Out of Gas: a masterpiece!

POSTED BY: Delvo
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 18:05
VIEWED: 23943
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WOW.

This episode is an example of why I don't like the "x out of 10" kind of rating system for anything. You cold mistakenly give some other episodes a 10, and then there's nowhere left to go when you see on elike this... but then, how far down are you supposed to hedge the numbers for another episode that you also loved, just because you weren't floored by it? How do you measure the difference between them?

Anyway, I'm convinced now the silent space scene aren't just that way because sci-fi fans have been saying they should be for years; taht might be what made JW think of it, but the use he's putting it to is so much more... It just makes them "feel" so much morepowerful!

Also, when Mal was alone and made his way back up to the cockpit, the atmosphere as he worked his way through the ship closing all those doors and wrapped himself in his blanket was possibly some of the most dramaticly moving material I've seen in my life. It got cold and hard to breathe in my living room! And whoever does the music for this show deserves several times the pay of whoever does the music for most other shows.

The other ship's crew's betrayal was predictable, and Mal saw it coming too, but it was clear he had no choices and accepted that. It was interesting to see him make those instantaneous decisions when his back was to the wall, more than once.

Characterization for all on the show went clipping right along pretty well, except for one little issue: JW seems to have an immature, girlish perspective on love/sex/dating/romance. I was worried when I found out this show was being done by the creator of Buffy that this might happen. It hasn't gotten too bad on firefly yet, though. But still, it's becoming a noticible problem with the characters of Kaylee and Inara. Even in the episode when we find out Inara's reason for being there (paying Mal rent for transportation and a place to live and work), she does practically nothing else but oggle Mal and act nonsensically toward him. And Kaylee... why was she even on the ship in the middle of nowhere in the first place when not a part of the crew, and how are we supposed to believe her tastes in men? Doing that scene that way was just cheap sensationalism.

Other than that, though, the only nitpick I can think of is that I would prefer them to have had a line or two explaining why they can't do the obvious and grab parts from one or both of the other craft like the crew of Apollo 13 did. I know it's no great challenge to think of one for those in the audience who need one, but it would still be better to GIVE us one than to make it look like the crew never even THOUGHT of it...

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I agree, it was an amazing episode, and I believe I can clear up one of your little problems with it. Kaylee was on the ship because she was... hmm.. being intimate... with their current mechanic at the time. The ship apparently wasn't as "out in the middle of nowhere" as the backdrops may suggest but rather was just out on the edge of a town or village or what not, likely on the same planet even where Mal bought the ship. As she didn't seem to have any particular taste for the airhead mechanic, we can only surmise that she probably was doing that for money.

--
Funny and/or insightful quote coming soon.

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Originally posted by MoonKnight:
we can only surmise that she probably was doing that for money.

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Oh, please. She liked sex and was enjoying it with a pretty boy.


m.

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Out of Gas was so good, I watched it again immediately after it was over. Wow. The way the flashbacks were interwoven with the present-time was so beautifully done, I hardly realized that there were two sets of flashbacks going on. That's damn hard to pull off. Kudos to Tim Minear.

Having the space scenes be silent (as they should be!) made the noise and confusion of the chaos inside the ship even more dramatic. And I was so glad when Mal used the vaccuum created by opening the doors to pull the fire out of the ship! Too few sci-fi scripts are written by people who understand any of the physics of being in space. (I do sometimes worry about one o' them bullets punching through the hull, but then I'll just say to myself, they have really thick bulkheads, okay? Shut up.)

As to Joss Whedon's (shows) handling love/sex/romance in a "girlish" way, which shows of his have you been watching? Buffy, Angel, and Firefly all handle those subjects very realistically, I think, and I've been onboard for Buffy since Day One. I didn't understand the problems you said you had with Kaylee and Inara. Kaylee was on the planet because she lived there, obviously, as when she dashed off to ask her parents' permission to fly off with a total stranger on an open-ended mission. (Imagine how hard up that family must have been to have said yes! They probably saw it as her only chance. I wonder if she sends money home.) She was having sex in the engine room because the boy was pretty and engines make her hot, and she's clearly not at all hung up about having sex when she wants to. This all made sense. As for Inara, wow, it's like we were watching different scenes. I didn't see her ogle Mal once, and she didn't act nonsensically. She drove a hard bargain because she knew exactly what her presence there was worth to Mal and she wasn't afraid to say so. She laid down the law and got what she wanted for a discount. That's not the action of a giggling girl; that's a woman in business. What I'm still wondering is the answer to Mal's question: Why ship out with them, instead of the luxury liner she clearly could be on? If she's not running from anything, what's her motivation? Is there, maybe, a secret adventurous side to Imara that she's never gotten a chance to express, and she simply jumped at the chance to ship out on something "with a few miles on it"?

I especially loved the flashback to how Mal got Jayne aboard. Bought him right out from under his employer! Mal rocks. And it's my opinion that, while he may not think so, Mal *can* trust Jayne, to watch his back and be loyal to him. I think Jayne's never met a man with anything near the kind of honor and integrity Mal shows, and he's more impressed by that than he'd like Mal to know.

The tag scene was great, too - "you treat her right and this ship'll be with you for the rest of your life" was a theme running through the whole episode, and then we find out the salesman wasn't even talking about Serenity! He's trying to sell this huge hunk of junk, and Mal's already in love with the jalopy.

Fantastic episode. This is what I knew this show could be.

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Originally posted by Zencat:

She was having sex in the engine room because the boy was pretty and engines make her hot, and she's clearly not at all hung up about having sex when she wants to. This all made sense.

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I loved this scene. Kaylee's been teetering toward saintly and/or everyone's little sister since the show began, it was so nice to see that's not the case at all. It also adds a nice little twist on the Simon/Kaylee romance possibilities. She obviously sees Simon as a relationship guy and not just a good lay. Or possibly both.

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I especially loved the flashback to how Mal got Jayne aboard. Bought him right out from under his employer! Mal rocks. And it's my opinion that, while he may not think so, Mal *can* trust Jayne, to watch his back and be loyal to him. I think Jayne's never met a man with anything near the kind of honor and integrity Mal shows, and he's more impressed by that than he'd like Mal to know.

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Okay, Jayne is the one who tracked them down right? That's how it sounded to me, but I haven't heard anyone else mention it. Being the Jayne lover that I am I do hope this is true as it shows that he's good for something other than shooting people and looking damn pretty.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
....looking damn pretty.

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I would have gone with "ruggidly handsome in a hot kind of way", but whatever works for you.

Personally, I think Mal is cuter...
________________

"You still don't get it. It's not about right. It's not about wrong... It's about Power." —Morph-O-Monster, "Lessons"

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Question -

Was 'Out of Gas' just a re-working of the original 2 hour pilot, cut down to fit in one hour? My local newspaper reports that is what they've done. Does this mean we'll never see 'Serenity'?

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Originally posted by Kobayashi:
Question -

Was 'Out of Gas' just a re-working of the original 2 hour pilot, cut down to fit in one hour? My local newspaper reports that is what they've done. Does this mean we'll never see 'Serenity'?

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No, Serentiy has a completely different plot. It explains how River and Simon joined the crew.

________________

"You still don't get it. It's not about right. It's not about wrong... It's about Power." —Morph-O-Monster, "Lessons"

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Originally posted by LivingImpaired:



I would have gone with "ruggidly handsome in a hot kind of way", but whatever works for you.

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Hmm, actually that's just about right, except "in a really hot kind of way."

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Personally, I think Mal is cuter...

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Sacrilege! He's got nose flare. *backs away in fear of having her boyfriend's chest hair dissed*

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Wow. I live in the UK, so I've been downloading every episode of Firefly from the 'net, a not inconsiderable undertaking. But, boy, if I didn't think it was worth it before, I know it now (not that that was ever really an issue :D). This was a spectacular episode.

On reflection the thing I think I love about this show is its down-to-earth attitude. Everything about it tells the story of a workman-like environment, one that you could yourself imagine inhabiting. Take the silent-space - more than just a stylistic choice, it hammers home the idea that this is a real environment, one the characters have to deal with daily. It's not some fantasy environment, where ships go "whooosh", it's real, and it's everyday. The plot for this episode was no different - look at Star Trek when it says the life support is going down. Does anyone remember that ever being as well done as this? In the space of 6 shows (including Serenity), this show has become THE best sci-fi on TV.

And just an aside to all those who fear cancellation, one thing I've not heard talk about is its non-US potential. I've got a good feeling about this show, because a) FOX would be foolish not to give it some leeway if it has the potential to become as popular as Buffy or Angel in the long term (unlike other US shows I've read about that are doing a bit better), and b) those aforementioned shows may be doing better and staving off cancellation in the US, but by the sounds of it, they're not exactly gonna be primetime material, say, in the UK. Buffy and Angel have been consistent viewer magnets on Sky One, BBC2 and Channel 4 over here - Joss' shows and the type of writing and humour they engender are particularly appealing to our British sensibilities (presumably down to the fact that he lived here for a good long while) - it's possible that they're more popular over here (per person, you guys have more people, let's be fair :D), and that's gonna have to be a factor in FOX's decision.

So cheer up - things are looking shiny :-) We got a good show that's performing exceptionally well, FOX have just displayed a vote of confidence by ordering three more scripts, and it's only 6 days until the next episode :-)

My apartment is infested with Koalas. It's the cutest infestation ever. Every time I turn on the lights they scatter, and I'm like, "Come back you guys", or, "Let me hold one of you".

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Where do you download the episodes?

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I loved Out of Gas. It was tense, yet humorous. A wonderful episode.

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Originally posted by Delvo:
WOW.

This episode is an example of why I don't like the "x out of 10" kind of rating system for anything. You cold mistakenly give some other episodes a 10, and then there's nowhere left to go when you see on elike this... but then, how far down are you supposed to hedge the numbers for another episode that you also loved, just because you weren't floored by it? How do you measure the difference between them?

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Well, you could always give it a 4 point scale - Unforgivable, No reaction, ok, and WOW! Then all the Wows tie... ;)

And, if I were using such a rating system, I'd agree with you. WOW!! (of course, I'm very prone to giving 5s on 4 point scales - so WOW, WOW, WOW!!! LOL!)

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The other ship's crew's betrayal was predictable, and Mal saw it coming too, but it was clear he had no choices and accepted that. It was interesting to see him make those instantaneous decisions when his back was to the wall, more than once.

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Ya. This was the ep that made me lose my heart to Mal, who I KNEW I was going to like the first time I saw him. In every scene, he's trying to hold it together, pushing the whole situation forward almost singlehandedly, trying to create options out of thin air...a girl couldn't help but love a guy like this. And, forgive me for my girlishness ;) but seeing Mal wrapped up in the cockpit like that just pushed every female instinct button I've got!

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Characterization for all on the show went clipping right along pretty well, except for one little issue: JW seems to have an immature, girlish perspective on love/sex/dating/romance. I was worried when I found out this show was being done by the creator of Buffy that this might happen. It hasn't gotten too bad on firefly yet, though. But still, it's becoming a noticible problem with the characters of Kaylee and Inara. Even in the episode when we find out Inara's reason for being there (paying Mal rent for transportation and a place to live and work), she does practically nothing else but oggle Mal and act nonsensically toward him. And Kaylee... why was she even on the ship in the middle of nowhere in the first place when not a part of the crew, and how are we supposed to believe her tastes in men? Doing that scene that way was just cheap sensationalism.

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The Kaylee scene did Kaylee a disservice. Here's Mal, who's allowed to love his ship the way he does, but Kaylee (who we KNOW loves the ship intimately), must be a cheap whatever it was that Mal called her. It's slightly sexist - why can't they both have that myopic love for the ship? Why do we have to learn about her love for the ship by learning that she uncovered the problem while lying prone on her back??? Having said that, Inara mooning over Mal is perfectly normal, natural, and exactly what you'd expect from a companion who's emotions have hiccupped over any one male... I totally sympathize. IF Mal keeps it up, I may have to import the shamelessly gushing review!

QT

p.s. - I hope the Delvo review is going to become a weekly staple! Great job!

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Originally posted by QueenTiye:

The Kaylee scene did Kaylee a disservice. Here's Mal, who's allowed to love his ship the way he does, but Kaylee (who we KNOW loves the ship intimately), must be a cheap whatever it was that Mal called her. It's slightly sexist - why can't they both have that myopic love for the ship? Why do we have to learn about her love for the ship by learning that she uncovered the problem while lying prone on her back??? Having said that, Inara mooning over Mal is perfectly normal, natural, and exactly what you'd expect from a companion who's emotions have hiccupped over any one male... I totally sympathize.

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I don't think Mal called Kaylee a "prairie harpy" because Bester told him that engines make her hot. He hadn't even seen her yet, he was just pissed at his mechanic for being a loaf. And how is Kaylee having a healthy sex life, and admittedly, a couple of kinks, make the portrayal of her sexist? But Inara going goo-goo eyes over a man who calls her a whore is perfectly okay with you? Inara's obvious affection for Mal, considering the things he's said about her and they way he looks on her profession, which everyone else seems to think is perfectly respectable, makes me a little uncomfortable actually.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Scouts honor - I'll be back! Great points Jaynesgirlfriend! See ya tomorrow when I'm awake to discuss!

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:

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Originally posted by QueenTiye:

The Kaylee scene did Kaylee a disservice. Here's Mal, who's allowed to love his ship the way he does, but Kaylee (who we KNOW loves the ship intimately), must be a cheap whatever it was that Mal called her. It's slightly sexist - why can't they both have that myopic love for the ship? Why do we have to learn about her love for the ship by learning that she uncovered the problem while lying prone on her back??? Having said that, Inara mooning over Mal is perfectly normal, natural, and exactly what you'd expect from a companion who's emotions have hiccupped over any one male... I totally sympathize.

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I don't think Mal called Kaylee a "prairie harpy" because Bester told him that engines make her hot. He hadn't even seen her yet, he was just pissed at his mechanic for being a loaf. And how is Kaylee having a healthy sex life, and admittedly, a couple of kinks, make the portrayal of her sexist? But Inara going goo-goo eyes over a man who calls her a whore is perfectly okay with you? Inara's obvious affection for Mal, considering the things he's said about her and they way he looks on her profession, which everyone else seems to think is perfectly respectable, makes me a little uncomfortable actually.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Maybe it's me but what is everyone talking about with the googly eyed Inara? I'll admit, we've all been trained by TV to assume that when a woman loks at a man, smiles at him even, that she must harbor some deep feeelings for said man. But this is Josh Whedon we're talking about. Joss freaking Whedon. This is a man who is all about women impowerment in his writing.

Inara wasn't making googly eyes at Mal. Get over it people. She's been trained as a companion, she sizes men up as a matter of course, looks them over and evaluates them, because she's been expertly trained to do so. And why does she smile at the man who calls her a whore? Becuase she has sized him up, along with his situation, and already determined that she has won. The shuttle is hers. Who doesn't like smiling when they know they've already won?

And I'm sorry, but what are you saying Jaynesgirl? I just don't understand your beef with Kaylee's treatment. Pleaase elaborate if you see fit.

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Originally posted by RobertSparling:

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Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:

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Originally posted by QueenTiye:

The Kaylee scene did Kaylee a disservice. Here's Mal, who's allowed to love his ship the way he does, but Kaylee (who we KNOW loves the ship intimately), must be a cheap whatever it was that Mal called her. It's slightly sexist - why can't they both have that myopic love for the ship? Why do we have to learn about her love for the ship by learning that she uncovered the problem while lying prone on her back??? Having said that, Inara mooning over Mal is perfectly normal, natural, and exactly what you'd expect from a companion who's emotions have hiccupped over any one male... I totally sympathize.

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I don't think Mal called Kaylee a "prairie harpy" because Bester told him that engines make her hot. He hadn't even seen her yet, he was just pissed at his mechanic for being a loaf. And how is Kaylee having a healthy sex life, and admittedly, a couple of kinks, make the portrayal of her sexist? But Inara going goo-goo eyes over a man who calls her a whore is perfectly okay with you? Inara's obvious affection for Mal, considering the things he's said about her and they way he looks on her profession, which everyone else seems to think is perfectly respectable, makes me a little uncomfortable actually.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Inara wasn't making googly eyes at Mal. Get over it people. She's been trained as a companion, she sizes men up as a matter of course, looks them over and evaluates them, because she's been expertly trained to do so. And why does she smile at the man who calls her a whore? Becuase she has sized him up, along with his situation, and already determined that she has won. The shuttle is hers. Who doesn't like smiling when they know they've already won?

And I'm sorry, but what are you saying Jaynesgirl? I just don't understand your beef with Kaylee's treatment. Pleaase elaborate if you see fit.

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Sorry this is so long, but I'm hoping by leaving that whole string of responses up it'll be a little clearer about what I was saying.

I'm not entirely sure Inara was making googly eyes at Mal when they first met, I need to rewatch that. But QueenTiye was stating an opinion that relied on the idea that Inara had been so I responded with that same assumption. But my last statement about feeling a little uncomfortable with Inara's affection for Mal stemmed from other episodes. Even if she wasn't taken with him during their introduction, she certainly is now, but he doesn't seem to have changed his mind about whether or not she's a whore. If Inara were such an empowered woman how could she possibly fall for a man who so disaproves of her?

I don't have a beef with Kaylee's treatment actually. Bester isn't the one who called her a "prairie harpy".

BTW, forgive me if I sound at all rude, I'm PMSing like mad.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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sex + money = WHORE! I don`t see why someone would object to Mal calling her a whore. She might only lay nice guy, but everything the good cap`n has said about her has been true. She may be a high class whore, or the whore with a heart of gold, but she is still a whore. Maybe she likes mal cuz he is the only one that treats her like a normal person cuz he see`s no special reason to respect her. And the nice whore is not a new idea, watch "Unforgiven" with Clint Eastwood.

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Please ignore him. Please God in Heaven just ignore him and maybe he'll go away.

On the other hand, I always wanted an arch-nemesis.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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I loved the scene where Mal looks at Serenity for the first time, all alone on the landing field. One can see her looking back at him, the first time I've seen real personality in that ship. Love at first sight...and mutual, I'll bet.

Inside every cynic there's an idealist desperately yearning to be let out, and when they are let out they're usually a real pain and cause all sorts of trouble. --Chris Boucher

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It seems that some clarification is due here about my comments on love/sex/dating/romance (LSDR) in this show.

First of all, the scene I'm talking about with Inara isn't the negotiation scene. It's after Mal has given everyone the plan and they're preparing to leave him, when she interrupts what she's doing to stare at him, how many times, three? And then the "You don't have to die alone!" speech where she's practically having a nervous breakdown at the concept of not being with him again. Nobody else had much hesitation about accepting his wishes and decisions. It's what he wants; her self-interest in this is just woefully overdone.

Second, I'm not complaining about the casualness with which sex is presented, which I know in many people's minds equals "maturity" about it. I DO, in fact, find that attitude immature because it's generally a trait of children to pretend that certain actions have no consequences at all. But I understand that many people in real life and on TV see it very differently, and I didn't bring that up because I know that last sentence makes me look exactly like Loonytoon's fire&brimstone preacher to some of you and I don't care to bother getting into that fight here. I called the presentation of LSDR here immature because the characters' behavior about it is like the behavior of middle school girls about LSDR in several ways.

First, they're about as subtle with it as a sledgehammer to the head. Seond, there's the dreamy, slightly drugged-looking goo-goo eyes every time Kaylee and Inara see or talk about their target men. Third, there's HOW OFTEN they manage to end up talking about their target men behind their backs. Fourth, there's the rush to the end of the story with no development; we didn't see Inara's crush building or any particular reason for, we just see that it overwhelms her life, and we only saw a few episodes of Kaylee's before POOF and we found out the target man feels the same way, leaving those two noplace left to go except to either play an implausible cat & mouse game for years to come or else just split up and go for someone else, thus discrediting what we were supposed to believe about them in the first place. Fifth, there's the infusion of sex where it doesn't make sense. Mal's already got the most in-demand engineer around, and he just happens to catch that guy screwing the only person who's BETTER? Come on. That's just hopelessly contrived. And when something's obviously shoehorned in there when it wasn't necessary to the story, we have to ask what the real reason is... Oh, I know teacher! It's so that JW can preach at us his particular philosophy of promiscuity! After all, his message isn't one we're bombarded with all the time already, it's truly original! I don't have a problem with sex in general, but I see no reason to forcibly infuse it into everything else in life either. That's one way it can become unhealthy and problematic, and, perhaps more importantly to a TV show (as opposed to real life), it's just lazy shortcut storytelling. Sixth... oh, nevermind, five's all I had...

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Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
I don't think Mal called Kaylee a "prairie harpy" because Bester told him that engines make her hot.

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I don't either. I think he called her that because that's what he thinks of a female who has to get it on with his engineer in his engine room, especially an engineer who apparently doesn't care enough about her to ensure that's shes appropriately clothed before he gets up to strut around half naked talking about her behind her back.

And while I don't share the opinion that promiscuity is "o.k." I also am not basing my opinions of the sexist portrayal here on that. What I'm saying is that this episode showed the defining characteristics of just about every character of the show. Someone else commented that this felt like the pilot. I concur. So saying - we learned that Mal's first love is his ship. I loved that scene. While I'm sure I'll never love a hunk of metal quite that way, I can empathize with his feelings. Look how much we sympathize with him in that moment. Ladies, if you will - if your husbands/boyfriends/lovers fell in love with a hunk of metal the way Mal fell in love with the ship, would you appreciate it that much? And yet, we all felt Mal in that moment, yes? Now contrast this with what we felt about Kaylee. Who apparently is so turned on by engines that she screws guys in engine rooms. Anyone feel any empathy with her? Anyone feel like - wow. She really loves that engine. Or did anyone think "She's awfully kooky..." That's how I felt. I'm asking everyone to consider their own feelings, and it may turn out that I'm all alone on this one. But this is what I saw - and I didn't like it.

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But Inara going goo-goo eyes over a man who calls her a whore is perfectly okay with you?

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Yes and no. If I have to believe that she is just hopelessly in love with him, and has no resources of self defense available to her, no. I won't like this at all. But...she put him quite in his place on this issue of calling her a whore, and she'll earn his respect over time. Of that I'm certain. She's that dignified, gracious, and intelligent. OTOH, I think we do her a disservice if we think even for one minute that she isn't subject to the same human emotions that anyone else has just because she is a companion.

SIDEBAR NOTE: I'm an Andromeda refugee... and in the Drom universe, my favorite topic was Nietzschean matriarchy - because it required us to look at the idea of matriarchy outside of our own cultural boxes...the companion idea requires similar (although I don't think as much) stretch...a companion is not a whore, and is not a prostitute, any more than a surgeon is a barber... the profession has elevated considerably, it requires a postsecondary school education, and does not come with negative effects such as pimps and drugs (so far as I can tell). This woman is not someone who has had the softer emotions beaten out of her by one guy after another who climbs on top of her and abuses her. She isn't someone who is working the streets, in and out of jail, etc...she's a refined woman who can fall in love just as easily as the next woman, skill or no skill. And falling in love or developing a crush or any other thing, will bring about the same emotional confusion that it does for anyone else, notwithstanding her profession, and perhaps even more so because of it - because she isn't used to not being in control of things in this realm of(as Delvo calls it) LSDR.

I'm hoping that we learn more about the companion academy, and about Inara, and how she struggles to balance her own attractions with her sense of professionalism. Just a thought exercise -how do psychologists fall in love without persistently analyzing their lovers? And what happens if they fall in love with someone who their clinical knowledge tells them is an emotional basketcase? Do they stop being human beings because of clinical knowledge?

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Originally posted by Delvo:
First of all, the scene I'm talking about with Inara isn't the negotiation scene. It's after Mal has given everyone the plan and they're preparing to leave him, when she interrupts what she's doing to stare at him, how many times, three? And then the "You don't have to die alone!" speech where she's practically having a nervous breakdown at the concept of not being with him again. Nobody else had much hesitation about accepting his wishes and decisions. It's what he wants; her self-interest in this is just woefully overdone.

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Well, yes, but I liked it!

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Fourth, there's the rush to the end of the story with no development; we didn't see Inara's crush building or any particular reason for,

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Yes well, what possible reason can a woman of her means have for having a crush on Mal? None... so I'm rather glad that we haven't been given one - other than what SHE sees IN him...(Jaynesville), and THAT could turn out to be a disappointment... I like that she has a totally unreasonable crush on Mal. See my comments above.

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we just see that it overwhelms her life, and we only saw a few episodes of Kaylee's before POOF and we found out the target man feels the same way, leaving those two noplace left to go except to either play an implausible cat & mouse game for years to come or else just split up and go for someone else, thus discrediting what we were supposed to believe about them in the first place.

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I agree... this could be going too fast...

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Fifth, there's the infusion of sex where it doesn't make sense. Mal's already got the most in-demand engineer around, and he just happens to catch that guy screwing the only person who's BETTER? Come on. That's just hopelessly contrived.

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I had different reasons for hating this scene ... but this is another good one...

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And when something's obviously shoehorned in there when it wasn't necessary to the story, we have to ask what the real reason is...

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Agreed...

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Oh, I know teacher! It's so that JW can preach at us his particular philosophy of promiscuity! After all, his message isn't one we're bombarded with all the time already, it's truly original! I don't have a problem with sex in general, but I see no reason to forcibly infuse it into everything else in life either.

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Agreed...

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That's one way it can become unhealthy and problematic, and, perhaps more importantly to a TV show (as opposed to real life), it's just lazy shortcut storytelling.

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Agreed!

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
Please ignore him. Please God in Heaven just ignore him and maybe he'll go away.

On the other hand, I always wanted an arch-nemesis.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Be careful about that. I once had an arch-nemesis, and wound up being fairly good friends with him...

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Uhm Delvo, you're strange. But the board needs diversity. So hi there.

This was the best episode to date. Well written, great characterization on all parts. And I really hate it when someone uses the word "contrived" in reference to television. Television is a medium that borrows heavily from everything; from music to books to reality, and even other tv shows. You can't avoid being contrived in television, becuase everything is borrowed or copied from something else. The fact that Joss and Edlund can produce and an original show, with as few contrived scenarios as it has, shows that Joss is now and will forever be, one of the best damn people in the business.

You wath the show. You probably like the show. Don't get hung up on the unavoidable.

*************************************************



I got nothing

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Uhm Delvo, you're strange.

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I do get accused of that a lot, but usually they specify how or why!

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I really hate it when someone uses the word "contrived" in reference to television... You can't avoid being contrived in television, becuase everything is borrowed or copied from something else.

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That's not what I meant by "contrived". I meant "too unlikely and coincidental; forced; out of place; not believable as a part of the story; a conspicuous intrusion into or imposition upon the story by something else, signalled by its jarring failure to fit and make sense".

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Originally posted by Delvo:


Second, I'm not complaining about the casualness with which sex is presented, which I know in many people's minds equals "maturity" about it. I DO, in fact, find that attitude immature because it's generally a trait of children to pretend that certain actions have no consequences at all.

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Are you talking physical consequences or emotional? We haven't been given much information from the show about STDs 500 years in the future, but I think its safe to assume that contraception is still practiced. And it certainly didn't seem as though Kaylee had any big love thing for Bester. Inara has apparently been trained to deal with the emotional consequences associated with the sexual aspects of her job, perhaps this is why she hasn't just jumped Mal already...aside from the OMR kiss. But since when are children the only people who believe their actions have no consequences? Just because they're TV characters doesn't mean they can't be immature.

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But I understand that many people in real life and on TV see it very differently, and I didn't bring that up because I know that last sentence makes me look exactly like Loonytoon's fire&brimstone preacher to some of you and I don't care to bother getting into that fight here.

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Loonytoon's opinions are not my problem with him. Its his way of stating them. Your arguments are intelligent and your tone is respecful. I'm thoroughly enjoying this debate.

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First, they're about as subtle with it as a sledgehammer to the head. Seond, there's the dreamy, slightly drugged-looking goo-goo eyes every time Kaylee and Inara see or talk about their target men. Third, there's HOW OFTEN they manage to end up talking about their target men behind their backs.

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In my opinion I don't think that Inara or Kaylee have acted like squealing teens around Mal and Simon, despite the fact that Kaylee probably is still a teenager. But how often have they talked about them behind their backs? Cause honestly I can't remember any that weren't expository in some way.

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Fourth, there's the rush to the end of the story with no development; we didn't see Inara's crush building or any particular reason for, we just see that it overwhelms her life,

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How so?

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and we only saw a few episodes of Kaylee's before POOF and we found out the target man feels the same way, leaving those two noplace left to go except to either play an implausible cat & mouse game for years to come or else just split up and go for someone else, thus discrediting what we were supposed to believe about them in the first place.

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I completely agree with this one. But I've seen Joss and Co. pull off stranger things, so I'm going to reserve judgement on these two for just a little longer.

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Fifth, there's the infusion of sex where it doesn't make sense. Mal's already got the most in-demand engineer around, and he just happens to catch that guy screwing the only person who's BETTER? Come on. That's just hopelessly contrived.

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I thought it was fairly obvious that Bester was not quite the mechanic that Mal thought he was. We heard about Wash's glowing recs, but we only heard from Mal about what a genius Bester was. Mal's not perfect, I can believe that somebody would fob off their crappy mechanic on a newbie like Mal. As for Kaylee, I'm believe in happy accidents too.

Its so nice to participate in a debate that hasn't spiraled down to name calling.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Originally posted by QueenTiye:

I don't either. I think he called her that because that's what he thinks of a female who has to get it on with his engineer in his engine room, especially an engineer who apparently doesn't care enough about her to ensure that's shes appropriately clothed before he gets up to strut around half naked talking about her behind her back. And while I don't share the opinion that promiscuity is "o.k." I also am not basing my opinions of the sexist portrayal here on that. What I'm saying is that this episode showed the defining characteristics of just about every character of the show.

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True enough, but that's Mal's character flaw. Kaylee and Inara both did great jobs in my mind of proving Mal was wrong in his assessments of them. Kaylee showed that she was a capable and intelligent young woman who in addition to being a superb mechanic also likes having sex. Sure, he was kind of a jerk, but not every guy I've had sex with treated me like a princess and I certainly don't think I'm a prairie harpy. The important part for me was that both Kaylee and Inara showed that Mal's bad opinion of them was not a true picture of their character and that their attitudes toward sex did not define who they were.

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Ladies, if you will - if your husbands/boyfriends/lovers fell in love with a hunk of metal the way Mal fell in love with the ship, would you appreciate it that much? And yet, we all felt Mal in that moment, yes? Now contrast this with what we felt about Kaylee. Who apparently is so turned on by engines that she screws guys in engine rooms. Anyone feel any empathy with her? Anyone feel like - wow. She really loves that engine. Or did anyone think "She's awfully kooky..." That's how I felt. I'm asking everyone to consider their own feelings, and it may turn out that I'm all alone on this one. But this is what I saw - and I didn't like it.

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I'm a little confused as to what you're trying to say about this one? Did you feel that the show was making some kind of statement about Mal and Kaylee's morals? Because my first reaction upon realizing Kaylee was doing it with the mechanic was "Good for you, girl!" Serenity makes Kaylee hot, but Mal is so obsessed with the ship that he'd rather die than abandon it. Personally, I think Kaylee's attitude is the healthier one.

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But Inara going goo-goo eyes over a man who calls her a whore is perfectly okay with you?

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Yes and no. If I have to believe that she is just hopelessly in love with him, and has no resources of self defense available to her, no. I won't like this at all. But...she put him quite in his place on this issue of calling her a whore, and she'll earn his respect over time. Of that I'm certain. She's that dignified, gracious, and intelligent. OTOH, I think we do her a disservice if we think even for one minute that she isn't subject to the same human emotions that anyone else has just because she is a companion.

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I agree. Mal's opinion of her occupation is definitely one of the obstacles in the way of any possible relationship for them. As long as there is never a scene where Inara confronts Mal and says, "You're right, I'm a whore. I love you," Inara will still be okay in my book.

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SIDEBAR NOTE: I'm an Andromeda refugee... and in the Drom universe, my favorite topic was Nietzschean matriarchy - because it required us to look at the idea of matriarchy outside of our own cultural boxes...the companion idea requires similar (although I don't think as much) stretch...a companion is not a whore, and is not a prostitute, any more than a surgeon is a barber... the profession has elevated considerably, it requires a postsecondary school education, and does not come with negative effects such as pimps and drugs (so far as I can tell). This woman is not someone who has had the softer emotions beaten out of her by one guy after another who climbs on top of her and abuses her. She isn't someone who is working the

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This episode was amazing, and while there are so many things I'd like to say about it. Time and my job make that impossible. So perhaps I'll simply respond to the Inara/Kaylee discussion.

There is a certain goo-goo-eyed-ness associated with Inara and Kaylee, and perhaps this is immature, but to claim this is not the way adults act is a little ridiculous.;) Perhaps it is not the way adults feel they should act, but that's a completely different beast. Adults often act very immature when it comes to sex, especially when it comes to that particular person that one has decided is "the one," for lack of a better term. Yes it is true that most mature adults understand that actions carry consequences, but frequently, single adults do not necessarily act on those concerns. However, I haven't seen any immature sexuality yet in the show and being goo-goo-eyed about someone does not necessarily constitute immaturity or girlishness.

As for Kaylee in the engine room with Butt-head the mechanic:
I was disappointed with the scene, not because I feel that such explicit sexuality takes away from Kaylee's innocence or her character. In fact the sexuality of the scene was the only thing I found acceptable. The idea that Kaylee is somehow a "natural," as it were, when it comes to fixing advance interplanetary (perhaps interstellar) propulsion system is a little hard to stomach. I suppose we must accept Kaylee as a sort of Lisa Vito from My Cousin Vinny. And that would be acceptable, but there was not enough background to support that and therefore the scene failed. Even geniuses don't magically know what they know. Lisa Vito knows how to fix cars because she was exposed to auto-mechanics, which is her family's principal career option. If I were Mal I think I would have wanted to know where Kaylee picked up this talent of hers. Where was the line from Kaylee, "My father was a space-propulsion mechanic and my two brothers are ... etc." It is somewhat of a fine point I admit, but it is important to support Kaylee's competence as an engineer. Despite Kaylee's resourceful repair of the Senernity's engine, that scene kind of made her look like a bimbo

As for Inara in the shuttle with Mal:
I found nothing disappointing about this scene. Inara's desperate attitude was completely justified. It is nothing but an assumption to think that she feels anything for Mal other then friendship based on this scene, although I think we are supposed to think she does. I don't believe the scene was overdone. Were I Inara, I probably would have been just as desperate to think that anyone I was friends with, whether they called me a "whore" or not, were to die a miserable suffocating death all alone. As for her attitude not being shared by the other crew members, I think that is also an assumption, because the scenes did not suggest that the other crew members didn't feel the same, but simply that they didn't vocalize it in as articulate and verbose a manner. Perhaps they are more willing to accept Mal's authority or perhaps Inara is well trained in being very verbally articulate. In any respect, I think Inara acted appropriately in that scene.

I think the principal attitude about sex shared by the crew members is more a function of being caged up in a confined space for days or weeks at a time. Delvo's arguments about sexuality onboard the Serentiy would carry much more weight, I think, if we were talking about people who weren't forced to live so closely around one another. But when people live in such a confined space, some emotional barriers begin to fall and sexual appeal between characters might become more obvious.

That's my story.

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

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Originally posted by Thegn:


As for Kaylee in the engine room with Butt-head the mechanic:
I was disappointed with the scene, not because I feel that such explicit sexuality takes away from Kaylee's innocence or her character. In fact the sexuality of the scene was the only thing I found acceptable. The idea that Kaylee is somehow a "natural," as it were, when it comes to fixing advance interplanetary (perhaps interstellar) propulsion system is a little hard to stomach. Even geniuses don't magically know what they know. Lisa Vito knows how to fix cars because she was exposed to auto-mechanics, which is her family's principal career option. If I were Mal I think I would have wanted to know where Kaylee picked up this talent of hers. Where was the line from Kaylee, "My father was a space-propulsion mechanic and my two brothers are ... etc."

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Well, she kind of did. Kaylee said her father said she was a natural. Her father who apparently is a mechanic since Kaylee said she worked for him when there was work to be had.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
True enough, but that's Mal's character flaw. Kaylee and Inara both did great jobs in my mind of proving Mal was wrong in his assessments of them. Kaylee showed that she was a capable and intelligent young woman who in addition to being a superb mechanic also likes having sex. Sure, he was kind of a jerk, but not every guy I've had sex with treated me like a princess and I certainly don't think I'm a prairie harpy. The important part for me was that both Kaylee and Inara showed that Mal's bad opinion of them was not a true picture of their character and that their attitudes toward sex did not define who they were.

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We have a difference of opinion!

I don't think Mal's attitude is a character flaw - or if it is, it isn't as bad as Kaylee's. Ok. But having said that, you are right - Kaylee's true character is NOT defined by her attitude about sex, and that's my point. I'll make it a little further down a little better.

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I'm a little confused as to what you're trying to say about this one? Did you feel that the show was making some kind of statement about Mal and Kaylee's morals? Because my first reaction upon realizing Kaylee was doing it with the mechanic was "Good for you, girl!" Serenity makes Kaylee hot, but Mal is so obsessed with the ship that he'd rather die than abandon it. Personally, I think Kaylee's attitude is the healthier one.

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No, I'm not saying that the show was making a statement about thier morals. What I'm saying is that our look into Kaylee's character was unfairly tainted with something that was mostly extraneous to it. Her primary character is her love of engines. We didn't need a sex scene to show us that. Any more than we would have needed a sex scene to show us Mal's love of Serenity. It was unnecessary. AND - even if we look at your viewpoint as the more enlightened one than mine ... I think we can agree that your attitude is not universally accepted - and so we've introduced an element into Kaylee's character that COULD very easily call her into question. It wasn't necessary, and it wasn't fair to her. We could have handled her sexual outlook separately - her love of engines is just as obsessive and defining as Mal's love of Serenity and was sufficient to stand on its own. The sexism I'm describing is the idea that sex was needed to show HER love of a typically male thing, where no such thing was needed to justify Mal's first love.

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I have nothing to add. This is just a great analysis of the Companion trade.

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THANKS!

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
Well, she kind of did. Kaylee said her father said she was a natural. Her father who apparently is a mechanic since Kaylee said she worked for him when there was work to be had.

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I suppose she did say that, but I don't think it's apparent that her father is a mechanic. I think that is an assumption. However, perhaps it is an assumption I should have made.

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

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O.k. brief complaint - what's with these weird icons!

That wink looks like a deranged lunatic, and the tongue sticking out looks like someone blowing bubble gum... I think for those two I'll stick with text icons!

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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"Now contrast this with what we felt about Kaylee. Who apparently is so turned on by engines that she screws guys in engine rooms. Anyone feel any empathy with her? Anyone feel like - wow. She really loves that engine. Or did anyone think "She's awfully kooky..." That's how I felt. I'm asking everyone to consider their own feelings, and it may turn out that I'm all alone on this one. But this is what I saw - and I didn't like it."


This scene made me love Kaylee that much more! As someone who is typically seen as the sweet and innocent one, i gotta say that that is NEVER the whole story. it used to piss me off when people would just label me as a goody goody or whatever, cause i would think why do i have to be one or the other? i'm both the lighter and the darker sides at the same time. anyway, now i'm just used to it, but to see a character like Kaylee on TV makes me so so happy. she is cute, and she is naive, but at the same exact time she really really is neither. just because of being me, i find her soooo refreshing.

whether the scene with the arrogant mechanic was too raunchy or not is just a matter of opinion. she got horny, she found a pretty boy, end of story.

and i'm also starting to understand why her wardrobe seemingly has conflicts in it. she really is bright and colorful, she just wears her work clothes most of the time, which isn't to say that she doesn't like those just as much. he he, she's so cool.

and here's my take on mal calling inara a whore all the time. guys like to mess with girls. at least i know they love to do it with me. the only explanation i've gotten so far is that i come off as pretty unmessable, so it's like a challenge to piss me off. we already know that mal knows just how to manipulate her. in the last scene of omr he immediately disarms her with a compliment. (it ticks me off when guys do this kind of thing, so i want to smack him whenever i watch this). inara has a very dignified persona. calling her a whore would be a way to challenge that.

and someone on this thread hailed joss as the greatest writer in tv or something to that effect. i'm not disagreeing (goodness, never!), but i do have a two cents to put in.

he is the greatest because he's the only one with the OPPORTUNITY and the CREATIVE CONTROL. his writing career is a frickin fantasy.

if movies could be written by one person, and directed by people who don't feel the need to change so much so that it is all theirs and not the writers anymore, both scenarios resulting in inconsistencies within the script, and also if more writers had the opportunity to be taken seriously, there would be countless other joss whedons for us to obsess about. or not even with the idealistic scenarios i just listed, just anything that's better. he is hardly the only one out there with his level of talent. as a writer and an audience member i feel so jipped.

here endeth the rant, not that it makes much of a difference to complain about it. i guess that's why it's only worth two cents.

ciao

- emily

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Originally posted by loonytoon:
sex + money = WHORE! I don`t see why someone would object to Mal calling her a whore. She might only lay nice guy, but everything the good cap`n has said about her has been true. She may be a high class whore, or the whore with a heart of gold, but she is still a whore. Maybe she likes mal cuz he is the only one that treats her like a normal person cuz he see`s no special reason to respect her. And the nice whore is not a new idea, watch "Unforgiven" with Clint Eastwood.

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How is anything I just said here rude? Jaynesgirlfriend, the only time I have been rude to you was on the thread dealing with homosexuality. I will not rescind my views on that subject, however I was innapropiate in my tone. I appologize for that, and I will not hold that thread against you, but if you want to keep bringing it up, that is fine by me.

And be careful what you wish for, I`m currently dating my last arch-nemesis!

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I really hate it when someone uses the word "contrived" in reference to television... You can't avoid being contrived in television, becuase everything is borrowed or copied from something else.

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That's not what I meant by "contrived". I meant "too unlikely and coincidental; forced; out of place; not believable as a part of the story; a conspicuous intrusion into or imposition upon the story by something else, signalled by its jarring failure to fit and make sense".

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"contrived" (from Websters dictionary) means obviously planned or forced. All those extemporaneous defintions you have up there don't really apply. But again, not really the point.

The whole point of fiction, in any medium, is the suspense of disbelief. We write stories about men who can fly, women who can kill vampires, and aliens from other planets becuase we have the ability to suspend the rational thoughts imposed on us by reality. The point of fiction is that anything can happen, and science fiction, fantasy, and horror are the genre's that best demonstrate the suspension of disbelief.

The show is about space cowboys. Read it again: Space Cowboys. Certain allowances have to be made and the coincidence that a better mechanic for Serenity happened to be boffing the current one isn't much of a leap of faith on the part of a viewer. In TV land, coincidences happen.

But what exactly isn't believable about Kaylee showing up and upstage Serenity's former mechanic post-coitus? Because she's a girl or a townie? As I understand it, that town she was from seemed to have a thriving salvage yard and space docks. She could probably have picked up a hefty amount of engineering skills from various shops and garages. And if engines (and apparently the mechanics that work on them) do get her "hot," as the grungy former mechanic mentioned, then she probably has spent a lot of time on, around, under, or very near to engines, in one state of undress or another. There doesn't seem to be a reason that Kaylee wouldn't know plenty about engines, especially engines on rusty junkers, like Serenity used to be.


What scenario would you have chosen that would have better fit Kaylee joining the crew? What wouldn't seem contrived to you? Please post it if you have one.

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First off, I loved this episode. Flashbacks and character developments are always nifty.
Part of the reason I loved this episode was the whole "save the ship in an improbable manner" theme. Mal really reminded me of Capt. Kirk, except I don't recall Kirk ever slamming someone against a wall. Any good guys, at least. The way he acted afte he was shot, I half-expected Mcoy or Spock to show up. However, he didn't lay it on nearly as thick as Kirk usually was.
Jayne was just hilarious. "It smelled funny." He kept the episode from being too dark. River also kept it light with her "reassurring" Book.
Simon and Inara, on the other hand, were just depressing in the first flashback. Of course, "risking life and limb" wasn't exactly what they signed on for. Inara in the flashback was...amusing. Very character-informative. She missed her calling, she should have been a laywer.
Kaylee also was rather wimpy abot the whole thing, but not everyone can be good in a crisis. The whole sex thing? It happened. Deal with it. Lock her up in a room with Simon, condoms, and alcohol for a day. Solve many problms.
"Why don't I jump up and down and wave my arms while I'm at it?" Wash was very...something about the whole thing. On the one hand, his wife was dying, almost dying, whatever. Perfectly understandable that he wanted to stay wit her. On the other hand, he had a responsibility as the pilot to help with the situation, eh, don't get me on my soapbox. What died on his face in the one flashback?
One question about Zoe: why does she get all the good lines? Loved the death-trap one.

Sensou
Hope is the denial of reality, the carrot dangled in front of the carthorse to keep him plodding along in a vain attepmt to reach it.~Raistlin Majere

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Originally posted by loonytoon:

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Originally posted by loonytoon:
sex + money = WHORE! I don`t see why someone would object to Mal calling her a whore. She might only lay nice guy, but everything the good cap`n has said about her has been true. She may be a high class whore, or the whore with a heart of gold, but she is still a whore. Maybe she likes mal cuz he is the only one that treats her like a normal person cuz he see`s no special reason to respect her. And the nice whore is not a new idea, watch "Unforgiven" with Clint Eastwood.

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How is anything I just said here rude? Jaynesgirlfriend, the only time I have been rude to you was on the thread dealing with homosexuality. I will not rescind my views on that subject, however I was innapropiate in my tone. I appologize for that, and I will not hold that thread against you, but if you want to keep bringing it up, that is fine by me.

And be careful what you wish for, I`m currently dating my last arch-nemesis!

---

You have a point. You might not have been deliberately rude here, but its hard not to be a little offended by that many uses of the word "whore" in one paragraph. And I admit I was a bit tainted by our previous experience. But I think your wrong on that being the reason Inara likes Mal. Companions may be considered respectable by the majority, but I doubt Mal is alone in his opinion and Inara didn't act as though she'd never been called a whore before.

Thank you for the apology too. I respect your right to your opinion. Its a very volatile issue though and I think we all got a little out of hand.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Quote:

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Originally posted by QueenTiye:

We have a difference of opinion!

I don't think Mal's attitude is a character flaw -

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Hmm, now that I think about it character flaw wasn't a fair term to use. A difference in values from mine is not a flaw, just a... difference. Its late, I'm running out of words, but do you understand what I mean?

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No, I'm not saying that the show was making a statement about thier morals. What I'm saying is that our look into Kaylee's character was unfairly tainted with something that was mostly extraneous to it. Her primary character is her love of engines. We didn't need a sex scene to show us that. Any more than we would have needed a sex scene to show us Mal's love of Serenity. It was unnecessary. *snip* We could have handled her sexual outlook separately - her love of engines is just as obsessive and defining as Mal's love of Serenity and was sufficient to stand on its own. The sexism I'm describing is the idea that sex was needed to show HER love of a typically male thing, where no such thing was needed to justify Mal's first love.

QT
QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

---

Okay, I see what you mean, and I see where its coming from too. I don't think this was the interpretation we were supposed to get though. Even while having sex Kaylee was more interested in the ship than the guy. I could still be okay with this, that Kaylee would rather fix an engine than have sex. This is something that's stereotypically a guy thing too. If the roles were reversed and Bester had been in Kaylee's shoes would you have a problem with it?

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Delvo: (I think, these quote nests are getting scary)
and we only saw a few episodes of Kaylee's before POOF and we found out the target man feels the same way, leaving those two noplace left to go except to either play an implausible cat & mouse game for years to come or else just split up and go for someone else, thus discrediting what we were supposed to believe about them in the first place.

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I thought Fox was showing the eps out of order. We're probably missing a few developmental scenes somewhere.

Inside every cynic there's an idealist desperately yearning to be let out, and when they are let out they're usually a real pain and cause all sorts of trouble. --Chris Boucher

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Quote:

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Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
Hmm, now that I think about it character flaw wasn't a fair term to use. A difference in values from mine is not a flaw, just a... difference. Its late, I'm running out of words, but do you understand what I mean?

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Yep! Thanks for saying it, too!

Quote:

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Okay, I see what you mean, and I see where its coming from too. I don't think this was the interpretation we were supposed to get though. Even while having sex Kaylee was more interested in the ship than the guy. I could still be okay with this, that Kaylee would rather fix an engine than have sex. This is something that's stereotypically a guy thing too. If the roles were reversed and Bester had been in Kaylee's shoes would you have a problem with it?

---

I started to say no... but then I thought about it, and decided that my answer was yes. I'd think differently about the guy, respect him less if that was how we learned about him. And the issue here is not preferring to fix the engine than have sex! TO the contrary - I'd have liked that in Kaylee. That isn't what we saw. What we saw was Kaylee getting off on having sex next to/on/under an engine. TOTALLY different. And totally unnecessary.

Just my opinion!

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Delvo:

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JW seems to have an immature, girlish perspective on love/sex/dating/romance.

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The word I use is 'kittenish'.

Quote:

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...she does practically nothing else but oggle Mal and act nonsensically toward him.

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I completely and utterly disagree. Inara is a character maybe never before represented on tv: a strong dark woman who lives by her wits and beauty and is proud of it, and who doesn't cringe under name calling, ("whore")and is cool logic personified.

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...why was she even on the ship in the middle of nowhere in the first place when not a part of the crew...?

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sweetie, pay attention! they were in dock.





Esme

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While we are all enjoying our respective debates about the nitpicks of the eps, I'd like to pause here to mention that this thread is overwhelmingly a positive one - starting from the title of the thread, declaring the ep a MASTERPIECE...

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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Quote:

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Originally posted by QueenTiye:

I started to say no... but then I thought about it, and decided that my answer was yes. I'd think differently about the guy, respect him less if that was how we learned about him. And the issue here is not preferring to fix the engine than have sex! TO the contrary - I'd have liked that in Kaylee. That isn't what we saw. What we saw was Kaylee getting off on having sex next to/on/under an engine. TOTALLY different. And totally unnecessary.
Just my opinion!
QT
QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

---

Eh, I figured Bester was full of crap and Kaylee would have been just as happy to have sex somewhere else after she saw the engine, but since they were already up there... Yeah, unlikely, I know, but Bester's comment wasn't a key point for me while I was watching the scene. I think without it that scene would have been a less offensive though.

I agree with how positive this thread has been. I think Tim Minear can be very proud he scripted an episode that has sparked debate.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Ok, I'm tired and about to go to bed, so naturally, this is when I choose to have deep, meaningful thoughts--or more likely, my thoughts are just as stupid as they allways are, and I'm just too tired to realize it. But I diverge...


In reading the previous posts here, I really started to think about the whole Mal/Inara/"use of the word whore" debate. After much thought, I've decided that whore is to companion like the n-word is to black. They mean the same thing in the literal, but the first are both needlessly hostile. True, Inara is paid to be a companion to men, which usually entails sex. That said, as long as it is consentual on both ends, then it is no business of Mal's or anyone else's who Inara sleeps with and why. Just as it is none of Inara's business who Mal choses to sleep with and why. For someone that takes such liberities with morality, Mal comes off hyprocritical when he criticizes Inara's profession on what amounts to as solely moral grounds. Mal professes disdain for Inara because he thinks "whoring" is in some way wrong.

For me, Mal's condemnation of Inara borders on out of character. For example:

Select to view spoiler:

---

...in "Serenity," Inara is introduced to Brook as an Ambassador, which he takes literally. Walsh starts to correct him, saying that "Ambassador" was Mal's euphresim for... and Mal cuts him off with: "She's a whore."

---

(Sorry. I just read the shooting script for "Serenity earlier today, and I can't stop thinking about it. I tried to hold out reading it until I saw it air, but--what can I say?--I'm weak.) Anyway, in reading this scene, that line came as a slap in the face. I actually paused and reread the scene up until that line because I could not believe Mal said that. The utmost contempt he had in that line bleed through the page (or the screen). I realized that if I had seen this episode first, I would not have liked Mal at all. It was snotty. It was holier-than-thou. It was cruel.

However later on in the episode, Mal has this moment with Inara--if you've seen/read it, you know what I mean--that seems to indicate something else. But I'll get there later.

Back to Mal and his out of character dissaproval of companions. I say "out of character" because Mal seems to be the kind of person that seriously disaproves of people forcing their beliefs/opinions on others that don't want them. That was what the war was all about to Mal. Someone forcing themselves on him: political rape. I believe that that is why Mal is so curt to Brook. He doesn't like the idea that the reason Brook is there is to graft his moral code on their lives, however passively.

So why does someone that despises preaching try to forces his morality on Inara through his overt disapproval?

My answer goes back to that moment he had with Inara later in the episode, where for a moment, he forgot to be mean to her. He likes her; it's obvious to the point of "duh," yet she represents so much that he cannot stand. The prostituton for one, but also civilzation. She admitted to him right off that she supported unification. But yet, he likes her. And he can't deal with it conciously, so he deals by being mean. It doesn't make it right. I agree with Brook when he told Inara that whatever both he and Mal thought of her career, neither had the right to treat her the way Mal did. So it doesn't make it Right, but it does make Mal human.


How many shows can bost this level of complexity with it characters after only six or seven episodes?

Whew, I should have just written a book. At least then I would be getting money.

________________

"You still don't get it. It's not about right. It's not about wrong... It's about Power." —Morph-O-Monster, "Lessons"

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I don't think Mal is out of character at all. I think you might be searching for stereotypes where there may not be one. It is very common for people to be open to one point of view but very closed to another. It is very common to find people who will rally to the defense of someone being discriminated against for the color of their skin, yet turn around and call someone else a "fag" for having different sexual orientation. This type of hypocritical attitude is very common and very real.

So that Mal may be against some forms of discrimination yet against Inara's lifestyle is totally in character. He's just a little more complex and real then your typical stereotype.

On the other hand, after reading your post again I might actually agree with you, but I'm a little confused about the "out of character" comment.

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

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I just find it odd that someone that is so against forcing ones beliefs on others is trying to force his belief on Inara. Even when he caught Kaylee having sex in the engine room, he didn't come down on her for it. He's never mentioned it again so far.

I think you misunderstood what I mean with the "out of character" comment, or perhaps I did not articulate it well. It seems out of character for Mal, but it's not, if you accept the coping mechanism theory.

________________

You know, I think the thrall has really gone out of our relationship.

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Mal's reaction to Inara's occupation doesn't seem too strange to me.

He may have been raised in a conservative community where whoring is frowned on.

We already know that humanity has fractured into a lot of different lifestyles. Look at OMR, when Saffron talks about being raised in the maiden's house (I think it was maiden, but the gist is the same regardless).

Mal just may share this particular blind spot with a lot of people. Or maybe everyone else is more tolerant but they're less so on the planet where Mal was raised.

Or maybe he had a bad experience with a Companion along the way.

I like the blind spot - keeps him from being one dimensional - no Captain Terrific here, just a real guy.

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Test Pattern TV Episode Review: Firefly

Episode: "Out of Gas"
Airdate: 25 October 2002

I'm going to be a broken record and say that Firefly just keeps getting better. "Out of Gas" took the bar and raised it another notch. This was a more serious episode than the previous ones and therefore had plenty of drama. The editing for this episode was also a nice touch as we saw a coherent story while cutting between three different time lines. This kind of editting is not easy to accomplish, and the production staff is to be commended for this.

Tonight opens with the crew of the Serenity enjoying a rather boisterous dinner complete with birthday "cake" for Simon. An explosion and large fire ruins the party and has disasterous consquences. Not only does Zoe end up unconcious, but the engines have decided to pass on. The backup life support has been knocked out, which leaves the ship a little short on breathable air. After a few things have been tried, including sending out a distress beacon, Mal dismisses the crew and is determined to go down with the ship. A ship arrives with the needed engine part, but its captain would rather take over Serenity than lend a helping hand. Before successfully driving the invaders off the ship, Mal is shot in the stomach. He manages to install the part, but falls short of recalling the shuttles to the ship. He wakes up in the infirmary surrounded by the missing crew. Both shuttles return to Serenity, due in part to the efforts of the wounded Zoe.

The basic plot may not sound too complicated, and it really isn't, but this episode was made great by the storytelling. The background was broken up into two separate time lines, relying on a flashbacks. The episode starts with Mal falling to the floor in the cargo bay after driving the invaders off the ship, although we don't find out about them until later. The editting was done in such a way that I was never confused by the story. The editors for this episode need to be congratulated on a job well done. We are also given insight into the arrival of most of the crew, and it fleshes out some much needed backstory. It should be noted that "Out of Gas" was the original pilot episode for Firefly.

I enjoyed the "origin stories" shown for most of the characters. My favorite character flashback involved the hiring of Wash as the pilot. What changed between Zoe and Wash in the intervening time? I hope we will find out more about this as the series progresses.

There are many other things to like about this episode. Alan Tudyk did an excellent job portraying an anguished and angry Wash when torn between the two loves of his life. Also, the color differences between the different periods of time were a big help in figuring out where you were in the story. The super-saturated colors of the character flashbacks were especially appealing to the eye.

Firefly is shaping up to be one of the better shows this season. If you dismissed it after an episode or two, I urge that you give it another chance to impress you. There are many good things going on with the show that I hope will continue in future episodes.



"Older men declare war, but it is the youth who must fight and die. And it is the youth who must inherit the tribulation, the sorrow, and the triumphs that are the aftermath of war"
- Herbert Clark Hoover

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Back to the Inara/whore thing: Isn't it interesting how this discussion reveals our own opinions and bias?
Mal uses the word 'whore' in the heat of irony, while bargaining with Inara. He was showing her what he may think of her profession, possibly because he thinks sex and love should go together(an opinion I share)and not as a business deal. I think this is his romantic character, and it's a STORY! He's leading her to possibly come to the same conclusion.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Rhea:

Mal just may share this particular blind spot with a lot of people. Or maybe everyone else is more tolerant but they're less so on the planet where Mal was raised.

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I don't think that recognizing the real dark dangerous power of sex and sex for a living (in any time period) is a blind spot, or intolerance.
Mal wants better for her, with him!

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Quote:

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Originally posted by esme:
I don't think that recognizing the real dark dangerous power of sex and sex for a living (in any time period) is a blind spot, or intolerance.

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No argument there. I was just trying to point out that there are could be a number of reasons for his attitude on this particular issue.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Zencat:

Out of Gas was so good, I watched it again immediately after it was over. Wow. The way the flashbacks were interwoven with the present-time was so beautifully done, I hardly realized that there were two sets of flashbacks going on. That's damn hard to pull off. Kudos to Tim Minear.

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I have to agree! I've been watching this show since it started, and this is the epi that brought me out of hiding to post here! :D
This is my favorite one yet! After watching that one, I know it'll only get better from here!

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Poetic4U:
It should be noted that "Out of Gas" was the original pilot episode for Firefly.

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Sorry, but it isn't. The real pilot will be shown to non Internet people in December.

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Who else here thought that the musical score behind the episode was really engaging and very influencial to the episode's storyline? I enjoyed it so much.

"In the end, we will not remember the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."

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^Rhea raises her hand

The music was wonderful. It was the first thing that struck me. Sometimes there's no music at all, sometimes it's there, but it's extremely good, as are the color differences. The main storyline in normal color, Mal's solo scenes in blue light, the flashbacks in sort of a greeny yellow. Great work by everyone.

The effects were good, too. The whole twisty look when the fire is being sucked out, and the contrast between the fire and noise inside the ship and no sound outside.

I had to watch it a few times before I appreciated some of the subtle stuff, because I was so engaged by the story the first time.

Anybody else compulsively rewatching Firefly episodes?

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^Yep. I have to admit to re-watching epi's. I'm hooked! LOL!
And I love how they had the background music and then sometimes nothing. I think "the nothing" got the point across better then the music. I thought those moments were very moving.

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HAH!!!!!!!!!!

I was right!

Inara likes Mal because he respects her, not her job!

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^^Was anyone disputing that?

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

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No it wasn't. So glad that was addressed last night too. It scarily paralelled the points we made in here, if that show hadn't already been taped I'd swear they were reading this thread.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Quote:

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Inara wasn't making googly eyes at Mal.

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Inara's eyes are just normally googly. I can't look at her eyes; they are so distracting. They make me forget to pay attention to the story.

roj

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Well as this is my fist post I just want to say that I really do enjoy this show. I haven't watched it on TV yet, as I work on Friday when it airs, however I download them quite religiously :)

I think this was a great episode. I love filling in some of the background on the characters, and this episode does an amazing job of showing how real these characters are.

The only problem I had with the show was Kaylee's scene. Now let me explain, I really don't care that she was boffing the ex-machanic. Hey she likes sex, good for her. The only think I don't like about it, was how out-of-character it seemed. Kaylee comes across as very sweet,innocent and naive, which I think is a part of her charm. Now she my have a "darker" side :) However I really haven't seen anything to show it and for the first time it appears for it to be her acting like quite the little nympho just throws me. Like I said, the sex isn't a big deal, but just how out of left field is what threw me. I think maybe it would have been better if Mal caught them in the engine room making out or even if Bester was showing her around and bragging like he was trying to get in her pants. Ah well, she is still a hottie in my book :)

Undeadlord

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Undeadlord:
I think maybe it would have been better if Mal caught them in the engine room making out or even if Bester was showing her around and bragging like he was trying to get in her pants. Ah well, she is still a hottie in my book :)

---

In other words, you think it would have been better if they weren't having sex. So the sex is a big deal for you. In fact it appears to be the only deal. I suppose it's easy to get caught up on the stereotype of the sweet and innocent, which is probably what Whedon intended. However, many of the sweet and innocent girls I know have proven themselves to be quit the little vixens. The point is that just because someone is sweet and innocent doesn't mean they don't like to have sex. Sometimes the appearance of innocence is just a personality trait. But often the innocence is real. You might not be old enough to understand this or you just might not share my opinion, but people can be innocent and still be little vixens. Sexuality and innocence are two completely different things.

The popular assumptions made by society is that sex = bad and innocence = good, and therefore the two cannot exist together, but neither of those assumptions are true. Sex is not necessarily bad and innocence is not necessarily good; it's just the way one is until one has acquired enough experience to understand more about the world. Sex and innocence are related in that they are essentially both about one's trust in humanity to some degree, but that doesn't mean that one excludes the other.

Kaylee may be very innocent and lacking in the experience and that might make her appear to be very trusting. That however has absolutely nothing to do with having sex, contrary to popular opinion. So I don't think the sexuality in that scene was the least bit out of character.

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Thegn:

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Kaylee may be very innocent and lacking in the experience and that might make her appear to be very trusting. That however has absolutely nothing to do with having sex, contrary to popular opinion. So I don't think the sexuality in that scene was the least bit out of character.

---

I agree completely. Kaylee is obviously very uninhibited, but that doesn't mean she isn't innocent and inexperienced.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Rhea:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Thegn:

Quote:

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Kaylee may be very innocent and lacking in the experience and that might make her appear to be very trusting. That however has absolutely nothing to do with having sex, contrary to popular opinion. So I don't think the sexuality in that scene was the least bit out of character.

---

I agree completely. Kaylee is obviously very uninhibited, but that doesn't mean she isn't innocent and inexperienced.

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She figured out how to make the ...do-hickey run. While boinking a good-looking guy. Inexperienced? No. Just young

Sensou
Sweet is love when all is sane
Sweet is death to end the pain
Cruel is death when all is well
Cruel is love when all is hell <-fixed it!

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Undeadlord:
The only problem I had with the show was Kaylee's scene. ... The only think I don't like about it, was how out-of-character it seemed. Kaylee comes across as very sweet,innocent and naive, which I think is a part of her charm.

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Just goes to show you that looks can be deceiving. It also depends on your society.

Jeff
Who survived the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's, and is not too fond of his society.

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Ok, now firstly I've only read *most* of the posts in this thread. There's just soooo many... But I think I need to say why, loving 'Out of Gas' as I do, I disagree with most peoples opinions on two items.

Kaylee in the engine room... I don't think that this detracts from her innocence in any real way at all... If you look at the old-west that this is based upon, there was a lot of innocent sexual playing around going on between young men and women of the period. Often referred to as 'Rolling around in Haystacks' with a bit of a grope and lots of hormones... It was VERY common way back when between small town farmers daughters and the son of the blacksmith or whatever. That's all Kaylee was up to. Think of her as the youngest child meeting a bit of a cuties and going for a quick knee-trembler behind the barn. After all, sexual attitudes have changed a lot over the years. And as for her leaving in Serenity, it's just like Huckleberry Finn going out into the world to earn his fortune. If Huck was female and cute and in his late teens (I still have trouble with the fact that Jewel Staite is only 20!!! She seems older and is AMAZING! Anyone know how old Summer Glau is?)

My second point is Inarra... I don't think she's a whore. Yes, she has sex for money... But it's more than that. She's had extensive training, and I'm willing to bet that 99% of that training concentrated on things other than sex... She's like Counsellor Troi and a Hooker and... Someone motherly and big-sisterly and Wifely all at once. You don't go to Companions just for sex... As Saffron indicated in 'Our Mrs. Reynolds' there are regular Scarlet Women plying a trade of sex for money, but Companions are just that. A companion. You get a listening ear, a pretty smile, someone to listen to your troubles and perhaps offer a little advice... You get a Wife and Mother for a night... or more. To give you a little TLC that is probably sadly missing out on the frontier. Every little boy needs his mother-substitute, and there are lots of little boys in the old west.

Inarra is about as far from being a Whore as it is possible to be. She's more like a Shrink who sleeps with her clients as part of the healing process. I wouldn't be surprised if some men DON'T, in fact, sleep with her but just enjoy the sympathetic ear.

Twelve spheres of unendurable brightness spalled the velvety blackness of space.
The silence on Lester Tourville's flag bridge was absolute
And then the spell was broken as Shannon Foraker looked up from her console from where she had just sent a seemingly innocent command to the main computers of State Security's finest Superdreadnoughts.
"Oops." She said.

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"Mal's already got the most in-demand engineer around, and he just happens to catch that guy screwing the only person who's BETTER? Come on. That's just hopelessly contrived."

Where do you get that from??? Bester was clearly an idiot from the moment he first walked on camera. And Mal knew it, but (it seems implied) hired him anyway because Bester was the best he could come up with. When Mal referred to Bester as "our genius engineer" he was being sarcastic. And to underscore the point, Bester overhears this and says, "Genius? (snicker) Wow, no one's ever called me a genius before!" (duh-huh)

And why are people calling Kaylee "innocent"? She's young, she's sweet, she's tomboyish and she's "boy crazy" (Jewel Staite's own words.) But she's certainly not innocent. If anyone finds finds her sex scene with Bester incongruous, you're clearly not picking up on what Joss Whedon is trying to do with this show in terms of depicting complex, messy, multi-dimensional characters.

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Where do you get that from??? Bester was clearly an idiot from the moment he first walked on camera. And Mal knew it, but (it seems implied) hired him anyway because Bester was the best he could come up with.

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OK, you got me on that detail, but the problem still remains: Just happening to pick up an outstanding engineer because she's screwing aboard the ship with the present one is still obviously just put in there for the sake of throwing in some meaningless sex. So it's still a cheap, lazy, sensationalist, preachy way to fill in a scene by falling back to the tired old you-can-put-it-anywhere-in-the-story default. Sex is the duct tape and caulk of TV; it's used to cobble together and patch over something that wasn't built right in the first place.

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...not picking up on what Joss Whedon is trying to do with this show in terms of depicting complex, messy, multi-dimensional characters.

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Either that, or we're tired of being preached at that throwing sex all over everything equals multidimensional, complex, deep, philosophical character development.

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Originally posted by Delvo:

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Where do you get that from??? Bester was clearly an idiot from the moment he first walked on camera. And Mal knew it, but (it seems implied) hired him anyway because Bester was the best he could come up with.

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OK, you got me on that detail, but the problem still remains: Just happening to pick up an outstanding engineer because she's screwing aboard the ship with the present one is still obviously just put in there for the sake of throwing in some meaningless sex. So it's still a cheap, lazy, sensationalist, preachy way to fill in a scene by falling back to the tired old you-can-put-it-anywhere-in-the-story default. Sex is the duct tape and caulk of TV; it's used to cobble together and patch over something that wasn't built right in the first place.

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...not picking up on what Joss Whedon is trying to do with this show in terms of depicting complex, messy, multi-dimensional characters.

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Either that, or we're tired of being preached at that throwing sex all over everything equals multidimensional, complex, deep, philosophical character development.

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While I WILL agree with you that sex is way overused in general on TV, I have to disagree about this particular instance. For me it was an amusing and unexpected way of introducing Kaylee's character. I would also point out that it's the only sex scene we've seen out of eight episodes, which I don't think is that bad. Particularly considering that one of the main characters is a prostitute.

We'll just have to agree to disagree!

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Originally posted by Delvo:
Sex is the duct tape and caulk of TV; it's used to cobble together and patch over something that wasn't built right in the first place.

Either that, or we're tired of being preached at that throwing sex all over everything equals multidimensional, complex, deep, philosophical character development.

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BTW- I think for most TV shows, sex is simply a cheap ploy to draw in more viewers, nothing more.

That being the case, I say for the sake of Firefly let'm all start having a whole lotta sex there on Serenity.

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Originally posted by kef:

While I WILL agree with you that sex is way overused in general on TV, I have to disagree about this particular instance. For me it was an amusing and unexpected way of introducing Kaylee's character. I would also point out that it's the only sex scene we've seen out of eight episodes, which I don't think is that bad. Particularly considering that one of the main characters is a prostitute.

We'll just have to agree to disagree!

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Well, there was the time with Inara, and Zoe&Wash, and, umm...the other time that I can't seem to remember, but you get the point.

Sensou
Sweet is love when all is sane
Sweet is death to end the pain
Cruel is death when all is well
Cruel is love when all is hell

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Originally posted by Sensou:

Well, there was the time with Inara, and Zoe&Wash, and, umm...the other time that I can't seem to remember, but you get the point.

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D'oh! Zoe and Wash, yep. I stand corrected. Although since they're married it's not quite so gratuitous to show them in bed together.
I don't remember a scene with Inara that showed any actual sex, but I didn't tape all the eps and obviously my memory is not to be trusted.

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one more thing about Kaylee (I know the discussion is old but I just read all of it):

when I saw "Out Of Gas" and the sex scene with Kaylee and Bester I suddenly understood all the better, what Kaylee was saying to Simon just at the end of "Jaynestown". she asked him why he's so stiff and proper and implied here that she couldn't understand why he wouldn't want to sleep with her. I think that fits perfectly. normally she's used to guys like Bester who really don't play hard to get. and now there comes this cute little boy and she'd like to have im in her bed and he seems to "like her well enough" (that's a quote) and then he "goes all stiff" and avoids the issue. she can't understand it and is troubled by it.

and I predict as time goes by she'll learn to appreciate it. I think he really 'likes her well enough'. but he's not that kind of guy, he wouldn't just have sex with her. he's offering more by keeping his 'proper' distance and showing respect. there will come the EP where she understands this and he will know it and offer her his heart.

unless all the fans out there are true about Simon being gay. I really hope not, he's too cute to be 'lost' to the boys. but that's just a girl with a little crush on him speaking.

so you see, you can have your Jayne and you can have your Mal, I'll gladly take Simon.

Idefix

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Does anyone know where I can download all of the Firefly episodes from?

Ahayes@juno.com

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They can be found on Kazaa or at http://versaphile.com/download/firefly.html

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