Aurap..siggy ..it some CFR...
POSTED BY: kaneman
UPDATED: Friday, November 9, 2007 02:01
VIEWED: 13749
PAGE 2 of 3
Quote:
citizen wrote:
Thursday, November 01, 2007 00:25
You know Au, initially I took what you said head on, but I realised, there really is no point while you're being this unreasonable. You've stopped merely Strawmaning my argument, and moved on to outright lying.
I've not been unreasonable in the least. Nor have I lied one iota. You just have nothing to fall back on.
Quote:Sorry, fear isn't the issue what so ever. Real life people are being brain washed into believing it's perfectly fine to blow up statues of Buddha which were 100's of yrs old, that it's fine to slaughter filmmakers in cold blood because some religion is somehow offended, or that a fatwah issued calling for the assasination of an author for a book he's written is perfectly in line w/ how religion is suppose to be run. Very real people are committing VERY REAL crimes here, and you're trying to dismiss my reaction to these crimes as mere 'fear mongering'. Absurd on your part.
Ron Paul isn't the issue, Muslims aren't really the issue, fear is the issue.
And never, not once, have I suggested in the slightest that you or anyone stop living your life, stop going about your daily routine, or go out of your way to harm, injure ,insult or deprive anyone of their rights, but simply to look around the world and see what's happening.
Knowledge is power.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:Well, it kinda is....
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Sorry, fear isn't the issue what so ever.
Remember the movie Jaws? Peeps by the thousands avoided swimming at the beach because of A MOVIE.
A MOVIE.
Reel peeps doing bad stuff in the name of Islam are out there.
But know what?
You have a better chance of getting bit by a shark than blown up by their ICBM's.
Yeah, it's fear all right.
Duh duh duh duh Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Over the past six decades or so the United States has prolly been responsible for killing more innocent civilians than any other entity, all in the name of "anticommunism".
That's quite possibly the biggest misstatement/lie/ this site has ever been witness to. You're clearly overlooking Stalin's Gulags, Pol Pot's Khmere Rouge, N.Korea, China, Cuba.... my god, it's not even fair to go on.
Quote:Poland would certainly disagree , as would other countries in the former Eastern block.
We've cozied up to and brought to power all kinds of nasty tyrants INCLUDING the Shah of Iran, the Taliban, and Saddam Hussein, knowing full well what they were doing to "their people". Aside from the observation that fear makes people do stupid things like support the Taliban, what would you say about our "religion" of anticommunism which has NOT lead to democracy in most of the affected countries?
Quote:
BTW_ I'll repeat what I've said many times before: 9-11 didn't frighten me. Why? Because I was expecting it. I acknowledge that there are people "out there" who hate us with the white-hot hatred that only irrationality and religion can create. But you do not fight the irrational by being yourselves irrational. You have to appeal to the remaining people who have yet to be swayed, and you DON'T do that by rampaging through their world, creating chaos and death and poverty everywhere you go, especially if they had nothing to do with the offense that set you off. We've got enough enemies. Why create more?
Actually, we don't have that many enemies. Most folks love us, or are indifferent. It's the very few radicals which think we're suppose to cater to their every whim who don't have a damn clue that have the problem. I wont' continue to repeat myself to those who refuse to listen.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Well, it kinda is....
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Sorry, fear isn't the issue what so ever.
Remember the movie Jaws? Peeps by the thousands avoided swimming at the beach because of A MOVIE.
A MOVIE.
Reel peeps doing bad stuff in the name of Islam are out there.
But know what?
You have a better chance of getting bit by a shark than blown up by their ICBM's.
Yeah, it's fear all right.
Duh duh duh duh Chrisisall
Only the shark in Jaws was FAKE. The Islamo-nutcases are very real.
We're gonna need a bigger boat- Raptor
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:It also sent people off killing Sharks in their thousands, they have more to fear from us, go figure.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Remember the movie Jaws? Peeps by the thousands avoided swimming at the beach because of A MOVIE.
A MOVIE.
Quote:You've got more chance of turning into a tap dancing mongoose right now than being hit by one of their ICBM's.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Reel peeps doing bad stuff in the name of Islam are out there.
But know what?
You have a better chance of getting bit by a shark than blown up by their ICBM's.
I'm done with you Au. You've not been reasonable in the least. Anyone with half a brain can tell how your characterisation of my Argument is nothing like what I said. I say Black == Black, you come back with "So you think Black is white huh". It's clear you live in your own little world, please stay there.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:If you mean that's what's happening on this site, yes.
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Do as I say not as I do?
If you mean that's what I'm doing, no. I know I've been snippy at times, but I have always tried to be humorous about it, although that may not have been clear. I have never called anyone a name, nor become hostile in response to baiting. In fact, my above post addresses Rap as a *person*, not a fucktard or an idiot, because I believe he is neither. I do seriously wonder if he's unhappy, because that's the only way I can account for his attitude. I know that when I'm unhappy all I can perceive in other people are threats, and I become overly defensive and go on the attack. I thought maybe he's doing the same.
Look, I'm very much trying to understand him, and you. I want to find common ground between us, and what we really want in the world. I'd like to get to know the good man underneath Rap's rants. He may have turned to the Dark Side of anger and hate (kinda like Rue), but as I said, I think he's done it for the most honorable of reasons. I think he wants to do good, wants to make the world better.
Other things:
- I never called anyone a psychopath.
- "...shut the fuck up. Stick a sock in your bloviating blow hole." Yes, I think that's sullying. I think that's an ugliness I see no where else on this site, and I'm curious as to how this language became acceptable in RWED and no where else. I honestly want to know if this is a proper way to talk to people in real life, and if not, why is okay here?
- I did read Frem's post, and apart from the "fucktard" bit, I think he did well at trying to remove his own emotion from the equation, and to not escalate the argument. Which was why Rap's response shocked me. It was just so unnecessary.
Rue - I feel your pain. This is aggrevating. But keeping calm in the face of endless aggrevation is the point. That's the beginning, middle and end of the challenge. The whole thing. If you can't do that, you've lost yourself.
You're not alone. I think the majority of the world has lost themselves in this way. *sigh*
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Maybe I'm wrong to single you out Rap. I just read your post and started wondering if you treat people in real life the way you treat people here. Made me wonder what is the root of this hostility. Are you at all happy? Does this anger serve you well? Does it help you get your way? Make friends? Does it solve any problems? Really?
Yeah, I'd say you're wrong to single me out. Definatly. The root of the hostility ? I don't instigate such diatribes, but I do reply to them in equal and in sometimes greater ferver. As for elsewhere, you're getting mighty personal over just a political message board on a Firefly fan site. Others know I'm not like this all the time, as my post outside RWED will show. I'll even go so far as to say Chrisisall will vouch that I'm far more congenial elsewhere.
Let me just say I identify with Mal, and leave it at that.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:Hey look - common ground! So do I!
Let me just say I identify with Mal...
OK, my venting is done. I'll leave you all alone now. Sorry for the hijack.
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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Mal4prez, that does deserve a response.
First off, I'll be honest and state for the record that I've said as much or worse in the other direction - although I do tend to stay on the topic at hand if at all possible, verbal virulence notwithstanding.
When someone actually participates in a genuine discussion, instead of spouting voluminous amounts of religious, racial or partisan hatred, for my part I'll actually discuss it, even if we end up disagreeing... it's when someone wants to bang their hate drum and stick their fingers in their ears and scream to drown out all rational debate cause they don't wanna hear it, that the verbal boot party comes out on my end.
Cause some folk here don't want debate, they wanna run off anyone and everyone who disagrees with em, claim some kind of "victory" about it, and then have a mutual buttkissing party as the board dies from lack of content - I've seen it many other times and places, believe it, and so refuse to be run off or leave.
It's that "just one voice" principle - there's likely folk who share the viewpoints and opinions I express, but very few people dare post here anymore because of the outright hostility that has become all too commonplace, and the sockpuppetry that has gone on at times causes any new poster to be viewed with an unfortunate level of suspicion, and it is for the folk who do not dare post that I stand and deliver, even if I am alone in doing so.
Part of that is when folk try to pull a mask of reason and neutrality over an agenda of hate, fear and discord, I also feel a certain obligation to start poking holes in it, so the truth of the matter comes shining through... I do not hide my biases or agenda, in fact I go out of my way to make it explicitly clear if I feel it isn't getting across.
And I do like actual discussion, but there's little of it here anymore when every thread seems to fall to some tit-for-tat partisan snark that contributes nothing whatsoever to the discussion at hand and totals the signal to noise ratio....
Still, there are people who discuss, and reason, and are capable of examining a topic or situation from other angles than their own - AnthonyT and I went round and round pretty good on picking apart the UC Tasering incident, and while we may not have agreed, it was a good discussion and a learning experience, imop.
I wouldn't want anyone to leave, offensive that some may be - cause I wanna get inside their head and understand how and why they believe and act as they do, even if I find that understanding repellant, I still wanna know - cause that is the first real step to ever getting along with them... not that I would ever be very good at it, but one might consider it at some point a defensive measure.
Cause we live in a world fulla terrible strange folk, makin our lives a little more interesting than we planned, yes ?
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:My point was that if a phony shark could cause so much fear, that a few really dangerous peeps could (and have) even more so. Alarmists on the left would have you believe Bush caused 911 to happen so he could consolidate power. Ones on the right would have you believe terrorists are about to destroy our nation tomorrow- it works both ways.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Only the shark in Jaws was FAKE. The Islamo-nutcases are very real.
Quote:[vouch]Outside of here, I've found AU to be nothing but an agreeable FF and Buffy fan, and I enjoy our exchanges.[/vouch]
I'll even go so far as to say Chrisisall will vouch that I'm far more congenial elsewhere.
Testimonial-like Chrisisall
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Quote:I overlook nothing. However, didn't we drop a couple of nukes on civilian cities, killing about 200,000? Not to stop the Japanese, but to show the Russians that we were crazy sons of bitches who could, and would, drop them in their tracks if they tried to advance across the Pacific? We backed "anticommunist" Gnl Suharto who killed about a million of his people. Our little Vietnames adventure killed 2.5-5 million Vietnamese civilians. In Guatemala, we armed and trained the government that killed 200,000+ Mayans, creating "the silent Holocaust"
Over the past six decades or so the United States has prolly been responsible for killing more innocent civilians than any other entity, all in the name of "anticommunism".- Signy
That's quite possibly the biggest misstatement/lie/ this site has ever been witness to. You're clearly overlooking Stalin's Gulags, Pol Pot's Khmere Rouge, N.Korea, China, Cuba.... my god, it's not even fair to go on.
Quote:
Their 2-year series of atrocities is sometimes called 'The Silent Holocaust'.... demonstrating an aggressive racist component of extreme cruelty that led to extermination en masse of defenceless Mayan communities, including children, women and the elderly, through methods whose cruelty has outraged the moral conscience of the civilised world.' Working methodically across the Mayan region... Children were often beaten against walls, or thrown alive into pits where the bodies of adults were later thrown; they were also tortured and raped. Victims of all ages often had their limbs amputated, or were impaled and left to die slowly. Others were doused in petrol and set alight, or disembowelled while still alive. Yet others were shot repeatedly, or tortured and shut up alone to die in pain. The wombs of pregnant women were cut open. Women were routinely raped while being tortured. Women - now widows - who lived could scarcely survive the trauma: 'the presence of sexual violence in the social memory of the communities has become a source of collective shame'. Covert operations were also carried out by military units called Commandos, backed up by the army and military intelligence. They carried out planned executions and forced 'disappearances'. Death squads (some of which in time came under the army's umbrella), largely made up of criminals, murdered suspected 'subversives' or their allies; under dramatic names, such as 'The White Hand' or 'Eye for an Eye', they terrorised the country and contributed to the deliberate strategy of psychological warfare and intimidation.
Throughout the period of the genocide, the USA continued to provide military support to the Guatemalan government, mainly in the form of arms and equipment. The infamous guerrilla training school, the School of the Americas in Georgia USA, continued to train Guatemalan officers notorious for human rights abuses; the CIA worked with Guatemalan intelligence officers, some of whom were on the CIA payroll despite known human rights violations.
www.ppu.org.uk/genocide/g_guatemala1.html
We supported, trained and armed death squads in Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Columbia, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Haiti, Honduras, Iran, Iraq, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, the Philippines, South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, and Uruguay. Adding up the deaths attributed to our Central and South American (aside from Guatemala) intervention brings me to about a half-million. Also note that these countries mostly do not YET have stable or prosperous democracies. www.serendipity.li/cia/death_squads.htm#Central
That doesn't include the people that we've so far killed in Iraq.
Okay, we're not up there with the 25 million or so who died in Mao's Great Leap Forward or the 10 million who died under Stalin but we're up in the 5-10 million range.
I don't blame the USA entirely; it's really the corporations who wanted all of this to happen.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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You stated in the past 60 yrs, fighting communism.
Japan wasn't communist, wasn't in the past 60 yrs, but WAS during a war which we didn't start, but DID end. Sorry, those #'s don't count.
You don't think that Russia ( the Soviet Union ) did the exact same thing, only FOR communism? Funny how you only want to talk about 1/2 of the coin, but not the flip side.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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It's about cleaning up OUR mess first, Auraptor. And right now we've got a lot of fence-mending to do.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
It's about cleaning up OUR mess first, Auraptor. And right now we've got a lot of fence-mending to do.
I fully agree. We must finish building the fence along the border and better control who we let into this country.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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So, Rap, is your contention that we need to fight them 'cause they're evil and we're not ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So, Rap, is your contention that we need to fight them 'cause they're evil and we're not ?
You're kidding, right ?
Algiers -
Amsterdamn -
Bali -
Beslan -
Italy (honor killing) -
NYC -
Pakistan -
Spain -
All the above were done in the name of Allah.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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AU...you're starting to make me think of PirateNews' tactics... those pictures get an emotional response, but pictures of CIA trained Contras filling mass graves with women and children would do the same.
Stick to conversing to make your point.
Thinks he's a moderator Chrisisall
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Rap - you didn't answer my question.
I figure the Jihadists have killed maybe 7000, including and since 9/11. Let's say 4000 for 9/11, 500 in Bali, 500 in Beslan, and a couple of thousand for places and people we don't hear about - Indonesians, Afghanis, etc. Now, I know for a fact that as many civilians have been killed by US air-strikes in Afghanistan as by Islamists and warlords together. And the figure for the US attacking Iraq (which didn't actually do anything to the US) - let's take that as a VERY conservative 70,000.
Blowing up the Buddha statues is probably cancelled out by the looting of Iraq museums under the eye of the US AND by US troops. Of course the US is also responsible for the complete destruction of Iraq's infrastructure.
Let's put the US toll at a VERY conservative 70,000 and give the physical destruction category to the US. Who is more evil ?
You tell me.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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I think arguing "who is more evil, the US or Terrorists" is a bit pointless.
In fact it's clear AU can't think clearly on this subject*, I could post pictures of people covered in blood from attacks perpetrated by Christians, Hindus, fluffy rabbits with big sharp pointy teeth, and say "All this done in the name of GOD - GANESHA - CARROTS!" Like the act is representative of the entire religion**.
It's interesting that conspiracy theory thinking isn't limited to the standard conspiracy theories. If you look at his argument (if indeed one is feeling generous enough to call it that) and his use of language, you'll notice it is eerily similar to a post by PN, perhaps with a lot less research. He is also equally vitriolic and insulting if his views are challenged (and evidently doesn't realise how he is acting, mores the pity). It's cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias raised to the level of an art form in an extreme.
*if AU replies to this post he'll probably say "So you're saying I can't think clearly because I don't think the US is more evil than the terrorists", it's the obvious strawman.
**This will probably become "so you deny -some atrocity attributed to Muslims- ever happened!"
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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I suspect Rap has left the building - well, the thread. Sigh.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Auraptor, people on the wrong side of our guns look at US like we look at radical Muslims. Our "reasons" to invade another country, turn it upside down and cause vast civilian death and suffering make as little sense to our victims as the jihadist's reasons for killing. Jihadists talk about the "injustice" of the American presence, while dealing injustice. We talk about "fighting terrorism, freedom and democracy" while dealing death pretty much at random. Don't you catch the irony of that?
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rap - you didn't answer my question.
I figure the Jihadists have killed maybe 7000, including and since 9/11. Let's say 4000 for 9/11, 500 in Bali, 500 in Beslan, and a couple of thousand for places and people we don't hear about - Indonesians, Afghanis, etc. Now, I know for a fact that as many civilians have been killed by US air-strikes in Afghanistan as by Islamists and warlords together. And the figure for the US attacking Iraq (which didn't actually do anything to the US) - let's take that as a VERY conservative 70,000.
Blowing up the Buddha statues is probably cancelled out by the looting of Iraq museums under the eye of the US AND by US troops. Of course the US is also responsible for the complete destruction of Iraq's infrastructure.
Let's put the US toll at a VERY conservative 70,000 and give the physical destruction category to the US. Who is more evil ?
You tell me.
They are, and it's not even close.
The 'looting' of the Iraqi museums was greatly exaggerated. Most of the valuable items were already gone or locked away, so that point is moot.
I'm just stunned that so many can see the evidence right before their eyes and still deny the problem is Islmaic terrorism. It sure as hell isn't the US, as the invasion of Iraq is very recent, while Islmo-fascism and murdering has been going on for far longer.
I'm done talking to a bunch of drones who can't think for themselves. You think long and hard at those photos, knowing I could add even more to the list, and keep dreaming up reasons why it's the US, and not Islamo-fascist who are to blame.
Then sleep well at night, because even though you know you're wrong, you'll convince yourself otherwise.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Dude, 7,000 to 70,000. Do you think the people who were killed are any less dead b/c you tell yourself you're 'right' ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
citizen wrote:
Thursday, November 01, 2007 14:14
I think arguing "who is more evil, the US or Terrorists" is a bit pointless.
In fact it's clear AU can't think clearly on this subject*, I could post pictures of people covered in blood from attacks perpetrated by Christians, Hindus, fluffy rabbits with big sharp pointy teeth, and say "All this done in the name of GOD - GANESHA - CARROTS!" Like the act is representative of the entire religion**.
I'm thinking very clearly, while you're ignoring the facts. You can't compare a full scale military operation between 2 armies to that of terrorist selecting and targeting unarmed civilians. I'm sorry, but that's simply bullshit, and you know it.
Sorry citizen, but you CAN'T actually present photos as you claim, or else you'd have done it. The very fact that I can and have proves my point. These act were SPECIFICALLY done in the name of Allah by the very ones who committed the crimes! How you FUCKING deny that is beyond all comprehension, and yet your stubborness knows no bounds.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Dude, 7,000 to 70,000. Do you think the people who were killed are any less dead b/c you tell yourself you're 'right' ?
False comparisons don't count. Sorry.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Tell me what's false. Dead is dead. We got more, they got an order of magnitude less.
So tell me - what's false.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
AU...you're starting to make me think of PirateNews' tactics... those pictures get an emotional response, but pictures of CIA trained Contras filling mass graves with women and children would do the same.
Stick to conversing to make your point.
CIA contras isn't the same as a world wide Islamic terrorist movement,and you know it. These contras were battling Soviet trained Sandinistas, so any thing you can come up w/ there is a draw, at best. Nothing remotely close to the Islmo-fascist we're fighting today.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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I was talking about the 70,000 dead Iraqis killed by the US. Not the contras or the CIA.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Tell me what's false. Dead is dead. We got more, they got an order of magnitude less.
So tell me - what's false.
You're undercounting the terrorist murders, for one, and then the big problem is you're comparing targeted civilians by the terrorist as being equal to the military deaths and colateral damage ( non targeted civilians ) by the US Military during a MAJOR conflict. It's not even apples to organges, it's so far apart, so the issue is moot.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Like I said, dead is dead. An OOPS (damn my butterfingers !) death is the same as a gottcha.
But I WAY undercounted. The total is somewhere between 500,000 and 1,500,000.
So, you know, you're right. It's apples and oranges.
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Those Islamist pikers ! Pathetic - 7,000. They need to get out of the way and let the real pros work.
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Quote:Yep. Mesmerized. Yanno, I could post a lot of photos of my own (if I knew how. Anyone care to PM me?
['m done talking to a bunch of drones who can't think for themselves. You think long and hard at those photos
) Did you read the descriptions of children being bashed against walls, women raped as they were tortured, limbs cut off and people left in agony to bleed to death? Brought to you by... the USA!You might want to acquaint yourself with operation Phoenix (maybe Geezer can fill you in). There is nothing that the jihadists have done that we haven't done. Nothing. Our historical tally is well past theirs. But somehow you feel insulated from it all. Not responsible.
Why? Do you think our victims to be less than us? Not worthy of grief? Non-human, in some way?
Or are you afraid of the jihadists' white-hot passion? Do you think the field belongs to the fanatic? Do you sense that events are moving in the wrong direction?
Well, don't worry about jihadists. They'll have to face China sooner or later.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Yep. Mesmerized. Yanno, I could post a lot of photos of my own (if I knew how. Anyone care to PM me?
['m done talking to a bunch of drones who can't think for themselves. You think long and hard at those photos
Read descriptions ? Now you're fucking joking. Given by who? The very Islamo -fascists who did such horrendous acts themselves, only to cry to a believing world media who accepts the lies of thugs and cut throats ? Give me a damn break. It was the 'world media' which allowed faked pics to run when Israel was retaliating to Hezbollah. You know the ones w/ the dead baby, the exacty same baby which shows up in several different locations. Boy, that dead baby sure did get around! Spare me.
That's bullshit and you know it! NONE of that was done by the USA. This crap ' brougth to you by ' is simple code for.. " well, others did it, but not US soldiers, so we can't accurately blame it on them, nor did they WANT it to happen, but becasue someone else did it, we'll simply blame the US because....... we got nothing else. What a fucking joke.
Quote:Oh,we've killed far more jihadist than they've killed of us. That's not even the issue here. We're trying to SAVE the civilians, while the Jihadist are murdering them. That you can't see the difference is mind blowing.
You might want to acquaint yourself with operation Phoenix (maybe Geezer can fill you in). There is nothing that the jihadists have done that we haven't done. Nothing. Our historical tally is well past theirs. But somehow you feel insulated from it all. Not responsible.
Why? Do you think our victims to be less than us? Not worthy of grief? Non-human, in some way?
Or are you afraid of the jihadists' white-hot passion? Do you think the field belongs to the fanatic? Do you sense that events are moving in the wrong direction?
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Like I said, dead is dead. An OOPS (damn my butterfingers !) death is the same as a gottcha.
But I WAY undercounted. The total is somewhere between 500,000 and 1,500,000.
So, you know, you're right. It's apples and oranges.
.
How accurate are those numbers which you don't cite with any references , that you can go from 70k to 500 k ,oh, wait 1.5 million w/ in a few minutes time? Compelling ? Not in the least.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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citizen - You posted historical pics of the holocaust, to prove a point. A point with which I emphatically agree.
I then post historical pics of what is going on in our time, and your dismiss it, out of hand. It seems you and 6ixString see things through the same lens more often than you'd like to admit.
Sorry to disapoint, but I didn't bring up any more 'strawmen' remarks. I'll leave that to you.
You just keep on seeing what you want to see.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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"How accurate are those numbers which you don't cite with any references , that you can go from 70k to 500 k ,oh, wait 1.5 million w/ in a few minutes time? Compelling ? Not in the least."
The first number, 70,000, was an understatement of the Iraq Body Count http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ 75,971 – 82,776. But I deliberately overestimated the Jihadist-caused fatalities and underestimated the US-caused ones to make the numbers come out even (1:10). The 500,000 is again a round figure from the 2006 Lancet survey whose real number was 654,965. An Opinion Research Business Poll estimated 1,220,580 deaths. The 1,500,000 figure is an estimate by the Iraq government.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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So, in Iraq alone the US has caused AT LEAST 10x more deaths than Jihadists have worldwide.
Do you still say they are more evil ?
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Those callous killers !
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So, in Iraq alone the US has caused AT LEAST 10x more deaths than Jihadists have worldwide.
Do you still say they are more evil ?
You recycling your flawed argument isn't going to change the facts.
This is pointless. Go buy your prayer rug now.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:6 was denying the holocaust took place, so I posted pictures of Jews in concentration camps. You are arguing that Islamic Terrorism is representative of Islam as a whole, all you're pictures prove is Islamic Terrorism exists, not that it is representative. My use of images was a legitimate support of my argument, yours was a red herring.
citizen - You posted historical pics of the holocaust, to prove a point. A point with which I emphatically agree.
I then post historical pics of what is going on in our time, and your dismiss it, out of hand. It seems you and 6ixString see things through the same lens more often than you'd like to admit.
While we're on the subject, Beslan was part of the Chechnyan war, a conflict with very little to do with Islam. Yes Chechnya is predominantly Muslim, but that doesn't mean acts of violence committed by Chechnyans is inspired by Islam, anymore than the Nuclear bombings of Japan can be said to be Christian violence because the US is predominantly Christian.
As for why I didn't post pictures, it has nothing to do with not being able too, its because my argument doesn't require it. My argument wasn't "there are non-Muslim terrorists too" it was that their existence says nothing about mainstream followers. Its disheartening that I had to spell that out, almost as disheartening as the fact you will ignore it.
If you're really desperate for more images of death and violence I can provide them, but at the moment my available equipment makes it difficult, so you'll have to wait until this evening.
Quote:Our words speak for themselves, I say "Islamic Terrorism isn't representative of Islam as a whole" and you retort with "So you think Islamic Terrorism doesn't exist huh". Its a fundamental lie about the intent of my statement, rather than attack my argument, you portray it as a more easily refuted position you can tear down. Hence Strawman. Its so basic an error I'm forced to conclude you are either deeply stupid, or doing it on purpose, and merely stubbornly refusing to accept reality doesn't change that.
Sorry to disapoint, but I didn't bring up any more 'strawmen' remarks. I'll leave that to you.
Lastly, whenever I have accused you of strawmanning, I have provided examples or quotes, the fact you can't do the same speaks volumes.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:6 was denying the holocaust took place, so I posted pictures of Jews in concentration camps. You are arguing that Islamic Terrorism is representative of Islam as a whole, all you're pictures prove is Islamic Terrorism exists, not that it is representative. My use of images was a legitimate support of my argument, yours was a red herring.
citizen - You posted historical pics of the holocaust, to prove a point. A point with which I emphatically agree.
I then post historical pics of what is going on in our time, and your dismiss it, out of hand. It seems you and 6ixString see things through the same lens more often than you'd like to admit.
I'm trying to get you to see that islamic terrorism is real. Whether or not it's indicitive of all Islam, is another issue, but at the very least, you must see what's going on first before you can address the problem.
Quote:
While we're on the subject, Beslan was part of the Chechnyan war, a conflict with very little to do with Islam. Yes Chechnya is predominantly Muslim, but that doesn't mean acts of violence committed by Chechnyans is inspired by Islam, anymore than the Nuclear bombings of Japan can be said to be Christian violence because the US is predominantly Christian.
Beslan terrorist got instruction and financing from al Qaeda.
Quote:And because you're so intent on showing what Islam isn't, you'd overlook what it is ?
As for why I didn't post pictures, it has nothing to do with not being able too, its because my argument doesn't require it. My argument wasn't "there are non-Muslim terrorists too" it was that their existence says nothing about mainstream followers. Its disheartening that I had to spell that out, almost as disheartening as the fact you will ignore it.
Quote:I know you'd not be able to reply w/ any relevent set of pics, so don't bother.
If you're really desperate for more images of death and violence I can provide them, but at the moment my available equipment makes it difficult, so you'll have to wait until this evening.
I just don't know why you're so slow to admit that Islamic terrorism even exits,and why so many here want to play the equivocancy game, when it simply doesn't apply.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Denying the holocaust is the intellectual equivalent of pissing on the sidewalk. It's the ultimate in troll-isms, an obnoxious insecure child being as bratty as possible to gain the attention of adults.
Replying to them is like feeding the dog at the table. DON'T FEED THE TROLLS
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So, in Iraq alone the US has caused AT LEAST 10x more deaths than Jihadists have worldwide.
Do you still say they are more evil ?
So you are holding the US responsible for all deaths caused by sectarian strife?
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Quote:Er, no. I was quoting a report about Guatemala not Iraq. No Jihadists, just a corrupt government and a bunch of Mayan victims.
Read descriptions ? Now you're fucking joking. Given by who? The very Islamo -fascists who did such horrendous acts themselves, only to cry to a believing world media who accepts the lies of thugs and cut throats ?
Quote:Well, many of these military folks were trained and armed by the USA, and some of them were actually on our payroll while all of this was happening. So.... we outsourced terrorism but we promoted it just the same.
That's bullshit and you know it! NONE of that was done by the USA. This crap ' brougth to you by ' is simple code for.. " well, others did it, but not US soldiers, so we can't accurately blame it on them, nor did they WANT it to happen, but becasue someone else did it, we'll simply blame the US because....... we got nothing else. What a fucking joke.
But if you want to see American bloodied hands (as opposed to "outsourced" torture and tyranny) all you have to do is look at our history in Vietnam:
Quote:
So the CIA adopted the Ho's strategy-but on a grander and bloodier scale. The object of Contre Coup was to identify and terrorize each and every individual VCI and his/her family, friends and fellow villagers. To this end the CIA in 1964 launched a massive intelligence operation called the Provincial Interrogation Center Program. The CIA (employing the US company Pacific Architects and Engineers) built an interrogation center in each of South Vietnam's 44 provinces. Staffed by members of the brutal Special Police, who ran extensive informant networks, and advised by CIA officers, the purpose of the PICs was to identify, through the systematic "interrogation" (read torture) of VCI suspects, the membership of the VCI at every level of its organization; from its elusive headquarters somewhere along the Cambodian border, through the region, city, province, district, village and hamlet committees.
... Eventually the irrepressible Americans added their own improvements. In his autobiography Soldier, Anthony Herbert describes arriving in Saigon in 1965, reporting to the CIA's Special Operations Group, and being asked to join a top-secret psywar program. What the CIA wanted Herbert to do, "was to take charge of execution teams that wiped out entire families."
By 1967, killing entire families had become an integral facet of the CIA's counter-terror program. ... Yes, the CIA has a global, illegal strategy of terrorizing people, although in typical CIA lexicon it's called "anti-terrorism." {Because} When you're waging illegal warfare, language is every bit as important as weaponry and the will to kill. Neil Sheehan... recently confessed that in 1966 he saw US soldiers massacre as many as 600 Vietnamese civilians in five fishing villages.
Phoenix Comes To Thanh Phong
The CIA launched its Phoenix Program in June 1967, after 13 years of tinkering with several experimental counter-terror and psywar programs, and building its network of secret interrogation centers. A typical Phoenix operation began in a Province Interrogation Center where a suspected member of the VCI was brought for questioning. After a few days or weeks or months undergoing various forms of torture, the VCI suspect would die or give the name and location of his VCI comrades and superiors... By 1969 the CIA, through Phoenix, was targeting individual VCI and their families all across Vietnam. Over 20,000 people were assassinated by the end of the year and hundreds of thousands had been tortured in Province Interrogation Centers....Phoenix, alas, also was fiendishly effective and became a template for future CIA operations. Developed in Vietnam and perfected with the death squads and media blackout of Afghanistan and El Salvador, it is now employed by the CIA around the world.
www.counterpunch.org/valentine.html
BTW- I would not have believed this article had I not seen news clips of torture, of people being thrown
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What Auraptor? No moral outrage?
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
What Auraptor? No moral outrage?
Patience is a virtue, all good things come to those who wait, a watched kettle never boils, etc, etc, etc.
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"You recycling your flawed argument isn't going to change the facts."
But WHY is it flawed ? Can you answer that question ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:Okay, THIS is why I'm bowing out now. You knowledge of history is laughable. The Contras were battling the populace to make them unhappy that the Sandinistas couldn't protect them. There were few good guys in that arena, but the Contras were the worst.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
These contras were battling Soviet trained Sandinistas,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contras
There's a link that you probably won't read, as it challenges your beliefs on these matters, AU.
You got no rudder, AURaptor. Right-wing propaganda blows northerly, you go north.
Later, Chrisisall
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Rap
"You recycling your flawed argument isn't going to change the facts."
But - WHY - is it flawed ? Can you answer that question ?
Is it because American deaths count and Iraqi deaths don't ? Is it because 'they' intend to kill small numbers of civilians while the US merely discounts civilians and so kills wholesale numbers ? Is it because the US sometimes says OOPS afterwards, so it makes it all right ?
Tell me - WHY - is it flawed ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rap
"You recycling your flawed argument isn't going to change the facts."
But - WHY - is it flawed ? Can you answer that question ?
Is it because American deaths count and Iraqi deaths don't ? Is it because 'they' intend to kill small numbers of civilians while the US merely discounts civilians and so kills wholesale numbers ? Is it because the US sometimes says OOPS afterwards, so it makes it all right ?
Tell me - WHY - is it flawed ?
First of all, because it's not, as you put it, American deaths vs Iraqi deaths. If you had taken the time to look at the pics I posted, this is WELL beyond Iraq. That's one major flaw. Secondly, the US isn't killing civilians by design or intent. That's a HUGE flaw on your part. The US not only doesn't want to civilian deaths, its gone far out of its way, risking the lives of our own soldiers to SAVE civilian lives. And that's not even bringing up the issue of laser or GPS guided munitions! In contrast, the Islamo-fascist seek out to kill/maim as many innocents as they can! A colossal flaw in your comparison, w/ out question.
It's not an issue of 'oops', mind you.If an opposing army puts a valued target in a high civilian population, THEY, not the US are putting those lives as risk. What do you expect the US military to do ? Not take out a site which is crucial to winning the war? " Oh, sure, we might lose this battle or have to sacrifice a few hundred soldiers becauae the Iraqis have surrounded that site w/ locals - no biggie" .Horseshit! During a war, you're there to win. If the enemy uses it's own people as human shields, which Iraq most definatly did, then so be it. The choice is taken out of our hands.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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So Auraptor, are you as outraged about our terrorizing the civilian population of Vietnam as you are about the jihadists terrorizing Iraqis?
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Rap
Some of what you say actually bolsters my argument. I was comparing US-caused deaths in Iraq - a very small area on the globe - with Jihadist deaths worldwide. If I had totaled up all the other US-caused deaths - including Afghanistan for example - the US toll would be much higher. And the US would look much worse.
The other thing I get out of your post is deeply held prejudice. If the US discounts civilian deaths to gain an objective that's somehow different. I don't think the people who died in pain and terror really cared that the US simply rolled over them on their way to something else.
Did you see the recent 60 Minutes broadcast about the calculation that goes into bombing a house ? The chance of getting a 'high value target' is worth the actual death of 30 civilians. So it's not that the US goes so far out of its way to avoid these things - it just calculates a discount rate on civilians depending on target.
The other thing you are mistaken about is that this is somehow making you safer.
But the families, neighbors, tribes and countries don't care if the US targeted civilians on purpose or if it just didn't think they were important. They are people - like you or I - and their grief will cause them to support anyone who takes actions against the US, Jihadist or not. US caused deaths are making you less safe, not more.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:Mmmm. Apparently not.
So Auraptor, are you as outraged about our terrorizing the civilian population of Vietnam as you are about the jihadists terrorizing Iraqis?
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So Auraptor, are you as outraged about our terrorizing the civilian population of Vietnam as you are about the jihadists terrorizing Iraqis?
Irrelevent question. That was during a hot war, plus, the jihadist are terrorizing the rest of the planet, not just one country.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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You keep making the same mistake, that it's "just about deaths". I wonder why. Hmmmm.
It's very different when the US discounts deaths which weren't intentional than when an terrorist plans to murder as many as he can. That's self evident, or should be, to most folks.
Yeah, 60 Minutes. A real impartial news source. 
Please.
It's definatly making me and all of us safer. Seen any major attacks on the US soil lately ?
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Well, isn't it "just about deaths" ? Is your argument that when people die b/c of the US it's somehow better ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:So if WE can be "forgiven" for terrorizing and killing civilians during a "hot war", can the Jihadists in Iraq be forgiven for doing the same thing in the same circumstances? Or is that somehow different? And if so, how?
Irrelevent question. That was during a hot war
Quote:And we're not? Okay, you'd say that "we're" not terrorizing people, its just our mercs and allied repressive militaries. But I could say the same for the "jihadists" because they aren't under one commander either.
plus, the jihadist are terrorizing the rest of the planet, not just one country.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:So if WE can be "forgiven" for terrorizing and killing civilians during a "hot war", can the Jihadists in Iraq be forgiven for doing the same thing in the same circumstances? Or is that somehow different? And if so, how?
Irrelevent question. That was during a hot warQuote:And we're not? Okay, you'd say that "we're" not terrorizing people, its just our mercs and allied repressive militaries. But I could say the same for the "jihadists" because they aren't under one commander either.
plus, the jihadist are terrorizing the rest of the planet, not just one country.
If you're going to try to have a discussion that our troops and the jihadist are in ANY way equivolent, then that's a discussion you'll have by yourself.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Well, isn't it "just about deaths" ? Is your argument that when people die b/c of the US it's somehow better ?
Absolutely. Got any more dumb questions ?
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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So people killed by the US are less valuable than people killed by Jihadists ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So people killed by the US are less valuable than people killed by Jihadists ?
Wow, you do have more dumb questions! I was half kidding.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Is your argument that when people die b/c of the US it's somehow better ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely.
Then explain - HOW is it better ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:Well, just like all Muslims are not jihadists, not all "troops" are terrorists. But if you torture, rape, maim, and kill... in other words, if you DO the same thing... then you ARE equivalent. Cause it doesn't matter how you "feel" about it, or what your "reasons" are, terrorizing people is being a terrorist.
If you're going to try to have a discussion that our troops and the jihadist are in ANY way equivolent, then that's a discussion you'll have by yourself.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Well, just like all Muslims are not jihadists, not all "troops" are terrorists. But if you torture, rape, maim, and kill... in other words, if you DO the same thing... then you ARE equivalent. Cause it doesn't matter how you "feel" about it, or what your "reasons" are, terrorizing people is being a terrorist.
If you're going to try to have a discussion that our troops and the jihadist are in ANY way equivolent, then that's a discussion you'll have by yourself.
But that's not what our soldiers 'do'. So it's a invalid comparison.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:Quote me where I said Islamic Terrorism doesn't exist. You can't because I never said that, I never even alluded to that.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I'm trying to get you to see that islamic terrorism is real. Whether or not it's indicitive of all Islam, is another issue, but at the very least, you must see what's going on first before you can address the problem.
Perhaps you just aren't reading what I write, or you're more interested in winning to engage me honestly, either way there seems to be little point in continuing.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
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Quote:and Al Qaeda got instruction and financing from the CIA.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Beslan terrorist got instruction and financing from al Qaeda.
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Quote:You keep wanting to expand your scope of Jihadism across the globe, through decades, and to all unaffiliated groups.
But that's not what our soldiers 'do'. So it's a invalid comparison.
But when it comes to discussing "Americans" you suddenly narrow your focus to the "good guys in Iraq", discounting what we've done in Vietnam and elsewhere; what we trained, armed, and paid other militaries to do; our rogue soldiers; Abu Ghraib; Blackwater and our other contractors.
YES WE DO Auraptor. We have done, and will continue to do EXACTLY the same thing. Sometimes, as in Vietnam, it's on purpose with "special units". Sometimes it's what we train and pay others to do, as in Guatemala. Sometimes its our contractors. Sometimes we just don't "mind" collateral damage and wind up taking out a lot of innocent folks on the way to someone else. You're a big Jack Bauer fan, right? Kidnapping, torture, murder ... it's all good, right?
What we've been talking about all along is ends and means. If we feel that our ends are "just", does that give license to our means? I used to think that the ends DID justify the means. But over the decades I saw a pattern: every time we took a short cut ... aided, abetted, and performed terrorism... it came back to bite us in the *ss. A lot of people in South and Central America hate us. The people THERE know who backed their dictators with guns, money, training and intel. Years of horrific dictatorships, people "disappeared" by the thousands, torture, murder, genocide.. has led directly to backlashes like Hugo Chavez. Saddam Hussein was our big buddy against the Ayatollah Khomeini. And the AK came into power as a result of a backlash against the Shah of Iran, who WE placed into power. We trained his infamous Savak. The Taliban was an outgrowth of our support for the "muhajadeen".... whose main selling point was that they were anti-Soviet, ignoring the fact that they were repressive, religious nut-jobs INCLUDING ObL. Let's not forget that the Reagan administration played footsie with Islamic Iran, selling them arms and skimming the money for our "contra" war in Nicaragua.
So we backed a bunch of dictators in S&C America, the Taliban, Saddam, the Shah of Iran, supplied arms to Islamic Iran. And each time we made a deal with the devil we wound up dealing with an aftermath which was stronger and more virulent.
I've come to the conclusion that noble and righteous "ends" provide very little wiggle room for our "means", either in a moral or practical sense.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:and Al Qaeda got instruction and financing from the CIA.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Beslan terrorist got instruction and financing from al Qaeda.
Not only is that a lie, it's also incredibly irrelevant.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:You keep wanting to expand your scope of Jihadism across the globe, through decades, and to all unaffiliated groups.
But that's not what our soldiers 'do'. So it's a invalid comparison.
But when it comes to discussing "Americans" you suddenly narrow your focus to the "good guys in Iraq", discounting what we've done in Vietnam and elsewhere; what we trained, armed, and paid other militaries to do; our rogue soldiers; Abu Ghraib; Blackwater and our other contractors.
I'm not narrowing down the focus to ONLY our guys in Iraq, YOU'RE the one doing that. But instead of focusing on the 99.99% of good guys, you focus on the 0.01% bad guys. Bad guys whom we've charged, tried and when applicable, convicted for doing bad. You show me ONE case where an al Qaeda or Islmic Jihadist has been reprimanded for killing too MANY innocent people, or for being too harsh with a kidnapped victim, etc..... It never happens - EVER. In EVERY case around the globe, the terrorist in question are doing their acts in the name of allah, for PURE Islam, so spare me the attempts to disassociate them from each other. They're ALL doing this for one cause, for ALLAH.
I'm sick of explaining this over and over again, and all you do is refuse to read what I'm posting, undestand what I'm saying. You're just too stubbornly clinging to your politically correct mindset, which trips your logic breaker and keeps you from seeing that there IS good and evil, and instead you try to equivocate the two.
You refuse to see things as they are, and inisist on comparing unlike things as being on par with each other. I'm done w/ this moronic exercise in trying to educate you or to have a rational discussion on this topic. I've said all I can / will say on the matter.
Aloha.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Auraptor, I added more to my post, which x-posted with you so I'm carrying it here for your convenience. Thanks.
What we've been talking about all along is ends and means. If we feel that our ends are "just", does that give license to our means? I used to think that the ends DID justify the means. But over the decades I saw a pattern: every time we took a short cut ... aided, abetted, and performed terrorism... it came back to bite us in the *ss. A lot of people in South and Central America hate us. The people THERE know who backed their dictators with guns, money, training and intel. Years of horrific dictatorships, people "disappeared" by the thousands, torture, murder, genocide.. has led directly to backlashes like Hugo Chavez. Saddam Hussein was our big buddy against the Ayatollah Khomeini. And the AK came into power as a result of a backlash against the Shah of Iran, who WE placed into power. We trained his infamous Savak. The Taliban was an outgrowth of our support for the "muhajadeen".... whose main selling point was that they were anti-Soviet, ignoring the fact that they were repressive, religious nut-jobs INCLUDING ObL. Let's not forget that the Reagan administration played footsie with Islamic Iran, selling them arms and skimming the money for our "contra" war in Nicaragua.
So we backed a bunch of dictators in S&C America, the Taliban, Saddam, the Shah of Iran, supplied arms to Islamic Iran. And each time we made a deal with the devil we wound up dealing with an aftermath which was stronger and more virulent.
I've come to the conclusion that noble and righteous "ends" provide very little wiggle room for our "means", either in a moral or practical sense.
Quote:Auraptor, good and evil is what you DO, not how noble you feel or how righteous your goals. Heck, I've read of people who have sadly killed their children out of "love" to send them to a better place. But killing is killing, torture is torture, and terrorizing a population is terrorism.
You're just too stubbornly clinging to your politically correct mindset, which trips your logic breaker and keeps you from seeing that there IS good and evil, and instead you try to equivocate the two. You refuse to see things as they are, and inisist on comparing unlike things as being on par with each other.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:Saying Chechnyan rebels are Islamic terrorists is irrelevant, stupid and a lie. If aid from Al Qaeda makes acts not inspired by Islam "Islamic Terrorism", then IRA bombings in Britain are "American Terrorism", despite not being inspired by America, because the IRA got much of their funding from American citizens.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not only is that a lie, it's also incredibly irrelevant.
Islamic Terrorism is terrorism inspired by Islam, not Terrorism committed by Muslims. In the case of the IRA it can be said to be Christian Terrorism, because it's as much about Catholics killing Protestants and vice versa as it is anything else, Chechnyan is not about Muslims killing because of Islam. They're committing terrorism for an entirely different reason.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Auraptor, I added more to my post, which x-posted with you so please scroll up. Thanks.
Much of what you're mixing into the conversation is true, and exposes the catch 22 scenarios that our State Dept ( far more so tban individual Presidents or political parties ) has engaged in for DECADES. Ideas which seem good at the time may ( and do ) come around to bite you later on. As for helping the Islamist in Afghanistan , doing NOTHING seemed even a bigger gamble. Allow the Soviet Union to control the territory, being once step closer to all the mid east Oil and a warm water port. Coming from 30 yrs of the cold war at the time, it's easy to see how stoping the USSR at nearly all cost made sense. Had the Soviet Union won in Afghanistan, who knows where'd they be by now ? They might have helped Iran take out Iraq compeltely, and accomplishing 2 major goals in one step. The cold war continues, the Iron Curtain remains, and the US now has to deal with a much stronger Soviet Union.
We knew who and what these folks were at the time we were helping them, and despite that, the choice to aid them vs the scenario above seems a logical one. And not all of them were so hate filled against us. There was ( and likely still is ) a faction of folks who remember our assistance and would be willing to form some sort of reasonable co-existance. Sadly, those voices have been shouted down. Even so, given what we knew then, it's hard to see us making a different call. That's the problem of having to make tough decissions. Even if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. ( Apologies to the band Rush
) That's as good as I got for this thread. You're welcome.
Aloha
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Auraptor: What would the USSR want with Afghani oil? They got a shit load of their own! AFA being Anti-Soviet: The USSR went into Afghanistan, built roads, schools, and hospitals. They stayed long enough that they trained thousands of women doctors... who BTW became the first victims of OUR Taliban. If we had focused on the stability of Afghanistan, rather on trying to maintain our extended reach over the Middle East (because WE wanted the oil, not because the Soviets did!) we would have left well enough alone.
At the time, Iran was a hotbed of radical Islam. It would have benefited us to have a stable, prosperous, secular nation in the area rather than a radicalized failed state.
You say that it would have been "hard" to make any other decision. Then what you're saying is that we (our State Department and who-all else) is incapable of learning from history because history teaches us that blowback is a bitch. A lot of times a principled decision while looking flawed in the short term is actually to our benefit in the long run. And maybe if we stopped operating out of reflex we might be able to suck it up and do what's right and practical.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:Saying Chechnyan rebels are Islamic terrorists is irrelevant, stupid and a lie. If aid from Al Qaeda makes acts not inspired by Islam "Islamic Terrorism", then IRA bombings in Britain are "American Terrorism", despite not being inspired by America, because the IRA got much of their funding from American citizens.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Not only is that a lie, it's also incredibly irrelevant.
Chechan rebels are Muslims. Muslims committing terrorist attacks. They receive help from other Muslims, who themselves are terrorists. Your IRA comparision is completely invalid because these 'Americans', as you call them, are made up mostly,if not entirely, of Irish descendants living in America. While being US citizens, they aren't reflective of most Americans. Bottom line is, you can't compare folks living here in the US to the rank and file members of al Qaeda, which are all trained and brainwashed to kill the infidels, where ever they find them. It's a moot point.
The CIA never funded al Qaeda. They receive their funding from around the world, from front organizations posing as 'Relief' outfits for palestinians and the like, as well as an array of other phony outfits as well. They also get funding from rich Oil sheiks, mainly in Saudia Arabia. And OBL himself was a very wealthy man, before he was exiled. I'm sure he's got a few pennies to rub together himself. al Qaeda is a crime organization which finds funding w/ out help from the CIA.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Auraptor: What would the USSR want with Afghani oil?
I never said "Afghani oil". Dude, this is an entirely different thread. I'm done w/ this one.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:Okay, Mideast oil. But again, what would the USSR want with Mideast oil? They got a shitload themselves. The ONLY thing they could do is deny us and Europe access. Of the two, we would weather that issue better. In fact, we could have eliminated our need for Mideast oil by increasing fuel efficiency.
allow the Soviet Union to control the territory, being once step closer to all the mid east Oil and a warm water port
I said before that fear makes people do stupid things, and that works collectively as well as individually. We were taught to be afraid of Communism, so we reacted reflexively each time ANY form of socialism popped up, and denied such modest steps as land reform or more equitable deals for oil, creating tyranny in the Phillipines, Indonesia, Chile, Iran, Nicaragua, Panama, Brazil, Afghanistan, Guatemala and many other places, all under the flag of "anti Communism". So now we're cozying up to Pakistan (which has done more to spread nuclear technology throughout the Islamic nations than any other nation) and Saudi Arabia (which funds terrorists and is a radical Muslim tyranny), and any other tinpot dictatorship in the area that'll have us (Uzbekistan and all the other 'stans).
But if we really want to live in a peaceful, democratic world... a world where we don't have a big bull's eye painted on our backs... then we should be backing peaceful, democratic, transparent governments, not fostering horror. Tough in the short run? You bet. But better in the long run.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:I know, but that doesn't mean it's Islamic Terrorism. It's an inordinately simple concept that you seem unable or unwilling to grasp, Islamic Terrorism IS NOT terrorism committed by Muslims, it's terrorism committed in the name of Islam. A Muslim can commit a terrorist act without it being Islamic Terrorism, and you've shown no Islamic component to Chechnyan terrorist motivations. The Terrorists being Muslim is incidental if they're not committing terrorist acts because of Islam.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Chechan rebels are Muslims. Muslims committing terrorist attacks. They receive help from other Muslims, who themselves are terrorists.
Quote:So Irish-Americans aren't normal Americans huh. In a country built on immigration you can't separate people from the general population based on ancestry, they're just American. If you try and separate them out because affiliation is inconvenient to you, your being nothing more than racist.
Your IRA comparision is completely invalid because these 'Americans', as you call them, are made up mostly,if not entirely, of Irish descendants living in America. While being US citizens, they aren't reflective of most Americans.
Actually my IRA analogy is completely valid, because the premise that Beslan was Islamic Terrorism and the premise that IRA Terrorism is American Terrorism are both invalid for the same reasons. Again you manage to miss the point spectacularly.
Quote:I didn't compare them to Al Qaeda, read what I write rather than making it up as you go along.
Bottom line is, you can't compare folks living here in the US to the rank and file members of al Qaeda, which are all trained and brainwashed to kill the infidels, where ever they find them. It's a moot point.
Quote:Actually there is evidence to suggest the CIA funded Al Qaeda, and were still funding them in 1995 (as per a French intelligence report). They had motive too, during the 80's Al Qaeda was fighting Soviet Russia, so they were a convenient proxy.
The CIA never funded al Qaeda. They receive their funding from around the world, from front organizations posing as 'Relief' outfits for palestinians and the like, as well as an array of other phony outfits as well. They also get funding from rich Oil sheiks, mainly in Saudia Arabia. And OBL himself was a very wealthy man, before he was exiled. I'm sure he's got a few pennies to rub together himself. al Qaeda is a crime organization which finds funding w/ out help from the CIA.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
citizen wrote: So Irish-Americans aren't normal Americans huh. In a country built on immigration you can't separate people from the general population based on ancestry, they're just American. If you try and separate them out because affiliation is inconvenient to you, your being nothing more than racist.
Ahh..the 'racist' card. A clear indication that I've won this debate and left you floundering for some ounce of dignity. The interest of Irish Americans per the IRA and the issues w/ England aren't those shared by a vast majority of Americans. I wish I could say your sad, petty attempt to make this into some sort of 'race' issue is a new low, even for you - but it's par for the course. In a country built on immigration, we clearly can seperate people from the general population based on their actions and their support for the IRA. Most Americans are pretty unaware of the whole conflict, either way. There's nothing in the least 'racist' about it at all, its simply pragmatic. The N.Ireland conflict was never really on the radar as a concern for the average American. Sorry, it just was not nor is not.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Whatever dude, you're the one who alluded to Irish-Americans not being 'Americans', not me. I'm not playing the racist card at all, I said denying a group of people as American because you find their inclusion inconvenient is racist, and you know what, it really is. As for a new 'low', someone who has been calling people terrorists and terrorists-sympathisers throughout this thread has no right whatsoever to talk about lows.
It appears you've moved on to your usual tactic of faux outrage and declarations of 'I win' to try to convince yourself that your argument didn't collapse about half a thread back. Whatever lets you sleep at night man, no one is fooled, so I'll just leave you to it.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:Again, I never did any such thing, not once, not ever. Your built in bias towards me or whom ever really must be looked at.
Originally posted by citizen:
Whatever dude, you're the one who alluded to Irish-Americans not being 'Americans', not me.
Quote:
I'm not playing the racist card at all, I said denying a group of people as American because you find their inclusion inconvenient is racist, and you know what, it really is.
I never denied them as being Americans what so ever. Stop smoking the funny weed! I said that outside of Irish Americans, not many give a damn about the religious scrap of N.Ireland.
It appears you've moved on to your usual tactic of faux outrage and declarations of 'I win' to try to convince yourself that your argument didn't collapse about half a thread back. Whatever lets you sleep at night man, no one is fooled, so I'll just leave you to it.
You're just fussy that I didn't roll over as soon as you brought out the bogus 'race card' and called you on your lame attempt to skirt the issue. As usual. There's no faux outrage here on my part at all, just exaspiration as you, once again, try to distort the issue because you have nothing to back you up.
You'd have done better for yourself had you just left it BEFORE you tried the lame race baiting. No one is fooled by your lame tactics, that much you did get right.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Rap,
I never did get an answer to this ....
Rue: Is your argument that when people die b/c of the US it's somehow better ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rap: Absolutely.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rue: Then explain - HOW is it better ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rap,
I never did get an answer to this ....
Rue: Is your argument that when people die b/c of the US it's somehow better ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rap: Absolutely.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rue: Then explain - HOW is it better ?
It's called 'sarcasm'. I really thought this thread wa long dead. Sheesh.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Then it's NOT better. Great ! We agree ! So, since it's NOT better when the US kills people, how do you justify the US doing it ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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So, uh, Rap ---- any response ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Then it's NOT better. Great ! We agree ! So, since it's NOT better when the US kills people, how do you justify the US doing it ?
I honestly have no idea what you're asking. Please, try to form a coherent, clear and concise question for me to answer.
I might add that you could do better for yourself if you left out any misleading, false premised preambles to your question as well. Thanks.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Rue: Is your argument that when people die b/c of the US it's somehow better ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rap: Absolutely.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rue: Then explain - HOW is it better ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rap: It's called 'sarcasm'.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rue: Then it's NOT better. Great ! We agree ! So, since it's NOT better when the US kills people, how do you justify the US doing it ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Rap
And since we're hashing things out, I never did get an answer to this question. And I even repeated the (very short) question for you, as you asked. So, here it is again, question in bold:
Rue: Is your argument that when people die b/c of the US it's somehow better ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rap: Absolutely.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rue: Then explain - HOW is it better ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rap: It's called 'sarcasm'.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rue: Then it's NOT better. Great ! We agree ! So, since it's NOT better when the US kills people, how do you justify the US doing it ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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That's too complicated, Rue. Keep it simple!
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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If a Rue falls in the forest does anyone but Signy hear her?
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Apparently you do, too.
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You just couldn't help yourself - you HAD to say something snide. And not only did you set yourself up, you walked into your own trap.
Where is the :stooopid: emoticon when you really need it ?
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Apparently you do, too.
You just couldn't help yourself - you HAD to say something snide. And not only did you set yourself up, you walked into your own trap.
Where is the :stooopid: emoticon when you really need it ?
But my thoughts don't come across in this forum. For some reason only the typed word does, go figure.
Besides, this is a fan forum, what do you possibly have to gain by taunting Auraptor?
Are your questions the only ones that need answering? You did not even attempt to answer my query to you much earlier in this thread. Perhaps I should keep reposting it over and over again until I can feel some sense of superiority, or victory. Nah, seems rather petty to me.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rue: Is your argument that when people die b/c of the US it's somehow better ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rap: Absolutely.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rue: Then explain - HOW is it better ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rap: It's called 'sarcasm'.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rue: Then it's NOT better. Great ! We agree ! So, since it's NOT better when the US kills people, how do you justify the US doing it ?
When you ask a real qustion, I'll grant you the honor of my time and give you an answer. Until then, go play your little game.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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BiggusD
1) this is RWE - repeat as necessary
2) I'm not taunting, I'm asking - politely I might add.
3) repeat your question - I'm often away from the board for days and I even miss posts
Rap
It's a real question. I've been hoping for an answer which is why I keep asking.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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And I'm still waiting for an answer. Sigh.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
And I'm still waiting for an answer. Sigh.
And you will continue waiting, until I get a legitimate question.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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How do (interrogative) you (subject) justify (verb) the US killing (object) of civilians if (conjunction) it is just as bad as when Jihadists kill civilians ? (question mark)
Seems like a legitimate question to me. And I really want to know. You seem to think it's fine. Tell me how you conclude that.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
1) this is RWE - repeat as necessary
Why is Auraptor's answer so darn important to you?
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
2) I'm not taunting, I'm asking - politely I might add.
The first time may have been considered polite, the successive repeats perhaps not IMHO.
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
3) repeat your question...
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So, in Iraq alone the US has caused AT LEAST 10x more deaths than Jihadists have worldwide.
Do you still say they are more evil ?
So you are holding the US responsible for all deaths caused by sectarian strife?
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I'm often away from the board for days and I even miss posts
Hmmmm, perhaps that is the case for others as well no?
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Sigh. That's why I keep asking. Sooner or later he'll get it. That's the kind and gentle interpretation of not getting an answer. Which I am trying to remedy - by simplifying, clarifying and reposting.
As to why it's so important - if you can ask me then I can ask him. It works that way all around.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Auraptor refuses to answer the question because it is the nub of the logical contradiction that underlies his opinion. If he acknowledged that deaths caused by Americans are just as bad as deaths caused by others, he would have to acknowledge that Americans might not be the heroes that he envisions. It's simple, really, and only an idiot could fail to see it.
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Always look upstream.
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"it is the nub of the logical contradiction that underlies his opinion"
It looks that way to me too, which is why I'm so curious. If I could find out how he keeps those ideas together in his head I'd feel I had achieved some significant, meaningful understanding of Rap and where he's coming from. Which is why I'm really, really hoping he'll answer - either post or PM.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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I don't justify the killing of civilians, and that is why your question is false. I do, however, acknowledge that collateral damage is a unavoidable consequence of war. Where you and I differ is that I see how the US tries at great lengths to AVOID civilian casualities, while the terrorist do every thing they can to murder as many innocents as possible. I'm fairly certain that we've gone over this before,and can't help but wonder why we're going over it again.
And yes SIGNYM, he US soldiers ARE the heroes I envison them to be, in great contrast to the purely evil Islamo-Facsist/Jihadist.
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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But Rue wasn't asking about motivation, justification, or mitigation. Rue was asking a simple question, which you seem to have difficulty answering in a straightforward way.
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Always look upstream.
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