Aid for Israel
POSTED BY: AnthonyT
UPDATED: Monday, August 17, 2026 14:58
VIEWED: 9683
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Hello,
I was recently reading a post about politics, and the issue of aid to Israel came up. I thought it might be worth its own thread.
I happen to hold the belief that we should not be supplying aid to Israel.
I prefer to have allies of ideology and common purpose rather than allies that have been overtly purchased. I much prefer our relationship with Canada and England to our relationship with Israel, for instance.
One must wonder whether Israel is a viable country. Many people who defend the idea of sending aid to Israel suggest that Israel would collapse without our assistance.
This suggests that Israel is not viable. We have been providing aid to Israel for at least 50 years. If they can't stand on their own two feet by now, what does it tell us about them? If they would cease being our allies in the middle-east because we stop feeding them money and equipment, what does that tell us about the quality of our 'friendship?'
Of course, I believe the idea that Israel would fall without our assistance is a fallacy. I think if left alone, Israel would become stronger and truly independent for the first time in their history. With hands untied, they would settle their regional problems much more efficiently than they are currently able to do. Then, if they wanted to be our ally, they could choose to do so as equals, based on nothing more than a shared value system.
Otherwise, if we are going to perpetually maintain Israel... If their well-being is entirely dependent upon our constant aid, then the country should surrender their sovereignty and request to be made a US Protectorate and apply to become the 51st state of the union.
Are there any who share my desire to end aid to Israel?
Are there those who oppose this desire? I would enjoy hearing your arguments. I might even learn something. :-)
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Me, for one. When people point to our generous foreign aid program they fail to understand that HALF of our so-called foreign aid goes to Israel.
There are times when foreign aid is a good thing: To get developing nations "over the hump" (example the Marshall Plan), respond to natural disasters (tsunami, drought, earthquake, plague) and as one-time bribes to get rogue leaders out of the picture. But our current "foreign aid" is either propping up dictatorships, paying for friendships, or being recycled directly back to USA corporations w/o making so much as a pit-stop in the donee nation. Shameful, wasteful, and corrupt. Given all that- I'd rather send no money at all. Not just to Israel, but anywhere.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Me three, with Signy's caveats as well.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Well I disagree with your assessment for a start. The arguments about Israels possible collapse would hold weight for me if they were based off of economic factors (i.e. without U.S. aid Israel wouldn't be able to afford to feed its citizens), however since I'm pretty sure the arguments are based off of military factors I don't really agree with you.
There is of course a school of thought that we shouldn't get involved in the military issues of any other countries, personally I disagree with the complete isolationism that such opinions are based on, I agree that most of the things happening in the world are not our concern but I do believe that we should stand up for our allies (and I'm not convinced that Israel is friends with us just because of our aid).
You make the statement "If they can't stand on their own two feet by now, what does it tell us about them?", the answer is simple, it tells us that they are surrounded by enemies that all have decent-sized armies and who all hate Israel. We have the luxury of having neighbors that don't hate us and who have comparatively tiny militaries, Israel is no worse off than most countries in most parts of the world would be if all their neighbors conspired to attack them. Could Germany stand against all of western Europe? Could Iran have stood against the combined armies of their neighbors before we destroyed two of them?
I do agree with the assertion that if we withdrew aid that Israel would likely settle their differences more quickly though I disagree with the implication that Israel is impeded by their relationship with the U.S., or at least I disagree that the impediment is direct. Rather than serving as an obstacle to the ability of Israel to settle with their neighbors I think that the U.S. serves as a backup plan for them, we will bail them out if they run into problems so they see no real reason to avoid those problems.
All that being said I find myself in general agreement with Sig, I think that we should be using our foreign aid much more judiciously then we currently are. I do think that if we started to back off on Israels foreign aid that they would end up being better off for it, since they would be forced to actually come to terms with their neighbors.
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Quote:33 Billion dollars a year is a drop in the bucket to our economy yet it helps the Isrealis a great deal.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:Are there any who share my desire to end aid to Israel?
We don't have to worry about our support of Isreal pissing off the arabs. The arabs who want to do us in have gone way beyond being mad at us for supporting them, and graduated up to full on hatred of us for just who we are.
No real reason to stop comes to mind unless you don't like Jews and are in denial of that.
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Cut it, entire.
What rooks me the worst is when that foreign aid cash is rerouted into american politicians via AIPAC and other sham fronts to bend our politicians to the whim of a foreign county, in a perverse cycle of them throwing the aid in order to get a kickback cut of the dough.
Any other country interfered with our election process and got repeatedly caught committing sabotage and espionage against us, as often as they do... we'd be at war with by now.
It also doesn't help that we've in essence financed a regime as brutal in it's treatment of palestine as germany was to poland, common sense, that's pissin a lotta folks off.
That's their business, how they wanna do things, but WE might take lesson from the example that the more brutal the repression, the worse the violence gets... before it gets that bad here.
By all means, it's their country and they can run it as they please but NOT ON MY DIME.
And sure as hell I don't see the logic of directly financing a country that backstabs us and our interests at every opportunity.
Go ask the DEA where the primary source of Ecstacy flooding the streets tracks back to, go on, ask... and while yer at it ask around about Comverse Infosystems, Amdocs, and blown busts, too.
I don't hold with flaming an entire class of people cause of the bullshit pulled by their leadership, nor do I hold with the idea of some great grand conspiracy - but the crap they HAVE pulled, and continue to pull, fully justifies cutting them off completely.
And right now, WE need that money more than they do - I am not wholly against Foreign Aid, per se, but dammit not at the expense of our own people and infrastructure, both of which are in pretty damn rough shape by now.
Take care of US, OUR needs, OUR people, FIRST, curse it.
Might not be a popular point of view, that, but it's common freakin sense, to me.
-Frem
PS, Yo Anthony, it appears I am not the only one who has to go back and cut a bunch of space out of the end of my posts sometimes... any idea WHY this thing does that ?
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I think I agree with Fred on this. If we’re talking about a country that couldn’t support itself economically, then I would say that, except for humanitarian aide, they need to adjust their economy to be more self-sustaining. But Israel actually does pretty good economically - better typically then other regional nations, so Israel actually is a quite viable. The problem is that, as Fred pointed out, they are surrounded by enemies already have repeated tried to destroy Israel and most certainly would again were it not for US support. So by supporting Israel we are not propping up an unsustainable nation, but defending an ally from certain invasion by religious and ideologically driven hatred.
As far as preferring allies like Canada and the UK, well I guess I would have to give that a big “Duh.” It’s always easier to support allies that don‘t need our help, but does that mean we abandon our allies that do? I’m not sure I like that approach to foreign policy.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:Quote:33 Billion dollars a year is a drop in the bucket to our economy yet it helps the Isrealis a great deal.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:Are there any who share my desire to end aid to Israel?
We don't have to worry about our support of Isreal pissing off the arabs. The arabs who want to do us in have gone way beyond being mad at us for supporting them, and graduated up to full on hatred of us for just who we are.
No real reason to stop comes to mind unless you don't like Jews and are in denial of that.
Hello,
It seems that whenever the idea of stopping aid to Israel comes up, someone suggests that stopping aid to Israel = Hating Jews. For the record, this is an emotional lever used to avoid discussing the issue. If you don't want to argue the topic, then don't. But please discontinue the use of dishonest tactics.
As for the remainder of what you said: There seems to me a fallacy in your argument. That because we have sent billions in the past we should always send billions, and that billions are inconsequential sums of money.
Neither of those arguments makes any sense to me. I don't think you should enforce bad decisions indefinitely, and I don't think billions of dollars are drops in any bucket. This is why I become enraged whenever billions are appropriated for wars I don't agree with.
And now on to other arguments...
There are others who argue that without our military support, Israel would be overrun by her enemies. In fact, I don't think this is the case.
During the Six Day War, Israel defeated her enemies Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. That was during a time when the sophistication of her forces was in parity with her opponents. Israel now has a military sophistication far exceeding her likely opponents.
Further, if Israel maintains its alliances, they can always count on the threat of mutual defense.
Why, then, is continued spending necessary to prop up this nation?
Incidentally, I abhor aid to most of the countries that we send it to. Israel frequently comes up simply because they are one of our longest beneficiaries. I'd like to get them off the bottle.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:While anything’s possible, historically, Israel has handed the collective assess of combined nations that either did invade it’s borders or were preparing too. However, I don’t think that’s any more desirable and should be prevented, if possible.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
There are others who argue that without our military support, Israel would be overrun by her enemies. In fact, I don't think this is the case.
Quote:Part of the reason is that Israel and the US have close partnership in advanced defense research. A great deal of US defense technology has either come from Israeli research or has been aided by it.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Further, if Israel maintains its alliances, they can always count on the threat of mutual defense.
Why, then, is continued spending necessary to prop up this nation?
And for the record, I think that you can support cutting aid to Israel and not be anti-Semitic.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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I'd say phase it out over 10 years.
If there some sort of meaningful exchange of military hardware / intellectual property, by all means pay for that.
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Quote:Oh, Israel is our ally? Really? so- What have they done for us lately? Or even in the past 60 years?
It’s always easier to support allies that don‘t need our help, but does that mean we abandon our allies that do? I’m not sure I like that approach to foreign policy.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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I tend to think that Israel is our ally, though I also think they will always do what's best for them, which, you know, they'd be stupid if they didn't.
Israel does a lot of dirty work, as well. Politically they aren't nearly so squeamish as we often seem to be, and, wonder of wonders, they tend to be able to keep a secret.
as to the money we give them? I'm of two minds about that. On the one hand, they are the tiny country surrounded by people who want them destroyed. Obliterated. As such, I tend to think we should help them. It's always been American policy, at least in modern times, to support democratic governments. Israel is one.
But the amount of money? There I have to scratch my head. I don't think they need so much of our money, for sure. Of course, I don't think the UN needs it either. So what do I know? lol
As far as what they've done? We'll likely never know, since, as I said, they seem to be able to keep a secret. But when Iran's nuclear program get's destroyed, I'd be willing to bet there will be an Israeli to thank for it.
Whether that's a good or bad thing? I honestly don't know.
Bad_karma
Grand High President for Life, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.
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I would add that I don't see where cutting funding, or at least reducing it, in support of Israel somehow makes us anti-semitic, ( I think that's the term ) I know several people who are active practicing the jewish faith, and that's their business.
To say that someone who doesn't like funneling BILLIONS of US taxpayer dollars into Israel is, for that reason, an anti-semite, is rather childish.
But again, that's just me.
Bad_karma
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Quote:I think it should be noted that prior to and during the Six Day War Israel recieved aid and Weapons from both the United States and Britain. Theres also accusations of direct military support from Britain and the United States, but I have no idea how accurate they are, they could be Egyptian propeganda.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
There are others who argue that without our military support, Israel would be overrun by her enemies. In fact, I don't think this is the case.
During the Six Day War, Israel defeated her enemies Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. That was during a time when the sophistication of her forces was in parity with her opponents. Israel now has a military sophistication far exceeding her likely opponents.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:I think it should be noted that prior to and during the Six Day War Israel recieved aid and Weapons from both the United States and Britain. Theres also accusations of direct military support from Britain and the United States, but I have no idea how accurate they are, they could be Egyptian propeganda.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
There are others who argue that without our military support, Israel would be overrun by her enemies. In fact, I don't think this is the case.
During the Six Day War, Israel defeated her enemies Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. That was during a time when the sophistication of her forces was in parity with her opponents. Israel now has a military sophistication far exceeding her likely opponents.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
Hello,
I don't give much credence to the idea that Israel was receiving direct military assistance from the US during the Six day war.
As far as I know, we only had one asset in the immediate vicinity during the conflict. It was an intelligence ship called the USS Liberty.
History tells us that the USS Liberty and the Israeli military were not exactly swimming in mutual admiration or assistance.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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U.S. aid to Israel is more like a subsidy for American defense contractors than foreign aid. Most of the money goes to Israel in the form of high tech weapons like F16 fighters and Tomahawk missiles.
The US has very few true friends in the world and we should do all we reasonably can to support them.
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Quote:I really agree, I mentioned it because it's something I heard, but sounds rather more likely to be Egyptian propaganda that the other Arab allies also parroted. Either way the US and Britain did supply Israel with aid during and before the conflict. In the case of the US this was a cold war decision, Israel being a counterpoint to Russian backed Syria, so I don't think we can really use the Six Day War as an example of Israel's ability to operate entirely alone in it's present environment.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I don't give much credence to the idea that Israel was receiving direct military assistance from the US during the Six day war.
As far as I know, we only had one asset in the immediate vicinity during the conflict. It was an intelligence ship called the USS Liberty.
History tells us that the USS Liberty and the Israeli military were not exactly swimming in mutual admiration or assistance.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
It seems that whenever the idea of stopping aid to Israel comes up, someone suggests that stopping aid to Israel = Hating Jews. For the record, this is an emotional lever used to avoid discussing the issue. If you don't want to argue the topic, then don't. But please discontinue the use of dishonest tactics.
Excellent point Anthony. Those kinds of arguments always infuriate me. What I've meant to say to you before and never have until this point is that I really admire the way you make your arguments in a completely non argumentative way... all the way down to the small but not unnoticed fact that you make a point to politely begin every one of your posts with a "Hello,"
I tip my hat to ya for that. I myself have read Dale Caranige's work, but I just don't live it like you do. You exude his message repeatedly and consistantly in every one of your posts. That's no small feat that I can only hope that I could accomplish some day. Perhaps I will be able to when I've grown a little older and wiser. If you've never read his work, it's all the more impressive that this is your routine.
All of that being said, I do agree that we should not be supporting Israel. Although undecided about religion and God myself, I do believe that I probably stand up for it (Christianity, anyhow) more than most people on this board, but believing in the necessity of separation of Church and State as the only means of having a true Democratic Republic, I can't say that there really is any reason to funnel billions of dollars a year to them. I speak with several very religious people who agree with many of my points of view but we would bash heads about this point. So far, truthfully, everything that is Israel has been since the beginning has been predicted in the Bible and I know some people who KNOW in their hearts and minds that America will never abandon Israel.
Personally, if it were up to me, I would offer our friends there asylum in our country and cut those that rejected it off completely. Maybe they would survive, maybe they wouldn't. Who's to say?
On a personal and (I feel) related note, my Grandmother who I think the world of allowed me to stay at her house for five or so years after I got laid off in 2001. Living was cheap and easy those five years and I leeched off of her generosity and enablement. Fortunately, a situation presented itself to me that I couldn't pass up and although I had to move 100 or so miles from all of my friends and family, I was able to re-start my life 3 years ago.
She currently has two of her own children (full-fledged adults who had made some bad choices in life) living with her now as well. I love them, but I don't see any hope for what's left of their futures. She's not going to live forever and I don't see how they could ever possibly survive on their own after having been enabled to almost do nothing in order to survive for so long. Her other child, my uncle who was a Veteran and who I loved as a brother, shot himself in the head 2 years ago.
Rest in peace my man. I hope you found in the afterlife whatever it was that you weren't able to find here.
Sometimes you have to kick the bird out of the nest in order to teach it how to fly.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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The US did not supply Israel with arms during 1967 war. I'm doubt Britain did either. That war last a whole six days, and Israel won that war in the first day with airstrikes that destroyed Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq's airfields, given Israel air superiority. Even if the US wanted to support Israel with military aid, I'm not sure they could have done so in any significant way before that war ended. This is Arab propaganda. The Arabs have always hated the fact that they had their collective assess handed to them so many times by a bunch Jews, and the 1967 war was the most humiliating of all. Obviously, they are going to graps for any reason to say it didn’t happen.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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The six day war lasted six days? Really? No? Is that why they call it the six day war then?
The crises leading up to the six day war lasted a lot longer though, and Israel had been recieving US weapons since the early sixties. Specifically where I've heard about US and British material aid during the crisis period, which includes the six days of conflict, wasn't arab sources.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:Yes it did, and yes it is. How about that citizen - you learned something. Good for you.
Originally posted by citizen:
The six day war lasted six days? Really? No? Is that why they call it the six day war then?
Also the principle weapon by which Israel won the Six-Day War in the first day, were fighterjets from France, not US arms.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Hmm, and maybe one day your limited intellect could learn to grasp sarcasm eh
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Yes it did, and yes it is. How about that citizen - you learned something. Good for you.
.More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:Hmm, and maybe one day your limited intellect could learn to grasp sarcasm eh
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Yes it did, and yes it is. How about that citizen - you learned something. Good for you.
LOL... Even I got that one Finn.... and Cit is probably as close to a mortal enemy as I got.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:You mean like you! Wow, you get sarcasm so good!
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:Hmm, and maybe one day your limited intellect could learn to grasp sarcasm eh
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Yes it did, and yes it is. How about that citizen - you learned something. Good for you.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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I love jews! So I support America's aid to Israel. Shoot we wipe the Egyptian's slate clean. The 73 war Golda said when Israel needed Richard Nixon, Richard Nixon was their for Israel. Israel won the first 2 wars with ahabs but they were knocked down pretty hard in the 3rd one. The airforce dropped in with everything they needed. The USS Liberty was a spy ship that got sunk because the jews didn't want the ahabs knowing that Israel was going to strike first in the six day war of 67. I don't even mine all the reality tv we send to Great Britain.
"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".
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Quote:I got you were trying to be sarcastic Finn, it's just it only really works if I meant what I said, which since I obviously didn't, just makes yourself look foolish; but carry on, if that's what you want I mean.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You mean like you! Wow, you get sarcasm so good!
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:A friend is someone that you can count on for mutual support, not a leech stuck permanently to your teat.
The US has very few true friends in the world and we should do all we reasonably can to support them.
Israel has always followed Israel's interests, not ours. Once in a few decade our interests coincide, but mostly Israel just complicates our situation in the ME. We only support them because of their lobby in the US, which has us conflating our interests with theirs, and their fingers in our foreign policy. (Let me remind you again of the neocons: Wurmser, Feith, Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld, several of whom have demonstrated ties to the Likud party, and their biggest supporter Lieberman who referred to Israel as "us".)
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Hello,
Thanks everyone. And I appreciate it, Six. I'll have to check out that author's work.
It's true that we supplied Israel with weapons and equipment as well as cash prior to the Six day war. As Citizen pointed out, we did this to keep them in parity with their Soviet supplied enemies.
The days of parity have long passed, however. Israel is now technologically superior to their neighbors. They also have a much higher standard of training.
Let me put it this way: I wouldn't want our military to have to fight Israel.
Isn't it time, as someone said, to put the bird out of the nest? We can still be allies, trade intelligence, and have a mutual defense treaty. We can even maintain mutually beneficial joint development projects, like the one we entered into a while back to develop a point defense laser.
If there is any new information to put on the table, everyone feel free to do so. Or closing arguments, if not.
I appreciate everyone's positions on this, and I can sympathize with those who want to maintain aid, even though I haven't heard any logical arguments that would convince me to change my mind.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Oh, Israel is our ally? Really? so- What have they done for us lately? Or even in the past 60 years?
It’s always easier to support allies that don‘t need our help, but does that mean we abandon our allies that do? I’m not sure I like that approach to foreign policy.
What have any of our allies done for us in the last 60 years? We are the 600-pound gorilla, we are the ones who others turn to for help, most of them can't provide us with anything that we couldn't have handled on our own.
But Israel did give us the Core 2 processor, reason enough to keep them around in itself.
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And all for a mere $2.4 billion a year! Cheap at half the price!
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Also the principle weapon by which Israel won the Six-Day War in the first day, were fighterjets from France, not US arms.
I thought it was surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... their two weapons were fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Their *three* weapons were fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Their *four*...no... *Amongst* their weapons.... Amongst their weaponry...were such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
There are others who argue that without our military support, Israel would be overrun by her enemies. In fact, I don't think this is the case.
During the Six Day War, Israel defeated her enemies Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. That was during a time when the sophistication of her forces was in parity with her opponents. Israel now has a military sophistication far exceeding her likely opponents.
I have read in 1972 the Israeli airforce suffered losses of %185 of their aircraft, and without the transfer of American aircraft from Europe they would have lost the airwar at any rate.
Mind you I still say the aid the US provides actually destabilizes the area, Israel has broken as many treaty commitments as anyone, yet they suffer no penalty or reward for adhering to the treaty's they sign.
The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
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Quote:They're about on-par with Saddam Hussein in terms of ignored UN resolutions and aggressive actions, and they're well more advanced in their current arsenal of WMD. And they treat their minority almost as badly. With allies like that, who needs enemies?
Mind you I still say the aid the US provides actually destabilizes the area, Israel has broken as many treaty commitments as anyone, yet they suffer no penalty or reward for adhering to the treaty's they sign.
Quote:
During the period between 1967 and 2000, Iraq was the subject of 69 Security Council resolutions. By comparison, Israel, our closest "ally" in the Middle East, has been the subject of 138 resolutions. Not surprisingly, most of those resolutions call upon Israel to comply with basic principles of international law embodied by the UN Charter. Many of them condemn actions taken by Israel and call upon Israel on more than one occasion to comply with previous resolutions that Israel ignored and continues to ignore to this day.
www.mediamonitors.net/michaelsladah&suleimaniajlouni1.html
Of course, people who back Israel will continue to ignore these facts, just as they ignore the facts about President Bush. It's all about "us v them", and it doesn't seem to matter much what "we" do 'cause we're the "good guys".
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:And also Mirage Jets.
Originally posted by Fletch2:Quote:I thought it was surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... their two weapons were fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Their *three* weapons were fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Their *four*...no... *Amongst* their weapons.... Amongst their weaponry...were such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Also the principle weapon by which Israel won the Six-Day War in the first day, were fighterjets from France, not US arms.
(Though, I’m not sure about the fanatical devotion to the Pope thing.)
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:THANK YOU.
Originally posted by SignyM:
A friend is someone that you can count on for mutual support, not a leech stuck permanently to your teat.
Israel is a parasite that lives off guilt over her recent tragedies. That makes us all manner of co-dependent in all manner of dysfunctional ways.
Ally, my ass. Ask the survivors of the USS Liberty if Israel cares if our soldiers die.
Israel gets something like $600+ / capita from the USA. In context of its atrocious human rights record, that would be like our giving China $600 billion a year in aid. Since when did we start having "allies" that oppress entire nations as a matter of record?
Also, in case one didn't know, money is a positive reinforcer. That means, as long as you pay people to do something, they will keep doing it. We pay Israel to be at war--as long as we pay her, she'll keep being at war. She has no incentive to compromise, make deals, or otherwise play nice with the other kids.
Of course, if we let her loose now, she'll get lynched. It's a mess she's made; it's a mess we've made.
Did I say dysfunctional?
--------------------------
If a dog jumps in your lap, it is because he is fond of you; but if a cat does the same thing, it is because your lap is warmer.
--Alfred North Whitehead (1861 - 1947)
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America should not give any taxpayer money to any country, period.
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Lets finally be honest....
Israel was set up after WW2 as a place to drop the Jews, as there was no place in Europe that wanted them.
We twisted arms and laws to take the land from the Palestinians in order to do this.
We bullied our way onto their land, and put people who shouldnt have been there on it.
War broke out.
We gave aid to Israel to fight. We sent them all the weapons they could use. Including a nuke.
We still do this.
We also give most of our foreign aid budget to them.
The Jews kill Palestinians on a regular basis.
Using the cover of securing peace and fighting terrorism, they randomnly kill citizens.
The so-called Christians in this country want Israel to exist to fullfill what they consider prophesy.
The Jews in this country consider it a moral obligation to support Israel by any means.
Including propaganda.
The Jews learned a lot from the Nazis. Including, but not limited to:
Propaganda,
Manipulation,
Controlling the media,
Gaining support (through money) at the higher levels,
Using religion to benefit themselves,
Killing anyone who stands in their way,
Using political correctness to control speech.
We let it happen. Its our fault. We created this and then continue to feed it.
I say we cut off all foreign aid to everyone, for 2 years. Just 2 years. Let the chips fall where they may.
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Now this reeks of anti-Semitism.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Ahh..."Anti-semitism"...the catchall propaganda word for whenever someone disagrees with Israel or the Jews.
VERY Politically Correct of you.....
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You see Finn, I noticed that you had not one thing to say about the historical record concerning the founding of Israel- which is an accurate summary (I could add a lot of shit about Moshe Dyan and his pals), the fact that Israel has nukes and prolly chemical weapons*, has ignored over a hundred UN resolutions (the big whining point about Saddam... "But he ignored the UN Resolutions and somebody and to do something!! *whine whine*)... and has the Palestinians bottled up pretty much the same as the Warsaw ghetto.
So, if it makes you feel better, substitute the word "Zionist" for "Jew" and address the issues instead of name-calling.
* The El Al plane bound for Tel Aviv that crashed into a Dutch tenement had the basic chemicals on board to create about 300 kilos of Sarin. That explains the health problems of both the residents and responders, and also explains why all records of the first 30 hours of response (including audio and video-tapes and the plane's manifest) were destroyed with Dutch collusion. Fortunately, about 8 years later somebody leaked a manifest copy to the press and the Dutch government 'fessed up. Here's one link that I grabbed but there are a zillion others.
http://www.ameu.org/uploads/vol34_issue1_2001.pdf
---------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:No. It’s the catchall phrase for whenever an argument attempts to characterizes Jews in a negative one-sided light, such as your determination that “Jews” are killing Palestinians “on a regular basis” with little consideration for what is actually happening in the Israeli-Palestinian war. And then going on to compare the “Jews” to Nazis, and then posing a threat that we cut off all foreign aid for 2-years and “Let the chips fall where they may.”
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ahh..."Anti-semitism"...the catchall propaganda word for whenever someone disagrees with Israel or the Jews.
Tell me, if the chips fall so that Israel defeats the Arab nations that presumably attack them, then what? We start up foreign aid and we’re all good friends? Or is it your belief that the Jews won’t be able to hold out for two years, thus riding ourselves of the Jewish Question?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:So if I portray African-Americans in the United States with a negative one-sided view, but call them “Blacks” instead of “Niggers,” that wouldn’t be racism. I think we can see who the “dick” is.
Originally posted by SignyM:
So, if it makes you feel better, substitute the word "Zionist" for "Jew" and stop being such as dick.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Once again avoiding the issues. If what I write about blacks is negative but truthful... say.... "Blacks were brought forcibly to the United States as slaves. Their families and cultures were deliberately destroyed, and decades of being blocked from full participation in American civil, social, and economic life has weakened positive cultural values such as the desire for education and cooperation and led to suspicion of the dominant culture" ... is that racism?
So if I portray African-Americans in the United States with a negative one-sided view, but call them “Blacks” instead of “Niggers,” that wouldn’t be racism. I think we can see who the “dick” is.
I only consider it racism if you try to link a particular behavior to a person's race, ethnicity, or sex, portraying a particular characteristic as genetic. By that light, the only way to "fix a problem" is ethnic cleansing. Nobody here is saying that Jews are inherently anything. There is, however, a significant portion of Jews who believe that God gave them a portion of the Mideast so that they can live under their religious government, and that any and all means are allowed to create and maintain such a state. IMHO, that claim makes as much sense as any religious claim to land which is.... none. So, is that being anti-Semitic? Or anti-Zionist? (There is a difference you know, and it's not the same difference as "black" and "nigger".)
Finn, the only reason why you and most people support Israel is because you feel a religious sympathy. It has nothing to do with Israel being our ally or whether they've acted ethically. Yanno, I get it. I understand it, but you should too.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Negative, one-sided....oh boy. Give me a break.
Yes. Let the chips fall where they may. Maybe Israel would finally win and destroy her neighbors. It shouldn't be too hard with all the money they get from the diamond trade they control.
They can buy more weapons and governments with it.
*sigh
And yes, I do compare things. Especially when its such an easy comparison.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Once again avoiding the issues. If what I write about blacks is negative but truthful... say.... "Blacks were brought forcibly to the United States as slaves. Their families and cultures were deliberately destroyed, and decades of being blocked from full participation in American civil, social, and economic life has weakened positive cultural values such as the desire for education and cooperation and led to suspicion of the dominant culture" ... is that racism?
So if I portray African-Americans in the United States with a negative one-sided view, but call them “Blacks” instead of “Niggers,” that wouldn’t be racism. I think we can see who the “dick” is.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
The point he is trying to make is you can not take the actions of a small minority and impose them on a majority. (The very definition of stereotype).
You can't blame all Americans for the actions of Republicans. You can't blame all Blacks for the actions of Al Sharpton & Jesse Jackon. You can't blame "The Jews" for the actions of Israel.
When you fail to differentiate between the two, then your prejudice is seen... The "controls the diamond trade" line doesn't help either btw.
And whoever said "My tax money should stay in my country" is right on.
But really, the question is moot, since "Israeli Aid" is really nothing but "American Weapons Manufacturer Aid" and if all foreign countries disappeared tomorrow, by 7 AM the next day, Congress would authorize stockpiling weapons against the imminent Martian threat.
And need I point out that no nation/culture/civilization has clean hands?
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"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger
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Perhaps an alternative to the cutting off of aid is balanced aid. If a peace settlement is found and both the Israelis and the Palestinians sign on, they any aid to either side should be in parity so that one ceases to have any advantage over the other... except in the case of treaty violation in which case that side would be cut off.
That way, the path towards rebuilding would be rewarded, and straying would not.
The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
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Quote:I don't blame "the Jews" I blame the Zionists. If Wulfenstar doesn't make that distinctio then, yep, he has a problem.
You can't blame "The Jews" for the actions of Israel.
But Finn OTOH has made it a point to evade discussing the issues: Israel's founding and subsequent actions. IMHO Israel looks a lot like any other ME religious state, and they have WMD to boot.
I suspect that militant Orthodox Zionists don't share the same fellow-feeling towards Xtians that Xtians feel towards them. There is a long history of Xtians being the oppressor.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Of COURSE I make a distinction. The Jew down the street who isnt doing anything to anybody doesnt bother me.
Its the Zionists.
Also, I may have made a flippant remark about the diamond trade. But it is true. Look it up.
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Perhaps an alternative to the cutting off of aid is balanced aid. If a peace settlement is found and both the Israelis and the Palestinians sign on, they any aid to either side should be in parity so that one ceases to have any advantage over the other... except in the case of treaty violation in which case that side would be cut off.
That way, the path towards rebuilding would be rewarded, and straying would not.
The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
The problem with that is three-fold.
1.Corruption in the Palestinian Govt. is rampant. It constantly is cited as the #2 problem Palestinians face. When Arafat was alive, 33% of the ENTIRE aid given to the Palestinian people was used "to run his office." No questions asked.
2.The Palestinian leadership is not based on politics but along militant lines. When peace comes about, they will be out of a job so you really have to wonder how eager they are to see that.
3.The current Palestinian "leadership" would swear peace and with each attack shrug off any responsibility and blame it on a "splinter group" it has no control over.
Quote:
IMHO Israel looks a lot like any other ME religious state, and they have WMD to boot.
Israel is really not a religious state. Most of the Israelis never attend synagogue, keep kosher or even wear a skullcap. But you are right that it has its share of millitant nutballs and combined with its odd parliamentary system, it means they have a say in the govt.
Quote:
Of COURSE I make a distinction. The Jew down the street who isnt doing anything to anybody doesnt bother me.
Its the Zionists.
Also, I may have made a flippant remark about the diamond trade. But it is true. Look it up.
When you do not distinguish between the two, and constantly, throughout the entire post use The Jews instead of Zionists, Israelis, etc. then what are we to expect? If I were ranting against the NAACP but used the words "The Blacks" instead, the gist of the post is completely different.
And as for diamonds:
De Beers runs the diamond trade. They control about 60% of the world's supply and are responsible for keeping the prices artificially high. There is an exchange in Tel Aviv, but if you want the real culprit, look at South Africa.
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"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger
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Quote:Israel's nuclear weapons program was a joint effort with the French which the two nations developed separately, in much the same way as the Manhattan project was a joint project between America, Britain and Canada.
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Including a nuke.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by TragicStory:Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Perhaps an alternative to the cutting off of aid is balanced aid. If a peace settlement is found and both the Israelis and the Palestinians sign on, they any aid to either side should be in parity so that one ceases to have any advantage over the other... except in the case of treaty violation in which case that side would be cut off.
That way, the path towards rebuilding would be rewarded, and straying would not.
The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
The problem with that is three-fold.
1.Corruption in the Palestinian Govt. is rampant. It constantly is cited as the #2 problem Palestinians face. When Arafat was alive, 33% of the ENTIRE aid given to the Palestinian people was used "to run his office." No questions asked.
2.The Palestinian leadership is not based on politics but along militant lines. When peace comes about, they will be out of a job so you really have to wonder how eager they are to see that.
3.The current Palestinian "leadership" would swear peace and with each attack shrug off any responsibility and blame it on a "splinter group" it has no control over.Quote:
IMHO Israel looks a lot like any other ME religious state, and they have WMD to boot.
Israel is really not a religious state. Most of the Israelis never attend synagogue, keep kosher or even wear a skullcap. But you are right that it has its share of millitant nutballs and combined with its odd parliamentary system, it means they have a say in the govt.
1. All governments are corrupt, it is just to varying degree that they are responisble
2. If Peace = Cash, someone will come around
3. One of the nice things about running your own country is you control it, make that one of the responsibility's, plus lift all arms embargos so that they can combat their militants. Look at the recent strife, the PA didn't combat the other groups because they couldn't and win. Hard to blame Arfat there.
In reguards to Israel being a religious state, this is interesting
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/13997.htm
The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Of COURSE I make a distinction. The Jew down the street who isnt doing anything to anybody doesnt bother me.
Its the Zionists.
Also, I may have made a flippant remark about the diamond trade. But it is true. Look it up.
What about all the free air that Jews use up with their big noses? Does that bother you some Hans?...and did ya hear the one about the difference between a pizza and a Jew?
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As I said in my previous post. The Jew down the street, not bothering anyone...does not bother me.
HOWEVER...The ones pushing Zionistic policies, and decrying anyone who opposes them as an "anti-semite", DO bother me.
(Also, those who take this discussion to a racist level..."
I DO NOT CARE ABOUT ISRAEL. In fact, if it was gone tomorrow, I think the world would be a better place.
Harsh words, perhaps rash, I know. But think about it for a minute. Without Israel, there would be peace in the Middle East.
The fundamentalist Christians would bemaon the loss of it...but really, wouldn't they be better off too? Maybe then they could wake up from the "dogma of the Left Behind" a little. If their Rapture couldn't come, maybe they could rejoin society...just a little bit.
Hell, the Islamic folks might even call off their jihad...(long shot, I know) so we could back off from Iraq.
We would have all the money that we dump into Israel, and could use it for our own problems. (Instead of propping up a failed, evil, country that shouldnt exist in the first place.)
But while Im wishing, Id like to win the lottery...lol
......and a pony....one which doesn't bite.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
I DO NOT CARE ABOUT ISRAEL. In fact, if it was gone tomorrow, I think the world would be a better place.
Without Israel, there would be peace in the Middle East.
I'm not a middle eastern historian, but I believe that there has been a conflict in the region every few years for the last 1000 years or so. Did Israel somehow cause Saddam Hussein to invade Kuwait or did he want their oil and a platform to attack Saudi Arabia.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
I DO NOT CARE ABOUT ISRAEL. In fact, if it was gone tomorrow, I think the world would be a better place.
Harsh words, perhaps rash, I know. But think about it for a minute. Without Israel, there would be peace in the Middle East.
So you are saying that without Israel there will no longer be any sectarian violence? Let's just wipe Israel and her people off the map and Sunni will embrace Shia and all will be good again. Just curious, what was the Iran / Iraq war about again? Oh, that's right, it was Israel's fault.
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Quote:One of my colleagues at work remarked once that “Every racist knows a good nigger.” It doesn’t make any difference what words you use to sugar coat it. It’s not the word that is the problem. That’s what I tried to explain to Signym, but it just went in one ear and out the other. The problem is the negative one-sided way you describe the Palestinian-Israeli conflict to load the whole thing onto Jews. You describe this conflict as a bunch of Nazi-Jews who go to Palestine and start randomly killing Palestinians for no reason. That’s not what happened. It doesn’t make any difference whether you call them Jews, Zionists, Israelis or Fluffy Purple People Eaters. It’s your whole conception of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict that is completely screwed up. I don’t know if this is what you intended to say, but it is how you‘re coming across to me. If you would like to re-evaluate your position and get back to me, then I’ll reconsider it. If it is your intent to come across with an anti-Semitic argument, then that’s your prerogative too, but I’m not going to entertain discussion at that level.
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
As I said in my previous post. The Jew down the street, not bothering anyone...does not bother me.
HOWEVER...The ones pushing Zionistic policies, and decrying anyone who opposes them as an "anti-semite", DO bother me.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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1. All governments are corrupt, it is just to varying degree that they are responisble
2. If Peace = Cash, someone will come around
3. One of the nice things about running your own country is you control it, make that one of the responsibility's, plus lift all arms embargos so that they can combat their militants. Look at the recent strife, the PA didn't combat the other groups because they couldn't and win. Hard to blame Arfat there.
In reguards to Israel being a religious state, this is interesting
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/13997.htm
The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
1. Yes, but Palestine is "African Nation" corrupt. They are on par with Sudanese War Lords and military dictatorships. The more money you give, the more they take. The Palestinians live under the Mob for lack of a better term. Thugs with guns who take their money and don't even bother to call it taxes.
2. No one is going to give up power to go back to herding goats. You have to remember, most of the terrorists/millitants are uneducated, unskilled and beyond their terrorist/military training have no skills. Now, their boss might say "Yes" to peace, but they will not. No one will give up the power to go back to being a nobody.
3. In Palestine, off the top of my head, you have Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah, PLO, Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsah Mytars Brigade and each of them have splinter groups... Fatah said "peace" and Hamas took over the Gaza Strip. Now Fatah says its living up promise and Hamas keeps sending missiles into Israel. And Palestine has no problems getting weapons, they import them from the Middle East. The weapons caches Israel has found are amazing.
And as for religious, most Israeli Jews do not practice any form of religion. There are numerous religious laws but that is because of how their parliament is set up. The UltraOrthadoxNutballs have a small but needed block in the parliment that is needed for the "winner" of the elections to start building their coalition government.
-----------
"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger
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1. All governments are corrupt, it is just to varying degree that they are responisble
2. If Peace = Cash, someone will come around
3. One of the nice things about running your own country is you control it, make that one of the responsibility's, plus lift all arms embargos so that they can combat their militants. Look at the recent strife, the PA didn't combat the other groups because they couldn't and win. Hard to blame Arfat there.
In reguards to Israel being a religious state, this is interesting
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/13997.htm
The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
1. Yes, but Palestine is "African Nation" corrupt. They are on par with Sudanese War Lords and military dictatorships. The more money you give, the more they take. The Palestinians live under the Mob for lack of a better term. Thugs with guns who take their money and don't even bother to call it taxes.
2. No one is going to give up power to go back to herding goats. You have to remember, most of the terrorists/millitants are uneducated, unskilled and beyond their terrorist/military training have no skills. Now, their boss might say "Yes" to peace, but they will not. No one will give up the power to go back to being a nobody.
3. In Palestine, off the top of my head, you have Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah, PLO, Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsah Mytars Brigade and each of them have splinter groups... Fatah said "peace" and Hamas took over the Gaza Strip. Now Fatah says its living up promise and Hamas keeps sending missiles into Israel. And Palestine has no problems getting weapons, they import them from the Middle East. The weapons caches Israel has found are amazing.
And as for religious, most Israeli Jews do not practice any form of religion. There are numerous religious laws but that is because of how their parliament is set up. The UltraOrthadoxNutballs have a small but needed block in the parliment that is needed for the "winner" of the elections to start building their coalition government.
-----------
"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The problem is the negative one-sided way you describe the Palestinian-Israeli conflict to load the whole thing onto Jews. You describe this conflict as a bunch of Nazi-Jews who go to Palestine and start randomly killing Palestinians for no reason. That’s not what happened. It doesn’t make any difference whether you call them Jews, Zionists, Israelis or Fluffy Purple People Eaters. It’s your whole conception of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict that is completely screwed up.
Bravo! You stated it perfectly. Jew haters only see the parts of the news and history they want to...the part where Israel looks bad. They fail to realize and understand that Israel has consistently over the last 4 decades attempted to make peace with these people. It has always been some element of "The Palestinians" which commit a murderous atrocity to end the peace...then Israel answers back...but usaully the media don't cover the entire story...just that some kid got shot by Israeli troops. The Palestinian have become the greatest group of useful idiots for Jew haters worldwide since Nazi geneticists announced their racial theories back in the 1930's. Heinrich Himmler, head of the SS and self-appointed expert on racial purity would be grinning ear to ear these days.
Also, there are no Zionists. That faction of Israel disappreared in the late 1940's. That's just a term that Jew haters like to use so as to appear not so trogladytic. By all rights there shouldn't even be an Egypt, or Syria, or Lebanopn today. Israel was sneak-atacked by coalition forces of the UAR
and defeated those countries in a humiliatingly swift manner. If Israel was "zionistic" in any way their country would be about 100 times larger than it is today, and they wouldn't have any hostile neighbors.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The problem is the negative one-sided way you describe the Palestinian-Israeli conflict to load the whole thing onto Jews. You describe this conflict as a bunch of Nazi-Jews who go to Palestine and start randomly killing Palestinians for no reason. That’s not what happened. It doesn’t make any difference whether you call them Jews, Zionists, Israelis or Fluffy Purple People Eaters. It’s your whole conception of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict that is completely screwed up.
Bravo! You stated it perfectly. Jew haters only see the parts of the news and history they want to...the part where Israel looks bad. They fail to realize and understand that Israel has consistently over the last 4 decades attempted to make peace with these people. It has always been some element of "The Palestinians" which commit a murderous atrocity to end the peace...then Israel answers back...but usaully the media don't cover the entire story...just that some kid got shot by Israeli troops. The Palestinian have become the greatest group of useful idiots for Jew haters worldwide since Nazi geneticists announced their racial theories back in the 1930's. Heinrich Himmler, head of the SS and self-appointed expert on racial purity would be grinning ear to ear these days.
Also, there are no Zionists. That faction of Israel disappreared in the late 1940's. That's just a term that Jew haters like to use so as to appear not so trogladytic. By all rights there shouldn't even be an Egypt, or Syria, or Lebanopn today. Israel was sneak-atacked by coalition forces of the UAR
and defeated those countries in a humiliatingly swift manner. If Israel was "zionistic" in any way their country would be about 100 times larger than it is today, and they wouldn't have any hostile neighbors.
So you are denying that the UN set up Israel? That they (the US included) took the land from the Palestinians and just gave it to someone else? Ok....
So...by your reasoning, if the Native Americans had the means to fight back, and used any and all means neccessary...they would have been in the wrong for doing so? It would be one-sided to say that the Europeans who came to this country, robbed and pillaged, were wrong?
Wow....
Ok, I can understand why you are so vehement about Israel. After the shit and horror the Nazis visited on them, the Jews took the land and decided to hold on.. NO-MATTER-WHAT.
Fine. There are a lot of cases in the world where nations were formed by people who did the same thing. Great. My issue is, WHY THE FRAK ARE WE GIVING THEM OUR MONEY?
Why do we allow the news stories to propagandize the "heroic" Jews fighting the good fight and killing Palestinian "terrorists" ( i.e. some terrorists, some women and children).
Where is the balanced coverage?
Its not one-sided, you are correct. But the Jews of Israel, and even of America, have as much blood on their hands as any Palestinian. The Israelis are not innocent defenders of their country. They routinly engage in covert operations to assinate Palestinian leaders, lauch rockets into Palestine (killing women and children), build walls to make Palestine areas a ghetto, deny or reroute water supplies, and genrally act like terroists themselves.
Its the same ugly thing.
Now answer the questions Ive proposed:
1. Why are we giving money to Israel.
2. Why is there no balanced coverage by the media of what is really happening.
3. Why should Americans even care what is going on over there? Other than our duty as the worlds policeman I mean.
4. Why must you call anyone who disagrees with what the Jews are doing in Israel "Jew-haters", "anti-semites" ect? Is that your only answer? Using propaganda words, and political correctness to try and force me into your way of thinking? If so, then you are simply proving my point from above about how the Jews learned well from the Nazis.
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I read your spin, and I sense your desperation. There is ZERO moral equivalency between Israel & Palestinians. For decades Arafat STOLE ALL the Palestininans money & blamed Jews. He hid it away in banks in Switzerland, and his wife lives even today like a queen in France. Every time Israel conceded a point to make peace, Arafat or some other splinter group would launch strikes inside Israel to dis-engage the process...Arafat liked getting his "aid" money a lot! Israel doesn't send women & children strapped with suicide bombs to blow up innocents in a pizzaria. They do go into Palestinian areas and demolish houses of suicide bombers, and they do target bomb makers and leaders who instruct, and forcibly coerce people to commit atrocities for them.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Now answer the questions Ive proposed:
1. Why are we giving money to Israel.
Because as you stated earlier, the U.S., as part of the U.N., established the State of Israel. I'm sure Israel gets money from other U.N. countries as well.
Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
2. Why is there no balanced coverage by the media of what is really happening.
So Palestine is not lobbing missles into Israel and Israel is not firing back?
For that matter, why is there no balanced coverage of the Iraq war?
Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
3. Why should Americans even care what is going on over there? Other than our duty as the worlds policeman I mean.
Please see my first response.
Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
4. Why must you call anyone who disagrees with what the Jews are doing in Israel "Jew-haters", "anti-semites" ect? Is that your only answer? Using propaganda words, and political correctness to try and force me into your way of thinking? If so, then you are simply proving my point from above about how the Jews learned well from the Nazis.
Same reason you don't blame all Americans if you do not like certain policies of the U.S. Government. It is short-sighted and wrong IMHO.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I read your spin, and I sense your desperation. There is ZERO moral equivalency between Israel & Palestinians. For decades Arafat STOLE ALL the Palestininans money & blamed Jews. He hid it away in banks in Switzerland, and his wife lives even today like a queen in France. Every time Israel conceded a point to make peace, Arafat or some other splinter group would launch strikes inside Israel to dis-engage the process...Arafat liked getting his "aid" money a lot! Israel doesn't send women & children strapped with suicide bombs to blow up innocents in a pizzaria. They do go into Palestinian areas and demolish houses of suicide bombers, and they do target bomb makers and leaders who instruct, and forcibly coerce people to commit atrocities for them.
You still have not answered my questions. If you can't thats ok.
If you won't...well thats a different story. It means the truth will destroy your argument.
As to the moral argument. If the UN or some other agency decided to give parts of America to some other hostile nation....for whatever reason....and we didnt have the milatary might we now enjoy.....and the only means of fighting back was through suicide bombers....well I would hope that it wouldn't come to that, but if it did, I would also hope that there would be true patriots who would fight back with any and all means neccessry.
Don't get me wrong, the Palestinians are fighting stupidly (perhaps evily). But its from a position of weakness and desperation.
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Your first mistake, Wulf, is trying to reason with a zealot.
The second would be buying any of what they're selling you.
You know, the very worst irony of this, is that if you go back along the path of history, like, way back... Muslims and Jews used to be quite good friends, overall.
The Jews would seek refuge with them from endless Christian persecution (and by the way they backstab em at every turn and corner, I doubt they've forgotten it) and even in many cases lived in shared communities...
The shining jewel of which was Medina, a city that was mutually shared by Christians, Muslims and Jews all living with each other peacefully under a treaty known as the Medina Compact, written by Mohammed himself in an attempt to bring peace between all the children of Ibrihim/Abraham - which, of course, in the end, did not work out too well, but it did, for a time.
Now, post WWII, as had been their policy for long and many years, the middle eastern nations were willing to offer them comfort and shelter, but land in the middle east... especially USEABLE land, is of a value you just cannot understand, you have to understand the history behind it, and why they are territorial to such a psychotic degree, is the rarity of useable land, and thus, the ONLY way you take turf in the middle east is by killing every living thing on it, period.
And with the massive influx of refugees, the jewish leaders of the time were very desperate, and felt a need to secure enough land to ensure their survival as a people, and remember what I said about the only way you can take it, right ?
Now imagine the reaction of folk who had ignored both Christian and Nazi propaganda about how treacherous and horrible these people were, folk who place a MUCH higher respect (often with violent consequences) on the principles of hospitality in general.
(See Also: Pashtunwali, for example)
And imagine their reaction to having their land taken, people slaughtered, by those Jews they so often aided and sheltered, and the UN, and those damned Christians (who sure as hell did not want these guys in THEIR country, being that historically they've been an uneasy neighbor..) helping it right along, ramming a dagger into the spine of the one people who more than any other treated them with respect.
That kind of a thing, especially given the actions of a nation that essentially began AS a rogue nation (See Also: Irgun) and has continued to be in every way shape and form (See Also: UN Sanctions) with a demonstrable habit of collective slaughter for little to no reason...
You know, like the incident that finally set ME against them, using helicopter gunships and armaments more or less given to them by the US, to rocket a street where a suspected "terrorist" might have been as a local school let out, slaughtering a great many children, and for nothing, cause they certainly didn't bag the guy, even if he existed - that was a turning point for me - they ARE a rogue state, as a people, meh, they're people, but that so-called-country has made it's own bed over there.
And the saddest damned part of it all is that the Palestinians are doing exactly the same thing, for exactly the same reasons - they feel their existance as a people is threatened, which let's be blunt, it IS, and that they are being pushed into the sea and ethnic cleansed in slow motion, with a damned lot of evidence to back the claim.
When you remove the incentive, even the MEANS, for a person to return to their life, if they have nothing to return to, nothing to rebuild and little chance of doing so without their oppressor just kicking their sand castle over again - THAT is what makes folks strap bombs to their chest and set them off in crowded cafes.
But in the end, for me, it comes back to those helicopter gunships, made in the good ole USA, with american ordinance beneath, and the bloody screams of torn apart schoolchildren as our gift to their oppressors murdered them.
To have my money taken by threat of force, which is what Taxation really is, and then handed over to TH
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Amen Frem. I cannot agree with you more.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I read your spin, and I sense your desperation. There is ZERO moral equivalency between Israel & Palestinians. For decades Arafat STOLE ALL the Palestininans money & blamed Jews. He hid it away in banks in Switzerland, and his wife lives even today like a queen in France. Every time Israel conceded a point to make peace, Arafat or some other splinter group would launch strikes inside Israel to dis-engage the process...Arafat liked getting his "aid" money a lot! Israel doesn't send women & children strapped with suicide bombs to blow up innocents in a pizzaria. They do go into Palestinian areas and demolish houses of suicide bombers, and they do target bomb makers and leaders who instruct, and forcibly coerce people to commit atrocities for them.
You still have not answered my questions. If you can't thats ok.
If you won't...well thats a different story. It means the truth will destroy your argument.
As to the moral argument. If the UN or some other agency decided to give parts of America to some other hostile nation....for whatever reason....and we didnt have the milatary might we now enjoy.....and the only means of fighting back was through suicide bombers....well I would hope that it wouldn't come to that, but if it did, I would also hope that there would be true patriots who would fight back with any and all means neccessry.
Don't get me wrong, the Palestinians are fighting stupidly (perhaps evily). But its from a position of weakness and desperation.
Why should I answer your questions? Were they even directed at me? You fail to read my posts, and your continued selective obtuseness here strongly indicates that you are just another lemming in a long history of good ole'fashioned Jew haters. You and your Israel-hating friends here may not be as blatantly biased and hateful as your kindred spirits in Iran and at KKK Hdqtrs, but I see right through your rhetoric for what it really is.
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Jongsstraw.
Wow. Nevermind. I have no intention of matching wits with someone who is working with only half of theirs.
You are a zealot, and as such, I will not bother with you anymore.
Now...can anyone answer the questions I've proposed, intelligently and logically?
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Hello,
When words like 'Jew Hater' get thrown into this discussion, it stops being a discussion and begins to become polarized warfare.
That is too bad, because this might have been more constructive.
For my own part, you could label the participants Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Bajorans, or Gorn, and it wouldn't change the dynamics of the situation.
Maybe I am a Bajoran hater, but if you say that, it becomes plainly silly, whereas if you say "Jew Hater" it carries a strong moral bludgeon.
Unfortunately, by wielding the bludgeon, you demonstrate the inadequacy of your ability to discuss the topic. If you can't win an argument without villainizing your foe, then your argument is inherently flawed.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Jongsstraw.
Wow. Nevermind. I have no intention of matching wits with someone who is working with only half of theirs.
You are a zealot, and as such, I will not bother with you anymore.
Now...can anyone answer the questions I've proposed, intelligently and logically?
This little piece of the thread started when YOU RESPONDED TO ME when I agreed & applauded Finn. You chose to engage me....so just piss off! And give us a Zeig Heil for the road.
Finally, congratulations on learning a new word today...zealot ( of course you had to hear it from The Minister), but hey, it still counts.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I read your spin, and I sense your desperation. There is ZERO moral equivalency between Israel & Palestinians. For decades Arafat STOLE ALL the Palestininans money & blamed Jews. He hid it away in banks in Switzerland, and his wife lives even today like a queen in France. Every time Israel conceded a point to make peace, Arafat or some other splinter group would launch strikes inside Israel to dis-engage the process...Arafat liked getting his "aid" money a lot! Israel doesn't send women & children strapped with suicide bombs to blow up innocents in a pizzaria. They do go into Palestinian areas and demolish houses of suicide bombers, and they do target bomb makers and leaders who instruct, and forcibly coerce people to commit atrocities for them.
You still have not answered my questions. If you can't thats ok.
If you won't...well thats a different story. It means the truth will destroy your argument.
As to the moral argument. If the UN or some other agency decided to give parts of America to some other hostile nation....for whatever reason....and we didnt have the milatary might we now enjoy.....and the only means of fighting back was through suicide bombers....well I would hope that it wouldn't come to that, but if it did, I would also hope that there would be true patriots who would fight back with any and all means neccessry.
Don't get me wrong, the Palestinians are fighting stupidly (perhaps evily). But its from a position of weakness and desperation.
Hello,
If all else failed, absolutely we would have suicide warriors. I always think it is interesting that we, as a western nation, embrace the 'suicide mission' to achieve a vital objective...
but we turn around and villainize the 'suicide bomber' who drives a truck into a military base and destroys himself, or the kamikaze fighter that crashes himself into a ship, or the speedboat driver who explodes a warship in harbor.
The question What Would We Do? isn't asked enough. The truth is, we are a lot like our enemies, in more ways than we care to admit.
I do not suggest that we should not war with people who have violently opposed interests, but we should understand them, and understand the real reasons we are fighting them. It is not necessary to envision your opponent as an orc or a goblin in order to fight him. If you have to do that... if you have to label someone and invent a monster in order to fight them... perhaps you shouldn't be fighting them at all.
The arab nations are fond of creating the Evil Jew Monster, which is as bad as us creating the Evil Arab Monster. (Or Muslim Monster.)
It's important for people to understand that the middle east wars are about perceived injustice and resources. If Sweden wiped out all the Jews and occupied Israel, the same war would be fought with new players. It would now be the Evil Swede Monster vs. the Evil Arab Monster or Palestinian Monster and on etc. The Arabs would want to push the Swedes into the Sea instead of the Jews. It would all be happening with new labels and new propaganda.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Anthony,
You are correct. This may have been more constructive. However, unfortunatly, this is an issue which has too much emotion embroiled in it.
Straight logic dictates that we end foreign aid to Israel, and use it for ourselves. But, for the reasons mentioned above, and our own sense of "guilt"... we don't.
Foreign Aid to Israel and Affirmative Action are 2 sides of the same coin. Both are tossed in the air to compensate for a lack of intelligence and/or logic.
Still waiting for an INTELLIGENT response to my questions.
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So, Finn- Care to address the issues so eloquently brought up by Frem and Wulf?
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Still waiting for an INTELLIGENT response to my questions.
Ouch.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
If all else failed, absolutely we would have suicide warriors. I always think it is interesting that we, as a western nation, embrace the 'suicide mission' to achieve a vital objective...
but we turn around and villainize the 'suicide bomber' who drives a truck into a military base and destroys himself, or the kamikaze fighter that crashes himself into a ship, or the speedboat driver who explodes a warship in harbor.
I don't believe we villainize "suicide bombers" that strike military targets any more than any other enemy combatant. You are confusing the villainization of those that target innocent civilians with those that strike "legitimate" military targets. Are you saying there's no difference between the US military sending a person on an important mission with a high probability of failure, and a Palestinian suicide bomber blowing up innocent Israels in a shopping mall. I can't remember the last time our military strapped a bomb on a soldier and blew up innocent civilians for no strategic reason. Sure we kill innocents all the time but we don't target them.
I fail to see the moral equivalency between a high risk "suicide mission", and placing so little value on the lives of your soldiers that you strap a bomb on them to kill civilians.
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Quote:Not really. As I explained to Wulf, I’m completely uninterested in dicussing this topic at that level. Discussing the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict is one thing, but if it’s hating Jews...count me out.
Originally posted by SignyM:
So, Finn- Care to address the issues so eloquently brought up by Frem and Wulf?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Well then, care to discuss the founding of Israel?
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Well then, care to discuss the founding of Israel?
I'm game. Where would you have established the State of Israel?
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If it were up to me, nowhere.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Well,... it's an answer.
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If you were part of a people without a homeland, a people that had barely survived a genocide that killed millions wouldn't you want somewhere --- a defendable space and your own military to protect you?
That's the problem with this whole deal. I can't think of any group of people that wouldn't want somewhere safe, somewhere where they were not dependent on someone else for defence after an event like the holocaust.
Doesn't mean that taking arab land was right, but you can at least understand the motivation behind it.
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Well, the Brits screwed the Palestinians over from the very beginning (British mandate of Palestine)
Quote:
The Palestinian Arabs felt ignored by the terms of the Mandate. Though at the beginning of the Mandate they constituted a 90 percent majority of the population, the text only referred to them as "non-Jewish communities" that, though having civil and religious rights, were not given any national or political rights. ... In contrast the text included six articles (2, 4, 6, 7, 11 and 22) with obligations for the mandatory power to foster and support a "national home" for the Jewish people. Moreover a representative body of the Jewish people, the Jewish Agency, was recognised.
The Palestinian Arab leadership repeatedly pressed the British to grant them national and political rights like representative government, reminding the British of president Wilson's Fourteen Points, the Covenant of the League of Nations, British promises during World War I, and their natural rights as a people. The British however made acceptance of the terms of the Mandate a precondition for any change in the constitional position of the Palestinian Arabs. For the Palestinian Arabs this was unacceptable, as they felt that this would be "self murder". During the whole interwar period the British, appealing to the terms of the Mandate, which they had designed themselves, rejected the principle of majority rule or any other measure that would give a Palestinian Arab majority control over the government of Palestine.
... Not having a recognised body of representatives was a severe handicap for the Palestinain Arabs compared to the Zionists. The Jewish Agency was entitled to diplomatic representation e.g. in Geneva before the League of Nations Permanent Mandates Commission, while the Palestinian Arabs had to be represented by the British.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:This goes back to 1918, it didn't start in 1948 or even 1935.
If you were part of a people without a homeland, a people that had barely survived a genocide that killed millions wouldn't you want somewhere
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Hello,
I wanted to address a couple of comments.
Q1) If I were an oppressed people, recently the subject of attempted genocide, wouldn't I want somewhere safe to call my home?
A) Absolutely. If I were an oppressed person in the world, there would be two options at the top of my list. 1 - Carve out a safe place of my own, or 2 - migrate to someone else's safe place where I am welcome.
As far as I know, no nation wanted to absorb tens or hundreds of thousands of immigrants. So, that leaves carving out my own home. It so happens the Jewish people have an ancestral homeland that was lost in ancient times, and it must have seemed like a natural choice. In practice, they chose a region which may possibly be the most hostile environment for Jewish people anywhere in the world. They are completely surrounded by enemies, with their backs to the sea. I often wonder if there weren't more practical choices. However, the Israelis have matured in power, and seem fully capable of defending the little strip of land they call home, however impractical a choice it may have been in the beginning.
Q2) Aren't we morally superior to suicide bombers because a) we value our soldiers highly enough to not 'waste' them by strapping bombs to them, and b) we don't intentionally target civillians?
A) I'm not entirely sure. We generally aren't desperate enough to 'waste' our soldiers in suicide missions or attacks, but if we were in desperate circumstances, I'm sure we would do so rather than embrace defeat. As for not targetting civilians, I will grant you that we haven't done it lately. However, it is within the living memory of this nation that we firebombed civilian population centers in Germany and Japan. This carpet firebombing of cities did not target military bases or installations, but rather sought to break the enemy's will to fight and obliterate their infrastructure. One might convincingly argue that in the midst of the 'morally purest' war of the 20th century, the United States engaged in the wholesale slaughter of civilians as part of a terrorist campaign against our enemies. We were fortunate enough to be able to do this without blowing up our own troops.
The idea of civilians being safe in the midst of war is a fairly new and exotic concept in the history of warfare, and it is a concept that I believe would dissolve swiftly if we ever again faced a war where we did not completely outclass our enemies in every measurable way.
None of this makes the targeting of civilians palatable to me, nor am I suggesting that we give three cheers for terrorist bombers. But if we bother to take five minutes to imagine ourselves in our enemy's shoes, we might come to understand why they feel compelled to use these tactics. They are far less evil than we imagine, and far more desperate than we've considered.
May we never be in their place.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:I think you’re thinking of the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which was ratified in 1922 by the League of Nations, but it goes back further than that. The Holocaust, as awful as it was, was just the proverbial straw. Jews had been subject to discrimination an a scale largely unheard of in the last 1000 years. Zionism began in the 19th century in Russia as a response to centuries of abuse and widespread Pogroms that killed thousands of Jews and terrorized thousands more. The Holocaust pretty much proved what many Jews and Non-Jews alike had known for decades. Absent a Jewish nation, Jews will always be an underclass subject to discrimination and slander by anyone who needs a scapegoat to blame or something to hate.
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:This goes back to 1918, it didn't start in 1948 or even 1935.
If you were part of a people without a homeland, a people that had barely survived a genocide that killed millions wouldn't you want somewhere
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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So the answer to Jewish persecution is to grab someone else's land and persecute them.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:No, the answer was opening immigration, in particular, out of Russia and Poland and later Germany and France, to a non-Christian part of the British Empire. The eastern fifth of the Palestinian Mandate seemed like a logical place to start considering it had ancestral significance in the Jewish religion.
Originally posted by SignyM:
So the answer to Jewish persecution is to grab someone else's land and persecute them.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:So OOC, since the Brits were so generous with other people's land, why didn't they open up their own borders? They didn't they want to give up their own precious land, jobs, and cultural/ religious homogeneity perhaps, so they decided to shuffle the problem off on someone else? Someone who wasn't "worth" as much as the Brits or the Jews? With their relative generosity towards the Jews and disregard for Arab Palestinians it sure comes across that way.
No, the answer was opening immigration, in particular, out of Russia and Poland and later Germany and France, to a non-Christian part of the British Empire. The eastern fifth of the Palestinian Mandate seemed like a logical place to start considering it had ancestral significance in the Jewish religion.
So, the Palestine Mandate was a big cock-up which resulted in the lot of dispossessed and pissed-off natives. And all because the so-called Xtian nations didn't want to put up with Jews in their own borders, and it still goes on that way. (But come to think of it, persecuting natives is something American colonialists did to ensure their own "freedom from persecution", so I guess its a comforting and familiar story to us.)
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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You'll note the key word here - desperation.
Post WWII, the Jewish people were awful damned desperate, and sure, let's not blind ourselves, committed some awful deeds they felt necessary to secure the continued existance of their people.
It is that they CONTINUE to do so, that rooks me.
And as stated above, historically the middle eastern nations were as a rule LESS hostile to them than anyone else - but when a people whom you have historically sheltered, offered aid, comfort and hospitality starts slaughtering your people and taking your precious land, over there, that's an offense of a level I cannot effectively describe to most westerners, on top of which, both sides are rather legendary in their ability to hold a grudge.
And when the now equally desperate Palestinians resort to the same measures, for the same reasons, it's somehow less justified than the actions of the Irgun were ?
No, I do not think so.
Desperation drives folk, any folk, to do some downright awful things, and maybe if anyone involved had an ounce of sense, they'd try to avoid backin people into corners where they feel those measures are necessary.
Awful hard to grow food for your family if you ain't got no useable LAND to do it on, mere population pressure, combined with an ever-expanding border crushing them into the sea, is a substantive root cause of the problem.
It's like two starving men fighting over a loaf of bread and mostly tearing it to shreds, but that discounts the fact that we're there stuffing MREs into the back pocket of the one, and they're STILL wrestling for that damn loaf of bread on top of it.
How they behave, in the end, is up to them, MY problem is with us financing it, and everyone who knows that hating us as a direct result.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:That’s not very accurate. Jews did immigrate to Britain, as they did to the US and other allied nations, but these countries are all part of a similiar culture, and I’m sure it was hard to avoid viewing it as just moving the problem from one country to another. I’m sure a lot of Jews immigrated to Germany to avoid the Pogroms in Russia, for instance - a lot of good that did. And the Palestinian Mandate was part of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire - it had no government - and much of it was unoccupied waste lands. It was never the British intent to displace the native population in the Palestinian Mandate. That was stated even in the Balfour Declaration. The British limited Jewish immigration to only the Eastern fifth of the Palestinian Mandate and placed many restrictions on how and what land they could purchase or even where they could go.
Originally posted by SignyM:
So OOC, since the Brits were so generous with other people's land, why didn't they open up their own borders? They didn't they want to give up their own precious land, jobs, and cultural/ religious homogeneity perhaps, so they decided to shuffle the problem off on someone else? Someone who wasn't "worth" as much as the Brits or the Jews? With their relative generosity towards the Jews and disregard for Arab Palestinians it sure comes across that way.
So, the Palestine Mandate was a big cock-up which resulted in the lot of dispossessed and pissed-off natives. And all because the so-called Xtian nations didn't want to put up with Jews in their own borders, and it still goes on that way. (But come to think of it, persecuting natives is something American colonialists did to ensure their own "freedom from persecution", so I guess its a comforting and familiar story to us.)
The situation is not nearly as black and white as you insist on viewing it, but if the only way you can understand this situation is to hate one group of people or another, then hating the Jews is definitely the least accurate way to go, since they were just looking for some kind of security and nationality. But the British really aren’t the bad guys either.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerPage.jhtml
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Fact Check: Did Joe Biden Fall Asleep While Meeting Israel's President?
https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-joe-biden-fall-asleep-meeting-isra
el-president-1814068
he was filmed speaking with Israel's president Isaac Herzog
President Biden meets with Israeli President Isaac Herzog
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Quote:Crowley wrote: "Corrupt, senile hack mumbles his way into a nap while sitting with a foreign head of state." However, the video that was shared by Crowley was edited to help create the impression that Joe Biden had fallen asleep during the conversation with Herzog.
Originally posted by JAYNEZTOWN:
Fact Check: Did Joe Biden Fall Asleep While Meeting Israel's President?
Why did you post lies, Jayneztown? Already know why Crowley lies. Crowley works for Trump. https://twitter.com/MonicaCrowley/status/1681365799842324485
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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Joe Biden* falls asleep at every meeting. Joe Biden* is a narcoleptic pedophile.
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How you do anything is how you do everything.
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US expressed deep concern to Israel over Rafah airstrike, State Department says
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/us-expressed-deep-concern-israel
-over-rafah-airstrike-state-department-says-4369601
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'Decoding Democracy: Abby Martin'
'Anti-Genocide 2024 Candidate Jill Stein'
https://rumble.com/v4ws71k-anti-genocide-2024-candidate-jill-stein.htm
l
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Second Navy aircraft carrier arrives in Mideast amid regional conflict fears
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/uss-abraham-lincoln-aircraft-carrier-arri
ves-in-mideast-amid-regional-conflict-fears/
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Asscrackistan was a huge pit of burning money but now there are other things to fund by the warmongering UniParty, Ukraine stalemate of war and Israel bombing people
and a speaker blames ‘botched Afghanistan withdrawal’ and Harris-Biden admin ‘open border policies’ for ISIS-inspired Election Day terror plot
Biden immigration failure and Afghanistan bugout almost caused an Election Day terror nightmare
https://nypost.com/2024/10/11/opinion/biden-immigration-failure-and-af
ghanistan-bugout-almost-caused-an-election-day-terror-nightmare/
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Joe Biden is a narcoleptic ...
.
I'm not sure about the hair sniffer moments
but he is old, maybe was exhausted, he looks fresher more energy and life now that he has retired from running...but was it his choice or a DeepState Uniparty political coup?
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Ethno Religious Race voting
'Opinion: For Arab Americans furious over Gaza, are fears about Trump enough to vote Harris'?
https://usatoday.com/story/opinion/
usatoday.com/story/opinion/columnist/2024/10/30/harris-arab-american-voters-muslims-gaza-ceasefire/75917451007/
Rudy Giuliani, used a campaign-approved speech at Trump's rally in New York City on Sunday to assail Palestinian toddlers as dangerous.
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USA might say little until they hit a Saudi or a Turk aid convoy...then it gets serious for the USA.
Israel pummels Gaza and Lebanon, killing dozens in latest waves of deadly airstrikes
https://japantoday.com/category/world/palestinian-hospitals-death-toll
-from-israeli-strikes-in-gaza-rises-to-25-as-more-bodies-recovered#comments
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not just Israel but a lot of Hollywood involved DeNiro, Chrissy Teigen, Woody Allen, Wexner, business the Royals, Nina Zagat, Anthony Kardis, Lady Iveagh or Lady Clare Hazel, Madonna, Beyonce, Claudia Mullen, Adm. M. Mullen, David Blaine, Steven Pinker, Geraldine Laybourne, lots of name and rumors about his book and logs
Newly-Obtained Images Show Speed-Dial Labels on Alleged Sex Trafficker’s Landline Telephones, Revealing Associates Epstein Called Frequently from Private Island Bedroom...
https://x.com/JamesOKeefeIII/status/1923455075927695808
Ex-Israeli PM Calls for Uprising Over Netanyahu's New Trump-Backed Offensive in Gaza
https://trendsinthenews.substack.com/p/ex-israeli-pm-calls-for-uprisin
g
Netanyahu and his messianic coalition has the full support of the Trump administration
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