Rayne Lovers and Haters

POSTED BY: crystalkei
UPDATED: Sunday, June 14, 2009 16:41
VIEWED: 28827
PAGE 1 of 1

CRYSTALKEI

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:21 PM

Okay, I write it, I do. I heart Rayne, but unlike many folks that I have had a chance to talk to on Rayne sites. I don't think there is any basis in canon for it. We love it, but I don't think Joss was going there. At least not anytime soon. Taking 'copper for a kiss' and his reaction to her in the BDM during the lilac job as pre-rayne is stretching...WAY streching.

I look at it like this: Spike didn't show up in S2 of Buffy with the idea OMG! I want Buffy! Joss didn't say, let's get this badass and then he can dump his crazy GF, and by S6 he can be so obsessed with Buffy that he can try to rape her, then go get a soul just for her. Now, I love Spike/Buffy, I think they made a better pair than her and Angel, but if Jayne and River were gonna get together in the show, it would have HAD to be seasons later. WAY later.

So, let's hash it out...i know there are lovers and haters of the ship...I love it, but I can also see that it's all in my head. How 'bout you?

Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly

TINADOLL

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 2:36 PM

I used to be a Jaylee fan. Now i actually <3 Rayne more. For some reason i see Jayne and River as a perfect match. Both are dangerous but with childlike additudes.

I still think River could kick Jaynes butt though!

CRYSTALKEI

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 2:39 PM

i do love to have them beat the crap out of eachother routinely in my fics. like buffy and spike 'bringin down the house' in season 6.

Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly

TINADOLL

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 2:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by crystalkei:
i do love to have them beat the crap out of eachother routinely in my fics. like buffy and spike 'bringin down the house' in season 6.

Those are the best fics. I tell ya!

And I love it when it ends and he carries her to his bunk

LEIASKY

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 3:11 PM

I don't particularly like it. I don't think Joss would have gone there - at least not in the first 5 years. . .

But - that said, if anything is written believably, I'll read it. But rarely is anything Rayne (or any non cannon pairing )related written believably enough to make me like it - or want to read anything else by that author if they're known to write only that pairing.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

CRYSTALKEI

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 3:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Leiasky:
I don't particularly like it. I don't think Joss would have gone there - at least not in the first 5 years. . .

i am with you on that...i am...hence my wondering what others think.

ps...i love your stuff L!

Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly

TINADOLL

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 3:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Leiasky:
But - that said, if anything is written believably, I'll read it. But rarely is anything Rayne (or any non cannon pairing )related written believably enough to make me like it - or want to read anything else by that author if they're known to write only that pairing.

I actually feel that way about Malara. Every fic i have read pairing Mal with Inara its always sappy and angsty. It doesn't catch my attention.

LEIASKY

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 3:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tinadoll:
Every fic i have read pairing Mal with Inara its always sappy and angsty. It doesn't catch my attention.

I have to agree with you. There's nothing about that potential relationship that would be easy or quick about them getting together. The snark is too much fun. I'm not nearly as interested in them, though, and I tend to skip over most of the sap related to them in stories. Mal4Prez does them well, but she's one of the few.

But - this is a Rayne thread, I don't want to veer too much off topic! LOL!

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

TINADOLL

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 3:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Leiasky:
Quote:
Originally posted by Tinadoll:
Every fic i have read pairing Mal with Inara its always sappy and angsty. It doesn't catch my attention.

I have to agree with you. There's nothing about that potential relationship that would be easy or quick about them getting together. The snark is too much fun. I'm not nearly as interested in them, though, and I tend to skip over most of the sap related to them in stories. Mal4Prez does them well, but she's one of the few.

But - this is a Rayne thread, I don't want to veer too much off topic! LOL!

I have read Mal4Prez's fics. They are really good. But yes-The snark is way too much fun. On the other hand the potential phsicallity of Rayne makes it all the more interesting

(lol see how i got back on topic there)

LEIASKY

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 3:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tinadoll:
On the other hand the potential phsicallity of Rayne makes it all the more interesting

(lol see how i got back on topic there)

Yes, I can see it. But - not immediately and it would take a LOT of time and character growth on both sides. If Joss went that way, I think it would have taken years. Taking time is something most fic writers don't do. They just write their favorite pairing without any thought as to whether it would be believable or not. Nothing wrong with it. Some people will like it regardless and not care.

But it's important to me as a reader (and as a writer), though not everyone is so picky:)

Tamsinling wrote a long story that had the rayne pairing develop over time. The name of it escapes me at the moment. She does list pairings on her stories so I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to find.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

TINADOLL

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 3:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Leiasky:
Quote:
Originally posted by Tinadoll:
On the other hand the potential phsicallity of Rayne makes it all the more interesting

(lol see how i got back on topic there)

Yes, I can see it. But - not immediately and it would take a LOT of time and character growth on both sides. If Joss went that way, I think it would have taken years. Taking time is something most fic writers don't do. They just write their favorite pairing without any thought as to whether it would be believable or not. Nothing wrong with it. Some people will like it regardless and not care.

But it's important to me as a reader (and as a writer), though not everyone is so picky:)

Tamsinling wrote a long story that had the rayne pairing develop over time. The name of it escapes me at the moment. She does list pairings on her stories so I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to find.

I like Taminsling as well. However long stories are not geranlly good ones. I have read stories 15 chapters long that are much better then 50. Sometimes its just too much. For Rayne,hoewever, its nessisary. I don't think River ,when the canon ended with BDM, was ready for anything. Girls been through alot. She gotta learn the basics.

I wish more fics dealt less pairings or off canon characters (Guilty as charged) and more with individual characters. Well done Rayne(or Jaylee) is my fav as well as Wash/Zoe and Mal/Inara. But there is a lot of crap floating out there. And i haven't bothered reading new fics in awhile.

LEIASKY

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 3:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tinadoll:
But there is a lot of crap floating out there.

Truer words were never spoken. Sooooo much crap! Though, I blame Mal4Prez for making me sooooo picky in the last 6 months. LOL!

Not that I wasn't before, but, its worse now. LOL!

Quote:
I like Taminsling as well. However long stories are not geranlly good ones.

I mostly agree. Long chapter stories, especially if they take a long time to complete, are very hard to follow - and I usually just give up and don't bother.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

SINGATE

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 4:52 PM

I'm not a big reader of fanfic but I do believe this relationship to be completely plausible. I don't base this on anything that happened between them on screen. There is very little even hinted at in the series other than Jayne's comment about her "not all being there, but then again not all of her has to be". The one thing during the series that leads me to the pairing didn't involve either Jayne or River. The comment by Simon that Kaylee is literally the only girl for him would also be true for River with regards to Jayne. The only other option would be Mal and that's never going to happen.

Post BDM her mind seems to be clear enough that she could engage in a romantic relationship, and let's face it, her hormones will be kicking in as well.

I don't suggest that Jayne would jump at the opportunity. In fact, I think River would be the one to broach the idea. As much as Jayne is ruled by his libido he isn't a complete idiot. He knows the rest of the crew would be very protective of River and doesn't want to catch any more heat than he does for his other activities.

_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

MOBBEX

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:52 PM

Don't make faces

Here's how I see it.

Or how I DON'T see it, actually... Hell, where did this even come from? I mean, as it's been said, there realy is no canon base for it. Why would they ever be interested in each other?

Because they are both "living weapons"? Thats niou-se. Jayne may enjoy that side of himself but River surely doesn't. Her inability to deal with violence or highly aggressive emotions has been detailed on more that a few occasions. Then again, she also has wrecked quite a lot of havoc herself on a few occasion, but she did so out of A) behavior conditionning B) the need to protect her brother/crew. River isn't a violent creature. Violence freaks her out. As for Jayne, well, he personifies violence, he enjoys it. There more to him than that, granted, but not much.

So, they both have "childish" episodes? Well, as I see it, Jayne's underdevelopped psyche is the result of his primal upbringing and his "me against the world" lifestyle. He never needed to develop his human side, so he never bothered to. On the other hand, River's bouts of infantile behavior result from needles (and a great variety of oher sharp objects) being thrust through her brainpan. No to mention the fact that she is a traumatized 17 years old girl with basically no life experience. These behavior patterns might be similar at first glance, but they come from two totaly different places. Jayne embraces it ; River is trying to grow out of it. And I like to believe that she is succeeding, I'm a hopeful sort

But what do they feel for each other? First of all, lets face it : Jayne hates her guts. He never hid the fact that he didnt want her on the ship. He tried to sell her out! Twice! Thrice? He's always viewed her as a threat. 'Turns out he was right, too. As for River, I think it's fair to say that she has very little consideration for him. Obviously she is aware of his latent hostility, and it's just as obvious that it doesn't unsettles her the least bit.

Bottom line: There will always be a huge gap between them. I think they could get along eventually, on a professionnal level, but romance? Not in a million years!

(Point of interest: I left out the age difference thing deliberately, because I realy think it's totaly irrelevant.)

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 7:14 PM

I do see a basis for an understanding and friendship between these two. River's not going to bond so well with someone "normal," and she doesn't have many options as far as people to hang out with. Jayne's got a simplicity that I think she'd enjoy messing with, and he could eventually see her as an annoying little sister. Maybe like messing back. (No - not THAT kind of messing!)

If the series had gotten all it's 7 seasons, maybe something more could have happened. In like - season 6 or 7, after River had settled down quite a bit and gotten some life experience.

Problem is, so much Rayne-fic has them just jumping right into bed, and that can only be accomplished by making them both so out of character that I lose interest. That said, I've never left a comment flaming anyone for writing Rayne. They can write all they want, but I've given up on reading it. I never make it far.

And... this will be unpopular with some... but can I say that I'm a bit squicked by any fic that has a BDM panting over her? The River pairings I've seen seem to start with Mal or Jayne suddenly watching her little body and how she moves and getting all hot and bothered. It makes me want to call that MSNBC guy to come and catch the predator LOL! I mean, a grown man being attracted to a mentally disturbed girl? Freaks me out! Can't it start with a connection between their personalities and minds and slowly - very slowly - progress from there? Please?

(And - thanks for the defense of Mal/Inara Leaisky, and the nice words Tinadoll!)

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

ROMANCEGURU

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 7:59 PM

I get what you’re saying. If I stopped long enough to pull my head out of the clouds, and think in canon terms, I agree that the relationship would have been a very slow build.

There’s a huge debate over whether Joss would of gone there eventually, I say yes. The pairing is twisted, fun, sexy, and humorous. I also think it helps that the actors themselves had loads of OS chemistry. Perhaps it’s just that, that makes Rayne lovers interpret certain canon moments as something more?

Yes, Jayne disliked River during canon, but after Miranda, I think he finally gained insight, saw the bigger picture. It goes with the whole Jayne dislikes what he can’t understand theory.

Fic wise, I’m too impatient to write a six season story arc. I find abrupt and out of left corner Rayne just as amusing. That’s my purgative. First and foremost, I write for me (as most writers do). It’s an outlet and it’s supposed to be fun. Remember fun?

While it’s fulfilling to hook new readers, I’m not going to stress about making everyone happy. It’s impossible. There are those that already enjoy Rayne and “see it”. I write for those people.

“River isn't a violent creature. Violence freaks her out. As for Jayne, well, he personifies violence, he enjoys it. There more to him than that, granted, but not much.”

I can see the part of River that is freaked out about it, but I can also see her embracing who she is now. How else is she going to cope?

There’s a morbidity to her that some people forget, and for better or worse, I think it’s going to remained ingrained in her personality. River is not going to return to the sweet girl she was pre-academy. While she might not enjoy violence per say, I think she will use her abilities in the future and not bat an eye. She’s smart enough to know how the ‘verse works, and will adjust accordingly.

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What we need's a diversion. I say Zoe gets nekkid.

CRYSTALKEI

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 8:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:

“River isn't a violent creature. Violence freaks her out. As for Jayne, well, he personifies violence, he enjoys it. There more to him than that, granted, but not much.”

I can see the part of River that is freaked out about it, but I can also see her embracing who she is now. How else is she going to cope?

There’s a morbidity to her that some people forget, and for better or worse, I think it’s going to remained ingrained in her personality. River is not going to return to the sweet girl she was pre-academy. While she might not enjoy violence per say, I think she will use her abilities in the future and not bat an eye. She’s smart enough to know how the ‘verse works, and will adjust accordingly.
B]

so true! she is a completely different person than the kid that went off to the academy, she's making her place in the world with who she is NOW, not before.

Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly

TINADOLL

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 8:18 PM

Quote:
It makes me want to call that MSNBC guy to come and catch the predator LOL!

That just made me spit coffee! (waves@ Mal4prez)

There are some great points in this thread (yah thread)(for the River/Jayne pairing anyway) I am sure that Adam Baldwin would think differently- he thinks Inara and Jayne would have made a cute couple... Oh the horror...

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 8:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:
Fic wise, I’m too impatient to write a six season story arc. I find abrupt and out of left corner Rayne just as amusing. That’s my purgative. First and foremost, I write for me (as most writers do). It’s an outlet and it’s supposed to be fun. Remember fun?

I'm all good with fun! Really, I don't hate this pairing, I just never have been able to enjoy it. And it's not even a canon thing - I've encounted Mal/Simon and Mal/Jayne that I found entertaining, although that's waaaay outside canon. But I just never have been able to get into any River pairing.

I guess that's kind of weird... slash before River romance. There's no accounting for taste!

Quote:
While it’s fulfilling to hook new readers, I’m not going to stress about making everyone happy. It’s impossible. There are those that already enjoy Rayne and “see it”. I write for those people.

And please continue! These threads are all about getting from 9 to 5 LOL!

Quote:
There’s a morbidity to her that some people forget, and for better or worse, I think it’s going to remained ingrained in her personality.

I so agree! I think she's a little crucible of stuff that's gonna meld and come out as something completely new someday. And be really really cool.

Damn, I was this show hadn't been cancelled LOL!

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 8:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tinadoll:
That just made me spit coffee! (waves@ Mal4prez)

*waves* Mission accomplished LOL!

Quote:
There are some great points in this thread (yah thread)(for the River/Jayne pairing anyway) I am sure that Adam Baldwin would think differently- he thinks Inara and Jayne would have made a cute couple... Oh the horror...

hunh.

That's one you don't see often. Can't even picture it. (Not trying too hard...)

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

CRYSTALKEI

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:10 PM

yeah, i just watched the CE commentary and there is a whole bit about adam pitching to joss about hookin' up with inara...so funny! i mean, that would have just been hilariously weird.

Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly

MOBBEX

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:42 PM

Don't make faces

Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:
I can see the part of River that is freaked out about it, but I can also see her embracing who she is now. How else is she going to cope?

There’s a morbidity to her that some people forget, and for better or worse, I think it’s going to remained ingrained in her personality. River is not going to return to the sweet girl she was pre-academy. While she might not enjoy violence per say, I think she will use her abilities in the future and not bat an eye. She’s smart enough to know how the ‘verse works, and will adjust accordingly.

************************************************
What we need's a diversion. I say Zoe gets nekkid.

As I said before, I think that in time she can learn to deal with the bad and the ugly, but I don't think she is ever likely to enjoy it. She has a morbid streak, no denying, but she hasn't lost her humanity. And, if anything. I think she will only get more of it back with time. So assuming she decides to stay with the crew, she would make a damn fine pilot, and I can see her defending the ship on occasion. But helping out on jobs, assaulting alliance installations, torturing people for information or whatever... Nah, leave that to Jayne. And Zoe. And Mal. And [insert OC name here].

So yeah I don't think she can ever take death and pain lightly. Sure, she can wield 'em with style, but that's not her world. Thats one of the reason I can't see her ever hooking up with Jayne, and that's also why I can't see her becoming the remorse-less buttock-saving killing machine she depicted as in so many fics. Realy I just read that as the easy(read: lazy) way to write action/fight scenes, think "Then River comes in and kill's them all. End." Coping with the past is good. Becoming a stone-cold super ninja is something entirely else.

TAM: Nickname for Scottish/Gaelic Tomas, meaning, "twin"

ROMANCEGURU

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:43 PM

Quote:
But I just never have been able to get into any River pairing.

That’s understandable. We all have our mental blocks, mine is Jaylee (too saccharine for my tastes). To each his or her own, right? I appreciate that you’re a full supporter of artistic freedom! : )

Quote:
And please continue! These threads are all about getting from 9 to 5 LOL!

Oh, I will. I enjoy it too much not to. ; )

It’s just the people that expect you to convince them (when really, these are the same people that will never be convinced of it, perhaps even if Joss decided to go there) that irk me.

Quote:
I so agree! I think she's a little crucible of stuff that's gonna meld and come out as something completely new someday. And be really really cool.

Damn, I was this show hadn't been cancelled LOL!

Yes, too bad! That’s why I find River the most intriguing to write, because there’s just so much to explore! I love that girl. I feel no guilt in shipping her, but believe you me, I can understand the other side of it. : )

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"And I'll just fade away."

ROMANCEGURU

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:44 PM

Adam still feels that way? *cries* Thank god Joss is in charge!

ROMANCEGURU

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:01 PM

Quote:
As I said before, I think that in time she can learn to deal with the bad and the ugly, but I don't think she is ever likely to enjoy it. She has a morbid streak, no denying, but she hasn't lost her humanity. And, if anything. I think she will only get more of it back with time. So assuming she decides to stay with the crew, she would make a damn fine pilot, and I can see her defending the ship on occasion. But helping out on jobs, assaulting alliance installations, torturing people for information or whatever... Nah, leave that to Jayne. And Zoe. And Mal. And [insert OC name here].

So yeah I don't think she can ever take death and pain lightly. Sure, she can wield 'em with style, but that's not her world. Thats one of the reason I can't see her ever hooking up with Jayne, and that's also why I can't see her becoming the remorse-less buttock-saving killing machine she depicted as in so many fics. Realy I just read that as the easy(read: lazy) way to write action/fight scenes, think "Then River comes in and kill's them all. End." Coping with the past is good. Becoming a stone-cold super ninja is something entirely else.

I agree that there has to be a balance between new and old River, her humanity and the weapon inside of her.

But I disagree that her conscious is pure. She seen things, horrible things and for better or worse she’s affected. There’s an indifference to her and a wall that she can summon, that I think would allow her to make the choice to help the crew.

Yes, she will never enjoy it, but she doesn’t need to. She’s embedded with that switch. And thank god, because the full reality of it would be overwhelming.

I don’t think Mal or Zoe particularly enjoys killing either, but they do it nonetheless. I’m also not so certain Jayne’s a hundred percent with the idea either. Sure he enjoys a good fight, but it’s not like he’s in his bunk dreaming up the next time he can blow someone’s head off. This is the life they lead. Adaptation my dear friend.

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"Don't belong. Dangerous, like you."

CRYSTALKEI

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:21 PM

let's go back to buffy for a moment...buffy never wanted to be the slayer, she didn't particularly enjoy slaying like say, faith did. But, she did it, it was her job. yada yada. i think river can take the step to know that it's part of who she is, and it's necessary sometimes to use that yucky part of her to help her family out. she doesn't have to enjoy killing to want to be part of a job. not all the jobs involve killin' and when they do, it's not like they plan that part. how you plan and what is gonna happen ain't exactly that similar. ;D

Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly

NBZ

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by crystalkei:
let's go back to buffy for a moment...buffy never wanted to be the slayer, she didn't particularly enjoy slaying like say, faith did. But, she did it, it was her job. yada yada. i think river can take the step to know that it's part of who she is, and it's necessary sometimes to use that yucky part of her to help her family out. she doesn't have to enjoy killing to want to be part of a job. not all the jobs involve killin' and when they do, it's not like they plan that part. how you plan and what is gonna happen ain't exactly that similar. ;D

Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly

But isn't she the anti-Buffy? In other words she does not have to kill anything (Simon tried to take her away from that world.), and there is no such thing as "Vampires and demons that need to be destroyed" in the firefly 'Verse.

(I will try and not comment on Rayne as I will probably offend many people in doing so.)

CRYSTALKEI

Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:34 PM

she doesn't have to kill anything, and like i said, she doesn't want to, but it doesn't seem hugely out of character for her to go out on jobs. she went pretty willingly in the BDM... and well, i am pretty hard to offend, go ahead and post your rayne views. ;D I like to hear the opinions, its fun!

Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly

MOBBEX

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 12:03 AM

Don't make faces

Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:
I agree that there has to be a balance between new and old River, her humanity and the weapon inside of her.

Yes!

Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:
But I disagree that her conscious is pure. She seen things, horrible things and for better or worse she’s affected. There’s an indifference to her and a wall that she can summon, that I think would allow her to make the choice to help the crew. Yes, she will never enjoy it, but she doesn’t need to. She’s embedded with that switch. And thank god, because the full reality of it would be overwhelming.

That she is, but I don't believe she can clear a room of it's people content and sleep particularly well the next night, y' know? Still, that can be tended to. Conscience is a fluid thing, even more so for borderline schizophrenic people.

Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:
I don’t think Mal or Zoe particularly enjoys killing either, but they do it nonetheless. I’m also not so certain Jayne’s a hundred percent with the idea either. Sure he enjoys a good fight, but it’s not like he’s in his bunk dreaming up the next time he can blow someone’s head off. This is the life they lead. Adaptation my dear friend.

All in all, it realy comes down to the life she chooses for herself. Now, on account of some terrible business decisions I absolutely refuse to elaborate on, we will never know for certain what path she would have set herself on. That's a shame

. Still, here's my humble opinion : Given her state of emotional vulnerability, "adapting" to a life of killing could be quite the tiresome process, and not one that would necessarily be worth the trouble in the long run. Take it or leave it

I see that we are thinking along the same lines or near enough

'Guess we just disagree on a particular point or two.

Sorry for going repetedly off topic, too

TAM: Nickname for Scottish/Gaelic Tomas, meaning, "twin"

ROMANCEGURU

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 2:05 AM

River characterization is hard to pinpoint. We all see slightly different variances. And that’s fine, no one opinion is the right one. Unless it’s Joss’s. : )

It is interesting to hear every one’s different take, though.

Yeah, back on topic… What was it again? ;-p

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"Gorram freak's completely off her axle."

PONYXPRESSINC

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 6:47 AM

Leiasky said...

Quote:
They just write their favorite pairing without any thought as to whether it would be believable or not. Nothing wrong with it. Some people will like it regardless and not care.

This interested me as it struck a cord with my first experience of reading Rayne. It was a PWP and I came close to running away screaming. To come across that out of nowhere when I was new to the whole fanfic experience and fairly new to the whole fandom thing at all was pretty startling. (I've been with Firefly from the first airing in the UK, but this is the first fandom that I've been involved in and it took me a while to get here). Anyway, it was a good while before I had another go at a Rayne fic, which had all the slow development and then, I started to see it as possible and to enjoy it.

Then I noticed a change, I can deal quite happily with the fic's that jump straight in. My head's up to speed, I see it as possible and now I don't need the fic equivalent of dinner and a movie to enjoy it (I'm not talking specifically about PWP here, I'm talking about Rayne in general). I think that someone who writes Rayne (BTW I do, just not here) perhaps particularly in the Rayneshippers community doesn't feel the need to explain it all in detail every time because they know that the audience is with them.

As Romanceguru said...

Quote:
While it’s fulfilling to hook new readers, I’m not going to stress about making everyone happy. It’s impossible. There are those that already enjoy Rayne and “see it”. I write for those people.

*waves at Romanceguru* It's JD, I'm here icognito.

SPACEANJL

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 9:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I do see a basis for an understanding and friendship between these two. River's not going to bond so well with someone "normal," and she doesn't have many options as far as people to hang out with. Jayne's got a simplicity that I think she'd enjoy messing with, and he could eventually see her as an annoying little sister. Maybe like messing back. (No - not THAT kind of messing!)

And... this will be unpopular with some... but can I say that I'm a bit squicked by any fic that has a BDM panting over her? The River pairings I've seen seem to start with Mal or Jayne suddenly watching her little body and how she moves and getting all hot and bothered. It makes me want to call that MSNBC guy to come and catch the predator LOL! I mean, a grown man being attracted to a mentally disturbed girl? Freaks me out! Can't it start with a connection between their personalities and minds and slowly - very slowly - progress from there? Please?

B]

Jayne and River with a kind of bratty sibling relationship works for me. Everything else frightens me horribly. Seriously, I don't think those two characters fit together romantically. My view:

Jayne: Sick ain't sexy, an' I don't chase children.

River: So not my type. (Pulls face) Not housebroken. No romance in his simple soul.

No, I have my own ideas who River considers a suitable target for romantic longing Yes, it might well freak a few folk out.

Mind you, it's probably going to freak out the BDH even more...

THEHEROOFWILLIAMTOWN

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 11:59 AM

I don't see it that hard to imagine. I mean if you had to listen to the various thoughts of the crew all day hanging around with Jayne would be relaxing. He would probably like her because she can actually beat him up and that sets her apart from most girls i'd conjure.

PONYXPRESSINC

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 3:04 PM

To Spaceanjl

Quote:
No, I have my own ideas who River considers a suitable target for romantic longing Yes, it might well freak a few folk out.

I could stand to hear more on the subject

It's been a while since the last Jayne/Largi outing and I for am looking forward to seeing what happens River/Mal wise.

LEIASKY

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 3:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:

No, I have my own ideas who River considers a suitable target for romantic longing Yes, it might well freak a few folk out.

Mind you, it's probably going to freak out the BDH even more... :evil

Simon?

I remember an interview with Summer where she mentions it'll be nice to play someone who isn't in love with her brother.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

MERRYK

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 5:14 PM

Quote:
I remember an interview with Summer where she mentions it'll be nice to play someone who isn't in love with her brother.

Eww. I hope she wasn't serious. At least Sean Maher was disgusted by the thought of River/Simon fanfics.

Although, why is it that most people believe that in love must mean lust? I am just as much 'in love' with my siblings as River and Simon are, and frankly find the incest comments as almost insulting to our relationship...as if any strong relationship must be sexual. Lust is such a simple explanation, and it cheapens the magnificent performances of Sean Maher and Summer Glau IMHO. Yes, they are in love with each other, but it is not sexual love, and that is important to note: they love each other not because they are attracted to each other, but because they have chosen to care for and protect unconditionally this person in their life.

It is easy to care for someone you are attracted physically to, and what makes Simon and River's relationship so powerful is that those thoughts aren't even there; they have a love as powerful as any of the great romances in the world without the cheapening explanation of sexuality.

Tamcest is to me like most slash relationships; people see a great friendship, and want to turn it into romance, when it was so much more interesting and likely as a great friendship. Those can exist without lust, I know for a fact. Can we not be in love with a relationship without sexual tones? Just because English has only one word for love does not mean that there is only one kind, and it is nice to see more variety in Firefly at least, if not exactly in fanfiction.

I think about Rayne the same way. It seems like a lot of fans want romantic relationships, but these are the easiest route. It is much more realistic (and also much more difficult for writers) to write the other forms of love: friendship, familial love, selfless love. Now, I'm not entirely against Rayne, if proper time is taken to show me how they could get together, but any interesting chemistry they had in the show/movie was due to the fact that it wasn't just the beginnings of lust. They had a complex relationship, and simplifying that to suddenly being attracted to each other is tragic IMHO. I see them having a "rapport" of professional friendship and teasing long before any romantic thoughts.

As a final note, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

~Merry

SPACEANJL

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 7:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Leiasky:
Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:

No, I have my own ideas who River considers a suitable target for romantic longing Yes, it might well freak a few folk out.

Mind you, it's probably going to freak out the BDH even more... :evil

Simon?

I remember an interview with Summer where she mentions it'll be nice to play someone who isn't in love with her brother.

B]

That's a 'no'. I know you aren't a fan of my work, but please, credit me with a little decency.

C'mon. Tall, dark, handsome war hero, with a wounded soul that he hides behind kind eyes?

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 8:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
C'mon. Tall, dark, handsome war hero, with a wounded soul that he hides behind kind eyes?

Huh... I thought you were going to say River/Kaylee LOL! You brought it up like it was something bizarre, but River/Mal is hardly novel these days. Seems like it's all over!

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

TINADOLL

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 8:52 PM

I don't see how Mal could even be considered a match for River- Considering the fact that he has the hots for Inara. I mean the Jayne/River story line is clearly speculation- but Mal/River..nah don't see it

On the other hand i want to barf when i think about Simon/River.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 8:58 PM

I agree! I could be president of a non-Mal/River club LOL!

However, I note that Spaceanjl said "River longing for..." above, and not so much an actual pairing. I very much can see River with a crush on the captain (In fact, I'm writing it LOL!) but I think it'd be a childish and naive thing - certainly not returned!

(Edit: don't hate me Mal/River writers... I'm not trying to stop you...)

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

NBZ

Wednesday, August 29, 2007 10:23 PM

ok, It is time to turn on the hate. Sorry, but I could not keep myself from spoiling this love in. Well, I will try to keep it light and not just bashing Rayne.

(In my defence I was given the go ahead to hate on it properly and have resisted for over a day. Even this post is pretty tame compared to my hatred of it. Hatred is the right word. I really do hate it with a passion.)

The following will contain a lot of assumptions. Some you may dislike, others you may find offensive. Please respond in kind. I am a large semi muscular man. I can handle it.

I will use numbers just to keep on top of my thoughts, not all of which mean anything, or go against Rayne. Call this my anti-Rayne-and-romance-in-general manifesto. (I am thinking as I am typing, so watch out for contradictions ahoy.)

1. Jayne does not Hate River. He does not feel any warmth either. If he didn't find her creepifying and a danger to them all, he would be indifferent. I see absolutely nothing there in between them to build any relationship ever. not in 5 years, ten or 15.

2. Firefly was planned from the start to last 7 seasons, with major plot points probably already planned out. (With Buffy I think I have read the future planning was done after Season 2, but don't quote me on that.)

3. Most of the characters of firefly are adults, unlike Buffy and to an extent Angel. In them character change is acceptable as part of the whole universe. Like a vampire having a total change of heart after probably hundreds of years of eating humans via a crush. (Talking about Spike, not Angel).

4. If it weren't for Rayne, I would lap up convo between River and Jayne. Now I read it with dread waiting for the Rayne to kick in.

5. I have read some Rayne. Some I was freaked out by when I started fan fic, others were by decent authors who went through the steps of getting them together. I still did not believe it as a major part of this is not just changing the character of river (which IS slightly possible), but also major changes in Jayne which I just did not buy.

6. I am of the opinion that the people who like to write Rayne are the romantics who think that they can tame a monster for themselves. They find that romantic. In the real world I would worry about physical harm in those relationships. (Even brutes have relationships where the other person defends them. "You don't understand! It was my fault that he beat me up")

7. While I do not really buy into a relationship between Mal and River, I DO see what connection is being twisted to support this (in the few scenes they have alone there is a peacefulness, acceptance that Mal lacks at all other times. Like he is at peace with what he has decided to do. And then there are the few symbolic times such as in OiS when River returns to Serenity, she does not just glide onto the ship, but Mal catches her. Symbolism? yes. But not for romance IMO. From River, in Ariel she does not lead Simon and Jayne to an exit, but to Mal and Zoe. Once again, a connection - but of safety, not romance.).

7a (because I am too lazy to change the other numbers...) At the same time in support, I have gone from "Obviously Mal will end up with Inara" to "Not a chance is hell". On another forum I really defended them getting together eventually, but when I thought about it, I just do not buy it any longer. IMO the only relationship less likely is Jayne/Inara. And Rayne obviously (the reader can decide which is more likely of the two.). I still can't see them getting jiggy with it. (See point 9)

8. I am a "why?" person. I want to know why somethign happens, how it happens etc. As was pointed out in another topic, There are also "Why not?" people. They ask why can't something happen.

9. The question that I would need answered is NOT Why would River fall for Jayne. It is entirely possible for that. She is crazy afterall. There is a chance she cannot control her hormones at all and will find everyone attractive. The question is Why Jayne (or Mal for that matter) would go for River. That is where it breaks down. Jayne to go f

ROMANCEGURU

Thursday, August 30, 2007 1:13 AM

Yes, I already know how you feel about Rayne, NBZ. Thanks for not reiterating your opinions too nastily. I’m sensitive. ; )

I think you’ve clearly given good reasons why you can never go there.

From what I gather in the fan fiction ‘verse, there are the shippers *waves* and those who are more interested in full story arcs, focusing on extensive plots and explorations of what could have been. I’m not going to hate on either, it’s all a matter of preference.

Quote:
I am of the opinion that the people who like to write Rayne are the romantics who think that they can tame a monster for themselves. They find that romantic. In the real world I would worry about physical harm in those relationships. (Even brutes have relationships where the other person defends them. "You don't understand! It was my fault that he beat me up")

I’m an admitted romantic, obviously. But this…sure it might make an interesting plot point, (I’m actually exploring something like it with a pairing you’d all murder me for) but this is not the reason I was drawn to Rayne or write it.

Sure, there might be some taming involved when it comes to Jayne, but I personally think it’s more interesting to keep the lion in him. It’s the dynamic, clashing of personalities that makes the pairing more fun.

Which goes along with your claim that Jayne needs to be changed. I can’t tell you how many people whether it be friends, acquaintances, teachers, fictional characters ect… that I’ve initially loathed, mostly because I was quick to judge or misunderstand them, that I've come to like, love and respect.

Jayne doesn’t have to change. He just has to see River in a new light. I do think there were signs in canon that he was well on his way.

Also, I can easily separate fiction from RL. That is after all the attraction. Allowing these fiction characters to be in fact, fictional.

Quote:
*waves at Romanceguru* It's JD, I'm here icognito.

Hey, JD! Undercover, eh? Sneaky woman…

*************************************************
“Noah's Ark is a problem.”

NBZ

Thursday, August 30, 2007 1:47 AM

yeah, thanks again for the understanding. Again. (it did also say haters in the title :) )

Jayne seeing River in a new light is where I will be forever stuck. Don't really want that to change either. :)

I see myself a traditionalist. Still can't accept that River would become the main pilot anytime soon, which a lot of fics to suggest. (two issues to overcome. 1. 100% Sanity (or atleast control over her actions). 2. Trust of the crew that she won't go crazy at any moment.)

If people are writing a realistic Jayne, kudos to them. he is tricky IMO as it is easy to make him child-like when he is not.

I have no problems with people writing Rayne. I just don't want to read it. Or it to become a default pairing. (A few months ago it was almost considered canon on here, before the revolt of the peasants.) As long as some thought is put into the writing/plotting all can be good.

oh, and a hilarious nugget from the firefly movie (that is the original 190 page transcript for the movie) script (which would make me extremely wary in fanfic as I know what would be coming next...)

Quote:
(On ride over to heist at start of film, )

Jayne (leaning forward): "River's touching me. She keeps coming over to my side."

(A beat, Mal tries to maintain his deflated cool.)

ROMANCEGURU

Thursday, August 30, 2007 2:21 AM

Quote:
Jayne seeing River in a new light is where I will be forever stuck. Don't really want that to change either. :) ...

Definitely, I could see that. Enjoying and appreciating their relationship as is.

I don't see him as a child either (childish at times, maybe), on that we agree. Although, it could be argued that men are in fact, overgrown children. Kidding! Maybe.

Quote:
(On ride over to heist at start of film, )

Jayne (leaning forward): "River's touching me. She keeps coming over to my side."

(A beat, Mal tries to maintain his deflated cool.)

Really?! Ha! That's too funny. Thanks for sharing that.

*************************************************
"Jayne, your mouth is talking. You might want to look to that."

NBZ

Thursday, August 30, 2007 10:26 AM

Quote:
Although, it could be argued that men are in fact, overgrown children. Kidding! Maybe.

That is more true than you may think. No need to kid about us.

SPACEANJL

Thursday, August 30, 2007 10:42 AM

Oh, hell, I'd just written a scene that had the two of them bickering like kids in the shuttle and Mal losing his cool.

My theory is that Joss Whedon uses my head as an extra storage space.

My own take on any kind of relationship between them hinges on an assumption that Jayne has smaller siblings. (He has at least one brother that we know of.) There's just something in his behaviour that speaks 'big bro' to me. And River is used to being li'l bratty sister.

PLATONIST

Thursday, August 30, 2007 2:20 PM

Oh God, That sounds hi-larious, I don't have access to the longer script.

Anyway, I think Jayne and River could be very funny together, but again, I agree with what has been said earlier. I don't think Joss would have gone there for a looooong time. And even then it would be short lived, more like a romantic stepping-stone for River.

And I don't really see much potential for Mal and River. Mal is a serious mother when it comes to his heart. Mal, being the main character, in regards to River, I see her more as Mal's broken spirit.
From a writer's POV this is a much more engaging relationship to explore than a standard romantic
scenario. Mal talks to the audience through River (the love metaphor). She conveys his feelings for us, from OIS to the film. That is the subtext the writers want us to get, not a sexual attraction.
And those that are trying to find a romantic connection (in the subtext) have to look very hard. It is just NOT there. So leave what you think only can occur between a man and a woman, behind, the writers are challenging YOU to look beyond your preconcieved notions.

ROMANCEGURU

Thursday, August 30, 2007 2:31 PM

Quote:
That is more true than you may think. No need to kid about us.

I just wanted to be cautious in case you guys weren‘t aware. ; )

Quote:
My theory is that Joss Whedon uses my head as an extra storage space.

A while back, (2005) aliaspiral wrote a very humorous fic called Backseat Driver, which sorta plays off the whole squabbling in the back of the mule and driving Mal bonkers concept.

http://aliaspiral.livejournal.com/102756.html

I guess Joss uses her head too.

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"Pain is scary."

DEEPGIRL187

Thursday, August 30, 2007 2:53 PM

I used to be an avid reader of Rayne fic. In fact, it was just about all I read (the next being Mal/River fic).

I haven't read that or any other Firefly fanfic for months now (I know, I'm a bad, bad girl ). My opinions about Rayne have changed over time, but please don't take that to mean that I hate the ship. It's just that over time, I find myself becoming really, really picky about the fanfic I read. I think a Rayne fanfic must be exceptionally written for it to be pulled off. And unfortunately in my experience, those are few and far between.

To be honest, the more I watch shows from the Jossverse, it's harder for me to read fanfic, because I've become a real stickler for canon. Not that every fanfic has to adhere to those terms, that would be horrible. It's just that there are certain lines characters would never cross in my mind, and it's very hard not to take the easy route when writing (which is exactly the reason I've never actually finished a fanfic for one of the shows).

Anyway, getting back to the topic (what was that again?). I think someone would have to be the fanfic equivalent of Superman (or Spiderman, I always liked Marvel better ) to make a Rayne fic work. But since I seem to be among that kind of company, maybe it's time I get off my lazy pigu and start reading again.

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"But I neeeeed tacos! I need them or I will explode! That happens to me sometimes."

LEIASKY

Thursday, August 30, 2007 3:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:

That's a 'no'. I know you aren't a fan of my work, but please, credit me with a little decency.

I actually don't have any idea what you write. :)If its Mal/ River I won't. Just doesn't interest me.

Your post did seem to indicate it was some odd pairing which is why I guessed Simon and River.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

NBZ

Thursday, August 30, 2007 9:13 PM

having read a little of SpaceANJL's fic, I will defend her. A little. Because it has so far not gone into romance and is still at sort of friendship where Mal is still pining over Inara.

I think I read through (and enjoyed) most of the first two tales before It "clicked" where it was heading.

She does have good characterisations, but I am wary where it will go. Especially as it is meant to at some point have Mal and River in a non-platonic relationship. Which could (would?) be all kinds of wrong.

Her original character I do not care too much for, but is better than most I have read, and does not seem to be a Mary Sue. (Like most I prefer mostly canon characters. Others take time to become memorable, and my reading style is to skip the details and get to the substance. "Who got shot?" "Why?" type of stuff mostly.)

So far spaceANJL has tread carefully. It is a shame that it will eventually lead to romance ,as I find their friendship much more intriguing. there is a peaceful acceptance of each other in the few moments you see them together in canon.

(I have not commented directly on the fic because of the dread-factor. I Don't want to be too encouraging even if it is really well written. Yes, I can be an ass.)

It is entirely believable for me to think River will have a crush on Mal, but it is the reciprocation where I fail to "see". For some reason this is less offensive to my tastes than Rayne. I have no idea why.

I am a sucker for good crew interaction. Especially Mal and River. I just don't believe in the reciprocal romance.

(If I was a writer, I would have River rely more and more on Mal and then pull the chain. Get rid of Mal. Why? because I don't think I can kill Simon - even though I generally dislike him in fanfic.)

As a balance, Rayne-wise I read through the stories by Kaynara (on this very site). Like most of her stuff till it went way too dark for me. (and IMO unrealistically too.) Apart from that Kaynara was a god author who took quite a few "brave" directions. (I will be honest that if I knew where it would go, I would have probably avoided it. but Rayne reered its fangs after I was hooked, so I did what I do with most pairing I am uncomfortable with. Assume those sections are not there.) A thing in (IMO) favour of Kaynara is that the romance was mostly a sub-plot. Not the main thing.

PS The romance still was not realistic IMO. and I did not care for the ending. It broke my first rule of fanfic (in spoiler tags to spare those who want to read the stories).

Select to view spoiler:

The first three rules are:
1. RIVER TAM MUST NOT DIE.
2. RIVER TAM MUST NOT DIE.
3. RIVER TAM ....

/See's the irony in a Rayne-hater pushing stories with Rayne.

EDIT - I eddited this post as I think it did not come out right the first time.

JETFLAIR

Friday, August 31, 2007 3:48 AM

I wouldn't go so far as to express hatred for any pairing, but there are many I strongly dislike. Foremost, River paired with *any* of Serenity's existing crew.

Someone asked me in a chat, if I *had* to pair River romantically with someone on the crew, who would it be? I chose Kaylee/River....but not because I thought they worked together, simply that as outlandishly farfetched as it was, it was a little less so than the others.

Frankly, the age difference squicks me. A lot. The physical and the mental/emotional ages.

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

www.serenityverse.com - Zoe necklace replicas, Serenity dogtags, jewelry, image gallery w/ custom DVD covers, other goodies!

SWEETESTHAT

Friday, August 31, 2007 5:41 AM

I read a bit of everything, fic-wise, whether pairings (almost any will do), non-romance adventure or humor. (Love the humor!)

And I've gotta say... I do like Rayne.

I like the contrasts: old/young, big/little, smart/"simple". I like the similarities: both killers, practical, the lovely bickering between them. As we see them in the series, it might not be all that logical, but who's to say they wouldn't have changed in the show's future to the point where a relationship might have worked? Joss's characters, unlike other shows, do have a tendency to grow and change. That's part of the fun.

Then again, I don't usually sweat canon too much in fics. Likely? Unlikely? Whatever. These are all flights of our own imagination anyway, so as long as the story's well-told and not too ridiculous, I'll give it a shot.

I like Rayne, Malnara (yes, I'm a hopeless romantic), Wash resurrection fics (eagerly awaiting the next Connecting Flight!), and humor, though I don't limit myself to those categories. Character death fics won't scare me off, but I do prefer to be warned first. Angst, darkfics, mushy or PWP-- usually depends on my mood at the time.

I'm not all that fond of River/Mal, to be honest; IMHO Mal would feel far too protective of River as both a member of his crew and a formerly defenseless woman (in the first few eps at least, definitely not post-Serenity) to easily start seeing her as a desirable female. But I will read M/R, sometimes. Not much into Tamcest (EWWWWWWWWW!) or femmeslash either. (I'll occasionally read maleslash, but I don't take it too seriously.) I'm not exactly fond of OCs either; unless VERY carefully handled they can so easily wind up Mary Sues. (Don't take it as a criticism of anyone here. It's more of a reflection of my few attempts at OCs in fanfic.) And huge multi-part stories can scare me away, as many never get finished... or I just drift away before they're done. If it's something really good though, I'll keep going. (What was the name of that 26-part Wash-lives fic? Sorry, I'm feeling too tired and sick to double-check now. It was fantastic though.)

But... to each their own. That's the fun of huge fanfic archives-- there's something for everyone. And once in a while, I find an idea I love that I never would have thought of myself...

(For the moment, it's off for some ice cream for my feverish head and my raw and aching throat, and then to bed for an early doctor's trip tomorrow. Summer colds suck. Hope this made sense, sorry if it didn't.)

one of the FORSAKEN: We aim to burn!

DANNIISUPERNOVA

Saturday, September 1, 2007 3:01 AM

I can take it or leave it. A really well written Rayne is okay by me. It doesn't squick me, but a lot of the time I just can't get into it. Don't know what it is. As in all pairing debates, I refer to my signature.

I do like Mal/River (depending on how it is written) but right this second I'm going to have to go with NBZ that it would be more interesting to see a platonic situation or a one-sided thing. More realistic ya know? And lately I've been very addicted to realism and only susceptable to bouts of fluff. (But fluff can happen in real life.)

_____

"You know that's gonna fall off."
-----Nathan Fillion (to me while drunk)

How are ships unlike food?
1. If you try it and don't like it, you don't have to do it again.
2. You can have as much as you want, when you want.
3. Cravings can be very specific.
I mean, hello it's not as if there's 'ship police?

RIVERFLAN

Monday, September 3, 2007 12:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHeroOfWilliamtown:
I don't see it that hard to imagine. I mean if you had to listen to the various thoughts of the crew all day hanging around with Jayne would be relaxing. He would probably like her because she can actually beat him up and that sets her apart from most girls i'd conjure.

Uh, why would that be relaxing? He's a crude man-ape-gone-wrong-thing. And Jayne doesn't like what he doesn't understand. I don't think he'd like hanging around with someone who could beat him up, either. Jayne likes his whores; he wouldn't want to be around someone who could whip his ass.

That's my view on that. I just can't abide Rayne. Or River/anybody. Or Jayne/anybody. That just doesn't make sense. And I don't think Joss ment for his wonderful creation to end up as a love-boat with a slightly different setting that other love-boats. Joss didn't do that in the show, or the movie, so why do you people assume that it would have happened?

Okay, rant is over.

"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

MOBBEX

Monday, September 3, 2007 1:13 AM

You are better at dying

Quote:
And I don't think Joss ment for his wonderful creation to end up as a love-boat with a slightly different setting that other love-boats. Joss didn't do that in the show, or the movie, so why do you people assume that it would have happened?

Thank god

! Do you mind if I use this quote in my sig?

PLATONIST

Tuesday, September 4, 2007 1:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:

That's my view on that. I just can't abide Rayne. Or River/anybody. Or Jayne/anybody. That just doesn't make sense. And I don't think Joss ment for his wonderful creation to end up as a love-boat with a slightly different setting that other love-boats. Joss didn't do that in the show, or the movie, so why do you people assume that it would have happened?

Okay, rant is over.

Bump!
Finally, someone says what we've all been thinking... kind of like Jayne

TINADOLL

Tuesday, September 4, 2007 4:00 PM

Well. A girl can dream.

Besides- who's to say what direction Joss was to head the stories in. He might have killed off Jayne in the second season- who knows (Perish the thought) but we didn't expect Wash dying did we? So lets not speculate that.

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, September 4, 2007 5:20 PM

I have to say that as much as I don't like Rayne and really don't like the Firefly love-boat scenario, I do appreciate that the point of fanfic is for people to make what they want of this lovely verse. The argument that Joss didn't intend for something to happen can actually be taken as the best reason to write it - ie, perhaps the only way fans can ever experience Rayne is through fanfic.

It seems like there should be a fantasy fic classification or something. I mean, like PWP has a clear purpose which has nothing to do with character arcs or themes or canon realism. In a way, romance/ship fics are similar - they (generally speaking) aren't out to explore the complex issues that Joss wove into the show. Romance fics are for purely fun escapism, and if they're not perfectly in character, so what? Really. Maybe some fan is having a bad week and wants a few minutes of imagining Jayne as a big cuddly teddy bear - what's *so* wrong with that?

I guess the only thing wrong, for me, is when the writer gets all righteous and demands that more people read and more people comment and no one ever critically question what they're doing...

OK, I've lost my point. Stopping now.

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

PLATONIST

Tuesday, September 4, 2007 11:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I have to say that as much as I don't like Rayne and really don't like the Firefly love-boat scenario, I do appreciate that the point of fanfic is for people to make what they want of this lovely verse. The argument that Joss didn't intend for something to happen can actually be taken as the best reason to write it - ie, perhaps the only way fans can ever experience Rayne is through fanfic.

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And, of course, I completely agree.

But, by the same argument, I had to defend his' or her's right to say otherwise.

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WYTCHCROFT

Tuesday, September 4, 2007 11:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

It seems like there should be a fantasy fic classification or something.

i don't know who maintains the board - but i firmly believe the blue sun room should be an AREA - with seperate rooms for types of stuff. i realise that a lot of writers don't like their work to be simply classified - we all admire whedon for his genre busting after all - but still... it would be useful for those with specific tastes (or a sudden whim) to be able to pic from FireFluff/FireFly/Ship/Slash and caboodal. ALSO and quite importantly - google searches could hit here more easily - attracting new folk to the verse - be it lovers of maverick, bonanza, sci-fi, again with the fluff, etc. even - deep sigh - scratches stubble with bazooka - rayne. gawd help us. I'm with RivenFlan on that one.

some kind of a furnace.

RIVERFLAN

Friday, September 7, 2007 10:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mobbex:
You are better at dying
Quote:
And I don't think Joss ment for his wonderful creation to end up as a love-boat with a slightly different setting that other love-boats. Joss didn't do that in the show, or the movie, so why do you people assume that it would have happened?

Thank god ! Do you mind if I use this quote in my sig?

Not at all, Mobbex. Go right ahead.

"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

Bwaa!

RIVERFLAN

Friday, September 7, 2007 10:20 PM

Thanks for the complement, if it was meant as a complement, Platonist. Though that description suprises me, seeing as all the people around me that have seen Firefly/Serenity describe me as Kaylee/River, or like River was pre-Acadamy.

Oh well. You learn something new every day.

And sorry if I don't have a reconizeable point- I tend to do that .

"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

Bwaa!

MOBBEX

Saturday, September 8, 2007 12:39 AM

Done! *cheers*

EDIT: yes, I like adding unreasonably large images to my sigs

I just can't abide Rayne. Or River/anybody. Or Jayne/anybody. That just doesn't make sense. And I don't think Joss ment for his wonderful creation to end up as a love-boat with a slightly different setting that other love-boats. Joss didn't do that in the show, or the movie, so why do you people assume that it would have happened? ----Riverflan

REAVERMAN

Monday, September 10, 2007 3:39 PM

I have no real problem with Rayne if the author can pull it off. Unfortunately, 99 percent of the time, they can't. At least not up to my standards (i'm picky like that). I've found that most fics featuring a River pairing just aren't very good. There are a couple Mal/River ones that I thought were decent, but they were the exception to the rule.

I generally like the really uncommon pairings like Mal/Kaylee, Mal/Zoe, or Wash/Anyone-but-Zoe mainly because of the novelty value, but also because there have been some good ones that i've read.

Also, I like Mal/Inara if it's still in that snarky pre-romance stage (otherwise, it's just not that interesting). For a really good story featuring (though not revolving around) really good snarky Mal/Inara, you should check out ScrewtheAlliance's story arc. His fics "Kaylee's Lament" (28 chapters), "The Treasure of Lei Fong Wu" (90 chapters), and "Unfinished Business" (in progress, currently 20 chapters) are horrendously long, but incredibly well written, with the most in-character, humorous portrayals of the BDHs I've seen outside the show and BDM.

[img] [/img]

"I refuse to submit,
To the god you say is kind.
I know what's right, and it is time,
It's time to fight, and free our minds!

Our spirits were forged in snow and ice,
To bend like steel forged over fire.
We were not made to bend like reed,
Or to turn the other cheek!"

- from the song "Thousand Years of Opression" by Amon Amarth

DANNIISUPERNOVA

Thursday, September 13, 2007 4:13 AM

I used to like Rayne (when i was a brand new, pink cheeked Browncoat) and had only seen the BDM. Now, I just don't see it at all. I read a few fics and while they were well written, they just didn't grab me. The only aspect of that pairing I would ever slag is the sometimes rudeness of the shippers. I mean, it's just fanfic.

I much prefer Jayne and River interaction that's just them being them. It never fails to crack me up. A lot of the time it's the same with Mal and River (but that's just because I haven't found a really good, believable Mal/River yet. )

And even more then that I like independant!River. Like a big story of her developing post BDM would be just delicious with no pairing or only hints of pairing.

_____

"You know that's gonna fall off."
-----Nathan Fillion (to me while drunk)

How are ships unlike food?
1. If you try it and don't like it, you don't have to do it again.
2. You can have as much as you want, when you want.
3. Cravings can be very specific.
I mean, hello it's not as if there's 'ship police?

PLATONIST

Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:04 PM

If you're looking for a fic that portrays River independant of "any ships" and empowered by her own potential try "Broken Wings" by Leiasky.

It is post Miranda and IMHO very close to Joss's vision for who and what this character is and what she will be capable of.

It is a sequel, but starts here:

http://fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=17638

RIVERFLAN

Saturday, September 15, 2007 9:25 PM

Mobbex: Would you mind too terribly if I stole your sig pic for my custom Avatar? That pic is really cool. I'd appreciate it .

"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

Bwaa!

MOBBEX

Sunday, September 16, 2007 4:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:
Mobbex: Would you mind too terribly if I stole your sig pic for my custom Avatar? That pic is really cool. I'd appreciate it .

Oh absolutely not! Go for it!

I just can't abide Rayne. Or River/anybody. Or Jayne/anybody. That just doesn't make sense. And I don't think Joss ment for his wonderful creation to end up as a love-boat with a slightly different setting that other love-boats. Joss didn't do that in the show, or the movie, so why do you people assume that it would have happened? ----Riverflan

RIVERFLAN

Tuesday, September 18, 2007 1:44 AM

Done! *cheers!*

Edit: Cool. All of my previous entries have gotten my new avatar! I didn't know that would happen.

Thanks!

"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

Bwaa!

MOBBEX

Tuesday, September 18, 2007 3:27 AM

Very cool indeed! May I ask how you did it?

RIVERFLAN

Wednesday, September 19, 2007 12:05 AM

First of all, I did this with Jasc Paint Shop Pro.

I copied your sig pic, croped River's face*, and resized it (50x50 pixels, I think).

Then I surfed the web for a leopard print pic, downloaded it, croped part of it and resized that (60x60 pixels) so the spots wouldn't get miniscule. That was my background.

Then I copied and pasted the River pic on the leopard print, and used the soften option on the retouch operation around the edges.

Voila! There you have it!

If you want more details, let me know. I'm just trying to keep it simplified for you non-geek type people

*Crop is when you cut out part of a pic, for those none-grapic-geek people

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Days to remember:
June 23- Browncoat Day!
Sept. 19- Talk Like A Pirate Day
Sept. 20- Captian Mal's birthday

"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

MOBBEX

Wednesday, September 19, 2007 12:42 AM

Pretty! Me, I'm more of a photoshop guy. For some reason it had never occured to me that I could use it to create shiny new avatars... Call it a brain blockage or whatever. I guess I ought to give it a shot!

I just can't abide Rayne. Or River/anybody. Or Jayne/anybody. That just doesn't make sense. And I don't think Joss ment for his wonderful creation to end up as a love-boat with a slightly different setting that other love-boats. Joss didn't do that in the show, or the movie, so why do you people assume that it would have happened? ----Riverflan

MOBBEX

Friday, September 21, 2007 6:32 AM

So I did give it a shot, and here's what came out of it. What do you think? I had a case of spookiness

EDIT: Did I mention I like big pictures?

EDIT#2: This avatar's too big though.

RIVERFLAN

Tuesday, September 25, 2007 12:56 AM

I like it! You are right, it's a bit too big, but surely you have a re-size option somewhere?

for no apparent reason

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Days to remember:
June 23- Browncoat Day!
Sept. 19- Talk Like A Pirate Day
Sept. 20- Captian Mal's birthday

"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

RIVERFLAN

Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:09 PM

I have a shiny new sig now! Made it myself, I did. If anyone want to know how, just say so and I'll tell

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My favorite quotes:

WYTCHCROFT

Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:26 PM

MOBBEX

Thursday, September 27, 2007 1:13 AM

I abso-friggin-lutely want to know how you did that!

RIVERFLAN

Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:48 PM

That's a really cool pic, Wytchcroft! You mind if I steal it?

Now to answer Mobbex's question:

Just so you know, I did this on Jasc Animation Shop and on Jasc Paint Shop Pro (they're cousin programs ).

First, I had to make the pics. So I took part of the background in this pic I found online (I mainly use Google Images)

croped it, and resized it so it was a nice, even number (because I'm weird like that). That forms the background.

Next, I took the Serenity logo, copied+pasted it onto the background as a seperate layer, and erased around the edges.

Then I saved that, then started filling in that empty space with my favorite quotes.

I saved them all, then copied+pasted them into frames in a new animation shop file. Then I added a "fade" transition to each and every frame, and adjusted the amout of time you see certain frames so you could read the longer quotes.

Then I saved the whole animation, added it to my Photobucket account so it would show up.

Took me a while, but I finally got it done

I'd show more example pics, but I deleted them all, and I wouldn't get them exactly right the second time.

Why I didn't make a slideshow is because they only let you have ten pics, and I had 27 quotes

BTW, how did this thread get diverted from rayne to grapics? Just wondering (and if it's my fault, blame it on one of my other selves! lol )

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My favorite quotes:

MOBBEX

Friday, September 28, 2007 4:05 AM

Probably my fault to be truthful. I started it all with my sig request

I wonder if there's an Adobe equivalent to Jasc Animation Shop. I'm gonna go and do some research on that. Thx for the detailed reply !

WYTCHCROFT

Friday, September 28, 2007 9:54 PM

use all the pic's i send ya!:)

RIVERFLAN

Friday, September 28, 2007 11:50 PM

You do that, Mobbex. I hope you find one

And you're welcome. Not a problem to fill in some of my shiny browncoat friends

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My favorite quotes:

CRYSTALKEI

Tuesday, October 9, 2007 4:12 PM

a fab person (elidyce) wrote a little essay over at LJ about why river/jayne could work...check it out here: " http://community.livejournal.com/rayne_shippers/909582.html?view=67289
74#t6728974

Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly

PDCHARLES

Wednesday, October 10, 2007 8:18 PM

Jayne's gettin' a LoveBot. EOS

Anyone know if that has been done in a fic?

Him with the instruction manual, bot malfunctions, etc. Think it would be funny.

ROMANCEGURU

Wednesday, October 10, 2007 8:44 PM

Quote:
Jayne's gettin' a LoveBot. EOS

Anyone know if that has been done in a fic?

Him with the instruction manual, bot malfunctions, etc. Think it would be funny.

OMG, that would be hilarious. Write it!!!

RIVERFLAN

Thursday, October 11, 2007 12:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:

Quote:
Jayne's gettin' a LoveBot. EOS

Anyone know if that has been done in a fic?

Him with the instruction manual, bot malfunctions, etc. Think it would be funny.

OMG, that would be hilarious. Write it!!!

Yes, absolutely!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Remember to vote!
http://www.richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~
My favorite quotes:

PDCHARLES

Thursday, October 11, 2007 6:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:
Quote:
Originally posted by Romanceguru:

Quote:
Jayne's gettin' a LoveBot. EOS

Anyone know if that has been done in a fic?

Him with the instruction manual, bot malfunctions, etc. Think it would be funny.

OMG, that would be hilarious. Write it!!!

Yes, absolutely!

Feel free to have at it. Not much of a writer here. I'm more of the graphically inclined type.

ROMANCEGURU

Thursday, October 11, 2007 6:50 PM

Quote:
Feel free to have at it. Not much of a writer here. I'm more of the graphically inclined type.

I’ll mull the idea over (definitely would want to do this one justice!) and I’ll credit you if anything comes of it. : )

If anyone else is struck with sudden inspiration, go on ahead.

GYPSY15

Friday, October 12, 2007 12:49 PM

I am glad someone is bringing this pairing into the light of day. I don't read a lot of fanfic but I enjoy the Firefly universe and it's talented fic writers! I find pairing Jayne and River disturbing and not feasible in the current Firefly verse. River is a traumatized child despite her survival skills and violent tendencies. Jayne is an adult male, many years her senior and has lived the life of a mercenary and who knows what else. Jayne is also a morally conscious man. His interactions with Book prove that, although he doesn't always live up to his beliefs, he believes nonetheless. It seems out of character for him to encourage any romantic relationship with a girl as young as River! For him and the rest of the crew, that would be akin to child molestation or taking advantage of someone who cannot legally be responsible for themselves. I skip over all Rayne centered fanfic or any fanfic that even hints toward a Rayne relationship. I know that it probably has a lot to with having kids of my own and being in the over 35 age range. It's too scary for me to read. I love my Jayne and I like his inner moral conflicts because of how he feels about his new "family" on Serenity. I don't think Jayne would initiate or encourage anything with River for fear of losing his family there and without a doubt, being thrown out of an airlock by Mal, Simon, Zoe et al. River needs Jayne and the adults in her life to protect her and encourage her healing. I know that doesn't sound romantic but in the current Firefly verse, that's how the characters were developed so far. I hope a sequel or a continuation of the series brings potential for more age appropriate romantic pairings!

ALBIO

Tuesday, October 30, 2007 11:18 PM

i think badkarma00 made a believable rayne. it took him getting blown up to finally admit he liked her

as for the crazy girl needing time ya I would wait a few years after bdm for rayne. But i have a lot of confidence in river given time she could control her power Jayne likes power. They tend to spend long stints in the black Jayne would need a women. And they do say theirs a thin line between love and hate. Plus really few man wouldn't run for the hills after getting all the information on riv.

personally id like to see more rayne were river uses some mental muscle on Jayne to get him into bed. or its a con to help out their family and Jaynes left wanting but not getting any
but I'm evil, evil man

STEAMER

Sunday, June 14, 2009 4:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dmaanlileiltt:
Why Rayne...when it can pour?

Well, not really, but why are there so many stories that involve River and Jayne getting together?! I'm trying to understand people's fascination with putting those two as a couple.

Is it a case of "If you ain't with the one you love, love the one you're with" or is there some kind of deep psychological meaning behind putting a psychic teenager with a late-thirties/early-forties mercenary?

I can kinda see that it's sorta funny to put somone who can hear all of a person's thoughts with someone whose thoughts no one would want to hear. But seriously....WHY?!

Quote:
Originally posted by Steamer:
I've been asking myself the same question for years. I think it's just because they're the only two on the ship who aren't already paired, which, to me, makes it even more ridiculous. Personally, I despise Rayne. In fact, I can't even read a lot of fanfic because so much of it either is Rayne or turns out to be. Just thinking about it makes me sick, especially since there's so much more to fandom than who's sleeping with whom, and since Jayne is more than twice River's age and there's canonically nothing between them but animosity. How the hell do you fall in love with someone who repeatedly schemes to kill, maim, or otherwise remove you from his space and doesn't even apologise?

Quote:
Originally posted by AngelintheBlack:
I dont much understand why there is so much Rayne if your looking at it from that view.

Some of the stories do follow that "Love the one your with" scenario, while others play with her "reading" his mind and not being opposed to what she sees, and the yet others play with the "every one else has someone and this was the one that was left."

I think the reason for there being so much Rayne is, theres no real need to add a new main character. They can play with the cannon pairings (Mal/ Inara, Simon/Kaylee, Zoe/Wash) and just make a logical leap and make Jayne and River a couple. That leaves them fewer options but if thats what they want to run with thats up to them.
I much prefer the stories where the writes introduce new characters that may or may not be a romantic relation for river or any other character. It gives more possibilities to play with and more chance for a plot to become truely developed and stantch its reader.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jane0904:
I write Rayne. Not only Rayne, but as part of my Maya series. And the truth is, I didn't intend to. When I started writing fanfic, I thought the idea of the merc and the assassin was ridiculous, and resolved never to write anything like that.

But it crept up on me. In my developing world, I had them start out becoming friends-ish. After all, River is the ultimate human weapon, and if nothing else Jayne appreciates a good gun. In the end I let it happen slowly, naturally, with a lot of obstacles, not least of which was Simon shooting Jayne because he thought he'd slept with his sister.

I have to say that people who automatically discount a story just because of a particular pairing might be missing out on something good. Bad writing is one thing, but give a decent tale a shot - you never know, you might enjoy it.

And as for age ... so?

Quote:
Originally posted by WakeupSoon:
Personally, I don't like pure Rayne stories. If its something that happened over the course of time, seemingly naturally, and in the background of another story I don't mind it. But if a story is pure Rayne *shudder* s'not my thing ..

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I'm with Steamer. In the "everyone-must-be-paired" approach to fanfiction, River and Jayne MUST be a couple. No matter that the canon characters have to be completely altered to make it happen in any kind of believable way.

Also, I think there's often a Mary Sue-ness to the pairing. Writer/readers who identify with River and crush on Jayne can use a River Sue to act out their fantasy relationship. "Girl Tames Wild Man and F

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