Quick! Everbody go out and start your cars,,,

POSTED BY: Hero
UPDATED: Monday, March 3, 2025 17:27
VIEWED: 12442
PAGE 1 of 1

HERO

Wednesday, February 27, 2008 9:50 PM (P)

http://www.dailytech.com/Temperature+Monitors+Report+Worldwide+Global+
Cooling/article10866.htm

This is horrible. Cleveland is buried in 10 inches of snow (ironic, cause the Democratic debate was a real snowjob). This can't wait for spring. We need action.

Call Ralph Nader. Call AlGore. We need hot air!

Turn on your cars...clearcut a forrest. Dump freon or used oil into a lake. Any lake. Just don't wait...we need pollution. For God's sake...POLLUTION NOW!

If you see a cow, feed it beans. If you see a volcano, start digging. If you see a hybrid, run it off the road and set fire to it.

Coal...we need coal. Coal-fired electric plants, coal-fired furnaces, coal-fired coal burning centers were you can burn coal in coal fed pits lined with coal. And not the clean burning coal...good dirty West By God Almost Heaven Virginia coal. And rubber, lots of used tires out there...they burn real good.

Leave your lights on. Run your AC and your furnace at the same time. Don't clean up after your dog. Ban electric cars. Ban electric grills...charcoal only (for flavor and pollution). Spoil a wetland, I don't care how, be creative.

Give money to the Republican Party. Demand McCain pick a Big Oil VP candidate. Sell carbon credits then emit the CFCs anyway then take the money and use it to invest in Amazon rainforest bookshelves...which also burn real good.

Round up an endangered species and then set them on fire. Send Michael Moore to Cuba...then burn it too. No wait...waste of good tobacco.

Hold enviromentally destructive 'save the earth' concerts featuring Bono.

Just do something, cause its too fracking cold out there...

H

KELKHIL

Wednesday, February 27, 2008 9:53 PM (P)

You are acting like 10 inches is a lot of snow.

Hmm... weird.....

Oh and Firsties!!!!!!!!!!!

Some men just wanna watch the world burn

Kelkhil
The Shirtless Forsaken

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, February 27, 2008 9:54 PM (P)

We had snow flurries this morning here in Atlanta! I've decided to mix my recyclables in w/ my regular trash.

Muuwwahhaaahhaaa!!!!

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

AVENGINGWATCHER

Thursday, February 28, 2008 3:56 AM (P)

i hope you are being tongue in cheek, because otherwise you are a moron. Global warming is a misnomer and is more aptly described as global climate change creating more severe weather, i.e. more severe hurricanes and storms ass well as more of them, and while the Earth as a whole is having a global temperature increase, the winter weather patterns are picking up more moisture from the warmer ocean water and dumping more snow because of it(snow actually becomes less frequent below a certain temperature because the air becomes drier)
Please admit now that you are either A. Joking or B. Have no idea what you are talking about.
The destruction of the entire human race just doesn't come off as a joking matter to me.

when there are no heroes where will we turn?

GORAMMAN

Thursday, February 28, 2008 4:05 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
i hope you are being tongue in cheek, because otherwise you are a moron. Global warming is a misnomer and is more aptly described as global climate change creating more severe weather, i.e. more severe hurricanes and storms ass well as more of them, and while the Earth as a whole is having a global temperature increase, the winter weather patterns are picking up more moisture from the warmer ocean water and dumping more snow because of it(snow actually becomes less frequent below a certain temperature because the air becomes drier)
Please admit now that you are either A. Joking or B. Have no idea what you are talking about.
The destruction of the entire human race just doesn't come off as a joking matter to me.

when there are no heroes where will we turn?

Just ignore Hero. He is the joke. He wanted you to post that.

AVENGINGWATCHER

Thursday, February 28, 2008 4:10 AM (P)

I'm really not upset at all, however I meet people on a daily basis who are really uninformed about global climate change. If the president of Shell Oil admits that global climate change is a problem, then I think the barriers have at last fallen, heck even Dubya has reversed his policy and says that he knew global warming was real all along, he was just testing us.

when there are no heroes where will we turn.

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 28, 2008 4:28 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
i hope you are being tongue in cheek, because otherwise you are a moron. Global warming is a misnomer and is more aptly described as global climate change creating more severe weather, i.e. more severe hurricanes and storms ass well as more of them, and while the Earth as a whole is having a global temperature increase, the winter weather patterns are picking up more moisture from the warmer ocean water and dumping more snow because of it(snow actually becomes less frequent below a certain temperature because the air becomes drier)
Please admit now that you are either A. Joking or B. Have no idea what you are talking about.
The destruction of the entire human race just doesn't come off as a joking matter to me.

Not only is global warming a joke, those who take it seriously need to lighten the hell up, or they're not long for this world. Your drama queen antics about the " destruction of the entire human race " is nothing but a source of amusement for me and will never be anything more than the punchline to a funny joke.

It's not " creating more severe weather " . That right there is your misnomer, not global warming, or what ever goofy name you want to affix to this empty bag.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

WORLDOFHIGLET

Thursday, February 28, 2008 5:00 AM (P)

ok then - all the people talking about global warming out there (in the 10 inches of snow) and all the people NOT talking about sex in here.

O wait, I think I got that a bit wrong....

You are beholden to no man
http://worldofhiglet.blogspot.com/

AVENGINGWATCHER

Thursday, February 28, 2008 5:25 AM (P)

Seriously, I really wish we could talk face to face about this, because I can talk about this until you think it is unfunny. I mean could you please explain how mass extinction and human suffering becomes funny? You're right though, I need to lighten up about the fact that polar bears are drowning in record numbers, or lakes are drying up in Africa causing massive drought and famine or wait heres a good one the record number of deaths in Paris because of a heatwave that cooked people in their homes, oh wait you want another one? How about the massive wildfires in Australia displacing families..that one is a real laugher right? Or the Alaskan permafrost melting causing villages and roads to sink and allowing blights to attack the trees...man my side is really hurting on that one. Oh and BTW look up what misnomer means, you're misusing it in your attempt to insult me. So going back to global warming or whatever I want to call it, the last major global extinction happened when volcanoes started spewing massive amounts of carbon dioxide into the air causing the planet to warm past the survivability point of many species where they were either forced to adapt or dies off, luckily this warming was gradual and took thousands of years so all that carbon was eventually reclaimed and formed the hydrocarbons we are now putting back into the air, but only now the Earth is being forced to change in only about 100 years, which is not enough time for adequate mutations to take place and allow for the evolution of species into creatures that could tolerate the warmer environment. So all that being sad if you disagree with global warming that means that dubya is more informed than you. Kisses. This should make you feel real shiny AUraptor

when there are no heroes where will we turn?

AVENGINGWATCHER

Thursday, February 28, 2008 5:28 AM (P)

I apologize for the double post, but this is directed at the one taking about sex.

Well I am sure the wifey would love some little rugrats running around, but I am desperately clinging onto my last day with disposable income. I mean c'mon I've never even gotten to drink the water in Mexico.

when there are no heroes where will we turn?

WORLDOFHIGLET

Thursday, February 28, 2008 6:31 AM (P)

Avenge:

You misunderstood my post - it was meant to defuse the situation, not make it worse, though obviously it had the opposite effect. It was a deliberate misquote from 'Our Mrs Reynolds' and not meant to mean we should talk about sex and ignore everything else.

It is an important issue and we all do our bit or at least, should.

obviously, my bad.

You are beholden to no man
http://worldofhiglet.blogspot.com/

AVENGINGWATCHER

Thursday, February 28, 2008 6:43 AM (P)

worldofhiglet
I got your humor and thought it was funny. I come off very dry most times though, sarcasm doesn't tend to transfer very well to the web. The massive post was not directed at you, nor do I really believe anyone posting in this post was completely serious, however I do not find certain things humorous, preventable death and misery being one of them. With so many uninformed people running around, I can't have the luxury of misinformation, but like I said, I understood and thought it was funny, hence my second post. Some nights I am completely serious others I am nuts, however I am always someone you can trust to take care of those in need, in other words I'm a lot like Zoe, except I'm not pretty.

Oh, I do agree with the Michael Moore being sent to Cuba, the guy is a lying bag of go se.
When there are no heroes where will we turn?

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, February 28, 2008 6:47 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
Seriously, I really wish we could talk face to face about this, because I can talk about this until you think it is unfunny. I mean could you please explain how mass extinction and human suffering becomes funny?

It’s always funny when someone preaches the end of the world if I don’t repent and agree with them.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

WORLDOFHIGLET

Thursday, February 28, 2008 6:55 AM (P)

you're not pretty?

dang........

You are beholden to no man
http://worldofhiglet.blogspot.com/

AVENGINGWATCHER

Thursday, February 28, 2008 7:11 AM (P)

Finn, you misunderstand I'm not preaching the end of the world, the world will continue regardless of how hot the Earth gets, it will just be without humans. You are full well encouraged to disagree with me, however there is little evidence to support that climate change is not happening, unless you completely ignore current signs. Seriously please debate me on this issue, I would love to be proven wrong, however if I do happen to be right and we do nothing, well...we all die, if I am wrong, and we move to clean power and stop polluting then we have a cleaner environment, less health problems, lower rate of birth defects associated with mercury released from "clean coal" plants, lower electric costs, etc...I am sure you don't need me to go on. So because I believe something based upon years of researching the issue and the data related to it, I am stating the the evidence fully supports the global temperature rising.

Higlet, naw I've been shot at too much to be pretty, I'm just a gorram mudder who got himself all booked up, as an aside, I've actually debated this subject for 8 hours straight before, so I am very well versed in it and REALLY enjoy a good intellectual debate, however I haven't personally found anyone who truly disagrees that the climate hasn't changed.

when there are no heroes where will we turn?

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, February 28, 2008 7:27 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
Fin, you misunderstand I'm not preaching the end of the world, the world will continue regardless of how hot the Earth gets, it will just be without humans. You are full well encouraged to disagree with me, however there is little evidence to support that climate change is not happening, unless you completely ignore current signs. Seriously please debate me on this issue, I would love to be proven wrong, however if I do happen to be right and we do nothing, well...we all die, if I am wrong, and we move to clean power and stop polluting then we have a cleaner environment, less health problems, lower rate of birth defects associated with mercury released from "clean coal" plants, lower electric costs, etc...I am sure you don't need me to go on.

The doomsday advocates always seem to insist upon applying the precautionary principle as a strict zealous religious practice. You say, and probably completely believe, that if we don’t do it your way, we’ll all die. But that sounds to me like the same crap people have been pushing for 2000 years, and the world hasn’t ended yet.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

WORLDOFHIGLET

Thursday, February 28, 2008 7:37 AM (P)

"did it just get hot in here....?"

You are beholden to no man
http://worldofhiglet.blogspot.com/

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, February 28, 2008 7:55 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by worldofhiglet:
"did it just get hot in here....?"

You are beholden to no man
http://worldofhiglet.blogspot.com/

It's global warming.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

JONGSSTRAW

Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:37 PM (P)

"Global Warming" is THE biggest lie since "Arbeit Macht Frei"....These tunnel-visioned zealots have it covered no matter what. It's 40 degrees in Ft. Lauderdale today..."warming", NOT. But "they" will have a "reason" for that...by Saturday it will be 80 degrees, and "they" will have a reason for that. The Midwest & Northeast have had record cold & near-record snowfall this year, but "they" will have a reason for that. Here's MY reason...THAT'S WHAT THE PLANET EARTH DOES....IT GOES HOT & IT GOES COLD....and "your" absurd whinings and dire predictions of doom are truly getting old, although still distractingly amusing....sort of like watching Sanjaya sing on Idol last year...you know it's bullshit, but ya still pay attention a little for the pure absurdity of it.

HERO

Thursday, February 28, 2008 1:58 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
Please admit now that you are either A. Joking or B. Have no idea what you are talking about.
The destruction of the entire human race just doesn't come off as a joking matter to me.

Funny, most global warming folks have the same dilema.

Why can't I be both joking and ignorant...option C.

For the record I refuse to admit I'm joking. Refuse. And I refuse to admit the sky is blue. Because I was not joking. I was entirely serious about stopping global cooling. Sure, 10 inches is not the most snow ever...but maybe its just the start of a centuries long ice age that will make September home games at Cleveland Browns Stadium somewhat less enjoyable (although with reasonable ticket prices and a supply of stadium mustard...I'd still go).

No jokes here. I hate rainforrests, Michael Moore, and endangered species. And coke always tasked better from a 12oz glass bottle. I miss them and now you can only get them at Christmas as a novelty. That just aint right.

Cut down a tree on Arbor Day. Dump pesticides in the river for Earth Day. And for Easter...

Look, some studies say global warming, some say global cooling, most say global pretty much the same as last year. So yes, I laugh at global warming 'we're all gonna die' crap. And I laugh at global cooling 'we're all going to die' crap. And I laugh at the prospect of mass extinction and global disaster.

Fellas carrying sign saying 'the end is near' have been around since caveman first drew on walls and got their own sitcom. All they ask is that you listen to their 'proof' and have a sip of cool aid...just one sip...cause the end is closer then you think. We'll miss you when your gone, not too much though.

H

JONGSSTRAW

Thursday, February 28, 2008 2:26 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
So yes, I laugh at global warming 'we're all gonna die' crap. And I laugh at global cooling 'we're all going to die' crap. And I laugh at the prospect of mass extinction and global disaster.

Fellas carrying sign saying 'the end is near' have been around since caveman first drew on walls

Ah...the prophets of doom...gotta love 'em. Your post reminds me of the Asimov short story "Nightfall." Know that one?....A planet has multiple suns that all rise and set at different times, so there is never darkness of a night sky, only perpetual dayalight. But there is a prophecy of pending doom, the end of the world. And there are religious cults based on this prophecy...one of their "rituals" is to "make blind" their followers by sticking metal spikes into their eyes, leaving their followers to go through life being blind ( as a precaution against witnessing the "inevitable" impending "doom"). Life goes on for thousands of years like this ...until one day, one fateful day when the cosmic alignment of the multiple stars puts their orbits in a such a way that they all set below the horizon...revealing the night sky...the darkness of the night sky, that is until the "maddenning" brilliance of 30,000 suns from their surrounding globular cluster overwhelms the sanity of all men gazing upon it. The point here is why poke your eyes out from fear of the end of the world...either it won't really be so terrible, or you'll be dead anyhow.

AVENGINGWATCHER

Thursday, February 28, 2008 5:15 PM (P)

Man, for a bunch of people who purport to be independents you guys sure follow a conservative viewpoint. You guys have not shown me one actual fact to repudiate my arguments. Yes the planet is cyclical, so isn't the sun for that matter, however the rate of change is not as sudden as we have seen. The little ice age was caused by 1 volcano spewing gases into the air, we have had a sharp rise in ocean temperatures, that can be directly correlated with the increase in greenhouse gas emissions put into our atmo, hero the last major swing you are talking about in the planets history caused a major planet-wide culling of species and was caused by massive volcanic eruptions releasing tons of gas into the air, i.e. the same stuff we are now burning...ugh I hate having to repeat the same things I have previously said...seriously if you have something that can actually disprove the global warming argument by all means otherwise it's like Jayne trying to argue with the doctor, he simply just doesn't get it.

Here's a question for you, why are you guys fighting so hard against people who desire to keep the planet clean and habitable for humans? Is sustainability so bad?

when there are no heroes where will we turn?

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 28, 2008 7:25 PM (P)

avenging - You're giving into hysteria. The Polar Bears will be fine. The ice in the Arctic is back, and thicker than it's been in yrs. What? Famine in Africa ? Shudder ! Never known that to happen there- ever! Paris heat wave deaths? You mean when most the hospitals were closed because everyone was away on 'Holiday' a few yrs ago ? That was a disaster caused more by cultural and Gov't inequities, not 'global warming' . Wildfires? Hey, that's nature. Happened here in the U.S. as well. Likely for the same reasons, poor land management which doesn't allow for the clear cutting of under brush. Oooops!

Here's a news flash - The climate is always in flux. It gets colder, it gets warmer. That's been happening to this planet's weather for a few billion yrs. Fact is ,it's RARE where things 'settle down' so there are no wild fires, no floods, no seasons which are too cold or too hot. Rare it is that a strong storm doesn't pop up from time to time. Katrina and the hurricanes of '05 ? Wasn't that supppose to be the norm for the future ? But why have the last 2 yrs been so damn quiet ? We're suppose to have worse and worse storms....well ?

Calm down, chicken little. The sky ain't falling.

p.s.- and as for human suffering ? Point to a time when humans didn't suffer? It's called survival. I'd bet we suffer less today, as a species, than we did during our first 100,000 yrs.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

KWICKO

Thursday, February 28, 2008 8:11 PM (P)

Quote:
...that will make September home games at Cleveland Browns Stadium somewhat less enjoyable...

I wasn't aware that a Browns game - or life in Ohio, for that matter - really COULD be less enjoyable...

So, all you who say that those who believe global warming is an actual, real phenomenon, and that man and civilization have had SOME impact on same - you call us crazy, you say we're preaching the end of the world...

And then you go and say WHAT about terrorism? You try to convince us that if we don't vote for the Nazi party - er, I mean the REPUBLIKKKAN party - then we're opening the gates to let terrorists into the country, and our way of life will be destroyed.

Reminds me of a little note I saw:

"Dear Kettle,

You're black.

Signed,

The Pot"

Mike

"Me want Kill-Dozer!!"

KWICKO

Thursday, February 28, 2008 8:16 PM (P)

Quote:
Calm down, chicken little. The sky ain't falling.

p.s.- and as for human suffering ? Point to a time when humans didn't suffer? It's called survival. I'd bet we suffer less today, as a species, than we did during our first 100,000 yrs.

Can I quote you on that next time you get on your soapbox about "Islamo-Fascists" (as opposed to YOUR breed of Christo-fascists)? Next time you start crying, whinging, and bitching about terrorists and how they're out to kill us all because they hate our freedoms and are all evildoers, can I just quote your own words back to you?

The sky ain't falling, you're always going to suffer, it's always something, and you're safer than you think.

Why don't you dipshits on the right declare a war on weather? It kills far more people in this country than terrorists do!

Mike

"Me want Kill-Dozer!!"

HERO

Thursday, February 28, 2008 8:35 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I wasn't aware that a Browns game - or life in Ohio, for that matter - really COULD be less enjoyable...

Clearly you have never tasted Stadium Mustard:

http://www.stadiummustard.com/

H

CHRISISALL

Thursday, February 28, 2008 8:44 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The ice in the Arctic is back, and thicker than it's been in yrs.

You of course have evidence of this...maybe an Inuit testimony? Maybe you've been there?
What?
You 'heard it somewhere'?
Makes that about as credible as Saddam's active WMD.

Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Thursday, February 28, 2008 8:45 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Why don't you dipshits on the right declare a war on weather? It kills far more people in this country than terrorists do!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!isall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, February 28, 2008 9:11 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Why don't you dipshits on the right declare a war on weather? It kills far more people in this country than terrorists do!

Maybe because you dipshits on the Left have already done that.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, February 28, 2008 9:13 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
Here's a question for you, why are you guys fighting so hard against people who desire to keep the planet clean and habitable for humans? Is sustainability so bad?

I’m not against people who desire a clean and habitable planet for humans. I’m against apocalyptic hysteria to promote an agenda.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, February 28, 2008 9:37 PM (P)

I’m not against people who desire a clean and habitable planet for humans. I’m against people who call it apocalyptic hysteria to promote a corporate agenda.

Seems we could find some ground in the middle, were we to try.

-F

AVENGINGWATCHER

Thursday, February 28, 2008 9:42 PM (P)

Auraptor, you clearly have done ZERO research into the topic. The Polar ice sheets are in serious decline as are most bodies of glacial ice, wildfires have become far more frequent in both California and Australia(where I had actually stated). In fact you really brought no evidence to the table. Here I'll give you a site with pretty pictures so you can see
Specifically the one with the ESA satellite imagery

Oh and about those polar bears
http://www.nature.com/news/2007/071123/full/news.2007.282.html

Finn but what if you are wrong, and could you explain the agenda. I ams sure that the middle class scientists who spend months a year in the polar regions studying ice would love to know where the monetary gain is. In fact the only ones who have anything to gain by global warming is those who advocate against it. Seriously if you believed the way I do wouldn't you be a bit upset that other people were saying that their right to an SUV is more important than your right to bring your children and grandchildren into a stable environment?

When there are no heroes where will we turn?

CHRISISALL

Thursday, February 28, 2008 9:45 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’m not against people who desire a clean and habitable planet for humans. I’m against apocalyptic hysteria to promote an agenda.

See, I'm tired of this black & white, all-or-nothing mentality the media plays up on.
Like either there's global warming, or there isn't. Either it's man-made, or it isn't.
Either it will kill us all, or we're all totally safe.

Chrisisall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:19 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
Finn but what if you are wrong,

What if I’m wrong about what? The end of the world? As I said, it hasn’t ended anytime in the last 2000 years of people claiming it’s going to end. I’m not that feeble-minded to be terrified into believing in your point of view, because you say we’re all going to die if I don’t. Find a more intelligent perspective, and I’ll probably be more receptive to it.

And all those scientists in the North Pole know exactly where the money is, they wouldn’t be there if they didn’t.

Quote:
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
Seriously if you believed the way I do wouldn't you be a bit upset that other people were saying that their right to an SUV is more important than your right to bring your children and grandchildren into a stable environment?

Well I think you need to understand you live in a world with varying points of view. You’re welcome to be upset that people don’t do things the way you want them to, but if your argument is the world will end if they don’t, I don’t think you’ll win many people over to doing things your way.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:22 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
See, I'm tired of this black & white, all-or-nothing mentality the media plays up on.
Like either there's global warming, or there isn't. Either it's man-made, or it isn't.
Either it will kill us all, or we're all totally safe.

Welcome to the politics of inconclusive evidence. People want it to be black and white. They want it to be simple, but it’s not.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

KWICKO

Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:24 PM (P)

Quote:
I’m against apocalyptic hysteria to promote an agenda.

You know... like declaring war on terror, and cringing in obsolete fallout shelters because "the smoking gun might be a mushroom cloud". Nah, you guys would NEVER stoop to apocalyptic hysteria to promote an agenda... [COUGH]WARRANTLESSWIRETAPPING[COUGH]

M

"Me want Kill-Dozer!!"

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:29 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
I’m against apocalyptic hysteria to promote an agenda.

You know... like declaring war on terror, and cringing in obsolete fallout shelters because "the smoking gun might be a mushroom cloud". Nah, you guys would NEVER stoop to apocalyptic hysteria to promote an agenda... [COUGH]WARRANTLESSWIRETAPPING[COUGH]

The error bars are a lot smaller on the question of whether the World Trade Center is still standing.

Part of the reason why I think some people are so desperate to buy anything they hear in the doomsday global warming thing is a desire for a obstacle they don’t really believe is real. People are a lot happier fighting the demons that can’t be proven to exist, then those that have been proven to kill.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

KWICKO

Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:29 PM (P)

Quote:
I’m not that feeble-minded to be terrified into believing in your point of view, because you say we’re all going to die if I don’t. Find a more intelligent perspective, and I’ll probably be more receptive to it.

You've summed up my feelings on the Bush Administration, the "moral majority", and the whole make-war-not-love crowd very succinctly.

Careful, though - you'll insult Aurupture's "great hero".

M

"Me want Kill-Dozer!!"

CHRISISALL

Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:35 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Part of the reason why I think some people are so desperate to buy anything they hear in the doomsday global warming thing is a desire for a obstacle they don’t really believe is real.

Like Saddam's WMD?

Sorry, I had a gun, and the fish in that barrel was goin' nowhere...

Bad Chrisisall

KIRKULES

Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:44 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

and cringing in obsolete fallout shelters

I've wanted my own personal fallout shelter since I read Heinlein's "Farnham's Freehold" when I was a kid. Only a Commie would try and convince me that I don't need one. You're not a Commie, are you?

AVENGINGWATCHER

Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:50 PM (P)

Finn the war in Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11 Afghanistan did. There were no Al-Qaeda in Iraq, Saddam wouldn't allow it because it was a threat to his rule. Also there were no WMD's the UN inspectors said so as well as our own intelligence, European intelligence...etc. There was no justification for going to war, and I have said that since before we went. I am no an alarmist, I'm a realist. I can look out my windows and see Venus and then go hmmm... I wonder how Venus got to have so much pressure, I'll check the NASA website, oh greenhouse gasses created an environment that trapped hot air, man sounds like congress har har, Oh wait those gasses are the same we are pumping into our atmosphere...hmmm maybe we should stop, along with things like albedo, temperature readings, pictures of the ice sheets from the 70's and now, gaseous data observed from ice core readings comparative to today's atmospheric readings and some more big words I am sure you don't want to hear about because hey you're not an alarmist because you go with your gut and it's never happened before so it could never happen now. I guess that's why none of your points can be backed up to vetted and peer reviewed documentation or papers. The only actual debate about global warming in the scientific community of those people who study it for a living is whether or not we have passed the threshold or not and the data coming out from climate models isn't all that encouraging, or are those computers having a bias as well?

Here is that link I meant to send earlier
http://jinchi.blogspot.com/search/label/climate%20change
Also do you realize that the premise of firefly is based upon the human race outstripping the planet of it's resources and making it uninhabitable. "The ETW could no longer support us, we were so many..." eeks maybe Joss is an alarmist, you should send him some hate mail.

When there are no heroes where will we turn?

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:56 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
or are those computers haiving a bias as well?

Quite frequently, as a matter of fact. The accuracy of GCM predictions are a major source of debate in the climate change science.

It occurs to me that someone even partially familiar with real climate science wouldn’t even propose the issue of whether there is bias in the computers models. There certainly is.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

KWICKO

Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:08 PM (P)

But AvengingWatcher, he DOES have "proof" - the sand that he's got his head buried in is completely free of any signs of melting ice packs; ergo, the ice CAN NOT be melting.

What you have to realize when dealing with these types, is that they are (a) utterly delusional, believing in fairy tales and falderol, and (b) actually BELIEVE that the world is 6000 years old.

The other proof that global warming isn't real? Republicans haven't yet found a way to make it profitable for their cronies. Dig for the green in being green, and they'll be on board.

M

"Me want Kill-Dozer!!"

KIRKULES

Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:09 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
I guess that's why none of your points can be backed up to vetted and peer reviewed documentation or papers.

I can only assume your facts are peer reviewed by the 99% of scientists you mentioned earlier. Peer review is a joke when the reviewers agree with you on everything from politics to global warming.

Quote:

The only actual debate about global warming in the scientific community of those people who study it for a living is whether or not we have passed the threshold or not and the data coming out from climate models isn't all that encouraging, or are those computers having a bias as well?

How many variables do these models take into account. Bet it's not even a minute fraction of those in nature.

Seems like those that "study it for a living" might just be perpetuating their own jobs like good bureaucrats do.

KWICKO

Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:18 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Peer review is a joke when the reviewers agree with you on everything...

Can I hold you to that, when you start quoting pro-war Bushies talking about how great the war is going?

Quote:
Seems like those that "study it for a living" might just be perpetuating their own jobs like good beaurocrates do.

Like the generals are doing in Iraq - keeping it going forever so they have kewl new toys to play with, right?

M

"Me want Kill-Dozer!!"

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:24 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Seems like those that "study it for a living" might just be perpetuating their own jobs like good beaurocrates do.

Part of the problem with the GCMs is that we don’t know how the climate works. It’s the whole garbage-in-garbage-out principle. People who aren’t familiar with climate science will often assume that because these prediction are being made by a computer that they must be right, but in fact, there is little reason to believe that, and no way to know it. Computer models agree with some parts of the climate, but not with others, and often we’ve found that the reason why they agree with some parts is because they have, effectively, been programmed to agree with certain things. Not intentionally, generally, but in the absence of a real understanding of the physics and chemistry behind the climate, we often end up using empirical databases, lookup tables and other types of data that inadvertently bias the results and a model that is created to predict a certain result, will generally predict that result regardless of actual physical mechanism behind it.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:44 PM (P)

Damn, did someone clone me while I wasn't lookin ?

Kwicko, yer startin to scare me,I might have to knock you off due to territorial issues cause you're fleecin MY herd here....

And doin a rather bang-up job of it too.
*grumble*

-F

WORLDOFHIGLET

Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:54 PM (P)

SO is there any common ground here? Can we agree that using finite resources indiscriminately is a bad thing? Can we agree that looking at REAL alternatives for power is a good thing?

Anyone?

You are beholden to no man
http://worldofhiglet.blogspot.com/

KIRKULES

Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:57 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Seems like those that "study it for a living" might just be perpetuating their own jobs like good bureaucrat's do.
Part of the problem with the GCMs is that we don’t know how the climate works. It’s the whole garbage-in-garbage-out principle. People who aren’t familiar with climate science will often assume that because these prediction are being made by a computer that they must be right, but in fact, there is little reason to believe that, and no way to know it. Computer models agree with some parts of the climate, but not with others, and often we’ve found that the reason why they agree with some parts is because they have, effectively, been programmed to agree with certain things. Not intentionally, generally, but in the absence of a real understanding of the physics and chemistry behind the climate, we often end up using empirical databases, lookup tables and other types of data that inadvertently bias the results and a model that is created to predict a certain result, will generally predict that result regardless of actual physical mechanism behind it.

While I'm not convinced that "global warming" is man made, I do believe it is occurring. The data I have seen in documentaries(pro and con)and a few scientific papers I have seen does seem to show this. It does seem ridiculous to try and say that from accurate temperature data for a few hundred years you can tell us about things that occur in geologic time scales. The temperature rise wouldn't bother me if it wasn't for the fact that solar cycles would seem to indicate we should be cooling instead of warming. I have seen no evidence to lead me to believe that the man made component is significant. The most convincing evidence that it is not man made is the study of gases found in ice core samples from the Arctic. Those that say this is decided science either have a vested interest in it being true or their not real scientists.

ANTIMASON

Friday, February 29, 2008 12:25 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by worldofhiglet:
SO is there any common ground here? Can we agree that using finite resources indiscriminately is a bad thing?

well.. do we know that oil is finite? there is some good debate going on about whether that assertion is even true or not. we dont even know what causes oil exactly.. so there is still some speculation regarding its availability. i am however of the opinion that the "peak oil theory" is globalist propaganda(towards centralized planning), but thats just my gut...

Quote:
Can we agree that looking at REAL alternatives for power is a good thing?

Anyone?

oh i dont think anyone would disagree with seeking alternative energy sources, especially if they operate more cleanly. what is in dispute is at what cost? the market should, and will decide, when alternative energies are viable, and it wont happen any sooner. that is, unless the government gets envolved, and artificially manipulates and micromanages our lives to try and force the progress.

that seems to be what most of the MM GW extremists advocate: direct regulation of our everyday lives and choices. its communist, its collectivist, its fascist, but more importantly its irrelevant! if you want to live freely, you will wait for capitalism and the free market to solve the problem. opposite that is a slippery slope to tyranny, this much should be obvious

AVENGINGWATCHER

Friday, February 29, 2008 1:06 AM (P)

Finn, you are absolutely right, the scientists plug in data based upon what we know and currently understand and then using computer models that go back to prehistory and there are thousands upon thousands of these that run. I am well aware of this, however the laws of probability are what the computer truly bases its claims upon and the models have been very accurate.

On the oil subject, oil is indeed a finite resource, it is created from the decaying plant and animal matter that has been put under pressure to create strings of hydrocarbons, this isn't debated by anyone with any scientific background. So, yes oil is a finite resource, especially since we have to keep finding it. With China's explosive growth and so many people desiring the western style of luxury it has greatly increased the demand for oil and coal in China which has had disastrous effects on both health and environment, much of China is being transformed into desert as a result of their lack of environmental policies.

On renewable fuel, GM had a working electric vehicle that got 300 miles to the charge, which is more than sufficient for most people. The probably best solution would be a hard hybrid that worked on electricity most of the time, but used a plant based fuel for long term hauls and such. Currently the Prius allows you to do this with a simple modification, and there are kits that can be used to convert any diesel vehicle to a vegetable oil fueled vehicle, essentially people with this system need a little diesel to start the car and warm the oil and they can get free oil from restaurants that usually have to pay a disposal fee to get rid of their used cooking grease.

As for the middle ground, conservatives will always disagree with any environmental policy because they don't think they should have to change their lifestyle so others can live. There was even a study that showed people who drive SUV's are selfish and insecure.

Link to that here
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread313152/pg1

Mason, I completely disagree with government interfering in most cases, but seriously when the organizations that are too big for people to fight alone are in play, that is where the government needs to speak in collective protection of people. I think they meddle far too much into the everyday affairs of most people and personally think that welfare needs a major overhaul and needs to be repaired. I agree think that veterans should have health care paid for forever and that all people should willingly want to serve their country for at least two years. I don't want to take your guns away, though it is not a guarantee of the constitution (the second line reads "in a well regulated militia") I think that basic health care should be provided by all and health insurance would cover elective or more costly health care such as cancers and other preventable or non-universal diseases. So yes I am definitely liberal on a majority of things, but really who gives anyone the right to destroy someone else's right to a clean planet? I do what I can to treat the planet right and it is less costly than if I didn't so either way, just being environmentally sound hurts no one and actually helps in most cases.

When there are no heroes where will we turn?

KIRKULES

Friday, February 29, 2008 1:28 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:

Seems like those that "study it for a living" might just be perpetuating their own jobs like good beaurocrates do.

Like the generals are doing in Iraq - keeping it going forever so they have kewl new toys to play with, right?

M

"Me want Kill-Dozer!!"

They probably love Kill-Dozers too.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, February 29, 2008 4:00 AM (P)

Do I think we are irresponsible in our use of resources? Yes

Do I buy for a second in global warming? Not a chance.

Like anything else, I give it all 50/50

I do think it's great that we're working so hard to find alternative sources for energy, but that has nothing to do with the tree hugger's efforts. It's simply fiscal responsibility, and it's about damn time. I for one don't want to be sucking on the Middle East's tits 10 years from now, do you?

Isn't it amazing how when gas prices rise over $3.00 a gallon that we miraculously make all of these advances in alternate energy, as if by magic?

Here's hoping that gas hit's $5.00 by next year, and I'm driving a '78 Ford LTD that gets 10 MPG.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

ANTIMASON

Friday, February 29, 2008 4:19 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

Isn't it amazing how when gas prices rise over $3.00 a gallon that we miraculously make all of these advances in alternate energy, as if by magic?

Here's hoping that gas hit's $5.00 by next year, and I'm driving a '78 Ford LTD that gets 10 MPG.

i find it interesting that the price of oil, relative to gold, has remained steady, while almost doubling under the dollar. i think its a sign that the problem is our currency, which is 50 percent of every transaction. at this rate, i worry that our innovative capabilities will stagnate, along with the economy, before any viable alternatives take off

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, February 29, 2008 4:25 AM (P)

That is possible AM.....

I laugh, only half-heartedly, about the fact that I'm up 87% on my Goldcorp investment from last May. My big joke is that the real value of the money I invested in Goldcorp has stayed the same over the last 8-9 months while the value of the rest of my money has decreased by 87% in that much time.

Here's hoping I get that 30% cost of living raise this April.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

AURAPTOR

Friday, February 29, 2008 4:36 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
Auraptor, you clearly have done ZERO research into the topic. The Polar ice sheets are in serious decline as are most bodies of glacial ice, wildfires have become far more frequent in both California and Australia(where I had actually stated). In fact you really brought no evidence to the table. Here I'll give you a site with pretty pictures so you can see
Specifically the one with the ESA satellite imagery

Oh and about those polar bears
http://www.nature.com/news/2007/071123/full/news.2007.282.html

Too bad your 'link' is a pay only site. Oh well. I've done quite a bit of research, and found many studies contradict each other, or claim little change in the polar bear population.

The winter this year has been especially cold. Tell me the ice hasn't come back? It has, and even thicker than it was before.

There's no reason to fret.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

AVENGINGWATCHER

Friday, February 29, 2008 4:48 AM (P)

Sorry about that raptor, having a slow internet so I just grabbed the first and saw it pop p with info, however a quick Google search or perusal of a National Geographic could bring up the info. The satellite imagery doesn't lie though. Nor do the early passages of ships through the northwest and northeast passages.

When there are no heroes where will we turn?

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Friday, February 29, 2008 6:43 AM (P)

Want to stop global warming? Get a Earth sun sheild. That Sun swings the surface temp by 60 degrees F and back again just in the period of a day. We gotta get that thing under control, and we need to stop decaying our orbit around the Sun, or we'll get hotter.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, February 29, 2008 9:08 AM (P)

I agree. We need to stage an immediate pre-emptive strike against the sun. We need to push it back now because it's decaying orbit around the Earth is getting dangerously hot.

(I say as I smoke in sub zero conditions at night for the last month in this, the coldest winter of my lifetime)

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, February 29, 2008 3:12 PM (P)

Quote:
I'm driving a '78 Ford LTD

I must say kid, ya got style... so monstrous, so ugly, it just has a style all it's own in pure visual offensiveness, doesn't it ?

My dispatcher drives a 1973 Plymouth Gran Fury, what a freakin monstrosity that thing is, and having borrowed it twice, those slab sided monoliths take a heck of a lot more skill to drive than a modern car, that's for sure.

My dear ole gramma had a hopped up 1966 Impala she drove till her doc forbade it, and I remember the interior quite well from when we used to go duckpin bowling together... it had a really unique look and style.

Hee hee hee, one time some local kiddies made the mistake of revving at Granny while we were at a light, in a cherried up Nova, guess they thought they were something...

Granny just glanced over sideways, ker-clunked it into gear, and dropped the hammer on the beefy 427 under that black glossy hood, leaving the poor twits at the line in a cloud of smoke, they weren't gonna catch up, and they didn't even try - wasn't nothin never wrong with her reflexes, was her legs that ended her driving days, cause she took up video games after that, and bowed to NO master at Atari 2600's COMBAT, rather embarassing to be hammered at that by your granny, it is.

Hell of a lady, I miss her though, the world is just a little less interesting without her in it, she had a tongue and wit to go with those reflexes too, never doubt it.

-Frem

CHRISISALL

Friday, February 29, 2008 3:18 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

even thicker

Yes AU, this is very apt indeed.
Not the ice though, I mean....

Chrisisall

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, February 29, 2008 3:41 PM (P)

*Declares Barrel-Fish an Endangered Species and confiscates Chrisisall's shotgun*

CHRISISALL

Friday, February 29, 2008 3:51 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
*Declares Barrel-Fish an Endangered Species and confiscates Chrisisall's shotgun*

No stairway; access denied....

KWICKO

Friday, February 29, 2008 6:03 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
*Declares Barrel-Fish an Endangered Species and confiscates Chrisisall's shotgun*

Dang... barrel-fish is good eatin', too. Tastes like chicken-hawk. ;)

M

"Me want Kill-Dozer!!"

KWICKO

Friday, February 29, 2008 6:04 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:

Seems like those that "study it for a living" might just be perpetuating their own jobs like good beaurocrates do.

Like the generals are doing in Iraq - keeping it going forever so they have kewl new toys to play with, right?

M

"Me want Kill-Dozer!!"

They probably love Kill-Dozers too.

Hey, man - EVERYBODY loves KillDozers. How can ya NOT? They're just so cuddly - right up until they flatten you.

M

"Me want Kill-Dozer!!"

RAZZA

Friday, February 29, 2008 6:11 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

even thicker
Yes AU, this is very apt indeed.
Not the ice though, I mean....

Chrisisall

I wouldn't take Auraptors word for it either, but I suspect the the senior forecaster with the Canadian Ice Service in Ottawa knows what he's talking about:

Quote:
...Asked about the Arctic ice cover, Gilles Langis, a senior forecaster with the Canadian Ice Service in Ottawa, told the Post the Arctic winter had been so severe, the ice has not only recovered but was actually 10 to 20 cm thicker in many places than the same time last year...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/02/26/eaic
e126.xml

-----------------
Blogs Away! ---> www.fblblog.com

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

AVENGINGWATCHER

Friday, February 29, 2008 6:19 PM (P)

Okay guys I gotta say that the personal attacks probably are a bit much for this. I mean I am really glad I hijacked this post into a completely inane conversation, but seriously let's be somewhat civilized.

JewelStaiteFan, actually the mirror idea has been proposed as a possible solution, however the raw materials needed to deflect enough sun would be enormous and it would be far more costly then just changing our habits now. Also the planets are actually slowly expanding outwards not inwards, a perfect example of this being the moon which gets incrementally further away from us. It is the spinning motion that causes this effect.

When there are no heroes where will we turn?

CHRISISALL

Friday, February 29, 2008 6:34 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Razza:
...Asked about the Arctic ice cover, Gilles Langis, a senior forecaster with the Canadian Ice Service in Ottawa, told the Post the Arctic winter had been so severe, the ice has not only recovered but was actually 10 to 20 cm thicker in many places than the same time last year...

AND from the same article:

Quote:
Other figures from the NCDC, however, show that during January 2008, Europe, northern Asia and most of Australia experienced above average temperatures. According to the Bureau of Meteorology (BoM), temperatures were 3-4°C (5-7°F) above average across large areas of Western and Central Australia and as a whole, the country had its warmest January on record.

Sea surface temperatures were also warmer than average in the Atlantic, Indian, and the northwestern Pacific oceans.

Here, educate yourselves:
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/01/03/arctic.ice/index.html

Quote:
But -- like the Arctic ice itself -- military secrecy seems to be thawing. About a year ago, Rothrock convinced Navy brass that measurements taken in the 1950s could be helpful in figuring out whether the data from the '90s was statistically significant. Armed with a pile of new numbers, Rothrock guessed that they might show that the polar cap had shrunk perhaps 18-20 inches over the past half century.

He was wrong. The actual shrinkage left him astonished.

On average, the University of Washington team found that ice had thinned by four feet (1.3 meters) -- a 40 percent decrease since 1953. The "trend" of the 1990s seemed to be an indisputable fact.

It ain't as simple as one season's temps, folks.
A looming cold spell is all part of Global Warming (or Global Climate Change, as we should say...).

Kneel before Chrisisall

ANTIMASON

Friday, February 29, 2008 6:54 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:

As for the middle ground, conservatives will always disagree with any environmental policy because they don't think they should have to change their lifestyle so others can live.

well in principle, everyone should have the freedom and right to live as they see fit, whether it be wasteful or not. if this is an issue of conservation, then to remain free we have to accept that only the individual can change his/her behavior. certainly every 'right' necessitates equal responsibility, to be good stewards and so on.. well these are moral and ethical issues, are they not? these kind of changes can only take place inwardly and self consciously.. clearly not the role of an external body or government. think of this in a personal context; people do not change well forcefully

also, is CO2 a pollutant, despite its role in natural cycles? go a step beyond manufacturing and personal emmissions, why not make the case that a 'culling' of the population is necessary for survival? i only bring this up as an extreme, because ive heard this scenario before,

Quote:
There was even a study that showed people who drive SUV's are selfish and insecure.

come on, thats a stereotype.. besides merely pointing that out comes off very superficially

Quote:
Mason, I completely disagree with government interfering in most cases, but seriously when the organizations that are too big for people to fight alone are in play, that is where the government needs to speak in collective protection of people.

mostly, the government/corporate relationships and subsidies are what cause these problems, especially with healthcare. the problem is too much government interference in the market. your acknowledging that the 'progressive' solution is to expand government, and give it MORE control. itll only make it worse! the corporations are less the enemy, we can deny their services, and compete if we so choose... but the government gets everybody

Quote:
So yes I am definitely liberal on a majority of things, but really who gives anyone the right to destroy someone else's right to a clean planet? I do what I can to treat the planet right and it is less costly than if I didn't so either way, just being environmentally sound hurts no one and actually helps in most cases.

youre right in that the government should protect property rights; maybe we should debate, and settle whether emitting excessive CO2 is a crime first, before we try and determine the constitutions stance on the issue. i suspect there is a lot of property rights violating going on, that some simple enforcement of the law might correct. i think we should consider these options, before taking on the task of global social engineering

AVENGINGWATCHER

Friday, February 29, 2008 7:45 PM (P)

Anti,
I really have come to respect your usually very thought provoking rebuttals. It's nice to hear we can have reasonable debates across the aisle. The study I was referring to was actually done by the auto industry as a marketing tool to see how best to sell. These studies are statistically very scary in how accurate they are over a broad spectrum of people (I do advertising in my job) and much of marketing is done in this way because stereotyping people is very accurate, stereotyping a person is where it becomes ethically wrong.

Well the problem with saying people have the right to live as they want is that if someone else is pollutes the environment, they don't give you the right to your freedom. I completely agree with freedom so long as it does not affect another persons freedom, i.e. I don't eat meat and would like for everyone to stop, but it is legal and while I would like for people to stop it does not infringe upon my freedoms to not eat them or protect them if they are on my property, just as you owning a gun and shooting it on your own property is none of my business. However if you start taking potshots at the creatures on my property expressly knowing that it is against my wishes then you affect my personal freedom to live as I wish to. If it were a simple matter of you stay over there and I'll stay over here I would agree, but environmental issues affect a global population, therefore protecting everyone's right to live as they choose becomes and issue of limiting an individuals right to affect another persons, unless of course you resort to violence which I'd really rather not have to do.

As for the government, I think it should be paired down to health care, defense, education (giving people access to it not controlling what is taught with the exception that religion could only be taught in public schools as an elective, i.e. not forced) The courts would handle rights and new federal laws would be directly put forth by the citizens. with a 3/5 majority vote needed to pass.
I really have got a whole other system planned which would be far less complicated and hopefully address all the issues.

As far as government interference, I never hear enough complaints about the give aways to major corporations and too many about giving people health care. A very simple solution would be to give basic, preventative and emergency health care to all citizens, with elective and non-universal i.e. knee surgeries, broken bones would be covered by the insurance company for a very nominal fee, that way if you have an illness you are covered, or if you break a bone you can get it taken care of but it would cost money, but would not include the doctor's fees. etc...this really gets lengthy but is far less complicated than the current medical situation.

The major problem with the correction of violations is that under the Bush administration he has given free pass to corporations to pollute , abuse workers and ignore safety standards(especially in the mining industry) and otherwise run roughshod over the little guy. I completely think that the corporate government needs to be taken back and given to the people and I think the majority of us could hammer out our own compromise that everyone could work with. Personally I think the major problem is that car companies have refused and hidden their ability to make electric/hybrid vehicles that would provide the same off-roading,rebel rousing fun that most people are afraid of losing. I am not against SUV's for anything other than safety and emissions reasons.

Defining excessive emissions is kind of pointless, we really just need to get away from hydro-carbons as a fuel source, it's obviously possible since car manufacturers are now miraculously producing the vehicles they said they couldn't now that it is profitable, but most people can't afford the better vehicles. It's really just a big racket, but we all knew that.

When there are no heroes where will we turn?

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, February 29, 2008 8:44 PM (P)

Avenging, perhaps you should consider membership in the IWW.

Sounds like you'd be on-board with most of their goals, to be honest.

http://www.iww.org

KIRKULES

Friday, February 29, 2008 10:24 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
car manufacturers are now miraculously producing the vehicles they said they couldn't now that it is profitable, but most people can't afford the better vehicles. It's really just a big racket, but we all knew that.

I don't remember car makers saying that they couldn't make more efficient vehicles. What they said all along is exactly what you are saying now. They said that they couldn't sell more full efficient cars until the fuel price got to a level that consumers would be willing to pay the higher price and get less vehicle. If they could have produced a fuel efficient modern version of the 78 Ford LTD years ago they would have. We still don't have the technology to do that. The only thing that has changed is that people are now willing to accept less car for more money because of high gas prices. This problem is being addressed by the free-market like it should be. The car company that can build the largest car with the best mileage will come out on top.

KWICKO

Friday, February 29, 2008 10:50 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I agree. We need to stage an immediate pre-emptive strike against the sun. We need to push it back now because it's decaying orbit around the Earth is getting dangerously hot.

Unfortunately, I can't tell whether you're joking or not about the whole sun-revolving-around-the-earth thing. I s'pose in your universe, it's a FLAT Earth, too, huh?

M

"Me want Kill-Dozer!!"

KWICKO

Friday, February 29, 2008 10:52 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Damn, did someone clone me while I wasn't lookin ?

Kwicko, yer startin to scare me,I might have to knock you off due to territorial issues cause you're fleecin MY herd here....

And doin a rather bang-up job of it too.
*grumble*

-F

Sorry, Frem - didn't mean to poach on your hunting grounds. Sometimes, though, one just sees the shot and HAS to take it.

M

"Me want Kill-Dozer!!"

KWICKO

Friday, February 29, 2008 11:01 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
car manufacturers are now miraculously producing the vehicles they said they couldn't now that it is profitable, but most people can't afford the better vehicles. It's really just a big racket, but we all knew that.

I don't remember car makers saying that they couldn't make more efficient vehicles. What they said all along is exactly what you are saying now. They said that they couldn't sell more full efficient cars until the fuel price got to a level that consumers would be willing to pay the higher price and get less vehicle. If they could have produced a fuel efficient modern version of the 78 Ford LTD years ago they would have. We still don't have the technology to do that. The only thing that has changed is that people are now willing to accept less car for more money because of high gas prices. This problem is being addressed by the free-market like it should be. The car company that can build the largest car with the best mileage will come out on top.

Hmmmm... couldn't sell efficient cars? Honda Accords are pretty efficient, comparatively speaking, and Honda couldn't build enough of them to suit demand in the early 90s. My '91 Honda CRX is certainly efficient - if I flog the living shit out of it with the A/C on, it still won't dip BELOW 20 miles per gallon. On the highway, it gets as high as 46mpg. So I'd hardly say that carmakers couldn't SELL an efficient car, or that they had to charge too much for it - mine stickered at just over $11,000 in 1991 - hardly a king's ransom.

Not all of us are looking for the biggest car. Personally, I'd like to have the LEAST car I can, simply because I prize simplification and light weight over gadgets and gimcrackery. Call me old-fashioned...

We absolutely have the technology to produce mid-size cars that routinely get better than 35mpg. Ditch some of the luxury crap out of them, get the weight under 3000 pounds, and you'll be amazed at the efficiencies you achieve.

Mike

"Me want Kill-Dozer!!"

KillDozer doesn't get good gas mileage. KillDozer doesn't care about such things.

AURAPTOR

Friday, February 29, 2008 11:09 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

even thicker
Yes AU, this is very apt indeed.
Not the ice though, I mean....

Chrisisall

I wasn't talking about girth, so tell your wife to stop w/ the frantic e-mails. My box is nearly full.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

AURAPTOR

Friday, February 29, 2008 11:15 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Razza:

I wouldn't take Auraptors word for it either, but I suspect the the senior forecaster with the Canadian Ice Service in Ottawa knows what he's talking about:

Quote:
...Asked about the Arctic ice cover, Gilles Langis, a senior forecaster with the Canadian Ice Service in Ottawa, told the Post the Arctic winter had been so severe, the ice has not only recovered but was actually 10 to 20 cm thicker in many places than the same time last year...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/02/26/eaic
e126.xml

Thanks for the compliment...I think, that's the quote I knew I had seen, but couldn't find. I've happen to have been right so often that I think I've earned the righ to not have to post a link for EVERY fact I lay down here, but some just have a bias against me. Sucks for them, is all I can say.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

KIRKULES

Friday, February 29, 2008 11:38 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
[Hmmmm... couldn't sell efficient cars? Honda Accords are pretty efficient, comparatively speaking, and Honda couldn't build enough of them to suit demand in the early 90s.

I think you helped my argument by bringing up the Honda Accord. This was the first decent sized, fuel efficient car introduce that had mass appeal. But as soon as Toyota came along with the Camry, which was bigger, but still had relatively good fuel efficiency, Honda sales started to drop.

People will demand higher efficiency cars when they see it is in their personal self interest to do so and not before. The fee market is working. If the government gets involved by supporting one type of alternative(ethanol} over others, we will never see the technology emerge that can solve our fuel problem long term.

I have always driven fuel efficient 4 cylinder cars since gas hit $1.25/gal. I don't do it to save the world. I do it to save a buck. I hope the Chevy Volt is not too pricey when it comes out because I've always wanted an electric car.

SICKDUDE

Friday, February 29, 2008 11:41 PM (P)

Avenge, please don't knock yourself out here talking to these numbskulls. They've spent years here shooting down global warming with incorrect facts and crappy reasoning. You're not the only browncoat to understand what's going on, or to try to talk reason with them. But you're just not going to convince these folks of anything. Best to save the effort for someone who might listen. Believe me, they'll never get tired of being wrong.

No offense, Auraptor, Finn, et al....

"Your gratuitous jello awaits." - Dr. Helen Magnus, Sanctuary

ALLIETHORN7

Saturday, March 1, 2008 12:15 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:

The destruction of the entire human race just doesn't come off as a joking matter to me.

when there are no heroes where will we turn?

I happen to think that it is a hilarious idea. Hey, we all just died!
Meh. Global warming will happen, even if everyone became hippies and started using bicycles. It's natural; if we speed it up a bit, then boo-hoo, we die out faster. Have we even accomplisehed all that much to be proud about?
I believe that people who say that we will "Destroy the world with our errant ways" are on a level of supreme arrogance, and, yes, I will hit you for it.

-Danny

Choke choke again
I thought my demons were my friends
Getting me in the end
They're out to get me
Since I was young
I've tasted sorrow on my tongue
And this sweet chugga gun
Does not protect me

That's right
Trigger between my eyes
Please strike, Make it quick now

The Band of the week is... Korn
Gott weiß ich will kein Engel sein.
http://www.myspace.com/otherrandomdude

6IXSTRINGJACK

Saturday, March 1, 2008 11:58 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Sickdude:
Avenge, please don't knock yourself out here talking to these numbskulls. They've spent years here shooting down global warming with incorrect facts and crappy reasoning. You're not the only browncoat to understand what's going on, or to try to talk reason with them. But you're just not going to convince these folks of anything. Best to save the effort for someone who might listen. Believe me, they'll never get tired of being wrong.

No offense, Auraptor, Finn, et al....

"Your gratuitous jello awaits." - Dr. Helen Magnus, Sanctuary

Beliving global warming to be bunk is definately not a partisan thing. I fight with Rap and Finn quite a lot in here, but I don't buy into the global warming myth at all.

Whatever propoganda it takes to get the idiot proles to stop sucking on Middle East tit is fine with me though.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

CANTTAKESKY

Saturday, March 1, 2008 1:01 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Sickdude:
Believe me, they'll never get tired of being wrong.

I don't mind admitting I'm wrong when I'm wrong.

But I haven't seen any proof that you guys are right. I'm not a global warming atheist. I am a GW agnostic. Show me some proof, then we can talk.

The first proof anyone can show me is the standard deviation for the average annual global surface temperature. I have asked for this repeatedly in RWED, and then I've asked all over the internet. Strangely, no one seems to know this basic calculation tha comes with all averages. And even more strangely, no one seems to mind buying the whole-kit-and-kaboodle WITHOUT knowing this basic calculation.

Here is something global warming "believers" (like it's a religion) need to ask themselves. Why is it that they always talk about the CHANGE in average temp? Take any GW article, and ALL the numbers are about the CHANGE in average temp. They almost never talk about the average temps themselves. Why is that?

Talking about CHANGE assumes a constant for the average temp, which then gets represented as a Big Ol' Zero. Look at all the GW charts. You have zigzag lines that start below Zero and go above Zero. Everything in GW discussions assumes this Zero is correctly identified. Without talking about the average temps themselves, it draws away scrutiny on how the average was calculated to begin with, how accurate is that calculation, and how MUCH change is required before it is statistically significant.

Is there an accurate measure of the average annual global temperature to begin with?
http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/Temperatures.htm
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/03/is_there_an_average_global_tem_
1.html

--------------------------
There are three types of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
--Mark Twain

AURAPTOR

Saturday, March 1, 2008 1:03 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Sickdude:
Believe me, they'll never get tired of being wrong.

No offense, Auraptor, Finn, et al....

"Your gratuitous jello awaits." - Dr. Helen Magnus, Sanctuary

No offense taken, but why would you state that I never tire of being wrong ? You think I'm merely taking this position to be contrarian ? That I'm 'bucking the trend' for the sake of being different? Nope, the fact of the matter is, I' don't see the evidence showing anything out of the ordinary when it comes to the claims of the global warming zealots. How old are you ? By that, I mean to say, how long have you been on this planet ? What is your perspective of how the climate "should be " ? Our recent snapshot of history in the past 100, 500, 10,000 yrs is just that, a thin slice of this planet's history. Our climate has always been in flux, long before the industrial revolution, long before man. So to so boldly state that we're screwing up what " normal " weather should be like, is utterly ridiculous.

Oceans rise and fall. Glaciers advance and receed. We know this to be a undeniable fact, and yet somehow, someone's decided that the state of things as they are NOW, is " normal ",or would be if mankind would stop screwing things up, that nature chose to have it that way for eternity. Sorry, not how it works. There's far too much ignorance of the Earth's history, coupled w/ the arrogance that mankind is sooooo powerful that we alone can alter the entire planet's climate w/ out even trying.

Not so fast, my friend.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

ANTIMASON

Saturday, March 1, 2008 8:31 PM (P)

Quote:

Anti,
I really have come to respect your usually very thought provoking rebuttals. It's nice to hear we can have reasonable debates across the aisle.

thats very nice of you to say, thank you. i respect that your honost and admit your 'liberal' leanings, it makes it easier to debate the contrasts in our ideologies

Quote:
Well the problem with saying people have the right to live as they want is that if someone else is pollutes the environment, they don't give you the right to your freedom. I completely agree with freedom so long as it does not affect another persons freedom, i.e. I don't eat meat and would like for everyone to stop, but it is legal and while I would like for people to stop it does not infringe upon my freedoms to not eat them or protect them if they are on my property, just as you owning a gun and shooting it on your own property is none of my business. However if you start taking potshots at the creatures on my property expressly knowing that it is against my wishes then you affect my personal freedom to live as I wish to. If it were a simple matter of you stay over there and I'll stay over here I would agree, but environmental issues affect a global population, therefore protecting everyone's right to live as they choose becomes and issue of limiting an individuals right to affect another persons, unless of course you resort to violence which I'd really rather not have to do.

i thought you might find this interesting, its a response given to a similar scenario by Ron Paul, in an interview with John Stossel(about 5 min). id be curious your response to it(or the whole interview for that matter)

i would like to respond to some of your other comments, but ill have to get back to you

AVENGINGWATCHER

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 3:07 AM (P)

I like most of the talk, however Ron Paul's voting record on the environment is terrible. For someone who is worried about pollution he is not at all worried about drilling in ANWR or offshore. Also I find his positions hypocritical in some cases. Aside form that he may want to actually learn what a bullet can do to a pressurized cabin. Safer if there was a pilot accessible gas system to incapacitate anyone on board along with a personal protective system such as a rubber bullet weapon. So he talks very pretty, unfortunately he protects big business at the expense of the little person far too much and it seems as though he is pandering to try and get votes.

When there are no heroes where will we turn?

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 5:58 AM (P)

You have to take it in context though.

If the US Constitution does not explicitly authorise Congress to do something, he *HAS* to vote No - even if the rest of the planet thinks it's a good idea.

Folk have become so used to Congressfolk violating that document willy-nilly that when it's violated in their favor they cheer for it, not realising that this just further erodes the poor tattered thing even now that it's just a mostly-ignored shell of itself.

The Government does not have any authority over certain things, it most explicitly does NOT, and to usurp it is a Constitutional Violation no matter how strongly someone feels about it, barring an actual amendment of the document itself.

He may not even personally, morally, agree with how he votes, but if the Constitution does not expressly authorise the Gov to do something - that's a no-no, and he WILL vote No, even if he believes the action is morally correct, because that is his DUTY as a member of Congress, something the rest of them seem to have forgotten.

This is a guy who does his duty to the best of his understanding of the Constitution and it's meanings regardless of his personal feelings on the matter at hand and sometimes even despite them, who does the job by the rules, instead of bending them, remaking them to his favor, or throwing them out the window like everyone else does.

I respect that, I respect it a whole hell of a lot, how many people could you give such power, and a set of limits no one else seems to give a damn about, and they would not follow the crowd over the line ?

Not very bloody many, that I assure you.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

AVENGINGWATCHER

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 7:42 PM (P)

Don't get me wrong I am sure he is a great guy, but that doesn't mean you get to say you're for environmentalism and that you don't want someone polluting upstream, but that you support drilling in ANWR or offshore. They are two polar opposite ways of doing things. If it against the constitution to protect the welfare of our citizen's then I think its time for a different reader. I like Ralph Nader and agree with a lot of his policies, but that doesn't mean I would vote someone who is a pacifist into government. Thats like having Simon on prisoner duty and then giving the prisoner a gun, just isn't kosher. I am sure that the founding fathers really did not mean for the constitution to leave no power in the hands of the president. Keep in mind they started some of the organizations that Paul would like to get rid of.

When there are no heroes where will we turn?

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 9:09 PM (P)

Quote:
If it against the constitution to protect the welfare of our citizen's then I think its time for a different reader.

I disagree, wholeheartedly, that is awful steep slope smothered in crisco, and it's exactly what got us INTO this mess.

"For your own good" is the very worst of all possible tyrannies.

Quote:
I am sure that the founding fathers really did not mean for the constitution to leave no power in the hands of the president.

Well, you could try reading it.

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.txt

And if you fail to understand the meaning or reasoning behind any of the terms, conditions or statements...

Try reading the arguments that were the anvil on which this steel was forged.

The Federalist Papers.
http://thomas.loc.gov/home/histdox/fedpapers.html

The Anti-Federalist Papers.
http://www.thisnation.com/library/antifederalist/index.html

For the record, the Bill of Rights was created to pacify and encourage the consent of the Anti-Federalists, whom history has proven absolutely correct on almost *every single point*.

Bit of a shame the Federalists won the day, given that it has lead us here.
All of the abuses, usurpations, and exploitations we have suffered at the hands of our own Government today were called, chapter and verse, as far back as 1788.

Anyhows, ignoring and defying the Constitution when it becomes "inconvenient" renders the entire document and it's purpose void - and is exactly what lead to us the disastrous nadir in which we find ourselves today.

By that light, I cannot possibly support the idea of compounding the foolishness by ignoring and defying it some more.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

AVENGINGWATCHER

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 11:28 PM (P)

Ahem...

The jurisdiction of the public welfare falls under congress. The can even levy taxes to make sure that the public welfare is served.

Oh and according to the constitution there should be no national guard and the disbanding of the air force should commence immediately because there is no provision for it, as well as all armed forces because they should only be called up for two years.

Also
The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and
Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United
States

and really by the original constitution that includes the bill of rights, our current president has violated the bill of rights

Been a few years since I've read it word for word, however as the document was meant to be an elastic document, a literal reading makes our country impossible to govern effectively, nor would we have any roads, public schools, standing army, national guard, etc...

So, based upon reading the constitution yes I believe that for the public welfare, companies should use technologies currently available to protect the health and welfare of the population.

so I am not for a massive government, but I feel it is well within the rights of the government to enforce and demand basic protection of environmental policies from companies that choose to do business in the United States.

When there are no heroes where will we turn?

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 12:04 AM (P)

No, it was not whatever meant as an "Elastic Document" and that perception only came about via years of Judicial Malpractice by the Supreme Court reinterpreting obvious things to mean the exact opposite - it was meant to be iron-clad save for amendment, and the States to do the things not expressly authorised to the Fed.

And believe me, I am all in favor of returning to it's original principles, and well aware of the simple fact that we are NOT supposed to have a standing army.

Constitutionally, the FedGov has no authority over environmental issues unless specific laws are passed regarding them, in compliance with the Constitution and it's processes.

This means that yes, some of those laws are entirely valid - as well the individual States, under the document, theoretically retain their sovereignity on those issues as well and can set and enforce polices themselves as it's not expressly a Federal Power.

But again, once you start playing into stuff like "Public Welfare" - you run into problems of definition supposed to be the Jurisdiction of the Supreme Court, a duty they have by their own actions abysmally failed, subverted, and even used to usurp authority on behalf of the Executive.

When you open the door to bending rules in YOUR favor, you open to it the other side bending it in THEIRS, do you not see ?

And they have more money, and more lobbyists than you do.

If yer gonna do it, do it by the book, or just toss the thing into the nearest bin and be done with it - but you cannot pick and choose, it doesn't work that way, and was never intended to, which is why I posted those links.

I would say take your concerns to your state officials, and if you wish to broaden the scope then lean on your Congressperson to *introduce* legislation to address those issues, that's why we have them in the first place.

Not meanin to bust your chops, just sayin there's a way to go about it - unless you're interested in diving in with us Anarchists, that is.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

AVENGINGWATCHER

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 2:43 AM (P)

anarchy, now there's a stable government!

My real issue with Paul as I said is that he voted against legislation that would protect the public welfare. By not voting to protect public interest he voted for big business. The environment is about as public as you can get, everyone breathes the same air so the entirety of the public is affected. Point of interest environmental regulations were in place and Bush removed the regulation when he came into office, which I find abhorrent and an abuse of power. In all reality the person I would love to see in office is Kucinich. He has a snowballs chance in the hot place, but a boy can dream, well actually I'd love to be a benevolent dictator but that's just a fantasy. At least I'd have pizza Fridays for my slaves!

When there are no heroes where will we turn?

JAYNEZTOWN

Monday, March 3, 2025 5:27 PM (P)

Scientists discover a green way to recycle lithium-ion batteries using cooking oil

https://knowridge.com/2025/02/scientists-discover-a-green-way-to-recyc
le-lithium-ion-batteries-using-cooking-oil/