WTF? People on here voted that Bush should be prez in '04?!

POSTED BY: Agatsu
UPDATED: Monday, January 8, 2024 12:12
VIEWED: 13751
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AGATSU

Monday, March 3, 2008 10:08 AM (P)

I just read the results of an old poll on here, about who should be the president of the U.S. (in '04), and most people voted for Bush?
I'm kind of baffled because I thought people on here were - in lack of a better word - smarter than that.
Defend yourselves and your vile Alliance sympathies!

I'm just curious, so please keep it civil.

http://fireflyfans.net/pollresults.asp?pid=19

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"Dude, you never wanna f*ck with a Browncoat, man." - Kevin Smith

I think that cats know the deepest secrets of the universe, but they don't give a shit.

AURAPTOR

Monday, March 3, 2008 11:08 AM (P)

It was a goofy poll, where folks could vote as often as they wished, if I recall correctly.

And don't forget, John F. Kerry was the other choice.

'nuff said.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

6IXSTRINGJACK

Monday, March 3, 2008 12:07 PM (P)

LOL... nice thread

Yeah, I was a bush man in '00 and '04

I didn't have nothing to do with that poll though. I never saw Firefly until '06.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

LEADB

Monday, March 3, 2008 12:35 PM (P)

Voted for Kerry... after all the alternative was Bush.

BADKARMA00

Monday, March 3, 2008 12:50 PM (P)

Like I was gonna vote for Kerry! ROFL!!!

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

DEADLOCKVICTIM

Monday, March 3, 2008 2:20 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Agatsu:
...because I thought people on here were - in lack of a better word - smarter than that....

i used to think the same thing... after that poll.... not so much.

i did not, would not, absolutely could not vote for bush... and after the election, i posted my thoughts on on the site below....

http://www.sorryeverybody.com/

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, March 3, 2008 3:16 PM (P)

Quote:
And don't forget, John F. Kerry was the other choice.

*rimshot*

So true, so true.

I was pushing for Dean, but when he bent over the sawhorse for the Dem Leadership after they intentionally sandbagged him, one of their own, for not "playing ball" - I left him to the inglorious fate he so richly deserved for being gutless when it counted.

I didn't vote FOR Kerry, I voted AGAINST Bush.
http://www.kerryhatersforkerry.com/
Sums up about how all of us felt about his ass, too, that site does.

This election is more of the same, a pack of scumbags I wouldn't trust to get my trash to the landfill, much less in public office.

Not much sense placing an order when there's nothing on the menu you'd like to have, is there ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, March 3, 2008 3:35 PM (P)

Actually I think Jacob said it best...

"I remain totally unimpressed by John Kerry. Outside of his opposition to the death penalty, I've never seen him demonstrate any real political courage. His baby steps in the direction of reform liberalism during the 1990s were all followed by hasty retreats. His Senate vote against the 1991 Gulf War demonstrates an instinctive aversion to the use of American force, even when it's clearly justified. Kerry's major policy proposals in this campaign range from implausible to ill-conceived. He has no real idea what to do differently in Iraq. His health-care plan costs too much to be practical and conflicts with his commitment to reducing the deficit. At a personal level, he strikes me as the kind of windbag that can only emerge when a naturally pompous and self-regarding person marinates for two decades inside the U.S. Senate. If elected, Kerry would probably be a mediocre, unloved president on the order of Jimmy Carter. And I won't have a second's regret about voting for him. Kerry's failings are minuscule when weighed against the massive damage to America's standing in the world, our economic future, and our civic institutions that would likely result from a second Bush term."
-Jacob Weisberg

Truthfully, I never did find a single person who actually *liked* Kerry, just someone who knew someone who maybe did...

-F

PIRATECAT

Monday, March 3, 2008 4:00 PM (P)

I voted for Bush twice. Do a third time. I don't need to use the F word to prove I'm intelligent.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

BADKARMA00

Monday, March 3, 2008 4:27 PM (P)

Well said, PC. Agreement

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

SERGEANTX

Monday, March 3, 2008 4:59 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Agatsu:
I just read the results of an old poll on here, about who should be the president of the U.S. (in '04), and most people voted for Bush?

Yeah... kinda sad, ain't it? Even more depressing is that over half the country fell for it. I can understand the first time around. Bush was preaching old-school conservatism and pretending to be against nation-building and big government waste. Talk about a turd in sheep's clothing.

But in '04, they had no excuse. They voted for him knowing exactly what he was. I honestly think it was just fear. All the chickenshits felt like we needed a belligerent foreign policy to show them evil terrorists how tough we are.

I suppose it really all comes down to this bill-of-goods we've been sold about 'viability'. We blindly accept the two establishment-approved as the only realistic choices. Sorry, but it's no choice at all, and until the morons that make up our pool of registered voters wake up, we'll keep getting the same crap. Look at this year's race for more details.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

HERO

Monday, March 3, 2008 6:06 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Agatsu:
I'm kind of baffled because I thought people on here were - in lack of a better word - smarter than that.

Serves you right for underestimating us...or is it overestimating...either way mating with us is not a good idea...no...I mean I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence had very little to do with that decision. No, that doesn't sound right either...'reporting for duty'...please, he lost that election before he finished saluting.

And Gore? A tree would get more votes and be far more effective. If AlGore fell in the woods and nobody was around, would he make a sound?

I still remember the Bush/Gore debate where Gore is following Bush around, trying to get in his camera shot while Bush is talking and Bush kinda turns and looks him up and down before smirking and continuing his answer. Great moment.

The real question to ask the Republicans on the board is Clinton or Obama? I'm voting Clinton here in Ohio cause the Republican race is over and I want the Democratic race to continue, every day, right through convention and street riots that will probably happen right after.

H

KWICKO

Monday, March 3, 2008 7:13 PM (P)

Way I always figured it was like this:

If you voted for Bush the first time 'round, you could be forgiven. Especially if you weren't from Texas and didn't already know what a genuine pile of feces the guy is. I mean, this is the guy who giggled like a little schoolgirl while recounting the execution of a woman in Texas. Did she deserve to die? Almost definitely. BUT - and this is a big "but" - she, her church, and the Pope himself all said that she had reformed, accepted Jeebus, et cetera ad nauseum, and should not be executed. And Bush is supposedly (or, as he would say, "supposably") the guy who's big on being born again (pardon me for getting it right the first time) and getting second chances...

So, okay; you didn't know any better, and you voted for him once. That's... well, understandable isn't quite the right word...

But if you then voted for him in '04, you were actually being AGGRESSIVELY stupid. You were dodging the news, or anything that even HINTED of the facts. You were going far, far out of your way to stay ill-informed (by watching Faux News), misinformed (by listening to Rush Rim-job), or uninformed (by watching or listening to Bill Orally).

Anyone who could see the shape of the world in 2004 and still support Bush has my... what's the phrase I'm looking for? Sympathy? Nope, that ain't it. Pity? Nooooo, not that. Hate? No - hate's too strong a word. Let's just say dislike. As in, I dislike your choice of candidates with the white-hot intensity of a thousand exploding stars.

"Hero" wrote:

Quote:
...I mean I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence had very little to do with that decision.

[Cue Simon Cowell snarky voice] You're kidding. Really? I can't believe it...

'nuff said.

Mike

"I not only study for Prez-dent - I are one!" - George W. Bush

"Every time I see him, I can't help but think that somewhere, a village is missing a perfectly good idiot." - Everyone who ever met Bush

CREVANREAVER

Monday, March 3, 2008 7:16 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
And don't forget, John F. Kerry was the other choice.

Exactly. I'm a libertarian and voted for Michael Badnarik in 2004, but I was also a 'Anybody But Kerry' guy and would have chosen Bush over Kerry if I had to...and still would. George W. Bush may be a turd, but John Kerry's a douche.

SERGEANTX

Monday, March 3, 2008 7:40 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by CrevanReaver:
... would have chosen Bush over Kerry if I had to.

But you didn't. And you didn't. That's what I think is the most painful issue involved in this. Not so much that some people thought Kerry was worse than Bush, but that they constrained themselves to two shitty candidates because ...because.. hell I can't think of a reason that makes any sense to me. Just movin' with the herd I guess. The 'other of two evils' excuse just doesn't cut it.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

KIRKULES

Monday, March 3, 2008 9:46 PM (P)

Considering all the shit Bush had to deal with, like the aftermath of the Dot.com bubble, 911, the largest natural disaster in US history and two wars. I think he has done a pretty good job. This country is still in pretty good shape considering what we've been through in the last 8 years. I'm not in any way assamed of voting for him twice. I think a few years down the road many that now hate Bush will be saying with the clarity of hindsight, that he was a good President.

GRIZWALD

Monday, March 3, 2008 9:56 PM (P)

I wasn't here for the poll, but yes, I voted for Pres. Bush, and I do not regret it. I am ready for something new, but I do not regret my choice, and I am quite happy here at FFF.net. Surprise.

___________________________________________________
High Priestess of Pork and Ag-Related Activities of the MYTHICAL LAND OF IOWA

Click on my profile for my Annoyingly Long List of Firefly Links.

KWICKO

Monday, March 3, 2008 10:07 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Considering all the shit Bush had to deal with, like the aftermath of the Dot.com bubble, 911, the largest natural disaster in US history and two wars. I think he has done a pretty good job. This country is still in pretty good shape considering what we've been through in the last 8 years. I'm not in any way assamed of voting for him twice. I think a few years down the road many that now hate Bush will be saying with the clarity of hindsight, that he was a good President.

Question: How do you feel about Carter? He's typically vilified by the right, who can go on for days (and do, often) about how bad he was. You don't think he had things to deal with? Gas lines, the aftermath of our loss in Viet Nam, a general malaise and lack of morale in this country, and so on...

I'm just sayin', is all.

And the "two wars" thing that Bush had to deal with - that's all on him. One of them was a just war, the other was just a war. There IS a difference.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

Best. Quote. Ever.

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, March 3, 2008 10:24 PM (P)

Quote:
I think he has done a pretty good job. This country is still in pretty good shape considering what we've been through in the last 8 years.

That has got to be the most insane thing I have heard around here in weeks, and that's including PN's ranting.

I question your contact with reality.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Monday, March 3, 2008 10:28 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I question your contact with reality.

Right back at cha big fellow.

DEADLOCKVICTIM

Monday, March 3, 2008 10:34 PM (P)

....sweet, fancy moses...

this place is chock-full of ditto-heads....

(and i thought this was cool site once upon a time)

KIRKULES

Monday, March 3, 2008 10:42 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Considering all the shit Bush had to deal with, like the aftermath of the Dot.com bubble, 911, the largest natural disaster in US history and two wars. I think he has done a pretty good job. This country is still in pretty good shape considering what we've been through in the last 8 years. I'm not in any way assamed of voting for him twice. I think a few years down the road many that now hate Bush will be saying with the clarity of hindsight, that he was a good President.

Question: How do you feel about Carter? He's typically vilified by the right, who can go on for days (and do, often) about how bad he was. You don't think he had things to deal with? Gas lines, the aftermath of our loss in Viet Nam, a general malaise and lack of morale in this country, and so on...

I'm just sayin', is all.

And the "two wars" thing that Bush had to deal with - that's all on him. One of them was a just war, the other was just a war. There IS a difference.

Mike

The first election that I was eligible to vote was when Carter was running for reelection. I voted for him, but given what I know now, I regret it. He was a good man until in recent years he has become bitter and somewhat of an annoyance. I like Presidents to go away after serving their term and don't like them acting like their still an elected official for life.

I agree that some of the problems that Bush has had to deal with are of his own making, but this was true of Carter also. The Iranians would have instantly handed back the hostages if he would have shown a little spine. His gloomy disposition sure did add to the economic problems and the funk that hung over the country at that time. I was lucky to have a job throughout that time but many of my friends got laid off. It always strikes me funny when I hear people tell me how bad things are now, when things were so much worst during Carters term. I'll take a housing bubble any day over 15% interest rates. I drive around now days and even in the middle of an economic downturn I see help wanted signs. I don't think I ever saw one in my youth, until I was about 25-30 years old.

HOPERULES

Monday, March 3, 2008 10:46 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
I think he has done a pretty good job. This country is still in pretty good shape considering what we've been through in the last 8 years.

That has got to be the most insane thing I have heard around here in weeks, and that's including PN's ranting.

I question your contact with reality.

Why is it when discussing politics people don't talk about facts but throw around phrases like "the most insane thing I ever heard", "I question your contact with reality", and "WTF"? It seems like more of a personal attack than a honest difference of opinion. "Logic!... Why don't they teach logic at these schools." (C.S. Lewis)

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

KWICKO

Monday, March 3, 2008 11:00 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
The first election that I was eligible to vote was when Carter was running for reelection. I voted for him, but given what I know now, I regret it. He was a good man until in recent years he has become bitter and somewhat of an annoyance. I like Presidents to go away after serving their term and don't like them acting like their still an elected official for life.

Bitter? All I ever see is Carter swinging a hammer for Habitat For Humanity, or helping to oversee elections overseas (we could sure use some of that help here at home, to make sure OUR elections aren't rigged. Or rigged AGAIN.), or traveling around the globe with Bush 1 trying to raise money to help out the impoverished.

I *do* wish former Presidents would go away, though. Especially the soon-to-be-former one. I'm sure he'll go on the speaking tour, but who in their right mind would actually PAY to hear him mangle the language is beyond me...

Quote:
I agree that some of the problems that Bush has had to deal with are of his own making, but this was true of Carter also. The Iranians would have instantly handed back the hostages if he would have shown a little spine. His gloomy disposition sure did add to the economic problems and the funk that hung over the country at that time. I was lucky to have a job throughout that time but many of my friends got laid off. It always strikes me funny when I hear people tell me how bad things are now, when things were so much worst during Carters term. I'll take a housing bubble any day over 15% interest rates. I drive around now days and even in the middle of an economic downturn I see help wanted signs. I don't think I ever saw one in my youth, until I was about 25-30 years old.

Actually, Carter DID show "a little spine". He OK'd a daring, but ill-fated, rescue mission utilizing the until-then-unheard-of Delta Force. They were supposed to use a modified C-130 to land in a soccer stadium, pick up the hostages, and get the hell out, but two of their support 'copters crashed into each other in a sandstorm, killing most if not all of the crews and the operatives.

Also, it was a bit difficult to get much traction with rescuing the hostages when Ronald "We don't negotiate with terrorists" Reagan was already DEEP into negotiations with those very same terrorists, playing into their hands in the hopes that they could conspire to make Carter look worse than he already did. In other words, Reagan sold out his country and his people for political gain. How very, very Republican of him.

As for things being "so much worst", I'm not convinced of that, at all. Not sure who it was that couldn't find a job, but *I* had a job, and I was a freaking stoner at the time!

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

Best. Quote. Ever.

KIRKULES

Monday, March 3, 2008 11:01 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
I think he has done a pretty good job. This country is still in pretty good shape considering what we've been through in the last 8 years.

That has got to be the most insane thing I have heard around here in weeks, and that's including PN's ranting.

I question your contact with reality.

Coming from you, your response is actually somewhat comforting to me.

Thanks Frem

KIRKULES

Monday, March 3, 2008 11:15 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
[*I* had a job, and I was a freaking stoner at the time!

Ah, the good old days, when us stoners could still operate heavy machinery(dammed Meese).

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, March 3, 2008 11:17 PM (P)

Oh my stars and garters, you actually GOT the double-ended joke I was making of that.

I didn't expect anyone to actually catch that ball, but folks will surprise you.

-Frem
EDIT: Actually I was kinda half-hoping to draw a quote from Book...
"Coming from you, that means... almost nothing."

BADKARMA00

Monday, March 3, 2008 11:41 PM (P)

You know, I was thinking about commenting in here on this, but then I read things like 'land a c-130 in a soccer stadium' and, once I get over laughing, I figure, why bother.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

JRC

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 2:36 AM (P)

Hey it was modified, remember? Like maybe 20 feet long! With a crew of one.

Everyone dies alone.

AVENGINGWATCHER

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 5:24 AM (P)

To whomever said that Bush is doing a good job, ummm 9/11 was Bush's fault for blatantly ignoring the multiple warnings. Regardless of direct of indirect, he dropped that ball and he dropped the ball on international politics, the one time in recent history the world felt bad for us and he had to use it as a point to prove he was a hate monger. It happened on his watch.

Secondly, the country is in a recession, the housing market is in the toilet which are not entirely his fault, but a lot of the value of American money comes from faith in our figure head. Like it or not he speaks for America and who really wants to give their money to the D student in the class?

Third, the guy is a prick to our veteran's. For someone who can't even show up for his own duty he sure has a pair of brass ones to insult our troops the way he has. Our troops health and well being comes before pay increases in Washington or handouts to big corporations, or at least it should. I support the hunt for Osama, I support the war in Afghanistan, but Iraq was ill-conceived, poorly planned and completely pointless. If Bush had listened to Shinseki the war would have at least been planned well.

Fourth, the guy has an economic plan of "go buy stuff". Hello, buddy, have you seen the growth rate for people's salaries? People are actually making less now, well unless you are already insanely wealthy, because then your money improved.

Fifth, our borders are less secure now than during 9/11. It is so bad that volunteers have gone down to secure our borders. Now I have no real grudge against illegal immigrants, but seriously if we can't stop unorganized illegals from getting into our country , how do we expect to stop someone with a plan?

I may not agree with most Republican's on most things but, I can at least say that Bush senior had some brains in his head, hell even Reagan was better suited for presidency.

You know what I think would be best for America? Someone who was actually in the middle, in the terms of Ed Shultz " A hard line drive to left center" or Right center for that matter. Someone who took care of small business and the middle class, while fixing our broken welfare system, taking care of our veterans and reducing the size of our bloated bureaucracy. Take care of our elderly and make sure everyone can get at least emergency and life-saving care, as well as a preventative program to save money in the long term. Anyone else agree that we are far polar opposites?

Oh and let me say I am not calling Bush voters morons or anything, but do you really think we are better off? Bush makes me pray for Dole.

When there are no heroes where will we turn?

KIRKULES

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 7:07 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
Third, the guy is a prick to our veteran's. For someone who can't even show up for his own duty he sure has a pair of brass ones to insult our troops the way he has. Our troops health and well being comes before pay increases in Washington or handouts to big corporations, or at least it should.

I don't think all Veterans would agree with your characterization of Bush's treatment of Veterans. Bush in a recent speech to Veterans said,
" The time when we're holding down discretionary spending, my 2007 budget -- with my 2007 budget, my administration will have increased funding for our veterans by $35 billion since I took office, which is an increase of 75 percent. (Applause.)
We have made health care a top priority for my administration. With my 2007 budget, we'll increase VA's medical care budget by 69 percent since 2001. Our increased funding has given almost a million more veterans access to the VA medical care system. Since January 2002, disability claims are being processed 63 days faster than they were when I took office. In the last four years, we've committed almost $3 billion to modernize and expanding VA facilities so that more veterans can get care closer to home. We're working to ensure that veterans with the greatest needs -- those with service disabilities and lower incomes and special needs -- are given priority. We've making sure that our men and women returning from combat are the first in line for treatment. (Applause.) "

Quote:
Fifth, our borders are less secure now than during 9/11. It is so bad that volunteers have gone down to secure our borders. Now I have no real grudge against illegal immigrants, but seriously if we can't stop unorganized illegals from getting into our country , how do we expect to stop someone with a plan?

While I agree Bush hasn't done enough about border security, he has done more than any President in history. Bush deserves some credit for stopping illegals while at the same time his statements early in his administration did encourage immigrates to come to the US. In his own defense Bush said,
"Since I've taken office we've increased funding for border security by 60 percent. Our border agents have used that funding to apprehend and send home more than 4.5 million people coming into our country illegally, including more than 350,000 with criminal records.....

Arizona Border Control Initiative, which the government launched in 2004. In the first year of this initiative -- now, listen to this, listen how hard these people are working here -- agents in Arizona apprehended nearly 500,000 illegal immigrants, a 42-percent increase over the previous year. "

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 8:49 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Agatsu:
I just read the results of an old poll on here, about who should be the president of the U.S. (in '04), and most people voted for Bush?
I'm kind of baffled because I thought people on here were - in lack of a better word - smarter than that.

Yes, it is often that pseudo-quasi-intellectual liberals assume they are smarter than everybody else, which is why they don't know much. When you learn and open your eyes, you'll become conservative.

But here is a real newsflash: can you imagine that almost half of the voters in America voted for Slick Willie? And then 4 years later, almost half the voters again voted for him? Now THAT's amazing. You'd think people would be smarter than that.

AGATSU

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 11:45 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Yes, it is often that pseudo-quasi-intellectual liberals assume they are smarter than everybody else, which is why they don't know much. When you learn and open your eyes, you'll become conservative.

"Pseudo-quasi-intellectual"? Wouldn't that mean they only appear to only appear as intellectual, thus making them actually intellectual? Pseudo-quasi-double negative and all...

Also, I didn't become anything but ALARMED and PISSED OFF when I learned and opened my eyes and witnessed the Bush administration shitting on everything the US supposedly stands for - and the whole WORLD was his toilet.
As a side note, many countries outside the US actually have a democracy that has more options than "conservative" and "liberal", so don't try to pigeon-hole me into your narrow-minded democratic system, kthx.
Remember right after 911? The US will NEVER get any more popular than at that moment, when most of the world showed their sincere sympathy and grieve. And then the Bush administration went completely fucking nuts.
INVADING A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY for democracy although the majority of the UNITED NATIONS is against it? Hooray for democracy, as long as people vote for whatever greedy agenda Bush has in store for the WORLD.
And Hooray for freedom, but let's take as much as possible of that away from our own people!
Ah, I didn't even wanna go there, look what you did. Now I get filed under "potential terrorist" in some database because of this post. Then again, according to the patriot act, we ALL are potential terrorists, so I'm ready to get kidnapped out of my own sovereign country to be held without trial for an indefinite amount of time in a prison outside the US where I can get my ass tortured. As an "enemy combatant", of course, because "Prisoners of War" can't be tortured due to the Geneva conventions (another stupid thing from "Old Europe" that is a thorn in W's side).

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

But here is a real newsflash: can you imagine that almost half of the voters in America voted for Slick Willie? And then 4 years later, almost half the voters again voted for him? Now THAT's amazing. You'd think people would be smarter than that.

I had no beef with Clinton. At least his shit didn't throw the WORLD (and that includes my little country in "Old Europe") into an unwinnable war against "terrorism", and he didn't come up with "Patriot Act I" and "Patriot Act with a Vengeance", nor pull a quarter of the shit W vomited on your once quite popular country and the rest of the world.
To be honest, I didn't even give a shit about who was president of the U.S. (gasp) until that chimp showed up with his buddies and I saw the whole planet going down the drain. I'm German, and let's just say I see a lot of history repeating.

However...

I still love y'all.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dude, you never wanna f*ck with a Browncoat, man." - Kevin Smith

I think that cats know the deepest secrets of the universe, but they don't give a shit.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 3:14 PM (P)

Scared & angry peeps vote for hawks to feel better is all. Bush used the negatives to his advantage, can't fault him for that. Just sad to see Browncoats so easily led by the nose....

See, I'd vote for Bush before I'd vote for Romney, because I see Romney as being even MORE dangerous to the country (in terms of escalating war & American deaths), I wouldn't AUTOMATICALLY rule out Bush because of conflicting views- and that's the anti-Kerry/Gore crowd...willing to see our troop's blood on Iraqi soil before they'd vote in a turd not of their 'liking'.

Chrisisall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 3:28 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Agatsu:
I just read the results of an old poll on here, about who should be the president of the U.S. (in '04), and most people voted for Bush?
I'm kind of baffled because I thought people on here were - in lack of a better word - smarter than that.

When you take out of the paranoid delusional nut bags that skew the average, we are a very smart bunch, which is why we voted for Bush in 04.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 3:40 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
[ When you take out of the paranoid delusional nut bags that skew the average, we are a very smart bunch, which is why we voted for Bush in 04.

Curious Finn, how would this country be WORSE off right now if we'd had Kerry (uggh) or Gore as Presidents? More American troop deaths? Bigger deficit? Worse economy? Greater trampling on our Constitution? More terrorist attacks? Weaker border control? Cleaner air? World War 4?
Really. What's so much better for having Bush/Cheney as opposed to the alternatives we had?

Chrisisall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 3:47 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Curious Finn, how would this country be WORSE off right now if we'd had Kerry (uggh) or Gore as Presidents?

Why don’t you tell me?

Then explain to me how we'b be better for changing administrations in the middle of a war?

And when Kerry lapses into his anti-war hippy days when he trashed American troops and praised the enemy that was killing them, how will that benefit the war?

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 4:17 PM (P)

Like a train wreck, isn't it ?

So absolutely horrible to watch, but you just can't resist looking, can you ?

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 4:26 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Why don’t you tell me?

Less Americans and others would be dead right now for one.
Gore's no hawk, but I don't see him bein' an ostrich either.
I just don't realistically see how this world could have been worse off with Gore (or even Kerry (ughhh)).

The AlGore 5000 would have terminated the Talibanisall

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 4:27 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Like a train wreck, isn't it ?

So absolutely horrible to watch, but you just can't resist looking, can you ?

Yeah.

DEADLOCKVICTIM

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 4:52 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Agatsu:
I thought people on here were - in lack of a better word - smarter than that.
Defend yourselves and your vile Alliance sympathies!

after sleeping on this here question, i decided to show ya'll muy tru colors... let my freak flag fly, so to speak.... yeah, i reckon all us'ns out chere in the hinder lands is a might slow on the uptick, but lordy, lordy, we do's have us a right good time...

we's dont give a rats ass bout no civil rights or invirrment... .... thems just fancy words anyhow.... so's i called up my kissin cousin Freida Bee and she sented me some o her old stories... theys pretty good but they is one pitcher of cousin Freida passed out on the picnic table in her all unders... but taint nothing you wouldnt see down at the gulf o mexico.... so if'n you dont want to see no white girl flesh dont go to this here website deal..

i think ole Freida oughta be the prezdent anyhow...

http://freidabee.blogspot.com/search/label/Tha%20Florence%20Joe%20Diar
ies%3A%20Fer%20Tha%20Love%20a%20Gawd

hey meemaw... you got anymore a that lime koolade???

PIRATENEWS

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 4:56 PM (P)

Cheney says Bin Laden Innocent on 9/11

Nuff said.

The Summer Glau Chronicles: Free download of all episodes
http://www.fox.com/fod/player.htm?show=tscc

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 6:00 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by deadlockvictim:

after sleeping on this here question, i decided to show ya'll muy tru colors...

Now at least I know who I'm dealin' with here...

The inbredisall

DEADLOCKVICTIM

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 6:07 PM (P)

Praise Jesus fer SPAM Singles!

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 6:14 PM (P)

Deadlockvictim must be banned! He crossed the line of stupidity!!!

SO SAY WE ALL!

DEADLOCKVICTIM

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 6:15 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Now at least I know who I'm dealin' with here...:

Au contraire, mon amie...

DEADLOCKVICTIM

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 6:19 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
crossed the line of stupidity

it was a stupid line and was begging to be crossed

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 6:24 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by deadlockvictim:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
crossed the line of stupidity

it was a stupid line and was begging to be crossed

There's a line in the road begging to be crossed too, you might wanna oblige...you know, until you can't anymore, that is.

Taunting Chrisisall

DEADLOCKVICTIM

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 6:40 PM (P)

dang, Chris - all's i was tryin to do was bring youall a taste of real America and all's i get is a threat of banishment... and vague death threats to boot...!

go back and read Freida Bee's words and see if you don't agree that she has put her finger on the true essence of this fine country...

i mean, dang, is you is or is you aint my constituency..?

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 6:48 PM (P)

Silly silly British man.

FREIDABEE

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 6:50 PM (P)

Deadlock Victim- I thank you kindly for the linky love.

Some people may not appreciate the revolutionary nature of SPAM Singles, but believe me you the electers of George W in '04 do and Texas will decide the Democratic nominee whether 'murica likes it or not. It's best you understand what matters to Texans, 'cause it's remotely possible it could go Democratic in a presidential general election and that hasn't happened since LBJ.

Indeed, Praise" target="_BLANK">http://freidabee.blogspot.com/2008/02/praise-jesus-for-spam-singles.ht
ml">Praise Jesus for SPAM singles. Hell, Flo Joe may just have decided to vote hers self.

FREIDABEE

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 6:54 PM (P)

Well crap, I've never been over here before and used html. Not so much to link to my blog, more to praise SPAM Singles, you know.

http://freidabee.blogspot.com/2008/02/praise-jesus-for-spam-singles.ht
ml

SIGNYM

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 6:57 PM (P)

Quote:
Considering all the shit Bush had to deal with, like the aftermath of the Dot.com bubble, 911, the largest natural disaster in US history and two wars. I think he has done a pretty good job.

You've got pretty low standards then. That's a little like saying Herbert Hoover did a "pretty good job". Recall that Presidents before Bush have had to deal with civil war, world wars, world depressions and all that. Isn't that the job of the Presidency? So now that Bush has left our military in a shambles, caught us in a 3 trillion dollar war, started a flirtation with another worldwide depression, transitioned us from the US dollar as THE world currency, and done next to nothing on fixing the destruction from natural disasters... eh, what did you mean by "pretty good" again?

I didn't vote for Bush in '00 or '04. And I didn't vote for Clinton in '96, once I got a drift of what he was about. So thankfully, I can wash my hands of smegma that has gotten smeared all over DC.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 7:03 PM (P)

Quote:
And when Kerry lapses into his anti-war hippy days when he trashed American troops and praised the enemy that was killing them, how will that benefit the war?

Ah Finn... you reveal your true stupidity. Wars are supposed to benefit us, not the other way around.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 7:21 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You've got pretty low standards then.

People forget that Adolph got Germany RUNNING again! He strengthened the economy, pulled public opinion together, and made amazing strides in discipline!! So, he was a little hard on some peeps, but does that make him a bad Pres-er, I mean, dictator, or whatever he was?

The Friedabee-like Chrisisall

AVENGINGWATCHER

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 7:27 PM (P)

Finn how can you call John Kerry a coward over Bush? John Kerry actually went to Vietnam...you're saying that a veteran has no right to disagree with a war he was in? Are you really calling someone who was in theater more spineless than a guy who never saw a bullet in his life? You must really think those troops who come back without limbs and disagree with the war are real big cowards by that reasoning. I'm not trying to be cruel or broad brush you here but, that real is the meat and potatoes of what you espouse to believe.

EDIT: Finn even Fox admits Kerry had a distinguished military career
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,117706,00.html

When there are no heroes where will we turn?

DEADLOCKVICTIM

Tuesday, March 4, 2008 8:40 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by freidabee:
Deadlock Victim- I thank you kindly for the linky love.

It's best you understand what matters to Texans, 'cause it's remotely possible it could go Democratic in a presidential general election and that hasn't happened since LBJ.

You're very welcome - someone needs to lighten up this dungeon up from time to time.

As far as Texas, Texans, Democrats and George Bush go - well, I can speak for some of the YDD's* still around the Lone Star - we didn't want Shrub to run the Rangers Baseball team much less the State as governor.... and then horror of horrors the entire country as Mr. President.

It was about the time of his first presidential election that I realized that the Florence Joes, Jacky Johns, Carl Waynes and Reverend Deans of this country can indeed be a force to be reckoned with. If you throw the three G's around enough (God, Guns & Gays) - as was the GOP strategy in '00 & '04 - the faithful will come out of the woodwork. Poor people actually voted against their own best interest because they thought Gore or Kerry were going to take their precious firearms away from them.

Keep those Flo Joe stories coming - they are hi-larious... Oh, and i do visit your poetry blog, too.

* Yeller Dog Democrats

KIRKULES

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 2:53 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by deadlockvictim:
i mean, dang, is you is or is you aint my constituency..?

"Thank God your mammy died givin' birth. If she'd have seen you, she'd have died o' shame."

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 4:38 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
Finn how can you call John Kerry a coward over Bush?

I don’t know, maybe you could explain it, because I certainly never said Kerry is a coward. Surprisingly, conversations generally progress further if you respond to what other people actually say, instead of what you wished they had said.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 4:40 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Less Americans and others would be dead right now for one.
Gore's no hawk, but I don't see him bein' an ostrich either.
I just don't realistically see how this world could have been worse off with Gore (or even Kerry (ughhh)).

So basically, you have convinced yourself that if there were a Democrat in office, we’d all be shitting rainbows right now. I don’t know what to tell you, except that this is naïve on so many levels.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

AVENGINGWATCHER

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 5:54 AM (P)

Well you said he was an anti-war hippie who aided the enemy. That pretty much seems like it would describe a traitorous coward, or did you mean to imply something else by saying that?

You guys regardless of how we disagree I really do have to say, this is really the only community I have ever felt a part of. Other show fans may talk about stupid crap, but we are actually smart enough to debate stuff that actually matters and that is completely cool. I am proud to be part of this family. Sorry not normally this emotional but I'm watching "Done the Impossible" and it really hits home and I am sad I missed out on so much happiness for so long.

When there are no heroes where will we turn?

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 6:19 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
Well you said he was an anti-war hippie who aided the enemy.

I said he was an anti-war hippy. The aiding the enemy part is something you added. Some people think he did aid the enemy, and apparently so do you, because you certainly couldn’t have arrived at that point solely on what I said. Nonetheless, I don’t know what you expect me to say, but I'm not going to debate arguments I never made, as if I made them.

Quote:
Originally posted by avengingwatcher:
You guys regardless of how we disagree I really do have to say, this is really the only community I have ever felt a part of. Other show fans may talk about stupid crap, but we are actually smart enough to debate stuff that actually matters and that is completely cool.

It’s interesting how vibrant the Firefly community is. The Dark Angle community, which I was very active in, went down the tubes within months of its cancellation. People stopped caring about the show and by extension about their fellow fans, so senseless flame wars became the name of the game. But years after Firefly’s cancellation people continue to talk about a wide range of ideas, largely because people continue to find a certain degree of respect for the fellow fans. Only a minority of people on this board have no personal identification with the term “Browncoat.”

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

AVENGINGWATCHER

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 6:28 AM (P)

Eh Finn I must be reading more into than you meant, no biggie. I think what really brings everyone here together is the fact that we all actively care about where we are heading. We may disagree on how we get there but at least we care enough to speak our peace about it and stand up for something, and like I said before it makes me feel like I finally have someplace I belong.

When there are no heroes where will we turn?

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 6:36 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Agatsu:
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Yes, it is often that pseudo-quasi-intellectual liberals assume they are smarter than everybody else, which is why they don't know much. When you learn and open your eyes, you'll become conservative.

As a side note, many countries outside the US actually have a democracy that has more options than "conservative" and "liberal", so don't try to pigeon-hole me into your narrow-minded democratic system, kthx.

And Hooray for freedom, but let's take as much as possible of that away from our own people!

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

But here is a real newsflash: can you imagine that almost half of the voters in America voted for Slick Willie? And then 4 years later, almost half the voters again voted for him? Now THAT's amazing. You'd think people would be smarter than that.

I had no beef with Clinton. At least his shit didn't throw the WORLD (and that includes my little country in "Old Europe") into an unwinnable war against "terrorism", and he didn't come up with "Patriot Act I" and "Patriot Act with a Vengeance", nor pull a quarter of the shit W vomited on your once quite popular country and the rest of the world.

However...
I still love y'all.

OK, letting us know you are in Yurp helps explain why you haven't gotten the news.

AGATSU

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 11:26 AM (P)

Yeah, it takes those old European barques weeks to cross the big water to bring us news from the Americans. I was flabbergasted to hear last week that you're not an English colony anymore! First your terrorist attack against Her Majesty's fleet in Boston, now this. Where will it all end? One day you'll think the world is your playground! Ah, kids...

So what news would that be, pray tell? Sounds like it has to be good, because it obviously debunks some of the aweful and ridiculous things I said.
I'm also curious about your choice of quotes from my post, and how "the news" fits all of them. So please, hit me with the news, I'm so ready.

And I still love y'all.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dude, you never wanna f*ck with a Browncoat, man." - Kevin Smith

I think that cats know the deepest secrets of the universe, but they don't give a shit.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 2:35 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Less Americans and others would be dead right now for one.
Gore's no hawk, but I don't see him bein' an ostrich either.
I just don't realistically see how this world could have been worse off with Gore (or even Kerry (ughhh)).
So basically, you have convinced yourself that if there were a Democrat in office, we’d all be shitting rainbows right now. I don’t know what to tell you, except that this is naïve on so many levels.

"Surprisingly, conversations generally progress further if you respond to what other people actually say, instead of what you wished they had said."

Chrisisall

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 2:56 PM (P)

Avenging - one of the reasons, in spite of the snark, nastiness and occasional petty crap that goes on, that discussions on RWED actually tend to go somewhere and make people think, even if nothing is resolved, is that real free speech exists in this tiny microcosm we got here.

Since no one need fear provoking moderation, people can speak their mind, and even the radical extremes sometimes have interesting an useful things to say - all too many boards nothing can be discussed because not only fear of moderation, but biased moderation to boot, and it becomes a game to bait someones argument into disappearance via moderation, just like dropping it down into the memory hole, yes ?

And some folks, although it comes and goes with a couple of em here - try to drive folks who don't agree with them out with pure vitriol and hostility, figuring if they run off all who disagree they can claim "victory" as the board stagnates into eventual non-existence.

Only, we got some real stubborn folk here, who'll dig in and argue back, not just for their own sake, but for the sake of the many lurkers who'd rather not step into the flames themselves to dare posting.

We might rarely agree, and sure there's a lot of smoke and fire and sparks a-flyin when heads of stone and iron collide...

But you know, some damn fine steel gets made that way, and if one can keep their temper (pun intended) one can learn a lot, not just about one's own issues, arguments and the pros and cons thereof, but also about other people and thiers, how they think, what they believe and why.

About the only thing that I would consider a negative factor is blatant dishonesty, because it poisons the discussion, and as a rule, that's a general call for booing and fruit throwin around here.

The final thing that makes it so effective in this, is that one side cannot speak their piece and then FORCE the other side to shut up - everyone gets their say, good, bad, indifferent, wacky... everyone on our little boat here has a voice, and ain't whatever shy about using it.

Might not agree with a lot of em, sure - but the fact that Haken has given us this section of his boat to rock and roll as we wish is a gift beyond measure, and one I never stop appreciatin.

So three cheers for RWED, and three more for Haken!

Some day I'd like to buy that man a round or five...

-Frem

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 3:05 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
the fact that Haken has given us this section of his boat to rock and roll as we wish is a gift beyond measure, and one I never stop appreciatin.

What Frem said(tm)

DEADLOCKVICTIM

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 3:13 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

So three cheers for RWED, and three more for Haken!

Huzzah! Huzzah!... ok that's all i can muster....

now get the f*ck off of my back

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 4:16 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Might not agree with a lot of em, sure - but the fact that Haken has given us this section of his boat to rock and roll as we wish is a gift beyond measure, and one I never stop appreciatin.

I agree with this, though not for the same reasons. RWED is largely a joke. It’s full of conversations and ideas that are more fanciful and unrealistic then probably any discussion anywhere else on the board. The fact that there is no moderation means that real debate is buried under dishonesty and personal attacks and crazy paranoid delusions. But it creates a reservoir into which all the crap goes. Like a filtration system in a pool, it attracts all the those people and all that discussion that would otherwise foul the waters and eventually ruin the board completely. By keeping all the Bush-haters, for instance, in this little room, discussion in the other boards can continue without that destabilizing influence, which allows true Browncoats more freedom to be Browncoats instead of forced into taking sides on political issues or leaving because they can’t get a word in edgewise.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 6:10 PM (P)

Whatsa matter Finn, upset cause ya got stuck in the filter again ?

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 7:00 PM (P)

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

KWICKO

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 8:14 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by badkarma00:
You know, I was thinking about commenting in here on this, but then I read things like 'land a c-130 in a soccer stadium' and, once I get over laughing, I figure, why bother.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

Quote:
Originally posted by JRC:
Hey it was modified, remember? Like maybe 20 feet long! With a crew of one.

Really? You honestly never heard of this, never looked it up? Just assumed that it was BS?

Do some checking around. A C130 Hercules is ALREADY quite capable of remarkably short take-off and landing (STOL capability as it's known). The one assigned the hostage rescue mission was further modified - it had RATO packs (ROCKET-Assisted Take Off). AND, it also had RATO packs mounted with the rocket nozzles facing FORWARD, so the idea was that it would come in low, flare out, drop into the stadium, hit the forward-facing rockets the second it touched down, and stop within less than 100 feet. From there, it could either turn around or back up (yes, the Herc *CAN* reverse itself), load the hostages and their rescuers, and hit the rockets AND the throttles on the plane's four turboprops, and pop into the air, after less than a 100 foot rollout.

The concept itself wasn't even that drastic, and it was proven to work, and work well.

From Wikipedia:

Quote:
A second rescue mission was planned under the name Operation Credible Sport (a.k.a. Operation Honey Badger), but was never put into action. This second rescue attempt was planned using highly modified YMC-130H Hercules aircraft. Outfitted with rocket thrusters fore and aft to allow an extremely short landing and take-off in a soccer stadium, three aircraft were modified under a rushed secret program. One aircraft crashed during a demonstration at Duke Field, Fl, at Eglin Air Force Base Auxiliary Field 3 on October 29, 1980, when its landing braking rockets were fired too soon. The misfire caused a hard touchdown that tore off the starboard wing and started a fire. All on board survived. The impending change in the White House led to the abandonment of this project. The two surviving airframes were returned to regular duty with the rocket packages removed. One is now on display at the Museum of Aviation located next to Dobbins Air Force Base in Georgia.[1]

So, I had it wrong on a few things. That wasn't the mission that failed; that was Operation Eagle Claw. The second mission never actually went ahead.

So, glad you found it so laughable to consider a Hercules landing in a stadium. Looks like the last laugh is mine, though...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 8:32 PM (P)

Just to add to the weirdness, you know who DID pull off a successful rescue mission in Iran ?

H. Ross Perot.

Some of his guys got pinched, for reasons which remain somewhat in debate - and the Gov wasn't too interested in trying to pull em out, so he went right on and got some mercs to do it, cause they were HIS guys and he wasn't gonna leave them hangin like that.

Not a generally known fact, but a fascinating tale all of it's own.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

SIGNYM

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 10:06 PM (P)

I think ALL discussions can be productive if we refrain from behaving like disinformationalists:

changing the topic, introducing straw men, insisting on impossible perfection from the other viewpoint, using ad hominem arguments, "backward logic"... in other words, acting as if we have to win the argument at any cost. The problem is that some people become so defensive about their viewpoints that they automatically bring the elephant guns to any discussion.

NOT productive!

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

KWICKO

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 11:12 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I think ALL discussions can be productive if we refrain from behaving like disinformationalists:

changing the topic, introducing straw men, insisting on impossible perfection from the other viewpoint, using ad hominem arguments, "backward logic"... in other words, acting as if we have to win the argument at any cost. The problem is that some people become so defensive about their viewpoints that they automatically bring the elephant guns to any discussion.

NOT productive!

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

Oh yeah?! Well take THAT!! [BLAM]

Kiddingisall.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

BADKARMA00

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 11:14 PM (P)

Oh.Well. I didn't know wikipedia said it was so. That certainly makes all the difference.

I'm still laughing,

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

AGATSU

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 11:50 PM (P)

This thread has gotten pretty weird.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dude, you never wanna f*ck with a Browncoat, man." - Kevin Smith

I think that cats know the deepest secrets of the universe, but they don't give a shit.

BADKARMA00

Wednesday, March 5, 2008 11:54 PM (P)

I did know that, Frem, for once And Peanut Man's State Department tried their damnedest to stop him, and when they couldn't, to sabotage his efforts.

Didn't work, though. He did it anyway.

Thanks for reminding me!

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, March 6, 2008 1:22 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Whatsa matter Finn, upset cause ya got stuck in the filter again ?

As usual, you're not listening. I like the filter. If it weren't for the RWED, you (for example) would be up in the General or the scif board shooting your mouth off about all your crazy Marxist theories, your paranoid evil government crap, and ridiculing people for not agreeing with you. You alone could probably insult enough people to ruin this whole board. Throw in Signym and Rue and a handful of others who have no interest here aside from pushing one piece of propaganda or another and attacking people who don't agree with them and you would have the Dark Angel board six years ago. But RWED boards provides a scum trap so that the General board and the scifi boards etc. stay mostly clean. People up there, six years later, continue to gleefully enjoy Firefly and other science fiction. They talk about upcoming movies or music and genuinely enjoy each others company. They exchange photos and appreciate being a part of a science fiction community. I know you think this board revolves around the RWED, but it doesn't. It revolves around those people up there in the general board who rarely if ever, and largely prefer not to, come to the RWED. Those are the guys, without whom, there would be no FFF.net, no Firefly community, and yes, no RWED.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Thursday, March 6, 2008 2:15 AM (P)

Actually Finn, where else can you find anarchists (BTW Frem is not a Marxist, and if you think he is one then you haven't met any yet!), Big Government types, Confederates, Euros, and whack-jobs all under one big roof, and all THINKING that they understand what Joss was trying to say? I've been on other political discussion websites and you have no idea how truly unique RWED is. And I think that's a resounding testament to the creative truthiness of Joss Whedon and Tim Minnear.

What was it that drew us to the show? It spoke to us on a fundamental level about things that mattered, things that were relevant. And although Joss and Tim surely put together a greatly entertaining show, I don't think that's the ONLY thing they had in mind. They put a show on about religion and politics! Power and conformity! Economics and honor!

Call me prejudiced, but I hold Fireflyfans automatically in high regard. I feel quite strongly that anyone who's a fan of the show deserves a listen. But what I find disappointing is that although the show drew together some of the most intelligent and diverse people in TVdom, these people... us... have failed to let our collective intelligence spark and catch fire. It could have been a unique opportunity for people of wildly divergent opinions to get together and explore our thoughts. If nothing else, we could have tried to figure out what drew total polar opposites to the show. (Which is still a puzzle to me!)

I feel as if I've personally grown a great deal from these discussions. I got tired of the bar fights and the insults and the dishonesty and I tried to rid my posts of it. Even though I disagree with some people in the extreme... as some people disagree with me ... I've tried my very hardest to try to understand why someone would believe as they do. I do not believe that Joss would be "insulted" to have people come together to talk politics under his banner. In fact, I suspect he would be more disturbed by people occupying a fantasy-land in his name.

But then again, I could be wrong.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, March 6, 2008 2:30 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Actually Finn, where else can you find anarchists (BTW Frem is not a Marxist, and if you think he is one then you haven't met any yet!), Big Government types, Confederates, Euros, and whack-jobs all under one big roof, and all THINKING that they understand what Joss was trying to say? I've been on other political discussion websites and you have no idea how truly unique RWED is. And I think that's a resounding testament to the creative truthiness of Joss Whedon and Tim Minnear.

You’re not the only person here who has been on other boards. I’ve been on and still attend other boards, but that’s not the issue. The question is not whether RWED is unique or inspiring. The question is what maintains it and while many of those who come to this board with no other interest then to hash it out on subjects that have nothing to do with anything related to Joss Whedon may think that it exists on its own - it does not. It exists because the Firefly community at FFF.net, of which RWED is only a very small segment, has remained so vibrant, and that community has remained so vibrant because RWED acts like a scum trap siphoning off discussion that has nothing to do with Firefly, Joss Whedon or science fiction and would otherwise distract and taint the community as a whole.

And Frem is a diehard Marxist, regardless of how he dresses it up.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

DEADLOCKVICTIM

Thursday, March 6, 2008 3:23 AM (P)

scum trap....? give me a break... people will be people - some get all bent out of shape if they face opposition, some thrive on it.. but scum trap...? That's not what this place is to me. Most of the time (when i'm not riffing on Bush) I visit this site and this particular portion (below the fold) to check on current events or to pick up on a good link or two.. And now get your flame throwers ready cause i'm going to say something that has been on my mind for a while now... Firefly is a dead horse... we can beat it till we're blue in the face but it ain't coming back... I have posted in the other threads and have pretty much run out of favorite scenes or quotes from the show - it has been done to death, but down here in the basement, things are happening... maybe not to everyone's liking, but interesting none the less - yeah, so i can be a loud mouth schnook at times - i blame my love of the absurd, but most don't get my humor... doesn't make me want to tuck tail and run... if the shit gets too deep, i can simply shut it off - and there in lies the secret to anything anyone disagrees with - turn it off... (just as some of you are turning me off right now)

Most of us have strong opinions - not gonna change your mind - not gonna change mine - but the discourse is at times educational and informative - and at time down right hilarious...

So please don't label RWED a scum trap - that phrase brings to mind three horrible days spent in Toledo Ohio.... maybe it was the weather...

edit... don't get me wrong, i still think Firefly and all of Whedon's work is some of the best writing that ever made it to the idiot box... just saying....

edited for grammatical errors... are you kiddin me ! I was into the literature.... purty writin aint my forte..

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, March 6, 2008 3:38 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by deadlockvictim:
So please don't label RWED a scum trap - that phrase brings to mind three horrible days spend in Toledo Ohio.... maybe it was the weather,,,

Well, I can’t do anything about your childhood experiences, but scum trap is exactly what I meant. If you have such a problem with the term, then you can call it a leaf trap. Or flapping turd scooper. Whatever you want to call it. It’s that little thing in the side of pool that sucks up the debris to keep the pool clean.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, March 6, 2008 3:46 AM (P)

That coming from a person who just admitted a firm belief that a career politician has never lied to us... dude, you've stripped a gear or something.

Firstoff, I don't argue politics outside RWED, in fact I am dead-set against doing so, contrary to your expressed opinion there.

I've seen many political boards, and many that were not, and to be downright brutal about it, it's not people like me, who respect the rights of folks who do not believe as they - who destroy them, it is people like you, who do not believe those who disagree with them HAVE any rights.

As for the rest, I wanna know what other people think, how they feel, and why, I wanna know what makes them tick, I wanna get inside their head and look around, and get an idea of where all the buttons and levers are, and of what they do...

And for some pretty obvious reasons.

I will say, if you're gonna try pigeonholing me into some box where I don't even fit, you might try to be consistent about it - so far as I recall you have called me a Democrat, a Communist, a Socialist, and now a Marxist, on top of more vague categories like Liberal, Crazy or (my personal favorite) Bush-hater.

Come on man, can't you make up your mind ?

Imma Kropotkinist-Anarchist, if you reallllly want to put a label on it, but people are human, and don't fit into neat little boxes, and maybe you should just learn to accept that.

Or not, but at least accept that it is your own doing when I get to yanking your chain so hard, perhaps if you took a moment from vilifying those who disagree with you, and spent it on understanding how and why they do so, you could learn to yank it back.

But you won't, and that's the most hilarious thing of all.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

DEADLOCKVICTIM

Thursday, March 6, 2008 3:47 AM (P)

well, that's just fine with me... if you want to be referred to as scum, by all means, be my guest - just don't drag me down with you...

as far as childhood - i would hazard a guess that i'm just a tad older than you are - you lil' whippersnapper

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, March 6, 2008 3:51 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Firstoff, I don't argue politics outside RWED, in fact I am dead-set against doing so, contrary to your expressed opinion there.

Because there is a RWED board. Otherwise you would be.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, March 6, 2008 3:53 AM (P)

BK - Part of why he didn't wanna rock the boat is that the State Dept at the time was desperately trying to shore up support for The Shah, and it wasn't workin out too well.

I fault him for that, most certainly, as I fault us for creating the entire situation by propping that dickhead up in the first place, but the Shah being tossed out on his ear was gonna hit us right in the nuts when the Ayatolla took over and cut off the cheap oil - so they were pretty keen on preventing that.

That being said, were I setting policy, and americans were taken hostage, I would engage diplomatically, but with an understanding that if the issue is not resolved with our people back in hand in 14 days or less, we will be TAKING them back, whether you like it or not.

It's one of the rare few issues where I *would* support military intervention in a foreign nation.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, March 6, 2008 3:54 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by deadlockvictim:
well, that's just fine with me... if you want to be referred to as scum, by all means, be my guest - just don't drag me down with you...

You’re in denial.

Quote:
Originally posted by deadlockvictim:
as far as childhood - i would hazard a guess that i'm just a tad older than you are - you lil' whippersnapper

That might be, but unless you hatched from a pod, you must have had a childhood, which I still can’t do anything about.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, March 6, 2008 3:56 AM (P)

Bullshit, Finn.

Again...

I respect the rights of people who do not agree with me - you believe people who disagree with you HAVE no rights.

It wouldn't be me, it would be you, and you're just pissed off that I called you on it.

Were there not an RWED, I wouldn't be discussin politics here at all, but I would still be here.

Would you ?

-F

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, March 6, 2008 4:03 AM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Bullshit, Finn.

Again...

I respect the rights of people who do not agree with me - you believe people who disagree with you HAVE no rights.

It wouldn't be me, it would be you, and you're just pissed off that I called you on it.

Were there not an RWED, I wouldn't be discussin politics here at all, but I would still be here.

In what world would you not discuss politics. That actually gave me a chuckle. And you respect the rights of people who don’t agree with you only if they keep their mouth shut.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

KIRKULES

Thursday, March 6, 2008 4:10 AM (P)

It confuses me sometimes when people here get so upset about minor insults and profanity. I wonder if some of the misunderstanding doesn't come from a white collar/blue collar thing. I know that my boss looks shocked sometimes when I tell him he's a an idiot, and to go f-himself. He works in an office and that type of communication isn't as common as it is in the blue collar world. Every day the younger guys on my crew insult my mother and my intelligence. It's just their way of saying,just because your my boss doesn't make you my superior. I wish more of the young people here would put their self esteem training they get in school today to use in the RWED. Why should they care what some neo-con marxist idiot thinks about their opinion. You'll never know what people think of your rant unless you post. It amazes me how few return after their initial post is trashed. Show some nads and stand up to these old farts that hang out here.

Just another troll scum traped in the RWED.
Kirkules

DEADLOCKVICTIM

Thursday, March 6, 2008 4:34 AM (P)

....old farts, hey, i resemble that remark..!

no, i see what you're saying and i agree, except that i wasn't that aware of the self esteem training in todays schools...

troll scum.. is this going to be a trend?

RICKKER

Thursday, March 6, 2008 6:02 AM (P)

BWAAHAAHAHHA, worst president ever. If he really wanted to win the war there would have been a draft, not this redeployment crap, your times up oh well we're at war so your gonna go back to the front, by the way vetrans benefits were cut again so don't get hurt. and see if you can scrounge up some metal when you're home on leave we need more armor. 911 was on his watch, his bumbling and incompetance are why the economys in the crapper. Lets sign a bill that gives corporations tax breaks for sending jobs overseas, thatll boost the economy. lets attack the only nation in the middle east thats NOT muslum extremest.(talaban {you know the guys behind 911}had a price on Sadams head), hey we could use the money to stimulate the econmy, hey guys we FINALLY got him, wheres the reward.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, March 6, 2008 6:06 AM (P)

Kirk, I might not agree with ya a lot, but you sure make some interestin observations...

Worth a ponder that one is - consider us cabbies catch it all day from the general populace, and share and share alike amongst ourselves.

Down on Cass they call it "playin the dozens", it's a big part of poor workinman culture, busting chops and gettin yours busted.

But yeah, it's a REAL different kinda world, Fremgirl is pretty white collar, all executive and stuff, they seem to settle things with lawsuits that we settle with a pair of tire irons out behind the tool shed, and I often (hearing stories of some awful office politics from her) wonder if ours isn't the better way...

But I guess it's up to the individual, how they wanna go about it, aint it ?

-F

SIGNYM

Thursday, March 6, 2008 12:34 PM (P)

Quote:
The question is what maintains it and while many of those who come to this board with no other interest then to hash it out on subjects that have nothing to do with anything related to Joss Whedon may think that it exists on its own...

Bullshit. To have you say that anarchism and government control (Alliance) and monopolism (Blue Sun) and propaganda and atheism ("You're welcome on my boat. God ain't"), truth (You can't stop the signal) had "nothing to do" with Joss Whedon would probably make Joss put his head thru a wall in frustration. How much pointier would he have to be for you to "get it"? Did you miss, perhaps, Whedon's rather long statement that the United States is The Alliance? Or the fact that he was inspired by the post-Civil War displacement?

I'm gonna be honest here, Finn, 'cause like I said: I'm tired of the bullshit and dishonesty. The only reason why you call this part a "scum trap" is because you're so uncomfortable with whole premise of Firefly that you'd throw it all out. Think about that.

For the life of me, I can't imagine what attracted you to the show. Must have been a mistake on your part.

Oh, BTW- I have introduced dozens of people to Firefly, and loaned out/ bought DVDs for many. I've written to Fox and the other powers that be to bring Firefly back. The people down here are fans just as much as the people upstairs. But you have no problems dissing whole swaths of fans because you've got mental fart going on. Way to go.
---------------------------------
Eh, Too provocative to post. Something about purple-bellies. You fill in the rest.

SERGEANTX

Thursday, March 6, 2008 1:01 PM (P)

As usual, agreeing with Frem, but Signy's post completely nails 'it'.

SERGEANTX

Thursday, March 6, 2008 1:12 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
But yeah, it's a REAL different kinda world, Fremgirl is pretty white collar, all executive and stuff, they seem to settle things with lawsuits that we settle with a pair of tire irons out behind the tool shed, and I often (hearing stories of some awful office politics from her) wonder if ours isn't the better way...

I spent the better, er, well longer, portion of my life in blue-collar land. And now, having changed careers at 40, find myself in offices brushing up against the white collar twits. I can't say one is worse than the other, as I was pretty thoroughly fed up with "arrogant ignorance" of the rednecks. But the "arrogant ignorance" of the office managers is no more appealing.

It is interesting, sometimes, how my perception of their political games is different that those steeped in the culture. Usually, I can hardly keep from laughing while the management types through their weight around, imagining how my old union chums would react to their petty power trips.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

JONGSSTRAW

Thursday, March 6, 2008 2:56 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by deadlockvictim:
scum trap....? give me a break... people will be people - some get all bent out of shape if they face opposition, some thrive on it.. but scum trap...? That's not what this place is to me. Most of the time (when i'm not riffing on Bush) I visit this site and this particular portion (below the fold) to check on current events or to pick up on a good link or two.. And now get your flame throwers ready cause i'm going to say something that has been on my mind for a while now... Firefly is a dead horse... we can beat it till we're blue in the face but it ain't coming back... I have posted in the other threads and have pretty much run out of favorite scenes or quotes from the show - it has been done to death, but down here in the basement, things are happening... maybe not to everyone's liking, but interesting none the less - yeah, so i can be a loud mouth schnook at times - i blame my love of the absurd, but most don't get my humor... doesn't make me want to tuck tail and run... if the shit gets too deep, i can simply shut it off - and there in lies the secret to anything anyone disagrees with - turn it off... (just as some of you are turning me off right now)

Most of us have strong opinions - not gonna change your mind - not gonna change mine - but the discourse is at times educational and informative - and at time down right hilarious...

So please don't label RWED a scum trap - that phrase brings to mind three horrible days spend in Toledo Ohio.... maybe it was the weather,,,

edit... don't get me wrong, i still think Firefly and all of Whedon's work is some of the best writing that ever made it to the idiot box... just saying....

I agree with you that the RWED is NOT a scum trap.
I strongly disagree with you that Firefly is dead & ain't coming back.

On the former...I've learned a lot of things here in RWED over the last 2 years. For one thing I've learned how passionate and articulate some folks can be when expressing their beliefs...whether I agree with them or not, it still is an interesting debate usually. Certainly more interesting and informative than let's say the old Yahoo current event boards where people just used to scream profanities at each other all day...now that was really a scum trap & I'm glad they shut it down.
On the latter, how can you say Firefly is dead? No one can predict to a certainty the future. It may take many years, like Battlestar's 20+ year wait, and yes it may never happen in our lifetime's...but to write it off as dead seems to me to be the antithesis of what Firefly is all about.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, March 6, 2008 2:59 PM (P)

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm gonna be honest here, Finn, 'cause like I said: I'm tired of the bullshit and dishonesty. The only reason why you call this part a "scum trap" is because you're so uncomfortable with whole premise of Firefly that you'd throw it all out. Think about that.

For the life of me, I can't imagine what attracted you to the show. Must have been a mistake on your part.

Oh, BTW- I have introduced dozens of people to Firefly, and loaned out/ bought DVDs for many. I've written to Fox and the other powers that be to bring Firefly back. The people down here are fans just as much as the people upstairs. But you have no problems dissing whole swaths of fans because you've got mental fart going on. Way to go.

Ah, and now you’ve proved my point. I haven’t said anything about your interest in the show, or made any reference at all to your person or your character. I’ve referred to a type of discussion, not to the fans. But you don’t agree with me, so your solution is to throw me out - to attack me. That’s why the RWED events exist. If you didn’t have a place to throw these little fits of yours and hate the people you didn’t agree with, you either wouldn‘t be here or you‘d be throwing these fits all over the board. How many people would you summarily decide had no interest in Firefly and throw out simply because you didn’t agree with them? And if everyone was doing that, how long would the community last? You hold firefly fans in high regard, as long as they agree with you, but if they don’t they can just get out, becuase true Firefly fans agree only with you.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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