South Ossetia: Defense against ethnic cleansing, or invasion? (Turns out, Georgia fired missiles first. it was self defense)

POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Sunday, August 23, 2026 15:28
VIEWED: 18577
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SIGNYM

Friday, August 8, 2008 4:46 PM

Or both?

Russia has invaded South Ossetia, which is formally a part of Georgia. However, South Ossetia is ethnically, linguistically, and economically closer to Russia, and most of its residents hold Russian passports. South Ossetia declared independence from Georgia in the early 1990s.
According to some sources Georgia was engaged in ethnic cleansing to prepare the land for immigration by Georgians and put down the separatist movement once and for all.

Quote:
South Ossetia is inhabited mostly by ethnic Ossetians who speak a language remotely related to Farsi. Georgians account for less than one-third of the population....By tradition, the Ossetians have had good relations with Russians and were regarded as loyal citizens, first of the Russian empire and later of the Soviet Union. They sided with the Kremlin when Bolshevik forces occupied Georgia in the early 1920s and, as part of the carve-up which followed, the South Ossetian Autonomous Region was created in Georgia and North Ossetia was formed in Russia.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/3797729.stm

Now, quite frankly my view is that people should be allowed to belong to whatever groups they want to belong to. Trying to impose an identity on a people... whether it was the North trying to impose an identity on the South, England imposing an identity on Ireland, Tito imposing an identity on Yugoslavia, or Saddam imposing a Sunni identity on Iraq... just ain't gonna work. It might be best if groups of people could deal with each other as equals not as "minorities" and "majorities". I believe that over time arm's-length relationships will lead to mutual respect and acceptance, provided that each group has true authority and responsibility for itself. But hey, I could be wrong.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

HERO

Friday, August 8, 2008 5:26 PM

The real question is how this will affect Atlanta Falcons home games and the price of peaches.

Cause its Georgia...get it...Georgia.

The Russian General is named Williamovich Tceumseva Shermonov...

Georgia, Georgia, no peace I find
Just an old sweet song keeps Georgia on my mind.

H

RIVERLOVE

Friday, August 8, 2008 5:41 PM

Russia gets the Gold Medal

KWICKO

Friday, August 8, 2008 5:47 PM

Maybe the South Ossetians hate Russia for their freedoms. Or maybe the Russians are spreading freedom and democracy through the region.

Who knows? Maybe they'll be greeted as liberators!

What's the worst that could happen?

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

KWICKO

Friday, August 8, 2008 5:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
The real question is how this will affect Atlanta Falcons home games and the price of peaches.

Cause its Georgia...get it...Georgia.

The Russian General is named Williamovich Tceumseva Shermonov...

Georgia, Georgia, no peace I find
Just an old sweet song keeps Georgia on my mind.

H

Now THAT is funny stuff. Shermonov even sounds like a Russian tank-general's name!

I just have one question about all this:

What the hell is this going to do to HOTlanta?! What am I going to do for FreakNik this year?!

(Okay, that's two questions...)

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

GEEZER

Friday, August 8, 2008 9:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
...as part of the carve-up which followed, the South Ossetian Autonomous Region was created in Georgia and North Ossetia was formed in Russia.

So if Russia 'liberates' South Ossetia, are they going to let it combine with their North Ossetia into the independent nation of Greater Ossetia?

Even more importantly, if Russia decides to keep going and invade Georgia proper, will the US come to Georgia's defense? Seems like a shame that we spent all that time and effort building a military specifically to take on the Russians, and never got a chance to use it. Maybe redemption is at hand.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

KWICKO

Friday, August 8, 2008 10:52 PM

Quote:
Seems like a shame that we spent all that time and effort building a military specifically to take on the Russians, and never got a chance to use it. Maybe redemption is at hand.

We DID use it; in fact, we still are. Just not against the Russians. We depleted our massive military might against people with rocks and roadside bombs. 5.5 years later, they still haven't recognized our policy of "peace through superior firepower".

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

GEEZER

Saturday, August 9, 2008 12:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
We DID use it; in fact, we still are. Just not against the Russians. We depleted our massive military might against people with rocks and roadside bombs. 5.5 years later, they still haven't recognized our policy of "peace through superior firepower".

Just for once, in a completely unrelated to Iraq thread, can't you give it a rest?

Probably not.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

KWICKO

Saturday, August 9, 2008 2:08 PM

Just pointing out that much of that enormous military that we built to "take on the Russians" has indeed been used, but as usual, it didn't happen in the way we expected and built for.

I'll be very interested to see what Russia does from this point, and how the U.S. reacts.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 9, 2008 4:22 PM

From what I gather, South Oessetians have chosne to be part of Russia since days of yore (earlier than 1870).

I'm surprised that nobody said If you think people should be able to be part of any group they want, why are you so bothered by "illegal" immigration?" And indeed, I haven't been able to reconcile that gap.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

MIIKE

Saturday, August 9, 2008 4:31 PM

been watching the events unfold on tv and its real scary whats happening as georgia wants to be a nato country, this means that we the uk and the U.S will be obliged to help georgia if russia continue to attack ,this could be the start of a world war 3 or i may be over exaggerating not sure .all the best miike

October 12th, 1985. Dog carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach. This city is afraid of me. I have seen its true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown.

KHYRON

Saturday, August 9, 2008 4:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm surprised that nobody said If you think people should be able to be part of any group they want, why are you so bothered by "illegal" immigration?" And indeed, I haven't been able to reconcile that gap.

In the context of this thread, I'd say the former implies some sort of political consensus among the populace that they don't want to belong to country A anymore, they'd rather either be an independent country or part of a neighbouring country B. If it's the former, they should go for it. If it's the latter, then as long as country B is alright with it, they should go for it. Illegal immigration, on the other hand, is a bunch of individuals entering a country without that country's consent.

------------------------------

This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

GEEZER

Monday, August 11, 2008 12:26 AM

So, not content with 'liberating' South Ossetia, Russia is now continuing to attack Georgia, which has an army of 26,000: with 82 tanks, 137 APCs, 7 aircraft, and 95 pieces of heavy artillery. Russia's got an army of 641,000: with 6717 tanks, 6388 APCs, 1206 aircraft, and 7550 pieces of heavy artillery.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7552908.stm

The population of Georgia is about one third the population of Moscow, or 3% of the population of Russia.

Looks like Russia can change its political system, but can't quite get rid of the empire thing.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

KWICKO

Monday, August 11, 2008 3:48 AM

Just wait 'til they get to Serenity Valley... I'm thinkin' the Georgians might do the impossible, and that will make them mighty.

Or they could get wiped out to the last man.

What I'm wondering is, where does this leave the U.S.? We've been supporting Georgia's bid to join NATO, but we've also been trying to play nice with the Russkies. So what do WE do now? Take a side? Sit it out? Depend on the [GASP!] UN?!

Beats the shit outta me...

M

JAYNEZTOWN

Monday, August 11, 2008 12:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Just wait 'til they get to Serenity Valley... I'm thinkin' the Georgians might do the impossible, and that will make them mighty.

Or they could get wiped out to the last man.

What I'm wondering is, where does this leave the U.S.? We've been supporting Georgia's bid to join NATO, but we've also been trying to play nice with the Russkies. So what do WE do now? Take a side? Sit it out? Depend on the [GASP!] UN?!

Beats the shit outta me...

M

For me this boils down on 2 factors

1Russians are still commie A-holes
Russia is flexing its muscles, they have been politically butting heads with Georgia for some time. Georgia with its small army is no match for the large numbers of Russian troops. every time the USA tries to install missile defense against Iran the paranoid Russians think we are trying to check them.
USA could try going into Black sea and try policing the area but the Army and Marine Corps are very stretched from two current wars, troops need their hospital bills taken care of and US forces need to be re-built to their former strength. This is Russia's backyard, a run of Subs, Backfires with supersonic cruise missiles and MIG-29s would unleash more power than even our best AEGIS cruisers can take care of.
This would make the most violent US losses in Iraq look tame, yes we might come off better but its not wise to back a Nuclear armed Russia and former Superpower into the corner. President Medvedev called for "liberation" of the people but my guess is the real guy pulling the strings is Vladimir Putin a KGB man who sees paranoia and conspiracies everywhere.

The second factor I think it boils down to is
2USA mismanagement of their Georgia relationship like their Iraq disaster these past years. Remember we used to support Iraq at one time against Iran etc
Similar to Iraq muddle, Georgia is a mess of a different bunch of cultures and ethnic peoples and we never considered this.
The former USSR and Georgian nationalists might have kept a lid on culture clashes but the possible only solution is a three-state system like the proposed idea of breaking Iraq into 3 : Kurd North, Sunni, Shite etc.
In Georgia you got Abkhaz peoples and Ossetians etc who all want their independence but both Russia and Georgia lay claim over them. I suspect one of the big loser will be the people's crying for independence no matter who wins.
President Bush backed Georgia against Russia some months ago, but he should have made his position clearer.
The Georgia leader Saakashvili is a bit of a loon and took the Bush statement as a guarantee the USA will jump into a fight no matter what. Bush should have made his statement clear and said something like "This doesn't mean you can kick a sleeping Bear in the Balls and expect us to support you"
Frankly Georgia was a bit f**king stupid to pick a fight with the Bear, they are outclassed and out gunned (PS Georgians are out of position and mostly stationed in Iraq helping the Bush war on terror) . They and their little army of a few thousand will have a fight with 30,000 Russian tanks and over 1500 3rd generation fighter aircraft
Ossetia and the Abkhazia people want independence but this will never be internationally recognized because of BS politics on both sides.
the USA has its own troubles right now and ain't keen on getting dragged into another f**cking war.

Once Georgia/Russia pipelines get hit, I expect Oil to skyrocket and the US dollar to take some nasty hits on the financial market.

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, August 11, 2008 2:09 PM

I have some suspicions.

Look at the geographical positioning of Georgia, and potential supply routes for their support of middle east allies - and tell me it does not occur to you that this particular set of events might have been "helped along" by certain someones intelligence people ?

There's little if any evidence of that, but just sayin it's awfully damned convenient.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

KWICKO

Monday, August 11, 2008 2:38 PM

It has already been pointed out by the State Department to the Georgian leadership that they are NOT a full member of NATO - at least not yet - so we are under no OFFICIAL obligation to help them out. And yeah, we don't really want to go poking the bear in his own cage.

Gonna be an interesting few weeks, I think. They've been saying that this could be a worst-case scenario, with a desperate and nuclear-armed Georgia facing off against insurmountable odds and a nuclear-armed Russia. Hold on to your hats; it could be a bumpy ride!

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

CHRISISALL

Monday, August 11, 2008 3:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Hold on to your hats; it could be a bumpy ride!

PARTICIPANT

Monday, August 11, 2008 3:49 PM

more conspiracies
http://jonnyfrag.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/pattern-of-exercises/

Quote:
Pattern of Exercises

Despite efforts to downplay it in the US media, there is a very dramatic war that has broken out between Georgia and Russia. Reports are coming out now (via the Russian news media) that perhaps American soldiers and/or Mercs (Blackwater) are on the ground ‘advising’, some ‘advising’ to their deaths. Well that sounds like it might be true or just as easily Russian propaganda, on the face of it anyway.

If you go back just a little bit you will see that last month American forces participated in an exercise with Georgia practicing the scenario that is currently unfolding. It was important enough to warrant a visit from Condi Rice to Georgia even (wonder if she got on the plane thinking she was going to the southern state…)

What of it, you might ask. If you look at recent history, there have been two other times widely known that an event of import was practiced just before or DURING the actual event. The two events I am speaking of are Sep 11, 2001 and the 7/7 bombings in London. Both of these events were being practiced (planned months ahead of time) when they actually started. In the case of the 7/7 bombings, an interview was shown with one of the coordinators of the exercise saying ‘We were practicing this at the exact locations so when it happened for real, we had to shift into real world mode right away.’

Of course I am sure this is ALL coincidence, right?

SIGNYM

Monday, August 11, 2008 4:08 PM

Huh. Well, lotsa stuff I didn't know about came up in this thread. Needs some research.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

HERO

Monday, August 11, 2008 5:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
There's little if any evidence of that...

And thats more then you ever seem to need.

H

KWICKO

Monday, August 11, 2008 5:44 PM

...and all YOU'VE ever needed, "Hero", was, "Well, Bush says..."

JAYNEZTOWN

Monday, August 11, 2008 5:50 PM

Georgia to withdraw all of its troops from Iraq
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Georgia_to_withdraw_all_of_its_troops_
from_Iraq_999.html

Russian forces swept across Georgia on Monday, capturing the town of Gori and moving to within 35 miles of the capital city Tbilisi, FOX News confirmed.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,401243,00.html

Georgian president runs for cover
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554417.stm

U.S. military aircraft bring 800 Georgian troops home from Iraq
MOSCOW, August 11 RIA Novosti
http://en.rian.ru/world/20080811/115956220.html

HERO

Monday, August 11, 2008 8:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Even more importantly, if Russia decides to keep going and invade Georgia proper, will the US come to Georgia's defense?

Unfortunately Georgia's NATO membership card got lost in the mail.

We did ship their 2,000 troops back home from Iraq on US transports and hopefully with a couple spare magazines for their shiny new M16's.

Georgia has about 18,000 troops in 5 Infantry Brigades and assorted support units. Their Air Force has a squadron of SU-25s and a handfull of 3rd rate Fighters. Russia devoted an entire Army which is organized like an American Corps with 2-4 Motorized Rifle Divisions and a Tank Division...as many as 100,000 men and probably a Wing of fighter and fighter-bombers for support.

Given today's news Russia is taking the opportunity to 'liberate' the whole country and its oil pipeline now since next year Georgia was expected to get NATO membership.

H

KWICKO

Monday, August 11, 2008 9:07 PM

Dang, if only there were some terrorists - er, I mean mujahideen - that we could get to act as our proxies and fight those dastardly Rooskies. But according to the right, we've pretty much already killed them all...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

GEEZER

Monday, August 11, 2008 9:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Given today's news Russia is taking the opportunity to 'liberate' the whole country and its oil pipeline now since next year Georgia was expected to get NATO membership.

H

Yep. Starting to look like Russia wants to protect its European oil monopoly, and isn't above killing a lot of Georgians to do so. It'll be interesting to see if they can get away with such actions without the bleeding hearts screaming "NO BLOOD FOR OIL!!" Bet we won't hear a peep.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CHRISISALL

Monday, August 11, 2008 9:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Starting to look like Russia wants to protect its European oil monopoly, and isn't above killing a lot of Georgians to do so. It'll be interesting to see if they can get away with such actions without the bleeding hearts screaming "NO BLOOD FOR OIL!!" Bet we won't hear a peep.

I'm not a bleeding heart, but I'll say it to make ya happy- The Russian government SUCKS!!! The timing is no coincidence, obviously.

Callin' it Chrisisall

KHYRON

Monday, August 11, 2008 10:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Given today's news Russia is taking the opportunity to 'liberate' the whole country and its oil pipeline now since next year Georgia was expected to get NATO membership.

Yeah, this seems to sum up the situation pretty well, unfortunately.

------------------------------

This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

OUT2THEBLACK

Monday, August 11, 2008 11:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I have some suspicions.

Look at the geographical positioning of Georgia, and potential supply routes for their support of middle east allies - and tell me it does not occur to you that this particular set of events might have been "helped along" by certain someones intelligence people ?

There's little if any evidence of that, but just sayin it's awfully damned convenient.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

Well , little evidence apart from yesterday's news :

http://www.presstv.com/Detail.aspx?id=66203§ionid=351020202

Actual 'mileage' may vary , depending upon user habits...

Here's a view that comes as no particular surprise , from a related article :

" Washington backed the 'Rose Revolution' that paved the way for Saakashvili's rise to power. For his part, Saakashvili agreed on hosting the Baku-Ceyhan pipeline, which has been designed to transport energy resources from the Caspian Basin to the Mediterranean, while bypassing Russia. "

http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=66206§ionid=3510303

And , on the U.S. transport of battle-hardened Georgian troops from Iraq :

" Russian Premier Vladimir Putin said sending the Georgian troops from Iraq would not change the situation and the US is hampering the peacekeeping operation in South Ossetia. "

' It's a pity that some of our partners instead of helping are trying to get in the way, I mean the United States using its military transport aircraft to relocate Georgia's military contingent from Iraq virtually to the conflict zone, among other things," said Putin.'

http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=66322§ionid=351020606

OUT2THEBLACK

Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:28 AM

Says here the Baku-Ceyhan pipeline fire , caused by a 'blast' , has been put out :

http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=66325§ionid=351020204

And , not to worry , " tomorrow's " news says more Federal Reserve Notes are on the way to help the afflicted :

http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=66333§ionid=351020606

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, August 12, 2008 1:26 AM

Meh, I said suspicions, and that is what I meant - unlike wingnuts of any stripe, I never get the two confused.

To date, I've not really seen enough evidence to say this set of events was helped along by anyone, but it would explain the rather bizarre and coincidental timing, is all.

If the Georgians have any sense at all they won't try to pull off a toe to toe stand hoping the rest of the world will bail them out, the rest of the world is rather good at not keeping promises like that, explicit or implied - they'd be better off sucking them in and bleeding them white like the Mujas did in Afghanistan.

Any way you slice it though, this is gonna be ugly, sure.

And to be perhaps a bit crass, it ain't OUR fekkin problem, nor should we waste our resources on it, we're stretched thin enough as it is trying to play global dominion when we got a shitload of problems at home needing to be addressed.

We needs be solving OUR problems before worrying about anyone elses, dammit.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, August 12, 2008 1:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

And to be perhaps a bit crass, it ain't OUR fekkin problem

Yeah, but are we downwind?

Radsisall

KWICKO

Tuesday, August 12, 2008 1:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Meh, I said suspicions, and that is what I meant - unlike wingnuts of any stripe, I never get the two confused.

To date, I've not really seen enough evidence to say this set of events was helped along by anyone, but it would explain the rather bizarre and coincidental timing, is all.

If the Georgians have any sense at all they won't try to pull off a toe to toe stand hoping the rest of the world will bail them out, the rest of the world is rather good at not keeping promises like that, explicit or implied - they'd be better off sucking them in and bleeding them white like the Mujas did in Afghanistan.

Any way you slice it though, this is gonna be ugly, sure.

And to be perhaps a bit crass, it ain't OUR fekkin problem, nor should we waste our resources on it, we're stretched thin enough as it is trying to play global dominion when we got a shitload of problems at home needing to be addressed.

We needs be solving OUR problems before worrying about anyone elses, dammit.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

Which adds to the "coincidental" timing, don't you think? Russia did state quite clearly that if we insisted on putting our missile defense system in the Czech Republic, they'd have no alternative but a military one - they just didn't happen to say WHERE that military option might be exercised...

Add to that the fact that Georgia is NOT part of NATO, so there's no real obligation on our part to come to their rescue.

And add to THAT the fact that we are, as you said, stretched thin at the moment - which of course the Russians can't help but be aware of. For them, this must've looked like their perfect moment.

And you're right - the only real chance the Georgians have at this point is to try to suck the Russians in and bleed them slowly, and hope they don't have the stomach for another long, drawn out occupation.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

JAYNEZTOWN

Friday, August 15, 2008 8:47 AM

300 gather at UN to protest Russian forces in Georgia

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-nygeor155802042aug15,0,30
40066.story

On the flip side:

Foxnews interview backfires?

12 year old Georgian girl thanks Russians for saving her family

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, August 15, 2008 12:08 PM

Man, Russian reporters are some tough folks.

Catches a round (just a graze though) and instead of running away, jacks on a set of armor and keeps reporting.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/14/vo.gerogia.journalis
t.shot.gerogiastatetv
(Stupid link runs a 30 second ad first, sorry)

An american journalist team would have hauled ass at the mere sound of gunfire.

-F

JONGSSTRAW

Friday, August 15, 2008 12:23 PM

The whole world now is stinking with the stench of Liberal Appeasement. It reeks out of all the current events of the day. Limp-wristed European-influenced IOC decision to give un-worthy China the Olympic Games (I guess Nazi Germany wasn't available this time)...what a joke!
European appeasement of Russia solely for oil supply allows Russia to go back to the good 'ole KGB USSR days. European appeasement of Russia that has prevented Georgia & Ukraine from joining NATO; whatcha gonna do now Europe? Watch all the new democracies in Eastern Europe fall back under the Iron Curtain? Their appeasement has really come back to roost right on their front door.

JAYNEZTOWN

Friday, August 15, 2008 12:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by participant:

Pattern of Exercises

perhaps American soldiers and/or Mercs (Blackwater) are on the ground ‘advising’, some ‘advising’ to their deaths.

Will McCain say where that lobby money came from? Obama take a page from the book of Donald "Dr.Stranglove" Rumsfield ?
This whole fiasco has seriously blackened the reputation and diminished the power of the US and if it were not for the ongoing Iraq mess the US would be way more respected around the world.

Here's more on the reports of mercenaries and advisers

http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2008/8/11/2572/15085
Blackwater in Georgia? Now We Can Call Them Mercs.

Reports are also out Rove Met with the Georgian President and Israel advisers took part in Attack on S. Ossetia. Georgian president commissioned from private Israeli firms hundreds of military advisers, to train them in artillery and combat tactics.

Unfortunately some of these tactics involved the bombing of civilian areas and the bombing of an area where 90% of the people held Russian passports

No doubt Russia is communist and oppressive
but the homeland of Stalin
the homeland of Georgia is the first sinner, they were aggressors bombing a civilian area
was Saakashvili so stupid as not to think Russia would respond
and Saakashvili needs his butt handed to him.

Related?
Poland, U.S. sign missile shield deal
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/15/poland.us.shield/index.
html

and now the political mud slinging
Lieberman Blasts Obama Over Georgia
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,403622,00.html

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I have some suspicions.

Look at the geographical positioning of Georgia, and potential supply routes for their support of middle east allies - and tell me it does not occur to you that this particular set of events might have been "helped along" by certain someones intelligence people ?

There's little if any evidence of that, but just sayin it's awfully damned convenient.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

Oil is like the devils juice
it makes governments do insane things

KWICKO

Friday, August 15, 2008 4:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
The whole world now is stinking with the stench of Liberal Appeasement. It reeks out of all the current events of the day. Limp-wristed European-influenced IOC decision to give un-worthy China the Olympic Games (I guess Nazi Germany wasn't available this time)...what a joke!
European appeasement of Russia solely for oil supply allows Russia to go back to the good 'ole KGB USSR days. European appeasement of Russia that has prevented Georgia & Ukraine from joining NATO; whatcha gonna do now Europe? Watch all the new democracies in Eastern Europe fall back under the Iron Curtain? Their appeasement has really come back to roost right on their front door.

Yup, and throw into that mix American (via Bush) "appeasement" of Iraq ("It's not a timeline, it's a... time horizon..."), Iran, and now both Georgia ("We're on your side!") AND Russia ("We're not taking sides!") all at the same time.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

SIGNYM

Friday, August 15, 2008 7:40 PM

It's not as cut-and-dried as you think.

Hubby grew up in communist Hungary. His mom's side of the family were villagers: farmers and miners, "common folk". In fact, his mom worked as a governness for a noble family which had honest-to-god serfs, evil overseer with whip and all.

His dad's side of the family were aspiring/ disappointed dukes and duchesses. The kind of people who had gold toilets. One half of the family was very happy with communism, the other half was not.

The Hungarian uprising was in part fomented by the VOA's constant barrage of propaganda. The people who took part in it were not only students, but also con-men, ex-nobility, and leftover fascists from WWI. Hubby recalls several "moles" in the uprising's side who were hung from lamposts and killed by razor-blade cuts. (The old fascists really knew how to make people suffer.) Many people were glad to see the Russians roll in.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, August 15, 2008 10:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
The whole world now is stinking with the stench of Liberal Appeasement. It reeks out of all the current events of the day. Limp-wristed European-influenced IOC decision to give un-worthy China the Olympic Games (I guess Nazi Germany wasn't available this time)...what a joke!
European appeasement of Russia solely for oil supply allows Russia to go back to the good 'ole KGB USSR days. European appeasement of Russia that has prevented Georgia & Ukraine from joining NATO; whatcha gonna do now Europe? Watch all the new democracies in Eastern Europe fall back under the Iron Curtain? Their appeasement has really come back to roost right on their front door.

Appeasement is right, but this oil thing has become a cliché. Every time something happens in the world people blame it on oil without even bothering to think it through. Georgia is not an oil rich country. Russia is not invading Georgia for oil at least not solely or explicitly, but Russia is also not invading Georgia for the humanitarian issue they dreamed up, which Moscow couldn’t care less about. This is what we call an act for incremental increase in influence. Russia is making a veiled threat to the world.

Russia wants to maintain or re-institute, if not direct control of breakaway Russian Republics then a hegemony, which is threatened by NATO. In other words, NATO as an equal or superior military power can provide the means (membership) by which breakaway Russian Republicans like Georgia and the Ukraine can finally become independent of Russia hegemonic control. By invading Georgia, Russia is making a threat to the Ukraine to give up its bid for NATO membership and if Georgia doesn’t end up falling under total Russian control, then for Georgia to do the same. If Georgia does fall under Russian control, either by regime change or through tight political control, then Russia will control all the Pipelines into Europe and will be in a better place to dictate terms to Europe and NATO.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

GEEZER

Saturday, August 16, 2008 12:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The Hungarian uprising was in part fomented by the VOA's constant barrage of propaganda. The people who took part in it were not only students, but also con-men, ex-nobility, and leftover fascists from WWI. Hubby recalls several "moles" in the uprising's side who were hung from lamposts and killed by razor-blade cuts. (The old fascists really knew how to make people suffer.) Many people were glad to see the Russians roll in.

Longing for the good old days of the Soviet Union, are we?

Russia, in whatever guise, has had imperial longings since forever. I expect that they'll use whatever pretenses they can manufacture to try and intimidate their former colonies like Georgia, Ukraine, Poland, etc. into returning to the fold.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

KWICKO

Saturday, August 16, 2008 1:05 AM

I agree with most of Finn's analysis, but this

Quote:
If Georgia does fall under Russian control, either by regime change or through tight political control, then Russia will control all the Pipelines into Europe and will be in a better place to dictate terms to Europe and NATO.

says that, in the end, it really is about the oil - or at least the pipelines and control. He who controls the spice controls the universe...

Where's the Quisatz Haderach when you need him?

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

RIVERLOVE

Saturday, August 16, 2008 1:35 AM

I don't know if there really is a quizinart hatrack or not, but I do know that little sis, aka Alicia Witt, turned out to be quite exceptional.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 1:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
If Georgia does fall under Russian control, either by regime change or through tight political control, then Russia will control all the Pipelines into Europe and will be in a better place to dictate terms to Europe and NATO.

ROTF, and this is NOT about oil....how exactly???

isall

KWICKO

Saturday, August 16, 2008 2:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
I don't know if there really is a quizinart hatrack or not, but I do know that little sis, aka Alicia Witt, turned out to be quite exceptional.

You can say that again!

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

ERIC

Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Where's the Quisatz Haderach when you need him?

They'd just scream 'Obamanation!"

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 6:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I agree with most of Finn's analysis, but this

Quote:
If Georgia does fall under Russian control, either by regime change or through tight political control, then Russia will control all the Pipelines into Europe and will be in a better place to dictate terms to Europe and NATO.
says that, in the end, it really is about the oil - or at least the pipelines and control. He who controls the spice controls the universe...

Where's the Quisatz Haderach when you need him?

In the end, it’s about advancing Russian influence. Oil just happens to be a big factor in the economy. The desire to view this in terms of oil is a simplistic view of a far more complex agenda. The real picture here is Russian influence.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

KWICKO

Saturday, August 16, 2008 2:26 PM

Finn, I know that oil is "just a part" of the whole picture - but it happens to be the MAJOR part, the OPERATIVE part. Russia is seeking to increase its sphere of influence... over WHAT? By what methods? By controlling what? OIL!

The Russians had said point-blank that if we insisted on pushing ahead with our missile-defense system in Eastern Europe - pushed up to the Russian border to somehow protect against IRANIAN nuclear missile attack - that they would be forced to respond militarily. If they simply wanted a military strike that would show the West that they were displeased, they could have hit some of the proposed installations in Eastern Europe. They did not. They chose to strike at a choke point for oil transshipment, a strategy sure to wreak the most economic havoc on us, while doing the least real damage to the facilities involved.

So, given the choices of what the Russians could do, and where they could do it, they found it most useful to try to disrupt the flow of oil, and to take control of that flow. Oil isn't the ONLY thing this conflict is about, but it's the main thing. Other factors just happened to lay out in favor of Russia on the invasion.

They ARE seeking to increase their influence, no doubt about it. Russia is trying to put pressure on the U.S. to abandon its missile-defense system in Europe and pressure Eastern Europe into more closely following Russia's desires regarding trade and dealings with the West. They're also trying to remind Georgia, Ukraine, and other former Soviet satellite states where they came from, and not to forget it.

But the main tool they're using to achieve all those ends is OIL, because that's the currency of the industrial world. If you have control to the oil, or the ability to interrupt its flow, you have the attention of the entire region, and they're all ears.

Mike

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 3:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
The Russians had said point-blank that if we insisted on pushing ahead with our missile-defense system in Eastern Europe - pushed up to the Russian border to somehow protect against IRANIAN nuclear missile attack - that they would be forced to respond militarily. If they simply wanted a military strike that would show the West that they were displeased, they could have hit some of the proposed installations in Eastern Europe. They did not. They chose to strike at a choke point for oil transshipment, a strategy sure to wreak the most economic havoc on us, while doing the least real damage to the facilities involved.

The Russian’s did not make a military strike in Eastern Europe because they are not trying to impose influence over Europe, and they probably know that's ultimately not a realistic goal. They struck Georgia because it was out of the way, and there’s greater chance that the attack will succeed without Western involvement. To say this is all about oil is missing the whole point of the invasion. Control over the pipelines in the Caucus' will increase their leverage some, but not to the extent that you are making it out to be. Your inflating the issue of oil. Oil is the scapegoat for anything any nation does. The real issue here, however, is Russian control over what it perceives to be its rightful borders, which include now sovereign nations which were once a part of the Soviet Union.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CHRISISALL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 3:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Oil is the scapegoat for anything any nation does.

In fact it's such a cliche' that any nation can now attack another for oil possession or control and call "Cliche'" when cited for it as a cover.
Convenient.

isall

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:36 PM

Quote:
Longing for the good old days of the Soviet Union, are we?

Goddamnit Geezer, do you HAVE to put words in my mouth? For someone who cries strawman! at every convenient oppty you sure manage to do a lot of it! To quote YOU from another thread: patooie! patooie!

My point was simply that we do not know the full story. We weren't given the full story about Hungary in 1956 and the only reason why I know more of it is because I know someone who lived through it. We weren't given the full story about Afghan mujahideen, a term conveniently translated for us as "freedom fighters". And we certainly DON'T know the full story here, and we're not likely to hear it either.

One strategy to winning elections and bumping popularity is to create a crisis and then paint yourself as the savior. It worked for Ronald Reagan, who said We will not negotiate with terrorists while he paid Iran to hang on to the hostages until after he won the election. And then he invaded Grenada after a bunch of Marines got killed in Beirut (and the shuttle blew up). It worked for Maggaret Thatcher. The terror alert levels were a great tool for Bush, until people got bored with them. (When was the last time you heard an alert level? Do you REALLY think we're safer now than before?)

The fact is that most people in South Oessetia see themselves as Russians- not Georgians- and have done so for the past 150 years. But in addition, there are maneuverings going on behind the scenes, just as there were before.

Quote:
John McCain's top foreign policy adviser, Randy Scheunemann... was Georgia's top lobbyist in Washington until earlier this year. He has taken leave from his lobbying firm, Orion Strategies, but he is still listed as president of in the firm, which has received nearly $900,000 from the Embassy of Georgia since 2004.

So, hell, if you can't have a REAL war because the military is stretched thin, how about cooking up an event? Just prod the Georgian President, give him an endless string of promises and utterances of support, point him in the direction of the Russian bear and tell him to go poke it in the snoot. Then backpeddle away from doing anything real while using it as a backdrop for your campaign.

I just hope that McCain doesn't get his publicity stunt confused with reality, like Bush did.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

CHRISISALL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
It worked for Ronald Reagan, who said We will not negotiate with terrorists while he was negotiating with terrorists. He paid Iran to hang on to the hostages until after he won the election.

ooOOO, TALK ABOUT INCONVENIENT TRUTHS- Signy, this little fact is likely to draw fire from many who worship Reagan as our greatest President and someone who could have had NO role in Iran-Contra...

Justsaynoisall

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:52 PM

Doing a little more digging, it turns out that McCains chief foreign policy advisor, Randy Scheunemann, is not only Georgia's chief Washington lobbyist, he's also a Rumsfeld devotee, a neocon, a member of PNAC, and was ONE of the instigators of the invasion of Iraq

Quote:
One of the most successful neocon groups was the U.S. Committee on NATO, directed by Bruce Jackson. Other board members included Randy Scheunemann, Julie Finley, and Gary Schmitt, who like Jackson have been tangled with three other organizations: the Project on Transitional Democracies, the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, and the Project for the New American Century. Both the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq and the Project on Transitional Democracies were PNAC spin-offs.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/barry-tom3.html
(This was written in 2004, so it's not new news or a convenient rewrite of history. All I did was google: Randy Scheunemann + PNAC.

So the McCain campaign is just another cover for the same neocons as before.

It's beginning to look as if the necon strategy is to pick an easily manipulated idiot and ride him into the White House.

Four more years indeed!

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 16, 2008 5:58 PM

bump for geezer

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

CHRISISALL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 6:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
bump for geezer

I heard it said Geezer likes bumps......

Chrisisall

GEEZER

Saturday, August 16, 2008 7:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Goddamnit Geezer, do you HAVE to put words in my mouth?

"The Hungarian uprising was in part fomented by the VOA's constant barrage of propaganda. The people who took part in it were not only students, but also con-men, ex-nobility, and leftover fascists from WWI. Hubby recalls several "moles" in the uprising's side who were hung from lamposts and killed by razor-blade cuts. (The old fascists really knew how to make people suffer.) Many people were glad to see the Russians roll in."

Soviets as saviors? Your words.

Quote:
And we certainly DON'T know the full story here, and we're not likely to hear it either.

From either side. Do you consider the Russians to be more honest? Really?

And did you wait until all the facts were in before condemning the liberation/invasion of Iraq?

Quote:
One strategy to winning elections and bumping popularity is to create a crisis and then paint yourself as the savior.

True. Or for justifying military actions. Putin and Medvedev have done a fine job of this.

Quote:
The terror alert levels were a great tool for Bush, until people got bored with them. (When was the last time you heard an alert level? Do you REALLY think we're safer now than before?)

I didn't think we were in danger before.

Quote:
The fact is that most people in South Oessetia see themselves as Russians- not Georgians- and have done so for the past 150 years.

Since this you say this is a fact, you must have cites to back it up.

Quote:
But in addition, there are maneuverings going on behind the scenes, just as there were before.

Yep. Russia issuing Russian passports to citizens of another country, then claiming it had to protect those 'Russians', for example.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 8:03 PM

The revolt in S. Ossentia was manufactured by Russia. Russia has been fomenting dissent in that region for a while, among which is providing military and monetary aid to Soviet separatists groups and granting Russian citizenship to Georgian citizens of those regions. This whole conflict was manufactured by Russia as part of a 19th century style foreign policy.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 16, 2008 8:17 PM

GEEZER- what YOU said was:

Quote:
Longing for the good old days of the Soviet Union, are we?

What I said was

Quote:
Many people were glad to see the Russians roll in.

Not me. Not "we". Others. Is is possible for me to tell you what others said w/o you imputing it to me? Apparently not.

So, since I'm a little busy right now. let me get you that cite you seem to need so desperately. It's from that bastion of Russian propaganda, the BBC news:

Quote:
As the Russian empire expanded into the area in the 18th and 19th centuries, the Ossetians did not join other peoples of the North Caucasus in putting up fierce resistance. Some fought alongside the Russians against neighbours who had long been rivals, while others made the difficult journey south across the mountains to escape.

By tradition, the Ossetians have had good relations with Russians and were regarded as loyal citizens, first of the Russian empire and later of the Soviet Union. They sided with the Kremlin when Bolshevik forces occupied Georgia in the early 1920s and, as part of the carve-up which followed, the South Ossetian Autonomous Region was created in Georgia and North Ossetia was formed in Russia.

You can read the rest here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/country_profiles/3797729.stm
FINN

Quote:
The revolt in S. Ossentia was manufactured by Russia

Just the slightest googling would have turned up thi. But, you only see what you want to see. As usual.

Quote:
On Sunday 12 November 2006, South Ossetians went to the polls to vote in a referendum confirming the region's independence from Georgia. The result was an overwhelming "yes" to independence, with a turnout above 95% from those among the territory's 70,000 people who were eligible to vote. There was a similar vote in favour of a new term for South Ossetia's president, Eduard Kokoity. Neither outcome came as a surprise, but the chances are that nobody in the international community will take the slightest bit of notice of the results.

www.opendemocracy.net/democracy-caucasus/south_ossetia_4100.jsp

If the USA were so interested in "democracy" surely they would have taken account of this vote?

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 8:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
If the USA were so interested in "democracy" surely they would have taken account of this vote?

The dissent in S. Ossetia was still manufactured by Russia. Just because a region votes for independence doesn’t mean there is a majority of people willing to go to war to accomplish that independence. The majority of people in S. Ossetia would likely have preferred autonomous rule granted by Georgia as in Abkhaz over Russian or Separatist violence. And just because a region votes for independence doesn’t mean that the US should support Russian invasion. Contrary to what you seem to think, Russian invasion has rarely if ever resulted in democracy of any kind. So maybe you need to do a little more “googling” before you start telling people what to think on the issue.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 16, 2008 9:32 PM

Quote:
The dissent in S. Ossetia was still manufactured by Russia.

Finn, Geezer, et al: Just do some googling and background yourself on the issues, okay? From the very same BBC News article that I cited (which you, Finn, apparently didnt' even bother to read:

Quote:
In the twilight of the Soviet Union, as Georgian nationalist Zviad Gamsakhurdia came to prominence in Tbilisi, South Ossetia too flexed its separatist muscles. Soviet forces were sent to keep the peace in late 1989 following violent clashes between Georgians and Ossetians in the capital, Tskhinvali. Violence flared again as South Ossetia declared its intention to secede from Georgia in 1990 and, the following year, effective independence.

The collapse of the USSR and Georgian independence in 1991 did nothing to dampen South Ossetia's determination to consolidate the break with Tbilisi. Sporadic violence involving Georgian irregular forces and Ossetian fighters continued until the summer of 1992 when agreement on the deployment of Georgian, Ossetian and Russian peacekeepers was reached. Hundreds died in the fighting.

Do I need to tell you how little I think of your ability to find the truth?

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 16, 2008 9:36 PM

oops

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 9:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Do I need to tell you how little I think of your ability to find the truth?

We’re already very much aware of how little you view other points of view. At least I think most people are aware, that your rigid pessimistic view and poor perception of the issue, such as siding with Russian aggression, is a product of your unwillingness to see all opinions but your own with distain.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 16, 2008 9:44 PM

Quote:
siding with Russian aggression

Did I say I sided with it? WHAT did I post, very first thing?

But I noticed that you failed to address the topic at hand. You must not have anything substantive to say.

BTW- I cited the BBC News link from the very beginning. You guys are such dorks.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
siding with Russian aggression
Did I say I sided with it? WHAT did I post, very first thing?

But I noticed that you failed to address the topic at hand.

The topic at hand? You mean your attempt to equate separatist violence with the entire population of S. Ossetia and excuse a Russian expansionist invasion of a sovereign democratic State? I don’t really need to respond to that - it proves me point all by itself.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CHRISISALL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Did I say I sided with it? WHAT did I post, very first thing?

It doesn't matter what you said Signy, Finn knows you (and me too) better than you know yourself- he will instruct you as to what you REALLY mean.

Pinkoisall

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:18 PM

The South Ossetians have felt a part of Russia since (please refer to the background article that I cited three times already) and have expressed that viewpoint violently... and by vote... many times in the past (please refer to cited article) years and formally declared independence in (please see cited article).

The Georgians attacked a Russian peacekeeping force stationed in S Ossetia, most likely because the United States "fomented" problems in Georgia. The Russians responded with overwhelming force, and stomped on the Georgians, extracting concessions fomr the Georgians. McCain got to use this as a backdrop for his campaign, the Russians got to stomp the Georgians, and everybody is happy except the Georgians and Ossetians who are merely pawns in the US/ Russian game of Empire. (which the USA is winning)

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The South Ossetians have felt a part of Russia since (please refer to the background article that I cited three times already) and have expressed that viewpoint violently... and by vote... many times in the past (please refer to cited article) years and formally declared independence in (please see cited article).

The Georgians attacked a Russian peacekeeping force stationed in S Ossetia, most likely because the United States "fomented" problems in Georgia. The Russians responded with overwhelming force, and stomped on the Georgians, extracting concessions fomr the Georgians. McCain got to use this as a backdrop for his campaign, the Russians got to stomp the Georgians, and everybody is happy except the Georgians and Ossetians who are merely pawns in the US/ Russian game of Empire. (which the USA is winning)

Right. Of course an intelligent view of the issues might be that Georgians responded to Moscow supported S. Ossetia Separatists mortar and machine gun attacks on Georgian villages, for which Moscow used as a pretext to further their own hegemonic ambitions over former Soviet provinces. But of course, the reasonable and factual explanation doesn’t lend itself to your political agenda so you invent X-file type fantasy of the evil and omnipotent McCain.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

GEEZER

Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Did I say I sided with it? WHAT did I post, very first thing?

"Russia has invaded South Ossetia, which is formally a part of Georgia. However, South Ossetia is ethnically, linguistically, and economically closer to Russia, and most of its residents hold Russian passports. South Ossetia declared independence from Georgia in the early 1990s.
According to some sources Georgia was engaged in ethnic cleansing to prepare the land for immigration by Georgians and put down the separatist movement once and for all."

Sounds like the first thing you posted was a defense and justification of the Russian intervention into Georgia. Seems like my assertion that you miss the good old days of Soviet interventionism isn't too far off the mark, since you obviously support the same actions by their successor state.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 16, 2008 10:43 PM

Quote:
Russian peacekeepers are waging a "fierce" battle with Georgian forces in South Ossetia and have suffered 12 dead and 150 wounded, the peacekeeping forces were quoted as saying by Russian news agencies.

Russian peacekeepers were stationed in S Ossetia, not Georgia. With pictures
www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/09/2329710.htm

Quote:
Sounds like the first thing you posted was a defense and justification of the Russian intervention into Georgia. Seems like my assertion that you miss the good old days of Soviet interventionism isn't too far off the mark, since you obviously support the same actions by their successor state.

What I said, Geezer, is that I think people should be able to belong to whatever group they want, and that trying to impose an identity from the outside (Noth/South, Yugoslavia, Iraq, any number of African nations) doesn't work. Somehow, you failed to miss a whole bunch of my posts. I think it is very clear what the South Ossetians want, and has been for a long time. Not everyone looks at Russia with horror and fear. Some nations do, like Poland. Some don't. Many are mixed. The fact that many S Osetians choose you have Russian passports gives us a good indication of where they want to belong.

However. if the Russians should try to impose an identity on Georgia or an unwanted identity on S Ossetia, it won't won't work. Just as id didn't work when the Georgians tried to impose an indentity on S Ossetia.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

OUT2THEBLACK

Saturday, August 16, 2008 11:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

...Somehow, you failed to miss a whole bunch of my posts. I think it is very clear what the South Ossetians want, and has been for a long time.

Not everyone looks at Russia with horror and fear. Some nations do, like Poland. Some don't. Many are mixed. The fact that many S Osetians choose you have Russian passports gives us a good indication of where they want to belong.

However. if the Russians should try to impose an identity on Georgia or an unwanted identity on S Ossetia, it won't won't work. Just as id didn't work when the Georgians tried to impose an indentity on S Ossetia.

There you go leaping into another archaeological dig , and just getting yourself dirty...

Maybe you should just test the dirt with a big toe , next time...You've got a bad habit of getting in over your head
from the outset...

I don't have a dog in this fight , so much , but...

The folk in S. Ossetia are in a tight spot , geographically , historically , and politically...

The reason so many elect a Russian passport , could be that a South Ossetian passport won't get them anywhere...

South Ossetia is recognized as an autonomous region , as you noted , but it is not recognized as a Sovereign state...

Consequently , the S. Ossetian passport won't get one very far , as a refugee , or immigrant , or even a vacationer...

There's surely manipulation and imperialism going on from both sides of this conflict , as surely as there's hypocrisy , denials , and spin coming from the perps...

Having a Russian passport versus none at all , could prove to be a lifesaving convenience for those folk as may hold 'em...

Likewise , no one can blame the Poles for a Russkie-aversion , as they've been walked over by pretty-nearly everyone , at one time or another , during the 'grand sweep of history'...The Russians are just one of the more-recent examples...

Sometimes , an accident of geography just puts folk at the crossroads of history , time and again...South Ossetia is no particular exception...

CHRISISALL

Saturday, August 16, 2008 11:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
omnipotent McCain.

lolisall

SIGNYM

Sunday, August 17, 2008 12:15 AM

Out2Black... you've got a lot of suppositions. Here's one: If the S Ossetians want a passport, why not choose a Georgian one?

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

OUT2THEBLACK

Sunday, August 17, 2008 12:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Out2Black... you've got a lot of suppositions. Here's one: If the S Ossetians want a passport, why not choose a Georgian one?

No supposition at all...Once again , you unearth many facts , and yet manage to ignore nearly all of 'em...

Why not to choose a Georgian one ?

A lot of reasons , probably all of which would escape you..." Tactics !, woman..."

One is , if you have a Russian passport , it gives a lot more sea and air ports from which to make a hasty exit...

And , if one has to stay in Russia proper , it would give quite a number more potential hiding places than if one had to
hole up in little ol' Georgia...

Now , run along , and resume your playtime...

Just be sure to do your 'homework' FIRST !

http://www.slate.com/id/2191588/entry/2191589

" For now, though, Russia seems satisfied to exercise de facto control over South Ossetia. It has given Russian passports to South Ossetians—who can't travel on their South Ossetian passports—and now 96 percent of South Ossetians are Russian citizens. "

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 4:47 AM

This is part and parcel to what I’m saying. I’m sure most people in S. Ossetia are pretty much aware of Russia’s history of 19th century foreign policy and pretty much aware of Russia’s aspiration of reassert itself over Georgia and pretty much aware of Georgia’s inability to prevent any military incursion by Russia and pretty much aware of how little the rest of the world is likely to do about it if they do. If I lived in S. Ossetia, you can bet I’d have a Russian Passport, and I sure as hell wouldn't be caught dead with Georgian one, regardless of my ethnic or political affiliations.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

OUT2THEBLACK

Sunday, August 17, 2008 4:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
This is part and parcel to what I’m saying. I’m sure most people in S. Ossetia are pretty much aware of Russia’s history of 19th century foreign policy and pretty much aware of Russia’s aspiration of reassert itself over Georgia and pretty much aware of Georgia’s inability to prevent any military incursion by Russia and pretty much aware of how little the rest of the world is likely to do about it if they do...

Snip...EDIT(O2tB):

...If I lived in S. Ossetia, you can bet I’d have a Russian Passport, and I sure as hell wouldn't be caught dead with Georgian one, regardless of my ethnic or political affiliations.

Yeah , you and I would be hoistin' tankards , celebratin' our slippin' about like naughty men , while SignyM would be a raggedy refugee , wonderin'
" What just happened ? ".

SIGNYM

Sunday, August 17, 2008 5:47 AM

O2B, did you read your own cite?

Quote:

Ossetians say they have nothing in common with Georgia and that South Ossetia is an artificial creation thrown together by ethnic Georgian Bolsheviks who wanted to separate and weaken the Ossetian nation. (A much larger portion of the Ossetian people lives in North Ossetia, a part of Russia just across the Caucasus mountains from South Ossetia.) They say that throughout the Soviet era, Georgia populated South Ossetia with ethnic Georgians and restricted the use of the Ossetian language....People here blame the United States for providing military support to Georgia and emboldening Tbilisi to act against South Ossetia, and there is no ambivalence about the relationship with Moscow. Russia and Ossetia have been military allies since at least the 19th century. Moscow has traditionally relied on its fellow Christian Ossetians against the many Muslim nations in the Caucasus as well as against the independent-minded Georgians.

This relationship predates the Soviet Union (and of course modern-day Russia) by many decades. It is not a recent creation. But apparently neither you, nor Finn, nor Geezer can understand the truth when it is presented in plain English from a variety of Western sources including Slate and the BBC.

When I heard about the Hungarian experience from my hubby, I was shocked and a bit skeptical. It never occurred to me that Hungarians might actually want Soviet troops in their nation. But when his mom's relatives came to visit and made a number of spontaneous, disparaging comments about the USA and capitalism I realized that outlook wasn't unique or peculiar. Some of my FIL's friends, OTOH, had portraits of Hitler in their houses.

Listening closely to my dad, who grew up in Poland. made me realize that for all of his wonderful qualities he was deeply anti-Semitic, and like many Poles he was rather glad that Hitler had "cleaned out" Poland. (The direct quote from him was "Hitler cleaned that out well enough") So you see, the truth is often complicated. It doesn't neatly divide itself into the categories that we find convenient to think about: that Russia and communism is universally hated and bad, and that the USA and its allies are universally loved and righteous. Many Poles, who we see as victimized from all sides, were themselves willing accomplices to the Warsaw Ghetto and the concentration camps. Some Hungarians, who we think of as victims of Russian oppression, were such brutal fascists that they embarrassed the Nazis.

So, along those lines, Finn, I think you should read your quote. The one I found so insightful that I adopted it as my signature. Maybe some day you'll grasp the full implication of what you said.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

OUT2THEBLACK

Sunday, August 17, 2008 6:18 AM

Absolutely !

Nothing in the cite was news to me...It's just that your question was about the relative advantages of having a Russian passport versus a useless S. Ossetian one...Or , a Georgian one...

Not taking sides in this conflict...All of this stuff has happened before , one way or the 'tuther...

Seems to me we're in complete agreement now...

Kinda nice , ain't it ?

Is this the first time on common ground for us ?

SIGNYM

Sunday, August 17, 2008 6:21 AM

Seems we've reached it before.

I guess I was reacting to Finn, who seems to think that the Russians are just dastardly bastards for providing passports.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

OUT2THEBLACK

Sunday, August 17, 2008 6:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Seems we've reached it before.

I guess I was reacting to Finn, who seems to think that the Russians are just dastardly bastards for providing passports.

Thanks for sayin'...

Funny you mention that 'reactivity' thing...I ever tell you that you think like a girl ?

You take a different approach...You're working this deal all crabbed !

Maybe I can get you to stop coming at me sideways ? Guarantee , you'll see something different...

I like smart women...

Gotta go...'Nighty-night...

SIGNYM

Sunday, August 17, 2008 7:15 AM

Quote:
Maybe I can get you to stop coming at me sideways ?

And I always thought I was pretty straightforward, logical, and predictable....

You tell me when I'm coming at you sideways. Maybe I'll figure out what you mean by that.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

OUT2THEBLACK

Sunday, August 17, 2008 7:28 AM

Well , you are a mite predictable...Particularly with the more reactive bits...

Don't let it be your downfall...

Straightforward...Pretty much...

Logical ?

Well , you do get there , just sometimes , it seems a rocket-y ride...

Me ? I'm just a mean old man...

See You In the World...

PIRATENEWS

Sunday, August 17, 2008 8:52 AM

Bush Jr invading Russia from behind great wall of BS

VIDEO: Fox News TV: 12-year-old US citizen thanks Russia for saving her from the evil Georgians

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29075

So the gay Fox talking head cuts her off so he can apply more eyeshadow and lipgloss. That little girl makes a better talking head than any ho on TV.

U.S. Launches Airlift to Aid Georgia
http://www.infowars.com/?p=3967

Too bad FEMA and the National Guard refused to save New Orleans after Bush and Hillary Clinton bombed the levees after hurricane Katrina. Three years later, 100,000 New Orleans residents are banned from their homes, thanks to ethnic clensing by the Jewish mafiya from Vegas.

BBC News video proves Georgia invaded first
http://www.infowars.com/?p=3994

Sky News (owned by Fox) uses footage of ruins of South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, says it is Georgia’s key town of Gori
http://www.prisonplanet.com/sky-news-uses-footage-of-ruins-of-south-os
setian-capital-tskhinvali-says-it-is-georgia%e2%80%99s-key-town-of-gori.html

World War 4 on 888: US & Israel attack Russia, Bush BS at Olympics
http://piratenews-tv.blogspot.com/2008/08/world-war-4-on-888-us-attack
s-russia.html

"Both war and peace are in the hands of Israeli Jews."
-Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, U.S. attorney at law and employee of U.S. State Dept
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1011298.html

http://piratenews.org/fox-news-owned-by-communist-china.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendi_Deng
Hanoi Hannity: "I voted for the Sino-American Alliance."
"US ports owned by Commie China is good for me."
"Dead and disabled US soldiers are good for me."
"Outsourcing your job is very good for me."
"Sir Rupert dines with Hillary every week."
"Ron Paul does not exist in my 'Verse."
"Vote for Billary not McCain."

"As far as Chinese goes, I resented it."
-Adam Tudyk, The Making of Firefly

=

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 12:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So, along those lines, Finn, I think you should read your quote. The one I found so insightful that I adopted it as my signature. Maybe some day you'll grasp the full implication of what you said.

I wrote the quote. I know I grasp it far better then you.

I also grasp Russian history far better then you, evidently.

In the thread where you got this signature, you were trying to turn this statement against me by saying that the Iraq war was an ideological war to force freedom onto the Iraqis, now you’re justifying an invasion by Russia because Georgians, according to you I guess, a bunch of fascists.

So evidently, it’s okay to invade a sovereign democratic nation because of a separatist conflict within that nation, by Russia who created the entire issue when they invaded Georgia the first time in 1923 and split Ossetia into North and South. But invading a brutal Islamic fascist regime known for belligerent policies against neighboring nations and murderous internal policies is somehow wrong.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 12:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Maybe I can get you to stop coming at me sideways ? Guarantee , you'll see something different...

No. Signym’s keen art of manipulation is really her only ace in the whole. She gets up in the morning thinking up ways of trapping people and calling them hypocrites. If you say something she agrees with she tries to manipulate the argument until she can get a statement that appears to be superficially contradictory. It’s some verbal chess game to her.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Sunday, August 17, 2008 2:29 PM

Quote:
In the thread where you got this signature, you were trying to turn this statement against me by saying that the Iraq war was an ideological war to force freedom onto the Iraqis, now you’re justifying an invasion by Russia because Georgians, according to you I guess, a bunch of fascists.

That's not what I said, nor what I meant.

Quote:
So evidently, it’s okay to invade a sovereign democratic nation because of a separatist conflict within that nation

Thats' not what I said, nor what I meant.

You've disputed me on every point I brought up so far, and lost: The length of the relationship between Ossetians and Russians, which goes back beyond 1923. The historical "nonviolent" response of Ossetians to Georgian dominance. The role and the problem of Russian passports. Who attacked who first, in this latest round of "nonviolence". The role of our neocons. I guess the only way you feel you can "win" this argument is to put words in my mouth?

So: The Ossetians fought Georgia in 1990-1992. Personally, my view would have been: Let 'em leave. But Georgia has ambitions to the land. So peacekeepers were installed to prevent further violence. but without a complete political resolution.

Likely because of promises of American support, Georgia attacked the peacekeers. (This wouldn't be the first time we prompted a revolt and then hung the rebels out to dry.) Their bad. Then Russia responded disproportionately, and stomped on Georgia. Their bad.

The question is: Now what? Do we go in with guns blazing? Do we whine and moan about the horrible Russians... meanwhile ringing their border with missiles? Do we amp up the situation and back Russia into a corner? Do we sleepwalk into letting the neocons prop up yet another corrupt regime?

My view is: Let the little guys, the Ossetians, gain their independence. I think its the right thing to do.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

SIGNYM

Sunday, August 17, 2008 2:48 PM

Quote:
No. Signym’s keen art of manipulation is really her only ace in the whole. She gets up in the morning thinking up ways of trapping people and calling them hypocrites. If you say something she agrees with she tries to manipulate the argument until she can get a statement that appears to be superficially contradictory. It’s some verbal chess game to her.

Oh and BTW Finn- You're a bonehead.

You can go on and on about the poor little fetuses and how we should "respect human life" and then justify hundreds of thousands of equally innocent deaths of "collateral damage". You talk a good line about "freedom" but you support every invasion that we ever did and every tyrant we ever backed. You view terrorism with horror but think "shock and awe"... and its concomitant death... is okay. You talk about eloquently... indeed, insightfully.... about the dangers of righteousness, about being so wrapped up in an idea that it is used to excuse vile action... without recognizing that you're the epitome of exactly what you fear. Because you're so wrapped up in your ideas you can't see what you're doing. You support the biggest military in the world... a military that has over 800 installations around the globe... because you're AFRAID.

These aren't "superficial" contradictions. They represent a chasm that completely bifurcates your brain. When was the last time you looked in a mirror? When was the last time one side of your brain talked to the other?

So let me try, one more time, and maybe by sheer repetition it will sink in: If do DO BAD you're a "bad guy" not a "good guy".

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 2:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You can go on and on about the poor little fetuses and how we should "respect human life" and then justify hundreds of thousands of equally innocent deaths of "collateral damage". You talk a good line about "freedom" but you support every invasion that we ever did and every tyrant we ever backed. You view terrorism with horror but think "shock and awe"... and its concomitant death... is okay. You even talk about eloquently... indeed, insightfully.. about the dangers of righteousness, about being so wrapped up in an idea that it is used to excuse vile action... without recognizing that you're the epitome of exactly what you fear. You support the biggest military in the world.

These are all your little superficial contradictions or in some cases fabricated contradictions that you’ve amassed over the years to convince yourself of the righteousness of her own views. I doubt you’ve even once actually tried to understand a different point of view, at least not mine. Instead you take views that differ from her own, manipulate them until you can find some superficial contradiction within them, or in some cases manufacture a contradiction, and then dismiss it as inconsistent with logic, but in the end, all you’re really doing is dismissing a point of view, because it’s not yours.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Sunday, August 17, 2008 3:04 PM

Quote:
You can go on and on about the poor little fetuses and how we should "respect human life" and then justify hundreds of thousands of equally innocent deaths of "collateral damage". You talk a good line about "freedom" but you support every invasion that we ever did and every tyrant we ever backed. You view terrorism with horror but think "shock and awe"... and its concomitant death... is okay. You even talk about eloquently... indeed, insightfully.. about the dangers of righteousness, about being so wrapped up in an idea that it is used to excuse vile action... without recognizing that you're the epitome of exactly what you fear. You support the biggest military in the world.-Signy

These are all your little superficial contradictions or in some cases fabricated contradictions that you’ve amassed over the years to convince yourself of the righteousness of her own views. I doubt you’ve even once actually tried to understand a different point of view, at least not mine. Instead you take views that differ from her own, manipulate them until you can find some superficial contradiction within them, or in some cases manufacture a contradiction, and then dismiss it as inconsistent with logic, but in the end, all you’re really doing is dismissing a point of view, because it’s not yours.-Finn

Finn, I have tried to understand your POV. The problem is you don't have ONE, you have about 16 and they all contradict each other. You couldn't explain what you mean if you life depended on it because you feel but you don't think.

But OOC Finn, when was the last time you tried to understand MY point of view? I make one point, and I make it all the time. Should be easy.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

CHRISISALL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 3:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

You can go on and on about the poor little fetuses and how we should "respect human life" and then justify hundreds of thousands of equally innocent deaths of "collateral damage". You talk a good line about "freedom" but you support every invasion that we ever did and every tyrant we ever backed. You view terrorism with horror but think "shock and awe"... and its concomitant death... is okay. You talk about eloquently... indeed, insightfully.... about the dangers of righteousness, about being so wrapped up in an idea that it is used to excuse vile action... without recognizing that you're the epitome of exactly what you fear. Because you're so wrapped up in your ideas you can't see what you're doing. You support the biggest military in the world... a military that has over 800 installations around the globe... because you're AFRAID.

Wow.
That about says it all, I think.

Awedmyownselfisall

CHRISISALL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 3:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
in the end, all you’re really doing is dismissing a point of view, because it’s not yours.

Call the kettle black much, Finn?

What's up? I've not seen you so...emotional about stuff before, you used to battle stuff out, but now you've retreated to a position where you dismiss us by saying we're just dismissing you.
I disagree with Signy that you don't have a POV, but I agree that within your POV there seem to be contradictory elements. But, label us Fringe left Bush-hating tin-foil-types & you make the problem go away- you need not THINK anymore.

Is that your objective here now?

?isall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 3:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But OOC Finn, when was the last time you tried to understand MY point of view?

The abortion discussion, or there after, was probably the last time; when we spent a week or more hashing out the issue of abortion. I spent hours and hours explaining myself in detail about my views on abortion, working out every detail until you understood it. And then what did you do? You started accusing me of wanting to murder people, just because your pathetic self-righteousness couldn't allow you to accept that any view different from yours could exist without contradiction. That was the last time I spent any real time trying to understand you. I still read your posts. You’re an intelligent person with an interesting point of view, and it’s a shame that you have such a narrow perspective of other views, because you could offer some insight. I just don’t know how much of what you say can be taken seriously and how much is just the verbal chess game designed to demonize people for not seeing things your way, so there’s not a lot of incentive for me to spend a lot time on your posts trying to find insight that might be nothing more then manipulation.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 3:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Is that your objective here now?

Let me know when you’re ready to have a discussion about Bush that doesn’t include equating him to Darth Vader, then we’ll find out.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Sunday, August 17, 2008 4:24 PM

Quote:
I spent hours and hours explaining myself in detail about my views on abortion, working out every detail until you understood it.

What you were explaining at the time was how a fertlized egg is like a train: it has a destination, a goal, a purpose, an ideal (human being) which defines it. (Typical Artistolelian concept BTW.) Basically, your rationale for why a fertilized egg is a human being despite the lack of human features or the certainty that it will arrive at its destination (given the stochastic nature of fetal development).

I got that.

I don't agree with it, but I got it.

What I don't understand is how you can have such passionately protective feeelings about humans at their merest flicker of possibility... and be so callous to actual people, that they can be casually disposed of on your way to some greater idea.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 4:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
What I don't understand is how you can have such passionately felt protective feeelings about human life at its merest flicker of possibility... and be so callous to actual people, that they can be casually disposed of on your way to some greater idea.

This is my point. This is the way you justify, not agreeing with me - by painting me as uncaring of human life. Basically hating me or thinking of me as evil is the only way you can justify in your mind, me not seeing things your way. This taints every view of me you have - it makes it impossible for you to understand anything I say.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CHRISISALL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 4:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Let me know when you’re ready to have a discussion about Bush that doesn’t include equating him to Darth Vader, then we’ll find out.

I've never equated the two; Vader is intelligent. And he was a good guy, in the end.

Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 4:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Basically hating me or thinking of me as evil is the only way you can justify in your mind, me not seeing things your way.

Finn, I personally really want to get where you're coming from, and at times I think I'm close, but this idea that a half million Iraqi civies dead to topple Saddam's regime being an acceptable loss towards that victory just does not compute....this is the thing, when juxtaposed with your stance on abortion, that gets Signy (I believe) & me all turned around. Your definition of acceptable human termination seems quite fluid in it's application.

T-1000isall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 4:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Basically hating me or thinking of me as evil is the only way you can justify in your mind, me not seeing things your way.
Finn, I personally really want to get where you're coming from, and at times I think I'm close, but this idea that a half million Iraqi civies dead to topple Saddam's regime being an acceptable loss towards that victory just does not compute....this is the thing, when juxtaposed with your stance on abortion, that gets Signy (I believe) & me all turned around. Your definition of acceptable human termination seems quite fluid in it's application.

Well this is nothing new. The Anti-War Philosophy has always been one that is prone to hateful fanaticism. This is the reason why hippies spat in the face of soldiers coming home from Vietnam. You don’t agree with the Iraq War, which is a perfectly reasonable position to take, but then you take people that you think feel that the Iraq War was necessary and you paint them as feeling that way to satisfy from need for killing or uncaring of human life, because you don’t want to accept their point of view, which is completely unreasonable.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

PARTICIPANT

Sunday, August 17, 2008 5:10 PM

Adding to another Neocon conspiracy

Quote:
Retired US Lt. Colonel tells it like it is re: Georgian-Russian conflict
In particular note what he says about Blackwater, Izzy troops, and US troops in Georgia.

What Has Really Been
Occurring In The
Russian-Georgian Conflict
A First-Hand Report By An American In Russia
By Byron J. Richards, CCN
NewsWithViews.com
8-15-8

Note: This article was written by a retired Lt.-Col. in the U.S. military, who is currently residing in Russia. His article here helps clear up much of the misinformation people have been fed by the sadistic folks in Washington who are trying to promote WWIII. -ed

In 1991, South Ossetia was promised independence from the Soviet Union, and the Georgian Republic. However, when Georgia became independent it saw an opportunity to grab some land, and the terminals for two major oil pipelines. Since Georgia is essentially bankrupt and an economic basket case, they saw this as a viable option.

It should also be understood that contrary to the 30 years old CIA report that is being circulated, Georgia is now over 60% Moslem, with Moslems controlling the government, and South Ossetia - which is surrounded on three sides by Georgia - is over 80% Orthodox Christian. This is something else that amazes me about Bush's choice of "allies."

They essentially invaded South Ossetia and installed a rather brutal military government. The South Ossetians did not want to be grabbed and they fought back, and in the fighting some Russian cities were damaged just across the border and there were a number of civilian casualties. Russia essentially said "Quit damaging our cities" and sent Russian troops to see that no more Russian cities were damaged. They became the main component in a small international (with Azerbaizhan and Tdjikistan) peacekeeping force in the region.

Comes last Thursday and the Georgians attack the Russians in South Ossetia. Once again, they are trying to isolate and grab those two oil terminals. As a preparatory move to this, they began shelling the Russian forces stationed in the area as peacekeepers...and once again overshot and hit two small Russian towns across the border.

The Russians come in to evacuate the Russian wounded and put fresh troops in place to keep the Georgians and South Ossetians from tearing up Russian cities and killing more Russian civilians in their own country. They also intended to stop a relentless Katucha rocket bombardment and standard artillery bombardment of the South Ossetian capital (which has no military significance) and has already reduced it to a pile of gravel and fine white powder -- with over 2,000 known civilian casualties, mostly the elderly and children.
The Russians tried to send in relief supplies (for all parties) and the Georgians tried to sink the unarmed, civilian transport ship. A Russian Krivak class frigate that was on a routine patrol out of Sevastopol picked up the SOS and responded. An 120 ft. missile boat is not much of a match for a Krivak class frigate... enough said. The result was splinters and an oil slick but not before the freighter had been seriously damaged and sustained numerous casualties.
The UN is sending in supplies, and no one stops them.

Because there is strong reason to believe that the US has been aiding the Georgians in the fight (just over 1,500 "advisors" on the ground from "Blackwater" that are demonstrable, and massive shipments of US arms and ammunition for the past 18 months) the Russians are suspicious of US aid, especially when it comes aboard military ships and airplanes. Comes the day the US sends aid via civilian vessels, the Russians will have no objections and have made it clear that such aid would be welcomed by all parties.

The French president is involved in hammering out a ceasefire that seems to be holding because the Russians and the Georgians and the South Ossetians all feel that he can be impartial because "he ain't got no dog in this fight." Still the Georgians have not completely ceased their offensive. They recently began shelling

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CHRISISALL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 5:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Well this is nothing new. The Anti-War Philosophy has always been one that is prone to hateful fanaticism.

Yes, peeps that hate the taking of lives for no seemingly useful reason can get a little...radical.

Quote:
This is the reason why hippies spat in the face of soldiers coming home from Vietnam.

Those self-righteous zealots needed to be slapped, IMO.

Quote:
You don’t agree with the Iraq War, which is a perfectly reasonable position to take, but then you take people that feel that the Iraq War was necessary and you paint them as feeling that way because they want to kill people because you don’t want to accept their point of view, which is completely unreasonable.

This is where you lose me: explain to me please how a half million Iraqi civies dead to topple Saddam's regime is a good trade off...I will paint you and others as indifferent to human life if you can't offer anything better than 'he would have become the new Hitler' or any of that nonsense...see, decisions about the economy, education, infrastructure all pale next to military decisions- if you're going to cause deaths, it HAS to be a GOOD REASON, not merely a differing 'belief'.
To send peeps to their next existence because yeah, well, everyone was SAYING he had WMD, I swear... just ain't good enough, by any reasonable standard.
Death is kinda final, see, so it provokes a stronger reaction than closing a school or something.

Struggling Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Sunday, August 17, 2008 5:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by participant:

US troops are currently landing in Georgia. Estimates are at least one "brigade strength" infantry unit with full equipment. They are joining the
Blackwater and Israeli troops (about 4,000 total) already present. The Bush Naval task force with yet more "aid" is supposedly in route. Whether it will be unchallenged when it enters Russian territorial waters remains to be seen.

Sounds like the poopy is about to impact the blades of the cooling unit, if this report is true...

Hides under deskisall

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