Ariel...

POSTED BY: freelancertex
UPDATED: Monday, January 7, 2008 15:01
VIEWED: 11084
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FREELANCERTEX

Wednesday, October 24, 2007 1:55 PM (P)

Okay, I was watching Ariel, listening to River's nonsensical ramblings, and I couldn't help thinking...

please stop me if this topic has already been made.

Since she's psychic, and since there were lots of important Alliance people apparently observe subjects such as she, could what she was saying be code in anyway? Something she accidentily plucked from the mind of an Alliance official that only she (and the people she stole the infor from) knows the meaning of? Iunno, maybe this is an obvious fact to other people, but I never really thought about it before. Was wondering if anyone else hadn't thought about it either :-P

*goes back to watching Firefly until it's time for her next class*

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

WYTCHCROFT

Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:01 PM (P)

i think that's a verrry interesting idea!:)

code is possible -
but i think it gets jumbled up with memories and associations (not all her own)
so it would be hard to be certain -
but yeah... hmmm... maybe!

FREELANCERTEX

Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:24 PM (P)

true as well. but, as she said in one episode, "I remember everything, I remember too much, and some of it's made up...there's secrets" (yes i know thats not the full quote, but I just needed the parts that served my purpose :-P) So it very well could be a combination of memories and things she's 'gleaned' from certain important secret people :P lol

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

SCHOOLBOYSWINK

Wednesday, October 24, 2007 5:20 PM (P)

The trouble here is that we don't know exactly how much River was supposed to have had in her head, what it was about, etc. when the Firefly episodes themselves were being written. (Possibly NOBODY knew the specifics, if Joss hadn't decided yet.) We do know for sure that the intended origin of Reavers was changed between the show and the BDM when the story had to kind of switch from a weekly serial to an epic film format, so who knows what else in terms of the info that was supposed to be in River's head, that we now speculate about because of the BDM, was never intended during the time that the episodes themselves were being written.

I believe that most of what River spouts is her own interpretation of the events going on around her, in her fractured reality. This, to me, is just an outgrowth of her inability to "not feel" things; her mental associations and some internal monologues just come flying out of her mouth. Ariel itself contains a perfect example, with her lines about coming downstairs at Christmas and all the presents being gone serving as an analog in her mind for Jayne betraying them and then finding that no reward was coming.

All that said, the quote you cited about "secrets" shows that, even before the BDM, River was supposed to know SOMETHING, and some of what she rambles is difficult to tie in directly to the things that are going on at that time. So, the idea of a code in some of the things she mutters is a possibility, and a very intriguing one at that, especially since she used a code to communicate to Simon that she was in trouble. Now that the direction of the story arc has been changed by the cancellation and subsequent BDM, most sadly, we may never know for sure.

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

FREELANCERTEX

Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:26 PM (P)

prezactly. :-P

The show will come back. I'll make sure of it :)

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

VETERAN

Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:41 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SchoolboysWink:
....We do know for sure that the intended origin of Reavers was changed between the show and the BDM when the story had to kind of switch from a weekly serial to an epic film format,

Really? I didn't know. you got a link on that?

NBZ

Thursday, October 25, 2007 12:01 AM (P)

People may speak in code, write it, work with it, but I doubt they think in it.

If they did I am of the opinion that River would not have found what she "saw" as traumatic - she would not have understood it.

A mind reading is not like reading a book. you do not get the full story every time.

MERRYK

Thursday, October 25, 2007 12:20 AM (P)

My opinion, partly from what I understand of how Joss writes, and partly because I love realistic psychology, is that River knows way more than she knows she does. Even in her lucid moments, I don't think she would be able to retrieve what she's read. It's probably buried in her memory, due to her mental instability and the way that memory works.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

FREELANCERTEX

Thursday, October 25, 2007 2:02 AM (P)

NBZ, I know they don't THINK in code @_@, what I'm saying is since she can read minds, and the information is there in their minds, she probably picked it out. They don't have to think it for her to retrieve it, it just has to be there.

MerryK, yeah but we don't know exactly when she's lucid and when she's not. When she starts babbling, IF it's code, she's probably in one of her more unstable moments. she doesn't seem to have a firm grasp of reality most of the time anyway. As was said, she's "a bit whimsical in the brainpan."

*shrugs* just my argument though :-P I'm not rejecting what you're saying, it's just I'm trying to clarify my point of view. :)

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:53 AM (P)

I don't see her speaking in code, unless the thought that she read was already in code. She speaks quite straightforward, from what I see. When the ship goes boom, she says Fire, and everybody ignores her until they wander around getting injured and finding out there is a fire - but one example.
When not speaking of the current, then she speaks of the past or of other gleaned memories, likely all of these undiscernable to her.

Of course, as a mother-of-all-geniuses, nobody should be able to understand her fully, so the scriptwriters did an amazingly great job of portraying this.

FREELANCERTEX

Thursday, October 25, 2007 3:51 PM (P)

I'm talking about the episode 'Ariel' in particular ;) I was watching the episode as I made this topic lol. twas a thought that occured on the fly.

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

SCHOOLBOYSWINK

Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:17 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
Quote:
Originally posted by SchoolboysWink:
....We do know for sure that the intended origin of Reavers was changed between the show and the BDM when the story had to kind of switch from a weekly serial to an epic film format,

Really? I didn't know. you got a link on that?

No, Veteran, no link. It is actually something I read here, but I don't remember who said it. I remember thinking at the time that it was reliable, based on either a reference or my past impressions of the poster; I know that's pretty lousy support. Can anybody back me up on this one? Thanks in advance if so.

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

JONGSSTRAW

Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:40 PM (P)

I think originally the Reavers got that way as a result of eating tainted Kosher Passover tuna.

Sorry....couldn't resist...from Flesh Gordon

NBZ

Thursday, October 25, 2007 8:21 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by freelancertex:
NBZ, I know they don't THINK in code @_@, what I'm saying is since she can read minds, and the information is there in their minds, she probably picked it out. They don't have to think it for her to retrieve it, it just has to be there.

heh, totally offtopic (I think) but this is the point where I probably disagree with the known universe. :)

IMO Someone has to be thinking something for her to pick it up. Think of it like a wave hitting her. She may not know who or where it came from. since she also thinks herself, she may even confuse it for one of her own thoughts.

But she could not sift through a persons mind to find something ni particular. unless there is some physical gesturing. Like "I don't want to talk about a pony" to get the person to think about a pony.

Apart from that Ariel *DOES* pose a lot of questions. some easily answered, some not so.

Going back to code, if she does use it, it is entirely possible this is a part of her pre-academy skillset.

VETERAN

Friday, October 26, 2007 12:58 AM (P)

Yeah, but what constitutes thinking?

..... Ok Ok stop laughing for a sec. What I mean is perhaps she can read people's unconscious thoughts. The human brain deals with so much information all at once, absorbing all the sensations of everyday life, keeping the body balanced, keeping a constant image of your surroundings, thinking about what's for lunch.... And then there's your thoughts. Not just what's on your mind, but the stuff in the back of your mind. Maybe your making a sandwich but simultaneously you're considering the character of your companion. You're thinking about how much mustard is going on the sandwich, but your also thinking about the traitorous opportunist to your right. Only you don't notice it because your actively engaged in sandwich making.

NBZ

Friday, October 26, 2007 1:49 AM (P)

conscious or subconscious both will have potential to be read.

However, just knowing some fact will probably not be of much use unless there is some thought about it.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Friday, October 26, 2007 8:57 AM (P)

In Ariel she knows the doctor is killing the patient, even though the doc does not know. It might be his subconscious which knows, or4 it could be in his memory of what the drugs he administers can do, but he is not intentionally killing his patient. But River knows. Unless the writers have accepted the premonition aspect of mind reading/ESP/psychics, she is not seeing into the immediate future, but reading the memory or subconscious of the killing doctor.

WYTCHCROFT

Friday, October 26, 2007 9:50 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:

heh, totally offtopic (I think) but this is the point where I probably disagree with the known universe. :)

IMO Someone has to be thinking something for her to pick it up. Think of it like a wave hitting her. She may not know who or where it came from. since she also thinks herself, she may even confuse it for one of her own thoughts.

But she could not sift through a persons mind to find something in particular.

this matches my way of thinking entirely.

FREELANCERTEX

Friday, October 26, 2007 5:27 PM (P)

Jewelstaitefan: prezactly :-P thanks for the example

NBZ: I didn't say she was sifting through thoughts in people's minds, but if you think about it she can and does actively read people's minds. later on in 'Trash' when she looks after Jayne and says he's afraid, Jayne never said he was afraid. Nor did anyone but Mal (who never told any of the other crew) know about Jayne betraying the Tams on Ariel. And in the BDM I doubt the Parliamentary officials who were observing her were actively thinking about Miranda, as that incident happened 10 years prior, yet she still gleaned the memory. Yes, she's probably absorbing memories and thoughts from other people, I'm not denying that, but she's a psychic, she knows what people around her are thinking.

"I just don't like the idea of her hearin' what I'm thinkin'."

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
Yeah, but what constitutes thinking?

..... Ok Ok stop laughing for a sec. What I mean is perhaps she can read people's unconscious thoughts. The human brain deals with so much information all at once, absorbing all the sensations of everyday life, keeping the body balanced, keeping a constant image of your surroundings, thinking about what's for lunch.... And then there's your thoughts. Not just what's on your mind, but the stuff in the back of your mind. Maybe your making a sandwich but simultaneously you're considering the character of your companion. You're thinking about how much mustard is going on the sandwich, but your also thinking about the traitorous opportunist to your right. Only you don't notice it because your actively engaged in sandwich making.

prezactly what I was trying to say, xie-xie :) Sometimes I can't find the right words, you did.

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

TRAVELER

Friday, October 26, 2007 11:29 PM (P)

River seems got a lot of information on Jubal. I do not believe he was thinking about the dog he tortured, yet River knew all about it. With information like that flowing through her mind she would really have a hard time living in reality.

River had so many other abilities. When she killed those three guys with her eyes closed. She calculated the angle and distnce of each one and simply pointed the pistol at them. She had to work fast before they moved.

Her abilities seem to strengthen when she needs them and memories pop out when she sees something like a Blue Sun label on a can of beans.

Were not told, but I feel River may have helped Mal with Saffron when the stole the laser pistol. Letting him know what was going to happen after they stole it. I really thought it was out of character for Mal to let his guard down and lose his weapon to his wife. It may not even had been loaded. He just wanted to one up on her.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

FREELANCERTEX

Friday, October 26, 2007 11:53 PM (P)

SPEAKING of Jubal Early, you just reminded me. When she was talking to everyone on the ship, and she was talking to Mal, and he made a face, nad she said "don't make faces." Yes, I knwo she was using the comm system, but there's no video feed on the comm, only audio. same when she told Zoe "no touching guns!!"

Traveler, pleas explain more about the Mal/Saffron thing?? And btw, out of curiosity, where'd you get your sn from?

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

TRAVELER

Saturday, October 27, 2007 12:12 AM (P)

I was just making a theory that Mal got advance knowledge from River that good old Mrs. Reynolds was was going to dump Mal in the desert. It was not her original plan. She had already pulled a gun on Mal when they were still in her first husband's house. But River seems to know the future. She seems to see ahead at times. So Mal sits next to Saffron and lets her steal his gun. All the while Mal knows Inara is waiting at the trash container. Notice that Inara waits till Saffron has dug into trash and gotten filthy before showing herself. They really wanted Mrs. Reynolds to know they had her all figured out.

By my SN do you mean the picture of Princess Aura.
Tony Labue's Flash Gordon site has an excellent collection of stills of Princess Aura. Sometimes they even have a forum. The forum seems to go down about once a year due to spam. But the rest of the sight is available and gives an excellent account of the three serials Buster Crabbe made as Flash Gordon.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

NBZ

Saturday, October 27, 2007 12:58 AM (P)

Just addressing a few points in a few different posts.

I am not denying that River can read thoughts. (not brains/minds, but thoughts.)

Jubal Early: She was not always in his mind. She was in his ship. Where he had a picture of a dog and a few other things. See him mentioning his mother. Then correcting herself. River(sees the picture of the old woman): "Your mother does." Jubal (thinks) "she is dead." River: "Oh, Did."

Same with Mal - the making faces bit does not support that she reads minds like a book. And Zoe "I'll just get my gun" River: "No touching guns!".

Reading thoughts, not minds. (This brings another question to the fore - is she conditioned to follow orders? seems likely to me.)

In the BDM - the subliminal message seemed to have sent a lot of information. Probably more than necessary. If you look at the subliminal shots, there is even one of the operative. I doubt she had met him before. (ofcourse there is also artistic licence here. The subliminal message we saw could just be a jumble of nothing. but it did also show some old people she talked about later...)

subconscious thinking or conscious she can pick up on. Maybe one of those that saw her had the thought that she could be used to clean up their mess?

I do not think River helped out on the lassiter job. For one she is not shown much in that episode, secondly, I doubt Joss would turn down a chance for exposition of Rivers' abilities. Besides even Saffron would have been improvising - waiting to get her upper hand. Which she almost got infront of Haymer, but Mal pulled out his own hidden pistol. In the original script of Serenity, River was supposed to pull Mal's gun on him. Even though that was changed, I would put this "carelessness" as one of his characteristics.

Ariel - She could sense what the patient was feeling. She could also sense what the doctor was thinking. Since she is around a doctor most o0f the time, she would pick up some info. oh, and she is also a genius to boot.

and Jayne being afraid - not hard to discern even for a non-psychic! he was uncomfortable around them two in that very scene, jumpy and rounding on them in response. and she is a reader. Not hard to read the fear that others know what he did. A fear he even showed to mal - kill him, but don;t tell others what he did.

FREELANCERTEX

Saturday, October 27, 2007 4:01 AM (P)

Traveler: I thought Mal had Inara there as backup, cuz when she goes to pick him up at the end they discuss that...iunno.
And by your sn I mean your screen name ;-) sry. AIM abbreviations sometimes dominate my forum posts. I try to keep it to a minimum.

NBZ: yeah, but she said "he's afraid we'll know" and she told her brother about what REALLY happened on Ariel, that's why Simon had that little conversation on the doctor's table with Jayne later on.

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Saturday, October 27, 2007 9:50 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by freelancertex:

NBZ: I didn't say she was sifting through thoughts in people's minds, but if you think about it she can and does actively read people's minds. later on in 'Trash' when she looks after Jayne and says he's afraid, Jayne never said he was afraid. Nor did anyone but Mal (who never told any of the other crew) know about Jayne betraying the Tams on Ariel.

prezactly what I was trying to say, xie-xie :) Sometimes I can't find the right words, you did.

Error error.
River knows Jayne betrayed them from the moment she wakes from corpsified and says "piece of copper for your...." when she already read his thought without providing the penny, and the entire episode (in hospital) he's on edge for betraying them and she keeps saying she doesn't want to go back to them (hands of blue) but Simon keeps telling her Jayne is helping them, which she knows is wrong.
She repeatedly mentions this betrayal of Jayne, although not clearly for others to catch on to until Simon finally listens when she says Jayne is afraid, of them, for what they (she) knows.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Saturday, October 27, 2007 1:28 PM (P)

Also, the patient has no knowledge of being killed. She's not getting the info from him. Either she's getting it from the killing doc, or one of the nurses who knows but will not stop it, or we would need to acknowledge River is precognitive, seeing into the future.

NBZ

Saturday, October 27, 2007 10:47 PM (P)

The patient does not know what the doctor is doing. However he probably can feel what is happening. faint, nauseous feeling pain around the heart etc etc.

I cannot accept precognition. Not until Joss himself declares it so. But his statement about the furthest he was willing to go into fantasy was a psychic would IMO contradict that.

The most I will accept is that she is good at putting 1 and 1 together to get (very close) to a correct answer. and she feels everything, so she does not ignore any data points (while she possibly may consider too many... and she is crazy...)

However some people do class precognition as psychic as well... some people not me.

As you said she knew about Jayne because she could read his thoughts.

PS If it is assumed she has precognitive abilities, her mind reading comes into doubt. She knows Jayne betrayed them not because she read his mind, but because she knew he would admit to it later on... I prefer to stick to thought reading, and only thought reading. with a strong mind, good bodily coordination.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Sunday, October 28, 2007 3:52 AM (P)

I did not know Joss considered psychic to be fantasy. He writes it well for not understanding it.
I also had not considered precogition would be seen as something other than a facet of psychic. Perhaps I onetime thought that, can't remember, but doesn't fit with my current understanding.
How would you categorize precognition? As being completely separate from psychic? do you consider them both ESP? do you consider deja vu to be precognitive? or ESP? Do you consider precognition to be fantasy? Or only relegated to the likes of Nostradomas?
Did Jayne actually admit it to River or Simon? I only recall him admitting to Mal.

I haven't quite figured out why she cuts Jayne - just because he was rude to Simon? Before or after the extra large gob on the wetstone (or is it whetstone?)

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Sunday, October 28, 2007 4:00 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by freelancertex:
Traveler: I thought Mal had Inara there as backup, cuz when she goes to pick him up at the end they discuss that...iunno.

I thought what Mal was doing was keeping her away from the trash site so Inara had time to find the Lassiter well before Yosaff got there - not like they knew exactly how long it would take to find it, so Mal needed to delay her for as long as possible.

NBZ

Sunday, October 28, 2007 5:05 AM (P)

scifi and fantasy are interchangeable there.

He said psychic was as far as he was willing to go.

It was only later when I realised that seeing the future can also be classed as psychic.

I normally class precognition, deja vu etc all under the time travel banner. Is that scifi or fantasy? a bit of both. More fantasy IMO. Besides noone has ever got time travel right. in any form. I see it mostly used as a cop out (even worse, sometimes it is a reset switch!). But then again reincarnating dead characters could be seen as the same... so personally I dislike most things that deal with time travel. too many pitfalls that people don't even try to avoid. too much arbitrary "logic" to get around thinking.

Besides this 'verse does not even have FTL travel! something that is in most fantasy essential for time travel.

River knowing about Jayne - She read his or Mal's or that cop geezers thoughts.

She cuts Jayne because he was wearing a Blue Sun T shirt. and he spits on the whetstone. and insults Simon. and she is crazy. She also thinks he looks better in red. Could be either or all.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Sunday, October 28, 2007 10:48 AM (P)

I would agree time travel in terms of physical transportation forward or backward in time is more fantasy, as there are some technical glitches in the application of it. But mental horizons are not the same.
I do not consider myself a time traveller just because I've had clearcut deja vu, without a way to logically dispell or denigrate the experience.

Since university studies have already proven time is not a limitation of psychic events (or technical remote viewings), I also don't consider it to be relegated to time travel, either.

But I'm not wrapping my mind around how those 3 can be grouped together as time travel. Gotta think about that more.

One thing about the possibility of River being precognitive. If she sees in the near future that Jayne will betray them, then she cuts him, which then spurs him to betray them, thus she creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. kinda like 12 Monkeys.

FREELANCERTEX

Monday, October 29, 2007 2:50 AM (P)

Quote:
Jewelstaitefan:
Error error.
River knows Jayne betrayed them from the moment she wakes from corpsified and says "piece of copper for your...." when she already read his thought without providing the penny, and the entire episode (in hospital) he's on edge for betraying them and she keeps saying she doesn't want to go back to them (hands of blue) but Simon keeps telling her Jayne is helping them, which she knows is wrong.
She repeatedly mentions this betrayal of Jayne, although not clearly for others to catch on to until Simon finally listens when she says Jayne is afraid, of them, for what they (she) knows.

Yeah, I knew that part lol. Sorry for not being clear. I was trying to convey that she knew Jayne was betraying them when no one else did, that was the only quote I could think of to convey that fact. :\ Thanks though.

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, October 29, 2007 5:29 AM (P)

So in this episode the thing I least understand is River cutting Jayne. I understand most of you think River is insane, but I don't. So here's my take on the cutting.

Jayne says Simon's food smells like crotch, he's cleaning gun parts.
River takes her crotch food over to the table, then she'd looking grumpy at Jayne.
Jayne puts away his gun stuff, brings out the knives and gobs on the whetstone, Simon complains, and Jayne hawks extra big, in intimidating fashion.
River heads back to get a knife.
Jayne, being rude to Simon, says can't exclude the doc, that would be ruuuude - making sarcastic fun of Simon's sensibilities.
River cuts Jayne.
When asked why, River says he looks better in red - she seems defiant.

Simon is River's savior. River sees and senses Simon is offended by Jayne and Jayne is being a bully to Simon, and he is intentionally being rude and a bully.
He has switched to knife. Under the guise of "live by the sword, die be the sword", Jayne is living by the knife and can die by the knife (she won't actualy kill him). Additionally, Jayne thinks he is the hot poop of knife-wielders on board, but River knows she's far beyond him (we will see in BDH). So in order to one-up Jayne (the bully) in the wielding of Knifes, River will then put him in his place and stop him from bullying her savior. The knife is her medium of message delivery. I think he is still holding a knife when she cuts him with the knife.
I'm thinking if another mind reader was present, they could have said here "Saw that one coming"
When asked why, she is not remorseful. I do think she is flippant.

Did she overreact? yes. Was it illogical? no. Think of it in terms of a schoolyard - kids exceed the limits of boundaries understood by adults, she's still emotionally something of a kid, not a lot of exposure to real world or bullies. When the oversized bully is picking on the runt, how many can recall wishing they could put the bully in his place, on his terms (being bigger if the bully is just big, being more experienced with a bat if that's what's being used to bully, etc.)
She did violated the rule of First Blood, but she's still learning.

Anybody disagree with this? any factual or canonical references to refute this? This fairly makes sense to me, but it's still kinda shaky.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, October 29, 2007 5:36 AM (P)

ASARIAN

Monday, October 29, 2007 4:06 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

So in this episode the thing I least understand is River cutting Jayne. I understand most of you think River is insane, but I don't. So here's my take on the cutting.

Jayne says Simon's food smells like crotch, he's cleaning gun parts.
River takes her crotch food over to the table, then she'd looking grumpy at Jayne.
Jayne puts away his gun stuff, brings out the knives and gobs on the whetstone, Simon complains, and Jayne hawks extra big, in intimidating fashion.
River heads back to get a knife.
Jayne, being rude to Simon, says can't exclude the doc, that would be ruuuude - making sarcastic fun of Simon's sensibilities.
River cuts Jayne.
When asked why, River says he looks better in red - she seems defiant.

I've always felt that River cuts Jayne, simply because she's triggered directly by what Wash says:

WASH
So, two days in a hospital, huh?
(Inara nods)
That's awful. Don't you just
hate doctors?

SIMON
Hey!

WASH
I mean, present company excluded.

JAYNE
Don't be excluding people, that's
just rude.

The "Don't you just hate doctors?" comment is what I believe sets River of -- the other lines are just time-filler (it takes a second or two for River to act on her trigger). Could be Jayne's "Don't be excluding people" functions like a kinda of actuator, prompting River to, indeed, include him -- after his own suggestion, as it were -- in the flashbacks she's having about the bad doctors in her life. A trigger which is compounded by Jayne wearing that Blue Sun shirt. It's the talk about hating doctors + Jayne wearing that Blue Sun shirt (+ possibly him 'asking' to be included) that proves a combination which is too much for River.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

SHINYSEVEN2

Monday, October 29, 2007 4:12 PM (P)

Maybe River is identifying with Simon, who cuts people with knives (for their own good!), or having a precognition of one of the future times when Simon will be operating on Jayne?

FREELANCERTEX

Monday, October 29, 2007 8:35 PM (P)

Huh?

...

Now y'all got me confused. I mean, I never understood why River cut Jayne in the first place, but now I think I'm more confused :-P

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:27 AM (P)

River was already heading back to get the knife or already had it in hand before Jayne said "not to exclude doctors" or Wash said that. It was all after Wash said "it IS sitting still."

River's animosity is all directed at Jayne, nobody else in this scene. Not Wash.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Thursday, November 1, 2007 7:28 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by freelancertex:
Huh?

...

Now y'all got me confused. I mean, I never understood why River cut Jayne in the first place, but now I think I'm more confused :-P

__________________________

What are you confused about? Or, more confused?

FREELANCERTEX

Thursday, November 1, 2007 3:48 PM (P)

Jewel: about everything they all just said *points to everyone above her*

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Friday, November 2, 2007 8:29 AM (P)

If you specify more, I'll try to explain more.

According to the script, one sentence has Jayne looking Simon in the eye while hawking gob on his knife, the next has River heading back to the kitchen to get a knife while Simon scoots farther away from Jayne.

TRAVELER

Friday, November 2, 2007 11:45 PM (P)

Originally I used the name Traveler because I take a lot of road trips. A lot of concrete has felt the tires of my vehicles.

Then I was reading a book on one of my favorite topics, the Civil War. I study war in general.
Suddenly I come across the fact that Robert E. Lee's horse throughout the war was named Traveller, with two L's. Was this subliminal? I know I must have read about this before. If you saw my collection of books on the Civil War, you would not have hard time realizing I must have read about this fact before.

On a side note Traveller out-lived Robert E. Lee. General Lee did not live long after the Civil War. The effort of campaigning for four years and the strain of overall command of the Army of Virginia took its toll on Lee's health.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

FREELANCERTEX

Saturday, November 3, 2007 3:11 AM (P)

aha. I see. Cool :)

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Thursday, December 27, 2007 6:59 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
The patient does not know what the doctor is doing. However he probably can feel what is happening. faint, nauseous feeling pain around the heart etc etc.

I should mention that pain for this is not felt. Therem are not pain sensors around the heart, heart problem pain is felt in the arms, nexk and such.

Even knowing your heart is not beating is very difficult to isolate a sensation of it. I have watched my heart skip up to 4 beats and still had very hard time detecting any sensation relating to it.
Unless this guy had meditative feedback training he would have no clue, particularly subconscious - and he doesn't look the sort to know meditation.

ASARIAN

Thursday, December 27, 2007 11:47 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

River's animosity is all directed at Jayne, nobody else in this scene. Not Wash.

No one said it was targeted at Wash, did they? I said she was triggered by what Wash said, and, after a short delay, acted out on Jayne: most like because he was wearing the Blue Sun shirt. Typical case of transference.

Also, there's nothing to indicate River went back to the kitchen with the specific purpose of getting that knife. And IF she really went back for a knife, which is quite possible, then only because Jayne was playing with HIS knives: River is an observer, and, at that point, I think she was, if at all, merely intending to mimic (innocently) a behavior she found fascinating.

In my opinion, River was just heading for the kitchen, folks started talking about "Don't ya just hate Doctors" and such, and then River just grabbed the knife, and turned on Jayne because he was, in that moment, the most immediate link to Blue Sun, what with his shirt and all.

That whole scene, IMHO, had no other purpose than to hint to the fact that River had some traumatic (medical) experience with Blue Sun/Alliance.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

LACYFLYER

Sunday, December 30, 2007 5:40 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by traveler:
River seems got a lot of information on Jubal. River had so many other abilities. When she killed those three guys with her eyes closed. Her abilities seem to strengthen when she needs them and memories pop out when she sees something like a Blue Sun label on a can of beans.

/B]

If the series had gone on, there would have been time to explore all of River's abilities, but I think psychic is just one of them. Simon said that, as gifited as he was (top 3% of his med school class) River made him look like an idiot. In addition to psychic, she was probably prescient as well, as in knowing the doctor was killing his patient in Ariel. Could she sense the increased heartrate of a patient going into cardiac arrest? That's what I thought. Reading thoughts & memories, feeling the heartrate and breathing of others (maybe even feeling the beginning spasms of Petaline's labor in HoG?), having a thorough understanding of human nature and psychology, these are just some of her talents and of course it's all just too much for her. I think that even if she had not been messed up by the Alliance people playing with her brain she probably would have been pretty mentally unstable. Who hasn't had moments of feeling insecure and insignificant when considering the big question of Life, The Universe and Everything? Amplify that with complete understanding yet the complications of adolescence (River is only 17) and OMG! Poor Bayby! I have so much sympathy for her.

Some people juggle geese!

RIVERFLAN

Monday, December 31, 2007 12:51 AM (P)

Just for the record, precognition is just a branch of ESP (extra sensorary perception), or being psychic. Psychic (ESP) is a term that covers a wide range of abilities, the ones that I can remember right now being telepathy, telekinesis, precognition, seeing auras and/or ghosts, and astral projection.

I don't think River is be a precog- Joss wouldn't do that, she has enough data coming into her as it is, and it wouldn't be his style.

@)~*~*~*$)~*~*~*)~(*~*~*~($*~*~*~(@
http://fans4writers.com/ support the WGA writers strike!
#~%~~*~~~&~~~*~~%~#
My favorite quotes:

\~~~*~~^~~*~~~/
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature.

FREELANCERTEX

Monday, December 31, 2007 1:06 AM (P)

aaaaah, astral projection..

except that she is a precog..as has been stated by more than one character.
point of interest, she knew petaline was going into labor before petaline did.

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, December 31, 2007 8:50 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:
Just for the record, precognition is just a branch of ESP (extra sensorary perception), or being psychic. Psychic (ESP) is a term that covers a wide range of abilities, the ones that I can remember right now being telepathy, telekinesis, precognition, seeing auras and/or ghosts, and astral projection.

I don't think River is be a precog- Joss wouldn't do that, she has enough data coming into her as it is, and it wouldn't be his style.

Not sure how that gonna work. She's absorbing all the extra sensor input, but when she gets future data, she thinks, "oh, golly, that's the pre-cog stuff I'm gonna filter out, and not process because Joss doesn't understand ESP a bunch" and just doesn't allow the pre-cog input access to her brain? Not to mention, how does she know the pre-cog data is pre-cog and needs to be filtered if she doesn't allow it into her brain to be calculated as being future data, plus how exactly is she supposed to figure it is actually future data - most present day psychics have great difficulty differentiating current, past, and future input, not to mention living versus dead, they need much reflection and passage of days to understand which was future and past. Often they do not know the correct tiem reference until the then-future data presents itself in real time days or weeks later, as a current event.

RIVERFLAN

Monday, December 31, 2007 8:56 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Lacyflyer:
the big question of Life, The Universe and Everything?

If anyone cares, the answer is 42. The earth got destroyed before the Question to the ultimate answer could be revealed, but the answer is most definately 42.

@)~*~*~*$)~*~*~*)~(*~*~*~($*~*~*~(@
http://fans4writers.com/ support the WGA writers strike!
#~%~~*~~~&~~~*~~%~#
My favorite quotes:

\~~~*~~^~~*~~~/
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature.

MAL4PREZ

Monday, December 31, 2007 11:03 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Lacyflyer:
Simon said that, as gifited as he was (top 3% of his med school class) River made him look like an idiot.

Um... he was referring to River before she went to the Academy. She was good at physics and ballet and whatever else - that was clearly what he meant. There is no reason to assume he was referring to extra special abilities. We see none of that in her in the flashbacks.

Quote:
I think that even if she had not been messed up by the Alliance people playing with her brain she probably would have been pretty mentally unstable.

Why? In the early bits of the River Tam sessions, she's quite normal seeming. A healthy, normal, very very smart and talented girl. The instability pretty clearly comes along gradually, as they train her and cut into her head. If you want to argue that she was pre-disposed to it, that's something else. But to say she had it already... I'm not seeing itisall.

Oh - and welcome to the site Lacy Flyer! Debating Firefly is fun.

Freelancertex: "except that she is a precog..as has been stated by more than one character."

Really? Where? Seriously, I missed that.

JSF: "Not sure how that gonna work. She's absorbing all the extra sensor input, but when she gets future data, she thinks, "oh, golly, that's the pre-cog stuff I'm gonna filter out, and not process because Joss doesn't understand ESP a bunch"

Man oh man. Where are you getting all these ESP rules? I had no idea that it was so well established and mapped out!

- Seriously Doubting Mal4prez

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JEWELSTAITEFAN

Tuesday, January 1, 2008 7:27 AM (P)

How do you think Extra Sensory input is percieved? It comes in with some time stamp in the corner of the datastream?
How do you determine that any of your senses are current, or in chronological order, or in linear time format, or in compressed or refracted deviation, or in dream?

Most psychics who are greatly certain of their time reference are incomplete, that is they can only Extra Sense forward (future) or back (past) or current - their abilities are limited to one or very few parameters, so they have learned from experience where their focus lies.
If more than one timeframe is possible, the sensor must determine which direction in time the input is from.
How else did you think they could tell? Like watching a TV or video playback or something?
During testing/experimenting, the subjects can only learn when the researchers are careful to use time-specific criteria and not cross time references, so the direction of time as well as the distance into that time vector can be evaluated.
Nostradomus looked centuries into the future - how could he determine when it was, other than be viewing calendars or newspaper datelines.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Tuesday, January 1, 2008 8:54 AM (P)

Mal4prez, you sound unfamiliar with the practices and/or [rotocols.

Perhaps this would be a helpful intro, pay attention to the parts about "precognition."

http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/CIA-InitiatedRV.html

and maybe this one:
http://www.firedocs.com/remoteviewing/

MAL4PREZ

Tuesday, January 1, 2008 8:00 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
There is no reason to assume he was referring to extra special abilities. We see none of that in her in the flashbacks.

OK - I was soooo wrong about this! I just watched the R Tam sessions, and River does make the point, in Session 1, that she's always been very intuitive. She always knows who Simon likes and stuff like that.

Still, I take this to be a pre-existing tendency, and not a full-blown ability. Certainly her innate sensing abilities are greatly expanded at the Academy, and she becomes crazy because of what they do to her.

JSF: I looked those sites over. I only saw two mentions of precognition in the first, and both were in passing. Now, I'll admit straight up that I don't think ESP is real, and a few vague studies don't convince me. I could be wrong. Maybe ESP does exist. But I've never seen it and never seen anything to make me think it's a proven thing, and especially I've never seen anything to convince me that the process behind it is as well known and defined as you say.

Whatever. What I do get out of the CIA papers is that even if ESP is real, no one knows how it works. There is absolutely no reason why mind-reading and knowing the future happen in the same mechanism. In fact, I think it'd be damned unlikely that they do. A brain is a physical, chemical structure, one that exists in the here and now, and a person's thoughts, memories, and emotional state are written there. The future... well, now you're talking a whole different deal. The future doesn't exist. Precog is a lot harder to pass off as sci-fi.

For that reason, I think Joss is making sense to not have precog. And again, I see no sign of it in the series. The only thing close is Peteline going into labor, but that doesn't have to be precog at all. River spoke up a second before Petaline did, but that doesn't mean Petaline didn't know. Most likely, Petaline felt the contraction and breathed off the pain for a second before she could speak. Check the timing and look at Petaline's expression in the episode - it fits.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Wednesday, January 2, 2008 5:50 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
There is absolutely no reason why mind-reading and knowing the future happen in the same mechanism. In fact, I think it'd be damned unlikely that they do. A brain is a physical, chemical structure, one that exists in the here and now, and a person's thoughts, memories, and emotional state are written there. The future... well, now you're talking a whole different deal. The future doesn't exist. Precog is a lot harder to pass off as sci-fi.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

OK, I see where you're splitting up. You are differentiating between proximity mind reading and remote sensing, and you seem to consider one to exist and the other to not exist, and they are seperate skillsets or talents, and are not related to each other - if I understand you correctly.

So, you seem to consider the possibility of proximity mind reading to be less outrageous, and more likiely than the other to exist. This may or may not include reading the memory, so you could effectively understand seeing the past, as long as it was experienced by the person being read, thus in their memory. This type of reading (if I understand you) would not include reading, sensing, or communicating with the dead or with spirits.

The concept of remote sensing, even in real time (reading the mind -or sensing the vision - of somebody in another State or another continent), you consider seperate and you consider it not possible, it doesn't exist. Therefore, if you do not feel current time remote sensing is possible, then remote sensing in different times (forward or backward) also would not be included as possibility.

Is that correct?

To summarize in pop-culture terms, you would consider the Ghost Whisperer to be fantasy because the communication is with non-living entities, so mind reading (sensing the chemical reactions and interactions in a nearby brain) would not apply to the dead. And you also consider "Next" to be fantasy because you do not feel remote sensing is possible, even if it were in real time (although the Next protagonist is severely limited to future-only sensing).

i only linked to those as an intro to the concepts for you, they are not full descriptions.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, January 2, 2008 8:49 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
OK, I see where you're splitting up. You are differentiating between proximity mind reading and remote sensing, and you seem to consider one to exist and the other to not exist, and they are seperate skillsets or talents, and are not related to each other - if I understand you correctly.

Not quite. I don't think any of this actually exists, I'm just pondering what makes sense in the context of Joss's fictional universe, and wondering the average viewer/reader will believe in their sci-fi.

Quote:
So, you seem to consider the possibility of proximity mind reading to be less outrageous, and more likiely than the other to exist.

Yes. One sci-fi book I read explained mind-reading based on quantum physics - that the state of things in one's neurons sets up a standing field that another person might be able to sense. In that way, whatever is in one person's mind can be read by another. This would include their memory, so in some sense the past, but only as the first person experienced and remembers it.

The idea being: you are able to access your own thoughts and memories and emotions through some (somewhat mysterious) system of electrical and chemical signals. So these things in your mind exist in physical reality. Perhaps there are ways that other people can access these things as well.

Again, I don't really believe it's possible for someone to stand next to you and read your mind - there's too much background noise to pick up that small a signal. But I can be convinced to believe it if I'm being told a fun story.

I can be convinced to believe a lot more too, for the sake of entertainment.

But I don't think this "remote sensing" or "precog" fits what I've seen of Joss's Firefly verse. It fit Buffy and Angel, but not Firefly.

Quote:
This type of reading (if I understand you) would not include reading, sensing, or communicating with the dead or with spirits.

Those things are not physically written in the brain. They do not exist in the material realm. To me - in the context of story-telling - they are solidly fantasy rather than sci-fi (I'm overlapping threads LOL!) You know... unless some clever writer comes up with good pseudo-science to explain it. The Matrix did a bit of this. Vampires and deja vu and such.

Quote:
The concept of remote sensing, even in real time (reading the mind -or sensing the vision - of somebody in another State or another continent), you consider seperate and you consider it not possible, it doesn't exist. Therefore, if you do not feel current time remote sensing is possible, then remote sensing in different times (forward or backward) also would not be included as possibility.

Hey, that all may be possible, but I've seen nothing to convince me of it, and there's no plce for it in the laws of physics as they're currently written.

Of course, Joss isn't huge on the laws of physics, so even all these ESP things were real with solid, proven laws behind them, there's no reason to suppose he'd pay attention LOL!

Quote:
the Ghost Whisperer .... Next protagonist ...

Sorry - I know neither of these!

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JEWELSTAITEFAN

Thursday, January 3, 2008 5:16 AM (P)

The Ghost Whisperer was a TV show in the last few years starring Jennifer Love Hewitt, IIRC. Haven't seen the show, but read the synopsis and understood she communicates with the dead, and much of the technical consultanting was with psychics of this specialty. The demonstration type shows that the real practitioners have had are difficult to sell because TV shows can produce fiction in the stead of documentary reporting, so it might be an easier sell on Tv to just pretend it's fiction/fantasy.

Next was a film from last summer, starring Nicholas Cage and Jessica Biel. He was a remote senser who was limited to solely future readings, I don't recall he could do present time readings or past readings - or perhaps he trained himself to only concentrate on future sensing.

I really should have also mentioned Suspect Zero, which was one of the best films I've seen regarding remote sensing. Not knowing much about it in advance, I was well into the movie before I realized what it was about (or, the background of the protagonist, played by Benn Kingsley). It also starred Aaron Eckhart and Carrie Anne Moss, although that was one of her most dissapointing roles I've seen her in. I was also disapointed in the ending, but it still provided great exposure and fantastic understanding of the practice. It did still have too much "hollywood" crud added in, to make it more "exciting" and hyped up.

LEIASKY

Thursday, January 3, 2008 5:50 PM (P)

>I haven't quite figured out why she cuts Jayne - just because he was rude to Simon?

Popular opinion is because he is wearing a Blue Sun t-shirt and they were the financial backers or some such in the Academy . . . or some of the 'secrets' she gleaned were about Blue Sun's less than legal activities. . .

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, January 3, 2008 6:05 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I was also disapointed in the ending, but it still provided great exposure and fantastic understanding of the practice. It did still have too much "hollywood" crud added in, to make it more "exciting" and hyped up.

I see the difference here. I see sci-fi movies and books as entertainment and possible social/political statements, not as opportunities to market and educate the general public as to the practical aspects of ESP. But then, I don't believe in ESP.

Hey, to each his/her own!

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LEIASKY

Thursday, January 3, 2008 8:04 PM (P)

Agreed, Mal4Prez.

Take National Treasure 2 for example. Great, entertaining movie. Not in any way plausible.

I wouldn't look to a movie to provide accurate information.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

ASARIAN

Friday, January 4, 2008 2:24 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

There is absolutely no reason why mind-reading and knowing the future happen in the same mechanism. In fact, I think it'd be damned unlikely that they do. A brain is a physical, chemical structure, one that exists in the here and now, and a person's thoughts, memories, and emotional state are written there. The future... well, now you're talking a whole different deal. The future doesn't exist. Precog is a lot harder to pass off as sci-fi.

Is it bad that what you say makes perfect sense to me? :)

A word on ESP, first. RiverFlan, where did ya read telekinesis is considered ESP? It really says that? Well, the book is wrong! :) Telekinesis, lit. 'causing movement from a distance' (presumably by the psyche, hence probably better known as 'psychokinesis') is not something I would, my own self, file under 'perception' (extra or otherwise). It's all in the realm of parapsychology, though.

I believe mind reading exists, yes. But I'm also of the belief it has nothing to do with electromagnetic signals of the brain and such. To me, it's more a spiritual matter: 'spiritual' in the literal sense, as in pertaining to the human spirit (or soul, rather, encased in a spirit body, to be precise). I would ere call it soul-to-soul communication. Soul-perceptions. I think every human has em; for instance, in varying degrees of sensibility, we can all sense it when someone is staring us in the back. And I think they can be developed too, but I digress.

From books I read on parapsychology, when I was still a wee child, I recall astronaut Edgar Mitchell used Zener cards to test for telepathy in an unofficial experiment during the Apollo 14 mission to the moon in 1971. And one of the (expected) outcomes was that distance doesn't matter. So, spiritual phenomenon or no, at least I believe it occurs extra-dimensional: on a plane where distance either doesn't matter or takes on a completely different meaning. And it don't surprise me none the CIA is clueless; how they expect to find something so subtle? They can't even find Bin Laden. :)

Telekinesis I find plausible, too. I still, to this date, have to chuckle when I think back on what Hofstadter once cleverly remarked on the subject: "Mind over matter, or matter over mind? If you don't mind, it doesn't matter!" :) LOL. I actually think it's mind over matter.

Precog stuff, well that's indeed an entirely different beast. Assuming it even exists, there's no law says you'd have to perceive it in an extra-sensory fashion: because 'being' in the future, you could just perceive it with your regular senses. So, the question is more, is time travel possible? Future and politics, little girl. Situation is always fluid. :) Okay, the whole thing goes: "The future is not set. There is no fate but what we make for ourselves." Oh wait, got confused again. :) At any rate, I doubt precog is really possible. For one, because even the act of seeing the future changes said future! To measure something is to disturb it (much lilke you cannot stick a thermometer in a bath tub to measure how hot the water is, without, in doing so, disturing said temperature). So, foreseeing the future changes that future insofar that when the foreseen moment arrives, it's already different from the 'original' in that you have the memory of having seen it before.

Okay, now my brain hurts. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

CHRISTHECYNIC

Friday, January 4, 2008 3:02 AM (P)

I'm just going to throw this out here and I'm sure someone can tell me why it's wrong.

River can read people's minds. River has an incredible brain. With the information she has available to her and the brain she uses to interpret that information couldn't she simply be very good at predicting the future.

There's a difference between knowing the future (precognition) and just guessing.

In Ariel the natural assumption is that she saw a little while into the future and saw that the person was going to die, but there were two people who, if you combined their knowledge, would have seen it coming. The one who gave the patient the wrong medication knew what medication the patient had, Simon (and likely several others) knew it was the wrong one. River had access to both of their brains, couldn't she has simply worked it out.

River seemed to know Mal was coming back in Safe, but any one of us could have made that prediction equally well knowing what we know of Mal (though the timing was harder to predict.)

River knew that Petaline was having a baby before Petaline did, but if she was in Petaline's head and either Simon's or one of the whores who had given birth before it could be reasonable for her to know what was coming based on sensations Petaline wasn't able to interpret.

River said, "Fire," in Out of Gas but given what she seems to know about ships, that Kaylee had been fairly vocal about which part wasn't working, and the "hiccup" that could be an educated guess too.

There are definitely times when it seems River is a few seconds (or more) ahead of the rest of the 'verse, but I'm thinking that it could be that she's more like a chess player looking a few moves ahead than like Usul seeing the endgame that's already been written.

On the other hand she could just see the future.

ASARIAN

Friday, January 4, 2008 3:08 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:

River can read people's minds. River has an incredible brain. With the information she has available to her and the brain she uses to interpret that information couldn't she simply be very good at predicting the future.

There's a difference between knowing the future (precognition) and just guessing.

In Ariel the natural assumption is that she saw a little while into the future and saw that the person was going to die, but there were two people who, if you combined their knowledge, would have seen it coming. The one who gave the patient the wrong medication knew what medication the patient had, Simon (and likely several others) knew it was the wrong one. River had access to both of their brains, couldn't she has simply worked it out.

River seemed to know Mal was coming back in Safe, but any one of us could have made that prediction equally well knowing what we know of Mal (though the timing was harder to predict.)

River knew that Petaline was having a baby before Petaline did, but if she was in Petaline's head and either Simon's or one of the whores who had given birth before it could be reasonable for her to know what was coming based on sensations Petaline wasn't able to interpret.

River said, "Fire," in Out of Gas but given what she seems to know about ships, that Kaylee had been fairly vocal about which part wasn't working, and the "hiccup" that could be an educated guess too.

There are definitely times when it seems River is a few seconds (or more) ahead of the rest of the 'verse, but I'm thinking that it could be that she's more like a chess player looking a few moves ahead than like Usul seeing the endgame that's already been written.

On the other hand she could just see the future.

I don't disagree on any particular point. In fact, I see it exactly so.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

PLATONIST

Friday, January 4, 2008 5:15 AM (P)

I always thought Firefly writers fell victim (and hoped we did, too) to the 10% Brain Usage Myth for their watery explanation of River's psychic abilities coupled with her high cognitive function. Of course, there is little scientific evidence to support such claims of human cranial capacity compared to our actual brain usage, which for most people I encounter is about 3 percent (purely, an estimation on my part).

Telepathy, precog, kinesis, etc, seem to be common day abilities of futuristic humans in alternative universes. I do think River may be the first character, I've run across though, to have a Mensa sized IQ and Level 5 Dance Dance Revolution moves.

In short, Joss and company know zilch about brain function and psychic abilities and didn't bother to consult with any expert or with a parapsychologist, except to watch Bill Murray in Ghostbusters.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, January 7, 2008 6:21 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:

I believe mind reading exists, yes. But I'm also of the belief it has nothing to do with electromagnetic signals of the brain and such. To me, it's more a spiritual matter: 'spiritual' in the literal sense, as in pertaining to the human spirit (or soul, rather, encased in a spirit body, to be precise). I would ere call it soul-to-soul communication. Soul-perceptions. I think every human has em; for instance, in varying degrees of sensibility, we can all sense it when someone is staring us in the back. And I think they can be developed too, but I digress.

From books I read on parapsychology, when I was still a wee child, I recall astronaut Edgar Mitchell used Zener cards to test for telepathy in an unofficial experiment during the Apollo 14 mission to the moon in 1971. And one of the (expected) outcomes was that distance doesn't matter. So, spiritual phenomenon or no, at least I believe it occurs extra-dimensional: on a plane where distance either doesn't matter or takes on a completely different meaning.

Precog stuff, well that's indeed an entirely different beast. Assuming it even exists, there's no law says you'd have to perceive it in an extra-sensory fashion: because 'being' in the future, you could just perceive it with your regular senses. So, the question is more, is time travel possible?

You are assuming precog requires your own presence in the future, which would require time-travel. Time travel has major problems in terms of physical transmittal.
Remote viewing does not engage the transferrance of being to another place and/or time, but only a focused type of mind reading - mostly looking through the target person's eyes, sensing their optical input. If you are viewing the optical input of another, it does not matter how far away they are, and it has also been proven to not matter if it is in the future.

From what you have described above as your understnading, this also allows the reading of spirits/souls no longer living. So psychics who commune with the deceased are also included here.

Have any of you seen that primetime show that "investigated" technical remote viewing? It was about 8 or 10 years ago on ABC or NBC, some show like "48hours" or somesuch? I was amazed that a big network would put that on primetime, but they covered themselves pretty well. They did do a "live" demonstration, although being television, they could have edited a fictional account, but they stated they did not.

ASARIAN

Monday, January 7, 2008 8:55 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

You are assuming precog requires your own presence in the future, which would require time-travel. Time travel has major problems in terms of physical transmittal.

No, you are assuming I assumed that. :) I just said: "There's no law says you'd HAVE to perceive it in an extra-sensory fashion: because 'being' in the future, you COULD just perceive it with your regular senses."

As for time and place, yes, I think looking into the future inevitably means you are, in essence, 'there' -- weird as that sounds. Since you're 'there' when seeing things, the "physical transmittal" part is simply absent, or has been skipped, rather. It's like seeing myself at work, 1 day in the future, while now sitting on the couch: I would, that next day, simply have traveled to work, in my car, in regular fashion. It's just that tapping into the future places me after that time, already at my desk. I know this is mind-boggling stuff, but I don't think looking into the future -- if it were at all possible, which I highly doubt -- would mean I'd "physically" have to zap out to that place: as it's simple NOT a matter of place, but of time.

Personally, I'm all for "looking through the target person's eyes, sensing their optical input," but, IMHO, that just shifts the question of the actual perception of the future to that third-party. In other words: instead of directly asking how I could perceive it, the question then becomes: how does he/she see it?

"It does not matter how far away they are,"

Agreed.

"It has also been proven to not matter if it is in the future."

Come to think of it, I actually DO rememeber that. With these Zener card experiments, you'd sometimes see a delay, as it were, where someone might predict the right sequence, but not of the current batch, yet of that of the next, for instance (or otherwise predict slightly out of sync). I do maintain though, with mal4prez, that precog is fundamentally different from 'simple' mind-reading. Though, as to a psychic, both abilities might come as easily, they've gotta be based on some fundamentally different principles.

"From what you have described above as your understnading, this also allows the reading of spirits/souls no longer living. So psychics who commune with the deceased are also included here."

Avtually, yes. :) That is precisely what I believe; a very perceptive conclusion on your end! There is, far as I know, when it comes to psychic ability, essentially no difference between mortal-to-mortal, and mortal-to-spirit communication (if we call a 'spirit' here 'a person living in the spirit world'). Both are governed by the Laws of Rapport and Communication (and, sideways, the Law of Attraction, which dictates that like attracts like). Fascinating stuff, really. But I'm not entirely sure a Firefly board is the entirely proper venue for discussing matters that border so close on religion. Next thing I know, people might come out and say I have too much snow on my roof. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, January 7, 2008 9:23 AM (P)

Don't see how it requires tangent arguments regarding religion - although Sheppard Book is a good enough reason to have it here.

Furthermore, Joss states that Firefly/Serenity is River's story, the story of this crew through her view. Therefore, this is prezactly the place for discussions of River's abilities or possible talents.

Perhaps you could explain - how to you percieve the mechanics or instruments of "precog," and how do you consider it different from "remote viewing" - even in the future? How do you see the connection and control working, or being different? How do you precisely target a connection to a desired time/place/person?

Ooops, just reread that again. Are you saying that (IF) precog is possible, then it is only possible from your personal perspective? Only from your own future experience? So that it can only occur in a time and place when you are there? And no precog can exist past your lifetime (after you are dead)? If so, how would you explain Nostradomus, for instance? How about precog of a place you would never have been, you consider that impossible?

ASARIAN

Monday, January 7, 2008 3:01 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Perhaps you could explain - how to you percieve the mechanics or instruments of "precog," and how do you consider it different from "remote viewing" - even in the future? How do you see the connection and control working, or being different?

I consider mind-reading an almost 'trivial' function, in the sense that it takes not much of a stretch to imagine that thought-transmissions take place via a different dimension, so that 'distances' may be radically shorter from what we're used to. Or that we're, on some level, never really separated from one another to begin with (!). There are, what, like like eleven dimensions anyway? Eleven, important number, prime number; one goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. :) I just mean that, though we don't know yet how mind-to-mind communication works, imagining that it could work does not require a complete rewrit of the laws of known physics.

The ability to foresee the future, however, bends the mind in ways that riddle the brain with holes. :) The movie Paycheck, for example, was predicated on the idea of building a "laser-enhanced lens" which is powerful enough to see around the curvature of the universe. Because if you could see around a curve that went on forever, you would end up back where you started, looking at yourself, except not looking back at yourself now, in the present, but you'd be looking at yourself in the future. Of course, such a lense does not exist. But if it did, you'd actually see EVERYTHING in this craphill 'verse (I believe there was a Star Trek Voyager episode about that once, too). Thing of it is, though, that I'm pretty sure you wouldn't really see the future, alas, but the past. Imagine the universe were like a sphere, and we'd be on the equator, being able to look, say, 10 billion light years in either direction. Then, if you could see all the way around the universe, and back again, what you'd be seeing were events that happened 40 billion years ago! That makes seeing the future a long wait for a train don't come. Best of luck, though. :)

Hmm, just had an interesting thought. What if you were to go faster than light? Yes, that's not possible, far as we know; but work with me here. You'd be travelling backwards in time, right? Ok, that don't do you much good, as you wanted to go forward. But, to a psychic person in the past, you and your knowledge represent the future! So, what if what we call the 'now' is actually someone's past, and precog is just a manner of psychically tapping into the consciousness of the one who, from his perspective, is traveling back? It wouldn't actually have to be a person traveling backwards: could be particles (tachyons?) or some such. In other words, something that, by the act of going back, left a trail of gleanable future?

Okay, here's is where the brain cramps are setting in again! :) The flames of ignorance burn without pain! as I heard spoken today. What we really need here, I reckon, is Mr. Universe himself, Citizen. He's the only one who can really discuss these matters, and still come out looking shiny at the end of it. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam