South Ossetia: Defense against ethnic cleansing, or invasion? (Turns out, Georgia fired missiles first. it was self defense)

POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Sunday, August 23, 2026 15:28
VIEWED: 18653
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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Something about there not being a good reason to not pound on a ruthless dictator. Seems like I read that somewhere. Must've been someone else posting that...

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Selective reading. There are plenty good reasons to pound on Saudi Arabia - that doesn’t mean that it’s worth the resources.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yes, people like the President, the Vice President, the Secretary of Defense... you know, the people who said it would be over in days, weeks, months (doubtful), "mission accomplished", and all that. It ISN'T that easy, and never has been - that's why military force isn't the first option, but the LAST option. And one that we were never anywhere near needing to opt for.

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Their the ones saying to stay in and work it out. I was thinking of people like you.

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Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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I was thinking of people like you.

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People like me - because you know so much about me. I've never said that it was going to be too easy, or that we should "give up". What I HAVE said - and have been saying for years - is that we shouldn't have gone in in the first place, BECAUSE it wasn't going to be fast or easy, and we'd be bogged down for YEARS. And for that, I was labeled - by "people like you" - as un-American, unpatriotic, pessimistic, a lover of terrorists, and anything else you - and "people like you" - could throw at me. Yet I'm still here, and I'm still right.

And you and the "people like you" are still trying to justify the war, and still changing the reasons and rationale behind the rush to war.




Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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I was thinking of people like you.

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People like me - because you know so much about me. I've never said that it was going to be too easy, or that we should "give up". What I HAVE said - and have been saying for years - is that we shouldn't have gone in in the first place, BECAUSE it wasn't going to be fast or easy, and we'd be bogged down for YEARS. And for that, I was labeled - by "people like you" - as un-American, unpatriotic, pessimistic, a lover of terrorists, and anything else you - and "people like you" - could throw at me. Yet I'm still here, and I'm still right.

And you and the "people like you" are still trying to justify the war, and still changing the reasons and rationale behind the rush to war.

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I’ve never called you any of those things, nor have I changed my reasons why I believe the war was and should have been fought. But I believe I have seen you argue that we should leave Iraq, though I’m not certain of that nor am I going to investigate it. If you say you believe we should stay in and work out the remaining concerns then I’ll believe you and agree.

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Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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that doesn’t mean that it’s worth the resources.

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"worth" the resources? So, why was IRAQ "worth" the resources, but not Saudi Arabia? Or Darfur? What do you place this "worth" on?

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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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My question is this: What tips the scale for you towards Iraq v Saudi Arabia? Do you perceive a higher "cost" of invading Saudi Arabia? If so, what would those costs be? Do you perceive a higher benefit in invading Iraq? If so, what are those benefits?


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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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There are plenty good reasons to pound on Saudi Arabia - that doesn’t mean that it’s worth the resources.

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So, at long last, there's your "principled" moral stand - We'll do it, if it's worth the investment. That's your entire basis for the worth of a human life, is it? It certainly comes across as such.



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Originally posted by SignyM:
"worth" the resources? So, why was IRAQ "worth" the resources, but not Saudi Arabia? Or Darfur? What do you place this "worth" on?

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That's on a need-to-know basis, Signy.

(Actually, it's a secret & complicated thing Cheney does; he has things around him that represent countries, then closes his eyes, has a Budweiser, and fires his gun- what gets hit is where we go. For instance, recently, pheasants represented North Korea, trees were Darfur, & old friends were Iran, so guess where we go next.)

Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
What I HAVE said - and have been saying for years - is that we shouldn't have gone in in the first place, BECAUSE it wasn't going to be fast or easy, and we'd be bogged down for YEARS. And for that, I was labeled - by "people like you" - as un-American, unpatriotic, pessimistic, a lover of terrorists, and anything else you - and "people like you" - could throw at me. Yet I'm still here, and I'm still right.

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That's right, just close your eyes, plug your ears and hum softly secure in your position. How can we help fix Iraq? How do we help stabilize the country? How do we help to rebuild people's lives? Who cares, we shouldn't have gone in the first place, nah nah nah nah nah.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

That's right, just close your eyes, plug your ears and hum softly secure in your position. How can we help fix Iraq? How do we help stabilize the country? How do we help to rebuild people's lives? Who cares, we shouldn't have gone in the first place, nah nah nah nah nah.

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Yo- I'm about sick of your nonsense, BDN, no one's sayin' just leave them to twist, we're lookin' for solutions for this mess & tryin' to LEARN not to let things like this happen again.

Time out for you, young man.

Stern Chrisisall

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So, at long last, there's your "principled" moral stand - We'll do it, if it's worth the investment. That's your entire basis for the worth of a human life, is it? It certainly comes across as such.

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I wasn't gonna go there. But it seems that way to me too. Maybe Finn can 'splain it.


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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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How can we help fix Iraq? How do we help stabilize the country? How do we help to rebuild people's lives?

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Those are questions that I was asking almost seven years ago. You know what the answer I got was? "We won't need to - the Iraqis will greet us as liberators, and oil profits will fund the reconstruction." It's no truer now than it was then, and I called bullshit on it then as I do now.

What do *I* do about it now? Nothing. *I* didn't break it - you did. You and your right-wing Neo-con worthless asshole brethren. I warned you, you didn't listen, and you can take it all and shove it straight up your ass now for all I care. I told you it would be a monumental waste of human lives, both American and Iraqi, and I was told it wouldn't cost more than a few lives at the most, and the blood is squarely on YOUR hands now, because this is exactly what you wanted and what you begged for, and you fucking well deserve it.

I'm sick to fucking death of the righties whinging about how "no one could have foreseen this turn of events in Iraq" - when there were several million of us who foresaw it EXACTLY as it's come to pass, and who were denounced by that very administration as being less than American in our viewpoints. Now these same right-wing assholes want us to sign off on an Iranian campaign, and they assure us that nothing could possibly go wrong this time. Well, fuck them, and fuck you for supporting them.





Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Mike, lol, don't feel the need to tread so lightly here, just let 'em have it, lol.

isall

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no one's sayin' just leave them to twist

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Incorrect.

I want us out, now, and to hell with what they think of it (they'd probably cheer tho) cause we need to worry about our own issues before we start trying to conquer the world under the thin veneer of policing it - I am totally with Mikey on this, we TOLD you how this would go, chapter and verse, and now y'all wanna compound the mistake doing something even more stupid (Iran) from an even weaker position ?

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Oh, and is it just me, or has no one ELSE ever sat and thought about the economic impact of removing that many american workers from this economy and paying them (badly) from the tax coffers for a very extended period of time ?

Just sayin, no one else seems to have connected the dots on that one, either.

Out, Now.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

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no one's sayin' just leave them to twist

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Incorrect.

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I stand corrected.

What Frem? You wanna just tell the Iraqis "We got rid of Saddam, the rest is up to you- best of luck" ?
We need to be their Nanny State Protector, according to the Conservatives on this board!

Mischievous Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
So, at long last, there's your "principled" moral stand - We'll do it, if it's worth the investment. That's your entire basis for the worth of a human life, is it? It certainly comes across as such.

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And what about your interest in the lives of those killed by ruthless dictators in Rwanda? Did you support war to deal with those ruthless dictators? What about Darfur? Do you support war to deal with those ruthless dictators? Obviously we know that you were willing to leave the Iraqis to the whim of that ruthless dictator since you don’t feel the Iraq war was worth the investment. You should be a little more careful with your self-righteous outbursts because these are your principles too.

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Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Originally posted by Foster:
You know that the Russian excuse is the same one that Hitler used to invade Poland back in the day.

They were "German" people living in Poland and so he was just protecting them from genocide and discrimination. Answer for the world "well if they are your people and your protecting them then it is OK to invade"

It is all just a little bit of history repeating

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and it is the same one NATO used in Kosavo

Lets party like its 1939

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Oh, and is it just me, or has no one ELSE ever sat and thought about the economic impact of removing that many american workers from this economy and paying them (badly) from the tax coffers for a very extended period of time ?

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Nearly 60% of the American Governments budget is spent on the Military in various guises. Lots of it is hidden under the Department of Energy Budget, as the money spent on providing the US Military with energy.

The Military is the biggest US industry.

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More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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And U.S. defense spending accounts for almost HALF of all the military expenditure for the entire world, according to the Government Accounting Office.

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More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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And what about your interest in the lives of those killed by ruthless dictators in Rwanda? Did you support war to deal with those ruthless dictators? What about Darfur? Do you support war to deal with those ruthless dictators?

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Finn, you're making the mistake that war is the best way to deal with dictators. That's a false dilemna.


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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Those are questions that I was asking almost seven years ago. You know what the answer I got was? "We won't need to - the Iraqis will greet us as liberators, and oil profits will fund the reconstruction." It's no truer now than it was then, and I called bullshit on it then as I do now.

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Who were you asking these questions of and who was telling you that answer?
And if I consider it called bullshit will you consider not calling it anymore?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
What do *I* do about it now? Nothing. *I* didn't break it - you did.

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Should the Government provide universal healthcare?
No. I got mine so why do I care?
Should the government bail out homeowners?
No. I ain't got no mortgage troubles so why do I care?
Should the Government raise the minimum wage?
No. I don't make minimum wage so why do I care?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
You and your right-wing Neo-con worthless asshole brethren.

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Remember your old sig line about sweeping generalizations always being wrong?
Because I had the temerity to question your stance, I must be a worthless Neo-con asshole. And all Muslims are terrorists, right?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
I warned you, you didn't listen, and you can take it all and shove it straight up your ass now for all I care. I told you it would be a monumental waste of human lives, both American and Iraqi, and I was told it wouldn't cost more than a few lives at the most, and the blood is squarely on YOUR hands now, because this is exactly what you wanted and what you begged for, and you fucking well deserve it. I'm sick to fucking death of the righties whinging about how "no one could have foreseen this turn of events in Iraq" - when there were several million of us who foresaw it EXACTLY as it's come to pass, and who were denounced by that very administration as being less than American in our viewpoints. Now these same right-wing assholes want us to sign off on an Iranian campaign, and they assure us that nothing could possibly go wrong this time. Well, fuck them, and fuck you for supporting them.

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That was quite a little tantrum there, I hope you feel better now.
And what's with the language there son, this isn't the locker room. Show some respect for your fellow Posters.

We all 'get' that you knew everything about everything once it had already happened. Whatever reasoning or lack thereof for the invasion, we cannot go back in time. So constantly typing about what you may or may not have known, and when you knew it or didn't, is simply posturing, IMHO.

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We all 'get' that you knew everything about everything once it had already happened.

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Just bc you can't predict obvious consequences doesn't mean everyone else is equally incapable.

I had the same problems as Kwicko with invading Iraq, well before we invaded. And we weren't the only ones. There were actual anti-war demonstrations ahead of time, objective proof that at least SOME people could either see the fallacy of the Bush drive to war, or the problems entailed with an invasion, or both. I've also been predicting the current economic meltdown for about a year. All you have to do is go back to mys posts with Fletch2 to verify.

Now, in my book, if someone has a model in their head accurate enough to predict things that I can't, I feel like I should learn from them because clearly they know something I don't. You might want to do the same, son.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Just bc you can't predict obvious consequences doesn't mean everyone else is equally incapable.

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Tell me how you know anything about me, my stance, or my predicting abilities, to make a statement like that. Just because I do not play the "I told you so" card as freely as some, does not mean I did not know. Does your model lessen the instabilities presently in Iraq? Does it lower the burden on indebted homeowners? Is it a coping mechanism? You know, plausible deniability.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I had the same problems as Kwicko with invading Iraq, well before we invaded. And we weren't the only ones. There were actual anti-war demonstrations ahead of time, objective proof that at least SOME people could either see the fallacy of the Bush drive to war, or the problems entailed with an invasion, or both.

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Man that whole majority rules thing sucks. If only the US was a dictatorship with Signy as the dictator.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I've also been predicting the current economic meltdown for about a year. All you have to do is go back to mys posts with Fletch2 to verify.

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Yeah, I remember reading that in another thread.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Now, in my book, if someone has a model in their head accurate enough to predict things that I can't, I feel like I should learn from them because clearly they know something I don't. You might want to do the same, son.

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Oh, but I have learned alot from different Posters in this forum, too bad the same can't be said about you.

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Reality check- we were right, er, I mean correct on this, BDN. You poor righties need to defend it, to justify it, to make it the right choice...if you don't criticize the war, you accept it.


isall

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Who were you asking these questions of...

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Anyone and everyone I could talk to about it. Friends, family, coworkers, acquaintances, several web boards, e-mails and letters.

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...and who was telling you that answer?

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Well, let's see - telling me and the rest of the nation... President Bush, Vice President Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Condolleza Rice, Donald Feith, Paul Wolfowitz, and the entire Republican heirarchy. I'll leave Colin Powell out of it, because he is a man of honor and integrity, and being faced with a horrible situation, he did his best to follow orders as he was trained to do as a military officer. But I did lose a great deal of respect for him for it, and I don't think he's ever recovered, professionally or personally.

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Should the Government provide universal healthcare?
No. I got mine so why do I care?

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You don't.

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Should the government bail out homeowners?
No. I ain't got no mortgage troubles so why do I care?

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You don't.

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Should the Government raise the minimum wage?
No. I don't make minimum wage so why do I care?

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You don't.
If these are your avowed positions, you hardly gain any credibility by questioning my taking the same position in regards to your beloved little war. And truth be told, I'm right there with ya on at least two of those issues.

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Remember your old sig line about sweeping generalizations always being wrong?

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Yes. You DO realize that it's an ironic statement, don't you? It's a contradiction - if I say that sweeping generalizations are always wrong, then that statement is itself a sweeping generalization, and therefore must be wrong. Do you get it?

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Because I had the temerity to question your stance, I must be a worthless Neo-con asshole.

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MUST be? Not necessarily. If you throw your lot in with Bush and his cronies and support the Iraq war, then yes.

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And all Muslims are terrorists, right?

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Your words, not mine. Let me guess; you never once said anything along the lines of "we should nuke the entire Middle East" or "Kill 'em all".

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That was quite a little tantrum there, I hope you feel better now.

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Oh, but I do.

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And what's with the language there son, this isn't the locker room.

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I'm not your son. You're not my father, nor any kin to me (thank the fates). And I'm likely older than you are, boy. Don't like the profanity? Change your screen name. Isn't that a four-letter word I see in it?

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Show some respect for your fellow Posters.

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I show respect for those who earn it.

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We all 'get' that you knew everything about everything once it had already happened.

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I don't think you "get" it at all. The party on the right is the party that is essentially saying:

"Warnings about Al Qaeda? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Hunting down Bin Laden? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Liberating Iraq and making it a haven for democracy and a beacon to the Middle East? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Throwing covert operatives under the bus to settle political scores? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Firing U.S. attorneys who didn't want to play ball on caging lists and participate in election fraud? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Responding to natural disasters like Katrina? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Anticipating the mortgage meltdown? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Tanking the economy and devaluing the dollar? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Blowing the "permanent majority" that would keep us forever in power? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Having any credibility on the world diplomatic stage? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Pulling nations together to unite in an effort to eradicate terrorism? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Wiping out the Taliban and Al Qaeda and putting an end to Islamic extremism? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Getting you cheap oil like

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Reality check- we were right, er, I mean correct on this, BDN. You poor righties need to defend it, to justify it, to make it the right choice...if you don't criticize the war, you accept it.


isall

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Yup, and those reasons and justifications are changing more often than the seasons. WMD! Oil For Food! Terrorists! Al Qaeda! Hez'bollah! Hamas! Congress made us do it! Saddam must go! UN bad - US good! Support the troops! Moral imperative! Fightin' 'em there so we don't have to fight 'em here! They hate our freedoms! You're not the boss of me! I'm the decider! The Sunnis! The Shiites! The Kurds! The Iranians! The Russians! The Chinese! The North Koreans! The sky is falling!

What's next on your "wheel of misfortune" for reasons for the invasion of Iraq? Will you blame the war on flag-burning? Gay marriage? Illegal immigration? What's the reason du jour?





Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Just because I do not play the "I told you so" card as freely as some, does not mean I did not know.

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Then, pray tell, how can we know that you aren't just posturing? You SAY you know, but what proof do we have?

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Tell me how you know anything about me...

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Right back atcha, sporto.




Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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And what about your interest in the lives of those killed by ruthless dictators in Rwanda? Did you support war to deal with those ruthless dictators? What about Darfur? Do you support war to deal with those ruthless dictators? Obviously we know that you were willing to leave the Iraqis to the whim of that ruthless dictator since you don’t feel the Iraq war was worth the investment. You should be a little more careful with your self-righteous outbursts because these are your principles too.

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What about my interests in those areas? What do you know of my interests in those areas? Nothing at all.

You say that "obviously" I was willing to leave the Iraqis to the whim of Saddam, because you can only see black/white, on/off, war/not war in your tiny little world view. To say that I was against the invasion and occupation of Iraq is not to say that I was against doing ANYTHING at all. As I stated before, war isn't - and never should be - the FIRST option you go for. It should be the LAST option, because it renders all others unworkable.

Pulling Saddam into line would have been the first step. Remarkably, it had worked to some degree after the first Gulf War - a war which was never aimed at regime change in Iraq, but solely at driving Iraqi forces from Kuwait. George H.W. Bush understood something that Dubya never has: creating a power vacuum in Iraq was a VERY BAD IDEA. You had too many factions, all of which hated each other, but all of which were somewhat held in check by Saddam's ruthless reign. The only way removing him from power was ever going to be workable was if it were done from within.




Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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And what about your interest in the lives of those killed by ruthless dictators in Rwanda? Did you support war to deal with those ruthless dictators? What about Darfur? Do you support war to deal with those ruthless dictators? Obviously we know that you were willing to leave the Iraqis to the whim of that ruthless dictator since you don’t feel the Iraq war was worth the investment. You should be a little more careful with your self-righteous outbursts because these are your principles too.

---

What about my interests in those areas? What do you know of my interests in those areas? Nothing at all.

You say that "obviously" I was willing to leave the Iraqis to the whim of Saddam, because you can only see black/white, on/off, war/not war in your tiny little world view. To say that I was against the invasion and occupation of Iraq is not to say that I was against doing ANYTHING at all. As I stated before, war isn't - and never should be - the FIRST option you go for. It should be the LAST option, because it renders all others unworkable.

---

But we were talking about war, not ANYTHING at all. You criticized me for not being willing to go to war unless it was worth the effort to go to war, yet here you are claiming the same thing. That’s a bit hypocritical. So if you can question my value of human life, simply because I don’t believe we should fight a war unless it’s worth it to do so, then I can certainly question yours, because you're more willing then me to leave innocent people at the whim of ruthless dictators.

---

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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And, as I've pointed out, your FIRST option seems to be to jump straight for the "war" card. You are unwilling to do anything other than jump straight into an all-out war at the drop of a hat.

Hell, I can't see why you draw the line at Darfur, Iraq, Iran, Rwanda, or Somalia - why aren't you beating your stupid war drums for invasion of Mexico? After all, they must have some sort of "ruthless dictator" if so many millions of refugees are pouring across our border to get away from him. Shouldn't we invade Mexico to fix all their problems? Apparently, we have all the answers, as long as those answers are spelled "W....A....R!"




Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
And, as I've pointed out, your FIRST option seems to be to jump straight for the "war" card. You are unwilling to do anything other than jump straight into an all-out war at the drop of a hat.

---

Right. After 12 years of negotiation, 17 Chapter 7 Resolutions, and Sanctions that solved no other problems but the lives of 1.5 million people - then I was ready to just jump straight into war. You’re a little bit dumb, aren’t you?

---

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
those reasons and justifications are changing more often than the seasons. WMD! Oil For Food! Terrorists! Al Qaeda! Hez'bollah! Hamas! Congress made us do it! Saddam must go! UN bad - US good! Support the troops! Moral imperative! Fightin' 'em there so we don't have to fight 'em here! They hate our freedoms! You're not the boss of me! I'm the decider! The Sunnis! The Shiites! The Kurds! The Iranians! The Russians! The Chinese! The North Koreans! The sky is falling!

---

I just heard a piece on NPR where they interviewed former press secretary Scott McClellan, and he said it was Bush's fervent belief that the Middle East needed re-structuring to create a lasting stability & to create a bad medium in which terrorists could flourish, and that that was the ONLY reason we went into Iraq- everything else was promo.
See- we've done such a good job of re-structuring places all over the world, it's not a grandiose idea at all that we could improve the WHOLE MIDDLE EAST at a whim....right?

isall

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Right. After 12 years of negotiation, 17 Chapter 7 Resolutions, and Sanctions that solved no other problems but the lives of 1.5 million people - then I was ready to just jump straight into war. You’re a little bit dumb, aren’t you?

---

Except... that it DID work. Saddam's WMD were no more.

And when that was about to be validated, our Admin cut the process short. And all YOU can seem to do, rather than admit that you misjudged the situation, is to defend an unnecessary war ad infinitum ad nauseum.

Which is consistent with your posts on wars in general. There isn't a war or intervention (of ours) that you haven't defended at one point or another, including supplying the Taliban and ObL with arms, Vietnam, Panama, Grenada etc. It doesn't matter what the putative cause, it's all good. Some people might agree with your preference for war, and others disagree, but your pro-war bias is obvious to many people - but not you.

I'm not saying you're a hypocrite. But you really don't KNOW what you think.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Does your model lessen the instabilities presently in Iraq? Does it lower the burden on indebted homeowners?

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Yes, and yes.

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Oh, but I have learned alot from different Posters in this forum, too bad the same can't be said about you.

---

I can't help it if you're uneducable.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
If these are your avowed positions, you hardly gain any credibility by questioning my taking the same position in regards to your beloved little war. And truth be told, I'm right there with ya on at least two of those issues.

---

Have you ever heard of irony?
If I see a confused small child out in the rain near the highway should I stop and help? Why bother, the kids not mine nor did I have anything to do with the circumstances which led to the kid's present situation. Now are you starting to pick up what I'm layin down?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Remember your old sig line about sweeping generalizations always being wrong?

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Yes. You DO realize that it's an ironic statement, don't you? It's a contradiction - if I say that sweeping generalizations are always wrong, then that statement is itself a sweeping generalization, and therefore must be wrong. Do you get it?

---

Most things get wet when it rains, is that statement inherently wrong?
Kwicko can hardly post without besmirching anything republican, is that statement inherently wrong?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
MUST be? Not necessarily. If you throw your lot in with Bush and his cronies and support the Iraq war, then yes.

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It's all black and white to you isn't it. If I question you I must oppose you. You are either against the terrorists or with the terrorists, right?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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And all Muslims are terrorists, right?

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Your words, not mine. Let me guess; you never once said anything along the lines of "we should nuke the entire Middle East" or "Kill 'em all".

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Actually no I have not. See you are still having a problem with that whole irony thing though.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'm not your son. You're not my father, nor any kin to me (thank the fates). And I'm likely older than you are, boy. Don't like the profanity? Change your screen name. Isn't that a four-letter word I see in it?

---

What would you be more comfortable uttering around a five year old, Damn or F#*k.
I guess I'm just remembering a simpler time on this board when cussin' was the exeption, not the rule. Doesn't add anything to the debate, IMHO.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Show some respect for your fellow Posters.

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I show respect for those who earn it.

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No, you do not.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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We all 'get' that you knew everything about everything once it had already happened.

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I don't think you "get" it at all. The party on the right is the party that is essentially saying:

"Warnings about Al Qaeda? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Hunting down Bin Laden? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Liberating Iraq and making it a haven for democracy and a beacon to the Middle East? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Throwing covert operatives under the bus to settle political scores? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Firing U.S. attorneys who didn't want to play ball on caging lists and participate in election fraud? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Responding to natural disasters like Katrina? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Anticipating the mortgage meltdown? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Tanking the economy and devaluing the dollar? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Blowing the "permanent majority" that would keep us forever in power? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Having any credibility on the world diplomatic stage? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Pulling nations together to unite in an effort to eradicate terrorism? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Wiping out the Taliban and Al Qaeda and putting an end to Islamic extremism? Boy, we really screwed that one up...
Getting you cheap oil like Rupert Murdoch promised? Boy, we really screwed that one up..."

---

What you don't seem to get is that it is all moot at this point.
WHO CARES HOW OR WHY THE INVASION TOOK PLACE, IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THA

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I can't help it if you're uneducable.

---

I'm rubber and you're glue.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Just because I do not play the "I told you so" card as freely as some, does not mean I did not know.

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Then, pray tell, how can we know that you aren't just posturing? You SAY you know, but what proof do we have?

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Well I talked to my friends, family, co-workers, internet forums, letters...

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Tell me how you know anything about me...

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Right back atcha, sporto.

---

I think Finn was right, you are kinda dumb.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

Most things get wet when it rains, is that statement inherently wrong?

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BDN, you post too much sillyness to address point by point, so let me just hit this one:

This is not a yes I agree or no I don't statement, you dolt. If by most things you mean rooftops, umbrellas and outdoor vegetation, then yes. If you mean books, most home electronic equipment, or the core of the Earth, then no.

But then again, simple-mindedness doth amuse me, it's been said.

Chrisisall

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
But then again, simple-mindedness doth amuse me, it's been said.

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You are your own best friend.

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Right. After 12 years of negotiation, 17 Chapter 7 Resolutions, and Sanctions that solved no other problems but the lives of 1.5 million people - then I was ready to just jump straight into war.

---

And, as you yourself have pointed out, 12 years and 17 resolutions that were never enforced because of the UN's inherent evilness and corruption, and the US's inherent unwillingness to back UN enforcement... but let's never let that stop us from blaming the UN for what we wouldn't demand they do!

As for your "1.5 million" figure - I don't buy it. That number has gone up and up and up, every time it gets tossed out there. First it was 120,000; then it was 140,000 - and after only a few short iterations, it's now all the way up to 1.5 million! Keep going; before you know it, Saddam will have killed more of his own people than Stalin and Hitler combined.

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You’re a little bit dumb, aren’t you?

---

Could be... could be. Of course, that loses a little of its intended sting when it's coming from the guy who can't tell the difference between "then" and "than", "their", "there" and "they're", "your", "you're" and "yore", and "weather" and "whether"...

So if I'm a "little bit dumb" (congrats on getting that silent "b" in the right place!), where does that leave you? More than a little, I'd wager...




Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

You are your own best friend.

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F**K YOU, man!! That was totally uncalled-for!!! You wanna FIGHT??? Name the place, pal, just name it, and I'll be there to kick you gorram ASS!!!!






*tries not to snicker*

Really, uh, angry Chrisisall

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I can't help it if you're uneducable.

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I'm rubber and you're glue.

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BURN!!!!

Chrisisall

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What you don't seem to get is that it is all moot at this point.
WHO CARES HOW OR WHY THE INVASION TOOK PLACE, IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT IT TOOK PLACE.

---

It doesn't change the fact that it took place - and it doesn't change the fact that the Republicans and this administration got it 100% wrong, time after time after time - yet they still want us to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I don't have a problem with people shooting themselves in the foot now and again. I have a problem when, after doing so, they stop to reload!

As for 5-year-olds and profanity - neither are okay in my view. Are you actually letting your 5-year-old check in here in RWED? You should be ashamed!

'Course, that would explain most of your posts...



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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WHO CARES HOW OR WHY THE INVASION TOOK PLACE, IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT IT TOOK PLACE

---

But if we know HOW and WHY we screwed up, maybe we won't make that mistake again. It's all part of learning... from history, if you can't learn from others. Like I said: I can't help it if you're undeducable.

---------------------------------
It's a wise man who learns from the mistakes of others.

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Gonna re-post this for you, Finn.

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Right. After 12 years of negotiation, 17 Chapter 7 Resolutions, and Sanctions that solved no other problems but the lives of 1.5 million people - then I was ready to just jump straight into war. You’re a little bit dumb, aren’t you?- Finn

Except... that it DID work. Saddam's WMD were no more. And when that was about to be validated, our Admin cut the process short. And all YOU can seem to do, rather than admit that you misjudged the situation, is to defend an unnecessary war ad infinitum ad nauseum.

Which is consistent with your posts on wars in general. There isn't a war or intervention (of ours) that you haven't defended at one point or another, including supplying the Taliban and ObL with arms, Vietnam, Panama, Grenada etc. It doesn't matter what the putative cause, it's all good. Some people might agree with your preference for war, and others disagree, but your pro-war bias is obvious to many people - but not you. I'm not saying you're a hypocrite. You don't KNOW what you think.

---

You yourself said

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There really can never NOT be a good reason to pound on a ruthless dictator.

---

How about... collateral damage? Innocent lives lost?

You see, there are several ways I can think of to defang ruthless tyrants. But they don't involve "pounding on" people. And quite honestly, your major motivation seems to be pounding on people.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Originally posted by SignyM:
But if you know HOW and WHY we screwed up, maybe we won't make that mistake again. It's all part of learning... from history, if you can't learn from others. Like I said: I can't help it if you're undeducable.

---

Please tell me which sovereign nation I want to occupy.
Please tell me how questioning your position means that I am uneducable.
Please tell me why we do not crucify people anymore without you constantly reminding us how the first "major" one went.

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LOL

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I was responding to your statement, which basically went... "Why do we care how and why we got into this mess?" I said nothing at all about you wanting to occupy nations (or not), or you "questioning" my position (because in that statment, you weren't), or crucifixtion (how does THAT relate???). But it DOES say something about learning from history... or not, as the case may be.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
And, as you yourself have pointed out, 12 years and 17 resolutions that were never enforced because of the UN's inherent evilness and corruption, and the US's inherent unwillingness to back UN enforcement... but let's never let that stop us from blaming the UN for what we wouldn't demand they do!

---

I’m not sure what “inherent unwillingness” you’re talking about. The US and the UK were the principle members backing enforcement of resolutions. If weapon inspections did work, it is largely because the US and the UK kept the heat on the UN. It was principally France and Russia who procrastinated, obfuscated and confused the issue to protect their oil contracts and weapons’ sales in Iraq.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
As for your "1.5 million" figure - I don't buy it. That number has gone up and up and up, every time it gets tossed out there. First it was 120,000; then it was 140,000 - and after only a few short iterations, it's now all the way up to 1.5 million! Keep going; before you know it, Saddam will have killed more of his own people than Stalin and Hitler combined.

---

Yeah, well the 1.5 million was the result of several years of oppression, not a single event, so it makes since that it would go through iterations.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Could be... could be. Of course, that loses a little of its intended sting when it's coming from the guy who can't tell the difference between "then" and "than", "their", "there" and "they're", "your", "you're" and "yore", and "weather" and "whether"...

So if I'm a "little bit dumb" (congrats on getting that silent "b" in the right place!), where does that leave you? More than a little, I'd wager...

---

A lazy typer. My typos and your lack of understanding of the history behind the Iraq war are hardly comparable.

---

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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I see you've avoided answering substantive questions. So let's go with something simple:

Why do you keep saying that UN sanctions "didn't solve anything", when they clearly did? Saddam had, in fact, destroyed his WMD. He had no WMD deployed or stockpiled (as Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al kept saying). He wasn't producing them. He didn't have a "program".

But you keep restating your false premise over and over again. As far as I can tell, that means one of two things:

1) You are incapable of incorporating newly acquired facts into your "reality", or...
2) You have a different set of goals aside from WMD, and therefore define success differently.

Now, I'm assuming that you're not delusional, and you ARE capable of appreciating and incorporating novel information into your worldview, even if it contradicts previously-held ideas. So... what's the deal?

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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A lazy typer.

---

So it's just easier for you to hit the "e" key instead of the "a"? I guess you're more than a little bit dumb, eh?



Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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A lazy typer.

---

So it's just easier for you to hit the "e" key instead of the "a"? I guess you're more than a little bit dumb, eh?

---

I impress myself if I can keep my fingers on the home keys.

---

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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I impress myself if I can keep my fingers on the home keys.

---

Finn, I offered you a simple question: WHY do you keep claiming that the UN sanctions "didn't solve anything" when they very clearly did? If you could figure that out, you might learn something useful about yourself. You might find that the problems that YOU wanted solved were not the problems the UN was focusing on, and so "the solution" was unsatisfactory to you. Maybe you were more concerned about what Saddam might do in the future, so your REAL objective was "regime change". Or perhaps you were worried about the possible ending of the "no fly" zones, so your REAL objective was to foster breakaway areas. With a little bit of introspection you might figure out what your REAL objectives were besides WMD, because the WMD problem was over.

Or you might find out that you had misjudged the situation. Perhaps your jaundiced assumptions about the UN prevented you from assessing the latest information. Perhaps your trust in the Administration granted their data too much crdibility. You might create a mental toolkit to help you be more objective in the future.

But apparently you avoid thinking about your own worldview, because you're afraid that insight might require change. And god forbid that you move out of your comfort zone. So you'd rather discuss your typing skills.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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September 12, 2001....

Cheney:
Now's the time we make those bastards pay.

Bush:
Yes- they made me so upset that I held my favourite book upside-down in front of the children!

Cheney:
Not them you idiot- Congress! They get to be our cash cow as we render our final solution to the irritating problem of the Middle East.

Bush:
But the, um, hijacker-payers...I mean...the ones that are responsible-

Cheney:
Oh, we'll get them too, we'll get them all!

Bush:
..the girl, the marbles, the gold watch...

Cheney:
MUHUHUHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

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This is just priceless.

The usual suspects use the precedent of the Iraq war, which they have railed against long and mightily, to justify Russia invading Georgia. Not content with that massive feat of illogic, they go on to once again rail against the very same illegal Iraq war that they claim makes the Georgian war legal.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Oh stop dude, give it a rest.
Really, it's getting old. You just do it for effect now, right?
Saying why the fuss over what Russia is doing is saying it's AS WRONG as our little adventure, the difference is that Russia is invading peeps they have some connection to, whereas we went halfway around the world.

Both wrong- get it? They're both wrong. Both.

Now stopisall

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Geezer:
This is just priceless.

The usual suspects use the precedent of the Iraq war, which they have railed against long and mightily, to justify Russia invading Georgia. Not content with that massive feat of illogic, they go on to once again rail against the very same illegal Iraq war that they claim makes the Georgian war legal.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

---

Well, Geez, I'm not sure if I'm one of your "usual suspects", but I don't recall "justifying" Russia invading, nor do I recall claiming that it was "legal" for them to do so.

I might point out that "the usual suspects" on the right have also tried to justify Russia's actions as ILLEGAL by claiming that when we did the same thing, it was LEGAL. It seems a bit hypocritical to me, sort of like if John Edwards was telling us all how moral we should be - AFTER his affairs and lies to cover it up were revealed!

Russia puts us in a sticky situation. Is it legal? Is it right? Are they justified? Are we supposed to do anything about it? Should we attack them, or should we stand aside? If we support Georgia with military arms and forces, would the Russians then be justified in helping Al Qaeda in Iraq to combat OUR "illegal" invasion and occupation? Russia didn't support our Iraq invasion, but they also didn't come in on the side of Saddam in the matter, either. They stayed out of it, militarily. Is that what we should be doing now? What is our obligation to Georgia, militarily, morally, and legally?

I've tried to point out that it's a bit ironic, and that our own recent actions have taken away much of our moral high ground to really say much of anything about it. They've launched a war - provoked or not - on Georgia on a pretty flimsy pretext. The irony is, we've launched at least one war on an even flimsier pretext. Russia can make the claim that their situation is of more immediate threat and impact to them, since it is occurring not halfway around the world from them, but RIGHT ON THEIR BORDER.

None of which makes it "okay" by me. It's a fucked-up situation, and it's not getting better real soon. Wish I had a simple answer for you as to what to do about it, but I don't.


Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Quote:

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This is just priceless. The usual suspects use the precedent of the Iraq war, which they have railed against long and mightily, to justify Russia invading Georgia. Not content with that massive feat of illogic, they go on to once again rail against the very same illegal Iraq war that they claim makes the Georgian war legal.

---

This is pricless. The people who claimed the USA invasion of Iraq was legal are now claiming the Russian invasion of Georgia was illegal.

BTW- I never said the Russian invasion of Georgia was legal, and (as far as I can tell) no-one else has said so either. So you might want to take that mischaracterization and stick it where the sun don't shine. I have long held that the only reason for war is the immediate defense of self and others against a mortal threat. If it can't be carried out in such as way as to save more people than would be killed, then other avenues should be taken. I thought, for example, that the "no fly" zones were a stellar success. Arms embargoes are another option, as are economic sanctions. (I have a specific form in mind.)

But it's no surprise that you mischaracterize my (and others') postions. Although I do find it touching that you jump to Finn's defense, since he seems to have boxed himself in a corner.


---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Pulling Saddam into line would have been the first step. Remarkably, it had worked to some degree after the first Gulf War - a war which was never aimed at regime change in Iraq, but solely at driving Iraqi forces from Kuwait. George H.W. Bush understood something that Dubya never has: creating a power vacuum in Iraq was a VERY BAD IDEA. You had too many factions, all of which hated each other, but all of which were somewhat held in check by Saddam's ruthless reign. The only way removing him from power was ever going to be workable was if it were done from within.

---

Not really, it was the Arab nations that stopped the war going further, not Bush senior.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Please tell me why we do not crucify people anymore without you constantly reminding us how the first "major" one went.

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Probably because the Classical Roman empire collapsed over a thousand years ago.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Geezer:
This is just priceless.

The usual suspects use the precedent of the Iraq war, which they have railed against long and mightily, to justify Russia invading Georgia. Not content with that massive feat of illogic, they go on to once again rail against the very same illegal Iraq war that they claim makes the Georgian war legal.

---

Who was justifying the Russian invasion of Georgia? Quotes please.

---

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Russian Blackjacks In Venezuela End Yankee Hegemony: Chavez

http://www.spacewar.com/

by Martin Sieff
Washington (UPI) Sep 11, 2008
Two Russian Tupolev Tu-160 White Swan supersonic bombers landed Wednesday night in Venezuela, where they were personally acclaimed by President Hugo Chavez as heralding the end of Yankee imperialism.

The 1,380 miles per hour Tu-160s -- NATO designation Blackjack -- flew into Liberator air base in Venezuela. Fiercely anti-American Chavez greeted them with an address on Venezuelan national television with the words "The Yankee hegemony is finished."

The U.S. Air Force and NATO took the Blackjacks very seriously and sent combat aircraft to shadow them closely in their flight across the Atlantic Ocean.

For the two Tu-160s are historic and strategic game-changers. They can carry 99,000 pounds of munitions, including Mach-2, nuclear-capable X-555 cruise missiles capable of annihilating targets 2,000 miles inland in the continental United States when fired from outside U.S. air space

Sending the beautiful gigantic aircraft -- which look remarkably like the old Concorde supersonic airliner -- to Venezuela marks a serious Russian strategic counter-move to the unprecedented concentration of U.S. and NATO warships in the Black Sea -- regarded by Russia as a private lake for 250 years since the time of the Empress Catherine the Great -- and they are also the most aggressive strategic challenge or gambit the Kremlin has laid down in the Western Hemisphere in at least a quarter of a century.

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by Geezer:
This is just priceless.

The usual suspects use the precedent of the Iraq war, which they have railed against long and mightily, to justify Russia invading Georgia. Not content with that massive feat of illogic, they go on to once again rail against the very same illegal Iraq war that they claim makes the Georgian war legal.

---

I think we've waited long enough for this claim to be substantiated.

The usual suspects lie, in lieu of being incapable of making an argument.

---

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Myth, Meth and the Georgian Invasion
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090831/cockburn
Kirill Benediktov, in his online book on the invasion, reports that these soldiers were equipped--so subsequent searches of bodies and prisoners of war disclosed--not only with NATO-supplied food packages but with sachets of methamphetamine and combat stress pills based on MDMA, aka the active ingredient of Ecstasy. The meth amps up soldiers to kill without mercy, and the MDMA derivative frees them of subsequent debilitating flashbacks and recurring nightmares. Official use of methamphetamine and official testing of MDMA in the US armed forces have been discussed in news stories.

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I think people have no idea how much is orchestrated behind the scenes, and how they are driven like so many bleating sheep to support this or that "movement". Their POV is constructed by a media which fabricates support or indignation. Even today, 30% think that Saddam Hussein was directly involved with 9-11.

The people who decried Iranian suppression of popular movement are the very same people who supported the Honduran military coup.

Sheesh!

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A couple comments on this necropost:

1. Moussavi resoundingly lost the election, according to everyone except our press. Even Moussavi and Israel have admitted it.

2. The US attempt to establish a beachhead in Georgia was well known, as was the ethnic cleansing in the "break away provinces." These provinces are actually sovereign nations handed to Georgia by Georgian dictator and all time villain Joseph Stalin, himself, a Georgian. This was done in the name of the War on Terror, but undoubtedly Georgia didn't want to give up any of Georgia to a US military base.

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Bit of necroposting here. Geezer and Finn were busy blasting the invasion of Russia into South Ossetia, jumping in with judgements before all (or even some) of the facts were known, imputing all of the things to Russia which we (in fact) were doing: fomenting instability, ignoring elected results etc. It has since become WIDELY KNOWN that GEORGIA ATTACKED S OSSETIA.

I was right- Geezer was wrong. Just sayin'.

Quote:

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During the night of 7 to 8 August 2008, Georgia launched a large-scale military attack against South Ossetia, in an attempt to reconquer the territory.

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Georgia goes ‘North Korea’ with bombshell plan to ban main opposition parties

https://www.politico.eu/article/georgia-opposition-ban-georgian-dream-
party-election-eu-enlargement-irakli-kobakhidze/

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Meduza a Russian- and English-language independent news website, headquartered in Riga, Latvia.

https://meduza.io/en/news/2024/11/16/opposition-leader-claims-abkhazia
-s-separatist-president-has-fled-to-russian-military-base-amid-protests

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Georgia: Violent clashes break out in Tbilisi as government suspends talks on joining EU

https://news.sky.com/video/georgia-violent-clashes-break-out-in-tbilis
i-as-government-suspends-talks-on-joining-eu-13262780

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Fifth Georgian president: Putin hasn’t won the peace yet
https://www.dw.com/en/fifth-georgian-president-putin-hasnt-won-the-pea
ce-yet/video-71629833

'Europeans hold bitter memories of negotiating ceasefires with Putin'
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/opinion/article/2025/02/19/europeans-hold-bi
tter-memories-of-negotiating-ceasefires-with-putin_6738321_23.html

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Tens of thousands in Tbilisi mourn Georgia’s late Patriarch Ilia II

https://www.yahoo.com/news/videos/tens-thousands-tbilisi-mourn-georgia
-053216483.html

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Russia Ramps Up Missile Production as Ukraine Runs Dry

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