Well, I cried.

POSTED BY: Geezer
UPDATED: Sunday, May 23, 2004 11:02
VIEWED: 22510
PAGE 1 of 1

GEEZER

Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:05 AM

Select to view spoiler:

...at Wes's death, and Ilyria/Fred's response.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

INSANESPIKE

Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:06 AM

I'm still picking my jaw up off the floor from the ending. As they said in "Once More, With Feeling".......where do we go from here?

"How drunk was I last night?"

SEAFORT

Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:09 AM

I just saw the end. Loved the last line.

I'm gonna have to process this a bit more while I sleep.

I really loved the last line though.

"The cosmic baker took us out of the oven a little too early, and that's the reason we're as crazy as we are..."

EST120

Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:12 AM

i agree. last line was great. perfect, in fact.

MAUGWAI

Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:13 AM

Me too. And did anybody else feel like a dumbass when he said "wolf, ram and hart"? Never occurred to me before. I can't find my notes on the Divine Comedy, but I think those are the three beasts that waylay Dante on his path through the woods. Which would make sense, since Lilah gave Wes the Inferno as a gift and, well, the whole Hell thing.

Select to view spoiler:

I loved Hamilton's expression when he realized he screwed up. I was wondering how in the hell Angel was going to beat him.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

SEAFORT

Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:14 AM

You know what else just hit me?

That was the last "Mutant Enemy" GRRR ARRGGGHH that you'll hear on broadcast TV.

At least for a good long while.

It's the little things that make me sad

"The cosmic baker took us out of the oven a little too early, and that's the reason we're as crazy as we are..."

IANING

Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:21 AM

The worst bit was the "Wb's Thanks" at the end. Yeah thanks a ton.

Go watch some Firefly to chear me up.

SEAFORT

Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:23 AM

Yeah. I'm touched they were so moved by our loyalty.

They really care.

But anyway, water under the bridge, it's over.

"The cosmic baker took us out of the oven a little too early, and that's the reason we're as crazy as we are..."

SLOWSMURF

Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:24 AM

Yeah, that pissed me off too.

But god damn, THAT was a series finale. I love the way Joss can make the non cliffhanger cliffhangers. That wasn't a cliffhanger, at all, yet it could be.

Just like the end of season 4.

KNIBBLET

Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by maugwai:
Me too. And did anybody else feel like a dumbass when he said "wolf, ram and hart"?...

The episodes when they were in Pylea had a scene where Angel was looking at three books and on the cover of each was a different animal, the wolf, the ram and the hart.

He put them together and realized that the dimension was controlled by Wolfram and Hart. It was the first time I'd seen them as three entities and not two - and the moment that I slapped my forehead and had the same realization about Dante you just described.

Ilyria also makes mention of when the demons controlled the Earth and the wolf, ram and hart were weak and beneath her notice.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

WINTERFELL

Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:36 AM

Dammit.... i cried too... f*ck that was good tv...

PARADIGMSHIFT

Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:52 AM

I liked it, but at the same time, I had some major problems with it, too.

1) There was no even minimal setup of the Harmony/Hamilton thing. Not even something we could look back and and say, 'oh, hey! that's that that meant!' That felt a bit forced.
2) Wesley's death. To me, it seemed like they felt obliged to kill someone off, so, for no reason, they killed him. The lack of *reason* there was what left me with a dissatisfied feel. I do believe I would have loved this episode if it had ended the exact same way, but it kept the group intact.

So, that's my weigh in.

Sorry to rain on everyone else's joy about this one, but I couldn't feel the same.

Paradigm Shift

KUKOO

Thursday, May 20, 2004 3:02 AM

I loved seeing a series finale that did not tie everything up with a cheesy neat little bow. Instead, it dared to go to farther then any other episode in the series and take us to the darkest place in Jossverse yet while maintaining the theme of the series.... That it is the fight that is important, not who wins or loses. As Mal said (and I am paraphrasing as I cannot remember the exact quote) "It may have been the losing side, but I am still not sure if it was the wrong one".

In addition loved the nods to longtime fans with Anne's return and Spike reading the poem that he wrote the night he became a Vampire.

And F**k the WB with the thank for your loyalty crap at the end, may they go to the special hell.

STEVE580

Thursday, May 20, 2004 3:07 AM

"Would you like me to lie to you now?" "Yes."
Yeah, that was a damn sad scene; one of the most emotional scenes from a Whedon show ever. Sucks so much that he died; I was hoping it'd be Lorne, or Gunn. I like them both, but Wes is just so *cool*.

Damn, I seriously when Angel first stumbled into the alley and looked around that he was the only one who had survived. I thought there would be a montage of him waiting in the alley, and then the sun would come up, and he'd walk off alone, and it would fade to Joss Whedon's name. I was soo glad to hear Spike's 'Boo'. And when Gunn stumbled in, that was cool too.

My question? How the fuck were they planning on having a sixth season? They lost Lorne, Harmony, Wesley, and Gunn in this episode. So, season six would be Spike and Angel with the blue gal?

I loved that this ep had such funny lines, though! "Can I deny you three times?" and the line about not wearing jewlry; Harmony's betrayal; Angel's "I kinda hoped this fight would be going better"; funny stuff. I loved the fact that Conner was in the episode; and what's more, he fought. Fred was in it, sort of. Plus Illrya started to become humaner; the beginning of Fred's return?

Well, Joss has said before that this isn't the end of the Buffyverse. So I won't give up hope...I mean, I didn't with Firefly, and now we're getting a 35 billion dollar movie.

EST120

Thursday, May 20, 2004 3:11 AM

close. dante ran into a leopard, a lion and a she-wolf in the woods before he meets virgil in the inferno.

ELYSIAN

Thursday, May 20, 2004 3:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:
My question? How the fuck were they planning on having a sixth season? They lost Lorne, Harmony, Wesley, and Gunn in this episode. So, season six would be Spike and Angel with the blue gal?

To be honest I don't think this is quite the way he would have ended it had there going to have been a sixth season. They knew they'd be no sixth season so they had nothing to lose. They'd pulled out all the stops and just let it roll. Good on them! Though I still wish they hadn't killed Wesley.

Quote:
Well, Joss has said before that this isn't the end of the Buffyverse. So I won't give up hope...I mean, I didn't with Firefly, and now we're getting a 35 billion dollar movie.

It better not be the end. I'm still hoping for another tv series. They obviously won't have it ready by fall, but a mid-season replacement would be cool. Spike, all the way! Illyria can come too. I won't mind.

DELIA

Thursday, May 20, 2004 3:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ParadigmShift:
I liked it, but at the same time, I had some major problems with it, too.

1) There was no even minimal setup of the Harmony/Hamilton thing. Not even something we could look back and and say, 'oh, hey! that's that that meant!' That felt a bit forced.
2) Wesley's death. To me, it seemed like they felt obliged to kill someone off, so, for no reason, they killed him. The lack of *reason* there was what left me with a dissatisfied feel. I do believe I would have loved this episode if it had ended the exact same way, but it kept the group intact.

So, that's my weigh in.

Sorry to rain on everyone else's joy about this one, but I couldn't feel the same.

Paradigm Shift

I wasn't sure whether to take it as Harmony had been in on it with Hamilton all along, or if that was just how she had decided to keep him busy.

As for Wesley's death (over which I went to pieces -- crying from the moment Illyria walked through the door, sobbing by "I've missed you"), I don't think it was just an "obligation" death. In a way, Wesley had to die, because there was nothing else left for him (he had no "perfect day"). His death had to be "meaningless" in order to have meaning, at least with the viewers. It's the meaningless deaths (Joyce, Tara) that hit the hardest. Plus, Alexis Denisof got one hell of a death scene. Now, where's his Emmy nomination?

___________________________________________
WESLEY : Feng shui.
GUNN: Right. What's that mean again?
WESLEY: That people will believe anything.

ALIENZOOKEEPER

Thursday, May 20, 2004 4:06 AM

Agreed. He deserves it, and also for helping carry the show. I know that it's called 'Angel', but Wes- well, to quote Mal, "He's my hero!"

The stuff with Linsey and Lorne, that i didn't get. Why the lair of middle eastern demons, why those two, why...

BTW, was that 'zilla or 'thulhu, coming down the alley ;-)

"I got mine."

vince the alien zookeeper

SHADOWVESSEL

Thursday, May 20, 2004 4:24 AM

What can I say? I had hopes that there'd be TV movies next year, but that looks like it won't happen now. So, guess I have to accept it as it is. The end of Angel. I remember Joss said something in an interview about how the end of the series would make the point of Angel. The never-ending battle against evil is just that... it never ends. I think he did quite the job on that point.

I thought Wes' death did have meaning. It meant, if Fred's soul is somewhere on another plane of existence and not destroyed, that he's finally at peace and with the woman he loves. And the scene itself... Best Death Scene Ever. I admit I cried also.

I don't get how Gunn took on a whole room of vampires and won. I mean, even Buffy never took on more than a room full of vamps alone and she's a freakin' Slayer! What's his power?

The only thing that pissed me off was when Angel signed over the Shan-shu prophecy. Was it nessesary to remove all hope? I kept thinking that he was gonna get it back and burn it or something. Guess it really is over.

And I really didn't realize that Jayne/Hamilton was so freakin' BIG! You notice that side view of him and Angel standing in front of each other? Angel's head came to his neck.

Here's to five, no actually eight, years of THE vampire with a soul. And also to the end of an era as Mutant Enemy takes it's final walk across our screen.

"Well personally, I want to slay the dragon."

(Gorramn Double Post)
"I'll be in my bunk."

DELIA

Thursday, May 20, 2004 4:24 AM

I got, from a storytelling point of view, why Lorne killed Lindsey -- it was unexpected, and it was a subversion of the showdown we'd all been expecting since we saw Eve crawl into bed with him in November. And I think I'm reading correctly that Angel told Lorne to do it, because Lindsey could never be trusted, though that flies in the face of the whole "redemption" theme. The whole show could have used a bit more explanation -- when will they figure out that these Whedon shows NEED two hour finales?

___________________________________________
WESLEY : Feng shui.
GUNN: Right. What's that mean again?
WESLEY: That people will believe anything.

DELIA

Thursday, May 20, 2004 4:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by InsaneSpike:
I'm still picking my jaw up off the floor from the ending. As they said in "Once More, With Feeling".......where do we go from here?

Well, I contemplated going straight into the bathtub with a toaster, but settled on sinful amounts of chocolate ice cream, instead.

___________________________________________
WESLEY : Feng shui.
GUNN: Right. What's that mean again?
WESLEY: That people will believe anything.

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

Thursday, May 20, 2004 5:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ParadigmShift:

2) Wesley's death. To me, it seemed like they felt obliged to kill someone off, so, for no reason, they killed him. The lack of *reason* there was what left me with a dissatisfied feel. I do believe I would have loved this episode if it had ended the exact same way, but it kept the group intact.

But didn't you see how happy he looked when he "saw fred" and knew he would be with her once more?

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
MAL: This is my scrap of nowhere. You go on and find your own.
SAFFRON: You can't just leave me here, on this
lifeless piece of crap moon...
MAL: Sure I can.
SAFFRON: I'll die.
MAL: Well, as a courtesy, you might start
getting busy on that, cause all this chatter ain't doin' me any kindness.

DTT

Thursday, May 20, 2004 5:09 AM

Couple of my fav. lines that haven't been mentioned yet were Connor's (which is weird, because I never really though his character was all that great):

Angel: "I have really great handwriting."
Connor: "You girl."

Connor: "You stop by for a cup of coffee and the world's NOT ending? Come on." --classic Joss dialogue

"You didn't have to wound that man."
"Yeah, I know. It was just funny."

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

Thursday, May 20, 2004 5:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ShadowVessel:

And I really didn't realize that Jayne/Hamilton was so freakin' BIG! You notice that side view of him and Angel standing in front of each other? Angel's head came to his neck.

Their are ways of filming to make one look bigger than the other... i know that Adam Baldwin is quite strapping, but it could be possible that they filmed adam a lot closer than they did David.... just a thought.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
MAL: This is my scrap of nowhere. You go on and find your own.
SAFFRON: You can't just leave me here, on this
lifeless piece of crap moon...
MAL: Sure I can.
SAFFRON: I'll die.
MAL: Well, as a courtesy, you might start
getting busy on that, cause all this chatter ain't doin' me any kindness.

DELIA

Thursday, May 20, 2004 5:18 AM

To add another favorite line that hasn't been mentioned (and could be paraphrasing slightly here, since if I go rewatch it I'll start crying again) --

Angel: "You people who don't care about anything never understand the one who do."
Hamilton: "Yes, but we don't care."

___________________________________________
WESLEY : Feng shui.
GUNN: Right. What's that mean again?
WESLEY: That people will believe anything.

LINDALE

Thursday, May 20, 2004 5:25 AM

re: the end

It was perfect. absolutely perfect. I suppose I can see why some might be mad about it, thinking it lacks closure, but I think it couldn't and shouldn't have been any different. Just as Buffy and the Scooby's were talking about going to the mall right after the apocolypse in "Chosen", which is so very Buffy, this ending was unique to AtS. And, btw, it's gotten me off the spoilers for good. Because omg was it an amazing feeling to see

Select to view spoiler:

"Guest stars- Vincent Karthesier (or however it's spelled)" and have the reaction be "omg! omg! Connor! Connor's gonna show up!!", as opposed to knowing beforehand. Or, you know, going "omg! omg! it's Anne!! that's AWESOME!" when she showed up. (I did quite a bit of omg-ing tonight...).

Anyhoo, kudos to Joss and everyone else at ME. oh, and a huge thanks to Jeff Bell, for (co-) writing and directing a great finale.

GRACEOM

Thursday, May 20, 2004 5:30 AM

And speaking of lines, don't forget:

"I want you, Lindsay."

Okay, maybe it's just me, but I couldn't stop laughing at that one.

Grace

KASUO

Thursday, May 20, 2004 5:55 AM

Spike uttered a line about wishes and horses! He did it again! Ahhhh!

________
"Let's moon 'em!"

DARTHVEGAS

Thursday, May 20, 2004 6:30 AM

What a great ending! The only thing that was missing was Buffy at his side. OH and another fricken season!!
Firefly, Angel, Farscape... all gone. Sniff, and yet ER, and Everyone Loves Raymond is going to back, no justice. That's it, no more TV (except for CBC hockey and Olympics coverage. Oh OK, and Stargate...

"Well personally, I want to slay the dragon. Let's get to work!"

CATHERWOOD

Thursday, May 20, 2004 6:49 AM

(still learning how to use the reply feature...)

Quote:
I don't get how Gunn took on a whole room of vampires and won. I mean, even Buffy never took on more than a room full of vamps alone and she's a freakin' Slayer! What's his power?

Gunn mentioned his peeps coming along to help out. Gah, what did he call them, the fang gang? There was a subtle reference to them when Gunn asked Anne about whether they were keeping the vamps in check around her halfway house. It was yet another loose end thread which needed to be tied up, Gunn's street roots.

I honestly had a dream with Adam Baldwin in it *last* night. I can't wait to see what I dream about tonight.

TOMANTA

Thursday, May 20, 2004 6:59 AM

Ok, just finished it myself [I recorded it and watched it with my brother when he got home].

I enjoyed it overall, but felt it was too short - at least 30 minutes longer was needed, if not a full hour [come on, they don't even go after the bad guys until the last act! I want to know how much was cut from the script...].

Wesley's death: Sad, because Wes is one of my favorite characters and has undoubtably had the most character development in the Buffyverse... but his story was really over. I didn't like the fight, though. Maybe it's just because I wanted Wes to use that cool shotgun or dual pistols =P.

Lindsey: I sort of get why Angel had it done, and it shows that Angel HAS changed during his time at W&H.

The final scene: Great, stunning contrast to Buffy's finale.

Highlight, and most shocking moment of the episode: Anne! [Second goes to Lorne killing Lindsey, but it was telegraphed].

Overall, I enjoyed this season, but I think it might have been better served if it could have been a little less episodic.

"FOX! Where the shit hits the fans." - Tim Minear

SOUPCATCHER

Thursday, May 20, 2004 7:22 AM

Adam Baldwin is 6'4" and David Boreanaz is 6'1", according to IMDB anyway.

The camera angle made it look like much more than three inches. Tricky tricky.

I shaved off my beard for you, devil woman!

SOUPCATCHER

Thursday, May 20, 2004 7:32 AM

In addition loved the nods to longtime fans with Anne's return

Anne? Did I miss something?

I shaved off my beard for you, devil woman!

ANGELDOVE

Thursday, May 20, 2004 8:35 AM

Sorry that I rambled on…"I'm flawed in that way. I sometimes go on. It's been said..."

I loved the ending, and yes I did cry too.
I, without hesitation, felt that Wes's death was in no way obligatory. It was perfect in everyway, "Would you like me to lie to you now?" "Yes, I would"
And though it was mentioned how great Alexis's performance was, I have to say that Amy stole the show.
And I also loved that it ended on Angel's line: "Personally, I want to slay the dragon" What could have been better for a knight to say?
Joss Whedon knows how to end a series. To me, that episode was as perfect as the original series ending of BTVS in "The Gift" I know Buffy died, but what was more perfect than the slayer finishing her duties the way all slayers in the past have done...

But I digress

The best parts of the show for me:
Wes's death & Fred's return to guide him to her for all eternity
Conner's return in the capacity of a healthy and happy relationship with his father
Angel's last line of the series, as well as the fact that they went out fighting

My two issues (petty)
I really wanted a great uplifting Angel speech...like the ones from "Deep Down" (The Champion speech), and "Epiphany" (the speech where he finally recognizes the reality of his purpose)...(However, I have not re-watched the episode, or read a transcript of it, so I may find a monumental diatribe in there somewhere)
And Angel's comment to Harmony that it has been so long since he has been human that he doesn't remember it, not so long ago in "I Will Remember You" I know the day did not happen in actuality, but he does remember it, and thus should remember how it felt.
So....I am posting those favorite speeches because I love them so much (if anyone knows of one from this final episode, please let me know, I have a collection of these from both ATS and BTVS that I would like to add it to)

Quote:
Epiphany
Angel: In the greater scheme or the big picture, nothing we do matters. There's no grand plan, no big win. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. - I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward - finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world.

Quote:
Deep Down
Angel: What you did to me - was unbelievable, Connor. - But then I got stuck in a hell dimension by my girlfriend one time for a hundred years, so three months under the ocean actually gave me perspective. Kind of a M. C. Esher perspective - but I did get time to think. About us, about the world. - Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. - It's harsh, and cruel. -But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be.

Oh..and the others on my list (like you care, but I'll mention them anyway), Spike's speech on Love in "Lover's Walk", Angel's cliffside argument with Buffy in "Amends", as well as Angel's narrative on passion in "Passion", and finally Buffy's death voice-over in "The Gift" each gives me goose bumps again and again...

Oh yeah, and the WB can go

and "gun HOE-tze bee DIO-se" The only thing I liked about it was the montage of ATS moments, it reminded me of the great montage at the beginning of BTVS's "The Gift"

I can't believe that the overwhelming outcry of the fans earned us nothing...I don't mean to be pessimistic, but I really do believe this is the end of the Buffyverse, however, sometimes I think that I am just trying to let go with a clean break and not dwell on the possibilities of a resurrection...it'll just hurt that much more when there isn't one.

ELFRENETICO

Thursday, May 20, 2004 11:13 AM

What a sad, wonderful episode. Our last fresh “Grrrr…Aarrgghh” for the foreseeable future. For Joss to put Anne in the last episode really ties the whole universe together. This side character actually has a very complete story arc through the two series.

I’m not sure why Lorne goes off on his own. I mean, I get that he’s conflicted by Angel’s morally ambiguous path, but isn’t Wolfram & Hart going to come down as hard on him as everyone else? Wouldn’t it be better to fight to the last with the team than meet his fate alone in some Margarita Ville?

When Illyria asks Wes if he wants to be lied to, does that mean Fred & he won’t be united after death? Or just the whole not really Fred thing?

Gotta love the fact that instead of the traditional “Kill the big Bad guy” at the end of most seasons we got too see each character kill a “little” bad guy. I also like the fact that we never see the Wolf, Ram & Hart. It makes them far creepier. The last shot of the team ready for action with Gunn in the shadows practically keeling over was powerful.

Nothing to look forward to now except a monthly comic book from Joss & then the movie.

WINTERFELL

Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:57 PM

i really think the Lorne story arc was great. He may have helped angel and co. over and over again, but he, like harmony, never seemed to be part of the team to me. Lorne was like the side man that always helped out whenever he could, and it was very noble of him to do so.. but I think he never wanted that lifestyle. He came to Earth to get away from the champion gig.. I thought it was very fitting to see him finally make the choice to go back to that. It's not like it was some big suprise either, he's been depressed and angry for a while now.

As far as him "murdering" Lindsy... i dunno if i could call it that.. Lindsey wanted very badly to join the circle of the black thorn. He always comes back evil no matter how many times you think he's going to reform. Plus.. take into account what Lorne said before he shot him.

Lindsy: I could sing for ya?
Lorne: Oh, i've heard you sing... ::bang bang::

I think this is an indication that Lorne knew Lindsey was an enemy and would crush all of them the moment he could. So, I can't give my green buddy any grief for it.

Also, speaking of harmony.. glad she went evil again too. It draws the line between vampires with souls and vampires without them.

one other thing.. wow.. WB.. you got some balls showing that "thank you" message at the end there. If any of the WB folks would have been in the room with me when that had aired, I'd have f*cking put them on the floor.

HARPIE

Thursday, May 20, 2004 3:35 PM

*runs from room at the sight of spoilers*
Careful with the spoilers, some of us haven't seen the last episode yet
That said, I can't believe it was only an hour. How can you wrap everything up after five years in only an hour?

Trekkie,Browncoat,Leaper,MSTie

PHOENIXSHIP

Thursday, May 20, 2004 4:42 PM

My funniest moment: Spike at the poetry slam getting applause for using the word effulgent! What a fitting triumph for our bleach vamp.

Most shocking moment: Lorne taking out Lyndsey. I liked both characters so much, it was like they both died. Lorne's earlier cryptic comments make sense now. He's a side character who I could always get more of. It just came out of nowhere.

Worst Moment: WB's syrupy, condescending "Thank You" Fuck off and die, you money-grubbing weasels.

"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"

DELIA

Thursday, May 20, 2004 5:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenixship:

Most shocking moment: Lorne taking out Wesley. I liked both characters so much, it was like they both died. Lorne's earlier cryptic comments make sense now. He's a side character who I could always get more of. It just came out of nowhere.

Did you mean Lindsey?

___________________________________________
WESLEY : Feng shui.
GUNN: Right. What's that mean again?
WESLEY: That people will believe anything.

PHOENIXSHIP

Thursday, May 20, 2004 5:25 PM

woops - Lyndsey. Of Course.

"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"

DELIA

Thursday, May 20, 2004 6:02 PM

Phoenixship,

No worries. Although, Lorne's shooting Wesley twice certainly would have been a pretty shocking way to take those two characters out of the story!

Delia

___________________________________________
WESLEY : Feng shui.
GUNN: Right. What's that mean again?
WESLEY: That people will believe anything.

STEVE580

Thursday, May 20, 2004 6:10 PM

With regards to Spike's poem - is that the one he wrote the night he became a vampire? Because that poem used the word 'effulgent', didn't it?

DELIA

Thursday, May 20, 2004 6:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:
Two questions - The poem Spike read, is that the one he wrote the night he became a vampire? Because that poem used the word 'effulgent', didn't it?
Second, who is anne?

EDIT: Yes, the poem is the one heard in the Buffy episode "Fool for Love."

Anne is the character we first met in the Buffy episode Lie to Me, as Chantarelle. Then she turned up in the Buffy episode Anne as Lily. Finally, she had appeared twice on Angel as Anne, in Blood Money and The Thin Dead Line. She changed her name each time she took on a new persona, finally taking the name Anne from Buffy (who used it, her middle name, when she ran away after having to kill Angel) and coming into her own.

___________________________________________
WESLEY : Feng shui.
GUNN: Right. What's that mean again?
WESLEY: That people will believe anything.

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

Thursday, May 20, 2004 6:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kasuo:
Spike uttered a line about wishes and horses! He did it again! Ahhhh!

________
"Let's moon 'em!"

I noticed that too...i would have laughed but i was to choked up over wes' death and Illyria's reaction to it.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
MAL: This is my scrap of nowhere. You go on and find your own.
SAFFRON: You can't just leave me here, on this
lifeless piece of crap moon...
MAL: Sure I can.
SAFFRON: I'll die.
MAL: Well, as a courtesy, you might start
getting busy on that, cause all this chatter ain't doin' me any kindness.

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

Thursday, May 20, 2004 7:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Elfrenetico:

When Illyria asks Wes if he wants to be lied to, does that mean Fred & he won’t be united after death? Or just the whole not really Fred thing?

This comes from the conversation Wes had with Illyria earlier when Wes said that the first thing he learned as a watcher was to spread the truth from the illusion and since he had no intention on dying he did not want Illyria to 'lie' to him by assuming Fred's form, but since he was dying, it was fitting that he died 'happy'

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
MAL: This is my scrap of nowhere. You go on and find your own.
SAFFRON: You can't just leave me here, on this
lifeless piece of crap moon...
MAL: Sure I can.
SAFFRON: I'll die.
MAL: Well, as a courtesy, you might start
getting busy on that, cause all this chatter ain't doin' me any kindness.

STILLSHINY

Thursday, May 20, 2004 7:27 PM

My wife liked the whole

Select to view spoiler:

Wesley is dead, I am grieved for him, I can't control it, I want to do more violence.

I gotta say for as much as the WB "thank you" bit pissed me off! I'd have been far more upset had they done nothing. You have to know there had to be some folk st the WB who did not agree with the suits, I feel that moment was from them.

I have a friend who used to work at WB, she got me hooked up with the Series Finale poster.

http://static.thewb.com/downloads/poster/TheWB_AngelFinale.pdf

It says "His last stand will be his finest hour.

I'll add more thoughts as they come to me.

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that had all those people on it. Damn." --Joss

DELIA

Thursday, May 20, 2004 7:40 PM

About the thank you thing -- when did Angel get to be 277? In Halloween, they said he was 18 in 1775, which would put his birth in 1757, and make him 247 in 2004. He said he was 243 in Earshot, which was 1999, which would make him 248 in 2004. Either way, where did the extra thirty years come from?

___________________________________________
WESLEY : Feng shui.
GUNN: Right. What's that mean again?
WESLEY: That people will believe anything.

DTT

Thursday, May 20, 2004 8:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Delia:
Either way, where did the extra thirty years come from?

Maybe from the WB not having a clue? Fuck you very much, frog.

"You didn't have to wound that man."
"Yeah, I know. It was just funny."

HJERMSTED

Thursday, May 20, 2004 8:48 PM

All in all a more satisfying finale than was Buffy's. Only because the Buffy finale felt like it needed an extra hour far more than the Angel finale did.

Not that I would've complained about an extra hour last night, mind you.

Select to view spoiler:

I think Wesley's death is the only death that would've carried any emotional weight at this point (short of Angel at Spike's death bed or vice versa.. either would have been a BIG death but neither romantic).

I hope Gunn survives somehow. I liked that character. Ilyria was really starting to grow on me... great performance from Amy Acker!

The Spike poetry slam was priceless!! He even dedicated the poem to Cecily! Give that character his own series!!

Lindsey has always been a loose cannon. Angel used this fact to his advantage and then did away with the cannon before it pointed itself back at him. Having Lorne take out Lindsey was a surprise... to Lindsey mostly.

Seeing Anne again was fun. How cool is it that that actress gets to be in the Angel finale, but SMG does not?

Harmony... another loose cannon but not so threatening that she needs dusting, apparently. But really... hasn't this always been the case?

BTW: Both Drew Goddard and Jeffrey Bell are apparently signed on to write Alias next season!!

mattro

KELLAINA

Thursday, May 20, 2004 8:54 PM

What did the Thank You message say?

(Just curious - in Canada we got nothing but commercials)

KILLEDBYRIVERSBRAIN

Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:16 PM

Quote:
"Personally, I want to slay the dragon" What could have been better for a knight to say?

I am in complete agreement, thought of it in almost exactly those words. I lost it when he said that. I was laughing, cheering and declaring it the best line I've ever heard end a series when I nearly fell off of my couch when the credits suddenly rolled.

There was so much perfection in this episode. Spike's getting applause for his effulgent poem was such a simple but incredibly thought out moment. Wesley and Illyria's part was awesome, and I agree that it felt right for Wesley to die. I never saw Lorne's killing Lindsay coming, and I just kind of sat there trying to figure out what had just happened. The new Connor makes me wish that guy had been in the series more often (old Connor made me angrier by the second for out whining Luke Skywalker).

My roommate told me I would really hate the WB's thank you at the end, and I figured he was wrong, that it wouldn't bother me too much. Damn he was right; they'd barely said two words of their paltry thanks and I had had enough of that nonsense.

Screw the crap that passes for television today. We've just lost something.

Kudos to everyone involved in the show though, but please give us some form of encore.

I hope you like Guinness, sir. I find it a refreshing substitute for . . . food.
-Jack O'Neill

PHOENIXSHIP

Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:17 PM

It was a kind of generic, network-flavored recap of the last 5 years. Could be interpreted as a kind of back-handed nod to the SaveAngel campaign, or maybe it was a real thank you. Ironic that a series that (to WB) was deemed worthy of cancellation was given a most unusual kiss off.

Either way, it was not sufficient, obviously. It felt hypocritical.

"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"

INSANESPIKE

Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:21 PM

Quote:
Either way, where did the extra thirty years come from?

Remember, this math is coming from the same company that said Angel was "falling" in ratings, even when it showed something along the lines of 30% increase. I really don't think math is the WB's strong suit. The way they figure things, we're lucky they didn't advertise Angel's age as being 500.

So, in conclusion....

WB

"How drunk was I last night?"

DAVCO92

Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:45 PM

Hmmm...FOX+WB...
2 by 2, hands of blue...

Burn the land, boil the sea...

DELIA

Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by InsaneSpike:
Remember, this math is coming from the same company that said Angel was "falling" in ratings, even when it showed something along the lines of 30% increase. I really don't think math is the WB's strong suit. The way they figure things, we're lucky they didn't advertise Angel's age as being 500.

Maybe someone took those extra 30 rating points and added them to his age?

___________________________________________
WESLEY : Feng shui.
GUNN: Right. What's that mean again?
WESLEY: That people will believe anything.

INSANESPIKE

Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:52 PM

Quote:
Maybe someone took those extra 30 rating points and added them to his age?

Hmm...that would explain where they conveniently disappeared too....lol

"How drunk was I last night?"

SHADOWVESSEL

Thursday, May 20, 2004 10:23 PM

Quote:
I really wanted a great uplifting Angel speech...like the ones from "Deep Down" (The Champion speech), and "Epiphany" (the speech where he finally recognizes the reality of his purpose)...(However, I have not re-watched the episode, or read a transcript of it, so I may find a monumental diatribe in there somewhere)

Would last week's episode's, the "first half" of the series finale, "revelation" speech count? I must have watched that speech five or six times while waiting for this week's final episode.

Since I'm back, there's some other things I'd like to add.

I loved the Conner tie-up. He's happy, well adjusted, knows and appreciates that Angel's his dad, and he's still a bad-ass. I feel Angel finally beat Holtz. Now I can go back and watch my Season 3 DVD's without copping a resentment after I'm through.

Looking back on Wes' death at work today, I realized something. It shows yet again how much bigger "Angel"'s balls are than "Buffy..."'s. In "Chosen" when they chose to kill off one of the group, they killed Anya. She was OK, but woopty-doo. It would've been like killing off Lorne. But what did the people at "Angel" do? They killed off the last remaining original member of the show other than Angel himself. That's just another difference between "Buffy...", and the show for grown-ups. Hell, they only killed one person and Xander lost an eye! Not counting Slayer extras. But the grown-up show... Doyle, Cordelia, Fred, Wes, Gunn (who would be dead in 10 minutes), and the immortal heroes facing impending death... I'm at a loss for words. Joss said, long ago, he would end the show one day by killing everybody off. Well, he stuck to it.

And I loved the line so much I said it again:
"Well personally, I kinda want to slay the dragon. Lets go to work." CLANG!!!

(Gorramn Double Post)

"I'll be in my bunk."

STILLSHINY

Thursday, May 20, 2004 10:42 PM

MY T-SHIRT design

give me the picture of Angel with the sword drawn.

and on the back I want this quote

"Well personally, I kinda want to slay the dragon. Lets go to work."

with the dates series beginning - series end

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that had all those people on it. Damn." --Joss

SERENITYVALLEY

Thursday, May 20, 2004 11:30 PM

My opinion:

The poem thing was the best joke all season. I as soon as he said "buldge in" or whatever, I KNEW what word he was going to rhyme it with.

Select to view spoiler:

LINDSEY!!!! *cry* Plus, Lorne shouldn't have had to kill someone! That's sad

The ending. What the heck? Please tell me this will be resolved in TV movie(s).

Thrilled to see Anne.

Poor Wes.

Poor Markus. I didn't like the whole Harmony thing. It didn't really make any sense. Plus, we sort of already saw that sort of thing with Lindsey and Eve. Speaking of which. She didn't do much in that episode. Neither did Connor really. Joss should have surprised us with someone no one expected to see again. Maybe OZ or something.

Oh, and Lindsey's line about how he's glad Angel never touched Eve? Priceless.

http://www.simple-assault.com/Firefly.htm

KARENKAY99

Friday, May 21, 2004 12:39 AM

me too. and i had to watched it again tonight so i could cry again.

it was a pretty good show though. a little rushed like someone else said. strange how it was sort of a cliffhanger but still so finished. i keep thinking about what could happen next. so, ok guys, how ya going to get out of this one?
illyria was really ready for some more violence. did gunn really only have 10 minutes left? could angel really slay a ... ? was wesley really ...?

ol well, guess i get to make up whatever i want now.

"They say the snow on the roof is too heavy. They say the ceiling will cave in. His brains are in terrible danger."

MAUGWAI

Friday, May 21, 2004 12:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by est120:
close. dante ran into a leopard, a lion and a she-wolf in the woods before he meets virgil in the inferno.

Well crap. I'm all wrong. I guess Lionwolf and Leopard would have been a weird name for a lawfirm.

Then what's the significance of the wolf, the ram, and the hart? Things we hunt? Is there some mythology I'm not remembering?

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

ANKHAGOGO

Friday, May 21, 2004 1:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ShadowVessel:
Quote:
I really wanted a great uplifting Angel speech...like the ones from "Deep Down" (The Champion speech), and "Epiphany" (the speech where he finally recognizes the reality of his purpose

Actually, I was never a big fan of the speeches. I loved the simplicity of their parting -- no words, just actions. I thought it was much more moving.
And one of my very, very favourite things was Angel's attitude. He was resigned to the facthe was probably going to die horrifically, and he showed no remorse or regret at that knowledge. He made his decision and went for it, four-on-the-floor, balls-to-the-wall because he knew it had to be done.
Personally, I thought he stopped believing in the prophecy some time ago, which, to me, makes that attitude all the more admirable, because he didn't think there would be any karmic reward. He did it because (at the risk of being violently corny) it was the right thing to do. That's why he's a champion.

Quote:
Looking back on Wes' death at work today, I realized something. It shows yet again how much bigger "Angel"'s balls are than "Buffy..."'s. In "Chosen" when they chose to kill off one of the group, they killed Anya. She was OK, but woopty-doo. It would've been like killing off Lorne. But what did the people at "Angel" do? They killed off the last remaining original member of the show other than Angel himself.

I'm trying not to look back on Wes' death, cause I just start getting all weepy again. I don't know if I'd be doing that if it had been anyone else, frankly, including Angel. And I agree -- Angel has always been a harder, darker, lonlier show than Buffy, and that's why I grew to like it more. Big brass testes, indeed.

Heh. I liked it so much I sigged it.

"Well personally, I kinda want to slay the dragon."

KNIBBLET

Friday, May 21, 2004 3:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Delia:
... when did Angel get to be 277? In Halloween, they said he was 18 in 1775, which would put his birth in 1757, and make him 247 in 2004. He said he was 243 in Earshot, which was 1999, which would make him 248 in 2004. Either way, where did the extra thirty years come from?

Personally, I think they're 70 years short of the figure. After all, he spent 100 years in a hell dimension. If Connor can be considered 20 instead of 3, then Angel gets those extra hundred years.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

DELIA

Friday, May 21, 2004 3:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Knibblet:
Quote:
Originally posted by Delia:
... when did Angel get to be 277? In Halloween, they said he was 18 in 1775, which would put his birth in 1757, and make him 247 in 2004. He said he was 243 in Earshot, which was 1999, which would make him 248 in 2004. Either way, where did the extra thirty years come from?

Personally, I think they're 70 years short of the figure. After all, he spent 100 years in a hell dimension. If Connor can be considered 20 instead of 3, then Angel gets those extra hundred years.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

Okay, but anyway you count it, he's not 277!

___________________________________________
WESLEY : Feng shui.
GUNN: Right. What's that mean again?
WESLEY: That people will believe anything.

KNIBBLET

Friday, May 21, 2004 4:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Delia:
Okay, but anyway you count it, he's not 277!

As long as I keep my checkbook balanced, I don't care about numbers

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

QUIXOTICONE

Friday, May 21, 2004 4:14 AM

Just got to watch it tonight (stupid local affiliate was always a day behind)...

Really felt it was a great ending - reflecting the darker flavor of the show & its theme of "Never give up the good fight"... especially in

Select to view spoiler:

Angel signing off on the Shanshu prophecy. He realizes he didn't need its "hope" for his humanity. He'd already *had* it - his ongoing crusade & that last scene facing down the insurmountable hordes is evidence of that.

Lots of great moments in there - many already pointed out, so I won't repeat 'em... just wanted to show my appreciation to Joss & Crew - thanks to all of you!

-QO-

Gonna miss ya, Whedonverse... don't stay gone too long, ya hear?

KUKOO

Friday, May 21, 2004 5:06 AM

One thing that bothers me about the Connor/Angel reunion is that not once since Connor got his memories back has he asked about Cordelia. This was a woman who he killed for and was ready to kill. The last time he saw her she was in a coma, and he doesn't think to ask if she ever came out of it?

RANGRBOB

Friday, May 21, 2004 5:11 AM

After watching the Lindsey death scene I was wondering if perhaps that is how Josh felt when he found out he was being cancled by the WB. From what I understand it too came out of nowhere and I can see him thinking. You, You killed my show a low rated network... Angel (the character and his development or actor) is suppose to decide when the series dies not some flunky tv exec.)

Just a thought

ARDEN

Friday, May 21, 2004 6:24 AM

I just watched this one (TIVO'd), and though I'm not a faithful Angel watcher I decided to see how it all came out.

The thing I loved most (besides the Firefly reference in Spike's "Wishes and horses" line) was how willing Joss was to let the series end open like that to reinforce the theme. I think it was truly brave to not necessarily wrap everything up, but instead give us an open ending that instead reminds us that the story of Angel is about how the good fight never ends, and that there's nothing more noble than going down fighting for a good cause. To me, it says what the show truly meant: That Angel is a hero, a Champion, because he can't win but refuses to give up (as he said in his famous speech). He is owed as much or more than anyone in the world, but instead is driven to redemption.

To me, it shows that a series was truly great art when the theme is ultimately more important than the plot, and a pseudo-cliffhanger that reminds us what the show means is the way it is ended.

Bravo, cast and crew of Angel.

You got a wife? All I got is that dumbass stick sounds like it's raining.

AMANDA4U

Friday, May 21, 2004 7:11 AM

What about when Buffy put Angel in the hell dimension? Could that be where he gained those years? And even though Eve was evil, I liked what she said when Angel told he to get out of the building, after she found out that he had Lindsey killed. But now I can't remember it. And I loved the mix of tears and laughter, I wouldn't have the ending any other way. But let's put some of the anger on UPN for not giving Angel a proper last season, like they did with Buffy. Boo to the WB for bowing to conformity, and boo to UPN for not having the balls to take a stand for good (Joss Wheadon)instead of evil (network sock puppets). Okay, now that I got that out, I can focus on the big damn movie!

To Jayne-The box dropping man ape gone wrong thing.

WHOODAHN

Friday, May 21, 2004 10:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Davco92:
Hmmm...FOX+WB...
2 by 2, hands of blue...

Hmmmmm....

FoxFrog & Hart?

"I ain't crazy and I've got papers to prove it"

SHADOWVESSEL

Friday, May 21, 2004 10:21 PM

Hell yeah!

I just went back and watched "Chosen" from Buffy again and got pissed off at WB all over again. Extra pissed, actually. Buffy the Vampire Slayer had a whole freakin' season to prepare for the end. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, apparently, was given a MUCH bigger budget for its finale. Technically speaking, the UPN gave Joss all that. But the WB should've taken its cue and done the same thing. You gotta hand it to the team at Mutant Enemy, though. They took what they had and they gave us something memoriable.

"Yes, thank you from everyone at the WB. We've loved having you bent over and not complaining about us not even lubing first."

More room for REALITY FKING TV!?!?!

Someone should be hurt. Physically. And also forced to watch the retarded-ass reality programming they're trying to make so much room for.

(Gorramn Double Post)
"I'll be in my bunk."

MRSKBORG

Sunday, May 23, 2004 11:02 AM

Now having watched it a second time, just to get it all clear in my head. Way to go Joss! That was one hell of a season finale.

I didn't see that whole Lorne - Lindsay thing coming but it was so good, and the look of shock on Lindsays face I had to chuckle you now.

I loved Spikes poetry rendition. WoW
I loved the Wes - Illyria/Fred story, even at the end when it made me cry.

And the last Line. Thats the way to end the season and the series, but just enough that if they want to make a film or whatever theyve got enought to work with.