Unpopular Opinions

POSTED BY: Lexan
UPDATED: Monday, August 3, 2026 22:05
VIEWED: 62004
PAGE 2 of 3

I'm not gonna go into my choice of pairins, purely becase i can't be arsed to defend them but i will share the one thing I reckon would have happened had Serenity continued-or even after the movie.

I think Kaylee would have become bored by Simon.

I think after the movie it would have been all sex and fun but i just think it would have fizzelled out. I also think Kaylee would have been the one to end the relationship.

But, going by the series, I'm not so sure. I waver both ways. I think she may have got bored with chasing him, or rather making advances and having him accidently reject them. Or she would have found a new interest.

I do sometimes wonder if Tracey hadn't be killed, if he'd stayed on as crew, would he and Kaylee have become a couple.

simon is my favourite character and he and Kaylee were really cute together at the end of Serenity but I can't help thinking they'd both have needed something else from it.

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I don't like Jayne.

There. I've said it.

I know other folk love him to pieces, and I know why other folk love him to pieces, but I don't.

I also think River is at least mostly sane since the end of the BDM. Mayhaps she still ain't 100%, but she's a lot better than she was and I think there's potential for her to get better yet, right set of circumstances permitting.

You'd think a compression coil had blown with all the flames that have shot through this thread already, so let me remind all hands, gently but firmly, that just because we're expressing our unpopular opinions doesn't mean they're open to trashing. That ain't the point. Dong le ma?



If not for my
Zoe passion
I'd take you in
A manly fashion
FIREFLY

Captain of the New England Browncoats

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I like Jayne as a character, but I don't really like Jayne. He a good character, but if he were a real person I wouldn't want to be anywhere near him.

(Only flames I threw was when I felt personally insulted. I wouldn't take my opinions about the show being attacked as a personal attack; it's just a way of viewing a show. Yeah, I adore the show, and if anyone said it was a terrible show I would be a little ticked, but seeing things a different way while agreeing that it's a really good show is different.)


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by annuette:
I think Kaylee would have become bored by Simon.

I think after the movie it would have been all sex and fun but i just think it would have fizzelled out. I also think Kaylee would have been the one to end the relationship.

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I can totally see that! She's got such a crush, and sees Simon as all kinds of shiny because he's a fancy Core doctor... but what if she went past that, got to really know him, and saw that he's just a human being?

Such potential there - and poor Simon, if it came to that! Hero worship collapse can turn into a sad thing...

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Just a thought, for all those folk that didn't like the River fight scene in Serenity, and that it made her SuperGirl or something. Isn't that precisely what the Alliance did to River? Make her a super badass fighting machine? I thought that was kind of the whole point of all that they put her through, to make her a ... well, SuperGirl. To me, from the prespective of the storyline, it made sense.

I love Jayne as a character, he is quite amusing, but I agree that in person I probably wouldn't trust him. I also agree with a previous poster that he is most likely loyal to Mal.

I liked Wash a whole lot more than Simon. Simon was smart and noble and those were great, but from a fan's perspective, Wash was a great deal more entertaining and fun to watch.

I am new here, but that's my 2c worth, thanks.

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I'll be in my bunk ...

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SunLitLaz:
Just a thought, for all those folk that didn't like the River fight scene in Serenity, and that it made her SuperGirl or something. Isn't that precisely what the Alliance did to River? Make her a super badass fighting machine?

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Not only that, but don't forget that she can read minds. I think that's key - she doesn't need muscle mass or hard blows. She knows what her opponent is doing, and can use that against them. Could be quite effective...

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Exactly! *grins* Well i'm glad i'm not the only one. :)

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One more unpopular opinion.

I think it was an utterly stupid move to have Inara flee from Serenity to... a training house? It just doesn't make sense to me when I really think about it. She's leaving Serenity because her feeling of attachment toward the crew, and Mal in particular, are interferring with her work, so she runs to a place where... she doesn't work at all? Really? I really hope that was just a convenience for the movie (both story-wise - it was easier to get things moving this way, and because having a practicing whore might have messed with the rating), and not something that would have been in the show, had it continued.

Arcadia (aka Greyfable and/or Katie)
www.stillflying.net -- picking up Firefly were Joss left off. We will hold 'til he gets back.

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Delurking to reply to two ideas:

First, I agree with Orpheus that the movie was too funny. I actually arrived a little bit late to this party and saw the movie before the series. Although on a personal level I didn't have any trouble with the amount of humor because I was so wrapped up in the fast-paced story, I know people who took the number of jokes as a signal that they weren't supposed to take the film too seriously, and I expect they weren't the only ones. Then, when the film got very serious, some first-time viewers may have been confused and lost their suspension of disbelief. Joss says in the commentary that he removed the "fake grenade" scene because it made the Alliance look bumbling, but I wish he had applied that same line of thought more consistently. The "do you want to run this ship...well, you can't" moment, while very funny, lends itself more to sci-fi parody than anything else.

Second, Annuette mentioned Tracey/Kaylee, and I think that that kind of arc would've had a whole lot more than an episode's worth of material. Simon is not outwardly affectionate, and when Kaylee is presented with someone who is, she gravitates toward him. Kaylee would have to decide if Simon's attractive qualities outweighed his reserved personality, and Simon would have to figure out if he was willing to try to change himself for her. It's a shame the show didn't have the chance to do three or four episodes with Tracey as a crew member and love interest before killing him off.

Lastly, not sure how popular or unpopular this idea is with anyone, but I think the show is a little too Western. Before I saw the series, my one confusion/complaint about the film was basically, "What's the deal with all the Western stuff?" It makes a bit more sense in the context of the series, but even then, I could've done with less.

A

Edit to fix a typo.

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As far as the "western" aspect was concerned, what I liked about it was the play off of the American Civil War (I am a reenactor and just like it). I liked the old speech patterns and the stoicism. I like the amazing collection of classic firearms they showed (likely culled from the property room of many old movies).

I didn't like it when it went from that to the "Dime Western" motif. I think the time period could be similar, not the same.

My Humble Opinion

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I liked the juxtaposition of having an actual Western in space. Star Trek said space was the final frontier. Firefly showed it.


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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One More Thing ;-) I very much liked the character of Kaylee. She reminds me so much of an old girl friend (save the hair color which was auburn) I had my first year of college that I was deeply lost in remember when.

The young lady of my past would have been happy with me dropping out of college and living a carefree life, maybe working on a ranch or in a restuarant. I was a "Computer Geek" in the day when there weren't many and had visions of changing the world.

Watching her and Simon was very real to me. We eventually went our separate ways, though we are still in touch. She had a bunch of kids, three husbands and is now this really cool young gramma.

PS. No, none of them are mine ;-)

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Quote:

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Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I liked the juxtaposition of having an actual Western in space. Star Trek said space was the final frontier. Firefly showed it.

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Precisely, well said! I loved the two worlds coming together!

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Originally posted by Starrbaby:
I also *don't* want Mal and Inara to get together . . .ever. The tension between them is too awsome to break. I think if the series continued, and Mal and Inara got thier acts together, that would have been the equivalant of jumping the shark. It would have been down hill ever since.

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I agree, I think that Mal and Inara wouldn't have gotten together. I also don't think that Simon and Kaylee should have really gotten together at the end of the movie. His akwardness and her touchyness was just to awsome for me to see them together, with him saying the right things.

Also, I don't think that anyone else on the ship would have gotten married, or have kids. I could have seen Wash and Zoe maybe having kids, but really, having all of the other characters getting together and married, with kids, (which I've seen in many fics) is just to sappy for me. I seriously doubt that those people would find true love, or whatever you want to call it. It's far to predictable, and very un-Joss.

-------------------------
http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">
You're pretty much down to ritual suicide, Lambie toes.

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Originally posted by Lambytoes:
I don't think that anyone else on the ship would have gotten married, or have kids. I could have seen Wash and Zoe maybe having kids, but really, having all of the other characters getting together and married, with kids, (which I've seen in many fics) is just to sappy for me. I seriously doubt that those people would find true love, or whatever you want to call it. It's far to predictable, and very un-Joss.

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I agree. I've voiced my annoyance with the sappy, happy, domestic bliss fic writing more than once.

(This site won't display pngs, BTW, and you only need the URL on the boards; the avatar is the only place you need the HTML code.)


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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Something I haven't seen mentioned yet: The hologram headstones (or whatever their official designation) in the BDM. I think it's because I - like many others - lived through the last 5 schmaltzed-up minutes of Return of the Jedi...but whatever the reason, the mugging images of our "corpsified" friends just kinda rubbed my rhubarb...

It was like that when we got here!

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My unpopular opinion?

"Well if she don't give us some extra flow from the engine room to offset the burnthrough..."

And a few other Alan Tudyk lines (from the series too) were "read" rather than "acted".

Ability-wise, Nathan Fillion and Adam Baldwin are brilliant. Probably the best of the bunch, and a whole lot of other actors.

Morena Played Inara really well IMO. To the comments that she lacked some emotional investment - that is a part of the character. I call it the porcelain doll.

River and Simon's roles were really hard, but well played by Summer Glau and Sean Maher. Gina Torres played a good Zoe. Book was also top notch.

That just leaves Alan Tudyk in a few places... and I know how everyone just loves him.

/hides.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I liked the juxtaposition of having an actual Western in space. Star Trek said space was the final frontier. Firefly showed it.

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I know the reason for doing it. Most of the time, I just didn't particularly care for it.

A

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I disliked Book. He annoyed me. I was glad when he died, although I wished he wouldn't have had so much time to give a final sermon before croaking. At some point I was kind of hoping Mal would just strangle him so that he'd stop talking.

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Questions are a burden to others. Answers are prison for oneself.

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Originally posted by RiverDancer:
Christ Almighty, I didn't realize how many browncoats were not only completely superficial, but slaves to media ideals. This is disappointing as hell.

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No kidding.

I don't care about money. I care about personality. I'll throw in a quote from "The Last Dancer" by Daniel Keys Moran tomorrow.

Unpopular opinions?

The music in Serenity was so much better than in Firefly.

------------------------------------------
RPG launcher bought in third world country illegally - $10
Landmines - $50 per
Attack/track dogs bred 1st class - $250-500 per
Highpowered assault rifles - $600 per
The look on your face when I show up on your doorstep with a bigfoot - ... Priceless

"You gotta love that the first pirated HD DVD is the one about space pirates who broadcast a video that the government wants to keep secret.

Can't stop the signal."
-reavers_ate_my_dvd

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Originally posted by mal4prez:
BTW #2 - 6string, you have such potential, and then you go on these rants that, I'm sorry to say, make you sound like such an ass. Man - don't do that! I'm so close to thinking you're really cool. Quit getting in the way! (Should I put a kissy emoticon thingy here or a knife in the head? Ah hell - you decide what my tone is.)

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Thanks for saying so mal4prez. I must say, with the exception of "you have such potential" & "you're really cool", I think the part of your post directed at me would be more appropriate in the "Popular Opinions" thread.

It was pretty rocky there..... really rocky there for awhile... but me and PR are cool again.

Hey PR.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Lots here I want to respond to, although I'm not sure if I've time (although I may come back and try) so first off I just want to ask if anyone else is really interested in finding out Riverdancer's opinion of them?

Quote:

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Originally posted by Orpheus:
My unpopular opinion? You really want it? Alright...

My unpopular opinion: The BDM has too many jokes. It's too funny. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the humor (most of it anyway), but the first half of the film feels like they're trying to shoehorn as much of the show's humor as possible. From the time we meet Mal to the moment Simon starts arguing with him, it's quip-joke-quip-quip-turbulence-gag-joke-Simon. It's always felt like too much to me. I get that Joss had to draw in newcomers and satiate fans at the same time, but I think he overdid the humor.

As much as I hate to say it, the movie doesn't really become "Serenity" to me until Book shuffles loose the mortal coil. Until then, it was just "Firefly: The Movie".

Start the thrashing now.

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Might just be me, but I tend to find that stressful situations bring out the best (or frequently worst, as I do enjoy making people laugh at inappropriate things) in my sense of humour. The characters were in high-stress from the get-go, Might be that this is a perfectly in character and reasonable reaction, because I know I'm not the only person on the planet (and imagine I won't have been the only person, 500 years down the line) who gets that way.

Quote:

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

Quote:

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Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
And some smile, flirt, and say "Hey, I'm really liking you a lot."

What's so hard about that?

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Step into a guys shoes for a little while and you'll have your answer.

What does a man have to do to walk into a room and have every woman in the place want to be with him? He's got to be rich and powerful or influential and definately have a lot of money.

What does a woman have to do to walk into a room and have every man in the room want to be with her? I don't know..... her hair?

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Ignoring all that comes after, I just wanted to throw you another POV Jack. Speaking for myself, it's weird little things that attract me to a woman, being smart, funny, good looking, well maybe, but more likely it'll be maybe how the light catches in their eyes, or if they take the piss out of me when I am other people, and other stupid things. It's a bit, well, picky, and I wouldn't want to be the body trying to come against it.

Quote:

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Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I love Heart of Gold.
I kind of love it for maybe unpopular reasons, though.
Actually, another unpopular opinion I might have is that Inara bugs the hell out of me. I never bought the chemistry between Mal and Inara, for one thing, but even if I did I don't like the way they interact. They both act like spineless, brainless juvenilles in the context of their 'relationship', even more so than Simon and Kaylee, who are younger than them! It's irritating as hell, really. And I think the way their relationship would have played out over five or seven years would have been equally irritating. They would have eventually stopped dancing around, said "oh yeah, we really do have something" been completely blissed out for about a week, and then it would all fall apart because Mal would get pissy about Inara's job again, and it would get even more stupid. She would probably leave again, Mal would get all cranky at everyone and act like a sulky, angry teenager, and it all would have been just ridiculous.
Neither of them are teenagers!
But they both act like it in relation to each other, and sometimes that spills over and affects other people!
It's annoying!
I understand that some people find teen angst to be dramatic and entertaining, but I'm not one of them, esspecially when the teen angst is coming from a 20-something and a 30-something. Seriously.

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I dunno, Mal for one is pretty emotionally damaged, I mean the guy is all kinds of screwed up, ju

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Yep, all good. Hi, Jack

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Originally posted by Oddsbodskins:
here you go getting me into their nobbly little fictional heads >.< )

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w00t!


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Oddsbodskins:
anyone else really interested in finding out Riverdancer's opinion of them?

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You are? O_O

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Glad to please Rose xD

And sure Riverdancer, who doesn't like to hear a relatively unbiased opinion of themselves from time to time?

I'd reply to more bits of the unpopular opinions, but my arms hurt >.< Don't drink, carrying beer and your shopping for a mile home hurts

They may think their sins are original, but for the most part they are petty and repetitive.

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Firefly should have had more actors who were actually Chinese. It was really a missed opportunity for a cult-popular sci-fi show to have East Asians as main or supporting characters.

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Originally posted by PkDecatur:
Firefly should have had more actors who were actually Chinese. It was really a missed opportunity for a cult-popular sci-fi show to have East Asians as main or supporting characters.

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I agreee with that, and always have entertained the idea that, had the show gone further, this would have happened.

I do have my own little grievances with one character or another that people would find unpopular but these greivances bcome strengths when I look at not the characters induvidually, but the crew as a whole.

The Reaver fight in Serenity. I loved the fluid movments of the fighting and thought River was spectacular, but (and there always is, is there not?) two things bug me. One: One of the reavers is dressed like Han Solo. My hand to God, I swear this to be true. You look closly at those reavers, and you will see him too. Two: (and more importantly) The reavers who are not fighting River while mostly concealed by shadows and lighting, stand around like ninjas in a bad kung fu movie, waiting for thier turn to get thier ass kicked. I try to tell myself that they are reconsidering the situation (after all, how often do they encounter this kind of resistance from a slip of a girl?) but I have a hard time convincing myself of that.

Okay, that was more of a general complaint than an opinion, so lets try this. Jayne is a PRICK, an a**hole, and I feel people give him way more reverence then he deserves. He is cool, but not good, certainly not noble, and if I met him in the real world I shoot first or be running the other way. When I see an fanfic that turns Jayne into some sort of noble, caring person for the crew, it bugs me on a special level.

-------------------------------------------------
All good things must come to an end.

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Originally posted by Jigman:
One of the reavers is dressed like Han Solo. My hand to God, I swear this to be true. You look closly at those reavers, and you will see him too.

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I've gone straight through the screenshots of the fight, starting here: http://www.leavemethewhite.com/caps/displayimage.php?album=73&pos=2361 (even lightened a few so I could see more detail) and I'm not seeing it. Can you point me in the right direction?
(By the way, that astonishing grace River has in motion looks very odd in freeze-frame)

Quote:

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The reavers who are not fighting River while mostly concealed by shadows and lighting, stand around like ninjas in a bad kung fu movie, waiting for thier turn to get their ass kicked.

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I don't think that's true. She's taking on more than one at a time, she's just fast as hell. Several rush her at once and get cut down, which I kinda liked. It's like a wolf pack going after something with a couple blades and lightning fast reflexes; they fail.


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
A troll's hair is still pointy, even when it's wearing a hat.

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This is less of an unpopular opinion and more of a medical fact: that VOMITING (River in the BDM) somehow magically erases years of brain damaging psychosis and makes you better.

I know, I know it's another one of Joss' quickie problem solving metaphors.

Vomiting maybe a cure for a nasty hangover, but it obviously doesn't work for River because she goes helpless again, in the following scene, with the Reavers.

And NOW, as suggested at the end of the BDM, she's flying through space as the frackin co-pilot ready to solve the woos of the 'verse. Or wait, that's only in poorly written fanfics.

Overall, I found this progression of empowerment (you go girl, because it's YOUR TURN!) even harder to believe than the ridiculous Reaver fight.

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I never "got" that River was "cured" at that point until I read some fanfiction.

The way I saw it was that River was an oddball. She got triggered with some actions and memories. She went worse.

Now that she has got to the bottom of her memories, she is better. "Better" as in returning to that oddball phase, NOT "better" as in reversing brain damage.

I don't think she would be a lone pilot for a long long time. Maybe ever.

Secondly, she would not be automatically promoted into taking part in violence and jobs. There is the issue of control.

A further unpopular opinion is Joss lost some of his confidence and went back to some age old means. "Super Buffy mode" being one of them. (and no, I do not buy that argument about empowerment.)

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Originally posted by nbz:
A further unpopular opinion is Joss lost some of his confidence and went back to some age old means. "Super Buffy mode" being one of them. (and no, I do not buy that argument about empowerment.)

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Ain't that the truth. Joss hesitantly admits to this in the movie commentary. I think some of his executives may have voiced the same opinion that fell on his deaf ears. Like... huh, Joss these scenes look way to familiar... ala Buffy verse.

We exit the Firefly door, and re-enter via the Buffy backyard slider. He doesn't accomplish anything by empowering her this way except to confirm (what he doesn't ironically want us to see) that River and the BDHs are existing in two different movies. It is just simply illogical, from a critical viewpoint.

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I don't agree with that at all. Just because Joss made the movie feature a small girl doing the physically impossible, which by the way was entirely relevant, does not mean he was going back Buffy familiarity. The scenes don't particuarly resemble Buffy... River doesn't resemble Buffy. The fighting and that wasn't about empowerment, it was about River and what was pertinent to her story... Think about it...

Also, an opinion that seems to be quite unpopular- River, in terms of personality and character was better in the series. She had so many dimensions and layers. If there was such a thing as a one million+ dimensional character, River would be it. Serenity River was also great but I felt as though some layers weren't present and her dialogue wasn't as brilliant. It tended not to have as much meaning.

I also find River as the pilot at the end of the film very believable and appropriate and a nice call-back to "Objects in Space".

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Lexan:
If there was such a thing as a one million+ dimensional character, River would be it.

And that's the best argument why a wider viewing audience did NOT receive River’s character well as a main character, in the BDM. They didn't know what to make of her.

She's too indefinable, almost alien (Joss' description) Viewers couldn't relate to her on a human level because she became too omnipotent. She's instantly reading minds. Does telepathy even work that fast? She's warning Mal, Zoe, and Jayne on the heist. She's kicking ass in the Maidenhead. If someone died shouldn't she be held accountable? Oh, that's right she was triggered, because we all succumb to subliminal behavioral messages . Heck, I want a cheeseburger right now.

She's witty and clever too. She looks for patterns in sand and tries to count the tiny pieces, but can only do it if you drive slower. God, I was so glad they cut that! Jayne's "bad guy" line is way cooler!

And then suddenly she's asleep (unfortunately about the same time my Grande Cadillac Margarita buzz was wearing off) and now she's chained, and crying, screaming, and suicidal (If no one else steps up, I'll volunteer to carry the bullet)

And then she escapes, convinces Mal, shares her awful thoughts, good characters die along the way (ones we really like), and she screams some more. She fights hundreds of horrible flesh eating Reavers, by herself, without receiving a scratch. Not one of them thought to put a bullet to her like they did her brother? Hey, What happened to the poison dart guy? Is he not that skilled?

And then we get to the end...she's not cured, but better, and is Serenity's new co-pilot, because ya know, she's a ship too. HUH??

And the only question anyone asks at this point is: Do you think Mal and Inara have a chance?

Unpopular opinions, oh yeah

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You speak the truth; The majority of the audience doesn't understand River much at all. This is why I think Joss simplified her character a little for the movie. However, when Joss is really going by what he believes the story needs, (I assume) he doesn't take what the audience will understand into much consideration. Nevertheless, he might have for this movie. Clearly it wasn't enough for some people but it was enough for me to notice there was something missing. This was the only problem I had Serenity.

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I don't think that anyone else on the ship would have gotten married, or have kids. I could have seen Wash and Zoe maybe having kids, but really, having all of the other characters getting together and married, with kids, (which I've seen in many fics) is just to sappy for me. I seriously doubt that those people would find true love, or whatever you want to call it. It's far to predictable, and very un-Joss.

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Well I didn't think I had that many unpopular opinions when it came to Firefly, but after reading this thread then maybe I do.

I personally think it would have been GREAT if Zoe had got pregnant. I agree that it would be nigh on impossible to raise a kid in that environment and that is exactly why I think it would have made for such good TV. This is the only time we see Zoe express an opinion that wasn't complete common sense. Makes her more falible. I could see her going behind Wash's back and getting pregnant when he was against the idea (yet more tension). I would have enjoyed her struggles with the decision of whether to leave the ship or let someone else raise the kid, or even how she would have coped with loosing it.

Does all this make me a very bad and cruel person?! Face it, anguish makes for gripping storylines! Pile it on, I say!

___________________
Hissssssssss!

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stumbled into the arms of this strange and outrageous thread...

my most often held (but i sometimes drop it) unpopular opinion is that Simon MAY not have told (or allowed us to see) the truth about what happened to River - and why she's in a fracking box!

i sometimes believe he was complicit in her 'going to the academy'

and that he was lying about the brain scan in ariel...

none of which necessarily lessons his very real love for river - it just adds guilt to the mix...

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Originally posted by annuette:
I think Kaylee would have become bored by Simon.

I think after the movie it would have been all sex and fun but i just think it would have fizzelled out.

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well i agree completely except for the fun part!

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I also think Kaylee would have been the one to end the relationship.

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Simon wouldn't know how!
Simon has way too much invested in River for the relationship with Kaylee to work long term...



and now to quote my favourite robot Bender - "cheese it!"

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Thanks for bumping this, Wytchcroft. Unfortunately, I am one of those people who gets involved in a fandom (doesn't matter which one) and suddenly finds out that all his/her opinions are considered very unpopular. For example:

The music in Serenity is more moving than the Firefly music. Firefly music is atmospheric, and occasionally gorgeous. Serenity music gets to the soul of the story as well as keeping to the tone.

None of the "popular" continuity errors in the BDM were actually continuity errors.

Simon never said he wasn't personally involved in the rescue, and he was not] badass in it...he was reserved in personality, and managed to pull a needle out of River's head, open a window, and climb on a little platform, looking very conspicuous all the while. He was more badass when jumping off a catwalk onto Dobson or jumping on Early with a thigh wound. Punching Mal was a result of desperation and character development, not character switch.

Mal has never been good with dates, so his "eight months" quote is entirely within character. Mal is not suddenly not considering Simon and River as not-quite-crew because the plot demands it, it's just that things have gotten really tough and he's giving a lot of bark to Simon 'cause he can't bring himself to actually give them up, because in his heart, as he shows in the BDM, they really are part of his family now, as he said in the series. It's all talk with Mal.

River is not any better by the end of the BDM...she's still a schizophrenic, just a slightly less traumatized one who knows her abilities.

Simon and Kaylee would not live happily ever after, nor would their relationship fizz out. They both seem to have enough maturity that eventually, after a long and frustrating semi-courtship, would lead them together, because Kaylee values the respect and devotion Simon shows to her, and Simon values the brightness and affection that Kaylee shows to him. Simon only messes up under stress, and once the first kiss is out of the way, he'll put his foot in his mouth much less. (Objects in Space, anyone?) Once Kaylee starts hearing more of relaxed Simon, she'll be able to take his occasional messups much better. I've seen many marriages work with even more imperfect and downright clashing people, so there's got to be hope for Simon and Kaylee.

I don't like Mal. At all. I see his good side, but it just doesn't work for me. He's often more clueless than Simon, and reacts violently and illogically to most circumstances.

Inara is best when she's dealing with Simon and Kaylee and River...every other encounter, I wonder why people like her.

I didn't mind that Wash died. He was funny and interesting, but not that much.

I don't like Our Mrs. Reynolds or Out of Gas. They are well written, from a purely stylistic point of view, but I don't enjoy them.

Safe and Objects in Space, on the other hand, never fail to really move me and ring true.

I don't see River and Jayne getting together as a romantic couple, but I heartily support them having a relationship on par with Mal and Zoe's. I don't think Jayne or River could have a healthy romantic relationship with anyone at all, actually.

My ideal sequel to Serenity has Simon and Zoe dying, with Kaylee and Inara dying in the last movie of the trilogy. There's a lot more to my opinion on sequels than that and why I think it would be ideal, but that's an idea for another thread.

Inara and Book were deadweight on the show...they could have been more, but they never were.

The Train Job has painfully pathetic dialogue, and I hesitate to include it as canon sometimes.

The Message should be considered the last episode...it's the only way the series makes sense character-development-wise.

Jayne's interesting in the series and movie, but 95% of fics make him too soft and therefore not interesting anymore. Likewise most fics make Simon either too wussy/dumb/inarticulate or too articulate and...perfect.

Neither Simon nor Kaylee nor Wash need to learn how to fight. There's a place in the world for noncombata

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Thanks for bumping this thread.
I didn't know it was unpopular, but I don't consider River to be insane. Because of her vast IQ, few of us or the cast should be able to fully understand her. When she focuses her language talents upon us normals, then she can generally convey the point she wants, like when she talks to Badger in Shindig. Otherwise she doesn't speak untruths, other than that Book's hair thing in Jaynestown.

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Originally posted by redhead:
Oooh everyone is so brave! Do you all feel better for getting that off your chests? (Strokes chin thoughtfully)

Seriously though, I couldn't stand the River and the Reaver scene in Serenity. She's drug backwards through the doorway by her feet. I'm a black belt and with that many (20 something?) Reavers there is no way she gets up. AND then the Damn door opens while she is standing there (looking very cool, I'll give you that). AND who the heck opened the door? It's only supposed to open from the outside and River's hands are full. What she does Telekinesis, too?

My vote is River should have died! And don't get me wrong, I think Summer is an awesome actress and I loved the fragile girl coming to life in the series but I loved the series BECAUSE it was about people. I didn't want Super girl.

There I have Jayne to protect me (or at least one of the Ninja Turtles) so no one can flame me too bad!

---

I never thought I would live to see the day I would agree with anyone who dares diss Firefly/Serenity. But, in earnest, I have to agree with you on the River-Reaver scene. It weren't exactly my thing, either. Too action figure like. Out of character, really; and done for marketing reasons, no doubt, so they could stick her on that Serenity poster as the bad-ass killer girl. Ugh. Dressed her up like a gorram doll!


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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I sort of agree...I liked the scene the first time I saw it, just because of the emotional impact I felt when I saw her taken by the Reavers. I did like her fight scene. But they held it just a little too long, and she was just a little too posed.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Originally posted by MerryK:

The music in Serenity is more moving than the Firefly music. Firefly music is atmospheric, and occasionally gorgeous. Serenity music gets to the soul of the story as well as keeping to the tone.

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Applause

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Originally posted by MerryK:

None of the "popular" continuity errors in the BDM were actually continuity errors.

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Yep.

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Originally posted by MerryK:

Mal has never been good with dates, so his "eight months" quote is entirely within character. Mal is not suddenly not considering Simon and River as not-quite-crew because the plot demands it, it's just that things have gotten really tough and he's giving a lot of bark to Simon 'cause he can't bring himself to actually give them up, because in his heart, as he shows in the BDM, they really are part of his family now, as he said in the series. It's all talk with Mal.

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I don't believe that it's all talk. I always saw that as the natural result of him and Simon butting heads without Inara there to distract him from it.

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Originally posted by MerryK:

River is not any better by the end of the BDM...she's still a schizophrenic, just a slightly less traumatized one who knows her abilities.

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Simply remembering something would not cure her.

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Originally posted by MerryK:

Simon and Kaylee would not live happily ever after, nor would their relationship fizz out. They both seem to have enough maturity that eventually, after a long and frustrating semi-courtship, would lead them together, because Kaylee values the respect and devotion Simon shows to her, and Simon values the brightness and affection that Kaylee shows to him. Simon only messes up under stress, and once the first kiss is out of the way, he'll put his foot in his mouth much less. (Objects in Space, anyone?) Once Kaylee starts hearing more of relaxed Simon, she'll be able to take his occasional messups much better. I've seen many marriages work with even more imperfect and downright clashing people, so there's got to be hope for Simon and Kaylee.

---

Battin' a thousand.

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Originally posted by MerryK:

I don't like Mal. At all. I see his good side, but it just doesn't work for me. He's often more clueless than Simon, and reacts violently and illogically to most circumstances.

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Well, every streak has to end sometime:)

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Originally posted by MerryK:

I don't like Our Mrs. Reynolds or Out of Gas. They are well written, from a purely stylistic point of view, but I don't enjoy them.

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Out of Gas is my favorite episode of the show.

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Originally posted by MerryK:

I don't see River and Jayne getting together as a romantic couple, but I heartily support them having a relationship on par with Mal and Zoe's. I don't think Jayne or River could have a healthy romantic relationship with anyone at all, actually.

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After Serenity, this became the definite path for these two. The Merc and his wacky pal the Pyscho - hours of fun right there:)

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Originally posted by MerryK:

Neither Simon nor Kaylee nor Wash need to learn how to fight. There's a place in the world for noncombatants, a much bigger place than for soliders, and I don't see why most Browncoats seem to think that Simon at least needs to kill. He's more scary with his non lethal tactics, IMO.

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Fun little fact - it takes roughly nine people in non-combat jobs to keep one US combat troop going. That's as efficient as the Marine Corps has managed, and we do more with less better than anybody.

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Originally posted by MerryK:

Mr. Universe is totally someone the Firefly crew would know.

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Let's see - illegal super hacker, has own spaceport, and why bother to continue? Yeah, they'd know the guy.

Now for my contribution to the unpopular opinions:

Joss is over-rated. He's great at universe/character creating, and jokes, but the day to day stuff needs to be done

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After Serenity, this became the definite path for these two. The Merc and his wacky pal the Pyscho - hours of fun right there:)

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LOL! Yes, that strikes home to me...I can't see it any other way.

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Fun little fact - it takes roughly nine people in non-combat jobs to keep one US combat troop going. That's as efficient as the Marine Corps has managed, and we do more with less better than anybody.

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I agree...and also found it rather amusing/frustrating that in a fairly PC show (what with the feminism and corrupt government), we still had macho men as the heroes.

Nice to know I'm not entirely alone in all my opinions, Jarhead. :-)

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Originally posted by MerryK:

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I agree...and also found it rather amusing/frustrating that in a fairly PC show (what with the feminism and corrupt government), we still had macho men as the heroes.

Nice to know I'm not entirely alone in all my opinions, Jarhead. :-)

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Not entirely alone, no. As to the macho hero-type men the only thing I can say to that is that particular storytelling device still delivers on the crowd pleasing front, hence the reliance on it.

Oh and Our Mrs. Reyonds was fun, but not more than that. Trash was by far a better episode on all counts, especially at the end when Inara locked Saffron in the waste bin and delivered the prize, just as her and Mal had planned.



I’m never serious. Serious means something bad is about to happen.

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

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To the guy that said Joss is over-rated, I agree with you. Yes, he's great at creating characters and universes and jokes, but at the same time he does have flaws as a writer. While I like the strong female slant that's in his work, at times it gets really preachy. Women are strong and don't need men to take care of them. We get it, move on. We don't need feminist rhetoric every third line of the script. And with every father character more villainous or perceived villanous than all the monsters the Hellmouth spits out put together, it's obvious he's airing his psychological laundry out to dry, which is not appealing at all. Scripts aren't supposed to be therapy sessions. And if you are an atheist and don't believe in God, then why do you reference gods and heaven and hell dimensions in BUFFY and ANGEL. Plus, killing off characters is something that should be done sparingly. I look at THE SOPRANOS as a fine example of show that knows how to kill off characters. The way Joss does it in killing off popular characters and keeping around annoying ones is a little hackish.

But I've never considered the "day to day life" angle until now, and you're right. I think the closest thing Joss has done in terms of reality, in terms of actual people in real life that isn't surrounded by demons and spaceships is the two episodes of THE OFFICE he's directed, and that's more to do with the great team that Greg Daniels has put together. And while Joss did a great job with "Business School" and hopefully "Branch Wars" next week, I think he'd go into aniphalactic shock if he had to do something outside the sci-fi/fantasy/comic book genre. He's not like, say, Alan Ball, whose SIX FEET UNDER basically took "The Body" and stretched it out over five seasons and is a show I can personally identify with more than anything Joss has done.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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My ((an)other) unpopular opinion: I don't see Jayne and River getting along. Ever.

Yes, Rayne is totally out of the window for me, but I can not see any future "brotherly", "comradely" or any other (positive) connections either. They all feel *very* out of character to me.

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Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
YesIthinkKayleeisocasionallyirritatingandwhinyandkindofahornyschoolgirltypewhowouldgoafteranymanprettyandintriguingenough
andthatJewelhadwaymoreoffdaysthantherestofthecastwhichmadethewhinyworseandthecharacterlessbelievable

Don't hurt me

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No one's hurting folk today, on account of unpopular words being on-topic here. :)

I wanna say something about the whole "kindofahornyschoolgirltype" thingy, though, because I feel Kaylee's character is often misunderstood in that regard. *goes to dig up an older post*

I've seen folks shocked when they first learnt of Bester's "Prairie Harpie". But I say Kaylee is the near epitome of a psychologically healthy person. When it comes to sexuality, she's got no noticable hang-ups of any kind; she's neither uptight about it, nor overly obsessed with it: she neither fears the flesh, nor allows it to devour her. Sexuality just naturally flows from her innocence, rather than from anything else.

Kaylee is fairly open about sex, too ("Have good sex!"). Not because she's loose, but because she sees no harm in the mention of it (again attesting to her innocence). To her, sex is a not the harmful, creepifying elephant in the room that needs careful tiptoeing around. Kaylee has managed to integrate sexuality to a rarely attained level of normalcy.




--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Quote:

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Originally posted by MerryK:
I agree...and also found it rather amusing/frustrating that in a fairly PC show (what with the feminism and corrupt government), we still had macho men as the heroes.

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Except the time Zoe saved Tracy's ass. And the time that Zoe went back into Niska's skyplex to save Mal. Not to mention that it always Zoe that Mal takes on jobs (instead of, say, Wash or Simon) because she's a better fighter than the two of them put together. Come now. Macho men as the heroes? The main hero may be Mal, but that doesn't mean that all the men are tough-as-nails and all the women are shrinking violets. Heck, Wash frequently jokes about his lack of involvement in combat ("I was going to watch. It was very exciting."). I think that the badass-ness goes according to character in this one, not by gender. Else Zoe's one damn fine looking man!

________________________________________________________________________

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Originally posted by asarian:
I wanna say something about the whole "kindofahornyschoolgirltype" thingy, though, because I feel Kaylee's character is often misunderstood in that regard. *goes to dig up an older post*

I've seen folks shocked when they first learnt of Bester's "Prairie Harpie". But I say Kaylee is the near epitome of a psychologically healthy person. When it comes to sexuality, she's got no noticable hang-ups of any kind; she's neither uptight about it, nor overly obsessed with it: she neither fears the flesh, nor allows it to devour her. Sexuality just naturally flows from her innocence, rather than from anything else.

Kaylee is fairly open about sex, too ("Have good sex!"). Not because she's loose, but because she sees no harm in the mention of it (again attesting to her innocence). To her, sex is a not the harmful, creepifying elephant in the room that needs careful tiptoeing around. Kaylee has managed to integrate sexuality to a rarely attained level of normalcy.

---

I agree with all of this and I think her character is a counter poise to Inara. Although Inara's job entails her having sex with clients and therefore by definition you'd think that she'd be the one with no hang ups about sex... uh uh, it's the opposite. She's very schooled and disciplined because she's been trained, but IMHO Inara isn't sure this is really what she wants to be doing.

While Kaylee delights in life and sex and most things. Purely. No hesitation or hang ups on her part.



http://amazon.com/Serenity-Collectors-Nathan-Fillion/dp/B000Q9IZ5C

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Originally posted by Causal:
Except the time Zoe saved Tracy's ass. And the time that Zoe went back into Niska's skyplex to save Mal. Not to mention that it always Zoe that Mal takes on jobs (instead of, say, Wash or Simon) because she's a better fighter than the two of them put together. Come now. Macho men as the heroes? The main hero may be Mal, but that doesn't mean that all the men are tough-as-nails and all the women are shrinking violets. Heck, Wash frequently jokes about his lack of involvement in combat ("I was going to watch. It was very exciting."). I think that the badass-ness goes according to character in this one, not by gender. Else Zoe's one damn fine looking man!

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Well spoken! And LMAO!



http://amazon.com/Serenity-Collectors-Nathan-Fillion/dp/B000Q9IZ5C

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I don't disagree with any particular point, Causal...you misunderstood me. Joss has said that Firefly is Mal's show—he is the one that is portrayed as the most heroic, the one we should be admiring and caring about. We can like the other characters as well, but it is Mal whom the focus is almost always on. In fact, most scenes are played so that we are supposed to sympathize with him, even when if you look at it logically he is being quite ridiculous. And Mal is macho. The non macho men are poked fun at quite regularly for their peacefulness, through Joss in self-deprecating humor or by the other characters. Jayne is occasionally made fun of because he jumps at any opportunity to fight, and sometimes Inara or Zoe pokes fun at Mal's impulsiveness/recklessness, but the tone is always more in favor of a little recklessness rather than avoiding conflict. All the characters are portrayed in a more admirable light when they pick up arms, whether in lighting, framing, or music.

And your point about Zoe? Just adds to my point...why do we look up to her more than Kaylee, who has equal if not more talents, but in a peaceful area? Because Zoe is a soldier, and that is who the show portrays as admirable. That is what I object to, the constant glorification of war and combat. When will we get our non-combatant hero?

Oh, and I never said that the women were shrinking violets...when I said macho men, I was comparing Mal to Wash and Simon, not the women at all. "Macho people as heroes" would have been a more accurate representation of my opinion.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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That is what I object to, the constant glorification of war and combat. When will we get our non-combatant hero?

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I think his name was Jean-Luc Picard... you know, he was on that tedious show where the ship's counsellor seemed to be the second ranking officer and where they couldn't keep a good evil adversary going for more than a couple of stories without kissing and making up. (There was a different character of the same name in some of the movies who was more of a kick-ass kinda guy).

(p.s. remember the thread title!)

The other candidate is The Doctor (from Doctor Who? but he's not actually called Doctor Who blah de blah...) who travels the universe armed with a screwdriver (a "sonic" one, too, not even a real one that you could hurt someone with). He does have his little lapses, though and is often the cause of violence in other people...

But mostly, war and combat - especially when they happen in a galaxy far, far away - make for more exciting shows. Just as long we're all sophisticated enough to understand that what makes good fantasy doesn't always make good real life.

However, I do think someone should write the imaginary novel The Dead Starship Teachers' Society - set in Heinlein's Starship Troopers universe this tells the story of a man who decides to earn the right to vote by serving as a schoolteacher (one of the options that somehow got missed out of the parody version in the film) and tries to help a class of meathead cadets bound for the mobile infantry get in touch with their sensitive side by introducing them to 20th century feminist Science Fiction.

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Originally posted by asarian:
Too action figure like. Out of character, really; and done for marketing reasons, no doubt, so they could stick her on that Serenity poster as the bad-ass killer girl.

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Worse - it made the movie poster scream BUFFY IN SPACE!!! thus potentially alienating a potential chunk of the audience who (gasp!) didn't actually like Buffy...

The poster even makes her face look more like Buffy (or perhaps Faith) than River...

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Originally posted by MerryK:
And Mal is macho.

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You say that as if there's something wrong with that. You would perhaps prefer if Mal were more feminine?

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The non macho men are poked fun at quite regularly for their peacefulness, through Joss in self-deprecating humor or by the other characters.

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To the contrary, Wash is held up as a vitally important member of the crew because of his flying ability, which gets them out of more than one scrape (beginning of Train Job, for instance). And in the pilot, both Wash, Kaylee, and Book are made the heroes for their piloting and mechanical skills, respectively--while Jayne is made to look the fool precisely because he has no non-combat skills. Inara is often looked to for her "diplomatic" ability and we admire Book precisely because of his non-violence, rather than because of it.

Quote:

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Jayne is occasionally made fun of because he jumps at any opportunity to fight, and sometimes Inara or Zoe pokes fun at Mal's impulsiveness/recklessness, but the tone is always more in favor of a little recklessness rather than avoiding conflict. All the characters are portrayed in a more admirable light when they pick up arms, whether in lighting, framing, or music. And your point about Zoe? Just adds to my point...why do we look up to her more than Kaylee, who has equal if not more talents, but in a peaceful area? Because Zoe is a soldier, and that is who the show portrays as admirable. That is what I object to, the constant glorification of war and combat. When will we get our non-combatant hero?

---

Wash, saving the day by outflying the Reavers, and Kaylee by rigging up the engines for a Crazy Ivan.

Simon for his constant, no-matter-what care of River.

Inara for more-than-once smoothing things over or getting the crew out of a jam (e.g. rescuing Mal and Zoe--your tough warrior types--when they get pinched by the sheriff in Train Job).

Book, a hero (in my mind) for his refusal to allow Jayne to summarily execute Dobson.

Let's not forget that River tricked Early, instead of whomping his ass in OiS.

Is that enough non-violent heroics? If not, I guess I could mention Simon's willingness to burn at the stake with his sister.

And as far as the only moments of heroic cinematography, let's not forget Kaylee's grand entrance to the ball on Persephone in Shindig. She's even a step above Mal in the frame, attention clearly on her in all her feminine glory, and she gets an absolutely gorgeous musical cue. And then it's Mal that goes and ruins everything by being violent (and Kaylee says as much).

And does not the show portray Inara as admirable? That scene in the pilot (the infamous sponge-bathing scene) portrays her not as weak and ineffectual but as sensuous and beautiful (and, I suppose, powerful in her own way).

Quote:

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Oh, and I never said that the women were shrinking violets...when I said macho men, I was comparing Mal to Wash and Simon, not the women at all. "Macho people as heroes" would have been a more accurate representation of my opinion.

---

And yet the non-"macho" people get to plenty of great, heroic stuff (as enumerated above). Is there gun-play and fisticuffs aplenty in Firefly? You bet! It is, after all, Mal's show, and that's more or less the world he inhabits. But there's also lots of tender moments, too, times when people are held up for admiration for other-than-violent acts. To my mind, Out of Gas is the best example of this. Only really one violent scene (if I recall correctly) and Mal's on the receiving end. And what's held up as admirable consistently throughout the episode is the familial bond between the crew. We admire Mal not for his proficiency in battle, but for his care for the crew and his determination to fix his boat. We admire Wash for rigging up the emergency button and for his boosting the distress call through the nav signal. We sympathize we Kaylee in her inability to fix her girl.

Forgive me if I

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Quote:

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Originally posted by ImNotHere:
However, I do think someone should write the imaginary novel The Dead Starship Teachers' Society - set in Heinlein's Starship Troopers universe this tells the story of a man who decides to earn the right to vote by serving as a schoolteacher...and tries to help a class of meathead cadets bound for the mobile infantry get in touch with their sensitive side by introducing them to 20th century feminist Science Fiction.

---

Heh.

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+1 Totally agree with Causal.

We have had plenty of lobotomised scifi in the past.

All the BDH play important roles. And it is forgotten where Mal has been the butt of a few jokes too for his macho-ness. (HoG - immediately thinking it is him people want to get help from. Jaynestown - Mal is not the Hero. See the Inara and Fezz scene.)

On the other hand if he was one of those who took his time to consider all angles, he would probably not got to the series.

I can understand the dislike of both OMR and OoG if Mal is not to the liking of the viewer - both episodes are about him. I absolutely loved OoG, and to a lesser extent OMR.

One thing that does surprise me though is that "Bushwacked" is statistically the least favourite episode among people. I personally rank it very highly.

(For bottom rung I would have a fight out between The Train Job and Heart of Gold. I think Hog would go on the bottom rung.)

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It does come down to interpretation, and what you want to see, probably. I'm always looking for noncombatants as the main character, or most admirable, and didn't find that in Firefly. Yes, others are held as admirable, though I disagree that we like Book because he is peaceful...his "best" parts, or so I can tell from most of the fans I hear from, are the "fuzzy on kneecaps" type ones. Yes, we respect the others for their noncombatant skills...but not as much as we are supposed to respect Mal. Perhaps you can explain why, if noncombatants are held as just as honorable as combatants, we root for Mal and not Simon? Look at how small, comparatively, the Simon fangroup is compared to Mal's, or Wash's compared to Jayne's. Though there is a little balance, it's still the "manly" men who are painted as the most heroic. Mal is the typical macho hero: handsome, strong, stubborn, and a good shot. He gets to punch people and shoot without question and kick enemies into engines...and we're supposed to think that's ok. You bringing up Picard proves that most people think peaceful people can't be interesting or effective. I think that's a fault with television and writers, not the genre or real life.

But hey, this is the unpopular opinions thread, and I guess that thinking that Firefly glorifies the macho is unpopular.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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I don't think we are supposed to "respect" Mal. It is not that type of show to me.

The thing that can be respected about Mal is that he is a jack in a box - no matter how hard you knock him down, he will always bounce back. hence the torture he always has to go through just to get a glass of milk.

(I think Joss has gathered a lot of sadist fans and thrown them all on this one character.)

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Quote:

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Originally posted by nbz:
Mal is a jack in a box - no matter how hard you knock him down, he will always bounce back. hence the torture he always has to go through just to get a glass of milk.

---

LOL!:)

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My unpopular opinion: I like the BDM as much as I like Objects In Space.
There, I said it.


*shields up* Chrisisall

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Originally posted by psychotic:
Is Heart of Gold really that unpopular? Mal/Inara is my favorite ship in the series and seeing the tension between them is awesome. There's so much that they say to each other without saying words.

And you gotta love the baby dummy that Rance carried. Priceless!

---

...And finding out "who the baby-dummy daddy is"

was important ! HoG and War Stories both have

some flaws , but they were still Firefly , and

they're still better than 99.95% of everything

else in series television...


I love the BDM...if you understand how

difficult Joss' job was , he delivered as great

a film as could have been made ; from script to

screen , it's a very distilled and nuanced

reflection of the Firefly series...We're

privileged and fortunate to have it...

YMMV , of

course...

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Quote:

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Originally posted by nbz:


All the BDH play important roles. And it is forgotten where Mal has been the butt of a few jokes too for his macho-ness. (HoG - immediately thinking it is him people want to get help from.

One thing that does surprise me though is that "Bushwacked" is statistically the least favourite episode among people. I personally rank it very highly.

(For bottom rung I would have a fight out between The Train Job and Heart of Gold. I think Hog would go on the bottom rung.)

---

...We agree on most everything , except I like

The Train Job...Not as much as I like

Bushwhacked , because if forced to choose , I

might select it as favorite single-episode...

Favorite 'double-episode' is the original

pilot 'Serenity'...Always freezes grins to my

face...I like Bushwhacked because it's

atmospheric and spooky , and delivers a classic

scene that shows River's not as 'wack' as most

folk believe..."It's a ghost."

Subtle , understated , and perfectly rendered

by Miss Glau..

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Here's my unpopular opinion (although not entirely Firefly related)

I don't like Chuck.

I've tried, I've watched every episode. It's failed to make me care about any of the stories.

My idea for improvent is to center completely around Adam Baldwin's character. Or if they fastforward 500 years into the future and it takes place on a spaceship.

Now as for Firefly: I like the show and movie seperately but together they make very little sense to me--Especially Mal. In the begining of the BDM when he pretty much told Simon that he was not part of the crew, it seemed out of character.



Thank Universal for airing Firefly in HD at
http://universalhd.com/Firefly/

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Quote:

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Originally posted by out2theblack:

... and delivers a classic scene that shows River's not as 'wack' as most folk believe..."It's a ghost."

Subtle , understated , and perfectly rendered

by Miss Glau..

---

'Cept that she says: "It's ghosts."


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Quote:

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Originally posted by asarian:

Quote:

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Originally posted by out2theblack:

... and delivers a classic scene that shows River's not as 'wack' as most folk believe..."It's a ghost."

Subtle , understated , and perfectly rendered

by Miss Glau..

---

'Cept that she says: "It's ghosts."


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." --
Simon Tam

---

Never could be exactly sure on that point myself-

If you're talking about how it looks on the

captions , I've found that they're filled with

errors , so I don't accept them as final

authority...And then , I defer to context for a

best guesstimate...To me , it makes more sense

for the River character to be referring to the

derelict *ship* , you know , the classic 'ghost

ship'-type that's been found adrift for

almost as long as there've been mariners , or

science-fiction...That's a classic riff that's

been done in Star Trek , the Aliens franchise ,

Lost In Space ; pretty much the entire gamut .

All the other folk aboard Serenity had rendered

their individual opinions , and were continuing

to speculate about the nature of the other ship

and what led to her demise...Right ? Their

basic question was 'What IS It ?'... And as

always , River is a step ahead with an

answer...What seems to the viewer a minor

answer to their question ; but then ,

later , River also becomes the device for the

further revelation...About the time Mal is

drawing a mental conclusion , and speaks of

it , "I know what did this" , River is already

staring at the ceiling...And the tension

becomes amped-up yet more when Mal apparently

fears River could go monkey-sh!+ on account of

just being there and seeing that...A fact which

Joss eventually uses in the BDM...I find the

'River/Ghost' scene to be so ambiguous as to

make me wonder if there was some purposeful

mis-direction employed to make the spoken-word

indecisive...Which would serve to further

heighten the mystery...

Does anyone have a shooting script ?...I'd like

to see Summer's copy , and Joss's , too , for

the notations...Might be a good Con-panel

question , if anyone wants to carry it to a

Trekkie-anal decision...

Ever notice when Jayne contacts the Alliance-Fed

in 'Ariel' , and the dude's face comes up on the

viewscreen , the audio says , "Ni Hao" , but the

officer clearly mouths the more lengthy , "Ni

Hao Ma" , although the 'Ma' isn't heard on the

soundtrack ?

I wondered how that happened , too...

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Of course, the final authority on what it was meant to be ("It's a ghost" vs. "It's ghosts") would be the script... AFK ...which just says "Ghosts." But of course, only Summer knows what she actually said in filming which is the final final authority (yes, there are two finals).

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I'm not sure if this is considered unpopular, but...

I hate The Message.

Cannot stand it. I never watch it out of my own free will, only when I have no choice.
I have no idea why I hate it, I just do.

Only one good thing about it, "The Funeral". A masterful piece of compostion.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Causal:
Of course, the final authority on what it was meant to be ("It's a ghost" vs. "It's ghosts") would be the script... AFK ...which just says "Ghosts." But of course, only Summer knows what she actually said in filming which is the final final authority (yes, there are two finals).

---

I don't disagree...But I wonder if Summer

remembers after all this time...It's a great

question , and I'll probably ask her someday ,

if I don't have a brain-freeze...

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Firefly jump the shark when Serenity killed Shepherd and Wash

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I am posting this here because I imagine it will be an unpopular opinion, but I would like to join a community of fans to support this verse, but I don't want to be a "Browncoat" Does anybody else want to form an organization of Republic Troops?

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Quote:

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Originally posted by blackbeanie:
I'm not sure if this is considered unpopular, but...

I hate The Message.

Cannot stand it. I never watch it out of my own free will, only when I have no choice.
I have no idea why I hate it, I just do.

Only one good thing about it, "The Funeral". A masterful piece of compostion.

---

---

Maybe you only hate the episode because it's the only one which Joss acts in. I like it, though.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Arcadia:
One more unpopular opinion.

I think it was an utterly stupid move to have Inara flee from Serenity to... a training house? It just doesn't make sense to me when I really think about it. She's leaving Serenity because her feeling of attachment toward the crew, and Mal in particular, are interferring with her work, so she runs to a place where... she doesn't work at all? Really? I really hope that was just a convenience for the movie (both story-wise - it was easier to get things moving this way, and because having a practicing whore might have messed with the rating), and not something that would have been in the show, had it continued.

Arcadia (aka Greyfable and/or Katie)
www.stillflying.net -- picking up Firefly were Joss left off. We will hold 'til he gets back.

---

Excellent point, Arcadia!!

That always bugged me. It seems entirely counter-intuitive and sevres no purpose other than to show Inara to be pining for Mal - "saving herself for him" or some such thing, which is neither in character for her nor does it fit the situation


Commence my unpopular opinion:

1) Deciding to leave the ship was the healthiest, smartest thing Inara did in a long time. Mal said he respected her, but he didn't and staying would have been nothing but self-torture, no matter how much leaving breaks Mal's heart. He just wasn't ready to let her be herself, and she knew it.

2) She and Mal will never get to gether until he accepts her job. And by accept I don't mean "You WERE a whore, but I love you anyway." but "I love you even though you are a practicing Companion."

And I think he would have done it, during the series. That would have been the entire point of their relationship: teaching Mal what unconditional love really means.

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i'm not knocking your opinions - this aint the thread - but i'm not sure i folllow...

if Inara left Serenity where would she go - in the short term? Sihnon is her home.

What's wrong with teaching what she practices??? - check the cut scene on the dvd...

and teaching allows you to step back and refresh your own skills - Inara hasn't 'worked' in a while.

The calming atmosphere of Sihnon is not a place to pine but to catch her bearings - and have the Companion side of herself recognised for a change - she has authority there.

I could go on - i can see quite a massive list of reasons why Sihnon would do.. And there's nothing much to say she isn't working from there out into verse gaining clients etc...

keep flyin:)

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Quote:

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Originally posted by wytchcroft:
i'm not knocking your opinions - this aint the thread - but i'm not sure i folllow...

if Inara left Serenity where would she go - in the short term? Sihnon is her home.

What's wrong with teaching what she practices - check the cut scene on the dvd??? teaching allows you to step and refresh your own skills - Inara hasn't 'worked' in a while.

The calming atmosphere of Sihnon is not a place to pine but to catch her bearings - and have the Companion side of herself recognised for a change - she has authority there.

I could go on - i can see quite a massive list of reasons why Sihnon would do.. And there's nothing much to say she isn't working from there out into verse gaining clients etc...

keep flyin:)

---

She wasn't on Sihnon, though!! It was a little backwater Training House. If you watch the deleted scenes, it comes through in how she talks about the girls. That's not Sihnon standard, certainly.

And the problem with teaching what she practices is that she is not practicing. Her job that means so much to her, the main point of contention between her and Mal... suddenly set aside for teaching? After she left because Serenity holds her in ties?

That smacks of pining. There is very little that gets me up in arms like people interpreting this move as "She couldn't sleep with other men anymore, not after she realized what Mal meant to her!" because it's... wrong. Bad. Not Inara and kind of women-oppressing, really, considering Mal had no problem sleeping with someone else knowing he loves her, so.. what's the point of suddenly putting Inara in a chaste teaching position, really?

If she is leaving to protect her independence, why return to an entirely different kind of committment? Why change everything, after all? She didn't need a refresher course, since she worked all the time on Serenity.

She could have gone anywhere, really. And worked there. The movie put her in a Training House for the sake of convenience. It neglected a lot of things about her character for the sake of convenience, but this one bugs me the most because it takes away the greatest point of conflict between Mal and Inara and replaces it with "Mal has trouble admitting his feelings" which is just wrong, as he was about to tell her right there in "Heart of Gold".

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Yeah, that sounds about right. When you're at a sci-fi convention or the forums, it would be OK to say you're a Browncoat because these people would know about Firefly. But I imagine if you were to tell a WW2 vet or a Holocaust survivor that you're a Browncoat, you might get some dissaproving looks and maybe even get spat at in the face and "Hitler Youth"'s thrown at you.

It's interesting how in the show Joss uses some political terms and subverts them. Thus "Browncoats" means the good guys and "Alliance" is EVIL, even though the Alliance in WW2 were the good guys.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Add me to the list of those who feel that The Messenger's plotline falls apart at the point where where no one on Serenity's crew takes the time to explain their plan to Tracy.

Lovely ending sequence, though.

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Shindig is one of my least favorite episodes. It seems that a lot of people really like that episode, but I could never get into it that much.

----------------
"Do not fear me. Ours is a peaceful race, and we must live in harmony."

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Quote:

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Originally posted by wytchcroft:
i'm not knocking your opinions - this aint the thread - but i'm not sure i folllow...

if Inara left Serenity where would she go - in the short term? Sihnon is her home.

What's wrong with teaching what she practices - check the cut scene on the dvd??? teaching allows you to step and refresh your own skills - Inara hasn't 'worked' in a while.

The calming atmosphere of Sihnon is not a place to pine but to catch her bearings - and have the Companion side of herself recognised for a change - she has authority there.

I could go on - i can see quite a massive list of reasons why Sihnon would do.. And there's nothing much to say she isn't working from there out into verse gaining clients etc...

keep flyin:)

---

She wasn't on Sihnon, though!! It was a little backwater Training House. If you watch the deleted scenes, it comes through in how she talks about the girls. That's not Sihnon standard, certainly.

And the problem with teaching what she practices is that she is not practicing. Her job that means so much to her, the main point of contention between her and Mal... suddenly set aside for teaching? After she left because Serenity holds her in ties?

That smacks of pining. There is very little that gets me up in arms like people interpreting this move as "She couldn't sleep with other men anymore, not after she realized what Mal meant to her!" because it's... wrong. Bad. Not Inara and kind of women-oppressing, really, considering Mal had no problem sleeping with someone else knowing he loves her, so.. what's the point of suddenly putting Inara in a chaste teaching position, really?

If she is leaving to protect her independence, why return to an entirely different kind of committment? Why change everything, after all? She didn't need a refresher course, since she worked all the time on Serenity.

She could have gone anywhere, really. And worked there. The movie put her in a Training House for the sake of convenience. It neglected a lot of things about her character for the sake of convenience, but this one bugs me the most because it takes away the greatest point of conflict between Mal and Inara and replaces it with "Mal has trouble admitting his feelings" which is just wrong, as he was about to tell her right there in "Heart of Gold".

---

y'know this is a great reply!!
partly becoz although i don't necessarily agree - you make well argued and valid points , i'm forced to think again here - and you could well be RIGHT!:)

my head can accomodate both sets of possibilities...
since there aint much in there already - ha ha!

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There's no doubt an obvious change in Inara's portrayal from the series to the BDM. She starts bawling midway through HOG and continues to be misty eyed until the wave she sends to Serenity in the movie. It's always bugged me to no end.

I think Joss's attempt at showing her to have inner conflict about her love of family (and Mal) and her chosen lifestyle falls flat and she does come off as nothing more than a teacher, in love, pining away for Mal.

I've come to understand it as Joss running out of time.
He created all these interesting complications, which were suppose to take the run of the series to deconstruct and explore, and wrote them away when he reduced their dialog to a few chosen lines and looks that the viewers are left concluding, "Oh! I get it! They're, in love, but they aren't good at talking about their feelings."

It is clearly a simplification of their issues and since Joss has artistic license he can change and manipulate the characters as he sees fit to meet his writing objectives, which became: Inara being a Companion (she was a whore, what is there to get?) is just not as important as Mal's arc and River's secret to be devulged.

And if there is a sequel (fingers cross), I doubt very much we will see any Companioning taking place, except Inara following Mal around like a lost kitty and Mal hopelessly trying to show her how much he cares, because we all know, he still won't be able to talk about his feeling for her until at least the third act.

OK, rant over...but more... and why do I care? The Inara in the series was one of my favorite characters and
I hated her being reduced to nothing more than Mal's left behind lost love. But, I understand and deal with it just like Wash's unneccesary death.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Commence my unpopular opinion:

1) Deciding to leave the ship was the healthiest, smartest thing Inara did in a long time. Mal said he respected her, but he didn't and staying would have been nothing but self-torture, no matter how much leaving breaks Mal's heart. He just wasn't ready to let her be herself, and she knew it.

2) She and Mal will never get to gether until he accepts her job. And by accept I don't mean "You WERE a whore, but I love you anyway." but "I love you even though you are a practicing Companion."

And I think he would have done it, during the series. That would have been the entire point of their relationship: teaching Mal what unconditional love really means.

---

Commence my unpopular rebuttle:

Mal respects Inara; honestly, he does. :) I was gonna say: "He respects Inara, but not her profession." Glad I didn't, though, because Mal actually has no problem with whores at all. See Heart of Gold. I specifically said "whores", because I think Mal has issues with Companions, rather. And not even for their profession, but for the hypocracy; for "The lie of it," as Mal put it. Mal puts down Inara's profession, not because he has moral gripes with whores, but because Inara basically denies being one! She is hurt when Mals calls her one, because she's largely in denial about what she does for a living. Oh sure, she got her fancy training down to an art: tea ceremonies, a civilized tongue in her mouth, silky dresses, sponge baths, the works. But all that training accomplishes precisely that: it causes Inara to see herself as anything but a whore. "Better than," so to speak. It is that self-delusion that irritates Mal. Which is why he keeps calling her one to her face.

It's, in the end, not Mal who needs to accept she's a whore, but Inara herself. :) If she did away with the facade, Mal would accept her profession, no problem; like he accepts and respects Nandi, no problem. Except, of course, that once Inara accepts she's whore, she can no longer be one! The denial is the only thing that makes it work; society's denial, really; no need to put it all on dear Inara; 'respectable' folks, like on Persephone, who needed a way to make whoring socially acceptable. So they called it something else; made em courtisan-like, and endowed them with some social status and wealth. But, in the end, a whore, by any other name, is still a whore. And, deep down, Inara knows it, too. As does Mal. And, again, being a whore is fine in Mal's book, just so long as there's no lie about it. So, in short, Mal does, indeed, not fully accept Inara as a Companion; but I'm fair certain he would accept her as a whore -- as I'm equally certain Inara herself wouldn't.

Had the series continued, I think, at some point, Inara would have given up being a Companion. Not because Mal would have insisted, but simply because Inara would eventually have come to see the lie of it, too. Half of history is hiding the truth; and you simply can't be together with someone who constantly keeps 'unhiding' it to your face. At which point you either face matters, or you leave -- the latter is what she did, naturally. Also because Mal slept with Nandi, of course, and Inara realized she was in a situation which was only hurting her. Unrequited/impossible love and some such. But even if HoG had never happened, things having stayed equal, Inara, at one time or another, inevitably would have had to make a similar choice.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Quote:

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Originally posted by asarian:

Commence my unpopular rebuttle:

Mal respects Inara; honestly, he does. :)

---

I'll agree with you there. And rephrase my earlier opinion to say, "He respects her but he doesn't treat her that way." Which essentially renders his respect meaningless.

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I was gonna say: "He respects Inara, but not her profession." Glad I didn't, though, because Mal actually has no problem with whores at all. See Heart of Gold.

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I also agree with that.



However...

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I specifically said "whores", because I think Mal has issues with Companions, rather. And not even for their profession, but for the hypocracy; for "The lie of it," as Mal put it. Mal puts down Inara's profession, not because he has moral gripes with whores, but because Inara basically denies being one!

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That's where I profoundly disagree.

I think there is a difference between whoring and companioning. Both are types of prostitution, but with very different objectives.

Also, the word "whore" has in and of itself negative connotations. I don't blame Inara for rejecting a word that has over millenia been used to denigrate women's sexuality.

The demand to equate whoring and Companioning is a demand to denigrate the Companion profession. It denies the value of the Companion profession, something Inara believes in very strongly.

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She is hurt when Mals calls her one, because she's largely in denial about what she does for a living.

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Profoundly disagree again.

Inara is not a stupid woman, nor one in the habit of promoting hypocrisy. The only thing we see her lying about in the series is the depth of her feelings for Mal, nothing else. If she felt that Companioning was whoring, she'd own it, because she doesn't do things she doesn't believe in.

It would certainly make her relationship with Mal easier. But she doesn't. She fights against the denigrating word because she believes that its wrong.

She's proud of her job, which is essentially a type of sexual therapy, even though she occasionally indulges in more shallow clients like Atherton. Her judgment is not 100%, as we see, but that doesn't mean every client is that way. The female Senator wasn't, Higgins' son wasn't. We haven't seen any Core clients, so we don't know what a not-Border world client would even be like, and judging by Mal's attitude, the Border worlds are not as in favor of Companions as the Core worlds.

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Oh sure, she got her fancy training down to an art: tea ceremonies, a civilized tongue in her mouth, silky dresses, sponge baths, the works. But all that training accomplishes precisely that: it causes Inara to see herself as anything but a whore. "Better than," so to speak. It is that self-delusion that irritates Mal. Which is why he keeps calling her one to her face.

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But who says it's a self-delusion? Mal doesn't have to be right about this. I don't believe it is.

More importantly, I also don't think that Mal believes this.

It's a front. An easily believable sham he puts up to keep Inara at a distance. Actually, I think Mal has zero trouble admitting a difference between a "whore"-type prostitute and a Companion-type, just like he wouldn't have trouble admitting a difference between the skill level of a highly trained singer and a merely talented one.

Mal's just as freaked out about being in love with Inara as she is about being in love with him. Inara's weapon is professional distance, Mal's is to create an air of disrespect. Easypeasy and effectively hurtful.

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It's, in the end, not Mal who needs to accept she's a whore, but Inara herself. :) If she did away with the facade, Mal would accept her profession, no problem; like he accepts and respects Nandi, no problem.

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Hardly. He wasn't in love with Nandi and her job wouldn't bother him one bit because there is no desire for exclusivity there. He does desire exclusivity with Inara, which is the rub with her

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
as it were the characters were changed

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As a Vulcan of my aquaintance is fond of saying, change is the essential nature of all existence.
Please elevate yourself to a higher point, and travel on.*

*get over it Chrisisall

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I believe he said "change is the essential process of all existence."

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Originally posted by pachelbel:


I believe he said "change is the essential process of all existence."

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I stand corrected; thanks Pach!

Memory didn't serve Chrisisall

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In response to Agent Rouka, I don't really think you could have made your point better and I have to say that you also make a very good point.

_____

"You know that's gonna fall off."
-----Nathan Fillion (to me while drunk)

How are ships unlike food?
1. If you try it and don't like it, you don't have to do it again.
2. You can have as much as you want, when you want.
3. Cravings can be very specific.
I mean, hello it's not as if there's 'ship police?

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Another opinion:

Mal and Inara would never have got together. (not sure if this is unpopular though, as I don't think they were designed to end up together romantically.)

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Inara is not a stupid woman, nor one in the habit of promoting hypocrisy. The only thing we see her lying about in the series is the depth of her feelings for Mal, nothing else. If she felt that Companioning was whoring, she'd own it, because she doesn't do things she doesn't believe in.

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There's a difference between knowing what you're doing, and realizing what you're doing. And denial is hardly ever about cold-hearted lying, even. Like battered women are generally neither stupid, nor flat-out lying about their situation. It's far more subtle. Denial is about what one chooses to see when, erm, there's something to deny. :) Likewise with Inara: she's knows she's sleeping with men for money, but chooses to call what she's doing something else; like 'therapy,' for instance. As a therapist would say: Can't imagine how many times men in my position hear that excuse. :) I agree that Inara is not lying. But she's nonetheless living a lie. That's what denial is.

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She fights against the denigrating word because she believes that its wrong.

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Actually, that's not true. In Heart of Gold Inara uses the word "whore" on women, too. Mal is even shocked that she does it:

INARA
They're whores, Mal.

MAL
Thought you didn't much care for that
word?

INARA
It applies. None who work for Nandi
are registered with the Guild.

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It's a front. An easily believable sham he puts up to keep Inara at a distance. Actually, I think Mal has zero trouble admitting a difference between a "whore"-type prostitute and a Companion-type, just like he wouldn't have trouble admitting a difference between the skill level of a highly trained singer and a merely talented one.

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There this joke ascribed to Churchill, where he asks a lady whether she would sleep with men for, say, $100. She's highly offended. Then he asks her whether she'd do it for a million, and she goes: "Hmmm.." She then asks him whether he thinks she's a prostitute. To which he answers: "Madam, we've already established what you are; we're just determining your price." Point being exactly the one you made: highly skilled or merely talented, they're both singers. :)

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You presuppose an origin to the Guild there that has no proof. (...) It's just as likely that the Guild was created by prostitutes, or therapists or a mix of both, to promote exactly those ideals.

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And you presuppose a presupposition where none exists. :) A Companion is a kind of mix between a geisha and a courtisan: all the refinement and education of a geisha, but sleeping with the clients (courtisans). But the origins of the Guild are somewhat unclear. I reckon the notion of Companions was imported from Asian culture when the American and Chinese cultures first began to fuse.

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You seem to start from the position that prostitution is in itself unrespectable, saying that social acceptance and wealth must be tied to a facade. Is that just my impression?

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It is my belief that prostitution is a form of exploitation of women, no matter how nicely it's dressed up, yes. And that everyone involved in the trade, by consequence, is, one way or the other, in denial about that.

I wouldn't call prostitution 'unrespectable', though, as that entails a judgement towards the women-one I do not share.

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Could you allow for the possibility that on Core worlds prostitution is a truly accepted and respected profession, without hypocrisy or hidden disdain involved or do you consider that impossible?

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That's like asking whether the medieval courtisans were a truly accepted and respected profession. Yes, there were. And yes, I'm sure that on Core worlds prostitution has become an acceptable way of making a living. Without hidden disdain, though? That's harder, and ties in with the hypocrisy. "Hypokrisis." play-acting. In the Greek. So, do I think they're all overtly play-acting that prostitution is okay? No. I think they've rationalize

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I agree totally, NBZ. I simply cannot think of any scenario where it would have worked. I can see Mal with someone else, and maybe even Inara with someone else, but not both of them together.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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I can't see either Mal or Inara in a loveless relationship. It would be going through the motions and that is neither one of these characters, living in this verse. I can't see either one of them falling in love again. Inara is a prostitute and Mal shoots people, What Love?

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I don't think that Mal and Inara are soulmates...I think they are people who could find love outside of with each other.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Soul mates don’t always equal a "relationship".

By relationship are we talking Soccer Mom and Suburban Dad?

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I don't know...I understood from your other post that you were saying that you could not see Mal and Inara loving anyone but each other. I see that as saying that they are "soulmates", even if you don't use that word. I disagree with that, and furthermore think that Mal and Inara are capable of having relationships (Inara would find it hard, but not Mal) just not with each other. Perhaps I missed your point though.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Originally posted by Platonist:
Soul mates don’t always equal a "relationship".

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ah, how many many tmes have i had to point that out to poor youths convinced of the opposite - hey ho.

I don't think Mal and Inara would work long term... Mal is about being 'free' - but it seems to be on his terms - Inara gets little freedom - just a deal of privacy and the odd client.

i think she is also beginning an arc of discovery/change - it is after all clear that mal affected her... but people are messy when it comes to self dicovery - arcs are generally more noodley - up down forward back and several strands at once - so if she missteps... ant no biggy is just temporary.

serenity gives her family - but to Inara that may not be enough... or it may have made her realise she has famly already - girls in training, fellow techers etc

a good writer for series 2 could have had her like marion in the church - in an audry hepburn style - her dialogue with Robin (sean connery) is of the mal/innara sort.

i think mal is destinded for the will they won't they friction with Saffron...

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I should clarify, I think Mal and Inara have quite a bit going for them as far as a relationship, which I personally think they already have. On a score of 1 to 10, it may be a 1, but it does exist. LOL

They both share a love of home (Serenity), family (she was in agony leaving both), a sexual attraction, a free spirit (their independence), trust, ("she wouldn't set us up willingly") and on one level respect (she's a real cherry blossom, no denying it"). They laugh together; even their arguments are funny.

And, strangely, there is a lot of honesty in the words "whore" and "petty thief". Honesty is a big component in my experience for a successful relationship.

And I think, most importantly, they have ironically, a mutual willingness to sacrifice that which they deem most important to themselves.
Inara was willing to sacrifice her "freedom" to spare Mal in Shindig and Mal was willing to use "Serenity" as bait from the Reavers, in the pilot, so she could fly to safety. The whole scenario was played out again in the BDM with her rescue/escape, in case you are looking for another example.

Will it be a "fairytale" relationship, where we are to expect them to live happily ever after? No...But what real relationship is? And in Mal's line of work it doesn't look like he is going to live that long anyway.

So, I guess my unpopular opinion (since that is the thread), is that Mal and Inara actually have a strong foundation for a good relationship, never a perfect ten, but maybe a seven...OK a 6 tops!

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Mal/Saffron...wytchcroft, I told you before, enough with that gose... that is about the most unromantic pairing...and stop cracking me up...keep busy, go find your lost stuff in the BSR!

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Originally posted by Platonist:
So, I guess my unpopular opinion (since that is the thread), is that Mal and Inara actually have a strong foundation for a good relationship, never a perfect ten, but maybe a seven...OK a 6 tops!

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in a shindig style!

you could be right but - i just don't feel it - yet -

i agree that they know each instinctively - but hookin up - for real??? i dunno... would take a long time - the BDM shows mal acknowledging love for the first time - but the love is the love of his ship and the love for River (non sexual).

my unpopular opinion is that Mal kinda has a thing for Saff..

but 'nuff - we're nearly talking 'ship ehre! sweet lords of kobol!:(

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Ok, here's my unpopular opinion. I think Mal & Inara have a better chance than Simon & Kaylee. Quite frankly, I can't see Simon being happy staying on Serenity. The man is a gifted surgeon whose job is pretty much waiting for someone to get shot. That's gotta get boring after awhile. I don't see S/K lasting beyond a year or two at the most.

Now, M/I (and I am an ARDENT M/I shipper) I can see that if they work through their issues, which could take several years, they could make it long term.

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my unpopular opinion is that Mal kinda has a thing for Saff..

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Really? Its unpopular? I thought that all along. The only reason nothing happens 'with that' is that Saff isn't 'on board with that.' ;-)

====
Please vote for Firefly hourly: http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html

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Oh, I'm glad someone else also holds that opinion. If Simon and Kaylee continue to live, I don't see that relationship lasting.

Simon's talents and profession (his original first love) are wasted on Serenity. Once River is well enough to stay on as crew and the warrants are lifted, I see him making a move to re establish his career, probably out on the rim. River is his first love and his profession is his second, with Kaylee trailing a distant third. Doesn't River read his true thoughts in OIS to this effect, when he is with Kaylee on the couch.
Poor Kaylee, I wish SHE was the mind reader.



Sorry for the running analogy, my daughter is a long distance runner and was just offered a scholarship this weekend.

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Originally posted by Platonist:

I should clarify, I think Mal and Inara have quite a bit going for them as far as a relationship, which I personally think they already have. On a score of 1 to 10, it may be a 1, but it does exist. LOL

They both share a love of home (Serenity), family (she was in agony leaving both), a sexual attraction, a free spirit (their independence), trust, ("she wouldn't set us up willingly") and on one level respect (she's a real cherry blossom, no denying it"). They laugh together; even their arguments are funny.

And, strangely, there is a lot of honesty in the words "whore" and "petty thief". Honesty is a big component in my experience for a successful relationship.

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Exactly.

I think the relationship between Mal and Inara would have worked out; for one, they're both too invested in their antagonism about it for it not to. :) I think Inara, though she knows she loves Mal, is nonetheless self-prohibited from declairing said love; primarily because her higher social status keeps bringing her back to thinking there can never be anything between them (an idea, indeed, shared by some folks here). And Mal? He's not ready to admit his love for Inara, pretty much for the same reasons. :) By the end of Shindig, when they're sitting on that grid together ("I got stabbed, right here!"), it's clear to me that they're meant for each other, though. On a scale of 1 to 10, I give it a solid 7. Provided Joss don't kill her first, of course. :)


--
"It's the unpopular theory." -- Yours Truly

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Originally posted by asarian:
Provided Joss don't kill her first, of course. :)

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Which he would. Just to torment poor Mal even further.

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