mal) being a man of action before anything else...

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

SPACEANJL

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 7:41 PM

The 'why are we still talking about this?' approach.

I think Mal reacts to things very quickly, which includes yelling at folk who punch him in the mouth. (Simon) And then he doesn't ever back down. Doesn't know how. Like a lot of the Inara situations. A lot of smart mouth, and then no way back. In a command situation, he can't be seen to back down, and I think he gets command and real life a mite twisted together. So he throws the Tams off (which he almost instantly regrets, probably, but doesn't know how to retrieve.) And he's horribly defensive about it to Kaylee.

But Mal wouldn't be Mal if he'd left her there. After all, that was the sensible option, and does he ever take the sensible option...

NBZ

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 9:26 PM

I am jumping back a little to an issue which I think is important (to me) and then catch up with everyone.

"When you've been in Serenity you never leave" and "The war is all I lost". What do they have in common?

It is not that they are about Mal, but that they are said by Zoe. I think she truly believes that and the other quotes, but they are more about her than Mal.

Why does Zoe have to always always know and understand everything about Mal? IMO she is trying to understand Mal through her own demons. That does not mean she is accurate in any way at all. (Yes - Joss was trying to get a message across through Zoe, but that don't mean what Zoe thinks is fact.)

That is the worst thing that had happened to her, and her coping mechanism is "Mal went through worse. He survived. I hold on and I will too."

If you watch the scene in OoG, Mal does not pick the name for Serenity out of spite or bitterness. You hear hope in his voice. (I am of course assuming that "Serenity" IS the name he had picked out, not some other name he got talked out of or something. That does not show to me that Mal is as bitter about the war as we all assume. Then there is his banter in The Train Job. "Superior numbers. That is why we lost." Once again, not showing much bitterness.

I have this theory that Serenity valley was the worst thing that happened to Zoe. It still gives her bad nights. (maybe after the demise of Wash this will change) But for Mal, his worst came much later. Maybe something Zoe is not aware about.

I had this theory of him being tried for treason by the independents, War crimes by the Alliance, but the former of that got scuppered by the fact that Mal got a commendation over Serenity Valley. Maybe something else then. Still ways around that, but there is a lot to explore here.

The significant glance in Serenity IMO is also about asking "You too?" Is Zoe also demanding an explanation? If she is, he would have to provide something. Since she does not, he just ignores the issue, moves on to the next point of if she goes woolly again.

About his actual decision to allow Simon to leave (not kick them off, as it was Simon who suggested it), I don't think Mal would have immediately regretted it if the stuff that happened did not happen. It is just like the Tracy situation. "I'll go to Hell before I watch you turn and bite us for the favor". Maybe later on he would have, but he probably would not admit that to even himself.

With the Kaylee bit he is once again fed up of being challenged on everything he does. Mentally he has already moved on from the Tam's.

While Mal is loath to change his mind, he can and will if needed. Once he has had a breather and room to think. Look at the Pilot. Simon is a dead man even when Mal knows the score, all the way up to when Mal has a quiet moment where he can look to change his mind. Indecisiveness costs lives. He will not do that in a moment of action. (In the case of the Tam's, the journey to beaumonde took 10 hours, so he had a chance to reconsider. But would there be any point since Simon wanted to leave? can't hold the man against his will - no matter how stupid he is being.)

EDIT - I actually put the point I was making in (choosing the name for Serenity bit). Forgot about it the first time.

PLATONIST

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 10:27 PM

Of course, I don't think Mal has a very clear idea of the why himself. But...both he and River had a clear shot in the bar, before Simon horned in. Neither of them took it. You might want to wonder on that a while.

Oh, I think we've all wondered about that...

My interpretation is that Mal already knows River to be more than just a fighting demon, he's already established a relationship with her beyond this new behavior. (Do you know that girl?) Like Tracey, he gives her time to stand down.

and I think River is smart enough to know that Mal is Simon's and River's ticket to safety and freedom. He holds the Captain reins and makes the calls on where their going, (he has to see) Miranda. She is like Joss says "watching him carefully".

NBZ

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 10:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SPACEANJL:
Of course, I don't think Mal has a very clear idea of the why himself. But...both he and River had a clear shot in the bar, before Simon horned in. Neither of them took it. You might want to wonder on that a while.

The main question is that was that a stand off, or artistic licence?

In the script is as soon as they point the guns she will be made to fall asleep. But saying the words does take time.

I am not too sure where I stand on this.

The problem with Mal is that sometimes he does the right think without thinking about it. like on autopilot. That gets him into trouble sometimes.

NBZ

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 10:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
Of course, I don't think Mal has a very clear idea of the why himself.
Joss said in the commentary that someone (his wife?) brought this issue up late in the movie-making process: he never explicitely addressed Mal's decision to bring River back to the ship. So Joss says - of course Mal brought her back! Wasn't any need for him to waffle about it, he probably didn't even question himself until he was out of atmo. It was just the thing to do. (I'm totally paraphrasing, I can't remember what Joss actually said, but you get the point.)

Yeah heard that in the original commentary. (No CE in the uk = me waiting longer to listen to the new nuggets that are teasing me on this very site.)

I don't think many people thought he would do any different to be honest. WHen I heard the commentary, I thought "huh, that IS a good question". But because of who we see Mal as, I doubt anyone really questioned why he did that. And so, he didn't, and joss did not have to get himself out of a situation. :P

NBZ

Thursday, August 30, 2007 12:01 AM

[DELETED - added to earlier post (3 up from here).]

PLATONIST

Thursday, August 30, 2007 2:34 AM

I don't want to give any spoilers away, but I think you'll like the new CE commentary, NBZ.

Ron and Nathan try to pry some info out of Joss(for our benefit, I'm sure) and Joss is like NO, NO, WRONG, WRONG and NO and WRONG again!

He definitely has things planned out, like you said, and he's not giving it to us until he's ready. He does slip at times, but he catches himself quickly. I had to hit the back button a few times.

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, August 30, 2007 3:25 PM

Woo! Nbz - doing some posting last night LOL! Which means it'll be a good hour before I get on with work today, because I've just got to reply to this and the other thread...

You make a very good point that the things Zoe says are Mal through her filter, and not necessarily Mal. That's not something I think of a lot.

I agree that Mal's cheer about his ship's name was odd. But I gotta disagree that Serenity Valley was worse for Zoe than Mal - I mean, look at Mal's face in the pilot! I do think his heartbreak continued during the next few years, but it all started when he saw his army (and his God?) desert him.

I don't see Zoe as so emotionally involved in the war as Mal. She was career military, doing her job. Mal was a volunteer, protecting his home and his way of life. I'm sure losing sucked for her, but I don't think it crushed her spirit the way it did Mal.

So why is Mal so cheerful? Well, the man can make humor out of anything. He doesn't wear his bitterness on the outside, which is how he's managed to survive and not turned into some lonely drunk.

About the ship's name, I've got my own theory...

I think it would be perfectly like Joss to have another flashback episode a season later where we learn that Serenity's name initially was Happy Sunshine or something cheery and stupid. But then there was some dark angsty string of events and afterward Mal changed the name to Serenity.

Huh. Yeah. I wish I'd written that out LOL! It would at least fit my take on things - Mal sees this ship as a new life after a few very hard years, but then has some reminder of how much the war changed him, and how he won't be just leaving it behind. So he changes the name of the ship.

Dang. I wish I had written that! I even know what the events would be... a later standalone, maybe!

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SCHOONER

Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:06 PM

I sort of figured Mal's deision to name the ship Serenity was in a similar vein to Robert DeNiro's qoute in Raging Bull, "You never knocked me down." Naming his ship after Serenity Valley is a big poke to the Alliance that they may have won the battle and the war, but Malcolm Reynolds is still standing. He and his people did do the impossible, held the Valley to the point where the Alliance practically had to nuke it to dig them out. In Mal's mind, that't a point that the Alliance needs to be reminded of.

Similar in a smaller scale to Thermopylae. What people remember is how well and bravely the outnumbered Greeks fought, not the fact that they lost.

SAFEAT2ND

Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by schooner:
I sort of figured Mal's deision to name the ship Serenity was in a similar vein to Robert DeNiro's qoute in Raging Bull, "You never knocked me down." Naming his ship after Serenity Valley is a big poke to the Alliance that they may have won the battle and the war, but Malcolm Reynolds is still standing. He and his people did do the impossible, held the Valley to the point where the Alliance practically had to nuke it to dig them out. In Mal's mind, that't a point that the Alliance needs to be reminded of.

Similar in a smaller scale to Thermopylae. What people remember is how well and bravely the outnumbered Greeks fought, not the fact that they lost.

That rings true to me. I can't see him re-naming it. Jayne... ya, but not Mal. I think Wash woulda named it Ivan.

Whoa... lotsa good points here. Mal taking the war personnaly while Zoe, like a soldier makes all kinds of sense.

To me, the war is like an old injury to Mal. It hurts and eats at you, but if you live with it long enough, while you don't forget about it, you cope and every once in a while you do something that triggers the pain.

Mal had humour before the war, it only makes sense that he still has the humour, beaten battered and bruised, but it's still there.

While I've never been enlisted, I do know a thing or two about injuries.

_______________________________________________________________
"Got a headful of lightning
And a heart full of rain
And I know that I said
I'd never do it again
Oh and I love you sweet baby but I always take the long way home."

NBZ

Thursday, August 30, 2007 8:12 PM

Yeah, can see plenty of people disagree slightly with me. Keeps things interesting. I at times deliberately look for a different understanding. As long as it rings true with the facts, I will consider it. And if something is a default by any means, it must be questioned before acceptance. That is my motto. Or it would be if I stuck to one.

(A bit of repetition, but) In the OoG flashback Mal seems to have a name picked out for the ship, with a wistfulness when he mentions it to Zoe. There is no bitterness in that tone. So if it was Serenity, it is not IMO for the reason of "You never knocked me down". It just does not fit with my understanding.

Or as Mal4Prez said, he could have (been forced to) change it later.

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, August 30, 2007 8:29 PM

I can just see Joss using the misdirection. "I got a name all picked out..." and we all think we know what it is. Then a later episode has a shot of Mal smiling proudly as he paints some really stupid name on the ship and Zoe stands to the side shaking her head...

Or maybe that's just the only way I can make sense of Mal's light-heartedness in OoG.

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NBZ

Thursday, August 30, 2007 8:39 PM

Well, they did also have a genius mechanic shortly afterwards...

JETFLAIR

Thursday, August 30, 2007 10:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:

It is not that they are about Mal, but that they are said by Zoe. I think she truly believes that and the other quotes, but they are more about her than Mal.

Why does Zoe have to always always know and understand everything about Mal? IMO she is trying to understand Mal through her own demons. That does not mean she is accurate in any way at all. (Yes - Joss was trying to get a message across through Zoe, but that don't mean what Zoe thinks is fact.)

That is the worst thing that had happened to her, and her coping mechanism is "Mal went through worse. He survived. I hold on and I will too."

If you watch the scene in OoG, Mal does not pick the name for Serenity out of spite or bitterness. You hear hope in his voice. (I am of course assuming that "Serenity" IS the name he had picked out, not some other name he got talked out of or something. That does not show to me that Mal is as bitter about the war as we all assume. Then there is his banter in The Train Job. "Superior numbers. That is why we lost." Once again, not showing much bitterness.

I agree with you to an extent about Zoe, and it goes back to nine people seeing nine different things. There is a deleted scene with Zoe talking to Simon, telling him how Mal lost his humanity and mercy in Serenity Valley. It really nagged at me for a while, because everything in me screamed "No, that's not true!"

Serenity Valley hurt Mal deeply, I believe that. But not the way she put it. Seems to me she tries, just like everyone on the ship, to understand certain things about Mal. Sometimes they understand him right, sometimes they understand him wrong. But I have to (probably) disagree about it affecting him less......tell me this isn't a pretty devastated Mal:

The not-bitterness....I see that as partly Mal's having moved on, having healed to an admirable extent. The other part....this is the Mal who asks Niska if he's starting a book club. This is the Mal who dodges enemy fire grinning and whooping and cracking jokes about "they don't like it when you shoot 'em." Mal has a playful attitude towards life, and while it sometimes falters, he never loses it completely.

How many people react this way to being stripped naked and being dumped in the desert for their crew to find? Heck, how many of us would think to write this as his reaction? How many comments do you think we'd get calling it unrealistic or out of character?

http://www.serenityverse.com/images/albums/userpics/10001/normal_PDVD_
054.JPG

We tend to write Mal's broodier sides or his sweeter sides in fics, I've noticed. His playful side is harder to capture, possibly because it's hard to reconcile with this supposedly hardened man. Truly hard times tend to knock the playful out of most folk. That's one of the reasons I go against the grain of calling Mal "broken." I just can't watch the light, playful part of him and call him a broken man. He is too much of a survivor; he may be traumatized to the core, but nobody has ever been able to break that playful self.

Mal is a broody sort, but also more lighthearted than Zoe. In my mind, Zoe desperately needs both Mal and Wash's humorous attitudes towards life to keep her own demons at bay.

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

JETFLAIR

Thursday, August 30, 2007 10:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I can just see Joss using the misdirection. "I got a name all picked out..." and we all think we know what it is. Then a later episode has a shot of Mal smiling proudly as he paints some really stupid name on the ship and Zoe stands to the side shaking her head...

Or maybe that's just the only way I can make sense of Mal's light-heartedness in OoG.

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I'm pretty sure you are exactly right. In the script published in the Firefly Visual Companion, Zoe starts laughing off screen. That didn't make it into the episode, but it shows the intent.

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

JETFLAIR

Thursday, August 30, 2007 10:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by schooner:
He and his people did do the impossible, held the Valley to the point where the Alliance practically had to nuke it to dig them out. In Mal's mind, that't a point that the Alliance needs to be reminded of.

Bingo. You just expressed it perfectly. There are many reasons Mal might have named his ship Serenity, and as an act of defiance makes the most sense to me, I think. Still not totally sure, but...."This job I would do for free."

"Neener neener, we held the valley," seems very Mal ;)

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

NBZ

Thursday, August 30, 2007 10:56 PM

Plenty of good thoughts and discussion points.

Quote:
Originally posted by jetflair:
I agree with you to an extent about Zoe, and it goes back to nine people seeing nine different things. There is a deleted scene with Zoe talking to Simon, telling him how Mal lost his humanity and mercy in Serenity Valley. It really nagged at me for a while, because everything in me screamed "No, that's not true!"

Serenity Valley hurt Mal deeply, I believe that. But not the way she put it. Seems to me she tries, just like everyone on the ship, to understand certain things about Mal. Sometimes they understand him right, sometimes they understand him wrong.

I am 114.7% in agreement. (that means totally)

Quote:
But I have to (probably) disagree about it affecting him less......tell me this isn't a pretty devastated Mal:

Not saying he wasn't devastated. What I was suggesting is that the devastation did not end there. The time after that was also harder on him than on Zoe.

The actual loss of Serenity probably did hit Mal harder. he was the commanding sergeant. He ordered people to their death. Now pointlessly it seems. Being in command in such a situation will hit a person hard. It was his decisions. If he gave up earlier, would more people have lived? That is something Zoe - being under his command - cannot ever feel.

What I am suggesting is that he kept on getting hit after being knocked down. Far worse than Zoe did or even knows about.

There is the possibility that Mal may look back at Serenity Valley with nostalgia. It was a time when he had purpose. Before he lost everything. Where he was actually happy doing his duty. A time before the rest of the cr*p hit him.

Quote:
The not-bitterness....I see that as partly Mal's having moved on, having healed to an admirable extent. The other part....this is the Mal who asks Niska if he's starting a book club. This is the Mal who dodges enemy fire grinning and whooping and cracking jokes about "they don't like it when you shoot 'em." Mal has a playful attitude towards life, and while it sometimes falters, he never loses it completely.

yeah, his playfulness is really hard to write. I always thought of it that they have been through such hardship, they see normal life-risking as nothing. But then again he had that cockiness in the flashback, so I am wrong.

Quote:
How many people react this way to being stripped naked and being dumped in the desert for their crew to find?

But you forget the initial rage against Saffron. This was later when he had cooled down, found out the job had gone well.

Quote:
Heck, how many of us would think to write this as his reaction? How many comments do you think we'd get calling it unrealistic or out of character?

Plenty. I am guilty as charged.

HOPERULES

Friday, August 31, 2007 12:03 AM

I'm not sure it was rage. It seemed more like very justified name calling. Mal know about the con so I doubt he was surprised it went well.

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

SHINYSEVEN2

Friday, August 31, 2007 12:33 AM

Mal is smiling in that shot because, for one gorram time, the plan is actually working out the way it's supposed to. "Trash" plays on the audience sharing Saffron's POV: that, just like always, Mal & Co are going to commit some dangerous crime and then end up without the swag.

NBZ

Friday, August 31, 2007 12:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
I don't want to give any spoilers away, but I think you'll like the new CE commentary, NBZ.

Ron and Nathan try to pry some info out of Joss(for our benefit, I'm sure) and Joss is like NO, NO, WRONG, WRONG and NO and WRONG again!

He definitely has things planned out, like you said, and he's not giving it to us until he's ready. He does slip at times, but he catches himself quickly. I had to hit the back button a few times.

I think I will enjoy it too. I just need it to be released in the UK.

One thing I like about Joss recently is that he seems to have got some desperation back. For the past year or so, he has been pretty nonchalant. He has gone from "I don't care. If they ask me, I will make it" to "I wanna continue this tale. Even if it is on radio" (That is from the Amazon interview).

JETFLAIR

Friday, August 31, 2007 12:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:

The actual loss of Serenity probably did hit Mal harder. he was the commanding sergeant. He ordered people to their death. Now pointlessly it seems. Being in command in such a situation will hit a person hard. It was his decisions. If he gave up earlier, would more people have lived? That is something Zoe - being under his command - cannot ever feel.

What I am suggesting is that he kept on getting hit after being knocked down. Far worse than Zoe did or even knows about.

There is the possibility that Mal may look back at Serenity Valley with nostalgia. It was a time when he had purpose. Before he lost everything. Where he was actually happy doing his duty. A time before the rest of the cr*p hit him.

Okay, I'm agreeing totally with that :D Well, you've read my fanfic, so you kinda know my take on that period ;)

Zoe probably suffered more in the moment - the defeat of losing the war, the physical suffering of being abandoned in the valley, the heartbreak of being among the dead and the dying. The actual events were the traumatic ones for her.

For Mal, I'm thinking it was the ramifications that hurt the worst. The loss of lives under his command, the question of whether the fight was worth it, the fact that the universe including him was going to have to live under Alliance rule, the question of whether he could have fought smarter or better and somehow changed the outcome, the shaken/destroyed faith......

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

KATESFRIEND

Friday, August 31, 2007 1:43 AM

Another way of looking at it is Mal's sense of humor is one of his greatest survival strategies. Anything less than an incredible sense of humor would lead most people in Mal's state to end it all quickly, or get someone else to end them. You can either laugh or cry or rage at most situations. How we react is the only choice we get to make. And that choice defines us as to our character. Mal's character is just a little quirkier than most.

MAL4PREZ

Friday, August 31, 2007 2:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Katesfriend:
Another way of looking at it is Mal's sense of humor is one of his greatest survival strategies.

I'm totally with you on this. It's true of most of Joss's characters, that they can always find humor in a very dark place, and that helps them survive the crap that Joss puts them through. The odd mix is what makes his shows so damned entertaining!

And of course, we must keep in mind that this *is* a work of fiction, and Joss had to make it funny to draw in his audience. He remade the pilot to make Mal less dark and more snarky - on Fox's orders! But underneath, Joss has made it clear that Mal's a bitter, messed-up man who's lost touch with his former self. He's hollowed out - Nathan says that himself!

So sorry, jetflair, I have to lovingly disagree! (Don't hate me LOL!) I think Mal did lose his "humanity and mercy" in Serenity Valley (and possibly the events following, though I think that's more fannon.) Not completely - the noble, cheerful young man is still in there. River serves to help him find that inner hero again, and his journey from anti-hero to hero is the arc of his character.

Doesn't mean he can't be playful. His cheer in Trash seems perfectly in character to me - he'd never admit to being humiliated. I mean, he won the overall battle with Saffron, but she snookered him into getting naked. Rather than admit the little defeat, he plays it up with an overblown lack of embarrassment. He's often doing that around Inara. (bobbly headed dolls, bwaaa!, etc)

Schooner: displaying the name as a dig at the Alliance - excellent take on it! Kind of like walking around in his uniform all the time as a way of giving the Alliance the finger. Totally works for me.

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HOPERULES

Friday, August 31, 2007 3:55 PM

Here is my theory about Mal. Losing the War broke him - broke his faith, his heart, his spirit. However, he couldn't change. He is who he is. Therefore, in order to stay sane, he makes his world really small, small enough he can protect it. Maybe he could not win the war, but he could keep Serenity and its crew flying and free. It is the primary motivation for most of his actions. If he considers someone crew, he would do everything he could to protect them. If not he does not, they are semi-expendable. I do think this attitude changes over time and especially in the movie.

I've often thought that a better response to the Zoe question about leaving no man behind is, "Well, he wasn't our man."

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

JETFLAIR

Friday, August 31, 2007 5:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
So sorry, jetflair, I have to lovingly disagree! (Don't hate me LOL!) I think Mal did lose his "humanity and mercy" in Serenity Valley (and possibly the events following, though I think that's more fannon.) Not completely - the noble, cheerful young man is still in there.

Doesn't mean he can't be playful. His cheer in Trash seems perfectly in character to me - he'd never admit to being humiliated. I mean, he won the overall battle with Saffron, but she snookered him into getting naked. Rather than admit the little defeat, he plays it up with an overblown lack of embarrassment. He's often doing that around Inara. (bobbly headed dolls, bwaaa!, etc)

Gorram you! :mutters: How can you disagree with me? ;) All people I respect must agree with me to validate my sense of self-worth. :mutters more:

I reckon I do have a rather sunnier outlook on Mal than you do. Maybe it's the fact that I so adore that noble and cheerful young man :)

I agree to an extent that the lack of embarrassment is a cover....almost as yet another act of defiance towards life and circumstances. "You think *this* is going to embarass me? #$%@ you!" So, yes, a mite overblown, but I also see it as more of a conscious choice and not just a cover.

I think he decided not to be embarrassed about jumping out of his skin every time someone comes around a corner, or about facing his crew stark naked. He enjoyed that altogether too much for it to have been entirely a cover.

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

MAL4PREZ

Friday, August 31, 2007 7:11 PM

Hoperules - wow, excellently worded. That is very much what I think - Mal exists in his little world. To give himself control.

Quote:
Originally posted by jetflair:
Gorram you! :mutters: How can you disagree with me?

I'm just a bad baaaad person.

Quote:
I reckon I do have a rather sunnier outlook on Mal than you do. Maybe it's the fact that I so adore that noble and cheerful young man :)

Whereas I like my fictional men dark and broody... as long as there is ample fun-making of the dark broody stereotype LOL! Joss is just the master for making this happen, first with Angel, then with Mal. Although, I never did find Angel all that attractive. Maybe it's the forehead.

Quote:
He enjoyed that altogether too much for it to have been entirely a cover.

Absolutely - I'm with you on that! He did like the exhibitionist part of it quite a lot... now, is that a bit of Nathan sneaking through? LOL!

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JETFLAIR

Friday, August 31, 2007 7:35 PM

I think it's the dichotomy between the dark and broody and the noble and cheerful that grabs me about Mal...the best of both fictional worlds rolled into one. The fact that he's dark and broody but can still be cheeful and kind....oh yeah!

Now, if it were real life, I'd probably marry Wash. But I'd have one mad crush on Mal.....

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

MAL4PREZ

Friday, August 31, 2007 8:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jetflair:
Now, if it were real life, I'd probably marry Wash. But I'd have one mad crush on Mal.....

Ain't that the truth. Maybe marry Wash after a stormy and torrid affair with Mal... Mmm, I should write me some Mary Sue fic!

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KATESFRIEND

Saturday, September 1, 2007 2:36 AM

If you, Mal4Prez, write too broody of a Mal, and you, Jetflair, write too sunny of a Mal, could possibly a collaboration of sorts occur, then all of your fans would receive a Mal that to all extents and purposes, would be the "perfect" Mal - at least outside of Joss's mind. That could tide us over until we get the sequels, right? Not that both of you write anything other than wonderful fic - some of the best out there for sure, but collaboration can be very interesting, especially at the level of talent you both have. Can you see I'm desperate for more Firefly?

NOSADSEVEN

Saturday, September 1, 2007 7:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jetflair:
I think it's the dichotomy between the dark and broody and the noble and cheerful that grabs me about Mal...the best of both fictional worlds rolled into one. The fact that he's dark and broody but can still be cheeful and kind....oh yeah!

I'm right with you (as I'm sure you well know

). It is the presence of both aspects of Mal that I find so compelling, and more specifically, which aspect of Mal surfaces under which situations, and why. It is a fascination that both Inara and Book admit to sharing, so I guess we're in good company!

When I think of those contradictions of Mal's character, I find myself looking back at his childhood. That fleeting glimpse of his Mama and the family of ranch hands she created, and the obvious comfort he found in God... these things helped build him a strong, solid foundation, with footings dug in to bedrock. A foundation of who he is, what's right and wrong, and what is important in life. So he grew into the God revering man with his homilies and ideals and tales of glory, aided in life by his inborn determination and leadership skills (and humor!).

After Serenity Valley, when the edifice of his character is gutted and destroyed, what survives is that foundation of who he was. When he rebuilds himself following that devastation, it's in a different style than his earlier self: the materials are different, the structure, the design... but underneath, the fundamental shape of his self is determined by that solid foundation. Those core values are still there, because they are the shape of him. The belief in God is still there. What's changed is how he's decided to react to God and those values. He never truly escapes them, because of the solidness with which they were laid.

"None of it means a damn thing."

I think River's insight into Mal's thinking shows us both what allows Mal to be as happy as he is, and what keeps him from greater happiness. I think it is a way of thinking he's applied to all of those things that damn well do mean something - the things that mean so much, the only way to deal with their loss is the denial of their importance.

His adoption of that belief allowed him to survive and keep moving after losing the faith that had carried him through the war itself. But it also blurred the boundaries of who he was, and what he would allow himself to do, letting him take that step from technical criminality to outright thievery. It allows him to be the stone cold killer, the thief, the mean old man, while it holds him back from getting to that healthier, happier place.

While that attitude may be too vital to his ability to handle the darkness for him to release it, it could also just be habit at this point, having served its purpose and usefulness during the crisis of the post-war period and only serving to hold him back now. But either way, it is a denial of himself, a lie, that seems to make him find his own behaviors a bit confounding at times.

I think he has managed to get himself to a relatively happy a place on Serenity, striking a balance between the man he was, and the hard man he had to become. He's not still fighting the war, he's not swallowing a bullet. Instead, he's created a family around him, where he can enjoy the warmth and pleasure of companionship, the strength of leadership, and a purpose for carrying on. He's lost in the woods, but as he's explained, that is because that is where he needs to be for things to be clear to him. Where the choices are easier because they are all a matter of survival.

But I do think Mal can find greater happiness. People grow, things change, stuff happens. Stuff happened in Serenity, and as has been pointed out, he seems to be in a whole new place after that. Someplace where he can see a path without being in the woods, perhaps. Someplace where some of it does mean something. So I think there is room for growth and hope in the more personal and relationship areas of his life. (Discounting, of course, Joss's in

KATESFRIEND

Saturday, September 1, 2007 12:50 PM

Nosadseven, that was as brilliant summary of Mal's character as I've ever read. Now I understand the "Lost in the woods" analogy - perfect for a PTSD survivor. And "None of this means a damn thing" now has a deeper, sadder poignancy to it than ever before. Thanks for your wonderful insights!

PLATONIST

Saturday, September 1, 2007 2:28 PM

Great reading, nosadseven, And I do agree with everything you wrote.

I think it is hard to ignore Mal's character arc in the film.

He does the right thing for the right reason and it makes all the difference. He helps the Tams, balances the scales of justice and shows us who he really is. And at the end...he has his ship in the sky, new family members, and the lady he loves is circling.

Joss keeps saying the movie is about "belief".
IMHO believing in your self is the best place to start. Good advice from the Shepherd.

JONDESU

Sunday, September 2, 2007 6:08 AM

I agree completely. In fact, I'm working on a very positive view of Mal in a post-BDM version of the 'verse. Basically, if Serenity Valley ripped Mal's faith from him, I think that Miranda forced it back into him. The death of Shepherd Book, the kindness of his former enemy in the Operative... I think those might actually have him looking at faith again, if not entirely in God, at least a little more faith in mankind, which would still yield a less dark person, less "hollowed out inside" as Joss put it. I'm trying to do it very realistically, but I guess ya'll can be the judge of that when I finish the story (though no promises on when that'll be).

jW

"Yep, that went well."

MAL4PREZ

Sunday, September 2, 2007 4:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Katesfriend:
If you, Mal4Prez, write too broody of a Mal, and you, Jetflair, write too sunny of a Mal...

I don't think that's the difference here. Jetflair has plenty of shadows and brooding in her Mal, and... well... I've tried to give him banter and humor whenever I can, although events in my fic have not allowed a ton of that. But even in my latest, my take on the first U-Day, I have him dark and violent, but still cracking jokes. May not be so funny, but I tried!

I think the real difference between jetflair and I is Mal's state of healing. She's been doing an exploration of the time after the war in which he faces his demons then, and so he's pretty much got himself together by the time he buys Serenity. (Correct me if I'm over-simplifying jetflair! I'm going by what you've posted here, though I know your fic isn't done...)

Now, I'm more in nosadseven's school of thought, that Mal is not healed at the time of the series. He's getting by on a strong foundation from a steady childhood, and he's got his leadership and humor and cleverness intact. But all that is sitting over some pretty serious hurt that he's doing his best to avoid. "it is a denial of himself, a lie, that seems to make him find his own behaviors a bit confounding at times" Yay - exactly! (Dang - why don't you write fic NSS?)

Have to say, if my fanfic version of Mal doesn't fit every bit of what NSS said, then it's because I haven't expressed myself clearly LOL! I can't agree more with her take.

Anyway, to really heal so that he can live life fully, Mal needs something to knock him out of his comfort zone and force him to face up to his issues. Which won't be fun for him, but it's the only way he can truly recover. The movie did this for him. I think that's River's role, to force him out into the big world again. Which maybe is why I'm writing a version of the `verse without the movie, so I can explore that arc my own way.

Oh - and no one would want to collaborate with me! I'm too slow and opinionated, I think I'd drive the other writer nuts LOL!

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

SAFEAT2ND

Sunday, September 2, 2007 4:30 PM

So essentially, The war amplified some of his traits and blurred others? I get that.

His sense of loyalty and honour, while there before the war, is magnified while his sense of religion and some of it's finer points gets blurred. So this would allow him to justify some of the shadier jobs he takes as long as it involves sticking it to the Alliance. But in the same breath, as in the Train Job, once he finds out how the 'job' affects regular people, he has a change of heart because it contradicts his heighened sense of honour.

That sound about right? Robin Hood Syndrome?

_______________________________________________________________
"Got a headful of lightning
And a heart full of rain
And I know that I said
I'd never do it again
Oh and I love you sweet baby but I always take the long way home."

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